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| DocScrutinizer05 | this simply means: don't use maemo-thumb, it's not going to get any more maintenance | 00:31 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | I tried for quite some time now to come up with any other interpretation | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw not like we discussed this maemo extras thumb repo thing the first time today | 00:34 |
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| * Wizzup has all his n900s on thumb | 01:03 | |
| Wizzup | Post rejected. As a new member, you are only allowed to post a minimum number of links in your post. Hit the back button on your web browser and edit your post. Thanks. | 01:13 |
| Wizzup | eh. | 01:13 |
| Wizzup | joys of using a new account | 01:13 |
| Wizzup | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1520074#post1520074 | 01:22 |
| Maxdamantus | are the thumb issues present in mainline kernels? | 01:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: *new* account?? what the heck...? | 01:43 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: I couldn't figure out what address I used for my old one | 01:43 |
| Wizzup | I had a username and password written in my password files, but they didn't work | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ugh, ask maintainer! | 01:44 |
| Wizzup | So I gave up and didn't want to postpone writing the post | 01:44 |
| Wizzup | Yeah, I will, but it's not top priority atm :) | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kudos for post (only read first 2 lines so far) | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wouldn't that thread rather belong to http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58 ? | 01:45 |
| Wizzup | I promised to write it some time ago, and there's still a lot to do, but it's a good start, I hope | 01:45 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: could be, but in the end it may also run on things other than the neo900 | 01:46 |
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| Wizzup | and right now it's kind of hard to test on the neo900 :) so we use allwinner tablets or n900 or other | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NeoFremantle is not about Neo900 | 01:46 |
| Wizzup | ah, sorry. | 01:46 |
| Wizzup | Yes, then probably that may be a better place. | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I can't move threads *into* 'my' subfora | 01:47 |
| Wizzup | I need to get some sleep, let's see if we can get it moved tomorrow or so (some redirect for a bit would be nice) | 01:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope you can't, only your own posts | 01:49 |
| Wizzup | yeah, I meant asking someone | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | redirect is always implied | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | automatically | 01:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for forum admins it's a matter of literally 3 clicks to move a thread around | 01:50 |
| Wizzup | ack | 01:50 |
| Wizzup | I need to get some sleep first :-) | 01:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you may *absue' the 'report post' feature | 01:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "please move this thread to http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58" - done | 01:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) | 01:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | will automatically show up on the task list of those who are in charge | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, maybe you as a 'new user' would not have the "report post" button enabled? | 01:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | if there's no such button uper right of every post, I can do that on your behalf | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only will do so when I got sth to quote with a clear request to do so | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise I'd receive bashing for egoistic motivations for that | 01:55 |
| Wizzup | I'll try to do it tomorrow. | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | np, just offering to help | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | repost the line above and I'll copy it to the requester ;-) | 01:56 |
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| KotCzarny | having packages to depend on thumb target enabler is nice idea, but how would that react to having same package compiled for thumb and nonthumb? | 08:02 |
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| sicelo | i do agree with FMG that N900 is not going to last forever ... just it is painful to think of the possibility that the N900 could be abandoned :( | 09:23 |
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| KotCzarny | i have 2 spares | 09:26 |
| KotCzarny | and since it fullfills my phoning needs its not going away anytime soon | 09:26 |
| KotCzarny | (and has oscp, of course) | 09:27 |
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| sicelo | :) | 09:37 |
| deepy | sicelo: have you seen the neo900? | 09:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sicelo: it's not even the point of any discussion that literally nothing lasts forever. Nevertheless it's a tad bewildering when the author of thumb says it's not worth supporting it any longer | 09:41 |
| sicelo | Neo900 yes I saw it .. but I can't afford anything, not even the AllWinner tablets | 09:41 |
| sicelo | i support Neo project of course | 09:43 |
| KotCzarny | witha a bumper sticker? ;) | 09:43 |
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| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: well, the only reason behind thumb is save ressources on a low-memory device | 09:44 |
| bencoh | s/only/main/ | 09:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 09:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thumb is the real armel, while maemo's armel is crippled since it doesn't allow thumb | 09:45 |
| bencoh | that's not the point... | 09:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and since the kernel patch needed for N900 OMAP-crap already exists, the maemo-extras-thumb repo is the one that really has a future, while the maemo-extras repo is the one that eventually gets obsolete | 09:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thus declaring thumb an obsolete effort makes zilch sense to me | 09:47 |
| sicelo | Apple time! :) | 09:50 |
| sicelo | haha | 09:50 |
| bencoh | krkr | 09:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or let me put it very simple and obvious: when I'd be going to install maemo on a BeagleBoard-xM or a Pyra or a Neo900, I'd for sure use a maemo-extras-thumb and CSSU-thumb instead of the plain maemo, since why would I want to forbid thumb code on all those platforms? | 10:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in CSSU-thumb maybe the kernel patch gets obsolete eventually. In maemo-extras only those apps get obsolete for which a maemo-extras-thumb build exists. All apps in maemo-extras-thumb and the apps in maemo-extras that have no thumb build will _not_ get obsolete before no OMAP device around anymore | 10:10 |
| jonwil | I will continue to use my N900 until one of 3 things happens:1.It breaks in a way that cant be fixed 2.My carrier makes a change that prevents me from continuing to use the N900 anymore or 3.I am able to afford and justify something to replace it that is genuinely better (right now I cant justify a Neo900 because there is no point replacing a perfectly good N900) | 10:11 |
| jonwil | i.e. you can have my N900 when you pry it from my cold dead hands :) | 10:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 10:12 |
| jonwil | I wouldn't use something like a crApple iFail or a Galaxy even if someone gave me one for free | 10:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | welcome to the club | 10:13 |
| KotCzarny | i wouldnt mind if someone remade the case of n900 into better kb one (similar to 5510) | 10:14 |
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| MoeIcenowy | is Neo900 stlil alive... | 10:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, why not? | 10:21 |
| jonwil | Another benefit of the N900 is that so few people use it that the virus writers aren't going to bother writing viruses for it and will focus on the popular platforms (iPhone, Android, Windows, OSX, linux servers) | 10:22 |
| jonwil | although that doesn't mean much given how weak the security is | 10:23 |
| KotCzarny | security by obscuruty is a poor one | 10:23 |
| deepy | Iäm pretty sure in reality they have the shotgun approach | 10:23 |
| KotCzarny | and old linux kernel/libs almost ensures working sploits | 10:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a good reasoning, and I follow it in a number of areas. E.g. my main browser still is Konqueror | 10:23 |
| jonwil | writing viruses doesn't come cheap | 10:24 |
| jonwil | and I doubt they are going to spend the money to write a virus for an outdated little-used phone platform when that same money could generate a lot more infections on a Windows platform | 10:24 |
| jonwil | or an iPhone platform | 10:24 |
| jonwil | that doesn't mean improving the security of the N900 isn't a good idea (it is) | 10:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | improving security is always a good idea... as long as it's not done ala Aegis or Apple | 10:27 |
| jonwil | Finding a way to get the newest TLS standards (and newest cipher suites) into the N900 microb browser is definatly something I want to see happen (although I lack the skills and knowledge to actually help with it) | 10:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: did you look into the kbd blob thingie in maemo? | 10:28 |
| jonwil | which kbd blob? | 10:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the one that handles the sticky Fn and shift keys and all that stuff | 10:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and thr symbol vkbd | 10:29 |
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| jonwil | I dont know which package handles all that | 10:30 |
| Maxdamantus | Which bit about Apple is bad? The fact that Apple has to sign the OS at the time of installation, or the fact that applications are proerly sandboxed? | 10:30 |
| jonwil | but no, I dont have any reverse engineering going on of any of the remaining closed-source blobs | 10:30 |
| * Maxdamantus likes the latter thing, not the former thing. | 10:30 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we spotted it a month or two ago | 10:31 |
| KotCzarny | jonwil: problem is you wouldnt have to write new, just use any of combo sploits, and most likely it will work | 10:31 |
| jonwil | The issue I have with Apple is that you need to pay money to be able to write and distribute apps for the devices, something you dont need to do for most distribution platforms/. | 10:32 |
| jonwil | You dont need to pay money to be on the Android store | 10:33 |
| jonwil | or the Amazon store | 10:33 |
| jonwil | or the Windows store | 10:33 |
| Maxdamantus | Yeah, that's related to why Apple has to sign the OS at installation. | 10:33 |
| Wizzup | jonwil, KotCzarny, did you see this thread? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1520078#post1520078 | 10:33 |
| KotCzarny | wizzup: yup, but im hacking something else atm | 10:35 |
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| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: regarding vkbd on maemo, I'd tend to thing we should just move away from it and try integrating ibus | 10:36 |
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| Wizzup | jonwil: likely related to your thread here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93889 | 10:36 |
| jonwil | The biggest issue with Fremantle-on-new-hardware right now is the incomplete PulseAudio blobs | 10:37 |
| jonwil | also the cellular daemons | 10:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2010/07/15/sending-smses-with-empathy-and-telepathy-ring/ | 10:38 |
| Maxdamantus | Why do you need the PulseAudio blobs for non-N900 hardware? | 10:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aiui that's the perfect API spec for all such "cellular daemons" we'd need for another modem | 10:40 |
| jonwil | For the Neo900 we need them | 10:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except audio | 10:40 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: right, but I don't think the porting efforts are at that point yet, at least the porting efforts I am thinking of | 10:40 |
| jonwil | since we are planning to make the Neo900 run the same Fremantle software stack | 10:40 |
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| Wizzup | jonwil: well... | 10:40 |
| KotCzarny | can pa blobs be used on mainline kernel or they are tied to specific version? | 10:40 |
| Wizzup | KotCzarny: you can use old PA on new kernel | 10:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: this is about the fremantle software stack, maemo fremantle is using telepathy-ring | 10:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afaik | 10:41 |
| jonwil | yes I know | 10:41 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: I think some recent efforts seem to be on getting h-d and other components based upon devuan/debian, and move whatever is worth keeping there | 10:41 |
| Wizzup | we may still be able to run the old PA on top of that | 10:41 |
| Wizzup | but for other devices, we may not need the PA modules, and even so, they *can* be REed | 10:41 |
| KotCzarny | wizzup, or make it selectable on install | 10:42 |
| jonwil | Yes the PA blobs can be REd | 10:42 |
| Wizzup | but right now I am not sure if that's the main priority | 10:42 |
| jonwil | its just that no-one with the needed skills has shown any interest in finishing the work. | 10:42 |
| Wizzup | as in, once we get to the point where we can run devuan with maemo settings and some other programs, like xterm, and some wifi, on my tablet, (and then consequently, on the n900 again), I'd look into it | 10:42 |
| jonwil | There seem to be several different related goals here: | 10:43 |
| jonwil | First is being able to upgrade the N900 Fremantle software stack so its more modern and replacing outdated versions of things with new things (e.g. can we replace microb with a non-sucky browser?) | 10:44 |
| Wizzup | (quick interjection - I am interested in many maemo porting efforts, just not one that pours a lot of effort but does not contribute to the end goal, e.g. modern sw stack) | 10:44 |
| jonwil | This may also tie into CSSU and the goal of improving the Fremantle stack | 10:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PA is no problem anymore I'd think. The remaining non-REed PA blobs are utterly not-needed for another modem. xprot is needed to avoid nuking your speakers in N900 when you're dense enough to pump up the volume and wait till magic blue smoke escapes | 10:45 |
| Wizzup | freemangordon: I found this post, too - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?s=f198d88a1d3da561bbfec0ccc2ae2e84&t=91308&page=17 | 10:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the PA-nokia-speech(?) is improving quality of voice calls but not exactly mandatory even for N900, it can get replaced by a "cat" dummy | 10:45 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: so, my 'personal goal' here would be to get whatever is useful from fremantle, and 'free' it from the old maemo distro, and make it run on a modern base, e.g. devuan/debian. And then, make *that* run on the n900 again | 10:46 |
| Wizzup | While in the process, ensuring it's also viable for other things -- tablets (for usage), qemu images (for testing), etc | 10:46 |
| Wizzup | at any point more things from fremantle can be ported over, of course | 10:47 |
| Wizzup | and one can even imagine a full chroot-kind setup (if required) with maemo compat layers where that would be required for older 'apps' | 10:47 |
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| Wizzup | I'm just not interested in very old kernels and sw, that is even more my beef than an aging browser, but I'm sure the things are inherently related | 10:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: where would you stop on such effort? OHM? PA? alsaped? mce? calendar? | 10:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((nherently related)) yes, that's exactly the point | 10:49 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: well, I would aim for base bones first. and then port over anythign that is deemed useful | 10:50 |
| Wizzup | note that you can always port over more | 10:50 |
| Wizzup | I would likely stop when it comes to wifi-specific daemons, for example | 10:50 |
| Wizzup | Since they serve no purpose outside of fremantle and only cause headaches for devuan, for example | 10:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or would that "compatibility layer" be xephyr on wayland for running hildon-desktop in a window of debian then? | 10:51 |
| Wizzup | Where one can easily use any of the other wifi daemons (wpa_supplicant + some frontend) | 10:51 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: the compatibility layer I meant could be some hack to export the same dbus interfaces, and a chroot with old maemo rootfs + x forwarding over unix socket | 10:52 |
| Wizzup | s/base bones/bare bones/ | 10:52 |
| jonwil | I think this DefCon video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cgtr7VW7gY has some interesting ideas that might help us out | 10:52 |
| Wizzup | so clearly, applications that directly interface with the closed wifi daemon won't work anymore | 10:52 |
| Wizzup | but that's likely not a problem :) | 10:53 |
| Maxdamantus | X would just be handled by having /tmp/.X11-unix bind-mounted; don't need forwarding. | 10:53 |
| Wizzup | Maxdamantus: yeah, that is what I meant, but sure | 10:53 |
| Wizzup | wrong terminology | 10:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (wifi) some savvy devel, (was it timeless? crashndie?) sighed loudly "I wish Nokia had opensourced ICD!! It's so much better than any of the other connection managers existing" | 10:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err prolly not ICD | 10:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or yes? | 10:53 |
| jonwil | With the PulseAudio blobs we could take the secret sauce algos (i.e. the bits that make voice sound good) and have our own pulseaudio-blah plugin just call into pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice and call the secret bits. | 10:54 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: in all honesty, it's probably best to surrender here and use networkmanager | 10:54 |
| * Maxdamantus would be happy enough just using wpa_supplicant. | 10:54 | |
| Wizzup | jonwil: to work around abi problems with newer PA? | 10:54 |
| KotCzarny | i wholeheartedly hate nm | 10:54 |
| Wizzup | KotCzarny: me too | 10:54 |
| Wizzup | but it might offer a simple dbus interface to wifi | 10:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: why a chroot? | 10:54 |
| Wizzup | idk, ok, maybe nm is not the best | 10:54 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: if you want to use the old pkg managers as well. it may work with ld_library_path and so, but the exact details don't matter IMHO | 10:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 10:55 |
| Maxdamantus | DocScrutinizer05: because it's there to handle legacy stuff that hasn't been installed as part of a newer distribution. | 10:55 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: (at this point) | 10:55 |
| Wizzup | Maxdamantus: right, but I recall that DocScrutinizer05 doesn't like using chroots to prevent mixing old and new libs | 10:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see need for *any* of that | 10:55 |
| jonwil | to work around both ABI issues if we move to a newer PA and to work around the need to replace some things in pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice (e.g. the bits that talk cellular call audio) and keep using the bits we haven't yet cloned from the Nokia blob | 10:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo IS devuan | 10:55 |
| Wizzup | so very soon we'll be talking about SONAMEs | 10:55 |
| Wizzup | :p | 10:55 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: yeah | 10:56 |
| jonwil | I actually wrote a tool to rip functions out of a binary into an obj file myself for a totally different project (this was for Windows PE files and Windows COFF obj files) | 10:56 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: if that doesn't give trouble with mixing glibc versions in the same process | 10:56 |
| jonwil | But whats in that video (talking about re-using bits of binaries on Windows) | 10:57 |
| jonwil | I mean on linux | 10:57 |
| jonwil | makes sense | 10:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | old and new libs can easily coexist in linux, unless somebody completely messed up | 10:57 |
| bencoh | err | 10:57 |
| bencoh | it "can" yeah | 10:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh Wizzup beat me to it | 10:58 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: right, but to prevent conflicts and packages installing over other pkgs, isolation may be easier, not to mention that it may be easy/doable at all to merge the package managers, and so on | 10:58 |
| jonwil | Heck we could potentially even do what I am doing on Windows and rip the bits we still need out of the shared library into a static obj file that gets linked into our shared lib. | 10:58 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: still, if the modules are in the same process, old/new glibc may mess you over | 10:58 |
| Wizzup | e.g. new PA want new glibc, binary old PA wants old glibc | 10:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | huh? | 10:59 |
| Wizzup | can't mix that in one process | 10:59 |
| bencoh | Wizzup: glibc? how comes? | 10:59 |
| jonwil | I am sure you can load multiple versions of glibc into a single process | 10:59 |
| Wizzup | uh... are you? OK | 10:59 |
| Wizzup | I wasn't so sure about that | 10:59 |
| Wizzup | Which one will set up the signal handlers, then ;-) | 10:59 |
| Wizzup | etc | 10:59 |
| bencoh | I'm pretty sure it'd be a freaking mess ;) | 11:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why would you want old PA? | 11:00 |
| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: because of old nokia modules I guess | 11:00 |
| Wizzup | for n900 modem voice/audio quality | 11:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no need | 11:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also I understood you're focusing on NON-N900 target platforms more than on N900 | 11:01 |
| KotCzarny | tbh, this is #maemo, not #n900 ;) | 11:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and as elaborated above those modules will be mostly pointless on any other platform with another modem | 11:02 |
| KotCzarny | it only happens that only/mainly maemo runs on n900 nowadays | 11:02 |
| Wizzup | the end goal is to have it running on the n900 as well, of course | 11:04 |
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| Wizzup | but we don't need burden every platform with old PA blobs for that. | 11:04 |
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| jonwil | In any case if/when we want the secret bits for the Neo900 FPTF project (or otherwise want them) there are ways we can get at them that dont require reverse engineering them completly. | 11:06 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm pretty sure it won't just load multiple versions of glibc. | 11:06 |
| Maxdamantus | ie, ld-linux won't do that for you. | 11:06 |
| bencoh | pretty sure as well | 11:06 |
| Maxdamantus | you can of course use dlopen/dlsym yourself to load separate instances. | 11:06 |
| jonwil | And if we did something similar to what I am doing on Windows, we could make it completly independent of libc versions as well through stubs. | 11:07 |
| bencoh | which prolly won't work properly because part of the glibc functions will be looking for global resources | 11:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: let me tell you a story about a similar project called OM. They based the OS on Aegstrom / Openembedded and the result was that literally *everything* you are used to from a normal linux got ripped out since "for embedded you don't need users or authentication or file owners/permissions or...". Then they reinvented the wheel for arain everything except a lot of stuff that didn't get added til today. E.G users, so SHR afaik still | 11:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | runs everything as root. The parallels I see here are: why would you want to make piecemeal with porting only a 5% bare bones core stuff to e.g. Devuan, when it's so much simpler to port Devuan core stuff to maemo? | 11:08 |
| bencoh | wtf? | 11:10 |
| bencoh | what does that even mean, porting devuan core stuff to maemo? | 11:10 |
| jonwil | I am still getting nowhere with my entry for the coding contest :( | 11:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what does "port maemo to another disrtro" mean? maemo IS a distro | 11:11 |
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| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: that's why they/we only talk about porting maemo bits to <insert distro here> | 11:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I fail to see the purpose | 11:13 |
| bencoh | have a maemo-like phone-friendly environment on top of a modern ecosystem? | 11:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what the heck is the difference between Devuan and maemo 2ecosystem"? | 11:14 |
| bencoh | you've always been focusing on old apps compatibility (sw wise) and n900 droppin replacement (hw wise), but ... | 11:14 |
| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: as it stands the two are just "incompatible", ie welcome to dependency hell | 11:15 |
| bencoh | so I have to "rebase" your ecosystem in some way | 11:16 |
| bencoh | s/I/you/ | 11:16 |
| KotCzarny | isnt opensource about ability to recompile packages if need arise? | 11:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | new kernel? FMG is pretty much there - on maemo! New glib? I think that's projected in CSSU since ages, and yes *there* we might need LD_PRELOAD for old apps. App Manager? I think Devuan also uses apt | 11:17 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: different end goals. | 11:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so you don't want to port maemo, you want to change it | 11:17 |
| Wizzup | freedom: I want the fremantle stack (the useful) parts available for other distros, not just stuck to maemo. 2) Maintenance - OUTSOURCE AS MUCH AS WE CAN - by piggybacking on the back of other distros | 11:18 |
| Wizzup | Only this way we can ensure that we will keep a modern base | 11:18 |
| Wizzup | This also means porting to gtk3, qt5, whatever is out there | 11:18 |
| Wizzup | I don't see any point in taking whatever 'devuan core' is and putting it back into maemo | 11:18 |
| Wizzup | that will become, I think, an unmaintanble mess, which leads to ... no maintainers | 11:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the end result of your approach is exactly the same as mine | 11:19 |
| Wizzup | so we are miscommunicating? | 11:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously | 11:19 |
| bencoh | :] | 11:20 |
| Wizzup | :) | 11:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just say when you completed your approach that won't be Devuan anymore, that will be maemo | 11:20 |
| Wizzup | well, that's fine | 11:20 |
| Maxdamantus | When the core changes, just tell N900 users to download and run this script to automatically update necessary configurations and move programs from /bin to /usr/bin: http://maemo.org/devuan-patch-99215.sh | 11:20 |
| bencoh | I don't see why it wouldn't be maemo, but yeah, that's fine | 11:20 |
| Wizzup | as long as people on a devuan can install it with some apt repo && apt-get install | 11:20 |
| bencoh | s/maemo/devuan/ wtf brain | 11:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unless you indeed want to kicj as many maemo heritage as possible for using more generic crap | 11:21 |
| bencoh | ? | 11:21 |
| Wizzup | My preference would be for distro-supported solutions (and sw that is being supported still), and doesn't cause too much headache | 11:21 |
| KotCzarny | kicking pa crap wouldnt be bad | 11:21 |
| Wizzup | e.g. porting the old closed source wifi daemon seems like a no-no | 11:21 |
| Wizzup | but when it comes to most other bits, keeping them seems sensible | 11:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's no wifi daemon in maemo, that's the Internet Connection Daemon and manages all sorts of connectivity | 11:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and of course you can replace it by a feature-compatible other solution | 11:23 |
| Wizzup | I think we're really on the same pag | 11:24 |
| Wizzup | e | 11:24 |
| Wizzup | we can work out what to port and what not to port when it's the time to make decisions about that, or we can always decide to port more stuff later | 11:24 |
| Wizzup | I really have to start work now, though. Back later | 11:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I know of at least one user in here who nuked ICD and used ifup/ifdown manually. He complained about maemo apps not noticing when a new connection got established and when it got torn down, though | 11:25 |
| Wizzup | networkmanager likely has a similar dbus api ;-) | 11:25 |
| Wizzup | *cough* but yeah | 11:25 |
| Wizzup | to be honest if we can a major part of the stack running on a modern base, I'm sure these things will kind of work out | 11:26 |
| Wizzup | we can start with ifup/ifdown and plain wpa_supplicant, and work from there | 11:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | my approach is it's way easier to port the whole bunch at once and see what doesn't work, while profiting from the parts that _do_ work since they are highly entangled as you already stated yourself | 11:27 |
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| bencoh | Wizzup: network-manager *cough*cough* :) | 11:27 |
| bencoh | but yeah, agree with you | 11:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why try to make maemo apps run on icewm or whatever when porting H-D is a nobrainer | 11:28 |
| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: huh? | 11:28 |
| KotCzarny | h-d is finger/touch friendly | 11:28 |
| KotCzarny | it makes sense to port it | 11:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | every single bit you "port later" will make another 5 bits fail and you need to mess around to make them work again without the missing bit | 11:29 |
| bencoh | some of those bits just aren't trivial to port | 11:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you'll notice that when you try | 11:30 |
| bencoh | or are closedsource, thus depending on old ABI no longer compatible with modern libs | 11:30 |
| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: I think they're already working on it and already noticed ... | 11:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn't make sense to start with "let's throw a dice which bit to port this week and try to make it work" | 11:31 |
| bencoh | meh | 11:31 |
| bencoh | anyway I'm not working on this, I have no word on this topic tbh | 11:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's literally already starting with PID1 | 11:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I pushed so hard for Devuan since I don't know of another distro that would allow to keep maemo's init system | 11:34 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: h-d is the first thing that is ported | 11:34 |
| Wizzup | I'm not sure why you'd want to make maemo init-system specific though | 11:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | because the init system does a friggin lot for usability of the whole device | 11:35 |
| Wizzup | that just sounds a bit like a platitude, but yeah, uh ... going for upstart with devuan seems like ... weird? | 11:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a reason maemo uses busybox and preinit script instead of e.g. systemd | 11:36 |
| Wizzup | I don't think, I am not interested in this as long as most things not relying on init aren't yet ported. | 11:36 |
| Wizzup | bencoh: why not work on it? :) | 11:37 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: a part of making the 'maintenance' easier is to work with the distros / modern libs, not against them, so I don't think it makes sense to bring over every API if the only maintainers of it are ... we | 11:37 |
| Wizzup | for some things it makes perfect sense, but I am not so sure if sysvinit / openrc aren't also perfectly capable of doing the same job | 11:38 |
| Wizzup | but again, I don't think that's important right now | 11:38 |
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| KotCzarny | dont forget to k.i.s.s. | 11:39 |
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| KotCzarny | then any porting to another distro wouldnt be hard | 11:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure they are capable... when you ADAPT them to the specific phone-embedded needs | 11:40 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: I am ignorant on how useful upstart is for n900/fremantle/maemo, so I will have to learn on to go, but for now I -personally- don't think it makes sense to only start upstart | 11:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise you will suffer a 4 minutes boot time with no option for 911 calls, no device lock, no... you name it | 11:40 |
| Wizzup | As I said, there are other uses for hildon, beyond the n900 | 11:41 |
| Wizzup | well, for tablets that is likely not an issue | 11:41 |
| Wizzup | and it's a huge burden for someone just 'wanted to get the hildon desktop' to have to get upstart, which is completely dead, not supported by any distro, and so on | 11:41 |
| KotCzarny | right now n900 uses upstart and boot time is long, so i dont see the rant point | 11:41 |
| Wizzup | essentially that's a very deep lock-in to a specific distro | 11:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not interested in tablets and a maemo not useful for a phone anymore | 11:41 |
| KotCzarny | to have emergency os would be a must for such thing | 11:42 |
| KotCzarny | and in such rescue/emergency ramdisk one wouldnt have to stick to things that are on rootfs | 11:42 |
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| Wizzup | I can't think of any technical reason to lock down to an old unsupported initsystem. I would say: go generic, and then specialise. Not: stay locked within a mostly deprecated specialised corner | 11:44 |
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| Wizzup | but really, I think much of this is of no problem at this point | 11:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what makes you think you couldn't replace upstart by wahtever you want, LATER? and *start* with porting as much as possible, to make as much as possible have an environment where it actually works since e.g. the initscripts are 'just working'? | 11:45 |
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| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: very simple. because you can boot devuan, apt-get install maemo packages | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | and bring up the ui | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | make the wifi work | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | test audio | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | port over other applications | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | calendar stuff, etc | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | and only then worry about making the init specific to a phone | 11:47 |
| Wizzup | the first part is porting it all to the new libs | 11:48 |
| Wizzup | and testing individual pieces | 11:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the decision between (what I started on, with my anecdote about OM) "ripping all out to `start simple´ and then try to add one by one to the piecemeal" and "port everything and see what simply works and does NOT cause trouble and maintenance burden, and LATER replace one by one with new stuff and give it love until the new replacement really works in the way the old did" is not something for later | 11:49 |
| Wizzup | I'm sure it causes trouble, but it also causes devs to *understand* the API and decide if it makes sense to keep them | 11:49 |
| Wizzup | and really, I think devuan already works right now | 11:49 |
| Wizzup | I don't see any other practical way of porting in the first place | 11:50 |
| Wizzup | what do you suggest? | 11:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I suggest to insstall all maemo stuff over Devuan, basically | 11:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not to try male one particular bit work in an environment that's not maemo | 11:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | make* | 11:51 |
| Wizzup | but you will still have to port all those things | 11:51 |
| Wizzup | and once they are ported, you are free to do that, right? | 11:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | port? | 11:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | define "port" | 11:52 |
| Wizzup | make it work with gtk3, new glibc, new openssl | 11:52 |
| Wizzup | (and soforth) | 11:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why GTK3?? | 11:52 |
| Wizzup | because it is actually getting updates | 11:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 11:52 |
| Wizzup | and to get rid of the gtk-specific patches | 11:52 |
| Wizzup | see https://github.com/fremantle-gtk3 | 11:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see that leading *anywhere* | 11:53 |
| Wizzup | well, h-d is already running | 11:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're not porting maemo, you want to come up with a whole new OS, much like back on Harmattan | 11:54 |
| Wizzup | hey, uhm | 11:54 |
| Wizzup | It's not my idea per se | 11:54 |
| Wizzup | I'm just trying to unify goals and move fremantle/maemo/hildon forward | 11:54 |
| Wizzup | I clearly seem to be failing, at least partially | 11:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and - considering how long it took Fremantle to become mature, and useful and how many devels were involved, and how 'well' meego went - I don't think this will result in anything tangible in the next maybe 5 years | 11:56 |
| Wizzup | I hope for a more bright future. Simply being able to launch applications, having hildon-desktop, some of the settings, the calendar is already a nice start | 11:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | forget about calendar, it's nonfree and you *never* will port it to GTK3 | 11:57 |
| Wizzup | I thought that was already happening | 11:58 |
| Wizzup | anyhow, it's not impossible to take shortcuts and use gtk2 as well in some places. | 11:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now we're talking | 11:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 11:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what I suggest is basically just to take as many 'shortcuts' as possible and then kill them one by one and replace them with decent solutions | 11:59 |
| Wizzup | we'll have to strike some balance | 12:00 |
| Wizzup | I have no clear overview -at all- | 12:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course | 12:00 |
| Wizzup | (yet) | 12:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as long as the approach is common sense and agreed upon, that's negligible detaols :-) | 12:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the balance will come naturally during "porting" | 12:02 |
| Wizzup | I think so too! | 12:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and i'm rather optimistic that the immanent laziness of all devels (which is a virtue as we all know) will automatically result in my 2take as many shortcuts as possible" approach in the end. I just hope that *eventually* we will get rid of all those shortcuts and have a clean shiny new maemo based on Devuan | 12:04 |
| Wizzup | :) | 12:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and heck, if we actually need a chroot for the dialer crap, so what? | 12:07 |
| Wizzup | yep | 12:07 |
| luke-jr | kill gtk3 | 12:07 |
| luke-jr | kill gtk | 12:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe that's actually a viable approach: male one "huge" chroot for *all* fremantle (from init to PA to dialer and ICD) under Devuan, then one by one try moving programs out of the charoot and run in native Devuan | 12:10 |
| Wizzup | luke-jr: aloha - if you want to help out - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1520077#post1520077 | 12:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/male/make/ | 12:10 |
| luke-jr | Wizzup: I don't. | 12:10 |
| Wizzup | luke-jr: in the end the packages can be wrapped in ebuilds as well, resulting in a maemo-meta ebuild | 12:10 |
| luke-jr | I consider Maemo dead. | 12:11 |
| Wizzup | did you read the post, or? | 12:11 |
| luke-jr | probably will /part this channel some month soon. | 12:11 |
| Wizzup | ... :) | 12:11 |
| KotCzarny | luke-jr: whats your new toy/de ? | 12:11 |
| luke-jr | KotCzarny: don't really have one yet. | 12:12 |
| luke-jr | but I also haven't touched N900 in months except putting it in my pocket. :x | 12:12 |
| KotCzarny | luke-jr: then dont consider maemo dead yet | 12:12 |
| luke-jr | I did install Gentoo on a GPD Win recently, but no battery charger driver :/ | 12:12 |
| luke-jr | nor audio nor touchscreen (but tbf, touchscreen didn't work in Windows either) | 12:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 12:13 |
| KotCzarny | you might consider putting fremantle on it, once it gets ported to devuan | 12:14 |
| KotCzarny | and that's why you should click wizzup's link | 12:14 |
| luke-jr | I hate GTK | 12:14 |
| luke-jr | what happened to Harmattan? | 12:15 |
| KotCzarny | who knows? who cares? | 12:15 |
| luke-jr | at least it was Qt | 12:15 |
| sicelo | luke-jr: prefer qt? | 12:15 |
| sicelo | ah | 12:15 |
| luke-jr | currently I am running KDE | 12:16 |
| Wizzup | (I also prefer qt, but gtk is def. better for now with porting) | 12:16 |
| Wizzup | also - afk :) | 12:16 |
| luke-jr | there wasn't really much I liked about Maemo. :x | 12:16 |
| luke-jr | probably just having the task switcher a single touch away, but anything can do that | 12:17 |
| sicelo | Apple! :) | 12:18 |
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| luke-jr | sicelo: die :< | 12:19 |
| sicelo | < luke-jr> probably just having the task switcher a single touch away, _but anything can do that_ | 12:19 |
| sicelo | ;) | 12:20 |
| sicelo | maybe getting an N900 was a bad decision | 12:23 |
| KotCzarny | nope. | 12:23 |
| KotCzarny | but tools should be chosen with tasks/preferences in mind | 12:23 |
| sicelo | if i'd never got it, most likely i wouldn't be finding fine Android phones to be junk :( | 12:24 |
| KotCzarny | they are not junk. more toys, eye candies | 12:25 |
| sicelo | yes, that | 12:25 |
| luke-jr | sicelo: what would I use besides N900? | 12:27 |
| * luke-jr wonders what he did before N810 | 12:27 | |
| KotCzarny | laptop? | 12:27 |
| KotCzarny | 3310 ? | 12:27 |
| luke-jr | pretty sure I had retired my C760 by then | 12:27 |
| sicelo | i've had an SGS4 for 2.5 months now ... once an Android flagship, hardware way better than N900 ... but i feel empty when using it ... my N900 is still the busiest device | 12:27 |
| luke-jr | now I'm wondering what I used my N900 for. | 12:28 |
| sicelo | what do you use now? | 12:29 |
| luke-jr | I don't usually leave home. | 12:29 |
| luke-jr | when I do these days, I play Pokemon Go on a Nexus 5X | 12:29 |
| sicelo | KotCzarny: freemangordon : how sustainable is this AllWinner A13 platform .. can we expect on-going support? or? | 12:30 |
| luke-jr | hm, I guess I used N900 waiting at doctor's offices | 12:31 |
| luke-jr | I don't go to them very often anymore. | 12:31 |
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| bencoh | luke-jr: we already discussed that, but I don't think your battery charger issue would be too difficult to solve (gpdwin) | 12:43 |
| bencoh | since we already found the spec | 12:44 |
| bencoh | it does look like it's a matter of a few i2c commands | 12:44 |
| luke-jr | bencoh: I'm not sure that's the spec :/ | 12:48 |
| luke-jr | the datasheet there DOES have a Linux driver | 12:48 |
| bencoh | I' quite sure it is | 12:48 |
| bencoh | luke-jr: which one? | 12:48 |
| luke-jr | AXP288 | 12:48 |
| bencoh | there is a platform driver, and you already have it tbh | 12:48 |
| luke-jr | https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88471#c63 seems relevant | 12:48 |
| povbot | Bug 88471: was not found. | 12:48 |
| bencoh | luke-jr: that's a gas gauge | 12:48 |
| bencoh | not a charger | 12:48 |
| KotCzarny | well, axp is also a charger | 12:49 |
| Wizzup | sicelo: allwinner a33 is just one series | 12:49 |
| KotCzarny | at least axp209 is one | 12:49 |
| Wizzup | sicelo: there's a community trying to support allwinner platforms | 12:49 |
| Wizzup | (e.g. MoeIcenowy has done a lot of work for the a33) | 12:49 |
| bencoh | yeah I was atalking about the driver, I dunno whether it controls the charger part ... but looking at the code, it might, actually | 12:49 |
| luke-jr | drivers/power/supply/axp288_charger.c | 12:50 |
| Wizzup | I don't know of any allwinner *phones*. But there are tablets with modems | 12:50 |
| KotCzarny | but it might use another device for battery | 12:50 |
| bencoh | luke-jr: maybe you just need to add a few line to your devicetree then | 12:50 |
| luke-jr | bencoh: I have no devicetree. ACPI. | 12:50 |
| bencoh | luke-jr: ah, I dont have that one here | 12:50 |
| bencoh | acpi? shit :D | 12:50 |
| bencoh | forgot about that | 12:50 |
| sicelo | Wizzup: i'm asking because ... if I was to 'invest' in some A13 tablet, and a few months later someone abandons the project ... | 12:50 |
| bencoh | then I dunno. maybe it's the same device with a different id. maybe it's completely unrelated. | 12:50 |
| Wizzup | sicelo: A33 tablet, not a13, I think | 12:50 |
| Wizzup | sicelo: support will likely stay, as it is in *mainline linux*, most of it | 12:51 |
| bencoh | luke-jr: but I'd try writing the few i2c registers we talked about and see if it starts charging | 12:51 |
| Wizzup | so that'll stay for the coming 10 years at least | 12:51 |
| Wizzup | but I don't think we're all moving to allwinner per se | 12:51 |
| Wizzup | It's just a good testing platform/target | 12:51 |
| KotCzarny | wizzup, unless it gets abandoned/obsoleted | 12:51 |
| KotCzarny | ;) | 12:51 |
| luke-jr | bencoh: already tried that the other day | 12:51 |
| luke-jr | got nowhere | 12:51 |
| Wizzup | KotCzarny: I don't think that is very likely | 12:51 |
| bencoh | ah ... :/ | 12:51 |
| bencoh | then I dunno. mybad. | 12:51 |
| Wizzup | sicelo: if you're lucky you can find a33 tablets for about 50 eur, but don't have too high expectations any time soon.. | 12:52 |
| Wizzup | if it's a serious investment for you, I'd wait it out a bit | 12:52 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo: allwinner has quite active dev community, most of the socs are supported nicely in mainline kernel,not by patches-for-one-version | 12:52 |
| KotCzarny | wizzup: you can find a33 for ~30-40usd | 12:52 |
| KotCzarny | but dont expect much of it/might be fake | 12:52 |
| Wizzup | KotCzarny: same for n900 :p (not making a point) | 12:53 |
| Wizzup | I got A33 tablets from local stores for 55EUR | 12:53 |
| Wizzup | that's the 1gb variant | 12:53 |
| Wizzup | 1GB* even | 12:53 |
| KotCzarny | wizzup: did you check if tis real 1GB ? | 12:53 |
| Wizzup | seems real. | 12:55 |
| Wizzup | http://wizzup.org/tablet.jpg | 12:55 |
| sicelo | here's to hoping Nokia/HMD make something hackable | 12:55 |
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| bencoh | sicelo: errr | 13:08 |
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| L29Ah | \o/ | 13:10 |
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| sicelo | likely they will not, of course :( | 13:13 |
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| sicelo | KotCzarny: there was a link with almost comprehensive a33 info you pasted a few days ago .. which one is it? | 13:17 |
| KotCzarny | https://linux-sunxi.org/Mainlining_Effort#Status_Matrix | 13:18 |
| KotCzarny | this one? | 13:18 |
| sicelo | seems so. yes. thanks | 13:18 |
| KotCzarny | whole wiki is a treasure trove of docs | 13:18 |
| L29Ah | 13:52:18]<KotCzarny> sicelo: allwinner has quite active dev community, most of the socs are supported nicely in mainline kernel,not by patches-for-one-version | 13:18 |
| L29Ah | i've failed to make nand work on A10 :/ | 13:18 |
| KotCzarny | useful even for other chips | 13:19 |
| KotCzarny | l29ah: nand is one of the subjects that are still not REd fully | 13:19 |
| L29Ah | allwinner is chinese crap like others, i suggest to look at the matrix before buying anything | 13:19 |
| KotCzarny | l29ah: yup, blobbed and closed, yet, cheap and with great community | 13:21 |
| L29Ah | yeah, devboards on recent socs are insanely cheap on aliexpress | 13:23 |
| KotCzarny | but get one without support and you have a cheap paperweight | 13:23 |
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| Wizzup | oloimex boards are nice | 13:29 |
| Wizzup | olimex* | 13:30 |
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| GoNeL | hi all! i'm not able to download maemo flasher in the tabletdev site because the site seems to be down, anyone can help me finding a server to download it? thanks! | 13:58 |
| KotCzarny | ~tabletsdev | 13:59 |
| KotCzarny | ~ping | 13:59 |
| KotCzarny | doh. bot down again | 13:59 |
| KotCzarny | https://linux-sunxi.org/Mainlining_Effort#Status_Matrix | 14:01 |
| KotCzarny | uh, not this one | 14:01 |
| KotCzarny | http://maemo.muarf.org/tablets-dev/nokia_N900/ | 14:01 |
| KotCzarny | and http://maemo.muarf.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads/ | 14:02 |
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| GoNeL | thanks KotCzarny | 14:23 |
| GoNeL | my n900 is not charging, i buy a new battery but stil not charging, the best option that i a+have is to flash it or is there anything that is possible to do? | 14:25 |
| luke-jr | GoNeL: maybe your USB port is broken? | 14:30 |
| KotCzarny | gonel, are you sure that battery is not discharged? | 14:30 |
| KotCzarny | do you have a known at-least-partially good one to test the device? | 14:31 |
| KotCzarny | and flasher will refuse to work if you dont have charged battery | 14:31 |
| bencoh | GoNeL: you can trying booting it with a different kernel/initrd before flashing it | 14:35 |
| GoNeL | yes i now that, the usb port is working, yesterday i bought a new baterry and it came with some charge so it worked, when i plug the cable ot star on reboots and yellow light blinks, then the screen gains light and a green light blinks and then it turns off | 14:36 |
| GoNeL | how can i boot with different kernel? | 14:37 |
| KotCzarny | hmm | 14:37 |
| bencoh | does it blink yellow or is it solid yellow? | 14:37 |
| KotCzarny | maybe you have flat bat? http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Kotczarny#.7Eflatbatrecover | 14:37 |
| GoNeL | blink | 14:37 |
| bencoh | and what do you mean by "it worked"? | 14:37 |
| GoNeL | the new battery, so it is not empty, so there were some charge to the n900 could charge | 14:38 |
| KotCzarny | but maybe you were playing with it and it got empty? | 14:38 |
| GoNeL | sorry my english.. | 14:39 |
| KotCzarny | was n900 working before (ie. you were using it) or its bought recently? | 14:39 |
| GoNeL | off course i played with it! i wass missing the buddy! :D but when i boot up i get it on charge in the same moment but it didn't start charging. | 14:40 |
| KotCzarny | do you have another device to charge the battery? | 14:40 |
| GoNeL | then i plug the cable off and rebbot, it gaves me a message 'n900 is not charging' after it boots up | 14:41 |
| GoNeL | i will to the store ask for tem to charge it, i dont have any other way | 14:41 |
| KotCzarny | try the link first | 14:41 |
| KotCzarny | observe the light | 14:41 |
| GoNeL | i have it since 2009, last year i was in angola and it start with this problem, now because i needed it again i bought the new battery and it works normaly so i supossed tha the proble was the old one, but it seems not.. | 14:43 |
| KotCzarny | might be broken usb port or cable | 14:46 |
| KotCzarny | or charger too | 14:46 |
| KotCzarny | i had my n900 acting up on bad cables | 14:46 |
| bencoh | if you suspect a broken usb port you should prolly try fixing it before it actually falls off the board | 14:47 |
| bencoh | you might want to make sure it is the issue before to star disassembling it though | 14:48 |
| GoNeL | i could try another ac adapter, from another brand than nokia? | 14:48 |
| KotCzarny | preferably some good one | 14:49 |
| KotCzarny | and at least 1A | 14:49 |
| GoNeL | the usb port was changed already in the past, i assume it is good, but i'm not sure | 14:49 |
| GoNeL | i ask that because in the link is says ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** | 14:50 |
| KotCzarny | that's just a safety wording | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | nokia did good hardware, now even with crapsung you can get crap. | 14:51 |
| sicelo | not just crap .. bombs :-) | 14:53 |
| GoNeL | ok because i have not mine here, i'm portuguese liveng in france an i didn't brought everything with me, i'm using adapters from apple hawei and wiko for the try, all 1A | 14:54 |
| KotCzarny | also, it might sense what charger is connected, nokia's one has its middle pins connected via resistor | 14:55 |
| KotCzarny | so use data cable for charging | 14:55 |
| bencoh | KotCzarny: that's not justa safety wording | 14:56 |
| bencoh | since wall charger (aka dumb charger) are supposed to short D+/D- | 14:57 |
| GoNeL | ok i'm doing it, if i plug it to the usb port fom my laptop it starts booting but no led light turns on | 14:57 |
| bencoh | otherwise n900 wont charge | 14:57 |
| KotCzarny | bencoh, n900 can use other chargers, not just original one | 14:57 |
| KotCzarny | bencoh, it might be meaningful to mention that data cable should be used, even with original charger | 14:58 |
| sicelo | bencho is right about the D+- short though ... so even a 1A charger will charge at low current if that short isn't in place | 14:59 |
| KotCzarny | sicelo, but problem is, would amber light turn off on such charger? | 14:59 |
| KotCzarny | or pulse? | 14:59 |
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| sicelo | forgot .. would possibly depend on how empty battery is? haven't used the non-Nokia chargers much | 15:01 |
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| bencoh | KotCzarny: in a normal state it wont work at all (not even slow charging - solid yellow) as far as I can tell | 15:21 |
| bencoh | (could be wrong though) | 15:21 |
| bencoh | in an empty battery state ... no idea | 15:21 |
| bencoh | (regarding dumb chargers that don't short D+/-) | 15:22 |
| bencoh | I personally use a samsung charger that does work properly. But not all of them do | 15:23 |
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| NotKit | does H-D work as 3D compositor on Maemo? | 18:14 |
| kerio | that's what it does yes | 18:16 |
| MoeIcenowy | my N900 do not like dedicated chargers :-( | 18:24 |
| MoeIcenowy | it can only be charged when connected to my laptop | 18:24 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: please, stop twisting my words re -thumb. In case it didn't become clear - I said months ago there will be no new cssu-thumb release until there is a new cssu maintainer, cssu-thumb follows cssu-testing and you know that. Making extras-thumb repo gains nothing IMO - it is the thumbified core components that make the difference, not xterm or pdf feader. Thus I see no value in making that ATM. | 18:33 |
| freemangordon | Esp if we evaluate pain/gain ratio | 18:34 |
| freemangordon | also, I don;t see how porting h-d to devuan leaves n900 aside - maybe you should look at fremantle-gtk3 repo in github - ALL but 1 (iirc) backages are based on the ones in CSSU. No stripped functionality, no dbus iface changes. | 18:36 |
| freemangordon | re init system - most of the core stuff in fremantle is started by dsme, which is already ported to devuan | 18:36 |
| freemangordon | The point is - sticking to n900 only while waiting to some miracle to appear and some manufacturer to make 1-1 n900 replacement is a dead end IMO - by the time this will eventually happen, maemo will be long dead | 18:38 |
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| freemangordon | thus the effort to port fremantle to modern distros and more HW - an attempt (even naive) to attract more devs | 18:39 |
| freemangordon | this is in addition to waht Wizzup said ^^^ | 18:40 |
| Pali | make sense, ideally make those maemo sw neutral of chosen init system | 18:40 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 18:40 |
| Pali | and as process guard/monitor and automatic restart can be dsme used | 18:41 |
| freemangordon | s/can/must :) | 18:41 |
| Pali | Maemo5 is some hybrid, when some daemons are automatically restarted by upstart and some by dsme | 18:41 |
| Pali | which make no sense at all | 18:41 |
| freemangordon | maybe it is some legacy | 18:41 |
| freemangordon | I don;t see anything stopping us from moving everything to dsme | 18:42 |
| MoeIcenowy | maybe the best solution is to make everything auto restarted by systemd ( | 18:42 |
| freemangordon | hehe | 18:42 |
| kerio | huehue | 18:42 |
| KotCzarny | uh oh | 18:42 |
| Pali | dsme seems good option | 18:42 |
| freemangordon | MoeIcenowy: patches accepted :p | 18:42 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: make dsme PID1? ;p | 18:42 |
| Pali | and by me are such patches rejected | 18:42 |
| bencoh | haha | 18:43 |
| freemangordon | and put microb in it? | 18:43 |
| kerio | can't we just have stuff not crash instead | 18:43 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: yaaay :D | 18:43 |
| KotCzarny | bencoh, why stopping there? make it pid0! | 18:43 |
| Pali | pid 0? hehe | 18:43 |
| Pali | swapper | 18:43 |
| freemangordon | naah, this is already reserved for systemd :) | 18:43 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: jokes aside ... nice job thus far :) | 18:43 |
| Pali | or what it is | 18:43 |
| kerio | KotCzarny: that's a funny macos meme actually | 18:43 |
| KotCzarny | oh? | 18:43 |
| freemangordon | bencoh: join the party | 18:43 |
| kerio | "kernel_task is using all my cpu, what do i do" "try restarting it" | 18:44 |
| freemangordon | :D | 18:44 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 18:44 |
| kerio | it actually shows up as pid 0 | 18:44 |
| KotCzarny | killing swapper process sounds like fun party | 18:44 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: huhu Wizzup told me the same ... dunno, I already work full time on kernel stuff, so ... :) | 18:44 |
| freemangordon | yep, this is what I meant be "reserved for systemd" | 18:44 |
| freemangordon | bencoh: I guess most of us have fulltime job anyway | 18:45 |
| freemangordon | don;t see how's that rel;ated | 18:45 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: just that I haven't actually written many lines of code outside of work these days | 18:45 |
| Pali | anyway, what is state of pulseaudio-nokia? | 18:45 |
| bencoh | I kinda tend to ... no longer be productive at home | 18:45 |
| freemangordon | Pali: the same, I wanted at least one more guy/girl to join the party before continuing | 18:46 |
| kerio | :( | 18:46 |
| freemangordon | wanted/want | 18:47 |
| freemangordon | Pali: spending next 8-12 months on this only, alone, is a nogo | 18:47 |
| bencoh | do you guys target exclusively armel? do you have an x86 target thus far? | 18:47 |
| bencoh | (like, you know ... qemu) | 18:47 |
| freemangordon | bencoh: almost all the development is don on x86 | 18:48 |
| freemangordon | *done | 18:48 |
| bencoh | oh, okay | 18:48 |
| bencoh | nice | 18:48 |
| bencoh | at least I wouldn't need a device to work | 18:48 |
| freemangordon | allwiner was just a POC, I wanted to see how it behaves, etc | 18:48 |
| freemangordon | bencoh: deffinitely | 18:48 |
| freemangordon | we'll need real device when it comes to TS integration | 18:48 |
| bencoh | indeed | 18:49 |
| freemangordon | gnome devs, in their ethernal wisdom, does not emit 'clicked" events on touch, but "touched" | 18:49 |
| bencoh | wtf. | 18:49 |
| KotCzarny | ;) | 18:49 |
| MoeIcenowy | gnome is also trying to make it touch friendly | 18:49 |
| freemangordon | don't as me | 18:49 |
| KotCzarny | gnome is evil | 18:49 |
| kerio | :D | 18:49 |
| bencoh | *sigh* :) | 18:49 |
| freemangordon | *ask | 18:49 |
| MoeIcenowy | and gnome-3 is at least touch-usable | 18:49 |
| MoeIcenowy | but | 18:49 |
| MoeIcenowy | tooooo heeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaavy | 18:50 |
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| freemangordon | MoeIcenowy: and this is the result when you use xml for something it was not intended for | 18:50 |
| MoeIcenowy | freemangordon: ? | 18:50 |
| kerio | what is xml intended for? | 18:51 |
| freemangordon | and also when you use scripting languages when you need pure C | 18:51 |
| KotCzarny | thats why firefox is too heavy now | 18:51 |
| freemangordon | not for databases at least | 18:51 |
| KotCzarny | it uses dom for ui | 18:51 |
| KotCzarny | in early years it was using c/gtk, it was fasst | 18:51 |
| KotCzarny | now its slow as a cow | 18:51 |
| KotCzarny | same for gtk3/gnome3 | 18:51 |
| MoeIcenowy | I think a C-ized gnome-shell is also acceptable ;-) | 18:53 |
| MoeIcenowy | but js really makes it sucks on low-resource devices | 18:53 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: are you saying you're porting h-d to a bloated framework? :] | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | mhm | 18:54 |
| * freemangordon hides | 18:54 | |
| bencoh | huhu :) | 18:54 |
| bencoh | did they stop gtk2 btw? | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | I think so | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | not sure though | 18:54 |
| KotCzarny | maybe we should stick with gtk2 for now and see how it works out? | 18:54 |
| MoeIcenowy | the problem of maemo on gtk2 is | 18:55 |
| MoeIcenowy | it is heavily patched | 18:55 |
| freemangordon | exactly | 18:55 |
| KotCzarny | but is it open sourced? | 18:55 |
| MoeIcenowy | it is | 18:55 |
| freemangordon | yes | 18:55 |
| MoeIcenowy | an open-sourced abandoned heavily-patched fork is also evil | 18:55 |
| KotCzarny | then it might be manageable? really, even those 1GB tablets might not be enough | 18:55 |
| freemangordon | does gtk2 support modules? I guess yes. | 18:56 |
| Pali | what is patched in maemo's gtk version? | 18:56 |
| Pali | performance patches? | 18:56 |
| freemangordon | Pali: ...and the kitchen sink | 18:56 |
| MoeIcenowy | Pali: mainly touchscreen optimizes | 18:56 |
| Pali | or some new classes specially designed for hildon? | 18:56 |
| KotCzarny | panned areas | 18:56 |
| MoeIcenowy | and some new classes | 18:56 |
| KotCzarny | panned widgets | 18:56 |
| bencoh | kitchen sink? | 18:56 |
| MoeIcenowy | at least touchscreen capability is already in gtk3 | 18:56 |
| Pali | cannot be those new widgets in external libraries? | 18:56 |
| freemangordon | they can. most probably | 18:57 |
| MoeIcenowy | but the touchscreen guys are also patches... | 18:57 |
| Pali | or how you are dealing with it in gtk3? | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | still far from dealing with anything but trying to compile | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | at least we have cordia to steal ideas from | 18:57 |
| bencoh | ftr, gtk2.24 is the last branch of gtk2, and is still being maintained (and has been since 2011) | 18:58 |
| freemangordon | Pali: look ath gtk3 thread on tmo, android808 has shared some details there | 18:58 |
| bencoh | but I suspect there is no new features | 18:58 |
| freemangordon | bencoh: but iirc it requires newer glib | 18:59 |
| freemangordon | waay newer | 18:59 |
| bencoh | glib? yeah | 18:59 |
| freemangordon | libgli/libgobject | 18:59 |
| KotCzarny | hmm, also, bri nging back 'try to just run it for now, port one by one later' might be useful approach | 18:59 |
| bencoh | still noluck for old maemo :) | 18:59 |
| freemangordon | KotCzarny: anyway, applications will have to be ported, even if we stick with gtk2 | 19:00 |
| Wizzup | gtk3 already has proper touch support | 19:01 |
| Wizzup | why not leverage that? | 19:01 |
| bencoh | freemangordon: ported or recompiled? | 19:01 |
| MoeIcenowy | yes, gtk3 have proper touch support | 19:01 |
| KotCzarny | ported | 19:01 |
| freemangordon | stuf like g_thread_init() etc are deprecated in jessie already | 19:01 |
| KotCzarny | some functions might get deprecated | 19:01 |
| bencoh | ah, okay | 19:01 |
| freemangordon | yes, ported | 19:01 |
| bencoh | well, anyway :) | 19:01 |
| freemangordon | gnomevfs is another story | 19:02 |
| freemangordon | it is so old, it is hard to find docs on the inet | 19:02 |
| freemangordon | clutter 0.8 is another example | 19:02 |
| freemangordon | etc. etc. | 19:03 |
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| freemangordon | anyway, back to hd-home.c and clutter_effect_move() :) | 19:03 |
| bencoh | g'luck :) | 19:08 |
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| ymartin59 | Hello | 22:27 |
| ymartin59 | I am in trouble with Xephyr... mouse pointer is not visible... and I am not sure my keystroke are understood properly... I am testing my keepassx 2.0.2 build | 22:28 |
| ymartin59 | Any hint how I should run Xephyr on Debian stretch | 22:29 |
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| ymartin59 | Found in http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation | 22:38 |
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| ymartin59 | Is garage Git server https://vcs.maemo.org/git/ OK for push ? | 23:22 |
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| bencoh | iirc you can ask for a project / git there | 23:48 |
| bencoh | or at least could back then | 23:48 |
| bencoh | dunno about nowadays | 23:49 |
| ymartin59 | $ git push -u origin 0.4.3error: Cannot access URL https://vcs.maemo.org/git/keepassx/, return code 22 | 23:53 |
| ymartin59 | fatal: git-http-push failed | 23:53 |
| ymartin59 | error: failed to push some refs to 'https://vcs.maemo.org/git/keepassx' | 23:53 |
| ymartin59 | 23:53 | |
| ymartin59 | I have justed changed my email address in my account... not sure it may be the reason of this error | 23:54 |
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