IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2016-01-06

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DocScrutinizer05fakebook, farcebook00:26
DocScrutinizer05who want or needs a weird service developed by a guy I think called suckerberg00:26
brolin_empeyIf someone here has too much free time, it would be funny to try to use a UDF volume on a CD to have the DVD Video file format on a CD instead of a DVD.00:29
DocScrutinizer05googlemail, twitter, facebook, whatsapp. "Oh it's for free! great!" - then cry baby since they don't treat you nice. Did you ever hear the old rule "Either you're the customer or you are the product"?00:29
DocScrutinizer05a conjugation of the above rule would be: you always pay, either your money, or with your time or your data or your attention00:30
DocScrutinizer05only in the first case you have a clear idea of total cost of "ownership"00:31
Palibrolin_empey: UDF... do you know if there is fsck for UDF?00:36
DocScrutinizer05in case of farcebook and wutsap you pay with your data and own literally nothing in turn00:39
Paliyou have fb account? you really do not mind that you can be deported to USA? and you agree with it?00:41
DocScrutinizer05facebroke, the wet dream of every three letter agency on this globe (even those that have more than 3 letters)00:44
DocScrutinizer05I'm already worrying to become looking suspicious by _not_ having a FB account :-//00:47
Palihas any agency more than 3 letters? :D00:47
DocScrutinizer05maybe only 6 letters in western alphabet, I don't know err even the name of what they write in .il00:48
DocScrutinizer05I guess it's not Cyrillic00:49
DocScrutinizer05is it?00:49
Paliit is Hebrew00:50
DocScrutinizer05heard of that before ;-)00:50
DocScrutinizer05maybe time for another coffee00:51
DocScrutinizer052 letter: Shin Bet00:53
DocScrutinizer05though I'm cheating: it's officially called ISA00:53
DocScrutinizer05or shabak00:54
DocScrutinizer05btw, cutetube2 works great, after cutetube stopped working shortly after I installed it00:58
PaliDocScrutinizer05: see this:
DocScrutinizer05eeew, the title alone makes me puke00:59
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Pali"Facebook has tested the loyalty and patience of Android users by secretly introducing artificial errors that would automatically crash the app for hours at a time, says one person familiar with the one-time experiment."00:59
Pali"The purpose of the test, which happened several years ago, was to see at what threshold would a person ditch the Facebook app altogether."00:59
Pali"The company wasn’t able to reach the threshold. "People never stopped coming back," this person says."00:59
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DocScrutinizer05they can do such stuff01:04
DocScrutinizer05and they will, just because they can01:05
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* DocScrutinizer05 remembers a story told by Dieter Hildebrandt and sees the parallels in that "reality will become what we tell you it is"01:08
Palisimilar for Big Brother... "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past."01:12
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DocScrutinizer05 golden01:44
DocScrutinizer05(producer planning a TV 'special' about Dieter hildebrandt)   producer:"but who plays your part in that movie?"    Hildebrandt: "I thought *I* do..."    producer:"naaah, you're not the right character"01:53
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brolin_empey“<Pali> has any agency more than 3 letters? :D” Yes: CSIS in Canada.02:09
DocScrutinizer05Extended Three Letter Acronym Agencies ;-)03:12
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* brolin_empey wonders if “FSB intel” is ever ambiguous in Russia.03:29
brolin_empeyIncidentally: Is PATA↔SuperSpeed USB possible in practice?  Is there a hardware implementation of such a converter/bridge?03:39
brolin_empeyI know that SATA↔SuperSpeed USB hardware is commercially available but I wonder if High-speed (480 Mb/s) USB is the fastest possible in practice for PATA?03:40
brolin_empeyPATA supports up to at least 133 MB (or MiB?)/s so I guess PATA↔SuperSpeed USB has a benefit/advantage in practice over PATA↔High-speed USB.03:43
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DocScrutinizer05PATA-Modus Ultra-DMA-133 (UDMA 6) up to 133 MB/s03:47
DocScrutinizer05times faster - in theory03:48
DocScrutinizer05I rather doubt such fast HDD are still available with PATA interface03:49
DocScrutinizer05in the times where PATA was 'state of the art', 480Mb/s were sufficient for the bandwidth of the HDD03:50
brolin_empeyI wonder what is the fastest PATA transfer mode supported by the IBM ThinkPad 755CD from 1995.  My ThinkPad 755CD is currently booting and running from a CompactFlash card but I wonder if a PATA SSD (not CF card) will be faster.03:51
brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer05: I currently use PATA SSDs (not CF cards) from KingSpec.03:53
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brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer05: I mostly use “KingSpec 2.5" IDE/PATA SSD 32GB KSD-PA25.6-032MS”, which costs around 40 USD on eBay including shipping from one of the two Chinas to Canada, but I have a 128-GB 1.8-inch PATA SSD (KingSpec KSD-CF18.6-128MS) too (in my Dell Latitude X1 fanless 80686 notebook computer).04:07
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svetlana> Eu internet consultation closes soon - dont' forget to submit
svetlana(you have to live in eu) just ran into this, dunno whether it's still available04:48
brolin_empeysvetlana: Presumably you mean EU as in European Union, not Estados Unidos.04:50
svetlanahaha yes.. and I actually think you don't have to live in eu, it has that option04:59
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DocScrutinizer05brolin_empey: right, I forgot there's legacy stuff like that05:36
brolin_empeysvetlana: I live in the Confederated Provinces and Territories of (North) America AKA (Socialist) Canuckistan.05:47
svetlanaI think you can fill it in if you live outside of EU actually, I just don't know whether they're going to care as much05:48
brolin_empeyAKA the Constitutional Monarchy of Canada, previously the Dominion of Canada until 1982.05:52
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brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer05: Forgetting about legacy stuff and still using a Nokia N900 in year 2016 is a surprising combination. ;-)06:04
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DocScrutinizer05hey, I also use quite up-to-date stuff too06:08
brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer05: I like the quotation of Oscar Wilde: “It is only the modern that becomes old-fashioned.”06:10
DocScrutinizer05funny and cheerfull to answer questions of
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DocScrutinizer05\o/ twitter msg length 10k char.  And mad dog North Korea allegedly has tested H-bomb.  Heck this is a great day in histroy07:03
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Vajbhad to reboot to get my device to find phone network again. What else could i have done beside reboot?11:06
KotCzarnyturn on plane mode?11:06
KotCzarnysometimes sim/chip reseats itself and its enough to turn modem off/on11:06
Vajbthat didn't even cross my mind11:07
KotCzarnypowerkey menu much?11:07
Vajbcome again?11:07
KotCzarnyjust paraphrasing some meme11:07
Vajbor you meant flight mode can be found there11:08
KotCzarnythat too11:08
KotCzarnyexplaining the thought train: if you use powerkey menu more often you would remmeber the options you had in there11:08
Vajboh well my phone has been acting few weeks now11:08
Vajbit loses network and finds it again soon11:09
KotCzarnyreseat sim?11:09
Vajbyes and since i rarely reboot that didn't even come to mind11:10
Vajbi did that at summer11:10
Vajbalso cleaned sim contacts11:10
Vajband put small piece of tape to add more pressure there11:10
Vajbto squeeze at the best spot :)11:11
KotCzarnytoo much of the tape and it could made things worse11:11
KotCzarnyif your modem starts unsoldering11:11
Vajbit's only one layer of electric tape11:11
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Vajbdunno if it even makes any pressure11:12
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Vajbbut thx for the hint now i gtg11:13
ceenewhich is the right procedure when changing battery?11:26
KotCzarny1/ turn off the device11:26
KotCzarny2/ take out old battery11:26
KotCzarny3/ put in new one11:26
KotCzarny4/ turn on the device11:26
ceenefull charge and calibration by slowly discharging?11:26
KotCzarnyif you meant calibration then suck it dry, full charge, suck it dry again (regular/low use)11:27
KotCzarnycapacity should stabilize after few cycles11:27
bencohunless you were talking about the bq27xx calibration11:28
bencohwhich has nothing to do with any battery cleaning / cycle11:28
ceenei don't know what i'm talking about, i want it to work as best as possible11:28
KotCzarnyi would just use it11:29
bencohceene: do you use stock bme or pali's bme replacement?11:30
ceenepali's one11:30
bencohthen you need to go through calibration of the bq27xx11:31
bencohwhich mean full charge / discharge11:31
bencoh(dont let it die though)11:31
ceeneok, i think i've done that before11:31
KotCzarnybencoh, i've read that its not important keeping it alive, just doing low mA discharge11:32
bencohuse the bq27*.sh script to keep an eye on the chip registers and the battery voltage/level/drawed current11:32
bencohKotCzarny: if you dont mind messing your FAT, sure, it's not important :)11:33
KotCzarnyi dont mind, i keep mostly mp3s there11:34
ceenei can always umount sdcard11:34
bencohemmc too, but yeah, I guess you could11:35
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Vajbi think that fiddling with those bq27 scripts is no longer needed with bme-replacement12:00
Vajbat least i didn't have to use them anymore12:01
Vajbtho it took awhile to get mugen calibrated12:01
Vajbalso i thought that device shuts down before it actually runs out of juice completely12:02
Vajbto power down safely12:02
bencohhow did you check status?12:02
KotCzarnyyes, close to 3250mV or something12:02
Vajbi didn't havfe to. I just used it till it powered down12:03
Vajb3248 to be precice ;)12:03
KotCzarnybut during shutdown power surge makes it insta turn off, could happen in a middle of the write12:03
bencohstock bme powers down, but way too early. I don't know about bme-replacement12:03
Vajbyes with stock u needed scripts, but replacement is smarter or something12:04
Vajband im speaking of bme-replacement from separate repo12:05
VajbSicelo: did u know that maemo pidgin has purple plugin also? I thought of maybe it could work just by copying from desktop pidgin to maemo.12:07
KotCzarnyyou cant copy binary files12:07
KotCzarnyyou wil lhave to recompile it12:08
Siceloyes :12:08
SiceloVajb: by the way this is in connection with? because 'purple' *is* pidgin12:09
Siceloah, i see .. facebook .. you would need to compile the new pidgin plugin, which does work (presents itself to facebook as web app)12:09
Vajbthere is pidgin-purple plugin or smth like that12:10
Vajbor purple-pidgin12:10
KotCzarnylibpurple is the name of the pidgin core12:10
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Vajbbut anyways maemo pidgin has facebook (xmmp) and facebook after installing that12:11
Vajbproblem is it doens't work still12:11
bencoh that one ?12:11
bencohVajb: pidgin in maemo is probably quite outdated12:12
Sicelonot too bad :)12:12
bencohI dunno if this purple-facebook plugin is still API-compatible with our pidgin version though12:12
Vajbi guess it is12:13
Vajboutdated :)12:13
Vajbno idea if it's compatible12:13
KotCzarnycompare libpurple versions12:13
Vajbbut as noted earlier battery lasts longer without facebook xmmp running...12:14
KotCzarnyit's either features or idle12:17
Vajbproblem with it is, that i used it while it worked...12:27
Vajbguess that'll have to eat some juice :)12:27
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Sicelo3248mV should not shutdown device. 3000mV or just a bit higher12:29
SiceloVajb: when N900 doesn't see network, and you've tried all else KotCzarny suggested, do '#pnatd' AT+CFUN=0 (courtesy DocScrutinizer05). works all the time for me. no reboot12:32
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Vajbas root or user?12:44
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Sicelo# ;)12:45
Vajbthere is no stupid questinons ;)12:46
Siceloof course, friend12:47
Sicelo < Sicelo> Vajb: by the way this is in connection with?12:47
Sicelo< Sicelo> ah, i see .. facebook12:48
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bencohbtw, read
bencohI wonder if it would play nice with haze (telepathy/purple bridge)12:53
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bencohmaemo is running telepathy-haze 0.3.5 (2010-06-21).... pretty old13:01
bencohand telepathy-glib 0.8.1 (oO)13:02
bencohstrange, telepathy-haze says that telepathy-glib>=0.9.2 is required for 0.3.5 to work...13:03
bencohgood luck to the one willing to dive into this13:03
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bencohwe probably cant update telepathy-glib since closed apps (hello phone features) depend on it, unless they kept ABI (which I doubt)13:04
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Wizzupbencoh: so identify apps and open them up :)13:17
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alexeyif somebody wants Nokia N810 for free, I'll give it away. My heart bleeds when I think about just throwing it away. Near mint condition.13:21
WizzupWhat is your location?13:22
Sicelo009Ni wish South Africa :)13:23
alexeyFinland. I can post it, but I'm not paying for postage.13:23
WizzupI am remotely interested (amsterdam, NL), but I feel that other people may deserve it more / have more use for it13:23
WizzupI'm willing to pay for post, if you're going to bin it otherwise - but let's see if others have more need13:24
alexeyFor Amsterdam I may find somebody who goes there soon.13:24
* Sicelo009N interested ... too far though :(13:26
Wizzupalexey: well, I'd like to wait a bit to see what others want -- but otherwise I am interested. I not sure how long you will be on? I can provide my email to have more latency-robust comms. Again - don't mind to see if someone else wants it instead.13:30
WizzupSicelo009N: you could check for the postage fees13:30
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alexeyWizzup: I'm running IRC in screen on a hosted server, so no reason to leave before the final decision is made.13:31
* Wizzup does something similar13:31
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Sicelo009Ni seem to suck at using dhl webste :D13:38
Sicelo009Ni'm getting 150-200EUR which is kinda :O13:39
svetlanadhl website suck anyway13:56
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KotCzarnyi wouldnt mind n81014:03
KotCzarnybut i have n800 already, so if wizzup doesnt own it he should get it14:03
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KotCzarnyups shows ~250eur for shipping finland -> south africa14:10
WizzupKotCzarny: if you want it, go for it.14:10
WizzupKotCzarny: makes you wonder how the chinese do it :)14:11
KotCzarnywizzup, bulk14:11
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KotCzarnysicelo, ups shown ~250eur for that package, crazy14:12
Siceloyeah. i saw14:12
Siceloi was on that page too. sucks14:12
KotCzarnylets go google14:13
Sicelodhl was roughly same range14:13
KotCzarnytnt express shown ~33gbp14:15
KotCzarnyups express saver shipping is ~37gbp14:16
KotCzarnydont know how legit is that site though14:17
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Vajbhmm how much is flight to there... Temps here are so harsh that i would as well bring it lol14:18
Siceloi'm in the bushes, haha. stone age. alexey, you can count me out. sd, but fair14:18
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bencohyou might want to post on TMO :)14:29
KotCzarnymake a contest about 'app for n8x0' and put yours as a trophy14:32
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alexeyI'm too lazy to do that15:23
* alexey just found well-used but seemingly working N900 phone15:24
bencohmoving out? :)15:26
alexeynope, just using free day (holiday in Finland today) to clean up the old stuff. Found 5 firewire cables, which puzzles me -- never owned anything that requires firewire15:27
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bencohusb+firewire disk enclosure?15:28
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alexeynope, using NASes. But maybe one or more of old NASes had firewire, that's a good point15:32
Wizzupalexey: flash the n900 and add cssu? :)15:32
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alexeyOkay, it seems to work, so my next offer: N900 phone, well-used but seemingly working, no accessories or box (but stylus and original headset are there) for free. Battery condition is, eghm, unknown. I can post from Finland but won't pay the postage. If nobody wants it, it goes to trash.15:44
KotCzarnyalexey: leaving maemo? :/15:51
Wizzupalexey: I have more interest in the n900 than in the n810, still living in amsterdam :)15:54
Wizzuphave to dash for a bit. bbl.15:54
Sicelo009Nomg alexey15:55
alexeyI did leave Maemo years ago, at "N800 is almost ready" stage :)15:55
KotCzarnyyou did get n8x0 and n900 anyway?15:56
KotCzarnyalexey, can you check how much is the shipping to poland?15:56
KotCzarnyi guess wizzup will benefit from n900 more (i have 3.5 already)15:56
KotCzarnybut n810 wouldnt be half bad too15:57
alexeyKotCzarny: I'll check tomorrow; I think one of my colleagues will travel to Poland in a month or two16:00
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Sicelo009Ndo we know if tv-out causes high power consumption?16:24
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fishbulbis there anything "better" to run on an n900?18:24
fishbulband is there a list of "best apps" that still work?18:24
stryngsfishbulb: the hackpack18:24
fishbulbyou have my interest...18:25
fishbulbI dunno though, it's a dodo. I managed to crack wep once18:25
stryngsEnjoy =)18:25
fishbulbit's so slow, I have an android tablet that's faster than my last computer18:26
fishbulbwhat have you succeeded in doing?18:26
stryngsA whole lot with it.  And now I have help, so even more.  hackpack is based on PwnPhonev218:30
stryngsBUt it grew and matured from there.18:30
fishbulbwhat kinda interesting or cool stuff have you managed to do with it?18:31
KotCzarnyoscp of course18:34
stryngsfishbulb: Scroll down to the bottom of and you'll see all the .debs it has18:37
stryngsfishbulb: It's a pentest distro for the n90018:37
stryngsfishbulb: Easiest way i can describe it =)18:37
fishbulbbut have you done anything really cool?18:38
fishbulbI had pwnphone installed and honestly I think I managed to crack WEP twice ever18:39
fishbulbI mean pwnie express, and all that stuff18:39
stryngshackpack is way better than pwnphone18:42
stryngsA lot more mature so to speak18:42
stryngsv2 was cool and all, but hackpack destroys it performance wise18:42
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fishbulbok but can you give a real world example of something interesting to do with it?18:54
fishbulbyou can leave out the specifics if you want :P18:55
fishbulbI'm interested to see what someone has done with it18:55
stryngsIt's metasploit in your pocket?18:57
stryngsand the things i have done with it, I am under NDA18:57
stryngsI'll leave it, that I actually use it on assessments18:57
stryngsIt runs airpwn-ng18:57
fishbulbdoesnt' any android phone or tablet do the same, but with 2gb of ram and a quadcore processor?18:58
bencohnot sure you can use the monitor mode of your wireless interface, or inject packets, with an android phone18:59
stryngsAnd that's why i use an n90018:59
stryngsI'm just a dude on a phone18:59
stryngswith the stupid tablet, you're some weirdo doing something bad18:59
stryngsplus...  It's linux.18:59
stryngsWhat I do on the n900, can be ported to a pi18:59
bencohI still think most of your work could go to extra, but meh, btw19:00
stryngsbencoh: It can't19:00
stryngsbencoh: I don't optimize19:00
stryngsI refuse to19:00
stryngsi.e.  My root is about 9gb19:01
stryngsmaemo is 256mb19:01
fishbulbyou refuse to optimise and you refuse to check whether modern phones can do the same thing literlaly 100 times faster?19:01
stryngsmy debs would overflow anybodies n90019:01
stryngsfishbulb: Modern phones cannot19:01
KotCzarny[root@lamobo 18:01:30 ~]# df -h19:01
KotCzarny /dev/root       1.8G  1.2G  542M  69% /19:01
stryngsfishbulb: No other phone can do what the n900 can do with their wifi19:01
fishbulbyes they can, look at nethunter19:01
bencohstryngs: not if you just enable a flag in your source package and push it to extras as a source package19:02
stryngsfishbulb: No they cant19:02
KotCzarnymy router/nas/cloud/shell/audio box19:02
bencohbut nevermind19:02
stryngsfishbulb: Not without an external dongle19:02
stryngsbencoh: I also build natively, and so the .debs aren't "debian proper".  Theres a host of reasons why it'll always be incompatible.19:02
stryngsbencoh: The way I look at it, if people want to use it, go for it.  If not, oh well =)19:02
stryngsfishbulb: Not hating on nethunter, but until they figure out monitor mode for it, i'm not interested.19:03
stryngsfishbulb: Especially with the advent of the neo900, whenever that happens....19:03
* stryngs pokes DocScrutinizer05 19:03
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fishbulbstryngs: 9gb root?19:27
fishbulbI have full desktop installs that aren't 9gb19:27
fishbulbwhat on earth?19:27
fishbulbit's awesome that you've kept something going, and I love seeing anything to do with the n90019:28
fishbulband it's beyond my linux skills, but why refuse to optimise?19:28
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DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: ((do we know if tv-out causes high power consumption?)) shouldn't19:46
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Vajblost network again20:00
Vajbtried Sicelo's hint, but got nowhere20:00
Vajbalso when i tried manually join to my network it said not allowed20:01
KotCzarnybut reboot fixed it?20:01
Vajbbut KotCzarny's succestion to flight mode and back fixed it20:01
KotCzarnyi think enabling plane mode turns off/resets modem chip20:02
KotCzarnyi might be wrong tho20:02
Vajbsicelo's solution gave me no such folder error20:02
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Vajbi guess it turns it off20:02
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KotCzarnyum, that AT command is to be ran in pnatd shell20:02
Vajbsince it's for flight20:02
Vajbi guess i don't know how to use it :p20:02
KotCzarnyie. go root, then start: pnatd20:02
KotCzarnythere you should enter string beginning with AT20:03
Vajbyes i got there20:03
Vajband it said error no such folder20:03
Vajbcopy paste so hardly20:03
KotCzarnytypo on sicelo's side?20:03
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Vajbthat's what i got20:04
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KotCzarnyat+COPS=?   (yes, with ? at the end)20:05
Vajblets see20:05
Sicelo009Nwhen i've had the issue, it was never 'solvable' by online->offline->online20:07
Sicelo009Nbut at+cfun=0 has always worked 100%. maybe we have different root causes20:07
KotCzarnyvajb: at+cfun=? or at+cfun20:07
Sicelo009Nand it's not typo :)20:07
Vajbat+cfun=? says ok20:08
Vajbat+gmr gives some info about device20:08
KotCzarnyyou may also try:
Vajbat+cops=? says ok20:09
Sicelo009Nat+cfun=0 .. response will be OK, then shortly you will see the sim card crossed out symbol, and the terminal will no longer respond. few seconds later the20:09
Vajbwell as longer as flight mode thing makes it work im ok20:09
KotCzarnybot those dbus commands essentially do the same as powerkey thingy20:09
Sicelo009Nmodem should power up again20:10
Sicelo009Ndefinitely a deeper cycle than offline->online20:10
KotCzarnywell, i wonder what 'offline' mode in powerkey menu does20:11
Vajbok will try that again if and when that happens again20:11
Vajbany thoughts of why it found my home network, but said not allowed when i tried to connect?20:12
Sicelo009Noffline disables the modem. but not power-cycle it. SIM never 'disappears'20:12
KotCzarnyvajb, maybe some roaming?20:13
Vajbactually i saw crossed sim symbol after i enabled online mode20:13
KotCzarnyis it possible that there is some interference in your area?20:13
Vajbim at home country20:13
KotCzarnywork done on the towers?20:13
KotCzarnyvajb: inter operatora roaming20:13
bencohno such folder?20:14
Sicelo009Nthen something's wrong on your N900. in all my time of ownership , never once had sim crossed out for Offline mode :)20:14
Vajbwell there is almost -30. So maybe that does some funky business with towers20:14
KotCzarnyyeah, for offline mode it shows '/G'20:14
Vajbbut otherwise no idea20:15
SiceloKotCzarny: you can actually test AT+CFUN yourself right now. no harm20:15
Vajbhmm could it be that that command actually worked without me realising it?20:15
Vajbi ran it and it whine then i closed terminal and did flight mode trick20:16
KotCzarnysicelo, i know what cfun does (roughly)20:16
KotCzarnyi had my share of fun with 33.6k20:16
KotCzarnyand later with usb modems20:16
KotCzarnyvajb: trick is to run at+cfun=1 later to reenable20:17
Sicelonop. it reenables itself :)20:17
Sicelotakes a little bit, maybe 10-20s20:17
Vajbwell i don't know what happened then20:17
Vajbatleast im back online20:17
KotCzarnywelcome back then ;)20:18
Vajbthx :)20:18
Vajbi don't know what i do if this puppy dies20:19
KotCzarnygrab the n900 from anthonov20:19
KotCzarnyif wizzup doesnt snatch it earlier20:19
Vajbguess i'll just switch back to my reliable e90 heheh20:19
Vajbtho it needs screen replacement20:20
Vajboh yes20:20
Vajbwhere in finland you live alexey?20:21
KotCzarnyyou are in fi, he too20:21
KotCzarnyyou can then send your failing n900 to wizzup for a development device20:21
Vajbhmm is it reliable enough for that?20:22
KotCzarnysure, its only modem failing20:22
Vajbi have that other which reboots randomly too20:23
KotCzarnyand i bet he could use a device for package testing etc20:23
stryngsfishbulb: 9gb /.  Its the way maemo is laid out.  Typically your / is mounted on the 256mb NAND.  I did some binds to avoid most of this20:23
Vajbi can try that with fresh flash and stuff if this refuses to connect completely20:23
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infobotoptification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"20:37
bencoh+1 for FUBAR20:38
DocScrutinizer05the nice thing for a 5+ years old system, still maintained. There's 95% you'll see a "been there done that" sign when you go there20:43
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stryngsn900 is king20:44
stryngsViva la n90020:44
DocScrutinizer05actually I'm pretty sure some users even did a correct setup, moving complete /usr to eMMC and bindmounting it20:44
KotCzarnyone cant move complete /usr without init hacking20:44
DocScrutinizer05alas this will collide with all 'normal' maemo packages20:44
bencohI'm not sure it would collide so much actually20:45
DocScrutinizer05you first need to un-optify them before they could benefit from a proper /usr setup20:45
KotCzarnybencoh, there is some stuff required for boot in /usr20:45
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bencohDocScrutinizer05: it wouldn't prevent optified packages from working... would it?20:45
DocScrutinizer05but again you're lucky, there's a script for that on your stock maemo5 system20:46
DocScrutinizer05bencoh: nope, should work20:46
KotCzarnyi personally moved whole perl to /opt, threw away the bind mounts and just symlinked it20:47
stryngsWith my crazy bindmounts, I use maemo packages like normal20:47
DocScrutinizer05the probelm rather is: several packages should have been moved from /usr/bin/* to /bin/ by maemo distro maintainers20:47
DocScrutinizer05maemo assumes /usr/(bin|lib|foo)/* being available during early boot, and that's the real brainfuck that finally led to optification20:48
bencohsomeone forgot to read HSF :°20:49
bencoherr, not hsf20:49
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KotCzarnytbh nand should be only used for emergency boot/kernels etc. and use emmc/sd for everything20:49
KotCzarnymaybe i should grab my dev n900 and finish what i started20:50
stryngsKotCzarny: ^ that would be?20:50
KotCzarnystryngs: moving all to emmc/sd20:50
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stryngsplease do20:50
KotCzarnybecause really, 256M more or less on emmc?20:51
KotCzarnywould be really great if fmg & pali manage to make mainline with gsm-voice kernel working20:52
stryngsyou know what would be even better?20:53
stryngsneo900 =)20:53
* stryngs can't wait..20:53
KotCzarnyprice is a killer for me20:53
stryngsI'll pay up20:53
stryngsThe price is high; but I'm willing to spend it.  I love my n900 that much, and the lack of 802.11N sucks.20:53
KotCzarny1000eur is a price of a small car ;)20:54
stryngsBut look at what dummies pay for G6 iphone6S etc..20:54
KotCzarnynever had a samsung or iphone20:54
KotCzarnythey are just toys for gaming20:54
KotCzarnyand youtube20:55
DocScrutinizer05hey Lennart, heard this? >>While you may have the root filesystem on a large partition, and may be able to fill it to your heart's content, there will be people with smaller partitions. If you have more files installed, you may find incompatibilities with other systems using root filesystems on smaller partitions. If you are a developer then you may be turning your assumption into a problem for a large number of users.<<21:01
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sixwheeledbeastWhy would he care about root partitions?21:06
DocScrutinizer05what we need for maemo to sanitize is an anti-optify that moves all binaries in /usr/*/ that are _not_ symlinks to /OPT/*/*/* to the corrensponding /*/* location (i.e. /usr/lib/foo to /lib/foo if /usr/lib/foo is *not* a symlink). Then unoptify all the symlinked shuff and finally move /usr to eMMC21:06
stryngsI tried to rally the troops DocScrutinizer05 =)21:07
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: didn't you hear about systemd needing /usr to live on /,  just like maemo21:07
stryngsI did...  I gave up due to lack of interest...21:07
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: And I agreee about FHS and /,  my typical build is:  ./configure --prefix=/usr21:08
sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: nope, I wondered what started the topic21:08
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast:   poettering: >>nowadays every system has at least 5GB of /" (OWTTE)21:08
KotCzarnydoc is proposing symlinking hell21:11
KotCzarnyit really doesnt make sense to stop at half way21:11
KotCzarnywe need / on emmc (all of it) and /home on another partition on emmc21:11
* Maxdamantus has 27.4 GiB on /21:11
sixwheeledbeastbut still why would he be bothered. systemd is far from "do one thing and do it well".21:12
MaxdamantusWhy /home on another partition?21:12
stryngsfor the camera i imagine21:12
KotCzarnymaxd to get rid of mydocs as a vfat21:12
* Maxdamantus just has his root filesystem in /home/maemo5-root21:12
* Maxdamantus did that, doesn't have a separate /home partition.21:13
KotCzarny(and yes, i want to get rid of emmc exporting via usb and using tinysamba21:13
KotCzarnymaxd, main reason for separate /home is user data not being wiped during reflashing/rewriting /21:14
KotCzarnyand filling up the fs by the same user not making system unbootable21:15
KotCzarnymaybe we should have a poll on tmo about what size / and /home should be21:16
stryngsshould be 30gb and home should be 2gb21:17
stryngs / should be 30gb and home should be 2gb21:17
stryngsstupid irssi21:17
Sicelowhat's going to occupy / then?21:17
Humpelstilzchenwhy separate partitions anyway?21:18
bencohHumpelstilzchen: nand+eMMC21:18
bencohcant make that disappear21:18
KotCzarnysicelo: everything -user data21:18
bencohHumpelstilzchen: ah, hmm ...21:18
Sicelo and /home ?21:18
bencohnot sure I'd want lvm on nand, but ...21:18
Sicelo 30GB / seems ... funky ..21:19
stryngs15 and 15 then21:19
stryngsBut more than 256mb21:19
stryngsI use 9gb and it seems sane21:19
stryngswhatever the sed trick gives21:20
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it might work with packages that use that maemo-optify thing21:21
keriothat's horrendously broken21:21
keriobut it won't work with packages that install themselves in /opt/21:21
stryngsPersonally, I don't care where packages install themselves; if I want to find something, I can dpkg -x it or whatever.  For me, the main thing is don't FILL the / or any other partition.21:23
* Maxdamantus doesn't randomly recreate root partitions on his computers, including his phone.21:25
DocScrutinizer05kerio: packages that install themselves in /opt are arguably not broken or flawed. The real problem is to keep them untouched when we deoptify the system, since they also may have symlinks in /usr/*21:25
kerioyou can't "deoptify" them21:25
* Maxdamantus has `rm` for that.21:25
keriowithout upgrading their packaging21:25
kerioand if you do that, dpkg takes care of it for you21:25
DocScrutinizer05s/may have/may and *ought* have/21:27
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: kerio: packages that install themselves in /opt are arguably not broken or flawed. The real problem is to keep them untouched when we deoptify the system, since they also may and *ought* have symlinks in /usr/*21:27
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stryngsSo what are we thinking ladies/gents...  A new era for maemo?21:35
fishbulbhey you're debian nuts21:35
stryngsShall we come together and build something, better?21:35
stryngsCaptain planet style...?21:36
fishbulbcaptian planet didn't run for as long as this thing has been21:36
DocScrutinizer05I'm honestly convinced the future for fremantle is careful improvements, step after step. "Something new" is maybe appealing but for sure not maemo fremantle anymore21:38
DocScrutinizer05all the beauty of maemo5 is in its maturity21:38
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KotCzarnycssu is a chance for 'something new'21:56
KotCzarnylets not f*ck it with nokia wtfs21:56
bencohKotCzarny: not really21:57
stryngscssu, would be cool; if it could be done without a script.21:58
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, scripts are a nogo in *NIX22:01
DocScrutinizer05cssu is the maemo4/5 *update*22:01
DocScrutinizer05please don't get fooled into thinking of cssu as a new OS release22:02
KotCzarnyit might be fremantle-reloaded 1.4.022:04
Siceloyes, that's fine. we still need to keep 'normal' Maemo though for those that aren't interested in the fancy stuff22:05
KotCzarnysicelo, 1.3.1 images are for those users22:05
Sicelono. those are outdated22:05
Siceloand it isn't fair to introduce complexity for users not needing to go that far. we need to keep cssu as it is, then a geek fork can be launched on the side for those interested22:06
KotCzarnyseriously, anyone still using n900 either is a hacker or linux geek22:08
Siceloin this regard, you can conside Thumb to be a fork, and that works fine :)22:08
SiceloKotCzarny: not necessarily22:08
KotCzarnysicelo, would be swell to have hardfloat os22:09
Sicelothere are many more N900 users than we see on IRC. go to Yappari thread to see .. some of those can't get a log from /home/user/.config/scorpius/yappari.log22:10
* DocScrutinizer05 idly ponders if >50% of maemo genuine executables are scripts22:10
KotCzarnyyappari could be nomore if wa keeps on breaking api/banning22:10
Sicelothe point is .. not all N900 users even know a lot of linux22:11
Siceloby making CSSU become too geeky, we're basically 'killing' those people. so let's make geek forks all we want, but keep base system maintained as far as reasonably possible, i.e. CSSU22:12
stryngsSicelo: You make a valid point22:12
DocScrutinizer05the point is: even if they do, they might insist in a non-hacker version for their daily phone. I for one do22:12
stryngsWhat is this daily phone thing22:12
stryngsThat blows my mind22:12
stryngsTo me, the n900 is my toy, but a phone?  It sucks.22:13
Sicelodoesn't suck for me :)22:13
stryngsSlow browsing22:13
DocScrutinizer05phh so what?22:13
Sicelobeen my main phone since 200922:13
DocScrutinizer05same here22:13
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I'm used to Nexus5 for a "smartphone"22:13
DocScrutinizer05and that's relevant to maemo how?22:13
stryngsI've just never seen how people would want to use it as an actual phone22:14
stryngsIt's bulky, etc..22:14
Sicelo(OT: my silent earpiece is killing me)22:14
Sicelostryngs: it was sold as a phone haha22:14
stryngsI look at it as a computer that can make a phone call22:14
DocScrutinizer05again, what's the relevance of your personal thoughts to 30k+ of maemo5 users?22:14
stryngsMeh, just my opinion =)22:16
stryngsAnd like an asshole, we all have em =)22:16
DocScrutinizer05cssu is meant to ensure a extended livespan to the device for those 30k users, in a way they are used to and expect it to continue to work like that22:16
DocScrutinizer05but I'm duplicating, just read the preamble in ~cssu22:17
KotCzarnysmart phones should be names gaming phones22:18
KotCzarnyn900 IS a smart phone22:18
KotCzarnyfor SMART people22:18
DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: (silent earpiece) please elaborate22:19
KotCzarnysicelo, main thing is the package compatibility issue between old and new22:19
KotCzarnyhaving everything on / means old packages should install/work fine, and new packages can be autooptified on install i think22:20
KotCzarny(when installed on old fremantle)22:20
SiceloDocScrutinizer05: something causes the earpiece on my main N900 to not 'work' for phone calls. no sound. i have to either use loudspeaker or earphones. the earpiece is definitely working however, as a restart of pulseaudio seems to restore correct functionality about 90% of the time. i have no clue what does this. as far as i know i don't have anything installed that should be responsible.22:21
Siceloreinstalled pulseaudio, but situation persists.22:22
sixwheeledbeastAs time goes by it seems the phone application still works, compare that to all the other ageing packages in Maemo.22:22
sixwheeledbeastI use the phone more than anything else22:23
sixwheeledbeastProbably followed by OMP, Terminal, Modrana and Modest22:24
bencohxterm (the real one) and marble for me, but YMMV22:24
KotCzarnyphone, oscp, terminal (ssh, mc)22:25
SiceloXTerminal (ssh), Yappari, Pidgin, MicroB, Fennec, Ovi Maps, Dorian (epub), OMP/stock MP .. my list22:26
Sicelowell i don't use phone much because i hate making phone calls .. but people do call me, so i need to count that one too22:26
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Vajbu can install callerx to block those calls Sicelo :)22:27
DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: strange. do a   amixer -c022:27
Sicelohaha. i don't need to block them .. they are 'valid' e.g. my parents22:27
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Vajbi use n900 as a phone too, but also for emails, irc, yappari, games, shopping list, (facebook)22:29
alexeyVajb: Helsinki area22:29
Vajb+notes too22:29
SiceloVajb: what games?22:30
Vajbalexey: im coming to nosturi at 16.1 to see some gig's, if you want you can give that n900 to me then :)22:30
DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: lemme do a phonecall and paste my version of this list22:31
DocScrutinizer05so you can do a diff22:31
VajbSicelo: lately i play some quiz on qquiz also 2048 and some puzzles on tha puzzle collection22:31
alexeyVajb: I guess Wizzup was the first one to claim it, but you'll be second in queue if something is changed22:32
alexeyVajb: [ot] what's in Nosturi then?22:32
sixwheeledbeastI use lots of Maemo Extras packages (I would struggle without my N900) but they are the main ones. Notice how we all have a terminal at the top of our list :)22:32
Vajbthere will be aborted, kataklysm and septicflesh22:32
Sicelosixwheeledbeast: maybe we're terminal. dead, haha22:32
alexeyjudging by the names -- way too loud :D22:33
Vajbwell, my kind of dance music ;)22:33
Vajbbut ok see how it goes with Wizzup and let me know. There is plenty of time till that :)22:35
Sicelooh god! too much difference22:39
SiceloDocScrutinizer05:  you took that after, or during call?22:39
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Siceloin any case .. it doesn't make much sense to me that it should work when i restart pulseaudio, and then stop later. i could monitor dbus, but this happens in its 'own' time :/22:43
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Sicelotried to look at pulseaudio logging .. seems i might have syslog issues there .. but going to investigate further22:45
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DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: first half during call, second half during speakerphone call22:49
Siceloah. i took mine in 'idle'22:50
DocScrutinizer05in idle it's pretty much useless for diagnosing earpiece problems ;-)22:51
Siceloi'll do it again when problem manifests itself haha. i've got your output saved on my Desktop22:52
Siceloright now all is working fine again, so nothing much to see, i guess22:52
stryngsHope u gents dont use secure-is.nl22:56
KotCzarnyhmm, can one route audio (music) output to earpiece?22:57
Siceloi wouldn't want to do it .. not when the speakers are good as they are :)22:58
KotCzarnyjust for test22:58
KotCzarnyotoh, its just pa routing problem not failing contacts etc?22:58
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SiceloKotCzarny: shouldn't be contacts, i guess. otherwise restarting pulseaudio wouldn't have the effect it does23:08
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I just realize that I had audio problems with stuttering etc recently that I've rarely ever seen before. I wonder if some "bugfix" on PA might not work as expected23:15
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keriomeanwhile in iOS land
kerio"It invokes AutoLayout to calculate height every time a cell scrolls on screen, which can be very expensive."23:31
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lobitohey, chem|st. sorry to bother you. could it be that is blocking tor exit nodes?23:52
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