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| freemangordon | ~flashing | 10:18 |
|---|---|---|
| infobot | somebody said maemo-flashing was http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh | 10:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, got a device here that asks for lockcode *after* flashing | 12:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-S | 12:48 |
| KotCzarny | removing lock code is easy | 12:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~lockcode | 12:49 |
| infobot | i heard lockcode is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post524522 | 12:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~factinfo lockcode | 12:49 |
| infobot | lockcode -- created by Termana <~bradley@123-3-161-191.static.dsl.dodo.com.au> at Thu Oct 28 11:44:48 2010 (1808 days); it has been requested 12 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 36s ago. | 12:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, rescueOS is pretty convenient | 14:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after finally telling network manager to STFU and leave alone the "modem"... | 14:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> sudo /sbin/ifconfig enp0s29u1u8i8 up | 14:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> sudo /sbin/ifconfig enp0s29u1u8i8 192.168.2.14 netmask 255.255.255.0 | 14:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((FSCK avahi, FSCK new udev, FSCK L.P.!) | 14:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (do me a favor and try to memorize and type "enp0s29u1u8i8") | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> telnet -l user 192.168.2.15 | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Trying 192.168.2.15... | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Connected to 192.168.2.15. | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /rescueOS$ echo root:$(grep -A 13 lock_code /dev/mtd1|tail -1) | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | root:6sn86kTIscpP2 | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jr@saturn:~/mymaemo-workdir> sudo john -format:DES -i:digits old_maemo_lock_code | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Loaded 1 password hash (Traditional DES [128/128 BS SSE2-16]) | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 10557 (root) | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | guesses: 1 time: 0:00:00:00 c/s: 2479K trying: 12599 - 11468 | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/47517621 | 14:12 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: is that horrible ethernet iface name on maemo? | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on plain stock RPM linux (suse) | 14:14 |
| jon_y | oh, "linux" | 14:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I admit I didn't get around to uninstall that avahi crap | 14:14 |
| jon_y | pass net.ifnames=0 to fix the ethernet names | 14:15 |
| jon_y | pass it to the kernel args | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/13463036 http://paste.opensuse.org/24784814 http://paste.opensuse.org/51947437 | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: thanks! | 14:18 |
| jon_y | as far as I know "predictable" naming is pretty random | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | udev also started acting funny since a few years (since L.P. messed it up I guess) | 14:19 |
| jon_y | I'd rather ethernet names be referred by MAC address | 14:20 |
| jon_y | or even GUIDs like on Windows | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I would be perfectly happy with sth like ttyACM0 or sth | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or ethUSB0 | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or whatever | 14:21 |
| jon_y | what does enp0s29u1u8i8 even mean anyway | 14:22 |
| jon_y | is that your pci tree? | 14:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nfc | 14:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | are you ex-NOK kernel jon_y? | 14:23 |
| jon_y | nope, I am working on the linux kernel for work | 14:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 14:24 |
| jon_y | well everything on the desktop is somehow a PCI device | 14:24 |
| jon_y | even though there are no physcal PCI slots | 14:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, I guess I will prepare a "tiny" howto for rescueOS (which has a pretty flawed readme) and lockcode-unlocking | 14:25 |
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| jon_y | does rescueOS support ipv6? | 14:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g in rescueOS it recommends >>flasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0<< which is missing trailing " to start with, but also the file isn't called initrd.img but rescueOS-1.0.img | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno | 14:28 |
| jon_y | ipv6 autoconfigured address is nice | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/NIN101_N900_rescue_os/nin101.uni.cx/n900-new/206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/ | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/61440296 | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/NIN101_N900_rescue_os/nin101.uni.cx/n900-new/206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/documentation.txt | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then missing: login root rootme | 14:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (I was lucky to guess that one ;-D ) | 14:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on 3rd try already | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then it could use a warning to get your glasses or magnifier lens to read the 3PT on N900 ;-) | 14:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I guess that applies to old farts like me who can't read a newspaper closer than 1m from their eyes | 14:33 |
| FIQ | or people with vision impairments | 14:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *almost* can read rescueOS shell on N900 when looking at it from 80cm distance | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | stuff like "root login on pts/1" I can guess | 14:35 |
| KotCzarny | doc, you are using old rescueos | 14:35 |
| KotCzarny | newest is 1.2 | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kernel timestamps however look like [$$$$$$$$$$$$] | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | KotCzarny: I'm aware | 14:35 |
| KotCzarny | also, on normal linux (slackware) it's usb0 interface | 14:36 |
| KotCzarny | (and usb1 etc) | 14:36 |
| KotCzarny | even with kernel 4.2 and current udev | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your metrics of "normal" | 14:36 |
| KotCzarny | http://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/ | 14:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "normal" nowadays means "infested by poetterisms and general system cabal crap" | 14:37 |
| KotCzarny | this is current one | 14:37 |
| jon_y | "normal" by hipster standards :V | 14:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~systemd | 14:37 |
| infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see https://devuan.org http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd | 14:37 |
| jon_y | there was a april fools joke about forking glibc | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~poettering | 14:38 |
| infobot | 'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01331.html, or http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1404.0/01488.html, or see ~systemd cabal | 14:38 |
| jon_y | I'm not so sure if it was a joke | 14:38 |
| KotCzarny | jon_y: i wouldnt be surprised | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooooph, that's for sure no joke | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's 100% in line with general poetterism | 14:39 |
| jon_y | I'll wait for the day when C++ makes it into systemd | 14:39 |
| jon_y | with glibc forked to use c++ with a "legacy C interface" | 14:39 |
| KotCzarny | thats too highlevel | 14:39 |
| jon_y | pssh, highlevel | 14:39 |
| jon_y | they put a DNS server in it | 14:39 |
| NIN101 | DocScrutinizer05: what is flawed about rescueOS readme and which suggestions do you have to make it better? | 14:39 |
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| KotCzarny | lets integrate systemd in efi or processors | 14:39 |
| KotCzarny | nin101: he was referring to the old file | 14:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi NIN101 :-) | 14:40 |
| KotCzarny | 1.0 | 14:40 |
| jon_y | and thinking that falling back on google DNS is a good idea | 14:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: see [2015-10-11 Sun 13:27:44] <DocScrutinizer05> e.g in rescueOS it recommends >>flasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0<< which is missing trailing " to start with, but also the file isn't called initrd.img but rescueOS-1.0.img [2015-10-11 Sun 13:30:13] <DocScrutinizer05> then missing: login root rootme | 14:40 |
| jon_y | "but you have no DNS configured! Why not just use a well known DNS Server?" | 14:41 |
| jon_y | fuck that noise | 14:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: but I used an old version | 14:41 |
| KotCzarny | there is no login on 1.2 | 14:41 |
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| KotCzarny | boots to shell | 14:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: OH YEAH 8.8.8.8 | 14:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the idiocy of the century | 14:42 |
| jon_y | when there is no DNS, there is no DNS, don't jump to assumptions | 14:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 14:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but that's not what poettering and friends want linux to be | 14:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they want it to act as the frankenstein monster of windows and macintosh | 14:43 |
| KotCzarny | windows was born to bring computing for computer illiterates | 14:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with everything just handled by 'wizards' and smart daemons | 14:43 |
| KotCzarny | ie. idiots | 14:43 |
| jon_y | the curse of the "desktop OS" | 14:43 |
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| jon_y | so I also heard network manager will screw up whatever preconfigure ethernet interface when it wakes up | 14:44 |
| KotCzarny | it does that already i think | 14:45 |
| jon_y | as if it owns everything | 14:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I started to hate Poettering's work before I even knew there's a person called Poettering. I hated avahi and later PolypAudio and I thought "those are two piedces of crap they actually could be siblings" | 14:45 |
| jon_y | what does avahi do anyway? | 14:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | turned out they are | 14:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "rendevouz" | 14:45 |
| KotCzarny | ~wiki avahi | 14:45 |
| infobot | At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{wiktionarypar|avahi}} 'Avahi' may refer to: * "Avahi" (genus), a genus of woolly lemurs, which are primates that inhabit Madagascar. * Avahi (software), a zeroconf networking implementation. " | 14:45 |
| jon_y | upnp? | 14:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | more than that | 14:46 |
| jon_y | oh zeroconf | 14:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | zeroconf | 14:46 |
| jon_y | fuck you zcnf | 14:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes!!! | 14:46 |
| jon_y | use ipv6 like a red blooded man | 14:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it eas a maybe 10 years ago, I spent a whole afternoon to find out it was avahi who fucked up a perfectly working heterogeneous network | 14:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this was my first encounter with poetterisms | 14:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there I learned to hate all the stuff this guy forces into linux | 14:48 |
| KotCzarny | how come it gets accepted as a requirement? | 14:48 |
| jon_y | KotCzarny: becase "Desktop OS" nonsense | 14:49 |
| KotCzarny | ie. 'i cant configure my system and i need some automatic things that would do the magic for me' ? | 14:49 |
| jon_y | yes | 14:50 |
| jon_y | learn to ping ff02::1, no need to zeroconf | 14:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe | 14:50 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 14:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | learn about /etc/hosts (or whatever the equiv name on windows) | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | windoze stack is based on bsd's one | 14:51 |
| jon_y | C:\Windows\System32\drivers\hosts | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | nope | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody needs avahi to configure a LAN with 5 clients | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | its in c:\windows\system32\config\etc\hosts or something | 14:51 |
| jon_y | KotCzarny: crazy modified BSD | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | /cgd/c/WINDOWS/system32/drivers/etc/hosts | 14:52 |
| KotCzarny | we both were close, hehe | 14:52 |
| jon_y | yeah C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts | 14:53 |
| jon_y | well, Windows networking isn't exactly BSD compatible | 14:53 |
| KotCzarny | also, most home networks have router with dhcpd anyway | 14:53 |
| KotCzarny | so no need for zeroconf | 14:53 |
| jon_y | read/write won't work on network sockets | 14:54 |
| jon_y | since they are implemented entirely on different subsystems | 14:54 |
| jon_y | the windows "C Library" isn't networking aware at all | 14:54 |
| jon_y | "The Internet? We don't need that!" | 14:55 |
| jon_y | even on modern Windows | 14:55 |
| jon_y | networking is implemented on top of win32 APIs | 14:55 |
| KotCzarny | they have .net, you know, people shouldnt be bothered by some pesky low level calls | 14:55 |
| jon_y | except that now you have no access to low level calls | 14:56 |
| jon_y | and your networking stack is more shit now | 14:56 |
| jon_y | no raw sockets etc | 14:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's noteworthy that by todays standards it's incorrect to claim "maemo is debian based" - in fact it's now devuan-based rather than debian | 14:58 |
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| KotCzarny | its debian(2009) based | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW devuan is now what debian was before it turned to the dark side | 14:58 |
| Maxdamantus | It's not even based on Debian from 2009. | 14:59 |
| KotCzarny | also, nokia did few "desktop os" things to it | 14:59 |
| Maxdamantus | The core packages are completely independent of the Debian system. | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's based on debian from 2005 or something | 14:59 |
| Maxdamantus | It's not. | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it is | 14:59 |
| Maxdamantus | The people at Nokia/Trolltech/whatever put together the core packages themselves, they're not from the Debian project. | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no matter how often you quote changelogs | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BWAHAHAHA | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | suuuure, Nokia invented their own libc | 15:00 |
| Maxdamantus | No. It's still using glibc, just as Debian, Gentoo, ArchLinux, etc do. | 15:01 |
| Maxdamantus | but like all of those, Nokia put together their own source package for it. | 15:01 |
| Maxdamantus | it doesn't come from Debian. | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? that is what every distro does | 15:01 |
| Maxdamantus | Ubuntu doesn't. | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aha! | 15:01 |
| Maxdamantus | Ubuntu just uses a fork of Debian's distribution. | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we been there and you failed to grok that ubuntu isn't even linux, according to *your* arguments and rationale | 15:02 |
| jon_y | Ubuntu is pretty alien to me alright | 15:03 |
| Maxdamantus | No. We've been there and you've shown that you're simply silly. | 15:03 |
| jon_y | even after using Linux close to a decade | 15:03 |
| KotCzarny | ok, it all matters, did they use debian based distro then modified, or just used debian packaging tools and packaged things themselves | 15:03 |
| Maxdamantus | KotCzarny: the latter. | 15:03 |
| bencoh | I'm not completely sure about that either | 15:04 |
| Maxdamantus | You can check by doing things like `apt-get source libc` | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and? | 15:04 |
| Maxdamantus | The changelog just has a few entries from some people at Nokia. | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again CHANGELOG | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fuck the changelog! | 15:04 |
| jon_y | nobody writes Changelogs anymore :) | 15:05 |
| KotCzarny | i do | 15:05 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 15:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this is not linux since it has no changelog reaching back to minix | 15:05 |
| jon_y | use git log instead | 15:05 |
| Maxdamantus | You basically have to write a changelog in Debian packages afaict. | 15:05 |
| Maxdamantus | It's part of the formal format. | 15:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? | 15:05 |
| jon_y | when logs become mandatory, it will read "banana banana banana: | 15:06 |
| jon_y | " | 15:06 |
| KotCzarny | and: "another banana nana" | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when I import a source and check it in to my own git, you say it's not linux anymore since it lacks changelog history | 15:06 |
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| Maxdamantus | DocScrutinizer05: if you have evidence that they copied the Debian distribution of glibc, you can show it if you want. | 15:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Maxdamantus: you constantly bitch over changelog but fail to prove that Nokia maemo sources are actually _not_ a simple fork of debian | 15:07 |
| Maxdamantus | DocScrutinizer05: afaict, they just started with the GNU distribution. | 15:07 |
| bencoh | they have their own patches | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: sure they do, that's why they made maemo | 15:08 |
| bencoh | (like the memcopy/neon implem that was merged later) | 15:08 |
| KotCzarny | bencoh, yes, but in the start, did they took some already made os and hacked it, or pieced things together one by one | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that however doesn't mean maemo is based on RTos or some weird shit Nokia invented. It's clearly based on debian | 15:09 |
| jon_y | Symbian OS :) | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | proof: people use glibc patches from upstream | 15:10 |
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| bencoh | as far as I can tell, they took a plateform, replaced (and/or patched ) a lot of things (including core packages) and added their own layers on top | 15:10 |
| Maxdamantus | Which things did they keep? | 15:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if maemo glibc was actually "invented by Nokia" like Maxdamantus claims, those patches never could fit | 15:11 |
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| Maxdamantus | DocScrutinizer05: I've never claimed that. Stop being ridiculous. | 15:11 |
| Maxdamantus | If DocScrutinizer05 stops beating his wife, he'd be a better person. | 15:12 |
| KotCzarny | +1 | 15:12 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05 | 15:12 | |
| *** Maxdamantus was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (T900: "User terminated!") | 15:12 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer05 | 15:12 | |
| bencoh | wtf | 15:12 |
| bencoh | wtf both of you. | 15:12 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: the right reply is "wife beating is legal in my district" as the kick message :) | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 15:13 |
| bencoh | >_< | 15:13 |
| KotCzarny | district 11 | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/leagl/mandatory/ | 15:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's quite obvious and undisputed that maemo5 is based on mameo4 which is based on maemo3... | 15:18 |
| Maxdamantus | Indeed, the changelogs for the core packages go back to 2006. | 15:19 |
| Maxdamantus | as opposed to 1997 or something, when the Debian packages started. | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why would debian be a milestone? they based on slackware iirc | 15:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | so debian isn't linux since they don't have changelogs explaining what they copied? | 15:21 |
| Maxdamantus | Because the Debian project is what created the Debian packages. | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maemo is what created the maemo packages | 15:21 |
| Maxdamantus | Exactly. You've got it. | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's an extremely silly argument | 15:21 |
| Maxdamantus | At least it is an argument. I'm not sure what yours is. | 15:23 |
| Maxdamantus | "Debian is Gentoo and Gentoo is GNU, which is also Linus Torvalds and Maemo" | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, stick with your definition of "is based on". I'm not interested, and I guess 99% of maemo users aren't either | 15:23 |
| Maxdamantus | It's important because it's the reason you can't just install Debian packages on Maemo. | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aha, I can | 15:24 |
| Maxdamantus | Even if you go back to Debian from 2006. | 15:24 |
| Maxdamantus | You're probably either doing something other than "installing Debian packages on Maemo", or you're doing something that will easily induce incompatibility. | 15:25 |
| * Maxdamantus sleeps. | 15:25 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not intereested | 15:26 |
| Maxdamantus | Of course not. That's why you don't get into these arguments. | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | isn't it *you* who always starts this nonsense shit? | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | common sense is: maemo is based on debian. You like to disagree, we have all heard this. Now please keep it at that | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you have something *contructive* to contribute that actually points out problems maemo users/debels may run into, and you did proper investigation on how to *solve* those problems, please speak up. Otherwise I don't see what's your point, other than trolling | 15:29 |
| kerio | maemo is based on debian like ubuntu is based on debian | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 15:30 |
| kerio | and you can't necessarily expect to install a debian package on ubuntu or viceversa and have it work flawlessly | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not all of them, but quite a few will work nevertheless | 15:30 |
| jon_y | well, not expected to work, ymmv | 15:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not expected, ok | 15:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nevertheless I even installed binaries from ubuntu on OpenSuse and they worked | 15:32 |
| jon_y | again ymmv | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 15:32 |
| jon_y | as long as they use the same ABI, it would work | 15:32 |
| jon_y | but no guarantees | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 15:32 |
| bencoh | which we dont (hf vs sf) | 15:32 |
| jon_y | like using a different bullet for your different chambered guns :) | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the term "based on" is not very clearly defined, and obviously everybody implies other properties that shall come with it | 15:33 |
| jon_y | kind of work, but might explode the chamber instead | 15:33 |
| jon_y | heh, you can claim grub is based on DOS, since it boots on x86 too | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | soinstead of fighting battles about whether Y is based on X, we rather should discuss properties and problems of Y | 15:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. "patches for X also apply to Y, unless the patches subsystem is unique to Y" would be such a topic that _really_ sheds some light on the topic. Particularly when listing the incompatible subsystems | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. nobody will doubt debian recent is based on debian_3_y_o, yet you can't expect old stuff to run on new debian | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and for sure you can't expect new stuff to run on old debian | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so "based on" is prolly a rather useless classification | 15:40 |
| KotCzarny | all those arguments are silly, all that matters in linux is kernel abi and compatible libs | 15:40 |
| KotCzarny | and lately systemd and (un)friends mad another distinction | 15:40 |
| KotCzarny | *made | 15:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what matters is: devuan packages have an almost 100% chance to run on maemo OOTB (after compiling them in scratchbox). This however does NOT apply for recent debian packages anymore | 15:41 |
| KotCzarny | you wont run debian packages compiled with glibc newer than 2.5 | 15:41 |
| KotCzarny | missing symbols etc | 15:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please re-read | 15:42 |
| KotCzarny | hmm | 15:42 |
| KotCzarny | dependencies? | 15:42 |
| jon_y | recompiled | 15:42 |
| KotCzarny | or different packaging tools? | 15:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | systemd? | 15:43 |
| KotCzarny | so, for example, i cant use any package? | 15:44 |
| KotCzarny | even ntpdate? | 15:44 |
| jon_y | oh right systemd expects /bin and /usr/bin to be on the same volume | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ntpdate recently got assimilated by systemd. No? Then it will be next month | 15:44 |
| jon_y | works if you have a giant partition setuo | 15:44 |
| jon_y | *setup | 15:45 |
| jon_y | sudo already kind of got assimilated | 15:45 |
| KotCzarny | hehe, i've read 'assassinated' | 15:45 |
| * jon_y uses su anyway | 15:45 | |
| jon_y | none of that docker container nonsense | 15:46 |
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| kerio | meh, fuck linux | 15:48 |
| * kerio recently moved to freebsd | 15:48 | |
| * kerio will not move back | 15:48 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: you allow systemd cabal to steal linux and run with it? | 15:48 |
| kerio | well | 15:48 |
| kerio | at some point the realization that freebsd has always been better than linux hit me | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, can't argue that | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | might be right | 15:49 |
| jon_y | freeBSD is nice, but I will only move it goes GPLv3+ :) | 15:49 |
| kerio | it might just be the fun of using something new, mind you | 15:49 |
| jon_y | well, I actually like the gnu userland | 15:50 |
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| jon_y | and proper driver support | 15:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for sure *BSD are the "better" UNIX | 15:52 |
| KotCzarny | freebsd is nice, but isnt suitable for personal os much | 15:52 |
| kerio | yeah, openbsd is a lot better, it's got X preinstalled :> | 15:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ratings like "better" are again sth very fuzzy and need specification which properties are used for evaluation | 15:53 |
| kerio | also, freebsd has zfs | 15:54 |
| kerio | literally anything else pales in comparisong | 15:54 |
| kerio | *comparison | 15:54 |
| KotCzarny | :)_ | 15:54 |
| KotCzarny | yeah | 15:54 |
| kerio | (as long as you can actually use your drives) | 15:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "it's better *since*..." is arguing the wrong way around. 1. define what's important for you, 2. evaluate which OS fulfills those requirements best | 15:55 |
| KotCzarny | 1/ hardware support (ie. graphics card, peripherials etc) | 15:55 |
| KotCzarny | i know, you can use vesa with almost anything | 15:55 |
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| KotCzarny | but it's a bit of pain | 15:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | for me the requirements are: a) fully open and tangible by user, based on UNIX principles b) userbase as huge as possible -- a) rules out redmond crap, b) leaves linux | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw a) also rules out poetterux | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aka lennux | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a shame I'm still on OpenSuse | 16:01 |
| KotCzarny | i've tried suse once | 16:02 |
| KotCzarny | i dont remember if i even finished installing | 16:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I'm lazy and don't ever even upgrade lightly. And I don't want to switch to XY now, only to learn in 6 months that it also went poettering | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I wait for devuan | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how could you abort installation? | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's pretty much a one-click thing | 16:03 |
| KotCzarny | i just got fed with it and installed something else | 16:03 |
| KotCzarny | mind you, it was suse, not opensuse | 16:04 |
| KotCzarny | (long time ago) | 16:04 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: install freebsd! | 16:04 |
| kerio | it's fun | 16:04 |
| kerio | and really quick | 16:04 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: you can already use devuan now | 16:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | too small userbase to warrant decent support | 16:04 |
| KotCzarny | erm, freebsd is quite popular | 16:04 |
| KotCzarny | just not with desktop lusers | 16:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | well, this is a workstation, not a server or some toy | 16:05 |
| Wizzup | freebsd is not a toy os | 16:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for some it is | 16:05 |
| KotCzarny | it can be used as a desktop os | 16:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and while I usually find a linux version of proprietary tools I need, I hardly ever seen any commercial company offering those tools in a *BSD variant | 16:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/usually/sometimes, when lucky,/ | 16:07 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: and while I sometimes, when lucky, find a linux version of proprietary tools I need, I hardly ever seen any commercial company offering those tools in a *BSD variant | 16:07 |
| KotCzarny | you can use linux binaries in freebsd | 16:07 |
| KotCzarny | (i think it has some compatibility) | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hardly | 16:07 |
| KotCzarny | FreeBSD provides 32-bit binary compatibility with Linux®, allowing users to install and run most 32-bit Linux® binaries on a FreeBSD system without having to first modify the binary. It has even been reported that, in some situations, 32-bit Linux® binaries perform better on FreeBSD than they do on Linux®. | 16:08 |
| KotCzarny | However, some Linux®-specific operating system features are not supported under FreeBSD. For example, Linux® binaries will not work on FreeBSD if they overly use i386™ specific calls, such as enabling virtual 8086 mode. In addition, 64-bit Linux® binaries are not supported at this time | 16:08 |
| KotCzarny | https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/linuxemu.html | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I had lots of fun 2 weeks ago with installing a tool made for ubuntu linux on my OpenSuse. I don't think I'd be anywhere now when I had tried to install same tool under freeBSD | 16:08 |
| kerio | the linux emulator is very limited | 16:09 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: you could be surprised actually | 16:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I got no time to play with that. As mentioned this is a workstation, not a toy | 16:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you want to give it a try, for the laugh: http://www.silego.com/softdoc/software.html | 16:12 |
| KotCzarny | Graphics RAM: 128MB | 16:14 |
| KotCzarny | hehe | 16:14 |
| KotCzarny | (requirements) | 16:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hm? | 16:14 |
| KotCzarny | does it use opengl for somerendering or what? | 16:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nfc | 16:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's using Qt afaik | 16:15 |
| KotCzarny | maybe it's qt reqs then | 16:15 |
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| kerio | you could run the windows version in wine :> | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | THAT I didn't try yet. Tried virtualbox etc (where the 128MB video requirement was a helpful info) but in the end gave up on it and ran it generically | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err genuine | 16:17 |
| bencoh | they've got bhyve now (freebsd) <3 | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it still segfaults on file requester open, for "open..." and "save as..." etc | 16:17 |
| bencoh | (kvm was the main reason I went linux some years ago) | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | blame Qt | 16:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno why those suckers didn't link statically | 16:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway `GP3 <projectfilename>` works now, as does "save" | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just the dang file requesters... :-S | 16:20 |
| KotCzarny | you can always run with older libs by pointing to them via LD_LIBRARY+PATH | 16:21 |
| KotCzarny | LD_LIBRARY_PATH | 16:21 |
| KotCzarny | which usually solves libs incompatibility | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/98590280 | 16:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it seems like this stuff needs _newer_ libraries though | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I had quite some fun installing a buttload of Qt libs | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and one of them obviously acts up | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tried that LD_LIBRARY_PATH stuff, didn't help much | 16:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but in the end iirc the major fly in the ointment was permissions to access USB | 16:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somehow I fixed that the unix way, prolly by adding GP3 to a group that may access USB device | 16:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or I brute force tweaked the permissions of /dev/usb | 16:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/83015496 | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | krhrhrhr | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | saturn:~ # lsof 2>/dev/null |grep GP3|wc -l | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 1046 | 16:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and BT again enabled >:-( | 16:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | btw the first pastebin above is about GP3 silently dieing when clicking on "open..." | 16:39 |
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| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: virtualbox is the worst one i guess... | 16:43 |
| bencoh | depends on your needs | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno. I finally made it run in a VM but the problems were all the same | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | used vagrant | 16:45 |
| drathir | but i hear the bsd maybe in near future will support kvm when that happen will be great... | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which in turn didn't give me direct full access over USB and no X window either | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | didn't want to install XEN, since despite it works great, it messes up my host's network config with nasty bridges | 16:46 |
| bencoh | drathir: there was a project to port KVM to freebsd years ago, but considering they eventually developped bhyve, it's prolly dead | 16:47 |
| * drathir only like openvz and kvm... | 16:48 | |
| drathir | openvz bc of performance and cheap, kvm for power users... | 16:48 |
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| * ozero Hi all. Not to start holywar, any advantages of maemo 5 vs replicant/cyanogen security-wise? From what I've found LUKS option is limited to /home | 17:56 | |
| KotCzarny | depends what kind of security you talk about | 17:58 |
| KotCzarny | against device access or spyware/remote toy like | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ozero: Maemo resp the N900 is a plain linux computer not much different to your desktop linux PC. You basically can do all the things on the former you would expect to work on the latter | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so running LUKS on rootfs is tricky but can get done - on both platforms | 18:03 |
| ozero | well, on my typical *nix computer I can encrypt whole /dev/sdA and keep bootloader on /dev/sdB | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the only thing around core system not compatible between your desktop PC and N900 is the bootloader | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on N900 you only got uBoot as FOSS bootloader | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can't use stuff like GRUB etc | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I however doubt - without having looked into it - that on PC the bootloader itself would handle LUKS on rootfs. It's probably a special initrd that does, and you can implement exactly same solution on N900 | 18:07 |
| KotCzarny | one can always flash minimal kernel which could kexec another kernel+initrd which would have some encryption script | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not even needed, uBoot itself can start "another kernel+initrd" | 18:08 |
| KotCzarny | yeah | 18:08 |
| KotCzarny | but initrd is a must usually to properly setup things | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for LUKS etc it is | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo usually doesn't use initrd (anymore) | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though there's still a NAND partition "initrd" which is unused. For legacy reasons ;-) | 18:09 |
| KotCzarny | unused you say? good to know | 18:09 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | check cat /proc/mtd | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mtd4: 00200000 00020000 "initfs" | 18:10 |
| KotCzarny | yeah, just didnt know its not used for anything | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's legacy from maemo4 afaik, not used for anything | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alas too small to create an ubifs on it | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw *some* tools use it, I heard ;-) | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | once there been considerations how to easily tell somebody ruined his N900 by overclocking | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | other people store some passwords there, I heard | 18:12 |
| bencoh | ? | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but officially it's unused or even unknown | 18:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and afaik it's also untouched through flashing | 18:14 |
| ozero | DocScrutinizer05, so with default bootloader or uBoot, is it possible to setup plain dm-crypt for / ?.. | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's unclear if NOLO still has legacy that would try to load an initrd from there | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ozero: I'd say yes | 18:15 |
| bencoh | tricky thoug | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just as tricky as on PC | 18:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe a tiny bit more even | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but really only a *tiny* bit | 18:16 |
| * ozero have something to do for a next weekend | 18:18 | |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 possibly never before noticed Nokia N900/.documents/maemo_software_copyright.pdf | 19:34 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | acording to this document you might think the complete firmware is under free licensing and you may share it to whomever you like, in unaltered or modified form | 19:35 |
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| drathir | O.o | 20:19 |
| drathir | L29Ah: really? | 20:19 |
| drathir | L29Ah: ++ nezmar.jabbim.cz | 20:20 |
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| L29Ah | what | 20:30 |
| L29Ah | sometimes it fucks up and produces some dupes of me | 20:31 |
| L29Ah | and then i get all the messages doubled | 20:31 |
| L29Ah | like now | 20:31 |
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| Maxdamantus | 01:30:34 < kerio> and you can't necessarily expect to install a debian package on ubuntu or viceversa and have it work flawlessly | 21:28 |
| Maxdamantus | Except you can, because it is literally Debian. | 21:28 |
| Maxdamantus | it's as much Debian as Mint is Ubuntu. | 21:28 |
| Sicelo | have you tried Maxdamantus? | 21:28 |
| Maxdamantus | No. But I know you can, because Ubuntu is a direct variant of Debian, just as Mint is a direct variant of Ubuntu. | 21:30 |
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| KotCzarny | um, dependency hell | 21:30 |
| KotCzarny | etc | 21:30 |
| Sicelo | ok. :) | 21:30 |
| Maxdamantus | I think they even effectively rebase on Debian releases occasionally. | 21:30 |
| Sicelo | i can confirm kerio was right. of course, one can always "force" things to work, even across RPM-DEB distros | 21:32 |
| Maxdamantus | “Before release, packages are imported from Debian Unstable continuously and merged with Ubuntu-specific modifications” | 21:32 |
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| drathir | L29Ah: its really good and stable as rock service... | 22:17 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: ubuntu trying to be debian like its not a debian... | 22:18 |
| drathir | Maxdamantus: only one similarity in my opinion is both using deb... | 22:19 |
| L29Ah | what do you suggest? | 22:22 |
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| drathir | L29Ah: nezmar.jabbim.cz the server... | 22:48 |
| drathir | L29Ah: xmpp correctly... | 22:49 |
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