IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2014-07-17

Sicelowhat adapter?00:05
M4rtinKthe original one00:06
Siceloby adapter you mean charger?00:06
M4rtinKoh, looks like it booted now00:07
Siceloyou might have to blacklist some charger module somewhere.. i never had that problem, but there was a time when certain KP had those issues00:07
M4rtinKseems I had to let it charge a bit first00:08
Siceloah.. your battery was too flat :)00:08
M4rtinKwell, one would thing this is not a problem when the charger is connected00:08
M4rtinKI guess it is not that simple :)00:08
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ultmine boots successfully approximately half of the times with usb cable connected. judging by syslog it goes into ACT_DEAD the other half.00:25
ultbut i have g_nokia inserted from rcS-late and maybe percentage of charge left affects bme decision somehow. KP5000:26
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infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs is OK (no ~bootloop)!.00:42
sixwheeledbeastah, one t :)00:42
M4rtinKsixwheeledbeast: BTW, I think I fixed that logging bug00:47
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sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: great I'll be testing it when it's released. planning on doing a lot of walking/cycling for the next month or so.00:48
M4rtinKin related news the routing data repository has been updated:
M4rtinKcheck the post for a nice example of a 3000 km route computed on device with the 6 GB Europe-car dataset :)00:49
M4rtinKsixwheeledbeast: you will be soon able to - I'm sending it to autobuilder now :)00:50
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sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: :) I need to look at getting offline routing working too, so I will be playing with that also.00:51
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M4rtinKI'd like to eventually make it easier to use00:52
M4rtinKmainly regarding downloading the data packs - it should be possible to do it directly from modRana00:52
M4rtinKsixwheeledbeast: ok, should be built :)00:57
sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: I agree about making it easier to use.00:58
sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: Great, but don't expect me to go walking at this time of night :P00:58
M4rtinKbah :D00:58
M4rtinKlooking forward to your feedback :)01:05
M4rtinKand good night :)01:05
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infoboti heard flasher is at (also .exe!), or or generally   HARMattan(N9):, or -- list of filenames/md5sums:, or
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MaxdamantusHm. So dumping/restoring el-v1.db didn't fix it. Looked like it only saved one message afterwards for that person.10:50
Maxdamantusbut it saves messages for other contacts.10:50
MaxdamantusWhat sort of corruption is it said to actually be?10:51
Maxdamantuscorruption because the program is stupid (so produces tables it doesn't understand), or because sqlite3 has bugs, or because the file itself corrupts (from the filesystem)?10:53
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MaxdamantusI guess another form could be where sqlite3 leaves the database in an inconsistent state if the program exits for some reason .. dunno if the rt-messaging thing does that.10:56
Maxdamantusassuming sqlite3 doesn't use some transactional system to prevent that.10:57
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MaxdamantusMm .. without replacing the el-v1.db file at all, just killing the process using it (so it restarted), it saved some messages that were resent (by the network—not sure how the protocol works there).11:11
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MaxdamantusJust one message.11:13
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MaxdamantusCould there be a 200-message limit?11:22
MaxdamantusThe contact has 202 for read_events in GroupCache11:23
Maxdamantusand the last field, "CONSTRAINT factor UNIQUE(service_id, group_uid)" is 1, unlike all the others, which are 0.11:23
MaxdamantusMaybe it intends to delete earlier messages after 200, which could be triggering some bug.11:24
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MaxdamantusDon't think so.11:33
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KotCzarnymy n900's clock is speeding at a rate 2min/week, is there any automatic fix for it that doesn't include ntpd?11:52
bencohI'd love an opinion on that as well11:53
KotCzarnyi could use cron, but maybe there is an app already done?11:53
bencoha cron for that sounds ugly11:55
KotCzarnymy first thought was that first i measure how fast it speeds up then fix it once per day11:55
KotCzarnyand cron is doable, ugly but doable11:56
kerioKotCzarny: are you sure the drifting doesn't depend on clock speeds?11:56
bencohclock is speeding, so you'll go back in time everyday11:57
bencohdefinitely sounds bad :p11:57
KotCzarnykerio, im not changing clock speed, at leAst im not using it actively11:57
kerioblindly removing two minutes for each week doesn't seem like a good idea11:57
kerioyou are changing clock speed all the time11:57
keriobetween 0 and 50011:57
KotCzarnykerio, but it's quite consistent that i have to fix the clock manually by 1-2 minutes every 2-3 weeks11:57
KotCzarnythat's why fixing it via cron is better than me having to click it through menus11:58
KotCzarnyand since it's required periodically...11:58
KotCzarnyotherwise, is there any tool to get time via gsm network?11:59
keriothere should be something like that already in the settings11:59
keriobut it depends on your network11:59
kerioit doesn't work at all for me11:59
kerio(h3g italy)11:59
KotCzarnyi'm on 'plusgsm', but automatic time never worked for me12:00
KotCzarnyweird, it worked when i enable it right now12:00
kerioyou could use gps12:00
KotCzarnymaybe network got some upgrade12:00
KotCzarnygps fix is.. well.. slow?12:00
keriobut free12:01
kerioand it works even in the middle of the sahara desert12:01
KotCzarnynothing is free, you pay in battery charge12:01
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KotCzarnystill, weird as it is, it got time from gsm network now12:01
bencohgsm network clock update doesnt seem to work for me either12:02
bencoh(france sfr)12:02
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KotCzarnyweird there is no tool to get gsm network time/date12:07
kerioit's not something you can poll for, i think12:07
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kerioi dunno12:08
KotCzarnyit's not a question12:08
KotCzarnyit's the command that modems can use12:08
keriosudo pnatd12:08
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DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: there's no cron on maemo12:13
KotCzarnydoc: that's easily fixable12:13
DocScrutinizer05check 'alarmed'12:13
keriooh no you mean the addition12:13
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KotCzarnyi can even write something like: while [ 1 ]; do fix_clock; sleep 1209600; done12:14
KotCzarnyand run it once per startup12:14
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DocScrutinizer05AT+CCLK probbaly reads the modem's internal cmos clock, not the network's notion of time12:16
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KotCzarnycould be12:17
KotCzarny       adjtime - correct the time to synchronize the system clock12:17
KotCzarnyfound it12:17
KotCzarnystandard linux command to fix time12:17
DocScrutinizer05network sends time/date via some sort of broadcast12:17
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DocScrutinizer05I stronly deprecate use of adjtime12:18
KotCzarnywhat do you propose instead?12:18
keriontp :)12:18
KotCzarnymind you, i don't want to pay for network usage12:18
DocScrutinizer05indeed, but first of all check what's your system's CMOS clock in relation to system clock12:18
KotCzarnynot to mention it would have to enable network, fix time, disable network, and run periodically12:19
KotCzarnyn900 has cmos clock?12:19
KotCzarnysince when?12:19
KotCzarnyevery time i remove battery time is lost12:19
DocScrutinizer05it even has power-up on cmos alarm12:19
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DocScrutinizer05you can set an alarm in maemo osso-clock and then switch down the device. Will power up in time to make alarm yell12:20
kerioKotCzarny: it's because the backup battery is known to fail12:20
KotCzarnythat i know12:20
KotCzarnykerio, then it was failed fresh from factory12:20
DocScrutinizer05so how do you think that works without a cmos aka hw clock?12:20
kerioKotCzarny: eyup, something like that12:20
KotCzarnydoc: low power subsystem that's independent from device?12:21
KotCzarnybut powered by the same battery and connected via gpios ?12:21
DocScrutinizer05aka cmos clock ;-)12:21
kerioit's just the hardware clock12:21
kerioas opposed to the software clcok12:21
KotCzarnyok, hwclock should work then?12:21
DocScrutinizer05and not connected viy gpio but integrated into twl403012:21
KotCzarnykerio: cluck?12:21
DocScrutinizer05hwclock should work, yes12:22
kerioonce you know the correct time, hwclock --sys-to-hw12:22
keriomodulo correct option name12:22
DocScrutinizer05though you don't need that, I guess the maemo settings for time already does it12:22
KotCzarnyi think it returns same time as system12:22
DocScrutinizer05man hwclock12:23
DocScrutinizer05there's that notorious /etc/adjtime file12:23
KotCzarnyjust checked and time in system changed the same moment as in hwclock -r12:23
DocScrutinizer05kernel however has "11 minute mode"12:24
DocScrutinizer05again, see man hwclock12:24
DocScrutinizer05and man ntpd or somesuch12:25
KotCzarnybusybox's hwclock is limited12:25
DocScrutinizer05make sure you never do a hwclock --sys-to-hw on system shutdown. you only may do this when you just adjusted system time to the correct time12:26
KotCzarnyi hever did hwclock on n900 before12:26
KotCzarnystill i have /etc/adjtime12:27
DocScrutinizer05when you garble your correction factor in /etc/adjtime file, you will be in for *really* nasty effects, like time of by centuries on every boot12:27
DocScrutinizer05garbling that factor is easy when doing hwclock --sys2hc on a system with incorrect system time12:28
KotCzarnygotta try hwclock's solution in following month12:29
KotCzarnyto see if it's viable solution12:29
DocScrutinizer05that's why your initscripts MUST NOT use hwclock --sys2hc on shutdown12:29
DocScrutinizer05alas most linux distros do exactly that nevertheless12:29
KotCzarnydo n900's default scripts use hwlock?12:29
DocScrutinizer05I dunno12:29
DocScrutinizer05prolly not in the deprecated way12:30
DocScrutinizer05they will probably use hwclock --hw2sys on boot12:30
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DocScrutinizer05or that's all managed by closed blob nokia timed12:31
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DocScrutinizer05err clockd12:34
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DocScrutinizer05cat /etc/init.d/hwclock12:35
DocScrutinizer05  if test -x "/sbin/hwclock"; then12:36
DocScrutinizer05    echo -n 'Synching system time to hardware clock ... '12:36
DocScrutinizer05    /sbin/hwclock -w12:36
KotCzarnygotta disable it too12:36
KotCzarny4 years in use and found only now?12:38
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# hwclock;date12:38
DocScrutinizer05Thu Jul 17 11:37:59 2014  0.000000 seconds12:38
DocScrutinizer05Do., 17. Jul. 2014 11:37:58 CEST12:38
DocScrutinizer05consistently a 1s late systime to cmos clock12:39
DocScrutinizer05you could try setting systime via settings and then check if cmos clock got updated too12:39
DocScrutinizer05immediately after, 10min after12:40
KotCzarnyalso nice12:40
DocScrutinizer05wtf? why IP?12:40
KotCzarnydont know, google result12:40
DocScrutinizer05never use google results with IP in them12:40
KotCzarnyif im looking for info i'm now afraid12:40
DocScrutinizer05and particularly don't post those links anywhere12:41
KotCzarnyfor software, yes12:41
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DocScrutinizer05actually, thanks to the broken bupbat, you never should use hwclock --sys2hc with adjusting function of scew factor in /etc/adjtime12:51
kerioDocScrutinizer05: why is tmo responding to an ip address?12:51
kerioinstead of rightfully answering 404?12:51
DocScrutinizer05next time you remove battery and adjust time after booting up, you will introduce an adjustment factor of ~14 years per hour12:52
KotCzarnydoc, i rarely had to remove battery12:52
KotCzarnyso hwtime could work12:52
KotCzarnyassuming it gets it's data right12:52
DocScrutinizer05then when you shut down your device for 10h and boot it up again, your hw clock will receive an adjustment of 140 years into the future12:53
KotCzarnywe will see12:54
DocScrutinizer05now figure you correct those 140 years and hwclock gets to know of it ;-P12:54
keriobest phone ever12:54
kerioalso doubles as a time machine12:55
DocScrutinizer05try to find out what the correction factor will be after you turning back system time by 140 years12:55
KotCzarnypity ntpdate is in extras-devel still12:55
KotCzarnyi guess most regular debian packages should be in extras12:56
KotCzarnyat least those console ones12:56
DocScrutinizer05I tell you about correction factor: it involves time between last time you adjusted hwclock and this time you adjust hw clock, and those 140 years difference12:57
DocScrutinizer05plus some more math magic12:57
kerioKotCzarny: "ntpd -q" does the same thing12:57
kerioDocScrutinizer05: can't you just rm /etc/adjtime?12:58
KotCzarnyhwclock -w creates it12:58
DocScrutinizer05not really since it also has TZ12:58
keriono, that's /etc/localtime12:58
KotCzarnyisnt timezone in /etc/timezone ?12:58
kerioit's /etc/localtime that's a symlink to the appropriate zoneinfo file12:58
DocScrutinizer05something like that is in rtc/adjfile as well12:59
keriowhich can be in /etc/zoneinfo, /usr/share/zoneinfo12:59
KotCzarnyright, zoneinfo12:59
DocScrutinizer05I usually end up copying a clean template adjtime file to the real one on each boot12:59
KotCzarnyerm, /etc/timezone in slackware12:59
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KotCzarny /etc/TZ in uclibc based things13:00
KotCzarnyntpd: not found13:00
DocScrutinizer05       --adjust13:01
DocScrutinizer05              Add or subtract time from the Hardware Clock to account for systematic drift since the last time the clock was set or adjusted.  See discussion below.13:01
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DocScrutinizer05as long as you don't use that, everything fine I guess13:01
DocScrutinizer05or even always use --noadjfile  plus other needed parameters for -utc or whatever13:03
KotCzarnybtw. hwclock is ran only on boot13:03
KotCzarnyso it's not the 2min/2weeks b0rking factor13:04
KotCzarnyit's not ran via cron or anything13:05
DocScrutinizer05cat /etc/init.d/hwclock13:05
KotCzarnyso it won't fix/change the time on running device13:05
KotCzarnyunless one would calibrate it and run it periodically13:06
KotCzarnywhich is going back to cron resolution13:06
DocScrutinizer05yup, that's why I suggested to check if your RTC is more accurate than sysclock, which quite usually is the case13:06
KotCzarnymy rtc is synced with system time13:06
DocScrutinizer05then you probably have something like "automatic time by GSM" enabled13:07
KotCzarnycould it be that some system package syncs time from rtc periodically?13:07
DocScrutinizer05then nothing in system SHALL sync hw clock to sysclock on a regular basis13:07
KotCzarnyit's your guess or you've checked all the code?13:08
DocScrutinizer05*from* RTC, that may actually be13:08
DocScrutinizer05no, that's mere deduction13:08
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.13:08
infobothmm... rtc is implemented transparently unless sa1100-rtc is loaded. hwclock unnecessary.13:09
DocScrutinizer05actually I think sysclock simply stalls when CPU goes into deep suspend13:09
KotCzarnybut then rtc should deviate from systime13:09
KotCzarnycould it be that something syncs time when waking up?13:09
DocScrutinizer05which it does for me, by 1s13:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, of course13:10
KotCzarny1s could be ioport access delay or something13:10
KotCzarnyas its consistent13:10
KotCzarnycheck in a week to confirm13:10
DocScrutinizer05not when the later invoked system time is 1s *behind*13:10
DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall that on a true suspend a linux system reads out RTC, calculates difference to sysclock, and resets the sys clock to RTC+difference on resume13:12
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DocScrutinizer05so it's not exactly a sync13:12
DocScrutinizer05and for sure no adjustment of RTC13:12
DocScrutinizer05but again, that's for true suspend-to-ram etc13:13
DocScrutinizer05which maemo isn't supposed to do13:13
KotCzarnyone would have to check kernel patches for n90013:13
KotCzarnyn900 uses armel, right?13:13
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless maemo / omap3 stops master system clock when CPU goes idle, so obviously sysclock will stall as well13:13
DocScrutinizer05armel, right13:14
DocScrutinizer05there's aslo an adjust field for sysclock13:14
DocScrutinizer05somewhere in kernel13:14
KotCzarnythat's what hwclock uses probably13:15
DocScrutinizer05to make all jiffies and whatnot have better accuracy13:15
KotCzarnyas adjtime is a linux c call13:15
DocScrutinizer055,2 adjtime   yes13:15
DocScrutinizer05sth like that13:15
DocScrutinizer05but it only operates for drift in master system clockgenerator (28MHz?)13:16
DocScrutinizer05so only adjusts sysclock accuracy while sysclock actually running13:16
DocScrutinizer05I gather a PM kernel has patches to read out RTC pretty frequently to update sysclock after master-CPU-clock(damn the ambiguity between clock=watch and clock=oscillator) got stopped for a second or an hour13:18
DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: anyway, two facts seem to hold true: nothing in system should adjust the RTC unless you set time manually or from external higher stratum source (e.g. GPS, GSM, ntp)13:20
KotCzarnyyeah, 'nothing SHOULD'13:21
KotCzarnybut apparently time drifts noticably13:21
DocScrutinizer05and you probably can set up ntp in a way to frequently adjust sysclock to RTC13:21
DocScrutinizer05and obviously the /etc/init.d/hwclock stop is BS13:22
KotCzarnyit only has a chance to b0rk the time on reboot13:22
DocScrutinizer05cargo cult coding13:22
DocScrutinizer05read what I wrote, about when to expect RTC getting adjusted, and patch /etc/init.d/hwclock stop. Then get a alarmed job that does a hwclock --hctosys once a day13:24
KotCzarnyofftopic, can i remap eur key to |13:24
infobotKeytable files and keyboard utilities. URL:
DocScrutinizer05~leete kbd13:24
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DocScrutinizer05damn, why can't i recall that factoid name13:25
infobotmethinks keyboard is The main input device on PCs, it consists of all the letters in the alphabet and the numbers 0 through 9. Usually, especially on computer keyboards, there are extra keys like cursor keys and function keys.13:25
DocScrutinizer05kerio to the rescue!13:25
kerioi wat13:26
DocScrutinizer05leete kbd mapping13:26
KotCzarnybtw. infobot is wrong, my keyboard doesn't have all keys from MY alphabet13:26
kerioor something13:26
DocScrutinizer05sth like that13:26
kerioit was vi___'s keyboard layout13:26
kerioKotCzarny: your alphabet is wrong, then!13:26
KotCzarnylocalizations hell13:26
KotCzarnyas usual13:26
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys vi kbd13:27
infobotFactoid search of 'vi kbd' by key returned no results.13:27
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys vi*kbd13:27
infobotFactoid search of 'vi*kbd' by key (1): vi-kbd.13:27
infobotrumour has it, vi-kbd is
DocScrutinizer05~#maemo kbd is <reply>see vi-kbd13:27
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay13:28
infobotmethinks vi-kbd is
DocScrutinizer05once and for all now13:28
KotCzarnyyou have just removed old info: <infobot> Keytable files and keyboard utilities. URL:
DocScrutinizer05~_default kbd13:29
infobotKeytable files and keyboard utilities. URL:
KotCzarnyi have to recompile kernel to use that map?13:29
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KotCzarnylooked like so for a moment13:30
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DocScrutinizer05>>WARNING! This article assumes you have read the main article on remapping keyboard!<<13:30
DocScrutinizer05>>You need to edit this file on your N900: /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nokia_vndr/rx-51<<13:31
KotCzarnyDo not place the copy in the nokia_vndr folder or it will stop your phone from booting13:32
KotCzarnythis is more important13:32
DocScrutinizer05**the copy**13:32
KotCzarnyyeah, and how editors usually make backups of edited files?13:33
DocScrutinizer05you're not suposed to use such editor on system files13:33
KotCzarnynot true13:33
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KotCzarnyvi IS the unix editor for system files13:33
KotCzarnythough on linux it usually makes no backups13:34
DocScrutinizer05and I never seen vi do a filename~ or whatever in hte dir of the editied source by defualt13:34
KotCzarnystill, i usually make a copy with .orig extension before i start to break things13:35
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DocScrutinizer05tjere's quite a number of dirs in a linux system that are not tolerant to creating bogus files in them13:35
jogaI do get .file.swp when editing something with vim..13:35
teotwakiDocScrutinizer05: DocScrutinizer05 vi creates a .$FILENAME.swp by default13:36
DocScrutinizer05that's a pretty bad behavior13:36
teotwakiwhy? You shouldn't use files that begin with . in a glob search.13:36
DocScrutinizer05how's that paradigm related to e.g. etc/rc3/* ?13:37
teotwakils /etc/rc3/*13:38
teotwakidoesn't list dotfiles13:38
DocScrutinizer05I bet init is pretty happy about that13:38
teotwakiinit shouldn't load files that begin with a dot13:38
teotwakiand AFAIK, it doesn't.13:38
DocScrutinizer05it's generally a poor idea to mess in system dirs with tools you don't completely understand how they work13:39
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DocScrutinizer05and I don't think I feel tempted to read the source of whatever kbd mapping related code to know if it will care about /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nokia_vndr/.$FILENAME.swp13:41
KotCzarnyi thinks its not about filenaming13:41
KotCzarnybut just scanning files in dir13:42
teotwakiif it uses a POSIX wildcard, it won't pick it up.13:42
KotCzarnyand looking for code blocks that match13:42
teotwakianyway, good chat.13:45
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DocScrutinizer05btw NOKIA_vndr and POSIX? really now? ;-P13:46
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DocScrutinizer05anyway thanks for pointing at the general posix rule regarding that. didn't know such rule exists13:47
zGrrmoin :)13:48
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norayrhey, people... my second n900's usb eventually broken. can I transfer contacts to n810? (while battery still alive)13:54
federico3damn usb connectors13:54
KotCzarnynoray: bluetooth?13:54
KotCzarnysd card?13:55
norayryes, I can transfer abook.db, but is format compatible?13:55
norayrI can scp it.13:55
KotCzarnylol, after reboot it shows more battery than before13:55
norayrI guess db format is incompatible.13:56
KotCzarnyexport contacts to .vdb ?13:56
KotCzarnyor .vcard13:56
KotCzarnydont remember what is the standard13:56
norayrhm, vdb keeps all contacts in one file?13:57
KotCzarnywhat i meant, is there an option in phonebook to export contacts to file?13:57
KotCzarnywoo-haaah! i have tilde mapped to blue-z and pipe to blue-c13:58
KotCzarnynow i can type shell commands like a pro!13:58
KotCzarnyyeah, you can export contacts as .vcard14:00
KotCzarnyit should be one file14:00
KotCzarnybut you can also zip it or cat it into one file14:00
KotCzarnyand import anywhere14:00
KotCzarnyeven on adroid etc14:00
KotCzarnyunless n810 doesn't know about .vcard14:01
KotCzarnythen just parse it to the format it knows14:01
KotCzarnyor look for vcard importer14:01
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KotCzarnybtw. you should try bluetooth method first though14:03
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norayrthank you14:04
KotCzarnythough i cant see to massively send all contacts via bt14:04
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DocScrutinizer05that's called sync14:06
KotCzarnywhen i see 'sync' i think that it will delete some data14:07
DocScrutinizer05send data, receive data, sync14:08
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DocScrutinizer05are the tree options to chose from, in "Sync"14:08
DocScrutinizer05under settings14:08
KotCzarnywhere is this sync option?14:09
DocScrutinizer05in settings14:09
DocScrutinizer05why? how are calendar entries related to contacts?14:10
KotCzarnyhow are calendar entries related to settings?14:10
DocScrutinizer05via "Sync"14:11
KotCzarnysettings relate to app idelogically, not to the data14:11
KotCzarnythat's why it's unintuitive14:11
KotCzarnyand he clearly meant contacts14:11
KotCzarnynot calendar entries14:11
DocScrutinizer05good enough for me14:11
DocScrutinizer05send patches to Nokia!14:11
DocScrutinizer05and sorry, there is no option to only sync birthdays of all contacts between 30 and 40 years old14:13
KotCzarnyi never enter birthdays on my phone14:14
KotCzarnythough i often enter street names in username field14:14
DocScrutinizer05ok, we will create a special version for you that doesn't sync birthdays then14:14
DocScrutinizer05btw you also could use default backup app to create a set of tarballs that also contain contacts in vcard format14:16
KotCzarnyit wont be any use for n810 though14:16
DocScrutinizer05I never tried it14:16
DocScrutinizer05it's probably easy enough to extract the plain vcard files from the tarball, to import them on 90% of existing PDA-alike devices14:18
KotCzarnybut not on the n81014:19
KotCzarnyas it only allows importing ONE contact at a time14:19
KotCzarnythat's why bt method could be the only viable one14:19
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I dunno14:28
DocScrutinizer05I never tried it14:28
DocScrutinizer05might offer bulk inport as well, either for multiple files or for a concatenated file14:29
DocScrutinizer05I never used contacts much on diablo14:29
teotwakiMy initial n900 still has its usb intact14:35
teotwakino idea how it survived all this time14:35
KotCzarnyteotwaki: same here14:35
teotwakiespecially considering it's my girlfriend's main driver14:36
teotwakihas been for years now14:36
teotwakiand she's not the... gentle type when she has to plug it in14:36
DocScrutinizer51same here (typing with usb attached is kinda PITA though)14:36
KotCzarnybtw. debian's armel ntpdate works without a hitch on n90014:36
KotCzarnyi had to unpack it manually though14:37
KotCzarnyi hate dependency hell14:37
zGrrLinux is a mess.14:37
DocScrutinizer51not re!ly14:38
zGrrI think so. I think that dependency hell is mostly a linux issue.14:38
DocScrutinizer51teotwaki: MXR yours? (sorry I always forget)14:39
teotwakiDocScrutinizer51: mxr?14:39
KotCzarnyzgrr, ehehe, ever seen winsxs on win vista/7 ?14:39
DocScrutinizer51ooh then prolly not14:39
teotwakizGrr: you mean the windows or apple way of statically linking everything and their brother is such a "cleaner" way?14:39
teotwakiDocScrutinizer51: think we had this discussion already14:39
teotwakiDocScrutinizer51: I had maemo-archive.wedrop.it14:40
KotCzarnyevery app on win 7 has it's OWN copy of libraries14:40
teotwakiwhich is dead now14:40
DocScrutinizer51timeless: mxr is 'empty'14:40
zGrrteotwaki: I don't know Windows, nor Apple.14:40
KotCzarnyapple is like nokia14:40
teotwakizGrr: so your observation of "Linux is a mess" is based on your knowledge in... what? Exactly?14:40
KotCzarnythey got freebsd and patched it to hell in their own way14:40
zGrrteotwaki: I don't remember having as many problems with FreeBSD.14:41
teotwakiMost probably because FreeBSD is still maintained, no?14:41
zGrrteotwaki: I work mostly with z/OS, where problem is non existing.14:41
teotwakiisn't z/OS Linux?14:42
KotCzarnyyou mismatch categories14:42
KotCzarnybsd is NOT freebsd14:42
KotCzarnyand linux is not * linux14:42
KotCzarnyso you are comparing apples to oranges14:42
teotwakiah no, I'm confused with Linux for zServer or something along those lines14:42
zGrrteotwaki: I also think that it could be properly addressed in Linux. It's a question of priorities.14:42
KotCzarnyit's a question of maintainers14:43
KotCzarnystill, ntpdate binary works14:43
teotwakizGrr: again, you're lobbing "Linux is a mess", as if there is only "One True Way" to manage dependencies. I think Debian's way is good. Fedora/CentOS' isn't bad either. It's when you start having users doing stupid things, such as installing badly packaged software, or software packaged for other versions, adding random repositories, that things go apeshit.14:44
KotCzarnyit's only packaging that's incompatible14:44
zGrrteotwaki: yes, we also have Linux on zServers. Linux on Z is a great example of wonderfuly working virtualization.14:45
teotwakiIf you run a "clean" Debian install, you'll *never* encounter dependency issues. Same on CentOS. (Fedora being a bit more bleeding edge might have a few issues sometimes)14:45
KotCzarnyisn't 'usability' the main point of having soft/hardware?14:45
KotCzarnyteotwaki: ever tried 'testing' ?14:45
teotwakinever went for sid, though.14:45
KotCzarnyit borks 100% after a few weeks14:45
KotCzarnyand constantly mismatches autoremove packages14:45
* kerio has been running a sid home server for close to three years now14:45
teotwakican't say I encountered that problem, and ran with it for over 3 years as my daily driver14:45
kerioliterally no problems14:46
kerioand i tinkered with it quite a bit, too14:46
teotwakiThough I switched to Fedora a few months ago.14:46
zGrrteotwaki: yes, you're right. it is a question of a packaging system.14:46
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KotCzarnyi like my device working14:46
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KotCzarnyand doing things i want14:46
KotCzarnyeven if i break it few times14:46
TheOnlyJoey|deskusing Easy Debian, i am getting a 'chroot: cannot execute su: Exec format error' when trying to boot the chroot image, any clue what could fix that?14:47
TheOnlyJoey|deskon n900 btw14:47
DocScrutinizer05maybe ask in #debian ?14:47
zGrrteotwaki: one of my colleagues still uses Slackware. He says, he uses Slackware because it's the only Linux distro that doesn't upset him.14:48
KotCzarnyjoey, bad arch?14:48
* KotCzarny uses slackware14:48
teotwakizGrr: well, whatever "works", really.14:48
TheOnlyJoey|deskKotCzarny, not that i am aware of14:48
KotCzarnyi have installed 4.0 many years ago14:48
KotCzarnystill use the same installation14:48
KotCzarnyjust do pkg updates sometimes14:48
KotCzarnygood luck on debian with that :P14:49
teotwakizGrr: I love how stable Debian is, even on testing. These days, I'm on fedora because I need the newer software, and I'm running hardware that's not quite supported just yet.14:49
DocScrutinizer05I never used easydeb so esxcuse my ignorance: *boot* the chroot image??14:49
KotCzarnyfor hardware you just need custom kernel, right?14:49
teotwakiKotCzarny: I guess, couldn't be bothered after a while.14:50
TheOnlyJoey|deskhmm, is the most recent kernel for the n900 2.6.28-omap1 on armv71?14:50
DocScrutinizer05basically yes14:50
* KotCzarny has
DocScrutinizer05that's same version14:51
KotCzarnyis it?14:51
KotCzarnyit could be few heaps of bugs better14:52
WizzupI don't know how easy debian does it, do they use loop mounts?14:52
TheOnlyJoey|deskhmm the image i am trying to boot is armhf, should that be compatible?14:52
TheOnlyJoey|deskWizzup, well the mounting goes allright, indeed using loop14:52
KotCzarnyarmel for n90014:52
KotCzarnyunless you use custom kernel14:53
TheOnlyJoey|deskKotCzarny, ah so thats my problem then -_-14:53
KotCzarnyand in chroot you deefinitely need armel14:53
DocScrutinizer05TheOnlyJoey|desk: again: BOOT?14:53
TheOnlyJoey|deskDocScrutinizer05, boot?14:53
DocScrutinizer05I don't think you boot a chroot14:53
WizzupYou don't "boot" a chroot, you execute a program in it with a root changed14:54
TheOnlyJoey|deskmeh symantics14:54
KotCzarnyi can imagine booting a chroot14:54
KotCzarnyall it does is mounting few shortcuts and starting few services14:54
DocScrutinizer05aahyes, you can execute init in a chroot14:55
TheOnlyJoey|deskhmm so it seems my options are using a outdated squeeze or a outdated wheezy14:55
TheOnlyJoey|deskKotCzarny, i prefer something working :)14:56
KotCzarnycould be hardcore though14:56
KotCzarnyyou can always build system from a scratch14:56
KotCzarnyall you need is few basic packages14:56
KotCzarnyor just grab some preprepared ramdisk14:57
KotCzarnyand butcher it14:57
TheOnlyJoey|deskmeh going for the 2012 wheezy image then14:57
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KotCzarnyas for rebuilding, you can run distcc in a scratchbox on some powerfull machine15:00
kerioWizzup: well, you "boot" it by mounting the appropriate stuff and running eventual daemons you want15:01
DocScrutinizer05or running init?15:02
WizzupPossibly, I only ever mount /proc /sys /dev and just start bash.15:02
WizzupI don't need X etc from it15:02
WizzupKotCzarny: I was going to put a gentoo chroot on an sd card15:02
WizzupSince I have ready-built binaries anyway15:02
Wizzup(gentoo on sd in the n900, obviously)15:03
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if next kernel update on his PC could use kexec instead of a reboot ;-P15:04
KotCzarnyi pity that nokia didn't opt for using plain x11 with gestures to add touch functionality (system menus, taskbar etc)15:04
DocScrutinizer05but I guess that will nuke all process and filehandle tables15:04
KotCzarnykexec is starting anew15:04
KotCzarnyyou just skipp bios phase15:05
DocScrutinizer05:nod: ;-)15:05
KotCzarnyk, time synced, we will see how much i have to change time in a week15:06
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Maxdamantusinit sometimes doesn't want to run in a "chroot"16:35
teotwakiDocScrutinizer05: ever tried ksplice?16:36
KotCzarnyonly if it needs to be pid 116:36
Maxdamantusparticularly, some init systems behave differently or refuse to work if pid != 116:36
teotwakior kgraft for that matter16:36
MaxdamantusThose supposedly only work for particular changes.16:39
* Maxdamantus hasn't looked into how they actually work.16:39
Maxdamantusbut it has to do with applying patches that actually can be applied, to the running kernel.16:39
KotCzarnybut most of the time init is superfluous on a working system16:40
KotCzarnyie. chrooted one16:40
Maxdamantusmuch of init systems seems to be superfluous.16:40
teotwakiMaxdamantus: I'm not quite sure about that16:42
teotwakiMaxdamantus: I know we've been running ksplice in production for a few years, no matter the kernel change, you just need to spend a bit of (CPU) time diff'ing the running kernel and the new one.16:43
teotwakiI just have absolutely no first hand experience, and was wondering from a personal computer standpoint if there was any point or not at all.16:43
Maxdamantusteotwaki: but you probably can't just use arbitrary kernels.16:43
teotwakiMaxdamantus: define arbitrary kernels?16:44
Maxdamantusteotwaki: switch to a kernel specified by something in the mainline tree.16:44
Maxdamantusspecified by a mainline tree*16:45
MaxdamantusAt best, you'll be able to apply parts that are flagged as applicable.16:45
KotCzarnyk, bye folks16:45
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MaxdamantusYou can't just say, replace the running ext4 driver with a new one.16:46
Maxdamantuswithout remounting the filesystems.16:46
Maxdamantusunless something says the changes are applicable.16:46
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MaxdamantusIt seems to be focused on providing security patches.16:47
Maxdamantusnot switching between kernels.16:47
Maxdamantus“An evaluation against Linux kernel security patches from May 2005 to May 2008 found that Ksplice was able to apply fixes for all the 64 significant kernel vulnerabilities discovered in that interval”16:48
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teotwaki"While kGraft is, by choice, limited to replacing whole functions and constants they reference, this does not limit the set of code patches that can be applied significantly.  kGraft will offer tools to assist in creating the live patch modules, identifying which functions need to be replaced based on a patch, and creating the patch module source code."16:48
Maxdamantus“For patches that do introduce semantic changes to data structures, Ksplice requires a programmer to write a short amount of additional code to help apply the patch”16:48
MaxdamantusSo it's fairly ad-hoc.16:49
teotwakiSo it would appear both kgraft and ksplice do impose limitations on what can or can't be patched.16:49
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kerioteotwaki: you can't ksplice linux and turn it into hurd17:18
keriounless you do it veeeeery gradually, i guess17:18
timelessDocScrutinizer51: yeah, i need to look into that17:19
timelessbeen fairly busy17:20
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timelessconsider the investigation started17:21
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timelessDocScrutinizer51: ok, so, the data directory for mxr seems to be missing17:59
timelesswe'll see about investigating18:00
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: you're in the council, lol18:18
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DocScrutinizer51timeless: thanks18:39
DocScrutinizer51kerio: yeah, I'm a jackass, no?18:40
kerioyou done fucked up now!18:41
DocScrutinizer51please rephrase18:42
DocScrutinizer51I done wut?18:42
DocScrutinizer51I been almost done with maemo yesterday already, when tmo mod htheb - instead of moving thread with 4 mouseclicks according to my request - went to epic length of writing a 100 char post to explin that I'm pestering mods18:46
DocScrutinizer51spamming, actually18:46
DocScrutinizer51after jalyst explained me in public and PM that it's my duty to ask mods for such thread move18:48
DocScrutinizer51maybe it's not too late to hold the record for the shortest council term participation ever?18:50
DocScrutinizer51when I hurry I may manage to step down before juiceme managed to post the official election results18:52
DocScrutinizer51would that count as a negative timespan?18:52
keriojuice already sent the mail to the ML18:54
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louisdkHas it been discussed to make a mobile version of tmo?21:46
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louisdksixwheeledbeast, the good thing about a website optimized for mobile is that it could be used on other platforms like Sailfish. Sadly that app is only for Maemo/MeeGo.22:18
sixwheeledbeastlouisdk: I agree a mobile skin would be good. Tapatalk was talked about too. TBH in microB TMO works fine.22:22
louisdksixwheeledbeast, I have to zoom a lot on mobile browser, but is doable :)22:24
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Snafu777_Ok, so i create my own application23:41
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Snafu777_For one application it is done as root:root for chown23:41
Snafu777_that application works dandy23:41
Snafu777_now that i tried this one as root:root, it doesnt wanna f'in launch23:42
Snafu777_what gives23:42
Snafu777_How can one permission set for all root work just fine, and the other doesnt23:42
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