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| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: could i ask the n900 phone lock is errased with reflash the device? | 12:02 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | only when you do full reflash | 12:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | incl the eMMC | 12:03 |
| drathir | ok thats great... | 12:03 |
| * drathir need think about but maybe buy new one n900, not worth fix current one i guess... | 12:04 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you however could flash rootfs-only with a PR1.1.1 fiasco and thus regain control of the device incl the data on eMMC | 12:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | then scavenge all the data from eMMC, run the lockcode hack to discover the code that's set, then reset the code to whatever you like, and then reflash to PR1.3.1 | 12:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~lockcode | 12:06 |
| infobot | [lockcode] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post524522 | 12:06 |
| drathir | current one i will save for neo900 replace in future maybe... And that one what i think to buy is locked by mistake and key forgotten, ofc warranty not valid and prove of buy the phone with box+imei with phone that low chance is stolen one... | 12:07 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 makes a mental note to kick out that closed blob for lockcode management for neo-fremantle, and replace it by owns stuff eventually | 12:08 | |
| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: oh wow even easier method, but i guess if i buy i goin to be sure no malicious staff inside and do full reflash, but for check before i try that second method too... | 12:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good plan, yes! | 12:09 |
| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: yes its great idea to improve security too... | 12:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, that's on my private todo list for Neo900, but we will start without any special OS support, beyond a debian with BSP to show/check the new functions | 12:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 isn't a complete product like Nokia N900 been, with an OS provided by manufacturer and not really meant to run anything else on it | 12:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we (Neo900 UG) are a mere hw manufacturer, like Asus for your PC motherboard | 12:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | up to you to pick the OS of your choice and install it | 12:13 |
| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: /me like testing the new ideas always... | 12:15 |
| drathir | mostly when thats great ideas and no other similar alternatives... | 12:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | by the time Neo900 sales start, there most likely will be replicant and SHR as OS choices already, and Neo-fremantle hopefully already in the beta phase where most basic stuff works sufficiently well for daily use | 12:18 |
| * drathir thinks its insane that android need 4cores cpus and running also with no problems on one core w/o gpu acceleration... | 12:18 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, comsider one to two of the CPUs always being busy with modem firmware radiostack | 12:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you take that fact into account, it's not surprising that those devices need at least dualcore to run properly | 12:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | form the chip manufacturer's POV the whole user OS is just of minor relevance, as long as the modem radio stack just works | 12:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then they eventually noticed that this concept tends to not work that great when you for example want to stream a video from UMTS to your phone screen | 12:22 |
| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: oh that good points didnt know that, always thinks that radio have hw acceleration and os side only sent command to it... | 12:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so... bingo, we need multicore SoC | 12:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's true for N900 and Neo900, but hardly for any other smartphone you can buy today | 12:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jolla for example using a snapdragon SoC that shares the CPUs between radio stack aka modem and the user OS | 12:24 |
| * drathir need to add on my virt list that point in place whay like n900 ^^ | 12:24 | |
| drathir | why* | 12:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically every Samsung and younameit-otherBrand does exactly same approach of sharing CPU and RAM | 12:25 |
| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: for me its strange behaviour a little exclude in case that is more cheap solution... | 12:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what's even worse: this sharing of CPU and RAM allows modem firmware to gain *complete* control over the whole device | 12:26 |
| drathir | true | 12:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and to protect modem firmware from user OS gaining control over it, you have all sorts of nasty stuff in hardware that blocks what you can do on user OS | 12:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | of course such protection always works only one direction, there's always one party that is in control of the safety blocks and one party that gets controlled by the safety blocks. That's *always* like modem firmware is the master and user OS is the controlled one | 12:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in N(eo)900 we have a simple sort of "protection": we use two separate systems, one for modem and one for linux, and they are linked only by 4 datalines for some sort of serial data transfer | 12:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 12:31 |
| drathir | that sounds scarry to me... ;/ i more prefer that user have full controll on the parts, even if os infected thats only user fault... | 12:31 |
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| drathir | DocScrutinizer05: thats should be and also if needed that connection should be disabled ofc... | 12:33 |
| drathir | and i guess is better monitoring something if that have only short possibility to interaction and not full shared control... | 12:35 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: why do modern smartphone makers do it this way, then? | 12:49 |
| kerio | to save on costs? | 12:49 |
| kerio | would it really cost that much more to run the radio on a separate chip? | 12:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 12:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it costs a $$$ and quite some real estate | 12:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | see for example N900: it has BB5 aka RapuYama chip (analog toOMAP3430), Gazoo (analog Gaia aka TWL4030), it needs RAM, and flash storage. That's 4 rather large and complex (and expensive) chips that you don't need on a integrated design where modem uses the already existing CPU and companion chip and RAM and storage | 13:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's also 4 chips less to cram into your case | 13:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a OMAP3430 costs ~30USD, a companion chip maybe 20, storage and RAM isn't for free either | 13:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then you need PCB real estate for the whole stuff | 13:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | in the end it can save you 20..40% of your BOM cost | 13:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now think about EE R&D going stingy about a chip for 1USD already, then you know how much is the pressure to reduce cost | 13:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | heck that's easily a 50USD you can save *per device*! On your own manufacturing costs. Usually device manufacturers don't earn a 50 bucks per device at all | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the market is tough | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your new device has to be 0.5mm slimmer than the competition, and a 5 bucks cheaper | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | none of the average joe customers understands that a decent design costs real hard bucks to pay for it | 13:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | remember the discussions "OOOH NOES why has Neo900 to be THAT expensive?" while it's actually almost same price like the N900 been 5 years ago | 13:13 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | .o0(that extra chips will also drain power) | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nowadays that crap has to be cheap, no matter how EE odes it | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Humpelst1lzchen: a tiny bit but way less than you might think | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | does* | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it | 13:14 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | oh, and how much do I think? | 13:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's not so much difference between a dualcore and tow separate cores when it comes to power consumption | 13:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | two* | 13:15 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: FR: dual core | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmß | 13:16 |
| Katajakasa | neo900 ... Had to google that. You guys are actually making a new n-series phone? Is it going to have some OS bundled ? | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-07-13 Sun 11:13:13] <DocScrutinizer05> we (Neo900 UG) are a mere hw manufacturer, like Asus for your PC motherboard | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-07-13 Sun 11:12:31] <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 isn't a complete product like Nokia N900 been, with an OS provided by manufacturer and not really meant to run anything else on it | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-07-13 Sun 11:13:37] <DocScrutinizer05> up to you to pick the OS of your choice and install it | 13:17 |
| kerio | Katajakasa: i think nseries is a nokia trademark | 13:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 | 13:18 |
| Katajakasa | Yup, i just found the thread, reading. | 13:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, then you're busy the rest of this weekend | 13:19 |
| kerio | lol | 13:19 |
| Katajakasa | :D | 13:19 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: feature request: fart apps | 13:19 |
| Katajakasa | It says in the post that the hardware is open... But how about drivers for that hw ? | 13:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | build your own one | 13:20 |
| kerio | open hardware usually means open drivers | 13:20 |
| Katajakasa | not necessarily ... | 13:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, necessary | 13:20 |
| kerio | hell, it's what it means | 13:20 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | .oO(unless you want to use the graphic card) | 13:20 |
| kerio | i doubt we have exact schematics for the omap SoC | 13:20 |
| kerio | you can't build your own | 13:20 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | you have the registers of the omap in the TRM and Linux also runs on it | 13:21 |
| kerio | Katajakasa: actually | 13:21 |
| kerio | what definition of "open hardware" do you have that means that there can be no drivers? | 13:22 |
| Katajakasa | Schematics etc. can be open, but you can have closed blobs (like graphics accelerator) | 13:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we don't have open driver for the GFX-3D | 13:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SHR runs fine without it | 13:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | replicant too | 13:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for Neo-fremantle I hope every user can revamp the drivers of the N900-fremantle he owns | 13:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please read http://neo900.org - it's all there | 13:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we openly explain what's open | 13:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 13:25 |
| Katajakasa | Oh, there are links on the right side of the nav bar, too | 13:26 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | well with the n900 blob we are forced to stay on the old xorg/kernel release..but lets worry about that later | 13:27 |
| Katajakasa | I don't even own the original N900 :P | 13:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#floss | 13:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Katajakasa: too bad, you probably need a N900 owner to share his binaries with you then | 13:29 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | ^that shouldn't be a problem... | 13:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since I guess it's "illegal" to download the fiasco images when you don't own a N900 | 13:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr13^1 | 13:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pr131 | 13:30 |
| infobot | combined is, like, the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ | 13:30 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | uhm | 13:31 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | btw | 13:31 |
| Humpelst1lzchen | should be backup the image before nokia is loosing them? | 13:31 |
| Katajakasa | I know some people who have N900, it probably wouldn't be a problem | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~combined | 13:33 |
| infobot | i heard combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ | 13:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~emmc | 13:33 |
| infobot | hmm... emmc is magnet:?xt=urn:btih:402fb5cc8a48ecbc18a77c9cf70d869a775bcf53&dn=RX-51%5F2009SE%5F10.2010.13-2.VANILLA%5FPR%5FEMMC%5FMR0%5FARM.bin or https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105928/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.torrent, or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2010/5/--FID--A0A22YHFSICNA/--LID--FiRe1275051276916/AE98ED9D_RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin | 13:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~flasher | 13:33 |
| infobot | flasher is probably at http://www.jedge.com/n810/flasher/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz (also .exe!), or http://www.chakra-project.org/ccr/packages.php?ID=5027 or generally http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz. HARMattan(N9): https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fl/flasher-harmattan/flasher-harmattan.tar.gz, or -- list of filenames/md5sums: http://pastebin.com/sYKdNJSH, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ | 13:33 |
| Katajakasa | DM3730, so the graphics chip should be SGX530 ... maybe there is some hope. http://powervr.gnu.org.ve/doku.php :/ | 13:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, there's some 2hope" | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/2/"/ | 13:34 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: yes, there's some "hope" | 13:34 |
| kerio | 2hope4me | 13:34 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: https://maemo.org/ doesn't work | 13:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so? how I'm related? | 13:37 |
| kerio | you're an op in #maemo! | 13:37 |
| kerio | i think | 13:37 |
| kerio | eyup | 13:37 |
| kerio | and it's also always your fault, anyway | 13:37 |
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| kerio | mh, apparently the ocsp server doesn't know wtf that certificate is supposed to be | 13:39 |
| kerio | because it's expired | 13:39 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: https://maemo.org/ doesn't work due to expired ssl cert | 13:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | known issue, but not my problem | 13:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw for me it works just fine | 13:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not using google spyware ;-) | 13:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | konqueror just tells me that the cert is invalid, and asks me whether to accrept it for this session only or forever | 13:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the certs are a problem since the times Nokia transferred the servers and stewardship to community, but not the ownership to the domain. You can't easily buy a SSL wildcard cert when you're not admin-c of the domain | 13:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which, honstly, is the sole purpose of certs | 13:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | asl hildon foundation what's status of those obscure negotiations that allegedly happen between HiFo and Nokia sincce almost 2 years | 13:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ask, even | 13:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw that's also the reason why mxr.maemo.org doesn't work anymore | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DNS record fubar | 13:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal combined | 13:56 |
| infobot | "combined" is "the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/" | 13:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~tabletsdev | 13:56 |
| infobot | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ or http://tabletsdev.maemo.org | 13:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~no, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/ | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | infobot: no, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/ | 13:58 |
| infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Humpelst1lzchen: ^^^ | 14:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Devices/NokiaN900/InstallGuide isn't really up to date | 14:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~tabletsdev is also http://www.mmnt.net/db/0/0/93.81.63.203/repositories/skeiron.org/skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads | 14:07 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay | 14:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~tabletsdev | 14:07 |
| infobot | from memory, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/, or http://www.mmnt.net/db/0/0/93.81.63.203/repositories/skeiron.org/skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads | 14:07 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05 | 14:10 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet" | 14:10 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer05 | 14:10 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~factinfo tabletsdev | 14:11 |
| infobot | tabletsdev -- created by DocScrutinizer05 <~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Tue Aug 27 21:07:53 2013 (319 days); last modified 3m 46s ago by DocScrutinizer05!~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 9 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 3m 29s ago. | 14:11 |
| dos1 | when I last tried, I couldn't get recent SHR images to boot on N900 | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how comes? | 14:17 |
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| dos1 | no one maintaining it | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | shouldn't bitrot | 14:19 |
| dos1 | no one actually testing it and reporting bugs in time | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's supposed to be self-comprisng, nore or less, no? | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | more* or less | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kernel? | 14:20 |
| dos1 | afair it didn't want to mount partition on my device | 14:20 |
| dos1 | but I didn't look further into it | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, that could actually be low level kernel stuff maybe | 14:21 |
| dos1 | I'm not even sure which kernel SHR is using on N900 | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I bet on KP | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what else? | 14:22 |
| dos1 | I think it was some newer kernel version, from some meego porting project of smth like that | 14:22 |
| dos1 | KP is probably already too old for current OE userspace | 14:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | umm, $ curl -O http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/k/kernel/kernel_2.6.28-20103103+0m5_armel.deb | 14:23 |
| dos1 | maybe I should try freemangordon's kernel :P | 14:23 |
| dos1 | SHR will be probably much more happy with it than Maemo | 14:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno | 14:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe, but it for sure should learn to operate a few peripherals first | 14:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like camera or even audio | 14:25 |
| dos1 | still better than not booting at all ;) | 14:26 |
| dos1 | but anyway, playing with that has rather low priority on my todo list | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not booting doesn't make sense in my book | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whatever, when the howto suggests to download stuff from tabletsdev then people most likely will fal with that hurdle already | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fail* | 14:27 |
| dos1 | howto is already out of date with more than just tabletsdev | 14:27 |
| dos1 | it would need complete rewrite | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then it's even worse | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe leave in the >>Download the Flasher 3.5 from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php?f=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz<< hen, so users notice how useless it is | 14:29 |
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| dos1 | there is a possibility that starting with the next month I might have more time for gta0x/n900/neo900 hacking, so I may look into that a bit deeper than "meh, doesn't boot :(" | 14:32 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: we can just get certs for every subdomain | 14:34 |
| kerio | the startcom CA is in pretty much every modern-ish OS | 14:34 |
| kerio | and startssl gives certs for free | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I did that some 16 months or so ago, those expired and I received bashing why the certs were on *my* name rather than HiFo | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I want *<finger>* and now it's up to dinnowhom to get new certs | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | went* | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I really really don't care | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the signature with the fat red EX- before "admin coordinator" and the "(stepped down due to bullying)" is tehre for a reason | 14:38 |
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| kerio | https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=maemo.org i didn't even know "T" was a rating | 15:11 |
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