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drathirDocScrutinizer05: could i ask the n900 phone lock is errased with reflash the device?12:02
DocScrutinizer05only when you do full reflash12:03
DocScrutinizer05incl the eMMC12:03
drathirok thats great...12:03
* drathir need think about but maybe buy new one n900, not worth fix current one i guess...12:04
DocScrutinizer05you however could flash rootfs-only with a PR1.1.1 fiasco and thus regain control of the device incl the data on eMMC12:04
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DocScrutinizer05then scavenge all the data from eMMC, run the lockcode hack to discover the code that's set, then reset the code to whatever you like, and then reflash to PR1.3.112:06
DocScrutinizer05~lockcode12:06
infobot[lockcode] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post52452212:06
drathircurrent one i will save for neo900 replace in future maybe... And that one what i think to buy is locked by mistake and key forgotten, ofc warranty not valid and prove of buy the phone with box+imei with phone that low chance is stolen one...12:07
* DocScrutinizer05 makes a mental note to kick out that closed blob for lockcode management for neo-fremantle, and replace it by owns stuff eventually12:08
drathirDocScrutinizer05: oh wow even easier method, but i guess  if i buy i goin to be sure no malicious staff inside and do full reflash, but for check before i try that second method too...12:08
DocScrutinizer05good plan, yes!12:09
drathirDocScrutinizer05: yes its great idea to improve security too...12:09
DocScrutinizer05well, that's on my private todo list for Neo900, but we will start without any special OS support, beyond a debian with BSP to show/check the new functions12:11
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DocScrutinizer05Neo900 isn't a complete product like Nokia N900 been, with an OS provided by manufacturer and not really meant to run anything else on it12:12
DocScrutinizer05we (Neo900 UG) are a mere hw manufacturer, like Asus for your PC motherboard12:13
DocScrutinizer05up to you to pick the OS of your choice and install it12:13
drathirDocScrutinizer05: /me like testing the new ideas always...12:15
drathirmostly when thats great ideas and no other similar alternatives...12:17
DocScrutinizer05by the time Neo900 sales start, there most likely will be replicant and SHR as OS choices already, and Neo-fremantle hopefully already in the beta phase where most basic stuff works sufficiently well for daily use12:18
* drathir thinks its insane that android need 4cores cpus and running also with no problems on one core w/o gpu acceleration...12:18
DocScrutinizer05well, comsider one to two of the CPUs always being busy with modem firmware radiostack12:19
DocScrutinizer05when you take that fact into account, it's not surprising that those devices need at least dualcore to run properly12:20
DocScrutinizer05form the chip manufacturer's POV the whole user OS is just of minor relevance, as long as the modem radio stack just works12:21
DocScrutinizer05then they eventually noticed that this concept tends to not work that great when you for example want to stream a video from UMTS to your phone screen12:22
drathirDocScrutinizer05: oh that good points didnt know that, always thinks that radio have hw acceleration and os side only sent command to it...12:22
DocScrutinizer05so... bingo, we need multicore SoC12:22
DocScrutinizer05yes, that's true for N900 and Neo900, but hardly for any other smartphone you can buy today12:23
DocScrutinizer05jolla for example using a snapdragon SoC that shares the CPUs between radio stack aka modem and the user OS12:24
* drathir need to add on my virt list that point in place whay like n900 ^^12:24
drathirwhy*12:25
DocScrutinizer05basically every Samsung and younameit-otherBrand does exactly same approach of sharing CPU and RAM12:25
drathirDocScrutinizer05: for me its strange behaviour a little exclude in case that is more cheap solution...12:26
DocScrutinizer05what's even worse: this sharing of CPU and RAM allows modem firmware to gain *complete* control over the whole device12:26
drathirtrue12:26
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DocScrutinizer05and to protect modem firmware from user OS gaining control over it, you have all sorts of nasty stuff in hardware that blocks what you can do on user OS12:28
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DocScrutinizer05of course such protection always works only one direction, there's always one party that is in control of the safety blocks and one party that gets controlled by the safety blocks. That's *always* like modem firmware is the master and user OS is the controlled one12:29
DocScrutinizer05in N(eo)900 we have a simple sort of "protection": we use two separate systems, one for modem and one for linux, and they are linked only by 4 datalines for some sort of serial data transfer12:31
DocScrutinizer05:-)12:31
drathirthat sounds scarry to me... ;/ i more prefer that user have full controll on the parts, even if os infected thats only user fault...12:31
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drathirDocScrutinizer05: thats should be and also if needed that connection should be disabled ofc...12:33
drathirand i guess is better monitoring something if that have only short possibility to interaction and not full shared control...12:35
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: why do modern smartphone makers do it this way, then?12:49
kerioto save on costs?12:49
keriowould it really cost that much more to run the radio on a separate chip?12:49
DocScrutinizer05yes12:56
DocScrutinizer05it costs a $$$ and quite some real estate12:57
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DocScrutinizer05see for example N900: it has BB5 aka RapuYama chip (analog toOMAP3430), Gazoo (analog Gaia aka TWL4030), it needs RAM, and flash storage. That's 4 rather large and complex (and expensive) chips that you don't need on a integrated design where modem uses the already existing CPU and companion chip and RAM and storage13:02
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DocScrutinizer05it's also 4 chips less to cram into your case13:03
DocScrutinizer05a OMAP3430 costs ~30USD, a companion chip maybe 20, storage and RAM isn't for free either13:05
DocScrutinizer05then you need PCB real estate for the whole stuff13:06
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DocScrutinizer05in the end it can save you 20..40% of your BOM cost13:06
DocScrutinizer05now think about EE R&D going stingy about a chip for 1USD already, then you know how much is the pressure to reduce cost13:07
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DocScrutinizer05heck that's easily a 50USD you can save *per device*! On your own manufacturing costs. Usually device manufacturers don't earn a 50 bucks per device at all13:10
DocScrutinizer05the market is tough13:10
DocScrutinizer05your new device has to be 0.5mm slimmer than the competition, and a 5 bucks cheaper13:11
DocScrutinizer05none of the average joe customers understands that a decent design costs real hard bucks to pay for it13:12
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DocScrutinizer05remember the discussions "OOOH NOES why has Neo900 to be THAT expensive?" while it's actually almost same price like the N900 been 5 years ago13:13
Humpelst1lzchen.o0(that extra chips will also drain power)13:14
DocScrutinizer05nowadays that crap has to be cheap, no matter how EE odes it13:14
DocScrutinizer05Humpelst1lzchen: a tiny bit but way less than you might think13:14
DocScrutinizer05does*13:14
DocScrutinizer05it13:14
Humpelst1lzchenoh, and how much do I think?13:15
DocScrutinizer05there's not so much difference between a dualcore and tow separate cores when it comes to power consumption13:15
DocScrutinizer05two*13:15
kerioDocScrutinizer05: FR: dual core13:16
DocScrutinizer05hmm├č13:16
Katajakasaneo900 ... Had to google that. You guys are actually making a new n-series phone? Is it going to have some OS bundled ?13:16
DocScrutinizer05no13:16
DocScrutinizer05[2014-07-13 Sun 11:13:13] <DocScrutinizer05> we (Neo900 UG) are a mere hw manufacturer, like Asus for your PC motherboard13:17
DocScrutinizer05[2014-07-13 Sun 11:12:31] <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 isn't a complete product like Nokia N900 been, with an OS provided by manufacturer and not really meant to run anything else on it13:17
DocScrutinizer05[2014-07-13 Sun 11:13:37] <DocScrutinizer05> up to you to pick the OS of your choice and install it13:17
kerioKatajakasa: i think nseries is a nokia trademark13:18
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9114213:18
KatajakasaYup, i just found the thread, reading.13:19
DocScrutinizer05ooh, then you're busy the rest of this weekend13:19
keriolol13:19
Katajakasa:D13:19
kerioDocScrutinizer05: feature request: fart apps13:19
KatajakasaIt says in the post that the hardware is open... But how about drivers for that hw ?13:20
DocScrutinizer05build your own one13:20
kerioopen hardware usually means open drivers13:20
Katajakasanot necessarily ...13:20
DocScrutinizer05yes, necessary13:20
keriohell, it's what it means13:20
Humpelst1lzchen.oO(unless you want to use the graphic card)13:20
kerioi doubt we have exact schematics for the omap SoC13:20
kerioyou can't build your own13:20
Humpelst1lzchenyou have the registers of the omap in the TRM and Linux also runs on it13:21
kerioKatajakasa: actually13:21
keriowhat definition of "open hardware" do you have that means that there can be no drivers?13:22
KatajakasaSchematics etc. can be open, but you can have closed blobs (like graphics accelerator)13:22
DocScrutinizer05we don't have open driver for the GFX-3D13:23
DocScrutinizer05SHR runs fine without it13:23
DocScrutinizer05replicant too13:24
DocScrutinizer05for Neo-fremantle I hope every user can revamp the drivers of the N900-fremantle he owns13:24
DocScrutinizer05please read http://neo900.org - it's all there13:25
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DocScrutinizer05we openly explain what's open13:25
DocScrutinizer05:-)13:25
KatajakasaOh, there are links on the right side of the nav bar, too13:26
Humpelst1lzchenwell with the n900 blob we are forced to stay on the old xorg/kernel release..but lets worry about that later13:27
KatajakasaI don't even own the original N900 :P13:27
DocScrutinizer05http://neo900.org/faq#floss13:28
DocScrutinizer05Katajakasa: too bad, you probably need a N900 owner to share his binaries with you then13:29
Humpelst1lzchen^that shouldn't be a problem...13:30
DocScrutinizer05since I guess it's "illegal" to download the fiasco images when you don't own a N90013:30
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DocScrutinizer05~pr13^113:30
DocScrutinizer05~pr13113:30
infobotcombined is, like, the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/13:30
Humpelst1lzchenuhm13:31
Humpelst1lzchenbtw13:31
Humpelst1lzchenshould be backup the image before nokia is loosing them?13:31
KatajakasaI know some people who have N900, it probably wouldn't be a problem13:31
DocScrutinizer05~combined13:33
infoboti heard combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/13:33
DocScrutinizer05~emmc13:33
infobothmm... emmc is magnet:?xt=urn:btih:402fb5cc8a48ecbc18a77c9cf70d869a775bcf53&dn=RX-51%5F2009SE%5F10.2010.13-2.VANILLA%5FPR%5FEMMC%5FMR0%5FARM.bin or https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105928/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.torrent, or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2010/5/--FID--A0A22YHFSICNA/--LID--FiRe1275051276916/AE98ED9D_RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin13:33
DocScrutinizer05~flasher13:33
infobotflasher is probably at http://www.jedge.com/n810/flasher/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz (also .exe!), or http://www.chakra-project.org/ccr/packages.php?ID=5027 or generally http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz.   HARMattan(N9): https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fl/flasher-harmattan/flasher-harmattan.tar.gz, or -- list of filenames/md5sums: http://pastebin.com/sYKdNJSH, or http://galif.eu/nokia/13:33
KatajakasaDM3730, so the graphics chip should be SGX530 ... maybe there is some hope. http://powervr.gnu.org.ve/doku.php :/13:33
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DocScrutinizer05yes, there's some 2hope"13:34
DocScrutinizer05s/2/"/13:34
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: yes, there's some "hope"13:34
kerio2hope4me13:34
kerioDocScrutinizer05: https://maemo.org/ doesn't work13:36
DocScrutinizer05so? how I'm related?13:37
kerioyou're an op in #maemo!13:37
kerioi think13:37
kerioeyup13:37
kerioand it's also always your fault, anyway13:37
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keriomh, apparently the ocsp server doesn't know wtf that certificate is supposed to be13:39
keriobecause it's expired13:39
kerioDocScrutinizer05: https://maemo.org/ doesn't work due to expired ssl cert13:39
DocScrutinizer05known issue, but not my problem13:40
DocScrutinizer05btw for me it works just fine13:40
DocScrutinizer05I'm not using google spyware ;-)13:41
DocScrutinizer05konqueror just tells me that the cert is invalid, and asks me whether to accrept it for this session only or forever13:41
DocScrutinizer05the certs are a problem since the times Nokia transferred the servers and stewardship to community, but not the ownership to the domain. You can't easily buy a SSL wildcard cert when you're not admin-c of the domain13:43
DocScrutinizer05which, honstly, is the sole purpose of certs13:44
DocScrutinizer05asl hildon foundation what's status of those obscure negotiations that allegedly happen between HiFo and Nokia sincce almost 2 years13:46
DocScrutinizer05ask, even13:46
DocScrutinizer05btw that's also the reason why mxr.maemo.org doesn't work anymore13:47
DocScrutinizer05DNS record fubar13:48
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DocScrutinizer05~literal combined13:56
infobot"combined" is "the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/"13:56
DocScrutinizer05~tabletsdev13:56
infobothttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/  http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev ,  http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ or http://tabletsdev.maemo.org13:56
DocScrutinizer05~no, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/  http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev ,  http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/13:58
DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/  http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev ,  http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/13:58
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0513:58
DocScrutinizer05Humpelst1lzchen: ^^^14:00
DocScrutinizer05dos1: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Devices/NokiaN900/InstallGuide isn't really up to date14:03
DocScrutinizer05~tabletsdev is also http://www.mmnt.net/db/0/0/93.81.63.203/repositories/skeiron.org/skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads14:07
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay14:07
DocScrutinizer05~tabletsdev14:07
infobotfrom memory, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/  http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev ,  http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/, or http://www.mmnt.net/db/0/0/93.81.63.203/repositories/skeiron.org/skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads14:07
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*** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | "firmware" see ~tabletsdev ~combined ~emmc ~flasher sdk: ~sb | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet"14:10
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DocScrutinizer05~factinfo tabletsdev14:11
infobottabletsdev -- created by DocScrutinizer05 <~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Tue Aug 27 21:07:53 2013 (319 days); last modified 3m 46s ago  by DocScrutinizer05!~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 9 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 3m 29s ago.14:11
dos1when I last tried, I couldn't get recent SHR images to boot on N90014:13
DocScrutinizer05hmm14:16
DocScrutinizer05how comes?14:17
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dos1no one maintaining it14:19
DocScrutinizer05shouldn't bitrot14:19
dos1no one actually testing it and reporting bugs in time14:19
DocScrutinizer05it's supposed to be self-comprisng, nore or less, no?14:19
DocScrutinizer05more* or less14:20
DocScrutinizer05kernel?14:20
dos1afair it didn't want to mount partition on my device14:20
dos1but I didn't look further into it14:21
DocScrutinizer05o.O14:21
DocScrutinizer05oooh, that could actually be low level kernel stuff maybe14:21
dos1I'm not even sure which kernel SHR is using on N90014:21
DocScrutinizer05I bet on KP14:21
DocScrutinizer05what else?14:22
dos1I think it was some newer kernel version, from some meego porting project of smth like that14:22
dos1KP is probably already too old for current OE userspace14:22
DocScrutinizer05umm, $ curl -O http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/k/kernel/kernel_2.6.28-20103103+0m5_armel.deb14:23
dos1maybe I should try freemangordon's kernel :P14:23
dos1SHR will be probably much more happy with it than Maemo14:24
DocScrutinizer05dunno14:25
DocScrutinizer05maybe, but it for sure should learn to operate a few peripherals first14:25
DocScrutinizer05like camera or even audio14:25
dos1still better than not booting at all ;)14:26
dos1but anyway, playing with that has rather low priority on my todo list14:26
DocScrutinizer05not booting doesn't make sense in my book14:26
DocScrutinizer05whatever, when the howto suggests to download stuff from tabletsdev then people most likely will fal with that hurdle already14:27
DocScrutinizer05fail*14:27
dos1howto is already out of date with more than just tabletsdev14:27
dos1it would need complete rewrite14:28
DocScrutinizer05mhm14:28
DocScrutinizer05then it's even worse14:28
DocScrutinizer05maybe leave in the >>Download the Flasher 3.5 from  http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php?f=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz<< hen, so users notice how useless it is14:29
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dos1there is a possibility that starting with the next month I might have more time for gta0x/n900/neo900 hacking, so I may look into that a bit deeper than "meh, doesn't boot :("14:32
kerioDocScrutinizer05: we can just get certs for every subdomain14:34
keriothe startcom CA is in pretty much every modern-ish OS14:34
kerioand startssl gives certs for free14:34
DocScrutinizer05I did that some 16 months or so ago, those expired and I received bashing why the certs were on *my* name rather than HiFo14:35
DocScrutinizer05so I want *<finger>* and now it's up to dinnowhom to get new certs14:35
DocScrutinizer05went*14:35
DocScrutinizer05I really really don't care14:36
DocScrutinizer05the signature with the fat red  EX- before "admin coordinator" and the "(stepped down due to bullying)" is tehre for a reason14:38
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keriohttps://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=maemo.org i didn't even know "T" was a rating15:11
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