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| DocScrutinizer05 | FFS!!!! we AGAIN are sending out mails to deleted garage accounts | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WHO CREATED THAT ELECTORATE TABLE?? WHO CHECKED IT FOR PLAUSIBILITY? | 00:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | some poor fellow receiving a ballot for 3rd time now, for a garage account he deleted years ago | 00:46 |
| bencoh | looks like you cant leave maemo :> | 00:50 |
| Luke-Jr | I don't think I got a ballot :o | 00:54 |
| Luke-Jr | otoh, I'd probably have ignored it | 00:54 |
| sixwheeledbeast | you can't "leave" maemo. It's infra doesn't allow it | 01:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: don't tell that a lawyer. We are legally obliged to delete all privacy data on request | 01:06 |
| bencoh | :] | 01:08 |
| sixwheeledbeast | "on request" that's fine, it just can't be done automagically | 01:08 |
| sixwheeledbeast | so it seems | 01:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that guy requested it 3rd time now | 01:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | plus what's worse: this incident/problem suggests that our electorate list wasn't updated at all, so we also might not see anybody voting who joined community during last 18 months | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I elaborated on this, in #maemo-meeting | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and in ##maemo-admin | 01:23 |
| ShadowJK | Considering that maemo is in a process of constant downsizing, it would probably make sense to change this election thing | 01:29 |
| ShadowJK | Longer terms | 01:29 |
| ShadowJK | .. fewer elects? | 01:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, maemo council should actually "reinvent" itself and drive a movement towards a community discussion resulting in new rules and council definition suggested in a referendum | 01:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm afraid we already missed the point in time where council had enough power, knowledge, experience, and endurance to make that happen | 01:37 |
| ShadowJK | I'm not familiar with rules of anything, but I would've thought they could do that at any time | 01:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do what exactly? | 01:38 |
| ShadowJK | Redefine itself | 01:38 |
| sixwheeledbeast | the knowledge and experience is the key here | 01:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fun collateral effect: this would introduce massive problems with HiFo bylaws and probably also that new e.V. | 01:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while the council can change own rules via referendum any time (given somebody has the drive to do so), same does probably NOT apply to HiFo bylaws which got a copy of those council rules | 01:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly, I outright refuse to even start thinking about that, and what it would ensue | 01:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and we don't even have a fully working infra to do a proper referendum, as you can see in above few dozen lines | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly maemo orga has tripped the point of no return towards a zombie state already | 01:46 |
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| brolin_empey | My Nokia N900 has been retired in favour of my Geeksphone Revolution. | 08:57 |
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| kerio | :( | 09:08 |
| kerio | no keyboard | 09:08 |
| kerio | no real linux | 09:08 |
| kerio | The Revolution is not only more powerful than most, but also a first-of-its-kind. Geeksphone MultiOS technology allows you to choose your operating system. | 09:09 |
| kerio | >first-of-its-kind | 09:09 |
| kerio | u wot m8 | 09:09 |
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| hurrian | booting another system that runs on top of the Android hardware adaptation doesn't count! | 09:22 |
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| jaykru | Could someone give someone who's been away from the community for quite some time of maemo "state of the union"? | 10:05 |
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| brolin_empey | kerio: hurrian: I used Debian Kit on the Android OS on my Geeksphone Revolution to install Debian GNU/Linux for x86-32 to an ext4 volume in a disk partition on a 32-GB microSDHC card. I can run the same Debian GNU/Linux installation on both my handheld computer and my desktop computer. You cannot do that with a Nokia N900 unless you use an ARM desktop computer. I want x86, not ARM. | 10:24 |
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| brolin_empey | Yes, technically you can emulate an x86 computer on an ARM computer, such as the Nokia N900, but why bother with emulation when you can simply use an x86 mobile computer? | 10:28 |
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| brolin_empey | My user experience with my highly-customised Maemo 5 installation on my Nokia N900 was very poor. | 10:33 |
| brolin_empey | Maemo 5 by default uses BusyBox crap instead of a proper GNU userland. | 10:34 |
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| bencoh | nothing stops you from installing a real bash | 11:24 |
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| kerio | i really don't understand why the architecture's an issue | 11:30 |
| sixwheeledbeast | :nod: I was about to say the same kerio | 11:31 |
| kerio | the n900 has many problems, but the instruction set isn't one of them | 11:31 |
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| hurrian | I don't get what's there to brag about running x86 on a phone unless you're running desktop Windows on it | 11:43 |
| hurrian | in this case, you're running Debian, which runs exactly* the same on about every architecture known to man | 11:43 |
| hurrian | [*] PowerPC Big-endian weirdness aside | 11:44 |
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| brolin_empey | bencoh: I was replying to kerio’s reply of “no real linux”. | 11:51 |
| bencoh | there's quite a difference between a crappy busybox default and an android pile of crap | 11:55 |
| bencoh | and there "multios technology" is probably not better than jolla (if as good at all) | 11:56 |
| bencoh | (I guess you're tied to android/RIL stuff) | 11:57 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: “phone” (sic) is a gross misnomer. | 11:57 |
| brolin_empey | I need an x86 desktop computer because of some of the software I need to use. If my desktop computer uses x86, then I want my embedded and mobile computers to use x86 too because I do not want to spend time on the cross-compilation chore when I can simply use the same architecture on both my host/development computer and my target computer. | 11:57 |
| brolin_empey | No, I do not want an ARM desktop computer. | 11:59 |
| hurrian | there's not much point in cross compiling when you use a binary distribution. | 11:59 |
| hurrian | other than that, I'm starting to resent the x86 monoculture, and would really like it if we had different chips adapted to their application, a side effect of which would promote and ensure interoperability. | 12:02 |
| bencoh | actually I wonder whether there thing is intimately tied to android or if one could have a "free" telephony stack (at least host-cpu-wise) | 12:02 |
| bencoh | hurrian: I too, but it feels like a dream | 12:02 |
| hurrian | bencoh: if you're using a Samsung device and run Cyanogenmod 10.1 and above on it, you're probably using a Free, Libre reverse-engineered Radio Interface Layer | 12:03 |
| bencoh | we had wintel, now we have androarm | 12:03 |
| hurrian | so yeah, host CPU wise, it's free. baseband could still be evil though. | 12:03 |
| bencoh | hurrian: hmm they still copy blobs afaik | 12:03 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: I sometimes build software, including my own software, from source by myself. | 12:03 |
| bencoh | not sure about replicant though | 12:03 |
| hurrian | nah, building CM for my i9100 the only blobs needed now are camera, WiFi/BT (broadcom :/) and audio (super sekrit wolfson sauce) | 12:04 |
| bencoh | neat | 12:05 |
| bencoh | well, apart from the cpu/modem dma | 12:05 |
| bencoh | hmm | 12:06 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: assuming you've got a similar phone that also dual-boots to Debian, but has an ARM core, there's nothing that stops you from running gcc natively on the phone | 12:06 |
| bencoh | hurrian: Modem XMM 6260 Linux kernel Secret protocol: Samsung-IPC, implemented in libsamsung-ipc and samsung-ril | 12:06 |
| bencoh | oh right, they got half of it reverse engineered | 12:07 |
| hurrian | they finished the reverse-engineering, and it works for most devices | 12:07 |
| hurrian | the ones where it's so far unstable are built with the proprietary RIL with a shim on top, but they're working on porting them all. | 12:08 |
| jaykru | where's all of this going on? | 12:09 |
| bencoh | all of what ? maemo ? | 12:10 |
| jaykru | bencoh: i9100 reverse engineering. sorry, should've made that clear. | 12:10 |
| bencoh | :) | 12:10 |
| hurrian | jaykru: check the replicant project and cyanogenmod gerrits. | 12:11 |
| jaykru | hurrian: ah, thanks! I don't own an i9100 but this sounds like a very exciting development :D | 12:12 |
| hurrian | a lot of the work done for samsung devices is portable to newer ones, don't just go rushing out and buy a i9100 :P | 12:12 |
| hurrian | it's getting really long in the tooth. | 12:12 |
| jaykru | lol I'd assume so at this point | 12:13 |
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| bencoh | hurrian: hmm, wifi/bt are only missing firmwares | 12:14 |
| bencoh | seems quite nice | 12:14 |
| bencoh | pretty amazing actually | 12:14 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: That may be true but my point was that I want x86, not ARM. | 12:15 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: if that's what you need, then suit yourself, but I'll stick with ARM's high end for mobile devices. | 12:17 |
| kerio | "multiOS technology" | 12:17 |
| kerio | aka a bootloader | 12:17 |
| jaykru | Enjoy your SafariCom Yolo, brolin_empey | 12:17 |
| kerio | did they really call it yolo | 12:17 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: The Intel Atom x86 SoC is already adapted to the mobile application. | 12:17 |
| jaykru | yep... | 12:18 |
| jaykru | they did kerio -_- | 12:18 |
| kerio | "introducing the yolo phone by intel" | 12:18 |
| kerio | ROFL | 12:18 |
| jaykru | kerio: although I'm assuming it has more to do with an African word (it's from Kenya) than the acronym. | 12:18 |
| kerio | still | 12:19 |
| hurrian | Z2560, TDP 3W | 12:19 |
| hurrian | that's a Tegra-sized TDP, and competes with the Snapdragon 600. | 12:20 |
| jaykru | brolin_empey: if you have any way to import from China, apparently Lenovo has a decent x86 android offering | 12:20 |
| hurrian | not exactly mobile-optimized, BUT, as we all know, Intel has fab technology about two nodes ahead of everyone. | 12:21 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: If you want x86, a non-x86 SoC does not compete with an x86 SoC. | 12:22 |
| jaykru | well that just goes without saying | 12:22 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: we were talking about mobile, unless you suddenly felt the need to strap a Core i7 Mobile in your phone... | 12:22 |
| jaykru | hurrian: how else will I use sony vegas on my phone? | 12:23 |
| hurrian | (interesting thought, it's definitely possible to supply the ~10-15W TDP a Core i7 mobile, low-voltage chip needs in a phone nowadays!) | 12:23 |
| hurrian | I think if Intel really wanted to make a play at phones, that's where they should focus. | 12:25 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: I thought you were saying that an Intel Atom x86 SoC (“Z2560”) competes with an ARM SoC (“Snapdragon 600”). | 12:25 |
| hurrian | what did I say that contradicted that? | 12:26 |
| hurrian | I was just saying that if Intel wanted to turn heads in mobile, they should try and release a 10W Core i5/7 part. | 12:26 |
| hurrian | and get one of their ODMs to build a device based around that. | 12:27 |
| hurrian | maybe a tablet at first, because of the obvious power requirements. | 12:27 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: “<hurrian> brolin_empey: we were talking about mobile, unless you suddenly felt the need to strap a Core i7 Mobile in your phone...” | 12:28 |
| brolin_empey | I know we were talking about mobile technology. Why did you think I was not talking about mobile technology? | 12:28 |
| jaykru | At the moment x86 can't feasibly regarded as mobile. | 12:29 |
| hurrian | because you said that hey, we were talking about x86 right? seeing as there are no other x86 competitors for mobile (unless you count in VIA, and I'm pretty sure their x86 license expired), there was really nothing to compare it to | 12:29 |
| brolin_empey | jaykru: Based on my Real-World experience with the Geeksphone Revolution, your claim is false. | 12:31 |
| jaykru | I'll concede that, brolin_empey | 12:32 |
| jaykru | Still, I see little initiative on Intel's part to enter the mobile market on a large scale. | 12:32 |
| brolin_empey | jaykru: I see little reason to use (the) ARM when I can use an x86 SoC. | 12:34 |
| jaykru | To each their own. I probably wouldn't mind using x86 over ARM on mobile if there were a range of devices to choose from that offer it. | 12:39 |
| brolin_empey | Intel seems to usually make the documentation for their hardware publicly available. I do not know about Qualcomm but nVidia seems to expect an owner of their hardware to enter a non-disclosure agreement before providing documentation for their hardware. | 12:40 |
| jaykru | That is true...I don't believe Qualcomm has a very good track record in being open either, to tell you the truth given issues we've had with video binary blobs on Android in recent years. | 12:41 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: you've got that switched around - it's Qualcomm who's anal about NDAs, Nvidia cleaned up their act after Tegra 2 thoroughly bombed and Torvalds gave them a good scolding over having over 9000 patches to the kernel. | 12:41 |
| hurrian | we've actually got Qualcomm to blame for not being able to download flashable images for Jolla, and the delayed source releases for Nexus 4 and 5 | 12:41 |
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| hurrian | TI was the best with open source, even if they couldn't open the ImgTec SGX drivers (if freaking Intel couldn't with GMA 950, no one can) | 12:43 |
| jaykru | I miss TI :'( | 12:44 |
| hurrian | we all do, nobody else ever had something as magical as OMAPPedia :( | 12:44 |
| brolin_empey | An Intel Atom x86 SoC uses the PCI or PCI Express bus; AFAIK, an ARM SoC usually does not use (the) PCI. | 12:45 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: all the ARM chips have PCIe buses, but MIPI is more commonly used for peripherals instead | 12:46 |
| hurrian | I'm unsure if I /want/ PCIe on my phone, porting stuff over from x86pc like that leads to Windows RT tablets | 12:47 |
| hurrian | (hint: they straight up ported the PC architecture, complete with quirks, to ARM. Thanks, Microsoft.) | 12:47 |
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| jaykru | I'm pretty sure Windows RT was the worst thing I've ever experienced | 12:49 |
| hurrian | allowing non-Store applications would've saved it. | 12:50 |
| jaykru | It's everything that sucks about PCs, without decades of x86 compatibility | 12:50 |
| jaykru | No, they were allowed. | 12:50 |
| jaykru | You could install PuTTY | 12:50 |
| jaykru | If it was compiled for ARM it worked. | 12:50 |
| hurrian | no, you had to install a hack to enable unsigned applications. | 12:50 |
| hurrian | plus, M$ crippled visual studio so you couldn't easily change architectures and target ARM. | 12:51 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: If you dislike monocultures, then you should dislike Apple because Apple maximises the monoculture by having a software monoculture on a hardware monoculture. | 12:51 |
| jaykru | Huh. Maybe PuTTY had a signature. | 12:51 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: pretty sure they didn't use x86 on the iPad | 12:53 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: They did not. I did not say that they did. | 12:53 |
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| hurrian | brolin_empey: their software stack is built in a way that avoids /having/ to become a monoculture. | 12:55 |
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| hurrian | if Apple were to release an ARM Mac tomorrow, this would theoretically be possible: | 12:57 |
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| hurrian | http://goput.it/vaev.png | 12:57 |
| jaykru | > 4chan | 12:58 |
| jaykru | > probably /g/ | 12:59 |
| jaykru | http://www.quickmeme.com/img/34/343de795dddb951ab89d8e9849457e6b0fa990b932c164f64dd4cec827d87f34.jpg | 12:59 |
| hurrian | uh oh, I revealed that I didn't use Our Lord and Savior's Truly Free OS :P | 13:00 |
| hurrian | don't worry, I've got a VM on my second monitor. | 13:00 |
| jaykru | Oh NOES | 13:01 |
| hurrian | b-but my thinkpad runs coreboot and gahnoo! | 13:01 |
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| jaykru | I'm pretty sure we share the exact same computing setup | 13:01 |
| jaykru | ThinkPad running my gan00 loonix | 13:02 |
| jaykru | MacBook Air running hellfire spawn fischer-price OS | 13:02 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: That screenshot contains oversimplification. x86-64 is not the 64-bit Intel architecture. x86-64 was created by AMD, not Intel. IA-64 AKA Itanium is the 64-bit Intel Architecture. | 13:02 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey, that was a screenshot off Xcode, where I added "armv7s", SDK OSX 10.8 as a build target. | 13:03 |
| hurrian | assuming that you're not running a hackintosh, 64-bit Intel means x86-64 plus extensions supported on Intel processors. | 13:04 |
| hurrian | to date, there have been no AMD Macs, but if Apple were to release a Macbook Air Light that ran on AMD APUs and was $10 cheaper, you bet they'd drop "Intel" from that asap. | 13:05 |
| hurrian | jaykru: close enough - liberated thinkpad and a hackintosh (mouse button 4/5 to trigger Mission Control is boss) | 13:07 |
| kerio | is coreboot really that useful? | 13:07 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: Intel has multiple 64-bit architectures: at least EM64T/Intel 64, which is the Intel version of x86-64, and IA-64/Itanium. | 13:07 |
| hurrian | kerio: OEM BIOS is awful, takes 5 seconds to POST. Coreboot gets me to /desktop/ in 5 seconds. | 13:08 |
| kerio | i see | 13:08 |
| kerio | i should time my boot | 13:08 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: that's stepping into pedant territory, i386 and x86_64 are clearly marked to the right of the build configuration. | 13:09 |
| jaykru | also it's super liberated | 13:09 |
| hurrian | jaykru: I assume you've switched to Atheros wifi? | 13:09 |
| kerio | nobody fucking uses itanium | 13:09 |
| bencoh | :] | 13:09 |
| jaykru | hurrian: Intel 6300 in my X220 at the moment | 13:10 |
| hurrian | kerio: sssh, you'll wake the HP-UX folks! | 13:10 |
| bencoh | haha | 13:10 |
| jaykru | It supports packet injection and promiscuous mode which is basically enough for me. | 13:10 |
| kerio | hrmpf, 11 seconds to desktop :c | 13:12 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: Let us step further into pedant territory: i686 != i386. | 13:12 |
| brolin_empey | s/further/farther/ ? | 13:13 |
| hurrian | ah. i'm pondering buying an ath9k card off eBay for maximum freedom, or waiting for the b43 team to reverse engineer the firmware for those sweet new 802.11ac cards. | 13:13 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: unless you're using an Intel Galileo, you wouldn't target i386 anyway | 13:14 |
| hurrian | IIRC even the Linux kernel doesn't support the 386 anymore | 13:14 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: AFAIK, the Linux kernel still does. FreeBSD dropped support for 80386 years ago, though. | 13:15 |
| bencoh | brolin_empey: linus said byebye to 386 as well | 13:16 |
| brolin_empey | Meaning that FreeBSD requires at least 80486. | 13:16 |
| hurrian | It's on Phoronix: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI0OTg | 13:16 |
| bencoh | not that it really matters though | 13:16 |
| kerio | hurrian: how do i make os x boot faster | 13:20 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: I use GNU/Windows NT for x86-32 on my desktop client computers. | 13:21 |
| hurrian | kerio: SSD, enabling kernelcache (assuming it's a hackintosh) | 13:22 |
| kerio | no, no | 13:22 |
| brolin_empey | kerio: Boot Mac OS X from an SSD instead of an HDD? | 13:22 |
| kerio | it's already a ssd | 13:22 |
| hurrian | brolin_empey: unless you're using GNU libc as the C runtime, cygwin doesn't count :P | 13:23 |
| hurrian | kerio: check LaunchDaemons and StartupItems, if those are clean there's nothing much you could do. | 13:24 |
| hurrian | my hackintosh boots off a Fusion Drive, and gets to the desktop in 7 spins. | 13:24 |
| kerio | how much is a spin | 13:24 |
| hurrian | the spinner under the apple boot logo, that is | 13:24 |
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| kerio | powerbutton-to-desktop, my laptop takes 11 seconds | 13:25 |
| kerio | :3 | 13:25 |
| brolin_empey | kerio: The amount of spin depends on the strength of the Reality Distortion Field affecting the Marketing department at the time. :-P | 13:26 |
| bencoh | haha | 13:31 |
| bencoh | well 11s isnt that much anyawy | 13:31 |
| bencoh | beware, that kind of talk leads to systemd :> | 13:32 |
| hurrian | bencoh: in the ultimate sick irony, systemd is actually modeled after OS X's launchd :3 | 13:32 |
| bencoh | meh :) | 13:33 |
| bencoh | at least launchd doesnt force anything on you ... and isnt dep-bloated | 13:33 |
| hurrian | brb, taking an hour off for my nightly walk. | 13:38 |
| brolin_empey | Does someone want to “buy” (= license) Kermit 95 for me? | 13:39 |
| brolin_empey | I was reading [1] before I got pulled (back) into the IRC. | 13:43 |
| brolin_empey | [1] http://simpleconstraints.blogspot.ca/2009/04/what-is-strategy.html | 13:43 |
| brolin_empey | hurrian: So 2012 was apocalyptic for the Linux kernel on the 80386? :-D | 13:57 |
| kerio | yeah, i actually quite like launchd | 13:57 |
| * brolin_empey is only approximately 1.5 years late to learn that support for the 80386 has been dropped from the Linux kernel. | 13:59 | |
| brolin_empey | kerio: Did you mean that using Itanium requires celibacy? | 14:02 |
| brolin_empey | “<kerio> nobody fucking uses itanium” | 14:03 |
| bencoh | :D | 14:03 |
| brolin_empey | My (interpersonal) sex life is not (literally) equal to zero: it is only asymptotically equal to zero. | 14:06 |
| brolin_empey | I actually printed to paper instead of only printing to (a) file at ${HOME} earlier this week but I never used the paper I printed because it is a ticket for an event I missed due to a literal road block. | 14:11 |
| brolin_empey | s/file/computer file/ | 14:12 |
| infobot | brolin_empey meant: I actually printed to paper instead of only printing to (a) computer file at ${HOME} earlier this week but I never used the paper I printed because it is a ticket for an event I missed due to a literal road block. | 14:12 |
| brolin_empey | Both a literal and physical road block. | 14:13 |
| brolin_empey | infobot: seen infobot | 14:14 |
| infobot | infobot is currently on #asterisk-dev (14h 2m) #harmattan (14h 2m) #utah (14h 2m) #magnia (14h 2m) #openwest (14h 2m) #pillbox (14h 2m) #opensuse-us-ut (14h 2m) #catroid (14h 2m) #wowprogramming (14h 2m) #va (14h 2m) #opie (14h 2m) #openzaurus (14h 2m) #mseide (14h 2m) #arm-netbook (14h 2m) #enlightenutah (14h 2m) #botpark (14h 2m) #orkut (14h 2m) #ldstech (14h 2m) #buglabs (14h ... | 14:14 |
| brolin_empey | infobot: seen root | 14:15 |
| infobot | root <~root@83.149.46.153> was last seen on IRC in channel #kde, 144d 1h 29m 23s ago, saying: 'go to the scotland'. | 14:15 |
| brolin_empey | infobot: seen god | 14:15 |
| infobot | god <~pawky@193.15.242.97> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 738d 7m 47s ago, saying: 'Am I still the only one who has noticed the Wifi HotSpot softy doesn't actually seem to use the encryption you set it to use?'. | 14:15 |
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| brolin_empey | god uses Harmattan? | 14:16 |
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| bencoh | infobot: little spy :] | 14:48 |
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| hurrian | Good fucking job, Qualcomm http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/07/05/qualcomm-backtracks-after-issuing-dmca-takedown-notices-for-116-github-repos-including-some-belonging-to-cyanogen-sony-and-qualcomm/ | 14:57 |
| jaykru | I hate the DMCA | 15:14 |
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| jaykru | Ever so much | 15:14 |
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| rhn | hi! I have observed a very strange thing when tethering my n900 | 15:29 |
| rhn | when I connect to gprs, I can't ping n900 over usb | 15:30 |
| rhn | I can still ssh, I can ping the computer from phone, but pings and DNS requests don't go through | 15:31 |
| rhn | I would be glad if someone else had that happen | 15:32 |
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| M4rtinK | hurrian: good way to "improve" your brand image in the technical community :) | 15:37 |
| hurrian | M4rtinK: while I'm glad that they retracted the DMCA, they should've kicked that firm to the curb for doing that. | 15:37 |
| M4rtinK | well it was not directly Qualcom but some rather trigger happy loosers they hired | 15:38 |
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| M4rtinK | but yeah, it is their fault for paying them | 15:38 |
| M4rtinK | and not checking what those fools are actually doing | 15:38 |
| hurrian | (also, Jolla system images can't be redistributed because of QCOM binaries. jeebus christ, CAF source is available EVERYWHERE) | 15:39 |
| M4rtinK | CAF ? | 15:39 |
| hurrian | Code Aurora Forum, their version of OMAPPedia | 15:39 |
| M4rtinK | I have heard about it - what is it actually ? | 15:40 |
| M4rtinK | looks like a semi legal binary blob dumping ground from a quick look | 15:41 |
| hurrian | well, it's technically Qualcomm's blob dumping ground, for both the Linux kernel and Android | 15:41 |
| honestly | rhn: that is a route issue | 15:41 |
| honestly | rhn: make sure you have a route for the subnet you use for the IPs on the usb connection | 15:42 |
| hurrian | they do send out patches that legitimately improve Linux performance on ARM, so it's not all bad | 15:42 |
| hurrian | although, it boggles the mind why QCOM hasn't resolved glaring issues with their legal department yet - JBQ quit AOSP because they weren't able to clear something as simple as posting rootfs ZIPs for the Nexus 4 and 5 | 15:43 |
| M4rtinK | I really wonder what are they trying to achieve with non-redistributable binaries | 15:43 |
| hurrian | the above is the exact same reason everybody with a Jolla is deathly scared to soft-brick them. | 15:44 |
| M4rtinK | anyone who wants to reverse engineer them (or find if they are infringing on GPL or something similar) | 15:44 |
| M4rtinK | _will_ get them | 15:44 |
| M4rtinK | yeah, I know the no-image story | 15:44 |
| M4rtinK | it is a big shame - considering all the awesome low level development than happened on the N900 | 15:45 |
| M4rtinK | and N9 | 15:45 |
| hurrian | I'm already missing TI :( | 15:45 |
| honestly | there aren't working firmware blobs for whatever chip is in jolla phones somewhere in the linux kernel tree? | 15:46 |
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| hurrian | honestly: while ath9k is incredibly open for a WiFi chipset, Qualcomm Prima stuff is top sekrit, apparently. | 15:47 |
| honestly | ah. | 15:47 |
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| honestly | I'm following ath10k development, watching from the distance, and it's really weird. | 15:48 |
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| hurrian | ath10k needs proprietary FW blobs, which is why I'm not buying them until an open FW is released. | 15:49 |
| honestly | yeah. | 15:49 |
| rhn_mk1 | honestly: I think the route is ok - I have the usb entry. New observation: I can't ping localhost... | 15:49 |
| honestly | what do you mean by "open firmware"? | 15:49 |
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| hurrian | the b43 team seems a little further along porting the open firmware for 802.11ac cards, luckily | 15:50 |
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| * dos1 wonders what's so different about closed wifi firmware and closed HDD firmware | 15:51 | |
| honestly | HDD firmware implements a standardised API | 15:51 |
| honestly | wifi usually... doesn'ty | 15:51 |
| honestly | -y | 15:52 |
| dos1 | but you usually have free driver provided | 15:52 |
| honestly | you have a strange conception of "usually" | 15:52 |
| dos1 | and when you don't, you simply ignore such chipset | 15:52 |
| M4rtinK | dos1: not much difference from the security standpoint :) | 15:53 |
| M4rtinK | http://cyberarms.wordpress.com/2013/08/04/hard-drive-hacking-hardware-backdoor-even-if-drive-wiped/ | 15:53 |
| honestly | a few months ago, I was supposed to do research evaluating the potential of 802.11ac cards for use in a research mesh network implementation | 15:53 |
| M4rtinK | http://hackaday.com/2013/08/12/hacking-transcend-wifi-sd-cards/ | 15:53 |
| dos1 | M4rtinK: yup, that's my point | 15:53 |
| honestly | my advisor saw that there was a driver for ath10k and got a few QCA98whatever cards | 15:54 |
| dos1 | I can't see why one would require WiFi to use "open firmware", and don't require HDDs, SSDs and SD cards to do so as well | 15:54 |
| honestly | but the whole thing was a nonstarter because nothing works properly | 15:54 |
| honestly | especially not the low-level packet injection needed for the project | 15:54 |
| dos1 | maybe except things like implementing missing features and/or bugs by yourself - that might be a valid point | 15:54 |
| honestly | there are no such problems with hard disks | 15:55 |
| dos1 | honestly: but is that firmware or driver issue? | 15:55 |
| honestly | you plug them into the SATA bus and they follow the protocol | 15:55 |
| rhn_mk1 | dos1: I imagine security. devices on PCI usually have much wider access to system memory than USB or others | 15:55 |
| honestly | dos1: have you ever checked how many hard drive drivers there are in the kernel? | 15:56 |
| honestly | and then checked how many wireless drivers are in the kernel? | 15:56 |
| dos1 | honestly: that's not the point | 15:56 |
| hurrian | honestly: I don't remember there being any cards capable of injection yet, though | 15:56 |
| honestly | that is exactly the point | 15:56 |
| dos1 | "open firmware" doesn't change anything in this regard | 15:57 |
| honestly | wireless cards aren't standardised to the point that firmware simply implements a fixed driver interface | 15:57 |
| honestly | hard drives are | 15:57 |
| dos1 | unless you reimplement it all by yourself following some standard you choose | 15:57 |
| dos1 | for each of card you want to use separately | 15:57 |
| dos1 | so, while it's a valid issue, it's unrelated to firmware openness and freedom | 15:58 |
| honestly | I don't know what point you're trying to make anymore | 15:58 |
| dos1 | [14:49] <hurrian> ath10k needs proprietary FW blobs, which is why I'm not buying them until an open FW is released. | 15:58 |
| dos1 | [14:51] * dos1 wonders what's so different about closed wifi firmware and closed HDD firmware | 15:58 |
| rZr | http://feedback.zlauncher.com/knowledgebase/articles/377088-what-sort-of-data-are-you-collecting | 15:58 |
| honestly | but my point is that the lack of open specifications and open firmware for wireless cards is a practical issue | 15:58 |
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| dos1 | why buying HDD, SDD or SD with closed firmware is ok, and buying WiFi with closed firmware is no-go? | 15:59 |
| dos1 | SSD* | 15:59 |
| honestly | I'm not going to say it a third time | 15:59 |
| honestly | you can either choose to read and understand what I'm sayting or not | 15:59 |
| honestly | not my problem | 15:59 |
| dos1 | honestly: I'm *not* refering to *your problem*, I'm refering to *hurrian's one* | 16:00 |
| hurrian | dos1: it is to a point acceptable - sure they could hide evil stuff on reserved areas, but they don't have DMA access to CPU, nor can their firmware be easily updated ;) | 16:01 |
| dos1 | hurrian: a) their firmware can be updated b) you don't have to give WiFi module DMA access to CPU | 16:02 |
| dos1 | so without DMA, it would be all ok? ;) | 16:02 |
| honestly | > you don't have to give WiFi module DMA access to CPU | 16:02 |
| honestly | what | 16:03 |
| honestly | do you know how PCI works? | 16:03 |
| dos1 | why are you insisting on PCI modules? | 16:03 |
| dos1 | in mobile phones there's hardly any PCI | 16:03 |
| dos1 | for instance | 16:03 |
| dos1 | but the same problem with "muh freedoms" applies there as well | 16:03 |
| hurrian | easily updated being the key word here, you'd have to have your box already rooted or physically accessible, plus you'd notice a drive going off to rewrite firmware, needing a reboot ;) | 16:04 |
| dos1 | hurrian: isn't it same with wifi? and how can you be sure that any rogue firmware update requires device to go off? | 16:05 |
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| honestly | wifi has an RF antenna listening to the outside world. | 16:06 |
| dos1 | maybe only some EEPROM is flashed, while old firmware stays 100% in RAM until next reboot? | 16:06 |
| hurrian | as for phones, I think it'd be reasonably sane to assume DMA between host CPU and peripherals is done (.dts trees could be a good hint) | 16:06 |
| hurrian | HDDs use private ATA or SCSI commands to flash, these most certainly require exclusive access to the drive else you end up with a bad flash and a bricked drive | 16:08 |
| dos1 | hurrian: as is between the CPU and modem, but there are projects like Neo900 where proper separation is a key design factor | 16:09 |
| dos1 | yet still people often insist on free wifi firmware, and I don't really understand why | 16:09 |
| hurrian | unfortunately, the Neo900 is the exception rather than the rule - it's just soooooooo much easier for OEMs to poke at random memory regions. | 16:10 |
| hurrian | tl;dr dumb block devices, with no means of communication with the outside world except for SATA/M.2/MMC/etc don't represent a credible threat - with no physical access you'd need to be 0wned, and if you had physical access (evil maid, probably) you'd be 0wned either way | 16:11 |
| dos1 | well, I *can* understand why free firmwares are good in general. Just can't understand why allowing/forbidding to update it changes if people accept it or not | 16:11 |
| dos1 | if it's closed, you most likely already can't trust it | 16:11 |
| honestly | as for free as in freedom, all firmwares should be free of course | 16:12 |
| hurrian | well, it boils down to trust. | 16:12 |
| dos1 | so if manufacturer says "you can't update it", why would you trust him? | 16:12 |
| honestly | and all hardware should be free too | 16:12 |
| hurrian | if you had a ROM that you trust, and could verify, you can use that as the basis to trust software that it executes. | 16:13 |
| dos1 | FSF treats any non-updatable firmware as a "circuit" and is fine with it | 16:13 |
| hurrian | it's a bit ironic how that kind of security model sounds like trusted computing, but if the end-user gets to make that decision, it's alright. | 16:14 |
| dos1 | and I can't see how it's any different from updatable firmware - without trusting the manufacturer, you have no idea if the ROM you verified is really the firmware that gets executed | 16:14 |
| honestly | dos1: the fsf is fine with proprietary circuits? in what context? | 16:15 |
| dos1 | honestly: for instance for Respects Your Freedom certification | 16:15 |
| honestly | right | 16:15 |
| honestly | the fsf is the free *software* foundation | 16:15 |
| honestly | they care about software | 16:15 |
| hurrian | honestly: IIRC Stallman himself said that he doesn't need to know what his microwave runs, as long as there isn't an "update software" button on it. | 16:16 |
| dos1 | yet it's running a certification program for hardware | 16:16 |
| hurrian | for all intents and purposes, it is an appliance or something | 16:16 |
| hurrian | wait, wasn't RYF about "hardware that can run 100% FLOSS on all application processors"? | 16:16 |
| honestly | richard stallman isn't the fsf | 16:17 |
| dos1 | hurrian: yep, but a device with WiFi chipset where firmware needs to be uploaded on each boot counts for them as "application processor" as well | 16:17 |
| dos1 | err, WiFi chipset counts as one | 16:18 |
| hurrian | yep, which is why iirc the WiFi chipset is replaced with an ath9k one | 16:18 |
| hurrian | *on the RYF certified X60 | 16:18 |
| dos1 | and when hardware is sealed inside the chipset, it's all fine | 16:18 |
| dos1 | and in my opinion, it has no implication in my privacy and it's worse for my freedom | 16:19 |
| dos1 | as with such device I can't even RE the firmware and replace it with my open one... | 16:19 |
| dos1 | it's a black box I can't even touch | 16:20 |
| dos1 | closed firmware is a black box as well, but at least I can work on replacement | 16:20 |
| dos1 | for microwave I might be fine with it being a black box appliance | 16:21 |
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| hurrian | that's actually a good point, what if tomorrow broadcom decides to seal the firmware inside the chip, and release a driver that just interfaces with it? | 16:22 |
| dos1 | for WiFi - not really, especially if there are some bugs or missing features, like honestly said before | 16:22 |
| dos1 | hurrian: then FSF would be happy with it, but for me it would be step backwards | 16:23 |
| honestly | hurrian: they won't, because they couldn't come up with a working firmware on the first attempt if they tried >_> | 16:23 |
| hurrian | yeah, that's one workaround that'd get them RYF, and it certainly makes it easier for driver developers, but that'd be a shockingly opaque black box. | 16:24 |
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| M4rtinK | hurrian: doesn't the Raspberry GPU work like this already ? | 16:24 |
| dos1 | and it's funny, cause what I consider a step forward the freedom is at the same time condemned by FSF | 16:25 |
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| hurrian | it does seem that the FSF stopped at software though, as it could be construed that blown PROM fuses could be construed as part of the "hardware", and demanding that all chip makes release VHDL to their cores would be insane. | 16:25 |
| dos1 | they accept either "shockingly opaque black box", or "everything free" | 16:25 |
| honestly | hurrian: I don't think that's insane. | 16:26 |
| dos1 | so some "shockingly opaque" hardware can get certification, while "as free as feasible" devices like Neo900 can't | 16:26 |
| honestly | it's not going to be popular any time soon though. | 16:26 |
| dos1 | which kinda breaks the whole idea about certification for me | 16:26 |
| hurrian | honestly: well, considering you have entire massive companies based upon developing hardware designs (fabless semis), for them that'd be financial suicide. | 16:27 |
| honestly | dos1: so the only reason we've been having this conversation is so you can explain that you don't think the FSF's methodology is entirely self-consistent? | 16:27 |
| hurrian | maybe in a few years, 3D printing would be HP/Canon's domain and the hip new thing would be home photolithography of chips :D | 16:27 |
| jaykru | hurrian I don't think you quite understand. If I may, consider the following: muh freedoms | 16:27 |
| honestly | hurrian: so what? | 16:27 |
| hurrian | jaykru: I'd just like to interject for a moment... yeah, I think it'd be bad for the logs if I pasted it here | 16:28 |
| honestly | hurrian: maybe we have more important things to worry about these days, like that consumer hardware these days has active backdoors in it when it comes out of the fab | 16:28 |
| hurrian | honestly: I think that open hardware could be the next frontier, seeing as open software is already so prolific | 16:29 |
| jaykru | hurrian: higher order kek indeed, old chum. | 16:29 |
| honestly | hurrian: so maybe some business models stop being viable if we try to fix that, well, humanity will survive that | 16:29 |
| honestly | hurrian: I don't think we'll be able to get by in the long run *without* pervasive free hardware | 16:30 |
| dos1 | honestly: nah, I just wanted to see the reasoning behing using lots of devices with closed firmware, but giving wifi special requirements on that | 16:30 |
| hurrian | honestly: I think open hardware will compete with the bigger boys just like OSS competes with proprietary nowadays. | 16:30 |
| dos1 | if someone insists of everything being 100% free hardware, then it's at least consistent :P | 16:30 |
| M4rtinK | just take the currently available RepRaps | 16:31 |
| hurrian | the barrier to entry TODAY is staggeringly high - either you buy a fab, or a FPGA kit, but who knows how it'll pan out in the future? | 16:31 |
| M4rtinK | they are open source all the way to hardware & firmware | 16:31 |
| honestly | hurrian: huh? fpga devkits are cheap | 16:31 |
| M4rtinK | and the rest of the workflow from model creation down is also OSS | 16:31 |
| M4rtinK | so it is certainly doable | 16:31 |
| hurrian | honestly: it's like developing a C project in the open in the early 90s - | 16:32 |
| hurrian | some time ago good compilers weren't easy to come by, nowadays GCC eats everybody's lunch. | 16:32 |
| honestly | and if you have a market that wants what you're developing, they will pay for the absence of economy of scale | 16:32 |
| honestly | maybe they will even be happy they get a free FPGA with whatever appliance they wanted. | 16:33 |
| hurrian | the kids playing with a custom CPU architecture for blinking a LED at impossible fast speeds today might pose a threat to x86-64 tomo... maybe a bit further from that, but you get the point | 16:34 |
| honestly | I know someone who is making specialised hardware for processing / distributing / transmitting RF signals / video streams / stuff like that and it's all fpga-based | 16:35 |
| honestly | of course it's a boutique thing, but it's economically viable and the barrier to entry isn't dramatic | 16:35 |
| honestly | if you can get the whole idea of how HDLs work into your head | 16:36 |
| honestly | which 90% of people exposed to it don't | 16:37 |
| honestly | but that's the same as for software programming (: | 16:37 |
| dos1 | milkymist? | 16:39 |
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| hurrian | anyways, i'm heading off for the night, been nice talking to y'all! | 16:42 |
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| honestly | now my n900 stops charging without me seeing a disconnect or an error in the usb host computer | 19:56 |
| honestly | 's log :/ | 19:56 |
| honestly | sigh. | 19:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ((<hurrian> as for phones, I think it'd be reasonably sane to assume DMA between host CPU and peripherals)) NOPE! not at all | 22:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | (([2014-07-06 Sun 15:26:29] <dos1> which kinda breaks the whole idea about certification for me)) right on, right on! | 22:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ((<honestly> now my n900 stops charging)) a quite fuzzy claim. What exactly is it that "stopped"? The blinking LED, the icon in systray, the 'charging' status of the charger chip, the current flowing into battery cell? | 22:21 |
| honestly | LED and icon | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that doesn't mean anything yet | 22:21 |
| honestly | I can't diagnose anything else | 22:21 |
| honestly | also, the phone isn't warming up | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh? you can't? why? | 22:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~bq27k | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~bq27k-detail | 22:22 |
| infobot | methinks bq27k-detail is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27k-detail2 | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cat /sys/*/*/*/*/*/charger | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cat /sys/*/*/*/*/*/vbus | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/3523611988 | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry for the bogus "Version=0.1" dunno if that's been me (lazy) or by bad example from Nokia. freedesktop org dpecifies this is version of the .desktop syntax and always has to be =1 for now | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | specifies, even | 22:28 |
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| honestly | hmmm. | 22:32 |
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| Apic | *shrug* | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cat `find /sys -iname vbus` | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the 2nd line ('0' or '1' is showing voltage on USB | 22:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the 2nd line ('0' or '1') is showing voltage on USB | 22:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | cat `find /sys -iname charger` | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | detects and prints D+- short status, aka fastcharger signalling | 22:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NB that this *might* break or at least introduce data errors into USB data transfers | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since to detect D+- short the kernel will reconfigure the USB PHY in a way that's not compatible to a established USB connection | 22:37 |
| honestly | err, what | 22:39 |
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| honestly | oh right | 22:39 |
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| honestly | the stuff I ordered from dx.com is not going to arrive | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~charge21 | 22:43 |
| honestly | *sigh* | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~charge21.sh | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkey charge | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys charge | 22:44 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'charge' by key (6): cmd: depth charge (.*?) ;; solar charger ;; voipcharges ;; cmd: depth charge (.?*) #DEL# ;; visor recharge hack ;; guy in charge of the sub. | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang | 22:45 |
| Apic | Phew… | 22:47 |
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| Sicelo | ~speedyham | 23:53 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, speedyham is http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-devel/pool/free/h/hildon-application-manager/hildon-application-manager_2.2.73-2_armel.deb, or in cssu-thumb, or 30 times faster than HAM | 23:53 |
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| Sicelo | if i install speedyham, does it replace stock HAM? i'm on CSSU-T currently | 23:54 |
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| dos1 | Sicelo: "speedyham" is just an informal name given to newer version of HAM | 23:57 |
| dos1 | with fixes that make it "speedy" | 23:57 |
| Sicelo | cool. just wanted to understand. | 23:58 |
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