IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2014-07-06

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DocScrutinizer05FFS!!!! we AGAIN are sending out mails to deleted garage accounts00:34
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DocScrutinizer05some poor fellow receiving a ballot for 3rd time now, for a garage account he deleted years ago00:46
bencohlooks like you cant leave maemo :>00:50
Luke-JrI don't think I got a ballot :o00:54
Luke-Jrotoh, I'd probably have ignored it00:54
sixwheeledbeastyou can't "leave" maemo. It's infra doesn't allow it01:01
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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: don't tell that a lawyer. We are legally obliged to delete all privacy data on request01:06
sixwheeledbeast"on request" that's fine, it just can't be done automagically01:08
sixwheeledbeastso it seems01:08
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DocScrutinizer05that guy requested it 3rd time now01:20
DocScrutinizer05plus what's worse: this incident/problem suggests that our electorate list wasn't updated at all, so we also might not see anybody voting who joined community during last 18 months01:23
DocScrutinizer05I elaborated on this, in #maemo-meeting01:23
DocScrutinizer05and in ##maemo-admin01:23
ShadowJKConsidering that maemo is in a process of constant downsizing, it would probably make sense to change this election thing01:29
ShadowJKLonger terms01:29
ShadowJK.. fewer elects?01:29
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DocScrutinizer05yes, maemo council should actually "reinvent" itself and drive a movement towards a community discussion resulting in new rules and council definition suggested in a referendum01:35
DocScrutinizer05I'm afraid we already missed the point in time where council had enough power, knowledge, experience, and endurance to make that happen01:37
ShadowJKI'm not familiar with rules of anything, but I would've thought they could do that at any time01:37
DocScrutinizer05do what exactly?01:38
ShadowJKRedefine itself01:38
sixwheeledbeastthe knowledge and experience is the key here01:39
DocScrutinizer05fun collateral effect: this would introduce massive problems with HiFo bylaws and probably also that new e.V.01:39
DocScrutinizer05while the council can change own rules via referendum any time (given somebody has the drive to do so), same does probably NOT apply to HiFo bylaws which got a copy of those council rules01:41
DocScrutinizer05and honestly, I outright refuse to even start thinking about that, and what it would ensue01:42
DocScrutinizer05and we don't even have a fully working infra to do a proper referendum, as you can see in above few dozen lines01:44
DocScrutinizer05prolly maemo orga has tripped the point of no return towards a zombie state already01:46
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brolin_empeyMy Nokia N900 has been retired in favour of my Geeksphone Revolution.08:57
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keriono keyboard09:08
keriono real linux09:08
kerioThe Revolution is not only more powerful than most, but also a first-of-its-kind. Geeksphone MultiOS technology allows you to choose your operating system.09:09
keriou wot m809:09
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hurrianbooting another system that runs on top of the Android hardware adaptation doesn't count!09:22
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jaykruCould someone give someone who's been away from the community for quite some time of maemo "state of the union"?10:05
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brolin_empeykerio: hurrian: I used Debian Kit on the Android OS on my Geeksphone Revolution to install Debian GNU/Linux for x86-32 to an ext4 volume in a disk partition on a 32-GB microSDHC card.  I can run the same Debian GNU/Linux installation on both my handheld computer and my desktop computer.  You cannot do that with a Nokia N900 unless you use an ARM desktop computer.  I want x86, not ARM.10:24
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brolin_empeyYes, technically you can emulate an x86 computer on an ARM computer, such as the Nokia N900, but why bother with emulation when you can simply use an x86 mobile computer?10:28
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brolin_empeyMy user experience with my highly-customised Maemo 5 installation on my Nokia N900 was very poor.10:33
brolin_empeyMaemo 5 by default uses BusyBox crap instead of a proper GNU userland.10:34
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bencohnothing stops you from installing a real bash11:24
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kerioi really don't understand why the architecture's an issue11:30
sixwheeledbeast:nod: I was about to say the same kerio11:31
keriothe n900 has many problems, but the instruction set isn't one of them11:31
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hurrianI don't get what's there to brag about running x86 on a phone unless you're running desktop Windows on it11:43
hurrianin this case, you're running Debian, which runs exactly* the same on about every architecture known to man11:43
hurrian[*] PowerPC Big-endian weirdness aside11:44
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brolin_empeybencoh: I was replying to kerio’s reply of “no real linux”.11:51
bencohthere's quite a difference between a crappy busybox default and an android pile of crap11:55
bencohand there "multios technology" is probably not better than jolla (if as good at all)11:56
bencoh(I guess you're tied to android/RIL stuff)11:57
brolin_empeyhurrian: “phone” (sic) is a gross misnomer.11:57
brolin_empeyI need an x86 desktop computer because of some of the software I need to use.  If my desktop computer uses x86, then I want my embedded and mobile computers to use x86 too because I do not want to spend time on the cross-compilation chore when I can simply use the same architecture on both my host/development computer and my target computer.11:57
brolin_empeyNo, I do not want an ARM desktop computer.11:59
hurrianthere's not much point in cross compiling when you use a binary distribution.11:59
hurrianother than that, I'm starting to resent the x86 monoculture, and would really like it if we had different chips adapted to their application, a side effect of which would promote and ensure interoperability.12:02
bencohactually I wonder whether there thing is intimately tied to android or if one could have a "free" telephony stack (at least host-cpu-wise)12:02
bencohhurrian: I too, but it feels like a dream12:02
hurrianbencoh: if you're using a Samsung device and run Cyanogenmod 10.1 and above on it, you're probably using a Free, Libre reverse-engineered Radio Interface Layer12:03
bencohwe had wintel, now we have androarm12:03
hurrianso yeah, host CPU wise, it's free. baseband could still be evil though.12:03
bencohhurrian: hmm they still copy blobs afaik12:03
brolin_empeyhurrian: I sometimes build software, including my own software, from source by myself.12:03
bencohnot sure about replicant though12:03
hurriannah, building CM for my i9100 the only blobs needed now are camera, WiFi/BT (broadcom :/) and audio (super sekrit wolfson sauce)12:04
bencohwell, apart from the cpu/modem dma12:05
hurrianbrolin_empey: assuming you've got a similar phone that also dual-boots to Debian, but has an ARM core, there's nothing that stops you from running gcc natively on the phone12:06
bencohhurrian: Modem XMM 6260 Linux kernel Secret protocol: Samsung-IPC, implemented in libsamsung-ipc and samsung-ril12:06
bencohoh right, they got half of it reverse engineered12:07
hurrianthey finished the reverse-engineering, and it works for most devices12:07
hurrianthe ones where it's so far unstable are built with the proprietary RIL with a shim on top, but they're working on porting them all.12:08
jaykruwhere's all of this going on?12:09
bencohall of what ? maemo ?12:10
jaykrubencoh: i9100 reverse engineering. sorry, should've made that clear.12:10
hurrianjaykru: check the replicant project and cyanogenmod gerrits.12:11
jaykruhurrian: ah, thanks! I don't own an i9100 but this sounds like a very exciting development :D12:12
hurriana lot of the work done for samsung devices is portable to newer ones, don't just go rushing out and buy a i9100 :P12:12
hurrianit's getting really long in the tooth.12:12
jaykrulol I'd assume so at this point12:13
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bencohhurrian: hmm, wifi/bt are only missing firmwares12:14
bencohseems quite nice12:14
bencohpretty amazing actually12:14
brolin_empeyhurrian: That may be true but my point was that I want x86, not ARM.12:15
hurrianbrolin_empey: if that's what you need, then suit yourself, but I'll stick with ARM's high end for mobile devices.12:17
kerio"multiOS technology"12:17
kerioaka a bootloader12:17
jaykruEnjoy your SafariCom Yolo, brolin_empey12:17
keriodid they really call it yolo12:17
brolin_empeyhurrian: The Intel Atom x86 SoC is already adapted to the mobile application.12:17
jaykruthey did kerio -_-12:18
kerio"introducing the yolo phone by intel"12:18
jaykrukerio: although I'm assuming it has more to do with an African word (it's from Kenya) than the acronym.12:18
hurrianZ2560, TDP 3W12:19
hurrianthat's a Tegra-sized TDP, and competes with the Snapdragon 600.12:20
jaykrubrolin_empey: if you have any way to import from China, apparently Lenovo has a decent x86 android offering12:20
hurriannot exactly mobile-optimized, BUT, as we all know, Intel has fab technology about two nodes ahead of everyone.12:21
brolin_empeyhurrian: If you want x86, a non-x86 SoC does not compete with an x86 SoC.12:22
jaykruwell that just goes without saying12:22
hurrianbrolin_empey: we were talking about mobile, unless you suddenly felt the need to strap a Core i7 Mobile in your phone...12:22
jaykruhurrian: how else will I use sony vegas on my phone?12:23
hurrian(interesting thought, it's definitely possible to supply the ~10-15W TDP a Core i7 mobile, low-voltage chip needs in a phone nowadays!)12:23
hurrianI think if Intel really wanted to make a play at phones, that's where they should focus.12:25
brolin_empeyhurrian: I thought you were saying that an Intel Atom x86 SoC (“Z2560”) competes with an ARM SoC (“Snapdragon 600”).12:25
hurrianwhat did I say that contradicted that?12:26
hurrianI was just saying that if Intel wanted to turn heads in mobile, they should try and release a 10W Core i5/7 part.12:26
hurrianand get one of their ODMs to build a device based around that.12:27
hurrianmaybe a tablet at first, because of the obvious power requirements.12:27
brolin_empeyhurrian: “<hurrian> brolin_empey: we were talking about mobile, unless you suddenly felt the need to strap a Core i7 Mobile in your phone...”12:28
brolin_empeyI know we were talking about mobile technology.  Why did you think I was not talking about mobile technology?12:28
jaykruAt the moment x86 can't feasibly regarded as mobile.12:29
hurrianbecause you said that hey, we were talking about x86 right? seeing as there are no other x86 competitors for mobile (unless you count in VIA, and I'm pretty sure their x86 license expired), there was really nothing to compare it to12:29
brolin_empeyjaykru: Based on my Real-World experience with the Geeksphone Revolution, your claim is false.12:31
jaykruI'll concede that, brolin_empey12:32
jaykruStill, I see little initiative on Intel's part to enter the mobile market on a large scale.12:32
brolin_empeyjaykru: I see little reason to use (the) ARM when I can use an x86 SoC.12:34
jaykruTo each their own. I probably wouldn't mind using x86 over ARM on mobile if there were a range of devices to choose from that offer it.12:39
brolin_empeyIntel seems to usually make the documentation for their hardware publicly available.  I do not know about Qualcomm but nVidia seems to expect an owner of their hardware to enter a non-disclosure agreement before providing documentation for their hardware.12:40
jaykruThat is true...I don't believe Qualcomm has a very good track record in being open either, to tell you the truth given issues we've had with video binary blobs on Android in recent years.12:41
hurrianbrolin_empey: you've got that switched around - it's Qualcomm who's anal about NDAs, Nvidia cleaned up their act after Tegra 2 thoroughly bombed and Torvalds gave them a good scolding over having over 9000 patches to the kernel.12:41
hurrianwe've actually got Qualcomm to blame for not being able to download flashable images for Jolla, and the delayed source releases for Nexus 4 and 512:41
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hurrianTI was the best with open source, even if they couldn't open the ImgTec SGX drivers (if freaking Intel couldn't with GMA 950, no one can)12:43
jaykruI miss TI :'(12:44
hurrianwe all do, nobody else ever had something as magical as OMAPPedia :(12:44
brolin_empeyAn Intel Atom x86 SoC uses the PCI or PCI Express bus;  AFAIK, an ARM SoC usually does not use (the) PCI.12:45
hurrianbrolin_empey: all the ARM chips have PCIe buses, but MIPI is more commonly used for peripherals instead12:46
hurrianI'm unsure if I /want/ PCIe on my phone, porting stuff over from x86pc like that leads to Windows RT tablets12:47
hurrian(hint: they straight up ported the PC architecture, complete with quirks, to ARM. Thanks, Microsoft.)12:47
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jaykruI'm pretty sure Windows RT was the worst thing I've ever experienced12:49
hurrianallowing non-Store applications would've saved it.12:50
jaykruIt's everything that sucks about PCs, without decades of x86 compatibility12:50
jaykruNo, they were allowed.12:50
jaykruYou could install PuTTY12:50
jaykruIf it was compiled for ARM it worked.12:50
hurrianno, you had to install a hack to enable unsigned applications.12:50
hurrianplus, M$ crippled visual studio so you couldn't easily change architectures and target ARM.12:51
brolin_empeyhurrian: If you dislike monocultures, then you should dislike Apple because Apple maximises the monoculture by having a software monoculture on a hardware monoculture.12:51
jaykruHuh. Maybe PuTTY had a signature.12:51
hurrianbrolin_empey: pretty sure they didn't use x86 on the iPad12:53
brolin_empeyhurrian: They did not.  I did not say that they did.12:53
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hurrianbrolin_empey: their software stack is built in a way that avoids /having/ to become a monoculture.12:55
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hurrianif Apple were to release an ARM Mac tomorrow, this would theoretically be possible:12:57
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jaykru> 4chan12:58
jaykru> probably /g/12:59
hurrianuh oh, I revealed that I didn't use Our Lord and Savior's Truly Free OS :P13:00
hurriandon't worry, I've got a VM on my second monitor.13:00
jaykruOh NOES13:01
hurrianb-but my thinkpad runs coreboot and gahnoo!13:01
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jaykruI'm pretty sure we share the exact same computing setup13:01
jaykruThinkPad running my gan00 loonix13:02
jaykruMacBook Air running hellfire spawn fischer-price OS13:02
brolin_empeyhurrian: That screenshot contains oversimplification.  x86-64 is not the 64-bit Intel architecture.  x86-64 was created by AMD, not Intel.  IA-64 AKA Itanium is the 64-bit Intel Architecture.13:02
hurrianbrolin_empey, that was a screenshot off Xcode, where I added "armv7s", SDK OSX 10.8 as a build target.13:03
hurrianassuming that you're not running a hackintosh, 64-bit Intel means x86-64 plus extensions supported on Intel processors.13:04
hurrianto date, there have been no AMD Macs, but if Apple were to release a Macbook Air Light that ran on AMD APUs and was $10 cheaper, you bet they'd drop "Intel" from that asap.13:05
hurrianjaykru: close enough - liberated thinkpad and a hackintosh (mouse button 4/5 to trigger Mission Control is boss)13:07
keriois coreboot really that useful?13:07
brolin_empeyhurrian: Intel has multiple 64-bit architectures:  at least EM64T/Intel 64, which is the Intel version of x86-64, and IA-64/Itanium.13:07
hurriankerio: OEM BIOS is awful, takes 5 seconds to POST. Coreboot gets me to /desktop/ in 5 seconds.13:08
kerioi see13:08
kerioi should time my boot13:08
hurrianbrolin_empey: that's stepping into pedant territory, i386 and x86_64 are clearly marked to the right of the build configuration.13:09
jaykrualso it's super liberated13:09
hurrianjaykru: I assume you've switched to Atheros wifi?13:09
kerionobody fucking uses itanium13:09
jaykruhurrian: Intel 6300 in my X220 at the moment13:10
hurriankerio: sssh, you'll wake the HP-UX folks!13:10
jaykruIt supports packet injection and promiscuous mode which is basically enough for me.13:10
keriohrmpf, 11 seconds to desktop :c13:12
brolin_empeyhurrian: Let us step further into pedant territory:  i686 != i386.13:12
brolin_empeys/further/farther/ ?13:13
hurrianah. i'm pondering buying an ath9k card off eBay for maximum freedom, or waiting for the b43 team to reverse engineer the firmware for those sweet new 802.11ac cards.13:13
hurrianbrolin_empey: unless you're using an Intel Galileo, you wouldn't target i386 anyway13:14
hurrianIIRC even the Linux kernel doesn't support the 386 anymore13:14
brolin_empeyhurrian: AFAIK, the Linux kernel still does.  FreeBSD dropped support for 80386 years ago, though.13:15
bencohbrolin_empey: linus said byebye to 386 as well13:16
brolin_empeyMeaning that FreeBSD requires at least 80486.13:16
hurrianIt's on Phoronix:
bencohnot that it really matters though13:16
keriohurrian: how do i make os x boot faster13:20
brolin_empeyhurrian: I use GNU/Windows NT for x86-32 on my desktop client computers.13:21
hurriankerio: SSD, enabling kernelcache (assuming it's a hackintosh)13:22
keriono, no13:22
brolin_empeykerio: Boot Mac OS X from an SSD instead of an HDD?13:22
kerioit's already a ssd13:22
hurrianbrolin_empey: unless you're using GNU libc as the C runtime, cygwin doesn't count :P13:23
hurriankerio: check LaunchDaemons and StartupItems, if those are clean there's nothing much you could do.13:24
hurrianmy hackintosh boots off a Fusion Drive, and gets to the desktop in 7 spins.13:24
keriohow much is a spin13:24
hurrianthe spinner under the apple boot logo, that is13:24
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keriopowerbutton-to-desktop, my laptop takes 11 seconds13:25
brolin_empeykerio: The amount of spin depends on the strength of the Reality Distortion Field affecting the Marketing department at the time. :-P13:26
bencohwell 11s isnt that much anyawy13:31
bencohbeware, that kind of talk leads to systemd :>13:32
hurrianbencoh: in the ultimate sick irony, systemd is actually modeled after OS X's launchd :313:32
bencohmeh :)13:33
bencohat least launchd doesnt force anything on you ... and isnt dep-bloated13:33
hurrianbrb, taking an hour off for my nightly walk.13:38
brolin_empeyDoes someone want to “buy” (= license) Kermit 95 for me?13:39
brolin_empeyI was reading [1] before I got pulled (back) into the IRC.13:43
brolin_empeyhurrian: So 2012 was apocalyptic for the Linux kernel on the 80386? :-D13:57
kerioyeah, i actually quite like launchd13:57
* brolin_empey is only approximately 1.5 years late to learn that support for the 80386 has been dropped from the Linux kernel.13:59
brolin_empeykerio: Did you mean that using Itanium requires celibacy?14:02
brolin_empey“<kerio> nobody fucking uses itanium”14:03
brolin_empeyMy (interpersonal) sex life is not (literally) equal to zero:  it is only asymptotically equal to zero.14:06
brolin_empeyI actually printed to paper instead of only printing to (a) file at ${HOME} earlier this week but I never used the paper I printed because it is a ticket for an event I missed due to a literal road block.14:11
brolin_empeys/file/computer file/14:12
infobotbrolin_empey meant: I actually printed to paper instead of only printing to (a) computer file at ${HOME} earlier this week but I never used the paper I printed because it is a ticket for an event I missed due to a literal road block.14:12
brolin_empeyBoth a literal and physical road block.14:13
brolin_empeyinfobot: seen infobot14:14
infobotinfobot is currently on #asterisk-dev (14h 2m) #harmattan (14h 2m) #utah (14h 2m) #magnia (14h 2m) #openwest (14h 2m) #pillbox (14h 2m) #opensuse-us-ut (14h 2m) #catroid (14h 2m) #wowprogramming (14h 2m) #va (14h 2m) #opie (14h 2m) #openzaurus (14h 2m) #mseide (14h 2m) #arm-netbook (14h 2m) #enlightenutah (14h 2m) #botpark (14h 2m) #orkut (14h 2m) #ldstech (14h 2m) #buglabs (14h ...14:14
brolin_empeyinfobot: seen root14:15
infobotroot <~root@> was last seen on IRC in channel #kde, 144d 1h 29m 23s ago, saying: 'go to the scotland'.14:15
brolin_empeyinfobot: seen god14:15
infobotgod <~pawky@> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 738d 7m 47s ago, saying: 'Am I still the only one who has noticed the Wifi HotSpot softy doesn't actually seem to use the encryption you set it to use?'.14:15
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brolin_empeygod uses Harmattan?14:16
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bencohinfobot: little spy :]14:48
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hurrianGood fucking job, Qualcomm
jaykruI hate the DMCA15:14
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jaykruEver so much15:14
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rhnhi! I have observed a very strange thing when tethering my n90015:29
rhnwhen I connect to gprs, I can't ping n900 over usb15:30
rhnI can still ssh, I can ping the computer from phone, but pings and DNS requests don't go through15:31
rhnI would be glad if someone else had that happen15:32
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M4rtinKhurrian: good way to "improve" your brand image in the technical community :)15:37
hurrianM4rtinK: while I'm glad that they retracted the DMCA, they should've kicked that firm to the curb for doing that.15:37
M4rtinKwell it was not directly Qualcom but some rather trigger happy loosers they hired15:38
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M4rtinKbut yeah, it is their fault for paying them15:38
M4rtinKand not checking what those fools are actually doing15:38
hurrian(also, Jolla system images can't be redistributed because of QCOM binaries. jeebus christ, CAF source is available EVERYWHERE)15:39
M4rtinKCAF ?15:39
hurrianCode Aurora Forum, their version of OMAPPedia15:39
M4rtinKI have heard about it - what is it actually ?15:40
M4rtinKlooks like a semi legal binary blob dumping ground from a quick look15:41
hurrianwell, it's technically Qualcomm's blob dumping ground, for both the Linux kernel and Android15:41
honestlyrhn: that is a route issue15:41
honestlyrhn: make sure you have a route for the subnet you use for the IPs on the usb connection15:42
hurrianthey do send out patches that legitimately improve Linux performance on ARM, so it's not all bad15:42
hurrianalthough, it boggles the mind why QCOM hasn't resolved glaring issues with their legal department yet - JBQ quit AOSP because they weren't able to clear something as simple as posting rootfs ZIPs for the Nexus 4 and 515:43
M4rtinKI really wonder what are they trying to achieve with non-redistributable binaries15:43
hurrianthe above is the exact same reason everybody with a Jolla is deathly scared to soft-brick them.15:44
M4rtinKanyone who wants to reverse engineer them (or find if they are infringing on GPL or something similar)15:44
M4rtinK_will_ get them15:44
M4rtinKyeah, I know the no-image story15:44
M4rtinKit is a big shame - considering all the awesome low level development than happened on the N90015:45
M4rtinKand N915:45
hurrianI'm already missing TI :(15:45
honestlythere aren't working firmware blobs for whatever chip is in jolla phones somewhere in the linux kernel tree?15:46
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hurrianhonestly: while ath9k is incredibly open for a WiFi chipset, Qualcomm Prima stuff is top sekrit, apparently.15:47
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honestlyI'm following ath10k development, watching from the distance, and it's really weird.15:48
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hurrianath10k needs proprietary FW blobs, which is why I'm not buying them until an open FW is released.15:49
rhn_mk1honestly: I think the route is ok - I have the usb entry. New observation: I can't ping localhost...15:49
honestlywhat do you mean by "open firmware"?15:49
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hurrianthe b43 team seems a little further along porting the open firmware for 802.11ac cards, luckily15:50
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* dos1 wonders what's so different about closed wifi firmware and closed HDD firmware15:51
honestlyHDD firmware implements a standardised API15:51
honestlywifi usually... doesn'ty15:51
dos1but you usually have free driver provided15:52
honestlyyou have a strange conception of "usually"15:52
dos1and when you don't, you simply ignore such chipset15:52
M4rtinKdos1: not much difference from the security standpoint :)15:53
honestlya few months ago, I was supposed to do research evaluating the potential of 802.11ac cards for use in a research mesh network implementation15:53
dos1M4rtinK: yup, that's my point15:53
honestlymy advisor saw that there was a driver for ath10k and got a few QCA98whatever cards15:54
dos1I can't see why one would require WiFi to use "open firmware", and don't require HDDs, SSDs and SD cards to do so as well15:54
honestlybut the whole thing was a nonstarter because nothing works properly15:54
honestlyespecially not the low-level packet injection needed for the project15:54
dos1maybe except things like implementing missing features and/or bugs by yourself - that might be a valid point15:54
honestlythere are no such problems with hard disks15:55
dos1honestly: but is that firmware or driver issue?15:55
honestlyyou plug them into the SATA bus and they follow the protocol15:55
rhn_mk1dos1: I imagine security. devices on PCI usually have much wider access to system memory than USB or others15:55
honestlydos1: have you ever checked how many hard drive drivers there are in the kernel?15:56
honestlyand then checked how many wireless drivers are in the kernel?15:56
dos1honestly: that's not the point15:56
hurrianhonestly: I don't remember there being any cards capable of injection yet, though15:56
honestlythat is exactly the point15:56
dos1"open firmware" doesn't change anything in this regard15:57
honestlywireless cards aren't standardised to the point that firmware simply implements a fixed driver interface15:57
honestlyhard drives are15:57
dos1unless you reimplement it all by yourself following some standard you choose15:57
dos1for each of card you want to use separately15:57
dos1so, while it's a valid issue, it's unrelated to firmware openness and freedom15:58
honestlyI don't know what point you're trying to make anymore15:58
dos1[14:49] <hurrian> ath10k needs proprietary FW blobs, which is why I'm not buying them until an open FW is released.15:58
dos1[14:51] * dos1 wonders what's so different about closed wifi firmware and closed HDD firmware15:58
honestlybut my point is that the lack of open specifications and open firmware for wireless cards is a practical issue15:58
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dos1why buying HDD, SDD or SD with closed firmware is ok, and buying WiFi with closed firmware is no-go?15:59
honestlyI'm not going to say it a third time15:59
honestlyyou can either choose to read and understand what I'm sayting or not15:59
honestlynot my problem15:59
dos1honestly: I'm *not* refering to *your problem*, I'm refering to *hurrian's one*16:00
hurriandos1: it is to a point acceptable - sure they could hide evil stuff on reserved areas, but they don't have DMA access to CPU, nor can their firmware be easily updated ;)16:01
dos1hurrian: a) their firmware can be updated b) you don't have to give WiFi module DMA access to CPU16:02
dos1so without DMA, it would be all ok? ;)16:02
honestly> you don't have to give WiFi module DMA access to CPU16:02
honestlydo you know how PCI works?16:03
dos1why are you insisting on PCI modules?16:03
dos1in mobile phones there's hardly any PCI16:03
dos1for instance16:03
dos1but the same problem with "muh freedoms" applies there as well16:03
hurrianeasily updated being the key word here, you'd have to have your box already rooted or physically accessible, plus you'd notice a drive going off to rewrite firmware, needing a reboot ;)16:04
dos1hurrian: isn't it same with wifi? and how can you be sure that any rogue firmware update requires device to go off?16:05
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honestlywifi has an RF antenna listening to the outside world.16:06
dos1maybe only some EEPROM is flashed, while old firmware stays 100% in RAM until next reboot?16:06
hurrianas for phones, I think it'd be reasonably sane to assume DMA between host CPU and peripherals is done (.dts trees could be a good hint)16:06
hurrianHDDs use private ATA or SCSI commands to flash, these most certainly require exclusive access to the drive else you end up with a bad flash and a bricked drive16:08
dos1hurrian: as is between the CPU and modem, but there are projects like Neo900 where proper separation is a key design factor16:09
dos1yet still people often insist on free wifi firmware, and I don't really understand why16:09
hurrianunfortunately, the Neo900 is the exception rather than the rule - it's just soooooooo much easier for OEMs to poke at random memory regions.16:10
hurriantl;dr dumb block devices, with no means of communication with the outside world except for SATA/M.2/MMC/etc don't represent a credible threat - with no physical access you'd need to be 0wned, and if you had physical access (evil maid, probably) you'd be 0wned either way16:11
dos1well, I *can* understand why free firmwares are good in general. Just can't understand why allowing/forbidding to update it changes if people accept it or not16:11
dos1if it's closed, you most likely already can't trust it16:11
honestlyas for free as in freedom, all firmwares should be free of course16:12
hurrianwell, it boils down to trust.16:12
dos1so if manufacturer says "you can't update it", why would you trust him?16:12
honestlyand all hardware should be free too16:12
hurrianif you had a ROM that you trust, and could verify, you can use that as the basis to trust software that it executes.16:13
dos1FSF treats any non-updatable firmware as a "circuit" and is fine with it16:13
hurrianit's a bit ironic how that kind of security model sounds like trusted computing, but if the end-user gets to make that decision, it's alright.16:14
dos1and I can't see how it's any different from updatable firmware - without trusting the manufacturer, you have no idea if the ROM you verified is really the firmware that gets executed16:14
honestlydos1: the fsf is fine with proprietary circuits? in what context?16:15
dos1honestly: for instance for Respects Your Freedom certification16:15
honestlythe fsf is the free *software* foundation16:15
honestlythey care about software16:15
hurrianhonestly: IIRC Stallman himself said that he doesn't need to know what his microwave runs, as long as there isn't an "update software" button on it.16:16
dos1yet it's running a certification program for hardware16:16
hurrianfor all intents and purposes, it is an appliance or something16:16
hurrianwait, wasn't RYF about "hardware that can run 100% FLOSS on all application processors"?16:16
honestlyrichard stallman isn't the fsf16:17
dos1hurrian: yep, but a device with WiFi chipset where firmware needs to be uploaded on each boot counts for them as "application processor" as well16:17
dos1err, WiFi chipset counts as one16:18
hurrianyep, which is why iirc the WiFi chipset is replaced with an ath9k one16:18
hurrian*on the RYF certified X6016:18
dos1and when hardware is sealed inside the chipset, it's all fine16:18
dos1and in my opinion, it has no implication in my privacy and it's worse for my freedom16:19
dos1as with such device I can't even RE the firmware and replace it with my open one...16:19
dos1it's a black box I can't even touch16:20
dos1closed firmware is a black box as well, but at least I can work on replacement16:20
dos1for microwave I might be fine with it being a black box appliance16:21
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hurrianthat's actually a good point, what if tomorrow broadcom decides to seal the firmware inside the chip, and release a driver that just interfaces with it?16:22
dos1for WiFi - not really, especially if there are some bugs or missing features, like honestly said before16:22
dos1hurrian: then FSF would be happy with it, but for me it would be step backwards16:23
honestlyhurrian: they won't, because they couldn't come up with a working firmware on the first attempt if they tried >_>16:23
hurrianyeah, that's one workaround that'd get them RYF, and it certainly makes it easier for driver developers, but that'd be a shockingly opaque black box.16:24
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M4rtinKhurrian: doesn't the Raspberry GPU work like this already ?16:24
dos1and it's funny, cause what I consider a step forward the freedom is at the same time condemned by FSF16:25
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hurrianit does seem that the FSF stopped at software though, as it could be construed that blown PROM fuses could be construed as part of the "hardware", and demanding that all chip makes release VHDL to their cores would be insane.16:25
dos1they accept either "shockingly opaque black box", or "everything free"16:25
honestlyhurrian: I don't think that's insane.16:26
dos1so some "shockingly opaque" hardware can get certification, while "as free as feasible" devices like Neo900 can't16:26
honestlyit's not going to be popular any time soon though.16:26
dos1which kinda breaks the whole idea about certification for me16:26
hurrianhonestly: well, considering you have entire massive companies based upon developing hardware designs (fabless semis), for them that'd be financial suicide.16:27
honestlydos1: so the only reason we've been having this conversation is so you can explain that you don't think the FSF's methodology is entirely self-consistent?16:27
hurrianmaybe in a few years, 3D printing would be HP/Canon's domain and the hip new thing would be home photolithography of chips :D16:27
jaykruhurrian I don't think you quite understand. If I may, consider the following: muh freedoms16:27
honestlyhurrian: so what?16:27
hurrianjaykru: I'd just like to interject for a moment... yeah, I think it'd be bad for the logs if I pasted it here16:28
honestlyhurrian: maybe we have more important things to worry about these days, like that consumer hardware these days has active backdoors in it when it comes out of the fab16:28
hurrianhonestly: I think that open hardware could be the next frontier, seeing as open software is already so prolific16:29
jaykruhurrian: higher order kek indeed, old chum.16:29
honestlyhurrian: so maybe some business models stop being viable if we try to fix that, well, humanity will survive that16:29
honestlyhurrian: I don't think we'll be able to get by in the long run *without* pervasive free hardware16:30
dos1honestly: nah, I just wanted to see the reasoning behing using lots of devices with closed firmware, but giving wifi special requirements on that16:30
hurrianhonestly: I think open hardware will compete with the bigger boys just like OSS competes with proprietary nowadays.16:30
dos1if someone insists of everything being 100% free hardware, then it's at least consistent :P16:30
M4rtinKjust take the currently available RepRaps16:31
hurrianthe barrier to entry TODAY is staggeringly high - either you buy a fab, or a FPGA kit, but who knows how it'll pan out in the future?16:31
M4rtinKthey are open source all the way to hardware & firmware16:31
honestlyhurrian: huh? fpga devkits are cheap16:31
M4rtinKand the rest of the workflow from model creation down is also OSS16:31
M4rtinKso it is certainly doable16:31
hurrianhonestly: it's like developing a C project in the open in the early 90s -16:32
hurriansome time ago good compilers weren't easy to come by, nowadays GCC eats everybody's lunch.16:32
honestlyand if you have a market that wants what you're developing, they will pay for the absence of economy of scale16:32
honestlymaybe they will even be happy they get a free FPGA with whatever appliance they wanted.16:33
hurrianthe kids playing with a custom CPU architecture for blinking a LED at impossible fast speeds today might pose a threat to x86-64 tomo... maybe a bit further from that, but you get the point16:34
honestlyI know someone who is making specialised hardware for processing / distributing / transmitting RF signals / video streams / stuff like that and it's all fpga-based16:35
honestlyof course it's a boutique thing, but it's economically viable and the barrier to entry isn't dramatic16:35
honestlyif you can get the whole idea of how HDLs work into your head16:36
honestlywhich 90% of people exposed to it don't16:37
honestlybut that's the same as for software programming (:16:37
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hurriananyways, i'm heading off for the night, been nice talking to y'all!16:42
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honestlynow my n900 stops charging without me seeing a disconnect or an error in the usb host computer19:56
honestly's log :/19:56
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DocScrutinizer05((<hurrian> as for phones, I think it'd be reasonably sane to assume DMA between host CPU and peripherals)) NOPE! not at all22:09
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DocScrutinizer05(([2014-07-06 Sun 15:26:29] <dos1> which kinda breaks the whole idea about certification for me)) right on, right on!22:15
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DocScrutinizer05((<honestly> now my n900 stops charging)) a quite fuzzy claim. What exactly is it that "stopped"? The blinking LED, the icon in systray, the 'charging' status of the charger chip, the current flowing into battery cell?22:21
honestlyLED and icon22:21
DocScrutinizer05that doesn't mean anything yet22:21
honestlyI can't diagnose anything else22:21
honestlyalso, the phone isn't warming up22:21
DocScrutinizer05oh? you can't? why?22:22
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infobotmethinks bq27k-detail is
DocScrutinizer05cat /sys/*/*/*/*/*/charger22:23
DocScrutinizer05cat /sys/*/*/*/*/*/vbus22:23
DocScrutinizer05sorry for the bogus "Version=0.1" dunno if that's been me (lazy) or by bad example from Nokia. freedesktop org dpecifies this is version of the .desktop syntax and always has to be =1 for now22:28
DocScrutinizer05specifies, even22:28
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DocScrutinizer05cat `find /sys -iname vbus`22:34
DocScrutinizer05the 2nd line ('0' or '1' is showing voltage on USB22:34
DocScrutinizer05the 2nd line ('0' or '1') is showing voltage on USB22:34
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DocScrutinizer05cat `find /sys -iname charger`22:35
DocScrutinizer05detects and prints D+- short status, aka fastcharger signalling22:36
DocScrutinizer05NB that this *might* break or at least introduce data errors into USB data transfers22:37
DocScrutinizer05since to detect D+- short the kernel will reconfigure the USB PHY in a way that's not compatible to a established USB connection22:37
honestlyerr, what22:39
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honestlyoh right22:39
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honestlythe stuff I ordered from is not going to arrive22:43
DocScrutinizer05~listkey charge22:44
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys charge22:44
infobotFactoid search of 'charge' by key (6): cmd: depth charge (.*?) ;; solar charger ;; voipcharges ;; cmd: depth charge (.?*) #DEL# ;; visor recharge hack ;; guy in charge of the sub.22:44
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, speedyham is, or in cssu-thumb, or 30 times faster than HAM23:53
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Siceloif i install speedyham, does it replace stock HAM? i'm on CSSU-T currently23:54
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dos1Sicelo: "speedyham" is just an informal name given to newer version of HAM23:57
dos1with fixes that make it "speedy"23:57
Sicelocool. just wanted to understand.23:58
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