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| sixwheeledbeast | So we have a recommended source for the tiny PH00 screws holding the display module together? | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| sixwheeledbeast | s/So/Do/ | 00:14 |
| infobot | sixwheeledbeast meant: Do we have a recommended source for the tiny PH00 screws holding the display module together? | 00:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | not really | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they are pretty standard, on interwenbs you can get a dozen per cent, or you pay 7$ for 4 | 02:10 |
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| Maxdamantus | Hmm.. apparently the other windows switch to portrait when the calling application pops up, while portrait mode for other things is disabled. | 05:20 |
| * Maxdamantus wonders if setting the dialing pad to landscape will help. | 05:20 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the problem that complete screen "riotates" when going portrait. Of course this will be seen on other windows as well until the dialer actually shows up. Switching to another task is supposed to switch to landscape when that task's display is set to show in landscape, but again switching to other window and rotating screen might have a time skew/delay between them. | 05:53 |
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| *** Blake is now known as Guest93593 | 05:54 | |
| Guest93593 | Is jOERG here? | 05:55 |
| Guest93593 | I'm the dude who made edits to the dual SIM article btw | 05:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably tasks that have no particular setting/preference will get displayed in whatever format the last foreground task left it | 05:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's me ;-) | 05:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi! | 05:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~joerg | 05:56 |
| infobot | hmm... joerg is a natural born EE, ex HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, now mainly involved in maintenance of maemo and N900. Usually known as DocScrutinizer. Initiator of http://neo900.org | 05:56 |
| Guest93593 | Hey | 05:56 |
| Guest93593 | Tried to explain things in a simple, straightforward manner as much as possible, but any input on my edits will be much appreciated. | 05:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just found the https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dual_SIM&oldid=605949464#Dual_SIM_Dual_Standby_.28DSDS.29 more enlightening / to the point | 05:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but my texting is abysmal, that's why usually Sebastian and Werner do that ;-) | 05:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (aka dos1, wpwrak) | 05:59 |
| Guest93593 | I'd prefer it to be a tad brief though | 05:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nothing bad about brief, as long as it's clear that Pseudo-Dual and Dual-SIM-Dual-Standby are two completely different links | 06:00 |
| Guest93593 | yup | 06:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | things** | 06:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/links/things/ | 06:01 |
| Guest93593 | How's this one? | 06:01 |
| Guest93593 | "Dual standby phones allows both SIMs to be accessed through [[time multiplexing]], but only one of the SIMs can be used at a time when making calls." | 06:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1430792#post1430792 might explain a tad better | 06:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's perfect | 06:02 |
| Guest93593 | Basically, DSDS works with the modem listening into both networks on just one receiver | 06:03 |
| Guest93593 | right? | 06:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | right | 06:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | modern modems always sleep for a few seconds, then listen for a short while if an inbound call gets signalled, then go asleep again | 06:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously during sleep period the modem can listen to another band (or even several others) | 06:05 |
| Guest93593 | sorta like multitasking | 06:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly same | 06:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with same requirements to save context of one task and restore context of the other one | 06:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thus hte modem needs sufficient RAM to do DSDS | 06:06 |
| Guest93593 | figures | 06:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it neeeds only one RX/TX | 06:06 |
| Guest93593 | what about the MTK-based phones, i.e. the MT6572? | 06:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SIM is inactive and even powered down for hours, before modem needs it again | 06:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the MTK does DSDS | 06:07 |
| Guest93593 | The Lenovo I'm using right now is Dual SIM, but there's no mention of what tech it uses | 06:07 |
| Guest93593 | Ah noted | 06:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the modems we initially planned to use for Neo900 were MTK based and offered dual SIM | 06:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GM601/801, iirc | 06:08 |
| Guest93593 | only prob is with Mediatek being an ass when it comes to open-source | 06:09 |
| Guest93593 | from what I heard | 06:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, for the modem there's no chance for ever seing sth like open source | 06:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seeing* | 06:09 |
| Guest93593 | So projects like Replicant are basically a pipe dream | 06:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the radio stack is closed by legal requirements even | 06:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, since replicant doesn't run on the modem | 06:10 |
| Guest93593 | They had more than enough trouble with dealing with GPU drivers | 06:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we have a Linux CPU that's completely detached (except for a data link, e.g. USB) from modem | 06:11 |
| Luke-Jr | DocScrutinizer05: I thought it was just legal paranoia? No court rulings on that, are there? | 06:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, the modem needs cert. The cert includes the firmware/software | 06:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | changing software voids certification | 06:11 |
| Luke-Jr | DocScrutinizer05: sure, but no reason AFAIK the source for that can't be released | 06:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're operating an illegal device | 06:12 |
| Luke-Jr | if you make use of it, yes | 06:12 |
| robbiethe1st | Does anyone actually care, once you've got it in the user's hands? | 06:12 |
| robbiethe1st | I mean... unless I turn it into a jammer... | 06:12 |
| Luke-Jr | (although I imagine the laws have some exceptions for testing/development…?) | 06:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, when a phone is known to usually get abused, you *will* be in trouble | 06:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Luke-Jr: actually not even then. Even in lab you *should* ensure that your DUT doesn't emit RF | 06:13 |
| Guest93593 | Reminds me of the issues with AMPS phones | 06:13 |
| Luke-Jr | DocScrutinizer05: sure, I mean exceptions to the cert | 06:13 |
| Luke-Jr | in the lab, you won't have a cert yet | 06:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you go testing in the field, you coordinate with carier about it | 06:13 |
| Guest93593 | My old man was quite pissed off when he found out that his cellphone line was being tapped for fraudulent phone calls | 06:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe | 06:14 |
| Luke-Jr | too bad government is so .. slow. seems like they should just do digital signatures on firmware images themselves ;) | 06:14 |
| Luke-Jr | "to flash this within US territory, wait for a GPS lock, then upload firmware signed by <regulatory agency>" | 06:15 |
| Guest93593 | Some asshole tapped into his phone, placed calls on different locations, and left him with a hefty postpaid bill | 06:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the firmwares are signed and thus no way to tamper with them. But that's part of modem manuf's responsibility | 06:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Luke-Jr: see | 06:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki tivoization | 06:16 |
| infobot | At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization (URL), Wikipedia explains: "'Tivoization' {{IPAc-en|Ë|t|iË|v|oÊ|ɨ|Ë|z|eɪ|Ê|Én}} is the creation of a system that incorporates software under the terms of a copyleft software license (like the GPL), but uses hardware restrictions to prevent users from running modified versions of the software on that hardware. Richard Stallman coined the term in reference to TiVo's use of GNU GPL licensed softwa | 06:16 |
| Luke-Jr | DocScrutinizer05: right, my point is such things, while perhaps GPL-incompatible, don't prevent open sourcing under some less protective license | 06:16 |
| Luke-Jr | eg, perhaps BSD or something | 06:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | another aspect is that there are literally 1000 man years in such a firmware, and that's an asset the company won't disclose as FOSS | 06:17 |
| Luke-Jr | meh, that's the same old excuse used for any proprietary sw | 06:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 06:17 |
| Guest93593 | how about this? | 06:18 |
| Guest93593 | Dual standby phones allows both SIMs to be accessed through time multiplexing. When making or receiving calls, the modem locks to the active channel... | 06:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but you won't find a way to convince Ericsson or Siemens/Gemalto or whomever to go FOSS with their radio stack | 06:18 |
| Luke-Jr | DocScrutinizer05: isn't there an open GSM stack? | 06:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Guest93593: perfect | 06:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Luke-Jr: OsmocomBB | 06:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GSM only, and there not even EDGE | 06:19 |
| Guest93593 | Mind if you guys provide some further explanation on what I wrote? | 06:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and only available for TI Calypso | 06:19 |
| Luke-Jr | does it run on the same modems that could run a non-free 3/4G stack? | 06:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ | 06:20 |
| * Luke-Jr looks it up | 06:20 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Guest93593: what do you want to know? | 06:20 |
| Guest93593 | Modem locks to the active channel when a call is made, but what's next? | 06:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe missing: "...while the other cannel is "not available" during that time" | 06:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/channel is/channel gets ignored and thus is/ | 06:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/cannel is/channel gets ignored and thus is/ | 06:22 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: maybe missing: "...while the other channel gets ignored and thus is "not available" during that time" | 06:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | next: the call proceeds. After call terminates, the modem resumes scanning both channels | 06:22 |
| Guest93593 | "Dual standby phones allows both SIMs to be accessed through time multiplexing. When making or receiving calls, the modem locks to the active channel; the other channel would be ignored and thus unavailable during the duration of the call." | 06:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pretty simple logic | 06:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes. exactly | 06:23 |
| Guest93593 | That's 'swell | 06:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe a sidenote: hefty data traffic and a call are basically same for a modem | 06:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but the modem can interrupt data, it cannot interrupt a call | 06:25 |
| Guest93593 | yup | 06:25 |
| Guest93593 | "Dual standby phones, such as those running on Mediatek chipsets..." | 06:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | depends on implementation | 06:25 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 has to get some food, and a nice coffee. alas this means leaving the flat and facing big bluebox. bbl | 06:26 | |
| Guest93593 | cya dude | 06:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 06:27 |
| Guest93593 | well I have to eat sume lunch anyway | 06:27 |
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| pluschan_ | ~flasher | 06:34 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, flasher is at http://www.jedge.com/n810/flasher/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz (also .exe!), or http://www.chakra-project.org/ccr/packages.php?ID=5027 or generally http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz. HARMattan(N9): https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fl/flasher-harmattan/flasher-harmattan.tar.gz, or -- list of filenames/md5sums: http://pastebin.com/sYKdNJSH, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ | 06:34 |
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| pluschan_ | ~combined | 06:38 |
| infobot | rumour has it, combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ | 06:38 |
| pluschan_ | ~emmc | 06:38 |
| infobot | [emmc] magnet:?xt=urn:btih:402fb5cc8a48ecbc18a77c9cf70d869a775bcf53&dn=RX-51%5F2009SE%5F10.2010.13-2.VANILLA%5FPR%5FEMMC%5FMR0%5FARM.bin or https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105928/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.torrent, or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2010/5/--FID--A0A22YHFSICNA/--LID--FiRe1275051276916/AE98ED9D_RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin | 06:38 |
| pluschan_ | thanks. ^^ | 06:39 |
| pluschan_ | ~sb | 06:39 |
| infobot | methinks scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB | 06:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yw :-9 | 06:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 06:39 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | DocScrutinizer05: Thanks, so do they have a set length or order number I need to look for. | 16:26 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Maxdamantus: Which version of CSSU do you have the issue with rotation. | 16:26 |
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| Maxdamantus | sixwheeledbeast: hm. I'm not sure how to determine what version it is. | 17:04 |
| Maxdamantus | The problem's fairly simple though: I disabled the rotation (iirc, using gconf) because I often have a bunch of browser windows left open, and it takes a while to rotate them (probably moving them out of and back into swap), and I always just used it in landscape anyway. | 17:05 |
| Maxdamantus | But the phone application rotated still, as it does without CSSU, but it also rotates the browser windows in the background. | 17:06 |
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| Maxdamantus | Dunno if the normal Nokia distribution rotates windows in the background when using the phone application. | 17:07 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | Maxdamantus: you should then lock the phone application | 17:08 |
| arcean | Maxdamantus: that's how it was designed to be | 17:08 |
| sixwheeledbeast | call-ui has it's own rotation settings | 17:08 |
| Maxdamantus | I just set the phone application to landscape mode (it's a setting within the application—dunno if it's CSSU) | 17:08 |
| Maxdamantus | Yeah. | 17:09 |
| Maxdamantus | arcean: how what was designed to be? | 17:09 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Has that "fixed your issue | 17:09 |
| arcean | i was talking about "Dunno if the normal Nokia distribution rotates windows in the background when using the phone application." | 17:09 |
| Maxdamantus | arcean: seems like a weird thing to design it to do, seeing as they'll always rotate back to landscape before you manage to focus them. | 17:10 |
| Maxdamantus | (in the Nokia distribution) | 17:10 |
| sixwheeledbeast | #maemo getversion | 17:11 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~getversion | 17:11 |
| infobot | getversion is probably "input the following in a terminal 'osso-product-info | grep OSSO_VERSION | cut -d "'" -f 2; dpkg-query -W -f='${Version} ' mp-fremantle-community-pr; uname -r'" | 17:11 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Maxdamantus: ^^ can you get the output of above please. | 17:11 |
| Maxdamantus | <unknown> | 17:11 |
| Maxdamantus | The "Device info" or whatever it is in Settings says something like "(null") | 17:12 |
| sixwheeledbeast | mmm | 17:12 |
| * Maxdamantus wonders where it gets the information. | 17:13 | |
| Maxdamantus | `strace -e open -f osso-product-info` only shows it opening .sos. | 17:13 |
| Maxdamantus | (and ld.so.cache) | 17:14 |
| sixwheeledbeast | so the output of the above command is <unknown> with nothing after it? | 17:14 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I'd at least expect the dkpg-query to work | 17:14 |
| Maxdamantus | Oh, I didn't run the dpkg-query bit. | 17:14 |
| sixwheeledbeast | the whole thing please | 17:15 |
| sixwheeledbeast | don't include the 'quotes around the command' | 17:15 |
| Maxdamantus | It looks like there's an extra single quote in that command btw | 17:17 |
| Maxdamantus | 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo9.1 2.6.28.10-cssu1 | 17:17 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | Maxdamantus: so that's your version, thumb and no kp | 17:29 |
| sixwheeledbeast | It looks like there is but there isn't an extra quote, it's the cut command | 17:30 |
| Maxdamantus | Actually, I was thinking about the: .. uname -r'" | 17:31 |
| Maxdamantus | but now I see that there's both a double quote and a single quote at th ebeginning. | 17:31 |
| Maxdamantus | "input the following in a terminal '.. | 17:31 |
| sixwheeledbeast | yep, I think it maybe a good idea to remove the quotes around things. | 17:32 |
| sixwheeledbeast | it could be confusing | 17:32 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | no, infobot #maemo getversion is input the following in a terminal: osso-product-info | grep OSSO_VERSION | cut -d "'" -f 2; dpkg-query -W -f='${Version} ' mp-fremantle-community-pr; uname -r | 17:34 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~getversion | 17:34 |
| infobot | somebody said getversion was "input the following in a terminal 'osso-product-info | grep OSSO_VERSION | cut -d "'" -f 2; dpkg-query -W -f='${Version} ' mp-fremantle-community-pr; uname -r'" | 17:34 |
| Maxdamantus | ~getversion =~ s/"input/input/ | 17:36 |
| infobot | Maxdamantus: i didn't have anything called 'getversion' to modify | 17:36 |
| Maxdamantus | ~#maemo getversion =~ s/"input/input/ | 17:36 |
| infobot | Maxdamantus: OK | 17:36 |
| Maxdamantus | ~#maemo getversion =~ s/r'"/r'/ | 17:36 |
| infobot | Maxdamantus: OK | 17:36 |
| Maxdamantus | ~#maemo getversion =~ s/ 'osso/: osso/ | 17:36 |
| infobot | Maxdamantus: OK | 17:36 |
| Maxdamantus | ~getversion | 17:36 |
| infobot | i guess getversion is input the following in a terminal: osso-product-info | grep OSSO_VERSION | cut -d "'" -f 2; dpkg-query -W -f='${Version} ' mp-fremantle-community-pr; uname -r' | 17:36 |
| Maxdamantus | er, one more. | 17:36 |
| Maxdamantus | ~#maemo getversion =~ s/r'/r/ | 17:37 |
| infobot | that doesn't contain 'r'', Maxdamantus | 17:37 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~getversion | 17:37 |
| infobot | rumour has it, getversion is input the following in a terminal: osso-product-info | grep OSSO_VERSION | cut -d "'" -f 2; dpkg-query -W -f='${Version} ' mp-fremantle-community-pr; uname -r | 17:37 |
| sixwheeledbeast | done | 17:37 |
| Maxdamantus | Ah. | 17:37 |
| sixwheeledbeast | missed the ~ the first time | 17:37 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | Anyway Maxdamantus is your rotation issue fixed? | 17:38 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I wanted to see if you where on CSSU-S which still has a rotation bug in hildon-desktop. | 17:39 |
| sixwheeledbeast | However you are not. | 17:39 |
| Maxdamantus | Depends what you mean by fixed. | 17:40 |
| Maxdamantus | It shouldn't arise for me anymore, because I set the phone application to stay in landscape mode. | 17:40 |
| Maxdamantus | but the software won't've changed. If I set it back to portrait, I suspect it'll still rotate the windows in the background. | 17:41 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | I see, will I think what you describe is correct if I have understood correctly. | 17:42 |
| Maxdamantus | (note: I also configured the desktop not to switch between portrait/landscope generally) | 17:42 |
| sixwheeledbeast | s/will/well/ | 17:42 |
| infobot | sixwheeledbeast meant: I see, well I think what you describe is correct if I have understood correctly. | 17:42 |
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| Maxdamantus | So with the phone application in portrait mode, if I exit it or go to the window switcher thing, it'll rotate back to landscape. | 17:43 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | the phone application and browser has there own settings everything else will follow hildon-desktop if there rotation compatible. | 17:45 |
| sixwheeledbeast | So yes to your question if you have desktop set to landscape only. | 17:46 |
| Maxdamantus | Except the other applications follow the phone application, but unless the system's lagging, you don't notice because it switches back to landscape as you switch to the other applications. | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sixwheeledbeast: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools#no_autorotating | 17:53 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Yes locking h-d from rotating browser and phone have separate settings. | 18:06 |
| * sixwheeledbeast boots his testing N900 | 18:07 | |
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| sixwheeledbeast | Right I understand. But this is a none issue really. You shouldn't see the other applications as pressing task switcher, switches everything to landscape again before there shown. You would have to have weird transitions settings to even notice. | 18:15 |
| Maxdamantus | or lots of browser windows open. | 18:17 |
| Maxdamantus | The problem was that the browser windows caused the system to lag when someone called, so I couldn't answer it. | 18:17 |
| Maxdamantus | someone calls, phone application opens, twenty web pages begin to rotate. | 18:17 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | Ah, I see. Well stock Maemo wouldn't have done this as desktop ui never rotated before. | 18:29 |
| Maxdamantus | Not even the phone application? | 18:32 |
| Maxdamantus | or are you saying that applications don't rotate in the background there? | 18:33 |
| sixwheeledbeast | in the background, the phone application rotated | 18:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | general advice: never keep many microB windows open, always close a window after you finished with what you opened it for | 18:42 |
| * Maxdamantus doesn't often finish what he opens web pages for. | 18:43 | |
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| * Maxdamantus has 361 tabs open on his computer. | 18:43 | |
| Maxdamantus | and 13 PDFs open on one desktop. | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, me too. But I hardly ever open a browser window on N900 | 18:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and when I do, I don't switch to other tasks, rather I close the browser window to go to other task | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | browser windows are memory (and cpu) hogs by design | 18:47 |
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| Maxdamantus | I think by design, they're not in browserd. | 18:55 |
| Maxdamantus | It looks like they forget everything after a while and just keep a picture of the page. | 18:55 |
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| Maxdamantus | So when you focus the window again it reloads the page and jumps to where you were. | 18:56 |
| Maxdamantus | or when the window gets rotated. | 18:57 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Difference here is tabs are minimized on your desktop however in microVB there is a window for every one. Not good for resources even on thumb | 19:04 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I would seriously hope that browser pages are not continuously redrawn while you are doing something else | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you for sure have a canvas for each browser window/tab | 19:12 |
| Maxdamantus | I don't think windows vs. tabs should make much of a difference? | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that canvas is even larger on desktop than in microB | 19:12 |
| Maxdamantus | I suspect most people have at least 30 X windows open on their N900 normally anyway. | 19:13 |
| bencoh | hmm ... I dont | 19:13 |
| Maxdamantus | Every widget and icon on the desktop is a window. | 19:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thus no, tabs vs windows makes no diff, unless you're using FF which rneders tabs only when you activate them | 19:13 |
| bencoh | (same as Doc) | 19:13 |
| * Maxdamantus doesn't, because he doesn't have much on his desktop. | 19:14 | |
| * Maxdamantus has four icons. | 19:14 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a desktop icon is maybe 50*50, a microB canvas prolly 1000*1000 | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway my swap usage is usually pretty moderate or even humble | 19:16 |
| Maxdamantus | Are you thinking about resources the compositor has to deal with? | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I never suffer the "slows down after 3 days" swap fragmentation issue | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since nothing swaps, usually | 19:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | who cares abozut compositor? | 19:17 |
| bencoh | ? | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | go fullscreen and no compositor involved at all | 19:17 |
| bencoh | :) | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is what they told me | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sill a 20 microB windows will kill your swap | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | still* | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since every single one has a canvas (prolly from X) that's pretty huge | 19:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | several MB | 19:19 |
| FIQ | <Maxdamantus> I suspect most people have at least 30 X windows open on their N900 normally anyway. | 19:20 |
| FIQ | this is me | 19:20 |
| FIQ | and I hate microB's lack of tabs | 19:20 |
| FIQ | *was | 19:20 |
| Maxdamantus | I don't think X maintains a buffer for stuff that's not visible. | 19:20 |
| FIQ | *hated | 19:20 |
| Maxdamantus | but compositors normally do. | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, I can open 100 windows and device still snappy. When those windows are not greedy | 19:20 |
| sixwheeledbeast | well for tabbed browsing try Opera | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Maxdamantus: the browser does | 19:21 |
| Maxdamantus | Yes, the browser seems to. | 19:21 |
| Maxdamantus | either that or the compositor does. | 19:21 |
| Maxdamantus | It could just be the compositor .. seems like a sensible optimisation. | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again: those who should know told us that compositor is only used e.g. for the title bar/systray | 19:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc | 19:24 |
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| Maxdamantus | So how does it make the small pictures of windows? | 19:25 |
| Maxdamantus | in the task switcher | 19:25 |
| bencoh | DocScrutinizer05: you mean you tested with 100 xterm ? ;) | 19:25 |
| * Maxdamantus wrote a command here to launch lots of xterms with random colours once. | 19:26 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | bencoh: exactly. well, almost | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there been a news on the nets a 4 or 5 years ago: "XY(some android crap?) runs 12 tasks concurrently!" We went MUHAHAHABWAHA here and somebody opened 117(iirc) windows on N900 | 19:38 |
| bencoh | :) | 19:39 |
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| FIQ | haha | 19:50 |
| FIQ | the fact that N900 had swap in additional to its' 256MB RAM really helped back when high-end *was* 256MB RAM | 19:51 |
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| * Maxdamantus is running his IRC client on a machine with the same amount. | 19:54 | |
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| kerio | hah | 20:11 |
| kerio | the client runs on my laptop (16gb) and the bouncer runs on a server with 32gb | 20:11 |
| * kerio never swaps | 20:11 | |
| knott_rays | my server only has 512mb and the secondary server has 4gb | 20:13 |
| Maxdamantus | 512 millibits isn't much. | 20:14 |
| knott_rays | main disk is 2gb | 20:14 |
| knott_rays | and there is a 32gb stick too | 20:15 |
| Maxdamantus | Not sure what that is. Two gram bits? | 20:15 |
| Maxdamantus | Though that should be written g b, not gb | 20:15 |
| knott_rays | gigabytes and megabytes | 20:15 |
| kerio | woosh | 20:15 |
| Maxdamantus | Oh, GB, MB | 20:15 |
| kerio | Maxdamantus, the SI fetishist | 20:15 |
| knott_rays | yes, I know.. shift is so far away on this keyboard | 20:16 |
| kerio | it should be GiB anyway | 20:16 |
| Maxdamantus | Though I suspect you're actually talking about gibibytes and mebibytes, since they're RAM sizes. | 20:16 |
| kerio | i wonder why ram producers didn't go the hard disk producers' route | 20:16 |
| Maxdamantus | Heh. | 20:16 |
| * Maxdamantus has 34.359738368 GB of RAM in his current machine. | 20:17 | |
| kerio | i have 17.179869184 GB | 20:17 |
| knott_rays | and my stupid windows 7 says 21GB | 20:18 |
| kerio | u wot m8 | 20:18 |
| Maxdamantus | He Windows 7 mate. | 20:19 |
| knott_rays | (actually 8GB but this has too many hard drives with paging/swap) | 20:19 |
| ecc3g | Dammit need more ram on my VM server. It only has 6GB RAM... | 20:21 |
| kerio | mine is a dedicated server | 20:21 |
| kerio | and i don't even pay for it | 20:21 |
| Maxdamantus | I think you mean 8.589934592 GB | 20:22 |
| Maxdamantus | (aka 8 GiB) | 20:22 |
| kerio | who are you to decide how much ram he has? | 20:22 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm just guessing. | 20:22 |
| kerio | maybe he has 5.58GiB of ram | 20:22 |
| Maxdamantus | Oh, he said 6. | 20:23 |
| Maxdamantus | I think he means 6.442450944 GB then. | 20:23 |
| kerio | you've been already proven wrong at least once | 20:23 |
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| ecc3g | With a VM, it's not unreasonable to have 6.0GB of RAM... | 20:28 |
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| Maxdamantus | Depends what you consider to be RAM. | 20:29 |
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| Maxdamantus | I wouldn't consider it to be dependent on the software. | 20:29 |
| Maxdamantus | Some of my RAM is used by the onboard graphics card .. doesn't mean I have any less RAM. | 20:30 |
| ecc3g | but if you can't use more than the amount of ram the hypervisor limited you to... then you have exactly that much... | 20:30 |
| Maxdamantus | That's a fairly arbitrary delimitation. | 20:31 |
| Maxdamantus | Why not exclude the memory used by the kernel, since you can't use that either? | 20:31 |
| ecc3g | you are using the kernel memory | 20:31 |
| Maxdamantus | No. The kernel is using the kernel memory. | 20:31 |
| ecc3g | but it's your kernel, reduce the size of the kernel if you want more user memory | 20:31 |
| Maxdamantus | Just as the hypervisor is using the hypervisor memory that you can't see if you're in a VM. | 20:31 |
| Maxdamantus | and the memory used by other VM. | 20:32 |
| Maxdamantus | VMs* | 20:32 |
| Maxdamantus | So if I run a VM, it's not my VM? | 20:32 |
| Maxdamantus | but if I run a kernel, that's my kernel? | 20:32 |
| ecc3g | hypervisor memory isn't your memory. | 20:32 |
| Maxdamantus | Sure it is, if I own the machine. | 20:32 |
| ecc3g | it's not if you don't. | 20:32 |
| Maxdamantus | If you don't own the machine, you don't have any of its RAM. | 20:32 |
| ecc3g | then kerio doesn't have any memory. | 20:33 |
| kerio | your mom doesn't have any memory | 20:33 |
| kerio | i think his point is that ram has to be a physical chipset | 20:38 |
| Maxdamantus | and that delimiting it to a "VM" is just as arbitrary as delimiting it to anything else you happen to have access to. | 20:41 |
| * Maxdamantus sleeps. | 20:43 | |
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| ecc3g | You have 16GiB RAM when you rented your VM for 4GB, because the host has 16GiB. | 20:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | ~ping | 23:00 |
| infobot | ~pong | 23:00 |
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