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| vi__ | who is a secure email provider that will not read all my suff like google? | 12:03 |
| vi__ | ^stuff | 12:03 |
| Wizzup | you | 12:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | web.de maybe | 12:04 |
| *** drussell has quit IRC | 12:05 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they MUST NOT | 12:05 |
| LinuxCode | every government will read your email | 12:06 |
| LinuxCode | if you want to know if they do want to, run your own email service | 12:07 |
| LinuxCode | also, as you connect from the UK, RIPA will get you anyway | 12:08 |
| LinuxCode | top tip , RIPA does not apply in Germany | 12:08 |
| jaska | ripa = avoid uk like the plague in general. | 12:08 |
| LinuxCode | indeed | 12:08 |
| LinuxCode | but then if you live here, they just raid your home and DEMAND the key | 12:09 |
| LinuxCode | no win situation | 12:09 |
| jon_y | use gnupg? | 12:09 |
| LinuxCode | US is no different either, you are in contempt of court, if you dont reveal | 12:09 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, RIPA == give key or ggo direct to jail | 12:09 |
| jon_y | send useless mundane mails as white noise filler | 12:09 |
| LinuxCode | do not collect £200 , do not go over go | 12:10 |
| jon_y | sure they can have stuff from urandom passed through a arkov bot | 12:10 |
| jon_y | *markov | 12:10 |
| jaska | also they will extradite their own citizens outside eu etc. | 12:10 |
| LinuxCode | what is worse, we are happy to do so | 12:10 |
| LinuxCode | especially to the US | 12:11 |
| LinuxCode | did you ever hear the phone call between the FBI and the MET ? | 12:11 |
| jon_y | COIN needs to be a basic school subject | 12:11 |
| LinuxCode | like a bunch of good mates | 12:11 |
| jon_y | COIN 101: how to twart spies | 12:11 |
| LinuxCode | it should not be like that | 12:11 |
| LinuxCode | they are foreign agents | 12:11 |
| LinuxCode | I think we should repatriate anything extradition related | 12:12 |
| LinuxCode | and never extradite anyone | 12:12 |
| LinuxCode | convict them here | 12:12 |
| jon_y | CounterIntelligence is fun, as long as you don't loose track of who is double/tripple/disloyal | 12:12 |
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| jon_y | LinuxCode: you're from the UK? | 12:13 |
| LinuxCode | indeed | 12:14 |
| jon_y | English? | 12:14 |
| LinuxCode | but I am lucky enough to speak German | 12:14 |
| LinuxCode | Yes | 12:14 |
| LinuxCode | why ? | 12:14 |
| jon_y | so I heard rumors of English nationalism wanting out of the UK | 12:14 |
| jon_y | something weird like that | 12:14 |
| LinuxCode | nationalism ?!?!? | 12:14 |
| jon_y | not sure if it was a joke | 12:14 |
| LinuxCode | huh ? | 12:14 |
| jon_y | yes | 12:14 |
| LinuxCode | whatever that means | 12:15 |
| jon_y | they want their own special parliment | 12:15 |
| LinuxCode | ohhh | 12:15 |
| jon_y | *parliament | 12:15 |
| LinuxCode | well they should have one | 12:15 |
| andre__ | very unlikely. | 12:15 |
| jaska | scots? | 12:15 |
| andre__ | You might mean Scottish instead | 12:15 |
| jon_y | no, English | 12:15 |
| LinuxCode | the only home nation without one | 12:15 |
| jon_y | the Scots too wanted their own | 12:15 |
| andre__ | [citation needed] :) | 12:15 |
| LinuxCode | look at it as a regional parliament | 12:15 |
| andre__ | not "wanted". They will have an election about that soon. | 12:15 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, the scots have their own | 12:16 |
| jaska | its all england to me anyway. | 12:16 |
| LinuxCode | the independence referendum is a totally different story | 12:16 |
| jon_y | I'm really curious about what the local opinion is | 12:17 |
| LinuxCode | for what ? | 12:17 |
| jon_y | about Scottish independence | 12:17 |
| jon_y | not being anywhere near the UK kind of makes it hard to find out | 12:17 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, hard to figure out what people in Scotland will do | 12:18 |
| LinuxCode | also, the referendum is a bit of a joke | 12:18 |
| jon_y | jaska: England is the Southern half of Britain, minus the south west, those are welsh | 12:18 |
| LinuxCode | I have Scottish neighbours, will they be able to vote ? | 12:18 |
| LinuxCode | nope | 12:18 |
| LinuxCode | who knows, they might end up being foreigners | 12:19 |
| LinuxCode | soon | 12:19 |
| LinuxCode | to Scotland itself | 12:19 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 12:19 |
| LinuxCode | how ironic that would be | 12:19 |
| jon_y | hmm, perhaps Scots in England don't care too much about it | 12:19 |
| LinuxCode | ohh they do | 12:19 |
| LinuxCode | most of them want the status quo | 12:19 |
| jpinx_ | wrong | 12:19 |
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| * andre__ gets some popcorn and watches | 12:19 | |
| * jon_y too | 12:19 | |
| LinuxCode | jpinx_, you are telling me my neighbours are lying to me | 12:20 |
| LinuxCode | ? | 12:20 |
| jpinx | yes | 12:20 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 12:20 |
| LinuxCode | OOOK | 12:20 |
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| jpinx | only speaking for themselves | 12:20 |
| LinuxCode | of course they speak for themselves | 12:20 |
| LinuxCode | who else are they going to speak for | 12:20 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 12:20 |
| jon_y | jaska: are you in Scotland? | 12:20 |
| jon_y | uh | 12:20 |
| jon_y | I mean jpinx | 12:21 |
| jpinx | "most of them " ??? | 12:21 |
| jaska | (no) | 12:21 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, it is irrelevant anyway | 12:21 |
| LinuxCode | they dont get to vote | 12:21 |
| LinuxCode | nor does the rest of the UK | 12:22 |
| jpinx | nothing irrelevant about scotting idependence | 12:22 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, did I say that ? | 12:22 |
| jpinx | nothing irrelevant about scottish independence | 12:22 |
| * LinuxCode rolls eyes | 12:22 | |
| jpinx | irrelevant is spellchecker :/ | 12:22 |
| * jpinx rolls them back | 12:22 | |
| jon_y | if it does happen, I wonder if the naval bases will remain exclaves | 12:23 |
| * jpinx wonders how long before someone screams OT :) | 12:23 | |
| vi__ | over 70% of the english want scotland to go independant. Over 70% of the scots want independance. However the scots would not do a thing that would make 70% of the english happy. | 12:23 |
| LinuxCode | [10:23] <jon_y> if it does happen, I wonder if the naval bases will remain exclaves | 12:23 |
| jon_y | lol | 12:23 |
| jpinx | vi__: you have a perfect understanding :D | 12:23 |
| LinuxCode | they will move | 12:23 |
| vi__ | I hope Scotland becomes independent. | 12:24 |
| jon_y | LinuxCode: kind of hard to move entire facilities | 12:24 |
| vi__ | It is the only way to break the Westminister cartel. | 12:24 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, it will happen | 12:24 |
| jpinx | they'll become bases of the scottish navy :) | 12:24 |
| LinuxCode | vi__, and the Scottish Parliament will be any different ? LOOL | 12:24 |
| jpinx | we'll be a nuclear nation in one step :) | 12:24 |
| vi__ | The only downside is those douchbags in the SNP hanging around. | 12:24 |
| LinuxCode | all politicians are a corrupt selfish bunch of bastards | 12:24 |
| jon_y | so does the British flag need to change? | 12:25 |
| LinuxCode | especially in the UK | 12:25 |
| vi__ | Vote for an independant socialist scotland! | 12:25 |
| jpinx | LinuxCode: you want tomeet a few politicans from other countries ;) | 12:25 |
| LinuxCode | I love it how the SNP promised everyone double the pension and free child care | 12:25 |
| vi__ | Yeah, they are full of shit. | 12:25 |
| jpinx | that's an insult to shit | 12:25 |
| vi__ | £600 for everyone! Free childcare! Rain to be replaced with beer! | 12:26 |
| LinuxCode | makes a mature adult discussion about the benefits and problems a real scenario | 12:26 |
| jpinx | at least it ws digested | 12:26 |
| jon_y | does the Queen's position stay intact? | 12:26 |
| jaska | think theid retain the figurehead mascot | 12:26 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, for 2 years yes | 12:26 |
| vi__ | jon_y: that would defy the point. | 12:26 |
| jpinx | keep Balmoral :) | 12:26 |
| jaska | hell, there are other countries where shes a mascot | 12:26 |
| jon_y | for 2 years? | 12:26 |
| LinuxCode | then the SNP head wants himself as president | 12:26 |
| LinuxCode | I bet you | 12:26 |
| vi__ | douchefag salmond. | 12:27 |
| LinuxCode | because that is what politicians do | 12:27 |
| jon_y | Canada, Australia and NZ still has the queen as mascot | 12:27 |
| LinuxCode | hehe | 12:27 |
| LinuxCode | mascot ?!?! | 12:27 |
| jaska | thats what i meant :) | 12:27 |
| vi__ | I cannot wait to see what wacky bullshit they come up with next. | 12:27 |
| jaska | well, the royal family is usually a mascot family these days | 12:27 |
| jon_y | well, Head of State in formal terms | 12:27 |
| vi__ | Ban the internet! Because peedos. | 12:27 |
| jaska | in most countries | 12:27 |
| LinuxCode | vi__, be kind of interesting to see what would happen | 12:27 |
| LinuxCode | but then again I think it would probably be a mistake | 12:27 |
| jpinx | Hadrians wall will be the new Scottish firewall | 12:28 |
| LinuxCode | I keep thinking about ireland | 12:28 |
| vi__ | It will suck ass for the first couple of years. | 12:28 |
| jpinx | to keep English bots out | 12:28 |
| LinuxCode | the Celtic Tiger, that got darted down | 12:28 |
| LinuxCode | lol | 12:28 |
| LinuxCode | not that the whole of the UK is doing so well | 12:28 |
| vi__ | IF we can get some decent leaders and not these SNP cunts. | 12:28 |
| jaska | i wonder if they will continue the orwellistanian legacy of the uk if they split | 12:28 |
| jon_y | what off Northern Ireland? do they still want in? | 12:28 |
| jpinx | in to what ? | 12:29 |
| jon_y | in with UK | 12:29 |
| LinuxCode | if we leave the EU we are a goner anyway | 12:29 |
| jpinx | NI is in UK | 12:29 |
| vi__ | The festering crap parade that is the UK. | 12:29 |
| jon_y | or are they too clamoring for independence | 12:29 |
| LinuxCode | I dread that day, I make 90% of my money from there | 12:29 |
| vi__ | jon_y: that is what all the 'troubles' are about. | 12:29 |
| jpinx | jon_y: demonstrates a lack of understand of what the UK is ;) | 12:29 |
| LinuxCode | probably end up unemployed then | 12:30 |
| jon_y | yes, the troubles | 12:30 |
| jon_y | I thought it cooled down a bit after the IRA settled down | 12:30 |
| jpinx | LinuxCode: define "we" | 12:30 |
| vi__ | You know they banned the TNG episode about irish space terrorists in the UK? | 12:30 |
| LinuxCode | we == any part of the UK | 12:30 |
| LinuxCode | if the Scots vote out, they will be out of the EU | 12:30 |
| jpinx | not including scotland :) | 12:30 |
| LinuxCode | no two ways around it | 12:30 |
| jaska | lol. | 12:31 |
| jon_y | so Scotland wants out, does NI want out too? | 12:31 |
| jpinx | why out of eu ? | 12:31 |
| vi__ | If you are prepared to let greece in, scotchland will be gauranteed a place. | 12:31 |
| jon_y | out of UK | 12:31 |
| jaska | well, it would have a downside, the price of my preferred alcohol would rise. | 12:31 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, new countries need to apply | 12:31 |
| vi__ | ^guaranteed | 12:31 |
| jpinx | jon_y: demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of UK | 12:31 |
| jon_y | jpinx: I want to know more | 12:31 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, there is one referendum | 12:32 |
| LinuxCode | Scotland in out | 12:32 |
| jpinx | jon_y: google it ;) too long a story for in here | 12:32 |
| LinuxCode | then there is a UK referendum, if it makes it through the Lords | 12:32 |
| LinuxCode | EU in out | 12:32 |
| vi__ | jon_y: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty | 12:32 |
| jon_y | I wonder if separatism is the new in-thing now | 12:32 |
| jpinx | LinuxCode: we wit the irony of scotland out but negotiating contined membership of EU and England opting out :D | 12:33 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, how ironic it would be | 12:33 |
| LinuxCode | UK out, Scotland out by default | 12:33 |
| LinuxCode | Scotland reapplies, because that is the smart thing to do | 12:33 |
| jon_y | still doesn't come close to the situation that is China and the UN | 12:33 |
| jpinx | I think it is not going to be difficult for Scotland to stay in EU | 12:34 |
| LinuxCode | I wish the tabloid press would be forced to print truths, not fiction | 12:34 |
| jaska | haha | 12:34 |
| LinuxCode | that is what is wriong with this country | 12:34 |
| LinuxCode | people believe all the bullshit | 12:34 |
| jpinx | all press should be banned for telling lies | 12:34 |
| jaska | the sun will rise from the west long before press starts printing the truth. | 12:34 |
| LinuxCode | because they cannot think for themselves | 12:34 |
| jpinx | thinking is not permitted | 12:34 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, haha yeah, UK and thinking is def not permitted | 12:35 |
| LinuxCode | especially regarding anything which involves us being spied upon | 12:35 |
| jpinx | beaurocracy rools KO | 12:35 |
| LinuxCode | D-Notice ftw | 12:35 |
| vi__ | It is what happens when you grind the education system into the dust. | 12:35 |
| vi__ | Create a whole generation of waiters and hairdressers. | 12:35 |
| LinuxCode | vi__, that is another one of those LIES | 12:35 |
| LinuxCode | the UK education system is not much different to Germanies | 12:35 |
| LinuxCode | it is all bullshit | 12:35 |
| Hurrian | LinuxCode: Are D-Notices really no-questions-allowed? | 12:36 |
| LinuxCode | PISA listing, is also bullshit | 12:36 |
| vi__ | how much is university in Germany? | 12:36 |
| LinuxCode | vi__, ? | 12:36 |
| jon_y | PISA listing? | 12:36 |
| LinuxCode | Unis in germany are cheaper | 12:36 |
| jon_y | are they like proscription lists? | 12:36 |
| LinuxCode | PISA, ratings of schools in the world | 12:36 |
| jpinx | go to CHina | 12:36 |
| jon_y | oh ok, not related | 12:36 |
| LinuxCode | which basically is irrelevant | 12:36 |
| LinuxCode | because 99.9% of students never leave their country | 12:37 |
| LinuxCode | so who are we competing with ? | 12:37 |
| LinuxCode | and why ? | 12:37 |
| vi__ | In china you can work a slave job in the big city and make enough to buy a home in your village. | 12:37 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode: are you serious? | 12:37 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, YES | 12:37 |
| vi__ | In the UK buying a home is...expensive. | 12:37 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode, because education is about slightly more than "leaving your country", maybe? | 12:38 |
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| vi__ | We are forced to rent from a gerneration of fucks whose pensions I already pay. | 12:38 |
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| andre__ | LinuxCode, maybe your national industry needs skillful people if you also export? "Welfare"? | 12:38 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, the comparison is rubbish | 12:38 |
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| vi__ | Pay while I know that the same benefits will not be available by the time I roll around for retirement. | 12:38 |
| jon_y | oh dear this argument again | 12:38 |
| LinuxCode | comparing Germanies school system to Britain's is like comparing Apples to Pears | 12:38 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode: sure it is. but your argumentation is too. | 12:39 |
| jpinx | uni education vastly over-rated -- I know plenty of degree holders who don't know where Myanmar is | 12:39 |
| LinuxCode | although, now there it has changed to a more UK based model | 12:39 |
| LinuxCode | at least in NRW | 12:39 |
| vi__ | jpinx: that is bollox. | 12:39 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, I want skilled people that can fill positions here | 12:39 |
| LinuxCode | any sane person wants that | 12:39 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode, yeah. How is that related? | 12:39 |
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| jon_y | I know when I played as the UK in Vicky2, I managed to bankrupted the rest of EU just by trade surplus | 12:39 |
| jon_y | and it came back to bite me | 12:39 |
| LinuxCode | related to what ? | 12:39 |
| jpinx | vi__: not bollox - I was an employer for years | 12:39 |
| vi__ | There is ALWAYS work for skilled, smart people. Just because your 4 year study of the history of liberal arts could not get you a job. | 12:40 |
| jon_y | because there were no countries able to buy my goods | 12:40 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode, to "99.9% of students never leave their country" | 12:40 |
| jon_y | and I cannot pay the welfare | 12:40 |
| LinuxCode | because they dont | 12:40 |
| LinuxCode | the point is, you cannot compare education systems | 12:40 |
| LinuxCode | because it is pointless | 12:40 |
| jpinx | you can compare graduates | 12:40 |
| andre__ | you can compare knowledge levels. | 12:41 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, even that we could argue, some degrees in the Uk are a joke | 12:41 |
| jpinx | give me a chinese graduate anyday | 12:41 |
| LinuxCode | and students dont get a good education in UK unis | 12:41 |
| LinuxCode | even though we pay out of our arses | 12:41 |
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| jpinx | most western unis courses are way to specialised now | 12:41 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, ok, so what Business Studies knowledge do Abitur students have then ? | 12:41 |
| LinuxCode | NONE | 12:41 |
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| LinuxCode | Law ? None! | 12:42 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode, how short-sighted. | 12:42 |
| vi__ | You get out of uni what you put in. | 12:42 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, you cannot compare Germanies education system to the UKs | 12:42 |
| LinuxCode | FACT | 12:42 |
| andre__ | LinuxCode, you compare knowledge levels. | 12:42 |
| LinuxCode | I ahve been through both systems | 12:42 |
| jpinx | we're past comparing systems - lets compare knowledge of graduates | 12:42 |
| andre__ | Your shouting does not make you more right, sorry. | 12:42 |
| vi__ | It is an opportunity to take the next step, not a meal ticket. | 12:42 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, ok so when people say we are doing worse with Maths ? | 12:42 |
| LinuxCode | they are not comparing ? | 12:42 |
| andre__ | I have no idea who "we" is. | 12:43 |
| LinuxCode | UK | 12:43 |
| LinuxCode | andre__, where are you from ? | 12:43 |
| andre__ | I never said there is no comparing. Not sure why you write that. | 12:43 |
| andre__ | I said there is comparison of knowledge levels. You keep talking about comparison of school systems. | 12:43 |
| LinuxCode | school systems == education knowledge | 12:44 |
| LinuxCode | nvm the fact that germany has a 3 tier system | 12:44 |
| jpinx | no - education systems produce knowledge levels | 12:44 |
| jpinx | you can not say one system is better than another because it depends on the culture of that sociaety | 12:44 |
| LinuxCode | Hauptschul students will not have the same "knowledge base" as Abitur students | 12:44 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, and the school system and the subjects | 12:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what's up, channel needs a +q * or what? | 12:45 |
| jpinx | :D | 12:45 |
| LinuxCode | and the time people spend at school | 12:45 |
| * jpinx ducks | 12:45 | |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, I will shut up now | 12:45 |
| LinuxCode | ;-} | 12:45 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: hush, its nice to read thoughts | 12:45 |
| LinuxCode | pointless to discuss anyway | 12:45 |
| jpinx | LinuxCode: enjoyed :) | 12:45 |
| LinuxCode | hehe | 12:46 |
| LinuxCode | more topical, any of you have a sailfish phone ? | 12:46 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the entertainment platform :D | 12:46 |
| LinuxCode | and if so, do you like it | 12:47 |
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| jon_y | I'm from a former Uk colony, the education system here tried to hard to wipe off any notion of that time | 12:47 |
| jon_y | the Brits? they're white and theu're evil, thats all you need to know | 12:47 |
| jon_y | *they're | 12:47 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, my black friends would be insulted | 12:47 |
| LinuxCode | but we moved on ! | 12:48 |
| LinuxCode | Sailfish, nobody ? | 12:48 |
| LinuxCode | ;-| | 12:48 |
| LinuxCode | I was kind of hoping some of you would have one | 12:48 |
| jon_y | yeah well, this is what you get by letting uneducated ministers run the education ministry | 12:48 |
| jpinx | got one guy who says his mate ahs a new sailfish device, but no reports yet | 12:48 |
| jpinx | I was hoping to hear more of it and report back here | 12:49 |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, k ta | 12:49 |
| jon_y | is Sailfish GNU/Linux? | 12:49 |
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| jon_y | emphasis on the GNU part | 12:50 |
| LinuxCode | the guys could do a better job documenting it's technical features | 12:50 |
| LinuxCode | packaging system. packages available | 12:50 |
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| LinuxCode | stuff like that | 12:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL | 12:50 |
| andre__ | How does one patch KDE2 under FreeBSD? | 12:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | andre__: wut? | 12:50 |
| jon_y | I serious, I need to consider if sailfish is GNU | 12:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | TWO? | 12:50 |
| andre__ | DocScrutinizer05, you missed some memes in the past. ;) | 12:50 |
| jon_y | or is it some HTML5 pretender | 12:51 |
| * andre__ just trying to change topic to something even more offtopic | 12:51 | |
| ShadowJK | there's allegedly a working developer mode, but there's no flasher, so if you need a reflash you'll have to send it back | 12:51 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, I dont think any phone could ever be | 12:51 |
| LinuxCode | all the gsm crypto rubbish | 12:51 |
| jon_y | LinuxCode: can I run gcc/autotools/configure whatever on it? | 12:51 |
| jon_y | like I do on the desktop | 12:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: yeah, a sad poor joke, isn't it | 12:51 |
| LinuxCode | ShadowJK, really ?!?! | 12:52 |
| jon_y | maemo on the n900 can, which is why I consider it GNU enough | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ye | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes. really | 12:52 |
| LinuxCode | that is terrible | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 12:52 |
| LinuxCode | I do not fancy that | 12:52 |
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| LinuxCode | ;-[ | 12:52 |
| jaska | no flasher.. huh | 12:52 |
| jon_y | no flasher == no sale | 12:53 |
| LinuxCode | guess I will wait for another attempt at some phone based on linux that is not android | 12:53 |
| jaska | well, they were already excluded by the lack of a suitable input device. | 12:53 |
| jon_y | LinuxCode: most importantly, GNU enough | 12:53 |
| jon_y | don't want a BSD userland where it is a pain to build existing software | 12:53 |
| LinuxCode | jon_y, well, as I said, if you want gsm, you are stuffed | 12:53 |
| LinuxCode | even though a5x is totally broken | 12:54 |
| jon_y | LinuxCode: I don't mind proprietary bits | 12:54 |
| jon_y | the important part is that it is able to function well enough to GNU standards in the userland | 12:55 |
| jon_y | n900 is pretty alright even though the proprietary bits are there | 12:55 |
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| LinuxCode | jon_y, I have no idea what they are up to | 12:58 |
| LinuxCode | why I was asking here | 12:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the question is not if I can make RMS happy, I don't care. The question is if I can use my knowledge, gather new *useful* knowledge, and do/achieve what I want | 12:59 |
| LinuxCode | I hope one day, mobile hardware will just be a device like a pc mainboard | 12:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do I want to mess with GSM stack? HELL NO! | 12:59 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, heheh | 12:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | look, i'm using HDD since err 30 years now. I *never* thought about messing with the firmware in there | 13:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as long as the damn thing works and speaks proper protocol at interface | 13:01 |
| vi__ | You had an HDD in 1985? | 13:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *used* | 13:02 |
| vi__ | 500K and big as a fridge? | 13:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 13:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, actually back then they already had 50MB and were only 25kg and size of two or 3 shoe boxes | 13:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except for the 10MB *swappable* dis stacks called "pot" | 13:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | those were really units size of a huge fridge | 13:05 |
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| jaska | speaking of messing with hdd firmware.. someone booted a mmuless linux kernel on a hdd controller | 13:05 |
| ShadowJK | there was a guy that made liux run on his HD's arm cpus | 13:05 |
| jaska | yeah | 13:05 |
| jaska | that same | 13:05 |
| zamn900 | hello | 13:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I know | 13:06 |
| LinuxCode | far worse, somebody could putexploit code on there and hide it, then it reinfests your machine | 13:06 |
| LinuxCode | even though you reinstalled the machine | 13:06 |
| LinuxCode | it would just keep coming back | 13:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, if somebody has access to your HDD to put it there | 13:06 |
| LinuxCode | until you flash the HD firmware | 13:06 |
| LinuxCode | they should put a write protect jumper on drives | 13:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually a good idea | 13:07 |
| grr | Or in the mobile phone hidden inside qualcomm chip. | 13:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for modem however... you ever booted from your modem? | 13:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thus I don't give a xxx about the GSM "firmware" | 13:09 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, yeah | 13:09 |
| LinuxCode | just an api to something be good | 13:09 |
| LinuxCode | then we could all install our distribution of choice | 13:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's way less concerning to me than for example the firmware on the uSD card embedded flash controller | 13:09 |
| LinuxCode | and use it how we use our pcs | 13:09 |
| ShadowJK | grr; or in the n900 modem :) (it's capable of running an entire symbian phone on its own) | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 13:10 |
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| LinuxCode | I iwsh they would scrap a5/1 and a5/3 for a pki based system | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Neo900 will have a master off switch | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for modem | 13:11 |
| zamn900 | cool | 13:11 |
| LinuxCode | Neo900 ? | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 | 13:11 |
| kerio | Neo900! | 13:11 |
| zamn900 | matrix new n900 version ofc | 13:11 |
| zamn900 | dark glasses | 13:11 |
| LinuxCode | interesting | 13:11 |
| zamn900 | version | 13:11 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, cheers for that! | 13:12 |
| * LinuxCode bookmarks | 13:12 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bookmark DAT: neo900.org | 13:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and spread the word | 13:13 |
| zamn900 | neo is the hero spread that | 13:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the fact you didn't hear of it yet shows the need to do so | 13:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we're still short of 787 "preorders" | 13:13 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, I shamefully must admit, I have not kept track of much mobile-ish lately | 13:14 |
| grr | http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone | 13:14 |
| zamn900 | agent smith900 is still building it self? | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | grr: please bin that crap | 13:14 |
| LinuxCode | but a mate of mine is looking to upgrade his N900 | 13:14 |
| LinuxCode | I will let him know | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | grr: it's ridiculous | 13:14 |
| LinuxCode | also, I would slowly like to upgrade myself too | 13:14 |
| zamn900 | smith900 is not ridicoulus | 13:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even a complete symbian running on N900's BB5 modem couldn't do any harm to your local data and linux system at large | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not even just spy your data | 13:16 |
| zamn900 | I wait for smith900 version | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what it could do: same like a featurephone (with GPS) in your other pocket | 13:17 |
| grr | what about android phones? | 13:17 |
| zamn900 | I suppose droid is more possible and compatible | 13:17 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, you should write a blog on mobile security stuff | 13:18 |
| LinuxCode | you have a wealth of information | 13:18 |
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| LinuxCode | which would be very beneficial to the greater community | 13:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? all MINE! ;-P | 13:18 |
| jpinx | doc|home: I admit I haven't read the whole wiki, but can you tell me if the neo900 is going to be something I can screw into my old n900 case? | 13:19 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: ^^ | 13:19 |
| * jpinx is in the throes of choosing a new android replacement for the n900 | 13:20 | |
| LinuxCode | jpinx, MEH | 13:20 |
| LinuxCode | I used my old P800 for 6 years | 13:21 |
| LinuxCode | I will ruff it out with the N900 | 13:21 |
| LinuxCode | until something comes along | 13:21 |
| jpinx | I got a cheep'n'cheerful chinese android tablet to learn android. Al I learnt was that I don't like it :( | 13:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jpinx: http://neo900.org/faq#complete | 13:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | jpinx: http://neo900.org/#about | 13:26 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: thanks :) At last an update and a home for my spare n900 :D | 13:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yw | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we need another 787 supporters who demonstrate they're willing to order a unit, by donating 100+EUR | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we need those to make stuff cheaper and better | 13:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we already reached minimum to make sure we can *build* the thing | 13:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I'm redundant, it's all on the website, really | 13:33 |
| jpinx | reading..... | 13:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and still you can be part of the very exciting initial project phase where you can actually *change* things by your comments and suggestions | 13:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | your brilliant idea might make the difference | 13:37 |
| anYc | I'm still a bit wondering about how the additional 2mm in height will look like :/ | 13:37 |
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| anYc | (I saw the pic in the FAQ) | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at very least you'll understand why every single bit looks the way it does | 13:38 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: FairPhone ? www.fairphone.com | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a hoax | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's also using "unfair2 chips, since there are no other ones | 13:38 |
| jpinx | k | 13:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually afaik they build a pretty uninspired and annoying featurephone design built from "toxic" chips and assembled in some european country like Neo900 into a 2green" case made of recycled plastic | 13:40 |
| vi__ | rofl fairfone | 13:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or sth like that | 13:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's so boring I never bothered to watch the site a second time | 13:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, they don't assemble the PCB at foxcon_china, like apple does, but so do we: we build the Neo900 in Bavaria | 13:42 |
| kerio | yay germany | 13:42 |
| kerio | neo900: the finest phone of the alps | 13:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we use german modem module (cinterion [== siemens]) | 13:43 |
| kerio | the finest modem module of the alps! | 13:44 |
| vi__ | a citreon??? | 13:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol | 13:44 |
| vi__ | That is a french modem. | 13:44 |
| vi__ | With dodgy electrics and crazy suspension. | 13:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | check your spelling, that's Citroen | 13:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 13:45 |
| vi__ | my smelling sucks. | 13:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your selling smacks? | 13:47 |
| vi__ | Yes, 2 for 1 euro. | 13:47 |
| vi__ | Alternatively try one of these gorillas, they are milder. | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | two bottles please! | 13:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's 500. You can also pay with credit card | 13:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with credit card? ok, makes 25 diners or 20 amex | 13:50 |
| vi__ | Oh excellant. | 13:50 |
| vi__ | 6549 8843 6652 9956 | 13:50 |
| vi__ | acc: 02458694 | 13:50 |
| vi__ | SC: 00-54-82 | 13:51 |
| vi__ | SEC: 386 | 13:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one | 13:51 |
| vi__ | Name: I. P. Freely | 13:51 |
| zamn900 | DocScrutinizer05, did you see what I suggested | 13:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please hurry up Sir! other customers waiting. You owe me another 24 amex cards | 13:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh sorry, 19 amex | 13:52 |
| zamn900 | I said just cookoo | 13:52 |
| zamn900 | cookoo watch | 13:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 13:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you might want to watch the relevant videos of OHSW | 13:54 |
| zamn900 | it's only for android and iOS... i'd say let's make it for maemo too | 13:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think that's GTA04B8 | 13:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bbfT-Qqw1M&noredirect=1 | 13:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExEgaIsfVeM&noredirect=1 | 13:55 |
| vi__ | DocScrutinizer05: Imagine I have a chain of switching regulators. The first (reg1) is at 90% efficiency. The second (reg2) is at 80% efficiency and the third (reg3) is at 70% efficiency. The regulators are in a chain. That is reg3 is powered from reg2 which in turn is powered from reg1. How do I calculate the efficiency of the whole chain? Could you suggest what I may read to better understand the overall efficiency of the system? | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | zamn900: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ExEgaIsfVeM#t=2226 | 13:59 |
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| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25201195 | 14:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | vi: | 14:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~0.9*0.8*0.7 | 14:02 |
| infobot | 0.504 | 14:02 |
| vi__ | That simple huh. | 14:02 |
| vi__ | There is specific proof German education is better than UK education. | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | generally such design is *strongly* deprecated though | 14:03 |
| jaska | yeah it sounds like heating elements :) | 14:03 |
| vi__ | What architecture is considered better? | 14:04 |
| jaska | and id guess the efficiency varies over load | 14:04 |
| vi__ | My example was very simplified. | 14:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only needed when stage one is 10kV->1kV, stage two 1kV->100V, stage3 100V->5V | 14:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while 5V->10kV is generally done with only one stage | 14:05 |
| vi__ | I need 12V>5V>3.3V>2.5V>1.8V>1.1V>0.9V | 14:06 |
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| vi__ | The system currently uses ~8-10W | 14:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then get switch converters that create 5,3.3,2.5,1.8,1.1,0.9 from 12 | 14:06 |
| vi__ | Space is of the utmost importance. | 14:07 |
| vi__ | Are you suggesting a converter for each voltage? | 14:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can use a mixed design with e.g. a LDO creating 1.8 from 2.5 | 14:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for low power needs LDO might be the better choice, and those you opperate at minimum voltage drop that's sufficient to make the LDO regulate decently | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but *switch* converters you never daisy chain | 14:09 |
| vi__ | mmm. | 14:10 |
| vi__ | I need ~230mA@1.8V | 14:10 |
| vi__ | ~(2.5-1.8)*0.23 | 14:10 |
| infobot | 0.161 | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~0.23*(3.3-1.8) | 14:10 |
| infobot | 0.345 | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Watt | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | loss | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for LDO | 14:11 |
| vi__ | in heat. | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at 3.3V in 1.8V out | 14:11 |
| vi__ | Sales always want you to invent some new magiic. | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tell sales to fsck themselves | 14:12 |
| vi__ | rofl | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no really, sounds like their fs is corrupted, fsck needed | 14:12 |
| vi__ | Why can't I daisy chain switching regulators? Is it due to output ripple? | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are several reasons, but one of them is the calculation as done above | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~0.8*0.7*0.6 | 14:13 |
| infobot | 0.336 | 14:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | *input* inrush and noise/ripple is another | 14:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | overall regulation instability issues a third | 14:15 |
| * vi__ credits DocScrutinizer05 beer account with 1 credit. | 14:15 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | then a (often) *very* relevant issue is power-up/down *sequencing* | 14:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | with parallel converters you can sequence then as you like and need. for serial ones it's trivial to see you can't | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a 12V,5V,3.3V device might need 5V first, then 3.3V, and only then 12V | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise really nasty things may happen during power-up/down | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you need to carefully evaluate the power-up/down sequence requirements of your device | 14:19 |
| vi__ | That is a very good point. | 14:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise from lockup to erasing HDD to escaping blue magic smoke everything can happen | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd say you check which powerrails to pick to make up for 90% of your power consumption. Those are candidates for dedicated switch converters. The rest can get done by LDO | 14:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | from any conventient available power source that's powered up already when you need it for input of your target voltage rail | 14:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for a typical PC that would be 12V, 5V, 3.3V | 14:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (maybe -12V too, since that needs tricks anyway, without a switch converter) | 14:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | any other voltages like 2.3V, 1.8V etc usually can be done by LDO fron either 5V or 3.3V | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whichever is better siuted | 14:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hi dos1 | 14:26 |
| Gear_ | can i get gpio happening with the nopp | 14:26 |
| Gear_ | n900 | 14:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, rephrase | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gpio *happening*? | 14:27 |
| Gear_ | i have seen some andoid phones hacked for raspi kind of things with gpio pins | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | last time I joined a happening is decades ago ;-) | 14:27 |
| Gear_ | what | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, you can access and control GPIO in N900, via sysfs | 14:28 |
| Gear_ | you know what i mean, please stop being pedantic | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please find your humour! | 14:28 |
| * LinuxCode pendantically goes to bed | 14:28 | |
| LinuxCode | nn ;-} | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | n8 | 14:29 |
| LinuxCode | DocScrutinizer05, thanks again for that link | 14:29 |
| Gear_ | where and what sort of pinots are there? | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yw | 14:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~schematics | 14:29 |
| infobot | hmm... schematics is http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic | 14:29 |
| Gear_ | maybe this phone is too rare actually. | 14:30 |
| Gear_ | i already have all the schematics | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe get a less rare one then? when you can wait a while, i may suggest Neo900 | 14:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | not exactly less rare, but at least fresh from the factory (in 6 months) | 14:31 |
| Gear_ | i saw the plans for that but i serriously think i'll be about 40 if it comes out | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wish I was 40 when it comes out ;-P | 14:32 |
| Gear_ | you seriously think it'll happen? there isn't even a prootype | 14:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BZZZZ false | 14:32 |
| Gear_ | it's in the early prototyping phase | 14:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are 300+ GTA04 out in the field, since >1 year | 14:33 |
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| Gear_ | you mean the one that eplaces the n900 guts | 14:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 14:34 |
| Gear_ | or just that huge thing they already made | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I mean GTA04 replaces GTA02 guts | 14:34 |
| Gear_ | i mean the neo900 | 14:34 |
| Gear_ | and so did you | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and we base Neo900 on GTA04, closely | 14:34 |
| Gear_ | but ther is no working neo900 proototype | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we already *have* ~300 prototypes | 14:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you seen what Nokia's prototypes look like? | 14:36 |
| Gear_ | those are totally different devices | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | our GTA04 is a beauty against that | 14:36 |
| Gear_ | ok a working neo900. ther isn't one. | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? | 14:36 |
| Gear_ | again, pedanticc | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we started 1 month ago | 14:36 |
| Gear_ | we? | 14:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again, you start annoying me | 14:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~joerg | 14:37 |
| infobot | hmm... joerg is a natural born EE, ex HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, now mainly involved in maintenance of maemo and N900. Usually known as DocScrutinizer | 14:37 |
| Gear_ | that's ok, i will be done taking a shhit asoon and go back to building my drum machines | 14:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do whatever you like | 14:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but i'm done with taking shit from you | 14:38 |
| Gear_ | ok. so you actually think there will be neo900ms for sale in 6 months. | 14:39 |
| Gear_ | . | 14:39 |
| Gear_ | damit | 14:39 |
| Gear_ | ? | 14:39 |
| Gear_ | how come there isn't a working example yet? 6 months sounds too short when tit doesn't actually even exist yet | 14:40 |
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| Gear_ | k. bye. | 14:43 |
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| Gear_ | I was on my n900 and couldn't see anything. DocScrutinizer05, don't get all butthurt because I have no idea who you are | 14:51 |
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| Gear_ | I don't come here. so I don't know. but I would like to ask you about the neo900 | 14:51 |
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| Gear_ | I know the gt04 is working but that's not the same as the neo900, it's like saying "we've got the wristwatch computer prototype working, it's based on the same thing but it's the size of a dinnerplate" | 14:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | no, the both designs are like 95% identical | 14:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just differnetly shaped | 14:55 |
| Gear_ | ok working example of neo900 | 14:55 |
| Gear_ | not the gt04 | 14:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which been the originating aspect of this project | 14:55 |
| Gear_ | also who is we? I ask these questions because I do not know | 14:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#who | 14:56 |
| Gear_ | and I wish to. | 14:56 |
| Gear_ | will it fit in the n900 case? | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/news-0005-phase-i-results-ohsw-showcase | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | called "mechanical evaluation" | 14:58 |
| Gear_ | because I have two, and I'm nearly about to break out the second one and retire the first | 14:59 |
| Gear_ | first one is nearly all busted up from being my main phone for the whole tiem I've had any type of smartphone | 14:59 |
| Gear_ | and I love it. | 14:59 |
| Gear_ | apart from that pxt app not working, and the OMweather has stopped working too :/ | 15:00 |
| Gear_ | in australia it shows the wrong day, has anyone reported this bug yet? | 15:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm using foreca and dunno about OMweather | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but yes, reports sum up about OMweather dead | 15:01 |
| Gear_ | ok | 15:03 |
| Gear_ | I'm installing foreca to see if that works | 15:03 |
| Gear_ | is 6 months realistic? | 15:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we hope so | 15:04 |
| Gear_ | is the fm transmitter and ir port kept? | 15:04 |
| Gear_ | those are two of the best functions | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as usual, it's just an estimation that might see bumps in the road | 15:04 |
| Gear_ | you hvae $25k to play with apparently | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/specs | 15:05 |
| Gear_ | that is very cool. | 15:06 |
| Gear_ | I'll have to wait about 3 years for a second hand one though. more than likely. | 15:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | they might be hard to find second hand | 15:07 |
| Gear_ | if I'm to keep out of debt and finish my other projects | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | those who buy one *really* want it | 15:07 |
| Gear_ | I Really want it but it's also a really high price | 15:07 |
| Gear_ | higher than the original n900 | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but alas we can't do much about the price, except hoping for more customers | 15:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the original N900 been sold in the 100k volumes, in first 4 weeks | 15:08 |
| Gear_ | they're tough to find now | 15:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with 100k batch, we could be cheaper than N900 | 15:08 |
| Gear_ | that would require 100k people wanting it ANDwith the money up front/in advance for it | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, since our kitty doesn't have the chips to do that | 15:09 |
| Gear_ | lots of people don't follow through with things. | 15:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or some billionaire who thinks it's a fun project to watch before he dies | 15:10 |
| Gear_ | my next few year plan relies on me staying debt free but completing several big goals | 15:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, I know that | 15:11 |
| Gear_ | this allows pretty spartan living, I might have to keep the n900 in service | 15:11 |
| Gear_ | a billionaire seeing the awesome potential in something is a bit like hoping for the lottery | 15:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're not hoping | 15:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're telling you the bitter truth: we can't change the price | 15:12 |
| Gear_ | people with that much money often have it because they're disgusting greedy people who have RUINED the lives of many to get it | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | by ordering | 15:12 |
| Gear_ | well I just told you I can't. | 15:12 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: from my ownexperience you don't really get traction until you have a working device | 15:12 |
| jaska | is there any estimate on the timetable so far | 15:12 |
| Gear_ | there is a paper device | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit | 15:13 |
| jaska | doesnt look paper-y to me | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 15:13 |
| Gear_ | a working neo900 | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | paper doesn't answer "OK" to "AT" | 15:13 |
| Gear_ | nobody has seen one yet | 15:13 |
| Gear_ | not that other device | 15:13 |
| jpinx | the youtube shows the concept but not a working device | 15:13 |
| Gear_ | it doesn't matter if it's LIKE the n900, it's not the neo900 | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Gear_: you're starting to annoy me again. I tld you we started one month ago! | 15:13 |
| Gear_ | it's like a project on protoyping board, it looks big and stupid and people don't get it unless they already know what you're building | 15:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this is a "kickstarter" project, NOT a product presentation of $BIG-CORP | 15:14 |
| Gear_ | ok. | 15:14 |
| Gear_ | "the only true successor to the n900" etc sort of suggests more | 15:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | UHUH | 15:15 |
| Gear_ | or at least leaves me hoping for more. and I own a couple of these things. | 15:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we're only responsible for what we write, not for what you think when reading it | 15:16 |
| Gear_ | I don't think I'm annoying you, you're geting annoyed anyway | 15:16 |
| Gear_ | jpinx is asking the same stuff, as would just about anyone interested in this | 15:17 |
| * jpinx isn't asking anything - just pointing out the experience from projects in the past | 15:17 | |
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| Gear_ | if there isn't goign to be a working example of one UNTIL the first batch of them has been paid for in advance and then made, it's kind of sounding like that console thing which took years and people were disappointed with | 15:18 |
| jpinx | I had to pay the whole costs of research and prototype building before I could demonstrate what I invented and could sell it to users | 15:18 |
| Gear_ | jpinx, yeah like anything on prototype board, it doesn't matter what it can do, poeple don't give a shit until it's packaged | 15:18 |
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| jpinx | Gear_: you missing the point | 15:19 |
| Gear_ | not really, I'm commenting on the packaging. doc said "there already is a prototype" but it's giant and chunky and not a neo900 | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your problem, we can't invent the time machine | 15:20 |
| jpinx | it does not have to be packaged and pretty - it just need to show the components that will be used all stuck together and actually working | 15:20 |
| Gear_ | if this whole thing relies on people paying in advance FOR the neo900 how is it going to be more than a very niche geek thing for existing n900 owners willing to fork out over a grand | 15:20 |
| Gear_ | isn't "there is no working example" kind of exactly what we're both saying | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and that's *exactly* what it is, KTNXBY | 15:21 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: if you have a clunky but working device - make a youtube of it | 15:21 |
| Gear_ | they did, with that paper model thing, it's incredibly clunky. it looks nothing like the n900 | 15:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jpinx: damn, we will do that as soon as we have that, we're not idiots | 15:22 |
| Gear_ | they have cutout paper shapes | 15:22 |
| Gear_ | that they put into the n900 | 15:22 |
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| jpinx | ok | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Gear_: stop spreading lies and WATCH THE DAMN PRESENTATION!!! | 15:22 |
| Gear_ | I did, you showed that gt04 | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BULSHIT! | 15:22 |
| Gear_ | then you showed cutout paper shapes being stuck into the n900 | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BULSHIT! | 15:23 |
| Gear_ | ok this is what I saw, which presentation are you talking about, and why are you so worked up about it | 15:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-12-04 13:57:21] <Gear_> will it fit in the n900 case? | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-12-04 13:58:03] <DocScrutinizer05> http://neo900.org/news-0005-phase-i-results-ohsw-showcase | 15:23 |
| Gear_ | there is no WAY some simple questions could get you this fucking worked up | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes there is, when they got answered and answers ignored by you | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | does that look like PAPEr to you? | 15:24 |
| Gear_ | and that does anything? | 15:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so STOP SPREADING DAMN LIES! | 15:25 |
| Gear_ | spreading lies? | 15:25 |
| Gear_ | I'm fucking asking questions in #maemo | 15:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and WATCH THE GODDAMN 60MIN PRESENTATION! | 15:25 |
| Gear_ | you're flipping the hell out | 15:25 |
| Gear_ | heh | 15:25 |
| Gear_ | what exactly are you doing with the $25k already given to you | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *SIGH* | 15:26 |
| Gear_ | there's no way I'm going to buy one now. why are you typing in caps? are you actually this furious that someone is asking questions | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://neo900.org/faq#money | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when there's no way you're buying one then SHUT UP! | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | torll! | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | troll even | 15:27 |
| Gear_ | I'm not anymore | 15:27 |
| Gear_ | now that I know you'r e | 15:27 |
| Gear_ | involved and this is your response to simple questions | 15:28 |
| andre__ | Telling people to shut up is just childish. | 15:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | RTFM is my answer to stupid questions | 15:28 |
| Gear_ | so is flipping the HELL out and typing in caps | 15:28 |
| Gear_ | you are basically screaming at a potential customer for asking where the the working example is | 15:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I can also announce a kickban for next lie spread by you | 15:29 |
| Gear_ | this is the text equivalent of screaming into my face. do you think I'm likely to invest now... | 15:29 |
| Gear_ | who the fuck is spreading lies | 15:29 |
| Gear_ | are you delusional | 15:29 |
| Gear_ | I am asking questions | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you ARe NO potential customer, you yourslf said exactly that 2 lines up | 15:29 |
| anYc | well, I said there are only paper shapes | 15:29 |
| anYc | s/I/you/ | 15:30 |
| infobot | anYc meant: well, you said there are only paper shapes | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you are a troll annoying me | 15:30 |
| Gear_ | I have only seen paper shapes | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while I got a device to develop instead of discussing with you about BS | 15:30 |
| Gear_ | I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything | 15:30 |
| Gear_ | ok, go and develop it | 15:30 |
| Gear_ | I cannot wait to see a working one | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I cannot wait you shut up | 15:31 |
| Gear_ | figuratively, just in case you think I'm spreading lies about my inability to wait | 15:31 |
| Gear_ | uh, either make me, or stop the textual equivalent of screaming in the face at the top of your lungs of people who are asking about this fucking project | 15:31 |
| Gear_ | it's almost as if there's something wrong with you. AND the project. | 15:32 |
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| jpinx | Gear_: either be constructive and help - or bugger off | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nm, handled that | 15:32 |
| jpinx | ok thanks | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pure self defense ;-) | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | heartrate 180 | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | back to more productive work | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 15:34 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 waves | 15:35 | |
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| * jpinx gently suggests to DocScrutinizer05 a really simple timeline on a single webpage giving progress reports | 15:42 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when clicking on "Phase1" at neo900.org you get that progress report, and we don't publish any timelines we don't know by ourselves yet | 15:43 |
| jpinx | more a timeline of "progress to date" -- not predictions | 15:43 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: reminds me of my boss at work | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's also latest copy of newsletter at bottom of neo900.org page | 15:43 |
| jon_y | gee I don't know about project timeline | 15:44 |
| jon_y | so I'm going to make one arbitrary one up on the spot | 15:44 |
| jpinx | DocScrutinizer05: seriously -- too many places to look | 15:44 |
| jon_y | since they *must* want a timeline | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh seriously, top and bottom of page are too many places to look at | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ? | 15:44 |
| jon_y | 3 days here, another few days there, some slack space for unforseen events etc | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | News | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Phase I results - OHSW showcase Dec 01, 2013 | 15:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | is that recent enough a status report? | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or do you need to know when I take my lunch break? | 15:46 |
| jpinx | seriously - neo900.org depends on scripts from all over the place | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, it uses scripts but we made sure it does NOT depend on them | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you find a feature that's really missing without scripts, please holler | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but maybe you want to discuss this with dos1 | 15:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he's responsible for the web appearance | 15:48 |
| anYc | maybe a "blog"/"news" link in the top row would be helpful | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, I see a link "news" theer | 15:48 |
| jpinx | dos1: is in here ? | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which scroll down the page to "News" | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see above | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OOPS, called media | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Right, that's not correct | 15:49 |
| jpinx | top of the page shows | 15:49 |
| jpinx | Neo900 About Features Donate Media | 15:49 |
| jpinx | FAQ Specs Contact Subscribe | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | should read "News", not "Media" | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: ^^^ please fix that | 15:50 |
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| anYc | also I think it would deserve the first place after "Neo900" but that might be subjective | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | people want to know WHAT is it before they read news they don't have context for | 15:52 |
| jpinx | ok - I don't want to get into webdesign, but it's really not easy to read on my n900 over gprs | 15:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, that's for sure a huge downside of this polished design | 15:54 |
| jpinx | the page is huge :( | 15:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's pretty heavy and depends on huge screen | 15:54 |
| * jpinx prefers KISS | 15:54 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which gives us tons of flames about stupid old ugly design from those who browse it on their desktop PC | 15:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (KISS) | 15:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | klick on "Donate!" and you see "KISS" ;-) | 15:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we know both ends and the comments we receive about it | 15:56 |
| jpinx | really -- the opening page of any website should be very small and contain links to the heavyweight and the kiss versions | 15:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really - you are welcome to provide improvements | 15:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | this website wasn't made from big money. It's made by somebody who is doing that in his spare time | 15:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I think it's beautiful for that | 15:58 |
| jpinx | trying toit might look good on a big screen, but it's really hard to use on my n900 | 15:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and TBH we're not interested in customers that need a pretty website to appreciate the product | 15:59 |
| jpinx | hmmm | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the website needs to transport the *idea* to 90% of visitors in a blink of the eye | 16:00 |
| jpinx | if the device is only available to people with a bigscreen PC - that would be sad | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jpinx: yes, we will ask for a printout of "sysinfo" | 16:00 |
| jpinx | the blink of an eye needs a very lightweight page | 16:01 |
| jpinx | anyway -- good luck with your project - I hope you manage it ok :) | 16:01 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 gets terribly bored about this afternoon on #maemo | 16:01 | |
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| jpinx | washing the dishes is always the most boring part of dinner :) | 16:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: PRETTY PLEASE take out the #maemo channel from the IRC web portal hotlink! | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>IRC - #neo900 on Freenode (look for DocScrutinizer and/or dos1)<<(http://neo900.org/contact) >>DocScrutinizer05, don't get all butthurt because I have no idea who you are<< ([2013-12-04 13:51:07] <Gear_>) | 16:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | luckily we seen max 5 of that category so far | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | amazingly low troll-count | 16:07 |
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| marmistrz | freemangordon: ping | 16:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Wychodzi | 16:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh, thought that meant "bye" | 16:32 |
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| teamo | anybody from CANADA? | 17:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | probably | 17:39 |
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| SAiF | ~ping | 17:41 |
| infobot | ~pong | 17:41 |
| SAiF | Doc, you are from, Romania? right? | 17:42 |
| kerio | he's german | 17:43 |
| SAiF | I dont know why I thought he was a romanian.. :) | 17:43 |
| SAiF | yeah some old memories.. | 17:44 |
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| ShadowJK | on my last n900 now :/ | 20:16 |
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| Gatta_Negra | ShadowJK, did you kill the others? | 20:21 |
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| ShadowJK | yes | 20:23 |
| ShadowJK | cellmo failure on previous 4 or 5 | 20:23 |
| ShadowJK | I've lost count | 20:23 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | 4 potential Neo900's then. | 20:32 |
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| ShadowJK | what | 20:34 |
| SAiF | haha.. | 20:36 |
| sixwheeledbeast | if only the mobo's are faulty the rest can be used for Neo900 | 20:38 |
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| lufu | cellmo? | 20:41 |
| lufu | (You murderer.) | 20:42 |
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| ShadowJK | oh :) | 21:25 |
| ShadowJK | lufu; cellular modem | 21:25 |
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| lufu | thx | 21:38 |
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