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vi__who is a secure email provider that will not read all my suff like google?12:03
Wizzupyou12:03 maybe12:04
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DocScrutinizer05they MUST NOT12:05
LinuxCodeevery government will read your email12:06
LinuxCodeif you want to know if they do want to, run your own email service12:07
LinuxCodealso, as you connect from the UK, RIPA will get you anyway12:08
LinuxCodetop tip , RIPA does not apply in Germany12:08
jaskaripa = avoid uk like the plague in general.12:08
LinuxCodebut then if you live here, they just raid your home and DEMAND the key12:09
LinuxCodeno win situation12:09
jon_yuse gnupg?12:09
LinuxCodeUS is no different either, you are in contempt of court, if you dont reveal12:09
LinuxCodejon_y, RIPA == give key or ggo direct to jail12:09
jon_ysend useless mundane mails as white noise filler12:09
LinuxCodedo not collect £200 , do not go over go12:10
jon_ysure they can have stuff from urandom passed through a arkov bot12:10
jaskaalso they will extradite their own citizens outside eu etc.12:10
LinuxCodewhat is worse, we are happy to do so12:10
LinuxCodeespecially to the US12:11
LinuxCodedid you ever hear the phone call between the FBI and the MET ?12:11
jon_yCOIN needs to be a basic school subject12:11
LinuxCodelike a bunch of good mates12:11
jon_yCOIN 101: how to twart spies12:11
LinuxCodeit should not be like that12:11
LinuxCodethey are foreign agents12:11
LinuxCodeI think we should repatriate anything extradition related12:12
LinuxCodeand never extradite anyone12:12
LinuxCodeconvict them here12:12
jon_yCounterIntelligence is fun, as long as you don't loose track of who is double/tripple/disloyal12:12
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jon_yLinuxCode: you're from the UK?12:13
LinuxCodebut I am lucky enough to speak German12:14
LinuxCodewhy ?12:14
jon_yso I heard rumors of English nationalism wanting out of the UK12:14
jon_ysomething weird like that12:14
LinuxCodenationalism ?!?!?12:14
jon_ynot sure if it was a joke12:14
LinuxCodehuh ?12:14
LinuxCodewhatever that means12:15
jon_ythey want their own special parliment12:15
LinuxCodewell they should have one12:15
andre__very unlikely.12:15
andre__You might mean Scottish instead12:15
jon_yno, English12:15
LinuxCodethe only home nation without one12:15
jon_ythe Scots too wanted their own12:15
andre__[citation needed]  :)12:15
LinuxCodelook at it as a regional parliament12:15
andre__not "wanted". They will have an election about that soon.12:15
LinuxCodejon_y, the scots have their own12:16
jaskaits all england to me anyway.12:16
LinuxCodethe independence referendum is a totally different story12:16
jon_yI'm really curious about what the local opinion is12:17
LinuxCodefor what ?12:17
jon_yabout Scottish independence12:17
jon_ynot being anywhere near the UK kind of makes it hard to find out12:17
LinuxCodejon_y, hard to figure out what people in Scotland will do12:18
LinuxCodealso, the referendum is a bit of a joke12:18
jon_yjaska: England is the Southern half of Britain, minus the south west, those are welsh12:18
LinuxCodeI have Scottish neighbours, will they be able to vote ?12:18
LinuxCodewho knows, they might end up being foreigners12:19
LinuxCodeto Scotland itself12:19
LinuxCodehow ironic that would be12:19
jon_yhmm, perhaps Scots in England don't care too much about it12:19
LinuxCodeohh they do12:19
LinuxCodemost of them want the status quo12:19
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* andre__ gets some popcorn and watches12:19
* jon_y too12:19
LinuxCodejpinx_, you are telling me my neighbours are lying to me12:20
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jpinxonly speaking for themselves12:20
LinuxCodeof course they speak for themselves12:20
LinuxCodewho else are they going to speak for12:20
jon_yjaska: are you in Scotland?12:20
jon_yI mean jpinx12:21
jpinx"most of them "  ???12:21
LinuxCodejpinx, it is irrelevant anyway12:21
LinuxCodethey dont get to vote12:21
LinuxCodenor does the rest of the UK12:22
jpinxnothing irrelevant about scotting idependence12:22
LinuxCodejpinx, did I say that ?12:22
jpinxnothing irrelevant about scottish independence12:22
* LinuxCode rolls eyes12:22
jpinxirrelevant is spellchecker :/12:22
* jpinx rolls them back12:22
jon_yif it does happen, I wonder if the naval bases will remain exclaves12:23
* jpinx wonders how long before someone screams OT :)12:23
vi__over 70% of the english want scotland to go independant.  Over 70% of the scots want independance.  However the scots would not do a thing that would make 70% of the english happy.12:23
LinuxCode[10:23] <jon_y> if it does happen, I wonder if the naval bases will remain exclaves12:23
jpinxvi__: you have a perfect understanding :D12:23
LinuxCodethey will move12:23
vi__I hope Scotland becomes independent.12:24
jon_yLinuxCode: kind of hard to move entire facilities12:24
vi__It is the only way to break the Westminister cartel.12:24
LinuxCodejon_y, it will happen12:24
jpinxthey'll become bases of the scottish navy :)12:24
LinuxCodevi__, and the Scottish Parliament will be any different ? LOOL12:24
jpinxwe'll be a nuclear nation in one step :)12:24
vi__The only downside is those douchbags in the SNP hanging around.12:24
LinuxCodeall politicians are a corrupt selfish bunch of bastards12:24
jon_yso does the British flag need to change?12:25
LinuxCodeespecially in the UK12:25
vi__Vote for an independant socialist scotland!12:25
jpinxLinuxCode: you want tomeet a few politicans from other countries ;)12:25
LinuxCodeI love it how the SNP promised everyone double the pension and free child care12:25
vi__Yeah, they are full of shit.12:25
jpinxthat's an insult to shit12:25
vi__£600 for everyone!  Free childcare!  Rain to be replaced with beer!12:26
LinuxCodemakes a mature adult discussion about the benefits and problems a real scenario12:26
jpinxat least it ws digested12:26
jon_ydoes the Queen's position stay intact?12:26
jaskathink theid retain the figurehead mascot12:26
LinuxCodejon_y, for 2 years yes12:26
vi__jon_y: that would defy the point.12:26
jpinxkeep Balmoral :)12:26
jaskahell, there are other countries where shes a mascot12:26
jon_yfor 2 years?12:26
LinuxCodethen the SNP head wants himself as president12:26
LinuxCodeI bet you12:26
vi__douchefag salmond.12:27
LinuxCodebecause that is what politicians do12:27
jon_yCanada, Australia and NZ still has the queen as mascot12:27
LinuxCodemascot ?!?!12:27
jaskathats what i meant :)12:27
vi__I cannot wait to see what wacky bullshit they come up with next.12:27
jaskawell, the royal family is usually a mascot family these days12:27
jon_ywell, Head of State in formal terms12:27
vi__Ban the internet!  Because peedos.12:27
jaskain most countries12:27
LinuxCodevi__, be kind of interesting to see what would happen12:27
LinuxCodebut then again I think it would probably be a mistake12:27
jpinxHadrians wall will be the new Scottish firewall12:28
LinuxCodeI keep thinking about ireland12:28
vi__It will suck ass for the first couple of years.12:28
jpinxto keep English bots out12:28
LinuxCodethe Celtic Tiger, that got darted down12:28
LinuxCodenot that the whole of the UK is doing so well12:28
vi__IF we can get some decent leaders and not these SNP cunts.12:28
jaskai wonder if they will continue the orwellistanian legacy of the uk if they split12:28
jon_ywhat off Northern Ireland? do they still want in?12:28
jpinxin to what ?12:29
jon_yin with UK12:29
LinuxCodeif we leave the EU we are a goner anyway12:29
jpinxNI is in UK12:29
vi__The festering crap parade that is the UK.12:29
jon_yor are they too clamoring for independence12:29
LinuxCodeI dread that day, I make 90% of my money from there12:29
vi__jon_y: that is what all the 'troubles' are about.12:29
jpinxjon_y: demonstrates a lack of understand of what the UK is ;)12:29
LinuxCodeprobably end up unemployed then12:30
jon_yyes, the troubles12:30
jon_yI thought it cooled down a bit after the IRA settled down12:30
jpinxLinuxCode: define "we"12:30
vi__You know they banned the TNG episode about irish space terrorists in the UK?12:30
LinuxCodewe == any part of the UK12:30
LinuxCodeif the Scots vote out, they will be out of the EU12:30
jpinxnot including scotland :)12:30
LinuxCodeno two ways around it12:30
jon_yso Scotland wants out, does NI want out too?12:31
jpinxwhy out of eu ?12:31
vi__If you are prepared to let greece in, scotchland will be gauranteed a place.12:31
jon_yout of UK12:31
jaskawell, it would have a downside, the price of my preferred alcohol would rise.12:31
LinuxCodejpinx, new countries need to apply12:31
jpinxjon_y: demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of UK12:31
jon_yjpinx: I want to know more12:31
LinuxCodejon_y, there is one referendum12:32
LinuxCodeScotland in out12:32
jpinxjon_y: google it ;)   too long a story for in here12:32
LinuxCodethen there is a UK referendum, if it makes it through the Lords12:32
LinuxCodeEU in out12:32
jon_yI wonder if separatism is the new in-thing now12:32
jpinxLinuxCode: we wit the irony of scotland out but negotiating contined membership of EU and England opting out :D12:33
LinuxCodejpinx, how ironic it would be12:33
LinuxCodeUK out, Scotland out by default12:33
LinuxCodeScotland reapplies, because that is the smart thing to do12:33
jon_ystill doesn't come close to the situation that is China and the UN12:33
jpinxI think it is not going to be difficult for Scotland to stay in EU12:34
LinuxCodeI wish the tabloid press would be forced to print truths, not fiction12:34
LinuxCodethat is what is wriong with this country12:34
LinuxCodepeople believe all the bullshit12:34
jpinxall press should be banned for telling lies12:34
jaskathe sun will rise from the west long before press starts printing the truth.12:34
LinuxCodebecause they cannot think for themselves12:34
jpinxthinking is not permitted12:34
LinuxCodejpinx, haha yeah, UK and thinking is def not permitted12:35
LinuxCodeespecially regarding anything which involves us being spied upon12:35
jpinxbeaurocracy rools KO12:35
LinuxCodeD-Notice ftw12:35
vi__It is what happens when you grind the education system into the dust.12:35
vi__Create a whole generation of waiters and hairdressers.12:35
LinuxCodevi__, that is another one of those LIES12:35
LinuxCodethe UK education system is not much different to Germanies12:35
LinuxCodeit is all bullshit12:35
HurrianLinuxCode: Are D-Notices really no-questions-allowed?12:36
LinuxCodePISA listing, is also bullshit12:36
vi__how much is university in Germany?12:36
LinuxCodevi__, ?12:36
jon_yPISA listing?12:36
LinuxCodeUnis in germany are cheaper12:36
jon_yare they like proscription lists?12:36
LinuxCodePISA, ratings of schools in the world12:36
jpinxgo to CHina12:36
jon_yoh ok, not related12:36
LinuxCodewhich basically is irrelevant12:36
LinuxCodebecause 99.9% of students never leave their country12:37
LinuxCodeso who are we competing with ?12:37
LinuxCodeand why ?12:37
vi__In china you can work a slave job in the big city and make enough to buy a home in your village.12:37
andre__LinuxCode: are you serious?12:37
LinuxCodeandre__, YES12:37
vi__In the UK buying a home is...expensive.12:37
andre__LinuxCode, because education is about slightly more than "leaving your country", maybe?12:38
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vi__We are forced to rent from a gerneration of fucks whose pensions I already pay.12:38
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andre__LinuxCode, maybe your national industry needs skillful people if you also export? "Welfare"?12:38
LinuxCodeandre__, the comparison is rubbish12:38
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vi__Pay while I know that the same benefits will not be available by the time I roll around for retirement.12:38
jon_yoh dear this argument again12:38
LinuxCodecomparing Germanies school system to Britain's is like comparing Apples to Pears12:38
andre__LinuxCode: sure it is. but your argumentation is too.12:39
jpinxuni education vastly over-rated -- I know plenty of degree holders who don't know where Myanmar is12:39
LinuxCodealthough, now there it has changed to a more UK based model12:39
LinuxCodeat least in NRW12:39
vi__jpinx: that is bollox.12:39
LinuxCodeandre__, I want skilled people that can fill positions here12:39
LinuxCodeany sane person wants that12:39
andre__LinuxCode, yeah. How is that related?12:39
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jon_yI know when I played as the UK in Vicky2, I managed to bankrupted the rest of EU just by trade surplus12:39
jon_yand it came back to bite me12:39
LinuxCoderelated to what ?12:39
jpinxvi__: not bollox - I was an employer for years12:39
vi__There is ALWAYS work for skilled, smart people.  Just because your 4 year study of the history of liberal arts could not get you a job.12:40
jon_ybecause there were no countries able to buy my goods12:40
andre__LinuxCode, to "99.9% of students never leave their country"12:40
jon_yand I cannot pay the welfare12:40
LinuxCodebecause they dont12:40
LinuxCodethe point is, you cannot compare education systems12:40
LinuxCodebecause it is pointless12:40
jpinxyou can compare graduates12:40
andre__you can compare knowledge levels.12:41
LinuxCodejpinx, even that we could argue, some degrees in the Uk are a joke12:41
jpinxgive me a chinese graduate anyday12:41
LinuxCodeand students dont get a good education  in UK unis12:41
LinuxCodeeven though we pay out of our arses12:41
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jpinxmost western unis courses are way to specialised now12:41
LinuxCodeandre__, ok, so what Business Studies knowledge do Abitur students have then ?12:41
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LinuxCodeLaw ? None!12:42
andre__LinuxCode, how short-sighted.12:42
vi__You get out of uni what you put in.12:42
LinuxCodeandre__, you cannot compare Germanies education system to the UKs12:42
andre__LinuxCode, you compare knowledge levels.12:42
LinuxCodeI ahve been through both systems12:42
jpinxwe're past comparing systems - lets compare knowledge of graduates12:42
andre__Your shouting does not make you more right, sorry.12:42
vi__It is an opportunity to take the next step, not a meal ticket.12:42
LinuxCodeandre__, ok so when people say we are doing worse with Maths ?12:42
LinuxCodethey are not comparing ?12:42
andre__I have no idea who "we" is.12:43
LinuxCodeandre__, where are you from ?12:43
andre__I never said there is no comparing. Not sure why you write that.12:43
andre__I said there is comparison of knowledge levels. You keep talking about comparison of school systems.12:43
LinuxCodeschool systems == education knowledge12:44
LinuxCodenvm the fact that germany has a 3 tier system12:44
jpinxno - education systems produce knowledge levels12:44
jpinxyou can not say one system is better than another because it depends on the culture of that sociaety12:44
LinuxCodeHauptschul students will not have the same "knowledge base" as Abitur students12:44
LinuxCodejpinx, and the school system and the subjects12:45
DocScrutinizer05what's up, channel needs a +q * or what?12:45
LinuxCodeand the time people spend at school12:45
* jpinx ducks12:45
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, I will shut up now12:45
jon_yDocScrutinizer05: hush, its nice to read thoughts12:45
LinuxCodepointless to discuss anyway12:45
jpinxLinuxCode: enjoyed :)12:45
LinuxCodemore topical, any of you have a sailfish phone ?12:46
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: thanks for the entertainment platform :D12:46
LinuxCodeand if so, do you like it12:47
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jon_yI'm from a former Uk colony, the education system here tried to hard to wipe off any notion of that time12:47
jon_ythe Brits? they're white and theu're evil, thats all you need to know12:47
LinuxCodejon_y, my black friends would be insulted12:47
LinuxCodebut we moved on !12:48
LinuxCodeSailfish, nobody ?12:48
LinuxCodeI was kind of hoping some of you would have one12:48
jon_yyeah well, this is what you get by letting uneducated ministers run the education ministry12:48
jpinxgot one guy who says his mate ahs a new sailfish device, but no reports yet12:48
jpinxI was hoping to hear more of it and report back here12:49
LinuxCodejpinx, k ta12:49
jon_yis Sailfish GNU/Linux?12:49
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jon_yemphasis on the GNU part12:50
LinuxCodethe guys could do a better job documenting it's technical features12:50
LinuxCodepackaging system. packages available12:50
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LinuxCodestuff like that12:50
andre__How does one patch KDE2 under FreeBSD?12:50
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DocScrutinizer05andre__: wut?12:50
jon_yI serious, I need to consider if sailfish is GNU12:50
andre__DocScrutinizer05, you missed some memes in the past. ;)12:50
jon_yor is it some HTML5 pretender12:51
* andre__ just trying to change topic to something even more offtopic12:51
ShadowJKthere's allegedly a working developer mode, but there's no flasher, so if you need a reflash you'll have to send it back12:51
LinuxCodejon_y, I dont think any phone could ever be12:51
LinuxCodeall the gsm crypto rubbish12:51
jon_yLinuxCode: can I run gcc/autotools/configure whatever on it?12:51
jon_ylike I do on the desktop12:51
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: yeah, a sad poor joke, isn't it12:51
LinuxCodeShadowJK, really ?!?!12:52
jon_ymaemo on the n900 can, which is why I consider it GNU enough12:52
DocScrutinizer05yes. really12:52
LinuxCodethat is terrible12:52
LinuxCodeI do not fancy that12:52
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jaskano flasher.. huh12:52
jon_yno flasher == no sale12:53
LinuxCodeguess I will wait for another attempt at some phone based on linux that is not android12:53
jaskawell, they were already excluded by the lack of a suitable input device.12:53
jon_yLinuxCode: most importantly, GNU enough12:53
jon_ydon't want a BSD userland where it is a pain to build existing software12:53
LinuxCodejon_y, well, as I said, if you want gsm, you are stuffed12:53
LinuxCodeeven though a5x is totally broken12:54
jon_yLinuxCode: I don't mind proprietary bits12:54
jon_ythe important part is that it is able to function well enough to GNU standards in the userland12:55
jon_yn900 is pretty alright even though the proprietary bits are there12:55
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LinuxCodejon_y, I have no idea what they are up to12:58
LinuxCodewhy I was asking here12:58
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DocScrutinizer05the question is not if I can make RMS happy, I don't care. The question is if I can use my knowledge, gather new *useful* knowledge, and do/achieve what I want12:59
LinuxCodeI hope one day, mobile hardware will just be a device like a pc mainboard12:59
DocScrutinizer05do I want to mess with GSM stack? HELL NO!12:59
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, heheh12:59
DocScrutinizer05look, i'm using HDD since err 30 years now. I *never* thought about messing with the firmware in there13:01
DocScrutinizer05as long as the damn thing works and speaks proper protocol at interface13:01
vi__You had an HDD in 1985?13:02
DocScrutinizer05I *used*13:02
vi__500K and big as a fridge?13:02
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DocScrutinizer05well, actually back then they already had 50MB and were only 25kg and size of two or 3 shoe boxes13:03
DocScrutinizer05except for the 10MB *swappable* dis stacks called "pot"13:04
DocScrutinizer05those were really units size of a huge fridge13:05
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jaskaspeaking of messing with hdd firmware.. someone booted a mmuless linux kernel on a hdd controller13:05
ShadowJKthere was a guy that made liux run on his HD's arm cpus13:05
jaskathat same13:05
DocScrutinizer05I know13:06
LinuxCodefar worse, somebody could putexploit code on there and hide it, then it reinfests your machine13:06
LinuxCodeeven though you reinstalled the machine13:06
LinuxCodeit would just keep coming back13:06
DocScrutinizer05yes, if somebody has access to your HDD to put it there13:06
LinuxCodeuntil you flash the HD firmware13:06
LinuxCodethey should put a write protect jumper on drives13:07
DocScrutinizer05actually a good idea13:07
grrOr in the mobile phone hidden inside qualcomm chip.13:07
DocScrutinizer05for modem however... you ever booted from your modem?13:08
DocScrutinizer05thus I don't give a xxx about the GSM "firmware"13:09
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, yeah13:09
LinuxCodejust an api to something be good13:09
LinuxCodethen we could all install our distribution of choice13:09
DocScrutinizer05it's way less concerning to me than for example the firmware on the uSD card embedded flash controller13:09
LinuxCodeand use it how we use our pcs13:09
ShadowJKgrr; or in the n900 modem :) (it's capable of running an entire symbian phone on its own)13:10
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LinuxCodeI iwsh they would scrap a5/1 and a5/3 for a pki based system13:11
DocScrutinizer05Neo900 will have a master off switch13:11
DocScrutinizer05for modem13:11
LinuxCodeNeo900 ?13:11
zamn900matrix new n900 version ofc13:11
zamn900dark glasses13:11
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, cheers for that!13:12
* LinuxCode bookmarks13:12
DocScrutinizer05bookmark DAT: neo900.org13:12
DocScrutinizer05and spread the word13:13
zamn900neo is the hero spread that13:13
DocScrutinizer05the fact you didn't hear of it yet shows the need to do so13:13
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DocScrutinizer05we're still short of 787 "preorders"13:13
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, I shamefully must admit, I have not kept track of much mobile-ish lately13:14
zamn900agent smith900 is still building it self?13:14
DocScrutinizer05grr: please bin that crap13:14
LinuxCodebut a mate of mine is looking to upgrade his N90013:14
LinuxCodeI will let him know13:14
DocScrutinizer05grr: it's ridiculous13:14
LinuxCodealso, I would slowly like to upgrade myself too13:14
zamn900smith900 is not ridicoulus13:15
DocScrutinizer05even a complete symbian running on N900's BB5 modem couldn't do any harm to your local data and linux system at large13:16
DocScrutinizer05not even just spy your data13:16
zamn900I wait for smith900 version13:17
DocScrutinizer05what it could do: same like a featurephone (with GPS) in your other pocket13:17
grrwhat about android phones?13:17
zamn900I suppose droid is more possible and compatible13:17
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, you should write a blog on mobile security stuff13:18
LinuxCodeyou have a wealth of information13:18
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LinuxCodewhich would be very beneficial to the greater community13:18
DocScrutinizer05so what? all MINE! ;-P13:18
jpinxdoc|home: I admit I haven't read the whole wiki, but can you tell me if the neo900 is going to be something I can screw into my old n900 case?13:19
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: ^^13:19
* jpinx is in the throes of choosing a new android replacement for the n90013:20
LinuxCodejpinx, MEH13:20
LinuxCodeI used my old P800 for 6 years13:21
LinuxCodeI will ruff it out with the N90013:21
LinuxCodeuntil something comes along13:21
jpinxI got a cheep'n'cheerful chinese android tablet to learn android.  Al I learnt was that I don't like it :(13:22
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jpinxDocScrutinizer05: thanks :)  At last an update and a home for my spare n900 :D13:30
DocScrutinizer05we need another 787 supporters who demonstrate they're willing to order a unit, by donating 100+EUR13:31
DocScrutinizer05we need those to make stuff cheaper and better13:32
DocScrutinizer05we already reached minimum to make sure we can *build* the thing13:32
DocScrutinizer05well, I'm redundant, it's all on the website, really13:33
DocScrutinizer05and still you can be part of the very exciting initial project phase where you can actually *change* things by your comments and suggestions13:36
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DocScrutinizer05your brilliant idea might make the difference13:37
anYcI'm still a bit wondering about how the additional 2mm in height will look like :/13:37
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anYc(I saw the pic in the FAQ)13:38
DocScrutinizer05at very least you'll understand why every single bit looks the way it does13:38
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: FairPhone ? www.fairphone.com13:38
DocScrutinizer05a hoax13:38
DocScrutinizer05it's also using "unfair2 chips, since there are no other ones13:38
DocScrutinizer05actually afaik they build a pretty uninspired and annoying featurephone design built from "toxic" chips and assembled in some european country like Neo900 into a 2green" case made of recycled plastic13:40
vi__rofl fairfone13:40
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DocScrutinizer05or sth like that13:41
DocScrutinizer05it's so boring I never bothered to watch the site a second time13:41
DocScrutinizer05sure, they don't assemble the PCB at foxcon_china, like apple does, but so do we: we build the Neo900 in Bavaria13:42
kerioyay germany13:42
kerioneo900: the finest phone of the alps13:43
DocScrutinizer05we use german modem module (cinterion [== siemens])13:43
keriothe finest modem module of the alps!13:44
vi__a citreon???13:44
vi__That is a french modem.13:44
vi__With dodgy electrics and crazy suspension.13:45
DocScrutinizer05check your spelling, that's Citroen13:45
vi__my smelling sucks.13:45
DocScrutinizer05your selling smacks?13:47
vi__Yes, 2 for 1 euro.13:47
vi__Alternatively try one of these gorillas, they are milder.13:47
DocScrutinizer05two bottles please!13:48
DocScrutinizer05that's 500. You can also pay with credit card13:49
DocScrutinizer05with credit card? ok, makes 25 diners or 20 amex13:50
vi__Oh excellant.13:50
vi__6549 8843 6652 995613:50
vi__acc: 0245869413:50
vi__SC: 00-54-8213:51
vi__SEC: 38613:51
vi__Name: I. P. Freely13:51
zamn900DocScrutinizer05, did you see what I suggested13:51
DocScrutinizer05please hurry up Sir! other customers waiting. You owe me another 24 amex cards13:52
DocScrutinizer05oh sorry, 19 amex13:52
zamn900I said just cookoo13:52
zamn900cookoo watch13:52
DocScrutinizer05you might want to watch the relevant videos of OHSW13:54
zamn900it's only for android and iOS... i'd say let's make it for maemo too13:54
DocScrutinizer05I think that's GTA04B813:54
vi__DocScrutinizer05: Imagine I have a chain of switching regulators.  The first (reg1) is at 90% efficiency.  The second (reg2) is at 80% efficiency and the third (reg3) is at 70% efficiency.  The regulators are in a chain.  That is reg3 is powered from reg2 which in turn is powered from reg1.  How do I calculate the efficiency of the whole chain?  Could you suggest what I may read to better understand the overall efficiency of the system?13:58
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vi__That simple huh.14:02
vi__There is specific proof German education is better than UK education.14:02
DocScrutinizer05generally such design is *strongly* deprecated though14:03
jaskayeah it sounds like heating elements :)14:03
vi__What architecture is considered better?14:04
jaskaand id guess the efficiency varies over load14:04
vi__My example was very simplified.14:04
DocScrutinizer05only needed when stage one is 10kV->1kV, stage two 1kV->100V, stage3 100V->5V14:04
DocScrutinizer05while 5V->10kV is generally done with only one stage14:05
vi__I need 12V>5V>3.3V>2.5V>1.8V>1.1V>0.9V14:06
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vi__The system currently uses ~8-10W14:06
DocScrutinizer05then get switch converters that create 5,3.3,2.5,1.8,1.1,0.9 from 1214:06
vi__Space is of the utmost importance.14:07
vi__Are you suggesting a converter for each voltage?14:07
DocScrutinizer05you can use a mixed design with e.g. a LDO creating 1.8 from 2.514:07
DocScrutinizer05for low power needs LDO might be the better choice, and those you opperate at minimum voltage drop that's sufficient to make the LDO regulate decently14:08
DocScrutinizer05but *switch* converters you never daisy chain14:09
vi__I need ~230mA@1.8V14:10
DocScrutinizer05for LDO14:11
vi__in heat.14:11
DocScrutinizer05at 3.3V in 1.8V out14:11
vi__Sales always want you to invent some new magiic.14:11
DocScrutinizer05tell sales to fsck themselves14:12
DocScrutinizer05no really, sounds like their fs is corrupted, fsck needed14:12
vi__Why can't I daisy chain switching regulators?  Is it due to output ripple?14:13
DocScrutinizer05there are several reasons, but one of them is the calculation as done above14:13
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DocScrutinizer05*input* inrush and noise/ripple is another14:14
DocScrutinizer05overall regulation instability issues a third14:15
* vi__ credits DocScrutinizer05 beer account with 1 credit.14:15
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DocScrutinizer05then a (often) *very* relevant issue is power-up/down *sequencing*14:16
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DocScrutinizer05with parallel converters you can sequence then as you like and need. for serial ones it's trivial to see you can't14:17
DocScrutinizer05a 12V,5V,3.3V device might need 5V first, then 3.3V, and only then 12V14:18
DocScrutinizer05otherwise really nasty things may happen during power-up/down14:18
DocScrutinizer05you need to carefully evaluate the power-up/down sequence requirements of your device14:19
vi__That is a very good point.14:20
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DocScrutinizer05otherwise from lockup to erasing HDD to escaping blue magic smoke everything can happen14:20
DocScrutinizer05I'd say you check which powerrails to pick to make up for 90% of your power consumption. Those are candidates for dedicated switch converters. The rest can get done by LDO14:23
DocScrutinizer05from any conventient available power source that's powered up already when you need it for input of your target voltage rail14:24
DocScrutinizer05for a typical PC that would be 12V, 5V, 3.3V14:25
DocScrutinizer05(maybe -12V too, since that needs tricks anyway, without a switch converter)14:25
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DocScrutinizer05any other voltages like 2.3V, 1.8V etc usually can be done by LDO fron either 5V or 3.3V14:26
DocScrutinizer05whichever is better siuted14:26
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DocScrutinizer05hi dos114:26
Gear_can i get gpio happening with the nopp14:26
DocScrutinizer05err, rephrase14:27
DocScrutinizer05gpio *happening*?14:27
Gear_i have seen some andoid phones hacked for raspi kind of things with gpio pins14:27
DocScrutinizer05last time I joined a happening is decades ago ;-)14:27
DocScrutinizer05yes, you can access and control GPIO in N900, via sysfs14:28
Gear_you know what i mean, please stop being pedantic14:28
DocScrutinizer05please find your humour!14:28
* LinuxCode pendantically goes to bed14:28
LinuxCodenn ;-}14:28
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, thanks again for that link14:29
Gear_where and what sort of pinots are there?14:29
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infobothmm... schematics is
Gear_maybe this phone is too rare actually.14:30
Gear_i already have all the schematics14:31
DocScrutinizer05maybe get a less rare one then? when you can wait a while, i may suggest Neo90014:31
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DocScrutinizer05not exactly less rare, but at least fresh from the factory (in 6 months)14:31
Gear_i saw the plans for that but i serriously  think i'll be about 40 if it comes out14:31
DocScrutinizer05I wish I was 40 when it comes out ;-P14:32
Gear_you seriously think it'll happen? there isn't even a prootype14:32
DocScrutinizer05BZZZZ false14:32
Gear_it's in the early prototyping phase14:32
DocScrutinizer05there are 300+ GTA04 out in the field, since >1 year14:33
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Gear_you mean the one that eplaces the n900 guts14:33
Gear_or just that huge thing they already made14:34
DocScrutinizer05I mean GTA04 replaces GTA02 guts14:34
Gear_i mean the neo90014:34
Gear_and so did you14:34
DocScrutinizer05and we base Neo900 on GTA04, closely14:34
Gear_but ther is no working neo900 proototype14:35
DocScrutinizer05so we already *have* ~300 prototypes14:35
DocScrutinizer05you seen what Nokia's prototypes look like?14:36
Gear_those are totally different devices14:36
DocScrutinizer05our GTA04 is a beauty against that14:36
Gear_ok a working neo900.  ther isn't one.14:36
DocScrutinizer05so what?14:36
Gear_again, pedanticc14:36
DocScrutinizer05we started 1 month ago14:36
DocScrutinizer05again, you start annoying me14:37
infobothmm... joerg is a natural born EE, ex HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, now mainly involved in maintenance of maemo and N900. Usually known as DocScrutinizer14:37
Gear_that's ok, i will be done taking a shhit asoon and go back to building my drum machines14:37
DocScrutinizer05do whatever you like14:38
DocScrutinizer05but i'm done with taking shit from you14:38
Gear_ok. so you actually think there will be neo900ms for sale in 6 months.14:39
Gear_how come there isn't a working example yet? 6 months sounds too short when tit doesn't actually even exist yet14:40
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Gear_k. bye.14:43
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Gear_I was on my n900 and couldn't see anything. DocScrutinizer05, don't get all butthurt because I have no idea who you are14:51
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Gear_I don't come here. so I don't know. but I would like to ask you about the neo90014:51
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Gear_I know the gt04 is working but that's not the same as the neo900, it's like saying "we've got the wristwatch computer prototype working, it's based on the same thing but it's the size of a dinnerplate"14:53
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DocScrutinizer05no, the both designs are like 95% identical14:54
DocScrutinizer05just differnetly shaped14:55
Gear_ok working example of neo90014:55
Gear_not the gt0414:55
DocScrutinizer05which been the originating aspect of this project14:55
Gear_also who is we? I ask these questions because I do not know14:56
Gear_and I wish to.14:56
Gear_will it fit in the n900 case?14:57
DocScrutinizer05called "mechanical evaluation"14:58
Gear_because I have two, and I'm nearly about to break out the second one and retire the first14:59
Gear_first one is nearly all busted up from being my main phone for the whole tiem I've had any type of smartphone14:59
Gear_and I love it.14:59
Gear_apart from that pxt app not working, and the OMweather has stopped working too :/15:00
Gear_in australia it shows the wrong day, has anyone reported this bug yet?15:00
DocScrutinizer05I'm using foreca and dunno about OMweather15:01
DocScrutinizer05but yes, reports sum up about OMweather dead15:01
Gear_I'm installing foreca to see if that works15:03
Gear_is 6 months realistic?15:03
DocScrutinizer05we hope so15:04
Gear_is the fm transmitter and ir port kept?15:04
Gear_those are two of the best functions15:04
DocScrutinizer05as usual, it's just an estimation that might see bumps in the road15:04
Gear_you hvae $25k to play with apparently15:04
Gear_that is very cool.15:06
Gear_I'll have to wait about 3 years for a second hand one though. more than likely.15:06
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DocScrutinizer05they might be hard to find second hand15:07
Gear_if I'm to keep out of debt and finish my other projects15:07
DocScrutinizer05those who buy one *really* want it15:07
Gear_I Really want it but it's also a really high price15:07
Gear_higher than the original n90015:07
DocScrutinizer05yes, but alas we can't do much about the price, except hoping for more customers15:08
DocScrutinizer05the original N900 been sold in the 100k volumes, in first 4 weeks15:08
Gear_they're tough to find now15:08
DocScrutinizer05with 100k batch, we could be cheaper than N90015:08
Gear_that would require 100k people wanting it ANDwith the money up front/in advance for it15:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, since our kitty doesn't have the chips to do that15:09
Gear_lots of people don't follow through with things.15:10
DocScrutinizer05or some billionaire who thinks it's a fun project to watch before he dies15:10
Gear_my next few year plan relies on me staying debt free but completing several big goals15:10
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I know that15:11
Gear_this allows pretty spartan living, I might have to keep the n900 in service15:11
Gear_a billionaire seeing the awesome potential in something is a bit like hoping for the lottery15:11
DocScrutinizer05we're not hoping15:11
DocScrutinizer05we're telling you the bitter truth: we can't change the price15:12
Gear_people with that much money often have it because they're disgusting greedy people who have RUINED the lives of many to get it15:12
DocScrutinizer05you can15:12
DocScrutinizer05by ordering15:12
Gear_well I just told you I can't.15:12
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: from my ownexperience you don't really get traction until you have a working device15:12
jaskais there any estimate on the timetable so far15:12
Gear_there is a paper device15:12
jaskadoesnt look paper-y to me15:13
Gear_a working neo90015:13
DocScrutinizer05paper doesn't answer "OK" to "AT"15:13
Gear_nobody has seen one yet15:13
Gear_not that other device15:13
jpinxthe youtube shows the concept but not a working device15:13
Gear_it doesn't matter if it's LIKE the n900, it's not the neo90015:13
DocScrutinizer05Gear_: you're starting to annoy me again. I tld you we started one month ago!15:13
Gear_it's like a project on protoyping board, it looks big and stupid and people don't get it unless they already know what you're building15:14
DocScrutinizer05this is a "kickstarter" project, NOT a product presentation of $BIG-CORP15:14
Gear_"the only true successor to the n900" etc sort of suggests more15:15
Gear_or at least leaves me hoping for more. and I own a couple of these things.15:15
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DocScrutinizer05we're only responsible for what we write, not for what you think when reading it15:16
Gear_I don't think I'm annoying you, you're geting annoyed anyway15:16
Gear_jpinx is asking the same stuff, as would just about anyone interested in this15:17
* jpinx isn't asking anything - just pointing out the experience from projects in the past15:17
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Gear_if there isn't goign to be a working example of one UNTIL the first batch of them has been paid for in advance and then made, it's kind of sounding like that console thing which took years and people were disappointed with15:18
jpinxI had to pay the whole costs of research and prototype building before I could demonstrate what I invented and could sell it to users15:18
Gear_jpinx, yeah like anything on prototype board, it doesn't matter what it can do, poeple don't give a shit until it's packaged15:18
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jpinxGear_: you missing the point15:19
Gear_not really, I'm commenting on the packaging. doc said "there already is a prototype" but it's giant and chunky and not a neo90015:19
DocScrutinizer05your problem, we can't invent the time machine15:20
jpinxit does not have to be packaged and pretty - it just need to show the components that will be used all stuck together and actually working15:20
Gear_if this whole thing relies on people paying in advance FOR the neo900 how is it going to be more than a very niche geek thing for existing n900 owners willing to fork out over a grand15:20
Gear_isn't "there is no working example" kind of exactly what we're both saying15:21
DocScrutinizer05and that's *exactly* what it is, KTNXBY15:21
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: if you have a clunky but working device - make a youtube of it15:21
Gear_they did, with that paper model thing, it's incredibly clunky. it looks nothing like the n90015:21
DocScrutinizer05jpinx: damn, we will do that as soon as we have that, we're not idiots15:22
Gear_they have cutout paper shapes15:22
Gear_that they put into the n90015:22
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DocScrutinizer05Gear_: stop spreading lies and WATCH THE DAMN PRESENTATION!!!15:22
Gear_I did, you showed that gt0415:22
Gear_then you showed cutout paper shapes being stuck into the n90015:22
Gear_ok this is what I saw, which presentation are you talking about, and why are you so worked up about it15:23
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DocScrutinizer05[2013-12-04 13:57:21] <Gear_> will it fit in the n900 case?15:23
DocScrutinizer05[2013-12-04 13:58:03] <DocScrutinizer05>
Gear_there is no WAY some simple questions could get you this fucking worked up15:23
DocScrutinizer05yes there is, when they got answered and answers ignored by you15:24
DocScrutinizer05does that look like PAPEr to you?15:24
Gear_and that does anything?15:25
DocScrutinizer05so STOP SPREADING DAMN LIES!15:25
Gear_spreading lies?15:25
Gear_I'm fucking asking questions in #maemo15:25
Gear_you're flipping the hell out15:25
Gear_what exactly are you doing with the $25k already given to you15:26
Gear_there's no way I'm going to buy one now. why are you typing in caps? are you actually this furious that someone is asking questions15:26
DocScrutinizer05when there's no way you're buying one then SHUT UP!15:27
DocScrutinizer05troll even15:27
Gear_I'm not anymore15:27
Gear_now that I know you'r e15:27
Gear_involved and this is your response to simple questions15:28
andre__Telling people to shut up is just childish.15:28
DocScrutinizer05RTFM is my answer to stupid questions15:28
Gear_so is flipping the HELL out and typing in caps15:28
Gear_you are basically screaming at a potential customer for asking where the the working example is15:28
DocScrutinizer05well, I can also announce a kickban for next lie spread by you15:29
Gear_this is the text equivalent of screaming into my face. do you think I'm likely to invest now...15:29
Gear_who the fuck is spreading lies15:29
Gear_are you delusional15:29
Gear_I am asking questions15:29
DocScrutinizer05you ARe NO potential customer, you yourslf said exactly that 2 lines up15:29
anYcwell, I said there are only paper shapes15:29
infobotanYc meant: well, you said there are only paper shapes15:30
DocScrutinizer05you are a troll annoying me15:30
Gear_I have only seen paper shapes15:30
DocScrutinizer05while I got a device to develop instead of discussing with you about BS15:30
Gear_I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything15:30
Gear_ok, go and develop it15:30
Gear_I cannot wait to see  a working one15:30
DocScrutinizer05I cannot wait you shut up15:31
Gear_figuratively, just in case you think I'm spreading lies about my inability to wait15:31
Gear_uh, either make me, or stop the textual equivalent of screaming in the face at the top of your lungs of people who are asking about this fucking project15:31
Gear_it's almost as if there's something wrong with you. AND the project.15:32
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jpinxGear_: either be constructive and help - or bugger off15:32
DocScrutinizer05nm, handled that15:32
jpinxok  thanks15:33
DocScrutinizer05pure self defense ;-)15:33
DocScrutinizer05heartrate 18015:34
DocScrutinizer05back to more productive work15:34
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* DocScrutinizer05 waves15:35
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* jpinx gently suggests to DocScrutinizer05 a really simple timeline on a single webpage giving progress reports15:42
DocScrutinizer05when clicking on "Phase1" at you get that progress report, and we don't publish any timelines we don't know by ourselves yet15:43
jpinxmore a timeline of "progress to date" --  not predictions15:43
jon_yDocScrutinizer05: reminds me of my boss at work15:43
DocScrutinizer05there's also latest copy of newsletter at bottom of page15:43
jon_ygee I don't know about project timeline15:44
jon_yso I'm going to make one arbitrary one up on the spot15:44
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: seriously --  too many places to look15:44
jon_ysince they *must* want a timeline15:44
DocScrutinizer05oh seriously, top and bottom of page are too many places to look at15:44
jon_y3 days here, another few days there, some slack space for unforseen events etc15:45
DocScrutinizer05Phase I results - OHSW showcase Dec 01, 201315:45
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DocScrutinizer05is that recent enough a status report?15:46
DocScrutinizer05or do you need to know when I take my lunch break?15:46
jpinxseriously - depends on scripts from all over the place15:46
DocScrutinizer05no, it uses scripts but we made sure it does NOT depend on them15:46
DocScrutinizer05if you find a feature that's really missing without scripts, please holler15:47
DocScrutinizer05but maybe you want to discuss this with dos115:47
DocScrutinizer05he's responsible for the web appearance15:48
anYcmaybe a "blog"/"news" link in the top row would be helpful15:48
DocScrutinizer05err, I see a link "news" theer15:48
jpinxdos1:  is in here ?15:48
DocScrutinizer05which scroll down the page to "News"15:48
DocScrutinizer05see above15:48
DocScrutinizer05OOPS, called media15:49
DocScrutinizer05Right, that's not correct15:49
jpinxtop of the page shows15:49
jpinxNeo900 About Features Donate Media15:49
jpinxFAQ Specs Contact Subscribe15:49
DocScrutinizer05should read "News", not "Media"15:49
DocScrutinizer05dos1: ^^^ please fix that15:50
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anYcalso I think it would deserve the first place after "Neo900" but that might be subjective15:51
DocScrutinizer05people want to know WHAT is it before they read news they don't have context for15:52
jpinxok - I don't want to get into webdesign, but it's really not easy to read on my n900 over gprs15:53
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's for sure a huge downside of this polished design15:54
jpinxthe page is huge :(15:54
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty heavy and depends on huge screen15:54
* jpinx prefers KISS15:54
DocScrutinizer05which gives us tons of flames about stupid old ugly design from those who browse it on their desktop PC15:55
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DocScrutinizer05klick on "Donate!" and you see "KISS" ;-)15:55
DocScrutinizer05so we know both ends and the comments we receive about it15:56
jpinxreally --  the opening page of any website should be very small and contain links to the heavyweight and the kiss versions15:56
DocScrutinizer05really - you are welcome to provide improvements15:57
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DocScrutinizer05this website wasn't made from big money. It's made by somebody who is doing that in his spare time15:57
DocScrutinizer05and I think it's beautiful for that15:58
jpinxtrying toit might look good on a big screen, but it's really hard to use on my n90015:58
DocScrutinizer05and TBH we're not interested in customers that need a pretty website to appreciate the product15:59
DocScrutinizer05the website needs to transport the *idea* to 90% of visitors in a blink of the eye16:00
jpinxif the device is only available to people with a bigscreen PC - that would be sad16:00
DocScrutinizer05jpinx: yes, we will ask for a printout of "sysinfo"16:00
jpinxthe blink of an eye needs a very lightweight page16:01
jpinxanyway --  good luck with your project - I hope you manage it ok :)16:01
* DocScrutinizer05 gets terribly bored about this afternoon on #maemo16:01
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jpinxwashing the dishes is always the most boring part of dinner :)16:02
DocScrutinizer05dos1: PRETTY PLEASE take out the #maemo channel from the IRC web portal hotlink!16:03
DocScrutinizer05>>IRC - #neo900 on Freenode (look for DocScrutinizer and/or dos1)<<(  >>DocScrutinizer05, don't get all butthurt because I have no idea who you are<< ([2013-12-04 13:51:07] <Gear_>)16:05
DocScrutinizer05luckily we seen max 5 of that category so far16:07
DocScrutinizer05amazingly low troll-count16:07
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marmistrzfreemangordon: ping16:18
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DocScrutinizer05oh, thought that meant "bye"16:32
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teamoanybody from CANADA?17:27
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SAiFDoc, you are from, Romania? right?17:42
keriohe's german17:43
SAiFI dont know why I thought he was a romanian.. :)17:43
SAiFyeah some old memories..17:44
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ShadowJKon my last n900 now :/20:16
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Gatta_NegraShadowJK, did you kill the others?20:21
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ShadowJKcellmo failure on previous 4 or 520:23
ShadowJKI've lost count20:23
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sixwheeledbeast4 potential Neo900's then.20:32
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sixwheeledbeastif only the mobo's are faulty the rest can be used for Neo90020:38
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lufu(You murderer.)20:42
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ShadowJKoh :)21:25
ShadowJKlufu; cellular modem21:25
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