IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2013-10-23

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Tekk_	will battery patch undo my previous overclock settings? and if so, will I be able to reset them and save my settings?	00:08
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Tekk_	I overclock to 900 without a problem, and the extra 100 mhz certainly helps with emulators	00:08
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sixwheeledbeast	patch!!!	00:33
sixwheeledbeast	~batterypatch	00:33
infobot	somebody said speedpatch was http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1012405#post1012405 >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch]	00:33
sixwheeledbeast	IMO this should be included in factoid http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1328060&postcount=3325	00:34
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sixwheeledbeast	thumb and swap on uSD solves the memory bottleneck for day-to-day usage IMO. Desktop charger is useful if battery is very low or another N900/5800 etc	00:39
sono	5hmm thumb. got to try that soon	00:40
sixwheeledbeast	~cssu	00:41
infobot	methinks cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU	00:41
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Malinux	where can I get N9 firmware? I need to reflash my N9 as I acidently made it uninstall a lot of packages :S	02:09
* Macer points at the topic		02:11
Macer	N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan	02:11
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Malinux	Macer: okey	02:11
Macer	Either way. It has been a fun ride and I wish everybody the best. You all really extened the Maemo platform much farther than anybody has ever anticipated I'm sure.	02:12
Macer	Maybe some day there will be new hardware that will have a Maemo platform on it again. It truly was a magnificent distro for a phonelike device.	02:14
Macer	and with that I bid thee farewell ;)	02:14
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SAiF	exactly what all things do the proximity sensor do on n900 other than screen lock/off function while calling?	06:24
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DocScrutinizer05	good question	06:36
DocScrutinizer05	but not a precise question, since it's not the sensor doing things, it's things using the sensor. Thus it's not that easy to tell which things are using the sensor since you can't tell from "looking at the sensor"	06:37
DocScrutinizer05	quite a number of apps use the proximity sensor for various purposes, starting at usecase where it's just an additional HID to trigger app-specific actions, by covering it with your finger, to stuff like detecting if device is in a pouch or bag or pocket	06:39
DocScrutinizer05	I dunno if in some apps e.g. speakers are muted when proxy detects possibly your ear next to the speaker	06:40
SAiF	not in apps by dedault?	06:43
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DocScrutinizer05	by default? what do you mean by default?	06:50
SAiF	means without any extra apps	06:51
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DocScrutinizer05	the dialer app is known to use the proximity sensor	06:51
DocScrutinizer05	the sensor itself is just that: a sensor. It can't DO anything	06:51
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SAiF	so only the dialer app uses proximity?	06:51
DocScrutinizer05	see my initial comment above	06:52
SAiF	as in witthout installing any extra app..	06:52
SAiF	so the thing is i want to disable it, I dont want the screen to be off while calling.	06:53
SAiF	is there any method to accomplish it	06:53
DocScrutinizer05	nobody has done such investigation yet - it's also vastly useless since no device out there has no additional apps installed	06:54
DocScrutinizer05	no, this can't work, since when the screen doesn't get locked, your ear will engage some buttons on the dialer GUI	06:55
SAiF	yeah I know, but still..	06:55
DocScrutinizer05	I also don't see the rationale behind such behavior modification of dialer	06:55
SAiF	okay.. my sensor is not sensitive.	06:56
DocScrutinizer05	thus I won't waste processor time of my wetware to come up with a possible solution	06:56
DocScrutinizer05	specify a valid usecase and maybe we can suggest a better solution	06:57
SAiF	and it sees as if it is covered by something in low light conditions	06:57
DocScrutinizer05	umm, you say your sensor is defect?	06:58
SAiF	yes, its not working as it should	06:58
DocScrutinizer05	check: `` watch --interval=1 cat /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state ´´	07:01
DocScrutinizer05	it should say "open" until you cover it with your finger where it immediately and without glitches shall change to "closed"	07:02
DocScrutinizer05	also check your general system status, with htop	07:04
SAiF	well, that command	07:05
DocScrutinizer05	proximity sensor (like other events) known to be late or get lost completely when CPU load is way too high	07:05
SAiF	its always closed.	07:06
DocScrutinizer05	that's bad	07:06
DocScrutinizer05	do you have a screen protector?	07:06
DocScrutinizer05	does it cover the prox sensor?	07:06
SAiF	already removed	07:06
DocScrutinizer05	there might be dust or other debris in the prox sensor aperture	07:07
DocScrutinizer05	or the hardware component (the chip) is defect	07:07
DocScrutinizer05	so your problem is: you never see screen during calls?	07:08
SAiF	i have to slide open to see whose calling	07:08
DocScrutinizer05	I see	07:08
DocScrutinizer05	annoying	07:09
SAiF	yes	07:09
DocScrutinizer05	obvious solution: fix prox	07:09
DocScrutinizer05	spare flex PCB are available for <10 bucks	07:09
DocScrutinizer05	for a stopgap you could try to deactivate the prox sensor all together	07:10
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SAiF	how?	07:10
DocScrutinizer05	you need to mess with gpio sysnodes to do that	07:10
DocScrutinizer05	or maybe a bindmount of a static real file over the /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state node could work as well	07:11
SAiF	oops	07:11
SAiF	anything that i can do?	07:12
DocScrutinizer05	sth along the line `` echo open >/prox; mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state ´´	07:12
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, seems to work, just tested it	07:14
DocScrutinizer05	do this, and then you can control the prox "sensor" state with `` echo open >/prox ´´ and `` echo closed >/prox ´´	07:16
SAiF	do i have to be root?	07:17
DocScrutinizer05	yes	07:17
DocScrutinizer05	prox sensor is owned by root, as is sysfs which you try to mess with (mount)	07:17
DocScrutinizer05	and even / is writable by root only, for the /prox file	07:18
SAiF	will you see any result in that command.	07:18
DocScrutinizer05	you can change this to your liking	07:18
DocScrutinizer05	no	07:19
SAiF	ok	07:19
DocScrutinizer05	not if it succeeds	07:19
DocScrutinizer05	you however see the difference whe you do `` cat /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state ´´	07:19
SAiF	well its now open	07:20
DocScrutinizer05	it now shall print exactly what you piped to /prox before, no matter if that's "open" or 2closed" or "foobar"	07:20
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SAiF	well, screen doenot go black when calling now.	07:22
DocScrutinizer05	since dialer is doing exactly same, you now should see dialer act like when sensor is "open"	07:22
DocScrutinizer05	(maybe you need to killall dialer, to make it drop any open filehandle that still would read from the original /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state)	07:22
DocScrutinizer05	hmm, nope, prolly not	07:23
SAiF	its working just like I wanted.	07:23
SAiF	will it revert back if rebooted?	07:24
DocScrutinizer05	yes	07:24
SAiF	hmmm..	07:24
DocScrutinizer05	you need to repeat the mount -o bind during boot	07:24
DocScrutinizer05	GOD Ilove this device!!	07:25
SAiF	where from you know all these things.	07:25
SAiF	you born like this?	07:25
DocScrutinizer05	decades of linux	07:25
DocScrutinizer05	basically yes ;-)	07:25
SAiF	thanks a lot doc, now I have to hard copy that commands,.. :)	07:26
DocScrutinizer05	yw	07:26
DocScrutinizer05	:-)	07:26
DocScrutinizer05	wait a minute, i'll help you some more	07:26
SAiF	how?	07:27
DocScrutinizer05	sed -i 's/exit 0/mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state\nexit 0' /etc/init.d/rcS	07:29
DocScrutinizer05	warning, no waranties included, it's untested	07:29
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DocScrutinizer05	damn sorry, bad "typo"	07:30
DocScrutinizer05	warning, no waranties included, it's untestederr nope	07:30
DocScrutinizer05	no tiypo	07:31
SAiF	what is that?	07:31
DocScrutinizer05	do a `` tail /etc/init.d/rcS ´´ after that, and check if the last two lines look like	07:31
DocScrutinizer05	mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state	07:32
DocScrutinizer05	exit 0	07:32
DocScrutinizer05	it's a command to edit the rcS sysinit file	07:32
DocScrutinizer05	do automatically do this mount command during boot	07:32
SAiF	shoul i start from sed -i?	07:32
DocScrutinizer05	sed -i 's/exit 0/mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state\nexit 0' /etc/init.d/rcS	07:33
DocScrutinizer05	as root	07:33
DocScrutinizer05	then	07:33
DocScrutinizer05	tail /etc/init.d/rcS	07:33
DocScrutinizer05	and check last 2 lines	07:33
DocScrutinizer05	dang!!!	07:34
DocScrutinizer05	sorry huge typo :-D	07:34
SAiF	???	07:34
DocScrutinizer05	sed -i 's@exit 0@mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state\nexit 0@' /etc/init.d/rcS	07:35
DocScrutinizer05	c&p this line to a root terminal on N900	07:36
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DocScrutinizer05	:-)	07:37
DocScrutinizer05	should do the trick. I hope you won't encounter a bootloop for completely obscure reasons	07:38
DocScrutinizer05	messing with rcS file is a tad "dangerous"	07:38
SAiF	bad option i substitution expression	07:38
DocScrutinizer05	o.O	07:38
DocScrutinizer05	wtf?	07:38
DocScrutinizer05	prolly busybox again	07:39
SAiF	sed: bad option in substition expression	07:40
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DocScrutinizer05	you didn't copy the `` sed -i 's@exit 0@mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state\nexit 0@' /etc/init.d/rcS ´´ cmdline	07:42
DocScrutinizer05	the first one I posted been incorrect and spits that error	07:42
DocScrutinizer05	use	07:42
DocScrutinizer05	sed -i 's@exit 0@mount -o bind /prox /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state\nexit 0@' /etc/init.d/rcS	07:42
DocScrutinizer05	I just tested it, it works	07:43
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DocScrutinizer05	don't run the command more than once! it won't print any "ok" when it succeeds	07:44
DocScrutinizer05	http://privatepaste.com/c8c39a90b1	07:46
DocScrutinizer05	I did a `` cd /etc/init.d ´´ before	07:47
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DocScrutinizer05	when using `` tail /etc/init.d/rcS ´´ then you don't need to worry about the cd	07:47
DocScrutinizer05	I nevertheless suggest you fix your hardware	07:49
DocScrutinizer05	probably the proximity sensor chip is dead. Not unheard of	07:49
SAiF0	it succeeded atlast	07:50
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DocScrutinizer05	:-)	07:50
DocScrutinizer05	http://www.ebay.com/bhp/nokia-n900-flex	07:51
DocScrutinizer05	get that ans swap	07:51
DocScrutinizer05	and*	07:51
DocScrutinizer05	you see the right one, you can tell from most offers using same picture	07:52
DocScrutinizer05	cheapest offer <5 bucks	07:52
SAiF0	I will be using like this for a couple of days. and then I will buy one.	07:52
SAiF0	it includes camera?	07:52
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DocScrutinizer05	yes	07:53
DocScrutinizer05	front cam	07:53
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DocScrutinizer05	a real bargain for 4.98USD	07:54
SAiF0	that one has a fake camera	07:54
DocScrutinizer05	ohh?	07:55
SAiF0	losing front cam for proximtiy... :)	07:55
SAiF0	\which one would you choose if you are given such a choice	07:55
DocScrutinizer05	how do you know it's fake?	07:55
SAiF0	its heading is BRAND NEW FAKE CAMERA FLAT FLEX CABLE RIBBON REPLACEMENT FOR NOKIA N900 c57A... the 4.98$ item	07:56
* DocScrutinizer05 glares at his 2 flex cable spares he got for 7bucks each		07:56
DocScrutinizer05	LOL	07:56
DocScrutinizer05	I got me 3 of those: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ribbon-Flex-Cable-with-Camera-for-Nokia-N900-/290704781415	07:57
DocScrutinizer05	not tested yet, but look fine	07:57
DocScrutinizer05	took like 6 weeks for shipping	07:58
DocScrutinizer05	and came with their antistatic bags packed separately ;-P	07:58
DocScrutinizer05	with the flex in antistatic bag they couldn't fold the bags to fit into the package - idiots	07:59
DocScrutinizer05	so they opened the bags, removed the cables, and placed the 3 folded bags into the polystyrene box, then bubble foil, then the 3 cables	08:00
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DocScrutinizer05	X-P	08:00
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* DocScrutinizer05 hopes SaiF hasn't completely messed up his rcS with lots of 'mount -o bind foobar' lines that could even throw error and possibly make boot go looping		08:33
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bindi	DocScrutinizer05: scraping knock detection, just gonna do the button thingie	09:10
DocScrutinizer05	:-)	09:10
bindi	DocScrutinizer05: I can react to the headset button being pressed with python right?	09:10
DocScrutinizer05	yep, should be possible	09:10
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DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=21182	09:14
bindi	cool	09:16
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bindi	DocScrutinizer05: 600 mW power er.... handling should be sufficient?	09:20
bindi	for the resistor in parallel with the button	09:20
DocScrutinizer05	sure	09:20
DocScrutinizer05	P=U^2/R	09:21
DocScrutinizer05	U=2V max	09:21
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bindi	yeah okay	09:21
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DocScrutinizer05	you got the circuit right now? switch in parallel to ~1k resistor from 3rd contact of plug to 4th contact (aka sleeve, ground)	09:25
bindi	nah, gonna do shopping later today	09:26
DocScrutinizer05	ok, same applies	09:26
bindi	you said 2k resistor earlier	09:26
bindi	:P	09:26
DocScrutinizer05	I honestly don't know how large the resistor should be	09:26
DocScrutinizer05	since usually that's a mic	09:26
DocScrutinizer05	wait, I'll try to probe it	09:26
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DocScrutinizer05	1..2K is ok	09:32
DocScrutinizer05	1.4 actually	09:32
bindi	okay	09:33
DocScrutinizer05	1k should do as well	09:33
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DocScrutinizer05	I'll try to calculate the correct value based on circuitry in N900	09:35
bindi	I can probably take a picture (without engaging the flash) and e-mail it as an attachment too?	09:37
DocScrutinizer05	hmm?	09:40
DocScrutinizer05	picture of whatß	09:40
DocScrutinizer05	?	09:40
bindi	uh, with the camera	09:41
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bindi	the person ringing the doorbell :D	09:42
DocScrutinizer05	btw one of the two schmidt-triggers is built around a 4.7k series resistor to mic, from 2.5V, and the trigger level is	09:42
DocScrutinizer05	~2.5 / (22 + 6.8) * 22	09:42
infobot	1.909722222222	09:42
DocScrutinizer05	volt	09:42
DocScrutinizer05	sure you can take a picture	09:43
DocScrutinizer05	or - rather simple, the resistor value for triggering that threshold is:	09:44
DocScrutinizer05	~22 / 6.8 * 4.7	09:44
infobot	15.205882352941	09:44
DocScrutinizer05	kR	09:44
DocScrutinizer05	that's prolly to detect AV-in connected	09:45
DocScrutinizer05	then there's a second schmidt-trigger that is	09:46
DocScrutinizer05	with a 220R series resistor for mic	09:47
DocScrutinizer05	form an unknown but probably 2V micbias voltage	09:47
DocScrutinizer05	(unknown since I'm too lazy to read the tlv320aic34 datasheet)	09:48
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DocScrutinizer05	the voltage level for that trigger is	09:48
DocScrutinizer05	~2.5 / (22 + 6.8) * 6.8	09:48
infobot	0.590277777778	09:48
DocScrutinizer05	given the 220R series this will be ~50R max, and that's probably the max ESR when switch closed	09:50
DocScrutinizer05	ooops, sorry, there's another 2k series in that one	09:50
DocScrutinizer05	so this is basically same as above, just inverted	09:52
DocScrutinizer05	~2.5 / (22 + 6.8) * 6.8	09:52
infobot	0.590277777778	09:52
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DocScrutinizer05	err yeah, and	09:53
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DocScrutinizer05	~500R series	09:55
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bindi	uh huh	09:58
* bindi is confused		09:58
bindi	am I still good to go with the 1k ohm resistor or? :D	09:58
DocScrutinizer05	prolly yes	10:00
DocScrutinizer05	http://www.gsma.com/newsroom/omtp-documents-1-0-omtp-local-connectivity-wired-analogue-audio-v1-0 says >LC-0070<:	10:00
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DocScrutinizer05	The electrical characteristics of the audio Terminal of the	10:01
DocScrutinizer05	Terminal SHALL operate within the values stated below:	10:01
DocScrutinizer05	Bias Current	10:01
DocScrutinizer05	Min 100 μA Max 500 μA	10:01
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DocScrutinizer05	(Voltage of 2.1V generated over microphone component with	10:01
DocScrutinizer05	serial pull up resistor value between 1.90 kΩ and 2.2 kΩ)	10:01
DocScrutinizer05	this is pretty weird spec	10:02
DocScrutinizer05	anyway it gives some hint on ESR of microphone	10:03
DocScrutinizer05	~2.1/0.0005	10:03
infobot	4200	10:03
DocScrutinizer05	minimum R	10:04
DocScrutinizer05	~2.1/0.0001	10:04
infobot	21000	10:04
DocScrutinizer05	max R	10:04
DocScrutinizer05	according to the OMTP specs for headsets	10:04
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DocScrutinizer05	I suggest you simply test it	10:05
sono	what are you guys fiddling with?	10:06
bindi	add 1k, 1.4k, 2k, 4k resistors to my shopping list?	10:06
bindi	sono: custom button triggering an action on the n900 via headset socket	10:06
sono	ah	10:07
DocScrutinizer05	use CA-75U cable. See what resistor it needs on yellow plug to make the device display headset connected indicator	10:07
DocScrutinizer05	seems you would be fine with a 5k	10:08
bindi	hm, that one comes with the n900? i have one somewhere	10:08
DocScrutinizer05	but I doubt that applies in real life	10:08
DocScrutinizer05	I'd bet a few bucks on 2k just working fine	10:08
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DocScrutinizer05	anyway, I just probed a 1400R on a nokia headset, with a good low-voltage digital multimeter	10:12
DocScrutinizer05	thus a voltage of significantly < 2V	10:13
DocScrutinizer05	due to the non-linear characteristics of semiconductors this effective series resistance coukd only get lower on higher voltage, i'd guess	10:14
DocScrutinizer05	in the end it's probably completely irrelevant if your resistor is 500R or 18kR	10:15
DocScrutinizer05	which makes sense since in real life the properties of arbitrary headset mics may vary significantly	10:16
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DocScrutinizer05	so as long as 0<< R <<infinite it's a headset	10:16
DocScrutinizer05	a closed switch plus cable and plug parasitic series resistance should still be <<100R, and a CA-75U connected to a CVBS-in is either >10k or ==50R	10:18
DocScrutinizer05	I'll check this in a minute	10:19
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DocScrutinizer05	dang! 75R, I could have known	10:21
DocScrutinizer05	this stuff is really puzzling and weird. The general situation as well as the N900 circuitry around it	10:22
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DocScrutinizer05	so your resistance between the two contacts when ring button pushed should be <<75R, and the resistance when button not pressen should be some kR	10:23
bindi	uh	10:24
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bindi	so that button with resistor in parallel isnt going to work or?	10:24
DocScrutinizer05	it will work, definitely	10:25
DocScrutinizer05	use a normal switch, a 2kR and when this isn't the right components then I owe you a beer	10:25
DocScrutinizer05	;-)	10:26
bindi	we'll see later today then :P	10:26
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bindi	how feasible would it be to record a video with 30s buffer and save 5 last seconds of the clip and e-mail it when the button is pressed?	10:31
bindi	in case person ringing gets to a blind spot or blocks the camera	10:32
DocScrutinizer05	btw on GPIO_182 aka McSPI2_CS1 aka pin OMAP3430:V3 you got the raw voltage from mic_in, labeled "ECI_AD" which suggests this might be either a serial-in for one-wire ECI (multibutton headsets) or even a A/D converter when you mux the V3 pin to another internal function block	10:32
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bindi	always record a video with max. 30s of footage that is	10:32
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DocScrutinizer05	should be feasible	10:33
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Apic	A wonderful fine Sweetmorn (UGT)!	11:41
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DocScrutinizer05	morning	12:15
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Apic	Hi	12:16
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sono	DocScrutinizer05: do we have complete schematics for the n900?	12:18
sono	i still have had too little time to really read up, excuse the easily googled questions	12:18
DocScrutinizer05	~schematics	12:18
infobot	it has been said that schematics is http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic	12:18
sono	woot	12:18
DocScrutinizer05	that pahe seems kinda garbled and outdated	12:20
DocScrutinizer05	you find them via google easily though	12:20
sono	nod	12:20
sono	fascinating.. schematics for my phone o.o	12:21
sono	i don't think i ever had that before	12:21
DocScrutinizer05	http://www.google.de/search?q=Nokia_N900_RX-51_Schematics.pdf	12:21
sono	yea. thanks.	12:22
DocScrutinizer05	yw	12:22
l4m3rx	To login in (wiki.)maemo.org i need account in garage.maremo.org, right?	12:22
* sono stares at mixed tabs and spaces in a .c file		12:22
DocScrutinizer05	err, it's "SSO", yeah	12:22
DocScrutinizer05	using tabs is pretty much deprecated in sourcecode	12:23
DocScrutinizer05	smart editors can convert tab into spaces, and vice versa	12:24
sono	are you talking to me?	12:24
DocScrutinizer05	and you should set the editor so it inserts 4 spces for each tab you type	12:24
sono	i was just expressing my hatered	12:24
sono	no need to lecture me on fucking tabs	12:24
sono	hatred*	12:24
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, sure	12:24
sono	in fact,	12:25
* sono fires up astyle and prepares the mass commit cannon		12:25
sono	fuck that noise =)	12:25
DocScrutinizer05	hehe	12:25
jaska	tabs are bad.. mixed is .. blyyarghg	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	tab space tab space space tab ;-P	12:29
jaska	yeah, i cry blood and run an indenter when i see that	12:29
sono	Unchanged /home/benjamin/src/XLU-Freescale/src/task.c	12:29
sono	"hmm..?"	12:30
sono	benjamin@ubuntu-dev:~/src/XLU-Freescale/src$ file task.c	12:30
sono	task.c: empty	12:30
* sono opens the window		12:30
* sono jumps		12:30
sono	DAT CODE	12:30
DocScrutinizer05	great task ! XP	12:30
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DocScrutinizer05	>>file task<< >task is empty<<	12:31
DocScrutinizer05	that's epic	12:31
sono	there is some epic shit in our repos	12:31
sono	void dosendparameter( std::ostream & ostr, int Parameter, char laenge, char schalter )	12:32
sono	{	12:32
sono	static char text[20];	12:32
sono	if ( schalter == true )	12:32
sono	{	12:32
sono	ostr.put( 0x1B ); //ESC = 0x1B	12:32
sono	ostr.put( 'Z' );	12:32
sono	ostr.put( 'O' );	12:32
sono	ostr.put( 'K' );	12:32
sono	}	12:32
sono	itoa( Parameter, text, 10 );//Wandeln in ASCII	12:32
sono	strrev( text );//Wenden	12:32
sono	if ( Parameter < 0 )	12:32
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05		12:32
sono	{	12:32
sono	for ( int x = strlen( text ) - 1;x < laenge - 1;x++ )text[x] = '0'; //Führende Nullen setzen	12:32
sono	if ( laenge > 1 )text[laenge-1] = '-';	12:32
sono	}	12:32
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sono	sorry, no idea what i was thinking	12:37
sono	i suppose i just had to share the pain	12:38
DocScrutinizer05	np, just don't do it again please	12:38
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sono	not like i don't know better	12:38
sono	(you have to admit that is probably among the most terrible code you ever saw, tho)	12:38
DocScrutinizer05	yes, indeed	12:39
sono	(that code is alive)	12:39
sono	just not my project (phew)	12:39
DocScrutinizer05	makes me want to have breakfast, so I can throw up a bit	12:39
jaska	... function names, variables in non-english?	12:39
sono	yea	12:39
sono	jaska: not just that. they're also completely nondescriptive even if you do speak the language	12:39
sono	"schalter" is just "toggle"	12:39
sono	or switch, if you wish.	12:40
DocScrutinizer05	that whole code is a single abomination	12:40
sono	there's hardly a line in that function that is not.	12:40
DocScrutinizer05	strrev( text ); LOLWUT?!!	12:40
sono	ahha yes.	12:40
DocScrutinizer05	and the missing spaces after ) of a condition	12:43
DocScrutinizer05	great style	12:43
jaska	but spaces everywhere else almost	12:45
jaska	albeit inconsistently	12:45
sono	the algorithm is the best part	12:45
sono	if you want to call it that	12:45
sono	i'm just glad i don't have to deal with that project =) the guy who does, tho... well he kinda deserves it i guess	12:46
sono	he must	12:46
DocScrutinizer05	devel must've been on crack	12:46
sono	otherwise it would be cruel, and unusual	12:46
sono	he's long left the company. i am told there were two guys	12:46
sono	both fresh out of a special vocational school (not uni!) where they learned to code from 50 year old teachers that learned to code from a textbook	12:47
sono	they had no mentoring, nothing	12:47
sono	in a way, it is surprising that the project does anything at all	12:47
jaska	that doesnt mean anything, nobody ever mentored me, i never even finished highschool.	12:47
jaska	<.<	12:47
sono	well yes	12:47
sono	same here	12:47
sono	still, ...	12:47
sono	you did not learn how to program in a vocational school	12:48
jaska	i did write some ugly code early on.	12:48
sono	they did.	12:48
sono	certainly	12:48
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DocScrutinizer05	you either learn coding by studying and understanding good code, or you never learn it	12:51
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DocScrutinizer05	highly recommended read: http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ (semi-OT)	13:16
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l4m3rx	intresting that they didn't FinFisher	13:38
l4m3rx	s/didn't/didn't turn to/	13:38
infobot	l4m3rx meant: intresting that they didn't turn to FinFisher	13:38
Pali	brolin_empey: now looking at kernel-power	13:39
Pali	brolin_empey: I have 4 patches: dm9601, asix, nokia-av and power_supply_sysfs	13:40
Pali	dm9601 and asix only adding new usb ids... this will not break/change anything existing (only adding support for new hw)	13:41
Pali	so somebody with that hw will need to check if work	13:41
Pali	for me that two patches are ok	13:41
Pali	next power_supply_sysfs patch which fixing dangling if statement	13:42
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Pali	and patch for nokia-av adding new (better) support for headset button. it reports headset button event immediately, but sometimes not correctly - so it report event as KEY_PROG1 (to not break any app which does not listen for that key)	13:43
Pali	only this last patch needs more testing, all others are ok	13:44
Pali	brolin_empey: I do not remember which patch is from you, so look at list ^^^ if there is that yours	13:44
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Pali	I will add info about testing new kernel packages to TMO kp52 thread	13:45
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brolin_empey	Pali: Thank you. The dm9601 and asix patches are mine; I made and submitted them because I need them in order to use some models of USB ↔ Ethernet adapters I have without having to use a hexadecimal editor with the binary .ko files to manually replace the numeric identifiers of a model of adapter I do not have with the numeric identifiers of a model of adapter I do have.	13:59
Pali	rigth, so you will test if that working with your HW	14:00
brolin_empey	Pali: Yes, I will test and report after installing the kp52.	14:03
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Pali	brolin_empey: now updating my phone to new version from git	14:06
Pali	after some tests (in next minutes) I will publish deb packages for testing	14:07
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Pali	new kp for testing is here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1381948#post1381948	14:22
Pali	brolin_empey ^^^^	14:22
Pali	freemangordon ^^^^	14:22
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jon_y	Pali: how much slack space does your uboot still have for the kernel?	14:29
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Pali	jon_y: max kernel size is 1832960	14:31
Pali	and max uboot size is 262144	14:31
Pali	(if you mean combined uboot+kernel image in n900 nand)	14:32
jon_y	ok	14:32
jon_y	also, I notice sometimes kp starts with console	14:32
jon_y	other times without	14:32
jon_y	not sure if I messed with the kernel by adding the console	14:33
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DocScrutinizer05	o.O what a gibberish!! a:3:{i:0;s:11:"programming";i:1;s:17:"test_et_bugreport";i:2;s:9:"ui_design";}	14:56
DocScrutinizer05	lools almost like dbus parameters	14:57
DocScrutinizer05	looks, even	14:57
DocScrutinizer05	however it's most probably PHP, or some weird stuff midgard invented	14:57
sono	o.o looks like an unholy union between awk and c64 basic	14:58
Apic	;-)	14:59
Apic	Ack.	14:59
DocScrutinizer05	that's my "interests" as in http://maemo.org/profile/view/joerg_rw/ , as seen in administrative interface	14:59
dos1	it looks like something php devs could come up with, yes, but i know a bit of php and never seen there any format like that	14:59
jaska	looks sorta like bittorrent dht protocol.. distantly	15:00
jaska	like, strings are s:length:"foobar"	15:00
sono	it could not be some sort of json?	15:02
sono	actually, yes.	15:02
dos1	that's for sure not a valid json	15:02
sono	i haven't done web stuff lately, but	15:02
sono	well, not valid..	15:02
sono	well, i have no idea..	15:02
dos1	and the only thing it shares with json are there three characters {}:	15:03
dos1	these*	15:03
dos1	some custom internal format i guess	15:04
DocScrutinizer05	so let's face it: it's MIDGARD ;-P	15:04
DocScrutinizer05	net.nehmer.account	15:05
DocScrutinizer05	hi dos1 :-)	15:05
dos1	hello!	15:06
DocScrutinizer05	back to proper PC?	15:06
dos1	yup	15:06
DocScrutinizer05	I think THE page needs some improvements that cpuld predate THE announcement ;-)	15:07
DocScrutinizer05	could*	15:07
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DocScrutinizer05	and to answer your question (7weeks?), see last post in	15:08
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142	15:08
inz	DocScrutinizer05, it is php	15:08
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, it IS?	15:08
inz	DocScrutinizer05, same format as php uses for storing session ata	15:08
DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	15:08
dos1	oh	15:08
inz	see http://php.net/manual/en/function.serialize.php	15:09
DocScrutinizer05	thabks for the pointer, luckily I don't need to learn about it, just ran into it on midgard, while checking progress of karma updating	15:09
sono	what, that is a serialization format?	15:10
sono	bloody hell	15:10
dos1	sono: that is php serialization format - adding "php" before it changes everything :D	15:10
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sono	i suppose so	15:10
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dos1	DocScrutinizer05: some list of short bullet points about what could be added/changed on the website would be helpful	15:11
sono	looks like they were trying to make something like json, misnamed it serialization, and then went ahead and just built something	15:11
dos1	sono: php learned how to deal with json in its standard library quite recently	15:12
DocScrutinizer05	dos1: I think we can set up a sneaky wiki page, in some dark corner	15:12
dos1	:nod:	15:12
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DocScrutinizer05	for now main concern is clear emphasis on distinction between the hw device and any OS that will not ship with it	15:13
dos1	DocScrutinizer05: btw. I've just recieved second gta02, so my concerns about distinction between daily and devel devices regarding gta02/gta04 aren't valid anymore :)	15:15
dos1	hmm, will adding "Shipped OS" row in comparition table be enough for now?	15:15
jaska	they were apeing bencode format i guess	15:15
DocScrutinizer05	I think we should mention that GolDeliCo is NOT developing the OS for the device. And while we gonna ship the device with errr one of the OS that Nikolaus mentioned, it's basically up to the user to find and install the OS of his choice. Then point to FPTF	15:17
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DocScrutinizer05	dos1: F5!	15:36
DocScrutinizer05	dos1: (then point to FPTF) It's very important that customers understand that the device doesn't ship with fremantle, but that there OTOH is a community project that already takes care about porting fremantle	15:39
DocScrutinizer05	and fremantle been ported before to other devices	15:40
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Tekk_	there any way to select twxt in the browser for copying? changing your keymap has the fun circular dependency	16:26
Tekk_	where to have the characters to edit your keymap you must first edit your keymap to have such characters :P	16:27
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wnd	Tekk_, I'm not sure if you're after this, buy if you swipe the stylus from left of the screen to right (that is, start from outside the screen, swipe to right), you should be presented a button. clicking that should allow you to select text, after which you can use the menu or keyboard shortcut to copy it to clipboard.	16:51
Tekk_	thanks, I'll look at that	16:52
DocScrutinizer05	~gestures	16:54
infobot	ftp://ftp.handhelds.org/pub/projects/xstroke/release-0.1/alphabet.ps	16:54
DocScrutinizer05	hmm, no	16:54
l4m3rx	https://wiki.maemo.org/N900_shortcuts_and_gestures	16:54
l4m3rx	:p	16:55
l4m3rx	btw DocScrutinizer05, maybe a stupid Q , but what do the both 'browserd' processes do? (I mean there's few of them.... 2 with few forks)	16:57
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l4m3rx	scratch that ....	16:59
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DocScrutinizer05	really?	17:52
DocScrutinizer05	browserd does a lot of jobs: conversations, iirc call history, whatnot else	17:53
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DocScrutinizer05	even ovi-map afaik	17:54
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l4m3rx	okay .. another Q.... witch is more linux kernel behavior relayed ... does chnice effect the swap IO?	17:58
l4m3rx	of a process	17:58
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DocScrutinizer05	chnice?	18:08
DocScrutinizer05	my manpages don't know chnice	18:09
brolin_empey	Pali: How do I install kp52 with the files from http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/kp52+git/ ?	18:09
Pali	install deb packages	18:09
brolin_empey	Pali: All 4 packages?	18:11
Pali	depends on what you need	18:11
DocScrutinizer05	l4m3rx: man ionice	18:12
brolin_empey	Pali: Can I install only the kernel-power-modules package?	18:13
Pali	if you want to flash kernel into nand you need kernel-power kernel-power-modules and kernel-power-flasher	18:14
Pali	if you want to boot it from uboot you need also kernel-power-bootimg	18:14
DocScrutinizer05	l4m3rx: though kernel isn't controlled by nice or ionice	18:14
Pali	kernel version is kp52+git	18:14
DocScrutinizer05	kswapd seems to run at "top prio"	18:15
Pali	and kernel zimage and modules version must match	18:15
DocScrutinizer05	s/also//	18:16
DocScrutinizer05	s/also/instead/	18:16
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DocScrutinizer05	you probably don't want to install kp to kernel partition, just to replace it with uBoot some minutes later	18:17
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DocScrutinizer05	so aiui for uboot, kernel-power-bootimg and kernel-power-modules should suffice	18:18
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DocScrutinizer05	pending confirmation by pali	18:19
Pali	no, kernel-power-flasher is needed too for dependences	18:19
Pali	uboot and kernel-power-flasher depends on fiasco-image-update-ask	18:19
DocScrutinizer05	maybe some unfortunate dependencies in installation procedure make kernel-power and *-flasher mandatory even with uBoot	18:20
Pali	and that package cause that you will be asked if you want to flash something into nand	18:20
* DocScrutinizer05 been too slow		18:20
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l4m3rx	l4m3rx my bad, i ment ionice , witch is like chnice but not for IO	18:21
l4m3rx	And the Q here is if you change the IO prio of a process , will that affect the swapping IO of him (the process)	18:22
DocScrutinizer05	chnice: unknown	18:22
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DocScrutinizer05	and answer as of above: afaik kswapd doesn't care about any ionice or other prio of the process "owning" the pages to swap	18:23
l4m3rx	so - no :/	18:23
DocScrutinizer05	kswapd is a kernel process and runs with kernel prio and scheduling	18:24
DocScrutinizer05	that's why system comes to a grinding halt when swap hell hits	18:24
DocScrutinizer05	all disclaimer: AFAIK	18:26
DocScrutinizer05	no expert here	18:26
DocScrutinizer05	ShadowJK might know details	18:26
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DocScrutinizer05	but when a process has lower prio then it stays in sleep longer before it gets scheduled (gets a time slot). But once it got a timeslot is has same prio as any other process that tries to run, and kernel tries to provide the resources to allow it running, incl any swapped out pages	18:28
DocScrutinizer05	actually I seem to recall that all processes ahve a real live prio and a niceness. The real live prio increases the longer the process stays in sleep	18:30
DocScrutinizer05	once the real prio of a process is high enough, it will get next timeslice, and it doesn't make sense to preempt it just because some pages need to get swapped to make it run	18:31
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DocScrutinizer05	maybe other lower prio processes can run while the process waits for pages swapping in, but once that io-wait finished, the process again is highest prio and again claims cpu	18:32
DocScrutinizer05	and kswapd will not swap out or abot swap in of pages that just been requested for swap in	18:33
DocScrutinizer05	that would lead to a total deadlock of whole system	18:33
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SAiF	DocScrutinizer05..	18:41
SAiF	after a couple of reboots, I noticed that something weird is going on, cpumem applet shows high cpu and memory usage,	18:44
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SAiF	and now it wont allow me to open anything, says "too many applications open, unable to open additional apps without closing some."	18:45
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DocScrutinizer05	eeeek	18:47
DocScrutinizer05	what the heck?	18:47
DocScrutinizer05	you should immediately restore original state of /etc/init.d/rcS	18:48
SAiF	i dont know whats wrong.. sometimes I am not able to even open up xterminal	18:49
SAiF	pls tell me how to restore.. original state.	18:49
DocScrutinizer05	you got mc installed?	18:49
SAiF	what?	18:50
DocScrutinizer05	or what#s your fav editor on xterm?	18:50
SAiF	currently nothing..	18:50
DocScrutinizer05	well, then type following line into xterm	18:50
SAiF	wait, icant open xterm now. its showing the same error as above	18:51
DocScrutinizer05	sed -i 's@./prox.@@' /etc/init.d/rcS	18:51
SAiF	well the phone menu works, thats all.	18:52
DocScrutinizer05	reboot and immediately open xterm	18:52
SAiF	pls wait	18:52
SAiF	rebooting	18:52
DocScrutinizer05	you also might try to umount /prox	18:52
DocScrutinizer05	both needs to get done as root	18:53
DocScrutinizer05	maybe this hack I suggested has unexpected side effects	18:54
SAiF	okay.. in xterm now	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	s/maybe/obviously/.	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	sudo gainroot	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	umount /prox	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	sed -i 's@./prox.@@' /etc/init.d/rcS	18:55
DocScrutinizer05	after those three lines your system should stop acting up	18:56
DocScrutinizer05	check system status with command	18:56
DocScrutinizer05	top	18:56
DocScrutinizer05	then	18:56
SAiF	cannot umount , device or resource busy	18:57
DocScrutinizer05	watch for a lot of similar processes, tell me what they look like	18:57
DocScrutinizer05	continue with sed command	18:57
DocScrutinizer05	then check output of	18:58
DocScrutinizer05	tail -n 4 /etc/init.d/rcS	18:58
DocScrutinizer05	it shouldn't have any " mount " lines anymore	18:59
DocScrutinizer05	if that's ok, reboot again	18:59
DocScrutinizer05	but before you reboot, please check output of top command	19:00
SAiF	no mount lines.. just exit 0	19:00
DocScrutinizer05	excellent	19:00
DocScrutinizer05	top	19:00
DocScrutinizer05	(to stop top, you press "q")	19:00
DocScrutinizer05	you probably see a lot of similar looking processes in top	19:01
SAiF	1, cpu 72.4 --force syslog	19:01
SAiF	2, cpu 23.8 hald-addon gpio	19:01
DocScrutinizer05	looks weird	19:01
SAiF	these two are the top cpu usage ones	19:02
DocScrutinizer05	there must be a command name before "--force syslog"	19:02
SAiF	yes /sbin/mce --force-syslog	19:03
DocScrutinizer05	and I'm interested in a lot of similar looking processes	19:03
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, mce blowing chunks	19:03
DocScrutinizer05	damn	19:03
SAiF	there is no other /sbin/mce others are /usr/bin with less than 10% cpu usage	19:04
DocScrutinizer05	for unknown reasons hald-addon-gpio doesn't like the bindmount on prox sensor	19:04
SAiF	exept top and hald-addon-gpio	19:04
DocScrutinizer05	cpu usage is irrelevant, you said the error message been "too many apps started" or sth like that	19:04
SAiF	yes.. and some times. it said some thing like (cannot continue due to low memory)	19:05
DocScrutinizer05	which means there seems to be too many concurrent processes, which are like 999 or sth, on maemo	19:05
DocScrutinizer05	low memory is another issue, but that is also not related directly to cpu usage	19:06
DocScrutinizer05	you can sort by memory usage in top	19:06
DocScrutinizer05	press "F"	19:06
DocScrutinizer05	press "n"	19:06
DocScrutinizer05	press enter	19:07
DocScrutinizer05	what does top say under "Tasks: 152 total," what's is your number?	19:08
DocScrutinizer05	(top second row)	19:08
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SAiF	its sortecant find	19:09
SAiF	cant find	19:09
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DocScrutinizer05	sorry?	19:09
SAiF	there is no where saying tasks : xx total	19:10
SAiF	wait press f, n enter ???	19:10
DocScrutinizer05	top, the 2nd row from top	19:10
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l4m3rx	2nd row is load avreage: 1.00 1.00 1.00 2/210 2510 ? (or smthng like that?)	19:11
DocScrutinizer05	F, not f	19:11
SAiF	oops	19:11
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DocScrutinizer05	http://privatepaste.com/d612e0a3a3	19:12
SAiF	well, there is only mem and cpu above the list..	19:13
SAiF	what am i doing wrong	19:13
SAiF	sorting doesnt really work	19:13
DocScrutinizer05	too large font?	19:13
DocScrutinizer05	use volume rocker to get smaller font	19:14
SAiF	nope, not the font. its not there	19:15
DocScrutinizer05	weird	19:15
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, I can't help much	19:15
SAiF	hmm..	19:16
DocScrutinizer05	and btw with f, n, enter you probably disabled display of MEM% col	19:16
DocScrutinizer05	doing same again will re-enable it	19:17
SAiF	no, memory % colum is still there..	19:17
SAiF	it sorts by cpu%	19:17
DocScrutinizer05	you can change this to %MEM by pressing F,n, enter	19:18
SAiF	it was never sorted by mem usage,	19:19
DocScrutinizer05	pressing F should show a list of fields, with chars to select ome of them	19:20
DocScrutinizer05	one*	19:20
SAiF	F n enter sorts cpu usage in descenting order	19:20
DocScrutinizer05	have you looked at the screen after pressing F ?	19:20
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DocScrutinizer05	http://privatepaste.com/c0b11788a8	19:21
SAiF	nope nope nothing like that...	19:21
DocScrutinizer05	no idea what's going on with your shell or top	19:23
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DocScrutinizer05	does it even update at all?	19:23
SAiF	??	19:23
DocScrutinizer05	I.E. does the values change?	19:24
SAiF	yes when i press F screen just refreshes	19:24
DocScrutinizer05	o.O	19:24
DocScrutinizer05	press Q, reboot	19:25
DocScrutinizer05	I'm out of ideas	19:25
SAiF	rebooting.	19:25
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DocScrutinizer05	sorry	19:26
SAiF	still top doesnt respond to F	19:27
SAiF	but..	19:27
SAiF	cpu 7.2% mem 60kk free	19:28
DocScrutinizer05	OHDAMN! busybox top	19:28
DocScrutinizer05	~lart busybox	19:28
* infobot hits busybox with an anvil and laughs with a contralto voice ... Haha Ha HA Ha		19:28
SAiF	wait.. it just raised.. and now falled down	19:28
SAiF	cpu%	19:29
SAiF	raised again.. trackerd..?	19:29
DocScrutinizer05	whatever, irrelevant range	19:29
SAiF	no sbin/mce in top 50 haha	19:30
DocScrutinizer05	might be tracker indeed	19:30
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, I gave a poor advice. It obviously isn't helpful	19:30
DocScrutinizer05	seems hald-addon-gpio blows chunks with that bindmount on proximity/state	19:31
SAiF	well i found sbin/mce in somewhere 5th or 6th position from top	19:32
SAiF	but total cpu% is 7%	19:32
DocScrutinizer05	don't worry, everything back to normal	19:32
DocScrutinizer05	incl dialer misbehaviour	19:32
SAiF	sbin/mce gone now	19:32
DocScrutinizer05	to properly clean up you may delete that file	19:33
DocScrutinizer05	rm /prox	19:33
SAiF	sorry but where was prox located? I am dumb	19:34
SAiF	sorry to ask	19:35
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SAiF	dumb again	19:35
DocScrutinizer05	rm /prox	19:35
SAiF	^^ got it	19:35
SAiF	so i suppose if i use it without the automatic configure at startup, it would be fine..? right?	19:36
SAiF	thanks a lot doc.. you saved a reflash.	19:37
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DocScrutinizer05	I'm really wondering what happens when you do the `` mount -o bind ´´ late after boot	19:41
DocScrutinizer05	either it acts upp exactly like it did now, or it will magically work since maemo-dialer and hald-addon-gpio are weird and inconsistent design	19:42
DocScrutinizer05	SAiF: I almost caused a reflash	19:42
DocScrutinizer05	:-/	19:42
SAiF	:)	19:42
SAiF	you saved a couple earlier..	19:42
SAiF	so i still owe you a couple of reflashes . :-)	19:43
DocScrutinizer05	you're free to experiment further with the original interactive cmdline I gave you. It will revert to normal anyway, as soon as you reboot device	19:44
DocScrutinizer05	echo open >/prox; mount -o bind /prox /sys/...blablabla	19:45
sono	dunno what top you got (htop?) but top has not #tasks	19:45
SAiF	^^ doc	19:47
DocScrutinizer05	my top is the REAL top, not any messybox crap	19:47
sono	=#	19:47
sono	gtop then	19:47
sono	on normal maemo	19:47
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sono	if installed	19:47
DocScrutinizer05	well, if you wanna call it that way, it will obey ;-)	19:48
DocScrutinizer05	IroN900:/etc/init.d# ls -l `which top`	19:49
DocScrutinizer05	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 80976 2009-11-16 16:02 /usr/bin/top	19:49
DocScrutinizer05	IroN900:/etc/init.d# top --version	19:49
DocScrutinizer05	top: procps version 3.2.7	19:49
sono	so i gather you have coreutils without the silly prefix	19:49
DocScrutinizer05	procps, which nukes my mp-community-pr	19:50
sono	ok	19:50
sono	... so much work so little time	19:50
DocScrutinizer05	I recommend htop	19:50
sono	at least you guys all went the way before	19:50
* sono is on the bus enjoying his phone =)		19:51
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SAiF	bye good night (UGT), time to go home.	20:01
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer05; kswapd swaps out, apps mostly swap in themselves	20:18
DocScrutinizer05	ooh	20:18
DocScrutinizer05	how's an app going to swap in autonomously?	20:19
DocScrutinizer05	how's the app going to know where to in swap the swapped-out pages got moved?	20:20
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ShadowJK	"themselves" in quotes perhaps. Page fault happens when app's memory is missing, kernel schedules swapin	20:20
DocScrutinizer05	yes	20:20
DocScrutinizer05	I thought that's what kswapd is doing	20:20
DocScrutinizer05	page fault, exception, kernel, scheduling a swap task in kswapd queue ?	20:21
DocScrutinizer05	dunno, never looked into that	20:22
ShadowJK	From kernel's point of view, the swapin is accounted as done by app, and all swapouts accounted as done by kswapd	20:22
DocScrutinizer05	mhm	20:22
DocScrutinizer05	interesting	20:22
DocScrutinizer05	so the swap-in is basically scheduled as a normal (mmap) IO?	20:23
ShadowJK	iirc	20:23
DocScrutinizer05	in app context	20:23
DocScrutinizer05	makes sense	20:23
DocScrutinizer05	so swap-in is also susceptible to ionice?	20:24
ShadowJK	there's little distinction made in a high level sense between disk cache, executable code, libraries and "anonymous memory"	20:24
ShadowJK	No idea, but in practice it's hard to make ionice work for mapped stuff, I think..	20:24
DocScrutinizer05	interesting. Thanks for sharing	20:25
ShadowJK	Also, the tweaks prioritizing executable/library memory over disk cache was added later than 2.6.28, iirc	20:25
ShadowJK	In any case, swapout hurts us significantly more than swapin	20:25
DocScrutinizer05	that's for sure	20:28
DocScrutinizer05	since damn swap-out is a write to a media that's exceptionally slow on write, compared to read	20:28
ShadowJK	yep	20:29
ShadowJK	in my experience, lowering page-cluster after things start swapping heavily helps	20:29
ShadowJK	As it'll preread in 16k or something instead of full 128k	20:30
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RST38h	ShadowJK: Given that flash pages are 128k, how is it going to help?	20:32
RST38h	One way or another it will still have to switch a full page in	20:32
ShadowJK	Not entirely	20:35
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ShadowJK	erase units are bigger than 128k, but you can read them in pages of 4k on the emmc, and the latency hit in switching to another "128k" on read is insignificant enough	20:36
ShadowJK	While a whole "128k" has to be erased for writing, once erased you can also write it 4k at a time :-)	20:39
ShadowJK	But the emmc's ability to keep track of partially written things is extremely limiteed.	20:39
ShadowJK	Most kingston stuff, for example, can keep track of 1. :-)	20:40
ShadowJK	So as soon as you venture outside your current 128k block, the next time you come back it's full erase-modify-write again.	20:40
ShadowJK	Better stuff is able to track 8-12 open erase blocks	20:41
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DocScrutinizer05	well, I suppose it will clean out pages whenever it can, but pretty soon there's no "empty" pages left over. As long as there's an empty page the controlled can read-modfy-write_elswhere without prior page erase	20:43
DocScrutinizer05	and in fact it's the erase that takes ages, while writing to a erased page is comparably fast	20:44
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DocScrutinizer05	thus an optimized API would allow to mark blocks as empty	20:45
DocScrutinizer05	some controllers try to deduce this from interpreting the fs, by looking at the FAT	20:46
DocScrutinizer05	thus they could erase unused pages async	20:46
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dos1	trim?	20:49
DocScrutinizer05	anyway if I had to design the controller, I'd use virging pages to do a readA-modify-writeB-eraseA cycle, instead of a readA-modify-eraseA-writeA	20:49
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, trim goes this direction	20:50
DocScrutinizer05	anyway a mkfs tends to spam the whole device with inodes, so no virgin pages left over	20:51
DocScrutinizer05	except maybe for the hidden spare pages if the card has any	20:52
DocScrutinizer05	you could test that with two virgin cards, creating a 100% partition on one and a 90% partition on the other, then compare performance	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	the more free empty pages the card has, the longer the burst you can write before deferred page-erase kicks in and needs to finish clearing a page for the next chunk to write	20:56
DocScrutinizer05	I think equally spread inodes across the whole storage range are the worst thing you can do to a flash storage	20:57
ShadowJK	I'm not so sure the SD protocol lends itself to the device doing background cleaning :/	20:59
ShadowJK	New kernels and new SD cards (or emmc), and with driver support, there's actually a trim available	21:00
dos1	"The MultiMediaCard and SD ERASE (CMD38) command provides similar functionality to the ATA TRIM command, although it requires that erased blocks be overwritten with either zeroes or ones. eMMC 4.5 further defines a "discard" sub-operation that more closely matches ATA TRIM in that the contents of discarded blocks can be considered indeterminate (i.e., "don't care")."	21:00
dos1	via wiki	21:00
ShadowJK	But whether cards actually do anything useful with it is unknown. Full device trim runs so fast on the card I've got in my raspberry pi, I suspect it's a no-op on the card :-)	21:01
ShadowJK	Oh the a-data card in my N800 actually shows improved performance after dd of zeroes :-)	21:02
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ShadowJK	But after a full erase, it slows down far sooner than writing its capacity	21:03
ShadowJK	at 10% mark or so..	21:03
DocScrutinizer05	ShadowJK: (so fast) or deferred	21:04
DocScrutinizer05	dos1: thanks	21:05
ShadowJK	Well the bestest best cards now allegedly run a SLC mode log-structured cache, to help making FAT update faster on their new fancy 12 megabyte blocksize TLC nand	21:05
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ecc3g	there should be an option on MLC/TLC cards to run in SLC mode at the cost of halving or 1/3 the memory... I wonder how long the card would last in such a mode...	21:08
ecc3g	or I should say "slc" mode - using each cell for one bit instead of 2 or 3.	21:09
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ShadowJK	I have a (fullsize) SD card SLC 16GB.	21:12
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ShadowJK	It's not that great	21:12
ShadowJK	Would be more worthwhile spending silicon on improving the FTL	21:12
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Sysaxed	Hey guys, my phone was shut down most likely because watchdog tried to reboot it, now I cannot boot it at all. When I press power button I can see NOKIA logo on the white screen but then nothing happens	21:14
Sysaxed	I even had some boot menu installed, but even if I open my keyboard it wont get to it	21:15
Sysaxed	simply turns off after showing nokia logo	21:15
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Sysaxed	anybody? :)	21:32
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ShadowJK	No idea, other than that bootloader throws up the logo	21:33
ShadowJK	so it's not proceeding from that	21:33
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ShadowJK	So.. storage died, it thinks battery is dead, os is missing, other fault?	21:33
Sysaxed	could it be that it has no free space?	21:35
Sysaxed	battery is not dead for sure	21:36
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Sysaxed	if I plug in my USB cable then it shows the logo, turns off backlight, then reboots and does it again and again	21:38
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Sysaxed	I've tried taking out sd card but that doesn't seem to change anything	21:41
Sysaxed	so... reflashing is the only way?	21:41
SAiF	give 10 min without battery and try again?	21:43
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Sysaxed	that's actually a good idea, but I'm afraid that my device doesn't need whole 10 minutes	21:45
Sysaxed	even 10 seconds without the battery will result in a date reset	21:45
Sysaxed	but I will try it, thanks	21:46
Sysaxed	is there anything that I can use to debug current situationL	21:46
Sysaxed	?	21:46
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ShadowJK	I'm wondering if flasher could upload a kernel+initram without flashing it, and boot that for some sort of minimalist debugos	21:53
ShadowJK	dunno if such an image exists though..	21:54
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ShadowJK	Never really looked up this rescueos thing or how it works	21:54
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Sysaxed	no, battery trick did not work	22:00
Sysaxed	:(	22:00
Sysaxed	noooooo	22:00
Sysaxed	well, at least my files are backed up	22:01
Sysaxed	but still, bootmenu gave me false feeling that I'm safe even if something bad happens	22:01
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Fay	hello all	22:18
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DocScrutinizer05	it's called rescueOS	22:29
DocScrutinizer05	~rescueOS	22:30
infobot	well, rescueos is http://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/	22:30
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DocScrutinizer05	Sysaxed: ^^^	22:30
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Sysaxed	ehh	22:37
Sysaxed	I wish there were more DocScrutinizers in the world	22:38
Sysaxed	DocScrutinizer05: do you have any kids? :)	22:38
Sysaxed	if yes - good job! :)	22:40
Sysaxed	please excuse my momentary oblivion	22:45
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Sysaxed	haha	22:54
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Sysaxed	"to disable this message type 'stfu'"	22:55
Sysaxed	so	22:55
Sysaxed	I get Attention: Charge the battery bla-bla Current: 0%	22:56
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Sysaxed	does it mean that something is wrong with the battery?	22:56
ShadowJK	Does it mention a voltage? Otherwise the charge meter could've been reset when you had the battery out	22:57
Sysaxed	nope	22:57
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Sysaxed	umm, now when rescueos is running, what can I try?	22:59
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Sysaxed	for example, how can I check the free space?	23:02
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Sysaxed	uhhhmm	23:04
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Sysaxed	/rescueOS/umount-maemo-root.sh says umount: can't umount /mnt/maemo: Invalid argument	23:05
Sysaxed	Couldn't unmount. Most likely your fault. Are you in /mnt/maemo ?	23:05
Sysaxed	ah shit	23:06
Sysaxed	I'm dumb	23:06
Sysaxed	got it working, thanks	23:06
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Sysaxed	holy shit	23:11
Sysaxed	now it booted up correctly	23:11
Sysaxed	how could this happen	23:11
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Sysaxed	Well, I cannot believe it, but seems like simply booting rescue os fixed the problem	23:18
DocScrutinizer05	Sysaxed: I'm scared by the idea there could be more grumpy old men just like me	23:22
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DocScrutinizer05	anyway I consider defect battery a plausible cause of your problems	23:23
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DocScrutinizer05	Sysaxed: I'm doing my share to help extinct mankind - so no, no kids here	23:25
DocScrutinizer05	s/extinct/exterminate/	23:26
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: Sysaxed: I'm doing my share to help exterminate mankind - so no, no kids here	23:26
DocScrutinizer05	maybe NIN101 has kids - would be the way better elternative to me getting scared by my alter egos	23:28
DocScrutinizer05	alternative even	23:28
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Pali	for testers: pre release version of kp53: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1381948#post1381948	23:30
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NIN101	me? Better not :-).	23:31
Sysaxed	DocScrutinizer05: noooooooo :( are you kidding me	23:33
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* DocScrutinizer05 just thought about a world with 95% of human beings being an exact clone of DocScrutinizer05. :-o A terrible place to be, for ~218 minutes. Then maybe evolution gets a second chance after the slaughter		23:38
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