IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2013-09-26

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DocScrutinizer05~ham00:43
infobotham is, like, Hildon Application Manager.  Slow like molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does00:43
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DocScrutinizer05~literal ham00:44
infobot"#maemo ham" is "Hildon Application Manager.  Slow like molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does"00:44
DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, #maemo ham is Hildon Application Manager.  Slow as molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does00:45
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay00:45
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infobotsomebody said xyawn was coffee02:03
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DaReaperThe Neo900's price is way too costly13:45
DaReaperif the raspberry pi can cost so less13:45
DaReaperI wonder why would 300 Euro be the minimum price13:45
DaReaperit should probably be around inside 100 Euros13:45
jon_yDaReaper: only if you can sell 1 million on launch day13:46
DaReaperThat would be a really bad marketing strategy if you even thought of the 1 Million milestone13:46
jon_yI doubt Neo900 can do that without any massive propaganda efforts13:46
WizzupI smell a troll13:47
jon_ynot to mention it lacks the political weight to break into carrier controlled networks13:47
DaReaperComparing the actual hardware features with that of the N900, it's way overpriced if it has to start at that base.13:48
jon_yDaReaper: :business:13:49
jon_yno one is going to do low quantity productions13:50
kerioDaReaper: on the other hand, that's pretty much how much it'll cost to make13:50
jon_yeconomies of scale hardly has any effect here13:50
keriojon_y: well13:50
kerioit's precisely that effect13:50
DaReaper@Kerio there should be an open petition as to disclosure of the components price and the labor charges before coming to a conclusion of that sort13:51
jon_ykerio: we do have the numbers to make manufacturers happy?13:51
kerioof course not13:51
keriono scale, no economy13:51
jon_yyeah, precisely13:51
DaReaperUsually I'd agree on the bumper price at the start of the launch and a gradual decrease to build brand image13:52
jon_yDaReaper: the manufacturers tell you NOPE13:52
kerioyeah13:52
kerioassuming you have a capital and a brand image to build13:52
jon_yraspberry pi too had its fair share of problems13:52
DaReaperbut then a base of 300 Euro gives really hazy picture of the pricing strategy here13:52
jon_ydamn near impossible to get anybody to build it13:52
DaReaperBut then problems are a part of business and they're doing still well with their current price13:53
keriosheevaplug > rpi13:53
jon_yyeah well, these things hardly have any manufacturers picking them up13:53
jon_yI don't think most manufacturers would even bat an eye if the profit margin is so low13:54
jon_ywell, Chinese factories might pick it up13:54
DaReaperWell if the Chinese can do it like you're saying, then if the manufacturers plan to price more despite them already achieving the goal of profit.. it's overpricing13:55
DaReaperand by Chinese it's not always bad quality as the image has sparkled.13:56
jon_yDaReaper: chinese are willing to do it if you order 1 billion units13:57
jon_ythey don't mind ultra low margins13:58
jon_yas long as numbers make up for it13:58
DaReaperUsually the Chinese weren't expecting china phones to be sold elsewhere in the world at the start, they didn't have a 1 Billion unit to be sold goal set. It was how they expanded into the market.13:59
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DaReaperI'm taking china phones as an example to this.13:59
jon_ysure, if you don't mind Neo900 sold in China only :)14:00
jon_yyou'd have to compete with the other million android phones14:00
jon_yDaReaper: china phones are mostly variations of each other14:02
DaReaperNeo900 has a good open market and it has realized the needs of the people, they've got the hardware requirements. But then I fear if they were to be geographically focused, they'd not be targeting the large customer base. Cause those who've used the N900 would have a good idea of this.14:02
jon_yrather than completely new builds14:02
jon_ydoing something completely new like the Neo900 has enormous setup costs14:03
jon_ybasically, you give the specs and they design it for you14:04
DaReaperAlso, considering China phones... Neo900 can do the very same.. but ofcourse the target customers would only increase over time once they realize it's potential.14:04
jon_ythat is a very very optimistic way of thinking14:04
DaReaperIsn't this based on the gta04?14:04
jon_yyes, with some modifications iirc14:05
DaReaperHmm okay, so basically they have the blueprint of this and also gta04 has been kind of a prototype base for it to start with14:05
DaReaperSo I wonder if the manufacturing costs would be high considering the product is already existent and is aware of the market and should have learnt of it by now.14:06
DaReaperBut ofcourse this is just my personal opinion14:08
DaReaperwas kind of uncomfortable after I noticed the prices on the poll.14:09
keriouncomfortable with what?14:09
DaReaperThe prices.14:09
keriowell do you own a production facility?14:09
kerioor know of a way to get a better price14:10
DaReaperNo.14:10
keriodo you think that there's malice behind that price?14:10
DaReaperI could have ideas, might voice it there.14:10
keriodo you think that there's incompetence, and are able to provide a better alternative?14:11
DaReaperNo my thoughts weren't directed to anything of that sort.14:11
dos1DaReaper: "Comparing the actual hardware features with that of the N900, it's way overpriced if it has to start at that base."14:11
DaReaperNo.14:11
jon_yI'd be willing to pay 700 Euros too, if my salary was in Euros14:11
dos1those are the production costs in small quantities14:11
kerioyes, it would be better if it was a lot cheaper14:12
keriobut as it stands, it's not possible14:12
dos1there's no way to make it cheaper without investing lots of money in it which you may never see again, because of small target niche14:12
dos1to make it cheaper, you have to manufacture thousands or even milions of them in advance14:12
DaReaperOkay, but it would still depend on how you plan those investments14:13
dos1you need to actually find someone with that money14:13
DaReaperThe target could be expanded and this depends on the price and in turn if you can smartly invest it can be reduced.14:14
dos1"can be" - sure it can14:14
jon_yso did all the other niche Linux phones14:14
dos1if you have millions euros to spend on R&D, marketing, PR and relations with carieers14:14
jon_yyou don't see manufacturers jumping up and down to build them14:14
jon_yor fanboys everywhere waiting in line14:14
dos1unless we get thousands of preorders in advance, we *don't* have that money14:15
DaReaperYes, but that brings in the factor of what system software it runs on14:15
dos1DaReaper: you're free to invest your milions into Neo900 development14:16
dos1I'll be happy to see it and future projects like that dominating the mobile market14:16
jon_yhow do you judge the factor if there are none to begin with?14:16
DaReaperOkay, so does there stand a chance where if there were more preorders unlike the 1 Billion goal set, there could be a reduction in price?14:16
jon_yright now, there are no Neo900 units for customers to feedback on14:16
jon_ysure, if manufacturers are happy to do so to ramp up numbers14:17
jon_yyou promise them 1billion more units if they can reduce price14:17
jon_yI'm sure they'd be happy to make another billion if it means more money for them14:17
dos1prices can be reduced when there'll be interest on billion level14:18
DaReaperI couldn't judge the factor with none available but then you could categorize the best needed based on the target audience.14:18
dos1sure, we can say "it will cost 100 EUR, we just need 1 billion preorders!"14:18
jon_yDaReaper: not going to work if you only have that big of an audience14:19
DaReaperWhat if maybe, a marketing agenda was created to have a cheap device just like rpi does?14:19
dos1but really? will we get 1 billion preorders?14:19
DaReapercould there be a possibility then maybe without expecting 1 billion preorders you'd still have a lower price14:19
jon_yno14:19
keriook, i'll preorder 900 millions14:19
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jon_ynobody has the money for the setup14:19
dos1and what then? "sorry, it will cost 600 EUR cause there's not enough interest"14:19
DaReaperokay right, so there's no large investment available okay14:20
dos1and then 95% of preorders will be canceled14:20
dos1and project failed14:20
dos1yay14:20
jon_ygood job guys14:20
kerioDaReaper: so far, your only argument is "well maybe it could've been made cheaper somehow"14:20
dos1it *will* be cheaper, if only there'll be enough interest14:20
dos1we won't seel it for 700 EUR when there'll be 10k preorders14:21
jon_ywhich is really a chicken and egg problem unless you have BIG MONEY to sink into advertisement14:21
dos1s/seel/sell/14:21
infobotdos1 meant: we won't sell it for 700 EUR when there'll be 10k preorders14:21
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dos1but we won't promise pie in the sky from start, just to fail to fulfil this promise later14:23
dos1ubuntu edge failed their fundraising campain14:23
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dos1so I wouldn't set hopes so high for neo900 fundraising abilities in this regard14:24
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DaReaperTo be honest I wasn't arguing or setting up an argument, I just thought there should have been a reason for the hefty pricing initially and I got to know it. I usually get to hear "Good job guys" after a debate's been won and concluded xD14:25
DaReaperBut then I'm was of the perspective that maybe the price could be reduced. It's fine anyways. Thanks for solving my query.14:26
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hahlopeaceful again14:46
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* psycho_oreos skims through the chat buffer, notices something interesting. Reads from start till end and was amazed someone else had similar sort of thing as he did. :o15:00
psycho_oreosSo much for "six degrees of separation.".15:01
jon_ywhat did you do, psycho_oreos?15:01
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psycho_oreosjon_y, I didn't do anything. When I read about the prices of Neo900 that people were willing to pay and how much it will cost. I was thinking about potentially outsourcing the work to Chinese. I started thinking more of pros and cons but before I wanted to make a reply (on that thread), I decided to not go ahead with my thought as it may enrage some hardware engineers/designers.15:03
psycho_oreosI had that sort of idea weeks ago and then all of the sudden whilst I'm in other channel, the very same topic cropped up behind my back.15:05
jon_ywell, it isn't very practical to push it to the Chinese if you have a custome design without big money incentives15:06
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dos1BTW. one of the great things in GTA04 manufacturing process that Neo900 will inherit is that it's produced in proper working conditions15:08
dos1it's manufactured in Bavaria, Germany15:08
psycho_oreosYeah I wasn't thinking about that but more-so on the fact that when N900 existed, the Chinese wanted to create a knock-off clone of the N900. Obviously that wasn't a success but if let's say that this new design (we at maemo.org and openmoko.org) have been collaborating on a new device that supersedes N900. We will provide you schematics, interested?15:09
dos1no children are harmed during production of OpenPhoenux phones15:09
psycho_oreosI mean that might somewhat persuade them a little.15:09
psycho_oreosYeah that's the other thing that basically stopped me wanting to respond to that thread with my ideas.15:10
dos1I think that's good thing that goes really well with the spirit of freedom in this project15:10
jon_ydos1: so when it's out, how do I go about ordering it?15:10
dos1jon_y: probably somewhat similar to current GTA04 - https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA0415:11
jon_ydoes it do international orders?15:11
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dos1yup15:11
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jon_yhow do I look up shipment costs?15:12
dos1maybe there'll be some resellers15:12
dos1but it's too early to say for sure15:12
jon_yhmm ok15:13
psycho_oreosThe other thing is that if we restrict it to manufacture strictly at .de. We may also impede on the amount of actual sales. Though of course it's not like as if I have some sort of crystal glass to look into the future and see the outcome of Neo900.15:13
jon_ydos1: will be out for Christmas? :)15:13
psycho_oreosSure the quality in .de is no doubt perfect and all but apart from costs of labour and such may amount to lower sales.15:13
dos1jon_y: this year? nope15:13
jon_yhmm ok, I hope the specs improve next year15:14
dos1some 5-6 months from now till release15:14
jon_yI was hoping I can get it with my year end bonuses :)15:14
psycho_oreosjon_y, it also heavily depends on the developers porting Fremantle UI across.15:14
psycho_oreosInvite some more coders/reverse engineers then it may happen.15:15
dos1production of hardware can happen independently to fremantle port15:15
dos1it won't ship with fremantle preinstalled15:15
jon_ythat is fine too, as long it has uboot on it or something15:16
dos1but of course, it'd be nice if it'll be already in some working state on release day15:16
jon_yso I can boot random binaries off the internet :)15:16
dos1jon_y: GTA04 comes with Debian preinstalled15:16
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jon_ywe could put Debian on the Neo900 too15:17
dos1(without any telephony framework installed, but there's FSO in repos)15:17
dos1yup15:17
jon_ywell, if maemo isn't ready by the time it ships15:17
dos1anyway, it won't ship with maemo15:17
dos1there are some closed blobs that you need to obtain by providing valid N900 IMEI and we probably can't redistribute them with different device15:18
psycho_oreosAhh looks like I was mistaken, I thought Neo900 will only be shipped when Fremantle is ported across.15:18
dos1but anyone will be free to download and install it by themselves, so that shouldn't be a big problem15:19
dos1psycho_oreos: nope, those are two related, but independent projects15:19
psycho_oreosdos1, I guess I stand corrected. :)15:19
dos1Neo900 hw will be designed to make Fremantle porting easier, but it doesn't have to wait for it to be finished15:19
dos1after all, you may buy Neo900 while not being interested in Maemo at all15:20
psycho_oreosI guess in a way to also entice other openmoko users/owners? :)15:20
dos1yup15:21
dos1Neo900 is a general purpose mobile platform15:21
dos1just like GTA0415:21
jon_ywhat do I fill in the tax forms? :)15:21
jon_y[x] engineering sample15:21
dos1jon_y: sorry, I have no idea about all this tax stuff15:22
jon_yI'm kind of worried customs might seize the device15:22
dos1I'm from EU, so it won't be a big problem for me to order it from Germany15:22
jon_yif I do buy one15:22
dos1I hope there'll be some resellers outside of EU to make all this stuff easier15:22
jon_yyeah, I'm not in EU15:22
dos1as it was with Openmoko15:23
psycho_oreosI guess if one's local customs seizes the product, they would probably ask you to briefly describe your purposes, etc.15:23
psycho_oreosChances are, it's unlikely that's ever going to happen unless you bought multiple of the same units and they're all under one name, one address, etc.15:24
jon_yprobably15:24
psycho_oreosOf course customs are usually country/culture specific but I guess most sane ones wouldn't care much.15:25
* psycho_oreos recalls of the case with MohammadAG when the N950 (yes a N950) was lost in transit.15:26
jon_ywhat happened?15:27
psycho_oreosI can't quite remember the whole story but because MohammadAG was shortlisted as one of the many Qt developers to develop programs for the upcoming n9 (at the time). nokia supposedly sent out N950 to all the shortlisted applicants and emailed them the tracking number for each. MohammadAG tracked his but apparently the status kept showing that it was in transit or something.15:28
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psycho_oreosIt was about a month before the whole case on waiting was dropped, the conclusion was simply that it was "lost in transit". It could be stolen or confiscated without permission.15:30
jon_yit was lost forever?15:30
psycho_oreosI think it was yeah, basically forever.15:31
jon_y:(15:31
psycho_oreosThat story by now is way more than a year old, virtually one and a half years ago.15:32
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psycho_oreosI haven't been keeping in tab on the story fully at the time, I guess MohammadAG may have sourced another N950 elsewhere or from nokia again (I think). Though whoever stole that N950 is well..15:35
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psycho_oreosHmm.. that also reminds me. dos1, if say Neo900 gets produced and supposedly it would be shipped worldwide (of course after you get people paying for it). Would you also be able add extra requirements? say for example if one were to somehow bypass customs and/or to prevent the device being stolen whilst in transit. Can you like declare that the device was sent as a broken device and have no firmware flashed?16:05
dos1psycho_oreos: that might be a bit risky to Goldelico16:06
psycho_oreosdos1, *nods* just thinking of it hypothetically.16:07
psycho_oreosI mean like if a customer wants it to be like that for instance.16:07
* psycho_oreos would honestly hate to order something that is expensive and to not have it in his own hands because of some lowlife person that has to go about their own ways of making lives of others miserable.16:10
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DocScrutinizer05we (GolDeliCo) willl send a humble 200 devices. We sure have enough time and love to handle each case very individually17:37
DocScrutinizer05I recall we managed to send a few devices to Belarus and to Russia, was real fun17:38
DocScrutinizer05basically in the end they were "smuggled" iirc17:39
DocScrutinizer05The N900 to PaulFertser for hostmode-kernel (Moskow) was really GREAT funĀ”17:40
DocScrutinizer05not even Nokia was able to send to a private addr in Moskow, only to corporate addr17:41
DocScrutinizer05and then the custums asked for some 200 bucks "processing fee" still17:41
psycho_oreosSending N900 to Russia? o.O is that why there's all those nice Russian sites giving us maemo goodies? :D $200 bucks? hopefully not 200 euros.17:44
DocScrutinizer05in the end Paul got a device from RST38h who happens to live in Moskow as well and had one devel device he could pass on, which he imported from a maemo convention he visited, in Finnland17:44
psycho_oreosCool I never knew PaulFertzer was based in Russia.17:44
DocScrutinizer05or somesuch went the tale17:44
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DocScrutinizer05yep, Paul lives in Moskow17:48
psycho_oreosDamn haha the Russians are crazy. :D17:50
DocScrutinizer05Paul will agree wholeheartedly17:50
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DocScrutinizer05he told me a lot of weird stories about his pupils in the EE/CS classes he held17:51
DocScrutinizer05s/pupils/students/17:52
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: he told me a lot of weird stories about his students in the EE/CS classes he held17:52
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psycho_oreos:o17:53
psycho_oreosSounds like he's an university professor or something.17:53
DocScrutinizer05dunno if university or some other educational entity17:54
psycho_oreos*nods*17:55
DocScrutinizer05and he's no professor afaik17:55
psycho_oreosAhh but still a lecturer whom seems to also be interested in wireless technologies.17:55
psycho_oreosWell wireless, embedded and what have you.17:56
DocScrutinizer05not that it makes any difference, particularly not in Russia - there the professors starve just like the beggars17:56
psycho_oreoso.O17:57
DocScrutinizer05many of the professors had to start a job as taxidriver in the old days when glasnost etc kicked in, iirc17:58
DocScrutinizer05to make a living17:58
DocScrutinizer05while Moskow is the most expensive town on earth, I heard17:59
DocScrutinizer05wird17:59
DocScrutinizer05weird even17:59
DocScrutinizer05I can't even imagine how life in Moskow might be18:00
psycho_oreosYeah I'm not quite sure how their systems run, but that sounds pretty bad.18:00
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* psycho_oreos has the song: "Rammstein - Moskau" playing in his head.18:02
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dos1DocScrutinizer05: we've got some refferals on neo900.org from boards.4chan.org :D18:07
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ShadowJKcan you tell which board? :)18:08
dos1lemme check server logs18:09
DocScrutinizer05dos1: nice18:10
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DocScrutinizer05on a sidenote: some of you still might recall (or even experience every day) the annoying bug in mce that switches off the indicator LED when you lock the device in bright daylight18:12
* psycho_oreos seems to recall it happening.18:13
dos1https://archive.installgentoo.net/g/thread/3695575618:13
dos1and https://archive.installgentoo.net/g/thread/3687865418:15
dos1threads from 4chan's /g/ with neo900 mentions18:15
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DocScrutinizer05in /usr/lib/mce/modules/libfilter-brightness-als.so the must be a struct {int a[5][2]; int brightness[6]}18:16
dos1https://archive.installgentoo.net/g/thread/3686038218:16
DocScrutinizer05with values  { {{ 32, 64 } ,{ 100, 1000 } ,{ -1, -1 } ,{ -1, -1 } ,{ -1, -1 } ,}, { 5, 5, 0, 0, 0, 0  }}18:17
DocScrutinizer05change the  5, 5, 0, 0  to  5, 5, 5, 0  and this bug should be gone18:17
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psycho_oreosThanks, I'm going to try and note that down. My N900s aren't working properly now. :/ You should post that in a thread or something. :D18:20
DocScrutinizer05first 5 is brightness of LED under 32lux, 2nd between 32 and 64 lux, the third for between 100 and 1000lux, and you probably want to change the 4th digit "0" also to "5" for ALS >1000lux18:21
DocScrutinizer05so18:21
DocScrutinizer05change the  5, 5, 0, 0  to  5, 5, 5, 5  and this bug should be gone18:21
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a_l_ehi. i have a n900 and i'd like to play a stream coming from mpd...19:16
a_l_e... what should i install on the n900?19:16
a_l_ethe browser tells me that it's an ogg file and offers me to download it.19:17
a_l_ethe media player tells me that the format is not supported19:18
psycho_oreosYou need something like extradecoders-support for instance.19:18
a_l_ethanks! ... installing it...19:19
a_l_edownloading failed :-(19:19
psycho_oreosThere's a reason why, look for it. It might be in the logs.19:21
a_l_etrying to install from the web...19:23
DocScrutinizer05"download failed" is not a error report we could help with. Please try to follow psycho_oreos' recommendation and get detals from logs on *why* it failed19:24
a_l_ei'll have a look at the logs if necessary...19:26
a_l_erebooting right now...19:26
psycho_oreosWell.. it is necessary.19:26
a_l_ewell, i've installed through the web... i hope that it has worked that way...19:27
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DocScrutinizer05ogg-support - Ogg/Vorbis/Flac support for n90019:28
a_l_eit didn't work :-()19:28
a_l_euninstalling19:29
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# apt-cache policy ogg-support19:30
DocScrutinizer05ogg-support:19:30
DocScrutinizer05  Installed: 1.1.119:30
DocScrutinizer05  Candidate: 1.1.119:30
DocScrutinizer05  Version table:19:30
DocScrutinizer05 *** 1.1.1 019:30
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:30
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:30
DocScrutinizer05        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status19:30
DocScrutinizer05     1.1 019:30
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:30
DocScrutinizer05     1.0.8 019:30
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:30
DocScrutinizer05     1.0.7~rc1 019:30
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:31
DocScrutinizer05     1.0.5 019:31
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:31
DocScrutinizer05     1.0.3 019:31
DocScrutinizer05        500 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.3/free Packages19:31
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~#19:31
DocScrutinizer05dang19:31
DocScrutinizer05why did pastebin fail? sorry!19:31
psycho_oreoso.O I think there's pastebinit in the maemo.org repository. You can pipe the output of that into pastebinit in the future. :)19:33
DocScrutinizer05yeah sure19:33
DocScrutinizer05I prefer my desktop means though19:33
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psycho_oreosEr or maybe not.. awhile ago I had to get it from ubuntu repository.. but I can't remember now anymore.19:33
psycho_oreos*nods*19:34
DocScrutinizer05mak in xterm, click the pastebin applet19:34
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DocScrutinizer05pastebinit braks every 4 months and you need to get the new one from random locations in internet and make the scriptie executable on device19:35
DocScrutinizer05breaks, even19:35
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DocScrutinizer05there's even | netcat paste.dyndns.org 1234, but that stopped working recently as well19:36
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_d0thi. Is anyone using a recent kernel on n900? I'm trying to boot 3.10, but it fails at the beginning.19:36
a_l_emmm i think i will try to get mpd to stream mp3...19:36
psycho_oreosTrue but it somewhat is worth it imo. Somewhat handy than worrying about mishaps, I guess to each their own. :)19:36
a_l_eit's probably easier.19:36
DocScrutinizer05*sigh*19:37
psycho_oreosa_l_e, it might even be more easier if you could do it through something like shoutcast iinm.19:37
psycho_oreosAye, I'm not going to rub it in. Just saying lol.19:37
psycho_oreos3.10?19:39
psycho_oreosWait.. kernel 3.10? what the.. are you nuts?19:39
DocScrutinizer05streaming of mp3 is actually not supported in standard maemo core apps afaik19:39
_d0tpsycho_oreos: not particularly.19:39
a_l_ethanks!19:40
DocScrutinizer05booting 3.x kernels on N900 is all easypeasy19:40
DocScrutinizer05just it won't work togeher with fremantle19:40
a_l_eno, it does not work :-(19:40
psycho_oreos_d0t, afaik kernel 3.x is in development and it's mainly those whom are daring enough to run it. There's probably less than a handful of developers working on 3.x kernel for fremantle.19:41
_d0ti dont care about fremantle. i have gentoo installed there. i just need a working kernel config, because rx51_defconfig doesnt seem to boot.19:41
a_l_eit plays two notes and then it skips to the next radio station.19:41
psycho_oreosAhh well I'd say it might be best to ask the current power-kernel maintainer directly. Though no guarantees.19:42
DocScrutinizer05well, maybe ask in gentoo then?19:42
_d0thuh... gentoo doesnt have anything to do with the kernel, does it?19:43
_d0tI thought power-kernel is still at 2.6.28 version.19:43
* psycho_oreos wonders how many gentoo developers left to continually maintain their build on maemo.. probably less than a handful as well.19:43
DocScrutinizer05how does #maemo have to do anything with 3-x kernels and defconfig?19:43
_d0t#maemo has everything to do with n900 :)19:43
Palihttp://gitorious.org/linux-n90019:44
psycho_oreosYeah, though the current maintainer may still have knowledge of (or maybe maybe of) 3.x19:44
Paliuse kernel from n900 branch19:44
_d0tPali: yeah, thats what i'm using19:44
a_l_eok, on android it seems to work better with mp3.19:45
_d0tPali: you are one of the active developers there, right?19:45
Paliyes19:45
DocScrutinizer05_d0t: nope, #maemo is about maemo19:45
Palidefault rx51_defconfig booting from ubifs rootfs mtd19:45
a_l_eok, i have to leave now... i'll have to try again at some later time...19:45
psycho_oreosa_l_e, does mpd support shoutcast stream? if so, that may not need much more work on the N900 itself. You can probably even continue to use that same osso-mediaplayer.19:46
_d0tPali: trying it now. Its stuck after switching to colour buffer device.19:46
psycho_oreosUnder osso-mediaplayer, there's a thing called internet radio. Supposedly if you can get your mpd to output in a format that osso-mediaplayer can support it should work.19:47
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_d0tPali: then i guess the watchdog kicks in and reboots the device.19:48
DocScrutinizer05mhm, so what?19:48
DocScrutinizer05still #maemo?19:48
Paliyo need to compile watchdog drivers into zimage19:48
a_l_emmm. psycho_oreos i can stream to an icecast2 server...19:48
Pali=Y19:49
a_l_ebut i don't think that is is useful.19:49
a_l_ehowever: thanks for your help19:49
psycho_oreosa_l_e, I'm not particularly sure what format are those internet radio broadcast in. Though I'd say I've given you some pointers in which you can then research up if you're interested.19:49
DocScrutinizer05and the wd needs support from userland, I'd guess19:49
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Palino, you can turn watchdog off19:50
DocScrutinizer05and userland != maemo, aiui19:50
a_l_eyep, you gave several good hints!19:50
a_l_ethanks!19:50
a_l_ei'm quitting, so the hints do not scroll down!19:50
_d0tPali: CONFIG_TWL4030_WATCHDOG=m this is from the defconfig. I suppose this might be the source of the issue.19:50
Paliand when driver load, it disable watchdogs automatically19:50
a_l_ehave a nice evening, if it's evening at your place!19:50
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Paliyou need to change it from =M to =Y19:50
_d0tok19:51
DocScrutinizer05only because userland doesn't load the wd module19:51
Paliyes, userland maybe not load it19:51
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Palibut if userland is broken, then you have no way to read why19:52
DocScrutinizer05so again. isn't this a question for #gentoo then?19:52
_d0tDocScrutinizer05: this has nothing to do with gentoo or the userspace at all.19:52
DocScrutinizer05uhuh19:52
DocScrutinizer05[2013-09-26 18:51:19] <DocScrutinizer05> only because userland doesn't load the wd module19:53
DocScrutinizer05[2013-09-26 18:51:40] <Pali> yes, userland maybe not load it19:53
DocScrutinizer05userland=maemo? NO userland= gentoo19:53
_d0tDocScrutinizer05: it didnt get to the userspace19:53
_d0tPali: thanks, that solved the problem.19:53
DocScrutinizer05sure19:54
DocScrutinizer05but not maemo related19:54
_d0tDocScrutinizer05: still I had much better chances of finding someone who works on n900 support in the recent kernels here than on #gentoo or some other channel. Stop whining.19:55
DocScrutinizer05I'm just making my point that you were wrong to assume #maemo was the right channel for asking about problems with 3.x kernel under gentoo19:56
_d0tDocScrutinizer05: do you really think that the distribution of chose has something to do with the kernel unable to boot?19:56
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DocScrutinizer05yes, obviously. Shall I paste a copy of the copy of pali's and my post, again?19:57
_d0tDocScrutinizer05: you should read my post, again.19:57
DocScrutinizer05your distro doesn't handle watchdog so the kernel driver module doesn't get loaded thus you need to mess with kernel defconfig19:58
_d0tno19:58
DocScrutinizer05evidently same 3.x kernel boots for pali and others just fine19:58
_d0tagain, no19:59
DocScrutinizer05MEH!19:59
_d0tcool, huh? You're wrong twice19:59
DocScrutinizer05/changenic _d0t _Not19:59
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DocScrutinizer05no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,20:00
DocScrutinizer05cool, eh= you been wrong 11 tinmes20:00
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* DocScrutinizer05 wonders how long since last /kick - weird strange desires growing20:01
_d0tare you threatening me?20:02
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DocScrutinizer05are you trolling the channel?20:04
_d0twhy do you answer with a question?20:05
DocScrutinizer05why do you?20:05
_d0tare you a jew?20:05
DocScrutinizer05first infracton points towards kick for trolling20:05
_d0tare you afraid that i might be trolling you?20:06
DocScrutinizer05second and last warning20:06
_d0twhy do you keep warning me? Are you trolling me?20:06
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useretailhey20:18
useretailis anyone alive?20:18
DocScrutinizer05no20:18
DocScrutinizer05no intelligent life down here20:18
DocScrutinizer05so bean me up, Scotty20:18
DocScrutinizer05beam* even20:18
Apic;-)20:19
ApicMeta-Questions suck.20:19
DocScrutinizer05~ask20:19
infobotQuestions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.20:19
useretaili had power-kernel and few days ago i installed multiboot via apt and forgot about it. today i had to reboot my n900 and it showed me multiboot menu with two items but when i select any it reboots20:21
useretailwhat's next?20:21
DocScrutinizer05~maemo-multiboot20:22
infobot[maemo-multiboot] deprecated, and a horrible hack.  PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED20:22
useretailis there any other solutions?20:22
useretaillike adding proper kernel?20:23
DocScrutinizer05hmm, probably you could try to flash the right KP-kernel, via flasher with --flash-kernel-only20:23
DocScrutinizer05or use rescueOS to clean up the mess multiboot caused on your rootfs20:23
DocScrutinizer05~rescueos20:24
infobotrescueos is probably http://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/20:24
useretailyes, i have tried rescueos already, but where i can find the kernel?20:24
DocScrutinizer05I guess you'll need the KP52(?) image you used last. there are images available somehwhere - pali could help out with a pointer20:25
DocScrutinizer05stock kernel otoh is inside fiasco image aka COMBINED20:26
Paliin extras-devel in -bootimg packages20:26
DocScrutinizer05thanks Pali20:26
Paliyou need to unpack them from deb package20:26
useretailzImage-2.6.28.10-power52 < is that the one?20:26
Paliit must be without extension20:26
Palithen yes20:26
useretailok, will try now20:27
ApicI installed u-boot-flasher and reinstalled kernel-power, now it boots _just_ kernel-power and I no longer have the Option to boot the original Kernel or Nitdroid like with multiboot (original is not a Problem, I need _just_ kernel-power, but how can I choose between Power and Nitdroid again? Will just reinstalling Nitdroid get me back a Menu at boot Time?)20:27
ApicAnd does U-Boot have the same Logic - boot with pulled out Keyboard shows Menu?20:28
Palireinstall u-boot-flasher20:28
Paliyes20:28
Apick20:28
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i can help with a pointer too! 0x0c003b7220:28
keriowell20:29
kerio(void *)0x0c003b7220:29
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kerio...it's a joke20:30
kerioacknowledge it, dammit!20:30
DocScrutinizer05for KP under uboot you can't use the standard KP package since uboot is mutually exclusive with KP and stock kernel20:31
DocScrutinizer05kerio: ROTFL20:31
useretaildo i have to add --flash-only=kernel option in addition to -k ?20:31
keriouseretail: no, it's implied20:31
keriowell, it'll try to flash everything it has20:31
DocScrutinizer05for uboot there are kernel images to place into somewhere in userland, you need to use those20:31
Pali-bootimg packages20:32
DocScrutinizer05useretail: when you leave out --flash-only=kernel  then you will nuke/reflash your rootfs when using a fiasco image for input file "-F"20:33
kerioDocScrutinizer05: ok, let's try a different joke then20:33
kerioa TCP packet walks into a bar, and says to the bartender: "i'd like a beer"20:33
keriothe bartender says: "a beer?"20:33
kerioand the packet: "yes, a beer"20:33
* ShadowJK laughs20:33
useretailstrange, before flashing i decided to check for the last time and it booted up!20:33
kerioi'd also tell you a joke about UDP, but i'm not sure you'd get it20:34
ShadowJKkerio; did you hear the one about pulseaudio?20:34
kerioi thought pulseaudio *was* the joke!20:34
DocScrutinizer05indeed it *is*20:35
keriomh, let's test this20:35
ShadowJKI for one, heard nothing.20:35
keriohey Pali20:35
keriopulseaudio20:35
DocScrutinizer05hahaha20:35
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: excellent! :-)20:35
dos1good one :)20:37
useretailhow to remove multiboot safely / completely?20:38
ApicOk, I reinstalled u-boot-flasher, and now I get a nice Menu with Keyboard slid out, but the only Option that seems to work is "Attached Kernel", and that boots the vanilla one, i.e. not -power20:38
ApicShall I try installing kernel-power again too?20:38
kerioyou need to install kernel-power-bootimg20:39
ApicOk20:39
DocScrutinizer05useretail: that's where ~maemo-multiboot comes from. You basically can't, or it's at least pretty cumbersome20:39
DocScrutinizer05Apic: see what me and Pali explained a few posts above20:39
DocScrutinizer05Apic: installing kernel-power (sans -bootimg) will nuke uBoot again20:40
Apicoic20:40
Palino20:41
Paliif you have uboot installed it will ask you if you want to reflash kernel or not20:41
DocScrutinizer05Apic: KP, uBoot, and stock kernel, all three share the same space to live in. So installing one nukes the other20:41
Paliunless you have uboot20:41
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ApicNow I did aptitude reinstall kernel-power-bootimg and it says "Adding bootmenu entry for: 'Maemo 5 with kernel 2.6.28.10-power52 (Internal Nand)':20:42
Paliand installing any flasher will ask you what you want20:42
Palithat is ok20:42
Palijust reboot device with open keyboard20:42
DocScrutinizer05Pali: yep, pretty convenient extension on packaging20:42
ApicAnd can I have NITDroid added as an Option too?20:42
Paliand you will see it20:42
DocScrutinizer05afaik nitdroid supports uBoot since a few years, so yes20:43
Paliyes also nitdroid can be added to options20:43
ApicOk.20:43
Palivakkov worked on it20:43
DocScrutinizer05just DO NOT install multiboot again!20:43
ApicYup, U-Boot Menu shows both -omap1 and -power52 now20:43
ApicOk.20:43
Paliand he posted images and config files for nitdroid on nitdroid forum20:43
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DocScrutinizer05multiboot is actually flashing a new kernel during each boot20:46
DocScrutinizer05that's like flashing a new BIOS to your PC each boot, do select between windows and linux to boot20:46
DocScrutinizer05obviously extremely dangerous and clumsy20:47
DocScrutinizer05thus, steer clear of multiboot! by all means!20:47
Apicic20:47
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useretailthx guys i learned a nice lesson20:51
DocScrutinizer05yw20:51
DocScrutinizer05:-)20:51
DocScrutinizer05always pleased to meet new users willing to learn20:52
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DocScrutinizer05useretail: my explanation of how multiboot works, as of above, also explains why multiboot nukes your uBoot or any other special boot setup you done20:58
DocScrutinizer05multiboot does during boot what you're supposed to NEVER do: flash a new kernel over uBoot20:59
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Apicnitdroid-installer says "Multiboot will be installed", so this is not the right one to use, eh?21:10
kerionitdroid is not the right thing to use i'm afraid21:10
Apicic21:10
ApicSo http://wiki.maemo.org/Nitdroid_easy_install_on_EMMC is probably not the right Guide to follow either, eh? ;-)21:11
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DocScrutinizer05sorry, I never looked into nitdroid so I can't help a lot regarding what's the right installation procedure. But one thing is for sure, any installation procedure that installs multiboot is the wrong one21:17
ApicOkay.21:18
ApicI already installed and ran it a Couple of Months ago, so the rootfs on my microSD is probably right, "just" the Kernel would need to be added to U-Boot21:19
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DocScrutinizer05yep21:27
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DocScrutinizer05I just read the instruction/howto, about repartitioning eMMC. Sounds pretty nasty to have mmcblk0p1,mmcblk0p5(extended!),mmcblk0p2,mmcblk0p321:29
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: ^^^ :-o21:30
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm, I've never played with that21:30
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Nitdroid_easy_install_on_EMMC#Method_2   7.Create new extended partition:21:31
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: it's not at all about nitdroid, I'm worried about e.g. ke-recv21:31
DocScrutinizer05uBoot, etc21:31
DocScrutinizer05freak partiton table21:32
freemangordonI guess it somehow survives, at least I am not aware of any bugreport :)21:32
DocScrutinizer05p1, p2, p5, p3 ???21:32
DocScrutinizer05beggs for trouble21:32
freemangordoncould be21:33
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DocScrutinizer05iirc the partitioning defines that you can have only ONE extended partition, which has to be the last one. inside this extended partition you can have virtual partitions as many as you like, emphasis on "inside"21:35
ApicAFAIK the one extended Partition can be any one of the first 4, does not have to be Number 421:36
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm, iirc you can have up to 3 or even 4 extended partition, but I might be wrong21:36
freemangordon*partitions21:36
DocScrutinizer05http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_partitioning#Extended_partition21:38
DocScrutinizer05and s/virtual/logical/21:38
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Paliwhat do you think? can we finally push TI HD DSP codecs into extras-devel?21:39
PaliI can find some time and create debian packaging for hd video playback21:40
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freemangordonRight now I am thinking that I hate SSI driver and the fact that I can't find the reason why SSI interrupts are not triggered :(21:41
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Palifreemangordon: maybe you can look at sry kernel tree21:42
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freemangordonPali: what to look for? I event ported SSI driver from nemo N9/50 kernel, with the same result21:43
Palitry skry 3.5 kernel with maemo21:43
freemangordonPali: There is at least one bug I fixed in the clock framework, but that doesn;t help either :(21:43
Palimaybe there is problem in userspace21:44
freemangordonPali: it is not21:44
Paliok, you know21:44
freemangordonPali: does DSP wrk in 3.5?21:44
freemangordon*work21:44
Palido not know21:45
Palibut dsp drivers are enabled in 3.10 and 3.1221:45
freemangordonbecasue it seems SSI shares clocks with DSP and that might be ther reason it doesn't work n 3.1021:45
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freemangordonPali: I was thinking to ask on #linux-omap, but I saw your friend (fbalbi) there and gave up :D21:46
Palinow he finally included both patches :-)21:47
freemangordonyeah :D21:47
Paliand also sent wl1251 fw to public :-)21:47
freemangordonyep, saw that on LKML21:47
freemangordonhowever, SSI still doesn't work :(21:48
DocScrutinizer05OMG, US teenager girls sending an average of 135 SMS each day21:49
keriohow does kernel development on rx51 even work? is there some dude who tests every version?21:49
DocScrutinizer05ideally not only one guy21:49
Palielinux.org/N90021:49
freemangordonthough ^^^ is a bit oprimistic :)21:50
freemangordon*optimistic21:50
useretailok, i've backed up everything.. what do u suggest to install: u-boot or maybe nolo?21:50
kerioyeah but how do you test everything?21:50
freemangordonkerio: boot to maemo?21:50
kerioon linux 3? :o21:50
freemangordon3.12 rc121:50
keriowhy am i not running 3.12rc1 then?21:51
kerioD:21:51
freemangordonyou're too young for that :P21:51
useretailis it safe to install u-boot using apt-get install u-boot-flasher ?21:52
useretaili'm using power-kernel21:53
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Paliyes21:57
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Paliit will ask you if you want to flash uboot into nand21:58
Paliaccept it21:58
Paliand install also package kernel-power-bootimg21:58
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useretaildamn, i didn't installed kernel-power-bootimg.. where do i have to put zImage-2.6.28.10-power52 so u-boot could boot it?22:03
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Paliyou need to put it to /boot/ and also need to put item file to /etc/bootmenu.d/ and also run script u-boot-update-bootmenu22:05
useretaili rebooted already.. atached kernel doesn't boot, so the only option for me is eMMC (i don't have SD card).. where i have to put the image on eMMC to boot temporarily?22:08
keriouseretail: fwiw22:08
kerioyou can just ramload kernel-power22:08
kerioit's probably easier22:08
kerioi assume you have access to a computer22:09
kerioalso how are you going to put stuff in the emmc?22:09
useretailyeah :)22:09
Paliuse: flasher-3.5 -k zImage -l -b22:09
kerioPali: do you need a cmdline?22:09
Palino22:09
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keriois it compiled in the kernel or is it a NOLO default?22:09
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Paliin kernel22:09
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useretailkerio: i was going to boot rescueOS22:13
keriofair enough22:14
Paliuse above flasher command for booting kernel22:15
Paliediting uboot files without maemo is hard22:15
kerio*without mkimage22:15
keriowhich, to be fair, should be in every distro's repos22:15
Palino, you need also u-boot-update-bootmenu22:16
Paliand generate bootmenu file which is stored in MyDocs22:16
Palior you can transfer uimage to emmc/sd and use uboot console for loading and booting22:17
keriou-boot-update-bootmenu is a shellscript though22:17
Palibut loading and booting kernel is easier from flasher22:17
Paliwhy to complicate it?22:17
keriooh ofc22:17
Paliu-boot-update-bootmenu expect maemo system...22:18
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Pali$ flasher-3.5 -k zImage -l -b22:18
Paliand then installing kernel-power-bootimg22:18
useretailPali: ok, this method doesn't work for my n900.. it starts to boot (i see 5 dots blinking) but after that it power offs22:19
Palidid you used correct zimage file?22:19
useretaili believe so: zImage-2.6.28.10-power5222:19
Paliok22:20
Paliif yes, then you have problem in maemo22:20
Palinot in kernel22:20
Paliif you cannot boot maemo from attached kernel and also with power kernel, you need to reflash device22:20
useretaili noticed that i couldn't boot the phone with usb attached22:21
useretail*earlier22:21
Paliflasher-3.5 -R22:21
Paliand then load and boot kernel22:21
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Pali-R reboot NOLO to normal bootable mode22:22
Pali(it can fix charger and some funny other errors)22:22
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useretailnothing.. still powers off22:31
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Palimake sure you have charged battery22:35
Paliand if kernel-power and also nokia kernel not booting, you need to reflash phone22:35
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Sc0rpiusI REALLY need an app to upload pictures somewhere and copy the link to the clipboard22:40
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sixwheeledbeast~seen M4rtinK23:03
infobotm4rtink <~M4rtinK@ip-89-177-124-88.net.upcbroadband.cz> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 21h 36m 41s ago, saying: 'rZr: just in case - check the AGPS server address'.23:03
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useretailso this worked: flasher-3.5 -k zImage-2.6.28.10-power52 --flash-only=kernel -f -R23:29
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useretailno more experiments for today lol23:30
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Paliuseretail: do not forget to install kernel-power-bootimg23:32
useretaildo i need it? i mean i don't have uboot anymore23:33
Paliyou have installed some uboot packages, right?23:34
useretailyep, i was going to purge everything23:34
Paliok23:35
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DocScrutinizer05Sc0rpius: KDE pastebin widget23:59
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