IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2013-09-19

dos1actually, it's just a preparation for next years April Fools, but shhh, you haven't heard it from me!00:00
DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: join the movement, spread the word00:00
r00t|homewell, it's a nice idea, but sorry, it doesn't seem realistic to me...00:00
DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: sorry, you haven't seen the whole picture then00:00
dos1r00t|home: what I like in this project is that it's massively basing on work which was already done00:01
r00t|homei'd be in at the 300eur price point maybe, tell me when you found the 9999 other buyers00:01
dos1either for GTA04 or N90000:01
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus and myself are no spleeny schoolkids. We know our shite00:01
dos1which makes it really realistic, at least in my eyes00:01
dos1much more realistic than any other idea for similar community-based device I've ever heard00:02
DocScrutinizer05indeed GTA04 been WAAAY less realistic00:02
DocScrutinizer05still it became reality00:02
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dos1yup, I was skeptical on the initial announcements, even if there were already working Openmoko Beagle Hybrid boards00:03
SysaxedDocScrutinizer05: how would spreading the word help?00:03
DocScrutinizer05compared to GTA04 Neo900 is a walk in the park, as hard as eating the cake00:03
dos1(the base for GTA04 - modified BeagleBoard to be able to use GTA02 case)00:03
dos1and indeed it worked in the end00:04
dos1so i'm pretty optimistic with Neo900, Goldelico can make wonders :)00:04
dos1even if 99% of the world population won't ever hear of them nor be interested in what they do00:05
DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: it will increase the number of preorders, and that's the crux of the bisquit in the end - if we can get sufficient number of preorders00:05
dos1they still do miracles for own small niche, and I'm very thankful00:05
infobotdos1 meant: they still do miracles for our small niche, and I'm very thankful00:05
SysaxedDocScrutinizer05: sufficient number of preorders = ?00:06
Sysaxedthat's very easy00:06
DocScrutinizer05a ridiculous modest two hundred00:06
r00t|homei'm just questioning the size of the market / achieveable price... i'm not buying a phone for many 100 euros... be it an iphone or a linux phone...00:06
DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: then don't worry00:06
SysaxedDocScrutinizer05: and what is the price?00:07
SysaxedDocScrutinizer05: which page?00:07
DocScrutinizer05post # 100:07
dos1r00t|home: we aim for 200 buyers. I don't think it's impossible to achieve.00:08
DocScrutinizer05for 200 units we hope to reach 700EUR sales price00:08
Sysaxed700€ ... oh...00:08
r00t|homedos1: that's 600eur per device then, yeah?00:08
dos1if more will come, then great! even awesome! but we'll be already successful with just 20000:08
DocScrutinizer05if we can get 2000 units sold, it will already be remarkably cheaper00:08
r00t|homewell, good luck to you00:09
DocScrutinizer05N900 needed no luck when they started rollout at 599EUR00:09
dos1there are circa 300 GTA04s there sold for ~600EUR00:10
DocScrutinizer05we don't aim to be better and cheaper than they were00:10
Sysaxedwell, there's no way I can buy a phone for 700€ in near future, even considering the fact that n900 is my wife00:10
r00t|homei bought my first for 150 and the next for 100... maybe it's just me...00:10
DocScrutinizer05I once bought a rolls royce for 50 bucks00:10
DocScrutinizer05not really00:11
DocScrutinizer05it was too expensive00:11
r00t|homeSysaxed: i probably wouldn't even if i could00:11
dos1sure, it's expensive and not everyone will be able or even want to spend such amount of money for such phone00:11
DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: then pretty please stop worrying00:11
dos1we're perfectly aware of that00:11
Sysaxedno, I'd probably kill for that phone00:11
Sysaxedbut not 700€, sorry :\00:12
dos1but there's little we can do with that, except getting more orders00:12
r00t|homeSysaxed: so you'd kill for 700eur? give me your bank account and where i can send the name00:12
Sysaxedr00t|home: if only you send me Neo900 right now :)00:12
Sysaxedand if we aim for 500 preorders, how high would be the price?00:13
r00t|homeSysaxed: let's get bcak to this when production starts00:14
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r00t|homeSysaxed: see the table in the tmo thread00:14
DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: not much difference yet00:14
dos1the table is about current GTA0400:14
r00t|home(even if that's for gta04)00:14
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DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: magnitudes of 10 make a difference, not exponents of 200:14
dos1there will be some differences - for sure Neo900 will be a bit more expensive than GTA0400:15
DocScrutinizer05quite a bit00:15
DocScrutinizer05case crap costs 150 bucks00:15
Sysaxed200 preorders is quite easy, look, there are 233 people in this chat.. if only the price was a little lower00:15
DocScrutinizer05cam alone costs 5000:16
Sysaxedcase crap?00:16
r00t|homewell, again, good luck to you, but i personally don't think there's a large enough market for that device, even if it's a neat idea00:16
Sysaxeduhhh, 150 for the case?00:16
r00t|homeSysaxed: stuff beyond the pcb00:16
RiDDocScrutinizer05 case is 150 bucks?00:16
dos1I think it includes whole front panel00:16
DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: well, again, thanks for your notion, stop worrying!00:16
dos1which is left unchanged for Neo90000:16
DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: it's conceived as negativism here00:17
DocScrutinizer05RiD: case, screen, digitizer, speakers, antennae....00:17
dos1maybe except getting rid of Nokia logo ;)00:17
RiDwoah that's expensive00:18
RiDIs it different fron the normal N900 one?00:18
r00t|homedos1: you probably can arrange to fix this... (missing double-slash in redirect target for the gta04 order link): => Location: https:/
infoboti guess neo900 is at, or at
RiDI understand that you can't put NOKIA on the bezel00:19
dos1get only the board and upgrade your current N900 for a cheaper option :)00:19
RiDOh I see the name now00:19
r00t|homedos1: more like fix one of those broken n900s00:19
dos1see, even cheaper00:20
RiDMine is in perfect condition, not a single scratch00:20
RiDwho gives 500€ for it00:20
dos1r00t|home: try to use some contact links from that page, I'm not related to Goldelico by any way00:20
dos1other than being fan of them ;)00:20
DocScrutinizer05seeya, dudes, I got some _real_ work to do00:20
r00t|homedos1: i don't care enough to spend that much time on it00:21
RiDjoke aside, I can't wait to see the result (though I won't be able to buy one.. running $hort on ca$h)00:21
r00t|homewould be great if you had good marketing and could get the device as hyped as the raspberry pi... :D00:24
dos1Neo900 for $15? yeah, why not! :D00:25
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DocScrutinizer05as hyped as the TI zoom-2 (which never came with phone function since TI messed up the RoHS, but nevertheless cost ~1200$)?00:30
DocScrutinizer05if Nokia hadn't announced the N900, I had bought a zoom-II and retrofitted a modem to it00:31
DocScrutinizer05despite the incredibly insane MMC slot00:32
DocScrutinizer05standard size MMC but then, since standard size is too large, it protrudes like 15mm from the case00:33
DocScrutinizer05you wouldn't want to carry such thing with MMC inserted00:34
DocScrutinizer05and - to be honest - we can't do *anything* about the price of Neo900 since pretty simple we don't earn a pence on them00:43
DocScrutinizer05if we weren't such suckers, we would need to sell them for at least twice the price00:43
DocScrutinizer05now you know the cruel truth about this project00:43
DocScrutinizer05(twice) wich would put the Neo900 absolutely on par with similar commercial projects like e.g. zoom00:45
DocScrutinizer05though TI could afford to ask for less than they tjhemselves pay for the BOM. But they don't do it, not even they do00:46
DocScrutinizer05dos1: looks like a start. I will give it a thorough read and then forward it to GA00:48
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: ^^^00:49
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: maybe you already wanna have a look (you know, /.)00:49
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DocScrutinizer05 CM goes commercial01:15
DocScrutinizer05not that anybody in here really cares a lot about CM, right?01:15
DocScrutinizer05ooh, Cyanogen mod, Android01:16
RiDits OK01:20
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, want me to edit it?01:24
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: if you could come up with a similar story (or slightly or even massively changed one) that sounds good, is an eyecatcher and could make it to a /. post, that would be awesome01:26
DocScrutinizer05the more buzzwords (for aunt google and the occasional reader) the better01:27
GeneralAntillesOK, I'll work on it tonight or tomorrow.01:29
DocScrutinizer05many thanks :-)01:29
DocScrutinizer05I love your writing style, so I'm sure it will be worth waiting for it, even when it will be only 3 sentences maybe01:30
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dos1GeneralAntilles: yeah, feel free to massively edit it out, it's just a quick draft01:41
dos1GeneralAntilles: you may also note somehow that this "high hackability" is not only about software, but about hardware too01:42
GeneralAntillesHaha. High praise, DocScrutinizer05, thanks. :P01:42
GeneralAntillesdos1, OK. I think I'll probably start from some main bullet points and work from there.01:42
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dos1GeneralAntilles: there is some text on that may be useful for listing those bullet points01:44
dos1hmm, well, now I reread last msg and I feel like Cpt. Obvious :)01:46
dos1too much simplex tables I guess01:47
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FIQwhy on earth is music files copied over from wherever they are to .local/share/sounds if used as ringtunes?02:37
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keriobecause of reasons02:39
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FIQisn't that kinda silly?02:41
FIQsay if you decide to have MBs of files as tunes (without knowing about this behaviour) and then you wonder why something is taking up 30MB of file size for unnecessary copes02:42
FIQI don't see the reason.. oh well02:42
dos1well, if you use something that's on microsd, and then you remove/replace it02:42
dos1or move/delete the file wherever it is02:43
dos1it wouldn't have a ringtone to play02:43
dos1so that's some reason02:43
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jonwilIt also converts it into a wav file02:55
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dos1i guess that's for performance reasons02:59
dos1in FSO/SHR once we had full gstreamer support for lots of formats, even SID03:00
dos1unfortunately, on Freerunner it was casing horrible lags when starting/stoping ringtone playback03:01
dos1when we switched to just simple wav playback, it was much better03:02
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DocScrutinizer05FIQ: the reason is pretty simple: a) you never would know if the uSD (or content of eMMC on that behalf) is still there when you need a ringtone to play it back, and b) the files get converted to .wav *always*, to save the CPU overhead and thus delay for loading the mp3/whatever decoder and then decode the song03:24
DocScrutinizer05dang, maybe I should revert to reading backscroll bottom-up instead of top-down03:25
* DocScrutinizer05 feels stupid03:25
DocScrutinizer05dos1: and who suggested that? who? eh?? ;-P03:26
DocScrutinizer05iirc I didn't even know sh*t about fremantle at large back when03:28
dos1DocScrutinizer05: still using arkanoid ringtone? ;)03:29
DocScrutinizer05well, when I'd boot up GTA02 I bet it still would do03:30
DocScrutinizer05I changed to though, some 4..5y ago03:34
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jonwilI have a part cut out of this as my ringtone :)03:50
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Macerwindows rt doesnt support bt dun or adhoc07:51
Macerit's android v2.007:52
Macercan someone please help me out with configuring bt pan in maemo?07:53
Macerfor the life of me i cant figure it out lol07:53
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Macerfrom 201007:56
natsukao_my nokia 770' lcd is full of signs07:59
natsukao_do you know where can i find lcd for replacement ?07:59
Macerwell. seems my login isnt working08:01
Macercant click on register in microb either. blah08:01
psycho_oreosThe last I recall, one couldn't register via microB.08:02
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Macernobody sees how awesomely bad that is? :)08:02
psycho_oreosAs for 770's LCD replacement screen I'm not sure. Even Ebay would be a far fetched idea.08:03 cant register via maemo hehe08:03
Macerthat like not being able to use gmail in chrome08:03
psycho_oreosI've filed a bug for it upon hearing someone was talking about it. I've tried it myself and it was true hence I filed a bug. I have yet to hear any updates.08:03
Macerah well[A08:05
Macerim going to try to see if i can get bt pan working08:05
Macerwish mobilehotspot supported it08:05
MacerDisablePlugins = network,hal08:08
psycho_oreosIt is a little ironic thinking about it. I recall there was a patent war with I think it was adhoc on mobile devices. It was somewhat the reason that it forced Google to use proper AP mode for wifi hot spot and not adhoc. If such were the case, then it would be ironic for windows to not support adhoc afterall it owns a fair proportion of nokia anyway.08:08
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natsukao_any other person has had my own problem with lcd's nokia 770 ?08:11
Macerheh well...08:11
Macerim kind of stuck08:11
natsukao_an lcd full of signs after 7 years08:11
Macerim trying to figure out how to configure pan in maemo08:11
Macerand documentation is scarce08:12
Maceri guess maemo/n900 has to be the "server"08:12
Macerbut there is no information on how to configure it so other devices can hook up to it :(08:12
psycho_oreosnatsukao_, maybe on the forums but no guarantees.08:16
psycho_oreosMacer, sounds like whoever made BT PAN work didn't want to document it. :p a good chance for you to step up to the challenge and to write a nice wiki entry for it.08:17
Macerif i can figure it out i will08:17
natsukao_anyone knows which is the builder of that lcd ?08:17
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Macerapparently it is done in /etc/bluetooth/main.conf08:17
Macernatsukao_: ebay a new one08:17
natsukao_thanks psycho_oeros08:17
natsukao_thanks macer08:18
Macerpsycho_oreos: i guess it is more a bluetoothd thing than a maemo thing08:18
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Maceryou have to  enale bluetooth pan... or at lease un-disable it08:19
psycho_oreosMacer, still it needs documenting, no? :)08:19
Macerthen configure soeme sort of network08:19
Maceryeah but i need to figure out how to do it first :)08:20
Maceri will document it if i can08:20
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natsukaomy shell crashed, while i was setting up a background08:21
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DocScrutinizer05psycho_oreos: bug number? (registration)08:26
Macermaybe that will be better to use08:27
Macerwhat is phonet008:28
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer05, crap, I'm searching for that now. I had it on my laptop (till it died).08:29
natsukaois there the possibility to bypass that shit of flash on the browser ?08:29
DocScrutinizer05Macer: nothing you want to know08:30
natsukaothat flash is not anymore supported, it was a version for nokia 770, and it does not exists nymore for nokia 77008:30
MacerDocScrutinizer05:    bridge_ports eth008:30
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer05, <-- I don't have any maemo devices to test (for now...)08:30
povbot_Bug 12703: Unable to register on forums.08:30
Macerwhen creating a bridge to pan tether08:30
* DocScrutinizer05 talks some ISI to Macer08:31
Maceri would assume i am using gprs008:31
Maceras the port?08:31
natsukaoit was developed just for nokia, and never was available an update, so that flash, is stopped to an old version08:31
Macerim reading a debian guide on how to configure a pan server08:31
DocScrutinizer05gprs0 sounds like a proper internet access NIC08:31
Macertrying to figure this out08:32
Macerso i can document it for the poor saps like myself who have a surface08:32
DocScrutinizer05phonet0 is some gibberish you for sure don't want to learn details about08:32
Maceror android tablet08:32
natsukaoit has not sense to have a dated version of flash, that is not anymore possible to use, because unsupported08:32
Macerwhich both only support bt pan and infrastructure  mode08:32
natsukaohot to remove it ?08:32
MacerDocScrutinizer05: ok08:32
Macerlet me keep trying this out08:32
psycho_oreosnatsukao, I sort of doubt its possible to bypass. On N900 (I know, completely different and somewhat irrelevant). It is possible to tweak flash version and there was a leaked flash player available. Though for 770 it may seem somewhat unlikely.08:33
natsukaowell, good idea of adobe and nokia08:33
natsukaois there a way to install a sort of Tor for nokia 770 ?08:35
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natsukaoi know is available Tor for Nokia 90008:35
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DocScrutinizer05Macer: ping -I gprs0 should work08:36
DocScrutinizer05Macer: long as you're actually connected via GPRS to internet08:36
MacerDocScrutinizer05: i see08:37
psycho_oreosI guess you might need to use scratchbox and compile it for 770 by hand natsukao. Your best bet for all your 770 issues would probably be best targeted at forums. I don't think there are many active 770 owners here on IRC.08:37
Macerit does08:37
Macerbut i dont understand how you are supposed to bridge bnep008:37
Macerwhen bnep0 is a virtual device that pops up after a device tries to network to it08:38
DocScrutinizer05err, it uses pnatd in a way, afaik08:38
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DocScrutinizer05or nope, wait#08:38
DocScrutinizer05prolly socat can do the trick?08:38
Macerthe maemo documentation is useless for this heh08:38
Macerthere is really not much out there08:39
Macerjust small mentions of pan and ancient wikis08:39
DocScrutinizer05sorry, no PAN devices here to test08:39
DocScrutinizer05aiui simply piping with socat between bnep and gprs should work, eh?08:40
Macerno idea how to do that08:40
DocScrutinizer05poor man's bridge08:40
Macermy knowledge in this area is limited08:40
Macerim reading debian docs08:41
Macersince that is the closest distro to maemo08:41
DocScrutinizer05man socat08:41
DocScrutinizer05~man socat08:41
infobotNo manual entry for socat08:41
DocScrutinizer05~man date08:41
infobotNo manual entry for date08:41
DocScrutinizer05~literal man xx08:42
infobotNo manual entry for xx08:42
DocScrutinizer05~literal man (.?)08:42
infobotNo manual entry for (.?)08:42
DocScrutinizer05f u infobot08:42
Maceri dont see socat08:42
Maceris it part of a pkg?08:42
DocScrutinizer05socat? hmm08:42
DocScrutinizer05~dinfo socat08:43
infobotsocat: (multipurpose relay for bidirectional data transfer), section net, is extra. Version: (sid), Packaged size: 374 kB, Installed size: 891 kB08:43
Maceris it in devel?08:43
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Maceri added that bottom section to see if i can get a bridge going08:45
Macerhopefully it doesnt bork my gprs0 heh08:46
FIQ~man man08:46
infobotNo manual entry for man08:46
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psycho_oreos~man woman08:48
infobotNo manual entry for woman08:48
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys man08:48
infobotFactoid search of 'man' by key (17 of 635): <b>a.h.: artificial humanoid</b> ;; and pacman ;; babelfish en th hanuman ;; blind man ;; command list ;; country oman ;; dickman ;; fman ;; gazman ;; gnome2 mini commander ;; human response time ;; humans ;; i've only added one command, and it ;; jmanv ;; kaiman ;; kzacman ;; manson.08:48
DocScrutinizer05~factinfo man08:49
infobotman -- last modified at Tue Apr 18 08:09:56 2006 by Tem!; it has been requested 21 times, last by youtah at Thu Jul 25 18:47:28 2013.08:49
infobotTem and Tain are the man.08:49
natsukaoseems that Nokia altered the linux kernel for nokia 77008:49
DocScrutinizer05~literal man (.?)08:49
infobotNo manual entry for (.?)08:49
DocScrutinizer05~literal cmd: man (.?)08:50
psycho_oreosI guess nokia would have for every other devices nokia produces running on linux platform.08:50
* psycho_oreos still chuckles at that lkml link.08:50
psycho_oreosPatch contains two lines... >> needs to be split >> new email new patch >> wtf.. two lines with the latter additional line being <CR><LF> and only that.08:52
Macerwhat pkg is brctl a part of?08:52
natsukao Tor on Nokia Internet Tablet?08:52
Macer~dinfo brctl08:53
* Macer looks around08:54
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natsukaowhere is possible to buy Torx screw for Nokia 770 ?08:56
DocScrutinizer05err, that should be available in fleabay08:57
DocScrutinizer05~dfind brctl08:58
infobotDebian Search of 'brctl' (4 of 7): (/sbin/brctl) in net/bridge-utils ;; (/usr/share/selinux/mls/brctl.pp) in admin/selinux-policy-mls ;; (/usr/share/selinux/default/brctl.pp) in admin/selinux-policy-default ;; (/usr/share/zsh/functions/Completion/Linux/_brctl) in shells/zsh-common.08:58
DocScrutinizer05~dfind 5 brctl08:58
infobotDebian Package/File/Desc Search of '5 brctl' returned no results.08:58
psycho_oreosDunno if this helps (BT PAN):
infoboti guess pkg is
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natsukaois there in any repository Tor for nokia 770 ?09:05
Maceri thought that was broken09:07
natsukaoi found many packages named Tor, anyone knows, which is the latest version for nokia 770 ?09:08
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psycho_oreosIn that link you provided, none are probably suitable for 770.09:12
FIQlol the phonebloks video got 12mil views now09:14
psycho_oreosnatsukao, maybe from
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Macer ifconfig bnep0 down09:26
Macerifconfig: SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device09:26
Macer+ ifconfig bnep0 up09:26
Maceri am at a loss09:31
Maceri need to figure out how to get rt to see this n900 as a pan device09:31
Macerso it will detect the profile and see it as such09:32
Maceri give up for now. spent enough time on it09:32
natsukaonow my tablet nokia 770, is chargin the battery09:33
natsukaoi found all these Tor packages, but i don't undestand why one of these does not work :-(
Macerbecause fremantle wont run on n77009:35
natsukaowhois fremantle ?09:35
Maceri doubt you will even find a functional tor method on n77009:36
Maceryou may have better luck finding another os to use09:36
psycho_oreosfremantle is the codename for N900.09:36
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FIQthe codename for N900 is RX-5109:37
natsukaoi left many years ago, when i decided to turn  back to i38609:37
FIQfremantle is the os though09:37
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natsukaothe fact is that GNU/linux is totally boxed09:37
psycho_oreosWhoops, my bad.. Well in that case fremantle is the codename for Maemo 5. :>09:37
natsukaoi use on my laptop GNU/linux gNewSense Deltah 2.3, kernel linux, version 2.6.24-3209:39
natsukaoand next one will we GNU/linux gNewSense 309:39
psycho_oreoslinux kernel version 2.6.24? o.O09:39
natsukaono, no, i am using 2.6.24-3209:39
psycho_oreosIt's still based on 2.6 architecture.09:40
FIQis that a problem?09:40
psycho_oreosNo, just old (at least to me).09:40
FIQoh yeah, 3.x has been around for a while09:40
natsukaoi don't know what is Flash, and how to support it, i got Vidalia control Panel and in bundle FireFox09:41
FIQbut 2.6 is recent enough to not be that odd to run I think09:41
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FIQhell, I've seen a few cases of 2.409:41
FIQbut that's rare09:41
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FIQas that kernel is... old09:41
natsukaowhen starts FireFox, it has installed the plug-in NO-SCRIPT, GNU GPL, which works fine on youtube and similar ones09:42
psycho_oreosI only know from the 802.11 aspect, 2.6 kernel tree is ancient.09:42
natsukaodoes not matter ancient or new, it is important the support09:43
natsukaoand sincerely don't like that GUI such as Ubuntu09:43
FIQyou can always use another desktop environment you know09:44
natsukaoi love GUI's such CDE used on the old Sun Microsytems09:44
psycho_oreosYou can force CLI on ubuntu for instance. It's not like on ubuntu without GUI it'll die.09:44
natsukaofor me it's just enough GNU/linux gNewSense 3, that is totally new09:45
psycho_oreosThere are other (to me more advanced) distros like arch, gentoo and slackware in which you can pretty much setup to forgo GUI completely (if you wish).09:45
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natsukaothose are non free software distributions09:46
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psycho_oreosThe distro itself is mixed, if you're talking about being strict GNU/GPL sense.09:47
psycho_oreosheck even maemo is pretty much non-free. There are many closed bits as well.09:47
FIQI don't get this discussion...09:48
natsukaoi support only free software distributions such as: GNU/linux Blag; GNU/linux Dragora; GNU/linux Dynebolic; GNU/linux gNewSense; GNU/linux Musix; GNU/linux Parabola; GNU/linux Trisquel; GNU/linux Ututo09:48
FIQand I've never heard of gNewSense09:48
natsukaoi am a supporter in FSF.ORG09:48
FIQ...or any of these either09:48
FIQok I've heard of dragora but didn't know the details09:48
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FIQnothing @ other distros09:49
* DocScrutinizer05 couldn't bother less09:49
DocScrutinizer05after all a distro is... a distro09:49
DocScrutinizer05unless it's maemo with its friggin metapackage concept09:49
psycho_oreosSome people can be very strict on the stuff distro packages.09:49
FIQDocScrutinizer05: :D @ maemo09:50
* DocScrutinizer05 goes to blacklist all distros that ship poettering stuff ;-P09:50
natsukaoa) and b)
FIQnever really bothered to understand how it worked or what it was @ metapackage whatever09:50
FIQprobably I wont try to either as it seems hated09:51
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DocScrutinizer05natsukao: do you pray to RMS every morning?09:51
natsukaoi am not telling you to download, but to read09:51
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DocScrutinizer05thanks, I heard about that stuff before09:52
psycho_oreosI can only imagine metapackages are just packages in which one installs and it installs a whole bunch of other dependencies. Like ubuntu's apt-get install build-essential which installs, gcc, make, etc.09:52
FIQwell then maemo isn't really alone, is it? :P09:52
DocScrutinizer05psycho_oreos: exactly09:52
DocScrutinizer05now you understood maemo09:52
FIQif ubuntu also uses something similar to maemo-fremantle-*-pr09:52
psycho_oreosYeah I've heard of it, debian also tinkered with GNU/Hurd (as in the kernel itself as well). Though its progress is slow.09:52
DocScrutinizer05maemo is ONE huge metapackage09:52
natsukaobut like me what i am doing, i started 12 years ago, asking infos about Free Software09:53
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer05, hehe I sorta understood about it sometime ago :D09:53
natsukaonow i write about Free Software and hackers ethic09:53
DocScrutinizer05hah, writing about my ethics09:53
FIQnatsukao: seems you're a big follow of rms ideals09:53
FIQ*sounds like09:53
natsukaoyes, sure09:54
natsukaoand i find well so09:54
DocScrutinizer05RMS sometimes starts to smell a little dusty09:54
psycho_oreosBut then wouldn't owning 770 for instance be unethical as it contains non-FSF packages?09:54
FIQ[08:47:45] <psycho_oreos> heck even maemo is pretty much non-free. There are many closed bits as well.09:55
natsukaoi known him 7 years ago, i was to dinner with him and his friend in Rome (Italy), located near Ara Pacis restaurant09:55
FIQmaemo is even worse than those commonly used non free dists09:55
psycho_oreosRather non-FSF approved packages/modules/etc.09:55
FIQas, to even work at all, maemo needs several closed source stuff09:55
FIQwhile on common desktop distros, you at least have access to the source of everything essential for the os to run09:56
DocScrutinizer05if it was for RMS, OpenMoko never hat rolled out a single device. It would've been impossible09:56
FIQand (most) applications for it09:56
natsukaolast time in 2010 i went with RMS, Dora Scilipoti, Juan Carlos Gentile, to Garbatella, Rome, Italy, where we take our dinner with other 15 people09:56
psycho_oreosCourtesy of nokia and capitalism's ethics of course FIQ.09:57
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natsukaoand infact Nokia failed09:57
FIQnokia is a shell of its' former self09:57
natsukaoah ah ah09:57
FIQclearly a result of bundling closed stuff in maemo09:57
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer05, or linux kernel itself being so well advanced with contributors from many private sectors.09:57
natsukaocorporations have not ethic09:58
FIQand totally not a result of an idiot CEO09:58
natsukaoi am not CEO of nobody09:58
FIQI wasn't talking about you09:58
FIQbut about elop09:59
natsukaoi am one between many, i have President, Principal09:59
DocScrutinizer05and RMs and friends think they can *force* hw manufs to disclose intellectual property, via GPL tricks09:59
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natsukaoto the contrary i inform you that i was invited from one woman of the staff of FSF.ORG (Libby Reinish), to the latest 30^th GNU Anniversary10:00
natsukaoi can't start at the moment, but i'll go in the future:
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natsukaoyou have not yet understood that i agree with that ideas : developing software as was to the MIT and other Universities in the rest of the America, when was possible to save something, again, don't like me the new way to see Informatics, and people which i agree are few in the world, i am not young such you, i am 41 y.o.10:05
DocScrutinizer05I can't talk honest with a guy who thinks embedded needs a dedicated flashrom and mc to load a few kB of initialization data into a peripheral chip, since he considers it a crime to store and move that data on the linux APE10:06
divVerent08:59:14 DocScrutinizer05 | and RMs and friends think they can *force* hw manufs to disclose10:06
divVerent                          | intellectual property, via GPL tricks10:06
divVerentthey think - and rightly so - that they can force them to release source IF they release binary10:06
divVerentbut any manufacturer is free to not support Linux10:06
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divVerentalthough they actually are somewhat wrong on this, given how the Linux guys changed the license a bit10:07
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divVerentthere is general agreement that binary modules now ARE allowed if they don't use any EXPORT_GPL symbols10:07
natsukaoi think that nokia was boxed, and a more free distribution could save it, now we got a pice of old hardware between the fingers10:07
divVerentso Stallman has no chance enforcing this any more10:07
DocScrutinizer05he never had10:07
divVerentalso, most hardware can - at least in theory - also supported without kernel modules. No chance then either.10:07
natsukaoinfact, RMS does not need to enforce on me, i agree totally10:08
divVerentRegarding kernel modules, he did.10:08
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divVerentIf you assume the linking restriction in the GPL is valid at all10:08
divVerentif not, GPL and LGPL are 100% equivalent10:08
natsukaoLGPL for libraries,10:08
divVerentLGPL is lesser GPL10:08
divVerentit's basically a spinoff of the GPL that allows dynamic linking10:08
divVerentby essentially removing the linking restriction of the GPL if the linking is dynamic10:09
divVerentso if the linking restriction in the GPL is invalid to begin with10:09
divVerentthen GPL == LGPL10:09
divVerentif only it were that easy to prove whether P = NP...10:09
DocScrutinizer05I wanna see Stallman and FSF prove "linking" to a a hw manuf who offers a driver.ko10:10
divVerentDocScrutinizer05: that's the next fun part10:10
divVerentjust supplying the .ko isn't linking10:10
natsukaoyou must be grateful to RMS, without GNU'S Not Unix Project, LTB, could not develop linux kernel10:10
divVerentbut putting it on the same device and loading it at bootup is10:10
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divVerentthe chip vendor would have a problem therefore10:10
divVerent*no problem10:10
divVerentbut the device manufacturer would10:10
divVerentalthough there are generally accepted loopholes for that too (thanks, nvidia010:10
divVerente.g. doing the module link at boot time :)10:11
divVerentprovide a set of .o files, and generate the .ko at boot... and it all becomes moot too10:11
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DocScrutinizer05the whole idea is BS10:11
divVerentthen tell that to Stallman, or a court10:11
divVerentI don't like the linking restriction in the GPL either10:11
divVerentbut it is there10:11
divVerentand I would indeed like to be decided once and for all whether it is valid or not10:11
divVerenttoo bad THIS hasn't gone to court ever before10:12
divVerentmaybe one can shoot it down as a "surprising clause"10:12
natsukaothere is not any restriction is GPL10:12
divVerentas a library is MADE for linking to it10:12
FIQ[09:09:56] <divVerent> if only it were that easy to prove whether P = NP...10:12
divVerentnatsukao: there actually is10:13
divVerentif you ship a program TOGETHER with its libraries, you are creating a combined work10:13
natsukaoWhat is Free Software? What is Free Software?10:13
divVerentif they're separate packages, no license can stop you ;)10:13
DocScrutinizer05tbh I don't give a f*ck if it's legal or not, if RMS would indeed manage to force hw manufs to not provide drivers for linux anymore since they can't do that, I rather kick RMS' ass than blame any munuf10:13
FIQ[09:10:22] <natsukao> you must be grateful to RMS, without GNU'S Not Unix Project, LTB, could not develop linux kernel10:13
natsukao“Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”.10:13
FIQin fact, he could just have used another variant of C not relying on GCC10:14
natsukaoFree software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:10:14
psycho_oreosFSF afaik provided userland stuff.. Linus Torvalds was the one that wrote the kernel.10:14
natsukaoThe freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).10:14
natsukaoThe freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.10:14
DocScrutinizer05natsukao: please stop spreading truism10:14
psycho_oreosWithout userland, kernel would be useless.. without kernel userland is redundant. Same diff.10:14
natsukaoThe freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).10:14
natsukaoThe freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.10:14
DocScrutinizer05are you ready?10:15
natsukaowhere is the restriction are speaking about ?10:15
natsukaoyou are free to use GPLv2, or if you want later yo can use GPLv3, nobody is forcing to use GPL Licenses10:16
FIQnatsukao: are you a missioner sent by rms to convert people into his religion?10:16
FIQbecause your reasoning principe is very similar10:16
natsukaobut anyone is free to choce the license he prefeers:
DocScrutinizer05and nobody here needs lessons about GPL and the philosophy behind it10:17
psycho_oreosBesides, #maemo was never really about FSF :p10:17
natsukaostudies on licenses where done with RMS and Eben Moglen, Professor Law to the University and attorney in FSF.ORG10:17
psycho_oreosIf we're all FSF followers, we'd be cursed for using maemo products.10:18
DocScrutinizer05natsukao: please stop spamming the channel with irrelevant statements and factoids10:18
DocScrutinizer05we all know the internet and how to google10:18
FIQI don't have anything against rms or his ideals, but the way he (at least used to) force it into people isn't likable10:18
FIQand now you're doing that10:18
natsukaoso before to speak about licenses, think that attorneys, worked for the respect of software, developed from a community, so that a corporation can't modify and use for itself, as did Cisc Systems, when finished in Court for violations of GPL10:19
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DocScrutinizer05take it to #fsf, preach to the choir there please, not here10:22
DocScrutinizer05thinking about that project to actually place a small microcontroller and a muxer and a SPI flashrom on GTA04, to make RMS happy regarding WLAN module firmware upload during boot which been considered violating dunnowhat, I could still start headdesking10:25
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* DocScrutinizer05 gonna publish recipe for tea cookies, under TCL (tea cookie licence), and gonna sue everybody who dares to eat such cookies while drinking coffee instead of tea10:33
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FIQDocScrutinizer05: lol10:38
DocScrutinizer05if Nokia had used kernel driver module blobs to make maemo work on their devices, we were waaaaay better off now, since RE of a kernel module is way easier than RE of crappy .so10:40
DocScrutinizer05but thanks to Stallman who thinks he can force manufacturers to disclose their intellectual property that often is their only warranty for keeping their business model intact, we now have blobs all over the place and nobody any happier than a few years ago10:43
DocScrutinizer05and even worse: we (the hackers) have to use that hugest virus ever (from Redmond) now, to RE many hardware drivers that are no longer supported at all under linux10:46
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DocScrutinizer05and THATS a real PITA10:46
DocScrutinizer05I *maybe* would RE a driver for some hw I need to use, when it had a linux driver blob. I definitely won't install that wincrap on my machines to RE the windriver for that HW10:49
DocScrutinizer05not even when using cygwin ;-P10:49
DocScrutinizer05on a sidenote: Harald Welte is a friend of mine, I don't need lessons about what GPL does good for FOSS10:51
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divVerentyes, that IS true10:52
divVerentthere is a reason why many people prefer BSD licenses... the GPL just is going too far in some ways10:52
divVerentwhich is the very reason why Linus did this license change (the EXPORT_GPL story)10:52
DocScrutinizer05yep, exactly this story10:53
DocScrutinizer05gnu brainfart10:53
divVerentand I can't say whether EXPORT_GPL would stand in court10:57
divVerentbut it's a clear declaration of intention10:57
divVerentI actually would WANT the linking restriction of the GPL to fall10:57
divVerentif you WANT to be that protective, it doesn't really help either10:57
divVerentsee how Nokia worked around GPL10:57
divVerentyou need AGPL to effectively impose such restrictions10:57
divVerenttoo bad we never had any cases regarding GPL linking in courts10:58
divVerentthey were all about supplying the source for "unmodified" parts, or clearly combiend works10:58
divVerente.g. opaque router firmware blobs10:58
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DocScrutinizer05incl netfilters10:59
divVerentthe question is10:59
divVerenta party who was sued for netfilter use...10:59
divVerentwhat if they had compiled it as module only10:59
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divVerentand then released source of the modules only?10:59
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divVerentTHEN the linkage case could happen :P10:59
divVerentbut no sane company would do that11:00
divVerentthat clause is grey area from both sides11:00
divVerentit all stands on falls with whether a program linking to a lib becomes a combined work with the lib even if the linkage is dynamic11:00
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DocScrutinizer05it's 100% nonsensical and basically useless to achieve what it planned to achieve11:00
divVerentsome even believe that linking via is "illegal" but dlopen is "legal"11:00
divVerenteven though it's the same mechanism, just another time11:00
divVerentIMHO, if you go by the letter of the GPL, dlopen is just as illegal...11:01
divVerentbut the whole clause may just as well collapse when actually tried in court11:01
DocScrutinizer05or simple stupidity11:01
divVerentsimply by the judge saying "This isn't a combined work, and it's up to copyright, not a license, to define what a combined work is and what not"\11:01
divVerentlike, what if I made two licenses...11:02
divVerentone says "A can use B and the whole becomes a combined work"11:02
divVerentand other says11:02
divVerent"When A uses B, these two remain separate works"11:02
divVerentthe GPL is attempting to say the former11:03
divVerentbut everyone knows how grey this is, which is why it was never tried in court. Nobody wants to pay that risk.11:03
DocScrutinizer05honestly, this is nonsense. It targets at forbidding non-FOSS software on linux11:03
DocScrutinizer05I'd shpoot everybody successfully implementing such policy11:04
divVerente.g. what if the glibc were GPL?11:04
divVerentpersonally I adhere strictly to GPL in my projects where I can't avoid it... but don't like it11:04
divVerentactually, if glibc were GPL, it probably would get watered down that this doesn't apply to POSIX interfaces in the library :)11:04
divVerentjust like a GPL program can link to just fine11:05
divVerentEVEN if on the end user's system the libGL is nvidia's11:05
divVerentthat's generally accepted on the grounds that the libGL interface is a standard interface with multiple independent implementations11:05
DocScrutinizer05I'm absolutely OK with "normal" GPL. When I use GPL source and modify it, it must return to FOSS. But I will do the heck and let myself get forced to open up ACME-app just because it links to glibc (or any other lib)11:06
divVerente.g. FreeBSD and Solaris implement Linux syscalls11:06
divVerentsure, you then instead won't release it at all11:06
divVerentBTW, what is EVEN MORE annoying and what hit Xonotic once...11:06
divVerentwas libgmp changing from LGPL2 to LGPL311:07
divVerentwhile the engine Xonotic uses is under GPL211:07
divVerentwe were SO lucky Carmack hadn't deleted the "or any later version" back then11:07
divVerentas GPL2 can't link to LGPL311:07
divVerentthat is just insane11:07
divVerentEVERYTHING can link to LGPL3, except for GPL211:07
divVerentso we now have the funny situation that Xonotic binary builds are necessarily GPL3, except on OS X where they still are GPL2 as they there can use the OS-provided OpenSSL library for the same features11:08
divVerent(yes, OpenSSL has GPL-incompatible license, but if it comes with the OS, that's ok, says even the GPL)11:08
divVerentthe main reason why I did this though was that it's hell to compile libgmp on OS X11:08
divVerentwe now are ready to go away from libgmp any time though... as libtomsfastmath (WTFPL, IIRC) is also supportedf11:09
divVerentand why would we want to ditch gmp? because the FSF screwed up11:09
divVerentmaking two of their own licenses needlessly incompatible11:09
DocScrutinizer05I got better things to do in my active time than to deal with this nonsensical GPL stuff, just to give RMS an orgasm11:09
FIQ[09:46:48] <DocScrutinizer05> and even worse: we (the hackers) have to use that hugest virus ever (from Redmond) now, to RE many hardware drivers that are no longer supported at all under linux - hm?11:10
divVerentthey're not even following the GPL on their own11:10
divVerentso why should we :)11:10
divVerentI mean... offers files (or was it
divVerentthat are under the GPL11:10
divVerentbut without providing any source11:10
divVerentI called them out on it via email, and all they told me was "no idea, the original author didn't give us source"11:11
DocScrutinizer05FIQ: guess how many companies stopped linux support all together, instead of disclosing their driver code as Stallman hoped to force them to do11:11
divVerentA version by the band Zweitgolf: free_software_song_sunnata.ogg, released under the GPL11:11
divVerentNo source, no excuse :P11:11
divVerentnot even a wav file...11:12
divVerentand THEY want to be taken serious11:12
divVerentI'm sure Zweitgolf would have given them a "source file" if they had asked.11:12
divVerentDocScrutinizer05: right... and it's not even just about company secrets11:13
divVerentwe can agree that "company secrets" of this kind are bad and SHOULD be stamped out, BUT...11:13
divVerentthe fault often isn't even with the company making the device11:13
divVerentbut with some company three layers down the line which made a chip on the card11:13
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divVerentto release sources of the whole device, THAT company would have to be asked to release source... and they would11:14
divVerentfor a price11:14
divVerentthis easily would double or triple all hardware prices now11:14
divVerentOTOH I don't get why a driver for hardware HAS to contain any "secrets"11:14
FIQ[10:11:21] <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: guess how many companies stopped linux support all together, instead of disclosing their driver code as Stallman hoped to force them to do11:14
FIQyay for backfiring results11:15
divVerentthe firmware for the hardware, sure11:15
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DocScrutinizer05and evem more silly: all those firmware sources are *absolutely* worthless junk without comprehensive hw docs11:15
divVerentFIQ: backfiring? It's not like Stallman endorses Linux anyway.11:15
divVerentHurd is soon gonna be ready...11:15
divVerentwith 2 drivers.11:15
divVerentDocScrutinizer05: yes11:15
divVerentwhat we REALLY need for firmware blobs is NOT sources11:15
divVerentthe GPL doesn't even demand that11:15
divVerentwe just need to be able to distribute them legally11:15
FIQdivVerent: oh yeah and I'm sure a lot of people will use it11:16
divVerentespecially how the FW upload system on Linux works, the firmware and the driver are very independent11:16
divVerentFIQ: absolutely11:16
divVerentI will put Hurd on my Nexus 4 when it comes out11:16
DocScrutinizer05(distribute) absolutely11:16
divVerentalso, I don't get Stallman there11:17
divVerentwhy are firmware blobs that are uploaded to RAM "evil"11:17
divVerentand firmware blobs that are burnt on EPROM "good"?11:17
DocScrutinizer05it''s idiotic11:18
divVerentor even PROM :)11:18
divVerentit's a fact, any hardware contains "secrets" even if it uses no uploadable firmware blobs11:18
divVerentI can see why he wants people to prefer Linux distros containing only free applications and drivers...11:19
divVerentbut I see nothing wrong with firmware blobs11:19
divVerentif there is anything, then tell me ONE e.g. sound card with free firmware11:19
DocScrutinizer05RMS even speculates and assumes a damn lot when he claims that "firmware2 is any software at all, and he's even more insane when he thinks we could get a source for that which is telling us anything. Maybe the the whole shite been developed in assembler, eh?11:20
divVerentprobably the SB16? Yes, you can't flash it, you don't upload a FW file. But what about the DSP itself? The SB16 has ROM chips on them, where is THEIR source?11:20
DocScrutinizer05or even in hex11:20
divVerentwell, firmware "tends to be software"11:20
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divVerentbut yes, can have been developed in hex :P11:20
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divVerentI wonder if he's ever seen a FPGA though :)11:20
DocScrutinizer05prolly no idea what's a FPGA11:20
jaskai guess hed want the verilog for any fpgas :)11:21
jaskaor whatever language they used11:21
divVerentespecially for these, it's hard to say if what you "burn" there is settings, or software11:21
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divVerentjaska: IF they used it :P11:21
DocScrutinizer05jaska: sure, and the source for the compiler as well11:21
divVerentGPL says "preferred form for making modifications to it"11:21
divVerentHere's a troll method to generate source:11:22
divVerentship the empty file11:22
divVerentGPL explicity says you don't have to give away the compiler11:22
divVerentso your "compiler" is a program ignoring its input outputting the file11:22
DocScrutinizer05yeah, the cmdline defines prank11:22
divVerenthehe, or that11:22
jaskawrite everything in turing tarpit languages?11:22
divVerentjaska: you mean verilog? :)11:22
DocScrutinizer05cat hugeprog.c  -> x11:23
divVerentBTW, recently read about a funny turing tarpit :P11:23
divVerenteven without self modifying code, x86 mov + jmp is turing complete11:23
divVerentuse one range for values, another for addresses, but do have RAM in the "values area"...11:24
divVerentthen mov bx, [A]; mov [bx], 0; mov bx, [B]; mov [bx], 1; mov bx, [A]; mov ax, [bx]11:25
jaskaisnt the code in this case combination of mov and the data?11:25
divVerentwould put 0 in ax if A != B, 1 if A == B11:25
divVerentbut the data can be initialized11:25
divVerentsee this example :P11:25
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divVerentyou can set up your data with lots of initial movs11:25
divVerentbasically, they wrote an universal turing machine with just mov and jmp11:25
divVerentone final jmp at the end back to the start, as the only looping construct there is11:26
divVerentbut my favorite esoteric turing-complete language is the single instruction machine11:26
jaskai wonder how efficient an oisc hardware would be11:27
divVerentit's kinda bad to L1 cache :)11:27
jaskayour l1 cache is your register file11:28
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HRH_H_Crab20:35:59 < HRH_H_Crab> i worry that idimmu has got a potty next to him.11:35
HRH_H_Crab20:36:14 < HRH_H_Crab> and a growing pile of pizza boxes and drinks packaging11:35
HRH_H_Crab20:37:06 < jesterina> let's not kid ourselves, he's cut a hole in the sofa and put the potty under it11:35
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DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: (MWKN twitter) FPTF gaining unexpected momentum, thanks to extraordinarily dedicated and inspired work of jonwil, Pali, freemangordon, nicolai:
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Mac3got it :)12:16
Mac3i think i just got lucky tho lol12:16
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Mac3hope i can replicate it later12:19
Mac3but so far so good12:19
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Mac3DocScrutinizer05: i'm using pan nw12:58
Mac3seems to work12:59
Mac3won't work withthe ms stire12:59
Mac3but that isn't a deal breaker and probably isn't related12:59
Mac3for whatever reason i did have to install pc connectivity13:02
Mac3no idea why13:02
Mac3but it adds bnep0 to interfaces13:02
Mac3then i was able t see the an device in windws rt in the surface13:02
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jake42DocScrutinizer05: :-P15:21
jonwilbah, this Gentoo emerge is going to take forever (assuming my Gentoo box doesn't crap out in the mean time)15:24
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Macerwell... later on i will see if i can get the pan working again15:36
Macerwas so happy when it worked15:36
Maceri should try to get it to work with the android tablet15:36
keriorun emerge on the tablet15:54
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dos1(that's the best headline I could do in 80-chars limit :P)18:42
dos1och, looks like it's not available yet to outside world18:45
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jean_bratHi guys .. i hace microsoft bluetooth keyboard 5000, it works perfectly with btinput in nokia n9, however it does not work in (extkbd) n900,  During the pairing the number Keys works perfectly fine but after that only the character keys are functional, y and z are interchanged..i have tried almost all the layouts, all seems to have the same result...and same set of keys are not functional..19:55
jean_bratis ithe issue with extkbd? Or is there any specific layout i can try for this19:55
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keriojean_brat: qzerty is a sign of a weird layout20:16
jean_bratkerio, i am trying all the layout there is no difference in any.. all they keyboard gives me the same result20:23
mashinanon-qwerty: the sign of a country having NIH layout syndrome20:24
jean_bratf4 pulls of the save and exit menu in the note pad f7 and f8 pulls the volume up and down20:25
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keriothat's kind of intended20:25
keriothe volume keys *are* f7 and f820:25
jean_bratnone of the number keys .. including ~ and [ ]  ; ? > < n  works20:26
jean_bratin any layout.. i tried random configurations20:26
jean_bratNIH layout ? i din get you20:28
jean_bratstrangly.. how come all the keyboard layout is giving me the same result?20:29
jean_bratwas hoping .. atleast the thinkpad layout in the list should work20:30
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jean_brathey.. strangely.. if i hold the keys for little longer its behaving exact same as N900's querty keypad. like if i hold A for 2 seconds it becomes *20:37
divVerentBTW... I noticed...20:39
divVerentI asked a few days ago whether on ecan map volume to the builtin keyboard20:39
divVerentso I tried mapping keys to f7/f820:39
divVerentthis didn't work though... or rather20:39
divVerentit works for font size in terminal20:39
divVerentso I thought I was happy :P20:40
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divVerentbut it does not work for volume20:40
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divVerentbut that's interesting, if for you on a BT keyboard F7 DOES change volume20:40
jean_bratyes.. but none of my first row keys (~!@#$% 1234 ) and all the special characters are not working20:41
jean_brathow do u map the keys?20:42
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jean_bratsome one please give me some hint.. i don know where to look20:45
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jean_bratsome how ths extkbd is not overriding the default n900 keypad layout,, so all the character keys behaves the same way..20:58
jean_brathowever how few the functions keys are working is still a mystery20:58
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sixwheeledbeastmmm there was apost somewhere....23:01
sixwheeledbeast~listkeys boot23:02
infobotFactoid search of 'boot' by key (16 of 170): /boot/params ;; @reboot ;; barboot ;; boot animation ;; bootblaster ;; bootldr changelog ;; bootldr howto ;; bootloader you use ;; bootsplash ;; booty rap ;; etherboot ;; gui yaboot ;; i recently learned that "load usercode" in bootldr ;; leo-bootkit ;; ofboot ;; pornoboots.23:02
infobotmethinks pornoboots is
sixwheeledbeastinfobot: boot-process is
infobotokay, sixwheeledbeast23:04
dos1~booty rap23:05
* infobot dances23:05
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RiDare you the new infobot snacker, do23:07
infobot:), dos123:08
sixwheeledbeastcan't have it idling ;)23:08
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Pali~seen DocScrutinizer0523:34
Pali~seen DocScrutinizer5123:34
infobotdocscrutinizer05 is currently on #maemo #n9 #harmattan #meego #openmoko #maemo-ssu #infobot #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 2696 messages. Is idling for 8h 52m 59s, last said: 'been like 19ct/min back when'.23:34
infobotdocscrutinizer51 is currently on #maemo #harmattan #maemo-ssu #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 22 messages. Is idling for 4d 4h 27m 46s, last said: 'where?'.23:34
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RiDtrojan horse23:46
RST38hI have a problem with the amount23:47
RST38hWHY IS IT NOT $30mil???23:48
RiDwhy should it be 30?23:48
dos130 pieces of silver?23:49
dos1seems legit23:49
dos1well, let's hope Elop becomes new MS CEO23:50
dos1Macromedia... Nokia... now it's time for Microsoft :)23:50
RST38hYes, I am awaiting that23:50
RST38hIt is time for Microsoft to jump into the water23:51

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