| dos1 | actually, it's just a preparation for next years April Fools, but shhh, you haven't heard it from me! | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sysaxed: join the movement, spread the word | 00:00 |
| r00t|home | well, it's a nice idea, but sorry, it doesn't seem realistic to me... | 00:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | r00t|home: sorry, you haven't seen the whole picture then | 00:00 |
| dos1 | r00t|home: what I like in this project is that it's massively basing on work which was already done | 00:01 |
| r00t|home | i'd be in at the 300eur price point maybe, tell me when you found the 9999 other buyers | 00:01 |
| dos1 | either for GTA04 or N900 | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nikolaus and myself are no spleeny schoolkids. We know our shite | 00:01 |
| dos1 | which makes it really realistic, at least in my eyes | 00:01 |
| dos1 | much more realistic than any other idea for similar community-based device I've ever heard | 00:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed GTA04 been WAAAY less realistic | 00:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | still it became reality | 00:02 |
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| dos1 | yup, I was skeptical on the initial announcements, even if there were already working Openmoko Beagle Hybrid boards | 00:03 |
| Sysaxed | DocScrutinizer05: how would spreading the word help? | 00:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | compared to GTA04 Neo900 is a walk in the park, as hard as eating the cake | 00:03 |
| dos1 | (the base for GTA04 - modified BeagleBoard to be able to use GTA02 case) | 00:03 |
| dos1 | and indeed it worked in the end | 00:04 |
| dos1 | so i'm pretty optimistic with Neo900, Goldelico can make wonders :) | 00:04 |
| dos1 | even if 99% of the world population won't ever hear of them nor be interested in what they do | 00:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sysaxed: it will increase the number of preorders, and that's the crux of the bisquit in the end - if we can get sufficient number of preorders | 00:05 |
| dos1 | they still do miracles for own small niche, and I'm very thankful | 00:05 |
| dos1 | s/own/our/ | 00:05 |
| infobot | dos1 meant: they still do miracles for our small niche, and I'm very thankful | 00:05 |
| Sysaxed | DocScrutinizer05: sufficient number of preorders = ? | 00:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 200 | 00:06 |
| Sysaxed | that's very easy | 00:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a ridiculous modest two hundred | 00:06 |
| r00t|home | i'm just questioning the size of the market / achieveable price... i'm not buying a phone for many 100 euros... be it an iphone or a linux phone... | 00:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | r00t|home: then don't worry | 00:06 |
| Sysaxed | DocScrutinizer05: and what is the price? | 00:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 | 00:07 |
| Sysaxed | DocScrutinizer05: which page? | 00:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | post # 1 | 00:07 |
| dos1 | r00t|home: we aim for 200 buyers. I don't think it's impossible to achieve. | 00:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for 200 units we hope to reach 700EUR sales price | 00:08 |
| Sysaxed | 700€ ... oh... | 00:08 |
| r00t|home | dos1: that's 600eur per device then, yeah? | 00:08 |
| dos1 | if more will come, then great! even awesome! but we'll be already successful with just 200 | 00:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if we can get 2000 units sold, it will already be remarkably cheaper | 00:08 |
| r00t|home | well, good luck to you | 00:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks | 00:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N900 needed no luck when they started rollout at 599EUR | 00:09 |
| dos1 | there are circa 300 GTA04s there sold for ~600EUR | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we don't aim to be better and cheaper than they were | 00:10 |
| Sysaxed | well, there's no way I can buy a phone for 700€ in near future, even considering the fact that n900 is my wife | 00:10 |
| r00t|home | i bought my first for 150 and the next for 100... maybe it's just me... | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | definitely | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I once bought a rolls royce for 50 bucks | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not really | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it was too expensive | 00:11 |
| r00t|home | Sysaxed: i probably wouldn't even if i could | 00:11 |
| r00t|home | lol | 00:11 |
| dos1 | sure, it's expensive and not everyone will be able or even want to spend such amount of money for such phone | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | r00t|home: then pretty please stop worrying | 00:11 |
| dos1 | we're perfectly aware of that | 00:11 |
| Sysaxed | no, I'd probably kill for that phone | 00:11 |
| Sysaxed | but not 700€, sorry :\ | 00:12 |
| dos1 | but there's little we can do with that, except getting more orders | 00:12 |
| r00t|home | Sysaxed: so you'd kill for 700eur? give me your bank account and where i can send the name | 00:12 |
| Sysaxed | r00t|home: if only you send me Neo900 right now :) | 00:12 |
| Sysaxed | and if we aim for 500 preorders, how high would be the price? | 00:13 |
| r00t|home | Sysaxed: let's get bcak to this when production starts | 00:14 |
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| r00t|home | Sysaxed: see the table in the tmo thread | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sysaxed: not much difference yet | 00:14 |
| dos1 | the table is about current GTA04 | 00:14 |
| r00t|home | (even if that's for gta04) | 00:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Sysaxed: magnitudes of 10 make a difference, not exponents of 2 | 00:14 |
| dos1 | there will be some differences - for sure Neo900 will be a bit more expensive than GTA04 | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | quite a bit | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | case crap costs 150 bucks | 00:15 |
| Sysaxed | 200 preorders is quite easy, look, there are 233 people in this chat.. if only the price was a little lower | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cam alone costs 50 | 00:16 |
| Sysaxed | case crap? | 00:16 |
| r00t|home | well, again, good luck to you, but i personally don't think there's a large enough market for that device, even if it's a neat idea | 00:16 |
| Sysaxed | uhhh, 150 for the case? | 00:16 |
| r00t|home | Sysaxed: stuff beyond the pcb | 00:16 |
| RiD | DocScrutinizer05 case is 150 bucks? | 00:16 |
| Sysaxed | wtf? | 00:16 |
| dos1 | I think it includes whole front panel | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | r00t|home: well, again, thanks for your notion, stop worrying! | 00:16 |
| dos1 | which is left unchanged for Neo900 | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | r00t|home: it's conceived as negativism here | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | RiD: case, screen, digitizer, speakers, antennae.... | 00:17 |
| dos1 | maybe except getting rid of Nokia logo ;) | 00:17 |
| RiD | woah that's expensive | 00:18 |
| RiD | Is it different fron the normal N900 one? | 00:18 |
| RiD | from | 00:18 |
| r00t|home | dos1: you probably can arrange to fix this... (missing double-slash in redirect target for the gta04 order link): http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04 => Location: https:/shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04 | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~neo900 | 00:19 |
| infobot | i guess neo900 is at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142, or at http://neo900.org/ | 00:19 |
| RiD | I understand that you can't put NOKIA on the bezel | 00:19 |
| dos1 | get only the board and upgrade your current N900 for a cheaper option :) | 00:19 |
| RiD | Oh I see the name now | 00:19 |
| r00t|home | dos1: more like fix one of those broken n900s | 00:19 |
| dos1 | see, even cheaper | 00:20 |
| RiD | Mine is in perfect condition, not a single scratch | 00:20 |
| RiD | who gives 500€ for it | 00:20 |
| dos1 | r00t|home: try to use some contact links from that page, I'm not related to Goldelico by any way | 00:20 |
| dos1 | other than being fan of them ;) | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seeya, dudes, I got some _real_ work to do | 00:20 |
| r00t|home | dos1: i don't care enough to spend that much time on it | 00:21 |
| RiD | joke aside, I can't wait to see the result (though I won't be able to buy one.. running $hort on ca$h) | 00:21 |
| r00t|home | would be great if you had good marketing and could get the device as hyped as the raspberry pi... :D | 00:24 |
| dos1 | Neo900 for $15? yeah, why not! :D | 00:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | as hyped as the TI zoom-2 (which never came with phone function since TI messed up the RoHS, but nevertheless cost ~1200$)? | 00:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if Nokia hadn't announced the N900, I had bought a zoom-II and retrofitted a modem to it | 00:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | despite the incredibly insane MMC slot | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | standard size MMC but then, since standard size is too large, it protrudes like 15mm from the case | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you wouldn't want to carry such thing with MMC inserted | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and - to be honest - we can't do *anything* about the price of Neo900 since pretty simple we don't earn a pence on them | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if we weren't such suckers, we would need to sell them for at least twice the price | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now you know the cruel truth about this project | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (twice) wich would put the Neo900 absolutely on par with similar commercial projects like e.g. zoom | 00:45 |
| dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: http://pastebin.com/cEVPsBDu | 00:45 |
| dos1 | quick'n'dirty'n'whatev | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though TI could afford to ask for less than they tjhemselves pay for the BOM. But they don't do it, not even they do | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: looks like a start. I will give it a thorough read and then forward it to GA | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: ^^^ | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: maybe you already wanna have a look (you know, /.) | 00:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://lwn.net/Articles/567295/ CM goes commercial | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not that anybody in here really cares a lot about CM, right? | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, Cyanogen mod, Android | 01:16 |
| RiD | its OK | 01:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer05, want me to edit it? | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: if you could come up with a similar story (or slightly or even massively changed one) that sounds good, is an eyecatcher and could make it to a /. post, that would be awesome | 01:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the more buzzwords (for aunt google and the occasional reader) the better | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK, I'll work on it tonight or tomorrow. | 01:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | many thanks :-) | 01:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I love your writing style, so I'm sure it will be worth waiting for it, even when it will be only 3 sentences maybe | 01:30 |
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| dos1 | GeneralAntilles: yeah, feel free to massively edit it out, it's just a quick draft | 01:41 |
| dos1 | GeneralAntilles: you may also note somehow that this "high hackability" is not only about software, but about hardware too | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Haha. High praise, DocScrutinizer05, thanks. :P | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | dos1, OK. I think I'll probably start from some main bullet points and work from there. | 01:42 |
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| dos1 | GeneralAntilles: there is some text on http://neo900.org/ that may be useful for listing those bullet points | 01:44 |
| dos1 | hmm, well, now I reread last msg and I feel like Cpt. Obvious :) | 01:46 |
| dos1 | too much simplex tables I guess | 01:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 01:49 |
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| FIQ | wtf | 02:36 |
| FIQ | why on earth is music files copied over from wherever they are to .local/share/sounds if used as ringtunes? | 02:37 |
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| kerio | because of reasons | 02:39 |
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| FIQ | isn't that kinda silly? | 02:41 |
| FIQ | say if you decide to have MBs of files as tunes (without knowing about this behaviour) and then you wonder why something is taking up 30MB of file size for unnecessary copes | 02:42 |
| FIQ | *copies | 02:42 |
| FIQ | I don't see the reason.. oh well | 02:42 |
| dos1 | well, if you use something that's on microsd, and then you remove/replace it | 02:42 |
| dos1 | or move/delete the file wherever it is | 02:43 |
| dos1 | it wouldn't have a ringtone to play | 02:43 |
| dos1 | so that's some reason | 02:43 |
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| jonwil | It also converts it into a wav file | 02:55 |
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| dos1 | i guess that's for performance reasons | 02:59 |
| dos1 | in FSO/SHR once we had full gstreamer support for lots of formats, even SID | 03:00 |
| dos1 | unfortunately, on Freerunner it was casing horrible lags when starting/stoping ringtone playback | 03:01 |
| dos1 | when we switched to just simple wav playback, it was much better | 03:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: the reason is pretty simple: a) you never would know if the uSD (or content of eMMC on that behalf) is still there when you need a ringtone to play it back, and b) the files get converted to .wav *always*, to save the CPU overhead and thus delay for loading the mp3/whatever decoder and then decode the song | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, maybe I should revert to reading backscroll bottom-up instead of top-down | 03:25 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 feels stupid | 03:25 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: and who suggested that? who? eh?? ;-P | 03:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc I didn't even know sh*t about fremantle at large back when | 03:28 |
| dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: still using arkanoid ringtone? ;) | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, when I'd boot up GTA02 I bet it still would do | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I changed to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZZVD__ZhB0 though, some 4..5y ago | 03:34 |
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| jonwil | I have a part cut out of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niYlqPGgR-Q as my ringtone :) | 03:50 |
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| Macer | hm | 07:51 |
| Macer | windows rt doesnt support bt dun or adhoc | 07:51 |
| Macer | it's android v2.0 | 07:52 |
| Macer | can someone please help me out with configuring bt pan in maemo? | 07:53 |
| Macer | for the life of me i cant figure it out lol | 07:53 |
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| natsukao_ | hi | 07:55 |
| Macer | from 2010 | 07:56 |
| Macer | http://maemo.org/community/maemo-users/bluetooth_pan_on_n900/ | 07:56 |
| Macer | heh | 07:56 |
| natsukao_ | my nokia 770' lcd is full of signs | 07:59 |
| natsukao_ | do you know where can i find lcd for replacement ? | 07:59 |
| Macer | well. seems my maemo.org login isnt working | 08:01 |
| Macer | awesome | 08:01 |
| Macer | cant click on register in microb either. blah | 08:01 |
| psycho_oreos | The last I recall, one couldn't register via microB. | 08:02 |
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| Macer | nobody sees how awesomely bad that is? :) | 08:02 |
| psycho_oreos | As for 770's LCD replacement screen I'm not sure. Even Ebay would be a far fetched idea. | 08:03 |
| Macer | maemo.org... cant register via maemo hehe | 08:03 |
| Macer | that like not being able to use gmail in chrome | 08:03 |
| psycho_oreos | I've filed a bug for it upon hearing someone was talking about it. I've tried it myself and it was true hence I filed a bug. I have yet to hear any updates. | 08:03 |
| Macer | ah well[A | 08:05 |
| Macer | im going to try to see if i can get bt pan working | 08:05 |
| Macer | :-/ | 08:05 |
| Macer | wish mobilehotspot supported it | 08:05 |
| Macer | DisablePlugins = network,hal | 08:08 |
| Macer | heh | 08:08 |
| psycho_oreos | It is a little ironic thinking about it. I recall there was a patent war with I think it was adhoc on mobile devices. It was somewhat the reason that it forced Google to use proper AP mode for wifi hot spot and not adhoc. If such were the case, then it would be ironic for windows to not support adhoc afterall it owns a fair proportion of nokia anyway. | 08:08 |
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| natsukao_ | any other person has had my own problem with lcd's nokia 770 ? | 08:11 |
| Macer | heh well... | 08:11 |
| Macer | im kind of stuck | 08:11 |
| natsukao_ | an lcd full of signs after 7 years | 08:11 |
| Macer | im trying to figure out how to configure pan in maemo | 08:11 |
| Macer | and documentation is scarce | 08:12 |
| Macer | i guess maemo/n900 has to be the "server" | 08:12 |
| Macer | but there is no information on how to configure it so other devices can hook up to it :( | 08:12 |
| psycho_oreos | natsukao_, maybe on the forums but no guarantees. | 08:16 |
| psycho_oreos | Macer, sounds like whoever made BT PAN work didn't want to document it. :p a good chance for you to step up to the challenge and to write a nice wiki entry for it. | 08:17 |
| Macer | if i can figure it out i will | 08:17 |
| natsukao_ | anyone knows which is the builder of that lcd ? | 08:17 |
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| Macer | apparently it is done in /etc/bluetooth/main.conf | 08:17 |
| Macer | natsukao_: ebay a new one | 08:17 |
| natsukao_ | thanks psycho_oeros | 08:17 |
| natsukao_ | thanks macer | 08:18 |
| Macer | psycho_oreos: i guess it is more a bluetoothd thing than a maemo thing | 08:18 |
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| Macer | you have to enale bluetooth pan... or at lease un-disable it | 08:19 |
| psycho_oreos | Macer, still it needs documenting, no? :) | 08:19 |
| Macer | then configure soeme sort of network | 08:19 |
| Macer | heh | 08:19 |
| Macer | yeah but i need to figure out how to do it first :) | 08:20 |
| Macer | i will document it if i can | 08:20 |
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| natsukao | sorry | 08:21 |
| natsukao | my shell crashed, while i was setting up a background | 08:21 |
| Macer | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8995803 | 08:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | psycho_oreos: bug number? (registration) | 08:26 |
| Macer | http://forum.doozan.com/read.php?2,2698 | 08:27 |
| Macer | maybe that will be better to use | 08:27 |
| Macer | what is phonet0 | 08:28 |
| Macer | ? | 08:28 |
| psycho_oreos | DocScrutinizer05, crap, I'm searching for that now. I had it on my laptop (till it died). | 08:29 |
| natsukao | is there the possibility to bypass that shit of flash on the browser ? | 08:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: nothing you want to know | 08:30 |
| Macer | heh | 08:30 |
| Macer | ok | 08:30 |
| natsukao | that flash is not anymore supported, it was a version for nokia 770, and it does not exists nymore for nokia 770 | 08:30 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer05: bridge_ports eth0 | 08:30 |
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| psycho_oreos | DocScrutinizer05, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12703 <-- I don't have any maemo devices to test (for now...) | 08:30 |
| povbot_ | Bug 12703: Unable to register on talk.maemo.org forums. | 08:30 |
| Macer | when creating a bridge to pan tether | 08:30 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 talks some ISI to Macer | 08:31 | |
| Macer | i would assume i am using gprs0 | 08:31 |
| Macer | as the port? | 08:31 |
| natsukao | it was developed just for nokia, and never was available an update, so that flash, is stopped to an old version | 08:31 |
| Macer | im reading a debian guide on how to configure a pan server | 08:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gprs0 sounds like a proper internet access NIC | 08:31 |
| Macer | trying to figure this out | 08:32 |
| Macer | so i can document it for the poor saps like myself who have a surface | 08:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | phonet0 is some gibberish you for sure don't want to learn details about | 08:32 |
| Macer | or android tablet | 08:32 |
| natsukao | it has not sense to have a dated version of flash, that is not anymore possible to use, because unsupported | 08:32 |
| Macer | which both only support bt pan and infrastructure mode | 08:32 |
| natsukao | hot to remove it ? | 08:32 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer05: ok | 08:32 |
| Macer | let me keep trying this out | 08:32 |
| psycho_oreos | natsukao, I sort of doubt its possible to bypass. On N900 (I know, completely different and somewhat irrelevant). It is possible to tweak flash version and there was a leaked flash player available. Though for 770 it may seem somewhat unlikely. | 08:33 |
| natsukao | well, good idea of adobe and nokia | 08:33 |
| natsukao | is there a way to install a sort of Tor for nokia 770 ? | 08:35 |
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| natsukao | i know is available Tor for Nokia 900 | 08:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: ping -I gprs0 8.8.8.8 should work | 08:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: ...as long as you're actually connected via GPRS to internet | 08:36 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer05: i see | 08:37 |
| psycho_oreos | I guess you might need to use scratchbox and compile it for 770 by hand natsukao. Your best bet for all your 770 issues would probably be best targeted at maemo.org forums. I don't think there are many active 770 owners here on IRC. | 08:37 |
| Macer | it does | 08:37 |
| Macer | but i dont understand how you are supposed to bridge bnep0 | 08:37 |
| Macer | when bnep0 is a virtual device that pops up after a device tries to network to it | 08:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, it uses pnatd in a way, afaik | 08:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or nope, wait# | 08:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly socat can do the trick? | 08:38 |
| Macer | the maemo documentation is useless for this heh | 08:38 |
| Macer | there is really not much out there | 08:39 |
| Macer | just small mentions of pan and ancient wikis | 08:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, no PAN devices here to test | 08:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aiui simply piping with socat between bnep and gprs should work, eh? | 08:40 |
| Macer | no idea how to do that | 08:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | poor man's bridge | 08:40 |
| Macer | my knowledge in this area is limited | 08:40 |
| Macer | yah | 08:41 |
| Macer | im reading debian docs | 08:41 |
| Macer | since that is the closest distro to maemo | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | man socat | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~man socat | 08:41 |
| infobot | No manual entry for socat | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~man date | 08:41 |
| infobot | No manual entry for date | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal man xx | 08:42 |
| infobot | No manual entry for xx | 08:42 |
| Macer | heh | 08:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal man (.?) | 08:42 |
| infobot | No manual entry for (.?) | 08:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | f u infobot | 08:42 |
| Macer | i dont see socat | 08:42 |
| Macer | is it part of a pkg? | 08:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | socat? hmm | 08:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~dinfo socat | 08:43 |
| infobot | socat: (multipurpose relay for bidirectional data transfer), section net, is extra. Version: 1.7.2.2-1 (sid), Packaged size: 374 kB, Installed size: 891 kB | 08:43 |
| Macer | is it in devel? | 08:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nfc | 08:43 |
| Macer | haha | 08:44 |
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| Macer | http://pastebin.com/8wa2paN7 | 08:45 |
| Macer | well | 08:45 |
| Macer | i added that bottom section to see if i can get a bridge going | 08:45 |
| Macer | hopefully it doesnt bork my gprs0 heh | 08:46 |
| FIQ | ~man man | 08:46 |
| infobot | No manual entry for man | 08:46 |
| FIQ | pffffff | 08:46 |
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| psycho_oreos | ~man woman | 08:48 |
| infobot | No manual entry for woman | 08:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys man | 08:48 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'man' by key (17 of 635): <b>a.h.: artificial humanoid</b> ;; and pacman ;; babelfish en th hanuman ;; blind man ;; command list ;; country oman ;; dickman ;; fman ;; gazman ;; gnome2 mini commander ;; human response time ;; humans ;; i've only added one command, and it ;; jmanv ;; kaiman ;; kzacman ;; manson. | 08:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | God | 08:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~factinfo man | 08:49 |
| infobot | man -- last modified at Tue Apr 18 08:09:56 2006 by Tem!n=Tem@adsl-212-53-107.lft.bellsouth.net; it has been requested 21 times, last by youtah at Thu Jul 25 18:47:28 2013. | 08:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~man | 08:49 |
| infobot | Tem and Tain are the man. | 08:49 |
| natsukao | seems that Nokia altered the linux kernel for nokia 770 | 08:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal man (.?) | 08:49 |
| infobot | No manual entry for (.?) | 08:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~literal cmd: man (.?) | 08:50 |
| psycho_oreos | I guess nokia would have for every other devices nokia produces running on linux platform. | 08:50 |
| * psycho_oreos still chuckles at that lkml link. | 08:50 | |
| Macer | hm | 08:51 |
| psycho_oreos | Patch contains two lines... >> needs to be split >> new email new patch >> wtf.. two lines with the latter additional line being <CR><LF> and only that. | 08:52 |
| Macer | what pkg is brctl a part of? | 08:52 |
| natsukao | https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2008-September/019285.html Tor on Nokia Internet Tablet? | 08:52 |
| Macer | ~dinfo brctl | 08:53 |
| * Macer looks around | 08:54 | |
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| Macer | http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/b/bridge-utils/bridge-utils_1.4-5_armel.deb | 08:55 |
| Macer | hm | 08:55 |
| Macer | ugh | 08:56 |
| natsukao | where is possible to buy Torx screw for Nokia 770 ? | 08:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, that should be available in fleabay | 08:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~dfind brctl | 08:58 |
| infobot | Debian Search of 'brctl' (4 of 7): (/sbin/brctl) in net/bridge-utils ;; (/usr/share/selinux/mls/brctl.pp) in admin/selinux-policy-mls ;; (/usr/share/selinux/default/brctl.pp) in admin/selinux-policy-default ;; (/usr/share/zsh/functions/Completion/Linux/_brctl) in shells/zsh-common. | 08:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~dfind 5 brctl | 08:58 |
| infobot | Debian Package/File/Desc Search of '5 brctl' returned no results. | 08:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | stupid | 08:59 |
| Macer | oh.... | 08:59 |
| psycho_oreos | Dunno if this helps (BT PAN): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php/images/smilies/showthread.php?t=58570 | 09:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also | 09:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg | 09:00 |
| infobot | i guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/ | 09:00 |
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| natsukao | is there in any repository Tor for nokia 770 ? | 09:05 |
| Macer | pc-connectivity-manager | 09:06 |
| Macer | ? | 09:06 |
| Macer | i thought that was broken | 09:07 |
| natsukao | in: http://maemo.org/packages/view/tor/ | 09:08 |
| natsukao | i found many packages named Tor, anyone knows, which is the latest version for nokia 770 ? | 09:08 |
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| psycho_oreos | In that link you provided, none are probably suitable for 770. | 09:12 |
| FIQ | lol the phonebloks video got 12mil views now | 09:14 |
| psycho_oreos | natsukao, maybe http://p.quinput.eu/debfarm/pool/tor_0.1.2.17-1_armel.deb from http://www.gronmayer.com/it/index.php | 09:16 |
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| Macer | ifconfig bnep0 down | 09:26 |
| Macer | ifconfig: SIOCGIFFLAGS: No such device | 09:26 |
| Macer | + ifconfig bnep0 up | 09:26 |
| Macer | fml | 09:26 |
| Macer | i am at a loss | 09:31 |
| Macer | i need to figure out how to get rt to see this n900 as a pan device | 09:31 |
| Macer | so it will detect the profile and see it as such | 09:32 |
| Macer | i give up for now. spent enough time on it | 09:32 |
| natsukao | now my tablet nokia 770, is chargin the battery | 09:33 |
| natsukao | i found all these Tor packages, but i don't undestand why one of these does not work :-( http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/t/tor/ | 09:34 |
| Macer | because fremantle wont run on n770 | 09:35 |
| natsukao | whois fremantle ? | 09:35 |
| Macer | i doubt you will even find a functional tor method on n770 | 09:36 |
| Macer | you may have better luck finding another os to use | 09:36 |
| psycho_oreos | fremantle is the codename for N900. | 09:36 |
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| psycho_oreos | http://wiki.maemo.org/Codenames | 09:36 |
| FIQ | no | 09:37 |
| FIQ | the codename for N900 is RX-51 | 09:37 |
| natsukao | i left many years ago, when i decided to turn back to i386 | 09:37 |
| FIQ | fremantle is the os though | 09:37 |
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| natsukao | the fact is that GNU/linux is totally boxed | 09:37 |
| psycho_oreos | Whoops, my bad.. Well in that case fremantle is the codename for Maemo 5. :> | 09:37 |
| FIQ | yes | 09:38 |
| natsukao | i use on my laptop GNU/linux gNewSense Deltah 2.3, kernel linux, version 2.6.24-32 | 09:39 |
| natsukao | and next one will we GNU/linux gNewSense 3 | 09:39 |
| psycho_oreos | linux kernel version 2.6.24? o.O | 09:39 |
| natsukao | no, no, i am using 2.6.24-32 | 09:39 |
| psycho_oreos | It's still based on 2.6 architecture. | 09:40 |
| FIQ | is that a problem? | 09:40 |
| psycho_oreos | No, just old (at least to me). | 09:40 |
| FIQ | oh yeah, 3.x has been around for a while | 09:40 |
| natsukao | i don't know what is Flash, and how to support it, i got Vidalia control Panel and in bundle FireFox | 09:41 |
| FIQ | but 2.6 is recent enough to not be that odd to run I think | 09:41 |
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| FIQ | hell, I've seen a few cases of 2.4 | 09:41 |
| FIQ | but that's rare | 09:41 |
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| FIQ | as that kernel is... old | 09:41 |
| natsukao | when starts FireFox, it has installed the plug-in NO-SCRIPT, GNU GPL, which works fine on youtube and similar ones | 09:42 |
| psycho_oreos | I only know from the 802.11 aspect, 2.6 kernel tree is ancient. | 09:42 |
| natsukao | does not matter ancient or new, it is important the support | 09:43 |
| natsukao | and sincerely don't like that GUI such as Ubuntu | 09:43 |
| FIQ | you can always use another desktop environment you know | 09:44 |
| natsukao | i love GUI's such CDE used on the old Sun Microsytems | 09:44 |
| psycho_oreos | You can force CLI on ubuntu for instance. It's not like on ubuntu without GUI it'll die. | 09:44 |
| natsukao | for me it's just enough GNU/linux gNewSense 3, that is totally new | 09:45 |
| psycho_oreos | There are other (to me more advanced) distros like arch, gentoo and slackware in which you can pretty much setup to forgo GUI completely (if you wish). | 09:45 |
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| natsukao | those are non free software distributions | 09:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | huh? | 09:46 |
| psycho_oreos | The distro itself is mixed, if you're talking about being strict GNU/GPL sense. | 09:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 09:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | n8 | 09:47 |
| psycho_oreos | heck even maemo is pretty much non-free. There are many closed bits as well. | 09:47 |
| FIQ | I don't get this discussion... | 09:48 |
| natsukao | i support only free software distributions such as: GNU/linux Blag; GNU/linux Dragora; GNU/linux Dynebolic; GNU/linux gNewSense; GNU/linux Musix; GNU/linux Parabola; GNU/linux Trisquel; GNU/linux Ututo | 09:48 |
| FIQ | and I've never heard of gNewSense | 09:48 |
| natsukao | i am a supporter in FSF.ORG | 09:48 |
| FIQ | ...or any of these either | 09:48 |
| FIQ | ok I've heard of dragora but didn't know the details | 09:48 |
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| FIQ | nothing @ other distros | 09:49 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 couldn't bother less | 09:49 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all a distro is... a distro | 09:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unless it's maemo with its friggin metapackage concept | 09:49 |
| psycho_oreos | Some people can be very strict on the stuff distro packages. | 09:49 |
| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: :D @ maemo | 09:50 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 goes to blacklist all distros that ship poettering stuff ;-P | 09:50 | |
| natsukao | a) https://gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html and b) https://gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html | 09:50 |
| FIQ | never really bothered to understand how it worked or what it was @ metapackage whatever | 09:50 |
| FIQ | probably I wont try to either as it seems hated | 09:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | natsukao: do you pray to RMS every morning? | 09:51 |
| FIQ | lol | 09:51 |
| natsukao | i am not telling you to download, but to read | 09:51 |
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| natsukao | no | 09:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks, I heard about that stuff before | 09:52 |
| psycho_oreos | I can only imagine metapackages are just packages in which one installs and it installs a whole bunch of other dependencies. Like ubuntu's apt-get install build-essential which installs, gcc, make, etc. | 09:52 |
| FIQ | well then maemo isn't really alone, is it? :P | 09:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | psycho_oreos: exactly | 09:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now you understood maemo | 09:52 |
| FIQ | if ubuntu also uses something similar to maemo-fremantle-*-pr | 09:52 |
| psycho_oreos | Yeah I've heard of it, debian also tinkered with GNU/Hurd (as in the kernel itself as well). Though its progress is slow. | 09:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo is ONE huge metapackage | 09:52 |
| natsukao | but like me what i am doing, i started 12 years ago, asking infos about Free Software | 09:53 |
| psycho_oreos | DocScrutinizer05, hehe I sorta understood about it sometime ago :D | 09:53 |
| natsukao | now i write about Free Software and hackers ethic | 09:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hah, writing about my ethics | 09:53 |
| FIQ | natsukao: seems you're a big follow of rms ideals | 09:53 |
| FIQ | *sounds like | 09:53 |
| natsukao | yes, sure | 09:54 |
| natsukao | and i find well so | 09:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | RMS sometimes starts to smell a little dusty | 09:54 |
| psycho_oreos | But then wouldn't owning 770 for instance be unethical as it contains non-FSF packages? | 09:54 |
| FIQ | [08:47:45] <psycho_oreos> heck even maemo is pretty much non-free. There are many closed bits as well. | 09:55 |
| natsukao | i known him 7 years ago, i was to dinner with him and his friend in Rome (Italy), located near Ara Pacis restaurant | 09:55 |
| FIQ | maemo is even worse than those commonly used non free dists | 09:55 |
| psycho_oreos | Rather non-FSF approved packages/modules/etc. | 09:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 09:55 |
| FIQ | as, to even work at all, maemo needs several closed source stuff | 09:55 |
| FIQ | while on common desktop distros, you at least have access to the source of everything essential for the os to run | 09:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if it was for RMS, OpenMoko never hat rolled out a single device. It would've been impossible | 09:56 |
| FIQ | and (most) applications for it | 09:56 |
| natsukao | last time in 2010 i went with RMS, Dora Scilipoti, Juan Carlos Gentile, to Garbatella, Rome, Italy, where we take our dinner with other 15 people | 09:56 |
| psycho_oreos | Courtesy of nokia and capitalism's ethics of course FIQ. | 09:57 |
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| natsukao | and infact Nokia failed | 09:57 |
| FIQ | nokia is a shell of its' former self | 09:57 |
| natsukao | ah ah ah | 09:57 |
| FIQ | clearly a result of bundling closed stuff in maemo | 09:57 |
| psycho_oreos | DocScrutinizer05, or linux kernel itself being so well advanced with contributors from many private sectors. | 09:57 |
| natsukao | corporations have not ethic | 09:58 |
| FIQ | and totally not a result of an idiot CEO | 09:58 |
| natsukao | i am not CEO of nobody | 09:58 |
| FIQ | I wasn't talking about you | 09:58 |
| FIQ | but about elop | 09:59 |
| natsukao | i am one between many, i have President, Principal | 09:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and RMs and friends think they can *force* hw manufs to disclose intellectual property, via GPL tricks | 09:59 |
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| natsukao | to the contrary i inform you that i was invited from one woman of the staff of FSF.ORG (Libby Reinish), to the latest 30^th GNU Anniversary | 10:00 |
| natsukao | i can't start at the moment, but i'll go in the future: http://ur1.ca/f6bi5 | 10:02 |
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| natsukao | you have not yet understood that i agree with that ideas : developing software as was to the MIT and other Universities in the rest of the America, when was possible to save something, again, don't like me the new way to see Informatics, and people which i agree are few in the world, i am not young such you, i am 41 y.o. | 10:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't talk honest with a guy who thinks embedded needs a dedicated flashrom and mc to load a few kB of initialization data into a peripheral chip, since he considers it a crime to store and move that data on the linux APE | 10:06 |
| divVerent | 08:59:14 DocScrutinizer05 | and RMs and friends think they can *force* hw manufs to disclose | 10:06 |
| divVerent | | intellectual property, via GPL tricks | 10:06 |
| divVerent | wrong | 10:06 |
| divVerent | they think - and rightly so - that they can force them to release source IF they release binary | 10:06 |
| divVerent | but any manufacturer is free to not support Linux | 10:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BWAHAHA | 10:07 |
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| divVerent | although they actually are somewhat wrong on this, given how the Linux guys changed the license a bit | 10:07 |
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| divVerent | there is general agreement that binary modules now ARE allowed if they don't use any EXPORT_GPL symbols | 10:07 |
| natsukao | i think that nokia was boxed, and a more free distribution could save it, now we got a pice of old hardware between the fingers | 10:07 |
| divVerent | so Stallman has no chance enforcing this any more | 10:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he never had | 10:07 |
| divVerent | also, most hardware can - at least in theory - also supported without kernel modules. No chance then either. | 10:07 |
| natsukao | infact, RMS does not need to enforce on me, i agree totally | 10:08 |
| divVerent | Regarding kernel modules, he did. | 10:08 |
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| divVerent | If you assume the linking restriction in the GPL is valid at all | 10:08 |
| divVerent | if not, GPL and LGPL are 100% equivalent | 10:08 |
| natsukao | LGPL for libraries, | 10:08 |
| divVerent | LGPL is lesser GPL | 10:08 |
| divVerent | it's basically a spinoff of the GPL that allows dynamic linking | 10:08 |
| divVerent | by essentially removing the linking restriction of the GPL if the linking is dynamic | 10:09 |
| divVerent | so if the linking restriction in the GPL is invalid to begin with | 10:09 |
| divVerent | then GPL == LGPL | 10:09 |
| divVerent | if only it were that easy to prove whether P = NP... | 10:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wanna see Stallman and FSF prove "linking" to a a hw manuf who offers a driver.ko | 10:10 |
| divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: that's the next fun part | 10:10 |
| divVerent | just supplying the .ko isn't linking | 10:10 |
| natsukao | you must be grateful to RMS, without GNU'S Not Unix Project, LTB, could not develop linux kernel | 10:10 |
| divVerent | but putting it on the same device and loading it at bootup is | 10:10 |
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| divVerent | the chip vendor would have a problem therefore | 10:10 |
| divVerent | *no problem | 10:10 |
| divVerent | but the device manufacturer would | 10:10 |
| divVerent | although there are generally accepted loopholes for that too (thanks, nvidia0 | 10:10 |
| divVerent | e.g. doing the module link at boot time :) | 10:11 |
| divVerent | provide a set of .o files, and generate the .ko at boot... and it all becomes moot too | 10:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the whole idea is BS | 10:11 |
| divVerent | well | 10:11 |
| divVerent | then tell that to Stallman, or a court | 10:11 |
| divVerent | I don't like the linking restriction in the GPL either | 10:11 |
| divVerent | but it is there | 10:11 |
| divVerent | and I would indeed like to be decided once and for all whether it is valid or not | 10:11 |
| natsukao | https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/lgpl-2.0.html | 10:12 |
| divVerent | too bad THIS hasn't gone to court ever before | 10:12 |
| divVerent | maybe one can shoot it down as a "surprising clause" | 10:12 |
| natsukao | there is not any restriction is GPL | 10:12 |
| divVerent | as a library is MADE for linking to it | 10:12 |
| FIQ | [09:09:56] <divVerent> if only it were that easy to prove whether P = NP... | 10:12 |
| FIQ | haha | 10:12 |
| divVerent | natsukao: there actually is | 10:13 |
| divVerent | if you ship a program TOGETHER with its libraries, you are creating a combined work | 10:13 |
| natsukao | What is Free Software? What is Free Software? | 10:13 |
| divVerent | if they're separate packages, no license can stop you ;) | 10:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tbh I don't give a f*ck if it's legal or not, if RMS would indeed manage to force hw manufs to not provide drivers for linux anymore since they can't do that, I rather kick RMS' ass than blame any munuf | 10:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | manuf* | 10:13 |
| FIQ | [09:10:22] <natsukao> you must be grateful to RMS, without GNU'S Not Unix Project, LTB, could not develop linux kernel | 10:13 |
| natsukao | “Free software” https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”. | 10:13 |
| FIQ | in fact, he could just have used another variant of C not relying on GCC | 10:14 |
| natsukao | Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software: | 10:14 |
| psycho_oreos | FSF afaik provided userland stuff.. Linus Torvalds was the one that wrote the kernel. | 10:14 |
| natsukao | The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). | 10:14 |
| natsukao | The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. | 10:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | natsukao: please stop spreading truism | 10:14 |
| psycho_oreos | Without userland, kernel would be useless.. without kernel userland is redundant. Same diff. | 10:14 |
| natsukao | The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). | 10:14 |
| natsukao | The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. | 10:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | are you ready? | 10:15 |
| natsukao | where is the restriction are speaking about ? | 10:15 |
| natsukao | you are free to use GPLv2, or if you want later yo can use GPLv3, nobody is forcing to use GPL Licenses | 10:16 |
| FIQ | natsukao: are you a missioner sent by rms to convert people into his religion? | 10:16 |
| FIQ | because your reasoning principe is very similar | 10:16 |
| natsukao | but anyone is free to choce the license he prefeers: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html | 10:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and nobody here needs lessons about GPL and the philosophy behind it | 10:17 |
| psycho_oreos | Besides, #maemo was never really about FSF :p | 10:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 10:17 |
| natsukao | studies on licenses where done with RMS and Eben Moglen, Professor Law to the University and attorney in FSF.ORG | 10:17 |
| psycho_oreos | If we're all FSF followers, we'd be cursed for using maemo products. | 10:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | natsukao: please stop spamming the channel with irrelevant statements and factoids | 10:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we all know the internet and how to google | 10:18 |
| FIQ | I don't have anything against rms or his ideals, but the way he (at least used to) force it into people isn't likable | 10:18 |
| FIQ | and now you're doing that | 10:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 10:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | annoying | 10:19 |
| natsukao | so before to speak about licenses, think that attorneys, worked for the respect of software, developed from a community, so that a corporation can't modify and use for itself, as did Cisc Systems, when finished in Court for violations of GPL | 10:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | &/opm | 10:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | take it to #fsf, preach to the choir there please, not here | 10:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thinking about that project to actually place a small microcontroller and a muxer and a SPI flashrom on GTA04, to make RMS happy regarding WLAN module firmware upload during boot which been considered violating dunnowhat, I could still start headdesking | 10:25 |
| FIQ | lol | 10:26 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 gonna publish recipe for tea cookies, under TCL (tea cookie licence), and gonna sue everybody who dares to eat such cookies while drinking coffee instead of tea | 10:33 | |
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| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: lol | 10:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if Nokia had used kernel driver module blobs to make maemo work on their devices, we were waaaaay better off now, since RE of a kernel module is way easier than RE of crappy .so | 10:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but thanks to Stallman who thinks he can force manufacturers to disclose their intellectual property that often is their only warranty for keeping their business model intact, we now have blobs all over the place and nobody any happier than a few years ago | 10:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and even worse: we (the hackers) have to use that hugest virus ever (from Redmond) now, to RE many hardware drivers that are no longer supported at all under linux | 10:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and THATS a real PITA | 10:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *maybe* would RE a driver for some hw I need to use, when it had a linux driver blob. I definitely won't install that wincrap on my machines to RE the windriver for that HW | 10:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not even when using cygwin ;-P | 10:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on a sidenote: Harald Welte is a friend of mine, I don't need lessons about what GPL does good for FOSS | 10:51 |
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| divVerent | yes, that IS true | 10:52 |
| divVerent | there is a reason why many people prefer BSD licenses... the GPL just is going too far in some ways | 10:52 |
| divVerent | which is the very reason why Linus did this license change (the EXPORT_GPL story) | 10:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, exactly this story | 10:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gnu brainfart | 10:53 |
| divVerent | and I can't say whether EXPORT_GPL would stand in court | 10:57 |
| divVerent | but it's a clear declaration of intention | 10:57 |
| divVerent | I actually would WANT the linking restriction of the GPL to fall | 10:57 |
| divVerent | if you WANT to be that protective, it doesn't really help either | 10:57 |
| divVerent | see how Nokia worked around GPL | 10:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 10:57 |
| divVerent | you need AGPL to effectively impose such restrictions | 10:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 10:57 |
| divVerent | too bad we never had any cases regarding GPL linking in courts | 10:58 |
| divVerent | they were all about supplying the source for "unmodified" parts, or clearly combiend works | 10:58 |
| divVerent | e.g. opaque router firmware blobs | 10:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | incl netfilters | 10:59 |
| divVerent | yes | 10:59 |
| divVerent | the question is | 10:59 |
| divVerent | a party who was sued for netfilter use... | 10:59 |
| divVerent | what if they had compiled it as module only | 10:59 |
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| divVerent | and then released source of the modules only? | 10:59 |
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| divVerent | THEN the linkage case could happen :P | 10:59 |
| divVerent | but no sane company would do that | 11:00 |
| divVerent | that clause is grey area from both sides | 11:00 |
| divVerent | it all stands on falls with whether a program linking to a lib becomes a combined work with the lib even if the linkage is dynamic | 11:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's 100% nonsensical and basically useless to achieve what it planned to achieve | 11:00 |
| divVerent | some even believe that linking via ld-linux.so is "illegal" but dlopen is "legal" | 11:00 |
| divVerent | even though it's the same mechanism, just another time | 11:00 |
| divVerent | IMHO, if you go by the letter of the GPL, dlopen is just as illegal... | 11:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sophism | 11:01 |
| divVerent | but the whole clause may just as well collapse when actually tried in court | 11:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or simple stupidity | 11:01 |
| divVerent | simply by the judge saying "This isn't a combined work, and it's up to copyright, not a license, to define what a combined work is and what not"\ | 11:01 |
| divVerent | like, what if I made two licenses... | 11:02 |
| divVerent | one says "A can use B and the whole becomes a combined work" | 11:02 |
| divVerent | and other says | 11:02 |
| divVerent | "When A uses B, these two remain separate works" | 11:02 |
| divVerent | the GPL is attempting to say the former | 11:03 |
| divVerent | but everyone knows how grey this is, which is why it was never tried in court. Nobody wants to pay that risk. | 11:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, this is nonsense. It targets at forbidding non-FOSS software on linux | 11:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd shpoot everybody successfully implementing such policy | 11:04 |
| divVerent | yes | 11:04 |
| divVerent | e.g. what if the glibc were GPL? | 11:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 11:04 |
| divVerent | personally I adhere strictly to GPL in my projects where I can't avoid it... but don't like it | 11:04 |
| divVerent | actually, if glibc were GPL, it probably would get watered down that this doesn't apply to POSIX interfaces in the library :) | 11:04 |
| divVerent | just like a GPL program can link to libGL.so just fine | 11:05 |
| divVerent | EVEN if on the end user's system the libGL is nvidia's | 11:05 |
| divVerent | that's generally accepted on the grounds that the libGL interface is a standard interface with multiple independent implementations | 11:05 |
| divVerent | but - SO IS THE LINUX KERNEL SYSCALL INTERFACE :) | 11:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm absolutely OK with "normal" GPL. When I use GPL source and modify it, it must return to FOSS. But I will do the heck and let myself get forced to open up ACME-app just because it links to glibc (or any other lib) | 11:06 |
| divVerent | e.g. FreeBSD and Solaris implement Linux syscalls | 11:06 |
| divVerent | sure, you then instead won't release it at all | 11:06 |
| divVerent | BTW, what is EVEN MORE annoying and what hit Xonotic once... | 11:06 |
| divVerent | was libgmp changing from LGPL2 to LGPL3 | 11:07 |
| divVerent | while the engine Xonotic uses is under GPL2 | 11:07 |
| divVerent | we were SO lucky Carmack hadn't deleted the "or any later version" back then | 11:07 |
| divVerent | as GPL2 can't link to LGPL3 | 11:07 |
| divVerent | that is just insane | 11:07 |
| divVerent | EVERYTHING can link to LGPL3, except for GPL2 | 11:07 |
| divVerent | so we now have the funny situation that Xonotic binary builds are necessarily GPL3, except on OS X where they still are GPL2 as they there can use the OS-provided OpenSSL library for the same features | 11:08 |
| divVerent | (yes, OpenSSL has GPL-incompatible license, but if it comes with the OS, that's ok, says even the GPL) | 11:08 |
| divVerent | the main reason why I did this though was that it's hell to compile libgmp on OS X | 11:08 |
| divVerent | we now are ready to go away from libgmp any time though... as libtomsfastmath (WTFPL, IIRC) is also supportedf | 11:09 |
| divVerent | and why would we want to ditch gmp? because the FSF screwed up | 11:09 |
| divVerent | making two of their own licenses needlessly incompatible | 11:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I got better things to do in my active time than to deal with this nonsensical GPL stuff, just to give RMS an orgasm | 11:09 |
| FIQ | [09:46:48] <DocScrutinizer05> and even worse: we (the hackers) have to use that hugest virus ever (from Redmond) now, to RE many hardware drivers that are no longer supported at all under linux - hm? | 11:10 |
| divVerent | they're not even following the GPL on their own | 11:10 |
| divVerent | so why should we :) | 11:10 |
| divVerent | I mean... fsf.org offers files (or was it gnu.org) | 11:10 |
| divVerent | that are under the GPL | 11:10 |
| divVerent | but without providing any source | 11:10 |
| divVerent | I called them out on it via email, and all they told me was "no idea, the original author didn't give us source" | 11:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: guess how many companies stopped linux support all together, instead of disclosing their driver code as Stallman hoped to force them to do | 11:11 |
| divVerent | http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.html | 11:11 |
| divVerent | A version by the band Zweitgolf: free_software_song_sunnata.ogg, released under the GPL | 11:11 |
| divVerent | No source, no excuse :P | 11:11 |
| divVerent | not even a wav file... | 11:12 |
| divVerent | and THEY want to be taken serious | 11:12 |
| divVerent | I'm sure Zweitgolf would have given them a "source file" if they had asked. | 11:12 |
| divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: right... and it's not even just about company secrets | 11:13 |
| divVerent | we can agree that "company secrets" of this kind are bad and SHOULD be stamped out, BUT... | 11:13 |
| divVerent | the fault often isn't even with the company making the device | 11:13 |
| divVerent | but with some company three layers down the line which made a chip on the card | 11:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 11:14 |
| divVerent | to release sources of the whole device, THAT company would have to be asked to release source... and they would | 11:14 |
| divVerent | for a price | 11:14 |
| divVerent | this easily would double or triple all hardware prices now | 11:14 |
| divVerent | OTOH I don't get why a driver for hardware HAS to contain any "secrets" | 11:14 |
| FIQ | [10:11:21] <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: guess how many companies stopped linux support all together, instead of disclosing their driver code as Stallman hoped to force them to do | 11:14 |
| FIQ | yay for backfiring results | 11:15 |
| divVerent | the firmware for the hardware, sure | 11:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and evem more silly: all those firmware sources are *absolutely* worthless junk without comprehensive hw docs | 11:15 |
| divVerent | FIQ: backfiring? It's not like Stallman endorses Linux anyway. | 11:15 |
| divVerent | Hurd is soon gonna be ready... | 11:15 |
| divVerent | with 2 drivers. | 11:15 |
| jaska | haha | 11:15 |
| divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: yes | 11:15 |
| divVerent | what we REALLY need for firmware blobs is NOT sources | 11:15 |
| divVerent | the GPL doesn't even demand that | 11:15 |
| divVerent | we just need to be able to distribute them legally | 11:15 |
| FIQ | divVerent: oh yeah and I'm sure a lot of people will use it | 11:16 |
| divVerent | especially how the FW upload system on Linux works, the firmware and the driver are very independent | 11:16 |
| divVerent | FIQ: absolutely | 11:16 |
| divVerent | I will put Hurd on my Nexus 4 when it comes out | 11:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (distribute) absolutely | 11:16 |
| divVerent | also, I don't get Stallman there | 11:17 |
| divVerent | why are firmware blobs that are uploaded to RAM "evil" | 11:17 |
| divVerent | and firmware blobs that are burnt on EPROM "good"? | 11:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N*F*C | 11:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it''s idiotic | 11:18 |
| divVerent | or even PROM :) | 11:18 |
| divVerent | it's a fact, any hardware contains "secrets" even if it uses no uploadable firmware blobs | 11:18 |
| divVerent | I can see why he wants people to prefer Linux distros containing only free applications and drivers... | 11:19 |
| divVerent | but I see nothing wrong with firmware blobs | 11:19 |
| divVerent | if there is anything, then tell me ONE e.g. sound card with free firmware | 11:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | RMS even speculates and assumes a damn lot when he claims that "firmware2 is any software at all, and he's even more insane when he thinks we could get a source for that which is telling us anything. Maybe the the whole shite been developed in assembler, eh? | 11:20 |
| divVerent | probably the SB16? Yes, you can't flash it, you don't upload a FW file. But what about the DSP itself? The SB16 has ROM chips on them, where is THEIR source? | 11:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or even in hex | 11:20 |
| divVerent | well, firmware "tends to be software" | 11:20 |
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| divVerent | but yes, can have been developed in hex :P | 11:20 |
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| divVerent | I wonder if he's ever seen a FPGA though :) | 11:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly no idea what's a FPGA | 11:20 |
| jaska | i guess hed want the verilog for any fpgas :) | 11:21 |
| jaska | or whatever language they used | 11:21 |
| divVerent | especially for these, it's hard to say if what you "burn" there is settings, or software | 11:21 |
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| divVerent | jaska: IF they used it :P | 11:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jaska: sure, and the source for the compiler as well | 11:21 |
| divVerent | GPL says "preferred form for making modifications to it" | 11:21 |
| divVerent | Here's a troll method to generate source: | 11:22 |
| divVerent | ship the empty file | 11:22 |
| divVerent | GPL explicity says you don't have to give away the compiler | 11:22 |
| divVerent | so your "compiler" is a program ignoring its input outputting the file | 11:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, the cmdline defines prank | 11:22 |
| divVerent | hehe, or that | 11:22 |
| jaska | write everything in turing tarpit languages? | 11:22 |
| divVerent | jaska: you mean verilog? :) | 11:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cat hugeprog.c -> x | 11:23 |
| divVerent | BTW, recently read about a funny turing tarpit :P | 11:23 |
| divVerent | even without self modifying code, x86 mov + jmp is turing complete | 11:23 |
| divVerent | use one range for values, another for addresses, but do have RAM in the "values area"... | 11:24 |
| divVerent | then mov bx, [A]; mov [bx], 0; mov bx, [B]; mov [bx], 1; mov bx, [A]; mov ax, [bx] | 11:25 |
| jaska | isnt the code in this case combination of mov and the data? | 11:25 |
| divVerent | would put 0 in ax if A != B, 1 if A == B | 11:25 |
| divVerent | yes | 11:25 |
| divVerent | but the data can be initialized | 11:25 |
| divVerent | see this example :P | 11:25 |
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| divVerent | you can set up your data with lots of initial movs | 11:25 |
| divVerent | basically, they wrote an universal turing machine with just mov and jmp | 11:25 |
| divVerent | one final jmp at the end back to the start, as the only looping construct there is | 11:26 |
| divVerent | but my favorite esoteric turing-complete language is the single instruction machine | 11:26 |
| divVerent | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer | 11:26 |
| jaska | i wonder how efficient an oisc hardware would be | 11:27 |
| divVerent | it's kinda bad to L1 cache :) | 11:27 |
| jaska | your l1 cache is your register file | 11:28 |
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| HRH_H_Crab | 20:35:59 < HRH_H_Crab> i worry that idimmu has got a potty next to him. | 11:35 |
| HRH_H_Crab | 20:36:14 < HRH_H_Crab> and a growing pile of pizza boxes and drinks packaging | 11:35 |
| HRH_H_Crab | 20:37:06 < jesterina> let's not kid ourselves, he's cut a hole in the sofa and put the potty under it | 11:35 |
| HRH_H_Crab | oops | 11:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: (MWKN twitter) FPTF gaining unexpected momentum, thanks to extraordinarily dedicated and inspired work of jonwil, Pali, freemangordon, nicolai: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1375221 | 12:00 |
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| Mac3 | hah!!! | 12:16 |
| Mac3 | haaaaaaaaaaaa!! | 12:16 |
| Mac3 | got it :) | 12:16 |
| Mac3 | i think i just got lucky tho lol | 12:16 |
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| Mac3 | hope i can replicate it later | 12:19 |
| Mac3 | but so far so good | 12:19 |
| Mac3 | hm | 12:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 12:52 |
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| Mac3 | hi | 12:58 |
| Mac3 | DocScrutinizer05: i'm using pan nw | 12:58 |
| Mac3 | now | 12:58 |
| Mac3 | seems to work | 12:59 |
| Mac3 | won't work withthe ms stire | 12:59 |
| Mac3 | but that isn't a deal breaker and probably isn't related | 12:59 |
| Mac3 | for whatever reason i did have to install pc connectivity | 13:02 |
| Mac3 | no idea why | 13:02 |
| Mac3 | but it adds bnep0 to interfaces | 13:02 |
| Mac3 | then i was able t see the an device in windws rt in the surface | 13:02 |
| Mac3 | pan | 13:02 |
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| jake42 | jaa | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nee | 13:18 |
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| jake42 | DocScrutinizer05: :-P | 15:21 |
| jonwil | bah, this Gentoo emerge is going to take forever (assuming my Gentoo box doesn't crap out in the mean time) | 15:24 |
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| Macer | well... later on i will see if i can get the pan working again | 15:36 |
| Macer | was so happy when it worked | 15:36 |
| Macer | i should try to get it to work with the android tablet | 15:36 |
| kerio | run emerge on the tablet | 15:54 |
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| dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6412313 | 18:42 |
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| dos1 | (that's the best headline I could do in 80-chars limit :P) | 18:42 |
| dos1 | och, looks like it's not available yet to outside world | 18:45 |
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| jean_brat | Hi guys .. i hace microsoft bluetooth keyboard 5000, it works perfectly with btinput in nokia n9, however it does not work in (extkbd) n900, During the pairing the number Keys works perfectly fine but after that only the character keys are functional, y and z are interchanged..i have tried almost all the layouts, all seems to have the same result...and same set of keys are not functional.. | 19:55 |
| jean_brat | is ithe issue with extkbd? Or is there any specific layout i can try for this | 19:55 |
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| kerio | jean_brat: qzerty is a sign of a weird layout | 20:16 |
| jean_brat | kerio, i am trying all the layout there is no difference in any.. all they keyboard gives me the same result | 20:23 |
| mashina | non-qwerty: the sign of a country having NIH layout syndrome | 20:24 |
| jean_brat | f4 pulls of the save and exit menu in the note pad f7 and f8 pulls the volume up and down | 20:25 |
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| kerio | that's kind of intended | 20:25 |
| kerio | the volume keys *are* f7 and f8 | 20:25 |
| jean_brat | none of the number keys .. including ~ and [ ] ; ? > < n works | 20:26 |
| jean_brat | in any layout.. i tried random configurations | 20:26 |
| jean_brat | NIH layout ? i din get you | 20:28 |
| jean_brat | strangly.. how come all the keyboard layout is giving me the same result? | 20:29 |
| jean_brat | was hoping .. atleast the thinkpad layout in the list should work | 20:30 |
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| jean_brat | hey.. strangely.. if i hold the keys for little longer its behaving exact same as N900's querty keypad. like if i hold A for 2 seconds it becomes * | 20:37 |
| divVerent | BTW... I noticed... | 20:39 |
| divVerent | I asked a few days ago whether on ecan map volume to the builtin keyboard | 20:39 |
| divVerent | so I tried mapping keys to f7/f8 | 20:39 |
| divVerent | this didn't work though... or rather | 20:39 |
| divVerent | it works for font size in terminal | 20:39 |
| divVerent | so I thought I was happy :P | 20:40 |
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| divVerent | but it does not work for volume | 20:40 |
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| divVerent | but that's interesting, if for you on a BT keyboard F7 DOES change volume | 20:40 |
| jean_brat | yes.. but none of my first row keys (~!@#$% 1234 ) and all the special characters are not working | 20:41 |
| jean_brat | how do u map the keys? | 20:42 |
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| jean_brat | some one please give me some hint.. i don know where to look | 20:45 |
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| jean_brat | some how ths extkbd is not overriding the default n900 keypad layout,, so all the character keys behaves the same way.. | 20:58 |
| jean_brat | however how few the functions keys are working is still a mystery | 20:58 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | ~boot-process | 23:00 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~bootprocess | 23:00 |
| sixwheeledbeast | mmm there was apost somewhere.... | 23:01 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~listkeys boot | 23:02 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'boot' by key (16 of 170): /boot/params ;; @reboot ;; barboot ;; boot animation ;; bootblaster ;; bootldr changelog ;; bootldr howto ;; bootloader you use ;; bootsplash ;; booty rap ;; etherboot ;; gui yaboot ;; i recently learned that "load usercode" in bootldr ;; leo-bootkit ;; ofboot ;; pornoboots. | 23:02 |
| dos1 | ~pornoboots | 23:02 |
| infobot | methinks pornoboots is http://lugwv.be/Members/vipe/pornoboots | 23:02 |
| sixwheeledbeast | o.O | 23:03 |
| RiD | wat | 23:03 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ah... | 23:04 |
| sixwheeledbeast | infobot: boot-process is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=87959 | 23:04 |
| infobot | okay, sixwheeledbeast | 23:04 |
| dos1 | ~booty rap | 23:05 |
| * infobot dances | 23:05 | |
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| RiD | are you the new infobot snacker, do | 23:07 |
| RiD | dos1 | 23:07 |
| dos1 | ~botsnack | 23:08 |
| infobot | :), dos1 | 23:08 |
| sixwheeledbeast | can't have it idling ;) | 23:08 |
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| Pali | ~seen DocScrutinizer05 | 23:34 |
| Pali | ~seen DocScrutinizer51 | 23:34 |
| infobot | docscrutinizer05 is currently on #maemo #n9 #harmattan #meego #openmoko #maemo-ssu #infobot #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 2696 messages. Is idling for 8h 52m 59s, last said: 'been like 19ct/min back when'. | 23:34 |
| infobot | docscrutinizer51 is currently on #maemo #harmattan #maemo-ssu #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 22 messages. Is idling for 4d 4h 27m 46s, last said: 'where?'. | 23:34 |
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| dos1 | http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/09/19/1834224/nokias-elop-set-to-receive-25-million-bonus-after-acquisition | 23:40 |
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| RiD | trojan horse | 23:46 |
| RST38h | I have a problem with the amount | 23:47 |
| RST38h | WHY IS IT NOT $30mil??? | 23:48 |
| RiD | why should it be 30? | 23:48 |
| dos1 | 30 pieces of silver? | 23:49 |
| RST38h | yep | 23:49 |
| dos1 | seems legit | 23:49 |
| dos1 | well, let's hope Elop becomes new MS CEO | 23:50 |
| dos1 | Macromedia... Nokia... now it's time for Microsoft :) | 23:50 |
| RST38h | Yes, I am awaiting that | 23:50 |
| RST38h | It is time for Microsoft to jump into the water | 23:51 |
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