IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2013-09-18

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RiDhow can i create a symlink in .sounds that redirects to a specific folder in my memory card?00:05
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Pali$ ln -s /media/mmc1/file .sounds/file00:07
wndif you haven't created a new filesystem on MyDocs, you don't00:07
wndit uses vfat by defalt, which doesn't support fancy things such as symlinks00:08
dos1you can symlink *to* vfat00:08
dos1you cannot do that *on* it00:08
RiDi guess that will do it.00:08
wndyou could bind-mount a proper fs over .sounds :-)00:09
RiDoh wait00:09
RiDdoes symlink work on fat32?00:09
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RiDyeah it doesn't. Guess I'll have to live with it - too lazy to reformat mSD card, since it's sole purpose is to store & listen to music00:15
dos1RiD: vfat == fat3200:16
dos1if you want to point to memory card, then it doesn't matter which fs it has00:17
dos1what matters is which fs is where you want to place that link00:17
RiDwell i just wanted it to be sort of a simple "shortcut" to another folder, so that I don't have to separatedly browse mSD music on rockbox00:18
dos1where is .sounds? in /home?00:18
RiD/home/MyDocs/.sounds i guess00:18
dos1MyDocs is vfat, so it won't work00:19
RiDi noticed00:19
dos1you would have to reformat MyDocs, not mSD card00:19
RiDbut the other way could work for me too - i can set rockbox file browser default location00:19
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RiDhm, maybe if I do a folder full of symlinks to these, on a different fs?00:20
dos1it should work00:21
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Win7MacHi there!01:05
Win7MacWould you agree that option #2 here is the right way to go to install grub on a Laptop with 1 SSD for Ubuntu+Win7 and 1 HDD for data?:
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dos1DocScrutinizer05: got some visits with referers02:14
DocScrutinizer05patent trolls?02:14
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dos1google translate: "Finland's leading investment and economic debate focuses on economically and ideologically totally independent forum."02:15
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dos1but seems to be available only for registered02:16
DocScrutinizer05still unclear what to think about it02:16
dos1so dunno what's inside about neo90002:16
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dos1since website update there were 18 referrals (for comparition: 25 from mwkn, 23 from slashdot)02:17
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DocScrutinizer05ooh, mwkn02:17
* DocScrutinizer05 forgot to check recent issue02:18
dos139 from facebook and 181 from tmo :D02:18
GeneralAntillesWoo, MWKN02:18
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DocScrutinizer05ms which killed nokia02:20
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* DocScrutinizer05 just started to wonder why Jolla can sell a 300EUR preorder tshirt when Neo900 worries about how to get 15k bucks to develop prototypes02:22
dos1there are also referrals from various blog posts, mostly in foreign languages02:22
dos1this being the only mysterious one02:22
DocScrutinizer05I mean, what jolla promises to deliver eventually (basically nothing specific at all), we can promise just as well02:24
GeneralAntillesMore modern?02:24
GeneralAntillesbacking of a real company?02:24
DocScrutinizer05well, let's be honest - for now "walk on, nothing to see here!" on Neo900.org02:24
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dos1hmm, trooli means trawl in Finnish, so I guess it's some news robot or something02:25
DocScrutinizer05err wait, 100EUR preorder02:25
DocScrutinizer05dos1: google it, there must be something known about this site02:26
dos1ok, "news bot" is a red herring02:28
dos1"The country's leading stock market experts gathered to it anonymously on a daily basis. If you want to succeed and make the first miljoonasi quickly as is the right address. Does not require an email or a name, so you can chat with the investment problems anonymously!"02:28
dos1(gtranslate of course)02:28
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dos1I wonder what "leading stock market experts" would want to discuss about neo900 :o02:28
dos1well, something's fishy there:
dos1I guess we need someone who knows Finnish to get proper answer :P02:30
* dos1 can sing Ievan Polkka, but that's it :)02:31
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dos1dunno much about humppa, but I definitely cannot dance :D02:34
wnderm...  "How can I hook up with a weathy gentleman at  They're wealthy and smart; just look at their huge 4x4s and booze cruises to Tallinn.  They save loads of money that way, and I'd definitely have use for that money!  [image link]  I suppose they wouldn't have a poor, low-income women?"02:34
wndwhat a load of...02:34
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wndit's hard to translate badly written text that's as clueless as that02:38
DocScrutinizer05thaks anyway X-D02:38
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KilrooSo I actually noticed today who you are on the forums, Doc.02:39
RiDKilroo haha, it wasn't instant for me either02:39
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DocScrutinizer05Kilroo: could you tell me? i'm wondering since long time who i am02:40
KilrooI know the feeling. I have no idea who I am.02:40
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DocScrutinizer05let's ask my darling infobot02:41
infobotjoerg is probably a natural born EE, ex HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, now mainly involved in maintenance of maemo and N900. Usually known as DocScrutinizer02:41
dos1you're wealthy and smart, just look at your huge 4x4s! but I suppose you wouldn't have a... wait, no, stop02:42
infoboti guess docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko02:42
infoboti guess dos is (Disk Operating System) This OS is what got it all started for PCs.  Denial of Service...02:42
KilrooHooray cross-referencing...02:42
RiDyou have huge 4x4's?02:44
dos1they're weathy gentleman at #maemo :)02:45
KilrooI still read 4x4 and think of a wooden beam before I think of a vehicle...02:45
RiDi want to know what kind of 4x4's you own, Doc02:45
dos1RiD: read scrollback, I think I just trolled you :D02:46
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RiDeh wat02:47
RiDyou messed up my brain02:47
dos1yw :)02:51
RiDsee, you keep doing it02:53
dos1I think I'd better go to sleep now02:54
dos1before I mess up more innocent brains02:54
RiDi am not innocent02:57
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jonwilQuestion, would a "this is the problem with audio on the Neo900 and these are the solutions" type thing be better on the wiki or the forum?03:28
FIQhuh, that's kinda weird03:43
FIQran fsck from BM, didn't do a thing apparently.. tried fsck -nv on the /opt afterwards when in maemo - considered clean, all fine and good03:44
FIQthen I open xchat, and it can't open its' logs, I check, they're corrupted.. and now fsck -nv tells more or less that the entire fs is broken03:44
FIQI don't really understand what fsck.ext2 really does (beyond attempting to repairr the file system) as I don't know how EXT works03:45
FIQbut that... doesn't make much sense to me03:45
FIQah well, guess I'll have to restore root+opt to last backup as usual03:46
FIQwhatever goes wrong with the file system, it's ALWAYS the xchat logs03:46
FIQis there a filesize limit? should I back up my logs at the computer and restart them from scratch?03:47
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FIQit's possible that this will solve all my issues regarding corruption but I dunno03:48
FIQxchatlogs is 363M (or something around it - pretty much all logs are corrupt atm as I haven't restored yet), /opt has 189M (i.e. 9%) free.. dunno what's safe and not03:49
FIQit's the biggest part of the /opt for me by far03:50
mashinaholy shit, you need al those logs on device?03:54
mashinaput them on an sd card and wipe your logs03:54
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mashinalike scrollback is enough log for me03:55
FIQno I don't need them on device at all03:55
FIQI do like preserving the logs though03:55
FIQshould probably backup them somewhere else03:56
mashinaeven an sd card03:56
FIQafter all they're like 2 years old or something03:56
mashinai never save logs03:56
mashinaexcept xchat scrollback but that has a limiot afaik03:57
FIQI always do, everywhere I run a client, unless I forgot to :P03:57
FIQbut yeah, should get them somewhere so they'll not hurt the fs over and over03:57
FIQforcing me to go to backup..03:58
mashinai have a bouncer, but it's a specialized software that only has desktop client03:58
mashinacould be easily ported though03:58
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FIQspecialized bouncer...? why03:58
FIQI use ZNC myself03:58
mashinagtk# is ported to mameo03:58
FIQNot the logging part of it though, but it should be trivial to turn on03:58
mashinai use smuxi - it feels a lot more elegant than a traditionl bnc03:58
FIQthen I wouldn't need logging at all :P03:58
FIQ(besides that znc instance)03:59
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SpeedEvilquassel is another option04:02
mashinaquassel and smuxi are two similar clients04:02
mashinai prefer smuxi myself as i support my C# on unix brethereb after rms led lynch mobs thinned their numbers04:03
mashinaalso dev is cool and i help him with bugs04:03
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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: wiki, definitely04:19
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jonwilNow creating
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jonwilGoing to state the goal, the problem and the theoretical solutions04:48
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Macerhm. my ms surface is showing up today10:18
Macerhope it can bt tether to the n90010:18
Maceralthough it says it can adhoc so i'll believe it when i see it10:19
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kerioPali: mmh, can't bme replacement charge from a usb host when g_ether is loaded?11:47
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Palikerio: do not know, usb gadget must ask for 500mA from usb host11:50
kerioi thought all usb gadget modules did that11:50
Palionly those which have specified it in source file11:50
Palior maybe it is possible to change also via sysfs - but do not know11:51
Palikerio: and patches for gadget drivers are rejected, read what I wrote to #maemo-ssu11:51
keriodaaaaamn, usb networking is so much faster than wifi or bt pan11:52
keriothe lack of lag is the most surprising thing11:52
Wizzupstill randomly get broken pipes though11:53
keriomaybe your pipes11:53
keriomy pipes are stronk11:53
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keriook, this is silly12:14
kerioi synchronized my n900's clock this morning12:15
kerioand now it's at -1.5s again12:15
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sledgesdoes n900 TV out cable have any pins mixed up?12:49
sledgesor I can use a standard RGB tulips and 3+1 pin stereo jack?12:49
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Macerkerio: but then you need a cable connected12:58
Macerwho wants that? it isn't 2003 anymore12:58
keriowell ofc12:58
kerioon the other hand12:58
kerioyou can actually see you typing as you type12:58
Maceri was using bt dun a few minutes ago12:59
Macerit wasnt laggy at all12:59
pabs3DocScrutinizer05: does the GTA04 motherboard have all the same kinds of hardware as the N900? (fm transmitter etc)13:04
entitledcool, was that N900 that featured in breaking bad S05E14?13:06
entitled"your fancy phone"13:06
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oooaaaooohi guys ive installed a couple of apps that dont seem to show up in the app screen; other than command line is there a graphical way to find them?15:43
oooaaaoooalso is "faster app manager" any good?15:43
jonwil"faster app manager" is NOT good15:45
jonwilor so says the experts around here every time someone brings up the subject :)15:45
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oooaaaooohow do i scan through installed apps that dont show up in the app screen15:47
gomiamwell, FAM is quite helpful when you want to install many things at once, but it doesn't show all packages either15:47
gomiamoooaaaooo: I go the apt-cache search route :)15:47
oooaaaooogomiam: howbout ui? maybe an app?15:47
gomiamoooaaaooo: I don't remember if there is a version of synaptic for maemo...15:48
oooaaaooogomiam: does HAM have a installed apps menu?15:48
oooaaaooogomiam: :P15:48
inzmaemo - there's no app for that15:48
gomiamoooaaaooo: kinda, if you go to the uninstall section it shows what is installed15:49
oooaaaooogomiam: ok15:49
gomiamand yes, you can install synaptic on maemo (at least on n900)15:49
oooaaaooogomiam: oh?15:49
gomiamjust checked15:49
gomiamlet me see what the repository is15:49
gomiamit seems to be at  fremantle non-free15:50
gomiamits being non-free is a bit of a surprise thougfh15:50
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gomiamthe good part of it is you probably have it already available15:53
oooaaaoooi downloaded the sixaxis package and cant see any icon for it15:53
oooaaaooogomiam: what in the cat?15:54
gomiamoooaaaooo: synaptic, a GUI package manager for Debian and Ubuntu that seems to be available on Fremantle too15:55
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dos1DocScrutinizer05: GTA04 actually has IrDA16:01
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, thought as much16:01
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dos1there's just no kernel driver for it16:01
dos1Nikolaus pointed it out regarding table on website ;)16:02
DocScrutinizer05dunno if you need many drivers for SIR16:02
dos1yeah, it's probably easy, just no one has done it yet16:03
DocScrutinizer05SIR basically is "replace rs232 cable by a lightbeam", literally16:03
DocScrutinizer05just that the 1 bits are not 100% but 3/18 of a bit length iirc16:05
keriois it actually useful for anything except for universal remotes, nowadays?16:05
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DocScrutinizer05since it's on UART3 it is *very* convenient to get boot console ;-)16:06
kerioooh, neat16:07
kerio...if only i had *anything else* with irda16:07
keriocan't we get a usb serial console?16:08
keriolike, emulate a ftdi chip16:08
DocScrutinizer05I think that should get done in kernel16:08
kerioduring boot time?16:09
DocScrutinizer05btw USB can even do "true serial"16:09
DocScrutinizer05D+ = TX, D- = RX16:10
SpeedEvilOn n900 hardware?16:12
DocScrutinizer05I think that's a cpommon feature of USB cores16:13
DocScrutinizer05common even16:14
DocScrutinizer05maybe I'm wrong, coffee deficit16:17
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pabs3does GTA04 have FM?16:17
DocScrutinizer05USB specs list it as a standard mode16:17
DocScrutinizer05"even with RDS"16:18
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* RST38h moos16:19
DocScrutinizer05mooeerrks *cough*16:19
dos1N900 doesn't have RDS support in reciever, does it?16:20
DocScrutinizer05it has afaik16:21
DocScrutinizer05gta04: SI4721BG,  N900: SI4705(?)16:21
wndat least it can show channel info16:21
wndnot sure if that qualifies it as rds-capable, though16:22
dos1ok, I remember sending RDS via transmitter, just weren't sure if rx had it too16:22
DocScrutinizer05it does16:22
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DocScrutinizer05though *all* that audio stuff gives us some headache, since it's completely different between GTA04 and N90016:26
DocScrutinizer05but hey, nokia did it, we can do as well ;-)16:27
DocScrutinizer05tlv320aic34 is sourcable in million quatities and single chips16:27
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DocScrutinizer05give me some 30min  to wake up16:28
jonwilok :)16:28
DocScrutinizer05e.g. the SI4721BG is connected to SoC via McBSP16:29
* RST38h hides, will shut up now16:29
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: that's for next decade. You know the C64 also took ten years to come as chip in the joystick16:30
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jonwilSo basically the issues are whether our decompile of policy-settings-rx51 is accurate (and whether changes are required to reflect hardware/software differences), how we can decompile policy.dresc (and whether changes are required to reflect hardware/software differences), what to do about the cellular audio issue and whether pasr, alsa-policy-enforcement or pulseaudio-nokia need any changes...16:37 reflect hardware/software differences other than the cellular audio problem16:37
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Sysaxedwhat is neo90016:38
infobot[neo900] at, or at
Sysaxedholy shit, are you kidding me :O16:38
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DocScrutinizer05heh, I don't even know how to spell "kidding"16:42
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Sysaxedomg I'm about to start crying16:43
DocScrutinizer05why? about that waste of energy?16:43
DocScrutinizer05since many think it's exactly that16:43
Sysaxedshhh, let me dream a little bit!16:44
DocScrutinizer05hehe a new fan16:45
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DocScrutinizer05you will want to *read* the whole to get *really* excited. It gets better with every bit of additional info you receive16:46
jonwilNeo900 got another mention  on slashdot16:47
SysaxedI've always been a fan, but I was unable to see any future for n90016:47
DocScrutinizer05now there is16:47
n900-dkhow should one address an issue with the LTE chip in the neo900?16:48
DocScrutinizer05it's commonly considered that HARM and N9 been a move into the wrong direction, now we gonna correct this16:48
DocScrutinizer05n900-dk: an issue?16:49
DocScrutinizer05n900-dk: what issues do you have?16:49
pabs3DocScrutinizer05: time to submit it to /. and hackernews?16:49
n900-dkis doesn't support LTE on 800MHz16:50
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DocScrutinizer05pabs3: dos1 and me are about to do - though it seems somebody was faster than us? see above16:50
jonwilThat was just a comment in another thread16:50
jonwilWe need an actual story I guess16:50
DocScrutinizer05dos1, GeneralAntilles, and me will draft a nice thread starter post for /.16:51
pabs3I never actually used the N900, is the touchscreen good?16:51
n900-dkseveral European mobile operators have LTE on the 800MHz band, so it should be supported16:51
jonwilHey, if a Crapberry phone can get a story, surely a phone like the Neo900 can get a story16:51
HumpelstilzchenHi, just wanted to drop a "Happy to see plans for a n900 future"16:52
DocScrutinizer05the difference to gta02 panel is like the differnce between sweet buttercream and concrete16:52
Sysaxedpabs3: it is perfect16:52
jonwiln900-dk, if you can find an LTE module that supports the bands you need, that's available in small quantities and that is open enough for the Neo900, feel free to suggest16:52
DocScrutinizer05n900-dk: alas we don't have mucjh options but Option modules16:52
Humpelstilzchenpabs3: depends on if you prefer resistive or capacitive touch16:52
n900-dkthe Telit LE920 4g/LTE Module seems to have support for 800MHz16:53
jonwilbut I bet telit wont sell to you unless you are ordering big numbers16:54
Sysaxeddepends on if you're a potato-brained-WOOOWWW-MULTITOUCH-5-finger-gestures guy...16:54
DocScrutinizer05n900-dk: we did literally years of checking what options we have for cellular. It's about availability, documentation, price, size, whatnot else16:54
DocScrutinizer05Option is almost perfect16:54
dos1option is a best option for us :)16:55
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n900-dke.g. LTE on Deutsche Telekom will not be an option then16:55
n900-dkor TDC in Denmark16:55
DocScrutinizer05I checked the Telit modules and the company some 2 yeras ago, can't recall much about it right now. But rest ashured we try hard to find the best modem we can get, since it would be insane to go for anything less than the best option16:56
n900-dkbut pretty stupid to make the same mistake as Apple did with the iPhone5..16:56
DocScrutinizer05Option may come up with an improved modem module eventually, and i'd hope it is as pin compatible and drop-in replacement as the 601 and 609 and 80116:57
DocScrutinizer05maybe even a 801i16:57
DocScrutinizer05you dissolder the 801 and solder in the 801i, eh?16:58
jonwilSo does the Option modem support Quad Band GSM/EDGE?16:58
DocScrutinizer05of course if that 801i appears before we start MP, we will try hard to swap16:58
jonwilAnd does it support UMTS on 850, 900 and 2100?16:59
dos1n900-dk: well, it'd be hardly "an mistake" here, as that's our limitation, not concious design choice "let's not include LTE on 800!"16:59
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jake42jonwil: yes and yes (according to datasheet)17:00
n900-dkyeah you are right, but why loose a lot of potential users already from day 117:00
DocScrutinizer05because we have no better options17:00
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DocScrutinizer05there are other - maybe technically better - modules, but they are *huge*17:01
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DocScrutinizer05so what to do? swap battery lid for mugen cover?17:02
DocScrutinizer05to fit the telit in?17:02
n900-dkok, it was just a heads up, to make sure someone thought about this issue17:02
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DocScrutinizer05rest assured we think about such topics all day and night17:02
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DocScrutinizer05we're fanatic to build THE BEST product we could come up with17:03
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DocScrutinizer05every single missed out opportunity, every single little oopsie is a personal embarrassment to us17:04
dos1let's come up with 16-core 20GHz and 128 GB RAM, why loose potential users? :D17:04
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DocScrutinizer05anyway many thanks for bringing it up, please continue with input, we can use as much of it as we can get17:05
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DocScrutinizer05dos1: no sarcasm needed, n900-dk's concerns are perfectly sane and helpful as well17:06
jonwilIts not clear from that GTM801 page if it really supports UMTS900 or not17:06
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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: the get the datasheet17:06
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jonwilAbout the only band it doesn't support is 1700MHz UMTS for T-Mobile USA17:07
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DocScrutinizer05though: > >UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA/HSPA+/DCHSPA +800-850/1900/2100/AWS MHz (B1 /B2/B4/B5/B6) at 42 Mbps DL/5.7 6Mbps UL max speed<<17:07
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DocScrutinizer05B1 /B2/B4/B5/B6  is pretty specific17:08
jonwilThat seems to be a different page to the one I am looking at17:08
jonwilI am looking at which says "900"17:08
dos1looks like there are two versions17:09
DocScrutinizer05> >FDD-LTE :700/850/1900/AWS MHz (B2/B4 /B5/B17) at 100 Mbps DL/50 Mbps UL<<17:09
dos1800/900/1800/2100/2600 (E), 700/850/1900/AWS (U)17:09
dos1with LTE17:09
DocScrutinizer05given the multitude of bands the TX/RX section supports, and the fact that the difference between GSM, UMTS, and LTE is mostly the modulation/protocol, I guess it's just a question of firmware to support bands on radio-technology-Y that already are available freq at any other supported radio-technology of the module17:12
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* DocScrutinizer05 now starts to regret that he didn't work on radio stack when jobbing for ST-E17:13
jonwilSounds like Option has modems that do most of the frequency bands out there17:15
jonwilits just a matter of picking the one needed for your carrier/country17:15
DocScrutinizer05I would be surprised if they didn't17:15
jonwiland it seems like the different versions are probably hardware/software/pin compatible (it would be stupid to not do it that way)17:16
DocScrutinizer05anyway for even further supplementary info check the chipset: QualcomMDM9215/961517:16
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DocScrutinizer05Option for sure doesn't build teir own radio stack firmware for the chipset they use17:18
jonwilI suspect it should be possible to produce the Neo900 with options for different-frequency pin/hw/sw-compatible Option modems (in the same way as the old GTA02 had variants for different frequencies since it wasnt quad-band GSM)17:19
dos1the same way you'll be able to choose between 601, 609 and 80117:20
DocScrutinizer05but yeah, Roundsolutions says B1 /B2/B4/B5/B6  in one page and B1, B2, B5, B6, B8 in the other sheet, for UMTS17:22
jonwilwhat good is the CDMA choice given that the networks that support CDMA? (i.e. sprint, Verizon) wont let you activate any phone not originally sold for their network17:22
DocScrutinizer05not our problem ;-)17:23
jaskasounds like a good reason to sue them <.<17:23
jaskaand to not use cdma.. or buy phones from operators17:23
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: we just offer Option options (God, I love this pun)17:24
jaskaoptional options17:24
jonwilmakes sense, if it will fit on the PCB and if Option (or whoever resells Option parts) will sell it to you then there is no reason not to offer it as a choice :)17:25
DocScrutinizer05seems the Option GTM801 either has unclear fuzzy specs or actually comes in different variants17:25
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jonwilIt probably does come in multiple versions17:25
DocScrutinizer05roundsolutions is our reseller17:25
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DocScrutinizer05nice guys17:26
DocScrutinizer05they know us by name ;-)17:26
DocScrutinizer05they have awesome antennae as well, btw17:26
DocScrutinizer05and other nice stuff17:27
jonwilso are we going to be using the same bluetooth, FMRX and FMTX as the GTA04?17:32
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jonwilI would assume we would since I doubt we would be able to get hold of the BCM2048... :)17:35
jonwilBroadcomm isn't known for selling its parts in low volumes17:35
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DocScrutinizer05LOL, severe security threat in MSIE6..11, outlook, OE, windows mail, winXP..win817:50
freemangordonwhat a surprise :)17:50
jonwilI dont use Intercrap Exploder17:50
dos1totally unexpected17:50
jonwilI suspect at some point we may need to clone pulseaudio-nokia-* if we really want to move forward :P17:51
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: WLAN/BT and FM(rx|tx) are unchanged from GTA04, yes17:51
DocScrutinizer05as of now17:52
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DocScrutinizer05*maybe* we find a better WLAN(/BT) module that gives us less headache with SoC interface assignment17:52
DocScrutinizer05but chances for that are _very_ low17:53
DocScrutinizer05finding good WLAN modules is a PITA17:53
DocScrutinizer05about general audio, I have to have a loooong phonecall with Nikolaus about getting original N900 audio gear into Neo900, as that's the only way forward for FPTF project I see feasible17:55
HumpelstilzchenDocScrutinizer05: Not TI wilink like in panda?17:55
jonwilYes that is definatly the right way to go17:55
DocScrutinizer05read: tlv320aic3417:55
jonwilWill we be using TWL4030 (or something that has compatible audio bits)?17:56
DocScrutinizer05then we still face annoyances like Si4721BG connected audio to SoC via McBSP instead tof the analog way used in N900 for FMTX17:57
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jonwilFMTX/FMRX isn't as big a deal for audio since those subsystems seem somewhat separated from the rest of the audio system in Fremantle17:57
DocScrutinizer05seems twl4030 audio is flawed, according to ujXXXX-forgot-his-name17:57
DocScrutinizer05poor audio quality17:58
jonwilok, so N900 isn't using twl4030 audio bits?17:58
jonwilif it isn't then its not an issue for us17:59
DocScrutinizer05not at all afaik - verification pending17:59
DocScrutinizer05just a pity to "waste" all those functions we already paid for17:59
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DocScrutinizer05but when they are crap, we happily bin them18:00
jonwilI think the goal should be to make the Neo900 audio system as close to the N900 audio system as we can get18:00
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dos1add some contact pads for twl4030 so hw hackers will be able to use it18:00
dos1(dunno if it makes sense, just quick idea ;))18:00
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly - we CANNOT redesign _all_ that nasty audio blobs in fremantle to match a new hw18:01
DocScrutinizer05dos1: an excellent idea18:01
jonwilthere will still be a need for reverse engineering of N900 pulseaudio-nokia blobs to identify things18:01
jonwilor partial reverse engineering at least18:01
jonwilcellmo audio at least18:02
DocScrutinizer05well, that. yes18:02
jonwilRead what I wrote on the "audio" page on wiki18:02
jonwilthat covers our options and what we need to do going forward18:02
DocScrutinizer05I hope to plumb new cellmo in a way audio (ped) doesn't notice a difference18:02
kerioit's not like the phone part actually matters18:03
jonwilremember that pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice (and embedded static copy of libcmtspeech) talks very specific interface to BB5 modem18:03
jonwilhence why pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice is such a problem for us18:04
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: yes, I'm aware, and that will be a HUGE headache to us, but once we hacked that everything else will "just work"18:04
keriojust embed a ham radio :P18:04
keriowouldn't we tie ourselves to the fremantle dialer, this way?18:05
kerios/dialer/phone stack/ or something18:05
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: no, just as we are ot tied to fremantle dialer right now18:05
DocScrutinizer05you already can start a call via pnat ATD<any-number>18:06
DocScrutinizer05and end the call via ATH18:07
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: it's actually just about audio18:09
DocScrutinizer05basically about a virtual "soundcard"18:09
DocScrutinizer05and yes, basically cmt *should* be just another ALSA soundcard18:10
jonwilbut its not18:10
DocScrutinizer05alas it's not, in fremantle18:10
DocScrutinizer05in SHR I suggested that approach, and I think they adopted it or at least planned to adopt it in future18:11
jonwilI strongly suspect we will need to clone libcmtspeech/pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice (using the Meego/Harmattan bits to help with that). That or go with giant hacks sitting in the kernel to convert "BB5"18:12
jonwil"BB5" flavor audio into "option" flavor audio18:12
jonwilaudio and audio related commands18:12
DocScrutinizer05yep, either of those two18:12
DocScrutinizer05nobody said cmt will be easy18:13
jonwilcellular audio is now shaping up as the #1 hardest part of the entire FPTF project18:13
DocScrutinizer05but we *definitely* will get cmt to work, easily, when we don't care about fremantle/hildon integration and use our own dialer. That's an option for early POC show-off though. As well as for very-long-term goals to transform fremantle into something completely free18:14
DocScrutinizer05tbh I think fremantle audio is thorougly flawed by design, to start with. Alas we won't be able to replace it by something better or more open, at least not during next 6 months18:16
DocScrutinizer05then whole ped concept is one huge abomination18:17
DocScrutinizer05and PA is... well peottering. nuff said about that18:17
jonwilthe more I think about this, the more I suspect the list of packages we will need to reverse engineer or clone for the Neo900 is going to be larger than it looks at first glance18:18
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DocScrutinizer05hey, isn't that quite the opposite of what you said ~4 days ago?18:19
jonwilthat was 4 days ago before I looked deeper into this18:19
jonwilWhats the plan for camera? Use same cameras as N900? Use GTA04 camera? Use something else?18:19
DocScrutinizer05N900 cam18:19
dos1but before that, at the very beginning, you said the same as now :)18:19
DocScrutinizer05100% compatibility18:20
dos1jonwil: it's even on now :D18:20
jonwilok, in that case we can move the camera bits onto the "stuff we dont need to clone" list18:20
jonwilsince we are using identical cameras and camera interface (I assume OMAP3430 and 3730 camera interface bits are compatible...)18:21
dos1DocScrutinizer05: I decided to add screen details etc to the table, as people coming from Openmoko/OpenPhoenux community may also see Neo900 as upgrade for GTA04 (hw keyboard, bigger screen without bezel, camera etc.)18:22
DocScrutinizer05dos1: werner almesberger complained that the list comparing features is already a list of features and not a mere comparison, and thus he'd expect basics like screen etc there as well18:23
dos1or there may be people who skipped GTA04, but will want to upgrade GTA02 with Neo90018:23
dos1DocScrutinizer05: yup, seen that18:23
jonwilanyone know if 3430 and 3730 DSP bits are compatible?18:23
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: i'd hope cam IF is 100% compatible between 3430 and 3730, yes18:24
DocScrutinizer05same for DSP I hope18:24
dos1and when Nikolaus suggested including storage info, I've added everything that came to my mind to that list18:24
jonwilif camera IF isnt 100% compatible, I bet we can hide the differences in kernel drivers :)18:25
dos1if there's anything I missed feel free to ping me18:25
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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: [2013-09-18 15:59:25] <Pali> freemangordon: I moved et8ek8 firmware into kernel drive r[2013-09-18 15:59:45] <Pali> so driver does not need external "firmware" from userspace18:25
Palijust to note et8ek8 firmware file is only kernel C structure with some data18:26
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: (hide in kernel) yep, definitely. The original idea about FPTF18:26
dos1at some point I even had LEDs and buttons listed there, but then I realised it's starting to go into too much detail ;)18:26
Paliso it is not "real" firmware18:26
DocScrutinizer05dos1: we have a hard time finding a solution for the fast swap either18:28
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DocScrutinizer05it's largely unclear if those §32GB flash + 2GB RAM" eMMC chips actually have one bus for both, or a dedicated bus for each. The latter would render it useless for our purposes18:30
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: it's largely unclear if those "32GB flash + 2GB RAM" eMMC chips actually have one bus for both, or a dedicated bus for each. The latter would render it useless for our purposes18:30
n900-dkWhat could be a realistic ETA for the Neo900, if it will become a piece of hardware in the future?18:31
DocScrutinizer05mid of 201418:31
DocScrutinizer05maybe faster18:31
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DocScrutinizer05with first (still buggy) prototypes to show off coming up and of this year maybe18:33
DocScrutinizer05s/ an/ en/18:33
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: with first (still buggy) prototypes to show off coming up end of this year maybe18:33
jonwilAt this point I think the 5 closed packages likely to cause us the most headaches are pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice, policy-settings-rx51, mce, libsim0 and location-daemon with honorable mention to location-proxy, csd-call and csd-sms18:37
DocScrutinizer05dos1: you got no GTA04?18:37
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: sounds about right18:37
Humpelstilzchenis location-daemon needed for anything but nokia maps?18:38
jonwilits needed for all GPS apps18:38
jonwili.e. anything that talks GPS18:39
DocScrutinizer05maybe list them on a wiki page as section headlines, discussing in each section the way this "system" is entangled into fremantle, how it gets involved into Neo900 changes, and the impact it has when we won't tackle/fix it for Neo90018:39
Humpelstilzchenbut the other programms could be ported to gpsd..18:39
dos1DocScrutinizer05: nope, just GTA0218:40
DocScrutinizer05I elaborated on GPS somewhere18:41
dos1I can buy one 700 EUR phone if I really want to, but two of them is a bit too much :D18:41
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DocScrutinizer05just wondering who's available for testing fremantle ports to GTA04 platform18:43
cehtehmethinks 700eur is already far to much for what one gets :/18:44
DocScrutinizer05not that it gives us much of new knowledge18:44
cehtehanyway kudos to the project but i am out there, unless the price substantially drops18:44
DocScrutinizer05cehteh: well, that's your mileage18:44
DocScrutinizer05cehteh: alas price won't drop18:45
cehtehtoo bad18:45
DocScrutinizer05unless some chip and PCB manufs decide to give us stuff for free or at least at a pricetag they offer to customers buying 100000018:46
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DocScrutinizer05or HEY, until WE buy 100000018:46
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cehtehi wonder if you should approach other projects who have better connections, olpc, raspberry pi foundation etc18:47
DocScrutinizer05nobody has18:47
DocScrutinizer05unless they have exactly same BOM as we do18:48
DocScrutinizer05they as well would need to buy 200 units DM3730 SoC18:48
DocScrutinizer05and they usually don't get the discount they got for that other chip they bought 1 mio18:49
DocScrutinizer05when they buy only 20018:49
cehtehi know18:49
DocScrutinizer05so it makes no difference18:49
cehtehdo you have some supply for case/screen meanwhile .. i think a lot cases/screens are aging and detorating18:50
DocScrutinizer05well, there's fleabay. We got no "better" source yet18:51
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DocScrutinizer05case (strictly the shell only, incl keymat) is ~17EUR18:51
DocScrutinizer05LCD is ~2318:52
DocScrutinizer05you can get all sorts of combinations, like slide mech with FPC (ribbon) and LCD18:52
DocScrutinizer05tbh we only did a cursory scan for all that stuff so far18:53
DocScrutinizer05for sure getting a used (broken?) N900 and swap the MoBo is the better alternative for our customers. But many don't want to do this18:54
brolin_empeyfreemangordon: Pali: Any news regarding my 2 kernel-power patches?18:56
DocScrutinizer05fun detail: often the combi is cheaper than one of the parts it contains18:56
Palibrolin_empey: sorry did not have time :-( now we have problem with someone on LKML18:57
dion_I think that until it became 100% working nobody will break working phone18:57
Palibrolin_empey: but I got another patch from pavel for kernel-power18:57
Paliso I will test both18:57
cehtehso .. just glued the small metall plate which holds the standup against the magnet back into place ... grr .. but at least it didnt got lost when it came loose18:59
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cehtehbtw are there any more specs about the jolla phone out yet?19:00
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DocScrutinizer05jolla is not GolDeliCo ;-)19:03
DocScrutinizer05it's commercial as in: build product, sell product with a crippled list of fuzzy specs, get the money, eventually disclose the docs19:05
DocScrutinizer05GolDeliCo does: publish the docs, publish the specs based on docs, get the money, sell the product   ;-)19:06
kerioso far, hasn't it been "promise product with crippled list of fuzzy specs, get the money"?19:06
DocScrutinizer05well, I don't count any "promise" as anything relevant19:07
kerioso it's just "get the money" for now19:07
keriono actual product yet19:07
DocScrutinizer05but yes, you're right, that's state of things with jolla19:07
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DocScrutinizer05(<kerio> no actual product yet) ooh, I git a fine t-shirt for 100EUR ;-P19:10
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keriodid you actually get it?19:10
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DocScrutinizer05I will claim I never did, since then I'm still waiting for Jolla to deliver, and I can step down from the contract19:11
brolin_empeyPali: Which problem with whom on (the) LKML?19:11
DocScrutinizer05for full refund19:11
kerioso you're cheating them off the tshirt! :C19:12
keriois it good quality at least?19:12
DocScrutinizer05only when they try to cheat me off my 100EUR19:12
brolin_empeyPali: And which Pavel?  PaulFertser?19:13
DocScrutinizer05nope, prolly not19:13
Palino Pavel Machek19:13
freemangordonit is a nice read :)19:13
brolin_empeyPali: If you lack time, maybe you need to include time.h ? ;-)19:15
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SAiFmemory automatically changes to readonly.?19:36
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PaliDocScrutinizer05: so what to do with that idiot?19:50
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Paliif somebody is unable to find one line patch in email....19:50
freemangordonPali: I tink his point is that it belongs to a different patch. Not that he is not arrogant19:51
SAiFhmm, MyDocs get readonly automaticaly, what could be causing this?19:54
DocScrutinizer05Pali: stay cool19:55
DocScrutinizer05Pali: your last post been the right answer19:56
DocScrutinizer05"... or explain why"19:56
DocScrutinizer05bitching at those guys reproducibly doesn't help19:58
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NIN101SAiF: for a start, take a look at dmesg for some hints.20:04
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SAiFit even shows up after a delay while startup20:07
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dos1DocScrutinizer05: how's /. story going on? when should I be prepared to defend the server with my own body? (or at least get some popcorn for watching logs with logstalgia?) :)23:51
DocScrutinizer05stalled, no mail to improve on and forward to GeneralAntilles to even further improve it23:51
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DocScrutinizer05GA asked for a mail that tells him what sory we want to transport23:52
DocScrutinizer05story even23:52
DocScrutinizer05I'm poor at sketching stories23:53
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DocScrutinizer05sth like "after Nokia hit the sack, and OM Inc. went oblivion long ago, now after the failing big5's efforts with spyFone8, buntkuh-edge, whatnot else, finally the still vivid Openmoko community and there particularly GolDeliCo joined forces with the orphaned maemo community to make a dream come true, the painfully missed successor of N900 and same time the nextgen device to GTA02/04"... blabla23:57
r00t|homeis that neo900 seriously going to happen?23:59
DocScrutinizer05sure as hell we will try to make it happen23:59
Sysaxedr00t|home: even if not, let me us dream!23:59
SysaxedDocScrutinizer05: Is there any way to help?23:59
infobotsomebody said neo900 was at, or at

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