IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2013-09-03

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dos1and there were few posts mentioning wish for changing their votes to higher ones00:01
DocScrutinizer05obviously next step is: somebody needs to do a rough port of fremantle to a GTA04 and show off some basic icon juggling and a xterm00:01
dos1and /me, who failed to notice "complete device" in poll question and voted for what he'd pay at most, even if only for board00:02
dos1I wonder if more votes could be higher for the same reason00:03
DocScrutinizer05some may go higher, some others may go down, after initial excitement00:04
DocScrutinizer05I don't give too much about this poll00:04
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DocScrutinizer05it served it's pupose to attract interest00:05
dos1let's hope those who will go down are 1000 EUR and will drop to 700 :D00:05
DocScrutinizer05users are eager to vote on polls00:05
DocScrutinizer05I see this more like a statistic00:06
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DocScrutinizer05thus, the >10% are way more exciting to me than the 250 votes total or the 25 votes for >=70000:07
dos1right, I was expecting even higher percentage on the left side that it is now00:07
lexikI'm still 'initialy excited', the $500 is MINIMUM which i'm ABLE to pay, when i will see working prototype (with camera (!)) and with some +features i can make some +many and pay 700+... but now, it is just 'poll-about-nothing'00:08
DocScrutinizer05and we had this ~10% figure from very beginning, and I notice it's increasing slightly, which tells me I suceed in explaining what this device will be and how much it has to cost00:08
LjL-Alpsi will pay $200 but only if it's got a back glass that GLITTERS00:09
lexikwhen we will have a working prototype, is a fracking good idea to make an kickstarter project where can users offer Neo for better price (that's problem i know..)00:10
dos1I'll pay 1337 EUR if it's got ponies everywhere on it!00:11
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lexikbronies must die00:12
DocScrutinizer05we're still sorting out basic feasibility of whole project (Nikolaus still waiting for a N900 to disassemble and investigate), after that's done we will come up with a sort of cowdfunding for the prototypes00:12
dos1lexik: some crowdfunding may be needed for producing prototypes, as those are the costliest beasts00:12
DocScrutinizer05first guess is ~10k for prototypes00:13
lexikcrowdfunding is the only option ;)00:13
lexikor some billionaire TMO user00:14
FIQI've been frustrated over some odd bug where xchat will disconnect immediately when reading scrollback containing something evil00:14
DocScrutinizer05ooh, again this shit?00:14
DocScrutinizer05I thought that got fixed00:15
FIQAfter some experimenting, I found the bad line -- however I'm not sure if submitting it to a bugtracker would be a good idea due to potential abuse00:15
DocScrutinizer05it's basically known00:15
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DocScrutinizer05we had similar attack some 1 or two years ago00:15
FIQwonder where I can submit a report about it then00:16
FIQ# have this rogue string, assuming xchat stopped logging to the file on receiving the string.00:18
FIQthis is not fully correct, xchat kept running just fine and logged etc00:18
Earthwingshi DocScrutinizer0500:18
FIQonly on connect did the issue arise00:18
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: seems we're close to get shentey into full maintainer role for marble00:18
FIQalso it seems to search for something vastly different00:19
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: one last thing i'd like to do is to make him an admin of the marble package so he can promote packages to -testing00:19
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: either i miss the correct page to manage that or i can't change that on my own?00:19
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DocScrutinizer05FIQ: I didn't say it's a 100% remake of that other attack, I just sayd the hoax is known, based on bugs in utf-8 handling00:21
DocScrutinizer05Earthwings: you *should* be able to change other users' permissions in your project00:21
DocScrutinizer05on garage00:22
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: shentey is marked as an admin there already00:22
DocScrutinizer05hmm, then this is another bug in sync-users-groups.php script00:22
DocScrutinizer05the script is known to only propagate new users and new projects, but not correctly forwards changes00:23
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: although i didn't change that setting in years00:23
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: shall i remove and re-add him? or may that hurt?00:24
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DocScrutinizer05ask merlin1991 or freemangordon to fix shentey's permissions on drop and whatever needed00:24
DocScrutinizer05errr. I think it won't help since the friggin script also doesn't remove users00:25
Macerno lumia 1020 for tmobile . blah heh00:25
Macerdamn you at&t!00:25
DocScrutinizer05lemme check sth00:25
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DocScrutinizer05project name is marble?00:25
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: right00:25
EarthwingsAdded Usershentey2012-11-02 12:1000:26
Earthwingsso still somehow recent ;-)00:26
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DocScrutinizer05sorry, no dice in midgard either. Try to request maintainership for the project00:36
DocScrutinizer05  "Request to be maintainer of this package"  ( )00:38
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shenteyDocScrutinizer05: requested00:39
DocScrutinizer05wow, this terribly messed up the package interface page
DocScrutinizer05but it had some effect at least00:42
shenteyDocScrutinizer05: thx a lot!00:43
DocScrutinizer05shentey: please check
shenteyI still don't see the promote links00:44
DocScrutinizer05thismight take some time to propagate to wherever it's queried anyway00:45
DocScrutinizer05check again tomorrow, if it still doesn't work, please pester freemangordon about "promotion not working (only for some maintainers)"00:45
shenteyI'm listed as maintainer already, though00:46
DocScrutinizer05this are like 6 VM that need occasional sync00:46
DocScrutinizer05done by cronjobs and scripts00:47
DocScrutinizer05might even need a new repo build until you're in the list of maintainers for the package to promote, I dunno, really00:48
DocScrutinizer05sorry, afk00:48
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shenteyalright, I'll be waiting until the schizophrenia settles ;)00:49
DocScrutinizer05sorry for the inconvenience00:49
shenteyDocScrutinizer05: np, thx for helping me out00:49
DocScrutinizer05ooh shentey, Earthwings: what's about monav in extras-devel? should it get fixed, or nuked, or renamed?00:52
DocScrutinizer05or might you maybe review your package dependencies in marble?00:53
shenteyDocScrutinizer05: good question... Earthwings said it wouldn't work with Marble00:53
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: would love to have it nuked. not sure if anyone might use it though.00:53
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DocScrutinizer05who maintains it?00:53
Earthwingsthe file format has changed. monav 0.3 files are incompatible with it00:54
DocScrutinizer05couldn'tyou DEPEND on a working revision of monav?00:54
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: does the package manager handle that?00:54
DocScrutinizer05yep, afaik it does00:54
DocScrutinizer05check mp-fremantle-pr, full of dependencies to specific versions00:55
DocScrutinizer05actually that#s the only purpose of this friggin MP00:56
Earthwingsshentey: can you check whether that works? changing the monav dependency in the control file00:56
DocScrutinizer05maybe you got no dependency on monav at all?00:57
DocScrutinizer05anyway, I'm out00:57
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EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: ah, right, it's truly optional. iirc i tried with conflicts entries, but the package manager did bring up error messages then (or uninstall packages)00:58
shenteyyeah, I can try that00:59
shenteybot not tonight any more...01:00
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DocScrutinizer05dos1: a huge amount of voters will be willing to shell out another 100 or 200 once there's actually something to show off01:07
DocScrutinizer05dos1: ideally, a fremantle on GTA04 with above mentioned ison tossing and xterm, *plus a compass app*01:08
DocScrutinizer05to demonstrate you can make use of the new features under good'ole fremantle01:09
DocScrutinizer05port friggin SHR dialer or whatever to show GSM working as well ("we will see how much effort it cost us to push maemo dialer to work")01:10
DocScrutinizer05should be feasible in a person-week of work01:10
DocScrutinizer05after all they ported fremantle to other platforms already01:11
DocScrutinizer05(sure also without any of the nokia blobs)01:11
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shenteyDocScrutinizer05: which platforms?01:14
DocScrutinizer05shentey: see01:15
dos1DocScrutinizer05: I agree with you. I'd like to help, but I don't have GTA04, and well, I don't think I want to start porting Fremantle to GTA02 :P01:17
DocScrutinizer05shentey: or did you mean this one
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shenteyit's been ported to the BeagleBoard... interesting01:23
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x29aoh id love to see the neo900 thing happen01:38
x29abut with > 512mb ram01:38
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entitledHardware keyboard or the lack of it, is a deal-breaker for me01:42
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DocScrutinizer05both topics already answered in01:48
DocScrutinizer05n900 case *has* a kbd, and >512MB isn't feasible on DM3730 it seems, but we will try to find a really good alternative01:49
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dos1looks like i finally memorized ln syntax correctly!01:58
nox-ln works like cp just it doesnt copy but links01:58
dos1when I tried to make some symlink, I was *always* getting arguments in the wrong way :D01:58
dos1yeah, now it seems easy... :D01:59
DocScrutinizer05I sometimes get weird results on ln, particularly when trying to link a dir02:01
Macercan't seem to find out where you change the search engine for pale moon02:02
dos1DocScrutinizer05: if you mix up the order, then you'll make symlink inside the folder you wanted to link to02:02
dos1and that always happened to me... and each time I thought "now i'll do it the other way than usual", but did the same anyway02:04
dos1dunno why; now it was the first time i noticed that i did it correctly few times in row :D02:04
ecc3ghas anyone ever played with an x86 smartphone?  I wonder how bad they are in terms of battery life, features, etc.  (ignore the OS :)02:07
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DocScrutinizer05I think x86 smartphones are vaporware, or a big hoax02:33
DocScrutinizer05I son't even know of x86 tablets to be honest02:33
nox-maybe he means ultrabooks?02:37
nox-but yeah x86 usually needs more power02:37
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RST38hDoc: New Galaxy Tab is supposed to be x86 based02:59
RST38hDoc: At least this is what leaked specs are saying02:59
ecc3gno, there are x86 smartphones out there... not in the US or Europe however...03:00
* RST38h has fondled an x86 smartphone 03:01
RST38hNothing to write home about, really, at least not that initial device03:01
ecc3gprobably not03:01
ecc3gthat it sucks battery power like mad is still something that would be interesting to know however...03:02
RST38hyes and no03:02
ecc3gI just don't know how x86 will get ram on chip...03:02
RST38hwhy does it need to contain ram on chip?03:03
ecc3greduce costs?03:03
RST38hin a standard PoP, RAM is combined with Flash, not with the CPU03:04
RST38hMost "serious" ARM chips do not contain RAM in the same package03:04
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RiDheyheyhey! anyone knows how to have better controll over screen brightness on n900?03:14
RiDi'd like to set it to the most dim possible, dont know if there's a way03:14
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DocScrutinizer05rid should stay a lil longer to listen to the extremely wise and insightful answers he might have gotten03:31
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DocScrutinizer05it is about /usr/lib/hal/scripts/hal-functions and /usr/lib/hal/scripts/hal-system-lcd-set-brightness, about /usr/lib/mce/modules/libfilter-brightness-*.so, and about /sys/class/backlight/acx565akm/*brightness03:38
RiDoh by the way i didn't read anything before I left (ran out of battery)03:39
RiDbefore i joined again*03:39
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ShadowJKmotorola has a x86 phone04:52
ShadowJKThere are tons of x86 tablets, mostly running windows 8.04:52
wmaroneand most of those x86 tablets are running powervr graphics *gag*04:55
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DocScrutinizer05I didn't say "there are no x86 tablets", I said "I don't know of any..."05:35
DocScrutinizer05And I know there even been a few (dozen?) x86 phones even years ago. Epic fail. Never heard of them again, so: a big hoax.05:36
DocScrutinizer05all i recently hear is "tablets go ARM. Win8 goes ARM"05:38
DocScrutinizer05not that i'd care much to stay up to date. I'm not really interested in tablets. And for sure I'm not interested in x86 phones for another few years at least05:39
ShadowJKWin8 on ARM became a massive flop05:40
DocScrutinizer05oooh? good! ;-P05:40
ShadowJK(so naturally Elop is going to do Win8-Arm tablet)05:40
DocScrutinizer05not that I'd think win8 had any chances to _not_ become a flop on anything, under any circumstances whatsoever05:41
ShadowJKiirc, microsoft manufactured w8-arm tablets worth 4 BILLION dollars, and managed to sell a fifth of them after discounting to half the BOM cost.05:42
DocScrutinizer05Industry is still on winXP, since everything since been useless for professional use, even at industry level (I consider industry requirements rather undemanding here)05:43
DocScrutinizer05they are massively pondering how to migrate to FOSS now05:43
DocScrutinizer05municipality often all the same05:44
* ShadowJK is at work now overseeing one of the fancier pieces of equipment05:45
ShadowJKit runs WinCE05:45
ShadowJKWindows 8's metro is worse than MS Bob05:47
ShadowJKAtleast Bob had a exit button to switch it off05:47
DocScrutinizer05who's Bob? zje friggin paperclip?05:49
ShadowJKMS Bob was microsoft's previous big attempt at revolutionizing computer interfaces05:49
ShadowJKAnd yeah, paperclip, except 9 of them, in different shapes. And instead of having windows and programs, it was a 3D "Home". To write a document, you navigated to the HomeOffice room, sat down at the desk, and a Dog would come help you write a letter05:50
DocScrutinizer05OMG that nonsense05:52
* DocScrutinizer05 runs screaming05:52
DocScrutinizer05second life for clerks05:52
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DocScrutinizer05btw, what became of 2nd life? Huge tsunami?05:55
DocScrutinizer05killer bats?05:55
ShadowJKPeople said "no thanks, I'll stick with Windows 3.0", and it flopped so badly, it was pretty quickly withdrawn, and few people have heard of it05:55
robbiethe1stShadowJK, what, MS BOB?05:59
Macer2nd life?05:59
robbiethe1stWait, few people have heard of it?05:59
ShadowJKyeah it seems pretty unknown?06:00
Macerlike... the thing where you walk around some world doing nothing?06:00
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robbiethe1stMacer, I thought you made money off of it by designing in-game items and selling them06:02
Macerlike... real money?06:02
DocScrutinizer05Macer: yep, the thing with linton dollar06:02
Macerwho buys shit like that?06:02
robbiethe1stBored people06:03
Macerif it had a porn theme it would be a mega hit06:03
robbiethe1sthehe... Are you thinking it /doesn/t?06:03
DocScrutinizer05ooh it FOR SURE has06:03
Macerworld of whackcraft06:03
Macerit does?06:03
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DocScrutinizer05there already been trials in real world, trying to prosecute real porsons for doing prostittution and worse in SL06:04
robbiethe1st...I once ran into a tech support story(wrong number etc)... The user calling in had a bluetooth-enabled, SL-connected dildo.06:04
DocScrutinizer05exhibitionism in SL06:04
DocScrutinizer05jail in RL06:05
DocScrutinizer05but recently I heard nuttin about SL anymore.Thought it might have vanished in a supernova somebody injected to the main servers via some malware06:07
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ShadowJKpeople moved to twitter06:12
ShadowJKand facebook06:12
robbiethe1stElop was a shill, and everyone knew it!06:22
robbiethe1stbrought in to give MS a phone company, and kill a major competetor(Maemo & symbian) who could have threatened things.06:23
robbiethe1stOh, and guess what, Mr. Elop might well get to take over MS, after gutting Nokia06:23
robbiethe1stI can only hope what's left of Nokia gets some balls back06:24
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wmaronefare thee well Nokia, exactly what I expected to happen has06:29
DocScrutinizer05MS-Nokia? old news, everybody expected err *knew* this when MrFlop started06:29
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DocScrutinizer05MrFlop the new Uncle Fester though is *really* funny06:33
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DocScrutinizer05sounds like the mafia boss asking his worst most sadistic killer to now babysitting the boss' children06:35
DocScrutinizer05well, probably MS actually is the first and maybe one of only 10 companies worldwide that's really just too big to fail06:37
robbiethe1stAre they?06:38
robbiethe1stWhat would happen if MS went out of business?06:38
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robbiethe1stThe rights to Windows would be sold off, someone else would take on supporting current versions06:38
DocScrutinizer05I'd think yes, they are. Otherwise they wouldn't exist anymore since years06:38
robbiethe1stEven if MS just disappeared, windows licences stopped being sold...06:39
DocScrutinizer05the question "what would happen if..." is basically meaningless, since they simply CANNOT go out of business06:39
robbiethe1stthings would go on. There'd be a lot of porting of software; probably a massive econemy boom06:40
robbiethe1stWell, to be fair, they /do/ have enough money in the bank that if they stopped selling any new licenses, they'd not go out of business for years06:40
robbiethe1stthey could be losing money slowly for decades and still be OK06:41
robbiethe1stThat being said, I do think that if they aren't careful, this NSA stuff will quickly render them obsolete anywhere but the US06:42
DocScrutinizer05and even form a market perspective they can't go out of business, just like exxon or BP can't stop producing oil06:42
DocScrutinizer05NSA? LOL! in 12 months MS comes up with WinSecure, now absolutely safe06:43
DocScrutinizer05and they will earn even more money06:44
DocScrutinizer05I rather guess NSA will get bought by MS. That's called outsourcing06:45
robbiethe1stYeah. And will any government outside the US(and perhaps UK) trust them?06:46
DocScrutinizer05NSA fires 99% of their employees, and MS does all the jobs of NSA06:46
DocScrutinizer05sure, since they are not the NSA, they are "the good ones"06:46
robbiethe1stI sure hope not06:47
DocScrutinizer05and the heck, prolly they are. After all they won't be that much intrested in spying any other industries except their direct competitors06:47
robbiethe1stThe NSA, however, will be interested in spying on everything06:48
robbiethe1stand so, they will have orders to find such things06:48
DocScrutinizer05nonono, you don't get it. NSA gets bashed by US public, and the US residents rather trust in MS than in NSA. They don't like thaat spying either06:49
robbiethe1stWell, US residents, I don't hold much stock in them knowing much of anything06:49
robbiethe1stI'm thinking everyone outside06:49
robbiethe1stEU -- whom we've been spying on06:50
robbiethe1stChina, russia, who really don't want to be spied on06:50
DocScrutinizer05but don't hope on NSA and prism/tempora having any negative impact on MS business. Rather the opposite, if any06:50
robbiethe1stIt might help in the US, but I'm thinking their global numbers will fall06:51
DocScrutinizer05hardly noticeable.06:51
DocScrutinizer05what might kill their international business is win8 crap06:51
robbiethe1stAnd, I'm still waiting to see what happens with XP06:52
robbiethe1stConsidering 35% marketshare, still06:52
robbiethe1stWe're still running XP in various places at work, no plans to upgrade06:52
DocScrutinizer05when really the last noob shouts in the coputer shop "WHATS *THAT*? I don't want that please give me some alternative"06:53
DocScrutinizer05[2013-09-03 04:43:07] <DocScrutinizer05> Industry is still on winXP, since everything since been useless for professional use, even at industry level (I consider industry requirements rather undemanding here)06:53
robbiethe1stWell, here, it's half Win 7, half XP06:54
robbiethe1st...Though, while Win 7 is generally nice and up-to-par with Debian KDE, I do get frustrated with it some times06:54
DocScrutinizer05at my last 2 companies it been 99% XP, and 70% XP06:54
robbiethe1stI open my 'downloads' folder, and it takes like 20s just to display the contents.06:54
robbiethe1stI've opened much larger folders on my various Debian installs, and it doesn't take more than 1s, if that!06:55
DocScrutinizer05the 99% XP company struggled hard to find a way to migrate all their tools and stuff to FOSS06:56
DocScrutinizer05and they had a *lot* of tools and proprietary apps to port to a new OS. That's probably why06:57
DocScrutinizer05if you already have to port all that cruft to a new OS, then pretty please an OS where you got full control over updates and lifespan06:58
DocScrutinizer05any win-only apps? so what, we got VMware06:58
DocScrutinizer05and Lauterbach will notice eventually, and offer a linux version of their tools06:59
DocScrutinizer05as will all those ITIL-system companies07:00
DocScrutinizer05hah, lauterbach. Haven't checked for a year what they're doing07:00
robbiethe1stwhen Autodesk and Catia offer a Linux version07:01
DocScrutinizer05yeah, now it's official: MS buys Nokia core business for 5.4 billion USD07:01
DocScrutinizer05today I'll actually watch NBC news07:02
DocScrutinizer05particularly the NYSE07:02
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DocScrutinizer05farewell Nokia07:03
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DocScrutinizer05*lol*  call me a fool - I just registered ##maemo07:07
DocScrutinizer05just in case you wonder what's "lauterbach":
DocScrutinizer05meh, of course they already have linux support07:15
DocScrutinizer05Qt and Motif07:16
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jpinxHello msn-nokia :s07:30
DocScrutinizer05ooops, EUR, not USD07:32
DocScrutinizer05well 5.4 billion EUR or USD, not much of a difference07:33
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders if we will again be able to buy NOKIA rubberboots finally07:34
jpinxwaders maybe :)07:34
DocScrutinizer05yeah, probably Nokia will again be really big business in 30 years, with all that global warming ;-)07:35
DocScrutinizer05ruberboats, boots, waders, tents, waterbags... I see a bright future for Nokia07:36
jpinx ;)07:37
jpinxDocScrutinizer05: how many n900's do you have now ? ;)07:43
jpinxthey'll have antique value soon :)07:43
DocScrutinizer05well, not enough. But honestly, the today's hot news won't have any impact on that.07:44
Macertoday's hot news?07:44
Macern900s cure cancer?07:45
DocScrutinizer05farewel Nokia07:45
Macerfarewell nokia?07:45
Macerdid i miss something?07:45
DocScrutinizer05bought by MS07:45
DocScrutinizer055.5E9 EUR07:45
Macerkinda saw that coming didnt we? ;)07:45
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Macerwow thats it?07:46
Macercheap buy for ms :)07:46
Macerwhat is a € worth us nowadays?07:46
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Macerwow fell that low?07:47
Macerwell... maybe ms is going to make nokia their iphone ;)07:47
DocScrutinizer05maybe 1.40, I honestly don't know07:47
Macerwin8 phones arent too bad07:47
Macerlumia 1020 is a beast07:47
Macerthen again tho.. google bought motorola and havent done anything with it07:48
Macerprobably just to pocket patents07:48
jpinxsony have arguably the best phones atm07:48
jpinxbut that's a moving finishing line07:48
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Maceri cant say i see too many sony phones out and about tbh. not here at least07:49
DocScrutinizer05doesn't mean they are crap07:50
Maceri didnt say they were07:50
Macerjust saying07:50
Macerit is rare to see one07:50
jpinxSony Xperia Z Ultra 6.4" phablet07:50
DocScrutinizer05well, you get xperias in evry shop here07:51
jpinxvery cool big phone07:51
Macerif i take a route tho i think i will be going the ms route next07:51
Maceris that the sony answer to a note?07:51
jpinxdepends on whether the not was a question :p07:51
Macerif my n900 ever dies. heh. i still have a brand new e7 on standby too07:51
jpinxMacer: and take a  look at samsung mega 6.3"07:52
Macerlooks like 3 types of phones from here on out07:52
Macerad-droid, windows, and ios07:52
* jpinx will go for a phablet next07:53
Macermaybe ms will use symbian code to create true multitasking07:53
Maceri can noly imagine a windows phone with a symbian base on today's hardware07:53
Macerusing a windows ui07:53
jpinxwhat about the ubuntu phone ?07:53
Macerthat would be insanely good heh07:53
Macerubuntu fell short 19M :-P07:54
* jpinx is not writing them off just because of money07:54
Maceri would07:54
Macerunless they got something out from a major manufacturer07:54
Macerunity is an ugly interface tho07:54
jpinxthey have a good chance and the market is begging for anopen source phone07:55
befordon the phone it seems to be more usable than on a laptop though07:55
Macerwerent they going to use wayland too?07:56
Macerlike. no more xorg?07:56
Macerim sure that may improve performance. but realistically the ubuntu phone is far from reality07:57
Macerms is actually starting to shape up to take a good position in the market07:57
jpinxMacer is a negative thinker ?07:57
befordMir, no wayland and no X07:57
Macerjpinx: no. i am a realist ;)07:57
befordthey'll use Mir on desktop too, I think the next release will include it07:57
jpinxMacer: reality is relative . it's a question of perception :)08:00
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DocScrutinizer05good! one linux distro less I have to service on any of my friends' computers. If they want me to service their junk, they better stay away from buntkuh with mir.08:04
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Sc0rpiusMicrosoft buys Nokia's devices & services so what's left ?08:12
jpinxwelly boots :)08:14
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Sc0rpiusI don't see the difference between "Microsoft buys Nokia's devices & services" and "Microsoft buys Nokia and bye bye for good"08:15
jpinxdon't forget the wellies :)08:16
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jpinxMS didn't buy them :)08:16
Kaadlajkwhat is left still has revenue of over 15billion so there is something left :P08:18
Sc0rpiuswhat Nokia has besides "devices & services" ?08:19
Sc0rpiusthe building and employees? so that's left, they are not part of the deal08:20
fralsnetworks is a separate org from devices and services, at least08:21
jpinxabout 32,000 Nokia employees will transfer to Microsoft08:22
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jpinxthe deal will be finalised in early 201408:22
jpinxsubject to approval by Nokia shareholders and regulators08:23
befordnokia will keep the HERE map bussiness, microsoft just paid to use it in the phones08:23
Sc0rpiusthe whole board of directors of Nokia will accept the deal, they have to08:24
Sc0rpiusare you sure of that beford?08:24
Sc0rpiusthat looks like it is part of the "services" deal08:24
befordthat's how I read it, not sure08:25
jpinxSc0rpius: yep - the patents and mapping ae going to be good earners for what is left of Nokia08:25
jpinxNokia will also license its patents and mapping services to Microsoft08:25
jpinxnot "sell"08:26
Sc0rpiusand who uses Nokia maps anyway...08:26
Sc0rpiusI thought everybody used Google maps for navigation in their phoens08:26
jpinxMS will :)08:26
jpinxMS will be glad of a way to cut googlemaps out08:26
Sc0rpiusat least Elop is stepping down for what's left of Nokia08:28
Sc0rpiusthat's like a tiny bit of light in all these darkness hehe :)08:29
Sc0rpiusthis was all a dirty plot08:29
Sc0rpiusElop will go back to Microsoft after the acquisition closes08:29
Sc0rpiusthis was all a plot from the very beginning Elop came to Nokia08:29
jpinxSc0rpius: everyone has seen this coming for a year or so now08:30
Sc0rpiusnot me!08:31
jpinxever since Elop was appointed ;)08:31
ruskiewell nokia it was nice knowing you08:36
Wulfe as a maemo 4 user this all means absolutely nothing to me, Nokia died several years ago for us.08:40
* jpinx has a spare working n900 for sale :)08:41
Wulfehow much?08:41
ruskieI'm still happy with mine *knock on wood*08:42
ruskieand my backups include sailfish, firefoxos and tizien(or whatever you spell it like)08:42
jpinxWulfe: $150 US ?08:43
Wulfemeh, i am good. i have found them for a bit cheaper.08:43
Wulfebut decent price all the same08:43
jpinxyea and postage from here would make it more08:44
jpinxWulfe: make me an offer ;)08:45
Wulfeyeah S&H really gets ya08:45
Wulfeunless you can beat $110 free S&H i wont be interested.08:45
jpinxwhere are you ?08:45
Wulfeplace i am looking at has a very limited supply so i may jump on it.08:45
Wulfemidwest usa08:46
jpinxgimmie a city I can google S&H to ;)08:46
Wulfekansas city, mo08:46
jpinxwhat's the favourite S&H people there ?  DHL or who ?08:47
Wulfedont rely on me as a buyer though only reason i have not bought one yet is i am waiting to sell off a tablet for the money first08:47
WulfeUPS or USPS08:48
jpinxWulfe: what tablet you selling ?08:48
jpinxWulfe: pm me ;)08:48
Wulfedeal streak 7 with modified charging port08:48
Wulfei removed the propriatary 30 pin for a mini usb one08:48
jpinxnever heard of dell streak 7 --  googlng nw08:49
Wulfemain reason i am looking to get a n900 is for developing on it08:49
Wulfeits an okay tablet but it has its downsides08:50
Wulfemainly being a dell08:50
Wulfedell is like the apple of pc's.....08:50
Wulfeso damn propriatary with everything they do08:50
jpinxwhat OS08:51
Wulfeandroid 3.208:51
jpinxpossible to upgrade ?08:51
Wulfeyeah XDA has custom roms to take it to jellybean08:51
jpinxWulfe: ok -  no sale :)  I can buy new tablets with jellybean for $100 here and not have to put up with Dell's oddities (non-removeable battery - wtf is that?)09:00
Wulfei completely understand lol09:01
Wulfealthough the battery can be changed out you just have to open the thing up.09:01
Wulfebut yeah dell blows09:01
Wulfeno biggie though i am sure someone on craigslist will want one09:02
jpinxSamsung Mega 6.3" here is about $7509:02
Wulfechristmas coming up and all09:02
Wulfeyeah samsung makes a decent tablet09:02
Wulfegood price to09:03
jpinx :)09:04
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ApicDocScrutinizer05: Yes, 1983 in Christian Date09:22
DocScrutinizer05Apic: I just think it's extremely funny that ddate binary is bart of core tools and thus on *every* linux ;-D09:24
ApicYes, thanks to Slackware, the very first Distro, and the Church of the Subgenius. Praise Bob!09:24
DocScrutinizer05love it :-)09:25
* Apic 209:25
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doc|mobilewho didn't see this coming: ?09:28
Gh0stynobody ever did :P09:29
Gh0styit was not a question of 'if' but rather 'when'09:29
doc|mobilehe was always seen as a trojan09:30
doc|mobileseems he did the same thing with Macromedia, joined as ceo three months before they were bought by Adobe09:40
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XATRIXHi, i still need help to solve some dependency issue10:04
XATRIXHAM + CSSU package update10:05
XATRIXwhere can i get HAM logs ?10:05
XATRIXDoes it write some file ?10:05
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XATRIXDocScrutinizer05: hi10:07
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jaskai knew this the day they announced elop10:24
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doc|mobileso many deals with microsoft ends up with the other party getting screwed10:25
doc|mobileI wonder if this will get any regulatory bodies interested10:26
VeggenFor Microsoft, I think it's too late actually.10:27
Veggen...though they have been very good at turning around in earlier days. Not so the last 10+ years.10:27
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doc|mobileI dunno, look at the xbox10:28
doc|mobileand Ballmer on his way out may help10:28
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WizzupEmbrace, Extend, Extinguish10:55
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ruskieapparently Elop is now a favorite as the monkeys replacement11:20
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ruskiebut yeah interested if any of the regulators will stick their nose in this as well11:24
jaskaembrace, extend, extinguish, elop11:25
Wizzupjaska: LOL11:25
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jon_ySo Microsoft-Nokia is now reality :)12:07
fizzieAnd Finnish news sites have amusing front pages as a result. It's all Nokia this and Nokia that as far as the eye can see.12:09
Macerwell. there arent a lot of things in finland to talk about is there?12:12
Macerat least in the US we murder each other all day long12:12
jon_y150 years of Nokia undone in 3 years12:15
jon_ygood job guys12:15
jon_yso are they releasing th N950 owners from their obligation now?12:16
LauRomanthis is the kind of thing that will eventually happen to all shareheld companies sooner or later, if they are not part of a state sponsored industrial complex12:18
FIQMS buys Nokia12:18
* FIQ saw this coming 2 years ago already12:19
jon_yso now, there are basically 2 choices for consumer phones, Samsung and Apple12:20
jon_ythey both look the same that I can't tell them apart12:21
LauRomanthe difference is that one is made in china and the other is made in korea and chine, one has samsung chips and screens, the other has samsung screens and chips12:23
FIQthe only thing that actually matter is your OS of choice12:25
FIQand then you choose device based on that12:25
FIQ[11:18:22] <LauRoman> this is the kind of thing that will eventually happen to all shareheld companies sooner or later, if they are not part of a state sponsored industrial complex12:26
FIQyes but usually it dies slowly or gets obsoleted by something else12:26
FIQnokia basically went suicidal12:26
LauRomanfor a second time FIQ12:27
FIQLauRoman: ?12:28
LauRomanfiq first is when they signed the WP deal12:28
FIQoh I counted this all as a single action12:28
FIQas it was bound to be absorbed by MS the moment elop ruined nokia back in feb 201112:29
LauRomannokia shareholders wanted money now and promises of more coming later, that's what they got from MS, and what they got from google was zero money now and aassurances of money later,  they just chose "money now"12:30
jon_yhow much are all the shares worth?12:31
jon_yMS has 86 billion in the bank iirc12:31
jon_yif this bites MS hard, so much the better :)12:31
LauRoman8 bil is nothing compared to the motorola deal or the verizon vodafone one12:32
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jonwilI wonder what the merger laws are in Finland and whether there is a government agency that will need to give blessing to the Nokia-MS deal in the way it is here in Australia12:56
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edheldilGood job, Elop, mission accomplished :/13:00
Veggenjonwil: very likely.13:00
Veggenhowever, since Google and Android are the two largest player, and MS share will not be that large at all, I doubt anyone will deny this.13:01
Veggeneh, Google and Apple, I meant.13:02
LauRomanjonwil, there is no merger, one company is selling a divison to another company. Theoretically it should only be regulated if MS already had a hardware division (or a homonym to whatever other part is included in the deal) in Finland, or if the State held a big enough stake in Nokia that allwoed it to make some decisions based on how many shares it had or if there was an aditional agreement13:07
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LauRomansince navteq and many other divisons are not being sold, thre shouldn't be regulation backlash13:08
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LauRomanthe only thing i fear is that the Lumia division could end up a writeoff in 3-4-5 years13:10
jonwilif Microsoft buying the Nokia phone division hurts Microsoft, that's a good thing (I have no great love for Microsoft)13:17
divVerentLauRoman: and why is that bad? :)13:19
LauRomandivVerent, people being layed off because of corporate machinations is what will be attached to that writeoff13:20
jonwilAbout the only things I use from Microsoft are Windows (because only Windows can run things I want/need to run like games) and Visual Studio (because I write code that will only be usable in Visual C++ due to ABI issues)13:20
divVerentwell... and where is the difference? Lumia wasn't exactly a success13:20
divVerentNokia was struggling anyway, I don't really think it gets WORSE from this for the employees13:21
divVerentmaybe not better either, though13:21
divVerentjonwil: have to admit MSVS is the best IDE there is... if only it had decent compilers :)13:21
jonwilWhat would you consider a better compiler than MS?13:21
divVerentANY other compiler13:22
divVerente.g. for starters, a C compiler that doesn't STILL ignore C9913:22
jonwilThe new Visual C++ 2013 compiler supports quite a few parts of C9913:22
divVerentdoes it FINALLY allow variables inside blocks? :P13:22
divVerentalso, a compiler that comes with a runtime that doesn't warn because code is portable and not Microsoft vendor-lock-in code13:23
divVerente.g. fopen() is forbidden apparently, need to use the MUCH MORE SECURE fopen_s(). Why is it more secure? Because it DETECTS WHEN YOU PASS NULL AS FILENAME.13:23
divVerentI wouldn't complain if it were actually more secure, but SOME of the functions in the _s set are just ridiculous13:25
jon_ydivVerent: those are C++ template tricks13:25
jon_yI know because I worked on adding those _s to mingw-w6413:26
jonwilYou can turn off all those warnings13:26
jonwilI do it all the time my in C++ code13:26
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jon_yit really needs to be automated, added half of it in only13:26
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divVerentjon_y: SOME are13:26
divVerentfopen_s is not13:26
divVerentmany of these actually do some sizeof() tricks to find array sizes, and add a compile time check for buffer overflows13:27
divVerentkinda like _FORTIFY_SOURCE does in gcc/glibc13:27
jon_yactually, gcc already has non_null attribute that warns on possible null13:27
jon_ygcc still best for C99 and the proposed C1113:28
divVerentand via fortify (also some nasty template and macro tricks) it adds an extra function arg of the array size if you pass an array buffer13:28
jon_yyup, I know those13:28
divVerentif it cannot detect an overrun at compile time already13:28
divVerentjust, MS insisted on breaking a standard just so they can lock-in13:28
jon_yit directs unsafe to "safe"13:28
divVerentwhile glibc managed to do it ALMOST without issues without any compatibility breakage13:28
jon_yalso, RT apparently has nothing to do with security13:29
divVerentbut anyway13:29
jon_yaccording to the VLC guys13:29
divVerentso MS finally has a major part of C99 done? Nice.13:29
divVerentTook them only... 15 years13:29
jon_yit does?13:29
divVerentso I know when they will have C++11 done13:29
jon_yI thought it does stdint.h only?13:29
divVerentoh, still?13:29
divVerentwas just told they added more :P13:29
jonwilVisual C++ 2013 does implement a bunch of the C99 libs13:29
jon_yafaik, it is just stdint.h13:30
divVerentdoes it also add the C99 syntax enhancements?13:30
jon_yjonwil: what libs?13:30
divVerentlike being allowed to declare variables in the middle of a block?13:30
divVerent(yes, that enhancement C++ had from the start)13:30
jon_yI remember my C lecturer keeps insisting that you CANNOT DECLARE variables in the middle of the block13:30
jon_ythen again I've been using gnu89 since forever13:30
divVerentregarding C11, that is mostly pointless... it adds very little. But also is very easy to implement then.13:31
jonwilit adds complex.h, stdbool.h, fenv.h and inttypes.h13:31
divVerentI mainly like that there is finally a standard way for thread local variables13:31
jon_ythat is the whole point of C :)13:31
jonwilalong with new functions in math.h, ctype.h, wctype.h, stdio.h, stdlib.h and wchar.h13:31
jon_ydoes ms finally have long double?13:31
divVerentoh, and gets() FINALLY gone :P13:31
divVerentin C1113:31
divVerentjon_y: huh, it did not?13:31
divVerentfun fact about long double: it'll soon be gone from the CPUs13:32
jonwilVisual C++ current version does not have that13:32
divVerentAMD and Intel decided to get rid of it13:32
jon_yno, it did not, sizeof(double) == sizeof(long double)13:32
divVerentof the 80bit float type13:32
jonwilThe new one that has been released as a beta has this new header support13:32
divVerentbecause SSE doesn't support it13:32
jon_ymingw* had mingwex extensions to do 80bit float13:32
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divVerentyes, via x87 FPU instructions13:32
divVerentwhich are deprecated and announced to break "soonish"13:32
divVerentso that OS kernels will have to SW emulate 80bit floating point13:32
bennypr0faneis it normal that I can't edit the settings for repo in HAM?13:33
jon_yehm I don't think SW is going to break13:33
jonwilok, found the URL from the MS blog with the details of C99 support in Visual C++ 201313:33
divVerentjon_y: not break per se13:33
divVerentOS kernels will have to implement "assists" for it13:33
divVerentbasically, emulate them13:33
jon_ywell, Intel isn't going to break CPU support that is13:33
divVerentthey will raise illegal instruction, then the kernel steps in and the application won't notice13:33
divVerentis how they want it to be13:33
jon_yyes, I know about trapping errors13:33
divVerentjust... a precondition for that is breaking support for old OSes :P13:34
divVerentlike DOS13:34
jon_ynormally, MSVC long double functions are exactly the same as double13:34
divVerentso I would suppose a CPU that will do this will also be UEFI-only13:34
divVerentwhile at it, let's kill real mode plz?13:34
jon_yso mingw* has a different ABI than msvc with floating points13:34
jonwilDoes GCC support static thread-local-storage on Windows (i.e. __declspec(thread) or whatever GCC has decided to call it)13:34
jon_ydivVerent: it will only execute signed code :)13:34
jon_yyes it does13:35
jon_y__thread int aaa;13:35
jonwilok, great, I remember many years ago I got a copyright assignment for GCC expressly with the intent of trying to add that support13:35
divVerentBTW, I only recently had to use long double in new code13:35
divVerentI wanted to do some float math on 64bit integers13:35
divVerentthey JUST fit into 80bit long doubles13:35
jon_yit relies on libgcc and windows tls slots13:35
divVerentbut, that code won't complain if it were to be SW emulated13:35
jon_yon MSVC, long double is just double13:36
jon_yreally just 64bit afaik13:36
divVerentfun, C11 allows conforming implementatiosn to have no variable length arrays? interesting13:36
jon_ythat would be MSVC13:36
divVerentdoes this also imply no alloca()?13:37
divVerentas otherwise it's pointless to do that13:37
jon_yif you want C, use gcc :)13:37
divVerentadmittedly, a C++ compiler can emulate alloca() by other means :P13:37
jon_yoh no, new[]13:37
divVerenti.e. on the heap, and with an automatic destructor13:37
divVerenti.e. turn char *a = alloca(1234) into unique_ptr<char> a = new char[1234]13:38
divVerentbasically, yes13:38
jon_yyeah, C++ is still looks pretty scary to me13:38
jon_yimplementation sucks13:39
divVerentone other thing I really don't get in C1113:39
divVerentis quick_exit()13:39
divVerentdo we really need a third exit path?13:39
jon_yhmm, what does it do?13:39
divVerentlike exit() but with a second atexit() function chain13:39
bennypr0fanefreemangordon, is it normal that I can't edit the settings for repo in HAM?13:39
divVerentso it doesn't run the regular atexits, but a normally shorter chain of at_quick_exit functions13:39
jon_yprobably added by some embedded manufacturer13:40
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jon_ythere is also the C11 decimal floating point fun13:40
jon_ydecoding 128bit decimals is fun13:40
jon_yI burnt out a bit after writing the decoder for printf*13:41
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jon_y%x was the hardest, 3bits at a time, really!?13:42
jon_yI don't even get how float %A even works13:43
DocScrutinizer05bennypr0fane: yes13:45
LjL-Alpsis it normal for the N900's bundled headphones to sound wrong when connected to other stuff (stuff that doesn't use the microphone contacts at least)? and strangely, it sounds right again if i keep the headphones' button pressed13:45
jonwilHmmm, it sounds like the TLS support is not done the way Visual C++ does it13:47
jon_yhow does tls do it?13:47
jonwilVisual C++ does it using the TLS directory in the PE file13:47
jon_yusing .tls section yes?13:47
jonwiland a field in the TEB13:47
jonwiloh ok so it does do it the same way as Visual C++ then?13:47
jon_yah ok, mingw* does it too13:47
jon_yexcept just using it for ctor/dtor to run libgcc TlsAlloc13:48
jonwilwhat does it need from libgcc then?13:48
DocScrutinizer05could soembody help me out with the printing on the SoC of OMAP3630 !GB RAM boards?13:48
DocScrutinizer051GB even13:48
jonwilhmmm ok13:48
jon_ylibgcc will be responsible for the actual initialization, mingw* just provides the ctor/dtor to do it13:48
jon_yI mean, all that code was already in libgcc, no sense to rewrite it13:49
jonwilThe way I was trying to do it way back when was to basically copy what Visual C++ does and store each thread local variable in the .tls segment and access each variable via TEB->0x2C13:50
jonwilWhere I got stuck was finding a way to make GCC output the correct ASM (which uses the FS or GS segment IIRC)13:51
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bennypr0faneoh, goody! I installed kernel-power 52, no I'm unable to boot! looks like another reflash is in order... so close...13:53
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divVerentis there a "trick" to make a ThinkPad/Nexus4/iPhone headphone set work with the N900?13:53
divVerentby default, it sounds AWFUL because apparently it confuses mic/gnd pins and puts voltage on the gnd, which even changes a lot (about 10hz tone)13:53
bennypr0fanedivVerent, you mean a wired one?13:53
divVerentI want only the headphone part to work...13:54
divVerentso is there a way to turn off mic voltage feed (which I suppose is the cause)?13:54
divVerentother than by using duct tape :P that actually MIGHT work13:54
bennypr0faneafaik wired headsets can't remote control N900, but I've never heard about the headphone function being off13:55
bennypr0faneI only ever use bluetooth ones with n90013:55
jonwilI do note though that MingW still doesn't support SEH (as implemented by the kernel on Win32) without extra patches or libs13:55
divVerentI only want to hear audio :)13:55
jonwilOr has that changed too anyway? :)13:55
divVerentjonwil: SEH isn't :P13:55
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divVerentor rather, never understood what is "structured" in it13:56
LjL-AlpsdivVerent: did you see my question above? it looks like the complement of what you asked13:56
bennypr0fanedivVerent, what is gnd?13:56
divVerentbennypr0fane: trying to figure out13:56
divVerentwhich pin is SUPPOSED to be ground, and which IS, on these headphones vs n90013:57
divVerentbecause I suspect the issue is that there are two ways to assign Ground and Mic to the pins :P13:57
divVerentso if I can make the N900 ground the Mic pin, it should work13:57
bennypr0faneso you guys say, n900 has the pins set up, so only headphones with the same confusion can work right with it? :-D13:57
bennypr0fane*n900 has the pins set up wrong13:58
bennypr0faneaha, "gnd" stands for ground13:58
divVerentah, yes13:58
divVerentN900 has left right mic ground order13:59
divVerentUS standard is left right ground mic13:59
divVerentN900 isn't "special" here, Nokia did use the same order on 2.5mm plugs for ages13:59
divVerentso basically I wonder if there is a software way to turn off the mic voltage13:59
bennypr0faneso is that like standard for europe, or just standard for Nokia?14:00
jon_yjonwil: SEH as in exceptions?14:00
jon_yor do you mean calling __try explicitly?14:00
jon_yas for the former, like C++ exceptions, is supported in 64bit14:00
jon_yas for 32bit, just waiting for patents to expire14:01
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divVerentbennypr0fane: I doubt a standard even existed before14:02
gry(for those who didn't notice: microsoft bought nokia, it seems, today.)14:02
divVerentHAHA, just MAYBE answered my own question14:04
divVerentalsamixer has a "jack function" item14:05
divVerentit was TV-Out when I plugged the headset in14:05
divVerentany other setting doesn't have that buzzing14:05
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divVerentdon't know if it'll actually play though14:07
jonwilYet another thing to add to the list of things being held back by software patents...14:08
jonwil(win32 SEH in GCC)14:08
jon_yit expires in 201414:08
jon_yso, soon14:08
divVerentwait, really? Win95 had SEH?14:11
divVerentor did they patent it then not use it for ages?14:11
jonwilMicrosoft doesn't hold the patent IIRC14:11
jonwilIIRC its Borland that does14:12
jonwilor whoever inherited it from the corpse of Borland14:12
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jonwilAs a software developer I think software patents are stupid period for all sorts of reasons.14:12
divVerent"depends" but usually this is the case14:13
divVerentespecially patents on file format reading just shouldn't exist, ever14:13
jogago NZ14:13
bennypr0fanegry MS didn't buy all of Nokia, just their "devices&services"14:13
jogaI wonder if rubber boots are "devices" or not14:14
jaskawading device14:14
jaskabut tires and such were spun off much earlier14:14
grybennypr0fane: yes, that's what I meant. sorry for being vague. (that was the main part of it that I knew of.)14:14
jonwilThe patents on things like MPEG or Elliptic Curve Cryptography are definatly one of the kinds of patents that really need to go away14:14
bennypr0fanedivVerent, jonwil , SEH is this?
divVerentjonwil: sort of, indeed14:16
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jonwilSEH in this case is this14:16
divVerentI understand that patents on encoding algorithms MIGHT be useful. Decompression of videos however MUST be free.14:16
jon_yjonwil: yes, borland patents14:16
divVerentBut even if they are useful, 20 years is INSANE in this field.14:16
jon_ythough they promised not to sue14:16
bennypr0fanedivVerent, I'm interested in that "patents on file format reading" area. It seems to me that Linux (-applications) cannot read all the metadata of MS office files, specifically author, keywords,... the classic set also attached to all PDFs14:18
bennypr0faneyou guys know anything about that?14:19
bennypr0faneI keep wonderin if that's anything to do with the closed file MS formats, or rather with the file systems14:20
bennypr0fane*closed MS file formats14:20
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bennypr0fanedivVerent, I think the way patents are handled by the US jurisdiction is just generally insane overall14:21
divVerentbennypr0fane: no, that isn't a patent issue14:21
divVerentmore of a lack of useful documentation issue14:21
divVerentbennypr0fane: especially bad are "unavoidable patents" for supporting a file format14:21
divVerente.g. S3TC14:21
divVerentI wonder if the final one of the S3TC patents is finally killed?14:21
divVerentthree out of four were down'd by Apple14:21
jonwilPatents on file SYSTEMS are the lowest of the low and really need to go14:22
jon_yFAT is still patented14:22
jon_yMS trying to push exFAT14:22
divVerentyou mean VFAT :P14:22
jonwili.e. all the various FAT type patents Microsoft is so fond of using to kill their competitors14:22
divVerentoriginal FAT is expired14:22
divVerentbut the long file name extensions aren't14:22
jon_ywell, exFAT going to go another 20 years14:22
bennypr0faneWUT? FAT is patented?14:22
divVerentFAT was, but is too old now14:23
divVerentonly the Win95-introduced LFN extension still has SOME validity time left14:23
jon_yyeah, original DOS FAT is no longer under patent14:23
jon_yVFAT aka long file names is14:23
jon_yFAT32 also, probably14:23
keriowho the hell would *want* a patent for vfat14:23
divVerentno, FAT32 did not add anything vs FAT14:23
divVerentnothing to patent there14:23
kerioi'd be ashamed of it14:23
divVerentVFAT is the issue, though :P14:23
divVerentkerio: hehe14:23
jonwilIt seems like Microsoft will continue to have device makers and memory card makers over a barrel because they will never support any filesystems on Windows that they dont own and control14:24
jonwiltherefore device makers have to use the MS file systems (i.e. fat and now exfat)14:24
jonwiland pay MS the royalties14:24
divVerentjonwil: that's the idea14:24
divVerentthe only ones who would have a chance to achieve something else is Apple...14:24
divVerentbut then it's THEIR patented crap14:24
kerionot only that14:24
kerioapple sucks at file systems too14:24
kerioHFS+ is such a bad filesystem14:25
bennypr0fanehow long have all you guys been in programming? I'm starting IT school right now, yesterday was my first day14:25
divVerentthat too14:25
divVerentkerio: fun fact: you can make working .dmg files on Linux14:25
divVerenttool: mkisofs :P14:25
jon_ybennypr0fane: 4 years? :)14:25
divVerentOS X mounts ISOs perfectly fine if renamed to .dmg14:25
divVerenteven WITHOUT the HFS extensions14:25
bennypr0faneI'm really excited14:25
kerioOS X mounts ISOs perfectly fine, period14:25
keriothe default action for .iso files is to mount them14:25
divVerentkerio: oh right... still .dmg is needed so the apple fanboys are happy14:25
jon_ybennypr0fane: make sure you learn C, don't give a crap about those hipsters that say C is outdated14:25
jon_yit is the very foundation to understand what is going on behind the JVM14:26
divVerentC is outdated, but so? Doesn't make it not useful.14:26
bennypr0fanejon_y you mean 4 years work, or 4 years ago you started your education?14:26
keriojon_y: he's starting IT school, he's not going to learn how to program14:26
jon_y4 years since I learned programming14:26
divVerentYou won't write a whole web forum in C, for example :P14:26
keriohe'll probably learn how to program in spite of his IT school14:26
divVerentyou COULD, but it'd be stupid14:26
* bennypr0fane heard real men code in C :-D14:26
keriodivVerent: and by stupid, you mean AWESOME14:26
divVerentthat too14:26
jon_yof course you won't do it in C, you get the basics in C14:26
divVerentbut total waste of time14:26
jogafirst time I programmed some 23 years ago or something, but never really worked as a programmer (I'm concerned I would be too stressful for me) ;p14:27
jon_yand for goodness sake, read the linkers and loaders pdf too14:27
divVerentthe knowledge is important14:27
divVerentof how stuff actually works14:27
jon_yunderstand wtf is going on when you run programs14:27
jonwilI am a programmer by profession although I have not been able to find a job in my area for a while14:27
divVerentor you e.g. use C++ then don't understand why something weird is happening14:27
bennypr0fanelinkers and loaders pdf?14:27
jon_yit is free, find it on google14:27
divVerentlike "why can't I just return a reference to a local variable?"14:27
jogait's good to know low-level stuff14:28
jon_yteach you about executable file formats14:28
jogaif only to remind you there's something else under all that crap14:28
bennypr0fanejonwil, that is unusual, no?14:28
jon_yso far it covers linux a.out, elf, win32 PE, and DOS exe and COM14:28
jon_yoh, if you have the time, learn about CPU architecture design too14:29
jon_yknow it when sales people are bullshitting you on hardware14:29
bennypr0faneIt's always seemed to me (from the outside, so far) that low-level programming is the most highbrow studd to understand14:29
jon_yhighbrow how?14:29
jonwilThe problem I am finding is that all the people offering programming jobs in my area are asking for 2 or 3 or 5 years experience in technologies I dont really understand14:29
jon_yjonwil: opensource doesn't count? :(14:29
bennypr0fanejonwil, which technologies?14:30
bennypr0faneis it this one?
jonwilStuff like .NET C# SSIS CRM Oracle J2EE MVC ASP and some others I cant remember off the top of my head14:31
jon_yew, J2ME14:31
jonwiloh and Sharepoint too14:31
divVerent13:31:06           jonwil | Stuff like .NET C# SSIS CRM Oracle J2EE MVC ASP and some14:31
bennypr0fane you can't code anything other than Windows programs in .NET, can you?14:31
jon_yI worked on this Java codebase before, it was so enterprisy14:31
divVerentof these, I would probably not admit the J2EE part :P14:31
jon_yclass inheriting classes14:32
divVerentI never list Java related stuff on my resume because I hate the Java runtime library14:32
jon_ybase class did not have any prublic methods14:32
divVerentdon't want to code Java all day\14:32
jon_yand using instanceof() in derived classes14:32
jon_ywhy do you even do that14:32
divVerentusing instanceof explicitly?14:32
divVerentwell, first... SOME uses are there14:33
jon_ythis code should be on thedailywtf14:33
divVerente.g. if you have a derived method taking another object14:33
jon_ydivVerent: it was doing if-else instanceof14:33
divVerentyou may want to know if the other object is of your derived class or if you only can assume the base class14:33
divVerentinstanceof of ANOTHER than your current class is weird14:33
divVerentbut e.g. derived Equals methods tend to do check for the other object to be instanceof your own class14:33
jon_yif(instanceof) dothis else if(instanceof) dosomething .....14:33
divVerentI hope they didn't do this in the base class, even14:34
jon_ylong long chains for each branch of the inheritance14:34
jon_ybase class didn't have anything14:34
divVerentthe base class containing an instanceof chain mention all subclasses...14:34
jon_yno public methods14:34
divVerentthat would be DailyWTF worthy14:34
bennypr0faneIn your opinion, what is the best channel to hang out in for getting help with newbie issues? And the kind of questions I asked above?14:34
divVerentmore DailyWTF score if the subclasses are all empty14:34
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jon_yall this was just a tree structure implementation14:34
divVerentand all logic is done by instanceof in the base class :P14:34
divVerentthis is almost as good as the for-case paradigm then :P14:35
jon_yalso, it had add() but no remove() in the derived classes14:35
divVerenthaha, really?14:35
divVerentwell, remove() not defined in the parent then, I hope14:35
jon_yoh we're agile, we don't need it yet14:35
jon_yas I said, base class had nothing14:35
divVerentthen it's actually SOMEWHAT ok...14:35
divVerentexcept for the base class has nothing part14:35
divVerentwhy have that class then14:35
jon_yjust a child array of objects14:36
jon_yI asked the same thing14:36
divVerentthat also means the abstract base class didn't implement an interface defining the methods, right?14:36
jon_ygot no response other than because it was there already14:36
bennypr0fanenot that I think you guys can't help me, but it's obviously more for experienced people in here :-)  (besides the fact that we've been off topic for hours)14:36
jon_yit only had a private array of object called "child"14:36
jon_yor was it protected I can't remember14:37
divVerentjon_y: haha... maybe anonymize that in a few months and post to dailywtf?14:37
jon_yyeah, I don't even want to dig it up14:37
jon_ythankfully I don't work on it anymore14:37
jon_ythe program was a monstermash of TCSH, BASH, Java, Perl and C14:38
divVerentspeaking of dailywtf: recently sent this to them: view-source:http://www.led24.ch14:38
divVerentbut probably won't make it to the frong page14:38
jon_ythe program was converted from C++, so I heard14:38
jon_ybut half way through they found out Java had no fork()14:38
divVerentthey apparently wanted to make sure that the newline at the bottom of the HTML source is in Arial 20, and not in Times 24 like the rest14:39
jon_ynor did it have any PID/process management calls14:39
divVerentjon_y: haha, Java and fork()...14:39
divVerentreminds me of something :P Android-related...14:39
divVerentand OpenSSL-related14:39
jon_yyou know what they did? :)14:39
divVerentit's public, the android openssl thing that led to bitcoins being stolen14:39
jon_yran a process starter on itself and restarted itself again14:40
divVerentlong story short: Android loads OpenSSL, then uses fork().14:40
divVerentAnd OpenSSL is not fork-safe14:40
divVerentas in, the random number generator state is just cloned too14:40
divVerentso all apps had the same RNG state14:40
jon_ywell duh, static structures are cloned14:40
divVerentand the best part14:40
jon_ythat would be the whole point of fork()14:41
divVerentthis very same bug also hit PostgreSQL and Ruby14:41
divVerentyes, there was in all of them lack of special handling for invalidating the state on fork14:41
divVerente.g. by adding more randomness from /dev/urandom14:41
jon_y>counting on urandom for anything serious14:41
divVerentthat's kinda ok in this case14:41
divVerentit only matters that the mixed in state is different :P14:41
divVerentin this specific case, that is, not in general14:42
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divVerenteven using the PID would be secure enough, assuming a cryptographically secure PRNG14:42
divVerentwell... and what did OpenSSL do? It DID use the PID...14:42
divVerenthowever, PIDs can repeat, which is why exactly this does not suffice14:42
divVerentan ever increasing counter would have done then14:42
divVerentor using the PID at the right time14:42
divVerente.g. mixing in the child process's PID when the parent forked14:42
jon_yoh, there is another wtf from the java program, well on the current maintainer anyway14:43
divVerentthing is, if a RNG is cryptographically secure, and you fork the state14:43
divVerentand one process mixes in 1, the other mixes in 014:43
jon_yfor-loops and parallelism, oh boy14:43
divVerentthen an attacker still can't infer anything about the other process's RNG from its own one14:43
jon_yunlooping the for loops so each elements can be fed into a parallel scheduler is apparently bad14:44
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divVerentfor-loops and parallelism, how is that a wtf?14:44
divVerentoh, wait... a tight for loop handld THAT way?14:44
jon_ybecause multithreaded code is hard to read and we need the UI to block to show the user it is doing something14:44
jon_ywhy!!!!?? you call yourself a phd and you say that!!!14:44
divVerentwhy not just #pragma omp for14:44
jon_yit is a java program14:45
divVerentI know14:45
divVerentjust saying... one CAN do it right14:45
jon_ymore like looping down a tree structure14:45
divVerentoh wait, parallel tree traversal?14:45
divVerentTHAT sounds... insane14:45
jon_yunlooping involves flattening it first14:45
divVerentwhich is already a full tree traversal14:45
jon_yand the feeding all the elements into a job scheduler14:45
jonwilI wish more people would take security (including cryptography, SQL injection etc) more seriously14:45
divVerentjonwil: indeed14:46
jon_ythat was my idea anyway14:46
divVerentbut in this case, I have a hard time blaming anyone14:46
divVerentregarding OpenSSL vs fork14:46
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jon_ynope, lead developer insists on using for loops and recursive calls14:46
divVerentOpenSSL guys say they want portable code, no unixisms like doing something odd to catch fork use (and be it by pthread_atfork)14:46
divVerentand Android/Postgres/Ruby guys... well14:46
divVerentOpenSSL kinda HID the issue by mixing in the PID on each random call14:47
jon_ygranted I'm not majoring in compsci, but guys, why you hate multithread so much?14:47
divVerentso they quickly tested, saw "ah, the state differed", and were happy14:47
divVerentjon_y: I don't hate it14:47
divVerentI hate ugly code from it14:47
divVerentbut one can write it well too14:47
jon_ydivVerent: I mean the lead developer14:47
divVerentI know14:47
kerioopenssh abuses every cute little feature of openbsd, on the other hand14:47
divVerenthe has once seen really bad threaded code14:47
divVerentand then hated threads in general14:47
jon_yhow hard can flattening a tree structure be?14:48
keriojon_y: what's wrong with urandom? :o14:48
divVerentJUST the flattening? Easy.14:48
kerioisn't it guaranteed to be crypto-secure?14:48
divVerentkerio: "sort of"14:48
divVerentit's still a PRNG14:48
jon_ykerio: urandom is not guaranteed to have enough randomness14:48
divVerentbut I would still trust it over whatever some library provides - and be it OpenSSL14:48
divVerentjon_y: neither is any other PRNG14:48
divVerentlike OpenSSL's14:48
divVerentP stands for pseudo after all14:48
jon_yrandom would block if there isn't enough randomness14:49
divVerentif you want that, do that14:49
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divVerentin this specific case, I probably would rather have read 16 bytes of /dev/random on fork14:49
jon_yurandom is "give me something, I don't care how random it is"14:49
divVerent128 bits of extra entropy per process is probably enough14:49
divVerentand usually doesn't block14:49
jon_yeven if it is not14:49
keriojon_y: but it's crypto-secure!14:49
kerioit says so14:49
divVerenturandom is about as crypto secure as OpenSSL's :P14:50
divVerentboth shouldn't claim it14:50
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jon_yoh, btw, the java program calls a small C program that read timestamps etc14:50
jon_ythe lead programmer said the java code did it too slowly14:50
jon_yreally, you wonder why14:51
jon_yunfortunately, the C code was written by an intern that has long left14:51
jon_yusing glib because he didn't know how to do malloc/free memory management14:51
ccxCZwhat video formats/codecs are supported on maemo?14:51
jon_ynor know how to concaternate strings in C14:52
MacerccxCZ: i think only h2xx is supported video hw decoding14:52
Macerbut you can always install mplayer for everything albeit at the expense of cpu14:52
jon_yI have also seen sudo-exec wrappers that join argc together and pass it to system()14:53
MacerccxCZ: there is a site about it14:53
ccxCZso I guess avi for the container14:53
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, video is interrupt 10h for the video BIOS14:53
Macerok that's not it14:53
Macerthere it is14:53
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divVerent13:51:55            jon_y | using glib because he didn't know how to do15:29
divVerent                          | malloc/free memory management15:29
divVerentjon_y: wait15:29
divVerentglib doesn't solve this either15:29
divVerentso you SURE have a leak there :P15:29
divVerent13:53:22            jon_y | I have also seen sudo-exec wrappers that join argc together and pass it to15:30
divVerent                          | system()15:30
divVerentjon_y: ARGH... TOTALLY reminds me of an old project15:30
divVerenttask: they are in PHP, and want to send a command to a serial port15:30
divVerentproblem: they don't know that fopen() works on devices too, and can't access it from PHP anyway15:31
divVerenttheir solution: run apache process as root, and PHP code like this:15:31
divVerent  open /tmp/temp via fopen15:31
divVerent  write to it: "echo $stuff > /dev/ttyS1"15:32
divVerent  system("chmod +x /tmp/temp")15:32
divVerent  system("/tmp/temp")15:32
divVerentdo I have to mention that $stuff also came from the user and was not sanitized...15:32
divVerentalso, obviously there was nothing to prevent the obvious race condition(s)15:33
divVerentthe only GOOD part: this stuff isn't connected to the internet, usually. Only to a home automation network.15:33
divVerentbut it does beat the "internet cafe" I r00ted via netscape (to get rid of the restrictions and timer of free use)15:34
divVerentthey had restrictions via a proxy setting in netscape... but there was ONE trick. ONE link on the mainpage opened in new window. That window had a menu bar, so I could turn off the proxy. Voila, free access.15:34
divVerentthen used the window's address bar to look around... essentially associated *.sh with the shell in netscape settings, and used JavaScript:'some text' then File/save as to create scripts I could run15:35
divVerentthe timer daemon ran as another user... not bad15:35
divVerentbut as root... a bit worse15:35
divVerentbut the kiosk user had kiosk ALL=(ALL) ALL in /etc/sudoers... THAT was bad15:36
divVerentso having found that, kill -STOP timerpid and the thing was free :P15:36
divVerent(with sudo)15:36
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divVerentoh, I forgot the NOPASSWD: part :P15:37
jon_ydivVerent: oh now I remember15:39
LjL-Alpsam i supposed to confirm somewhere (and if so, where) that the cssu-devel fix for SUPL works?15:39
jon_ywait, glib does do some momory management stuff15:40
jon_ya long with some utility code15:40
freemangordonLjL-Alps: oncssu-devel thread?15:41
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, cssu-devel is, or extremely deprecated for any non-developer15:41
LjL-Alpsfreemangordon: ok, i didn't know whether an influx of "me too" would be welcome there15:42
jon_ydivVerent: well, I did not have your level of exploit :)15:42
jon_ymost of this stuff was written by guys used to writing shell scripts15:43
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jon_yI'm tempted to give "script kiddie" another meaning15:43
jon_yalt meaning is "guys who write shell scripts, should not be trusted with anything compiled"15:44
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freemangordonLjL-Alps: hmm? wouldn't be wecomed by whom?15:44
LjL-Alpsfreemangordon: by TMO at large. anyway i guess maybe if i just say "it works" here in your presence, that'll be enough feedback? :P15:45
freemangordonthe whole point of that thread is to report cssu-devel related stuff15:45
LjL-Alpsfair enough15:45
LjL-Alpsi'll try and then give it a post15:45
freemangordonno change for google supl15:46
freemangordonit still doesn;t work15:46
LjL-Alpsah, no change? some people on the thread said it started working too15:46
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freemangordonNFC, it has never stopped working for me :D15:46
LjL-Alpsoh :P15:46
freemangordonbut that might by just my MNO supl working, not google15:47
LjL-Alpsyour what, freemangordon?15:47
freemangordonmobile network operator15:47
LjL-Alpsi thought Maemo only used the one specified in the settings15:47
freemangordonit uses network supplied supl server too, if any15:48
freemangordonbut first tries the one in the settings15:48
LjL-Alpsi wonder if carriers charge for data usage (assuming you don't have a flat plan) when connecting to their own supl15:49
freemangordonnfc, i have data plan15:50
LjL-Alpsme too, just idly wondering15:50
freemangordonI guess it is similar to MMS15:51
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LjL-Alpsi wish i had brought a usb hub with me, or whatever would work to connect to the RTLSDR16:14
LjL-Alpsexcept, i have!!!16:16
LjL-Alpshost mode here i come16:16
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LjL-Alpsyayayay it works16:18
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divVerentnews about my trying to make an unsupported headset work via alsamixer:16:22
divVerentthe mic just can't be used, as expected16:22
divVerentthe headphones work, but the mic port can only be set to float, not ground16:22
divVerentby that alsamixer setting that decides what type of device is plugged in16:22
divVerentbasically means no stere, but I hear difference of L and R16:23
edheldilLjL-Alps:  do you use DVB-T dongle with it?16:23
divVerentstill... not bad, works as "emergency headphones" that way16:23
divVerentBTW, hint to those who don't know: alsamixer -c 0 is the trick to get useful settings and not pulseaudio crap :P16:24
LjL-Alpsedheldil: that's the idea, but so far i've only checked that the DVB-T dongle powers up, and that some MP3 player goes into mass storage mode. still not tried anything else16:24
edheldilah, I thought you were interested in the RTLSDR part :)16:26
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LjL-Alpsedheldil: i am16:29
LjL-Alpsedheldil: i'm just saying, so far i didn't get RTLSDR working. only hostmode. but that's a start116:29
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LjL-Alpsespecially since i didn't think i had a cable that could do USB-OTG16:29
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Siceloso it's happened :(18:30
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jonwilMe, I will continue to use (and hack on and play with) my N900 until it either dies and becomes unusable, until something happens at my carrier that renders it unusable (e.g. if my carrier stops using frequencies the N900 supports) or until a better phone comes along (which at this point is highly unlikely)18:35
Sicelome too jonwil. my N900 is my daily device. i still have a working n-gage too, and a 9300i communicator which i gave away, but it's found it's way back to me.18:36
* Sicelo feels like removing the nokia logo from the bezel18:36
jonwilMy N900 is also my daily (and only) phone.18:36
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Siceloand good to see you jonwil :)18:37
jonwilI fear that no company will have the willingness to make a high-end smartphone with a full physical QWERTY again anytime soon18:38
jonwilwhich means if my N900 dies, my only options are to buy a used N900 as a replacement or give up my love of physical keyboards :(18:38
Siceloeven if they did, might just be so closed that you can't do anything on such a phone18:38
jonwilyeah that would suck18:39
jonwilSeems like all the interest in reverse engineering this phone and figuring out how it works seems to have died off, even I cant get inspired to get back into reverse engineering if no-one out there cares about my results18:42
Sicelowhat makes you feel that way?18:43
jonwiljust general observations from what I see on tmo etc18:43
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Siceloas far as i can tell, from user POV, interest is still high18:43
jonwilI have noticed that in the past there was a sort of "hey, if we can replace <closed source subsystem x> with something better, that's a good thing" (e.g. ICD or MCE) but now the attitude I observe from the technical people is "forget about it, if it works, why bother trying to replace it"18:45
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Sicelohmm. :(18:45
Palijonwil: probably you means me: I wrote that about closed source ipv6 module for icd218:46
Sicelowell, i know for sure that some (Pali, FMG) are still pushing to have stuff replaced, incl. the kernel18:46
Siceloah, there's Pali to speak for himself :)18:46
PaliI wrote that because it really does not make sense to RE only one closed plugin in big ICD218:46
Paliand it really does not make sense to RE ICD218:47
Palibetter network daemon should be written from scratch and only needs to have icd2 i2c interface18:47
Paliwhich is of cource public18:47
jonwilIt matters to reverse engineer ICD2 and its plugins as other things talk to it via not just dbus18:48
jonwilbut also via other methods that are not documented18:48
Paliso only RE API18:48
Pali(documented/undocumented dbus/IPC)18:49
jonwilThats what I have been doing over time18:49
jonwilreverse engineering the interfaces to ICD and its plugins18:49
jonwilbut its hard18:49
Sicelo\o/ jonwil18:49
jonwilespecially when dealing with things like gconf18:49
Palijonwil: freemangordon and ade wanted to RE some hildon code18:50
Palimaybe you can help18:50
jonwilwhat hildon code specifically?18:50
Palihildon code for notification or something similar18:50
Palibad that he is offline now :-(18:50
Paliwill try to look at chanlog18:50
jonwilsounds like hildon-plugins-notify-sv package18:51
PaliI think yes18:51
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jonwilI have tried to re that but its too hard :(18:52
Pali libhildon-plugins-notify-sv.so18:52
Palijonwil: it is really hard to RE this? ^18:53
jonwillast I checked it was annoying to RE, yes18:54
Paliand systemui or clockd daemon?18:54
dos11I guess Microsoft-Nokia news has been already mentioned here gasilion times18:55
jonwilboth also hard to RE18:55
dos11but have you seen the true story behind it?
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Siceloyes dos1. i'm late to the party. but the news is still scary enough. anyways18:57
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shenteywhat about using connman as icd2 replacement?18:58
Orguljonwil, Pali: while on one hand I don't mind to get meamo more open if it's RE'd but on the other hand didn't you already do a lot and upstream pretty much everything? shouldn't you be at the point where you could simply compile a new os without maemo closed bits?18:59
jonwilWe are nowhere near that level18:59
jonwilPlenty of key parts that have not been REd or replaced18:59
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Orguljonwil: if you want to stay compatible with maemo or generaly spoken?19:01
jonwilIf you just want "an OS" on the N900, there are ways to do it with minimal binary blobs (GPU driver being one of the few that still remain)19:02
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SiceloOrgul: also N900 hardware itself.. afaik, we don't yet have good power-savings out of Maemo for example19:02
keriothat's just a matter of correct configuration though19:02
kerioit's not dependent on any closed blob19:02
Orgulokay, let's set GPU aside. Is it still impossible to do a meamo like os for n900? based on upstream software? I mean I still don't get modem to work in debian but you guys are probably got this.19:05
Siceloi did do GPRS/D3G in Debian.. that part is easy19:06
infobotSicelo meant: i did do GPRS/3G in Debian.. that part is easy19:07
Orgulso from my point of view all that missing is a nice gui for phone calls. okay, I nice gui in general in debian but I keep wondering why still maemo.19:08
jonwilsomeone with greater RE skills than me could probably reverse engineer the x86 versions of hildon-plugins-notify-sv, systemui or clockd19:08
jonwilbut I lack the skills to RE those binaries19:08
kerioOrgul: you're actually missing programs that don't drain your battery by using the cpu when backgrounded, for instance19:09
Sicelonot to disturb your train of thought jonwil .. question: what uses the x86 version of the binaries? surely in scratchbox arm binaries are used..19:10
jonwilno, x86 is used in scratchbox19:10
Orgulkerio: ok, yes. debian wise. in case you guys do something new, and use a recent kernel you could implement upstreamed android bits, like wakelocks and stuff. I mean it's there, it could as well be used.19:11
kerioyeah, shit like that is the reason android sucks19:11
Sicelointeresting. 10 times wanted to setup scratchbox already.. but each time stopped because i don't really know 'what then?'19:12
kerioprograms might have a valid reason to do stuff in background19:12
kerioi'd expect them to do that stuff, were i using one of those programs19:12
Orgulkerio: I don't know much about it, but I don't think it impossible to have background application running. It's a matter of configuration. other then that it's a power saving feature. Sorry if I am wrong or imposing.19:14
jonwilI do wonder what libhildon-plugins-notify-sv is doing though and why it needed to be closed-source19:14
Sicelonot imposing at all :)19:14
keriothe thing is, (most) current maemo programs already know how to behave19:15
Sicelobut Orgul, android's way is clearly 'feature-phone' like :p19:15
kerioprograms installed straight from the debian repos are much less guaranteed19:15
jonwilSeems mostly to be related to playing sounds and things (e.g. vibra) for events like incoming phone call, incoming SMS, alarm, incoming IM etc.19:16
OrgulSicelo: true, but it does save power, doesn't it? it was just an Idea. I am not competent enough to give help anyway. Just thinking.19:19
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kerioOrgul: the thing is, it implies a lack of trust in the programmer19:20
DocScrutinizer05FYI: first hand info about smartreflex aka SR: >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<<19:21
* infobot grabs a SteamRoller flag and cuddles up to docscrutinizer0519:22
Orgulkerio: you mean trust in programmer to design their application to use little power ?19:22
Orgulah, ok. that was a bit difficult. glad I got it.19:23
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DocScrutinizer05~#maemo sr is <reply>[SmartReflex] >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<<19:23
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay19:23
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DocScrutinizer05jon_y: possible19:25
DocScrutinizer05a nice new puzzle for you ;-)19:26
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: how about giving infraction points to a process for each call to usleep() ?19:27
DocScrutinizer05on 666 infraction points the kernel sends a mail to debian repo to nuke the package off the planet19:28
kerioalso lol regarding the sr quote19:30
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SAiFwhat is the practical download speed limit in n90019:53
keriohow blue is the sky?19:53
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SAiFkerio was that a reply to me?19:54
SAiFsky is kinda blue.. and now its black here19:55
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SAiFI think there is  a limit at somewhere around 500kbps?19:56
SAiFin practice..19:56
kerioi don't see why that would be19:56
SAiFWell, I may try local now..\19:57
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SAiFKerio, Well I got it, 1350kbps right. Is there something wrong now on my device? This time its from a local PC via Wlan,20:08
SAiFThe other was my downloads speeds..20:08
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SAiFactually KB/s20:10
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freemangordonqwazix: the front camera is actually VGA, I won;t call that crappy :P20:22
freemangordonit is the way it is used that sucks20:22
freemangordonboth skype and gtalk are not using VGA, but 320x240 (QVGA?)20:23
LjL-Alpsit seems to have a number of dead pixels for me20:23
freemangordonqwazix: nikocam can use front cam, try it someday and play a bit with brigtness, contrast, etc. You'll see it is far from "that bad" :)20:24
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LjL-Alpswait what is nikocam now, other name for camera-ui2?20:29
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qwazixfreemangordon, I admit i haven't used nikocam with the front camera, but i played a bit with mirror and I could barely see myself21:23
qwazixVGA is not bad, not even QVGA, it was the brightness that I thought crappy, but maybe that's software too21:24
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sixwheeledbeastfreemangordon: tracker-cfg has enough votes for promotion but no maintainer.... I thought I'd mention this as you pushed it to testing IIRC. :)21:33
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raccoon_hey, is it allowed to request for used n900 in here? just got mine stolen...21:36
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jogaraccoon_ oh no :(21:41
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jogaI've been looking for some backup or two or three of them too...but should've bought them when they were still around in auctions, not so much anymore21:42
raccoon_same here... i managed to find it on a local web based flea market21:42
jogafortunately my gf also has one, maybe she'll get something else eventually ;p21:42
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raccoon_for an awesome price, previous owner thought it was useless and sub-par technology wise21:42
jogayeah, I got the second one essentially free21:43
raccoon_not saying i assume to score one like that again though, i'll happily pay $whatever for one as long as the usb port is ok21:44
jogahmm...seems like one n950 on auction heh21:44
joga210 euros upwards :P21:44
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raccoon_yeah, figures... :-P21:46
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jogahmm... so there's something called Neo900 ._o21:47
* joga squees21:47
raccoon_yeah it's the new open source prototype codename21:49
raccoon_it's been discussed in here quite a bit21:49
raccoon_or one of the codenames, i guess21:49
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: nope, that's evidently frontcam that needs _much_ light to be barely usable at all21:50
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DocScrutinizer05no sw issue21:54
DocScrutinizer05terribly noisy even with good light21:54
qwazixthat's what I thought too21:54
qwazixfmg suggests otherwise21:54
DocScrutinizer05btw much the same like on N81021:55
qwazixnever even tried the N810 cam21:57
qwazixI don't know if my unit's camera even operates21:57
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EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: is updated automatically?22:18
EarthwingsDocScrutinizer05: or rephrased: i just promoted marble-maps and voted for marble, but neither change appears there. should i worry about that?22:19
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DocScrutinizer05it can take several hours I guess.22:38
DocScrutinizer05please recheck tomorrow and if nothing happened (or sth bad happened) then ask freemangordon or merlin1991 about it. I'm not experienced in repository management and package interface and autobuilder22:40
DocScrutinizer05it seems the guys yesterday found some flaws/bugs introduced be the mess that came with fremantle-1.3 repo which basically never should have existed at all.22:41
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DocScrutinizer05freemangordon yesterday said he'll go to fix stuff today, but iirc he later on realized that this might not be exactly easy to fix, or at least needs further evaluation and investigation to assure we don't break 80% of users' auto-update when we replace fremantle-1.3 true repository by a symlink to fremantle repository22:43
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DocScrutinizer05when fremantle-1.3 ever had some sound rationale, then as a symlink to fremantle (or maybe fremantle a symlink to fremantle-1.3) until eventually we move on to fremantle-1.422:45
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DocScrutinizer05the concept probably being: devices update from fremantle-1.3 while packages go from builder to (symlink) fremantle. When fremantle-1.4 gets released, we create a new repository fremantle-1.4, link fremantle symlink to it and copy the "old" stuff from fremantle-1.3 to fremantle. Then upgrade the fremantle-1.4 repo with new packages and particularly a new catalogs-setting that changes users' catalogs list from fremantle-1.3 to fremantle-1.22:49
DocScrutinizer054 during the system update.22:49
DocScrutinizer05thos users who DON'T update to fremantle-1.4 can then still install (app) package versions - e.g. during osso-backup resore process - that match their OS, since they would fetch them from fremantle-1.4 repo, not from fremantle-1.422:50
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DocScrutinizer05alas during migration#1/consolidation (or even earlier than that) somehow the symlink mutated into a real directory aka separate repository, so we now have a fremantle-1.33 and a fremantle repo and both are not in sync and nobody has a clue what gets done where22:52
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: alas during migration#1/consolidation (or even earlier than that) somehow the symlink mutated into a real directory aka separate repository, so we now have a fremantle-1.3 and a fremantle repo and both are not in sync and nobody has a clue what gets done ...22:52
DocScrutinizer05current concerns raised are: will fremantle repo work with fremantle-1.3 Packages.gz?22:54
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xesDocScrutinizer05: no23:08
xesDocScrutinizer05: fremantle repo contains many more packages than fremantle-1.3 (so these packages are not listed into fremantle-1.3's Packages.gz)23:09
DocScrutinizer05xes: it's not primarily about the differences in content between the two repos. It's about if a Package.gz built for fremantleA/ repo can work when user uses the symlink fremantleB/ to access the package23:11
DocScrutinizer05the differneces need to get merged I'd guess, so the final merged repo contains all the newest freshest packages of both23:12
xesDocScrutinizer05: common packages are inside the same structure23:12
DocScrutinizer05xes: actually that "many more packages in fremantle than in fremantle-1.3" supports my above made assumtion that autobuilder builds into fremantle but devices update from fremantle-1.323:13
xesif i'm not wrong, latest package in fremantle-1.3 reports well know date of 2012122823:14
DocScrutinizer05sounds about conclusive23:15
LjL-Alpshold on a second, is the fact basically everything i have comes from extras-devel and little to none from extras because i have extras enabled as fremantle-1.3? ;(23:15
DocScrutinizer05for extras-devel there should no such thing like fremantle-1.3 or fremantle-1.2 at all23:16
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DocScrutinizer05should be no*23:16
LjL-Alpsyeah i have fremantle on extras-devel, but i had fremantle-1.3 on extras23:17
xesone more thing: fremantle-1.2 == fremantle-1.323:17
DocScrutinizer05since extras-devel is considered rolling release23:17
DocScrutinizer05that's fine, xes23:17
DocScrutinizer05we need to keep fremantle-1.2 as is. We need to rename fremantle to fremantle-1.3. We need to create a symlink from fremantle to fremantle-1.323:19
DocScrutinizer05(tha latter mainly for autobuilder)23:19
xesDocScrutinizer05:  sorry you lost me.. why do we need to preserve fremantle-1.2?23:20
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DocScrutinizer05well, actually we probably don't, since it got corrupted a long time ago when it is identical to fremantle-1.3 as of end of last year23:25
DocScrutinizer05so it's useless for users still running pr1.2 on their devices anyway, and we as well can nuke it all together23:26
DocScrutinizer05but not before we checked for any packages in there that by bad luck are fresher than the corresponding pkg in fremantle23:27
DocScrutinizer05it's actualy no surprise that we see extremely low load on our uplink after initial burst for a week. 98% of devices check maemo-extras_fremantle-1.3 and that aiui hasn't seen *any* updates or changed Packages.gz since last new year23:30
* DocScrutinizer05 prepares for complete congestion of network uplink after we fixed that fremantle-1.3 issue23:31
xesDocScrutinizer05: i would expose here the sqlite db about fremantle/xx comparison so everyone could give his opinion (it could also be a nice tool to search for packages)23:32
DocScrutinizer05sqlite db?23:32
DocScrutinizer05you mean the files on cloud-7?23:33
DocScrutinizer05go ahead, that's why I uploaded them to this location23:33
xesso, this is the db containing the fremantle/fremantle-1.2/fremantle-1.3 comparison until 20130617:
xesbunzip pkg.db.bz2, and for example:  sqlite3 pkg.db "select *  from fremantle where not in (select from fremantle13);" Will list the packages present in fremantle but not in fremantle-1.323:38
DocScrutinizer05xes: could you create a symlink from fremantletest -> fremantle and then find a few users willing to test the fremantletest catalog/repo in apt and HAM?23:39
DocScrutinizer05if that works, and we don't find any pkgs in fremantle-1.[23] which are newer than same pkg in fremantle, then I think we are good to rename fremantle to fremantle-1.3 and create a symlink fremantle->fremantle-1.3 (and nuke resp move away for now the fremantle1.2 repo)23:42
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xesi think that to make a test we don't need fremantletest. It's enough that the betatesters remove every repo containing fremantle-1.2 or fremantle-1.323:43
xesand they should try to install one of the latest deb just built from autobuilder23:44 the end, my opinion is that renaming and not linking fremantle-1.2 and fremantle-1.3 would force everyone to use only fremantle (doing so we obtain also a bandwidth usage of 1/3 compared to actual situation and a faster apt-get update into the devices)23:46
kerioare those official repos?23:47
kerioif not, fuck em23:47
DocScrutinizer05xes: no! we need to make sure that a renaming of the repo doesn't conflict with any "hardcoded" repo names inside Packages.gz or other signature files etc23:47
DocScrutinizer05and we can't "force" users to do anything like that, since we don't reach them to tell them what to do23:48
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DocScrutinizer05fact is that we have a mixed set of clients: 90+% have fremantle-1.3 for extras repo. Some 10% maybe, have fremantle for extras repo. We can't break stuff for any of them23:50
xesDocScrutinizer05: ok. But, in this moment, everyone without /fremantle/ repos can't pick new packages23:51
DocScrutinizer05that's why we need to fix this23:51
kerioln -s fremantle fremantle-1.323:52
xessure. Does freemangordon has some thought about all this?23:52
DocScrutinizer05thus, again: after testing with fremantletest repo, and after checking for no newer packages in fremantle-1.3, we do: mv fremantle1.2 fremantle-1.2-obsolete; rm fremantle-1.3; mv fremantle fremantle-1.3; ln -s fremantle-1.3 fremantle23:54
DocScrutinizer05xes: ( freemangordon ) I don't know23:55
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DocScrutinizer05his last concern been "will renaming of a repo break apt resp Packages.gz?"23:55
DocScrutinizer05thus we do a test with fremantletest repo symlinking to fremantle23:56
xestalking again about the sqlite db,    sqlite3 pkg.db "select count(distinct name) from fremantle13;"  will count fremantle-1.3 packages, while:    sqlite3 pkg.db "select count(distinct name) from fremantle;" will count the fremantle packages. Results: fremantle-1.3= 72843 fremantle-1.2=72843 fremantle=8357923:57
DocScrutinizer05sounds about right. Now we just need to check if any of the packages in fremantle12 or fremantle13 is newer than the pkg with same basename in fremantle23:59

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