IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2013-09-03

DocScrutinizer05	ack	00:00
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dos1	and there were few posts mentioning wish for changing their votes to higher ones	00:01
DocScrutinizer05	obviously next step is: somebody needs to do a rough port of fremantle to a GTA04 and show off some basic icon juggling and a xterm	00:01
dos1	and /me, who failed to notice "complete device" in poll question and voted for what he'd pay at most, even if only for board	00:02
DocScrutinizer05	haha	00:02
dos1	I wonder if more votes could be higher for the same reason	00:03
DocScrutinizer05	some may go higher, some others may go down, after initial excitement	00:04
dos1	yeah	00:04
DocScrutinizer05	I don't give too much about this poll	00:04
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DocScrutinizer05	it served it's pupose to attract interest	00:05
dos1	let's hope those who will go down are 1000 EUR and will drop to 700 :D	00:05
DocScrutinizer05	users are eager to vote on polls	00:05
DocScrutinizer05	I see this more like a statistic	00:06
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DocScrutinizer05	thus, the >10% are way more exciting to me than the 250 votes total or the 25 votes for >=700	00:07
dos1	right, I was expecting even higher percentage on the left side that it is now	00:07
lexik	I'm still 'initialy excited', the $500 is MINIMUM which i'm ABLE to pay, when i will see working prototype (with camera (!)) and with some +features i can make some +many and pay 700+... but now, it is just 'poll-about-nothing'	00:08
DocScrutinizer05	and we had this ~10% figure from very beginning, and I notice it's increasing slightly, which tells me I suceed in explaining what this device will be and how much it has to cost	00:08
LjL-Alps	i will pay $200 but only if it's got a back glass that GLITTERS	00:09
lexik	when we will have a working prototype, is a fracking good idea to make an kickstarter project where can users offer Neo for better price (that's problem i know..)	00:10
dos1	I'll pay 1337 EUR if it's got ponies everywhere on it!	00:11
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lexik	bronies must die	00:12
DocScrutinizer05	we're still sorting out basic feasibility of whole project (Nikolaus still waiting for a N900 to disassemble and investigate), after that's done we will come up with a sort of cowdfunding for the prototypes	00:12
dos1	lexik: some crowdfunding may be needed for producing prototypes, as those are the costliest beasts	00:12
DocScrutinizer05	first guess is ~10k for prototypes	00:13
FIQ	hi	00:13
lexik	crowdfunding is the only option ;)	00:13
lexik	or some billionaire TMO user	00:14
FIQ	I've been frustrated over some odd bug where xchat will disconnect immediately when reading scrollback containing something evil	00:14
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, again this shit?	00:14
DocScrutinizer05	I thought that got fixed	00:15
FIQ	After some experimenting, I found the bad line -- however I'm not sure if submitting it to a bugtracker would be a good idea due to potential abuse	00:15
DocScrutinizer05	it's basically known	00:15
FIQ	ok	00:15
FIQ	hm	00:15
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DocScrutinizer05	we had similar attack some 1 or two years ago	00:15
FIQ	wonder where I can submit a report about it then	00:16
DocScrutinizer05	http://maemo.cloud-7.de/clean-N900xchat-scrollback-from-rogue-string.sh	00:16
FIQ	# have this rogue string, assuming xchat stopped logging to the file on receiving the string.	00:18
FIQ	this is not fully correct, xchat kept running just fine and logged etc	00:18
Earthwings	hi DocScrutinizer05	00:18
FIQ	only on connect did the issue arise	00:18
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: seems we're close to get shentey into full maintainer role for marble	00:18
FIQ	also it seems to search for something vastly different	00:19
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: one last thing i'd like to do is to make him an admin of the marble package so he can promote packages to -testing	00:19
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: either i miss the correct page to manage that or i can't change that on my own?	00:19
FIQ	sec	00:19
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DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: I didn't say it's a 100% remake of that other attack, I just sayd the hoax is known, based on bugs in utf-8 handling	00:21
DocScrutinizer05	Earthwings: you should be able to change other users' permissions in your project	00:21
DocScrutinizer05	on garage	00:22
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: shentey is marked as an admin there already	00:22
FIQ	ok	00:22
DocScrutinizer05	hmm, then this is another bug in sync-users-groups.php script	00:22
DocScrutinizer05	the script is known to only propagate new users and new projects, but not correctly forwards changes	00:23
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: although i didn't change that setting in years	00:23
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: shall i remove and re-add him? or may that hurt?	00:24
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DocScrutinizer05	ask merlin1991 or freemangordon to fix shentey's permissions on drop and whatever needed	00:24
DocScrutinizer05	errr. I think it won't help since the friggin script also doesn't remove users	00:25
Macer	no lumia 1020 for tmobile . blah heh	00:25
Macer	damn you at&t!	00:25
DocScrutinizer05	lemme check sth	00:25
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DocScrutinizer05	project name is marble?	00:25
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: right	00:25
Earthwings	Added Usershentey2012-11-02 12:10	00:26
Earthwings	so still somehow recent ;-)	00:26
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DocScrutinizer05	sorry, no dice in midgard either. Try to request maintainership for the project	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	http://maemo.org/packages/view/marble/ "Request to be maintainer of this package" ( http://maemo.org/packages/maintainer/request/marble/ )	00:38
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shentey	DocScrutinizer05: requested	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	approved	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	wow, this terribly messed up the package interface page http://maemo.org/packages/view/marble/	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	but it had some effect at least	00:42
shentey	DocScrutinizer05: thx a lot!	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	shentey: please check http://maemo.org/packages/view/marble/	00:43
shentey	I still don't see the promote links	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	thismight take some time to propagate to wherever it's queried anyway	00:45
DocScrutinizer05	check again tomorrow, if it still doesn't work, please pester freemangordon about "promotion not working (only for some maintainers)"	00:45
shentey	I'm listed as maintainer already, though	00:46
DocScrutinizer05	yep	00:46
DocScrutinizer05	this are like 6 VM that need occasional sync	00:46
DocScrutinizer05	done by cronjobs and scripts	00:47
DocScrutinizer05	might even need a new repo build until you're in the list of maintainers for the package to promote, I dunno, really	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, afk	00:48
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shentey	alright, I'll be waiting until the schizophrenia settles ;)	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	:-)	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	sorry for the inconvenience	00:49
shentey	DocScrutinizer05: np, thx for helping me out	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	ooh shentey, Earthwings: what's about monav in extras-devel? should it get fixed, or nuked, or renamed?	00:52
DocScrutinizer05	or might you maybe review your package dependencies in marble?	00:53
shentey	DocScrutinizer05: good question... Earthwings said it wouldn't work with Marble	00:53
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: would love to have it nuked. not sure if anyone might use it though.	00:53
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DocScrutinizer05	who maintains it?	00:53
Earthwings	the file format has changed. monav 0.3 files are incompatible with it	00:54
DocScrutinizer05	couldn'tyou DEPEND on a working revision of monav?	00:54
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: does the package manager handle that?	00:54
DocScrutinizer05	yep, afaik it does	00:54
DocScrutinizer05	check mp-fremantle-pr, full of dependencies to specific versions	00:55
DocScrutinizer05	actually that#s the only purpose of this friggin MP	00:56
Earthwings	shentey: can you check whether that works? changing the monav dependency in the control file	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	maybe you got no dependency on monav at all?	00:57
DocScrutinizer05	anyway, I'm out	00:57
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DocScrutinizer05	OO	00:57
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: ah, right, it's truly optional. iirc i tried with conflicts entries, but the package manager did bring up error messages then (or uninstall packages)	00:58
shentey	yeah, I can try that	00:59
shentey	bot not tonight any more...	01:00
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DocScrutinizer05	dos1: a huge amount of voters will be willing to shell out another 100 or 200 once there's actually something to show off	01:07
DocScrutinizer05	dos1: ideally, a fremantle on GTA04 with above mentioned ison tossing and xterm, plus a compass app	01:08
DocScrutinizer05	to demonstrate you can make use of the new features under good'ole fremantle	01:09
DocScrutinizer05	port friggin SHR dialer or whatever to show GSM working as well ("we will see how much effort it cost us to push maemo dialer to work")	01:10
DocScrutinizer05	should be feasible in a person-week of work	01:10
DocScrutinizer05	after all they ported fremantle to other platforms already	01:11
DocScrutinizer05	(sure also without any of the nokia blobs)	01:11
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shentey	DocScrutinizer05: which platforms?	01:14
DocScrutinizer05	shentey: see	01:15
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142	01:15
dos1	DocScrutinizer05: I agree with you. I'd like to help, but I don't have GTA04, and well, I don't think I want to start porting Fremantle to GTA02 :P	01:17
DocScrutinizer05	shentey: or did you mean this one http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/Maemo_Getting_Started	01:18
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shentey	it's been ported to the BeagleBoard... interesting	01:23
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x29a	oh id love to see the neo900 thing happen	01:38
x29a	but with > 512mb ram	01:38
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entitled	Hardware keyboard or the lack of it, is a deal-breaker for me	01:42
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DocScrutinizer05	both topics already answered in	01:48
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142	01:48
DocScrutinizer05	n900 case has a kbd, and >512MB isn't feasible on DM3730 it seems, but we will try to find a really good alternative	01:49
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dos1	finally!	01:57
dos1	looks like i finally memorized ln syntax correctly!	01:58
nox-	ln works like cp just it doesnt copy but links	01:58
dos1	when I tried to make some symlink, I was always getting arguments in the wrong way :D	01:58
dos1	yeah, now it seems easy... :D	01:59
DocScrutinizer05	I sometimes get weird results on ln, particularly when trying to link a dir	02:01
Macer	hm	02:02
Macer	can't seem to find out where you change the search engine for pale moon	02:02
dos1	DocScrutinizer05: if you mix up the order, then you'll make symlink inside the folder you wanted to link to	02:02
dos1	and that always happened to me... and each time I thought "now i'll do it the other way than usual", but did the same anyway	02:04
dos1	dunno why; now it was the first time i noticed that i did it correctly few times in row :D	02:04
ecc3g	has anyone ever played with an x86 smartphone? I wonder how bad they are in terms of battery life, features, etc. (ignore the OS :)	02:07
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DocScrutinizer05	I think x86 smartphones are vaporware, or a big hoax	02:33
DocScrutinizer05	I son't even know of x86 tablets to be honest	02:33
DocScrutinizer05	don't*	02:33
nox-	maybe he means ultrabooks?	02:37
nox-	but yeah x86 usually needs more power	02:37
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RST38h	Doc: New Galaxy Tab is supposed to be x86 based	02:59
RST38h	Doc: At least this is what leaked specs are saying	02:59
ecc3g	no, there are x86 smartphones out there... not in the US or Europe however...	03:00
* RST38h has fondled an x86 smartphone		03:01
RST38h	Nothing to write home about, really, at least not that initial device	03:01
ecc3g	probably not	03:01
ecc3g	that it sucks battery power like mad is still something that would be interesting to know however...	03:02
RST38h	yes and no	03:02
ecc3g	I just don't know how x86 will get ram on chip...	03:02
RST38h	why does it need to contain ram on chip?	03:03
ecc3g	reduce costs?	03:03
RST38h	sorry?	03:03
RST38h	in a standard PoP, RAM is combined with Flash, not with the CPU	03:04
RST38h	Most "serious" ARM chips do not contain RAM in the same package	03:04
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RiD	heyheyhey! anyone knows how to have better controll over screen brightness on n900?	03:14
RiD	i'd like to set it to the most dim possible, dont know if there's a way	03:14
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DocScrutinizer05	rid should stay a lil longer to listen to the extremely wise and insightful answers he might have gotten	03:31
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DocScrutinizer05	it is about /usr/lib/hal/scripts/hal-functions and /usr/lib/hal/scripts/hal-system-lcd-set-brightness, about /usr/lib/mce/modules/libfilter-brightness-.so, and about /sys/class/backlight/acx565akm/brightness	03:38
RiD	oh by the way i didn't read anything before I left (ran out of battery)	03:39
RiD	before i joined again*	03:39
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ShadowJK	motorola has a x86 phone	04:52
ShadowJK	There are tons of x86 tablets, mostly running windows 8.	04:52
wmarone	and most of those x86 tablets are running powervr graphics gag	04:55
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DocScrutinizer05	I didn't say "there are no x86 tablets", I said "I don't know of any..."	05:35
DocScrutinizer05	And I know there even been a few (dozen?) x86 phones even years ago. Epic fail. Never heard of them again, so: a big hoax.	05:36
DocScrutinizer05	all i recently hear is "tablets go ARM. Win8 goes ARM"	05:38
DocScrutinizer05	not that i'd care much to stay up to date. I'm not really interested in tablets. And for sure I'm not interested in x86 phones for another few years at least	05:39
ShadowJK	Win8 on ARM became a massive flop	05:40
DocScrutinizer05	oooh? good! ;-P	05:40
ShadowJK	(so naturally Elop is going to do Win8-Arm tablet)	05:40
DocScrutinizer05	not that I'd think win8 had any chances to _not_ become a flop on anything, under any circumstances whatsoever	05:41
ShadowJK	iirc, microsoft manufactured w8-arm tablets worth 4 BILLION dollars, and managed to sell a fifth of them after discounting to half the BOM cost.	05:42
DocScrutinizer05	Industry is still on winXP, since everything since been useless for professional use, even at industry level (I consider industry requirements rather undemanding here)	05:43
DocScrutinizer05	they are massively pondering how to migrate to FOSS now	05:43
DocScrutinizer05	municipality often all the same	05:44
* ShadowJK is at work now overseeing one of the fancier pieces of equipment		05:45
ShadowJK	it runs WinCE	05:45
ShadowJK	Windows 8's metro is worse than MS Bob	05:47
ShadowJK	Atleast Bob had a exit button to switch it off	05:47
DocScrutinizer05	who's Bob? zje friggin paperclip?	05:49
ShadowJK	MS Bob was microsoft's previous big attempt at revolutionizing computer interfaces	05:49
ShadowJK	And yeah, paperclip, except 9 of them, in different shapes. And instead of having windows and programs, it was a 3D "Home". To write a document, you navigated to the HomeOffice room, sat down at the desk, and a Dog would come help you write a letter	05:50
DocScrutinizer05	OMG that nonsense	05:52
* DocScrutinizer05 runs screaming		05:52
beford	http://freewarewiki.com/f/msBob.jpg	05:52
DocScrutinizer05	second life for clerks	05:52
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DocScrutinizer05	btw, what became of 2nd life? Huge tsunami?	05:55
DocScrutinizer05	killer bats?	05:55
DocScrutinizer05	supernova?	05:55
ShadowJK	People said "no thanks, I'll stick with Windows 3.0", and it flopped so badly, it was pretty quickly withdrawn, and few people have heard of it	05:55
robbiethe1st	ShadowJK, what, MS BOB?	05:59
ShadowJK	yes	05:59
Macer	2nd life?	05:59
robbiethe1st	Wait, few people have heard of it?	05:59
ShadowJK	yeah it seems pretty unknown?	06:00
Macer	like... the thing where you walk around some world doing nothing?	06:00
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robbiethe1st	Macer, I thought you made money off of it by designing in-game items and selling them	06:02
Macer	like... real money?	06:02
DocScrutinizer05	Macer: yep, the thing with linton dollar	06:02
Macer	who buys shit like that?	06:02
robbiethe1st	Bored people	06:03
Macer	if it had a porn theme it would be a mega hit	06:03
robbiethe1st	hehe... Are you thinking it /doesn/t?	06:03
DocScrutinizer05	ooh it FOR SURE has	06:03
Macer	world of whackcraft	06:03
Macer	it does?	06:03
Macer	lol	06:03
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DocScrutinizer05	there already been trials in real world, trying to prosecute real porsons for doing prostittution and worse in SL	06:04
robbiethe1st	...I once ran into a tech support story(wrong number etc)... The user calling in had a bluetooth-enabled, SL-connected dildo.	06:04
DocScrutinizer05	persons*	06:04
DocScrutinizer05	exhibitionism in SL	06:04
DocScrutinizer05	jail in RL	06:05
DocScrutinizer05	;-P	06:05
DocScrutinizer05	but recently I heard nuttin about SL anymore.Thought it might have vanished in a supernova somebody injected to the main servers via some malware	06:07
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ShadowJK	people moved to twitter	06:12
ShadowJK	and facebook	06:12
drathir	lol http://allthingsd.com/20130902/microsoft-to-buy-nokias-device-business-for-7-17-billion-euros/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter	06:20
robbiethe1st	...Yup	06:22
robbiethe1st	Elop was a shill, and everyone knew it!	06:22
robbiethe1st	brought in to give MS a phone company, and kill a major competetor(Maemo & symbian) who could have threatened things.	06:23
robbiethe1st	Oh, and guess what, Mr. Elop might well get to take over MS, after gutting Nokia	06:23
robbiethe1st	I can only hope what's left of Nokia gets some balls back	06:24
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wmarone	fare thee well Nokia, exactly what I expected to happen has	06:29
DocScrutinizer05	MS-Nokia? old news, everybody expected err knew this when MrFlop started	06:29
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robbiethe1st	Yeah	06:32
DocScrutinizer05	MrFlop the new Uncle Fester though is really funny	06:33
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DocScrutinizer05	sounds like the mafia boss asking his worst most sadistic killer to now babysitting the boss' children	06:35
DocScrutinizer05	well, probably MS actually is the first and maybe one of only 10 companies worldwide that's really just too big to fail	06:37
robbiethe1st	Are they?	06:38
robbiethe1st	What would happen if MS went out of business?	06:38
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robbiethe1st	The rights to Windows would be sold off, someone else would take on supporting current versions	06:38
DocScrutinizer05	I'd think yes, they are. Otherwise they wouldn't exist anymore since years	06:38
robbiethe1st	Even if MS just disappeared, windows licences stopped being sold...	06:39
DocScrutinizer05	the question "what would happen if..." is basically meaningless, since they simply CANNOT go out of business	06:39
robbiethe1st	things would go on. There'd be a lot of porting of software; probably a massive econemy boom	06:40
robbiethe1st	Well, to be fair, they /do/ have enough money in the bank that if they stopped selling any new licenses, they'd not go out of business for years	06:40
robbiethe1st	they could be losing money slowly for decades and still be OK	06:41
DocScrutinizer05	exactly	06:41
robbiethe1st	That being said, I do think that if they aren't careful, this NSA stuff will quickly render them obsolete anywhere but the US	06:42
DocScrutinizer05	and even form a market perspective they can't go out of business, just like exxon or BP can't stop producing oil	06:42
DocScrutinizer05	NSA? LOL! in 12 months MS comes up with WinSecure, now absolutely safe	06:43
DocScrutinizer05	and they will earn even more money	06:44
DocScrutinizer05	I rather guess NSA will get bought by MS. That's called outsourcing	06:45
robbiethe1st	Yeah. And will any government outside the US(and perhaps UK) trust them?	06:46
DocScrutinizer05	NSA fires 99% of their employees, and MS does all the jobs of NSA	06:46
DocScrutinizer05	sure, since they are not the NSA, they are "the good ones"	06:46
robbiethe1st	I sure hope not	06:47
DocScrutinizer05	and the heck, prolly they are. After all they won't be that much intrested in spying any other industries except their direct competitors	06:47
robbiethe1st	The NSA, however, will be interested in spying on everything	06:48
robbiethe1st	and so, they will have orders to find such things	06:48
DocScrutinizer05	nonono, you don't get it. NSA gets bashed by US public, and the US residents rather trust in MS than in NSA. They don't like thaat spying either	06:49
robbiethe1st	Well, US residents, I don't hold much stock in them knowing much of anything	06:49
robbiethe1st	I'm thinking everyone outside	06:49
DocScrutinizer05	sure	06:49
robbiethe1st	EU -- whom we've been spying on	06:50
robbiethe1st	China, russia, who really don't want to be spied on	06:50
DocScrutinizer05	but don't hope on NSA and prism/tempora having any negative impact on MS business. Rather the opposite, if any	06:50
robbiethe1st	It might help in the US, but I'm thinking their global numbers will fall	06:51
DocScrutinizer05	hardly noticeable.	06:51
DocScrutinizer05	what might kill their international business is win8 crap	06:51
robbiethe1st	And, I'm still waiting to see what happens with XP	06:52
robbiethe1st	Considering 35% marketshare, still	06:52
robbiethe1st	We're still running XP in various places at work, no plans to upgrade	06:52
DocScrutinizer05	when really the last noob shouts in the coputer shop "WHATS THAT? I don't want that please give me some alternative"	06:53
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-09-03 04:43:07] <DocScrutinizer05> Industry is still on winXP, since everything since been useless for professional use, even at industry level (I consider industry requirements rather undemanding here)	06:53
robbiethe1st	Well, here, it's half Win 7, half XP	06:54
robbiethe1st	...Though, while Win 7 is generally nice and up-to-par with Debian KDE, I do get frustrated with it some times	06:54
DocScrutinizer05	at my last 2 companies it been 99% XP, and 70% XP	06:54
robbiethe1st	I open my 'downloads' folder, and it takes like 20s just to display the contents.	06:54
robbiethe1st	I've opened much larger folders on my various Debian installs, and it doesn't take more than 1s, if that!	06:55
DocScrutinizer05	the 99% XP company struggled hard to find a way to migrate all their tools and stuff to FOSS	06:56
DocScrutinizer05	and they had a lot of tools and proprietary apps to port to a new OS. That's probably why	06:57
DocScrutinizer05	if you already have to port all that cruft to a new OS, then pretty please an OS where you got full control over updates and lifespan	06:58
DocScrutinizer05	any win-only apps? so what, we got VMware	06:58
robbiethe1st	Yeah	06:59
DocScrutinizer05	and Lauterbach will notice eventually, and offer a linux version of their tools	06:59
DocScrutinizer05	as will all those ITIL-system companies	07:00
DocScrutinizer05	hah, lauterbach. Haven't checked for a year what they're doing	07:00
robbiethe1st	when Autodesk and Catia offer a Linux version	07:01
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, now it's official: MS buys Nokia core business for 5.4 billion USD	07:01
DocScrutinizer05	today I'll actually watch NBC news	07:02
DocScrutinizer05	particularly the NYSE	07:02
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DocScrutinizer05	farewell Nokia	07:03
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DocScrutinizer05	lol call me a fool - I just registered ##maemo	07:07
DocScrutinizer05	just in case you wonder what's "lauterbach": http://www.lauterbach.com/frames.html?country=de%3fhome_d.html	07:11
DocScrutinizer05	http://www.lauterbach.com/frames.html?country=de%3fhome_d.html	07:14
DocScrutinizer05	meh, of course they already have linux support	07:15
DocScrutinizer05	Qt and Motif	07:16
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jpinx	Hello msn-nokia :s	07:30
DocScrutinizer05	ooops, EUR, not USD	07:32
DocScrutinizer05	well 5.4 billion EUR or USD, not much of a difference	07:33
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders if we will again be able to buy NOKIA rubberboots finally		07:34
jpinx	waders maybe :)	07:34
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, probably Nokia will again be really big business in 30 years, with all that global warming ;-)	07:35
DocScrutinizer05	ruberboats, boots, waders, tents, waterbags... I see a bright future for Nokia	07:36
jpinx	;)	07:37
jpinx	DocScrutinizer05: how many n900's do you have now ? ;)	07:43
jpinx	they'll have antique value soon :)	07:43
DocScrutinizer05	well, not enough. But honestly, the today's hot news won't have any impact on that.	07:44
Macer	today's hot news?	07:44
Macer	n900s cure cancer?	07:45
DocScrutinizer05	farewel Nokia	07:45
Macer	heh	07:45
Macer	farewell nokia?	07:45
Macer	did i miss something?	07:45
DocScrutinizer05	bought by MS	07:45
Macer	oh	07:45
DocScrutinizer05	5.5E9 EUR	07:45
Macer	kinda saw that coming didnt we? ;)	07:45
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DocScrutinizer05	sure	07:45
beford	http://press.nokia.com/2013/09/03/nokia-to-sell-devices-services-business-to-microsoft-in-eur-5-44-billion-all-cash-transaction/	07:45
Macer	wow thats it?	07:46
Macer	cheap buy for ms :)	07:46
Macer	what is a € worth us nowadays?	07:46
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Macer	$2.50?	07:46
DocScrutinizer05	nah	07:46
DocScrutinizer05	1.20?	07:46
Macer	wow fell that low?	07:47
Macer	nice	07:47
Macer	well... maybe ms is going to make nokia their iphone ;)	07:47
DocScrutinizer05	maybe 1.40, I honestly don't know	07:47
Macer	win8 phones arent too bad	07:47
Macer	lumia 1020 is a beast	07:47
Macer	then again tho.. google bought motorola and havent done anything with it	07:48
Macer	probably just to pocket patents	07:48
jpinx	sony have arguably the best phones atm	07:48
jpinx	but that's a moving finishing line	07:48
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Macer	sony?	07:49
Macer	i cant say i see too many sony phones out and about tbh. not here at least	07:49
DocScrutinizer05	doesn't mean they are crap	07:50
Macer	i didnt say they were	07:50
Macer	just saying	07:50
Macer	it is rare to see one	07:50
jpinx	Sony Xperia Z Ultra 6.4" phablet	07:50
DocScrutinizer05	well, you get xperias in evry shop here	07:51
jpinx	very cool big phone	07:51
Macer	if i take a route tho i think i will be going the ms route next	07:51
Macer	is that the sony answer to a note?	07:51
jpinx	depends on whether the not was a question :p	07:51
Macer	if my n900 ever dies. heh. i still have a brand new e7 on standby too	07:51
Macer	haha	07:52
jpinx	Macer: and take a look at samsung mega 6.3"	07:52
Macer	looks like 3 types of phones from here on out	07:52
Macer	ad-droid, windows, and ios	07:52
* jpinx will go for a phablet next		07:53
Macer	maybe ms will use symbian code to create true multitasking	07:53
Macer	:)	07:53
Macer	i can noly imagine a windows phone with a symbian base on today's hardware	07:53
Macer	using a windows ui	07:53
jpinx	what about the ubuntu phone ?	07:53
Macer	that would be insanely good heh	07:53
Macer	ubuntu fell short 19M :-P	07:54
* jpinx is not writing them off just because of money		07:54
Macer	i would	07:54
Macer	unless they got something out from a major manufacturer	07:54
Macer	unity is an ugly interface tho	07:54
jpinx	they have a good chance and the market is begging for anopen source phone	07:55
beford	on the phone it seems to be more usable than on a laptop though	07:55
Macer	yah	07:56
Macer	werent they going to use wayland too?	07:56
Macer	like. no more xorg?	07:56
Macer	im sure that may improve performance. but realistically the ubuntu phone is far from reality	07:57
Macer	ms is actually starting to shape up to take a good position in the market	07:57
jpinx	Macer is a negative thinker ?	07:57
beford	Mir, no wayland and no X	07:57
Macer	jpinx: no. i am a realist ;)	07:57
beford	they'll use Mir on desktop too, I think the next release will include it	07:57
Macer	wow	07:58
jpinx	Macer: reality is relative . it's a question of perception :)	08:00
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DocScrutinizer05	good! one linux distro less I have to service on any of my friends' computers. If they want me to service their junk, they better stay away from buntkuh with mir.	08:04
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Sc0rpius	hmm	08:12
Sc0rpius	Microsoft buys Nokia's devices & services so what's left ?	08:12
jpinx	welly boots :)	08:14
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Sc0rpius	I don't see the difference between "Microsoft buys Nokia's devices & services" and "Microsoft buys Nokia and bye bye for good"	08:15
jpinx	don't forget the wellies :)	08:16
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jpinx	MS didn't buy them :)	08:16
Sc0rpius	hehe	08:17
Kaadlajk	what is left still has revenue of over 15billion so there is something left :P	08:18
Sc0rpius	what Nokia has besides "devices & services" ?	08:19
Sc0rpius	the building and employees? so that's left, they are not part of the deal	08:20
frals	networks is a separate org from devices and services, at least	08:21
jpinx	about 32,000 Nokia employees will transfer to Microsoft	08:22
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jpinx	the deal will be finalised in early 2014	08:22
jpinx	subject to approval by Nokia shareholders and regulators	08:23
beford	nokia will keep the HERE map bussiness, microsoft just paid to use it in the phones	08:23
Sc0rpius	the whole board of directors of Nokia will accept the deal, they have to	08:24
Sc0rpius	are you sure of that beford?	08:24
Sc0rpius	that looks like it is part of the "services" deal	08:24
beford	that's how I read it, not sure	08:25
jpinx	Sc0rpius: yep - the patents and mapping ae going to be good earners for what is left of Nokia	08:25
jpinx	Nokia will also license its patents and mapping services to Microsoft	08:25
jpinx	not "sell"	08:26
Sc0rpius	and who uses Nokia maps anyway...	08:26
Sc0rpius	I thought everybody used Google maps for navigation in their phoens	08:26
Sc0rpius	phones	08:26
jpinx	MS will :)	08:26
jpinx	MS will be glad of a way to cut googlemaps out	08:26
Sc0rpius	at least Elop is stepping down for what's left of Nokia	08:28
Sc0rpius	that's like a tiny bit of light in all these darkness hehe :)	08:29
Sc0rpius	this was all a dirty plot	08:29
Sc0rpius	Elop will go back to Microsoft after the acquisition closes	08:29
Sc0rpius	this was all a plot from the very beginning Elop came to Nokia	08:29
jpinx	Sc0rpius: everyone has seen this coming for a year or so now	08:30
Sc0rpius	not me!	08:31
jpinx	ever since Elop was appointed ;)	08:31
ruskie	well nokia it was nice knowing you	08:36
Sc0rpius	heh	08:36
Wulfe	as a maemo 4 user this all means absolutely nothing to me, Nokia died several years ago for us.	08:40
* jpinx has a spare working n900 for sale :)		08:41
Wulfe	how much?	08:41
ruskie	I'm still happy with mine knock on wood	08:42
ruskie	and my backups include sailfish, firefoxos and tizien(or whatever you spell it like)	08:42
jpinx	Wulfe: $150 US ?	08:43
Wulfe	meh, i am good. i have found them for a bit cheaper.	08:43
Wulfe	but decent price all the same	08:43
jpinx	yea and postage from here would make it more	08:44
jpinx	Wulfe: make me an offer ;)	08:45
Wulfe	yeah S&H really gets ya	08:45
Wulfe	unless you can beat $110 free S&H i wont be interested.	08:45
jpinx	where are you ?	08:45
Wulfe	place i am looking at has a very limited supply so i may jump on it.	08:45
Wulfe	midwest usa	08:46
jpinx	gimmie a city I can google S&H to ;)	08:46
Wulfe	kansas city, mo	08:46
jpinx	ok	08:47
jpinx	what's the favourite S&H people there ? DHL or who ?	08:47
Wulfe	dont rely on me as a buyer though only reason i have not bought one yet is i am waiting to sell off a tablet for the money first	08:47
Wulfe	UPS or USPS	08:48
jpinx	Wulfe: what tablet you selling ?	08:48
jpinx	Wulfe: pm me ;)	08:48
Wulfe	deal streak 7 with modified charging port	08:48
Wulfe	i removed the propriatary 30 pin for a mini usb one	08:48
Wulfe	dell*	08:48
jpinx	never heard of dell streak 7 -- googlng nw	08:49
Wulfe	main reason i am looking to get a n900 is for developing on it	08:49
Wulfe	its an okay tablet but it has its downsides	08:50
Wulfe	mainly being a dell	08:50
Wulfe	dell is like the apple of pc's.....	08:50
Wulfe	so damn propriatary with everything they do	08:50
jpinx	what OS	08:51
Wulfe	android 3.2	08:51
jpinx	possible to upgrade ?	08:51
Wulfe	yeah XDA has custom roms to take it to jellybean	08:51
jpinx	Wulfe: ok - no sale :) I can buy new tablets with jellybean for $100 here and not have to put up with Dell's oddities (non-removeable battery - wtf is that?)	09:00
Wulfe	i completely understand lol	09:01
Wulfe	although the battery can be changed out you just have to open the thing up.	09:01
Wulfe	but yeah dell blows	09:01
Wulfe	no biggie though i am sure someone on craigslist will want one	09:02
jpinx	Samsung Mega 6.3" here is about $75	09:02
Wulfe	christmas coming up and all	09:02
Wulfe	yeah samsung makes a decent tablet	09:02
Wulfe	good price to	09:03
jpinx	:)	09:04
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Apic	DocScrutinizer05: Yes, 1983 in Christian Date	09:22
DocScrutinizer05	Apic: I just think it's extremely funny that ddate binary is bart of core tools and thus on every linux ;-D	09:24
DocScrutinizer05	part*	09:24
Apic	Yes, thanks to Slackware, the very first Distro, and the Church of the Subgenius. Praise Bob!	09:24
DocScrutinizer05	love it :-)	09:25
* Apic 2		09:25
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doc\|mobile	who didn't see this coming: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/03/microsoft-buys-nokia-handset/2756653/ ?	09:28
Gh0sty	nobody ever did :P	09:29
Gh0sty	it was not a question of 'if' but rather 'when'	09:29
doc\|mobile	exactly	09:30
doc\|mobile	he was always seen as a trojan	09:30
doc\|mobile	horse	09:30
doc\|mobile	heh	09:30
doc\|mobile	seems he did the same thing with Macromedia, joined as ceo three months before they were bought by Adobe	09:40
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XATRIX	Hi, i still need help to solve some dependency issue	10:04
XATRIX	HAM + CSSU package update	10:05
XATRIX	where can i get HAM logs ?	10:05
XATRIX	Does it write some file ?	10:05
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XATRIX	DocScrutinizer05: hi	10:07
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jaska	heh	10:24
jaska	i knew this the day they announced elop	10:24
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doc\|mobile	yeah	10:25
Apic	B-(	10:25
doc\|mobile	so many deals with microsoft ends up with the other party getting screwed	10:25
doc\|mobile	I wonder if this will get any regulatory bodies interested	10:26
Veggen	For Microsoft, I think it's too late actually.	10:27
doc\|mobile	hmm?	10:27
Veggen	...though they have been very good at turning around in earlier days. Not so the last 10+ years.	10:27
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doc\|mobile	I dunno, look at the xbox	10:28
doc\|mobile	and Ballmer on his way out may help	10:28
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Wizzup	Embrace, Extend, Extinguish	10:55
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ruskie	apparently Elop is now a favorite as the monkeys replacement	11:20
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Wizzup	developers!	11:23
ruskie	but yeah interested if any of the regulators will stick their nose in this as well	11:24
jaska	embrace, extend, extinguish, elop	11:25
Wizzup	jaska: LOL	11:25
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jon_y	So Microsoft-Nokia is now reality :)	12:07
fizzie	And Finnish news sites have amusing front pages as a result. It's all Nokia this and Nokia that as far as the eye can see.	12:09
Macer	well. there arent a lot of things in finland to talk about is there?	12:12
Macer	at least in the US we murder each other all day long	12:12
jon_y	150 years of Nokia undone in 3 years	12:15
jon_y	good job guys	12:15
jon_y	so are they releasing th N950 owners from their obligation now?	12:16
LauRoman	this is the kind of thing that will eventually happen to all shareheld companies sooner or later, if they are not part of a state sponsored industrial complex	12:18
FIQ	MS buys Nokia	12:18
* FIQ saw this coming 2 years ago already		12:19
jon_y	so now, there are basically 2 choices for consumer phones, Samsung and Apple	12:20
jon_y	they both look the same that I can't tell them apart	12:21
LauRoman	the difference is that one is made in china and the other is made in korea and chine, one has samsung chips and screens, the other has samsung screens and chips	12:23
FIQ	haha	12:25
FIQ	the only thing that actually matter is your OS of choice	12:25
FIQ	and then you choose device based on that	12:25
FIQ	[11:18:22] <LauRoman> this is the kind of thing that will eventually happen to all shareheld companies sooner or later, if they are not part of a state sponsored industrial complex	12:26
FIQ	yes but usually it dies slowly or gets obsoleted by something else	12:26
FIQ	nokia basically went suicidal	12:26
LauRoman	for a second time FIQ	12:27
FIQ	LauRoman: ?	12:28
LauRoman	fiq first is when they signed the WP deal	12:28
LauRoman	exclusivity	12:28
FIQ	oh I counted this all as a single action	12:28
FIQ	as it was bound to be absorbed by MS the moment elop ruined nokia back in feb 2011	12:29
LauRoman	nokia shareholders wanted money now and promises of more coming later, that's what they got from MS, and what they got from google was zero money now and aassurances of money later, they just chose "money now"	12:30
jon_y	how much are all the shares worth?	12:31
jon_y	MS has 86 billion in the bank iirc	12:31
jon_y	if this bites MS hard, so much the better :)	12:31
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142	12:32
LauRoman	8 bil is nothing compared to the motorola deal or the verizon vodafone one	12:32
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discopig	hi	12:38
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jonwil	I wonder what the merger laws are in Finland and whether there is a government agency that will need to give blessing to the Nokia-MS deal in the way it is here in Australia	12:56
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edheldil	Good job, Elop, mission accomplished :/	13:00
Veggen	jonwil: very likely.	13:00
Veggen	however, since Google and Android are the two largest player, and MS share will not be that large at all, I doubt anyone will deny this.	13:01
Veggen	eh, Google and Apple, I meant.	13:02
LauRoman	jonwil, there is no merger, one company is selling a divison to another company. Theoretically it should only be regulated if MS already had a hardware division (or a homonym to whatever other part is included in the deal) in Finland, or if the State held a big enough stake in Nokia that allwoed it to make some decisions based on how many shares it had or if there was an aditional agreement	13:07
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LauRoman	since navteq and many other divisons are not being sold, thre shouldn't be regulation backlash	13:08
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LauRoman	the only thing i fear is that the Lumia division could end up a writeoff in 3-4-5 years	13:10
jonwil	if Microsoft buying the Nokia phone division hurts Microsoft, that's a good thing (I have no great love for Microsoft)	13:17
divVerent	LauRoman: and why is that bad? :)	13:19
LauRoman	divVerent, people being layed off because of corporate machinations is what will be attached to that writeoff	13:20
jonwil	About the only things I use from Microsoft are Windows (because only Windows can run things I want/need to run like games) and Visual Studio (because I write code that will only be usable in Visual C++ due to ABI issues)	13:20
divVerent	well... and where is the difference? Lumia wasn't exactly a success	13:20
divVerent	Nokia was struggling anyway, I don't really think it gets WORSE from this for the employees	13:21
divVerent	maybe not better either, though	13:21
divVerent	jonwil: have to admit MSVS is the best IDE there is... if only it had decent compilers :)	13:21
jonwil	What would you consider a better compiler than MS?	13:21
divVerent	ANY other compiler	13:22
divVerent	e.g. for starters, a C compiler that doesn't STILL ignore C99	13:22
jonwil	The new Visual C++ 2013 compiler supports quite a few parts of C99	13:22
divVerent	does it FINALLY allow variables inside blocks? :P	13:22
divVerent	also, a compiler that comes with a runtime that doesn't warn because code is portable and not Microsoft vendor-lock-in code	13:23
divVerent	e.g. fopen() is forbidden apparently, need to use the MUCH MORE SECURE fopen_s(). Why is it more secure? Because it DETECTS WHEN YOU PASS NULL AS FILENAME.	13:23
divVerent	I wouldn't complain if it were actually more secure, but SOME of the functions in the _s set are just ridiculous	13:25
jon_y	divVerent: those are C++ template tricks	13:25
jon_y	I know because I worked on adding those _s to mingw-w64	13:26
jonwil	You can turn off all those warnings	13:26
jonwil	I do it all the time my in C++ code	13:26
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jon_y	it really needs to be automated, added half of it in only	13:26
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divVerent	jon_y: SOME are	13:26
divVerent	fopen_s is not	13:26
divVerent	many of these actually do some sizeof() tricks to find array sizes, and add a compile time check for buffer overflows	13:27
divVerent	kinda like _FORTIFY_SOURCE does in gcc/glibc	13:27
jon_y	actually, gcc already has non_null attribute that warns on possible null	13:27
jon_y	gcc still best for C99 and the proposed C11	13:28
divVerent	and via fortify (also some nasty template and macro tricks) it adds an extra function arg of the array size if you pass an array buffer	13:28
jon_y	yup, I know those	13:28
divVerent	if it cannot detect an overrun at compile time already	13:28
divVerent	just, MS insisted on breaking a standard just so they can lock-in	13:28
jon_y	it directs unsafe to "safe"	13:28
divVerent	while glibc managed to do it ALMOST without issues without any compatibility breakage	13:28
jon_y	also, RT apparently has nothing to do with security	13:29
divVerent	but anyway	13:29
jon_y	according to the VLC guys	13:29
divVerent	so MS finally has a major part of C99 done? Nice.	13:29
divVerent	Took them only... 15 years	13:29
jon_y	it does?	13:29
divVerent	so I know when they will have C++11 done	13:29
jon_y	I thought it does stdint.h only?	13:29
divVerent	oh, still?	13:29
divVerent	was just told they added more :P	13:29
jonwil	Visual C++ 2013 does implement a bunch of the C99 libs	13:29
jon_y	afaik, it is just stdint.h	13:30
divVerent	does it also add the C99 syntax enhancements?	13:30
jon_y	jonwil: what libs?	13:30
divVerent	like being allowed to declare variables in the middle of a block?	13:30
divVerent	(yes, that enhancement C++ had from the start)	13:30
jon_y	I remember my C lecturer keeps insisting that you CANNOT DECLARE variables in the middle of the block	13:30
jon_y	then again I've been using gnu89 since forever	13:30
divVerent	regarding C11, that is mostly pointless... it adds very little. But also is very easy to implement then.	13:31
jonwil	it adds complex.h, stdbool.h, fenv.h and inttypes.h	13:31
divVerent	I mainly like that there is finally a standard way for thread local variables	13:31
jon_y	that is the whole point of C :)	13:31
jonwil	along with new functions in math.h, ctype.h, wctype.h, stdio.h, stdlib.h and wchar.h	13:31
jon_y	does ms finally have long double?	13:31
divVerent	oh, and gets() FINALLY gone :P	13:31
divVerent	in C11	13:31
divVerent	jon_y: huh, it did not?	13:31
divVerent	fun fact about long double: it'll soon be gone from the CPUs	13:32
jonwil	Visual C++ current version does not have that	13:32
divVerent	AMD and Intel decided to get rid of it	13:32
jon_y	no, it did not, sizeof(double) == sizeof(long double)	13:32
divVerent	of the 80bit float type	13:32
jonwil	The new one that has been released as a beta has this new header support	13:32
divVerent	because SSE doesn't support it	13:32
jon_y	mingw* had mingwex extensions to do 80bit float	13:32
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divVerent	yes, via x87 FPU instructions	13:32
divVerent	which are deprecated and announced to break "soonish"	13:32
divVerent	so that OS kernels will have to SW emulate 80bit floating point	13:32
bennypr0fane	is it normal that I can't edit the settings for maemo.org repo in HAM?	13:33
jon_y	ehm I don't think SW is going to break	13:33
jonwil	ok, found the URL from the MS blog with the details of C99 support in Visual C++ 2013	13:33
divVerent	jon_y: not break per se	13:33
jonwil	http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2013/07/19/c99-library-support-in-visual-studio-2013.aspx	13:33
divVerent	OS kernels will have to implement "assists" for it	13:33
divVerent	basically, emulate them	13:33
jon_y	well, Intel isn't going to break CPU support that is	13:33
divVerent	they will raise illegal instruction, then the kernel steps in and the application won't notice	13:33
divVerent	is how they want it to be	13:33
jon_y	yes, I know about trapping errors	13:33
divVerent	just... a precondition for that is breaking support for old OSes :P	13:34
divVerent	like DOS	13:34
jon_y	normally, MSVC long double functions are exactly the same as double	13:34
divVerent	so I would suppose a CPU that will do this will also be UEFI-only	13:34
divVerent	while at it, let's kill real mode plz?	13:34
jon_y	so mingw* has a different ABI than msvc with floating points	13:34
jonwil	Does GCC support static thread-local-storage on Windows (i.e. __declspec(thread) or whatever GCC has decided to call it)	13:34
jon_y	divVerent: it will only execute signed code :)	13:34
jon_y	yes it does	13:35
jon_y	__thread	13:35
jon_y	__thread int aaa;	13:35
jonwil	ok, great, I remember many years ago I got a copyright assignment for GCC expressly with the intent of trying to add that support	13:35
divVerent	yes	13:35
divVerent	BTW, I only recently had to use long double in new code	13:35
divVerent	I wanted to do some float math on 64bit integers	13:35
divVerent	they JUST fit into 80bit long doubles	13:35
jon_y	it relies on libgcc and windows tls slots	13:35
divVerent	but, that code won't complain if it were to be SW emulated	13:35
jon_y	on MSVC, long double is just double	13:36
jon_y	really just 64bit afaik	13:36
divVerent	fun, C11 allows conforming implementatiosn to have no variable length arrays? interesting	13:36
jon_y	that would be MSVC	13:36
divVerent	does this also imply no alloca()?	13:37
divVerent	as otherwise it's pointless to do that	13:37
jon_y	probably	13:37
jon_y	if you want C, use gcc :)	13:37
divVerent	admittedly, a C++ compiler can emulate alloca() by other means :P	13:37
jon_y	oh no, new[]	13:37
divVerent	i.e. on the heap, and with an automatic destructor	13:37
jon_y	auto_ptr?	13:38
divVerent	i.e. turn char *a = alloca(1234) into unique_ptr<char> a = new char[1234]	13:38
divVerent	basically, yes	13:38
jon_y	yeah, C++ is still looks pretty scary to me	13:38
jon_y	implementation sucks	13:39
divVerent	one other thing I really don't get in C11	13:39
divVerent	is quick_exit()	13:39
divVerent	do we really need a third exit path?	13:39
jon_y	hmm, what does it do?	13:39
divVerent	like exit() but with a second atexit() function chain	13:39
bennypr0fane	freemangordon, is it normal that I can't edit the settings for maemo.org repo in HAM?	13:39
divVerent	so it doesn't run the regular atexits, but a normally shorter chain of at_quick_exit functions	13:39
jon_y	probably added by some embedded manufacturer	13:40
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jon_y	there is also the C11 decimal floating point fun	13:40
jon_y	decoding 128bit decimals is fun	13:40
jon_y	*binaries	13:41
jon_y	I burnt out a bit after writing the decoder for printf*	13:41
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jon_y	%x was the hardest, 3bits at a time, really!?	13:42
jon_y	I don't even get how float %A even works	13:43
DocScrutinizer05	bennypr0fane: yes	13:45
LjL-Alps	is it normal for the N900's bundled headphones to sound wrong when connected to other stuff (stuff that doesn't use the microphone contacts at least)? and strangely, it sounds right again if i keep the headphones' button pressed	13:45
jonwil	Hmmm, it sounds like the TLS support is not done the way Visual C++ does it	13:47
jon_y	how does tls do it?	13:47
jonwil	Visual C++ does it using the TLS directory in the PE file	13:47
jon_y	using .tls section yes?	13:47
jonwil	and a field in the TEB	13:47
jonwil	oh ok so it does do it the same way as Visual C++ then?	13:47
jon_y	ah ok, mingw* does it too	13:47
jon_y	except just using it for ctor/dtor to run libgcc TlsAlloc	13:48
jonwil	what does it need from libgcc then?	13:48
DocScrutinizer05	could soembody help me out with the printing on the SoC of OMAP3630 !GB RAM boards?	13:48
DocScrutinizer05	1GB even	13:48
jonwil	hmmm ok	13:48
jon_y	libgcc will be responsible for the actual initialization, mingw* just provides the ctor/dtor to do it	13:48
jon_y	I mean, all that code was already in libgcc, no sense to rewrite it	13:49
jonwil	The way I was trying to do it way back when was to basically copy what Visual C++ does and store each thread local variable in the .tls segment and access each variable via TEB->0x2C	13:50
jonwil	Where I got stuck was finding a way to make GCC output the correct ASM (which uses the FS or GS segment IIRC)	13:51
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bennypr0fane	oh, goody! I installed kernel-power 52, no I'm unable to boot! looks like another reflash is in order... so close...	13:53
divVerent	BTW	13:53
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divVerent	is there a "trick" to make a ThinkPad/Nexus4/iPhone headphone set work with the N900?	13:53
divVerent	by default, it sounds AWFUL because apparently it confuses mic/gnd pins and puts voltage on the gnd, which even changes a lot (about 10hz tone)	13:53
bennypr0fane	divVerent, you mean a wired one?	13:53
divVerent	yes	13:53
divVerent	I want only the headphone part to work...	13:54
divVerent	so is there a way to turn off mic voltage feed (which I suppose is the cause)?	13:54
divVerent	other than by using duct tape :P that actually MIGHT work	13:54
bennypr0fane	afaik wired headsets can't remote control N900, but I've never heard about the headphone function being off	13:55
bennypr0fane	I only ever use bluetooth ones with n900	13:55
jonwil	I do note though that MingW still doesn't support SEH (as implemented by the kernel on Win32) without extra patches or libs	13:55
divVerent	I only want to hear audio :)	13:55
jonwil	Or has that changed too anyway? :)	13:55
divVerent	jonwil: SEH isn't :P	13:55
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divVerent	or rather, never understood what is "structured" in it	13:56
LjL-Alps	divVerent: did you see my question above? it looks like the complement of what you asked	13:56
bennypr0fane	divVerent, what is gnd?	13:56
divVerent	bennypr0fane: trying to figure out	13:56
divVerent	which pin is SUPPOSED to be ground, and which IS, on these headphones vs n900	13:57
divVerent	because I suspect the issue is that there are two ways to assign Ground and Mic to the pins :P	13:57
divVerent	so if I can make the N900 ground the Mic pin, it should work	13:57
bennypr0fane	so you guys say, n900 has the pins set up, so only headphones with the same confusion can work right with it? :-D	13:57
bennypr0fane	*n900 has the pins set up wrong	13:58
bennypr0fane	aha, "gnd" stands for ground	13:58
divVerent	ah, yes	13:58
divVerent	N900 has left right mic ground order	13:59
divVerent	US standard is left right ground mic	13:59
divVerent	N900 isn't "special" here, Nokia did use the same order on 2.5mm plugs for ages	13:59
divVerent	so basically I wonder if there is a software way to turn off the mic voltage	13:59
bennypr0fane	so is that like standard for europe, or just standard for Nokia?	14:00
jon_y	jonwil: SEH as in exceptions?	14:00
jon_y	or do you mean calling __try explicitly?	14:00
jon_y	as for the former, like C++ exceptions, is supported in 64bit	14:00
jon_y	as for 32bit, just waiting for patents to expire	14:01
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divVerent	bennypr0fane: I doubt a standard even existed before	14:02
gry	(for those who didn't notice: microsoft bought nokia, it seems, today.)	14:02
divVerent	HAHA, just MAYBE answered my own question	14:04
divVerent	alsamixer has a "jack function" item	14:05
divVerent	it was TV-Out when I plugged the headset in	14:05
divVerent	any other setting doesn't have that buzzing	14:05
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divVerent	don't know if it'll actually play though	14:07
jonwil	Yet another thing to add to the list of things being held back by software patents...	14:08
jonwil	(win32 SEH in GCC)	14:08
jon_y	it expires in 2014	14:08
jon_y	so, soon	14:08
divVerent	wait, really? Win95 had SEH?	14:11
divVerent	or did they patent it then not use it for ages?	14:11
jonwil	Microsoft doesn't hold the patent IIRC	14:11
jonwil	IIRC its Borland that does	14:12
jonwil	or whoever inherited it from the corpse of Borland	14:12
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jonwil	As a software developer I think software patents are stupid period for all sorts of reasons.	14:12
divVerent	"depends" but usually this is the case	14:13
divVerent	especially patents on file format reading just shouldn't exist, ever	14:13
joga	go NZ	14:13
bennypr0fane	gry MS didn't buy all of Nokia, just their "devices&services"	14:13
joga	I wonder if rubber boots are "devices" or not	14:14
jaska	wading device	14:14
jaska	but tires and such were spun off much earlier	14:14
gry	bennypr0fane: yes, that's what I meant. sorry for being vague. (that was the main part of it that I knew of.)	14:14
jonwil	The patents on things like MPEG or Elliptic Curve Cryptography are definatly one of the kinds of patents that really need to go away	14:14
bennypr0fane	divVerent, jonwil , SEH is this? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/swezty51%28v=vs.90%29.aspx	14:15
divVerent	jonwil: sort of, indeed	14:16
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jonwil	SEH in this case is this	14:16
divVerent	I understand that patents on encoding algorithms MIGHT be useful. Decompression of videos however MUST be free.	14:16
jonwil	http://www.microsoft.com/msj/0197/Exception/Exception.aspx	14:16
jon_y	jonwil: yes, borland patents	14:16
divVerent	But even if they are useful, 20 years is INSANE in this field.	14:16
jon_y	though they promised not to sue	14:16
bennypr0fane	divVerent, I'm interested in that "patents on file format reading" area. It seems to me that Linux (-applications) cannot read all the metadata of MS office files, specifically author, keywords,... the classic set also attached to all PDFs	14:18
bennypr0fane	you guys know anything about that?	14:19
bennypr0fane	I keep wonderin if that's anything to do with the closed file MS formats, or rather with the file systems	14:20
bennypr0fane	*closed MS file formats	14:20
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bennypr0fane	divVerent, I think the way patents are handled by the US jurisdiction is just generally insane overall	14:21
divVerent	bennypr0fane: no, that isn't a patent issue	14:21
divVerent	more of a lack of useful documentation issue	14:21
bennypr0fane	hmmm	14:21
divVerent	bennypr0fane: especially bad are "unavoidable patents" for supporting a file format	14:21
divVerent	e.g. S3TC	14:21
divVerent	I wonder if the final one of the S3TC patents is finally killed?	14:21
divVerent	three out of four were down'd by Apple	14:21
jonwil	Patents on file SYSTEMS are the lowest of the low and really need to go	14:22
jon_y	FAT is still patented	14:22
jon_y	MS trying to push exFAT	14:22
divVerent	you mean VFAT :P	14:22
jonwil	i.e. all the various FAT type patents Microsoft is so fond of using to kill their competitors	14:22
divVerent	original FAT is expired	14:22
divVerent	but the long file name extensions aren't	14:22
jon_y	well, exFAT going to go another 20 years	14:22
bennypr0fane	WUT? FAT is patented?	14:22
divVerent	yes	14:22
divVerent	FAT was, but is too old now	14:23
divVerent	only the Win95-introduced LFN extension still has SOME validity time left	14:23
jon_y	yeah, original DOS FAT is no longer under patent	14:23
jon_y	VFAT aka long file names is	14:23
jon_y	FAT32 also, probably	14:23
kerio	who the hell would want a patent for vfat	14:23
divVerent	no, FAT32 did not add anything vs FAT	14:23
divVerent	nothing to patent there	14:23
kerio	i'd be ashamed of it	14:23
divVerent	VFAT is the issue, though :P	14:23
divVerent	kerio: hehe	14:23
jonwil	It seems like Microsoft will continue to have device makers and memory card makers over a barrel because they will never support any filesystems on Windows that they dont own and control	14:24
jonwil	therefore device makers have to use the MS file systems (i.e. fat and now exfat)	14:24
jonwil	and pay MS the royalties	14:24
divVerent	jonwil: that's the idea	14:24
divVerent	the only ones who would have a chance to achieve something else is Apple...	14:24
divVerent	but then it's THEIR patented crap	14:24
kerio	not only that	14:24
kerio	apple sucks at file systems too	14:24
kerio	HFS+ is such a bad filesystem	14:25
bennypr0fane	how long have all you guys been in programming? I'm starting IT school right now, yesterday was my first day	14:25
divVerent	that too	14:25
divVerent	kerio: fun fact: you can make working .dmg files on Linux	14:25
divVerent	tool: mkisofs :P	14:25
jon_y	bennypr0fane: 4 years? :)	14:25
divVerent	OS X mounts ISOs perfectly fine if renamed to .dmg	14:25
divVerent	even WITHOUT the HFS extensions	14:25
bennypr0fane	I'm really excited	14:25
kerio	OS X mounts ISOs perfectly fine, period	14:25
kerio	the default action for .iso files is to mount them	14:25
divVerent	kerio: oh right... still .dmg is needed so the apple fanboys are happy	14:25
jon_y	bennypr0fane: make sure you learn C, don't give a crap about those hipsters that say C is outdated	14:25
jon_y	it is the very foundation to understand what is going on behind the JVM	14:26
divVerent	C is outdated, but so? Doesn't make it not useful.	14:26
bennypr0fane	jon_y you mean 4 years work, or 4 years ago you started your education?	14:26
kerio	jon_y: he's starting IT school, he's not going to learn how to program	14:26
divVerent	Exactly.	14:26
jon_y	4 years since I learned programming	14:26
divVerent	You won't write a whole web forum in C, for example :P	14:26
kerio	he'll probably learn how to program in spite of his IT school	14:26
divVerent	you COULD, but it'd be stupid	14:26
* bennypr0fane heard real men code in C :-D		14:26
kerio	divVerent: and by stupid, you mean AWESOME	14:26
divVerent	that too	14:26
jon_y	of course you won't do it in C, you get the basics in C	14:26
divVerent	but total waste of time	14:26
joga	first time I programmed some 23 years ago or something, but never really worked as a programmer (I'm concerned I would be too stressful for me) ;p	14:27
jon_y	and for goodness sake, read the linkers and loaders pdf too	14:27
divVerent	yes	14:27
divVerent	the knowledge is important	14:27
divVerent	of how stuff actually works	14:27
jon_y	understand wtf is going on when you run programs	14:27
jonwil	I am a programmer by profession although I have not been able to find a job in my area for a while	14:27
divVerent	or you e.g. use C++ then don't understand why something weird is happening	14:27
bennypr0fane	linkers and loaders pdf?	14:27
jon_y	it is free, find it on google	14:27
divVerent	like "why can't I just return a reference to a local variable?"	14:27
joga	it's good to know low-level stuff	14:28
jon_y	teach you about executable file formats	14:28
joga	if only to remind you there's something else under all that crap	14:28
bennypr0fane	jonwil, that is unusual, no?	14:28
jon_y	so far it covers linux a.out, elf, win32 PE, and DOS exe and COM	14:28
jon_y	oh, if you have the time, learn about CPU architecture design too	14:29
jon_y	know it when sales people are bullshitting you on hardware	14:29
bennypr0fane	It's always seemed to me (from the outside, so far) that low-level programming is the most highbrow studd to understand	14:29
jon_y	highbrow how?	14:29
jonwil	The problem I am finding is that all the people offering programming jobs in my area are asking for 2 or 3 or 5 years experience in technologies I dont really understand	14:29
bennypr0fane	*stuff	14:29
jon_y	jonwil: opensource doesn't count? :(	14:29
bennypr0fane	jonwil, which technologies?	14:30
bennypr0fane	is it this one? http://norfs.sourceforge.net/linkers_and_loaders.pdf	14:31
jonwil	Stuff like .NET C# SSIS CRM Oracle J2EE MVC ASP and some others I cant remember off the top of my head	14:31
jon_y	yes	14:31
jon_y	ew, J2ME	14:31
jon_y	*J2EE	14:31
jonwil	oh and Sharepoint too	14:31
divVerent	13:31:06 jonwil \| Stuff like .NET C# SSIS CRM Oracle J2EE MVC ASP and some	14:31
bennypr0fane	you can't code anything other than Windows programs in .NET, can you?	14:31
divVerent	hehe	14:31
jon_y	I worked on this Java codebase before, it was so enterprisy	14:31
divVerent	of these, I would probably not admit the J2EE part :P	14:31
jon_y	class inheriting classes	14:32
divVerent	I never list Java related stuff on my resume because I hate the Java runtime library	14:32
jon_y	base class did not have any prublic methods	14:32
divVerent	don't want to code Java all day\	14:32
jon_y	and using instanceof() in derived classes	14:32
jon_y	egads	14:32
jon_y	why do you even do that	14:32
divVerent	using instanceof explicitly?	14:32
jon_y	yes	14:32
divVerent	well, first... SOME uses are there	14:33
jon_y	this code should be on thedailywtf	14:33
divVerent	e.g. if you have a derived method taking another object	14:33
jon_y	divVerent: it was doing if-else instanceof	14:33
divVerent	you may want to know if the other object is of your derived class or if you only can assume the base class	14:33
divVerent	hehe	14:33
divVerent	instanceof of ANOTHER than your current class is weird	14:33
divVerent	but e.g. derived Equals methods tend to do check for the other object to be instanceof your own class	14:33
jon_y	if(instanceof) dothis else if(instanceof) dosomething .....	14:33
divVerent	I hope they didn't do this in the base class, even	14:34
jon_y	long long chains for each branch of the inheritance	14:34
jon_y	base class didn't have anything	14:34
divVerent	the base class containing an instanceof chain mention all subclasses...	14:34
jon_y	no public methods	14:34
divVerent	that would be DailyWTF worthy	14:34
bennypr0fane	In your opinion, what is the best channel to hang out in for getting help with newbie issues? And the kind of questions I asked above?	14:34
divVerent	more DailyWTF score if the subclasses are all empty	14:34
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jon_y	all this was just a tree structure implementation	14:34
divVerent	and all logic is done by instanceof in the base class :P	14:34
divVerent	this is almost as good as the for-case paradigm then :P	14:35
jon_y	also, it had add() but no remove() in the derived classes	14:35
divVerent	haha, really?	14:35
jon_y	yes	14:35
divVerent	well, remove() not defined in the parent then, I hope	14:35
jon_y	oh we're agile, we don't need it yet	14:35
jon_y	as I said, base class had nothing	14:35
divVerent	then it's actually SOMEWHAT ok...	14:35
divVerent	except for the base class has nothing part	14:35
divVerent	why have that class then	14:35
jon_y	just a child array of objects	14:36
jon_y	I asked the same thing	14:36
divVerent	that also means the abstract base class didn't implement an interface defining the methods, right?	14:36
jon_y	got no response other than because it was there already	14:36
bennypr0fane	not that I think you guys can't help me, but it's obviously more for experienced people in here :-) (besides the fact that we've been off topic for hours)	14:36
jon_y	it only had a private array of object called "child"	14:36
jon_y	or was it protected I can't remember	14:37
divVerent	jon_y: haha... maybe anonymize that in a few months and post to dailywtf?	14:37
jon_y	yeah, I don't even want to dig it up	14:37
jon_y	thankfully I don't work on it anymore	14:37
jon_y	the program was a monstermash of TCSH, BASH, Java, Perl and C	14:38
divVerent	speaking of dailywtf: recently sent this to them: view-source:http://www.led24.ch	14:38
divVerent	but probably won't make it to the frong page	14:38
jon_y	the program was converted from C++, so I heard	14:38
jon_y	but half way through they found out Java had no fork()	14:38
divVerent	they apparently wanted to make sure that the newline at the bottom of the HTML source is in Arial 20, and not in Times 24 like the rest	14:39
jon_y	nor did it have any PID/process management calls	14:39
divVerent	jon_y: haha, Java and fork()...	14:39
divVerent	reminds me of something :P Android-related...	14:39
divVerent	and OpenSSL-related	14:39
jon_y	you know what they did? :)	14:39
divVerent	it's public, the android openssl thing that led to bitcoins being stolen	14:39
jon_y	ran a process starter on itself and restarted itself again	14:40
divVerent	long story short: Android loads OpenSSL, then uses fork().	14:40
divVerent	And OpenSSL is not fork-safe	14:40
divVerent	as in, the random number generator state is just cloned too	14:40
divVerent	so all apps had the same RNG state	14:40
jon_y	well duh, static structures are cloned	14:40
divVerent	yes	14:40
divVerent	and the best part	14:40
jon_y	that would be the whole point of fork()	14:41
divVerent	this very same bug also hit PostgreSQL and Ruby	14:41
divVerent	yes, there was in all of them lack of special handling for invalidating the state on fork	14:41
divVerent	e.g. by adding more randomness from /dev/urandom	14:41
jon_y	>counting on urandom for anything serious	14:41
jon_y	what.	14:41
divVerent	that's kinda ok in this case	14:41
divVerent	it only matters that the mixed in state is different :P	14:41
divVerent	in this specific case, that is, not in general	14:42
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divVerent	even using the PID would be secure enough, assuming a cryptographically secure PRNG	14:42
divVerent	well... and what did OpenSSL do? It DID use the PID...	14:42
divVerent	however, PIDs can repeat, which is why exactly this does not suffice	14:42
divVerent	an ever increasing counter would have done then	14:42
divVerent	or using the PID at the right time	14:42
divVerent	e.g. mixing in the child process's PID when the parent forked	14:42
jon_y	oh, there is another wtf from the java program, well on the current maintainer anyway	14:43
divVerent	thing is, if a RNG is cryptographically secure, and you fork the state	14:43
divVerent	and one process mixes in 1, the other mixes in 0	14:43
jon_y	for-loops and parallelism, oh boy	14:43
divVerent	then an attacker still can't infer anything about the other process's RNG from its own one	14:43
jon_y	unlooping the for loops so each elements can be fed into a parallel scheduler is apparently bad	14:44
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divVerent	for-loops and parallelism, how is that a wtf?	14:44
divVerent	oh, wait... a tight for loop handld THAT way?	14:44
jon_y	because multithreaded code is hard to read and we need the UI to block to show the user it is doing something	14:44
jon_y	why!!!!?? you call yourself a phd and you say that!!!	14:44
divVerent	why not just #pragma omp for	14:44
jon_y	it is a java program	14:45
divVerent	I know	14:45
divVerent	just saying... one CAN do it right	14:45
jon_y	more like looping down a tree structure	14:45
divVerent	oh wait, parallel tree traversal?	14:45
divVerent	THAT sounds... insane	14:45
jon_y	unlooping involves flattening it first	14:45
divVerent	which is already a full tree traversal	14:45
jon_y	and the feeding all the elements into a job scheduler	14:45
jonwil	I wish more people would take security (including cryptography, SQL injection etc) more seriously	14:45
divVerent	jonwil: indeed	14:46
jon_y	that was my idea anyway	14:46
divVerent	but in this case, I have a hard time blaming anyone	14:46
divVerent	regarding OpenSSL vs fork	14:46
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jon_y	nope, lead developer insists on using for loops and recursive calls	14:46
divVerent	OpenSSL guys say they want portable code, no unixisms like doing something odd to catch fork use (and be it by pthread_atfork)	14:46
divVerent	and Android/Postgres/Ruby guys... well	14:46
divVerent	OpenSSL kinda HID the issue by mixing in the PID on each random call	14:47
jon_y	granted I'm not majoring in compsci, but guys, why you hate multithread so much?	14:47
divVerent	so they quickly tested, saw "ah, the state differed", and were happy	14:47
divVerent	jon_y: I don't hate it	14:47
divVerent	I hate ugly code from it	14:47
divVerent	but one can write it well too	14:47
jon_y	divVerent: I mean the lead developer	14:47
divVerent	I know	14:47
kerio	openssh abuses every cute little feature of openbsd, on the other hand	14:47
divVerent	he has once seen really bad threaded code	14:47
divVerent	and then hated threads in general	14:47
jon_y	how hard can flattening a tree structure be?	14:48
kerio	jon_y: what's wrong with urandom? :o	14:48
divVerent	JUST the flattening? Easy.	14:48
kerio	isn't it guaranteed to be crypto-secure?	14:48
divVerent	kerio: "sort of"	14:48
divVerent	it's still a PRNG	14:48
jon_y	kerio: urandom is not guaranteed to have enough randomness	14:48
divVerent	but I would still trust it over whatever some library provides - and be it OpenSSL	14:48
divVerent	jon_y: neither is any other PRNG	14:48
divVerent	like OpenSSL's	14:48
divVerent	P stands for pseudo after all	14:48
jon_y	random would block if there isn't enough randomness	14:49
divVerent	yes	14:49
divVerent	if you want that, do that	14:49
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jon_y	yeah	14:49
divVerent	in this specific case, I probably would rather have read 16 bytes of /dev/random on fork	14:49
jon_y	urandom is "give me something, I don't care how random it is"	14:49
divVerent	128 bits of extra entropy per process is probably enough	14:49
divVerent	and usually doesn't block	14:49
jon_y	even if it is not	14:49
kerio	jon_y: but it's crypto-secure!	14:49
kerio	:c	14:49
kerio	it says so	14:49
divVerent	urandom is about as crypto secure as OpenSSL's :P	14:50
divVerent	both shouldn't claim it	14:50
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jon_y	oh, btw, the java program calls a small C program that read timestamps etc	14:50
jon_y	the lead programmer said the java code did it too slowly	14:50
jon_y	really, you wonder why	14:51
jon_y	unfortunately, the C code was written by an intern that has long left	14:51
jon_y	using glib because he didn't know how to do malloc/free memory management	14:51
ccxCZ	what video formats/codecs are supported on maemo?	14:51
jon_y	nor know how to concaternate strings in C	14:52
Macer	ccxCZ: i think only h2xx is supported video hw decoding	14:52
Macer	but you can always install mplayer for everything albeit at the expense of cpu	14:52
ccxCZ	kthnx	14:53
jon_y	I have also seen sudo-exec wrappers that join argc together and pass it to system()	14:53
Macer	ccxCZ: there is a site about it	14:53
ccxCZ	so I guess avi for the container	14:53
Macer	uhm...	14:53
Macer	~video	14:53
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, video is interrupt 10h for the video BIOS	14:53
Macer	ok that's not it	14:53
Macer	https://wiki.maemo.org/Video_encoding	14:53
Macer	there it is	14:53
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ccxCZ	thanks	14:59
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divVerent	13:51:55 jon_y \| using glib because he didn't know how to do	15:29
divVerent	\| malloc/free memory management	15:29
divVerent	jon_y: wait	15:29
divVerent	glib doesn't solve this either	15:29
divVerent	so you SURE have a leak there :P	15:29
divVerent	13:53:22 jon_y \| I have also seen sudo-exec wrappers that join argc together and pass it to	15:30
divVerent	\| system()	15:30
divVerent	jon_y: ARGH... TOTALLY reminds me of an old project	15:30
divVerent	task: they are in PHP, and want to send a command to a serial port	15:30
divVerent	problem: they don't know that fopen() works on devices too, and can't access it from PHP anyway	15:31
divVerent	their solution: run apache process as root, and PHP code like this:	15:31
divVerent	open /tmp/temp via fopen	15:31
divVerent	write to it: "echo $stuff > /dev/ttyS1"	15:32
divVerent	system("chmod +x /tmp/temp")	15:32
divVerent	system("/tmp/temp")	15:32
divVerent	do I have to mention that $stuff also came from the user and was not sanitized...	15:32
divVerent	also, obviously there was nothing to prevent the obvious race condition(s)	15:33
divVerent	the only GOOD part: this stuff isn't connected to the internet, usually. Only to a home automation network.	15:33
divVerent	but it does beat the "internet cafe" I r00ted via netscape (to get rid of the restrictions and timer of free use)	15:34
divVerent	they had restrictions via a proxy setting in netscape... but there was ONE trick. ONE link on the mainpage opened in new window. That window had a menu bar, so I could turn off the proxy. Voila, free access.	15:34
divVerent	then used the window's address bar to look around... essentially associated *.sh with the shell in netscape settings, and used JavaScript:'some text' then File/save as to create scripts I could run	15:35
divVerent	the timer daemon ran as another user... not bad	15:35
divVerent	but as root... a bit worse	15:35
divVerent	but the kiosk user had kiosk ALL=(ALL) ALL in /etc/sudoers... THAT was bad	15:36
divVerent	so having found that, kill -STOP timerpid and the thing was free :P	15:36
divVerent	(with sudo)	15:36
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divVerent	oh, I forgot the NOPASSWD: part :P	15:37
jon_y	divVerent: oh now I remember	15:39
LjL-Alps	am i supposed to confirm somewhere (and if so, where) that the cssu-devel fix for SUPL works?	15:39
jon_y	wait, glib does do some momory management stuff	15:40
jon_y	a long with some utility code	15:40
freemangordon	LjL-Alps: oncssu-devel thread?	15:41
freemangordon	~cssu-devel	15:41
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, cssu-devel is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84292, or extremely deprecated for any non-developer	15:41
LjL-Alps	freemangordon: ok, i didn't know whether an influx of "me too" would be welcome there	15:42
jon_y	divVerent: well, I did not have your level of exploit :)	15:42
jon_y	most of this stuff was written by guys used to writing shell scripts	15:43
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jon_y	I'm tempted to give "script kiddie" another meaning	15:43
jon_y	alt meaning is "guys who write shell scripts, should not be trusted with anything compiled"	15:44
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freemangordon	LjL-Alps: hmm? wouldn't be wecomed by whom?	15:44
LjL-Alps	freemangordon: by TMO at large. anyway i guess maybe if i just say "it works" here in your presence, that'll be enough feedback? :P	15:45
freemangordon	the whole point of that thread is to report cssu-devel related stuff	15:45
LjL-Alps	fair enough	15:45
LjL-Alps	i'll try supl.google.com and then give it a post	15:45
freemangordon	no change for google supl	15:46
freemangordon	it still doesn;t work	15:46
LjL-Alps	ah, no change? some people on the thread said it started working too	15:46
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freemangordon	NFC, it has never stopped working for me :D	15:46
LjL-Alps	oh :P	15:46
freemangordon	but that might by just my MNO supl working, not google	15:47
LjL-Alps	your what, freemangordon?	15:47
freemangordon	mobile network operator	15:47
LjL-Alps	oh	15:47
LjL-Alps	i thought Maemo only used the one specified in the settings	15:47
freemangordon	no	15:48
freemangordon	it uses network supplied supl server too, if any	15:48
freemangordon	but first tries the one in the settings	15:48
LjL-Alps	i wonder if carriers charge for data usage (assuming you don't have a flat plan) when connecting to their own supl	15:49
freemangordon	nfc, i have data plan	15:50
LjL-Alps	me too, just idly wondering	15:50
freemangordon	I guess it is similar to MMS	15:51
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LjL-Alps	i wish i had brought a usb hub with me, or whatever would work to connect to the RTLSDR	16:14
LjL-Alps	except, i have!!!	16:16
LjL-Alps	host mode here i come	16:16
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LjL-Alps	yayayay it works	16:18
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divVerent	news about my trying to make an unsupported headset work via alsamixer:	16:22
divVerent	the mic just can't be used, as expected	16:22
divVerent	the headphones work, but the mic port can only be set to float, not ground	16:22
divVerent	by that alsamixer setting that decides what type of device is plugged in	16:22
divVerent	basically means no stere, but I hear difference of L and R	16:23
edheldil	LjL-Alps: do you use DVB-T dongle with it?	16:23
divVerent	still... not bad, works as "emergency headphones" that way	16:23
divVerent	BTW, hint to those who don't know: alsamixer -c 0 is the trick to get useful settings and not pulseaudio crap :P	16:24
LjL-Alps	edheldil: that's the idea, but so far i've only checked that the DVB-T dongle powers up, and that some MP3 player goes into mass storage mode. still not tried anything else	16:24
edheldil	ah, I thought you were interested in the RTLSDR part :)	16:26
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LjL-Alps	edheldil: i am	16:29
LjL-Alps	edheldil: i'm just saying, so far i didn't get RTLSDR working. only hostmode. but that's a start1	16:29
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LjL-Alps	especially since i didn't think i had a cable that could do USB-OTG	16:29
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Sicelo	ugh..	18:30
Sicelo	so it's happened :(	18:30
Sicelo	Micro-Nokia-soft	18:31
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jonwil	Me, I will continue to use (and hack on and play with) my N900 until it either dies and becomes unusable, until something happens at my carrier that renders it unusable (e.g. if my carrier stops using frequencies the N900 supports) or until a better phone comes along (which at this point is highly unlikely)	18:35
Sicelo	me too jonwil. my N900 is my daily device. i still have a working n-gage too, and a 9300i communicator which i gave away, but it's found it's way back to me.	18:36
* Sicelo feels like removing the nokia logo from the bezel		18:36
jonwil	My N900 is also my daily (and only) phone.	18:36
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Sicelo	and good to see you jonwil :)	18:37
jonwil	I fear that no company will have the willingness to make a high-end smartphone with a full physical QWERTY again anytime soon	18:38
jonwil	which means if my N900 dies, my only options are to buy a used N900 as a replacement or give up my love of physical keyboards :(	18:38
Sicelo	even if they did, might just be so closed that you can't do anything on such a phone	18:38
jonwil	yeah that would suck	18:39
jonwil	Seems like all the interest in reverse engineering this phone and figuring out how it works seems to have died off, even I cant get inspired to get back into reverse engineering if no-one out there cares about my results	18:42
Sicelo	what makes you feel that way?	18:43
jonwil	just general observations from what I see on tmo etc	18:43
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Sicelo	as far as i can tell, from user POV, interest is still high	18:43
jonwil	I have noticed that in the past there was a sort of "hey, if we can replace <closed source subsystem x> with something better, that's a good thing" (e.g. ICD or MCE) but now the attitude I observe from the technical people is "forget about it, if it works, why bother trying to replace it"	18:45
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Sicelo	hmm. :(	18:45
Pali	jonwil: probably you means me: I wrote that about closed source ipv6 module for icd2	18:46
Sicelo	well, i know for sure that some (Pali, FMG) are still pushing to have stuff replaced, incl. the kernel	18:46
Sicelo	ah, there's Pali to speak for himself :)	18:46
Pali	I wrote that because it really does not make sense to RE only one closed plugin in big ICD2	18:46
Pali	and it really does not make sense to RE ICD2	18:47
Pali	better network daemon should be written from scratch and only needs to have icd2 i2c interface	18:47
Pali	which is of cource public	18:47
jonwil	It matters to reverse engineer ICD2 and its plugins as other things talk to it via not just dbus	18:48
jonwil	but also via other methods that are not documented	18:48
Pali	so only RE API	18:48
Pali	(documented/undocumented dbus/IPC)	18:49
jonwil	Thats what I have been doing over time	18:49
jonwil	reverse engineering the interfaces to ICD and its plugins	18:49
jonwil	but its hard	18:49
Sicelo	\o/ jonwil	18:49
jonwil	especially when dealing with things like gconf	18:49
Pali	jonwil: freemangordon and ade wanted to RE some hildon code	18:50
Pali	maybe you can help	18:50
jonwil	what hildon code specifically?	18:50
Pali	hildon code for notification or something similar	18:50
Pali	bad that he is offline now :-(	18:50
Pali	will try to look at chanlog	18:50
jonwil	sounds like hildon-plugins-notify-sv package	18:51
Pali	I think yes	18:51
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jonwil	I have tried to re that but its too hard :(	18:52
Pali	libhildon-plugins-notify-sv.so	18:52
Pali	jonwil: it is really hard to RE this? ^	18:53
jonwil	last I checked it was annoying to RE, yes	18:54
Pali	ok	18:54
Pali	and systemui or clockd daemon?	18:54
dos11	I guess Microsoft-Nokia news has been already mentioned here gasilion times	18:55
jonwil	both also hard to RE	18:55
dos11	but have you seen the true story behind it? https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/q71/1170764_623665574332364_1926310099_n.jpg	18:55
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Sicelo	yes dos1. i'm late to the party. but the news is still scary enough. anyways	18:57
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shentey	what about using connman as icd2 replacement?	18:58
Orgul	jonwil, Pali: while on one hand I don't mind to get meamo more open if it's RE'd but on the other hand didn't you already do a lot and upstream pretty much everything? shouldn't you be at the point where you could simply compile a new os without maemo closed bits?	18:59
jonwil	We are nowhere near that level	18:59
jonwil	Plenty of key parts that have not been REd or replaced	18:59
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Orgul	jonwil: if you want to stay compatible with maemo or generaly spoken?	19:01
jonwil	If you just want "an OS" on the N900, there are ways to do it with minimal binary blobs (GPU driver being one of the few that still remain)	19:02
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Sicelo	Orgul: also N900 hardware itself.. afaik, we don't yet have good power-savings out of Maemo for example	19:02
kerio	that's just a matter of correct configuration though	19:02
kerio	it's not dependent on any closed blob	19:02
Sicelo	ok.	19:02
Orgul	okay, let's set GPU aside. Is it still impossible to do a meamo like os for n900? based on upstream software? I mean I still don't get modem to work in debian but you guys are probably got this.	19:05
Sicelo	i did do GPRS/D3G in Debian.. that part is easy	19:06
Sicelo	s/D3/3/	19:07
infobot	Sicelo meant: i did do GPRS/3G in Debian.. that part is easy	19:07
Orgul	so from my point of view all that missing is a nice gui for phone calls. okay, I nice gui in general in debian but I keep wondering why still maemo.	19:08
jonwil	someone with greater RE skills than me could probably reverse engineer the x86 versions of hildon-plugins-notify-sv, systemui or clockd	19:08
jonwil	but I lack the skills to RE those binaries	19:08
kerio	Orgul: you're actually missing programs that don't drain your battery by using the cpu when backgrounded, for instance	19:09
Sicelo	not to disturb your train of thought jonwil .. question: what uses the x86 version of the binaries? surely in scratchbox arm binaries are used..	19:10
jonwil	no, x86 is used in scratchbox	19:10
Orgul	kerio: ok, yes. debian wise. in case you guys do something new, and use a recent kernel you could implement upstreamed android bits, like wakelocks and stuff. I mean it's there, it could as well be used.	19:11
kerio	yeah, shit like that is the reason android sucks	19:11
Sicelo	interesting. 10 times wanted to setup scratchbox already.. but each time stopped because i don't really know 'what then?'	19:12
kerio	programs might have a valid reason to do stuff in background	19:12
kerio	i'd expect them to do that stuff, were i using one of those programs	19:12
Orgul	kerio: I don't know much about it, but I don't think it impossible to have background application running. It's a matter of configuration. other then that it's a power saving feature. Sorry if I am wrong or imposing.	19:14
jonwil	I do wonder what libhildon-plugins-notify-sv is doing though and why it needed to be closed-source	19:14
Sicelo	not imposing at all :)	19:14
kerio	the thing is, (most) current maemo programs already know how to behave	19:15
Sicelo	but Orgul, android's way is clearly 'feature-phone' like :p	19:15
kerio	programs installed straight from the debian repos are much less guaranteed	19:15
jonwil	Seems mostly to be related to playing sounds and things (e.g. vibra) for events like incoming phone call, incoming SMS, alarm, incoming IM etc.	19:16
Orgul	Sicelo: true, but it does save power, doesn't it? it was just an Idea. I am not competent enough to give help anyway. Just thinking.	19:19
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kerio	Orgul: the thing is, it implies a lack of trust in the programmer	19:20
DocScrutinizer05	FYI: first hand info about smartreflex aka SR: >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<<	19:21
DocScrutinizer05	~sr	19:22
* infobot grabs a SteamRoller flag and cuddles up to docscrutinizer05		19:22
Orgul	kerio: you mean trust in programmer to design their application to use little power ?	19:22
kerio	eyup	19:22
Orgul	ah, ok. that was a bit difficult. glad I got it.	19:23
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DocScrutinizer05	~#maemo sr is <reply>[SmartReflex] >>Again, TI and we [Nokia] couldn't fix SmartReflex - we say memory corruption in front of our own eyes with that enabled, so we had to ship that disabled.<<	19:23
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	19:23
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DocScrutinizer05	jon_y: possible	19:25
DocScrutinizer05	a nice new puzzle for you ;-)	19:26
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: how about giving infraction points to a process for each call to usleep() ?	19:27
DocScrutinizer05	on 666 infraction points the kernel sends a mail to debian repo to nuke the package off the planet	19:28
kerio	lol	19:30
kerio	also lol regarding the sr quote	19:30
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ecc3g	[/clear	19:47
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SAiF	what is the practical download speed limit in n900	19:53
kerio	how blue is the sky?	19:53
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SAiF	kerio was that a reply to me?	19:54
kerio	yep	19:55
SAiF	sky is kinda blue.. and now its black here	19:55
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SAiF	I think there is a limit at somewhere around 500kbps?	19:56
SAiF	in practice..	19:56
kerio	i don't see why that would be	19:56
SAiF	Well, I may try local now..\	19:57
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SAiF	Kerio, Well I got it, 1350kbps right. Is there something wrong now on my device? This time its from a local PC via Wlan,	20:08
SAiF	The other was my downloads speeds..	20:08
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SAiF	actually KB/s	20:10
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freemangordon	qwazix: the front camera is actually VGA, I won;t call that crappy :P	20:22
freemangordon	it is the way it is used that sucks	20:22
freemangordon	both skype and gtalk are not using VGA, but 320x240 (QVGA?)	20:23
LjL-Alps	it seems to have a number of dead pixels for me	20:23
freemangordon	qwazix: nikocam can use front cam, try it someday and play a bit with brigtness, contrast, etc. You'll see it is far from "that bad" :)	20:24
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LjL-Alps	wait what is nikocam now, other name for camera-ui2?	20:29
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qwazix	freemangordon, I admit i haven't used nikocam with the front camera, but i played a bit with mirror and I could barely see myself	21:23
qwazix	VGA is not bad, not even QVGA, it was the brightness that I thought crappy, but maybe that's software too	21:24
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sixwheeledbeast	freemangordon: tracker-cfg has enough votes for promotion but no maintainer.... I thought I'd mention this as you pushed it to testing IIRC. http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/tracker-cfg/0.3.2-4/ :)	21:33
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raccoon_	hey, is it allowed to request for used n900 in here? just got mine stolen...	21:36
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joga	raccoon_ oh no :(	21:41
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joga	I've been looking for some backup or two or three of them too...but should've bought them when they were still around in auctions, not so much anymore	21:42
raccoon_	same here... i managed to find it on a local web based flea market	21:42
joga	fortunately my gf also has one, maybe she'll get something else eventually ;p	21:42
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raccoon_	for an awesome price, previous owner thought it was useless and sub-par technology wise	21:42
joga	yeah, I got the second one essentially free	21:43
raccoon_	not saying i assume to score one like that again though, i'll happily pay $whatever for one as long as the usb port is ok	21:44
joga	hmm...seems like one n950 on auction heh	21:44
joga	210 euros upwards :P	21:44
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raccoon_	yeah, figures... :-P	21:46
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joga	hmm... so there's something called Neo900 ._o	21:47
* joga squees		21:47
raccoon_	yeah it's the new open source prototype codename	21:49
raccoon_	it's been discussed in here quite a bit	21:49
raccoon_	or one of the codenames, i guess	21:49
DocScrutinizer05	qwazix: nope, that's evidently frontcam that needs _much_ light to be barely usable at all	21:50
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DocScrutinizer05	no sw issue	21:54
DocScrutinizer05	terribly noisy even with good light	21:54
qwazix	that's what I thought too	21:54
qwazix	fmg suggests otherwise	21:54
DocScrutinizer05	btw much the same like on N810	21:55
qwazix	never even tried the N810 cam	21:57
qwazix	I don't know if my unit's camera even operates	21:57
qwazix	:)	21:57
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Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: is http://maemo.org/packages/repository/qa/fremantle_extras-testing/ updated automatically?	22:18
Earthwings	DocScrutinizer05: or rephrased: i just promoted marble-maps and voted for marble, but neither change appears there. should i worry about that?	22:19
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DocScrutinizer05	it can take several hours I guess.	22:38
DocScrutinizer05	please recheck tomorrow and if nothing happened (or sth bad happened) then ask freemangordon or merlin1991 about it. I'm not experienced in repository management and package interface and autobuilder	22:40
DocScrutinizer05	it seems the guys yesterday found some flaws/bugs introduced be the mess that came with fremantle-1.3 repo which basically never should have existed at all.	22:41
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DocScrutinizer05	freemangordon yesterday said he'll go to fix stuff today, but iirc he later on realized that this might not be exactly easy to fix, or at least needs further evaluation and investigation to assure we don't break 80% of users' auto-update when we replace fremantle-1.3 true repository by a symlink to fremantle repository	22:43
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DocScrutinizer05	when fremantle-1.3 ever had some sound rationale, then as a symlink to fremantle (or maybe fremantle a symlink to fremantle-1.3) until eventually we move on to fremantle-1.4	22:45
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DocScrutinizer05	the concept probably being: devices update from fremantle-1.3 while packages go from builder to (symlink) fremantle. When fremantle-1.4 gets released, we create a new repository fremantle-1.4, link fremantle symlink to it and copy the "old" stuff from fremantle-1.3 to fremantle. Then upgrade the fremantle-1.4 repo with new packages and particularly a new catalogs-setting that changes users' catalogs list from fremantle-1.3 to fremantle-1.	22:49
DocScrutinizer05	4 during the system update.	22:49
DocScrutinizer05	thos users who DON'T update to fremantle-1.4 can then still install (app) package versions - e.g. during osso-backup resore process - that match their OS, since they would fetch them from fremantle-1.4 repo, not from fremantle-1.4	22:50
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DocScrutinizer05	alas during migration#1/consolidation (or even earlier than that) somehow the symlink mutated into a real directory aka separate repository, so we now have a fremantle-1.33 and a fremantle repo and both are not in sync and nobody has a clue what gets done where	22:52
DocScrutinizer05	s/33/3/	22:52
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: alas during migration#1/consolidation (or even earlier than that) somehow the symlink mutated into a real directory aka separate repository, so we now have a fremantle-1.3 and a fremantle repo and both are not in sync and nobody has a clue what gets done ...	22:52
DocScrutinizer05	current concerns raised are: will fremantle repo work with fremantle-1.3 Packages.gz?	22:54
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xes	DocScrutinizer05: no	23:08
xes	DocScrutinizer05: fremantle repo contains many more packages than fremantle-1.3 (so these packages are not listed into fremantle-1.3's Packages.gz)	23:09
DocScrutinizer05	xes: it's not primarily about the differences in content between the two repos. It's about if a Package.gz built for fremantleA/ repo can work when user uses the symlink fremantleB/ to access the package	23:11
DocScrutinizer05	the differneces need to get merged I'd guess, so the final merged repo contains all the newest freshest packages of both	23:12
xes	DocScrutinizer05: common packages are inside the same structure	23:12
DocScrutinizer05	xes: actually that "many more packages in fremantle than in fremantle-1.3" supports my above made assumtion that autobuilder builds into fremantle but devices update from fremantle-1.3	23:13
xes	if i'm not wrong, latest package in fremantle-1.3 reports well know date of 20121228	23:14
DocScrutinizer05	sounds about conclusive	23:15
LjL-Alps	hold on a second, is the fact basically everything i have comes from extras-devel and little to none from extras because i have extras enabled as fremantle-1.3? ;(	23:15
DocScrutinizer05	for extras-devel there should no such thing like fremantle-1.3 or fremantle-1.2 at all	23:16
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DocScrutinizer05	should be no*	23:16
LjL-Alps	yeah i have fremantle on extras-devel, but i had fremantle-1.3 on extras	23:17
xes	one more thing: fremantle-1.2 == fremantle-1.3	23:17
DocScrutinizer05	since extras-devel is considered rolling release	23:17
DocScrutinizer05	that's fine, xes	23:17
DocScrutinizer05	we need to keep fremantle-1.2 as is. We need to rename fremantle to fremantle-1.3. We need to create a symlink from fremantle to fremantle-1.3	23:19
DocScrutinizer05	(tha latter mainly for autobuilder)	23:19
xes	DocScrutinizer05: sorry you lost me.. why do we need to preserve fremantle-1.2?	23:20
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DocScrutinizer05	well, actually we probably don't, since it got corrupted a long time ago when it is identical to fremantle-1.3 as of end of last year	23:25
DocScrutinizer05	so it's useless for users still running pr1.2 on their devices anyway, and we as well can nuke it all together	23:26
DocScrutinizer05	but not before we checked for any packages in there that by bad luck are fresher than the corresponding pkg in fremantle	23:27
DocScrutinizer05	it's actualy no surprise that we see extremely low load on our uplink after initial burst for a week. 98% of devices check maemo-extras_fremantle-1.3 and that aiui hasn't seen any updates or changed Packages.gz since last new year	23:30
* DocScrutinizer05 prepares for complete congestion of network uplink after we fixed that fremantle-1.3 issue		23:31
xes	DocScrutinizer05: i would expose here the sqlite db about fremantle/xx comparison so everyone could give his opinion (it could also be a nice tool to search for packages)	23:32
DocScrutinizer05	sqlite db?	23:32
DocScrutinizer05	you mean the files on cloud-7?	23:33
xes	yep	23:33
DocScrutinizer05	go ahead, that's why I uploaded them to this location	23:33
xes	so, this is the db containing the fremantle/fremantle-1.2/fremantle-1.3 comparison until 20130617: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo_repository_lists/pkg.db.bz2	23:34
xes	bunzip pkg.db.bz2, and for example: sqlite3 pkg.db "select * from fremantle where fremantle.name not in (select fremantle13.name from fremantle13);" Will list the packages present in fremantle but not in fremantle-1.3	23:38
DocScrutinizer05	xes: could you create a symlink from fremantletest -> fremantle and then find a few users willing to test the fremantletest catalog/repo in apt and HAM?	23:39
DocScrutinizer05	if that works, and we don't find any pkgs in fremantle-1.[23] which are newer than same pkg in fremantle, then I think we are good to rename fremantle to fremantle-1.3 and create a symlink fremantle->fremantle-1.3 (and nuke resp move away for now the fremantle1.2 repo)	23:42
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xes	i think that to make a test we don't need fremantletest. It's enough that the betatesters remove every repo containing fremantle-1.2 or fremantle-1.3	23:43
xes	and they should try to install one of the latest deb just built from autobuilder	23:44
xes	..at the end, my opinion is that renaming and not linking fremantle-1.2 and fremantle-1.3 would force everyone to use only fremantle (doing so we obtain also a bandwidth usage of 1/3 compared to actual situation and a faster apt-get update into the devices)	23:46
kerio	are those official repos?	23:47
kerio	if not, fuck em	23:47
DocScrutinizer05	xes: no! we need to make sure that a renaming of the repo doesn't conflict with any "hardcoded" repo names inside Packages.gz or other signature files etc	23:47
DocScrutinizer05	and we can't "force" users to do anything like that, since we don't reach them to tell them what to do	23:48
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DocScrutinizer05	fact is that we have a mixed set of clients: 90+% have fremantle-1.3 for extras repo. Some 10% maybe, have fremantle for extras repo. We can't break stuff for any of them	23:50
xes	DocScrutinizer05: ok. But, in this moment, everyone without /fremantle/ repos can't pick new packages	23:51
DocScrutinizer05	yes	23:51
DocScrutinizer05	that's why we need to fix this	23:51
kerio	ln -s fremantle fremantle-1.3	23:52
xes	sure. Does freemangordon has some thought about all this?	23:52
DocScrutinizer05	thus, again: after testing with fremantletest repo, and after checking for no newer packages in fremantle-1.3, we do: mv fremantle1.2 fremantle-1.2-obsolete; rm fremantle-1.3; mv fremantle fremantle-1.3; ln -s fremantle-1.3 fremantle	23:54
DocScrutinizer05	xes: ( freemangordon ) I don't know	23:55
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DocScrutinizer05	his last concern been "will renaming of a repo break apt resp Packages.gz?"	23:55
DocScrutinizer05	thus we do a test with fremantletest repo symlinking to fremantle	23:56
xes	talking again about the sqlite db, sqlite3 pkg.db "select count(distinct name) from fremantle13;" will count fremantle-1.3 packages, while: sqlite3 pkg.db "select count(distinct name) from fremantle;" will count the fremantle packages. Results: fremantle-1.3= 72843 fremantle-1.2=72843 fremantle=83579	23:57
DocScrutinizer05	sounds about right. Now we just need to check if any of the packages in fremantle12 or fremantle13 is newer than the pkg with same basename in fremantle	23:59

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