IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2013-08-26

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DocScrutinizer05hi dos1!00:19
dos1DocScrutinizer05: hello :) I'm hyped for your gta04-n900 idea!00:19
DocScrutinizer05don't you think this was a nice kickoff for Neo900 (I love that project name)00:19
DocScrutinizer05now we need to catch up the tiny initial momentum00:20
DocScrutinizer05like making fire with a stick and a board00:20
DocScrutinizer05needs 4 weeks of drilling, then carefully blow to boost the flame00:21
DocScrutinizer054 weeks drilling already been done, I think today I seen the first smoke00:21
DocScrutinizer05kudos for your website work!00:22
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DocScrutinizer05mayybe start a new thread on tmo?00:23
dos1I'll keep fingers crossed for that flame :) it's amazing idea, can bring Openmoko and Maemo community really close for a common goal00:23
infobotdos1 meant: I'll keep fingers crossed for that flame :) it's amazing idea, can bring Openmoko and Maemo communities really close for a common goal00:23
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dos1who, me? I can do that00:25
dos1but maybe your name will bring more attention and trust, i'm completely unknown there00:26
lexikwhat what? what i missed?00:26
dos1just "[23:23] <DocScrutinizer05> mayybe start a new thread on tmo?" ;)00:26
lexikdosl: that website about gta04 is nice, one day we will need similar one for Neo90000:27
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lexiknew thread on tmo is a good idea, as wikipage is (but that could wait)00:29
lexikreplicant will be awesome - but NITDroid team will maybe kill us (hi, e-yes)..00:31
DocScrutinizer05  here you are00:32
NeutrinoPowerhi, why don't work the gprs/gsm/umts... internet access on my N900 anymore? I tried the sim on a android-smartphone with success but on Maemo I only get an IP with gprs-device but cannot reach a website..00:32
DocScrutinizer05sorry for terribly terse post, i'm really in a hurry now00:32
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lexikDocScrutinizer05: GREAT!00:34
dos1DocScrutinizer05: thanks, I'll write down some details there :)00:34
DocScrutinizer05feel free to augment the thread with details00:34
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freemangordonOMG, new mc in extras-devel :D00:35
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lexikfreemangordon: good to see some progress :)00:35
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lexikDocScrutinizer05: can we bought an n900-guinea-pig for openmoko community from hildon foundation PP account?00:41
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DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: MWKN
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freemangordonno fmtx and hwkbd :(00:44
lexikso it it will be a good idea to create an separate "maemo brick" (just like CSSU one or "help us keep on the lights") ... something like "Maemo future? You are. Neo900."00:45
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dos1DocScrutinizer05: posted :)00:55
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: eh?00:56
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm, lemme read the post first, maybe I didn't get it00:56
DocScrutinizer05we build a new PCB and place it into a N900 spare case from Hongkong00:57
dos1freemangordon: current GTA04 has fmtx, and GTA04-N900 vel Neo900 will have hw-keyboard, because N900 case has it ;)00:57
DocScrutinizer05and a "prototype" of the new PCB already exists: GTA0400:58
freemangordonok, so the idea is to use the casing and screen from n900?00:59
freemangordondos1: good00:59
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: well, I guess I can help with the kernel part :)01:00
keriofreemangordon: DocScrutinizer05's plan is crazy though01:04
keriohe wants to reuse even the closed bits01:04
freemangordonkerio: so?01:05
WizzupI would prefer to use open bits only, IF possible01:05
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keriothe idea is to actually tweak fremantle for the new hw01:05
WizzupI could probably help coding a bit, too :)01:05
kerioand, well01:05
freemangordonkerio: what is the problem?01:05
keriofremantle is a horrible linux distro01:05
freemangordonmight be, ut it is better suited for mobile computer than anything else IMO01:06
keriooh absolutely01:06
Wizzupfreemangordon: its mostly just debian, isn't it?01:06
LjL-Alpsyeah, i wouldn't put money into a project that moves a weirc closed distro to new hardware, even though i spend (a small amount) of money to get the original hardware01:06
kerioWizzup: it's like a really outdated debian with crap laying everywhere01:06
freemangordonWizzup: ^^^01:06
Wizzupright, so why not start with debian and pull in all open packages and work from that?01:07
freemangordonWizzup: because we don;t have HW01:07
Wizzup(I'm just a computer scientist without any real maemo knowledge)01:07
freemangordonWizzup: BTW aapo is already doing lots of stuff in that regard01:07
DocScrutinizer05LjL-Alps: the hardware is 100% open and free, you're free to run on it whatever you like. For 100% fremantle compatibilty though, you have to sacrifice some of your openness-requirements01:07
WizzupI think especially gprs is problematic to have an open version01:08
Wizzupso for drivers it makes sense, I guess, but for user space not so much?01:08
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: So what does 100% fremantle compat offer vs 95% fremantle compat?01:08
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: if there is enough interest, we can RE/rewrite whatever we like01:08
freemangordonWizzup: iiuc this is still to be discussed01:09
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: BT, WLAN, GPU01:09
WizzupDocScrutinizer05: sure, but those components aren't fremantle specific are they? those are just drivers01:09
WizzupI can expect those to be closed01:09
WizzupI mean, I'd hope them to be open, but yeah01:09
freemangordonWizzup: almost everything else is open01:09
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: (RE) sure01:10
DocScrutinizer05just like on CSSU01:10
freemangordonI know :P01:10
Wizzupfreemangordon: okay then :-) that seems sensible01:10
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: and we have FOSS rewrites of most of the important applications01:11
Sc0rpiusfreemangordon, I promoted my package to extras but it says missing dependencies and that's very weird01:11
Sc0rpiussince dependencies are PR 1.301:11
DocScrutinizer05I'm more concerned about some libs, e.g. liblocation01:11
freemangordonSc0rpius: ok01:11
Sc0rpiusand that didn't happen in extras/testing or extras/devel01:11
DocScrutinizer05stuff like that01:11
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: liblocation is some 20k arm binary iirc01:12
DocScrutinizer05and ICD2 should prolly "just work"01:12
freemangordonthat 2-3 days to be REed01:12
freemangordon*that needs01:12
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: hmm is it? i thought gta04 needed more than its fair share of proprietary firmwares, or at least the wifi one01:12
DocScrutinizer05well, I consider firmware not any part of the OS01:13
DocScrutinizer05it's a set of initialization data transfered to some peripherial chip01:14
freemangordonSc0rpius: I guess this is false alarm, it just says this is not compatible with PR1.001:14
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freemangordonSc0rpius: did you try to install it using HAM?01:15
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: see, If the project starts and new developers join or "old" come back, there will be resources to do whatever we want from the SW side01:16
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DocScrutinizer05hah! that would be an awesome surprise01:17
DocScrutinizer05ho qwazix01:17
freemangordonSc0rpius: is there any problem besides those "missing dependencies"?01:18
Macerim a bit curious tho as what there is to be gained by making a knockoff n90001:19
Macerunless there was some serious dev behind it. n900 at least had a nokia jump start for about a year01:19
dos1Macer: we want to piggy-back on work done for both N900 and Openmoko01:20
lexikive just posted my motivation post to Neo900 thread :)01:21
freemangordonMacer: besides viber, what exactly fremantle lacks from the SW POV?01:21
keriofreemangordon: recent libraries01:21
keriorecent apt01:21
Macerrecent social apps heh01:22
kerioMacer: don't be silly01:22
Macercouldnt help it01:22
keriowe've got a whatsapp clone01:22
kerioand we have a facebook thingie01:22
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WizzupI just tried - installing yappari seems to work01:22
Macera fb plugin?01:22
Wizzup(didn't try lauching it)01:22
Wizzupperhaps a different (older) version?01:22
Macerfor photos and im?01:22
freemangordonkerio: CSSU has already upgraded some of the libs. ANd AFAIK aapo did the same for lots more01:23
Macersociality had a lot of promise but i dont think it is worked on01:23
freemangordonMacer: there if FB photo/video uploader since ages01:23
Maceri know01:23
infobotfreemangordon meant: Macer: there is FB photo/video uploader since ages01:23
Macerthat is what i meant... photo uploader and im01:23
freemangordonMacer: ooh, so you miss FB app? omg, use the browser01:24
Macerthe widget launches microb to use fb ;) there is no real app... the twitter app wasnt too bad01:24
Macerfreemangordon: there are disadvantages to that01:24
freemangordonbullshit, we have browser, that is why we don;t need app for the next piece of crap01:24
Macerie: uses more mem, doesnt cache as well, no unnecessary js/php running etc01:25
Macerno ads :)01:25
dos1Openmoko project showed that completely own software can be problematic01:25
dos1I'm using my Neo Freerunner with SHR as my daily, main phone01:25
Macerhow is it?01:25
dos1but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who's not as crazy geek as me01:25
freemangordondos1: fremantle libs can be upgraded to more recent versions IMO01:26
freemangordonmaybe not easy, but possible01:26
Sc0rpiusfreemangordon, I would have to try to download the package in a stock N900 to test those dependencies won't fail01:26
dos1we can gain a lot by using fremantle01:26
Sc0rpiusbut in my phone there's no point since I have those packages installed01:26
dos1to just provide something that works from the start01:26
dos1and then of course everything can happen, since it's free platform01:27
Macerheh. first thing would be to get the gta04 into hands of devs01:27
freemangordondos1: makes sense01:27
dos1you can run QtMoko, SHR, Debian, Replicant - they already work on GTA0401:27
Macernormally nokia would do this :)01:27
Macerso who fronts the money for these devices? devs with a cause?01:27
dos1you can port anything else - Fremantle would be there just as one option01:28
dos1for people who just want to upgrade their N90001:28
dos1(at least that's how I see it)01:28
freemangordondos1: hmm, maybe one should contact the Cordia people. They gave up because of the lack of HW01:28
Macerwhat is the gta02 running?01:30
Macerif an a8 is an "upgrade" heh01:30
dos1may be good idea01:30
dos1Macer: armv4t01:30
Maceroh. ouch01:30
dos1Samsung 2442 SoC, 256MB RAM01:31
Macertoo bad symbian wasnt released to the public :(01:31
Macerpoor symbian is in russian limbo... like ecomstation01:31
jake42dos1: 128MB RAM iirc01:31
dos1jake42: ouch, right01:31
Macerkind of cool how modular it is01:32
dos1stupid me :) it lays in front of me and i still can't get specs right :D01:32
Maceralthough it says "peeling off the lcd"01:32
Maceryou have to peel off the lcd?01:32
dos1Macer: with GTA04? yup, the point is to use LCD from your old GTA01/02 with GTA0401:33
dos1with Neo900 it wouldn't be the case anymore, as we can use new spare parts01:33
Maceryeah i saw that heh. well. i have none of the above.01:34
freemangordonSc0rpius: iiuc Wizzup has installed it a couple of minutes ago.01:34
Macerthey dont sell them preassembled?01:34
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dos1Macer: that's the point. GTA04 as it is now can't reach the masses, cause there's very limited number of GTA01/02 owners01:34
dos1Macer: and even more limited numbers of people interested :)01:34
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jon_yheh, how do I even get one?01:35
dos1Macer: you can buy it preassembled from used GTA02, provided that used GTA02s are in stock01:35
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Macerthn buy all the gta04 parts?01:35
Macerlol. sounds like far too much of a hassle01:35
dos1Macer: some parts aren't produced anymore, hence the switch to N90001:35
Macerlooks awesome tho01:35
dos1yup, it is01:35
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dos1right now01:36
dos1Neo900 is going to change it :)01:36
Macerthats what they said about the first freerunner ;)01:36
Maceryour optimism is good tho01:36
dos1well, I think that's exactly what was missing in whole GTA04 concept01:36
dos1haha :D no, things Neo900 can change01:37
dos1but maybe more optimism would be nice too, there was rather poor demand ;)01:37
freemangordondos1: what about the camera module?01:37
dos1I thank DocScrutinizer05 a lot for this idea01:37
dos1freemangordon: GTA04 as it is right now has some optional camera module01:38
Macerwell if it manages to work out01:38
Maceri will buy one ;)01:38
freemangordonwhich can't be optional if put in n900 case ;)01:38
dos1freemangordon: right01:38
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RiDyou guys are crazy01:39
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dos1freemangordon: it's good question, but I think it's a bit too early to answer (i mean - *which* camera module, maybe even the original one if there are spare parts available? not *if*, it has to be there for sure :) )01:39
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RiDwould the internal flash be quite faster than the n900?01:41
freemangordondos1: :nod:01:41
freemangordonRiD: who cares, with the RAM doubled :)01:41
RiDehh, sure, double ram would mean that we could very well keep more stuff on the background for faster opening, but still01:42
RiDnot wanting to be negative or anything, i find that a crazy idea (in it's good way) and I'd like it to be successfull01:42
dos1GTA04 itself was very crazy idea01:43
dos1yet it worked - there are around ~100 devices out there right now01:43
dos1and I think it's a lot given a VERY specific niche it targets01:43
RiDi sadly wouldn't buy one (eh, not the best financial situation) but when i look at all other "alternatives" i just sit on a corner and start crying01:44
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freemangordondos1: BTW why 512MB of RAM, woudn't 768MB or even 1GB make more sense?01:44
RiDkeep swap minimal01:44
* RiD runs01:44
freemangordonlexik: this is what kills the preformance on N90001:44
freemangordonperformance even01:45
dos1(well, it targets only people who already have Openmoko device, are crazy enough to pay a lot for something with pretty much low specs and are still active in Openmoko community - 100 is a lot)01:45
RiDi remember seeing that thread with unresized pictures and made my n900 sh__ itself01:45
dos1freemangordon: dunno, price maybe? I think Neo900 can have slightly better specs than current GTA04.01:46
freemangordonRiD: yeah, I hit hat too01:46
RiDopera handles images much better though :P01:46
RiDits a love/hate relationship01:46
dos1freemangordon: it's all matter of demand. If you have only 100 customers, you want to keep specs minimal to keep some decent price01:47
freemangordondos1: I'd happily change 3730/1GHz with 512MB for 3530/720MHz with 1GB. Though I have NFC if that is possible and how much it will cost :)01:47
RiDspeaking of that, how about the "overclockability" of these cpus01:48
dos1freemangordon: go state that in tmo thread :)01:48
freemangordonRiD: think N901:48
RiDah well01:48
freemangordonnot much iiuc01:49
dos1freemangordon: idea appeared few days ago, first prototypes are some months away01:49
RiDeven for the 3530?01:49
freemangordondos1: sure01:49
dos1freemangordon: there's big room for discussion01:49
RiDi know you cant really tell anyways01:49
dos1and I'm not even the right person to properly discuss stuff like that - I'm just supporter :)01:50
freemangordondos1: sure, but seems you have more info than me01:50
freemangordonthat is why I am trying to steal as much as I can from you :)01:50
dos1you can reach Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller who designs GTA04 board on Openmoko and OpenPhoenux community maillists01:50
dos1he runs Golden Delicious, who produces GTA0401:51
dos1and if Neo900 idea really kicks off, that's him and his team who will be redesigning it for N900 case and components01:51
DocScrutinizer05and maybe me01:52
RiDif i win the lottery i'll make sure i drop a few pennies01:52
freemangordonwell, I'll discuss that with DocScrutinizer05 for now, we have a long history of arguing :D01:52
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: we will get the best SoC we can grab01:53
DocScrutinizer05sourcing SoC is one of the more complicated things01:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: sure, but "best" needs to be defined first I guess01:54
DocScrutinizer05not if your choice is limited to 1 or max 2 types anyway ;-)01:55
freemangordonDocScrutinizer51: afaik RAM is not a part of the SoC01:55
DocScrutinizer05you ever tried to buy a OMAP3430?01:55
DocScrutinizer05it is01:55
freemangordonme? no :)01:55
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05, i tend to put "uploaded firmware" beyond the line. because if the firmware is already in the peripheral, then you don't see it, but if you do have to see it, then you might not be able to redistribute it etc. also, firmware for devices that communicate very closely with the system (share RAM) can pose security threats01:55
freemangordonisn't it on the top of the Soc?01:55
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DocScrutinizer05LjL-Alps: we have no shared-RAM peripherals01:56
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: yep01:56
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I am judging from the different N900 revisions, some have 2x128MB, some 1X256MB01:56
freemangordondifferent manifacturers, etc01:57
RiDwould 2x128 be better than 1x25601:57
freemangordonI guess no01:57
freemangordonor rather no difference01:57
dos1LjL-Alps: yup, shared-RAM wouldn't be acceptable for this project01:57
dos1LjL-Alps: closed firmware, but with ability to redistribute01:58
dos1LjL-Alps: that's "the worst" we can still accept01:58
LjL-Alpsfair enough01:58
freemangordonanyway, time to have some sleep. Count me in, when it comes to porting the kernel/Fremantle. night02:01
dos1good night :)02:02
lexikhowever, me to, good night :)02:03
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DocScrutinizer05dos1: this feels like it actually could fly02:08
dos1DocScrutinizer05: yup :)02:09
DocScrutinizer05many thanks for your support! you're way better than me on such stuff02:09
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dos1no prob02:10
DocScrutinizer05I'm wondering what Nikolaus will say when he returns from holiday tomorrow and sees the 2mess" we created :-D02:10
dos1hehe :D02:10
DocScrutinizer05well, he knows the basics already since I had some mails with him today, but the last few hours are probably new development to him02:11
dos1I think even such small thing (compared to scope of whole project) as hardware keyboard can be a huuuge benefit over current GTA0402:15
dos1I smell that if we do this right, we can get more interested people than just Maemo guys and some Openmoko leftovers02:16
RiDspeaking of keyboard, who's willing to sell an english variant of the n900 keyboard for only 1€02:17
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DocScrutinizer05I'd buy some for even more02:25
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DocScrutinizer05dos1: exactly. We might even get the news about some freaks who love vintage & free over leete new phablets out to the media02:29
dos1so hipster :D02:31
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RiD245 seconds02:38
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DocScrutinizer05dos1: I think it's essential to showcase a working fremantle on a Goldelico device, no matter what subsystems still missing, no matter if even a kbd attached or whatever. Just build a KP52 with boardcfg of GTA02 and install some sort of hildon desktop so you can start an xterm under the well known hildon-desktop look&feel. Then publish that02:43
Win7MacHoly cow, just reading backlog... nice!02:43
DocScrutinizer05on youtube or7and and/or maemo.org02:44
DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: hi!02:44
Win7Macthink kickstarter and you'll easily get tens of kilo$$02:44
DocScrutinizer05we probably gonna do something like that, with a goal of 500 devices02:45
Win7Mac1st thought: n900 is quite klunky, E7 would be so much nicer02:45
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DocScrutinizer05yes, but it's actually much harder to use E7 spare parts for our purposes02:46
Win7Mac...but still need to read backlog ;)02:46
Win7Macyeah, already got that02:46
DocScrutinizer05dos1: did you mail Nikolaus about your notion regading my "idea"?02:48
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DocScrutinizer05not that it would seem like Nikolaus needs much more arguments to look into Neo900, he already mailed me he starts to love the idea02:49
DocScrutinizer05but he for sure can use more confirmation02:49
dos1DocScrutinizer05: nope02:49
dos1I'll do that, either to him privately or to openphoenux maillist, but tomorrow - going to bed soon ;)02:50
DocScrutinizer05send him a link to your initial post on neo900 thread! it's awesome02:50
DocScrutinizer05right, this damn openphoenux ML where I dropped off for strange reasons02:51
dos1I realised few days ago that I wasn't even subscribed02:52
DocScrutinizer05I think I once been, but somebody kicked me off that ML02:52
DocScrutinizer05or maybe that been internal developers' ML02:53
dos1I think something changed at some time, cause I thought I had subscribed when project was starting02:53
DocScrutinizer05btw dos:seen mickeyL02:54
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dos1ouch, I was, but in gta04-owner02:55
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DocScrutinizer05dos1: any news about mickey?02:55
dos1I think that was the only one on goldelico servers back then, so I subscribed regardless of not being gta04 owner :D02:55
HtheBgta5 coming soon02:56
dos1DocScrutinizer05: hmm, I don't know02:56
HtheBsorry, I really had to say that :P02:56
dos1DocScrutinizer05: I wasn't even looking at IRC recently02:56
DocScrutinizer05I seem to not have seen/heard of him for several months02:57
dos1DocScrutinizer05: but he was "endorsing" me on LinkedIn from time to time ;)02:57
DocScrutinizer05I'd like to hear what he thinks of this little "merger" project02:57
dos1so looks like he's still alive02:57
dos1yup, I'm curious too02:58
DocScrutinizer05good, that's the most important thing02:58
HtheByo doc02:58
DocScrutinizer05he and the kid and family02:58
HtheBareyouu going to get GTA5?02:59
HtheBare you02:59
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Wulfedoes this Openmoko merger affect us N810 users?02:59
DocScrutinizer05alas not02:59
DocScrutinizer05maybe -alas02:59
WulfeN810 is dieing off =(02:59
HtheBso does the N900 Wulfe03:00
DocScrutinizer05Wulfe: what kind of impact would you hope for?03:00
Wulfeyeah but there is still support for the N900 and a lot more apps developed for it03:00
Wulfepersonally i am just hoping for some new life brought back to the device03:01
DocScrutinizer05indeed rarely ever a new app for diablo03:01
Wulfei been looking in to doing some development myself but its not going very well with limited resources.03:01
Wulfeall i have is 1 N810 wimax edition and a shady laptop with the sdk.03:02
Wulfeso eventually when i get the sdk on a better desktop i might be able to get something new going in the extras repo.03:03
Wulfebut till then all i have is whats left on the forums, which sadly isnt much being its all mostly out of date info.03:03
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RiDWulfe put some real bugs in your n81003:08
RiDboom, it has life03:08
Wulfereal bugs?03:08
RiDreal bugs, yes.03:08
RiDactual living things03:08
Wulfeoh a joke03:08
Wulfehar har har03:08
RiDhue hue hue03:09
RiDyu spich ingres?03:09
Wulfeyes i speak english, and apperently i can translate bad english as well.03:09
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RiDthat's one skill I tremendously improved these days03:10
Wulfe19 years now on irc it has become second hand nature.03:10
Wulfeespecialy if you hang on networks like rizon where its main user traffic is trolls and noobs.03:11
RiDI shall call it  Language Demystification AI System powered by Brain™03:11
Wulfei like it, you should write a book.03:12
RiD"How to develop the inner Language Demystifaction AI System you have on your brain, now in a compact booK"03:12
Wulfethis guy ^03:13
RiDunderstand the inner meaning of random captchas words - they're sending a message03:13
RiDi cried03:15
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infobotDocScrutinizer: infobot joined!04:03
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DocScrutinizer05sid_blub: still awake?04:48
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FIQlol there's a minor graphical oops in backupmenu which is driving me nuts :p05:07
FIQoh well05:07
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DocScrutinizer05FIQ: hmm?05:27
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ApicA wonderful splendid good Morning (UGT) to You all.08:48
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AndrewX192usb port sadness09:11
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WizardNumberNexthello. Where lock-code is stored? I have my 3rd n900. Unfortunately lock-code isn't default anymore and I would like to have same lock-code on my 3rd as on my 1st.09:57
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AndrewX192WizardNumberNext: /dev/mtd*10:09
AndrewX192not sure which one10:09
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lexikDocScrutinizer05: the pottentional n900 for tests: ... what do you think about it?10:26
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lexikDocScrutinizer51: highlight ^^10:29
WizardNumberNextAndrewX192, I know it is some mtd. I need extact location though10:31
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WizardNumberNextDocScrutinizer05, idea is nice, but there's no details at all. Kernel 3.1 is bit archaic as well.10:37
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DocScrutinizer05good (UGT) morning!13:09
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IridosDocScrutinizer05, now you have to spend some time explaining what ugt is :P it's the rule!13:54
Iridosoh, and good morning13:55
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infobotfrom memory, ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant.
DocScrutinizer05we streamlined that process ;-)13:56
qwerty123_hi what is "alt" key in easy deb.. trying to use finch.. need keys or vkb.13:57
DocScrutinizer05usually the blue key13:57
qwerty123_nowt working :(13:57
DocScrutinizer05dunno abozut ED13:57
DocScrutinizer05try pressing esc instead press+hold alt  --  this works for some apps13:58
qwerty123_finch opens in terminal,. so alt key should of maemo??13:58
qwerty123_no help. pressing+holding, works in easydeb apps. for terminal apps, just pressing does.14:00
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lexikis IR on GTA04?14:01
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DocScrutinizer05iirc it is14:09
lexikgood :)14:09
dos1yup, it is14:10
dos1mornin' :)14:10
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Iridospft. I thought you have to spend at least the amount of time it would have taken to figure out everyones timezone14:11
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lexikhm.. wordpress client for maemo is nice :) its lightweight, fast and usable14:55
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Win7MacAny chance the Neo900 can run Harmattan, Meego, Sailfish or Ubuntu Touch?15:48
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SpeedEvilit can run meego, and android16:06
SpeedEvilgoogle nitdroid16:06
SpeedEvilAnd meego is basically dead16:06
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DocScrutinizer05I don't see why it couldn't run sailfish, though the touchscreen doesn't support multitouch as we all know16:30
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Win7Macah ya, damn16:32
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Win7MacDocScrutinizer05, did you have a chance to look into my draft for the e.V.?16:33
DocScrutinizer05not even seen it16:33
Win7Macsorry, another webpad...16:33
DocScrutinizer05and I dunnop if I'm available for it anymore16:34
DocScrutinizer05you might be better off without me16:34
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Win7Macwell, feel free to comment on it. your input would much appreciated16:35
DocScrutinizer05OK, I opened the pad, will look at it later tonight16:35
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Win7Machow can I get a proper english translation of it?16:36
DocScrutinizer05no idea16:37
DocScrutinizer05ask community to help out16:37
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lexikWin7Mac: Neo900 will probably be able to run replicant android clon16:45
lexikthis is much better than nitdroid in my opinion16:45
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dos1former Nokia kernel devs on Neo900 side? wowowow! :D19:09
freemangordondos1: I'll believe when I see it :)19:09
dos1freemangordon: hehe :) but still, it sounds uberamazing19:10
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dos1as we need to ensure proper power management, at least in pair to N90019:11
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dos1GTA04 is rather poor in this regard at the moment19:11
freemangordondos1: And that is one reason why we should keep the kernel as it is, no matter if it is old, wait for Pali to upstream whatever possible, and slowly upgrade it aterwards19:12
freemangordondos1: but maybe I talk nonsense, I don;t know how's gta04 compared to n900 re power management19:13
dos1and I don't know details either19:15
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freemangordondos1: hopefully the newer SoC (40nm or even 30nm) will help us when we can't do the proper SW :D19:18
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szopindoes anyone know if omap3 <-> omap4 would be binary compatible?19:49
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wmaroneshould be, they're bot ARMv719:51
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szopinyes, both armv719:55
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dos1if you're question is about Neo900, then "they're both armv7" is not enough19:55
dos1think about power management19:56
szopinwhat's missing? drivers?19:56
freemangordonszopin: OMAP4 means dual core?19:56
szopinyes, it's about neo, didn't want to spam the thread with questions19:56
dos1Nokia has invested lots of work into it, and most of ther work are hacks that are not going to be upstreamed anytime19:56
dos1I don't think we have enough capacity to create anything in pair of N900's power management - GTA04 is struggling with power consumption problems19:57
freemangordonszopin: I have NFC how fremantle would behave on 2 or more cores, too much of a risk IMO.19:57
dos1keeping it as close to N900 as we can will simplify it a lot19:57
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freemangordondos1: hopefully there are at least 2 of us knowing n900 kernel enough to do almost whatever we want with it :)19:58
szopinyes, but without 'better enough' specs it's going to be a hard sell19:58
freemangordonszopin: it is not CPU that makes n900 stutter, no?19:59
dos1szopin: and second factor agains "better enough" is price19:59
szopinhard to say, so many tweaks...19:59
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freemangordonszopin: and most of them related to swap - swappolube, swappiness, cssu-thumb, etc.19:59
dos1szopin: with such small production runs, it matters a lot20:00
wmaronefreemangordon: I'd wager lack of ram before CPU20:00
szopinflopswap, swappolube...20:00
freemangordonwmarone: anytime :)20:00
dos1I'd love to see Neo900 with 1GB RAM20:00
freemangordonme too20:00
dos1we'll just have yet to see if it's possible at all20:00
wmaronecause my n9 has had stall moments, but -never- ever as bad as the N900 has had tem20:00
RiDi think everyone would love to see it20:00
szopinpeople tweak all they can, OCed to 1150 does seem to work less stuttery that's for sure20:00
freemangordonszopin: imagine n900 as it is, just with 1GB or RAM20:01
RiDless swap action, sleeping core apps20:01
dos1availability of SoCs in small quantities is crucial here20:01
dos1we may have no choice but to go with 512, so we don't want to spread false excitement20:02
RiDit's still double ._.20:02
freemangordonszopin: omap3430 @ 600 MHZ is a powerful device. I am not saying that having 2x1GHz is not good, but it is not the CPU that is the bottleneck20:02
dos1I prefer "hey, look, we were able to increase amount of RAM from 512MB to 1GB!" than "oh crap, we are not able to get 1GB, it's going to have 512MB, sorry!"20:03
szopinsure... just, with people mostly interested in 300-400 euro area...20:03
freemangordonszopin: also, have in mind that never 3xxx have faster memory acceess20:03
freemangordonszopin: no way IMO20:04
szopinmight be better to buy second hand N9's, rip their boards and voila 1gb ram20:04
RiDgood luck porting maemo to it20:04
freemangordonszopin: even pin-to-pin compatible, 3630 is not 343020:04
dos1szopin: good luck with "ripping their boards"20:04
wmaroneat that point you might as well port gtk and hildon to Mer/NemoMobile and be done with it20:05
szopinso we're stuck with 3430?20:05
dos1hardware world is not that easy :(20:05
dos1poll is for 373020:05
freemangordonszopin: no, we're stuck with cortexA820:05
dos1so I guess it's one of the safe options20:06
szopinone sec, checking 3730, must've missed it20:06
freemangordonszopin: see, sammy need 4 cores and 2GB of RAM because the OS and SW is highly inefficient20:06
freemangordonwe don;t have that problem20:07
szopin3730 not even listed in wikipedia :/20:07
RiD8 cores in some editions, if you want to impress people with numbers20:07
RiDdespite it being no real benefit other than power saving it seems20:07
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szopinfmg: sure, but those wpa handshakes are not gonna crack themselves ;D20:07
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freemangordonszopin: use your S3 for that :P20:08
dos1szopin: TI DM3730, just like in BeagleBoard-xM20:08
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freemangordondos1: this is still c64+ DSP, ain't?20:08
szopinfmg: using 64 raided s5's for it20:08
RiDso freemangordon, i heard half life is your favorite game20:08
freemangordonbut still no HL3 :(20:08
RiDHL3 has 3 letters20:09
RiDhalf life 3 confirmed20:09
* RiD runs for his life.20:09
szopinneo <- 3 letters20:09
szopinhl3 confirmed when neo comes out20:09
freemangordonyeah, duke nukem forever :D20:09
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RiDhah, make neo pretend to be a half life 3 crowdfunding kickstarter20:09
RiDinfinite money source20:09
freemangordonbut wait, it is out, so why not neo900?20:09
dos1freemangordon: TMS320C64x+TM20:10
szopinwell, dn forever was shit20:10
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mashinais it just me, or is the N900 GPS completely incompetent?20:10
freemangordondos1: yep, c64x, so we won;t have any probplem with multimedia and such20:10
freemangordonmashina: just you20:10
mashina(i don't have a SIM, so I can't use cell towers)20:10
mashinai can never acquire a lock, even outside20:10
RiDbetter leave it out in the open for 1 hour20:10
freemangordonyou need to wait 10+ minutes then20:10
szopinthrow it as high as you can20:11
freemangordonhmm, how was that app called?20:11
RiDwhile throwing it, use the n900 fly application so you can measure it20:11
freemangordonyep, this ^^^ one :D20:11
szopingo for highscore20:11
szopinbonus points for hitting a satellite20:11
RiDi actually threw it, but it was on my bed20:11
szopinyou will get a lock then for sure20:11
RiDthat's how the gsm stopped working, usb failed and right speaker blew up20:11
freemangordonmashina: withaout A-GPS it takes a while for the lock to be acquired20:12
qwazixwouldn't be sane to first try and run maemo on N950 before embarking in costly hardware adventures?20:12
dos1RiD: there's something in it20:12
RiDdos1 hm?20:12
freemangordonqwazix: what for?20:12
dos1RiD: I also was trowing my N900 on bed20:12
dos1and now USB is broken20:12
qwazixsame OMAP as the GTA04, no?20:12
RiDmine too, but everything else works20:12
freemangordonqwazix: no fmtx, uSD, etc20:12
szopin3630 if it is same as n920:12
RiDi did blew up the right speaker (my own fault) and the earspeaker... well that one was not my fault. Don't know why it was broke20:12
qwazixfreemangordon, just for making sure the thing will work reasonably well20:13
RiDbut i replaced them20:13
dos1qwazix: a bit better afaik20:13
qwazixif this succeeds, then by all means go on20:13
freemangordonqwazix: power management is different, as well as screen controller20:13
RiDanyone who wants a 2nd hand screen for n900, two white spots20:13
freemangordonand whatnot else20:13
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qwazixfreemangordon, :nod:20:14
RiDspeaking of that, i have a dead n900 motherboard on my garage20:14
szopin3730: dsp at 800mhz, nice20:14
szopinI wonder how high can one OC20:14
RiDi knew i was buying a broken n900, but he claimed that the body and etc was in good shape. Boy, the pic noise fooled me big time20:14
freemangordonszopin: not much, this is not the 60nm tech we have in n90020:14
RiDthe horror when i saw the touchscreen20:15
dos13730 supports up to 4GB RAM20:15
mashinayou people are cruel to your N900s20:15
RiDit was all peeling off20:15
RiDlike dead skin20:15
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freemangordonmashina: naah, they just talk like that, trust me :)20:15
szopinfmg: ??? so is it a step forwards or backwards?20:15
freemangordonszopin: well, trake n9 for example, AFAIK, the max stable OC is about 1.2-1.3 GHz20:16
RiDand for that to work they had to blow up a few N9s20:16
dos1yup, OC potential will be lower20:16
freemangordonszopin: you still don;t get it - it is not the CPU20:16
mashina*sarah mclaughlin music* Every day, neglected Internet Tablets are thrown and abused every day, left without necessities such as updates, internet, and proper care of USB ports. For as little as $120 every day, you can own and care for a forgotten NIT.20:16
freemangordonn900 with its limited RAM but cssu-thumb on it goes circles around n950 in terms of speed20:17
szopinfmg: for some tasks it is, compilation time can be reduced by some 30+% by OC to 115020:17
RiDspeaking of cssu-thumb, it hates rockbox. or vice versa20:17
freemangordonszopin: I am using my desktop to compile ;)20:17
RiDnot that i can flash it anymore20:17
qwazix"see their batteries, swollen from the lack of power..."20:17
* RiD looks at broken usb20:17
RiDwell i can, but its a hassle20:18
szopinfmg: I'm looking forward to 1gb rootfs20:18
freemangordonRiD: hmm? WTF is rockbox?20:18
RiDa rock box20:18
szopinscratch scratchbox20:18
RiDi think it's the only player that supports gapless playback20:18
freemangordonoooh, a box full of rock? how sweet :)20:18
RiDmaybe rhapsody also supports it too, dunno20:18
freemangordonand what is the problem?20:18
qwazixtoo heavy20:18
RiDqwazix rockbox? nah20:19
qwazixbut it's full of rock :P20:19
qwazix(never tried it, just joking)20:19
szopinhmmmm.... if we had drivers for better components would it still be a nogo?20:19
szopin(I'm thinking about a little help from jolla?)20:20
qwazix(tegra 3, tegra 3)20:20
RiDfmg: if i pause music and then leave it paused for a while, resuming it crashes the app20:20
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szopinor is it about time spent on hacks/optimization?20:20
dos1szopin: except drivers (an I don't mean just working drivers, I mean optimized drivers) there's also problem with quantity20:21
szopinoh wait, libhybris nvm20:21
freemangordonRiD: any chance to take a coredump?20:21
szopinthey will be using android drivers anyway20:21
freemangordonRiD: a backtrace - even better :)20:22
RiDyou tell me how to do it and i'll be happy to provide it20:23
RiDor point me to a page that explains how to do it20:23
szopininstall gdb20:24
szopinrun the app with it and strace once crashed20:24
RiDis it as easy as installing it from the repos (if its in the repos)?20:24
RiDsounds good20:24
szopinsudo apt-get gdb20:24
dos1install gdb*20:25
RiDoh fail20:25
RiDthat'll have to wait, no battery ._.20:25
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szopinso wait, N9's 3630 will cause problems with power management, how is 3730 going to avoid those?20:27
szopinalready well done moko out there?20:27
RiDfmg: if interested in trying out rockbox, i recommend you to use to make it a little more finger friendly20:27
dos1szopin: hmm?20:27
qwazixAny chance of fitting the N810 battery in Neo900?20:28
szopinsomeone said that N9's 3630 is going to cause power management issues20:28
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freemangordonRiD: szopin: installing gdb itself is not enough, one needs debug symbols too20:28
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dos1szopin: not really20:29
szopinRiD: install rockbox-dbg20:29
freemangordonRiD: I'll install that app and check what happens once I have time20:29
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szopindos1: why 3730 then?20:29
freemangordonszopin: not only, he needs libc6-dbg too, and whoever knows what else to get a sane backtrace20:29
RiDif you do it this week i'll give you 1 cent20:30
freemangordonoh, I';ll do it next week then so you'll give me 2 :P20:30
dos1szopin: it's not settled yet20:30
RiDdo it today and i'll give you a free game20:30
RiDfor free20:30
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dos1DocScrutinizer05 listed 3730 in poll, so I assumed this is some "safe choice" we are able to make20:31
szopindo it tomorrow and you'll get a free game for 5$20:31
dos1but there might be some other options too20:31
szopindos1: listening...20:31
RiDfmg: i'll be damned if the error does not happen to you20:32
dos1(but probably not too much given our small production runs and reluctance to diversing too much from GTA04 and N900)20:32
freemangordonRiD: we'll see20:32
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DocScrutinizer05hey, I#m just the hardware dude with a weird idea. And I know N900 binaries run on N9. Up to you (the fremantle porting task force) to evaluate if it's feasible20:34
szopinwouldn't call it weird20:35
szopinnatural more like it20:35
RiDwe're all natural after all20:36
szopinwish there were replacement n950's floating around20:36
dos1this whole initiative (GTA04, and now Neo900) is unique in the world20:36
dos1it might be a bit weird... but in very positive way :D20:36
szopinthere was a guy who tried to upgrade ram, haven't heard for a while so prob fail20:37
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RiDi heard he jumped from a bridge20:37
szopinthen there is freemantle and rebasing on top of debian20:37
RiDlegend says the n900 broke a car20:37
szopinall looking to have a totally nokia free to put on some device20:37
szopintoo bad G didn't open nexuses up20:38
RiDi would tolerate android if it wasn't that screwed20:38
RiDi usually play an icon guessing game to figure out what does what20:39
RiDand that back button, ugh20:39
Win7Macput N9 HW in E7 case, make it run sailfisch + android app compatibility and I'm all in20:39
RiDhow would sailfish look in landscape20:40
freemangordonWin7Mac: with capacitive screen?20:40
DocScrutinizer05well, according to Jolla E7 formfactor is soooooo out20:40
dos1Win7Mac: putting N9 hw in other case would mean that we need to manufacture N920:40
Win7MacN9s are still available20:41
dos1Win7Mac: and will small productions runs, price will be much higher20:41
szopinn9's are not that expensive20:41
dos1Win7Mac: but how do you want to modify them to put somewhere else?20:41
RiDn9 is only 704,03€ here20:41
RiDquite cheap if you ask me20:41
DocScrutinizer05and I wonder how you want to make them boot20:42
dos1Win7Mac: manually?20:42
Win7Macno clue20:42
RiDand that's with discount already applied20:42
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
DocScrutinizer05ask freemangordon about HS devices20:42
Win7Maccoderus has a fix for that20:42
dos1Win7Mac: yeah. There's no "why not just take this phone from there / and put it there in this case?"20:42
DocScrutinizer05a fix for HS?20:42
Win7Mac*for aegis20:42
freemangordonit is not the same20:43
dos1Win7Mac: we have to produce a board by ourselves20:43
dos1Win7Mac: but we don't have to produce a case, as we can for instance use N900's one20:43
dos1that's what Neo900 is about20:43
szopindos1: realistically though, how far can we go fremantle compatible in terms of cpu/ram/nand?20:43
dos1szopin: cpu/ram/nand? Feature wise, 100%?20:44
dos1power optimisation wide - no idea20:44
Win7Macjust throwing in my wishful thinking: N900 is not for me, E7/N9 is20:44
DocScrutinizer05as long as it's OMAP3 I think we're fine with SoC PM20:44
DocScrutinizer05peripherals are a whole new story20:45
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: there are slight differences afaik20:45
RiDhmh, what about fmtx, ir and all these little extras20:45
freemangordonbut we can backport the stuff from the Harm kernel20:45
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: might be, we'll handle them in kernel20:45
freemangordonooh, sure20:45
szopindos1: dual-core seems out of reach20:45
szopinwhat are the best specs we could get and be still fremantle compatible?20:46
freemangordonszopin: seems we just can't afford it20:46
szopinI know20:46
szopinin theory20:46
szopinit can be done?20:46
szopinno problems with power management?20:47
DocScrutinizer05we even have basically identical companion chip (GAYA TPS65951 vs 50)20:47
LjL-Alpsyou called it Neo900 now?20:47
szopinor does it include 5000bil$ to buy apple out?20:47
DocScrutinizer05which is much more relevant for PM20:47
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: it is not that simple, IMO the upstream kernel is missing power domain control20:48
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freemangordonor most of it20:48
DocScrutinizer05yep, that's why we use fremantle kernel (or even HARM kernel backported to 2.6.x ABI)20:48
RiDsomeone's a crazy nutfu_20:48
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szopinJust wondering what is the upper limit in fremantle compatible vs realistic possible. Seems different people have different priorities (ram/cpu/nand/IR/fmtx...)20:49
szopinso while there is enough enthusiasts to shell out 1000 euro on their dream device20:50
szopineveryone has a different dream20:50
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szopinso just wondering if we could compare theoretical top vs cost of each upgrade20:50
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szopinrpg game style, upgrade ram to 512 for 200$/XP20:51
szopinupgrade omap3 for...20:51
szopinetc... and get some feedback this way20:51
szopin50 people who indicated they would buy it for 300 tells us nothing20:52
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szopinso having 2 versions (say with batch of 200 and 500) with prices and poll like this would make more sense20:53
szopinomap3+512 - 600 euro (200), 700 euro (500), omap3 + 1gb 650 (200....20:54
szopinehh, prices wrong but the idea is clear i guess20:55
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DocScrutinizer05won't fly, we're happy if we can source complete BOM at all21:04
DocScrutinizer05no headroom for fancy options21:04
szopinif we see 2/3 going for 1gb upgrade rather than omap4 and willing to shell extra 200 for it...21:04
DocScrutinizer05also the difference in price is probably negligible21:04
szopinor the other way around, this is of course assuming there is wiggle space21:04
DocScrutinizer05it's for sure negligible when it comes to "omap4 won't happen since that is a whole new design" and we simply have no choice on the OMAP3 SoC we can source21:04
szopinthanks, was looking for that answer even though previously some people said binary compatible/would like to see fremantle behaving on dual-core21:04
RiDi've got the itch to buy another n90021:04
szopinstill had high hopes21:04
szopinso who said A15 is an option?21:04
szopinprobably shuttleworth21:04
RiDok wtf21:04
RiDbooster n90021:04
DocScrutinizer05look, it's often like "hey in two months Apple builds a new batch, so ask us after that batch is finished if we maybe got a handful surplus SoC from that run for you"  sth like 1000 SoC is usually nothing they serve you a cup of coffe when you come asking for such quantity21:04
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DocScrutinizer05szopin: OMAP4 means *we* need to do a whole new Neo900 design, and that's completely out of discussion for now21:04
RST38hDoc: So, the desperation among the faithful has reached the SoC-swappingpoint?21:04
szopinok, but batches of sammie s2 are no longer produced and they used omap421:04
szopinare these still out of reach?21:04
szopindoc: hw wise or driver/kernel wise? or both?21:04
DocScrutinizer05and kernel of course too21:04
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DocScrutinizer05please read - this is what we're going to use for Neo900 and we won't change much in all of that21:04
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RiDwhat do you guys do when you got the itch to buy another n900?21:11
dos1we start projects like Neo900 to justify it :)21:11
szopinhow much? what state is it in?21:11
qwazixDocScrutinizer05,  the only things that seem heavily outdated there is WLAN (g) and camera21:11
szopindoc: vga, optional fm transmitter...21:11
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szopin1.3 cam21:11
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szopinrs232? no usb?21:11
DocScrutinizer05szopin: we can fix "minor" little issues like adding an fm transmitter or a bq27200 charge gas gauge, but we won't change the basic design, and OMAP4 for example would need a completely new design from scratch21:11
dos1szopin: rs232 for debug; of course there's usb21:11
dos1even with true OTG21:11
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DocScrutinizer05see page 9 please!21:11
szopinlast time used rs in 1999 or some such21:11
szopinprobably to play doom1 no less21:11
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szopinfun times21:11
szopinbtw, just curious, didn't components get smaller?21:13
szopinas in: there will be left some space for extras?21:13
szopin(wireless charging, though not fan of it myself, nfc or somesuch?)21:13
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szopinor are we buying same gen components and it will be full?21:14
DocScrutinizer05and maybe when Nikolaus comes back from holiday tomorrow and we have a first look into thios whole thing, we find that the modem is too bulky to fit into the N900 case and we silently roll up the whole session21:14
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szopinsanta nikolaus will be dead21:14
szopinwith jolla going n9 keyless it was the last moment to try to get those 1000 orders21:15
szopin(then again wayland, might be too soon to call it)21:16
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: why a non-free license?21:16
szopinOMAP3 with 1gb ram I believe still would be worth 550-600...21:17
szopinthough 750 is an overkill21:17
DocScrutinizer05because we have no money to give away21:17
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: not sure how prohibiting people from using it commercially helps with that21:17
szopinis there any other way than cpu to improve performance?21:18
szopincache ddr666 ram or something?21:18
DocScrutinizer05Luke-Jr: this is NOT a FOSS project21:18
qwazixthe spec sheet says LED controller not tested21:18
szopinif we're stuck with omap3 getting those fastest with some benchmarks would help get support21:18
szopinpeople will like kengal whine for quad/dual core21:19
szopin(or me)21:19
szopinif we can get faster on ram side of things would be a good argument for extra euros21:19
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, mind elaborating on "This is not a FOSS project"?21:20
szopingsm chip is open?21:20
szopinwe're luckily not aiming at stallman phone21:21
DocScrutinizer05how to elaborate? GolDeliCo invested a 5digit EUR and a two digit person-months into GTA0421:21
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: lots of FOSS has far more invested21:21
DocScrutinizer05we most likely give a F*21:21
DocScrutinizer05you're free to do that, though21:22
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RiDfreemangordon: HL3 has tit physics21:22
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, not why, what rights do the users will have.21:22
Luke-Jrqwazix: the PDF has a clear license21:23
DocScrutinizer05you have the right to do with your property whatever you like21:23
qwazixLuke-Jr, thanks, I missed that21:23
DocScrutinizer05you get quite comprehensive documentation about absolutely everything21:23
DocScrutinizer05and you get usual warranty21:23
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: so the non-commercial clause only applies to the PCB information, not the usage of the product itself?21:23
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, sorry for the stupid question21:23
DocScrutinizer05what clause?21:24
Luke-Jrthe PDF states that commercial use is prohibited..?21:24
DocScrutinizer05the CC license is for the manual, not for the hardware21:25
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szopinrid: titphysics is so hl3, we'll have tit-for-that-physics21:25
DocScrutinizer05at least that's what i'd guess21:27
RiDas if saints row purple jigglity wigglity weapon wasn't enough21:27
DocScrutinizer05creative commons is about documents and other information goods, not about a piece of hardware usually21:27
DocScrutinizer05when you have a printed book with CC then the license is about the book's info, not about the paper21:28
Luke-Jroh, what kind of license would usually be used with hardware? O.o21:29
Luke-JrCopyright is what empowers the license. :p21:30
DocScrutinizer05you don't need a license to use an appliance21:30
DocScrutinizer05so frequently appliances and other hardware come with no special licence at all21:30
DocScrutinizer05thus Copyright laws apply21:31
qwazixdoes that mean I can RE them and sell copies of them?21:31
szopinexcept when you try to reverse engineer/jailbreak21:31
szopinbut afaik noone hunts homdemade hw RE21:31
szopinone other stupid thought i had...21:32
szopinelop, he cares not for fremantle/harmattan21:32
szopinso does current nokia21:32
szopinlicensing fremantle to neo90021:33
szopinwould make sense21:33
szopinundercutting competition (jolla is a competition when you have 3 percent)21:33
DocScrutinizer05fremantle is FOSS, except for a few blobs for which community got permission to re-use and redistribute21:33
szopinsure they dropped repo servers21:33
szopinoh ok, so those blobs are stopping omap4?21:34
Luke-Jrpfft, fremantle is like 40% FOSS IIRC; so basically non-free21:34
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Luke-Jrat least in terms of what actually is important21:36
DocScrutinizer05pffft define "fremantle"21:36
szopinthe idea was, get the source or license fremantle for something undercutting incoming xompetition21:36
Luke-Jrszopin: also, fremantle is obsolete. see harmattan21:36
szopinmore power to them letting it go21:36
szopinhi mr elop, would you like to kill some jolla support? then give us fremangtle sources so we can go dual-core21:36
DocScrutinizer05you should stop smoking that stuff ;-)21:36
szopinwe have hwkb, geeks will go definitely with us21:36
freemangordonor you'd better share it :P21:36
Luke-Jrszopin: what has hw kb!⁈21:36
* Luke-Jr pounces21:36
szopinand N900 shell with new guts21:37
Luke-JrI wonder if I can get new guts for N81021:37
Luke-Jrit had a nicer kb21:37
szopinif he cares for wp8 and competition from linux other than android, helping fremantle geeks makes sense21:38
qwazixwhere would the keyboard be connected on GTA04?21:38
DocScrutinizer05szopin: please stop it, won't happen, for reasons a bit too awkward to explain in full length here. Basically Nokia mustn't21:38
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szopinI was thinking of PR backlash if nokia would come in and stop us from using fremantle in connection with new hw21:39
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Luke-Jrszopin: none?21:39
szopinthey (and MS) care a LOT about PR21:39
Luke-Jrthere would be zero bad PR for Nokia21:39
DocScrutinizer05they basically CANNOT stop us from using fremantle however we like21:40
szopinImagine theverge and all other blogs saying: nokia spiteful, stops hobbyists from using its abandonware21:40
freemangordonqwazix: hmm? where it is connected now?21:40
DocScrutinizer05again, fremantle err maemo at large been donated to community21:40
qwazixfreemangordon, no idea21:40
szopinwp som weak they're afraid of once their hackers (shout developers, developers some more retired steve)21:40
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szopinit would be a pr disaster21:41
* freemangordon is looking at the schematics21:41
Win7MacDocScrutinizer05, when/were did that donation happen?21:41
dos1GTA04 right now doesn't have keyboard21:41
qwazixfreemangordon, I'm just asking because the current GTA04 wasn't meant to be used with hwkb21:41
dos1but I think there's some place you can connect one to21:42
DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: basically when Nokia offered you guys the contract you maybe still haven't signed21:42
qwazixdos1, rs232?21:42
dos1as some additional keyboard boards for 3D printed cases were evaluated21:42
Win7Macand AFAIK they won't21:43
DocScrutinizer05but de facto it happened years ago when we got allowance to redistribute the blobs21:43
szopindoc: fremantle is now community owned? what about closed packages? they can redistribute binary, but no go on source?21:43
DocScrutinizer05THEY?? **YOU**21:43
qwazixdos1, freemangordon, page 42 "There is room for a TCA8418 button keyboard controller option but it is not soldered."21:43
Luke-Jrif we don't have source, we don't have it.21:43
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dos1qwazix: yeah. but you can order one with it soldered21:44
DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: please elaborate!21:44
qwazixdos1, cool21:44
dos1(provided that there's enough demand to start new production batch at all)21:44
freemangordonqwazix: well, I guess DocScrutinizer05 and dr. whoever-he-was and his team have some stuff to do21:44
Win7MacWoody: "The last I heard, Nokia was back pedaling on a hand over in favor of licening21:45
Win7Macdue to "a conflict on giving up some intelectual propery found in other21:45
Win7Macsoftware" (MeeGo?)."21:45
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: you shouldn't waste your time reviewing GTA04 schematics. I told you they get adapted to more closely meet N90021:45
Win7Macthat was in response to the contract Rob drafted21:46
DocScrutinizer05At least that's _my_ plan for now, dunno what nikolaus will say about it21:46
freemangordonWin7Mac: nothing can stop neo900 to be distributed/sold with only hildon-desktop, HAM and repos set up21:47
* qwazix still thinks that maybe, if we find it hard to drum up support for N900 case Neo900, trying for E7 case might bring some additional support due to complete lack of proper QWERTY smartphones today. Even if it would be a little less perfect for maemo fans, (capacitive) it might bring outside backers and thus increase quantity (and maemo users)21:48
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DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: and that's going to stop community how?21:48
szopindroid 521:48
Win7Macprobably not at all21:48
szopindroid 5 is going to grab all that hwkb market saly21:49
DocScrutinizer05we have permission to redistribute blobs since early days of CSSU at least, if not longer21:49
qwazixszopin, Droid line has stopped being available this side of the pond since IIRC Droid 3, and all other qwerties are completely low end21:49
szopindroid 5 is coming21:49
szopinphoto leaks are abound21:49
DocScrutinizer05and Neo900 doesn't ship with an OS anyway21:49
szopinand specs are higher than middle21:49
Win7Macok, fine then go ahead, I won't buy but definetely support it21:50
qwazixdroid 5 is verizon only, and probably no intl version will come, just like D421:50
szopinwith jolla claiming they can their os on any hw in 24h...21:51
DocScrutinizer05golDeliCo is not Nokia with a 2500 noses in sourcecode21:51
szopinput their os*21:51
qwazixszopin, you need an open bootloader to do that21:51
qwazixand droids so far haven't got one21:51
szopinthough they claimed it before wayland, so not sure21:51
* DocScrutinizer05 notices a grumpy feeling coming up, due to too many nagging from various sources during last few hours21:51
dos1szopin: ask them to do that with Neo900 :)21:52
qwazixIt's *with* wayland that it's easy.21:52
szopinmoto wasn't google's for previous ones, no idea about nexus bootloaders though21:52
dos1szopin: locked21:52
szopinqwazix: oh ok, they claimed the 24h boot time before wayland announcement, thought it would cause more headaches than not21:53
dos1well, unlockable, but not replacable21:53
szopindocs: sorry21:53
szopindocs: just the idea is so awesome i got a lot of questions21:53
LjL-Alps_what takes 24 hours to boot? O.o21:54
qwazixszopin, previous droids couldn't even get a new kernel21:54
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szopinqwazix: yeah, I've seen, even droid 3 on froyo21:54
qwazixLjL-Alps, putting sailfish on an arbitrary Android device21:54
qwazixTheir claim21:55
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: sure, they re-use RIL21:55
DocScrutinizer05and the GPU drivers as well aiui21:56
qwazixyep, that's what I understand too21:56
szopinhmmm... did anyone do comparisons in speed libhybris vs native though?21:56
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szopinif it turns out 50% slowdown jolla is going to need octa cores just like android :/21:56
DocScrutinizer05it's kinda of a chroot with sailfish in it running under android, just that you do a pivot-root then ;-D21:57
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qwazixszopin, no, but videos of nemo on lowend hardware seem quite snappy21:57
DocScrutinizer05my wild guess21:57
szopinany 3d cube gl fps comparison?21:57
szopinthis could kill jolla if performance is bogged down21:58
szopinthey'll go in a race they cannot win21:58
DocScrutinizer05Jolla dropped off my shelf of intriguing stuff when I learned about them using wayland22:00
DocScrutinizer05"to allow full-HD video" LOLWUT?!22:00
szopinsame here, expecting a huge letdown when trying to compile things on device22:01
szopinof course in 3 years everything will be wayland...22:01
DocScrutinizer05no tmy desktop22:01
szopinbut then jolla is going to be lik n900 today22:01
szopinok, one last thing...22:02
DocScrutinizer05and I doubt xev will be obsoleted by wev then22:02
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, AIUI from here there's no chroot22:02
szopinwhat about those 2-3 devices based on intel?22:02
qwazixjust a folder with the android drivers22:02
DocScrutinizer05sure, not really22:02
szopinwould that make it more likely for fremantle compatibility?22:02
DocScrutinizer05but that's how they base on all the android stuff I guess22:03
szopinall packages are in arm and 3222:03
DocScrutinizer05create enough of an android environment (kernel domain) to make the drivers work, then put a standard kernel undor/over/aside to this22:03
szopin(both in maemo and android)22:04
szopinwould that help in any way?22:04
szopinwith intel standard cpu bluez is an option22:05
szopinso the whole dalvik can go suck an ik22:05
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, what is it that you love about X?22:05
* DocScrutinizer05 feels terribly exhausted, Probably all serotonin tanks are empty now after ~36h of euphoria22:05
qwazixbecause from what I read I can't wait for distros to switch to wayland22:05
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: the fact that there is a knowledge base, tools, and a zillion of apps basing on it22:06
szopinsure atom is not there yet, but anandtech was very positve about next gen intels22:06
szopindocscrutinizer: get two valiums and a gram of coke and euphoria will be back22:06
qwazixszopin, those few intel devices have powervr graphics22:06
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qwazixi.e. no gpu drivers for linux22:07
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szopinas n90022:07
qwazixmuch newer22:07
qwazixI doubt the same driver would work22:07
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: figure I want to make my 14 mouse buttons emit arbitrary keystroke macros under wayland22:07
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, :nod:22:07
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: what about flash memory? are there any plans for internal flash besides onenand?22:07
DocScrutinizer05good question, I dunno22:08
szopin1 gb of nand and sd22:08
szopinno emmc22:08
DocScrutinizer05in GTA04!!!!22:08
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: guess who asked about the camera :P22:08
freemangordonhow expensive would be to add 16GB? any idea?22:09
DocScrutinizer05some 20orso22:09
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, I don't know about that, but I hear multiscreen finally works!22:09
szopingta04 on the page you linked in first post has 512/512/1gb22:09
qwazixbecause under X I've got all kinds of problems...22:09
freemangordonoh, make them 32 then :D22:09
szopinprobably a formatting nug22:09
ShadowJKWould be cool with a modern emmc too22:09
ShadowJKeven if it'd "still" be 32g22:10
szopinget a new sdhc card and it will be faster22:10
szopinfor sequential reads at least22:10
freemangordonShadowJK: with a slot for uSD even 16 would be just fine22:10
DocScrutinizer05szopin: goldelico was able to eventually source a better SoC with 1GB of NAND22:10
szopin(700mb from emmc copy >> from sdhc)22:10
DocScrutinizer05first GTA04 had 512MB22:10
szopinin time, new sd are faster22:11
ShadowJKszopin; yeah I mean there are emmcs now that are better suited for multitasking operarting systems :)22:11
freemangordonI guess no UHS, ain't?22:11
szopinshadow: sure, but N900 emmc sucks22:11
freemangordonszopin: what?!?22:11
szopinhaven't made full benchmarks but new sammie sd gets good speeds even on random readwrites22:12
freemangordonyou have no clue, really22:12
ShadowJKN900 emmc is like a very fast SD at its time22:12
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szopinfmg: was testing copying some random movie, from my 32gb card was some 15% faster than emmc22:12
freemangordonszopin: I have one of those, it is still slightly slower than emmc22:12
szopinno idea why, but here my card was faster22:13
ShadowJKThe thing about 2008-2009 era sd/emmc, is that they don't tolerate random writes at all22:13
DocScrutinizer05emmc is 8bit interface, sd is 4 bit, no?22:13
freemangordonszopin: what benchmark? connected via mass storage to the pc?22:13
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: :nod:22:13
qwazixszopin, because you were doing sequential read22:13
szopinit's a card that gets >100kb/s on random readwrites though22:13
szopinusb to pc22:13
ShadowJKWhereas some chips today will have a small write cache to deal with it22:13
szopinjust copy file over22:13
ShadowJKIt's practically "impossible" to get exclusive access to the emmc for proper benchmarking22:14
ShadowJKwhereas nothing uses the uSD at all normally22:14
szopinwas "researching" for a couple of days, the 10MBit is only when writing on empty card22:14
ShadowJKSo usb to pc and similar tests aren't fair22:15
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qwazixShadowJK, isn't emmc accessible in ACT_DEAD?22:15
szopinbut on copying a dir with 500+ files it was also giving me better perf22:15
qwazixthat wouldn't be almost exclusive?22:15
ShadowJKIf swap is on, or /home mounted, it's not22:15
dos1I think one could run some alternative OS like SHR from SD22:15
freemangordondos1: on n900?22:16
szopinsure, but use case trumps it... but wait also booting ubuntu was a breeze22:16
ShadowJKSmall files perf would be better on a good modern card, obviously22:16
dos1freemangordon: yup22:16
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: could you try to push for a vote of a council majority on donating a device to Nikolaus?22:16
szopinwhile others were claimin it takes ages22:16
freemangordondos1: I think I still kepp ubuntu 12.04 image somewhere ;)22:16
qwazixI don't know how ACT_DEAD deals with swap and /home, I just remember plugging the N900 to pc while off and having mass storage access.22:16
szopinnew sd cards can really stomp on old ones in terms of speed22:16
ShadowJKAnyway, this was my original point, that it would be nice to have a modern emmc, with the logstructured slc write cache, and trim support.22:17
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freemangordonqwazix: this was disabled in PR1.222:17
DocScrutinizer05check runlevels22:17
szopinand compression on rootfs22:17
freemangordonfor security reasons, as you're not asked for lock code22:17
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, if I count as council majority you have it right now. Otherwise there's little I can do. Meetings haven't been really productive lately22:17
ShadowJKrootfs isn't on emmc22:17
qwazixfreemangordon, rly? That's how often I use mass storage :P22:17
szopin(it's a sucky compression btw, just checked my 198mb re in fact 320)22:17
ShadowJKProbably lzop22:18
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: well, we need one more vote aiui22:18
freemangordonszopin: and this is the rest of the storry, the start being the swap ;)22:18
szopin1gb should be enough22:18
szopinfmg: we could uncompress rootfs?22:18
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: fwiw, i am +1 on donating the device too...22:19
DocScrutinizer05so we're done. Thanks22:19
freemangordonszopin: that is why I insist A8 even running on 600 MHz is just fine22:19
thedead1440btw haven't been this curious in a long time :)22:19
freemangordonszopin: sure we can22:19
szopinsorry, yoda placement22:19
szopincould we?*22:19
freemangordonif we have enough rootfs scpce22:19
szopinon current N900?22:20
qwazixfreemangordon, do we really need rootfs? Harmattan seems to go along fine while installed in emmc22:20
Win7MacDocScrutinizer05, can't you just send him 1 of your 5 devices as a loan?22:20
freemangordoncan't remember exactly, see cssu-thumb thread22:20
szopinoptifying as much as we... oh fukc it, opt is slower22:20
freemangordonszopin: no, it is not22:20
DocScrutinizer05I won't loan devices to get them disassembled22:20
DocScrutinizer05I also don't loan my GF22:20
szopinI can loan one22:20
szopinif I get neo900 in return sure22:21
freemangordonopt is not slower than rootfs, at least not much22:21
Win7MacI (as treasurer) feel kind of hijacked by GTA project22:21
thedead1440Win7Mac: what do you mean?22:21
szopinthan you claim emmc not so slower than nand22:21
freemangordonWin7Mac: what?22:21
DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: I however would forward one of my devices to him and get a replacement for my shelf later22:21
szopinor rather emmcc not so much slower than nand iqith sucky compression22:21
Win7Maci will not stand in the way of aany majority22:22
ShadowJKI wouldn't want rootfs on emmc, atleast not if the emmc is as primitive as the one in n900. Writes from things like fennec can keep emmc busy for 10s of seconds at a time, during which read access to /opt suffers 1000+ ms latencies :)22:22
dos1DocScrutinizer05: so you'll send him your GF to get new one later? ;)22:22
freemangordonthis is the community spirit :P22:22
qwazixNokia thought NAND was so much better that they developed a whole new filesystem for it, but then ditched it in the next gen.22:22
szopinthis is a ram problem is a big way, try copying 250mb+ file22:22
SpeedEvilqwazix: they're right.22:23
ShadowJKThe availability of nand got worse22:23
Win7Maccool project, definetely deserves HiFo support! just not sure about the donations22:23
szopinafter ram available n900 slows to a halt22:23
SpeedEvilqwazix: the problem is that nobody sells 32gb nand22:23
freemangordonqwazix: if we run NAND uncompressed it will be much better IMO22:23
qwazixthe N9 also has NAND which is unused IIRC22:23
thedead1440Win7Mac: one device is not a big deal considering the amount rob was considering wasting for $random solutions when deciding on hosting and not much of a fuss being made at that time22:23
freemangordonShadowJK: what about using NAND as swap?22:24
ShadowJKszopin; well it starts using swap, which when mixed in with the copy slows things down alot. In general the emmc slows down to like 100kB/sec if subjected to more than a few sequential streams, or a single random write stream22:24
freemangordonfor how long will it last?22:24
qwazixfreemangordon, I'm not exactly sure, but I was talking with a guy that was in the team that designed that thing, and he said that ubifs was needed for some reason22:24
ShadowJKfreemangordon; with rolling sequential write access, years22:24
qwazix(no hardware wear-levelling or something)22:24
DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: I will inform Nikolaus, so he can remember when it's coming to handing out Neo900 prototypes22:25
ShadowJKThat's true for the onenand22:25
freemangordonShadowJK: so, we can stay with 512 RAM, swap on NAND and root on eMMC, right?22:25
ShadowJKNo possibility of 1G?22:25
freemangordonShadowJK: iiuc22:25
Win7MacDoc, that's what I'm talking about: exchange a set, you'll be 1st tester anyway...22:25
ShadowJKaw :(22:26
freemangordonbut I guess it is still to be decided22:26
ShadowJKIf it's a good emmc22:26
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freemangordonShadowJK: I am trying to count all the sane possibilities22:26
ShadowJKBut unless you're buying 100kunits, they wont tell you anything about it except its capacity22:26
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Win7MacIt's just that I'd be happier if we could handle this without donATIONS: but as i said, i won't hinder anything22:27
DocScrutinizer05Win7Mac: that's not how i work. I know my folks and have good relations to them22:27
Win7Macyeah, me too ;)22:28
DocScrutinizer05sth board never wrapped their head around, when it came to moving server to IPHH for example22:28
ShadowJKis this donation of a device from "maemo" to "openmoko"?22:28
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qwazixIf sd's can be almost as fast as emmc, why not use the space and just go dual-sd?22:28
qwazixone could even be soldered on22:28
DocScrutinizer05and on a sidenote: board is not up to decide about donations, unless they are obviously rogue or abusive22:29
freemangordonqwazix: no need for dual uSD, given the capacity of the modern cards22:29
DocScrutinizer05it council to decide22:29
ShadowJKI'd like dual22:29
dos1ShadowJK: "Maemo community donates N900 device to Openmoko community", tomorrow on /.22:29
qwazixfreemangordon, there is. Swappability22:29
ShadowJKjust to partition off the abusive apps22:29
freemangordonoh, I see22:30
ShadowJK(fennec, gpodder's sql databases, etc...)22:30
szopinI can donate N900 and I'm sure alot otherpeople can22:30
freemangordonyeah, got it22:30
szopinthere was an offer already in the thread22:30
Win7Macok, before this gets ridiculous: I'll happily sign the check if needed22:30
ShadowJKI was just wondering what the treasurer talk was about22:30
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szopinJust wondering why it is easier*/faster for me to copy a 700mb file from sd than emmc22:30
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Win7Macbut please don't blame me for looking after *our* money22:30
szopinthey do"mt get fragmented, so why?22:30
ShadowJKszopin; because the emmc gets interrupted by write activity22:31
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ShadowJK/home and swap22:31
RiDstupd net22:31
szopinshadow: same conditions, no aptget in background, copy movie fromemmc takes longer than from sd22:32
ShadowJKIf you move swap to uSD, and read from or write to emmc, you get pretty nice speeds.22:32
szopinno write activity afaik on borth22:32
freemangordonszopin: there is always somethin touching the emmc22:32
dos1szopin: swapoff -a22:32
szopinin that 5 minutes?22:32
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ShadowJKswapoff works as long as no apps needing anything from /opt are active22:33
freemangordonShadowJK: also, I m not sure vfat on emmc doesn;t suffer from fragmentation :)22:33
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szopinit does22:33
szopinit's fat22:33
DocScrutinizer05how is swapoff related to /opt?22:33
ShadowJKfreemangordon; yeah but it's not as evil as ext3 on emmc22:33
szopinmy sd is ext3 btw22:34
szopinso maybe here is speed?22:34
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; as a means to prevent IO to emmc22:34
DocScrutinizer05I still don't see it22:34
ShadowJKvfat is like 3-4 times less computational load for emmc/sd22:35
szopinshouldn't impact opt... need gto check read/write opt svs sd22:35
freemangordonShadowJK: but it is vfat, so most probably it is fragmented all over the place22:35
DocScrutinizer05to get issues with /opt you need to unmount or otherwise block the partitoon where /opt lives. Unrelated to swap which is a whole different partition22:35
ShadowJKfreemangordon; not too badly, I've checked from time to time as I often run at 99percent use on MyDocs...22:36
ShadowJKfreemangordon; linux seems to allocate stuff slightly smarter than win9x back in the day22:36
szopinthe one thing that totally sells me to neo900 is: we can fix the bad ideas nokians had (256mb of rootfs etc)22:36
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freemangordonszopin: I still think it was decided that way because nokians were planning to use thumb222:37
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ShadowJKszopin; me on the other hand like having as many storage devices as possible so the load can be spread out :)22:38
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szopinok, I admit I didn't have time yet to try thumb cssu22:38
ShadowJKMy Asus android tablet is, when loading webpages, limited by emmc I/O more than half the time. All 4 cores idle waiting for IO..22:38
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freemangordonszopin: it shaves about 35MB of executable code, while only about 5% of the code is recompiled22:39
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ShadowJKIt's the biggest bottleneck on almost all current smartphones really.22:39
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szopinthis might sell me to omap3 with "just" ram increaase22:39
szopinfmg: 35mb free rootfs you mean?22:40
freemangordonI admit most of that is QT, but still, imagine if everything was thumb2-compiled22:40
freemangordon35MB down I mean, Qt is on /opt22:40
szopinwe need elop22:41
freemangordonShadowJK: wait, doesn;t kernel cache the stuff?22:41
szopinto drop all maemo ownership and give us code, thumb2 all that22:41
qwazixfreemangordon, what makes you think they were planning to use thumb? modest bug?22:41
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freemangordonqwazix: no, the size of RAM/onenand22:42
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szopinlol, those are time limitations, remind yourself about 200922:42
szopinand imagine us discussing octa cores22:42
ShadowJKfreemangordon; fsync and fflush is the great killer.. databases loves to use those.. and everything uses databases these days.22:42
freemangordonand they hit the omap bug too late to change anything but the compiler flags22:42
freemangordonShadowJK: hmm, yeah, makes sense22:43
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qwazixfreemangordon, possible, and they forgot to change it for modest (or was it tinymail?)22:43
freemangordonqwazix: no, it was MohammadAG :D22:43
qwazixreally? I thought that modest was crashing since PR1.022:43
freemangordonqwazix: no22:44
qwazixIn fact I was pretty sure about that22:44
qwazixYou're probably right22:44
freemangordonthe only thig that is thumb-compiled is facebook-something, and it is in OVI store22:44
ShadowJKthat's one piece of sw that's never crashed on me22:44
freemangordonShadowJK: you don;t have it installed?22:44
qwazixThat couldn't be it, my only interaction with facebook-something was uninstalling the launcher22:45
ShadowJKI use it daily22:45
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* qwazix wonders why people bash modest so angrily22:45
freemangordonShadowJK: do readelf -A on /opt/.../libfacebook-something.so22:46
ShadowJKI meant modest22:46
szopingmail stopped working, whether it's tinymail bug or modest, who cares, modest sucks22:46
thedead1440qwazix: because the very moment you require it urgently, it will hang up on you at that time; just like fennix ;)22:46
qwazixI find it much better than those thin crap clients that only search through the last 30 mails on modern smartphones22:46
freemangordonqwazix: mag compiled it by mistake with -mthumb in one of the cssu versions, as Maemo SDK VM comes with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=...,thumb,... by default22:47
freemangordonszopin: fized in CSSU ;)22:47
freemangordonfixed even22:47
qwazixthedead1440, I have fallen back to modest after fenix crashed on me countless times and it never failed me, just a bit slow22:47
RiDthere's a modest alternative?!22:47
RiDhonestly modest only crashed on me once, other times its just a bit slow like qwazix says22:48
szopinfmg: I know, my daily handset is CSUU broken somehow so I'm few releases backwards, works fine on the other22:48
thedead1440ya that slow part; when you really need that email, modest will take forever to load. nearly threw my n900 in a fit of anger once due to this reason :)22:48
ShadowJKimages load slow for me22:48
RiDmicrob is terrible on big images22:49
SAiFi dont think so22:49
RiDopen something 1920x1080 or bigger22:50
RiDit will die and beg you to stop22:50
RiDblack 5kb image does not count22:50
freemangordonRiD: it is the lack of RAM that makes it slow ;)22:50
qwazixRiD, "microb reboots the phone at big images" <-- there I fixed it22:50
RiDehh sorry it does not reboot my phone22:50
szopinnah 4000x... is a pain22:50
RiDszopin opera handles it a little better22:50
szopin1920x works quite alright (805mhz at least)22:50
ShadowJKThe limit is more at 3000x... for me22:50
RiDthough if you abuse it, it'll eventually crash or slow down like a turtle22:50
ShadowJK1920 is trivial22:51
RiDszopin maybe you are right22:51
ShadowJKI open that on N80022:51
RiDstill, even at these images sometimes zooming on them etc is a bit screwed22:51
ShadowJK(that wasnt a typo)22:51
RiDit takes a long time to redraw the image22:51
RiDnot long as in 30 seconds but you know :(22:51
szopinyeah, there is a looot that could be fixed in microb22:51
szopinlower part of the page reappearing for few multiseconds when scrolling down22:52
RiDi switch from opera and microb all day22:52
szopinthis is so annoying22:52
szopinbut... even neo900 won't fix it22:52
RiDsomething with big images, opera. Or something with heavy scripts, opera also tends to be the winner. On the other side, microb just feels better and more friendly22:52
RiDbrowsing the forums for example is uncomfortable on opera, but fine on microb22:53
szopinmouse mode trumps all22:53
szopinI so wish they opened this22:53
szopintmo works great22:53
szopinopenpandora forums... oh jeez22:53
RiDmeh, me dislike22:54
szopinreddit with all the time: stop script/wait...22:54
szopinthere's a lot of room for improvement, sadly with mouse mode closed we're pretty much stuck22:55
szopinand it works flash so nicely.... one of the reasons I'm looking for fremanlte22:55
RiDi remember when flash was a "punch" line to sell android22:56
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RiDno longer supported...22:56
szopinwell even desktop linux is closed for flash...22:56
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SAiF0an opencl webpage, will it open on n900
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RiDoh my gosh 3d effects23:00
RiDthis is the future of the web23:00
RiD3D moving and tilting text23:00
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DocScrutinizer05I call it a day23:01
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thedead1440o/ see ya doc23:06
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szopinwhere is bootloader defined?23:13
szopin(as in closed vs open)23:13
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szopinjust noticed galaxy A has same cpu/gpu but Qgb ram23:14
szopinif same board is still in prod we could have step 1: galaxy A, same old shit, just 1gb ram23:15
szopinvs 3730+23:15
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_ade_freemangordon: any clue on this (
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