IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2013-07-31

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DocScrutinizer05a short update for those wondering what's going on with all our woes on autobuilder|repo-management|administrative_maintenance:02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:29:53] <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: see /usr/share/php/midcom/lib/midcom/core/querybuilder.php line260 ==>02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:30:16] <DocScrutinizer05>         /* Force read only mode when in anonymous mode */02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:30:16] <DocScrutinizer05>         if (!$_MIDCOM->auth->is_valid_user())02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:30:16] <DocScrutinizer05>         {02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:30:16] <DocScrutinizer05>             $this->toggle_read_only(true);02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:30:16] <DocScrutinizer05>         }02:04
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-31 00:30:44] <DocScrutinizer05> comment out dat shite, done!02:04
bef0rdwon't that allow anonymous users to "write" something?02:06
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DocScrutinizer05this little "optimization" crept in with some install of midgard packages between Dec 2012 and may of this year, and rendered broken an estimated 50..75% of the cronjobs that do all the updates of karma, planet, news, package-interface, repo, younameit02:07
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DocScrutinizer05no, since normal authentication still applies02:09
DocScrutinizer05this is just an optimization done to db-objects (queries) that are r/o and thus you can't change their properties/values/whatever-the-name. It does NOT control if you can or can not do an update to db02:11
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DocScrutinizer05it's kind like a "const" statement in c02:12
DocScrutinizer05according to midgard devels it's been done to reduce memory consumption02:13
DocScrutinizer05see for example /lib/midcom/core/querybuilder.php02:14
DocScrutinizer05(disclaimer: I have NFC about PHP)02:14
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bef0rdah ok, I see some functions there to check privileges02:15
DocScrutinizer05...and I hope that will _never_ ever have to change. I don't want to touch that stuff with a 15ft pole02:15
DocScrutinizer05I've been tackling this since quite some time now02:19
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:16:56] <mashiara> that warning comes from some legacy code trying to rewrite an ISO datetime to UNIX timestamp directly to an object02:19
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:17:15] <mashiara> but if there is no used logged in objects are returned as read-only as this will increase performance02:19
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:17:30] <mashiara> said legacy code is likely in the templates somewhere02:19
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DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 13:01:49] <DocScrutinizer05> mashiara: this is very first line of that kind that shows up in www VM maemo_http_error.log:02:19
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 13:01:53] <DocScrutinizer05> [Fri Dec 28 09:31:26 2012] [error] [client] PHP Warning:  (pid:20625): Can not write property. Object in read only mode in /usr/share/php/midcom/lib/midcom/core/dbaobject.php02:19
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:55:02] <mashiara> it's old code trying to do things now forbidden issue02:21
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:55:33] <mashiara> say we have $object->start property which contains ISO datetime as string02:21
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:55:51] <mashiara> but we want to format it with date, in a few places02:21
DocScrutinizer05[2013-07-10 15:56:12] <mashiara> the clever template coder back in the day did $object->start = strtotime($object->start);02:21
DocScrutinizer05this bites us on a multitude of levels02:22
DocScrutinizer05commenting out just one line might put from - say - 30% working to 98% working02:23
DocScrutinizer05I mean, all that stuff worked once, some year plus change ago02:24
DocScrutinizer05broke down during migration#1 basically02:25
DocScrutinizer05obviously due to some slightly newer midgard version got installed on the interim infra02:26
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DocScrutinizer05I first time since March see a chance to get back to old shape, maybe even til end of this week02:31
DocScrutinizer05thanks to freemangordon and his incredible energy investigating this particular issue02:32
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DocScrutinizer05oooh, on a sidenote, I deleted that rogue x11-data_withxdg package from repo for good, and freemangordon pushed repo-management to rebuild Packages.gz - so as a result this issue got solved today as well02:34
DocScrutinizer05autobuilder should work again as much as it did before 19th of this month02:35
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userare you friggin kidding me04:52
userjust started up phone04:52
usergot some issues with some custom made scripts not working04:53
userthe reason?04:53
userls: cannot access fixdate: Stale NFS file handle04:53
useroh and04:54
robbiethe1ststale nfs file handle, at least on mine, means filesystem corruption04:54
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FIQ|n900yes I know04:54
FIQ|n900the thing is04:54
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FIQ|n900I already recovered the file system from an issue like this04:55
FIQ|n900last week04:55
robbiethe1stIt seems that whenever my N900 crashes, the optfs goes wonky04:56
FIQ|n900will reboot and attempt to solve this with BM *again*04:56
FIQ|n900hopefully it doesn't ruin the fs this time04:56
robbiethe1stAny damage is already done at this point04:56
FIQ|n900what do you mean?04:57
robbiethe1stThe fact that it said 'stale nfs handle' means that that file is, more or less, gone04:57
FIQ|n900this time it was definitely not caused by a hard reboot04:57
FIQ|n900it might have been last time04:57
robbiethe1stfdisk can probably fix the rest, but you probably won't get the file back04:58
FIQ|n900oh but I have a backup of that file04:58
robbiethe1stYeah, that's the only way04:58
FIQ|n900my problem is mainly actually solving it with fsck04:58
FIQ|n900last time I fsck-ed optfs04:58
FIQ|n900it destroyed the file system somehow04:58
robbiethe1stYeah, happens to me too04:58
robbiethe1stBest thing is to back it up, then restore04:58
FIQ|n900and e2fs claimed I was being a bonehead for having it mounted (it wasn't)04:58
robbiethe1stpart of the restore is a complete FS wipe/repartition in BM04:59
FIQ|n900you're the author of bm, right?04:59
FIQ|n900just curious, will creation of optfs backup actually work on a corrupted file system?05:00
robbiethe1stIt'll try.05:00
FIQ|n900otherwise I'll have to tar it manually with tar (that worked last time)05:00
robbiethe1stIf it's mountable, it'll mount and backup whatever files are there05:00
robbiethe1stConsidering it does exactly that, it should do as well as you can05:00
FIQ|n900will backup05:00
FIQ|n900try to fsck05:01
FIQ|n900if fsck fail, restore optfs only05:01
robbiethe1stHeck, you can restore your old optfs backup, if you haven't installed too many programs since05:01
FIQ|n900that's true05:02
FIQ|n900but then I have to deal with the application desynchs I had to deal with before05:02
FIQ|n900oh well, at least I know *which* broke now05:02
FIQ|n900instead of discovering them as I go lol05:02
FIQ|n900see you05:02
robbiethe1stbtw, apt-get install --reinstall helps with that05:02
FIQ|n900yeah I know05:03
FIQ|n900did that a lot last optfs restore (didn't restore rootfs because I lacked rootfs for the right kernel)05:03
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DocScrutinizer05robbiethe1st: there's a pretty fuzzy naming around BM05:13
DocScrutinizer05optfs is not existing05:13
DocScrutinizer05I suggest to clearly name either the partition or the mountpoint05:14
robbiethe1stUh... huh?05:14
DocScrutinizer05so mmcblk0p2, or /home05:15
DocScrutinizer05optfs is no term you can actually find anywhere in an docs, and it suggests that maybe only /opt is saved which probably(!?) is incorrect05:16
DocScrutinizer05I don't need to explain that /opt is a bindmount05:17
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DocScrutinizer05robbiethe1st: you were a bit ambiguous if you'd appreciate a devel device or not. I'd like to make this happen anyway unless you say you do not accept any such support05:21
robbiethe1stOh, I thought I said 'yes'05:24
robbiethe1stLet me edit my post slightly05:25
robbiethe1stMust have been slightly tired05:26
robbiethe1st(well, really tired. which is typical)05:26
DocScrutinizer05I'm also a bit tired right now, which is completely atypic for me, but maybe related to the percieved great achievement in bugfixing today05:27
DocScrutinizer05feels good to smash the bug05:28
DocScrutinizer05well, right now we got it just sitting in the bucket, smashing happens tomorrow ;-D05:28
DocScrutinizer05robbiethe1st: I just checked your edit, and I think it's just more confusing XD05:33
DocScrutinizer05maybe get some sleep first ?05:34
robbiethe1stHow do I say05:34
robbiethe1st"yeah, i'm poor, I'll take it" but be very polite and humble about it05:34
DocScrutinizer05lemme help you out ;-)05:35
GeneralAntilles"HELL YEAH! MINE MINE MINE MINE!!"05:37
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robbiethe1stGeneralAntilles, might be what I'm thinking, but I'd not say it05:47
robbiethe1stCause, you know, I at least /pretend/ to be humble. Because polite05:48
GeneralAntillesWhatever, man.05:52
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AndrewX192hm... I can't enter my lock code (despite cracking it) on a device that hasn't been turned on in a few months - ideas?07:23
AndrewX192(I can't reflash since the USB port is dead)07:23
AndrewX192I'm in BackupMenu currently07:24
SAiFhmm.. anyone?07:30
psycho_oreosIf you have also tried the default lock code which also fails (there should be two types) then you are probably better off at getting that USB port fixed.07:34
AndrewX19212345? doesn't work07:36
AndrewX192It's like /dev/mtd1 is corrupt.. if I look at the whole thing I see my lock code (hashed) where I can crack it, and it's what it's supposed to be07:37
AndrewX192but if I use "getlockcode" it returns root::07:37
psycho_oreosTry 0000007:37
AndrewX192that doesn't work either07:38
AndrewX192I might as well chroot it or something07:39
AndrewX192stupid spams a lot though07:39
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psycho_oreosIdeally it would be wise to get that USB port fixed.07:56
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kerioFIQ: obligatory protip: don't use the stock fsck, it's shit08:39
kerioeither install an updated version, or work on a recent linux install on a computer08:39
kerioand to avoid any flash wonkiness, dd the whole partition, fsck it, copy the data, then rebuild the partition on the n900 and copy the data back08:40
SAiFwhat does this mean to an ordinary user like me?08:47
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kerioSAiF: keep calm and reflash09:02
kerioalso, wtf09:02
kerioif you're an ordinary user, why are you using a n90009:03
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SAiFI am just ordinary user, but I wish to become like you, and thats why I am listening to this channel09:07
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SAiFand I am always calm, english as a second language, I just  dont know emotions in my sentences, I just only know the meanings,09:10
SAiFsorry, if I sounded rude.09:10
SAiFkerio:  :)09:11
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psycho_oreosAn ordinary user still using N900? that's rare, the majority would have probably migrated to some other software leaving mainly the rest behind.09:44
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joga? migrated to other software?09:48
psycho_oreos*ahem* as in using other <insert_some_other_phone_phablet_tablet_etc_OS_here>.09:49
jogaI will, when someone releases a phone that's even half of n90009:49
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jogapreferably the hw keyboard half09:50
jogaI own an android tablet and they're such toys in comparison09:50
psycho_oreosI think motorola does produce some android phones with qwerty keyboard. Albeit usually old and rare.09:51
jogajust the hw keyboard is not really enough, it's the bare minimum09:52
jogaand sadly I don't even trust android enough to do anything serious with it, like using ssh :p09:52
psycho_oreosA few of us I guess are thinking of the same thing as well.. to migrate would be something at least half of what maemo was. Inevitably trend won't head that way in the foreseeable future.09:54
jogaso obvious solution is to use n900 until it breaks09:54
* joga tries to be very gentle with it ;p09:54
psycho_oreosand/or keep more copies of N900 :)09:54
jogayeah, wish I had had spare money when some used ones were still available for cheap, would have bought like 5 or something09:55
psycho_oreosYou might still be able to obtain more, the question lies invariably on availability and/or the quality. These days I hear more and more stories of owners with broken N900 USB ports.09:57
jogayeah, I've been fortunate (or careful enough) to be spared of that fate09:57
psycho_oreosSame here except I don't think that is the only place to be aware of. Just recently I heard an owner of (what is now very much a) dead N800, I guess it will be matter of time too for N900's turn.09:59
psycho_oreoss/much a)/much) a/10:00
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: Same here except I don't think that is the only place to be aware of. Just recently I heard an owner of (what is now very much) a dead N800, I guess it will be matter of time too for N900's turn.10:00
jogaheh my n800 is still fine10:00
* psycho_oreos shrugs I've only managed to get into the scene was matter of pure coincidential values with N900. Never knew about the rest of the maemo family.10:01
psycho_oreosRather before getting introduced to N900 was when I never heard of maemo.10:03
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SAiFHas anybody here seen this project?
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drathirbrolin_empey: sadly mine isnt on warranty, need to find repair place, but if i good saw in poland is person knowing about that, maybe get me some tips...11:21
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keriono powersaving on wifi is ridiculous13:00
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keriodrains my battery dry13:01
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edheldilpsycho_oreos:  add to it owners with broken GSM modem13:10
Lava_Croftoh the joy of flashing android crap13:13
psycho_oreosedheldil, not as many as those with broken USB ports but granted yes. There are also owners with broken bits and pieces :) I heard maybe a few with minijack playing up along with one that has a dead eMMC. Also a fair few would be affected with that faulty built-in cell battery.13:14
kerionobody has a working bupba13:14
infobotmethinks bupbat is use the capacitive type, LiIon are breaking during 12 months, or, or
jpinxn900's don't seem to have a date of manufacture anywhere13:15
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psycho_oreosjpinx, they sort of do on the fancy box itself iinm.13:15
* jpinx has the battery out13:16
psycho_oreosWhere the barcode is, there is a number there somewhere which sort of narrows it down to month and year of manufacture iinm.13:17
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kwtmHello. How do I find which package a given file/program is in?  e.g. if I want to run Program1, do I install PackageOfProgramsA, or PackageOfProgramsB, etc.?  (I already know how to use "apt-file list pkgname" if I already know the package name, but I'm trying to find the package name, which is likely not yet installed)13:25
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keriodpkg -S pathname13:26
psycho_oreosI was about to say :)13:26
kerionot installed?13:26
kerioit's stored inside debs13:26
keriotough luck13:26
psycho_oreosIf you know the exact name of the program and where its stored (ideally the full path) you can probably google it up and then try narrowing it down to maemo specific. If lucky you might get it.13:27
kwtmkerio: Ok. Thx anyway. Yeah, I'm basically trying to figure out what to install. It's unlikely that I've already installed it, in such circumstances.13:29
kwtmpsycho_oreos: Thx anyway. I'm going to try looking it up in the Ubuntu search --usually they keep the same package arrangements as the rest of Debian.13:30
keriokwtm: what do you want to install?13:31
jpinxpsycho_oreos: here's my label, but no date that I can figure out :(
kwtmkerio: Looking for an image viewer for KDE that doesn't crap out when meta information is corrupted (but the image data itself is fine)13:35
psycho_oreosjpinx, not your N900 lol. The retail packaging box (if you still have it).13:35
kwtmOh, look, apparently in addition to "apt-file list", there's "apt-file search" that can find what package a file is in, without the package needing to be installed.13:35
jon_ytruly, apt is the perfect app manager13:36
jpinxkwtm: or dpkg -l | grep <packagepartname>13:36
jon_ypraise be to debian13:36
kwtmjpinx: No, that doesn't work: the package has to be installed first.13:36
psycho_oreosjpinx, that's only for installed packages, and its a crude way :)13:36
jon_ymaybe google <programname> debian for clues13:37
kwtmjpinx: Also, it's dpkg -L, not dpkg -l (the latter lists package names, not filenames)13:37
psycho_oreosYou can make it into a for loop but its one hell of a ugly hack with excess pipes and other tools like awk/sed required.13:38
kwtmHmm, looks like I found the answer.  I had heard of "apt-file list" and "apt-cache search" but had not realized there was a "apt-file search" before today.13:38
kwtmThanks, people! :)13:38
psycho_oreosYeah I learnt dpkg -S just the other day :).13:39
* jpinx missed the bit where the pkg isn't actually installed yet13:39
jpinxkwtm: explore (or is it .net)13:40
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psycho_oreosjpinx, you still have that retail packaging box for your N900?13:40
jpinxpsycho_oreos: nope :(  long gone - but still have the paper manual :)13:42
jpinxit's about 5 years old13:42
psycho_oreosYeah the label on the retail packaging would have indicate the week and year of manufacture. By no means that is exact but its probably better than nothing.13:43
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jpinxI know it's a very early one, but it's soldiering on well13:45
psycho_oreosLooking at that photo and trying to decrypt various printing on it. I think the one with three forward slashes is probably the IMEI number, thought it might be useful for trying to pinpoint the manufacture dates. Apart from that it seems like the warranty or protection something is voided. There's Chinese words on that sticker near the JTAG area with a hole in it.13:45
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psycho_oreosNot as early as the pre-release ones, they were made in Finland and probably not many are still working well.13:46
jpinxyea - I've had it apart a couple of times after a local (thailand) shop tried to fix a screen problem13:46
jpinxthey stuck chinese stickers everywhere13:47
jpinxand I ended up fixing the screen myself -13:47
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jon_y this land is now claimed by China :)13:47
jpinxyea - something like that13:47
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jon_yI still have my N900 box13:48
psycho_oreosRather "this piece of equipment is now owned by China" lol.13:48
jpinxI travel too much to accumulate a lot of stuff13:48
jpinxI have an eeepc and 2 n900's13:48
jon_yI need more n900s13:49
jpinxbeen contemplating how to replace them when they die - all are getting old and well used13:49
jpinxjon_y: you want one of mine ? :)13:49
jon_yjpinx: sure13:49
psycho_oreosYeah I know when travelling its never fun to take too many N900 retail boxes (for each N900 bought overseas). It tends to give customs the wrong impressions.13:49
jon_yif it boots and usb isn't broke13:49
jpinxjon_y: it's cool - did you pick up the link to the picpaste?13:50
jon_ypsycho_oreos: tell them it calms you down psychologically :)13:50
jon_ynot yet13:50
psycho_oreosApart from excess luggage that is. Nonetheless the N900 packaging was fancy of its day and age. I still have most of my retail packaging boxes however.13:50
psycho_oreosjon_y, after paying import taxes yes :)13:50
jon_yhow much after tax? :(13:51
jon_ywhere are you at anyway?13:51
jpinxI'm in Thailand atm :)13:51
psycho_oreosI don't know, at the time N900 was still available to purchase from the shops overseas (despite only a handful of stores that still manage to carry them).13:51
jon_yin that case, I'm just down south in Malaysia13:52
jpinxjon_y: pm?13:52
psycho_oreosIt was best that I carry the extra N900s in my pockets and hope they won't question about it all.13:53
jpinxone in pocket and one in handluggage ;)13:55
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psycho_oreosFor me (at the time) it was one in outer (visible) jacket pockets and the other on the inner (hidden) jacket pockets. I love how asians design the jackets, they've considered about people pickpocketing and those extra (hidden) pockets can come in handy for various purposes.13:58
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jpinxgoing through security kinda blows that ;)14:09
psycho_oreosIt does but its best hope that they're in good mood, if you're having constant misfortune you might end up getting thoroughly searched and thorougly taxed for whatever you failed to claim.14:11
psycho_oreoss/best hope/best to hope/14:12
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: It does but its best to hope that they're in good mood, if you're having constant misfortune you might end up getting thoroughly searched and thorougly taxed for whatever you failed to claim.14:12
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* Lava_Croft chuckles14:40
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jon_yLava_Croft: what unholy union is this?14:43
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jon_yunholy struct, unholly enum hehe14:43
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drathirlol right made in korea not finland :/14:53
jon_yif it means I can root it and install maemo, I might just forgive Nokia14:54
jon_ygnu userland would be pretty nice14:55
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psycho_oreos... you do realise that new phone isn't going to happen right?15:02
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Lava_CroftAny reason why tracker, when rebuildings its db, seems to now ignore a lot of my music files15:19
Lava_Crofthmm, maybe it just takes longer to index flac files15:21
Lava_Croftor not15:21
Lava_Croftit popped up the notification about adding new files and then didnt add anything new15:21
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Lava_Croftreinstalling ogg-support fixt it15:25
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LjLnice to see Fennec on Maemo is as slow as i remember Fennec on Android being :P15:32
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Lava_Croftcurrent android firefox is kind of ok15:35
Lava_Croftit just has a horrible UI15:35
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LjLi haven't used the more recent versions. besides, on my Milestone i doubt it would be very usable anyway, it's just an old phone by now...15:37
LjLanyway it's ok since i don't mind MicroB15:37
Lava_Crofti dont mind microb if im stuck in a bubble where time moves 10x slower than the rest of the world15:38
Lava_Crofter faster15:38
LjLyeah it's a bit slow15:38
LjLbut then so is Fennec, so not sure what other choices i have :P15:38
LjL(except ones that look ugly)15:38
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DocScrutinizer05infobot: bupbat is also
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay15:48
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DocScrutinizer05((<Lava_Croft> hmm, maybe it just takes longer to index flac files)) missing flac support in tracker is a known issue, cured by re-running the postinstall of flac package iirc15:58
DocScrutinizer05ooh, or ogg package ;-P15:58
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kerioLava_Croft: mh, i always found microb to be much faster than any other browser, on n90016:09
kerioexcept for opera mobile16:09
keriowhich is not a browser16:09
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jon_yopera is an image downloader :)16:15
LjLkerio: it's slow compared to my Android browser (which runs on a very similarly specced phone), though16:17
LjLDocScrutinizer05, is advanced-power and advanced-power-monitor a good idea to install, or somehow troublesome?16:17
kerioLjL: it's crap16:17
kerioif you want a fancier battery applet, install the one from pali16:17
keriothe package is in cssu-devel16:18
LjLugh, so many repositories :P can i install that while not actually having cssu-devel installed?16:18
kerioa repository is just a bunch of files16:18
kerioit should Just Work™16:19
LjLyeah i know, but it's possible a package from a repository will break stuff if it's supposed to be used with everything from that repository up to date16:19
keriowhy do you want advanced power monitor?16:19
kerioare you using some kind of bme replacement?16:19
kerioidk if it'll help, actually16:19
keriomake sure you're in a position where you can reinstall the stock one16:20
keriojust by uninstalling and reinstalling, it would work16:20
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LjLkerio: i have nothing fancy, would just like some more detailed battery info (although i realize they can be inaccurate) than just a green block that i have to guess the tallness of :P16:23
keriothen the new battery applet should help with that16:23
keriobut it's still awfully inaccurate, unless you calibrate bq27k16:23
kerioin face16:23
keriocalibrate bq27k16:24
kerioit's cool16:24
LjLi'll probably do that later, just not got around to it yet16:26
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kerioespecially if you then install the bme replacement16:28
kerioyou get a stupidly accurate meter16:28
keriofor everything16:28
kerioDocScrutinizer05: how precise is bq27k?16:28
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: in its principles of operation it's extremely precise16:32
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LjLmeh, i'm looking at cssu-testing and wanting to install bits of this and bits of that, is it going to be tragic if i just upgrade to cssu-testing? how "testing" is it? :P16:33
DocScrutinizer05of course there are factors like battery chemistry introduced efficiency (ratio between energy you charged and energy that can get discharged) that bq27200 can not meter16:34
kerioLjL: it's literally the testest16:35
DocScrutinizer05but that gas gauge as such is very accurate16:35
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DocScrutinizer05cssu-t for long time been pretty stable and of good quality add-on on top of stock fremantle. Recently though it tends to transform towards some sort of experimental independent incompatible distro16:38
keriowe just need to hold pali back a bit16:40
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kerioalso, DocScrutinizer05 is lyin16:56
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LjLkerio: ah, the applet looks good, no frills and it just gives me some estimate. it's what i was looking for. i'll install cssu-testing now17:04
DocScrutinizer05kerio: yes, always I'm lying. So cssu-t was shit all times, and didn't change at all recently17:05
LjLhow come HAM and FAM have different repository lists? that's a bit annoying. i assumed they both just used /etc/apt/sources.list but apparently not17:06
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: are you aware that an accusation of lying is a severe insult?17:06
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infobotwell, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default.17:06
LjLDocScrutinizer05, often saying "x is lying" after someone says something in a bit of an exaggerate/playful way merely means "x is being facetious, he doesn't really mean it". that's how i took it, anyway17:07
DocScrutinizer05well, I didn't17:08
DocScrutinizer05neither of both17:08
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DocScrutinizer05each single word of my staement about cssu-t above been carefully chosen17:11
DocScrutinizer05to support that statement I may say that I refuse to update since cssu-t7.217:12
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DocScrutinizer05and I honestly consider to reflash my daily phone and then swtich to CSSU-S17:13
LjLi sense that while there is a lot of expertise around Maemo and friends, there may also be a fair bit of mutual developer hostility ;(17:13
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DocScrutinizer05I don't agree with either of your two statements in there17:14
LjLi could certainly be wrong about them since i just came here. it's just a general first impression.17:15
DocScrutinizer05btw cssu-devel is basically NOT a repo17:18
DocScrutinizer05at least not in the sense any normal user would understand the term17:19
DocScrutinizer05as a general rule, you should stay away from it by all means, unless you're interested in breaking your device to test a particular package17:20
DocScrutinizer05it's developers' dropbox17:21
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LjLyeah, i read the TMO disclaimers17:22
LjLi just installed that battery applet17:22
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DocScrutinizer05even better if it actually works for you17:24
LjLis there a way to have a reasonably working portrait keyboard? the default one gets all crammed in portrait mode (when it shows up as such at all), i saw there's a dialpad-style "portrait-keyboard", but when i install it, it gets used for landscape too17:27
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DocScrutinizer05sorry, I don't know. I'm not particularly interested in portrait mode, since otherwise... I could have moved on to N9 already17:29
LjLi'm used to use a portait virtual keyboard and the physical keyboard alternatively, depending on how much and what kind of stuff i need writing17:30
DocScrutinizer05there been a few quite nice keyboards in openmoko, you might want to port and test them maybe ;-)17:30
DocScrutinizer05full qwerty kbd needs stylus for the minuscule keys. predictive error-correcting keyboard is useful only for plain text that the dictionary can predict/correct. The transparent fullscreen kbd is pretty nice for some usecases and actually finger-friendly17:32
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jaskasharp fingernail also kinda works.. being resistive ts17:39
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DocScrutinizer05[notice] preemptively announcing service downtime later on19:08
DocScrutinizer05tmo probably will be fine19:08
DocScrutinizer05the rest might go down for a few hours19:09
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LjLjaska: yeah, i often use my nails with resistive screen, took me a while to adjust to "clumsy" capacitive thumb usage19:21
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LjLalthough now i'm back on a resistive screen, of course, it feels awkward being now used to capacitive :P19:21
jaskayeah im incapable of operating capacitive without a conductive stylus19:21
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LjLi just hate using virtual keyboards on one19:22
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jaskai just refuse to use keyboardless :)19:22
Lava_Croftstylus is tool of the gods19:22
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LjLkerio, can you give me a pointer about the alternative BME? all i know about it is that when i tried installed advanced-power a few days ago, there was "BME Alternative" in the options :P19:24
* DocScrutinizer05 beats Lava_Croft with his eten-M800 stylus19:24
LjLalso, i'm not sure, but it seems maybe GPS assistance works again after i installed this random hack from cssu-devel O.o actually i have satellites now, but i'm indoors, so i doubt it got a fix without assistance19:25
Lava_CroftDon't you beat me, nerd!!!119:25
Lava_CroftI cycled today, muscles ache19:25
Lava_Croftalso it rained, so my carton n900 bicycle case died19:25
Lava_Croftso the last thing i need is someone hitting me with his 'stylus'19:25
LjLthe N810 might not be as hardware-capable as the N900 but damn does it look sleek19:26
LjLN810 isn't actually mine, it was a present for my sister, but by now my sister has got an Android phone and stopped using the N810, so i reclaimed it :P19:27
DocScrutinizer05and I still think it has the better kbd. Others like to disagree19:27
DocScrutinizer05the N810 key mapping is weird, but the kbd hw feels better to me than the N900's19:29
LjLi don't know about that... the keys are more spaced, it "looks" better, it has more of them... but they're SO HARD to press19:29
LjLthe N950 keyboard looks very nice, but i never had the luxury to see it for real19:29
Lava_Croft5510 had the lovely KB19:29
LjLew, no19:30
LjLif we want to talk about lovely keyboards, let's talk Psion19:30
Lava_Croftpsion, Keyboards with an attached screen!19:30
DocScrutinizer05N950 keyboard is abysmal19:30
Lava_Croftyes, those were very nice19:30
LjLDocScrutinizer05: oh?19:30
Lava_Croftn950 keys look all flat19:31
DocScrutinizer05you basically can't type "blind"(?) on it19:31
DocScrutinizer05the keys are *very* hard to distinguish tactile19:31
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LjLhmm. weird, in the pictures, they look more spaced than on either the N900 or the N810, so i assumed you could feel the space between them much better19:32
Lava_Croftn950 keyboard looks like an apple one19:32
Lava_Croftwhere the keys are just flat19:32
LjLon the N900 i basically can't, the only thing that helps is the keys themselves being curved19:32
DocScrutinizer05they ARE just flat19:32
Lava_Croftthey need to be curved either convex or concave19:32
Lava_Croftif those are even the right terms19:33
LjLfortunately my Milestone, too, has curved keys - because apparently some versions of it didn't - and i'm pretty sure i couldn't type on it with flat keys19:33
LjLLava_Croft: they should be19:33
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LjLstill, my tactile cue on keyboards like the Psion's is not so much the curvature, but the "edges" of the keys. that's missing on the N900, N810 and Milestone19:33
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DocScrutinizer05N950 kbd is the second worst hw qwerty kbd I ever ran into. Absolute winner in that category is eten-M800 which not even has gaps between keys, and they are all black except the tiny writing which isn't at center of keycap19:36
DocScrutinizer05so even when you look at the keyboard you always press some additional keys above and/or left of the one you intended to press19:37
Lava_Croftmy western european hands work fine with n90019:38
DocScrutinizer05particularly in the dark19:38
Lava_Croft(ie. big hands)19:38
Lava_Crofti must admit that it got a bit old to carry around a BT keyboard19:38
Lava_Croftand on the train put your phone on the table and get out the keyboard19:38
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LjLWM phones... i have an HTC Universal, that's not bad, both keyboard-wise and in other ways19:42
LjLhowever (i assume that's common to all WM phones) when you "turn it off", it actually goes into some suspend mode and can't stay connected to TCP/IP... if you actually want it to stay connected, then the battery dies in like 4 hours19:43
LjLi guess it's intended to be more of PocketPC + a phone module thing, than an always-on device19:43
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RzRanyone from south america around ?20:49
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DocScrutinizer51[GENERAL NOTICE] going down for maintenance NOW22:07
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