IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2013-07-28

Sc0rpiussince freemangordon is now an autobuilder mantainer, can I bother him about the libx11-data bug?00:00
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kerioi bother him with all sorts of weird shit all the time anyway00:16
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Jellyrolldid onyone managed to soldering the rechargable coin LiIon cell backup-battery00:50
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JellyrollI don't have any soldering skills00:56
JellyrollI need to know what temp. and tin to use00:57
SpeedEvilYou can install various ntpd daemons - or similar - which will reset the clock shortly after it gets onto a network00:57
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JellyrollI do already have ntpd installed and plan to add it to a frcon script but I do also got a display en hwkb that needs to be replaced.01:00
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DocScrutinizer05dafaq, did you think it#s easy to count number of lines in a file?01:04
DocScrutinizer05it's not01:05
DocScrutinizer05when last line is missing trailing cr01:05
DocScrutinizer05alternative: grep -cv '^$'  $filename01:06
DocScrutinizer05counts non-empty lines01:06
DocScrutinizer05or   awk 'END { print NR }' $filename01:10
DocScrutinizer05latter one a true alternative to wc -l that works like you'd intuitively expect wc to do01:12
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* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if a file with a single CR byte has one or two lines, or maybe zero01:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: trailing newline doesn't count01:16
DocScrutinizer05doesn't count in what?01:16
DocScrutinizer05awk 'END { print NR }' $filename01:17
DocScrutinizer05says a file with a single 0x0a byte has one line01:17
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DocScrutinizer053 bytes "1\n2" are two lines in editor and by awk 'END { print NR }' $filename, but only one line in wc -l01:18
DocScrutinizer05since wc -l counts "\n"01:19
DocScrutinizer054 bytes "1\n2\n" are 2 lines in awk and wc -l01:19
DocScrutinizer05and editor01:19
DocScrutinizer05echo -e '\n1' >xx  creates also a 2 line file for editor and awk, but only one line in wc -l01:21
DocScrutinizer05oops, echo -ne01:22
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DocScrutinizer05head also think there's a line#2 in "\nA"01:24
DocScrutinizer05actually about everything and everybody thinks that's a 2 line file, just wc doesn't01:25
Jellyrollthe toilet doesn't01:26
DocScrutinizer05you don't know *my* tolet01:27
DocScrutinizer05toilet even01:27
LjLi am perplexed about CSSU... initially i thought stable would just be testing after the testing had been done, but, latest stable is from 2013 while latest testing is from 2011 yet testing has some things (camera-ui) stable lacks? also for instance, the patched fmtxd, do i find it in stable or testing (or neither)?01:27
kerio>latest testing is from 201101:27
kerio[citation needed]01:27
DocScrutinizer05everyboddy babbling silly stuff, incl me01:28
LjLkerio: eh i don't know, basing it on wiki01:30
infobotfrom memory, cssu is
LjLoh i guess i'm a bit sleepy, i realize now i was reading the version number instead of the date at
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Luke-Jrgah, wife forgot to bring N900 home, so I still need to figure out how to get it to go back to 3G remotely :/03:54
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HurrianLuke-Jr: smscon? ssh tunneling?04:07
DocScrutinizer05Luke-Jr: what's your exact task definition?04:08
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DocScrutinizer05switch from wlan to GPRS?04:09
DocScrutinizer05switch from 2G to 3G?04:09
DocScrutinizer05go from powerdown to full online via WOL? ;-P04:09
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ecc2ghmm...syncevolution broke... :(04:21
ecc2gbroke around the same time I installed CSSU... boo...04:21
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Luke-JrSpeedEvil: yeah04:30
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: my exact goal is to get the N900 providing a backup internet connection04:31
Luke-JrI have usbnet for ssh04:33
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Luke-Jrwoo, VNC works if someone local turns on the screen04:38
* Luke-Jr ponders if there's a way to get it to automatically setup usb0 whenever it has a USB PC link04:38
Luke-Jrwtf, X crash04:41
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drathirLuke-Jr: dhcpd usb0 ?04:52
Luke-Jrdrathir: can't issue commands without access04:53
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Luke-Jris there a crontab support for Maemo?05:15
Luke-JrI could cronjob ifconfig ..05:16
DocScrutinizer05even better than crontabs05:18
Luke-Jris there a CLI way to deal with it?05:18
DocScrutinizer05one thing it's missing: symlink from /usr/bin to /opt/bla/bla/python/bla05:19
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DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# ll `which alarmed`05:20
DocScrutinizer05lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 2011-06-20 15:53 /usr/bin/alarmed -> /opt/alarmed/alarmed.py05:20
Luke-Jroh, that's for CLI? O.o05:21
DocScrutinizer05if you don't have /opt/alarmed/ in your $PATH...05:21
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: no better way to get usbnet working automatically? <.<05:21
Luke-JrI don't have /opt/alarmed at all - nor do I see a package :/05:22
Luke-JrI don't have the devel/testing repos05:27
Luke-Jrbah, even if I automatic ifconfig, I'd need a way to select PC Suite Mode :/05:28
DocScrutinizer05less `which`05:42
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Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: is extras-testing safe?05:56
DocScrutinizer05it's not recommended for "update-all" style05:58
Luke-Jrupdate-all seems broken anyway. I have no battery gague anymore :<05:58
DocScrutinizer05the repo itself is safe, except for HAM getting even slower yet05:59
jon_yupdate-all seems to take forever to scan05:59
DocScrutinizer05if anything is not safe, then that are packages of crappy (or even rogue?) apps06:00
DocScrutinizer05and system components some joker uploaded to extras-devel06:01
jon_yhow did it manage to get through?06:01
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DocScrutinizer05no idea06:01
jon_yso it was a security breech then?06:01
DocScrutinizer05I never looked ibnto all that06:02
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DocScrutinizer05I dunno if there *is* any security on that level06:02
DocScrutinizer05after all, what means "security" here?06:03
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jon_yDocScrutinizer05: not letting some random joker upload stuff?06:03
DocScrutinizer05generaly speaking, HAM will refuse to update system packages from extras repos, since Nokia base repos' trust-level is higher06:04
psycho_oreos<Luke-Jr> ...(truncated)... I have no battery gague anymore :< <-- are you by any chance using advanced power monitor daemon?06:04
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psycho_oreosI've got a nifty script that sorts it out, albeit not automatically.06:04
Luke-Jrit worked fine until some update a while ago06:04
DocScrutinizer05aaaah now I recall: advanced power monitor was exactly what the name suggested: monitor advanced power usage06:05
psycho_oreosThe script just kills the python which runs iirc. After the python process (for that one) gets killed, it will respawn and since respawn I have never seen the battery gauge meter failing to show.06:05
psycho_oreoso.O. Though the applet that I have can control which BME to use, Nokia's BME or alternative BME.06:06
jon_yfor extra fun, killall -9 python :)06:06
psycho_oreosWhy not make it into a while loop >:D06:07
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jon_yps -aux | grep | gawk '{print $1}' | xargs -r /bin/kill -906:07
jon_ykills the first thing that has in it06:07
psycho_oreosI've got a better one, hang on lemme get it from my script out. I have it working with Queen BeeCon widget.06:08
jon_yI know there are better ps args, too lazy to dig it up :)06:08
psycho_oreoskill `pgrep -f /opt/maemo/usr/lib/advanced-power-monitor/`06:09
jon_yI remember the satanic union of an app between Java and Perl at work06:10
jon_ythe thing won't die after exiting06:10
jon_yit kept some files locked06:10
psycho_oreosIt gets zombified? o.O06:10
jon_yno idea06:10
jon_ykillall -9 java fixed it06:10
psycho_oreosYeah I was thinking Java would most likely be the culprit :)06:11
jon_ystupid java coder can't write perl nor java06:11
jon_ythe java script backgrounds itself somehow and launches java in the backround again06:11
psycho_oreosZombified process are the more horrid ones, no way to kill it without restarting the machine iinm. D:06:11
jon_yso you can't kill it from your termninal builtin kill06:11
jon_ynor do you see it in your terminal jobs list06:12
psycho_oreoslolwut, sounds almost like a fork bomb.06:12
jon_yI know not what transpired such madness06:12
psycho_oreosYeah I guess the actual base Java program is probably ran by root or something and gets respawned probably by the likes of init.06:12
jon_yno, it definitely runs as the current user06:13
jon_yit was just way over engineered06:13
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jon_ylike Rube Goldberg06:13
jon_yRube's cartoon inventions06:13
HtheB~seen robbiethe1st06:14
infobotrobbiethe1st <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 13d 47m 6s ago, saying: '... of course, this is the wrong window, but meh'.06:14
jon_yI have a sinking feeling most in-house apps my company does is because of the constant turn-over rate06:14
jon_ynobody knows what they are doing06:14
jon_ynor do they know how to look on google before starting something new06:15
jon_ythere was another GUI "flow" manager, which more or less reinvents make06:15
psycho_oreosI guess it boils down to... "If it ain't broken, don't fix it." sort of strategy. So things just gets left behind without improvements.06:15
jon_ydepdenencies, parallelism and all that06:16
jon_yexcept with a GUI06:16
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jon_yand it's in Java06:16
jon_yI guess no one heard of makefiles when they started it06:16
psycho_oreosWould sir like more memory usagfe on top of that? :D06:16
Luke-JrJava developers still don't have makefiles06:17
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: Would sir like more memory usage on top of that? :D06:17
jon_ywhy of course, they have entire suites of number crunching apps in tcl06:17
jon_yand write C in KnR style06:17
jon_yguys, KnR style is older than your mom when she started working06:18
jon_yfoo_function(arg1, arg2, arg3)06:18
jon_ydouble arg1;06:18
jon_ydouble arg2;06:18
jon_ychar * arg3;06:19
jon_y{ ... begin function ...}06:19
jon_ythat sort of madness, today06:19
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jon_ywhile running gcc-4.5.x06:19
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jon_yalso, using %d for floats, breaking the app when it was ported to x86_6406:20
jon_yI need to reach for some drinks to forget what I saw06:21
psycho_oreosMaybe those devs should be thankful that you're not their boss :D *ducks*06:23
psycho_oreosThe ironic thing is that machine programming languages are hardly different from human foreign language. The lesser one uses those newly learnt skills generally equates to rusty knowledge and sloppy aftermath.06:25
psycho_oreosI mean idea-wise.06:25
jon_ypsycho_oreos: you're damn right, I'd be labeled as an obstructionist06:26
jon_yC shell script writers shouldn't be allowed anywhere near high level Java or low level C06:27
jon_ynot even Perl06:27
psycho_oreosInevitably its funny to see how people are generally, I recall one of my ex boss was using a computer and he was tapping on the mouse really hard for each click like as if he was indirectly trying to smite the mice (and get rid of his frustration/anger).06:28
* psycho_oreos has never heard of C shell script :x06:28
jon_ypsycho_oreos: BSD/HP mainframe era stuff06:29
jon_yCSH and TCSH06:29
psycho_oreosYup, those names I do recall now. The fancy programmer's shell prompts.06:29
jon_yit is a bitch to write for, all the quirks06:29
jon_yit sucks for scripting, it sucks for batch programming06:30
jon_ygenerally, even dash/ash/sh wipes the floor with it06:30
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jon_ypsycho_oreos: so it tries to be C like in presentation06:31
jon_yit was a lie, not C like, and there is no parser at all06:31
psycho_oreosSpeaking of shells, I want to try and change my default shell into zsh (offtopic, not on maemo of course).06:32
jon_yif ( $?somevar) echo $somevar <- this fails when somevar was not defined06:32
jon_yeven if you are already checking it06:32
jon_yit must be on 2 different lines06:32
psycho_oreoslol, that's strict C program. Every variable literally has to be defined, whether it be const, char, double, float, etc.06:33
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: lol, that's strict C programing. Every variable literally has to be defined, whether it be const, char, double, float, etc.06:33
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psycho_oreos*facepalms self* programming*06:33
jon_ypsycho_oreos: it's worst, $?var is supposed to check if it was set beforehand06:33
jon_yoh right06:34
psycho_oreosjon_y, haha wut. That's messed up.06:34
jon_yall the vars are strings06:34
jon_yno types06:34
jon_yI don't think it supports functions06:34
jon_y"some string \"escape\"" <- this fails06:35
jon_yunmatched "06:35
jon_ysome funny things I can't even understand06:35
psycho_oreosAh, but still C programming requires it to be defined regardless, before that variable could be used. If lets say you were to do a cruel comparison between BASH and maybe say CSH, BASH allows variables to sort of be defined "on-the-fly" so to speak.06:35
jon_yif(1) != if (1 ) != if ( 1)06:36
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jon_yoh yes, syntax errors like exiting with "unknown action"06:37
jon_ygood luck debugging a thousand line script from a 2 word error message06:38
Luke-Jrif you're changing 1000 lines at once, you're doing something wrong -.-06:42
jon_yit was due to if ( !$?var )06:43
jon_ycan't put ! next to $06:43
jon_yit must be if ( ! $?var )06:43
jon_yuseless debugging message06:43
Luke-Jrhmm, nat64d fails if it's gprs1 :/06:59
jon_yI never could get nat64d to work07:00
jon_yI understand it is mapping a range of ipv4 address to a /96 space07:01
jon_ybut couldn't get the config right07:01
Luke-Jrit has a config? :P07:01
Luke-JrI think I had to recompile it07:01
Luke-Jra few times07:01
jon_yyes it has, how else do you set where to map? :)07:02
Luke-JrIIRC it was hardcoded in the source07:02
Luke-Jrhence my recompiles07:02
jon_yhuh, must be a different nat64d07:02
Luke-Jror older07:02
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* brolin_empey wonders if he can successfully use a USB to serial converter or a USB VGA controller with the USB Host capability of Maemo 5.09:41
brolin_empeyWith Kermit, I could have a frog in addition to a Python in my pants pocket. ;-)09:43
brolin_empeyWould Python try to eat Kermit? :P09:44
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Siceloyes brolin_empey .. i did use usb <> serial to configure a cisco router with miniom on maemo :)09:46
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brolin_empeyVGA output on a handheld computer would be useful for testing displays before buying them:  then I would have one fewer reason of already few reasons to need a notebook computer which is significantly less functional than an original IBM Personal Computer machine type 5150 from 1981.09:49
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* brolin_empey still needs to create his comparison of the IBM 5150 desktop computer from 1981 to most models of notebook computers from over 3 decades later.09:52
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brolin_empeyA comparison table of the Apple II desktop computer from 1977 to all models of mobile computers running Apple iOS from at least 3 decades later would be (highly) amusing too.09:57
brolin_empeyApple Inc. is comedy gold to me.10:00
Lava_Croftps/2 model 5510:00
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keriopsycho_oreos: why not use pali's battery applet?10:56
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brolin_empeySicelo: I am now successfully using minicom on Maemo 5 as a serial terminal emulator with ftdi_sio but I forgot that I have to use Ctrl+M instead of just pressing Enter in minicom.12:31
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brolin_empeySicelo: Next project:  USB VGA controller on Maemo 5.12:33
Wizzupregarding minicom12:37
Wizzupuse GNU screen12:37
Wizzupscreen /dev/ttyUSB0 11520012:37
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Sicelobrolin_empey: \o/12:39
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Raimukerio: Darn, bmerep has some detection for charging amount versus realtme use and it gives you a yellow banner every 3 minutes.13:11
Raimu"The PC you're charging from doesn't allow for enough power"13:12
RaimuThat's nice but I'm on a wall charger that just isn't powerful enough I guess13:12
RaimuI wish I could disable that message.13:12
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brolin_empeySicelo: Actually, using a composite video to VGA converter seems (much?) easier.13:16
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Siceloi would guess so brolin_empey. i have no experience at all with usb-vga controllers. never had one13:22
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brolin_empeySicelo: Judgeing by my quick search on eBay, VGA to composite video converters are small and very low cost but composite to VGA converters are larger and cost much more, which is unsurprising considering converting RGB to composite is much simpler than the reverse.13:29
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brolin_empeySicelo: This post predates the Nokia N900.13:36
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Wizzupbrolin_empey: n900 composite -> vga is quite possible, I bought a device that can do it13:39
Wizzup(I got it for my SNES, but yeah)13:39
Wizzupn900 works too13:39
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brolin_empeyWizzup: Which model of converter do you have?13:46
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WizzupI don't have it here ... :( I can tell you in a few hours13:47
brolin_empeyIncidentally, my sleep schedule is b0rk3d Yet Again™. :/13:48
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brolin_empeyWizzup: OK, I will still be here when you have it. ;-)13:49
brolin_empeyWizzup: Do you know the approximate physical dimensions of the converter?13:50
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Wizzupyes. larger than the n900 for sure13:50
Wizzupalso needs external power13:50
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brolin_empeyIf I want a handheld computer with a proper GNU/Linux distribution using the X Window System, external USB Host capability, and an integrated hardware keyboard, do I even have any alternative to the Nokia N900?13:57
kerioyou can usually hold laptops with your hands13:57
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keriodoes that count?13:58
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Wizzupbrolin_empey: pandora? also, I wouldn't count on n900's X and hildon to work well with an external usb video card13:59
keriooooh right13:59
keriothe openpandora also works13:59
Wizzupexpensive though14:00
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kerioit's pretty much a n90014:00
brolin_empeykerio: No, by “handheld computer” I meant a mobile computer I can easily fit in my pants pocket and which has integrated converged telecommunication capability.  I simply refuse to call such a computer a telephone even if I occassionally use it as a mobile telephone.14:03
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keriobuy pants that are large enough14:05
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brolin_empeyA Nokia 1011 from 1992 is literally a mobile telephone.  A Nokia N900 from 2009 is a mobile computer which can be used as a telephone but is still very useful even without cellular connectivity.14:09
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brolin_empeykerio: I thought the (Open)Pandora lacks integrated converged telecommunication capability?14:13
Lava_Croftpandora lacks design14:14
Lava_Croftfugly thing14:14
Lava_Croftpandora also had no gsm radio14:15
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Wizzupoh I'm sorry I didn't know how pretty a device is mattered to brolin_empey14:23
Lava_Crofti dont think it matters to him, he didnt say it14:24
Lava_Croftfriend of mine has one of those pandora failures14:24
Lava_Croftoh, they did upgrade the hw14:25
Lava_Croftfriend still has the 600mhz orso14:25
Wizzupseveral friends of mine have openpandoras and they are all very happy with it14:25
Lava_Croftso are my friends, which is a good thing14:26
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brolin_empeyBeauty is in the eye of the beholder.14:37
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Lava_Croftwhen you have an openpandora, it sure isnt in your hands14:38
Lava_Croftso the eye of the beholder looks like a good place to search14:39
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keriothe thing is14:45
kerioit's marketed as some sort of handheld console14:46
keriofor emulators14:46
Lava_Croftyeah it shows itself running gta314:46
keriobut good emulators require lots of cpu to be accurate14:46
Lava_Croftwell, the snes emus etc probably work well enough on the 'new' 1ghz pandora14:46
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Lava_Croftit has a horrible keyboard tho14:48
Lava_Croftbuttons feel very bad14:48
keriobsnes/higan requires 3ghz to run smoothly14:48
Lava_Croftmost people dont care for 100% accurate emulation14:48
Lava_Croftbecause it doesnt really matter14:48
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kerioexcept when playing speedy gonzales14:48
Lava_Croftgood enough is fine for most folks14:48
kerioor star fox (!)14:49
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Lava_Croftlylat wars!14:49
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keriono, that's starfox 6414:50
Lava_Croftoh yeah14:50
kerioand that reminds me, i should probably finish it on my n6414:50
Lava_Croftstar fox was the superfx game that everybody was so hyped about14:50
Lava_Croftbut that actually was really shitty14:50
kerioi 100%ed the 3ds version14:50
Lava_Croftwith horrible graphics14:50
kerioit used an early version of the superfx chip14:51
kerioit had some problems14:51
Lava_Crofti think i still have the cart14:51
keriostarfox 2 was supposed to be better14:51
Lava_Croftoh yeah now it all comes back14:51
Lava_Crofttalking frog14:51
kerioand the beta is actually half finished14:51
keriobut it was scrapped because of the n6414:51
Lava_Crofti think the only reason it was awesome was because hi 3d graphics on snes14:51
Lava_Crofti was firlmy PC-nerd anyway14:52
Lava_Croftconsole games always were lol simple14:52
keriostarfox 64 is unbelievably good14:52
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Lava_Crofti spent 160 dutch guilders on Conker's Bad Fur Day14:53
Lava_Croftthen i quit buying Nintendo games14:53
Lava_Croftgames for nintendo consoles*14:53
keriobad fur day was amazing14:53
Lava_Croftbecause it was an overly expensive game that was overly expensive because at the last moment nintendo decided to not publish it14:53
Lava_Croftthe game itself was pretty fun, especially in multiplayer14:53
Lava_Croftkerio: seen the playthrough of Conker's by some of the original devs?14:54
Lava_Crofton youtube14:54
Lava_Croftwauw, you should14:54
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Lava_Croftthere you go14:54
brolin_empeyReal Life™ is a real game.14:54
Lava_CroftNSFW language, but its so awesome14:54
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Lava_Croftalso, they are very bad at their own game14:55
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brolin_empey :P14:58
Lava_Croftkerio: also a small story in there about the N64 expansion pack14:58
Lava_Croftin relation to DK64 bug14:58
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kerioanyway, MAME also takes ton of cpu15:00
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Lava_CroftI dont think I've ever seen a European care about MAME15:00
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keriowhich makes it kinda useless on the n900, sadly :(15:00
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DocScrutinizer05pandora? HAH! Raster and me approached them about a custom build with GSM radio, in whatever form of cooperation. They were not interested, and we came to think they were not interested to ever produce real hw15:09
Lava_Croftseeing how openmoko is dead and pandora is not (yet), maybe not a bad decision15:10
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DocScrutinizer05(([2013-07-28 13:09:40] <brolin_empey> [...] A Nokia N900 from 2009 is a mobile computer which can be used as a telephone ...)) Which is pretty much what Nokia told us in their advertisments around 2008/2009, no?15:13
DocScrutinizer05and.... good (UGT) morning!15:13
SAiFgood (UGT) morning Doc15:14
Lava_Croftgood afternoon15:14
DocScrutinizer05Lava_Croft: you're mixing up things. Raster alias carsten haitzler never said he's openmoko15:14
Lava_Croftthats not what i said either15:14
DocScrutinizer05so what sense makes your statement?15:14
Lava_Crofti just imagine that adding gsm radios adds a host of work and design they might not want to undertake, given the experience of openmoko15:14
Lava_Croftand it might not really make the pandora a better device15:14
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DocScrutinizer05aaah, well. No it doesn't, actually15:15
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Lava_Crofti imagine that the pandora guys have rather limited funds etc15:15
Lava_Croftif they had good funds, they would have hired a proper designer15:15
* Lava_Croft chuckles a bit lame15:15
DocScrutinizer05adding a module is utterly lightweight, from an engineering perspective15:15
Lava_Croftit will add work on hardware, software, maybe certification of some sort15:16
DocScrutinizer05and we just asked if they'd be interested when we use their desin to improve on it and add some phone functionality. No expense of any kind on their side, first instance15:16
Lava_Croftand maybe they looked at Nokia and saw the trouble that even Nokia had in producing a device with proper hardware quality15:16
Lava_Croft(maemo devices)15:17
DocScrutinizer05just an opportunity to earn royalties15:17
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Lava_Croftoh, by the way15:20
Lava_CroftDarkplaces no run on N90015:20
Lava_Croftat least not satisfactory15:20
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Vibemy gps doesn't work, what's correct location server?15:27 or
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VibeI think that nokias one doesn't work anymore15:27
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Vibeok, thx, I try googles server15:31
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Vibehow I can see gps info? like speed?15:34
Vibei see just map15:35
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DocScrutinizer05try location test app15:36
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DocScrutinizer05it's basically a must to deal with N900 GPS15:37
Vibeapp manager is loading.. takes ages15:37
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Vibecant there be done improvement so loading doesnt take ages? :p15:38
Vibelike cssu15:38
DocScrutinizer05HAM sources are free, go ahead!15:39
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DocScrutinizer05oh FSCK, not this Konversation hickup again!!15:41
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DocScrutinizer05sorry OT15:42
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Vibeinstalling gpsjinni15:42
Sicelonone of the supl servers are working on N900 now fwiw15:43
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Vibegpsjinni is good, thx Lava_Croft15:46
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LjLjust in case i've missed some key page on Google - it's not possible to wifi tether in AP (infrastructure) mode on the N900, is it?15:54
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kerioafaik there's no way to do hostAP on the n900's wifi15:57
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DocScrutinizer05~weather EDDN17:35
infobotNuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2013.07.28 1420 UTC; Dew Point: 57 F (14 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.85 in. Hg (1011 hPa); Relative Humidity: 30%; Temperature: 93 F (34 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Wind: from the SE (130 degrees) at 2 MPH (2 KT)17:35
DocScrutinizer05+3 downtown penalty17:35
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LjLDocScrutinizer05: 35.5 here, a pretty horrid couple of days18:06
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drathirn900 have thermal security sensors?18:08
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LjLdrathir: it certainly has at least one thermometer18:12
drathirbut shutdown device when overheat?18:12
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drathirTemperature   : 35 C18:14
drathirin the air18:14
drathirafter night and chaging device was little hot maybe was to little covered but now temp back to normal state, but i think about if temp will to high, the phone auto shutdown?18:17
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drathirbtw yea thunderstorm should come 300km distance temp is Temperature   : 26 C18:19
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NeutrinoPowerwho used rescueOS? where do I get initrd.img ?18:31
NeutrinoPowerhttp:// for flasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0"18:31
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kerioinitrd.img is rescueOS-1.1.img18:32
NeutrinoPowerah, I had just the same idea :D18:33
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NeutrinoPower"Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy" :-(18:51
NeutrinoPowerI have aur/flasher 3.5_2.5.2.2-218:52
NIN101you must be root18:54
NeutrinoPowerand i must hold "u" on N900 while switch on?18:56
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Lava_Crofthold u while inserting the USB cable18:57
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NeutrinoPowerthen this happens: "USB device found found at bus 002, device address 045. Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy"19:00
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DocScrutinizer05drathir: yes, afaik dsme has thermal management and will shutdown on overtemperature19:09
DocScrutinizer05NeutrinoPower: blacklist phonet!19:11
DocScrutinizer05general advice at19:12
infobotit has been said that maemo-flashing is
DocScrutinizer05while you're not programming your flash stroage on N900, the procedure is identical on PC side19:13
DocScrutinizer05so are the caveats19:14
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NeutrinoPowerYES! it works19:22
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LjLheh, Cyanogen is having a Google+ discussion about dropping the ability to have root on Android, and so many people are like "sure, why would i ever need it, i'm not an adblocker or a criminal" (<- parody)... wait i said "heh"? i meant "meh". i guess this is why i just bought an N900 even though i had no reason to ;(19:44
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RaimuWhy are they entertaining the idea?19:46
RaimuTo protet the dumb user?19:47
Raimu*protect, from themselves19:47
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LjLRaimu: well, it's not very clear from the G+ thread, and i haven't read other sources yet - but my understanding is that Android itself (version 4.3) is in the process of integrating SELinux and losing the concept that as long as you're root, you can do anything, so Cyanogen is wondering whether CM should stick to that concept, or break it. specifically, he wants to know "what people use root for", so he can provide alternate ways to do it without root (19:49
LjLadditional CM-specific capabilities?) instead19:49
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RaimuOh, OK. I'm not very knowledgeable on where Android is heading.19:54
RaimuIs the SElinux change something like an attempt at clamping down on user abilities to do more than Google sanctions?19:56
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LjLRaimu: well i wouldn't know, i suspect there might be a bit of genuine security concern (especially in the wake of a couple big exploits on Android), and a bit of "clamping down". i don't know what exactly they're planning and doing, i should read up. but, it's certainly true that the current Android permission model is very weak... it basically gives you a list of things an app can do (and it's very easy for apps to list "everything" and assume the user won't20:11
LjLcare), plus some degree of isolation among apps20:12
LjLthat's not a stellar security system20:12
LjLMaemo doesn't even have that, afaik, but then Maemo's app are mostly open source things20:12
ecc2gsecurity or liberty, which do you want.20:13
RaimuLjL: Heh, yeah, Chrome has the same list.20:13
RaimuAnd some apps just make it some point of honour to keep using more and more of them even though they're off the scope of what the apps should do.20:14
LjLecc2g: i don't buy that they're incompatible20:14
LjLRaimu: yeah.20:14
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ecc2gor inconvenience.  that's the third option.20:14
LjLmaybe i'm the only one, but i didn't mind how Symbian actually asked me every time an app wanted to use data, unless i gave a "sticky" go-ahead20:15
ecc2gI don't actually trust the symbian model.20:16
LjLecc2g: i don't like the Symbian model in general, those "signed capabilities" are something i can *definitely* live without, i was just talking specifically about the concept of *asking* you about doing things20:17
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LjLAndroid is like, "here's what i can and possibly will do, if you're not ok with that, don't install". that seems way too black and white. fortunately with CyanogenMod, i can also *deny* some capabilities, but then apps start crashing20:17
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SpeedEvilIt's kind of depressing that 5 of the top 6 calculators on Play have all the permissions they need to wake up at 3AM and start scanning your network and reporting back what they find to china.20:19
LjLheh :(20:19
SpeedEvilI mean - sure - they probably just 'legitimately' use that permission to show you ads.20:20
ecc2gUnfortunately it sounds like you have to get rid of Linux to have these fine grain controls over apps20:20
LjLSpeedEvil: and yeah, another factoid with Android is how applications can mostly freely schedule themselves to be started up at any time, so when you add that to wildcard-capabilities...20:20
LjLecc2g: nah20:20
ecc2geither you VM these things or no Linux20:21
LjLecc2g: well, Android VMs them20:21
ecc2gbecause binaries can always do ioctls directly to the kernel20:21
LjLecc2g: but Android just stops short of actually *letting you control* them20:21
LjLecc2g: hm, what about SELinux then20:21
LjL(which, apparently, Android is going to start using)20:21
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SpeedEvilecc2g: You don't quite have to get rid of linux. You have to have a deeply well thought out permissions system with more than normal linuxy permissions.20:23
SpeedEvilecc2g: And someone actually vetting these permissions at least to some degree.20:24
SpeedEvil'No, you're a calculator, you don't say anything about why you might need to use the mic - denied'.20:24
ecc2geither way if an app starts ioctling to the kernel somehow a hook needs to go to the GUI to allow it or not...20:24
LjLSpeedEvil: yeah, i think that can easily enough be the user though, perhaps contrary to current trends20:24
ecc2gthis interface is very klunky - and is a convenience issue20:24
SpeedEvilOr it's just flat denied.20:24
SpeedEvilAegis had in principle the right technology to a large degree - but the wrong policy.20:25
LjLecc2g: ah yeah, i remember reading how adding a "feedback" thing in Linux was difficult (i read that about firewalls, but i guess it goes for most things)20:25
SpeedEvilIf it was possible to add other community 'stores' with the same permissions as nokia, few people would have had much issue with aegis.20:25
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ecc2gthe kernel will happily report these things but basically have to go to a completely new api.20:25
LjLSpeedEvil: i don't know/remember what Aegis is, where they the ones who handled Symbian capabilities?20:26
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SpeedEvilAegis was a wrapper around many normal system attributes. It did fancy parsing of sourcecode at compile time to generate a permission list for the binary.20:26
Raimu #offtopic #someonewaitedforthis20:27
SpeedEvilThose permissions were the only ones the binary had - if it tried to do other things it got an error.20:27
ecc2gthen there's the case where you allow it, and then change your mind later... but the damage is already done...20:28
SpeedEvilIt's a sane and sensible approach - but only if the user has some means to bypass it.20:28
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LjLSpeedEvil: uhm, i don't understand - i fail to see the use of that. it lets you generate a "manifest" (in Android terms) automatically based on source, and then you can be sure the binary won't do things the source didn't mention, but how's that different from just having someone trusted compile it?20:29
SpeedEvilAnd yes, ideally shut off individual capabilities.20:29
SpeedEvilLjL: No - even if the binary does unexpected calls - they don't work.20:29
LjLSpeedEvil: yeah20:30
ecc2gthis problem isn't still boggles me why is this such a big problem now, it has been this way ever since binaries were distributed...20:30
SpeedEvilSo in principle - in the event of stack smashing or other bugs in the binary - it can't be exploited20:30
LjLSpeedEvil: but that's the same in Android, if your binary tries to do something it didn't declare a permission for in the Manifest, then the call fails. only difference compared to what you described is, the developer has to list the permissions manually in the Manifest, they're not "guessed" from the source code, but that doesn't seem a big deal to me unless i'm missing something20:30
LjLSpeedEvil: ah, so that was the goal, i see20:31
SpeedEvilIt's a problem now as people install lots more apps typically, with lots less review, and no payment.20:31
ecc2galso if you have fine control on ever call, it is a performance hit20:31
infobotecc2g meant: also if you have fine control on every call, it is a performance hit20:31
SpeedEvilNo payment up front.20:31
SpeedEvilWhereas the app authors expect payment from ads.20:31
SpeedEvilThis tends to lead to privacy violations, amongst other things, and apps that are hard to tell from malicious ones.20:32
LjLi've been trying to use as many open-source apps as possible on Android lately, and only get them from F-Droid20:32
SpeedEvilThen there is security/convenience tradeoffs.20:33
SpeedEvilFor example 'hotspot shield'.20:33
SpeedEvilYes - you make yourself secure to the local network even if it's unencrypted - for the cost of giving a third party all of your traffic20:34
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LjLthat doesn't sound like a wholly wonderful idea :P20:36
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LjLuhm, stuff about SELinux as it's being deployed on Android can be read at and but i honestly understand little of the mumbo jumbo. seems to me like they're doing the usual "Android 'itself' is very permissive, then hey, if manufacturers want to use the tools we provide to lock your system down..." stunt, but i am a pessimist20:56
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XATRIXHi, i have very dark video during skype video call22:14
XATRIXAny possible idea, how can i fix it ?22:14
kerioSpeedEvil: ssh tunnel to a trusted server?22:15
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SiceloXATRIX: not much you can do.. althoughfrom my reading, it appear that the front cam is actually better on skype than with XMPP, for example. you just have to use your N900 where lighting is good.22:35
Sicelos/ghfr/gh fr/22:35
infobotSicelo meant: XATRIX: not much you can do.. although from my reading, it appear that the front cam is actually better on skype than with XMPP, for example. you just have to use your N900 where lighting is good.22:35
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XATRIXso there's no way to fix the exposition ?22:41
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Siceloskype is closed source first of all :P22:41
XATRIXbut i meant, the kernel module22:42
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Siceloyou can play with the 'raw' camera using mplayer or gstreamer tweaks, but it's still terrible.22:42
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XATRIXok, will try to22:44
XATRIX thank!22:44
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