IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2013-05-25

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darodihi guys00:45
darodii was planning to migrate from multiboot to u-boot... then i read this
darodiIt's totaly useless when booted from u-boot (no wifi, battery meter, charging...)00:46
darodiis it true? any one with nitroid switched to uboot here?00:47
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DocScrutinizer05To instal kernel you have to:01:28
DocScrutinizer05mount /home /and01:28
DocScrutinizer05no more to say. All that stuff looks completely gibberish to me. I don't think I could install anything useful following those instructions, and I usually know my way around unix/linux01:29
DocScrutinizer05alas I can't help about your original question, since I never touched nitdroid - sorry. Installing uBoot on N900 is not that hard, it even tries to convert/migrate existing multiboot/bootmenu entries01:32
DocScrutinizer05God gracious, this stuff makes my eyes bleed!01:38
DocScrutinizer05bzip2 -d N12_UMay.tar.bz2 cd /01:39
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DocScrutinizer05mount /home /and01:39
DocScrutinizer05cd /and01:40
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DocScrutinizer05despite the whole thing is tagged "PHP code:" I think they really mean it01:40
DocScrutinizer05the bzip and mount parameters make no sense to me01:41
DocScrutinizer05except somebody did a damn good job to obfuscate stuff01:41
DocScrutinizer05I wouldn't hope bzip2 takes a COMMAND "cd" as parameter01:42
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DocScrutinizer05and I never heard of a device /and you could mount to /home, for whatever purpose01:43
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DocScrutinizer05if that's a bindmount that it should need more parameters01:43
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DocScrutinizer05at least --bind01:43
DocScrutinizer05even worse, mount syntax is >>mount [-fnrsvw] [-t vfstype] [-o options] device dir<< so the device was /home which for sure is no device on any linux I ever seen01:45
rikaneeDocScrutinizer05: perhaps that's why people have been filling up their rootfses?01:46
DocScrutinizer05lol, I can't even figure what might happen when trying to follow that instruction01:46
DocScrutinizer05honestly, have a look at this: for a laugh or a cry, depending on your mood01:47
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DocScrutinizer05of course "cd" *might* be a filename for bzip2, but honestly who names his file "cd" ?01:51
rikaneesigh, that entire thread is just sad.01:51
infobotfrom memory, rtfm is Read The F*cking Manual (TM). It is a suggestion to do your homework before posting a question. Sometimes used as RTFM $SPECIFIC_MANUAL to refer to a specific source of information. See also
DocScrutinizer05or it is a option parameter to bzip2 with a typo: -cd01:51
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DocScrutinizer05but then I'm afraid user wouldn't have any joy in watching the decompressed output spamming his stdout01:52
DocScrutinizer05only explanation is that a newline is missing, but then the bzip2 cmd makes no sense without parameters01:53
DocScrutinizer05oooor the whole shit is some extremely nifty PHP code indeed, that I simply fail to grok01:53
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DocScrutinizer05in te end I'd fail to enter the green "/" anyway X-D01:54
rikaneeDocScrutinizer05: they simply forgot to include exec();01:54
DocScrutinizer05ohmy android. Too complicated for me ;-P01:57
darodimount /home /and is just a bind as you say ...never seen that syntax before01:58
darodii think i'll just remove nitdroid and go for uboot. i'm using maemo 99% of the time and just reboot to nitdroid when my wife desesperately needs to play a stupid game :P02:01
DocScrutinizer05aaah, maybe get her a cheap droidfon02:03
DocScrutinizer05darodi: make sure you boot to maemo, so multiboot cleans up its shit02:04
darodiwell... she also has a n900 with a gamegripper but pollutes mine with nitdroid :))02:05
DocScrutinizer05(proper kernel modules and kernel flashed - yes, multiboot *flashes* kernel on each boot)02:05
DocScrutinizer05then you should have no problems installing most recent uBoot02:05
DocScrutinizer05and if you're lucky, uBoot will be able to boot into android on uSD out of the box02:06
DocScrutinizer05if not, I think the tweaks needed to uBoot config files and maybe android fs on uSD are minimal02:07
DocScrutinizer05you might need to get the kernel uimage of android kernel and put it somewhere from where uBoot can load it02:08
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darodiare there pre-made uimage already or do i need to convert the vmlinuz kernel to uimage?02:14
darodii'll have a look in the nitdroid forums02:14
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DocScrutinizer05there are pre-built uimages for about everything02:23
DocScrutinizer05ask Pali, he should know a lot more about all that stuff - after all he's maintainer of uBoot02:24
DocScrutinizer05hmm, lemme try sth...02:24
infobotN900 uBoot is a siamese twin binary [uBoot+stockMaemoKernel] that resides in kernel NAND partition /dev/mtd3 aka "kernel". You can't uninstall it, rather you'll nuke it when you flash/install another kernel like stock maemo kernel or powerkernel. To start other than stock maemo kernel via uBoot, you have to provide the according kernel image files02:24
DocScrutinizer05hmmpf, thought there might be an URL to a proper wiki/tmo page about uBoot and how-to-install02:25
Paliif you put linux (z)image to /boot or /opt/boot it will be automatically converted to uimage format by u-boot-update-bootmenu02:25
Paliand stored in MyDocs02:25
DocScrutinizer05scary :->02:25
darodiPali: thanks for the info02:25
DocScrutinizer05Pali: seems Nokia never will fix that signing key issue02:29
Palidid you got any new email?02:29
DocScrutinizer05Pali: should we get rip-offs of the Nokia repos and publish a tool to patch the catalogs?02:29
DocScrutinizer05no new mail02:29
DocScrutinizer05maybe even a fiasco image with patched catalogs list02:30
DocScrutinizer05the run our own core repos02:30
darodiPali: i have cssuthumb and kp 51 in nand right now. should i reboot to omap1 before uninstalling  multiboot?02:30
Pali15.5 I got email from Mikko that he going to fix it02:31
DocScrutinizer05darodi: a thumbified system will crash on a non-thumb-enabled kernel02:31
darodithat's what i thought02:32
DocScrutinizer05alas uBoot comes with stock kernel02:32
DocScrutinizer05so installing uBoot on a thombified system is quite tricky - you easily end in a reboot loop02:33
DocScrutinizer05you basically have to make sure that your uBoot can boot from a powerkernel uimage before you install uBoot02:34
DocScrutinizer05otherwise you end up with a system with uBoot and stock kernel that can't boot up to fix it any easy way02:34
PaliI will write to Mikko if he is really going to fix it or not02:35
DocScrutinizer05make sure you have the right "To:" ;-)02:35
DocScrutinizer05and maybe add council to CC02:36
DocScrutinizer05for sure council wants to help on that issue02:36
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darodiDocScrutinizer05: so... to summarize03:26
darodi1. uninstall multiboot03:26
darodi2. install uboot03:26
darodi3. upgrade kp51 to kp5203:26
darodi4. create bootmenu items03:26
darodi5. run update boot menu03:26
darodi6. reboot03:26
darodii am right?03:26
darodi0. backup everything :P03:27
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DocScrutinizer05hmm, to me that lloks good, but that doesn't mean a thing. I'm no expert03:29
DocScrutinizer05though... upgrade KP nukes uBoot03:30
DocScrutinizer05you need to install KP-uimage03:30
darodithat's what i meant with the point 303:32
darodiinstall uimages for kp and create valid bootmenu items03:32
DocScrutinizer05the idea is that uBoot loads different uImages depending on kernel you want to boot. But the one "built-in" kernel that ships with uBoot is a stock maemo kernel that doesn't work with thumb. So you need the kp52-uimage in place before you install uBoot03:32
darodiI guess I found something to do tomorrow03:35
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darodithanks again DocScrutinizer0503:48
darodigood night every one03:48
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hellhi, folks09:40
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helldoes anybody affiliated with present?09:41
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divVerentbefore I waste 30minutes to code my own: is there already an "align to grid" tool for hildon-desktop?12:29
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divVerentif not - it looks like I'll do it as shell script then12:29
jogahmm, I think some theme manager thingy allowed to configure grid snap...12:34
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jogadivVerent, I have something in Settings called Theme Customizer (I forget the package name), it allows to define the snap etc12:35
divVerentodd, as there is no gconf setting for that12:36
divVerentwonder where it sets that then :)12:37
jogadunno :) but I have it set on 8 pixels and when I drag stuff around they align themselves according to that12:37
divVerentOH, so maybe the snap size is part of the theme12:38
divVerentthat'd explain why I don't find it in gconf12:38
divVerentthanks, that did it12:39
divVerentno snap to grid shell script then :)12:40
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Macerok. i thought the old ibm mechanical keyboard was cool up until i realized how much noise it makes when you type12:50
Maceri wonder if i can find custom keys for it heh12:50
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jogasome of my more special keyboards have this 'plunk' sound they make when you release a key, it sorta echoes inside it also12:58
jogahard to type quietly with those :)12:58
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ApicA wonderful splendid Towel Day.14:56
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inzdammit, didn't bring my towel14:58
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DocScrutinizer05Apic: a wonderful (UGT) good morning16:14
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divVerentBTW, just saw with NetStory... I need only about 100 MB per month of mobile traffic with the N90016:31
divVerentby setting it to only use mobule internet when asked to16:31
divVerentgood it has options to e.g. only16:32
divVerentcheck email on wifi automatically, and such16:32
divVerentiPhone in same usage pattern took about 500 MB16:32
divVerent100 MB however only due to Opera's Turbo server... otherwise it'd be about 200 MB16:32
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, but that usage pattern is mostly irrelevant to me, thanks xchat ;-)17:05
DocScrutinizer05the whole idea and purpose behind irc and maemo unique awesome multitasking being the always-online aspect17:06
DocScrutinizer05IOW the fact that I get audible and vibra notification on every highlight and inbound /query in realtime17:07
divVerentthat would be too much for me... due to some other channels17:07
divVerentthing is, Maemo simply needs a lot less traffic than iOS17:08
divVerentbecause you have more control on what you enable and what not17:08
divVerentI also use AutoDisconnect, for example17:08
DocScrutinizer05the only optimization I could think of is a smart proxy that does the highlight detection serverside and thus buffers "irrelevant" traffic until a realtime "event" happens17:08
DocScrutinizer05divVerent: auto-disconnect is a poor idea and a terrible botch/hack that messes up your connectivity sooner or later17:09
divVerentmesses up?17:09
divVerentI know it isn't really implemented right... but what is the worst that can happen?17:09
divVerentthat it disconnects17:09
divVerentso what17:10
DocScrutinizer05being associated to aPN doesn't mean any increased power usage or traffic per se17:10
divVerentbut it means that the next program wanting a data connection will ask me17:10
divVerent(or fail)17:10
divVerentAutoDisconnect's main issue is that its detection logic is flawed17:10
divVerentit checks once per $INTERVAL for the amount of traffic since start17:10
divVerentso if just at the end of $INTERVAL I open the browser...17:11
divVerentit may still disconnect me right after fetching some data17:11
DocScrutinizer05and I seen like half a million user complaints about mysterious defects in connectivity that were impossible to fix even by deinstallation of auto-disconnect -> reflash for those poor lads17:11
divVerentI can live with that though, it never hit me, but it's an obvious flaw nevertheless17:11
divVerentthat I did not have yet17:11
divVerentwhat weird stuff does it do other than checking traffic amount and disconnecting?17:11
DocScrutinizer05yeah it kicks in at random, eventually17:12
divVerentyes, it does kick in at random, by its flawed design... for the reason I described17:12
divVerentbut that issue I can live with17:12
DocScrutinizer05auto-disconnect is messing with icd config and logic in a way that doesn't get deinstalled by postrm17:12
divVerentwhy would it even need to do that17:12
DocScrutinizer05eventually icd breaks on that mess17:12
divVerentand do you have any other software to suggest for that purpose?17:13
divVerentall I REALLY want is automatic disconnection from GPRS/3G when locking17:13
DocScrutinizer05sorry I never did an in-depth evaluation, just episodic wisdom17:13
divVerentalso, if the bug is known, why isn't it fixed17:13
divVerent(the bug in postrm, that is)17:13
DocScrutinizer05divVerent: for THAT I'd suggest dbus-scripting plus some smart dbus message to ICD217:14
divVerentI wouldn't know which message, though17:14
divVerentand on which event17:14
infobotfrom memory, phonecontrol is
divVerentbut also17:14
divVerentnow that I know postrm has a bug17:14
divVerentshould I really dare to deinstall it?17:14
divVerentor would that even CAUSE issues due to now dangling references?17:15
DocScrutinizer05nah, deinstall of auto-disconnect is prone to COMPLETELY mess up stuff17:15
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divVerentwhy is it in extras BTW then17:15
DocScrutinizer05yep, exactly17:15
divVerentif it is that broken17:15
divVerentshouldn't such stuff remain in extras-devel then?17:15
divVerentI sure can't afford reflashing it17:16
divVerentit'd take me ages to get set up aghain17:16
DocScrutinizer05auto-disconect would be a fine candidate to join crappatch's fate17:16
divVerentEVEN with backup of all gconf stuff17:16
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DocScrutinizer05in my book17:16
DocScrutinizer05alas I have no time to follow up on it17:16
divVerentactually... is there a tool that identifies all modified system files (including config), and creates a diff from the original version? :)17:16
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divVerentdebsums is sort of that17:17
divVerentbut not packaged for Maemo17:17
DocScrutinizer05well, you know the path to go... ;-D17:17
divVerentif I have the list of files modified from the original version, all else I need is the original .debs and diff17:17
DocScrutinizer05seen your application17:17
divVerentyes, but it'd take me still a few weeks to be able to run the SDK17:17
divVerentI still only have my eeepc 70117:17
divVerentand yes, debsums should be somewhat easy to port17:18
divVerentalthough the debian binary does not run on Maemo17:18
divVerenttoo many library dependencies for crypto hash stuff17:18
divVerentbut such libs tend to be quite portable17:18
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divVerentactually, if I had a Debian system here... I could run debsums remotely :)17:18
divVerentdebsums can use another root, and sshfs exists17:18
DocScrutinizer05or you ask somebody with a proper system to run that stuff for you ;-D17:19
divVerentdebsums may be a good idea17:19
divVerentit may even find what AutoDisconnect screwed up17:19
DocScrutinizer05yep, absolutel<y17:19
DocScrutinizer05ping merlin1991!17:19
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divVerentonce you know the file, it probably can be fixed by a few dpkg commands17:19
DocScrutinizer05he might be very interested17:19
DocScrutinizer05he also might be willing to help on getting debsums pkg built for maemo17:20
divVerenttoo bad it's still ugly to download every single .deb, and extract the one file to compare with17:20
divVerentalso, I recently noticed that LOTS of stuff from community is not in the mp-community-*-pr metapackage17:20
divVerentnot even apt is17:20
divVerentor the notes app is not either17:21
DocScrutinizer05that's base package that comes by flashing17:21
divVerentI had wondered why my deborphan keepers file is so big :)17:21
divVerentI created it from a fresh install17:21
divVerentsome of the packages in that list SURE don't look like I could safely remove them17:21
divVerentso mp-*-pr does not protect all that should be protected from "accidental" removal17:21
DocScrutinizer05that's why apt-get upgrade is forbidden (well, one of the reasons, and not really exactly fitting this case, but anyway)17:22
divVerentupgrade does not remove stuff17:22
divVerentyou mean dist-upgrade :)17:22
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divVerentbut even dist-upgrade doesn't "just do" it17:22
divVerentit lists what it would do, and asks17:22
DocScrutinizer05and auto-remove17:22
divVerentsomething one should ALWAYS read17:22
divVerenteven on Ubuntu this broke stuff sometimes17:22
DocScrutinizer05and other weird commands on apt cmdline17:22
divVerentlike, I had it once want to remove bash on Ubuntu17:23
divVerentautoremove is not even broken...17:23
divVerentit does what it is designed for... and its design is bad17:23
DocScrutinizer05probably deinstalled 90% of system17:23
divVerentit's equally bad on Debian17:23
divVerentjust that Debian does a better job at marking packages "essential"17:23
divVerentwhich apt generally refuses to remove17:23
DocScrutinizer05nokia been terribly lazy on dependcy-definitions17:24
divVerentI actually hate the autoremove function of packaging systems17:24
divVerentI mean, does it even do any good?17:24
divVerentI install stuff, try it out... and later want to remove it17:24
DocScrutinizer05they cut edges there, assuming they were in full control of every PR that rolls out17:24
divVerentbut when I installed like 50 crazy things to try out17:24
divVerentthen I don't remember any more which they were17:24
divVerentso basically, I do not even WANT automatic marking as "wanted" when installing stuff17:25
divVerentI know you can tell apt to not do that, but the default is bad and leads to clutter in that list17:25
divVerentthat's why I use debfoster/deborphan17:25
divVerentmy workflow is to rather install lots of stuff17:25
divVerenttry it out17:25
divVerentmark as good what I want to keep17:25
divVerentthen remove all else17:25
DocScrutinizer05you seem pretty savvy regarding that stuff17:25
divVerentusing Debian, Ubuntu for ages...17:26
divVerentas for debsums, I will now try to run that over WLAN then Internet then my server :)17:26
divVerentthe flash image isn't THAT big, so it may even work17:26
DocScrutinizer05all it needs is a proper lesson on all the broken stuff in maemo packaging and we have a new maintainer ;-)17:26
divVerentisn't the lesson of what is NOT broken shorter? :)17:26
DocScrutinizer05indeed ;-P17:26
divVerentregarding the phone control page... I was not into telephony much17:27
divVerentwhat is the difference between "ICD" and "ICD2"17:27
DocScrutinizer05let's face it: apt never been meant to get used without HAM wrapper around it, on maemo17:28
DocScrutinizer05I think there is no difference, except lazy typing17:28
divVerentI somewhat doubt the HAM wrapper does it a lot better... it does other things worse17:28
divVerentis the icd2 documented anywhere?17:29
divVerentthat bitmask field looks intriguing... like, can it be told to not touch wifi? :)17:29
DocScrutinizer05(HAM) well, it adds another layer of abstraction, some filtering, and a new concept of traust/security17:29
divVerentah, no17:29
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divVerentit is documented, and does nothing useful17:30
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divVerentthey should rather have done this trust concept as part of apt17:30
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divVerenthm... "network type" is one of the args of that request. That sounds neat.17:30
divVerentso disconnect GPRS on lock is actually quite easy17:30
DocScrutinizer05it sure is17:30
divVerentoh wait, also noticed something else17:31
divVerentI want to conserve battery life17:31
DocScrutinizer05would take me max 15 min to implement17:31
divVerentso maybe what I really want is to disconnect GPRS _and_ wifi as soon as I am on battery AND locked17:31
divVerentyes, probably17:31
divVerentonly this checking for both things... is not that trivial using just dbus-script17:31
divVerentunless I store data in files, which I would not want to17:31
DocScrutinizer05get dbus-scripting pkg, run dbus-monitor and find out about the relevant events/messages, implement the dbus-scripting-script17:32
divVerentso I would rather want to check lock state and charging state... in worst case, using bnf's way, and lock is sure in the process table :)17:32
divVerentdbus-scripting however is somewhat stateless... or not?17:32
divVerentit nonly responds to messages17:32
DocScrutinizer05why not store data in temporary files?17:32
divVerentbut if I only want to react when TWO events are true, and no matter which one came last17:32
divVerentthat is error prone :)17:32
divVerentI'd rather check the respective other state on each state change17:32
DocScrutinizer05or, even better: find our about sttaes by more dbus messages or rads from sysfs?17:33
divVerentyes, that would be it17:33
divVerentjust means more badly doucmented dbus stuff to figure out17:33
DocScrutinizer05damn, my typing sucks today even worse than usually17:33
DocScrutinizer05dbus-monitor is your friend17:34
DocScrutinizer05and dbus-introspections (which is non-existant for all genuine nokia dbus objects >:-(  )17:34
DocScrutinizer05check out mdbus aka mickey#s dbus monitor17:35
DocScrutinizer05tan expansion on dbus methods and addr17:35
DocScrutinizer05based on introspection17:35
divVerentthat is nice17:37
divVerent0root@v220120211684756499:~# debsums -r /mnt -l > no-md5sums.txt; debsums -r /mnt -c -a > changed-md5sums.txt17:39
DocScrutinizer05iirc it's python! ;-)17:39
divVerentwonder how slow that will be :)17:39
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divVerentprobably a few hours17:39
divVerent1Mbit/s upstream17:39
DocScrutinizer05you should get a proper account on a net box with some cpu grunt and fat backbone17:40
divVerentthe server I use basically has that17:40
divVerentthe 1MBit/s is the limit of my ADSL the N900 is connected to17:40
divVerentall PC I have here is the eeepc with 4 GB SSD17:41
divVerentand 2 GB RAM17:41
divVerenta typical case where the rule "swap = 2 * ram" would be REALLY bad17:41
DocScrutinizer05I finally should upload a complete virgin maemo5 fs to $somewhere17:41
divVerentso I used an alternate rule: "swap = 0"17:41
rikaneedivVerent: 2GB RAM for a Linux system is a /lot/17:42
divVerentbut I sometimes used it17:42
divVerentI had to run Java stuff...17:42
divVerenttypically in my daily use, up to 1GB get used17:42
divVerentsome web sites eat a lot of RAM17:43
DocScrutinizer05don't ever try to run crazy PHP jobs on it! ;-)17:43
rikaneeactually, unless I were to build/link large programs, e.g. Android/Firefox/Chrome/etc., I'd have swap off17:43
divVerenton SSD I never use swap... except on the N900 where it can't be avoided17:43
DocScrutinizer05we got one on garage.m.o that used to use 5GB of ram, for nuttin17:43
divVerentbut there I moved swap to an old micro SD card17:43
divVerentif it breaks from write cycles, so be it17:43
divVerentthere is BTW a neat trick to "move" swap on N90017:43
divVerentjust swapon -p 1 /dev/elsewhere17:43
divVerentit will take priority over the default swap17:44
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DocScrutinizer05just that messybox original swapon doesn't take any parameters17:44
divVerentI have the swapon with parameters17:44
DocScrutinizer05particularly not prio17:44
divVerentno matter where from17:44
divVerentbut the prio is set in /proc/swaps17:44
rikaneedivVerent: with bb-power, I edited the init scripts to automatically swap to SD card if a swap partition is detected there17:44
divVerentrikanee: that I didn't dare :)17:45
divVerentthe swapon I have here is from busybox, and only supports -a and -p prio options17:45
divVerentbut that may be only in bb-power17:45
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rikaneeswapon -p is broken on PR1.3 busybox ;)17:46
divVerentbroken how?17:46
divVerentdebsums: missing file /mnt/opt/maemo/usr/share/doc/an-droid-theme/copyright (from an-droid-theme package)17:46
divVerentdo I really like that error?17:46
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divVerentah, right17:46
divVerentthere is this /usr/share/doc deleting hack17:46
divVerentbut why is it then in the .deb in the first place?17:46
divVerentwhy not build the .debs with that stuff removed?17:47
rikaneedivVerent: they didn't patch the packager to do so17:47
rikaneeinstead, it's done by a postinst cleanup script17:47
divVerentah, and debsums doesn't apply the root to absolute symlinks17:48
divVerentexplaining some other missing filles17:48
divVerentthat is unfortunate17:48
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divVerentso, restarting with sshfs now using -o transform_symlinks17:49
divVerentrikanee: that sounds stupid17:50
divVerentshouldn't one rather do this on the build server creating the .debs?17:50
rikaneedivVerent: just one hack in the pile of hacks that is Maemo17:50
divVerentthat part should be fixable on the upload server, though17:51
rikaneeideally, it should be done as a config option in every single package17:51
divVerentin a Debian world, yes, but that is asking too much17:51
divVerentmaintainers having to fix every single package to not installing docs, I do understand why that is asking too much17:51
divVerentbut it isn't hard to unpack a .deb, remove the doc files AND their references in the file list, then repack it17:51
divVerentin a Debian world, packages with "big" doc already solve this by splitting it up in foo and foo-doc packages17:52
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divVerentdo I really WANT to see that debsums report...17:57
divVerentdebsums: missing file /mnt/usr/share/man/man1/aseqdump.1.gz (from alsa-utils package)17:57
divVerentso the ALSA MIDI crap is compiled in17:57
divVerenteasily wastes 500kb...17:57
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eddyb9I want to install g++-4.6 and I need libc6-dev and that also needs linux-kernel-headers18:01
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eddyb9the only way I can find to get these packages is to search for them and uses to get a direct link18:02
eddyb9oooh I see, the pool thing confused me. so I am indeed looking at the freemantle free sdk repo18:03
eddyb9yay installing with the new repos18:11
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eddyb9I wanted C++ mostly for installing fish18:12
divVerentDocScrutinizer05: I see the issue with debsums again18:12
divVerentright, it is in Perl - and starts with a screenful of "use" statements18:13
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divVerentno chance to port that to Maemo... even if you do succeed, you need like 10 more packagves18:13
DocScrutinizer05ugh backlog, tl;dr18:13
divVerentI have up running debsums over this pipe... does take way too long18:14
divVerentwill do it when my real PC is there... which has big enough disk to run a debian chroot :)18:14
DocScrutinizer05divVerent: you're aware that we, when pondering how to add karma from IRC, conisdered to give *negative* karma for more than 3 consecutive posts from same guy without anybody answering?18:15
divVerentno, was not aware... I normally prefer to break lines early18:16
DocScrutinizer05users tend to ignore long monologues18:16
DocScrutinizer05(I know I'm not the one who's always aware of that truth either)18:17
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divVerentanyway, now trying to run debsums on my eeepc... which runs Arch linux though18:18
divVerentit looks like File::FnMatch isn't even packaged for Arch18:19
eddyb9apt-get dist-upgrade with that sdk repo wants to remove most of my packages :(18:20
divVerentno, it heavily assumes to be able to call the dpkg binary18:21
divVerenteddyb9: known issue, don't dist-upgrade18:21
divVerentbut normally dist-upgrade just fails resolving conflicts at all :)18:21
eddyb9I want to switch over to a cssu (maybe thumb) repo18:21
divVerentoh, THAT is not to be done via dist-upgrade anyway18:22
divVerentplease undo your previous reposiotry adding18:22
divVerentand follow the documentation on cssu/cssu-thumb directly18:22
divVerentit works totally different18:22
eddyb9what do you mean?18:22
divVerentyou are supposed to use some .install file18:22
eddyb9how different?18:22
divVerentwhich then will graphically bring your system to CSSU18:22
divVerentvia HAM18:22
divVerentif you do it just by apt means, it won't do some reconfiguring required by the upgrade18:23
eddyb9but that uses apt sources, doesn't it?18:23
divVerentnot only that18:23
eddyb9well, ham wasn't doing anything last time I tried18:23
eddyb9maybe it was, but this darn debian crap isn't transparent enough18:24
eddyb9apt-get is so bad compared to zypper, and aptitude doesn't do much better18:24
divVerentyou just aren't supposed to add a repository at all for this18:25
divVerentyou install a specific file you get on the page explaining CSSU (don't have the link here)18:25
divVerentthis will add the repository, and set up some other stuff18:25
divVerentalso, there is a so-called CSSU Enabler you will have to run18:26
divVerentsee the step by step instructions18:26
eddyb9but it's not transparent and I can't even see what happened afterwards18:26
divVerentyou can read the scripts18:26
divVerentit indeed is not transparent18:26
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divVerentyou should just do it like the docs say18:26
eddyb9sudo zypper se | grep thumb18:26
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eddyb9that would tell me which packages are thumb18:27
infobotcssu is probably
eddyb9or with -s, I can also see which packages have thumb versions that aren't installed18:27
DocScrutinizer05maemo doesn't work like any other usual debian distro, when it comes to repostiories and package management18:28
DocScrutinizer05not like any RPM based distro either18:29
eddyb9so it's even worse. I like to know what state my packages are in18:29
DocScrutinizer05loom into HAM and there on "uninstall" - all packages meant to maybe get uninstalled by user are listed there18:30
DocScrutinizer05that'S about as much as you can get to know about 2state of packages"18:30
eddyb9if a package gets a thumb version after I do this, I can't just automatically upgrade to that18:30
DocScrutinizer05plus of course there's apt-cache policy18:30
eddyb9also ham is the slowest thing ever18:31
DocScrutinizer05well, there's some reason for that18:31
DocScrutinizer05it does stuff apt-get doesn't18:31
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DocScrutinizer05there's usually nothing wrong in apr-get install18:32
DocScrutinizer05but you never should touch any of the other apt-get commands18:32
DocScrutinizer05as a rule of thumb (except apt-get update ;-D )18:32
DocScrutinizer05and you should also never edit the catalog/repo files directly18:33
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eddyb9I changed sources.list to add the sdk repos18:34
DocScrutinizer05BZZZ already a mistake18:34
rikaneeeddyb9, DANGER! DANGER!18:34
DocScrutinizer05even two mistakes18:34
DocScrutinizer05sdk repo isn't meant for target platform18:35
DocScrutinizer05you might replace maemo5 core stuff by emulations for scratchbox/qemu18:35
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eddyb9but I wanted g++18:36
eddyb9and you can't install it without sdk18:36
rikaneeeddyb9: do it in a chroot18:36
rikaneeGCC doesn't like being optified18:37
DocScrutinizer05well, then build a proper deb pkg on SDK, with all dependencies, and install it on N90018:37
eddyb9gcc works fine, but g++ has a broken secondary dependency18:38
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eddyb9which is like bad package maintenance18:38
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eddyb9why does everyone screw up linux on mobile?18:40
ShadowJKThe sdk repo is not compatible with device repos18:56
divVerenteddyb9: because they can18:57
ShadowJKI wish someone would package gcc though, compile it with --prefix=/opt/gcc/ or something :)18:57
divVerentwhy doesn't any real linux distro make a mobile OS?18:57
divVerent(no, Ubuntu Phone does not count, that is still Android)18:57
eddyb9ubuntu are doing the craziest shit19:05
Sc0rpiuswhy an Ubuntu Phone is still Android?????19:05
eddyb9Sc0rpius: because they cheated19:06
eddyb9and maybe lied19:06
eddyb9openSUSE has releases for ARM boards, and I wouldn't be surprised if I could get it working on N900, but the nokia closed source stuff would be a PITA19:07
Sc0rpiusI still don't get why people say Ubuntu Phones are Androids when they are clearly not19:08
eddyb9you clearly not know the crap canonical is doing19:10
Sc0rpiusNOBODY knows19:10
Sc0rpiusthere are just rumors19:10
Sc0rpiusnobody has seen an Ubuntu phone so nobody knows how they really are19:12
Sc0rpiusand people is way misinformed19:12
Sc0rpiuspeople say "Ubuntu phones can't make calls right now"19:12
Sc0rpiusWHICH Ubuntu phone if there is NONE available19:12
Sc0rpiusCanonical already said by the end of March they are going to show a fully-functional phone19:13
Sc0rpiusTHAT'S NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!19:13
Sc0rpiusDON'T YOU EVER confuse Ubuntu for Android with Ubuntu Phone!!19:13
Sc0rpiusUbuntu for Android is something you can install in Android phones19:13
eddyb9oh my, aren't you mad19:13
Sc0rpiusUbuntu Phone is a whole new device with NATIVE Linux running on it and NO JAVA19:13
Sc0rpiusI knew you were misinformed.19:14
GeneralAntillesExcept there's no Ubuntu Phone yet19:14
GeneralAntillesSo how can you know?19:14
Sc0rpiusthose are my lines!!19:14
Sc0rpiusand that's not a Samsung running Ubuntu for Android (a total different SOFTWARE product)19:15
GeneralAntillesYeah, I'll believe it all when I see it.19:15
GeneralAntillesCanonical being Canonical19:15
Sc0rpiusyeah well everybody said the same about Jolla and Jolla showed their phone19:15
Sc0rpiusnow it's Canonical's turn19:15
Sc0rpiusthey will show the phone19:15
Sc0rpiushave you see polls? worldwide people is more likely to support an Ubuntu phone (known brand, etc) than a Jolla phone19:15
eddyb9between the weasel words it says android19:15
Sc0rpiuseddyb9, now that's the link you  should be reading :)19:16
eddyb9it's obvious what they're doing19:16
Sc0rpiusit is NOT Android.19:16
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eddyb9ubuntu for android is a subpage of that19:16
Sc0rpiusit's a different product19:16
eddyb9they're running a mutated linux on top of android19:16
Sc0rpiusthat's the Ubuntu for Android which you can install since ages in your Android phone19:17
eddyb9you'll see19:17
Sc0rpiusthat exists since AGES19:17
Sc0rpiusit's not the same thing19:17
Sc0rpiusUbuntu Phone uses a whole different OS called Ubuntu Touch19:17
Sc0rpiusUbuntu for Android runs on a phone running Android.  It's an APP, it's not a whole OS.  It's just an app19:17
eddyb9loool wtf?19:18
Sc0rpiusbefore June 1st Canonical will show the phone19:18
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Sc0rpiusUbuntu for Android is like that EasyDebian in the N90019:19
Sc0rpiusexactly the same19:19
Sc0rpiusbut for Android phones of course19:19
eddyb9ubuntu, using Qt?19:19
* eddyb9 popcorn19:19
Sc0rpiusyes.  The Ubuntu Phone using Ubuntu Touch OS uses Qt.19:19
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eddyb9but won't they get all the hate in the world as they are the largest gnome userbase?19:20
Sc0rpiushaving the "ubuntu" name on it, it's pretty unlikely it'll get hate19:21
Sc0rpiusexcept for purist geeks19:21
GeneralAntillesI don't think Canonical actually has a device19:21
Sc0rpiusand let's be hones purist geeks is like 0.056% of the potential buyers.19:21
GeneralAntillesThey're chasing OEMs19:21
eddyb9lol, purist geeks19:22
eddyb9and ubuntu in the name19:22
GeneralAntillesAnd their hardware support has some relation to linhybris.19:22
eddyb9they want to abuse android drivers19:22
Sc0rpiusmaybe they'll show the OS in an existing device19:22
eddyb9of course they will19:22
Sc0rpiusbut not OVER Android19:23
Sc0rpiustotally replacing it instead.19:23
eddyb9that's what it says on the front page, between the weasel words19:23
eddyb9not totally19:23
Sc0rpiusAndroid hardware without dalvik VM = WIN19:23
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eddyb9good luck getting QML JITed19:25
Sc0rpiusit is not running Java...19:25
eddyb9not sure what QtScript is using right now behind the scenes19:25
Sc0rpiusyou're just being stubborn and hateful against something you have yet to see19:25
Sc0rpiuswe need to be open19:25
eddyb9QML is JavaScript19:26
Sc0rpiusopen to Jolla, open to Ubuntu Phone19:26
eddyb9with some syntax changes19:26
Sc0rpiusit is JavaScript based but it is not JavaScript.19:26
eddyb9I know because I use kde4. I like Qt, and if anything good comes out of this ubuntu fuckup is a win for Qt19:26
Sc0rpiusthe thing is, like I said in the forums19:27
Sc0rpiusJolla is destined to die if the software companies don't support it19:27
eddyb9yes and they use a JS engine19:27
Sc0rpiusbut they will blindly support something that has "ubuntu" on it19:27
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eddyb9let me check exactly which one19:27
eddyb9Sc0rpius: that's almost as bad as windows mobile19:27
eddyb9I don't want support for a shitty linux distro, I want generic support19:28
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Sc0rpiusI know you want a Linux distro but19:28
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: are you available for a short test?19:28
Sc0rpiusif you're objective a Windows Phone is great for the general phone user19:28
Sc0rpius(not for the geek)19:28
Sc0rpiusand Windows Phone have support, every app exists for Windows Phone19:28
Sc0rpiuswill every app exist for Jolla? I doubt it will get a WhatsApp.19:29
eddyb9we can't have progress without hackers19:29
Sc0rpiusI doubt it will get an Instagram19:29
ShadowJKinstagram doesn't exist on windows phone ;-)19:29
Sc0rpiusand those kind of apps are the apps that make the phone sell19:29
Sc0rpiusand if the phone don't sell, the phone dies,.19:29
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; well, at bbq party with refreshments19:29
eddyb9fuck consumerism19:29
Sc0rpiusthere's something called Itsdagram for Windows Phone hehehe19:30
Sc0rpiuswhich is a fully functional Instagram client19:30
Sc0rpiuseddyb9, we're talking about a business19:30
Sc0rpiusand Jolla wants to make a business out of it19:30
Sc0rpiusnot just make happy 50.000 geeks around the world19:30
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Sc0rpiuswhen there are 500 million iOS devices around the world <--- that's the number they want19:31
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Sc0rpiusthat's the number everybody wants (even Ubuntu Phones)19:31
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eddyb9you don't start a revolution like that19:32
eddyb9silly silly half-assed penguins19:32
Sc0rpiusif Jolla knows something about this is that if they make a phone 100% targetted to geeks they will be out of business in less than a year19:33
Sc0rpiuslike the N900/N919:33
Sc0rpiusthey have to make something good for both worlds: the geeks and the average phone user19:33
Sc0rpiusthat's why by the way they have to ditch hardware keyboard.19:33
ruskiethey are somewhat dodgy when talking about a keyboarded jolla device19:33
Sc0rpiuseven if we would love a hardware keyboard, that would cut the sells in 75%19:33
Sc0rpiusthey know they have to ditch the keyboard.19:34
eddyb9o_O QML switched to v819:34
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ruskiethere apparently is some work being done on "other half" for a keyboard option19:34
eddyb9which means crazy fast even on ARM19:34
Sc0rpiusthe device won't be appealing with a hardware keyboard.19:34
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Sc0rpiusI want the hardware keyboard19:34
Sc0rpiusbut I know it's very unlikely.19:34
ruskieI don't really see why it wouldn't be appealing with a HW kb19:35
ruskieif done correctly it could be good19:35
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Sc0rpiusask your 15 years old daughter if she would want one with a hw keyboard19:35
eddyb9wait, what, they're replacing v8?19:35
Sc0rpiusand the way she thinks, it's the way 500 millions iOS users think, and you want to sell your phone to 500 million users.19:35
ruskieSc0rpius, if I had one the most shou would have would be a nokia s40 device19:36
Sc0rpiusshe would say "I want an iPhone 5" :/ like all teenagers say.19:36
ruskieunless she bought it with her own money19:36
ruskieSc0rpius, not really19:36
ruskieSc0rpius, someone's kid in this building bought a lumia19:36
ruskie~15 or so years old19:36
Sc0rpiusLumia's are GREAT19:36
Sc0rpius(for kids)19:36
Sc0rpiusdude I saw a Nokia Lumia 920 in action19:36
Sc0rpiusand it's great for those kids19:37
Sc0rpiusbut then you install SSH client19:37
Sc0rpiusyou connect19:37
Sc0rpiusyou switch application let's say somebody messaged you19:37
Sc0rpius---- connection dropped19:37
Sc0rpiusand that sucks.19:37
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ruskiewell atleast with android that has a chance of surviving19:37
Sc0rpiussince there's no real multitasking and not even event handlers for sockets they can't stay connected19:37
Sc0rpiuseverything has to be coded "push oriented"19:37
Sc0rpiusthey save hours of battery like that19:37
Sc0rpiusbut that frustrates me19:37
eddyb9what's wrong with a device where you can use the hw keyboard, but it's optional?19:38
ruskieabsolutely nothing19:38
Sc0rpiusyou'll have to carry the keyboard around = annoying19:38
ruskieif they can make the "other half" a sliding keyboard option it would be fantastinc I'd say19:38
Sc0rpiusunless it's something you can dock in the device19:38
eddyb9carry around the keyboard?19:39
ruskieSc0rpius, you are aware they have this "other half" thingy with jolla19:39
ruskiebasically a custom back cover19:39
Sc0rpiusyeah they invade twitter with "other half" ads19:39
ruskieI'd say a keyboard for that isn't out of the question19:39
eddyb9N900 only needs to be slimmer19:39
Sc0rpiusif they find an appealing way to do it, I hope they will.19:39
eddyb9and it's already touch or hw kb19:39
eddyb9what would be wrong with a slimmer N900?19:40
eddyb9there's this "leaked" design for the succesor of N9, best phone I've ever seen19:40
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eddyb9the keyboard is non-intrusive19:42
eddyb9what would be wrong with that?19:42
ruskiethat looks nice19:42
ruskieI'd grab one of those19:42
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eddyb9seriously, more design, less corporate crap (like closed source), less forced user pleasing19:42
eddyb9the things geeks would like also affect a large share of the market, but less visibly19:43
eddyb9android is kinda good because it gives you more freedom (if rooted) and even if I despise Java, the dalvik thing is working good for them19:44
eddyb9if I could do everything I've ever wanted (or at least the simple things), the world would be a better place :-<19:45
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eddyb9I know how to run windows phone apps alongside android and native PC linux apps19:46
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Sc0rpiusthat Lauta is nice19:47
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Apiceddyb9: The World _is_ a good Place, just the _People_ suck.19:47
eddyb9it needs some work, but less work than each of those platforms needs19:47
eddyb9I've been knowing some magic for a while now, and I've been trying to do some things, like break crypto (that failed and is postponed until NP=P), write an web IDE or a decompiler19:49
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eddyb9the last one is the current one, but I have a track record of not finishing things and also being crappy at doing more than a week of work in the time of a few months19:50
Sc0rpiusdecompiler for what?19:50
eddyb9everything executable19:50
Sc0rpiusgood luck with that19:50
eddyb9best choice right now is to spend $4k for IDA Pro and HexRays, which are useless most of the time19:51
Sc0rpiusIDA pro is great19:51
divVerenteddyb9: you do know that you can solve any NP problem in polynomial time by making use of Moore's Law?19:51
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Sc0rpiusI've been using it for ages, specially for ARM19:51
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Sc0rpiusIDA is not a decompiler, but a disassembler/debugger, not the same thing19:51
eddyb9hexrays claims to be19:52
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eddyb9but they're both crap19:52
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Sc0rpiusall decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++19:52
Sc0rpiussince it really depends on the compiler how you can decompile things19:53
eddyb9I had a x86 backend in a couple of days, and in another few days I had working stack analysis19:53
eddyb9which IDA doesn't have19:53
eddyb9Sc0rpius: common misconception19:53
Sc0rpiusnow a decompiler for Android or .NET (like Windows Phone apps) will show perfect codes but there are already way too many decompilers for that19:53
Sc0rpiuswell I'm not sure if you know how compilers work19:54
eddyb9that's because those have bytecode formats that require type information19:54
Sc0rpiusbut at least you should agree that a single C line of code will be assembled different in gcc compared to other compiler19:54
eddyb9it will be assembled differently in different versions of gcc19:55
Sc0rpiusa decompiler would have to guess which compiler was used and guess what was the original C line19:55
Sc0rpiusand if you use -O options in gcc19:55
eddyb9and in the same version with different optimization levels19:55
eddyb9ok, you're not dumb, but I'm slow because xchat on N90019:55
eddyb9but the thing is...19:56
eddyb9the processor will do similar operations no matter the compiler19:56
eddyb9or the platform19:56
eddyb9you only have a problem if you have legacy disasm, which is what IDA gives you for two thousand dollars19:57
Sc0rpiuswell since most people that use IDA don't use it for legal reasons most people don't get IDA in legal ways ;)19:58
eddyb9if I wasn't this fucked up with school & stuff, I would've had a web interface with more of C-like output, already19:58
Sc0rpiuslike Bill Gates said (or shoud have said919:59
Sc0rpius"assembler ought to be enough for everybody"19:59
Sc0rpiusso you don't really need a decompiler20:00
eddyb9so you're ignorant20:00
eddyb9wIDE would be finished already, too. awesome code manipulation :-<20:01
Sc0rpiusan ignorant because I can read assembler and don't need C code?20:01
Sc0rpiusI've been cracking software since I'm 8 years old and I'm almost 40!20:01
Sc0rpiuseven before x86 processors were out20:02
eddyb9you're ignorant because you think you can do things in assembly20:02
Sc0rpiusdisassembling for Z80, MC6502, MC6809E, etc the real processors at the time :)20:02
Sc0rpiusI can20:02
Sc0rpiuswant a demo?20:02
eddyb9I'll give you a binary20:02
Sc0rpiusI can show you an uTorrent with several new options everything done in assembler.20:02
Sc0rpiusand actually the original uTorrent executable was encrypted.20:03
eddyb9find me where it reads a .lyc file and tell me what it does with it20:03
eddyb9hah, encrypted20:03
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Sc0rpiusyou NEVER recompile and executable you want to modify20:03
Sc0rpiusyou patch it in assembler, always.20:03
Sc0rpiusactually introducing the op code in an hex editor, not really "assembling"20:04
eddyb9patching is easy20:04
eddyb9figuring out where to patch can be hard20:04
Sc0rpiusif you have unobfuscated/unencrypted code: yes20:04
eddyb9you go through 4 levels of factories and vtables20:05
Sc0rpiusthe problem comes when the executables are encrypted20:05
eddyb9without a decompiler to help you20:05
eddyb9encryption is a minor annoyance20:05
eddyb9as they always need to be decrypted by something to work20:05
eddyb9same for unpackers20:06
Sc0rpiusbut if you need C code20:07
Sc0rpiusthen there must be something wrong in you20:07
Sc0rpiusreading assembler is more than enough if you're a real cracked20:07
eddyb9no it isn't20:07
eddyb9it's actually trivial to screw with you20:08
eddyb9a few characters of C code can generate more than a hundred instructions with -O320:08
Sc0rpiusdo you really think the people that are patching games and software for PC everyday are using decompilers?20:09
eddyb9mix in some real operations in there and you'll need a blackboard20:09
Sc0rpiusbecause they aren't.20:09
eddyb9they're using shitty stuff like hexrays and they're miserable20:09
Sc0rpiusthey don't use hexrays.20:09
Sc0rpiusthey don't even use IDA if it's x86.20:09
Sc0rpiusthey use something called ollydbg20:09
eddyb9lol that older PoS20:10
Sc0rpiusstill unbeatable in Windows :)20:10
Sc0rpiusnot even by IDA20:10
eddyb9I reverse engineered the Battle.Net2 protocol in one day with IDA20:10
eddyb9found out how much it sucks20:10
eddyb9and I know a community of real reverse engineers, I know for sure there's a need for a real decompiler20:11
Sc0rpiusI don't think so.20:11
Sc0rpiusunless it's a higher level language like .NET or Java but there are already way too many decompilers for that.20:11
eddyb9why am I even talking to you...20:12
divVerentollydbg is a debugger, but not a full flow analyzing disassembler20:13
eddyb9because of people like you, we don't have tools20:13
divVerentdifferent tools,different purpose20:13
Sc0rpiuseddyb9, we don't need them20:13
divVerentused ollydbg a lot even for open source20:13
divVerentbecause windows' own crash reports suck20:14
Sc0rpiusthat's why they don't exist20:14
eddyb9you don't need them20:14
divVerentbut telling people to use ollydbg and make screenshot tends to help20:14
Sc0rpiusollydbg is great20:14
DocScrutinizer05and because of statemements like this, we have no calm and productive mood in IRC channels20:14
Sc0rpiusI still use it20:14
eddyb9you go ahead and find vulns in chromium. in assembly20:14
Sc0rpiuswhy would I?20:14
Sc0rpiusthey won't pay me a single cent for that20:14
eddyb9then shut up20:15
Sc0rpiusI don't think you understand how the world works20:15
DocScrutinizer05eddyb9: behave!20:15
Sc0rpiusif there's a need -> then became the solution, not backwards20:15
divVerentalso, I doubt a good decompiler for modern compiled C will ever exist20:15
divVerentbut if anyone wants to try, I won't stop them20:15
Sc0rpiusdivVerent, it's not possible is the first thing I said20:15
divVerentit may be POSSIBLE20:16
divVerentbrute force any possible C files, compile with all possible flags, compare :)20:16
eddyb9divVerent: I'm not talking "I want source code" decompilation20:16
Sc0rpius<Sc0rpius> all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++20:16
eddyb9I'm talking practical decompilation20:16
divVerentbut current C/C++ compilers do so crazy optimizations20:16
Sc0rpiusyou would have like a library of all compilers behaviors somehow coded in your decompiler.20:16
divVerentit's near impossible to get back to even similar source20:16
eddyb9most of the optimizations are easy to revert20:16
divVerentbut if anyone succeeds, it'd be very interesting20:16
Sc0rpiusand that's why I insist:20:17
Sc0rpius<Sc0rpius> good luck with that20:17
Sc0rpiusbut now swaying there's a NEED for a C/C++ decompiler... that's wrong.20:17
divVerentthere is more need of a nice annotating disassembler20:18
divVerentthat not just does what IDA does20:18
Sc0rpiusI agree20:18
divVerentbut also shows explanations of obscure instructions20:18
divVerentbasically IDA + google20:18
Sc0rpiussaying there's a need of a C/C++ decompiler only shows lack of experience in assembly, that's all.20:18
eddyb9academics and people who do RE for a living agree with me20:18
Sc0rpiusget more experience, practice more, read more.  Buy books.20:18
eddyb9divVerent: I already have something much better than that20:18
eddyb9Sc0rpius: but a human can fail20:18
Sc0rpiusthe decompiler will fail more :)20:19
eddyb9ISAs are quite complex, and malware writers abuse this a lot20:19
eddyb9the decompiler won't fail20:20
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eddyb9instruction set architecture20:20
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eddyb9IDA (and disassemblers in general) can't even tell you if a function ever returns20:22
eddyb9or where it can return20:22
ApicSo Live-Debugging is to prefer.20:23
ApicBut IDA does have a Debugger integrated also since quite some Time.20:23
eddyb9but you can't debug everything20:23
Sc0rpiuswell back to Yappari, which by the way was created reversing official WhatsApp clients.20:23
Sc0rpiusso bbl20:23
eddyb9you can do so many things with executable code20:23
eddyb9it's just silly to throw away the potential20:24
eddyb9a free, open-source, decompiler20:24
eddyb9not perfect, but correct20:24
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eddyb9with a clean, easy to interact with, interface20:25
eddyb9if only I wasn't this big fuckup that never gets anything done20:26
eddyb9and I may fail this year of highschool because geography (geopolitic crap, mostly)20:26
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divVerentYou know what we need a LOT MORE than a C decompiler?20:31
divVerenta C binary vs source code comparer :)20:31
divVerentto see if gcc screwed up again20:31
divVerenthaha, a "not perfect, but correct" decompiler is also known as disassembler... just change every "mov a, b" into "a = b;"20:33
ApicI love Assembly.20:34
divVerentin fact, for QuakeC I wanted to make such a thing... I already have a binary analyzer that does quite some static analysis, detect unused/uninitialized values, etc.20:34
divVerentand it prints out QCVM assembly... I did want to write a second output that transforms the instruction 1:1 into QC20:35
divVerentso the analyzer is also useful to people who don't want to learn in which argument order STORE_F works :)20:35
Sc0rpiusso you want a translator20:36
Sc0rpiusand that would be cool if it's multiprocessor20:37
Sc0rpiusthat is translate assembly code from several processors to a standard "more human readable" code20:37
Sc0rpiusnot necessary C20:37
divVerentthe main issue why people want a decompiler is that Intel assembly got so convoluted20:37
Sc0rpiussomething more easily to understand20:37
divVerentespecially the MMX/SSE instructions can get quite obscure20:37
Sc0rpiusthat would be nice20:37
Sc0rpiusyou define a standard "assembly" code human readable with things like "a = b" and stuff20:37
Sc0rpiusand then you make translators for x86, ARM, etc to THAT standard human code you just defined20:38
Sc0rpiusthat's a very good idea20:38
divVerenteven better if it has some heuristics to read SSE code, e.g. notices dot products and matrix multiplications20:38
Sc0rpiusof course it will not be a 1 instruction = 1 line of code20:38
Sc0rpiusbut something like 10 MMX instructions = 1 line of simple human readable math code20:38
Sc0rpiusthat's a very good idea20:39
divVerenteven 1:1 would work20:39
Sc0rpiusyeah but simple loops would be nice to be read as "fors" and "whiles" and the like20:40
ApicI love QEMU20:41
ApicEmulators in general20:41
ApicDosBox rules too20:41
Sc0rpiusthese very lines I'm typing are being sent through an X-Chat running on a VMWare VM with Ubuntu 12.04.01 full screen in the second monitor of a Windows 8 host20:42
* Sc0rpius runs both worlds at the same time20:42
ApicI type inside a UserModeLinux-VM20:45
divVerenteven 1:1 would work20:48
DocScrutinizer05divVerent: ooh! "a = b" is not assembler?20:50
DocScrutinizer05Well, maybe not ARM assembler20:50
kerioSc0rpius: neat idea20:51
keriowe could call it C20:51
divVerentDocScrutinizer05: look at id software's quake code20:53
divVerenttheir compiler was so buggy, theybasiclaly wrote in C-like assembler20:53
divVerentonly one operation in each line20:53
divVerent just look at this function20:57
divVerentand observe two bugs right at the top (the normalize() call is a bug too, as QuakeC has no pass by reference)20:57
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divVerentDocScrutinizer05: probably list of all changed files:
divVerentI don't see anything autodisconnect related here yet21:18
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divVerentbut some things are weird21:18
Sc0rpiusI would really see promoting to extras-testing work :(21:18
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DocScrutinizer05[techstaff notice] we're cleaning up a huuuuge db table, and that blocks www.m.o and possibly other services too. Sorry for the inconventience22:16
DocScrutinizer05(if you're interested: purging 25mio records from repligard table, keeping 9mio)22:17
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DocScrutinizer05[techstaff notice] the sql commands been too mighty, blocking our db for undefined extended periods of time. So we aborted the job and will restart it later when we found a way to "renice" it22:37
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