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| darodi | hi guys | 00:45 |
|---|---|---|
| darodi | i was planning to migrate from multiboot to u-boot... then i read this http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1344957&postcount=2 | 00:46 |
| darodi | It's totaly useless when booted from u-boot (no wifi, battery meter, charging...) | 00:46 |
| darodi | is it true? any one with nitroid switched to uboot here? | 00:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | darodi: | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >> | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | To instal kernel you have to: | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mount /home /and | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | first | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | << | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no more to say. All that stuff looks completely gibberish to me. I don't think I could install anything useful following those instructions, and I usually know my way around unix/linux | 01:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alas I can't help about your original question, since I never touched nitdroid - sorry. Installing uBoot on N900 is not that hard, it even tries to convert/migrate existing multiboot/bootmenu entries | 01:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | God gracious, this stuff makes my eyes bleed! | 01:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bzip2 -d N12_UMay.tar.bz2 cd / | 01:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | mount /home /and | 01:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cd /and | 01:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | despite the whole thing is tagged "PHP code:" I think they really mean it | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the bzip and mount parameters make no sense to me | 01:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except somebody did a damn good job to obfuscate stuff | 01:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wouldn't hope bzip2 takes a COMMAND "cd" as parameter | 01:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and I never heard of a device /and you could mount to /home, for whatever purpose | 01:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | if that's a bindmount that it should need more parameters | 01:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | at least --bind | 01:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even worse, mount syntax is >>mount [-fnrsvw] [-t vfstype] [-o options] device dir<< so the device was /home which for sure is no device on any linux I ever seen | 01:45 |
| rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: perhaps that's why people have been filling up their rootfses? | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol, I can't even figure what might happen when trying to follow that instruction | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, have a look at this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1346033#post1346033 for a laugh or a cry, depending on your mood | 01:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | of course "cd" *might* be a filename for bzip2, but honestly who names his file "cd" ? | 01:51 |
| rikanee | sigh, that entire thread is just sad. | 01:51 |
| rikanee | ~rtfm | 01:51 |
| infobot | from memory, rtfm is Read The F*cking Manual (TM). It is a suggestion to do your homework before posting a question. Sometimes used as RTFM $SPECIFIC_MANUAL to refer to a specific source of information. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM | 01:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or it is a option parameter to bzip2 with a typo: -cd | 01:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | but then I'm afraid user wouldn't have any joy in watching the decompressed output spamming his stdout | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only explanation is that a newline is missing, but then the bzip2 cmd makes no sense without parameters | 01:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooor the whole shit is some extremely nifty PHP code indeed, that I simply fail to grok | 01:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in te end I'd fail to enter the green "/" anyway X-D | 01:54 |
| rikanee | DocScrutinizer05: they simply forgot to include exec(); | 01:54 |
| rikanee | ;) | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ohmy android. Too complicated for me ;-P | 01:57 |
| darodi | mount /home /and is just a bind as you say ...never seen that syntax before | 01:58 |
| darodi | i think i'll just remove nitdroid and go for uboot. i'm using maemo 99% of the time and just reboot to nitdroid when my wife desesperately needs to play a stupid game :P | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah, maybe get her a cheap droidfon | 02:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | darodi: make sure you boot to maemo, so multiboot cleans up its shit | 02:04 |
| darodi | well... she also has a n900 with a gamegripper but pollutes mine with nitdroid :)) | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (proper kernel modules and kernel flashed - yes, multiboot *flashes* kernel on each boot) | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then you should have no problems installing most recent uBoot | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and if you're lucky, uBoot will be able to boot into android on uSD out of the box | 02:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if not, I think the tweaks needed to uBoot config files and maybe android fs on uSD are minimal | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you might need to get the kernel uimage of android kernel and put it somewhere from where uBoot can load it | 02:08 |
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| darodi | are there pre-made uimage already or do i need to convert the vmlinuz kernel to uimage? | 02:14 |
| darodi | i'll have a look in the nitdroid forums | 02:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | there are pre-built uimages for about everything | 02:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ask Pali, he should know a lot more about all that stuff - after all he's maintainer of uBoot | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, lemme try sth... | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~uboot | 02:24 |
| infobot | N900 uBoot is a siamese twin binary [uBoot+stockMaemoKernel] that resides in kernel NAND partition /dev/mtd3 aka "kernel". You can't uninstall it, rather you'll nuke it when you flash/install another kernel like stock maemo kernel or powerkernel. To start other than stock maemo kernel via uBoot, you have to provide the according kernel image files | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmpf, thought there might be an URL to a proper wiki/tmo page about uBoot and how-to-install | 02:25 |
| Pali | if you put linux (z)image to /boot or /opt/boot it will be automatically converted to uimage format by u-boot-update-bootmenu | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wow | 02:25 |
| Pali | and stored in MyDocs | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | scary :-> | 02:25 |
| darodi | Pali: thanks for the info | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: seems Nokia never will fix that signing key issue | 02:29 |
| Pali | did you got any new email? | 02:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: should we get rip-offs of the Nokia repos and publish a tool to patch the catalogs? | 02:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no new mail | 02:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe even a fiasco image with patched catalogs list | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the run our own core repos | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then* | 02:30 |
| darodi | Pali: i have cssuthumb and kp 51 in nand right now. should i reboot to omap1 before uninstalling multiboot? | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ohohoh | 02:31 |
| Pali | 15.5 I got email from Mikko that he going to fix it | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-o | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | darodi: a thumbified system will crash on a non-thumb-enabled kernel | 02:31 |
| darodi | that's what i thought | 02:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alas uBoot comes with stock kernel | 02:32 |
| darodi | uhmf | 02:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so installing uBoot on a thombified system is quite tricky - you easily end in a reboot loop | 02:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you basically have to make sure that your uBoot can boot from a powerkernel uimage before you install uBoot | 02:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise you end up with a system with uBoot and stock kernel that can't boot up to fix it any easy way | 02:34 |
| Pali | I will write to Mikko if he is really going to fix it or not | 02:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | make sure you have the right "To:" ;-) | 02:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maybe add council to CC | 02:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for sure council wants to help on that issue | 02:36 |
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| darodi | DocScrutinizer05: so... to summarize | 03:26 |
| darodi | 1. uninstall multiboot | 03:26 |
| darodi | 2. install uboot | 03:26 |
| darodi | 3. upgrade kp51 to kp52 | 03:26 |
| darodi | 4. create bootmenu items | 03:26 |
| darodi | 5. run update boot menu | 03:26 |
| darodi | 6. reboot | 03:26 |
| darodi | i am right? | 03:26 |
| darodi | 0. backup everything :P | 03:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, to me that lloks good, but that doesn't mean a thing. I'm no expert | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though... upgrade KP nukes uBoot | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you need to install KP-uimage | 03:30 |
| darodi | that's what i meant with the point 3 | 03:32 |
| darodi | install uimages for kp and create valid bootmenu items | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the idea is that uBoot loads different uImages depending on kernel you want to boot. But the one "built-in" kernel that ships with uBoot is a stock maemo kernel that doesn't work with thumb. So you need the kp52-uimage in place before you install uBoot | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 03:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/install/flash/ | 03:34 |
| darodi | I guess I found something to do tomorrow | 03:35 |
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| darodi | thanks again DocScrutinizer05 | 03:48 |
| darodi | good night every one | 03:48 |
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| hell | hi, folks | 09:40 |
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| hell | does anybody affiliated with repository.maemo.org present? | 09:41 |
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| divVerent | before I waste 30minutes to code my own: is there already an "align to grid" tool for hildon-desktop? | 12:29 |
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| divVerent | if not - it looks like I'll do it as shell script then | 12:29 |
| joga | hmm, I think some theme manager thingy allowed to configure grid snap... | 12:34 |
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| joga | divVerent, I have something in Settings called Theme Customizer (I forget the package name), it allows to define the snap etc | 12:35 |
| divVerent | odd, as there is no gconf setting for that | 12:36 |
| divVerent | wonder where it sets that then :) | 12:37 |
| joga | dunno :) but I have it set on 8 pixels and when I drag stuff around they align themselves according to that | 12:37 |
| divVerent | OH, so maybe the snap size is part of the theme | 12:38 |
| divVerent | that'd explain why I don't find it in gconf | 12:38 |
| divVerent | thanks, that did it | 12:39 |
| divVerent | no snap to grid shell script then :) | 12:40 |
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| Macer | ok. i thought the old ibm mechanical keyboard was cool up until i realized how much noise it makes when you type | 12:50 |
| Macer | i wonder if i can find custom keys for it heh | 12:50 |
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| joga | some of my more special keyboards have this 'plunk' sound they make when you release a key, it sorta echoes inside it also | 12:58 |
| joga | hard to type quietly with those :) | 12:58 |
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| Apic | A wonderful splendid Towel Day. | 14:56 |
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| inz | dammit, didn't bring my towel | 14:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Apic: a wonderful (UGT) good morning | 16:14 |
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| Apic | tnx | 16:15 |
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| divVerent | BTW, just saw with NetStory... I need only about 100 MB per month of mobile traffic with the N900 | 16:31 |
| divVerent | by setting it to only use mobule internet when asked to | 16:31 |
| divVerent | good it has options to e.g. only | 16:32 |
| divVerent | check email on wifi automatically, and such | 16:32 |
| divVerent | iPhone in same usage pattern took about 500 MB | 16:32 |
| divVerent | 100 MB however only due to Opera's Turbo server... otherwise it'd be about 200 MB | 16:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but that usage pattern is mostly irrelevant to me, thanks xchat ;-) | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the whole idea and purpose behind irc and maemo unique awesome multitasking being the always-online aspect | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW the fact that I get audible and vibra notification on every highlight and inbound /query in realtime | 17:07 |
| divVerent | that would be too much for me... due to some other channels | 17:07 |
| divVerent | thing is, Maemo simply needs a lot less traffic than iOS | 17:08 |
| divVerent | because you have more control on what you enable and what not | 17:08 |
| divVerent | I also use AutoDisconnect, for example | 17:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the only optimization I could think of is a smart proxy that does the highlight detection serverside and thus buffers "irrelevant" traffic until a realtime "event" happens | 17:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: auto-disconnect is a poor idea and a terrible botch/hack that messes up your connectivity sooner or later | 17:09 |
| divVerent | messes up? | 17:09 |
| divVerent | I know it isn't really implemented right... but what is the worst that can happen? | 17:09 |
| divVerent | that it disconnects | 17:09 |
| divVerent | so what | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | being associated to aPN doesn't mean any increased power usage or traffic per se | 17:10 |
| divVerent | sure | 17:10 |
| divVerent | but it means that the next program wanting a data connection will ask me | 17:10 |
| divVerent | (or fail) | 17:10 |
| divVerent | AutoDisconnect's main issue is that its detection logic is flawed | 17:10 |
| divVerent | it checks once per $INTERVAL for the amount of traffic since start | 17:10 |
| divVerent | so if just at the end of $INTERVAL I open the browser... | 17:11 |
| divVerent | it may still disconnect me right after fetching some data | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I seen like half a million user complaints about mysterious defects in connectivity that were impossible to fix even by deinstallation of auto-disconnect -> reflash for those poor lads | 17:11 |
| divVerent | I can live with that though, it never hit me, but it's an obvious flaw nevertheless | 17:11 |
| divVerent | that I did not have yet | 17:11 |
| divVerent | what weird stuff does it do other than checking traffic amount and disconnecting? | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah it kicks in at random, eventually | 17:12 |
| divVerent | yes, it does kick in at random, by its flawed design... for the reason I described | 17:12 |
| divVerent | but that issue I can live with | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | auto-disconnect is messing with icd config and logic in a way that doesn't get deinstalled by postrm | 17:12 |
| divVerent | why would it even need to do that | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eventually icd breaks on that mess | 17:12 |
| divVerent | and do you have any other software to suggest for that purpose? | 17:13 |
| divVerent | all I REALLY want is automatic disconnection from GPRS/3G when locking | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry I never did an in-depth evaluation, just episodic wisdom | 17:13 |
| divVerent | also, if the bug is known, why isn't it fixed | 17:13 |
| divVerent | (the bug in postrm, that is) | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: for THAT I'd suggest dbus-scripting plus some smart dbus message to ICD2 | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~phone-control | 17:14 |
| divVerent | I wouldn't know which message, though | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~phonecontrol | 17:14 |
| divVerent | and on which event | 17:14 |
| infobot | from memory, phonecontrol is http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control | 17:14 |
| divVerent | but also | 17:14 |
| divVerent | now that I know postrm has a bug | 17:14 |
| divVerent | should I really dare to deinstall it? | 17:14 |
| divVerent | or would that even CAUSE issues due to now dangling references? | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah, deinstall of auto-disconnect is prone to COMPLETELY mess up stuff | 17:15 |
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| divVerent | why is it in extras BTW then | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, exactly | 17:15 |
| divVerent | if it is that broken | 17:15 |
| divVerent | shouldn't such stuff remain in extras-devel then? | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 17:15 |
| divVerent | I sure can't afford reflashing it | 17:16 |
| divVerent | it'd take me ages to get set up aghain | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | auto-disconect would be a fine candidate to join crappatch's fate | 17:16 |
| divVerent | EVEN with backup of all gconf stuff | 17:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | in my book | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alas I have no time to follow up on it | 17:16 |
| divVerent | actually... is there a tool that identifies all modified system files (including config), and creates a diff from the original version? :) | 17:16 |
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| divVerent | debsums is sort of that | 17:17 |
| divVerent | but not packaged for Maemo | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, you know the path to go... ;-D | 17:17 |
| divVerent | if I have the list of files modified from the original version, all else I need is the original .debs and diff | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seen your application | 17:17 |
| divVerent | yes, but it'd take me still a few weeks to be able to run the SDK | 17:17 |
| divVerent | I still only have my eeepc 701 | 17:17 |
| divVerent | and yes, debsums should be somewhat easy to port | 17:18 |
| divVerent | although the debian binary does not run on Maemo | 17:18 |
| divVerent | too many library dependencies for crypto hash stuff | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 17:18 |
| divVerent | but such libs tend to be quite portable | 17:18 |
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| divVerent | actually, if I had a Debian system here... I could run debsums remotely :) | 17:18 |
| divVerent | debsums can use another root, and sshfs exists | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you ask somebody with a proper system to run that stuff for you ;-D | 17:19 |
| divVerent | hehe | 17:19 |
| divVerent | actually | 17:19 |
| divVerent | debsums may be a good idea | 17:19 |
| divVerent | it may even find what AutoDisconnect screwed up | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, absolutel<y | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ping merlin1991! | 17:19 |
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| divVerent | once you know the file, it probably can be fixed by a few dpkg commands | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he might be very interested | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he also might be willing to help on getting debsums pkg built for maemo | 17:20 |
| divVerent | too bad it's still ugly to download every single .deb, and extract the one file to compare with | 17:20 |
| divVerent | also, I recently noticed that LOTS of stuff from community is not in the mp-community-*-pr metapackage | 17:20 |
| divVerent | not even apt is | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 17:21 |
| divVerent | or the notes app is not either | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's base package that comes by flashing | 17:21 |
| divVerent | I had wondered why my deborphan keepers file is so big :) | 17:21 |
| divVerent | I created it from a fresh install | 17:21 |
| divVerent | some of the packages in that list SURE don't look like I could safely remove them | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 17:21 |
| divVerent | so mp-*-pr does not protect all that should be protected from "accidental" removal | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why apt-get upgrade is forbidden (well, one of the reasons, and not really exactly fitting this case, but anyway) | 17:22 |
| divVerent | upgrade does not remove stuff | 17:22 |
| divVerent | you mean dist-upgrade :) | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 17:22 |
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| divVerent | but even dist-upgrade doesn't "just do" it | 17:22 |
| divVerent | it lists what it would do, and asks | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and auto-remove | 17:22 |
| divVerent | something one should ALWAYS read | 17:22 |
| divVerent | even on Ubuntu this broke stuff sometimes | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and other weird commands on apt cmdline | 17:22 |
| divVerent | like, I had it once want to remove bash on Ubuntu | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol | 17:23 |
| divVerent | autoremove is not even broken... | 17:23 |
| divVerent | it does what it is designed for... and its design is bad | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably deinstalled 90% of system | 17:23 |
| divVerent | it's equally bad on Debian | 17:23 |
| divVerent | just that Debian does a better job at marking packages "essential" | 17:23 |
| divVerent | which apt generally refuses to remove | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nokia been terribly lazy on dependcy-definitions | 17:24 |
| divVerent | I actually hate the autoremove function of packaging systems | 17:24 |
| divVerent | I mean, does it even do any good? | 17:24 |
| divVerent | I install stuff, try it out... and later want to remove it | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they cut edges there, assuming they were in full control of every PR that rolls out | 17:24 |
| divVerent | but when I installed like 50 crazy things to try out | 17:24 |
| divVerent | then I don't remember any more which they were | 17:24 |
| divVerent | so basically, I do not even WANT automatic marking as "wanted" when installing stuff | 17:25 |
| divVerent | I know you can tell apt to not do that, but the default is bad and leads to clutter in that list | 17:25 |
| divVerent | that's why I use debfoster/deborphan | 17:25 |
| divVerent | my workflow is to rather install lots of stuff | 17:25 |
| divVerent | try it out | 17:25 |
| divVerent | mark as good what I want to keep | 17:25 |
| divVerent | then remove all else | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you seem pretty savvy regarding that stuff | 17:25 |
| divVerent | using Debian, Ubuntu for ages... | 17:26 |
| divVerent | as for debsums, I will now try to run that over WLAN then Internet then my server :) | 17:26 |
| divVerent | the flash image isn't THAT big, so it may even work | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all it needs is a proper lesson on all the broken stuff in maemo packaging and we have a new maintainer ;-) | 17:26 |
| divVerent | isn't the lesson of what is NOT broken shorter? :) | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed ;-P | 17:26 |
| divVerent | regarding the phone control page... I was not into telephony much | 17:27 |
| divVerent | what is the difference between "ICD" and "ICD2" | 17:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | let's face it: apt never been meant to get used without HAM wrapper around it, on maemo | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think there is no difference, except lazy typing | 17:28 |
| divVerent | I somewhat doubt the HAM wrapper does it a lot better... it does other things worse | 17:28 |
| divVerent | is the icd2 documented anywhere? | 17:29 |
| divVerent | that bitmask field looks intriguing... like, can it be told to not touch wifi? :) | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (HAM) well, it adds another layer of abstraction, some filtering, and a new concept of traust/security | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | trust* | 17:29 |
| divVerent | ah, no | 17:29 |
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| divVerent | it is documented, and does nothing useful | 17:30 |
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| divVerent | they should rather have done this trust concept as part of apt | 17:30 |
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| divVerent | hm... "network type" is one of the args of that request. That sounds neat. | 17:30 |
| divVerent | so disconnect GPRS on lock is actually quite easy | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it sure is | 17:30 |
| divVerent | oh wait, also noticed something else | 17:31 |
| divVerent | I want to conserve battery life | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | would take me max 15 min to implement | 17:31 |
| divVerent | so maybe what I really want is to disconnect GPRS _and_ wifi as soon as I am on battery AND locked | 17:31 |
| divVerent | yes, probably | 17:31 |
| divVerent | only this checking for both things... is not that trivial using just dbus-script | 17:31 |
| divVerent | unless I store data in files, which I would not want to | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | get dbus-scripting pkg, run dbus-monitor and find out about the relevant events/messages, implement the dbus-scripting-script | 17:32 |
| divVerent | so I would rather want to check lock state and charging state... in worst case, using bnf's way, and lock is sure in the process table :) | 17:32 |
| divVerent | dbus-scripting however is somewhat stateless... or not? | 17:32 |
| divVerent | it nonly responds to messages | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why not store data in temporary files? | 17:32 |
| divVerent | but if I only want to react when TWO events are true, and no matter which one came last | 17:32 |
| divVerent | that is error prone :) | 17:32 |
| divVerent | I'd rather check the respective other state on each state change | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or, even better: find our about sttaes by more dbus messages or rads from sysfs? | 17:33 |
| divVerent | yes, that would be it | 17:33 |
| divVerent | just means more badly doucmented dbus stuff to figure out | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, my typing sucks today even worse than usually | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dbus-monitor is your friend | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and dbus-introspections (which is non-existant for all genuine nokia dbus objects >:-( ) | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | check out mdbus aka mickey#s dbus monitor | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | awesome | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tan expansion on dbus methods and addr | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tab* | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | based on introspection | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | AAAWEESOME! | 17:36 |
| divVerent | that is nice | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.google.de/search?q=mdbus+mickey | 17:37 |
| divVerent | 0root@v220120211684756499:~# debsums -r /mnt -l > no-md5sums.txt; debsums -r /mnt -c -a > changed-md5sums.txt | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc it's python! ;-) | 17:39 |
| divVerent | wonder how slow that will be :) | 17:39 |
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| divVerent | probably a few hours | 17:39 |
| divVerent | 1Mbit/s upstream | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you should get a proper account on a net box with some cpu grunt and fat backbone | 17:40 |
| divVerent | the server I use basically has that | 17:40 |
| divVerent | the 1MBit/s is the limit of my ADSL the N900 is connected to | 17:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | k | 17:41 |
| divVerent | all PC I have here is the eeepc with 4 GB SSD | 17:41 |
| divVerent | and 2 GB RAM | 17:41 |
| divVerent | a typical case where the rule "swap = 2 * ram" would be REALLY bad | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I finally should upload a complete virgin maemo5 fs to $somewhere | 17:41 |
| divVerent | so I used an alternate rule: "swap = 0" | 17:41 |
| rikanee | divVerent: 2GB RAM for a Linux system is a /lot/ | 17:42 |
| divVerent | yes | 17:42 |
| divVerent | but I sometimes used it | 17:42 |
| divVerent | I had to run Java stuff... | 17:42 |
| divVerent | typically in my daily use, up to 1GB get used | 17:42 |
| divVerent | some web sites eat a lot of RAM | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | don't ever try to run crazy PHP jobs on it! ;-) | 17:43 |
| rikanee | actually, unless I were to build/link large programs, e.g. Android/Firefox/Chrome/etc., I'd have swap off | 17:43 |
| divVerent | on SSD I never use swap... except on the N900 where it can't be avoided | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we got one on garage.m.o that used to use 5GB of ram, for nuttin | 17:43 |
| divVerent | but there I moved swap to an old micro SD card | 17:43 |
| divVerent | if it breaks from write cycles, so be it | 17:43 |
| divVerent | there is BTW a neat trick to "move" swap on N900 | 17:43 |
| divVerent | just swapon -p 1 /dev/elsewhere | 17:43 |
| divVerent | it will take priority over the default swap | 17:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | just that messybox original swapon doesn't take any parameters | 17:44 |
| divVerent | I have the swapon with parameters | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly not prio | 17:44 |
| divVerent | no matter where from | 17:44 |
| divVerent | but the prio is set in /proc/swaps | 17:44 |
| rikanee | divVerent: with bb-power, I edited the init scripts to automatically swap to SD card if a swap partition is detected there | 17:44 |
| divVerent | rikanee: that I didn't dare :) | 17:45 |
| divVerent | the swapon I have here is from busybox, and only supports -a and -p prio options | 17:45 |
| divVerent | but that may be only in bb-power | 17:45 |
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| rikanee | swapon -p is broken on PR1.3 busybox ;) | 17:46 |
| divVerent | broken how? | 17:46 |
| divVerent | debsums: missing file /mnt/opt/maemo/usr/share/doc/an-droid-theme/copyright (from an-droid-theme package) | 17:46 |
| divVerent | do I really like that error? | 17:46 |
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| divVerent | ah, right | 17:46 |
| divVerent | there is this /usr/share/doc deleting hack | 17:46 |
| divVerent | but why is it then in the .deb in the first place? | 17:46 |
| divVerent | why not build the .debs with that stuff removed? | 17:47 |
| rikanee | divVerent: they didn't patch the packager to do so | 17:47 |
| rikanee | instead, it's done by a postinst cleanup script | 17:47 |
| divVerent | ah, and debsums doesn't apply the root to absolute symlinks | 17:48 |
| divVerent | explaining some other missing filles | 17:48 |
| divVerent | that is unfortunate | 17:48 |
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| divVerent | so, restarting with sshfs now using -o transform_symlinks | 17:49 |
| divVerent | rikanee: that sounds stupid | 17:50 |
| divVerent | shouldn't one rather do this on the build server creating the .debs? | 17:50 |
| rikanee | divVerent: just one hack in the pile of hacks that is Maemo | 17:50 |
| divVerent | that part should be fixable on the upload server, though | 17:51 |
| rikanee | ideally, it should be done as a config option in every single package | 17:51 |
| divVerent | in a Debian world, yes, but that is asking too much | 17:51 |
| divVerent | maintainers having to fix every single package to not installing docs, I do understand why that is asking too much | 17:51 |
| divVerent | but it isn't hard to unpack a .deb, remove the doc files AND their references in the file list, then repack it | 17:51 |
| divVerent | in a Debian world, packages with "big" doc already solve this by splitting it up in foo and foo-doc packages | 17:52 |
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| divVerent | do I really WANT to see that debsums report... | 17:57 |
| divVerent | debsums: missing file /mnt/usr/share/man/man1/aseqdump.1.gz (from alsa-utils package) | 17:57 |
| divVerent | so the ALSA MIDI crap is compiled in | 17:57 |
| divVerent | easily wastes 500kb... | 17:57 |
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| eddyb9 | I want to install g++-4.6 and I need libc6-dev and that also needs linux-kernel-headers | 18:01 |
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| eddyb9 | the only way I can find to get these packages is to search for them and uses maemo.org to get a direct link | 18:02 |
| eddyb9 | oooh I see, the pool thing confused me. so I am indeed looking at the freemantle free sdk repo | 18:03 |
| eddyb9 | yay installing with the new repos | 18:11 |
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| eddyb9 | I wanted C++ mostly for installing fish | 18:12 |
| divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: I see the issue with debsums again | 18:12 |
| divVerent | right, it is in Perl - and starts with a screenful of "use" statements | 18:13 |
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| divVerent | no chance to port that to Maemo... even if you do succeed, you need like 10 more packagves | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ugh backlog, tl;dr | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wazzup? | 18:13 |
| divVerent | I have up running debsums over this pipe... does take way too long | 18:14 |
| divVerent | will do it when my real PC is there... which has big enough disk to run a debian chroot :) | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: you're aware that we, when pondering how to add karma from IRC, conisdered to give *negative* karma for more than 3 consecutive posts from same guy without anybody answering? | 18:15 |
| divVerent | no, was not aware... I normally prefer to break lines early | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | users tend to ignore long monologues | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (I know I'm not the one who's always aware of that truth either) | 18:17 |
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| divVerent | anyway, now trying to run debsums on my eeepc... which runs Arch linux though | 18:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 18:18 |
| divVerent | it looks like File::FnMatch isn't even packaged for Arch | 18:19 |
| eddyb9 | apt-get dist-upgrade with that sdk repo wants to remove most of my packages :( | 18:20 |
| divVerent | no, it heavily assumes to be able to call the dpkg binary | 18:21 |
| divVerent | eddyb9: known issue, don't dist-upgrade | 18:21 |
| eddyb9 | dammit | 18:21 |
| divVerent | but normally dist-upgrade just fails resolving conflicts at all :) | 18:21 |
| eddyb9 | I want to switch over to a cssu (maybe thumb) repo | 18:21 |
| divVerent | oh, THAT is not to be done via dist-upgrade anyway | 18:22 |
| divVerent | please undo your previous reposiotry adding | 18:22 |
| eddyb9 | hmm? | 18:22 |
| divVerent | and follow the documentation on cssu/cssu-thumb directly | 18:22 |
| divVerent | it works totally different | 18:22 |
| eddyb9 | what do you mean? | 18:22 |
| divVerent | you are supposed to use some .install file | 18:22 |
| eddyb9 | how different? | 18:22 |
| divVerent | which then will graphically bring your system to CSSU | 18:22 |
| divVerent | via HAM | 18:22 |
| divVerent | if you do it just by apt means, it won't do some reconfiguring required by the upgrade | 18:23 |
| eddyb9 | but that uses apt sources, doesn't it? | 18:23 |
| divVerent | not only that | 18:23 |
| eddyb9 | well, ham wasn't doing anything last time I tried | 18:23 |
| eddyb9 | maybe it was, but this darn debian crap isn't transparent enough | 18:24 |
| eddyb9 | apt-get is so bad compared to zypper, and aptitude doesn't do much better | 18:24 |
| divVerent | you just aren't supposed to add a repository at all for this | 18:25 |
| divVerent | you install a specific file you get on the page explaining CSSU (don't have the link here) | 18:25 |
| divVerent | this will add the repository, and set up some other stuff | 18:25 |
| eddyb9 | yes | 18:25 |
| divVerent | also, there is a so-called CSSU Enabler you will have to run | 18:26 |
| divVerent | see the step by step instructions | 18:26 |
| eddyb9 | but it's not transparent and I can't even see what happened afterwards | 18:26 |
| divVerent | you can read the scripts | 18:26 |
| divVerent | it indeed is not transparent | 18:26 |
| eddyb9 | derp | 18:26 |
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| divVerent | you should just do it like the docs say | 18:26 |
| eddyb9 | sudo zypper se | grep thumb | 18:26 |
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| eddyb9 | that would tell me which packages are thumb | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu | 18:27 |
| infobot | cssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU | 18:27 |
| eddyb9 | or with -s, I can also see which packages have thumb versions that aren't installed | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo doesn't work like any other usual debian distro, when it comes to repostiories and package management | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not like any RPM based distro either | 18:29 |
| eddyb9 | so it's even worse. I like to know what state my packages are in | 18:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | loom into HAM and there on "uninstall" - all packages meant to maybe get uninstalled by user are listed there | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that'S about as much as you can get to know about 2state of packages" | 18:30 |
| eddyb9 | if a package gets a thumb version after I do this, I can't just automatically upgrade to that | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | plus of course there's apt-cache policy | 18:30 |
| eddyb9 | also ham is the slowest thing ever | 18:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, there's some reason for that | 18:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it does stuff apt-get doesn't | 18:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | there's usually nothing wrong in apr-get install | 18:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but you never should touch any of the other apt-get commands | 18:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as a rule of thumb (except apt-get update ;-D ) | 18:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you should also never edit the catalog/repo files directly | 18:33 |
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| eddyb9 | I changed sources.list to add the sdk repos | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BZZZ already a mistake | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | generally | 18:34 |
| rikanee | eddyb9, DANGER! DANGER! | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even two mistakes | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sdk repo isn't meant for target platform | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you might replace maemo5 core stuff by emulations for scratchbox/qemu | 18:35 |
| eddyb9 | :/ | 18:36 |
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| eddyb9 | but I wanted g++ | 18:36 |
| eddyb9 | and you can't install it without sdk | 18:36 |
| rikanee | eddyb9: do it in a chroot | 18:36 |
| eddyb9 | srsly? | 18:37 |
| rikanee | GCC doesn't like being optified | 18:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, then build a proper deb pkg on SDK, with all dependencies, and install it on N900 | 18:37 |
| eddyb9 | gcc works fine, but g++ has a broken secondary dependency | 18:38 |
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| eddyb9 | which is like bad package maintenance | 18:38 |
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| eddyb9 | why does everyone screw up linux on mobile? | 18:40 |
| ShadowJK | The sdk repo is not compatible with device repos | 18:56 |
| divVerent | eddyb9: because they can | 18:57 |
| ShadowJK | I wish someone would package gcc though, compile it with --prefix=/opt/gcc/ or something :) | 18:57 |
| divVerent | why doesn't any real linux distro make a mobile OS? | 18:57 |
| divVerent | (no, Ubuntu Phone does not count, that is still Android) | 18:57 |
| eddyb9 | ubuntu are doing the craziest shit | 19:05 |
| Sc0rpius | why an Ubuntu Phone is still Android????? | 19:05 |
| eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: because they cheated | 19:06 |
| eddyb9 | and maybe lied | 19:06 |
| eddyb9 | openSUSE has releases for ARM boards, and I wouldn't be surprised if I could get it working on N900, but the nokia closed source stuff would be a PITA | 19:07 |
| Sc0rpius | I still don't get why people say Ubuntu Phones are Androids when they are clearly not | 19:08 |
| eddyb9 | you clearly not know the crap canonical is doing | 19:10 |
| Sc0rpius | NOBODY knows | 19:10 |
| Sc0rpius | there are just rumors | 19:10 |
| eddyb9 | what? | 19:10 |
| Sc0rpius | nobody has seen an Ubuntu phone so nobody knows how they really are | 19:12 |
| Sc0rpius | and people is way misinformed | 19:12 |
| Sc0rpius | people say "Ubuntu phones can't make calls right now" | 19:12 |
| Sc0rpius | WHICH Ubuntu phone if there is NONE available | 19:12 |
| Sc0rpius | Canonical already said by the end of March they are going to show a fully-functional phone | 19:13 |
| eddyb9 | http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ubuntu-for-android | 19:13 |
| Sc0rpius | THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!! | 19:13 |
| Sc0rpius | DON'T YOU EVER confuse Ubuntu for Android with Ubuntu Phone!! | 19:13 |
| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu for Android is something you can install in Android phones | 19:13 |
| eddyb9 | oh my, aren't you mad | 19:13 |
| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu Phone is a whole new device with NATIVE Linux running on it and NO JAVA | 19:13 |
| Sc0rpius | see? | 19:14 |
| Sc0rpius | I knew you were misinformed. | 19:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Except there's no Ubuntu Phone yet | 19:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | So how can you know? | 19:14 |
| Sc0rpius | those are my lines!! | 19:14 |
| Sc0rpius | http://www.zdnet.com/canonical-to-dogfood-ubuntu-smartphones-before-end-of-may-7000015204/ | 19:14 |
| Sc0rpius | and that's not a Samsung running Ubuntu for Android (a total different SOFTWARE product) | 19:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, I'll believe it all when I see it. | 19:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Canonical being Canonical | 19:15 |
| Sc0rpius | yeah well everybody said the same about Jolla and Jolla showed their phone | 19:15 |
| Sc0rpius | now it's Canonical's turn | 19:15 |
| Sc0rpius | they will show the phone | 19:15 |
| eddyb9 | http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ | 19:15 |
| Sc0rpius | have you see polls? worldwide people is more likely to support an Ubuntu phone (known brand, etc) than a Jolla phone | 19:15 |
| eddyb9 | between the weasel words it says android | 19:15 |
| Sc0rpius | eddyb9, now that's the link you should be reading :) | 19:16 |
| eddyb9 | it's obvious what they're doing | 19:16 |
| Sc0rpius | it is NOT Android. | 19:16 |
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| eddyb9 | ubuntu for android is a subpage of that | 19:16 |
| Sc0rpius | it's a different product | 19:16 |
| eddyb9 | they're running a mutated linux on top of android | 19:16 |
| Sc0rpius | that's the Ubuntu for Android which you can install since ages in your Android phone | 19:17 |
| eddyb9 | you'll see | 19:17 |
| Sc0rpius | that exists since AGES | 19:17 |
| Sc0rpius | it's not the same thing | 19:17 |
| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu Phone uses a whole different OS called Ubuntu Touch | 19:17 |
| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu for Android runs on a phone running Android. It's an APP, it's not a whole OS. It's just an app | 19:17 |
| eddyb9 | loool wtf? | 19:18 |
| Sc0rpius | before June 1st Canonical will show the phone | 19:18 |
| eddyb9 | QML? | 19:18 |
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| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu for Android is like that EasyDebian in the N900 | 19:19 |
| Sc0rpius | exactly the same | 19:19 |
| Sc0rpius | but for Android phones of course | 19:19 |
| eddyb9 | ubuntu, using Qt? | 19:19 |
| * eddyb9 popcorn | 19:19 | |
| Sc0rpius | yes. The Ubuntu Phone using Ubuntu Touch OS uses Qt. | 19:19 |
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| eddyb9 | but won't they get all the hate in the world as they are the largest gnome userbase? | 19:20 |
| Sc0rpius | having the "ubuntu" name on it, it's pretty unlikely it'll get hate | 19:21 |
| Sc0rpius | except for purist geeks | 19:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't think Canonical actually has a device | 19:21 |
| Sc0rpius | and let's be hones purist geeks is like 0.056% of the potential buyers. | 19:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | They're chasing OEMs | 19:21 |
| eddyb9 | lol, purist geeks | 19:22 |
| eddyb9 | and ubuntu in the name | 19:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | And their hardware support has some relation to linhybris. | 19:22 |
| eddyb9 | they want to abuse android drivers | 19:22 |
| Sc0rpius | maybe they'll show the OS in an existing device | 19:22 |
| eddyb9 | of course they will | 19:22 |
| Sc0rpius | but not OVER Android | 19:23 |
| Sc0rpius | totally replacing it instead. | 19:23 |
| eddyb9 | that's what it says on the front page, between the weasel words | 19:23 |
| eddyb9 | not totally | 19:23 |
| Sc0rpius | Android hardware without dalvik VM = WIN | 19:23 |
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| eddyb9 | good luck getting QML JITed | 19:25 |
| Sc0rpius | it is not running Java... | 19:25 |
| eddyb9 | not sure what QtScript is using right now behind the scenes | 19:25 |
| Sc0rpius | you're just being stubborn and hateful against something you have yet to see | 19:25 |
| eddyb9 | dude | 19:25 |
| Sc0rpius | we need to be open | 19:25 |
| eddyb9 | QML is JavaScript | 19:26 |
| Sc0rpius | open to Jolla, open to Ubuntu Phone | 19:26 |
| eddyb9 | with some syntax changes | 19:26 |
| Sc0rpius | it is JavaScript based but it is not JavaScript. | 19:26 |
| eddyb9 | I know because I use kde4. I like Qt, and if anything good comes out of this ubuntu fuckup is a win for Qt | 19:26 |
| Sc0rpius | the thing is, like I said in the forums | 19:27 |
| Sc0rpius | Jolla is destined to die if the software companies don't support it | 19:27 |
| eddyb9 | yes and they use a JS engine | 19:27 |
| Sc0rpius | but they will blindly support something that has "ubuntu" on it | 19:27 |
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| eddyb9 | let me check exactly which one | 19:27 |
| Sc0rpius | 19:27 | |
| eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: that's almost as bad as windows mobile | 19:27 |
| eddyb9 | I don't want support for a shitty linux distro, I want generic support | 19:28 |
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| Sc0rpius | I know you want a Linux distro but | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: are you available for a short test? | 19:28 |
| Sc0rpius | if you're objective a Windows Phone is great for the general phone user | 19:28 |
| Sc0rpius | (not for the geek) | 19:28 |
| Sc0rpius | and Windows Phone have support, every app exists for Windows Phone | 19:28 |
| Sc0rpius | will every app exist for Jolla? I doubt it will get a WhatsApp. | 19:29 |
| eddyb9 | we can't have progress without hackers | 19:29 |
| Sc0rpius | I doubt it will get an Instagram | 19:29 |
| ShadowJK | instagram doesn't exist on windows phone ;-) | 19:29 |
| Sc0rpius | and those kind of apps are the apps that make the phone sell | 19:29 |
| Sc0rpius | and if the phone don't sell, the phone dies,. | 19:29 |
| eddyb9 | pfft | 19:29 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; well, at bbq party with refreshments | 19:29 |
| eddyb9 | fuck consumerism | 19:29 |
| Sc0rpius | there's something called Itsdagram for Windows Phone hehehe | 19:30 |
| Sc0rpius | which is a fully functional Instagram client | 19:30 |
| Sc0rpius | eddyb9, we're talking about a business | 19:30 |
| Sc0rpius | and Jolla wants to make a business out of it | 19:30 |
| Sc0rpius | not just make happy 50.000 geeks around the world | 19:30 |
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| Sc0rpius | when there are 500 million iOS devices around the world <--- that's the number they want | 19:31 |
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| Sc0rpius | that's the number everybody wants (even Ubuntu Phones) | 19:31 |
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| eddyb9 | you don't start a revolution like that | 19:32 |
| eddyb9 | silly silly half-assed penguins | 19:32 |
| Sc0rpius | if Jolla knows something about this is that if they make a phone 100% targetted to geeks they will be out of business in less than a year | 19:33 |
| Sc0rpius | like the N900/N9 | 19:33 |
| Sc0rpius | they have to make something good for both worlds: the geeks and the average phone user | 19:33 |
| Sc0rpius | that's why by the way they have to ditch hardware keyboard. | 19:33 |
| ruskie | they are somewhat dodgy when talking about a keyboarded jolla device | 19:33 |
| Sc0rpius | even if we would love a hardware keyboard, that would cut the sells in 75% | 19:33 |
| Sc0rpius | they know they have to ditch the keyboard. | 19:34 |
| eddyb9 | o_O QML switched to v8 | 19:34 |
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| ruskie | there apparently is some work being done on "other half" for a keyboard option | 19:34 |
| eddyb9 | which means crazy fast even on ARM | 19:34 |
| Sc0rpius | the device won't be appealing with a hardware keyboard. | 19:34 |
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| Sc0rpius | I want the hardware keyboard | 19:34 |
| Sc0rpius | but I know it's very unlikely. | 19:34 |
| ruskie | I don't really see why it wouldn't be appealing with a HW kb | 19:35 |
| ruskie | if done correctly it could be good | 19:35 |
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| Sc0rpius | ask your 15 years old daughter if she would want one with a hw keyboard | 19:35 |
| eddyb9 | wait, what, they're replacing v8? | 19:35 |
| Sc0rpius | and the way she thinks, it's the way 500 millions iOS users think, and you want to sell your phone to 500 million users. | 19:35 |
| ruskie | Sc0rpius, if I had one the most shou would have would be a nokia s40 device | 19:36 |
| Sc0rpius | she would say "I want an iPhone 5" :/ like all teenagers say. | 19:36 |
| ruskie | unless she bought it with her own money | 19:36 |
| Sc0rpius | hahaha | 19:36 |
| ruskie | Sc0rpius, not really | 19:36 |
| ruskie | Sc0rpius, someone's kid in this building bought a lumia | 19:36 |
| ruskie | ~15 or so years old | 19:36 |
| Sc0rpius | Lumia's are GREAT | 19:36 |
| Sc0rpius | (for kids) | 19:36 |
| Sc0rpius | dude I saw a Nokia Lumia 920 in action | 19:36 |
| Sc0rpius | and it's great for those kids | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | but then you install SSH client | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | you connect | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | you switch application let's say somebody messaged you | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | ---- connection dropped | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | and that sucks. | 19:37 |
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| ruskie | well atleast with android that has a chance of surviving | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | since there's no real multitasking and not even event handlers for sockets they can't stay connected | 19:37 |
| eddyb9 | seriously | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | everything has to be coded "push oriented" | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | they save hours of battery like that | 19:37 |
| Sc0rpius | but that frustrates me | 19:37 |
| eddyb9 | what's wrong with a device where you can use the hw keyboard, but it's optional? | 19:38 |
| ruskie | absolutely nothing | 19:38 |
| Sc0rpius | you'll have to carry the keyboard around = annoying | 19:38 |
| ruskie | if they can make the "other half" a sliding keyboard option it would be fantastinc I'd say | 19:38 |
| eddyb9 | wat | 19:38 |
| Sc0rpius | unless it's something you can dock in the device | 19:38 |
| eddyb9 | carry around the keyboard? | 19:39 |
| ruskie | Sc0rpius, you are aware they have this "other half" thingy with jolla | 19:39 |
| ruskie | basically a custom back cover | 19:39 |
| Sc0rpius | yeah they invade twitter with "other half" ads | 19:39 |
| ruskie | I'd say a keyboard for that isn't out of the question | 19:39 |
| eddyb9 | N900 only needs to be slimmer | 19:39 |
| Sc0rpius | if they find an appealing way to do it, I hope they will. | 19:39 |
| eddyb9 | and it's already touch or hw kb | 19:39 |
| ruskie | http://jollatides.com/2013/05/23/share-your-ideas-your-dream-other-half/ | 19:39 |
| eddyb9 | what would be wrong with a slimmer N900? | 19:40 |
| eddyb9 | there's this "leaked" design for the succesor of N9, best phone I've ever seen | 19:40 |
| eddyb9 | http://mynokiablog.com/2012/09/04/leaked-prototype-nokia-lauta-rm-742-cancelled-immediate-n9-successor/ | 19:41 |
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| eddyb9 | the keyboard is non-intrusive | 19:42 |
| eddyb9 | what would be wrong with that? | 19:42 |
| ruskie | that looks nice | 19:42 |
| ruskie | I'd grab one of those | 19:42 |
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| eddyb9 | seriously, more design, less corporate crap (like closed source), less forced user pleasing | 19:42 |
| eddyb9 | the things geeks would like also affect a large share of the market, but less visibly | 19:43 |
| eddyb9 | android is kinda good because it gives you more freedom (if rooted) and even if I despise Java, the dalvik thing is working good for them | 19:44 |
| eddyb9 | if I could do everything I've ever wanted (or at least the simple things), the world would be a better place :-< | 19:45 |
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| eddyb9 | I know how to run windows phone apps alongside android and native PC linux apps | 19:46 |
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| Sc0rpius | that Lauta is nice | 19:47 |
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| Apic | eddyb9: The World _is_ a good Place, just the _People_ suck. | 19:47 |
| eddyb9 | it needs some work, but less work than each of those platforms needs | 19:47 |
| eddyb9 | I've been knowing some magic for a while now, and I've been trying to do some things, like break crypto (that failed and is postponed until NP=P), write an web IDE or a decompiler | 19:49 |
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| eddyb9 | the last one is the current one, but I have a track record of not finishing things and also being crappy at doing more than a week of work in the time of a few months | 19:50 |
| Sc0rpius | decompiler for what? | 19:50 |
| eddyb9 | everything executable | 19:50 |
| Sc0rpius | good luck with that | 19:50 |
| eddyb9 | best choice right now is to spend $4k for IDA Pro and HexRays, which are useless most of the time | 19:51 |
| Sc0rpius | IDA pro is great | 19:51 |
| eddyb9 | hahaha | 19:51 |
| eddyb9 | noob | 19:51 |
| divVerent | eddyb9: you do know that you can solve any NP problem in polynomial time by making use of Moore's Law? | 19:51 |
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| Sc0rpius | I've been using it for ages, specially for ARM | 19:51 |
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| Sc0rpius | IDA is not a decompiler, but a disassembler/debugger, not the same thing | 19:51 |
| eddyb9 | hexrays claims to be | 19:52 |
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| eddyb9 | but they're both crap | 19:52 |
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| Sc0rpius | all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++ | 19:52 |
| Sc0rpius | since it really depends on the compiler how you can decompile things | 19:53 |
| eddyb9 | I had a x86 backend in a couple of days, and in another few days I had working stack analysis | 19:53 |
| eddyb9 | which IDA doesn't have | 19:53 |
| eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: common misconception | 19:53 |
| Sc0rpius | now a decompiler for Android or .NET (like Windows Phone apps) will show perfect codes but there are already way too many decompilers for that | 19:53 |
| Sc0rpius | well I'm not sure if you know how compilers work | 19:54 |
| eddyb9 | that's because those have bytecode formats that require type information | 19:54 |
| Sc0rpius | but at least you should agree that a single C line of code will be assembled different in gcc compared to other compiler | 19:54 |
| eddyb9 | it will be assembled differently in different versions of gcc | 19:55 |
| Sc0rpius | a decompiler would have to guess which compiler was used and guess what was the original C line | 19:55 |
| Sc0rpius | exactly | 19:55 |
| Sc0rpius | and if you use -O options in gcc | 19:55 |
| eddyb9 | and in the same version with different optimization levels | 19:55 |
| eddyb9 | ok, you're not dumb, but I'm slow because xchat on N900 | 19:55 |
| eddyb9 | but the thing is... | 19:56 |
| eddyb9 | the processor will do similar operations no matter the compiler | 19:56 |
| eddyb9 | or the platform | 19:56 |
| eddyb9 | you only have a problem if you have legacy disasm, which is what IDA gives you for two thousand dollars | 19:57 |
| Sc0rpius | well since most people that use IDA don't use it for legal reasons most people don't get IDA in legal ways ;) | 19:58 |
| eddyb9 | if I wasn't this fucked up with school & stuff, I would've had a web interface with more of C-like output, already | 19:58 |
| Sc0rpius | like Bill Gates said (or shoud have said9 | 19:59 |
| Sc0rpius | "assembler ought to be enough for everybody" | 19:59 |
| Sc0rpius | :) | 19:59 |
| Sc0rpius | so you don't really need a decompiler | 20:00 |
| eddyb9 | so you're ignorant | 20:00 |
| eddyb9 | wIDE would be finished already, too. awesome code manipulation :-< | 20:01 |
| Sc0rpius | an ignorant because I can read assembler and don't need C code? | 20:01 |
| Sc0rpius | I've been cracking software since I'm 8 years old and I'm almost 40! | 20:01 |
| Sc0rpius | even before x86 processors were out | 20:02 |
| eddyb9 | you're ignorant because you think you can do things in assembly | 20:02 |
| Sc0rpius | disassembling for Z80, MC6502, MC6809E, etc the real processors at the time :) | 20:02 |
| Sc0rpius | I can | 20:02 |
| Sc0rpius | want a demo? | 20:02 |
| eddyb9 | I'll give you a binary | 20:02 |
| Sc0rpius | I can show you an uTorrent with several new options everything done in assembler. | 20:02 |
| Sc0rpius | and actually the original uTorrent executable was encrypted. | 20:03 |
| eddyb9 | find me where it reads a .lyc file and tell me what it does with it | 20:03 |
| eddyb9 | hah, encrypted | 20:03 |
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| Sc0rpius | you NEVER recompile and executable you want to modify | 20:03 |
| Sc0rpius | NEVER | 20:03 |
| Sc0rpius | you patch it in assembler, always. | 20:03 |
| Sc0rpius | actually introducing the op code in an hex editor, not really "assembling" | 20:04 |
| eddyb9 | patching is easy | 20:04 |
| eddyb9 | figuring out where to patch can be hard | 20:04 |
| Sc0rpius | if you have unobfuscated/unencrypted code: yes | 20:04 |
| eddyb9 | you go through 4 levels of factories and vtables | 20:05 |
| Sc0rpius | the problem comes when the executables are encrypted | 20:05 |
| eddyb9 | without a decompiler to help you | 20:05 |
| eddyb9 | encryption is a minor annoyance | 20:05 |
| eddyb9 | as they always need to be decrypted by something to work | 20:05 |
| eddyb9 | same for unpackers | 20:06 |
| Sc0rpius | but if you need C code | 20:07 |
| Sc0rpius | then there must be something wrong in you | 20:07 |
| Sc0rpius | reading assembler is more than enough if you're a real cracked | 20:07 |
| Sc0rpius | cracker | 20:07 |
| eddyb9 | no it isn't | 20:07 |
| eddyb9 | it's actually trivial to screw with you | 20:08 |
| eddyb9 | a few characters of C code can generate more than a hundred instructions with -O3 | 20:08 |
| Sc0rpius | do you really think the people that are patching games and software for PC everyday are using decompilers? | 20:09 |
| eddyb9 | mix in some real operations in there and you'll need a blackboard | 20:09 |
| Sc0rpius | because they aren't. | 20:09 |
| eddyb9 | they're using shitty stuff like hexrays and they're miserable | 20:09 |
| Sc0rpius | they don't use hexrays. | 20:09 |
| Sc0rpius | they don't even use IDA if it's x86. | 20:09 |
| Sc0rpius | they use something called ollydbg | 20:09 |
| eddyb9 | lol that older PoS | 20:10 |
| Sc0rpius | still unbeatable in Windows :) | 20:10 |
| Sc0rpius | not even by IDA | 20:10 |
| eddyb9 | I reverse engineered the Battle.Net2 protocol in one day with IDA | 20:10 |
| eddyb9 | found out how much it sucks | 20:10 |
| eddyb9 | and I know a community of real reverse engineers, I know for sure there's a need for a real decompiler | 20:11 |
| Sc0rpius | I don't think so. | 20:11 |
| Sc0rpius | unless it's a higher level language like .NET or Java but there are already way too many decompilers for that. | 20:11 |
| eddyb9 | why am I even talking to you... | 20:12 |
| divVerent | ollydbg is a debugger, but not a full flow analyzing disassembler | 20:13 |
| eddyb9 | because of people like you, we don't have tools | 20:13 |
| divVerent | different tools,different purpose | 20:13 |
| Sc0rpius | true | 20:13 |
| Sc0rpius | eddyb9, we don't need them | 20:13 |
| divVerent | used ollydbg a lot even for open source | 20:13 |
| divVerent | because windows' own crash reports suck | 20:14 |
| Sc0rpius | that's why they don't exist | 20:14 |
| eddyb9 | you don't need them | 20:14 |
| divVerent | but telling people to use ollydbg and make screenshot tends to help | 20:14 |
| Sc0rpius | ollydbg is great | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and because of statemements like this, we have no calm and productive mood in IRC channels | 20:14 |
| Sc0rpius | I still use it | 20:14 |
| eddyb9 | you go ahead and find vulns in chromium. in assembly | 20:14 |
| Sc0rpius | why would I? | 20:14 |
| Sc0rpius | they won't pay me a single cent for that | 20:14 |
| eddyb9 | then shut up | 20:15 |
| Sc0rpius | I don't think you understand how the world works | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb9: behave! | 20:15 |
| Sc0rpius | if there's a need -> then became the solution, not backwards | 20:15 |
| divVerent | also, I doubt a good decompiler for modern compiled C will ever exist | 20:15 |
| divVerent | but if anyone wants to try, I won't stop them | 20:15 |
| Sc0rpius | divVerent, it's not possible is the first thing I said | 20:15 |
| divVerent | it may be POSSIBLE | 20:16 |
| divVerent | brute force any possible C files, compile with all possible flags, compare :) | 20:16 |
| eddyb9 | divVerent: I'm not talking "I want source code" decompilation | 20:16 |
| Sc0rpius | <Sc0rpius> all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++ | 20:16 |
| eddyb9 | I'm talking practical decompilation | 20:16 |
| divVerent | but current C/C++ compilers do so crazy optimizations | 20:16 |
| Sc0rpius | you would have like a library of all compilers behaviors somehow coded in your decompiler. | 20:16 |
| divVerent | it's near impossible to get back to even similar source | 20:16 |
| eddyb9 | most of the optimizations are easy to revert | 20:16 |
| divVerent | but if anyone succeeds, it'd be very interesting | 20:16 |
| Sc0rpius | yeah | 20:17 |
| Sc0rpius | and that's why I insist: | 20:17 |
| Sc0rpius | <Sc0rpius> good luck with that | 20:17 |
| Sc0rpius | but now swaying there's a NEED for a C/C++ decompiler... that's wrong. | 20:17 |
| divVerent | actually | 20:17 |
| divVerent | there is more need of a nice annotating disassembler | 20:18 |
| divVerent | that not just does what IDA does | 20:18 |
| Sc0rpius | I agree | 20:18 |
| divVerent | but also shows explanations of obscure instructions | 20:18 |
| divVerent | basically IDA + google | 20:18 |
| Sc0rpius | saying there's a need of a C/C++ decompiler only shows lack of experience in assembly, that's all. | 20:18 |
| eddyb9 | academics and people who do RE for a living agree with me | 20:18 |
| Sc0rpius | get more experience, practice more, read more. Buy books. | 20:18 |
| eddyb9 | divVerent: I already have something much better than that | 20:18 |
| eddyb9 | Sc0rpius: but a human can fail | 20:18 |
| Sc0rpius | the decompiler will fail more :) | 20:19 |
| eddyb9 | ISAs are quite complex, and malware writers abuse this a lot | 20:19 |
| eddyb9 | the decompiler won't fail | 20:20 |
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| Apic | ISA? | 20:20 |
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| eddyb9 | instruction set architecture | 20:20 |
| Apic | ic | 20:20 |
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| eddyb9 | IDA (and disassemblers in general) can't even tell you if a function ever returns | 20:22 |
| eddyb9 | or where it can return | 20:22 |
| Apic | *nod* | 20:22 |
| Apic | So Live-Debugging is to prefer. | 20:23 |
| Apic | But IDA does have a Debugger integrated also since quite some Time. | 20:23 |
| eddyb9 | but you can't debug everything | 20:23 |
| Apic | True. | 20:23 |
| Sc0rpius | well back to Yappari, which by the way was created reversing official WhatsApp clients. | 20:23 |
| Sc0rpius | so bbl | 20:23 |
| eddyb9 | you can do so many things with executable code | 20:23 |
| eddyb9 | it's just silly to throw away the potential | 20:24 |
| eddyb9 | a free, open-source, decompiler | 20:24 |
| eddyb9 | not perfect, but correct | 20:24 |
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| eddyb9 | with a clean, easy to interact with, interface | 20:25 |
| eddyb9 | if only I wasn't this big fuckup that never gets anything done | 20:26 |
| eddyb9 | and I may fail this year of highschool because geography (geopolitic crap, mostly) | 20:26 |
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| divVerent | You know what we need a LOT MORE than a C decompiler? | 20:31 |
| divVerent | a C binary vs source code comparer :) | 20:31 |
| divVerent | to see if gcc screwed up again | 20:31 |
| divVerent | haha, a "not perfect, but correct" decompiler is also known as disassembler... just change every "mov a, b" into "a = b;" | 20:33 |
| Apic | B-) | 20:34 |
| Apic | I love Assembly. | 20:34 |
| divVerent | in fact, for QuakeC I wanted to make such a thing... I already have a binary analyzer that does quite some static analysis, detect unused/uninitialized values, etc. | 20:34 |
| divVerent | and it prints out QCVM assembly... I did want to write a second output that transforms the instruction 1:1 into QC | 20:35 |
| divVerent | so the analyzer is also useful to people who don't want to learn in which argument order STORE_F works :) | 20:35 |
| Sc0rpius | so you want a translator | 20:36 |
| Sc0rpius | and that would be cool if it's multiprocessor | 20:37 |
| Sc0rpius | that is translate assembly code from several processors to a standard "more human readable" code | 20:37 |
| Sc0rpius | not necessary C | 20:37 |
| divVerent | the main issue why people want a decompiler is that Intel assembly got so convoluted | 20:37 |
| Sc0rpius | something more easily to understand | 20:37 |
| divVerent | especially the MMX/SSE instructions can get quite obscure | 20:37 |
| Sc0rpius | that would be nice | 20:37 |
| Sc0rpius | you define a standard "assembly" code human readable with things like "a = b" and stuff | 20:37 |
| Sc0rpius | and then you make translators for x86, ARM, etc to THAT standard human code you just defined | 20:38 |
| Sc0rpius | that's a very good idea | 20:38 |
| divVerent | even better if it has some heuristics to read SSE code, e.g. notices dot products and matrix multiplications | 20:38 |
| Sc0rpius | of course it will not be a 1 instruction = 1 line of code | 20:38 |
| Sc0rpius | but something like 10 MMX instructions = 1 line of simple human readable math code | 20:38 |
| Sc0rpius | that's a very good idea | 20:39 |
| divVerent | even 1:1 would work | 20:39 |
| Sc0rpius | yeah but simple loops would be nice to be read as "fors" and "whiles" and the like | 20:40 |
| Apic | I love QEMU | 20:41 |
| Apic | Emulators in general | 20:41 |
| Apic | DosBox rules too | 20:41 |
| Sc0rpius | these very lines I'm typing are being sent through an X-Chat running on a VMWare VM with Ubuntu 12.04.01 full screen in the second monitor of a Windows 8 host | 20:42 |
| * Sc0rpius runs both worlds at the same time | 20:42 | |
| Apic | I type inside a UserModeLinux-VM | 20:45 |
| divVerent | even 1:1 would work | 20:48 |
| divVerent | sorry | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: ooh! "a = b" is not assembler? | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Well, maybe not ARM assembler | 20:50 |
| kerio | Sc0rpius: neat idea | 20:51 |
| kerio | we could call it C | 20:51 |
| divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: look at id software's quake code | 20:53 |
| divVerent | their compiler was so buggy, theybasiclaly wrote in C-like assembler | 20:53 |
| divVerent | only one operation in each line | 20:53 |
| divVerent | https://github.com/RobSis/quake-portal-gun/blob/master/src/weapons.qc#L420 just look at this function | 20:57 |
| divVerent | and observe two bugs right at the top (the normalize() call is a bug too, as QuakeC has no pass by reference) | 20:57 |
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| divVerent | DocScrutinizer05: probably list of all changed files: http://paste.debian.net/6528/ | 21:17 |
| divVerent | I don't see anything autodisconnect related here yet | 21:18 |
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| divVerent | but some things are weird | 21:18 |
| Sc0rpius | I would really see promoting to extras-testing work :( | 21:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | [techstaff notice] we're cleaning up a huuuuge db table, and that blocks www.m.o and possibly other services too. Sorry for the inconventience | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (if you're interested: purging 25mio records from repligard table, keeping 9mio) | 22:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | [techstaff notice] the sql commands been too mighty, blocking our db for undefined extended periods of time. So we aborted the job and will restart it later when we found a way to "renice" it | 22:37 |
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