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| GeneralAntilles | If in doubt, just get the no-cost option. | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| n900-dk | what dbus signal will make omp start playing last song? | 00:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | n900-dk: destination is mafw, not omp | 00:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | or maybe I'm wrong hee | 00:19 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ask MohammadAG | 00:19 |
| merlin1991 | n900-dk: you can only launch omp with a specific song | 00:20 |
| zammy | I don't get updates on debian on easydeb | 00:20 |
| zammy | XD | 00:20 |
| merlin1991 | to play the last song you have to target mafw | 00:20 |
| n900-dk | merlin1991: how can I launch omp with a specific song? | 00:21 |
| merlin1991 | it has some dbus method, it's the generic maemo dbus method for giving a prgram a file | 00:22 |
| merlin1991 | lemme see if I can find it | 00:22 |
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| merlin1991 | hm where the fuck where the sources? | 00:24 |
| arcean | merlin1991: https://gitorious.org/qt-mediaplayer/mediaplayer | 00:24 |
| merlin1991 | n900-dk: mime_open is the method | 00:26 |
| merlin1991 | n900-dk: see http://wiki.maemo.org/Personal_Menu_tips_and_tricks#Opening_File_in_Media_Player | 00:26 |
| merlin1991 | omp implements the same interface | 00:26 |
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| n900-dk | ok, thanks | 00:29 |
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| merlin1991 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Application_Development/MIME_type_mapping section "Using hildon-mime-open" also adds a bit information | 00:33 |
| n900-dk | well, actually dbus signal works with omp after changing omp to default media player | 00:43 |
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| Sc0rpius | merlin1991, promoting to extras-testing doesn't work since the migration, does it? | 00:51 |
| merlin1991 | along the lines | 00:51 |
| Sc0rpius | :) | 00:51 |
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| Wizzup | well, I finished the ebuild ... now for .deb ;-) | 00:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: might have changed recently, since we were able to restore huge parts of that notorious repligard mysql table | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: there might still some cronjob be missing | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since *somebody* disabled ~97% of cronjobs and now nobody knows which need to get re-enabled or even fixed prior to that | 02:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | [techstaff notice] wiki VM gone south with xen VIF error | 04:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll not reboot it until one of our experts had an eye on it | 04:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so prepare for some 4..8h downtime | 04:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we might even need to reboot blade-b to recover | 04:57 |
| Sc0rpius | we thought you were the expert | 05:00 |
| Sc0rpius | :P | 05:00 |
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| Snafu777 | Well, glad to see the room is hoppin tonight | 06:50 |
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| Raimu | Hey, random n900 camera app question. | 08:32 |
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| Raimu | Is there a way to enable the camera flash and video recording so that the flash provides a small floodlight for the recording? | 08:34 |
| Raimu | I noticed my spouse's Android camera has that feat and thought it was neat. | 08:35 |
| kerio | Raimu: with nicocam, press t | 08:55 |
| kerio | for "torch", i guess | 08:55 |
| Raimu | Hehey, thanks! Somehow I'd totally missed that. | 08:56 |
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| Apic | A wonderful good Morning on this splendid Prickle-Prickle. | 10:58 |
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| teotwaki | anyone remember that article, a few years back, about an IT guy who worked for some mafia? | 12:06 |
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| divVerent | stupid but possibly fun Maemo question... | 12:12 |
| divVerent | is it possible to leave USB mass storage mode without unplugging the USB cable? | 12:12 |
| divVerent | (to go back to charging only) | 12:13 |
| divVerent | and if it is possible (I would guess it is, if necessry, by unloading this USB storage provider module then moutning the filesystems again by this *-mmc-*.sh script) | 12:14 |
| divVerent | why isn't it offered from the status menu2~? | 12:14 |
| sixwheeledbeast | divVerent: can you not just eject (unmount) it on the computer? | 12:16 |
| divVerent | sixwheeledbeast: I did | 12:16 |
| divVerent | but then the N900 stll doesn't mount it | 12:16 |
| divVerent | and it is right there - I might want to mount it again | 12:16 |
| freemangordon_ | divVerent: rmmod g_file_storage | 12:16 |
| divVerent | freemangordon_: that was my idea, but it probably doesn't notify the status applet right | 12:16 |
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| freemangordon | divVerent: it does | 12:17 |
| divVerent | and it then automatically mounts everythign again? | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | no | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | you're asked | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | well, at least you should be asked | 12:17 |
| divVerent | but ok | 12:17 |
| divVerent | so all of this is possible | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | if I read you question right, yes | 12:17 |
| divVerent | why doesn't the status menu offer it? | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | NFC | 12:18 |
| freemangordon | divVerent: write a replacement, we'll include it in CSSU :p | 12:18 |
| divVerent | oh, this part is still closed source | 12:18 |
| divVerent | ok, this rmmod command was not wise to do :) | 12:19 |
| divVerent | it from then on also didn'rt detect plugging in USB any more | 12:19 |
| divVerent | but that was to be expected, that something like this would happen when the system services don't know about it properly | 12:20 |
| divVerent | so possibly a wiser way to do this would be to somehow fake the USB unplug notification (I bet this works by dbus, like everything else on Maemo) | 12:20 |
| freemangordon | divVerent: just do insmod after that | 12:28 |
| freemangordon | divVerent: see the parameters in osso-usb-enable.sh (or whatever was it called) | 12:29 |
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| divVerent | ah, that was the script name | 12:35 |
| divVerent | one of the osso scripts :) | 12:35 |
| freemangordon | divVerent: iirc it is in /usr/sbin | 12:35 |
| sixwheeledbeast | /usr/sbin/osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh | 12:37 |
| divVerent | ah, yes | 12:37 |
| divVerent | it tells the module to remove the USB devices | 12:37 |
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| freemangordon | sixwheeledbeast: thedead1440: both of you are councilors, ain't? | 12:44 |
| thedead1440 | freemangordon: yes i'm for MCC and 6wheeled is for HFC | 12:44 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ^^^ | 12:45 |
| freemangordon | ok. I need some "official" to take it from here http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1345746&postcount=1214 | 12:45 |
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| freemangordon | at least we need that discussed first, beforo contacting Ittiam again | 12:46 |
| freemangordon | If the project "Porting Ittiam HD codecs to N900" kicks, we'll have to have agreement inside the community that we want to do it | 12:47 |
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| freemangordon | and some fundraising should be done | 12:47 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Bring it up in #maemo-meeting, I may not be available again. Due to RL plus internet intermittent issues. Only just catching up on logs of last week. | 12:48 |
| thedead1440 | freemangordon: you have the best technical knowledge of those codecs so i think during today's council meeting you can bring this up for a council response | 12:48 |
| freemangordon | unfortunately I'll be travelling by the time of the meeting | 12:48 |
| freemangordon | that is why I am contacting you now :) | 12:49 |
| thedead1440 | ok i'll bring it up during council meeting then | 12:49 |
| freemangordon | to include that as a topic in today's meeting | 12:49 |
| freemangordon | yep | 12:49 |
| merlin1991 | I might be able to be around | 12:49 |
| freemangordon | i guess we'll need some poll on TMO, as if it turns out only 5 people are interested... ;) | 12:50 |
| thedead1440 | freemangordon: polls don't get that many votes; let council come up with a response and when it comes to dollars and cents interested people will raise their voices via their wallets | 12:50 |
| freemangordon | ok, I am fine either ways | 12:51 |
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| freemangordon | thedead1440: BTW what has happened with Bod elections? | 13:05 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | freemangordon: please register and id with nickserv! | 13:12 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: how to do that? | 13:12 |
| freemangordon | google? | 13:12 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | /msg nickserv help | 13:13 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer51: ok. though I don't have time now | 13:13 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | it's a 60s job | 13:13 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | /msg nickserv help register | 13:14 |
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| ShadowJK | measured by irc users, jolla is now more alive than #maemo ;p | 13:44 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | more people in room != "more active". | 13:56 |
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| ruskie | hehe | 13:59 |
| ruskie | I wonder how soon the jolla devices will be rooted and all that | 13:59 |
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| ShadowJK | I hope it's not needed | 14:25 |
| ShadowJK | by that I mean I hope it's like Maemo: download root | 14:27 |
| ShadowJK | from appstore | 14:27 |
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| divVerent | 13:27:00 ShadowJK | by that I mean I hope it's like Maemo: download root | 14:50 |
| divVerent | 13:27:06 ShadowJK | from appstore | 14:50 |
| divVerent | it will still have aegis, a quite effective sandbox/binary signing system | 14:51 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I'd hope it was better than maemo | 14:51 |
| divVerent | however, the big question is - is root enough for what I would do EVEN with aegis active | 14:51 |
| divVerent | it may be just all I need | 14:51 |
| divVerent | I mean, on Maemo, I wouldn't really need root for what I do | 14:51 |
| divVerent | apart from the command line apt-get interface I don't do much as root | 14:51 |
| divVerent | and the hack to disable IPv6 due to a bug in cutetube to be fixed soon :) | 14:51 |
| Wizzup | for accessing certain /dev/ files etci t is nice | 14:52 |
| divVerent | nice but not necessary for productive use | 14:52 |
| divVerent | to compare, on iOS a jailbreak is necessary for productive use (to be able to share data between apps), too bad it turns off the sandboxing entirely | 14:52 |
| divVerent | on Android, one can live pretty well without rooting it, as one STILL has a command shell, can run one's own code (via third party app installation) | 14:53 |
| divVerent | and apps can share data via e.g. the SD card area | 14:53 |
| divVerent | so whether that Jolla thing will be actually useful without rooting is not known yet :) | 14:54 |
| Wizzup | divVerent: well, for some programs /dev/ access is required... | 14:54 |
| divVerent | what I also need is SOME good file synchronization method over WLAN usable by Linux | 14:54 |
| Wizzup | divVerent: sshfs? | 14:54 |
| divVerent | like, ssh | 14:54 |
| Wizzup | it'll run ssh obviously | 14:54 |
| divVerent | yes, but for that you need a sshd | 14:54 |
| Wizzup | Why would it not? | 14:54 |
| divVerent | and be able to log in as a user | 14:55 |
| divVerent | that's not supported on iPhone | 14:55 |
| Wizzup | iPhone doesn't use Mer... | 14:55 |
| divVerent | sure | 14:55 |
| divVerent | thing is | 14:55 |
| divVerent | how hardened IS that jolla thing | 14:55 |
| divVerent | that is still to be found out, or even, to be decided | 14:55 |
| divVerent | they, as the (now) developer, can choose to include thsi functionality or not | 14:55 |
| divVerent | also, I need rsync too :) | 14:55 |
| divVerent | ideally, that is | 14:56 |
| divVerent | on Maemo it all is available | 14:56 |
| divVerent | if there is no way to make a rsync binary work (on ANdroid there is, if needed, by self built apk) | 14:56 |
| Wizzup | divVerent: I'm not sure what you're rambling on about. I doubt this will be much of a problem. | 14:56 |
| divVerent | one can still use sshfs + a local rsync run | 14:56 |
| divVerent | Wizzup: it just isn't known yet | 14:56 |
| divVerent | Jolla keeps pretty quiet about details | 14:56 |
| Wizzup | They use Mer. | 14:56 |
| divVerent | but they can screw it up any way they want | 14:57 |
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| divVerent | they also use Aegis to lock it down | 14:57 |
| divVerent | so their "lockdown" concept may just not allow SSH | 14:57 |
| Wizzup | yes, and the world may explode any second | 14:57 |
| divVerent | thing is, Apple makes such a locked down device and is successful | 14:57 |
| jaska | the world exploding is preferable to suffering with aegis | 14:57 |
| divVerent | thing is, WOULD I suffer with aegis :) | 14:57 |
| divVerent | it all depends on how well the rest works for my purposes | 14:57 |
| divVerent | if the device is locked down, I can't go beyond what the vendor intended | 14:57 |
| divVerent | unrooted Android is e..g open enough for my purposes | 14:58 |
| Wizzup | I imagine there would certainly be a way around it. And that's all you can wonder. | 14:58 |
| divVerent | I would prefer it without needing a way "around it" | 14:59 |
| divVerent | as these "ways around it" tend to come with disadvantages | 14:59 |
| divVerent | e.g. if you jailbreak iOS, you also lose app sandboxing, which is quite good to have | 14:59 |
| divVerent | I would actually WANT app sandboxing, BUT I'd like to have control over it | 15:00 |
| divVerent | like on Blackberry :) | 15:00 |
| divVerent | Android has a pretty weak sandbox concept (due to which any app can read your photos, like it or not) | 15:00 |
| divVerent | because SD card data is not protected in any way | 15:01 |
| divVerent | (fixable if you have root, obviously) | 15:01 |
| divVerent | actually, MAYBE reformatting the SD card with ext3 and setting proper file system ACLs on the root node would suffice :) | 15:01 |
| divVerent | to implement a rule like "only the creator of a folder can use it unless administrator sets the ACLs otherwise" | 15:02 |
| divVerent | I will soon have an Android device and then try out these things to lock it down a bit further | 15:02 |
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| Wizzup | care to link to this aegis project? | 15:03 |
| Wizzup | google only turns up games. | 15:03 |
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| divVerent | Wizzup: either scroll up here, it gets mentioned often | 15:06 |
| divVerent | or look for aegis on github, there is a derived project there | 15:06 |
| divVerent | basically, it is yet another executable sandbox | 15:06 |
| divVerent | and the claim is that Nokia did it right, as opposed to Apple | 15:06 |
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| divVerent | one thing they do that Apple does not is on-boot integrity checking of startup related files | 15:08 |
| divVerent | so even if you can break it, it'd be quite challenging to make the "jailbreak" permanent | 15:08 |
| rikanee | divVerent: fyi, the entire boot chain on iOS devices is signed | 15:08 |
| divVerent | rikanee: apparently, not completely | 15:09 |
| divVerent | but ok, then Apple tried the same | 15:09 |
| divVerent | apparently, because how else do jailbreaks get stored persistently? :) | 15:09 |
| divVerent | kernel is signed, boot loader is read only | 15:09 |
| divVerent | and kernel does binary verification on all executables | 15:09 |
| rikanee | divVerent: AMFI is patched to ignore those checks either through misplaced binaries, or misplaced executables | 15:10 |
| rikanee | *configuration | 15:10 |
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| Wizzup | I just don't know why you're doubting the people behind Jolla, I mean, sure, I have my doubt about the company as a whole as well. But I don't doubt that they will make an open device. | 15:10 |
| divVerent | Wizzup: there has been some interview with the CEO that basically said that the device will be locked down, BUT Jolla will also release a "developer version" | 15:11 |
| divVerent | and I would expect this developer version to be quite a lot more expensive than the normal one | 15:11 |
| Wizzup | Why do you expect it to be? | 15:12 |
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| rikanee | divVerent: that'd harbor negative attention from Maemo and MeeGo users though. | 15:12 |
| rikanee | divVerent: also, regarding sandboxing, I agree that Android did it right, but it didn't go far enough. | 15:14 |
| rikanee | iOS makes apps write all their data to their own private folder, Android should enforce that too | 15:14 |
| rikanee | data shared with other apps e.g. photos, music, etc. should be exposed via API to standard locations in /sdcard. | 15:15 |
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| divVerent | rikanee: just read about AMFI... | 15:17 |
| divVerent | so the main issue is that launchd.conf is not integrity checked :) | 15:17 |
| divVerent | together with a symlink traversal issue in unpacking backups | 15:17 |
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| divVerent | damn, the symlink issue I almost found before... | 15:18 |
| divVerent | used it to browse the iPhone FS via a FTP server app | 15:18 |
| rikanee | divVerent: technically, only binaries are checked | 15:18 |
| divVerent | by putting a ../../../../../ symlink into an app's Documents folder | 15:18 |
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| divVerent | I should have tried making a zip file that ALSO has a symlinkname/foo file :) | 15:18 |
| divVerent | rikanee: which is the mistake :) | 15:18 |
| divVerent | one thing Aegis does extra is some on-boot verification of most /etc stuff | 15:19 |
| rikanee | divVerent: it'd be too CPU-intensive to sum and sign every single file, so Apple depends on the fact that binaries are normally not touched and touchable by anything | 15:19 |
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| rikanee | given that all text files aren't signed, the hilarious part of the evasi0n jailbreak was that it used a shell script to remount / as rw | 15:20 |
| divVerent | haha, next iOS bug was that signing only signs text... wouldn't have expected Apple to be THAT clueless | 15:20 |
| divVerent | rikanee: I considered that the least interesting part | 15:20 |
| divVerent | :) | 15:20 |
| divVerent | as it shows no OS flaw | 15:21 |
| divVerent | if I had coded binary signing, I probably would have made it verify the executable header AND all sections except for the signature section | 15:21 |
| divVerent | just signing .text... I guess I now know how to crack ads out of iOS apps :) | 15:21 |
| divVerent | (ok, my previous way was to block the ad servers on my DNS) | 15:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Wizzup: | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~aegis | 15:24 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | divVerent: last info is "the recent SDK for sailfish has NO aegis-alike functionality" | 15:25 |
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| divVerent | well, the SDK doesn't necessarily need to have it | 15:25 |
| divVerent | if signing is performed when uploading an app to the "store" | 15:25 |
| divVerent | but, we'll see in the end | 15:25 |
| divVerent | it may even be open enough without any rooting/jailbreaking | 15:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes it does, if you want to write apps that actually work on the final platform | 15:25 |
| divVerent | only if these apps use aegisfs | 15:26 |
| divVerent | i.e. store/use secret data | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 15:26 |
| divVerent | otherwise, they'd be signed when you upload them | 15:26 |
| divVerent | or not? | 15:26 |
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| rikanee | a security platform on the kernel can work with the OS to redirect calls transparently. | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the whole point of this shit that you need permissions/tokens for about everything you do | 15:26 |
| divVerent | right, THAT part can not be tested then | 15:26 |
| divVerent | that is, if you asked for all necessary permissions | 15:26 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: thanks, I'm always interested in the low-level side of sandboxes | 15:27 |
| divVerent | but in the end we'll see | 15:27 |
| divVerent | it MAY even be open enough without even root | 15:27 |
| rikanee | divVerent: actually, another approach would be to discard asking for permissions altogether, and simply disallow certain calls/redirect filesystem access on the fly | 15:27 |
| divVerent | rikanee: which is what iOS does | 15:27 |
| divVerent | that you see apps asking for permission before reading your photos is only a requirement of the store, but not technically enforced | 15:28 |
| divVerent | (enforced by review only, that is) | 15:28 |
| rikanee | divVerent: it'd be like SELinux, if implemented | 15:29 |
| divVerent | they of course use some "red flags" in the review process, i.e. the permission dialog is shown by a known API, and the images can only be accessed via another API | 15:29 |
| divVerent | making it quite straightforward to see if an app needs to be tested for doing this right or not | 15:29 |
| divVerent | if it doesn't use the image retrieval API, nobody will test if a dialog pops up | 15:29 |
| divVerent | rikanee: with the one exception of who's under control :) | 15:30 |
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| Wizzup | I giggled at the [X] I am a spammer | 19:34 |
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| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: okay, made the garage account, have initial tgz and other files made with py2deb, now I'll wait for my account to be allowed to upload to extras-devel :-) | 19:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | ~botsnack | 21:05 |
| infobot | :), DocScrutinizer51 | 21:05 |
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