IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2013-05-17

muelli	hey guys. I have a N900 with a broken USB port, i.e. it doesn't charge. But the port is on the board and my measurements indicate that the pads receive the signals properly... And idea what's going on?	00:01
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orson	how do you know it does not charge? is there led blinking or pulsing?	00:23
orson	what do you measure exactly?	00:23
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muelli	orson: the device doesn't change its appearance, i.e. no indication of charging whatsoever.	00:28
muelli	orson: and I measure from the cable to the five pads on the board.	00:29
muelli	All power goes through.	00:29
merlin1991	~mirror	00:29
infobot	methinks mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	00:29
merlin1991	infobot: not mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	00:30
infobot	okay, merlin1991	00:30
merlin1991	~mirror	00:30
infobot	from memory, mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	00:30
merlin1991	DocScrutinizer51: ping I fail to edit a factoid :/	00:31
DocScrutinizer05	sigh	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	~factinfo not mirror	00:34
infobot	not mirror -- created by merlin1991 <~merlin@Maemo/community/cssu/merlin1991> 4m 22s ago.	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	~forget not mirror	00:34
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: i forgot not mirror	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	~literal mirror	00:35
infobot	"#maemo mirror" is "http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new"	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	infobot: no, #maemo mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	00:35
infobot	okay, DocScrutinizer05	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	~mirror	00:35
infobot	hmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	00:35
merlin1991	thanks	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	~literal _default mirror	00:36
infobot	"mirror" is "<REPLY> see at http://telia.dl.sourceforge.net/mirrors/familiar or at ftp://ftp.easynet.be/familiar/releases/"	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	please check carefully before you redefine factoids!	00:36
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DocScrutinizer05	~_default mirror	00:37
DocScrutinizer05	infobot: _default mirror	00:38
DocScrutinizer05	thought as much	00:38
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orson	muelli: I did not check schematics now, but did you measure next connections? to and between ICs?	00:38
orson	muelli: but to be sincere, I am not really sure if it is possible at all, because I did not see PCB	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	lol, _default mirror is a dead factoid	00:39
orson	muelli: in many devices there is a resettable fuse in USB power circuit	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	since somebody messed it up	00:40
orson	muelli: but I am afraid that there is none and just one of ICs is broken	00:40
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DocScrutinizer05	meh	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	I'm afraid software is messed up	00:41
orson	muelli: or maybe you make connections during measurements? eg. you press USB connector pins to the PCB and then they are connected?	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	or USB data lines are broken	00:42
orson	then if USB data lines are broken, you cross them on the phone side and connect +5V via usb - it should trigger quick charge mode	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	first you check from a cut up USB cable to the corresponding testpoints under battery	00:43
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orson	I mean - short them, not cross, sry	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	honestly? short datalines hard, on phone??	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	I probably can think of at least 3 better ideas	00:44
orson	I do not mean soldering - I usually do this kind of things temporarily with a screwdriver	00:44
orson	then go on with ideas, I want to learn sth too :)	00:45
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muelli	hm orson. I think we made sure to measure the USB cable properly. But DocScrutinizer05's hint on measuring behind the battery is interesting.	00:50
muelli	I doubt that it will work though.	00:50
muelli	does anyone have the pinouts handy?	00:52
muelli	should the USB pinout work on a phone w/o battery?	00:53
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muelli	I tried to take voltage between Vpp and GND as per http://www.cpkb.org/images/9/99/Nokia_n900_pinout.jpg but there is nothing	00:58
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DocScrutinizer05	when there was any problem in measuring from USB cable to test points, I wouldn't suggest it	00:59
muelli	DocScrutinizer05: sorry I don't get that.	01:00
DocScrutinizer05	I'm not suggesting actions that I don't know for sure how to do them	01:00
muelli	okay.	01:01
muelli	Any suggestions you have for me to investigate the usb port issue?	01:01
DocScrutinizer05	you can test 4 of the 5 USB pins on testpoints. You can't test ID pin, but that's irrelevant anyway	01:01
DocScrutinizer05	check each of the 4 connections from USB to testpoint, they all 4 shall have <0.1Ohm	01:02
muelli	test point being here: http://www.cpkb.org/images/9/99/Nokia_n900_pinout.jpg ?	01:02
DocScrutinizer05	if Vpp aka Vbus is not connected, then it might indeed be the fuse	01:03
DocScrutinizer05	yes, but Vpp is not Vbus	01:03
muelli	ah! It seems as if Vpp is not going through to the test point. let me double check.	01:03
DocScrutinizer05	Vbus is USB pow. detect iirc	01:04
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DocScrutinizer05	Vpp is system voltage	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	get the schematics!	01:05
DocScrutinizer05	~schematics	01:06
infobot	it has been said that schematics is http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic	01:06
muelli	DocScrutinizer05: hm. So I just measured from USB to test pins. GND goes through as expected. VPP from USB goes to first row, third column of the test pins. The pinout say smth different, no? and I don't get the data lines through it seems.	01:14
DocScrutinizer05	dat alines are on the separate 2 testpoints	01:15
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DocScrutinizer05	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Hacking#Debug_ports	01:17
muelli	ah. okay. I get them, too.	01:17
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muelli	so there is a connection from USB 5V to that test pin. Which is good I think. And GND and data leave the test pins, too. Yet, the device doesn't charge or recognize USB	01:24
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muelli	However, there seems to be no current from 5V on the test pin to GND on either test pin or directly the usb cable's GND.	01:33
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muelli	which is weird because both, 5V and GND seem to be connected properly, i.e. ~10 Ohm from the USB cable to the test pin.	01:35
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muelli	hm. A reference N900 does have 5V from both pins. The broken N900 does not have that. That is weird, no?	01:40
muelli	5V when USB is attached, that is.	01:40
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muelli	hm. For some reason the charger doesn't emit 5V when attached to the broken phone. But the resistance is the same for the working and the broken phone.	02:05
muelli	DocScrutinizer05: any idea? :-\ I'm getting really desperate.	02:06
DocScrutinizer05	when the charger doesn't provide 5V (probed on charger, not somewhere inside phone) then something is odd with the charger, or your Vbus is short to GND	02:07
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muelli	DocScrutinizer05: but the charger works well with other phones, plus with the working N900.	02:08
DocScrutinizer05	well, the possible reasons remain the same	02:09
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muelli	I tried to measure voltage from the USB port's 5V to the shielding of the USB. Beforehand I measured that both, 5V and GND do indeed arrive at the pins after the port.	02:09
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DocScrutinizer05	either something is defect or odd with charger, or the Vbus is shorted to GND. Since a charger has only two wires that go from the charger electronics to phone, this is hte immutable set of possible culprits when on those two wires there's no 5V	02:10
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muelli	Well. There is 5V from the charger when attached to the working N900.	02:11
muelli	And measuring resistance between USB 5V and GND indicates no short circuit, i.e. 50kOhm	02:12
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DocScrutinizer05	are you sure you're probing on charger and not after plug and recepatcle?	02:14
muelli	hm DocScrutinizer05. I don't know what a recepatcle is. But one measurement I did was on the test pins between 5V and GND. And that worked with the working n900 but not with the broken one.	02:16
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DocScrutinizer05	when you're really probing on charger, then most likely explanation is: charger or cable has a break that only delivers 5V as long as no current is drawn	02:16
DocScrutinizer05	a receptacle is the thing you plug a plug in	02:17
xes	or in the charger data+ and data- are not shorted (not original?)	02:18
DocScrutinizer05	and I asked you three or more times if you're really probing on charger so you can tell definitely that charger doesn't deliver 5V on "broken" N900	02:19
DocScrutinizer05	xes: that is absolutely irrelevant for a voltmeter	02:19
DocScrutinizer05	seems muelli has another N900 to compare. So I'd even suspect software	02:20
ecc3g	have multiple chargers too, to compare?	02:20
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DocScrutinizer05	muelli: btw 10Ohm are WAAAY too much. With as little as 0.5A charging current there would be a voltahe drop of 5V already, on 10Ohm	02:27
DocScrutinizer05	resistance between cable and testpoints must be significantly lower than 1Ohm	02:28
DocScrutinizer05	particularly for GND and Vbus-5V	02:29
DocScrutinizer05	I-E. black and red wire in cable	02:29
DocScrutinizer05	10Ohm is exactly what I said before: charger or cable has a break that only delivers 5V as long as no current is drawn	02:30
muelli	DocScrutinizer05: but that's not the case for the working phone either.	02:30
DocScrutinizer05	or plug or receptacle or phone, since you probed those as well	02:30
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ecc3g	<- very annoyed at microusb now after rootcausing the n900 charging problem to a bad microusb plug that seems to have a connection resistance of 3-4 ohms...	02:30
DocScrutinizer05	not unusual	02:31
ecc3g	here's something to try: measure the test points on the board with a 47 ohm resistor across the meter probes.	02:31
ecc3g	see how much it drops...	02:31
DocScrutinizer05	what?	02:31
DocScrutinizer05	what's the use of this?	02:32
ecc3g	estimate resistance of the charging cable, usb plug/recepticle.	02:33
DocScrutinizer05	o.O	02:33
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DocScrutinizer05	that would work if there was any voltage on the test pins	02:34
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DocScrutinizer05	I'm affraid muelli will probe his N900 to death	02:35
DocScrutinizer05	there are really delicate testpoints there	02:36
merlin1991	dumping a 3GB postgres db for an upgrade to 9.1 is fun!	02:36
DocScrutinizer05	and some cheap meters have a probing voltage of >>1V (the considered safe voltage limit for probing on electronics)	02:37
muelli	:-\| I'd gladly follow instructions :-\	02:37
muelli	I can replace the charger but I doubt it will make a difference	02:37
DocScrutinizer05	no, it won't, most likely	02:37
DocScrutinizer05	what charger is that?	02:37
muelli	uhm. Some cheap generic USB charger	02:38
DocScrutinizer05	mhm	02:38
muelli	which works with other phones, and with another N900	02:38
DocScrutinizer05	most probably xes been right	02:38
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DocScrutinizer05	a standard software setup on N900 will not charge on chargers that miss short between D+ and D- data lines	02:39
DocScrutinizer05	another N900 might have a non-standard software that actually charges even with those chargers	02:39
DocScrutinizer05	I.E. bme-replacement	02:40
ecc3g	muelli: do you have a USB charging cable that you can hook up to a computer, and that also doesn't work?	02:40
DocScrutinizer05	much simpler	02:40
muelli	ecc3g: yes	02:40
DocScrutinizer05	insert battery to the suspect N900	02:40
DocScrutinizer05	do NOT power up	02:40
muelli	hm DocScrutinizer05. unlikely that the other phone runs non-vanilla software	02:41
DocScrutinizer05	plug in the powered charger and watch exactly what happens on N900	02:41
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DocScrutinizer05	if you want to do even better: hold "U" key while plugging in charger	02:41
DocScrutinizer05	if the phone boots up and shows any sign of life (NOKIA on screen, LED steady or even flashing amber), then your software is defect, or the charger is missing D+- short	02:43
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DocScrutinizer05	if the phone doesn't show any reaction on plugging in the charger to powered down phone, despite known functional battery inserted, then you have a hw defect	02:45
muelli	DocScrutinizer05: "suspect n900" being the broken one..?	02:45
DocScrutinizer05	yes	02:45
muelli	I'm quite confident that there will be no visible reaction of the phone when plugging in the charger. but I will test in a few minutes	02:46
DocScrutinizer05	a hw defect can be charger, plug, or receptacle, most usually	02:46
DocScrutinizer05	USB receptacle loose is a common failure pattern	02:47
DocScrutinizer05	but also dirt/debris in plug or receptacle is commonly seen	02:47
DocScrutinizer05	so check both the plug at end of cable and the receptacle in N900 with a magnifying glass	02:48
muelli	yeah, but I measured resistance from the cable to test pins.	02:49
muelli	all good.	02:49
DocScrutinizer05	no, 10Ohm is all bad	02:49
muelli	well. 10 Ohm from cable GND to test pin GND. And from cable 5V to test pin 5V. And the data lines. That is bad? That means that there is a straight connection, right?	02:50
DocScrutinizer05	and when you measured 10Ohm on the working/charging phone as well, then you either have a defect meter or you're probing the wrong thing	02:50
DocScrutinizer05	no, 10 Ohm is already what you can probe between GND and any other arbitary pin on a N900	02:51
muelli	hm.	02:51
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muelli	what shall I get when measuring resistance from cable GND to test pin GND? Or 5V. Or data lines?	02:53
DocScrutinizer05	from cable GND to test pin GND you shall get 0.0Ohm	02:54
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DocScrutinizer05	from USB receptaccle shielding (the metal frame sleeve) to battery contacts minus it shall be ~0.06...0.1Ohm	02:55
DocScrutinizer05	between cable GND (black wire) and USB sleeve aka shielding braid aka plug's metal outside, it shall be 0.0 Ohm when plugged to N900 (might also be 0 Ohm when not plugged to anything, depending on charger and cable)	02:57
DocScrutinizer05	btw how do you probe on charger side? I.E. how do you contact the acble that goes to USB plug GND (or Vbus-5V, or any of the data lines)?	02:59
DocScrutinizer05	s/acb/cab/	03:00
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: btw how do you probe on charger side? I.E. how do you contact the cable that goes to USB plug GND (or Vbus-5V, or any of the data lines)?	03:00
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merlin1991	fsckd desktop session went mad and stopped tkaing keyboard iput	03:01
muelli	okay. it's 0.06 Ohm from GND to GND. And 0.09 from 5V to 5V.	03:01
muelli	Cable 5V to test pin 5V that is.	03:01
DocScrutinizer05	that sounds all fine	03:03
DocScrutinizer05	and still your N900 doesn't power up when plugging it to charger or PC?	03:04
muelli	DocScrutinizer05: yes. nothing. I am used to a small vibratoin and all.	03:05
muelli	but the USB connection seems to be dead.	03:05
DocScrutinizer05	do you have a linux PC?	03:06
muelli	sure	03:06
DocScrutinizer05	type:	03:06
DocScrutinizer05	in root session	03:06
DocScrutinizer05	less +F /var/log/messages	03:07
muelli	FTR: If I put the battery in, it will boot.	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	:-o	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	it shouldn't, usually	03:07
muelli	the phone itself works fine. It's just USB that's broken.	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	less +F /var/log/messages	03:08
muelli	well. it doesn't boot boot. It vibrates, shows the Nokia screen and then turns off after a short while.	03:08
DocScrutinizer05	eeek	03:08
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, have to leave now	03:10
DocScrutinizer05	this is too slow to finish it this evening	03:10
muelli	:-\	03:11
muelli	damn :(	03:12
muelli	thanks for the help anyway.	03:12
muelli	I could call!	03:12
muelli	like phone...	03:12
DocScrutinizer05	if you manage evetually to start less +F /var/log/messages, then plug in powered down N900 with battery inserted and see if that results in any output on PC	03:12
muelli	sure, one sec.	03:13
muelli	hm.. interesting	03:13
muelli	it works.	03:13
muelli	May 17 02:13:10 ideabox kernel: [24165.595797] usbcore: registered new interface driver cdc_phonet	03:13
muelli	etc	03:13
muelli	weird	03:14
DocScrutinizer05	that's not powered down phone	03:14
DocScrutinizer05	it been still powered up	03:15
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muelli	well. only the battery is in. I haven't pushed a button, display all dark	03:15
muelli	and.. it charges now... wtf	03:15
muelli	hm. weird. the charger might be bad... dafuq	03:18
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DocScrutinizer05	99% of noname chargers lack the D+- short	03:19
muelli	hmpf.	03:19
muelli	but the other n900 works with that charger. and it did with my current N900 just until it stopped working with that very charger.	03:20
muelli	and two chargers don't work, PC and one other charger does. mumbling	03:20
DocScrutinizer05	then I suspect a bent contact in your USB plug or receptacle	03:21
DocScrutinizer05	or actually a broken USB receptacle that has intermittent contact on some of the 4 relevant pins	03:21
muelli	hm. and now one chargers that worked a minute ago doesn't anymore, but laptop does... O_o	03:22
muelli	why can the laptop charge the phone and the charger doesn't?	03:24
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stardiviner	How to connect to Maemo SSH server from a linux computer ? (I have started maemo ssh server with $ sudo /etc/init.d/ssh start) [What's the default name@server in Maemo ?]	08:10
* stardiviner ^^^		08:10
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stardiviner	I know how to do that know. Found default info "user@IP" now.	08:26
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Apic	A splendid good Morning to You all.	11:27
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DocScrutinizer05	good morning Apic	11:39
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DocScrutinizer05	I publicly state that Hildon Foundation Council so far failed miserably to even start on BoD election process support. Like discussing and publishing BoD election rules. I pushed several times but with no result or feedback. I officially announce that I can't continue keeping track of all that and I quit my efforts to keep that HiFo stuff on rail and running	11:46
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XATRIX	Guys, there's a 'U-boot with kernel 2.6.28-omap1' update i can see in FAM	11:49
XATRIX	Is it ok to install ?	11:49
DocScrutinizer05	no, I don't think you should use fapman to unstall uBoot	11:50
XATRIX	Hm	11:50
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XATRIX	only through slowpok HAM ?	11:50
DocScrutinizer05	particularly especially uBoot (which is a kernel as well) is not meant to get installed by anything but HAM (or apt-get)	11:51
DocScrutinizer05	actually I couldn't think of any package that's more deprecated to get installed via fapman	11:53
divVerent	where can I find more exact info on what HAM does that apt does not, when installing packages?	12:06
divVerent	as in: which source file?	12:06
divVerent	other than suspending/killing apps in some cases	12:07
divVerent	basically, I want to see which specific logic for mp-*-pr packages exists	12:09
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unclouded_	is there a way to disable the hardware watchdog using i2cset?	12:23
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Chewtoy	Hi. I have a n810 an recently bought a bluetooth headset for it. It can change the volume on the n810, so it can send keypresses to it. However, the headset has some more keys that currently doesn't do anything. I wanted to map them so I installed xev to see what the keycodes were. Nothing shows up, not even the keys that can control the volume. Question: How do I find out what keycodes the headset has?	13:07
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chem\|st	Chewtoy: that might show with bluetooth debugging (I have no clue but I guess it is the BTstack doing the called directly without bothering of keyevents) , not sure you ever get keypresses from a headset	13:27
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MrPingu_TUD	Hi	13:32
MrPingu_TUD	freemangordon: Been using your thumb dosbox build for some time and I have not seen a decrease in performance	13:32
MrPingu_TUD	Too bad dosbox doesn't allow to measure FPS :/	13:33
MrPingu_TUD	For anyone else, my second N900 doesn't recognize uSD because missing magnet but where is the actual sensor for that?	13:35
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MrPingu_TUD	And would dissecting an old headphone deliver me a good magnet for this?	13:48
Chewtoy	chem\|st: I'm not all used to bluetooth (this is my first device connecting with it), how would the debugging be done?	13:54
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DocScrutinizer05	divVerent: there's no specific logic behind mp-*-pr, it's just that this is a metapackage that pulls in ~100% of system incl core apps like camera a.s.o as dependencies. And HAM doesn't show those "system" packages to user, neither for update nor for installing or uninstalling.	14:43
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DocScrutinizer05	unclouded_: probably, but that's tricky	14:44
DocScrutinizer05	Chewtoy: probably not, the magnet is even smaller than those found in headsets, I'd guess. The magnet is the one that holds kickstand into position as well	14:45
DocScrutinizer05	Chewtoy: which also answers your question where sensor is located	14:45
chem\|st	Chewtoy: is uinput loaded? that is what is needed for multimedia keys to be recognized, for debugging: you need the debugging package for it and logging enabled	14:45
chem\|st	(still no idea what is available for n810)	14:46
DocScrutinizer05	ooops,	14:46
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: I was mainly asking for more details why using apt-get for these system updates is not good	14:46
DocScrutinizer05	mrpingu_gone ^^^^	14:46
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: until now, the only reason I know is that apt sometimes handles dependencies wrong (then fails), or does not suspend/kill possibly affected applications	14:46
chem\|st	divVerent: apt pulls in packages not ment for your system setup	14:47
divVerent	both issues I could live with, basically would mean I better should reboot after updating these via apt (if it allowed me to do it at all)	14:47
divVerent	like which?	14:47
divVerent	also, HAM also "just talks to apt-worker"	14:47
divVerent	apt-get upgrade BTW never pulls additional packages	14:47
DocScrutinizer05	you can use apt-get install for those system updates, basically HAM does as well	14:47
divVerent	only dist-upgrade does	14:47
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chem\|st	loading newer packages where someone missed to set proper dependencies	14:47
divVerent	but that means that IF extra packages are needed, apt-get upgrade will fail (or show them as kept back)	14:47
divVerent	chem\|st: and how does HAM handle this same case different?	14:47
DocScrutinizer05	you're not supposed to use apt-get upgrade, since - as mentioned above - the only package that gets upgraded by HAM is mp-*-pr	14:48
chem\|st	ham does install what is in mp	14:48
divVerent	so does apt	14:48
divVerent	Ubuntu uses a metapackage too and it "works" there (namely, ubuntu-desktop)	14:48
divVerent	HAM indeed hides the "other" packages, while apt shows them	14:49
chem\|st	can you just live with "don't"?	14:49
divVerent	I want to know why	14:49
divVerent	and no, I can't	14:49
divVerent	because HAM is so awfully slow	14:49
chem\|st	because you may brake dependencies of things	14:49
divVerent	why? apt doesn't do that on debian	14:49
divVerent	so why does it on maemo	14:49
chem\|st	lol	14:50
divVerent	I basically want a technical answer	14:50
divVerent	basically, I want to know what EXACTLY HAM does better there	14:50
chem\|st	it does on debian as well... have you ever tried sid?	14:50
divVerent	yes	14:50
divVerent	so?	14:50
DocScrutinizer05	divVerent: simply put: HAM won't upgrade packages that are in mp-*-pr, apt-get upgrade will	14:50
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: ah, now I see	14:50
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: but mp-*-pr has fixed version dependencies on these	14:50
chem\|st	no packages NOT in mp	14:50
divVerent	so apt will also not upgrade them (but dist-upgrade then MIGHT do wrong by offering to remove mp-*-pr and then upgrading the packages)	14:50
divVerent	dist-upgrade is right out and I understand that	14:51
DocScrutinizer05	HAM will not upgrade any system packages	14:51
chem\|st	apt updates all packages installed to newest version if there arent dependencies set	14:51
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: ok, but why is it bad to upgrade them?	14:51
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: and how would I upgrade them if I want to?	14:51
divVerent	like, a CSSU upgrade	14:51
chem\|st	because some lazy bitches did not set dependencies right	14:51
DocScrutinizer05	because there may be incompatible new versions	14:51
DocScrutinizer05	or that ^^^	14:52
divVerent	isn't that normally set by package dependencies?	14:52
chem\|st	usually is not maemo!	14:52
divVerent	but ok... then basically, that means I can use apt if I make sure these packages are "held"	14:52
DocScrutinizer05	Nokia decided they don't need comprehensive set of dependencies	14:52
divVerent	but I am on CSSU	14:52
chem\|st	divVerent: yes	14:52
divVerent	so the -pr package is not by Nokia	14:52
DocScrutinizer05	but it's still heritage	14:52
divVerent	and still broken deps there... ok	14:52
chem\|st	not anymore but it is always hell of a thing to update properly	14:53
DocScrutinizer05	though I constantly push to get rid of mp-*-pr completely, in CSSU	14:53
divVerent	ok, thanks, that was a good answer now...	14:53
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divVerent	so basically, when using apt, I should set these packages to "never update automatically"	14:53
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divVerent	and if I want an upgrade to them anyway if available, I can manually check for that	14:53
divVerent	by package name I usually know the impact of the change	14:53
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DocScrutinizer05	yes	14:54
divVerent	I go throught he list manually anyway when using apt	14:54
divVerent	and am very careful when I see anything system relevant	14:54
XATRIX	Cant update U-boot with kernek	14:54
divVerent	the list is short anyway, as I do it whenever I get that notify icon ;)	14:54
chem\|st	divVerent: even not system relevant can break it...	14:54
DocScrutinizer05	you can use apt-get install --force-reinstall 8or whatever) to upgrade particular packages, if you know your stuff	14:54
XATRIX	It tells me !!!U-Boot with kernel ... breaks the 3rd party package policy	14:54
divVerent	chem\|st: how so?	14:54
XATRIX	Any way to update it ?	14:54
divVerent	chem\|st: if it breaks the system, it IS system relevant	14:54
divVerent	I know this also includes e.g. libcurl	14:55
DocScrutinizer05	you however never should use apt-get upgrade	14:55
chem\|st	because the watchdog does think something is wrong...	14:55
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: I still don't get it. With manualy reviewing the list it really should be ok	14:55
divVerent	is the same as running install on them package by package	14:55
DocScrutinizer05	yes	14:55
divVerent	and yes, I do claim I usually see if a package is problematic possibly	14:55
divVerent	e.g. anyting qt related I better make sure have a backup before upgrading, or libc, or other lowlevel libs probably many packages use	14:56
DocScrutinizer05	then you completely understood the implications and are free to act like an educated expert now ;-)	14:56
chem\|st	divVerent: some stuff I know from desktop to be not relevant to boot to X is indeed relevant for maemo like msging interface and stuff	14:56
divVerent	ok	14:56
divVerent	chem\|st: I know	14:56
divVerent	like the browserd stuff is needed for messaging too :P	14:56
chem\|st	if anything is hung at boot time for longer than 5 seconds you get a reboot	14:56
divVerent	sure	14:56
divVerent	that's what the backup and backupmenu are for ;)	14:57
divVerent	only busybox, libc or kernel stuff really can break backupmenu	14:57
divVerent	busybox probably the most dangerous part there ;)	14:57
divVerent	I was quite wary on every busybox-power upgrade, for example	14:57
chem\|st	most dangerous part ever, for some reason	14:57
divVerent	(and then after the upgrade immediately checked if busybox still works)	14:57
DocScrutinizer05	I thought BM keeps its own local messybox copy?	14:57
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: /sbin/preinit though... is a shell script	14:58
divVerent	and run by the busybox shell or even bash	14:58
DocScrutinizer05	yes	14:58
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divVerent	so if THAT breaks, everything is broken	14:58
DocScrutinizer05	yes	14:58
DocScrutinizer05	luckily it seems preinit is bash-proof	14:59
divVerent	what I do on these upgrades is checking if I still can open shells and run busybox stuff after upgrade	14:59
XATRIX	Updated u-boot via Fapman, now it even boots a bit faster	14:59
XATRIX	a few seconds less	14:59
divVerent	if that fails, I still have good chances to get the old binary back BEFORE rebooting ;)	14:59
DocScrutinizer05	XATRIX: I told you not to use fucking fapman for uBoot. Please stop cheering/bitching on it now here	15:00
divVerent	what is fapman anyway ;)	15:00
divVerent	another GUI for apt?	15:00
XATRIX	DocScrutinizer05: HAM was unable to update...	15:00
DocScrutinizer05	a poor feature-neutered HAM replacement	15:00
divVerent	then I won#t touch it	15:01
divVerent	HAM is for "I want to use apt, but have someone to point fingers at when it breaks"... and apt is "lowlevel I want something FAST"	15:01
DocScrutinizer05	or rather, a glorified GUI frontend to plain apt-get	15:01
divVerent	(and also "my fault if it breaks")	15:01
divVerent	now fapman is... probably neither of that	15:01
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divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: then how can it be worse than apt itself in handling upgrades?	15:02
divVerent	of course, exchanging kernels is... possibly deadly	15:02
divVerent	when I do kernel-power upgrades via apt, I make SURE I read the log ;)	15:02
DocScrutinizer05	divVerent: it does stuff like apt-get autoremove	15:02
divVerent	now that's wtf	15:02
divVerent	I mean, I "do" that too, but using deborphan	15:02
divVerent	but really only manually removing	15:02
DocScrutinizer05	fails on running postinst scripts correctly, etc	15:02
MrPingu_TUD	DocScrutinizer05, yeah had to go	15:02
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: how can it fail at THAT?	15:03
divVerent	dpkg does that part right	15:03
MrPingu_TUD	back partially ;)	15:03
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: and yes, postinst script execution order is something I am very wary at	15:03
divVerent	e.g. if kernel-flasher's script ran before kernel-power's, I may be quite sure that something went wrong ;)	15:03
divVerent	on Arch Linux such things happened a lot to me	15:03
divVerent	mkinitcpio running before kernel upgrade -> modules and kernel don't match -> HAVE FUN	15:03
MrPingu_TUD	Anyway, I always read the log ;)	15:04
DocScrutinizer05	in ham you can use some commands for pre/postinst that fail on shell and also in fapman	15:04
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: ah, THAT is nice info too	15:04
divVerent	e.g. because scripts require running with certain env vars the xterm does not provide	15:04
divVerent	but luckily these things normally appear in apt's output ;)	15:04
divVerent	so if that happens, retrying with HAM would be a good idea	15:04
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, or rely on X being available etc	15:04
divVerent	that works after sudo gainroot	15:05
divVerent	and I had actually seen use of that before	15:05
divVerent	like, suddenly modal dialogs appearing during an apt-get run	15:05
divVerent	but it would fail when using ssh ;)	15:05
divVerent	(and apt from there)	15:05
DocScrutinizer05	yes	15:05
DocScrutinizer05	exactly	15:05
divVerent	when I say I run apt, I always do so from the local xterm	15:06
divVerent	I mean, that's what the N900 is for... having a PROPER KEYBOARD ;)	15:06
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DocScrutinizer05	afk o/	15:06
divVerent	cu	15:06
divVerent	need a N900 cloud app service haha	15:07
divVerent	stuff runnable via X forwarding :P	15:07
divVerent	I once tried LibreOffice forwarded via X11/SSH running on a server about 5ms away	15:07
divVerent	worked pretty well	15:07
divVerent	only menubar is tiny ;)	15:07
DocScrutinizer05	also see last 200 lines XATRIX posts, you see HAM refused to install, since it detected problems. XATRIX decided to ignore those problems and override via fapman	15:08
divVerent	so it's pen-only basically	15:08
divVerent	does HAM even detect any problems apt would not?	15:08
DocScrutinizer05	what's your guess, will it pan out? ;-P	15:08
divVerent	I know one can override ;)	15:08
divVerent	but THEN one has to be REALLY sure	15:08
divVerent	(in fact, I never override dep problems in apt... if I need a package and deps do not work, I rather extract to a separate dir via dpkg -x)	15:08
divVerent	that's BTW how I currently use deborphan	15:09
XATRIX	But it's working!!!	15:09
XATRIX	I mean, it's ok so far...	15:09
divVerent	let's see if your apt database now has internal problems preventing future upgrades ;)	15:09
divVerent	that's the normal outcome when forcing stuff with apt	15:09
XATRIX	HAM denied me to install u-boot becase it breaks some 3rd party licence shit	15:09
divVerent	force once, and you'll have to focce always in the future	15:10
XATRIX	that i don't actually give a shit to	15:10
divVerent	HAM doesn't deny stuff because of license	15:10
XATRIX	you wanna screenshot ?	15:10
divVerent	sure	15:10
XATRIX	Ok, then, give me a time to roll the system backup	15:11
DocScrutinizer05	probably HAM already detected breakage done by former fapman installs	15:13
DocScrutinizer05	;-P	15:13
divVerent	thing is, forcing deps is REALLY bad, and basically kills apt and dpkg	15:13
divVerent	if you REALLY need to, rather extract the .deb and REMOVE the dep record	15:14
divVerent	then repack it	15:14
divVerent	then the dpkg database at least stays consistent ;)	15:14
divVerent	(and no, I don't see a reason why one would need to do that)	15:14
divVerent	dpkg -x FTW in such cases ;)	15:14
XATRIX	Ok , willl keep it in mind , for future crappy software ;)	15:14
XATRIX	like HAM ^^	15:14
MrPingu_TUD	DocScrutinizer05: Still picking on fapman? :P	15:15
DocScrutinizer05	see above	15:15
DocScrutinizer05	mr XATRIX using fapman. mr XATRIX not being able to install uBoot via HAM, due to a nonsensical error message nobody else ever seen when installing uBoot on a clean system. mr XATRIX blaming HAM and continues using fapman	15:16
* XATRIX has a feeling that DocScrutinizer05 "has a tooth on him"...		15:17
DocScrutinizer05	eventually XATRIX reporting obscure bugs that nobody can reproduce or understand how they got introduced	15:17
MrPingu_TUD	I see, well fapman needs to be handled with care that for sure.	15:18
XATRIX	I'll repropduce this crap, give me a time to	15:18
MrPingu_TUD	Still, if you use fapman turn off the bloody autoremove	15:18
XATRIX	I hope backupmenu will restore everything, including u-boot ^^	15:19
MrPingu_TUD	Backupmenu doesn't restore kernel partition	15:19
XATRIX	:(	15:19
DocScrutinizer05	it will move you right into bootloop	15:19
MrPingu_TUD	u-boot is kernel-partition, so.... no go. ;)	15:20
DocScrutinizer05	since kernel modules restored by BM are not compatible with kernel/uBoot that got NOT resored	15:20
XATRIX	I'm already started restore :( So, i can't cancel it	15:21
XATRIX	It will make my device UNBOOTABLE!	15:21
DocScrutinizer05	so good luck	15:21
MrPingu_TUD	DocScrutinizer05: Can you answer my question above before I had to leave?	15:21
DocScrutinizer05	I answered all your questions, alas I addressed the incorrectly, to err Chewtoy	15:22
MrPingu_TUD	XATRIX, just flash the brick end of mess -> happy system ;) Unless your usb is broken	15:22
XATRIX	MrDoublesite: i have no flashing stuff here... only AC charger :)	15:22
XATRIX	Everything is at home	15:22
MrPingu_TUD	That sucks	15:22
XATRIX	That is :(	15:23
divVerent	XATRIX: have the error message with license?	15:23
divVerent	XATRIX: have the error message with license?	15:23
divVerent	"".	15:23
divVerent	"".	15:23
XATRIX	yes	15:23
divVerent	pic/quote?	15:23
XATRIX	booting	15:23
divVerent	sorry, connection is mobile ;)	15:23
DocScrutinizer05	XATRIX: immediately re-install uBoot after restore finished. Your best bet to avvoid bootloop	15:24
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, you already booting	15:24
XATRIX	Currently i'm booted in :) Evrything is ok so far :)	15:24
DocScrutinizer05	then it's too late	15:24
DocScrutinizer05	good, lucky you	15:24
XATRIX	I'm in a system	15:24
DocScrutinizer05	your uBoot and former kernel modules are compatible then	15:24
DocScrutinizer05	so nothing to worry	15:25
XATRIX	I hope it's a state where i did backup, before i updated u-boot via FAM	15:25
MrPingu_TUD	whoa, you're really lucky ^^	15:25
XATRIX	;)	15:25
XATRIX	I'am	15:25
XATRIX	Now, let's ask HAM to update and give me a crappy message of	15:25
MrPingu_TUD	off-topic; someone handy with SPSS?	15:26
divVerent	XATRIX: good, looking forwrd to screenshot ;)	15:27
MrPingu_TUD	DocScrutinizer05: By chance can you answer my question question before I had to leave, about an hour ago?	15:29
DocScrutinizer05	I answered all your questions, alas I addressed the incorrectly, to err Chewtoy	15:29
DocScrutinizer05	the heck!	15:29
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-05-17 14:21:26] <MrPingu_TUD> DocScrutinizer05: Can you answer my question above before I had to leave?	15:29
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-05-17 14:22:17] <DocScrutinizer05> I answered all your questions, alas I addressed the incorrectly, to err Chewtoy	15:29
MrPingu_TUD	oh , I though that sentence was adressed to XATRIX :P	15:30
MrPingu_TUD	Will read log again	15:30
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-05-17 13:45:23] <DocScrutinizer05> Chewtoy: probably not, the magnet is even smaller than those found in headsets, I'd guess. The magnet is the one that holds kickstand into position as well	15:31
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-05-17 13:45:46] <DocScrutinizer05> Chewtoy: which also answers your question where sensor is located	15:31
MrPingu_TUD	Yeah got that ;)	15:31
MrPingu_TUD	Hmm where to get such small magnet then?	15:31
DocScrutinizer05	I suggest cutting down a fridge magnet	15:31
MrPingu_TUD	Not able to mount SD sucks hard time, dying to try out Arch :P	15:32
MrPingu_TUD	Thanks	15:32
DocScrutinizer05	I also heard HDD have nice strong small magnets	15:33
XATRIX	Give me 5 sec, there're will be a pics	15:33
DocScrutinizer05	you might be able to dremel down those to the size you need	15:33
MrPingu_TUD	Hmm we don't have a 'sticky' fridge so need to get them from someone else ^^	15:33
MrPingu_TUD	HDD, plenty of them here (:	15:34
DocScrutinizer05	http://www.victorystore.com/bumper/magnetic.htm	15:36
MrPingu_TUD	Thanks, enough magnets to find ^^	15:37
DocScrutinizer05	http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new/ehow/images/a04/mv/kq/start-own-magnetic-sticker-business-800x800.jpg	15:37
divVerent	now you can build your own troll car	15:37
divVerent	combine with flashlight for troll time machine	15:38
XATRIX	divVerent: http://imgur.com/a/wOXkP#0	15:39
XATRIX	;)	15:39
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MrPingu_TUD	XATRIX: I don't see anything unusual	15:40
XATRIX	MrPingu_TUD: the last pic shows you that i can't install it	15:41
MrPingu_TUD	Can't you press before installing something like details?	15:42
divVerent	XATRIX: googled it	15:43
divVerent	talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=29752	15:43
divVerent	basically means no license but a stability issue	15:43
DocScrutinizer05	aaah POLICY *not LICENCE	15:44
divVerent	you now had to upgrade cssu packages to a not yet tested version	15:44
divVerent	you are a beta tester now, XATRIX	15:44
MrPingu_TUD	Press that and then go to problems tab - or is that for system upgrades only?	15:44
divVerent	MrPingu_TUD: it explained the problem already	15:45
divVerent	;)	15:45
DocScrutinizer05	this means HAM detected that a system package you tried to install is not from a trusted domain	15:45
divVerent	it is no conflict per se	15:45
MrPingu_TUD	Red pill mode ^^	15:45
DocScrutinizer05	yep	15:45
DocScrutinizer05	or proper setup of your catalogs	15:46
divVerent	docscrutinizer: i thought it means versions	15:46
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divVerent	that "policy" is probably rather the package version listyou told me about before	15:47
divVerent	by which ham refuses to do single package upgrades of system	15:48
DocScrutinizer05	HAM refuses to isntall system packages from untrusted domains (the "500" showing up in apt-cache policy output afaik	15:48
DocScrutinizer05	)	15:48
DocScrutinizer05	this "500" is the trustlevel of the source domain	15:48
DocScrutinizer05	if an installed package has an origin of higher trustlevel than the new version you try to install, HAM will refuse	15:49
DocScrutinizer05	and throw this error message	15:49
DocScrutinizer05	in red pill mode you can instruct HAM to "ignore 3rd party policy" or sth like that	15:50
DocScrutinizer05	recently Nokia repos had they cert expired, which makes the domain not trustworthy anymore, so installing stuff from Nokia repo that already is installed witll not work via HAM	15:51
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DocScrutinizer05	apt doe know shit about trusted domains and trustlevels	15:52
DocScrutinizer05	btw the above is the root rationale why we had to invent CSSU	15:53
DocScrutinizer05	since CSSU isntalls other trusted domains	15:53
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XATRIX	DocScrutinizer05: yes, and HAM reject the install	15:55
DocScrutinizer05	that's the reason why CSSU can install stuff like ke-recv which you couldn't install cleanly via extras repo	15:55
XATRIX	It DOESN'T want to install it	15:55
DocScrutinizer05	XATRIX: hell, then use commandline and apt-get or dpkg to install, instead fapman ;-)	15:56
XATRIX	I thought fapman is a GUI to cli apt-get or dpkg	15:56
DocScrutinizer05	yes, a terrible GUi that does stuff you'd never do on commandline, like apt-get autoremove	15:57
XATRIX	I simply can disable it	15:58
XATRIX	But it's much more faster than crappy HAM	15:58
XATRIX	That even doesn't want to update !! my software :)	15:58
DocScrutinizer05	you simply can disable 3rd party ploicy checks in HAM as well	15:58
XATRIX	O_o	15:58
XATRIX	how	15:58
DocScrutinizer05	~redpill	15:58
infobot	rumour has it, redpill is http://wiki.maemo.org/Red_Pill_mode	15:58
MrPingu_TUD	no, I believe fapman introduces it's own commands. Not just apt-get	15:59
XATRIX	I don't think it's a good idea to enable developers mode :)	15:59
MrPingu_TUD	fapt-get, IIRC	15:59
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XATRIX	fap-getman	15:59
XATRIX	:)	15:59
MrPingu_TUD	not sure	15:59
DocScrutinizer05	I don't think it's a good idea to use fapman	15:59
MrPingu_TUD	If you don't EXACTLY knowing what you are doing, I agree	16:00
XATRIX	Yea, it's better to sit hours over handset, waiting for HAM to be 'released' from hanging	16:00
muellisoft	what's the cell button battery model for the BIOS on the n900? The n900 loses time and date whenever I replace the battery.	16:00
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MrPingu_TUD	XATRIX: Apt-get is faster than HAM ^^	16:00
DocScrutinizer05	~bupbat	16:00
infobot	methinks bupbat is http://www.mouser.com/catalog/632/2009.pdf http://il.farnell.com/taiyo-yuden/pas414hr-va5r/cap-0-06f-3-3v-80ohm-4-8mm-coin/dp/1853000?Ntt=PAS414HR-VA5R, or use the capacitive type, LiIon are breaking during 12 months	16:00
Muelli	cool	16:01
DocScrutinizer05	yw	16:01
MrPingu_TUD	and FAM too	16:01
XATRIX	MrPingu_TUD: sure, but it requires me to use shell, that sometimes is not handy :)	16:01
Muelli	as for the charging weirdness: It only charges reliably on a PC. Not on a regular charger.	16:01
MrPingu_TUD	XATRIX: the N900 has hardware keyboard I see no problems for simple commands like apt-get	16:02
DocScrutinizer05	regular charger missing D+- short, use Nokia charger!	16:02
XATRIX	MrPingu_TUD: keyboard O_O ?	16:02
XATRIX	^^	16:02
MrPingu_TUD	DocScrutinizer05: Can my original N900 kill batteries of other phones? :P	16:03
Muelli	yeah, I don't have one handy. But the other n900 works with all the other chargers that don't work with the broken one.	16:03
MrPingu_TUD	*N900 charger	16:03
DocScrutinizer05	MrPingu_TUD: no	16:03
MrPingu_TUD	Ah coincidence then	16:04
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: so basically, HAM has its own replacement for /etc/apt/preferences	16:04
MrPingu_TUD	but is it only me that thinks 1200mah is pretty high for a charger, all other phones have like 800	16:04
DocScrutinizer05	Muelli: I already explained to you that the D+- short detection is done in software, and that there's alternative software that doesn't need that short to start charging	16:04
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: that is good info ;)	16:04
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: it also gives me a good idea of how to make apt use 100% safe	16:04
divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: simply set the community and nokia repos to a REALLY low pin-priority	16:05
divVerent	(that might have to be undone when actually upgrading via HAM, though)	16:06
divVerent	alternatively, first running apt in download-only mode and watching if the URLs are all from extras ;)	16:06
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DocScrutinizer05	divVerent: the problem is that fools shipped stuff like err libc6 via extras repo, in an incompatible new version	16:07
divVerent	ah, that is interesting	16:08
divVerent	so it'd be better to rather up-pin the currently installed versions ;)	16:08
DocScrutinizer05	we seen similar problems with qt stuff	16:08
divVerent	or maybe create my own metapackage depending on the exact versions in CSSU	16:08
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divVerent	or... actually	16:08
Muelli	FWIW: the mouser.com PDF link in ~bupbat is dead	16:08
divVerent	is this logic even in HAM itself?	16:08
divVerent	in the GUI tool?	16:09
divVerent	or is it rather something oen of those helper programs does?	16:09
divVerent	(which then maybe could be used instead of command-like apt)	16:09
DocScrutinizer05	yes, rolling your own customized mp-commuity-pr is a viable method. Take care to not bump version higher than expected next official upgrade	16:10
DocScrutinizer05	I think it's in GUI	16:11
DocScrutinizer05	but dunno actually	16:11
* DocScrutinizer05 wishes he had time and motivation to tweak friggin mp-community-pr to allow coexistance with procps		16:13
DocScrutinizer05	I didn't update ever since I installed procps, since new mp-community-pr comflict	16:13
DocScrutinizer05	~lart busybox	16:14
* infobot nukes busybox with a single large nuke		16:14
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DocScrutinizer05	oooh, while bashing messybox: just occurs to me that messybox-power most likely will come with additional new conflicts to stuff that sane people already installed on their system from clean core utils. So including messybox-power will break update-ability of CSSU for all those who have stuff like find-utils or swapon or whatever installed in their system	16:18
DocScrutinizer05	so forget about busybox-power ver will replace busybox in CSSU	16:18
DocScrutinizer05	ever even	16:18
MrPingu_TUD	Would love to see a bash only shell on maemo :P	16:20
DocScrutinizer05	right	16:20
DocScrutinizer05	messybox been a terrible choice from very beginning	16:20
DocScrutinizer05	~messybox	16:20
infobot	rumour has it, messybox is In reality, busybox is swiss army knife of embedded linux. Experienced users could achieve everything fat shells provide, without wasting precious (in embedded systems) resources. Lack of education about ash usage leads to ~busybox-hater, though.	16:20
DocScrutinizer05	WTF???	16:21
MrPingu_TUD	~busybox-hater	16:21
infobot	busybox-hater is probably equivalent of those folks, that don't get why you're carrying only swiss army knife and flint. After all, machete, flamethrower and tuned porshe are portable enough to fit in pocket.	16:21
MrPingu_TUD	dafuq?	16:21
DocScrutinizer05	~factinfo messybox	16:21
infobot	messybox -- created by DocScrutinizer51 <~lagrange@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Tue Sep 28 16:37:20 2010 (961 days); last modified at Sat Mar 30 18:43:15 2013 by Estel_!~Estel@Maemo/community/contributor/Estel-; it has been requested 82 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 49s ago.	16:21
DocScrutinizer05	IDIOT!!!!	16:21
MrPingu_TUD	Didn't thought it was him,	16:21
MrPingu_TUD	who would have guessed that?	16:22
MrPingu_TUD	:P	16:22
DocScrutinizer05	~ignore estel_	16:22
infobot	error: chan #maemo is invalid.	16:22
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DocScrutinizer05	i'd like to ban estel from freenode	16:23
DocScrutinizer05	for his constant violation of common rules	16:23
DocScrutinizer05	like not altering factoids you don't own	16:24
DocScrutinizer05	this asshole ruins infobot for everybody	16:24
DocScrutinizer05	indeed the worst troll I ever seen	16:25
DocScrutinizer05	~forget busybox-hater	16:26
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: i forgot busybox-hater	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~forget busybox	16:26
infobot	i forgot busybox, DocScrutinizer05	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~unforget busybox	16:26
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: Successfully recovered 'busybox'. Have fun now.	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~literal messybox	16:26
infobot	"messybox" is "In reality, busybox is swiss army knife of embedded linux. Experienced users could achieve everything fat shells provide, without wasting precious (in embedded systems) resources. Lack of education about ash usage leads to ~busybox-hater, though."	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~forget messybox	16:26
infobot	i forgot messybox, DocScrutinizer05	16:26
DocScrutinizer05	~unforget messybox	16:27
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: Successfully recovered 'messybox'. Have fun now.	16:27
DocScrutinizer05	~literal messybox	16:27
infobot	"messybox" is "In reality, busybox is swiss army knife of embedded linux. Experienced users could achieve everything fat shells provide, without wasting precious (in embedded systems) resources. Lack of education about ash usage leads to ~busybox-hater, though."	16:27
DocScrutinizer05	~forget messybox	16:27
infobot	i forgot messybox, DocScrutinizer05	16:27
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DocScrutinizer05	infobot: messybox is messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	16:30
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	16:30
DocScrutinizer05	~lock messybox	16:30
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: locking factoid messybox	16:30
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DocScrutinizer05	on messybox: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/%23harmattan.2011-07-24.log.html#t2011-07-24T06:03:52	16:48
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Pali	DocScrutinizer05: My last awk in script crashed (and killed shell) in busybox	16:53
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* DocScrutinizer05 is not surprised		16:55
DocScrutinizer05	back when messybox-sed failed on me, I spent a day or more to craft an actually useful function/package for harmattan. alas it tested the script that was doing the relevant stuff only on PC and made sure it didn't have any bashisms, so I hoped it would work on N900 as well, for all users. Turned out messybox got in the way, rendering my work a pile of useless shit	16:58
DocScrutinizer05	actually it was about getting automatic enum and mount on H-E-N kernels	16:59
DocScrutinizer05	iirc	17:00
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DocScrutinizer05	gave me the proper real harmattan feeling, where you run into similar issues of "it doesn't work like this, since this is not debian (or any sane linux), this is HARM) on 80..95% of your projects	17:01
DocScrutinizer05	finding same effect in fremantle, due to messybox, didn't help to make me friend of messybox in any way	17:02
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DocScrutinizer05	o/	17:03
DocScrutinizer05	cya later on meeting, where I officially announce a 3 months offtime, or rather a permanent resignation from that inofficial "the guy who's pushing stuff" role	17:04
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thedead1440	~ping	22:08
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Pali	guys, what are you going to do with google cripled jabber accounts? google is going to cut connection between google's and jabber's worlds	23:08
Pali	so it will be like facebook	23:08
Pali	not possible to chat between @gmail and @jabber accounts	23:10
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Sc0rpius	when that happens, we'll see.	23:16
Sc0rpius	I guess the new GTalk protocol will not be open	23:17
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Pali	Sc0rpius: you will be able to conenct to new GTalk protocol via XMPP	23:20
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Pali	but you will not be able to chat with non gmail contacts	23:20
Sc0rpius	oh really?	23:24
Sc0rpius	then we're fine :) I wonder how many people connect to Gtalk to chat to ther Jabber accounts?	23:24
Sc0rpius	something like 0.056% of Gtalk users.	23:24
Sc0rpius	actually I even didn't know that was possible.	23:25
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Pali	Sc0rpius: you really do not have any non gmail friends in your contact list?	23:30
Sc0rpius	nope	23:33
Sc0rpius	why would I?	23:33
Sc0rpius	and I don't even know anybody that uses Jabber	23:33
Sc0rpius	I only use 3 IMs: Skype, AIM and GTalk. Everybody I know has one of those 3	23:34
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DocScrutinizer05	why would I have any gtalk contacts? why skype? I honestly don't need that stuff, since there's IRC, jabber, SIP VoIP...	23:57
cehteh	i just have skype because its integrated on the n900 .. eventually i'll get rid of it	23:59

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