IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2013-03-14

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*** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to "DNS switch for migra#2 pending - see || Welcome to #maemo | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | | Source: | Chanlog: | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-fu"07:04
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*** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to "DNS switch for migra#2 pending - see || Welcome to #maemo | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | | Source: | Chanlog: | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet"07:06
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* DocScrutinizer05 moos at freemangordon07:11
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freemangordonmorning doc07:12
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DocScrutinizer05~seen pali10:58
infobotpali <~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 14h 54m 53s ago, saying: 'I remember that there was big problems about it...'.10:58
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DocScrutinizer052) Delete the expired Release, Release.gpg, Packages and Packages.gz10:58
DocScrutinizer05from the local replica of the repo10:58
DocScrutinizer053) Use atpftparchive and gzip to create these files anew10:59
DocScrutinizer054) Sign the whole thing using our renewed 4v1 key10:59
DocScrutinizer055) Upload the new signed repo back to SSU into a temp folder.10:59
DocScrutinizer05renewed 4v1 key??? how is this gonna work?10:59
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DocScrutinizer05no cert on any device for such a "renewed 4v1 key"10:59
DocScrutinizer05I told Pali they wouldn't really grok the ramifications of that 4v1 exoired11:01
DocScrutinizer05kerio: freemangordon: ^^^11:01
DocScrutinizer05(from Matti/ext-Nokia)11:01
kerioyeah, they don't understand11:02
keriothere's no mechanism for automatic key renewal in apt11:02
DocScrutinizer05that's the whole point11:02
kerioyou have packages that hold keys that are updated quite some time before the current keys expire11:03
DocScrutinizer05so rolling out what's basically an update, based on a "renewed" 4v1-key, without shipping new cert to install to devices same time, is futile11:03
DocScrutinizer05given the expiration date is in the cert on device, not in the signing key used on server side11:04
DocScrutinizer05unless I'm *completely* mistaken11:05
DocScrutinizer05we need to *somehow* deploy a *new* standard key cert to devices11:07
DocScrutinizer05and/or sign the repo with a key that has a valid cert on all devices still11:08
DocScrutinizer05such key would be that sw-admin key11:08
DocScrutinizer05any such repo"-update" SHOULD deploy a renewed cert for a 4v9 key, which community could inherit11:10
kerioand to deploy the key, the only option at this point is to poison packages in extras11:10
keriobut fuck that11:10
DocScrutinizer05:nod: and that's exactly what we should do11:10
keriono we shouldn't11:10
kerioespecially because we should poison *everything* to be sure11:11
kerioand even that it's not guaranteed to work11:11
DocScrutinizer05though I think we could also provide a new certs-pkg for SSU that includes a cert to a key we created and that gets included to SSU as an update to the existing certs-pkg and then gets signed (like whole repo"-update" by that SW-adm-key so devices would accept it11:12
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: though I think we could also provide a new certs-pkg for SSU that includes a cert to a key we created and that gets included to SSU as an update to the existing certs-pkg and then gets signed (like whole repo"-update") by that SW-adm-key so devices would ...11:12
DocScrutinizer05from that moment on we could sign new SSU updates with that new community-borne secret key11:14
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DocScrutinizer05while the then-current SSU would be signed by SW-adm key and probably would stay like that for quite some time11:14
keriohm, i don't think that there's a way of doing that cleanly11:14
DocScrutinizer05for *next* update however we wouldn't need the SW-adm key anymore11:15
kerioyou'd have to add a key to a domain11:15
kerioand iirc that's dealt with by the ham package11:15
DocScrutinizer05oh c'mon there *is* *some* package in core Nokia repos that ships the certs, no?11:16
DocScrutinizer05yeah, quite likely *ham*.dpk11:17
DocScrutinizer05pali elaborated on all that11:17
DocScrutinizer05however the suggested solution been not clear enough to Nokia it seems, or maybe not even been properly thought11:18
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DocScrutinizer05I asked pali to send a postscriptum mail to matti, explaining clearly what needs to be done. He preferred to wait for Matti's answer first. Now e have that answer. I think it's about time to send that postscriptum mail now, that clearly puts straight what are the steps to get done, to reclaim control over the SSU repo11:20
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gulyi'm off since some months, are still fightin with nokia for SSU repo?11:24
kerioDocScrutinizer05: one part of it is the keys... ah ok, we can just ship the updated key11:24
keriothe thing is, HAM wants a valid key and wants that key to be listed in its weird domain thing11:25
DocScrutinizer05kerio: there *is* *one* valid key: SW-adm-key11:25
keriobut a package to add more keys to the current domains will kinda conflict with the existing one11:26
DocScrutinizer05use this key to deploy a renewed cert for 4v1.1 key11:26
keriothat would work11:26
DocScrutinizer05thought as much ;-D11:27
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kerioit's still kind of ugly to make though11:53
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keriobecause iirc variant-keys.gpg is in the HAM package11:53
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keriooh no, it's a separate package11:54
kerioDocScrutinizer05: so, we need to test what happens if we make hildon-application-manager-settings-standard a user package and update that11:55
keriolike, what happens if a user tries to remove it11:55
DocScrutinizer05why do we need to make it a user package?11:56
keriobecause otherwise HAM won't even prompt for its update11:56
kerioit's either that, or pr1.3.211:56
DocScrutinizer05why not simply edit maemo-MP-PR?11:56
DocScrutinizer05call it PR1.3.2 and good11:56
kerioi'm not entirely sure nokia will like that11:56
kerioalso, if "we" do pr 1.3.2 we should also add the turktrust fix11:57
DocScrutinizer05Nokia doesn't give a shit11:57
DocScrutinizer05that's the idea11:57
kerioyeah but we're asking nokia to do those modifications for us11:57
DocScrutinizer05Matti probably asked because they planned to add turktrust fix11:57
DocScrutinizer05no, Nokia is doing those for them11:58
DocScrutinizer05since they want to fix that11:58
DocScrutinizer05it's not "for us"11:58
DocScrutinizer05it's ext-nokia/matti who's willing to fix fremantle repos11:59
kerioi see11:59
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DocScrutinizer05when he needs to edit mp-pr for that, so what?12:00
DocScrutinizer05when he declares that PR1.3.2, even fine!! "nokia still cares" who's to be blamed for that?12:00
kerioyay nokia :312:01
keriobut i thought that to release a new pr they needed extensive testing12:01
DocScrutinizer05and actually Nokia-the-inc kinda actually still cares, since they pay Matti and colleagues to maintain fremantle12:01
DocScrutinizer05c'mon extensive testing for *one* updated package?12:02
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DocScrutinizer05it would seem like you can scientifically prove what impact it can have, at worst case12:03
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DocScrutinizer05just calling it pr1.3.2 and shipping a new cert-pkg doesn't mean we need to re-test dialer, modest, hildon-desktop, whatnot else12:04
kerioalso, aren't you supposed to fix things such as CA problems really, really quickly? :)12:04
DocScrutinizer05meh, OT12:04
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divVerenthow do I check if a BL-5J is genuine?12:08
DocScrutinizer05ok, so here we go: create a new signature key 4v99. add the cert of that key to the certs.dpk. add that updated certs.dpk to repo, edit mp-pr to depend on that new certs.dpk. Add turktrust fixes to the browser certificates (!!unrelated!!). Sign the whole stuff with SW-adm key, call it "PR1.3.2 Maemo Fremantle security system-update" and deloy via Nokia SSU12:08
divVerenthave a toy (MP3 player) that contains a BL-5J, would know if I can safely use it as 2nd battery for the N90012:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, you can12:10
divVerentthe toy came from the Ukraine, it may be a fake ;)12:10
DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter12:10
divVerentah, it IS a fake, as I see now, it does not have nokia written on it... ok, then it probably is "honest rebuilt" ;)12:11
divVerentlike the ebay stuff12:11
DocScrutinizer05you're 99.999999999% *safe* to try it anyway12:11
divVerentgood :P12:11
DocScrutinizer05worst thing that could happen: it performs poorly or doesn't work at all12:11
divVerentit quite sure will not explode ;)12:12
divVerentit worked in the player after all12:12
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divVerentok, my current state of the disk encryption stuff AND the gconf moving: MOST settings survive, oddly, the screen vibration setting gets reset on reboot12:27
divVerentit seems to be the only one yet12:27
divVerentand for some reason (I DID make homedir and gconf empty for normal bootup) the clock is in 12 hour mode despite the language scheme set to Europe/Berlin12:28
divVerent(ok, just found that setting now)12:28
divVerentalso, WLAN settings seem to get lost at bootup, but THAT probably is fixable by a SIGHUP or SIGTERM to the right process12:30
divVerent(but that's unconfirmed, I just had a bad power down due to removing the battery, fsck then wanted some stuff to be manually fixed, so it MIGHT also have been that)12:31
divVerentI had thought I can safely pull the battery when on USB... I could not12:31
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divVerentyes, I do lose the WLAN settings on every bootup with my current setup... apparently these are started by upstart before the mounts13:03
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DocScrutinizer05divVerent: well, you basically can't pull battery any time unless device powered down. (there are tricks to do so, see my tmo "hotswap battery" thread. that however is not exactly interesting for your usecase I guess)13:17
divVerenthaha, so basically this is yet another thing this evil bme does...13:21
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divVerentBTW, how critical are the operations of bme anyway? Does bme actually control the charging (so a misbehaving bme could actually cause one of those LiIon fires)?13:23
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divVerentOr is it like "usual" and the actual charging circuit is in the battery, and bme only controls how much current it can crain from USB?13:23
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keriodivVerent: the worst you can do is charge the battery too quickly and wear it down13:25
keriobut if the battery is good, that won't be dangerous13:26
keriothere's two chips regulating battery and charge13:26
divVerentah, ok13:26
kerioone of them is supposed to be mounted to the battery, but it's in the n900 instead13:26
keriowhich leads to loss of calibration when you change batteries :(13:26
kerioapart from that, it's Safe™13:27
kerioDocScrutinizer05: correct?13:27
divVerentBTW, is it safe to do the calibration script when just being connected to a notebook?+13:27
divVerentPROBABLY yes, in worst case it'll power off at the end13:27
divVerentis my guess13:27
divVerentbut that's already AFTER the mAh value got updated13:27
kerioi think you can reach VDQ with a usb host charger13:27
keriobut i'm not sure13:27
keriobecause musb_core takes lots of power to keep a usb host connection active13:28
kerioso you have... hm, 420mA for charging?13:28
divVerentah, I see13:28
kerioyeah, that should be enough13:28
divVerentbut basically, the script will tell me if it won't work13:28
keriothe script does nothing you couldn't do with your hands13:28
divVerentas VDQ is that state the battery needs to be in to start learning13:28
divVerentwell, it does ONE thing13:28
divVerentresume charging when done13:28
kerioyou could do that with your hands!13:29
divVerentif I watch it all the time, sure ;)13:29
Veggen /leave #maemo13:29
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keriodon't leave #maemo!13:29
divVerentall the script really seems to do, is: stopping BME, checking VDQ ("full") state first, i2c hacks to turn off any charging despite being connected, stopping BME based charging, and waiting till battery is empty enough to have updated its data13:30
divVerentbut most of the hacks are only needed BECAUSE of being plugged in while doing it13:30
divVerentso I would THINK a recalibration can also be done by first ensuring VDQ, then just unplugging and waiting for it to turn itself off13:31
divVerentunless BME then would power down too early, in which case shutting down BME would also be necessary ;) also, LiIons don't like being empty for a while, which is why the method to instantly turn on charging again when "empty" is better to the battery13:31
divVerentthan e.g. letting it run out over night then sitting in that state for hours13:32
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divVerentI do wonder though why a "recalibration script" even was necessary... I mean, notebooks don't need that13:33
divVerentBTW, does BME really FULLY ignore the calibration data?13:34
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divVerentas in, does a miscalibration on that chip lead to too early power down?13:36
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: yep, correct13:41
DocScrutinizer05calibration will work from USB as well13:42
DocScrutinizer05USB host that is13:42
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divVerentand what is the impact of wrong calibration data, when using BME? none?13:42
DocScrutinizer05it's using normal bme controlled charging, just stops bme to discharge battery til learning cycle completed, then restarts bme13:42
DocScrutinizer05divVerent: none13:43
divVerentjust asking, as I am now calibrating for the other battery13:43
divVerentand when that is done, I probabyl won't recalibrate for the main one again13:43
divVerentas I know its capacity now13:43
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divVerentit's 1158mAh, quite the expected value given initial capacity and age of the battery13:44
DocScrutinizer05calibration will usually not work the manual way you suggested. BME / bat-applet will shutdown before chip completed learning cycle13:44
divVerentso for the "manual way" one would have to stop BME anyway13:44
divVerentand thus risk deep discharge13:44
divVerentwhich probably the security chip on the battery will prevent, but it lowers battery life anyway13:45
divVerentalso, I remmeber Nokias don't like to wake up immediately from a totally discharged battery even when on the charger13:46
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divVerentthe N900 probably has the same issue :P13:46
divVerentand then take up to half an hour to be able to be powered on again13:46
infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover13:46
divVerentyes, same procedure as with other nokias :P13:47
keriodivVerent: the n900 is similar to every other nokia, yes13:47
keriothat's why ACT_DEAD exists, afaik13:47
keriowell, that and alarms13:47
divVerentAH, that's what it does :P13:47
DocScrutinizer05nope, ACT_DEAD is unrelated to flatbatrecover13:47
divVerentso even in this state the linux system is actually booted...13:47
divVerentkinda weird design13:47
divVerentoh, ok then13:47
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kerioflatbatrecover is a NOLO thing13:47
keriocharging while "turned off" still boots the kernel13:48
divVerent12:48:06            kerio | charging while "turned off" still boots the kernel13:48
divVerentwhich explains the stupid annoying "cannot power off when on USB" issue ;)13:48
DocScrutinizer05emergency charging is a mere hw thing, done because CPU can't boot yet13:48
keriothat's the normal charge13:48
divVerentprobably has to be done so that BME can run13:48
kerioDocScrutinizer05: oh, so it's even before ROMBL?13:48
kerioi see13:48
keriowhat checks VBAT before allowing you to power on?13:49
DocScrutinizer05SoC needs a certain minimum voltage of some 3300mV or whatever, to boot into cpu working state13:49
divVerentah... now I see what emergency charging is REALLY for13:49
divVerentthe dead battery state... NOT the case that BME doesn't work :P13:50
kerioemergency charging is to allow you to boot13:50
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keriodivVerent: this design has a critical flaw that leads to a "brick" if you don't have another way to charge the battery:13:50
DocScrutinizer05it's a property of the bq24150 charger chip13:50
divVerenthm... I don't trust the calibration value... 1158mAh sounds good, it has 1320 printed on it... but that's 88% of original13:50
divVerentbut aren't they supposed to lose 20% per yearß⎈13:50
DocScrutinizer05to bootstrap from flat battery13:50
kerioif you bork your rootfs, and lower the battery below the flashing threshold, you're boned13:50
kerioboned-ish, because you can still boot rescueOS and charge from that, aiui13:51
DocScrutinizer05that's another unrelated issue13:51
keriono, wait, can you?13:51
DocScrutinizer05and that's actually a NOLO thing13:51
DocScrutinizer05you can, as long as NOLO allows it ;-)13:52
kerioDocScrutinizer05: will NOLO allow you to load rescueOS with a low battery?13:52
divVerentkerio: but emergency charging still works... or does it not bring the battery up enough?13:52
kerioemergency charging is enough to boot, not enough to flash13:52
DocScrutinizer05I actually dunno if NOLO would allow RAMload rescueos13:52
kerioDocScrutinizer05: NOLO isn't signed, right?13:52
DocScrutinizer05NOLO isn't signed13:52
DocScrutinizer05XLoader is13:52
keriocan't we lower the value it checks for with hex editing?13:53
DocScrutinizer05you 'just' need to disassemble and analyze/RE it13:53
keriojust change every instance of the voltage it wants with a lower voltage13:54
keriowhat can possibly go wrong13:54
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DocScrutinizer05   Custom NOLO Splash, USB and R&D icons13:55
keriolet's get HiFo to pay for a Hex-Rays ARM license for jonwil!13:55
DocScrutinizer05well, you have a few 100k of bytes you can try to change ;-P13:55
kerioi can't believe nobody has put the arm disassembler on bittorrent :s13:56
DocScrutinizer05kerio: now THAT would be a great idea, and actually inline with what HiFo is meant to do13:56
kerioah, here's an explanation: :(13:56
kerioDocScrutinizer05: apparently hex-rays doesn't even want your money unless you're special or have a perfect track record of keeping it for yourself13:58
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Maceranother stranded carnival cruise ship14:06
DocScrutinizer05another cryptic comment that nobody can make sense out of14:11
DocScrutinizer05kerio: when you paid a sufficiently high amount of money for a licence of a program that comes with dongle and watermark, then your motivation to crack and piratebay it are rather limited14:14
kerioDocScrutinizer: the hex-rays arm decompiler has a 105GB bounty on what.cd14:15
DocScrutinizer05particularly when a support account is a huge part of that deal, and you'd risk to see that account go poof and void when you'd dare to mess with proliferating your copy14:15
keriothat's a lot!14:15
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DocScrutinizer05think of it like MSDN, kind of14:17
DocScrutinizer05you're paying to be a member of a very exclusive club, where quite exclusive service is offered to those who are members14:18
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DocScrutinizer05and I guess all members contribute to that service by sharing their own results to others, indirectly via the company14:19
jaskamsdn is far more mundane14:19
thedead1440hmm MSDN isn't that exclusive nowadays isn't it?14:19
jaskahex-rays sits in stratospheric ivory towers14:20
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DocScrutinizer05HEXALLLx86+ARM Decompiler Base License (Linux)  2699 EUR14:24
DocScrutinizer05absolutely reasonable14:24
DocScrutinizer05actually a bargain14:24
DocScrutinizer05compare that e.g. to Lauterbach products14:24
Macerdon't you have to send in dna for a copy?14:24
Maceras well as your first born's soul for collateral?14:25
DocScrutinizer05>>This order form is for IDA Computer Licenses only. IDA Computer licenses can be used on a single computer b yany user, provided than the simultaneous seat count does not exceed the license seats. In order to benefit fro mthe discounted "additional user" prices for IDA, additional seats have to be purchased at the same time as th einitial license they complement.<< So no, I can't see any special conditions14:26
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: is that the disassembler or the decompiler?14:27
DocScrutinizer05HEXARM LARM Decompiler Base License (Linux )1800 EUR14:27
kerioare the licenses transferrable?14:28
keriolike, if HiFo actually decided to buy it14:28
DocScrutinizer05>>This order form is for IDA Computer Licenses only. IDA Computer licenses can be used on a single computer b yany user, provided than the simultaneous seat count does not exceed the license seats. In order to benefit fro mthe discounted "additional user" prices for IDA, additional seats have to be purchased at the same time as th einitial license they complement.<< So no, I can't see any special conditions14:28
deepyit does say single computer any user14:28
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keriowell, we could install it on a private VM on maemo.org14:29
kerioand let just one person at a time access it14:29
DocScrutinizer05we probably are allowed to do so, yes14:29
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kerioi mean, what do we need money for?14:30
DocScrutinizer05given you can't log in with more than one VNC concurrently14:30
kerioi was thinking x forwarding actually14:30
DocScrutinizer05or that14:30
kerioi wonder if we can batch process every ARM binary on dmnc :>14:31
MacerDocScrutinizer05: where is that order form?14:32
Maceroh nm14:33
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DocScrutinizer05you could have known, no?14:33
kerioDocScrutinizer05: hehe, 1800 plus the cost of IDA14:33
keriohex-rays runs on top of ida14:34
DocScrutinizer05you think ALL doesn't mean all?14:34
DocScrutinizer05IDAPROCL IDA Pro Base Computer License (Linux )1299 EUR14:37
DocScrutinizer05k, that's 3k € then, still not too much for the amount of funds HiFo has collected ;-D14:38
DocScrutinizer05UPDHEXARML Support renewal for ARM Decompiler License (Linux )600 EUR   <- 1 year14:42
kerioDocScrutinizer05: we have permission to redistribute (C)Nokia things, right?14:43
keriowho has the right to the decompiled source?14:43
DocScrutinizer05UPDPROCL support renewal for IDA Pro Computer License (Linux) 429 EUR14:43
DocScrutinizer05interesting question14:43
kerionon-free with source is an interesting concept14:44
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divVerentanother thing... often when I power up the N90, it instgantly shuts down after dsme startup14:47
divVerentby setting upstart's bootstate to SHUTDOWN14:47
divVerentany obvious reason for it?14:47
divVerentI see no errors in the backlight-less console14:47
divVerentwhich I see due to added "modprobe fbcon" early14:48
DocScrutinizer05though not entirely unheard, it's not a really known problem14:49
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Macerkerio: i thought decompiled anything rewritten was fair game15:04
kerioi think that binary->decompiler->upload is stretching it15:05
Macerie: manage to learn how they did it and use that in order to write your own that will function15:05
divVerentDocScrutinizer05: yes, it's normally invisible15:05
keriono i meant batch uploading the decompiled source15:05
divVerentand just shows up as power up not doing "the right thing", and a second attempt to work15:05
divVerentso I suppose most people don'Ät even care :P15:05
divVerentto me it SEEMS to happen especially when connected to USB15:06
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Macernot sure15:06
Maceri'm pretty sure i saw an article about this15:06
kerioit's probably not going to be remotely good anyway15:06
kerioyou have to tweak a bunch of things when decompiling15:06
Macerthat you can take a decompiled program, rewrite, and distribute as you see fit15:06
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MacerIn the United States, the copyright fair use defense has been successfully invoked in decompilation cases. For example, in Sega v. Accolade, the court held that Accolade could lawfully engage in decompilation in order to circumvent the software locking mechanism used by Sega's game consoles15:08
Macerwow lol15:08
MacerIn Europe, the 1991 Software Directive explicitly provides for a right to decompile in order to achieve interoperability.15:09
Macerwikipedia has everything15:09
Macerso if you were to decompile and replace strictly using the decompiled program to achieve interoperability you are fine :)15:10
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DocScrutinizer05for those peeping:
DocScrutinizer05based on
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DocScrutinizer05[GENERAL NOTICE] in 3h from now, all services except tmo are expected to go down for a few hours16:04
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hanninghi, is there a "screen" for maemo/n900?16:48
inziirc tmux was in some repo16:50
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jogahmm, seems I have screen from somewhere, user doesn't seem to have permission to /var/run/screen though but it starts as root16:59
jogahaven't messed with the phone in a long time now since it's been working so well :p17:00
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divVerentcan anyone recommend a GOOD webkit browser for Maemo? As alternative to MicroB to try out.17:20
divVerentI think I have tried them all, and they all had annoying display issues...17:21
divVerentlike old pixels not being repainted when scrolling around, much more annoying than using white for not yet rendered areas17:21
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kerioew, why webkit? :(17:29
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deepywhy not webkit?17:31
jon_yisn't webkit from Apple?17:32
jon_ytherefore, eew :)17:32
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deepyEven better, it's also from Google17:33
jon_ydouble eew17:33
jon_yhard trying to escape from apple and google :)17:34
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divVerentjon_y: KTHML ;)17:35
divVerentseriously, though17:35
divVerentbecause I already have a good Gecko browser (MicroB)17:35
divVerentso I want to find out if a Webkit browser can perform better on the N900 or not17:35
divVerentI would _also_ like a tuned-for-speed ultrafast featureless browser17:36
divVerentI tried dillo for it, but it doesn't support drag-scrolling on the N90017:36
divVerentmaybe I should patch dillo for better N900 support... not sure how easy that would be though17:36
divVerentthe main things needed are dragscrolling, and "right click by click and hold"17:37
divVerentalso, virtual keyboard entry should work on location bar and input fields17:37
divVerentthat's basically it17:37
divVerentsome guy actually did something like it by emulating the middle mouse button for dragscroll using an external script... but that's ugly and can break in many ways17:37
divVerente.g. when switching out of dillo and into something else while dragscroll is active :P17:38
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divVerentwhich is BTW another idea I may want to do anyway on the N900... there is this mostly unused distance sensor thing, which can be used to emulate ONE extra mouse button17:38
divVerentby remapping mouse buttons via xmodmap when it's touched17:39
divVerentdo we have a SECOND mostly unused sensor/button available, for middle mouse? ;)17:39
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divVerenthm... for right mouse button I could probably live with something like ctrl-click, and use sensor-click for middle17:41
divVerentgiven most context menu options in dillo require keyboard input anyway (e.g. save as)17:42
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keriodivVerent: there's opera, for fast browsing17:50
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divVerentkerio: not really faster - more like equal to MicroB17:59
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divVerentOpera was indeed not quite bad17:59
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divVerentfaster for some stuff, slower for other stuff... but in the end slower for me17:59
divVerente.g. it's quite slow for large simple HTML files (ebooks)17:59
divVerentillegal ebooks, that is ;)17:59
divVerentbut, it has that "Turbo" proxy server feature, which is great when in GPRS or 3G18:00
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divVerentmaybe should check if I can somehow set up bookmark sync betwen MicroB and Opera, and change the browser switcher so that its default depends on 3G/Wifi :P18:00
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DocScrutinizer05waiting for godot, err Santa, err.... *the* DNS switch18:35
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filwhat repos should one be pointing at if one wants to track development of new stuff? (I get the impression that very little gets updated in the repos I'm currently using, so imagine developers are using repos elsewhere, or is there just very little development happening these days)18:43
keriothere's just very little development i'm afraid18:45
kerioDocScrutinizer05: why wasn't the TTL gradually lowered in this past week?18:46
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* kerio flees >:D18:46
ShadowJKI imagine bcause RTT to hostmaster exceeds a week ;D18:46
DocScrutinizer05kerio: no idea, ask nokia DNS-authority/hostmaster18:48
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filah -- looking around some recent forum posts, it looked like it might be the case that some parallel repos were being set up, with less insurmountable barriers to entry -- did I get that wrong, or was that done, but too late for all the potential developers who've already wandered off to pastures new?18:49
DocScrutinizer05fil: the problem are not the repos but the autobuilder18:50
DocScrutinizer05and that one been botked since I think november18:50
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filoh, ok -- so all packages are rebuilt from source, except when the autobuilder is broken? -- oops18:55
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filah, I see -- there are a load of things that apt-get update would like to install, but HAM doesn't mention -- what's the canonical way of keeping up to date these days then?  (is there anywhere that answers these dumb questions that I should be reading instead?)19:03
keriopackages are /built/ from source19:04
filwhat I'm after is something like Debian's testing, or if that's not available Debian's unstable19:04
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filkerio: so people just upload new source packages and let the autobuilder build them for the first time?  (I was rather expecting people to do a local build before upload)19:05
keriowell obviously they test them locally19:05
divVerentanyone have existing scripts-settings for emulating mittle and right mouse button (e.g. for X11 forwarding use)?19:05
keriobut the integrity of the binaries is only ensured by the fact that does the building and keeps the source19:05
divVerentlike, does X11 actually provide a nice way to do ctrl-click -> right mouse, or the like?19:06
divVerentI noticed that dbus-scripts can catch the camera button, which combined with xmodmap commands would give me ONE extra button. but I need two, and can't get dbus-scripts to work with proximityd as second button...19:06
filkerio: hence "rebuilt" ;-)19:07
divVerentI see that xbindkeys can be abused to support ctrl-click... together with xvkbd19:08
keriodivVerent: search the wiki for vi's awesome keyboard or something silly like that19:08
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kerio~factsearch vi19:09
kerio~factinfo vi19:09
infoboterror: you do not have enough flags for that. (o required)19:09
infobotvi -- last modified at Mon Feb 16 23:23:30 2004 by George-!; it has been requested 9 times, last by Deaod at Thu Jan 24 09:40:35 2013; it has been locked by vi.19:09
kerioDocScrutinizer05: how do i search factoids?19:09
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys kerio19:09
infobotFactoid search of 'kerio' by key (3): kerio #DEL# ;; oldtest kerioth ;; kerio.19:09
kerio~listkeys vi19:09
infobotFactoid search of 'vi' by key (13 of 1075): airport vix ;; beandog's favorite movie ;; because travis_143cw ;; cervisia ;; cmd: keighvin (.*?) ;; corewar virtual machine ;; eview ;; fbview ;; jargon virtual friday2 ;; linux loving sluts ;; media forte sf16-fmd2 v4l device driver ;; of course, i assume this device ;; oldtest mahavites.19:09
DocScrutinizer05~listvalues kerio19:10
infobotFactoid search of 'kerio' by value (2): oldtest kirioth ;; kerio.19:10
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divVerent I did find this, but it does not emulate mouse19:10
kerio~listvalues vi19:10
infobotFactoid search of 'vi' by value (19 of 9810): asynchronous communication ;; cd32 ;; domain name service ;; gene ;; graphics device interface ;; id2 ;; libgraph ;; mandrake ;; no minipci ;; oldtest nicodemus ;; pkgview ;; quake3 voodoo3 ;; rfc 1675 ;; rfc 647 ;; rfc994 ;; rsts/e ;; tuxtime ;; weathercode mvengue ;; x-rar.19:11
kerio~listvalues vi keyboard19:11
infobotFactoid search of 'vi keyboard' by value returned no results.19:11
kerio~listvalues vi.*keyboard19:11
infobotFactoid search of 'vi.*keyboard' by value returned no results.19:11
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys #maemo19:11
infobotFactoid search of '#maemo' by key (17 of 44): #maemo bmo ;; #maemo closed ;; #maemo closed_packages ;; #maemo db ;; #maemo dmo ;; #maemo donate ;; #maemo ek ;; #maemo fam ;; #maemo gmo ;; #maemo interim-dns ;; #maemo kp ;; #maemo lmo ;; #maemo mirrors ;; #maemo mo/* ;; #maemo multiboot ;; #maemo must ;; #maemo mustn't.19:11
divVerenthm... actually, I wonder if xbindkeys can be abused so that it catches key events while STILL keeping x11 process them19:12
divVerentso I could catch ctrl press AND release19:12
divVerentand do xmodmap commands on them19:12
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DocScrutinizer05~listauth vi19:12
infobotfactoid author list by 'vi' returned no results.19:12
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divVerentalso, assuming I do use xbindkeys - how to start it automatically?19:12
DocScrutinizer05~listauth vi_19:13
infobotfactoid author list by 'vi_' returned no results.19:13
DocScrutinizer05~listauth vi__19:13
infobotfactoid author list by 'vi__' returned no results.19:13
DocScrutinizer05~listauth vi___19:13
infobotfactoid author list by 'vi___' returned no results.19:13
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filI note that the signing key for the nokia repos have expired -- what's one supposed to do about that?19:29
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divVerentodd... even "xmodmap -e 'pointer = 3 2 1'" does not work on N900... why?19:32
divVerenttouch still sends left mouse19:32
divVerentat least to xev19:32
keriofil: pester nokia support, as a normal user, without any mention of or #maemo or HiFo19:35
filkerio: are we really expecting anyone at Nokia to give a shit at this point?19:36
keriofil: there's one nokia-ext dude who kinda cares a bit19:37
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filso is everyone else simply ignoring the warning, or is there a repo that's been signed by the community that obsoletes the nokia stuff?19:39
* fil also notes that hildon-initscripts is claiming to be unsigned, after I commented out the nokia repos19:40
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filthat's from fremantle/tools19:42
keriofil: just ignore the warning19:42
kerioif the download comes from it's probably as trustworthy as elop19:42
kerio...wait, shit19:42
filwell, quite :-)19:43
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DocScrutinizer05[GENERAL NOTICE] we've switched over DNS, everything except MX fine. When those changes will propagate to your personal NS you'll access new server. Right now that one is down for syncing. We hope to bring it up again a few hours later21:15
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DocScrutinizer05[GENERAL NOTICE] *new* is basically up and productive!22:53
DocScrutinizer05kudos to a brilliant tech team, particularly warfare, xes, jacekowski22:55
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M4rtinKThanks to all involved ! :D23:05
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M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: I'm going to test if autobuilder actually works right away. :)23:06
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: at least the cauldron list (or it's archive ?) seems to be still stuck:
sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: scp/dput/web assistant?23:08
DocScrutinizer05we're still about to crank up builder stuff etc23:08
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DocScrutinizer05cronjobs, whatnot else23:08
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M4rtinKsixwheeledbeast: probably will try all 3 in sequence :)23:08
M4rtinKI've actually submitted a package through the web interface 3 minutes ago :)23:09
sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: k may have another go later, let me know how it goes :)23:09
M4rtinKBTW, everything seems crazy fast so far :)23:09
sixwheeledbeastM4rtinK: I have submitted one via web iface couple days ago but no email back23:11
M4rtinKinteresting: <- 2013-03-14 18:19 UTC23:11
sixwheeledbeastthat as dput23:11
infobotsixwheeledbeast meant: that was dput23:11
M4rtinKalso looks like on "Latest packages" is up to date but "Latest builds" is outdated23:12
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M4rtinKIsn't DPUT basically just an overlay over SSH ?23:12
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jacekowskiit is23:15
sixwheeledbeastYes. A while back web assist was broken due to new python on server. jaceowski has fixed autobuilder recently.23:15
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jacekowskiM4rtinK: where did you get that rockbox?23:18
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M4rtinKjacekowski: "Latest packages" on
jacekowskithat's latest imports23:22
Macer3/14 for pi day23:22
Macersomeone should be shot in the face for that23:23
jacekowskii don't see your problem23:23
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sixwheeledbeastMacer: I'll take your word for it, cba waiting for the page to open23:25
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Macerheh... well.. it's a big number23:30
Macerscientists... lying again23:30
Macerbecause they need more money for their worthless machine23:31
M4rtinK136 MB :)23:32
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M4rtinKstill no luck with SCP23:41
M4rtinK"Permission denied (publickey)"23:41
M4rtinKso I've just updated the key23:43
M4rtinKwit the same key, just in case :)23:43
M4rtinKand as modRana has not yet been updated in the repository, the web uploaded package also got lost23:50
M4rtinKlets hope it works tomorrow :)23:51
DocScrutinizer05guys, could you wait a day or so, before you try to hammer the new server?23:57
DocScrutinizer05we're still busy starting up stuff23:57
sixwheeledbeastNo problem, was gonna wait for successful packages coming through, anyway.23:59

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