IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2013-03-10

MacerEstel_: if you say so00:00
Estel_substituting it with corporate indoctrinated speech about everything lookins as it should with their other products00:00
SpeedEvilFremantle that is, especially.00:00
freemangordonyeah. and now canonical going the google way00:00
Maceri know that hildon was amazingly closed while being marketed as a "OPEN PLATFORM" which was nothing more than a trend/fad back then00:00
Macersomething to market on00:00
Maceruntil the iphone came out00:00
Macerand destroyed them :)00:00
freemangordonMacer: hildon is as open as it can get00:00
Estel_I don't remember hildon being advertised almost at all ;)00:00
Macerthen the G1... just to add insult to injury00:00
freemangordonon fremantle at least00:00
Estel_and hildon is indeed open00:00
Macermy mistake heh00:00
Maceryou can't blame nokia00:01
Macerthey didn't own the omap ip :)00:01
Estel_frankly, you're sitting on irc, without any idea how buzzing maemo community is, 5 years after last device release ;)00:01
freemangordonMacer: you know that most of the fremantle(closed parts) was ready to be opensourced by may-june 201000:01
Estel_I just don't buy your thing about market rulling our woprld ;)00:01
SpeedEvilThe lack of the omap IP is essentially zero to do with the platform issues00:01
Macerdid they get the death ray enabled?00:01
SpeedEvilWould it have been nice - yes.00:02
Estel_freemangordon,  interesting, I haven't been informed about that00:02
MacerSpeedEvil: no? so there weren't issues getting certain things working on their "open" device like say.. the modem? :) or running different Operating systems like nitdroid?00:02
freemangordonMacer: iirc stskeeps was the repo master or something00:02
SpeedEvilIs it relevant, compared to the platform lockdown due to the twisty maze of daemons - no.00:02
* Macer looks around00:02
Macerif the device was really opened like it was marketed... they'd be selling them out00:03
Macerskype had a ton of N900s to sell :)00:03
Macerand anybody can get skype00:03
freemangordonMacer: n900 was not marketed00:03
SpeedEvilIn many ways other OSs that can run on hardware do not interest me.00:03
SpeedEvilNetwork effects are huge00:03
Macerfreemangordon: how much marketing has the pi gotten?00:03
Macerthey seem to be selling them hand over fist00:03
SpeedEvilMacer: Lots00:04
Macerlots? LOL00:04
SpeedEvilIt just happened to be free advertising, done very, very well.00:04
Maceryeah i see pi commercials all day long :)00:04
sixwheeledbeastMacer: pi has had lots of marketing hence popularity00:04
Estel_Macer,  quite a lot, and N900 was released on 200800:04
freemangordonMacer: do you know what the real purpose of Pi is?00:04
Estel_things look different with buyer awareness in 201200:04
freemangordonEstel_: end of 200900:04
Macerfreemangordon: sure. an engineering board00:04
Estel_btw pi is something different that it was planned to be00:04
freemangordonMacer: no00:04
jacekowskia lot of people bought pi just because it was cheap00:04
Macerlearning board00:05
Maceri guess00:05
Estel_for kids00:05
Macerinstructional educational00:05
Estel_including UK goverment support00:05
SpeedEvilPi is basically completely boring hardware.00:05
jacekowskii bought pi to run xbmc on it00:05
MacerSpeedEvil: yes it is00:05
SpeedEvilThere is nothing whatsoever interesting about the hardware.00:05
Macerthe only reason people got a pi00:05
Macerand it is so successful00:05
Maceris because of xbmc :)00:05
SpeedEvilThe only interesting thing is the volume, and the price00:05
Macerlets be honest heh00:05
freemangordonSpeedEvil: but it is playing 1080p :)00:05
Estel_bullshit, frankly00:05
M4rtinKalso XBMC, at least initially00:05
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: exactly and on the news all the time plus in UK schools all over now00:05
M4rtinKhaven't got to installing it yet00:05
Macerif pi didn't run xbmc and run 1080p video at $4000:05
Macerit would be gone like the n900 :)00:06
Estel_most people bought pi as cheap dev platform for strange projects ;)00:06
Macerno longer produced00:06
M4rtinKhave a 3D printed case for it lying in Prague though :)00:06
SpeedEvilMacer: I have actually seen primetime TV on the Pi - before it launched00:06
Estel_Pi cant run DVD00:06
MacerEstel_: wtf uses mpeg2 nowadays?00:06
Estel_many complains about it, but people haven't stop buying ti because of that00:06
Maceris it 1993 again?00:06
Estel_3/4 of home cinema consumers00:06
M4rtinKthey added mpeg2 support recently00:06
freemangordonM4rtinK: is it licensed?00:06
Estel_M4rtinK,  nice to know00:06
M4rtinKit is paid00:07
M4rtinKlike 3$ ?00:07
Macer3/4 of home cinema consumers?00:07
freemangordonM4rtinK: o, thanks00:07
Maceruse mpeg.....2?00:07
Estel_sure, do you think that most consumers use blueray already, lol?00:07
Estel_DVD's are stillmost common00:07
M4rtinKI'll get an official link00:07
Maceri guess if you count the poor countries you might be correct00:07
Estel_then you live in fake world of what corporations would like you to think :P00:07
Macerbut in real countries i don't see the need for discs at all00:07
Estel_sure, include all europe in poor countries00:08
sixwheeledbeastMacer: beagleboard could do XMBC long before Pi, where is beagleboard now?00:08
freemangordonMacer: hehe, seems I live in a *real* country then :D00:08
Estel_and half usa00:08
Macersixwheeledbeast: i don't remember it being able to handle 1080p/dts at full speed via smb00:08
Estel_blueray is very popular, but people still own dvd+ that they dont plan to throw out00:08
Macersixwheeledbeast: i'd have bought one  if it did00:08
freemangordonMacer: we need nor DVDs neither Blueray00:08
M4rtinKso the only remaining problem should be the 10bit encodes that are recently showing up :)00:08 = pi's sucess00:09
Maceri disagree00:09
Estel_anyway, Macer, you know what the funny thing is about your way of thinking?00:09
M4rtinKalso standard definition DVB-T is MPEG2 IIRC00:09
Maceri can't see a show about "wow! kids can learn to solder"00:09
SpeedEvilMacer: Are you in the UK?00:09
Macerit sounds like an infomercial00:09
Estel_3/4 of people talking here now got mobile deivce with super-duper hardware00:09
Estel_1 GB of ram00:09
Estel_gathering dust ;)00:09
SpeedEvilMacer: In the UK, the media coverage of the Pi was quite astonishing00:09
Estel_while N900 is still in daily use00:09
freemangordonMacer: Pi is the thing to be used in UK Schools for PC00:09
M4rtinKLumia 800 :D00:09
SpeedEvilfreemangordon: IT's basically not.00:10
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Macerfreemangordon: that would be awesome00:10
SpeedEvilOther than in small numbers.00:10
Maceri considered making pi workstations00:10
Estel_M4rtinK,  dvb-t is mpeg2 in germany, for example00:10
freemangordonSpeedEvil: this is what I know00:10
Estel_Poland and uk have it mpeg400:10
M4rtinKprobably same here (CZ)00:10
Estel_M4rtinK,  I thought about N95000:10
Estel_but lumia or whatever00:10
Estel_my family members used to use androids00:10
M4rtinKI use my N950 for Nemo00:10
Estel_all switched to N900, just due to noticing what I can achieve with it00:11
M4rtinKquite a lot foster than N900 for it00:11
Estel_from tech-hippies to my mother00:11
freemangordonSpeedEvil: from wikipedia - "The Raspberry Pi is a credit-card-sized single-board computer developed in the UK by the Raspberry Pi Foundation with the intention of promoting the teaching of basic computer science in schools.["00:11
jacekowskidvb-t was originally mpeg2 only00:11
SpeedEvilfreemangordon: right - intention.00:11
jacekowskiand it still, is, h264 is a hack using parts of dvb-t2 specification00:11
freemangordonSpeedEvil: aah, ok :)00:11
Estel_marketing and knowledge :) people don't know, most of the times, that possibility of having real mobile computer in pocket, is real00:11
Estel_because big companies make smartphones, not computers00:12
jacekowskisixwheeledbeast: beagleboard had no marketing00:12
SpeedEvilfreemangordon: the actual number in schools is really small - simply as the teachers aren't there.00:12
jacekowskisixwheeledbeast: and beagleboard costs 4x as much, and bb has no hdmi00:12
sixwheeledbeastjacekowski: exactly00:13
Estel_if Nokia would properly use Community interest and achievement with N900, and cooperate with opening things that could be open, they would rule the market ages ago00:13
Estel_not to mention being sucessfuly with new devices, and loved as FOSS friendly company ;)00:13
sixwheeledbeastcost is a small factor I agree00:13
jacekowskiMacer: and marketing wise00:13
jacekowskiMacer: i've heard about rpi, everywhere00:13
Estel_thing is that invisible hand of market isn't so powerful as some people would like it to be00:14
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Estel_especially compared to personal interests00:14
Macerlike the no longer produced n900? :)00:14
jacekowskiMacer: local electronic shop has them in stock, and you could find a lot stuff about it on the internet00:14
SpeedEvil Network effects matter. Once you have a million boards out there, you've (for some values of won) won.00:14
Estel_Macer,  well, I don't see how it related to what I've just said00:14
SpeedEvilEven if 99.9% of people do boring stuff with them, you've got a really vibrant core community00:14
jacekowskiMacer: only place you can find out about beagleboard was #maemo00:14
SpeedEvilI think I heard about it on #edev00:15
SpeedEvilBut, ...00:15
M4rtinK#beagleboard ?00:15
Estel_thankfully, self-manufacturing changes many things00:15
jacekowskiif you were to ask people year ago about rpi or bb00:15
jacekowskinobody would have heard about bb00:15
SpeedEvilEstel_: Unfortunately, self manufacturing can be murderously expensive00:15
M4rtinKhas 13 people on it :)00:15
jacekowskiand at least few would have heard about rpi00:15
jacekowskiM4rtinK: #beagle00:15
Estel_SpeedEvil,  10 times cheaper than it was 3 years ago00:16
freemangordonEstel_: unfortunately one cannot self-manifacture everything00:16
jacekowski23:16 -!- Irssi: #beagle: Total of 162 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 162 normal]00:16
M4rtinKoh :)00:16
Estel_although generally, I agree00:16
SpeedEvilEstel_: No, i's not00:16
M4rtinKfreemangordon: not yet :)00:16
Estel_SpeedEvil,  tell me more, I own CNC machine myself, self made :P00:16
Estel_I know about costs etc00:16
Estel_I know how much 3D printer was costing 3 years ago00:16
freemangordonM4rtinK: 3d printers? :)00:16
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: 0.1% core community is not enough to make profit00:16
Estel_and how cheaply can it be done now00:17
M4rtinKfreemangordon: yep00:17
Estel_btw by self-manufacturing I mean whole idea00:17
M4rtinKevery conference I attended in the last year had at leas one :D00:17
SpeedEvil3d printers are rather different.00:17
Estel_like, people funding games they like via kickstarter, in ammounts of n 000 000 dollars per game00:17
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M4rtinKyeah, but already quite useful :)00:17
Estel_SpeedEvil,  ah, sure, electronic is still fckn expensive00:17
jacekowskisoftware is cheap to develop00:18
Estel_may change with 3d printers being able to print circuits ;)00:18
jacekowskin900 is 12 layer board iirc00:18
freemangordonjacekowski: is it?00:18
jacekowskifreemangordon: compared to hardware00:18
freemangordonjacekowski: (cheap SW)00:18
jacekowskifreemangordon: where you need SW + HW00:18
freemangordonjacekowski: hmm, last time I've check that was on the opposite00:18
jacekowskiand with HW if you get things wrong, you can't fix them00:18
Estel_I think he mean everything, including projects etc00:18
SpeedEviljacekowski: Plus wierd flex stuff.00:19
jacekowskiyou end up with 1000s of boards that can be thrown away00:19
sixwheeledbeastwut, 12 layers really?00:19
jacekowskisixwheeledbeast: yes00:19
Estel_as said, look at gaming company. EA and other "evil empire" bullshit companies are spltting castrated games...00:19
SpeedEvilI can believe it. If you want to get dense BGAs on both sides of the board.00:19
jacekowskibb is 12 layers00:19
Estel_While witcher sell millions copies, starting from almost nothing00:19
Estel_widelands 2 is entirely finances via kickstarter before even getting produced00:20
Estel_and i talk about 2 000 000 dollars, not 100 bucks00:20
jacekowskianyways, hardware is much harder and expensive to produce00:20
jacekowskiimagine HW company releasing hardware with bugs like you get in software00:20
Estel_it's kind of self-manufacturing to, based on trust... crowdfunding, as they call it00:20
freemangordonjacekowski: TI?00:20
jacekowskisending an "update" doubles their costs00:21
Macerjacekowski: like simcity? :)00:21
freemangordonjacekowski: AMD, Intel...00:21
jacekowskifreemangordon: like what?00:21
jacekowskifpdiv bug in intel ages ago00:21
Estel_freemangordon,  but when talking about HW cost, you need to include design00:21
jacekowskiand it did cost them00:21
Estel_producing machines00:21
Maceramazon quit sending out simcity heh00:21
Estel_not net cost of board00:21
Maceri don't understand why they'd make simcity a constantly connected mmo anyways00:22
freemangordonAMD and phenom, intel and pentium fdiv bug, TI and all ARM erratas00:22
jacekowskiand test runs00:22
Macerfreemangordon: the real question is.. would they have even said anything if they weren't discovered?00:22
freemangordonjacekowski: I am not actually arguing, just sayng that shit happens on HW side too00:22
Estel_freemangordon,  + look at what we have with linux/GNU, and how young is open hardware00:22
Estel_it's all because of costs00:23
jacekowskifreemangordon: i'm saying that HW bug costs a lot more to fix, so there is a lot less of those00:23
SpeedEvilOpen hardware designs were around in 198000:23
Estel_hardware is more complicated to self develop, thus more costly00:23
Maceri don't know. i think hardware is a bit different heh00:23
SpeedEvilOr earlier00:23
Macerthe problem with awesome open hardware is china00:23
jacekowskilook at openpandora00:23
Macerthey will replicate it to death00:23
Macerand knock it off as well00:24
Estel_SpeedEvil,  you're right, I mean ammount of influence open software have, over open hardware00:24
SpeedEvilOpen software was big before the IBM breakup00:24
jacekowski539 eur for arm based device00:24
freemangordonhardware is way harder not to say impossible fo individuals to produce00:24
SpeedEvilIt only really closed after00:24
sixwheeledbeastMacer: isn't the point that it's open so there no point copying?00:24
jacekowskiwhile company like sony sells their psv for half of that00:24
jacekowskiand they still make profit on it00:24
SpeedEvilfreemangordon: There is a nutter in ##electronics DIYing his own large FPGA boards, and making his own chips (or starting on that route)00:25
Estel_...and people still love pandora due to being as open as it gets :)00:25
M4rtinK<offtopic>modRana work on OpenPanodra :)</offtopic>00:25
SpeedEvilfreemangordon: azonberg - awesome effort.00:25
Estel_SpeedEvil,  I wonder how he achieved it?00:25
jacekowskiEstel_: and they've sold like 5 of those00:25
jacekowskiEstel_: probably not even that much00:25
Estel_jacekowski,  what?00:25
Estel_Pandora was all sold00:25
SpeedEvilEstel_: toaster oven00:25
Estel_even before geting alive00:26
Estel_then next batches were create 3 or 4 times00:26
jacekowskihow many did they sell in total00:26
Estel_IDK, as for project with 0 as in 0 marketing, they sold thousands afaik00:26
Estel_they published info some time ago00:26
Estel_don't want to lie, but it was 5k total?00:26
Estel_and consider how ridicolously overpriced it is00:27
Estel_SpeedEvil,  hm00:27
jacekowskisony sold 100s as many PSVs in one day00:27
Estel_I wonder how expensive toaster oven is to DIY00:27
jacekowski160k in one day00:27
Estel_jacekowskop, comparing grapples to oranges?00:27
freemangordonEstel_: shouldn;t be that nuch :)00:27
jacekowskiEstel_: pandora is sold as a gaming hardware00:28
SpeedEvilEstel_: I am actually planning on DIYing a toaster oven, because existing ones annoy me.00:28
Estel_jacekowski,  it is like I would finish my alu body replacement project, and start to compare sales with mugen covers or otterboxes00:28
SpeedEvilEstel_: Energy efficiency sucks, and they take way too long to come up to temperature.00:28
XDS2010How do i delete the amazon icon from my n900 ?00:28
XDS2010Estel_:  i finally got backup menu installed00:28
SpeedEvilEstel_: How were you planning to do the antannae?00:28
Estel_SpeedEvil,  interesting... I need to finish my cnc related projects, then build 3D printer, then toaster oven sounds like natural next... :P00:29
Estel_SpeedEvil,  connecting it to parts of body that are alu and separate from rest of body00:29
Estel_although, visually, monolitic00:29
Estel_you know, re-doing build in antennas, just using bigger and better due to it touching air on outside00:29
SpeedEvilEstel_: you mean seprate sections of the case to form the antennae?00:30
sixwheeledbeastpotential iphone 4 issue?00:30
SpeedEvilThat's going to be a whole heap of pain00:30
Estel_SpeedEvil,  tested it all in 4nec and now doing real life tests and fixes every few days00:30
Estel_it is00:30
SpeedEvilThe 'best' way to approach it would probably be to do really good simulations.00:30
Estel_but something *** made me tol promise alu body :P00:30
Estel_antenna simulator00:30
Estel_open source one ;)00:31
Estel_well, personally I see wood body much better00:31
SpeedEvilFor BT/wifi/all frequencies of cellular?00:31
Estel_if you use correct wood and coloring00:31
Estel_SpeedEvil,  yea00:31
Estel_but cellular is separate one00:31
SpeedEvilFM? :)00:31
infobotEstel_ meant: but gps is separate one00:31
Estel_no, I'm not doing one for fm receiver .P00:32
SpeedEvilOh, I forgot GPS00:32
Estel_headset is working ok00:32
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freemangordonEstel_: what about TX?00:32
Estel_freemangordon,  of course working, but this one is less picky00:32
freemangordoniirc it is not shared with BT00:32
Estel_works better than vanilla even just being connected to any alu brick outside00:32
Estel_no, fm is separate00:32
Estel_fm tx00:33
XDS2010Estel_:  got backupmenu finally installed00:33
XDS2010thank you for all your help00:33
Estel_for sure fmtx in replacement body will work better than vanilla :)00:33
Estel_XDS2010,  nice to hear, saw it00:33
XDS2010i really appreciate it00:33
Estel_I'm glad you've made it00:33
XDS2010Estel_:  what are your thoughts here ? should i sell ?00:33
Estel_freemangordon,  BTW, doing separate connector for external antenna for fmtx is easy too00:33
XDS2010:-/ im so torn!00:34
Estel_XDS2010,  you've lost me on that one? sell what?00:34
XDS2010my n90000:34
XDS2010the iphone is so cool00:34
Estel_if it's malfunctioning, sure, and buy used one that works :)00:34
Estel_if you think iphone is cool, then you may think about selling N900 indeed00:34
XDS2010its not malfunctioning i need the money man00:35
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Estel_so why asking me? :P00:35
Estel_ask yourself what you want00:35
XDS2010i am so torn00:35
Estel_I would sell iphone for sure ;)00:35
XDS2010sell iphone ?00:35
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Estel_if you need money... ;)00:35
XDS2010Estel_:  the thing is im just now realizing just how good the n900 is00:35
Estel_look, I'm not good advisor here, for me iphone is pathetic00:36
Sysaxedwhat is the question :D00:36
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Estel_XDS2010,  maybe you've made first step into bigger, more beautiful world :P00:36
XDS2010i didn't know you could schedule events based on if or not the keyboard and lens cover where opened00:36
XDS2010Sysaxed:  weather i should sell my n90000:36
Estel_you can do with ith basically anything that could be done with linux desktop pc00:36
SysaxedXDS2010, oh why?00:36
Estel_I tyink Sysaxed was asking rhetorically :)00:37
XDS2010Sysaxed:  i want an iphone i wanna be cool00:37
SysaxedXDS2010, are you kidding me?00:37
Estel_I feel like being trolled by someone on purpose ):<00:37
SysaxedEstel_, exactly00:37
XDS2010Estel_:  im not trolling man00:37
Estel_but I'm afraid he is serious, and that is worse00:37
XDS2010im so torn why are you mocking me ?00:37
Estel_freemangordon,  btw, bulding own fm transmitter with 1W power is super easy and cheap...00:38
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XDS2010Sysaxed:  im just now realizing just how good the n900 is00:38
Estel_but idea of having N900 with external antenna connected to FMTX and pirate radio station is still cool to much to skip it ;)00:38
XDS2010i can do things with it i can't do on a iphone00:38
freemangordonXDS2010: orly?00:38
Sysaxedfor example.. multitasking00:38
Estel_choose your own path through the force :P00:38
Sysaxedreal one00:39
XDS2010freemangordon:  huh?00:39
Estel_he was ironic, you know :)00:39
SysaxedXDS2010, it's just weird for us to compare n900 to iphone00:39
Estel_here, fact that you can do more things with N900 is quite natural00:39
XDS2010Sysaxed:  well multitasking on a phone is kinda passe00:39
XDS2010Sysaxed:  why ? it has some similar hardware00:39
Estel_I'm going to eat something, definitelly00:39
XDS2010the GPU is similar00:40
Estel_0_o aaa!00:40
iweronHello everybody00:40
SysaxedXDS2010, hardware does not matter00:40
iweronI have a problem with my n900 D:00:40
XDS2010iweron:  shoot!00:40
XDS2010..not to low00:40
Estel_we're glad that now with iphone00:40
SysaxedXDS2010, well it matters.. Iphone lacks fm transmitter, infrared port and a keyboard..00:40
infobotEstel_ meant: we're glad that not with iphone00:40
XDS2010Sysaxed:  the IR on the n900 is only tx, fm will probably be done later with a hack, and the keyboard is really passey for me00:41
XDS2010Sysaxed:  i have BlinQ for IR00:42
Estel_fm wull be done? wtf are you talking about?00:42
Sysaxedwith a hack? what? what?00:42
Estel_hey, you feel bad having keyboard? interesting case.00:42
* Estel_ start taking notes00:43
XDS2010Sysaxed:  you should lead with , It has a lighted keyboard, FM and RDS support OOTB, all movements with the device can be keymapped. And its well designed00:43
iweronthe problem with battery. In fact there is broken wifi in my n900, so I have to unload wifi drivers, otherwise I will get a kernel panic. But wifi module also consumes a lot of battery power, so my phone discharges every 6-8 hours00:43
Estel_...and /me brings microscope for dna analysis00:43
iweronthis is weird00:43
iweronwhat to do? =\00:43
Estel_iweron,  I don't udnerstand a single thing from that00:44
Estel_one problem at a time please00:44
Estel_what's wrong with wifi?00:44
XDS2010Estel_:  i have big fingers it actually hurts to type with the keyboard00:44
XDS2010iweron:  if you don't have any user data on the device you could flash00:44
XDS2010which is probably what im going to need to do soon too00:45
SysaxedXDS2010, it wont help00:45
sixwheeledbeastiwron: like this?
iweronthe main problem: my device discharges from the full battery to 0% in 6 hours00:45
XDS2010Sysaxed:  are you going to think less of me if i jump ship ?00:45
SysaxedXDS2010, just answered your question00:46
iweronacually wlan never worked00:46
Sysaxedsuggestion* really00:46
infobotsixwheeledbeast meant: iweron like this?
kerioiweron: reflash00:46
iweron5 times00:46
keriook, stop reflashing00:46
XDS2010Sysaxed:  really WHY!!!!!00:46
kerioiweron: hardware problem00:47
keriosucks 2 be u00:47
XDS2010i love you guys?00:47
iweronlike this00:47
iweronthe same problem00:47
XDS2010Sysaxed:  i mean look where the hell blackberry ended up. They are using Qtx for pete sake00:47
iweronbut, I can live without a wifi since 3G works00:47
XDS2010Thats some of the same systems that are used in the space shuttle00:48
SysaxedXDS2010, oh come on, I just don't care :)00:48
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iweronthe main problem is that battery lives only 6 hours00:48
XDS2010to hell with you then!00:48
DocScrutinizer05"the doctor is: here"00:48
kerioiweron: so buy a new battery00:48
XDS2010Doctor doctor!00:48
keriooh, this channel isn't +c?00:48
iweronI have 4 batteries00:48
XDS2010should i sell !?00:48
iweronone original nokia00:49
kerioiweron: combine them00:49
kerioit's actually possible :)00:49
Sysaxedkerio, what a suggestion...00:49
keriobut really, but a serious battery00:49
keriolike a polarcell00:49
XDS2010ok how do i delete all my data without flashing ?00:49
iweronI change batteries every 6 hours and use another nokia phone to charge discharged ones00:49
XDS2010every bit of user data00:49
Sysaxedkerio, what about carrying a diesel generator with you00:50
Sysaxedno seriously...00:50
kerioiweron: what the fuck dude00:50
Estel_powertop output please00:50
XDS2010kerio:  get a solio or a energizer to go kit, the black one00:50
sixwheeledbeastiweron: dmsg, powertop, top; outputs?00:50
Estel_~spank kerio00:50
iweronmaybe I should buy a tritium battery00:50
* infobot bends kerio over his knee and tatoos 'ibot' on kerio's pasty white buttocks.00:50
XDS2010i have the ENG kit its slick and very stylish00:51
Estel_kerio why making jokes olf him instead of asking for top powertop output00:51
Estel_XDS2010,  sell both phones and go rethink your life00:51
Estel_come back when you stop thinking that having this or that device model makes you cool or not00:51
XDS2010Estel_:  but i wanna be with the cool kids :(00:52
Estel_and stop trolling me :P00:52
SysaxedXDS2010, there was a nice thread about it!00:52
iweronI made some tests with powertop and compared them to my friend's outputs, I have less wakeups and 97% - 250 MHz00:53
kerioyou don't want to be at 250mhz00:53
sixwheeledbeastpastebin the full output "sudo powertop"00:53
kerioyou want to be at 000:53
iweronok, wait a min00:54
sixwheeledbeastscreen off and flight mode pref.00:54
sixwheeledbeastoh and not on charge :rolleyes:00:54
iweronkerio, should I change configs for min freq?00:54
kerioyou should stay with stock00:55
iweronstock is 250-60000:55
iweronso there is no 000:56
DocScrutinizer05INCREDIBLE!!!!! >><Estel_> and stop trolling me :P <<00:56
sixwheeledbeastiweron: yes but 0 is idle00:56
iweronhow to save powertop output?00:56
Estel_oh, Doc is here, do we have a psychiatrist around? :P00:57
freemangordoniweron: powertop > powerto.log00:57
DocScrutinizer05redirect stdout?00:57
Estel_iweron,  we know better than there is 000:57
Estel_just do powertop00:57
Estel_and zerobin it00:57
Estel_else as freemangordon said, or via copy and paste from terminal to zerobin00:58
DocScrutinizer05>/bin/zero ?00:58
Estel_LMGTFY zerobin :P00:58
DocScrutinizer05powertop|pastebinit; won't work due to timeout, eh?00:59
infobotrumour has it, lmgtfy is
Estel_infobot need pluging to lmgtfy'ing phrases00:59
Estel_~lmgtfy zerobin01:00
* infobot thinks you should look here:
Estel_this is it!01:00
infobotaw, gee, Estel_01:00
DocScrutinizer05fsckng lmgtfy tried to place ~150 cookies to me01:02
DocScrutinizer05I have "cookies: ask"01:02
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  is there an easy way to wipe out my user data off my n90001:03
DocScrutinizer05sure, do a full reflash01:03
XDS2010without doing a flash01:03
DocScrutinizer05honestly, if you want better answer, ask better more detailed question01:03
XDS2010i want to keeyp apps01:04
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  you're right my bad01:04
DocScrutinizer05so what exactly do you want to delete?01:04
freemangordonXDS2010: got to settings, in the menu there is a button "clear"01:05
DocScrutinizer05$userdata is a really fuzzy term01:05
XDS2010stuff like wifi passwords, preferences, anything personal really01:05
freemangordontry it, no idea what it will do, but I guess it will clean contacts, mails, messages and such01:05
DocScrutinizer05make a backup with builtin backup app, then try what freemangordon suggested01:05
DocScrutinizer05odds are it will break your system, so in the end you'll reflash anyway, and then restore apps from backup01:06
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  freemangordon  i made a backup with Backupmenu (bootmenu) with the slide open keyboard on boot option and also backed up the my docs folder01:06
DocScrutinizer05then you got nothing to lose when you try whatever you feel might do it for you01:07
DocScrutinizer05since you got a *full* beckup01:07
DocScrutinizer05check what's your kernel though01:08
DocScrutinizer05BM backups can only get restored to same kernel they were taken under01:08
DocScrutinizer05undertaken?? ;-P01:08
* DocScrutinizer05 feels like an undertaker01:09
Estel_XDS2010,  this guy use N900:01:10
XDS2010whats the default unlock code ?01:10
Estel_and this guy use iphone:01:10
Estel_which one you want to be? :P01:10
Estel_XDS2010,  1234501:10
Estel_could figured that yourself01:10
Estel_iweron,  your powertop looks ok01:11
Estel_try deleting all widgets01:11
Estel_and check if that helps01:11
Estel_with power usage01:11
XDS2010ok looks like it worked01:11
Estel_if not, maybe your battery is eol?01:11
iweronAlready done01:12
iweronI desktop01:12
iweronno widgets01:12
Estel_iweron,  no idea wtf01:12
freemangordoniweron: how old are your batteries?01:12
Estel_hardware issue? you said you've reflashed01:12
Estel_iweron,  get bq27200.sh01:12
Estel_make sure you have bq27x00_battery module unloaded01:13
Estel_then invoke from terminal01:13 501:13
Estel_(I need to finally finish my reqrite of to work with bq27x00_battery module in loop mode)01:13
Estel_no, wait01:13
Estel_do 30 actually01:13
Estel_then disable everything01:13
Estel_and loks device for 5 mins01:13
Estel_then paste output01:14
iweronoriginal nokia is 2 year old, another one is half of a year, and two others ~ one year old01:14
Estel_next, do same thing without disabling things01:14
Estel_i.e normal connection01:14
Estel_phone locked, etc01:14
Estel_output here01:14
freemangordoniweron: where did you get those "new" ones? are they original?01:14
Estel_last bt not least, do same while keeping screen on, but not doing much other things01:14
Estel_and paste output01:14
DocScrutinizer05iweron: that powertop looks pretty good01:14
Estel_it will tell us your standby, idle, and screen on power usage01:14
Estel_if that is ok, then you got crappy battery01:15
Estel_like 400 mAh01:15 in loop 30 will tell us your real power usage every 30 seconds01:15
iweronnokia is original, others are bought from shops and ebay. i tested them on other n900 device, they worked for 3-4 days01:15
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Estel_iweron, so do as I've described01:15
iweronDo I already have this bq27200 on my phone or I have to dw it?01:16
Estel_either something is sucking power without affecting powertop output, or hardware issue01:16
iweronWhat do you mean disable everything? Flight mode?01:16
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  mind sharing him link to
Estel_for 1st test only01:16
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, bq27k-detail is
Estel_also, install i2c-tools from devel01:17 is in same folder01:17
Estel_as require i2cget01:17
iweronmy wifi doesn't work - hw issue and now I don't have 3G01:18
iweronmaybe deb?01:18
DocScrutinizer05sucking power without powertop noticing it? CMT!01:18
DocScrutinizer05switch to flight mode01:18
infobotmirror is, like,, or - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new01:18
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DocScrutinizer05iweron: run `powertop; 30 ` on normal device, with no charger attached, no special modes, just screen locked, for ~5 minutes. then pastebin the output01:21
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iweronnow running it01:33
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iweronshould I stop bq27200 manually?01:43
Estel_if you want answer about #evice with issues, do those 3 simple tests I've requsted01:44
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Estel_powertop tell about cpu related things, and many other hardware parts may suck power, not necessarily waking cpu01:45
Estel_but first, we need to filter out it being anything from system side, or hardware problem01:45
iweronbq with normal settings is ready01:46 will tell us your power draw, as low as it goes. If something suck mAh without showing it, it will be at level of hardware short01:46
Estel_on device with issues?01:46
Estel_and define normal01:46
Estel_screen on/off?01:46
Estel_3G on/off? cellular?01:46
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Estel_connected or just logged in to network01:47
Estel_no other things working?01:47
iweron3g off, just logged to network, flight off, wifi off/unloaded01:47
Estel_ok, now flight mode and everything disabled, and last one will be with screen ON and connections normal01:47
Estel_we will compare state where it should eat 3-4 mA (all disabled), 7-10 mA (just logged in to gsm, but screen and connections off) and one with screen on (100-200 mA, depending on if you keep screen on by touching it, or by things like simple brigthness widget - the latter consumes less)01:48
Estel_if we notice unusual high usage on any of those modes - especially twp with screen off - then we will know that something is sucking power and bq27x00 hardware know about it, but cpu doesn't01:49
Estel_otherwise, it's either battery fault (but you said that those batteries work ok on another N900), or hardware failure on that N900, some power leak in hardware level01:50
iweronit is even worse that it could be01:50
iweronanyway how to turn on flight mode?01:51
Estel_power key-> offline mode01:52
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DocScrutinizer05iweron: hmm?01:52
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DocScrutinizer05what's worse and why and worse than what?01:52
Estel_look at his pastebin and bq usage01:53
Estel_90 mA idle device, just connected to gsm and screen off01:53
DocScrutinizer05ktnx I did01:53
Estel_very high usage, and reason for battery living only 6h01:53
Estel_but, finish other tests too, pls01:53
iweronI see01:53
Estel_will be easier to filter out issue01:54
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  - actual usage01:54
Estel_14h if he never touches his device01:54
Estel_should be ~1200/1001:54
iweronbut I use it every day01:54
Estel_at least thise01:54
DocScrutinizer05and 5000h when he recharges in between01:54
Estel_iweron, it's ok, but 90 mA when idle is very bad01:55
iweronactually, it shows 80-90% at full charge01:55
DocScrutinizer05no, it's not01:55
Estel_yes, it is.01:55
Sysaxedit is :C01:55
Estel_especially if bq does measure every 30 seconds, as i requested01:55
DocScrutinizer05it's actually quite within limits with GSM enabled01:55
SysaxedDocScrutinizer05, no way01:55
Estel_unless you're with 1p% signal strenght, it's not01:55
DocScrutinizer05and particularly with WLAN enabled but not associated01:55
DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: aha01:56
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: signal strengh is vastly irrelevant01:56
DocScrutinizer05traffic is relevant01:56
Estel_bullshit, as he have wlan disabled and damaged, and, more importantly, proper wifi not associatedd and set to scan every 15 min or so shouldnt result in this01:56
Estel_never, ever, saw such usage for my device with gsm logged in01:56
Estel_heckp, even with connected to gprs01:56
DocScrutinizer05carrier could have no NAT/firewall and lots of ping or other inbound traffic keeping cmt busy01:57
iweronIt seems that wifi module unload didn't help01:57
Estel_should be 7-10 mA in ideal case01:57
Sysaxedwell, I saw such usage.. when something was keeping my cpu alive at high frequencies01:57
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Sysaxedbut that's not the case01:57
DocScrutinizer05lol, wlan damaged01:57
Estel_iweron, btw, your wifi, how it got damages? It's very rare thing to break01:57
DocScrutinizer05who diagnosed that? YOU?01:57
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  read backscroll01:58
Estel_and hope that your libido will get lower during doing that ;)01:58
DocScrutinizer05nah, too much of your noise in backscroll01:58
Estel_*shrug* so gtfo01:58
Sysaxedstop it, guys01:58
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: gtfo yourself01:58
DocScrutinizer05I can help you if you need01:58
Sysaxedguys :C01:58
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iweronflight mode on01:59
iweronscreen off01:59
SysaxedIt's a first time I see that shit on such a friendly irc channel :\\01:59
DocScrutinizer05iweron: sorry i'm out, ask Mr Estel_, I'm sure he'll tell you extremely nifty way to make sure your wlan is damaged01:59
Estel_Sysaxed,  then you havent seen what DocScrutinizer05 is capable off :P02:00
Estel_of, even02:00
Estel_iweron,  thx02:00
SysaxedEstel_, he was very friendly02:00
Estel_try to disagree with him ;)02:00
Estel_for example about feasibility of using sqlite database to store map tiles :P02:00
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Estel_ok, enough.02:00
Sysaxedwell, I do disagree that 90 mA usage is ok... XD02:00
Estel_checking pastebin02:00
Estel_as i suspected02:01
Estel_~90 mA in flight mode02:01
Estel_= same as with gsm connected02:01
iweronDocScrutinizer05, whatever, but what do you think is it?02:01
DocScrutinizer05iweron: sorry i'm out, ask Mr Estel_, I'm sure he'll tell you extremely nifty way to make sure your wlan is damaged02:01
Estel_some shit is eating your power02:02
SysaxedEstel_, maybe it's a good idea to try it out with sim card inserted?02:02
Estel_btw see my question about how your wlan got damaged02:02
SysaxedEstel_, or maybe run the test as fast as he could after boot?02:02
Estel_Sysaxed,  he have sim card as i understand it?02:02
Estel_fast after boot wont help, n900 may be busy rightly02:02
iweronI have no idea how02:02
Estel_iweron, symptomes02:02
SysaxedEstel_, even if it's busy, it wont drain 90 mA02:03
Estel_symthomes, even02:03
Estel_Sysaxed,  active cpu can drain so much02:03
Estel_if busy02:03
Estel_the thing is his powertop shows 80-92% in idle02:03
Estel_yet 90 mA power draw in idle02:03
Estel_iweron,  no batterypatch?02:03
Estel_no stupid undervolting settings?02:03
Estel_or messing with frequency governor?02:04
Estel_but you said you've reflashed...02:04
* Estel_ scratches head02:04
DocScrutinizer05iweron: go back to stock kernel02:04
SysaxedEstel_, if wlan is broken, and if he's disabling it each time after boot, maybe it's a good idea to reboot and see what happens without disabling it?02:04
iweronwhen I got a phone it was already damaged. Symptomes are: when I open connections menu my system crashed (seems to be kernel panic and the only way is reboot device removing the battery)02:05
iweronEstel_, I installed batterypatch, but it didn't help and cpu usage was always 500MHz, so I removed it02:05
DocScrutinizer05iweron: even do a full reflash to stock maemo5, do *no app installs* and then check again02:05
infoboti guess speedpatch is >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch]02:06
iweronDocScrutinizer05, but I did it already 5 times02:06
Estel_well, SpeedEvil isn't meant to help with battery usage02:06
iweronand always the same thing02:06
Estel_speedpatch i mean02:06
Estel_sorry SpeedEvil :P02:06
DocScrutinizer05then you did it wrong 5 times02:06
iweron6-8 hours and out02:06
Estel_iweron,  installed anything after reflash?02:06
Estel_reflash was full fiasco image?02:06
Estel_how do you disable wifi module?02:06
iweronnope, clear system.02:07
iweronmodprobe -v -r wl12xx02:07
DocScrutinizer05iweron: you evidently even got powerkernel installed02:07
iweronnow yes02:07
Estel_try with installing only i2ctools and after reflash (and rootsh, for example)02:07
Estel_if it still eats 90 mA idle02:07
DocScrutinizer05then it's a hw issue02:07
iweronI should try02:08
iweronbut anyway02:08
iweronif it is hw issue02:08
kerioaww, Estel_ and DocScrutinizer05 are finishing each other's phrases now :302:08
Estel_it's something fishy in hardware. If, OTOH, fresh system with only 3 things installed (rootsh, i2ctools, and works ok, then it is system02:08
iweronthe only way is to throw away my phone )02:08
infobotfrom memory, speedpatch is >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch]02:08
Estel_hehe, next step, we will start to feed each other like birds02:08
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  but he said he havent used it02:09
Estel_just tried once if it help02:09
Estel_but not after all reflashes02:09
Estel_idk wtf is with his system that it reboots when trying to search for wifi's, even after reflash02:09
Estel_syslog output needed, maybe?02:09
Estel_what is so broken in hardware, that device reboots when trying to use wifi02:10
DocScrutinizer05reflash done wrong02:10
iwerondevice doesn't reboot itselt02:10
Estel_he bought this device as one with wifi broken, and it persist after reflash'es02:10
Estel_you said it does?02:10
Estel_<iweron> when I got a phone it was already damaged. Symptomes are: when I open connections menu my system crashed (seems to be kernel panic and the only way is reboot device removing the battery)02:10
iweronit just starts to behave strangely02:11
Estel_define "systen crashes"02:11
iweronfor example02:11
DocScrutinizer05iweron: do a *full* reflash02:11
* Estel_ nods02:11
Estel_including vanilla emmc02:11
iweronnothing works in terminal, I can not open any app in menu02:11
Estel_and don't install anything other than i2ctools, and rootsh. Check power usage then02:11
iweronI understand02:11
Estel_he said he disable wifi just by unloading module02:11
Estel_more things are required to disable wifi properly02:11
Estel_maybe something repeatedly polls for absent module?02:12
Estel_before you reflash, install advanced interface switcher02:12
Estel_reboot, and use it to disable wifi02:12
Estel_then compare idle device power usage02:12
Estel_if nothing looks better, reflash and do as adviced with installing only 3 things. And by reflash, I mean vanilla emmc too02:13
iweronI have a button to disable wifi02:13
iweronin system tray or how is it called02:13
Estel_if that doesn't help, hardware of wlan is borked and i bet it have smth to do with power usage02:13
iweronGlobal version?02:14
iweronIf it wouldn't help I will remove wifi chip :D02:15
DocScrutinizer05which might make it worse, unless you terminate the dangling connections with proper resistors to correct voltage level02:17
DocScrutinizer05digital electronics hate dangling lines02:18
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DocScrutinizer05particularly cmos02:18
Estel_iweron,  yea, global02:20
iweronI donwloaded it from here
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at -- see ~flashing for how to update02:25
DocScrutinizer05~combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see  or
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0502:26
DocScrutinizer05~pr1.3.1 is <reply>see combined02:27
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay02:27
DocScrutinizer05~pr131 is <reply>see combined02:27
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0502:27
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Sysaxedoh that was quick02:31
DocScrutinizer05maybe too quick02:33
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iweronits ok02:33
DocScrutinizer05both flashing COMBINED and flashing VANILLA shall take at least 30s02:33
iweronhm, I have to install debs but02:34
iweronif I open file manager the system will crash02:34
DocScrutinizer05you have to install what?02:34
iweronokay, I will unload wifi then install them and reboot02:35
DocScrutinizer05system crash on opening FM is an indication that something is terribly wrong02:35
iweronwifi is wrong02:35
iweronactually I don't know if it will crash02:36
DocScrutinizer05no use in proceeding with *anything* before that issue got sorted02:36
iweronI will try02:36
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-10 01:34:46] <iweron> if I open file manager the system will crash02:36
Sysaxedwell, if he turns his wifi off it'll be ok02:37
iweronopened FM02:37
iweronno crash02:37
DocScrutinizer05I'm rather sure iweron did some severe mess on his system, like installing thumbified pkgs to a non-thumb kernel02:37
DocScrutinizer05in the past02:38
DocScrutinizer05which would explain everything02:38
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DocScrutinizer05how about testing WLAN now after proper reflash?02:39
DocScrutinizer05odds are the former owner messed up firmware/system and that resulted in WLAN not working anymore02:40
Estel_he mean that if he open HAM, ham will want to use wifi02:41
Estel_and system will crash due to wifi02:41
Estel_anyway +1 on testing wifi02:41
Estel_before anything else02:41
Estel_then, those 3 packages02:41
Sysaxedhow can you break your wifi using software? :O02:41
Estel_but order shouldn't matter02:41
DocScrutinizer05I've seen so many N900 sold as "defect" and when you ask if the system got reflashed then answer is "what's flashing?"02:41
Estel_i2ctools dont break thing (on its own)02:41
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  I dount it's the case here02:41
Estel_we will know in a minute or so :)02:42
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Estel_unless he fckd all former reflashes, this one won't change a thing... Of course I hope for it to be otherwise02:42
DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: that's pretty easy: install some leete WLAN drivers for example02:42
Estel_he meant hardware breaking.02:43
DocScrutinizer05or a bitched wlan-firmware.bin02:43
Estel_aware of anything like that in existence?02:43
iweronErm.. /bin/sh: /home/user/MyDocs/ Permission denied02:43
Estel_would be intresting to know02:43
iweronit is under root02:43
Estel_iwrron, rootsh02:43
iweronshould I reboot?02:43
Estel_take it out from mydoc02:43
DocScrutinizer05chmod +x ``02:43
Estel_wont help02:44
Estel_mydocs is noexec02:44
iweron[02:43] <DocScrutinizer05> chmod +x ``02:44
iweronalready done02:44
DocScrutinizer05ooh, MyDocs02:44
DocScrutinizer05is VFAT, no +x there02:44
Estel_mv /home/user/MyDocs/ /root/bq27200.sh02:44
iweronbut I executed it from MyCods before02:44
Estel_for example02:44
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Estel_it mean some shit messed with your system before02:44
Estel_mydocs $HOULD be noexec02:44
Estel_and don't change it unless you know why you may want to change it02:45
iweron /root/ permission denied02:45
Estel_sh /root/bq27200.sh02:45
Estel_are you sure you're root?02:45
Estel_$: whoami02:46
DocScrutinizer05even `mv /home/user/MyDocs/ \usr\local\sbin\`02:46
iweronit worked02:46
iweronwith sh02:46
Estel_chmod +x /root/bq27200.sh02:46
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Estel_as first chmod didnt worked02:46
Estel_due to being in vfat02:47
iweronAt first I made chmod +x in MyDocs and it didn't work )02:47
DocScrutinizer05even `mv /home/user/MyDocs/ /usr/local/sbin/`02:47
Estel_you can also move it to /usr/sbin as DocScrutinizer05 said, /root/ was just example02:47
Sysaxedhaha, chmod +x on fat? :D02:47
Estel_then you will be able to execute it as just without path02:47
iweronnext time02:47
iweronnow testing02:48
Estel_be sure to let it run for a 2 minutes or so with02:48 3002:48
Estel_even longer02:48
iweronit is already 2 mins running02:48
Estel_with screen of, nothing happening there, and GSM turned on?02:49
iwerongsm on02:50
iweronscreen off02:50
iweronI didn't change anything02:50
iweronjust installed rootsh and ic202:50
DocScrutinizer05I'd make sure trackerd and similar shit doesn't hog system02:50
DocScrutinizer05iweron: run `w`02:51
iweronSegmentation failed02:51
DocScrutinizer05it shall output 2 lines, first line with sth like >> 01:51:10 up 59 days,  1:38,  0 users,  load average: 0,16, 0,04, 0,01", watch the last 3 numbers, they shall be close to zero02:52
DocScrutinizer05segfault? in which process?02:54
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* DocScrutinizer05 wonders what's taking that long. visions of iweron doing weird things come to mind02:56
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iweronjust trying to bring the output here...03:01
DocScrutinizer05If I were interested in starting the "trolls vs experts" game for another match, I'd remark that it's not really uncommon for OC idiots to seel their N900 with whatever random "$rnd defect" tag on ebay, when they realize they cooked the SoC. The new owner can have weeks and months of fun with trying to find out about root cause of a plethora of weird arcane system failures03:01
HurrianDocScrutinizer05, there should probably be a stress test program to see whether or not the SoC still comes up with non-potato results.03:02
DocScrutinizer05this looks like system busy03:04
iweronStock system03:05
DocScrutinizer05did you do the `w` thing I told you to do?03:05
iweronI didn't change anything03:05
iweronfull reflash03:05
DocScrutinizer05it's not uncommon when trackerd hogs CPU for ~10 min after boot03:05
Estel_especially, that he just reflashed - tracker and friends may be busy03:06
DocScrutinizer05also make sure nothing is plugged in to USB03:06
DocScrutinizer05thus: `w`03:06
Estel_btw, what segfaulted and when03:06
iweronoh, nvm03:07
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-10 01:54:17] <DocScrutinizer05> segfault? in which process?03:07
iweronabout segfault03:07
iweronI installed vim03:07
iweroninstead of vi03:07
Estel_I got a bad feelings about this (tm han solo shot first)03:07
iweronit is okay03:07
Estel_first of all, his device settled down to 96 mA usage, just like before reflash03:07
Estel_not to mention that vi shouldnt segfault03:08
DocScrutinizer05not to mention that vi comes with messybox03:08
Estel_wifi is still borked?03:08
iweronsegfault was when I trying to paste output03:08
iweronI just didn't find > :)03:08
Estel_I see03:08
Estel_ah, thats normal03:08
Estel_wifi isn't alive?03:08
iweronDunno about wifi, I could test03:08
Estel_although I know results, sadly :/03:09
iweronkernel panik03:09
DocScrutinizer05~90mA anyway was normal for WLAN scanning since not associated03:09
Estel_it's not kernel panic, but yea03:09
Estel_his wlan can't scan ;)03:09
Estel_module was unloaded03:10
Estel_borked hw :(03:10
iweronit can not scan and crashes system03:10
DocScrutinizer05iweron: what makes you think there's been PANIC?03:10
Estel_wrong use of words, it's not kernel panic. His system goes unstable, when trying to use wifi hardware03:10
iweroncause device willn't start even if I will turn it off03:10
iweronor it will turn off itselft03:10
DocScrutinizer05what now?03:11
iweronuntill I will remove battery03:11
Estel_= same as before03:11
DocScrutinizer05meh, ok rhen do whatever you want. I don't bother anymore asking for details which never get delivered03:11
Estel_~96 mA idle usage without CPU getting awake, system going unstable due to power variations when trying to use wifi hardware via module...03:12
Estel_you could install syslog and check what happens03:12
Estel_when you try to use wifi03:12
Estel_I would do that for sure...03:12
Estel_but it won't change fact, that your hardware is borked :(03:12
DocScrutinizer05just pretty please never ponder to open tickets on b.m.o with reports of that quality and etail03:12
iweronbut since I do anything with wifi terminal and other apps stop working03:13
Estel_screen freeze?03:13
Estel_or rather "kinda" worka but nothing works in reality?03:13
iweronsecond variant03:14
infobotEstel_ meant: or rather "kinda" works but nothing works in reality?03:14
* Estel_ nod03:14
Estel_clear signs of crazy power fluctuation, when module tries to talk with wifi hardware03:14
* DocScrutinizer05 is amazed about Estel_'s endurance to ask for proper descriptions of what's actually happening03:14
Estel_when you unload module, device is stable, but something in wifi hw still leak power03:14
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iweronOkay, I am not able to discribe anything correctly :)03:15
Estel_i bet syslog would give us interesting output to analyze, but wouldn't help nevertheless :P03:15
DocScrutinizer05that's a suspicion of yours03:15
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  everything is suspicious when i don't have device in hands, that right, but I know exact same case03:15
Estel_although with bluetooth/FM03:15
iweronshould I use soldering-iron?03:15
DocScrutinizer05to do what?03:15
Estel_exactly :P03:16
DocScrutinizer05light a cig with it? yeah, do that!03:16
iweronTo fuck up wifi chip03:16
Estel_would be funny to know what would happen with wifi module unsoldered, if you can unsolder it properly, which is harder than you think03:16
DocScrutinizer05why not fuck up CPU?03:16
Estel_of couse DocScrutinizer05 is right about dangling connection03:16
Estel_but can't be worse than it is :P03:17
DocScrutinizer05if you say that03:17
Estel_unless you screw some other part, which is quite expected03:17
iweronJust kiddin03:17
Estel_I know.03:17
Estel_if you want to be useful for science, install syslog03:17
Estel_mess with wifi03:17
Estel_and paste output of /var/log/syslog03:17
Estel_after that03:17
iweronI have to do smth with power consumption or...03:18
DocScrutinizer05*full* output03:18
Estel_won't help your device, but may be interesting to rea03:18
Estel_yea, full one03:18
iweronor I will buy a new phone =\03:18
Estel_sell it as "99% OK" on ebay ;)03:18
Estel_then buy another N90003:18
* Estel_ can be evil, as he never buys N900's on ebay03:18
iweronThis device was bought on ebay :)03:19
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and I commented on that a few minutes ago03:19
Estel_considering ammount of people that go to sell devices after getting ensured about hardware error here or on TMO, ebay should hate us03:19
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  except for your usual bashing about overclocking, which is hardly related to this case :P03:20
iweronSo, the only probles is how to save the output of syslog03:20
Estel_it saves itself03:20
DocScrutinizer05ebay loves everybody who does business with them03:20
Estel_to /var/log/syslog03:20
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  true03:20
Estel_so ebay should love us :P03:20
Estel_btw have you seen semi-fix for gsm modem problems?03:20
DocScrutinizer05iweron: it *is* already saved03:20
DocScrutinizer05in /var/log/syslog03:20
Estel_it will be if you install syslog03:21
Estel_then reboot device03:21
Estel_then mess with wifi03:21
Estel_then reboot again and paste full content of /var/log/syslog03:21
Estel_which is a text log file03:21
DocScrutinizer05there are 2 or three *syslog* pkgs03:22
iweronsysklogd ?03:22
Estel_what are differencies?03:22
Estel_freemangordon once suggested me to install syslogd03:22
DocScrutinizer05one is for userland, other is for kernel logs03:23
Estel_no idea about other ones :/03:23
Estel_ksyslogd is for userland?03:23
Estel_as syslogd clearly gives me kernel logs03:23
DocScrutinizer05anyway one depends on the other, and it doesn't hurt to install all of them03:23
DocScrutinizer05klogd - Kernel Logging Daemon03:25
DocScrutinizer05sysklogd - System Logging Daemon03:25
iwerontrying to install sysklogd03:28
iweronit writes that I should install klogd03:28
iwerontrying to install klogd03:28
iweronit writes that I should install sysklogd first03:28
DocScrutinizer05> >The klogd daemon listens to kernel message sources and is responsible for prioritizing and processing operating system messages.  The klogd daemon can run as a client of syslogd or optionally as a standalone program <<03:28
DocScrutinizer05apt-get install sysklogd03:29
iweroncan not03:30
iweronI have no internet03:30
Estel_iweron,  insert sim or get usb networking03:31
iweronsecond variant seems good to me03:31
infoboti guess usbnetworking is
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Estel_most user-friendly way is to install qtmobilehotspot package, it also allow usb networking without madde etc03:33
Estel_of course instruction on wiki is good too, just require shitload of time to setup03:34
Estel_for the first time, at least03:34
DocScrutinizer05installing any pkg seems a pain without internet03:34
Estel_btw funny that qtmobilehotspot may help your device with broken wifi03:35
Estel_dependency hell03:35
Estel_sim->3G or gprs -> qtmobilehotspot -> usb networking03:35
Estel_would be my path of choice03:35
Estel_for fastest way of reaching internet03:35
DocScrutinizer05so installing qtmobilehotspot seems even more of a cumbersome effort that installing syslog03:36
Estel_sure :P but he may want to install something else 10 seconds after disabling usb networking :P03:36
Estel_think about it as time investment :P03:36
Estel_any method will be ok as long as he get it, anyway03:37
DocScrutinizer05GPRS sounds like a reasonable bootstrap plan03:37
Estel_I wonder about efficiency of wireless usb03:39
Estel_and n900 hostmode03:40
Estel_200 mA should be enough... could mod dongle to allow charging to, of course via real cable03:40
Estel_connecting something to N900 for hostmode via xxx meters of cables is quite troublesome on my desk03:40
iweronit seems that I have to unload wifi modules before using qt hotspot app03:41
Estel_cables keep acting like springs and throwin out of balance my other stuff on desk :P03:41
iweroncause it crashed my phone03:41
Estel_you should unload wifi module as first thing after booting, anyway, and set qtmobilehotspot to usb mode03:41
iweronshould I configure anything on my comp?03:42
Estel_if it crashes it in usb only mode, it would be interesting03:42
Estel_operating system on desktop is?03:42
Estel_just your usual way to share connection03:42
Estel_drivers are already there03:42
iweronI should run powerkernel03:43
iweronto use qt hotspot03:44
infobotfrom memory, usbnetworking is
Estel_or... install kp52, it is only 3 or 4 packages :P03:47
Estel_I admit doing it manually would be faster, after all03:47
kerioomap1 has usb networking, doesn't it03:47
Estel_(though, using sim and gprs to install qtmobilehotspot and dependencies, would be faster even more :P)03:47
Estel_yea, it's probably aboout wifi sharing03:48
DocScrutinizer05actually this page in wiki is not applicable03:49
DocScrutinizer05it doesn't cover the PC-master&N900-client case03:50
Estel_hm, does it matter which one is master? it just matter to pc being one sharing network, should be doable as slave?03:52
Estel_or not?03:52
keriowell for instance HAM will outright refuse to use the usb connection03:52
keriounless you have a dummy connection enabled03:52
Estel_I seem to recall connecting N900 via qtmobilehotspot (N900 master) and serving net from pc03:53
Estel_ham can go and f itself03:53
keriounless you redpill and enable "assume net connection"03:53
Estel_hate how this program is written03:53
kerioit's not HAM, it's maemo applications03:54
Estel_funny, I've never redpilled ham03:54
Estel_why, browser works :P03:54
Estel_i never used dummy03:54
Estel_yet it worksforme?03:54
keriodoesn't it complain, at least?03:54
Estel_or i actually did something to make it gtfo without using dummy, but replicating what it does? can't remember now03:55
Estel_maybe youmre right, I vaguely remember something03:55
Estel_it must have been just small irritating thing, as I don't remember it well...03:55
Estel_wtf is that?03:55
keriofrom the name, it sounds like some diablo BS03:56
Estel_Convenience metapackage which installs extra Control Panel applets, openssh, sshfs and sbrshd in tablet.03:56
Estel_wtf, doc?03:56
keriocalled it!03:56
Estel_fremantle from the name looks like diablo to you? :P03:57
Estel_Meant to be used with ESbox Eclipse plugin.03:57
iweron insmod /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/$KERNEL_VERSION/g_ether.ko03:57
iweronI don't have this03:57
Estel_whatever t f it is03:57
Estel_install kernel-power :P03:57
Estel_it seems that wiki page assume kp anyway03:58
Estel_install it from manual link03:58
Estel_in kp51 thread03:58
Estel_kp51 thread have kp52 links in first post03:58
Estel_I know, logical ;)03:58
kerioEstel_: it's a package that comes from diablo03:58
Estel_kerio, right03:58
Estel_I don't get how it could help in usb networking, though03:59
Estel_btw dummy network comes from diablo too03:59
Estel_btw dummy network comes from diablo too03:59
Estel_iweron, kp52 is perfectly stable03:59
keriothat's why i use libicd-network-null03:59
kerioand that diablo crap never works03:59
Estel_kerio, what it is and how to eat it?03:59
keriosame as maemo-pan and whatevs03:59
kerioEstel_: it's better than libicd-network-dummy03:59
keriobecause it's the exact same thing03:59
Estel_ok, how it knows which real network I'm using?04:00
Estel_when I connect to dummy to make maemo happy?04:00
Estel_it redirect properly no matter is is use usb, or bluetooth, or whatever?04:00
Estel_or usb->ethernet adapter?04:00
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: it doesn't matter for usb-ethernet which is master and which is slave. However on N900 you need to set up proper route etc, and on PC side you need to share your internet04:00
* Estel_ nods04:00
DocScrutinizer05the wiki page instructs to do exactly opposite way04:00
Estel_qtmobilehotspot set route automagically04:01
Estel_that is why i recommended it04:01
Estel_I see04:01
Estel_it's miracle that no one ever released automagic package for us networking, and atmobilehotspot, with usb as just addition, stepped as gui slution for thaty04:01
Estel_... which reminds me that I still have to get my dongle working, as Pali refused to include its module in KP, even despite it works nicely after getting compiled against kp headers :(04:02
iweronI found only
DocScrutinizer05it's idiotic. And even wiki had a page that described the case PC="NIC"&N900="PC" - I can't find it anymore04:03
Estel_said smth about having it compiled as external module is one thing, and including it the way autobuilder likes it in KP is other, so he doesn't have time for the latter04:03
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Estel_iweron, wait a second04:03
Estel_first post04:04
Estel_links there04:04
is_nullhi all, is it possible to have gmail contacts sync like in android on n900 ? else, are there python hooks for the contact system which i could take advantage of ?04:04
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, kp is
Estel_you dont need kernel-power-bootimg04:04
DocScrutinizer05you shouldn't install KP just to get USB-networking04:04
Estel_is_null,  whatever you mean by "like android" ?04:05
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  no module g_ether04:05
Estel_on omap04:05
DocScrutinizer05it's absolutely contraproductive to investigate about syslog and power usage04:05
Estel_well, we know that kp doesn't result in making his problems worse, so it is, at worst, not productive04:05
DocScrutinizer05g_nokia afaik04:05
Estel_but not counter productive04:05
is_nullEstel_: in my contacts list: i can see all gmail contacts. When i add a contact on the phone -> it is added in gmail. When I add a contact on gmail -> it is added on the phone. And so on04:06
Estel_would be ok, but I can't find wiki page for using g_nokia either04:06
Estel_is_null,  it is already included04:06
Estel_when i add contact using modest (mail client), it is stored in contacts04:06
is_nullEstel_: i just tried without SSU and it didn't work04:06
DocScrutinizer05KP makes things worse, since it for example doesn't reset musb_hdrc to idle after messing with hostmode. Which results in ~80mA wasted power04:07
Estel_when i write mail, i can choose one of contacts as recipent04:07
is_nulloh, so you're not using the exchange gmail server ?04:07
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  not true?04:07
is_nullbut can you call a gmail contact ?04:07
Estel_since ages?04:07
kerioDocScrutinizer05: are you sure?04:07
keriowhere's your bug report?04:07
Estel_why not filled bug.04:07
DocScrutinizer05pfff it's commonly known04:07
Estel_bullshit, I use hostmode daily04:07
Estel_my usage after disconnecting is 3-4 mA offline mode04:08
Estel_at least using04:08
DocScrutinizer05fine, then it got fixed04:08
infobotit has been said that usbmode is
Estel_but you know what?04:08
Estel_it have been fixed since...04:08
DocScrutinizer05definitely not04:08
Estel_not to mention that in his case he isn't messing with hostmode :P04:09
Estel_freemangordon,  ^04:10
Estel_just to ensure04:10
DocScrutinizer05a known workaround been to plug device to a usb host and then unplug again, since that puts usb to idle correctly04:10
Estel_<DocScrutinizer05> KP makes things worse, since it for example doesn't reset musb_hdrc to idle after messing with hostmode. Which results in ~80mA wasted power04:10
Estel_could you confirm that it wasw fixed?04:10
Estel_or connect charger04:10
Estel_but it is ancient bug, which was fixed ages ago IIRC04:10
DocScrutinizer05I can't confirm anything in that regard04:10
iweronCan not install it with dpkg -i kernel-power-flasher_2.6.28-10power51r1_armel.deb04:10
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Estel_because it is kp5204:11
infobotwell, kp is
Estel_first post04:11
Estel_links there to kp5204:11
iweronoh ok04:11
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iweronseems to be installed04:16
DocScrutinizer05is *.m.o going FUBAR again? Stuff seems slow like geotectonics04:17 doesn't count, yes?04:18
Estel_can't confirm, package interface and wiki is blazing fast here04:18
DocScrutinizer05I have a hard time believing into
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DocScrutinizer05no edits since 2010???04:20
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iweronhotspot deleted my pppoe connection04:25
iweronso I had to reboot04:25
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iweronanyway thx everybody for your support :304:34
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infobotmethinks usbnetworking is
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DocScrutinizer05~listvalues N900_USB_networking04:55
is_nullok, it seems that calling gmail contacts is fully supported in the latest ssu (i've read that for some people it stopped working after a while)04:55
infobotFactoid search of 'N900_USB_networking' by value returned no results.04:55
DocScrutinizer05~literal usbnetworking04:56
infobot"usbnetworking" is ""04:56
DocScrutinizer05~usbnetworking is also
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay04:56
DocScrutinizer05dang, like 1+h for spotting this friggin wiki page04:57
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Estel_N900_USB_Networking was linked from USB_Networking05:20
infobotrumour has it, usbnetworking is, or
Estel_first thing after table of content in USB_Networking05:21
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Estel_USB networking for N90005:21
Estel_Please visit N900 USB networking.05:21
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Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  while we are at it05:22
Estel_what was that command to tell someone something when he log in to channel, and how to do it the way it will tell him only on one channel, not everywhere, where that person joins, and infobot is present?05:23
Estel_I mean some sentence, no about factoid like in ~tell05:23
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DocScrutinizer05there is no such command05:24
iweronSo okay05:25
DocScrutinizer05there been but it got locked for normal users since they were too dull to use it05:26
iweronI will make smth with syslog05:26
iweronnext time, when I get an internet connection somehow05:26
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DocScrutinizer05iweron: see
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  statistics for packages doesnt work05:31
Estel_it is known thing?05:31
Estel_why the hell device reboots after ~30 seconds, if one modprobe -r both bq27x00_battery and rx51_battery? spank Pali05:32
Estel_looks like watchdog, but why only, if both things reporting voltage to hald-addon-bme are disabled...05:32
Estel_and why the hell does it reboot at all? *confused*05:32
Estel_kerio, are you here?05:33
Estel_why your fork of applet show 0/0 when battery is not calibrated, instead of just splitting whatever bq27 chip says, even if it's wrong?05:33
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Estel_bug, or done in purpose?05:33
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DocScrutinizer05Estel_: not really known yet05:42
DocScrutinizer05if you like you should feel encouraged to send another ticket mail to nemein support. Last one been absolutely nice05:43
DocScrutinizer05CC techstaff@m.o05:43
kerioEstel_: because hald-addon-bme doesn't present that data05:47
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DocScrutinizer05lol, bme is such a random generator:   battery.reporting.last_full = 612  (0x264)  (int)05:48
DocScrutinizer050x13 - 0x12:  6958   LMD Last Measured Discharge High - Low Byte      3.57 µVh (1)    R05:48
DocScrutinizer05                    *3.57 / 20 =  1245 mAh05:48
DocScrutinizer05actually even:05:52
DocScrutinizer05  battery.charge_level.current = 5  (0x5)  (int)05:52
DocScrutinizer05 = 8  (0x8)  (int)05:52
DocScrutinizer05whike statusbar applet clearly shows (correct) battery full state05:52
DocScrutinizer05since device is on charger05:53
DocScrutinizer05   0x0B:       100  RSOC Relative State-of-Charge                           %         R05:53
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Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  lol @ bme06:33
Estel_btw, I'll gladly send another ticket, but is it just to propagate episolography, or have chance of actually having any impact?06:34
Estel_it seems like got bind to /dev/null06:34
Estel_kerio,  damn hald-addon-bme06:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  kerio, now something really BIG as a WTF thing06:35
Estel_My 2nd N900 is charging @ 700 mA from my 1st n900 (via hostmode)06:35
Estel_WHAT THE FUCK?! I ask...06:36
robbiethe1stI don't think that's possible...06:36
Estel_2nd N900 is in backupmenu which charges via kernel-power module (modified it)06:36
Estel_so it think it is connected tp wall charger and try to suck as much power as possible06:37
Estel_now, first N900 was discharging at 1200 mA06:37
Estel_after connecting charger via y-cable, power draw drop to only 500 mA06:37
Estel_after enabling charging, it is ~006:38
Estel_I was so sellshocked, that I actually went for claw multimeter at this hour06:38
Estel_it indicated 700 mA flowing through cable between N900's without charger connected, which is in line with what first N900 reported06:38
Estel_now, how it compares to 200 mA hardware limitation?06:39
Estel_btw, everything is working fine on both N900's, copying data from partition on 1st one to 2nd one06:39
Estel_even using xchat for write it now on 1st one06:39
Estel_(checked that data transfer wasn't terminated, so usb connection seems to be happy despite device sending 700 mA power via usb)06:40
Estel_robbiethe1st,  thats why I'm surprised ;)06:40
Estel_could Pali accidentally go-around limitation that was meant to be hardware one? is it the same for every N900 with kp52 and usbmode?06:41
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Estel_or my device miracolously overcome that limitation and went into another level of being one with the force?06:41
Estel_will try same trick in reversed order, with 2nd device giving power, tomorrow, when transfer is complete06:43
Estel_still, it was like big WTF06:43
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DocScrutinizer05bq24150 is supposed to throw error at overcurrent which is 200mA iirc. It *might* continue to deliver power directly from battery without boosting up to 5V nevertheless07:03
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DocScrutinizer05Cycle by cycle current limit for I(BLIMIT) V(BUS_B) = 5.05 V, 2.5 V < V(AUXPWR) < 4.5     Vboost: 1 A07:13
DocScrutinizer05means: bq24150 can drive up to 1A through the boost choke while energizing the choke. Obviously as soon as the switch to GND opens and the diode/switch from choke to Vbus opens, same 1A max will flow from Bat+ through choke and diode/switch to Vbus. Usually this current declines rapidly since Vbus=5.05V while Vbat<=4.2V07:16
DocScrutinizer05if however Vbus < Vbat, this 1A *might* flow continuously07:16
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DocScrutinizer05>>The bq24150/1 provides a built-in overload protection to prevent the device and battery from damage whe nVBUS is over loaded. Once over load condition is detected, Q1 operates in linear mode to limit the output curren twhile VPMID keeps in voltage regulation. If the overload condition lasts for more than 30 ms, the overload fault i sdetected. When an overload condition is detected, the bq24150/1 turns off the PWM converter, rese tOPA_07:41
DocScrutinizer05MODE bit to 0, sets fault status bits, and sends out fault pulse in STAT pin. The boost will not start until th ehost clears the fault register.<<07:41
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DocScrutinizer05this would mean that something in source N900 needs to restart boostmode (via i2c-command) every 30ms07:43
DocScrutinizer05IOW bq24150 in boostmode *can* deliver up to 1A or even more to Vbus, when Vbus < Vbat. But only for 30ms07:45
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  my battery at source N900 was at ~3.300 at this point07:48
Estel_(under 1200 mA load voltage dropped to 3.3V, anyway)07:49
DocScrutinizer05that makes stuff even stranger07:49
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Estel_that is why i quickly took multimeter and measured to confirm, then, connected charger, invoked boostoff and measured again, then, invoked charging07:49
Estel_as i was transferring 4GB of data and didn't wanted device to shut down due to low power07:50
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Estel_funny fact is that it haven't even become warmer than usual07:50
Estel_no idea wtf, will investigate more tomorrow07:50
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Estel_ah, btw voltage on cable was ~5V as it should be07:51
Estel_(measured before conencting charger to dongling plug of y-cable)07:51
DocScrutinizer05*some* detail can't be correct in this story07:51
Estel_frankly I wouldn't belive anyone until seeing it myself. Either voodo electric or I'll reveal some error while testing tomorrow07:52
Estel_just no idea what it could be07:52
Estel_btw I would really like someone to recreate those conditions07:52
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Estel_(2nd device on bq2415 set as "dedicated", first device in hostmode)07:53
DocScrutinizer05probing errors due to non-sinusodial waveforms?07:53
Estel_maybe, but errors both in N900 bq27x00 readout and clamp multimeter, both in line with each other?07:53
DocScrutinizer05bq27200 and Vbus current are not identical, by design07:54
Estel_mhm, but bq should be aware of power draw by vbus?07:54
DocScrutinizer05~0.7 * 5 / 3.307:54
Estel_otherwise bq would get decalibrated every time one use hostmode07:54
DocScrutinizer05^^^ this is your assumed minimal battery power drain in A, on source device07:55
Estel_it was higher, as said07:55
DocScrutinizer05needs correction by efficiency of boost-converter:  / 0.707:55
Estel_1200+ mA07:55
DocScrutinizer05~1.06 / 0.7507:56
Estel_btw, only time I seen so much DISCHARGE rate, was when I enabled everythingp including torch and gps07:56
Estel_so, considering probing errors, could it be 500mA?07:56
Estel_~0.5 * 5 / 3.307:57
Estel_~0.76 / 0.7507:57
Estel_+ 200 mA for device with screen on07:57
Estel_still no idea why it would give 500 mA like desktop usb07:58
Estel_as said will try to re-do experiment later, if someone want to try it to, be my guest. I'll have damn good reason, as on 2nd device I made backup to mydocs (due to lack of sd card in 2nd device) and then re-created partition table for 2nd device...07:59
Estel_and got surprised that i can't restore backup from mydocs :P08:00
DocScrutinizer05I'd like to reproduce this, but no lab equipment here, not even a decent DVM08:00
Estel_thankfuly those 4GB of data transfered were for ed on separate partition, so I just need to re-do home into ext3, reflash, re-apply tweaks, get into backupmenu again, don't screw backupping, and restore into ext408:01
Estel_I see08:01
Estel_well, even power draw from 1nd device measured by bq in scale of 1.2 A would be strange sight08:01
DocScrutinizer05I however could solder up some crap consisting of a LED, a cutup micro-USB cable, and several resistors as load08:02
Estel_as said, kp52 on source device and kp52 on receiving one, on the latter, bq24 module set to treat every connection as dedicated charger08:02
Estel_(= pull as much power as you can up to 950 mA)08:02
Estel_if it require work from your side, better wait for my tommorow's results08:03
Estel_maybe I won't be able to recreate phenomena08:03
Estel_or spot some stupidity08:03
Estel_if it comes to be reproducible, I'll call for testing arms whenever possible, as it would be... well. shocking ;)08:04
Estel_good, erm, night for now ;)08:04
DocScrutinizer05I first time joined here when some user reported to Openmoko/me that Freerunner got extremely hot by trying to charge a N900, some device from pre-summit08:04
DocScrutinizer05so charging with usb-hostmode doesn't shock me anymore. Strange things seem to happen08:05
DocScrutinizer05NB freerunner supposed to deliver 500mA in hostmode, and has no D+- short08:06
DocScrutinizer05 so with properly working N900 charging not going beyond 500mA on "normal2 USB host it shouldn't heat up FR08:07
DocScrutinizer05at least not to a point were tech savvy users get scared08:08
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm, are crappatches migrated to the "new" RMO?08:31
DocScrutinizer05we're sysops, not censors08:31
freemangordonand who is the censor?08:32
DocScrutinizer05hmm, council?08:32
freemangordonI need him :D:D:D08:32
DocScrutinizer05*knock knock*08:32
DocScrutinizer05nobody at home at $council08:32
freemangordonnot that this is a matter of urgency08:34
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infobotspeedpatch is probably >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch]08:35
DocScrutinizer05answered, CBA to do more about it08:37
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: the tmo admin could happily put a bright red admin message on top of those threads saying "THIS SHIT SUCKS YO"10:04
DocScrutinizer05kerio: the problem is that neither admins nor council nor any other executive are supposed to abuse their powers for personal censoring in any form10:05
kerioi'm fairly sure that the tmo admin can do whatever it wants10:06
keriothat's... what being the admin means, isn't it10:06
DocScrutinizer05council or board would remove him10:06
thedead1440it doesn't mean censoring things that even 2 people say works for them even though its being proven to be crap10:06
kerioit's not censoring, it's a warning message10:06
thedead1440then you would need a warning on many other things too10:07
thedead1440its a slippery slope once you go down that route10:07
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DocScrutinizer05there's a clear rule that "authorities" only go active on stuff that's evidently harmful to the hw or software in an irreversible way10:13
DocScrutinizer05we removed backupmenu1 based on this IIRC10:13
thedead1440indeed just like the firefox os apps compatibility layer was removed by me for the same reason10:14
thedead1440as it had "rm -rf /" in its first few lines10:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: robbiethe1st "consented" though, right?10:14
keriothedead1440: haha wat10:14
thedead1440kerio: it was supposed to be for /tmp but the OP didn't add "cd /tmp"10:14
thedead1440at least 1 person lost all his data because of it10:15
kerioeven then, you don't delete /tmp10:15
kerioalso, wouldn't rm stop working after a while? hmm10:15
thedead1440it was for some folder because he was outputting to /tmp10:15
DocScrutinizer05posting massively dangerous and rogue commands anywhere is always a sure ban10:15
thedead1440someone used on the N9 and lost full /home/user/ data10:15
DocScrutinizer05it's almost enough to quote it like thedead1440 did10:16
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DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: btw cd /tmp wouldn't change the way this command works10:17
DocScrutinizer05ooh, you noticed that10:18
thedead1440The second page has Blueslee quoting the offending lines (his data was the one lost) :D10:18
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: yup i had sketchy recollection its in the second page10:18
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DocScrutinizer05nah, it's *, not /10:21
thedead1440its cd temp then rm -rf *10:22
DocScrutinizer05actually rm -xy / doesn't work afaik, a sane rm is rejecting this particular command10:22
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thedead1440so for someone who ran it as regular user in terminal lost everything in /home/user/10:22
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thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: yup i read it has been disabled since a few releases in distros but not sure if its disabled on the N9 too10:23
DocScrutinizer05only noobs and idiots use relative pathes in sciprs10:23
kerioDocScrutinizer05: well, if cd succeeds you're supposed to be in the correct directory10:23
keriono? :O10:23
DocScrutinizer05cd tmp ???10:23
kerioi meant in general10:24
kerioand yeah, not using *one* subdir in /tmp makes you a bad person10:24
DocScrutinizer05those 2 lines are BS in so many respects, I dunno where to start10:25
DocScrutinizer05a) depends on CWD10:25
DocScrutinizer05b) uses relative path10:25
kerionot only that, but a tempdir made with mktemp10:25
DocScrutinizer05c) doesn't test for success of cd10:25
DocScrutinizer05and d) you MUST NOT rm /tmp/* since there may be files you don't own10:26
DocScrutinizer05and generally you never rm *, you select and maybe even store filenames to rm - store in case of e.g. mktmp10:27
DocScrutinizer05and then a really cool coder will clean up in a cleanup();10:28
DocScrutinizer05and add a trap cleanup EXIT;10:28
kerioDocScrutinizer05: does that get called when SIGTERM hits?10:29
DocScrutinizer05since then it doesn't matter how your script terminates, it always will clean up at end10:29
DocScrutinizer05kerio: sure10:29
kerioalso nope, that's a big fat lie10:30
keriothere's no way to trap SIGKILL10:30
kerio(or SIGSTOP, fwiw)10:30
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DocScrutinizer05~sigkill kerio10:30
DocScrutinizer05how,s sigstop mattering here??10:30
kerioit doesn't, but it's the other untrappable signal10:31
DocScrutinizer05never heard about before10:31
kerioyou can trap SIGCONT, which gets handled when the execution restarts10:31
DocScrutinizer05you also can read about siganls and about trap command in manpages10:32
keriobut #maemo is so much more convenient :310:32
DocScrutinizer05no thanks, I prefer manpages over your online lessons10:33
DocScrutinizer05the latter are too thin10:33
DocScrutinizer05and I don't like somebody calling me a liar10:34
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DocScrutinizer05just to mention it, usually when killing a process you don't use the term "process terminates" since that implies the process caused the termination of itself10:47
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DocScrutinizer05if anything, you use the term "the process GOT terminated" or rather "process got killed"10:48
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sixwheeledbeastoh dear somebody else hit with speedpatch :(11:08
sixwheeledbeasti can't believe this got in extras11:08
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DocScrutinizer05well, raise a request to remove it from extras, with *good* rationale why it's a destructive or rogue thing, and bring it up on next council meeting11:24
DocScrutinizer05hint: some property that should have been checked by QA testers and would have resulted in demoting the pkg, but actually never got checked, always helps11:25
thedead1440wasn't it voted into extras?11:25
DocScrutinizer05this isn't a vote, this is a QA certification, often done by fools11:26
thedead1440i'm not aware of the process; just read a few pages of the thread and karam keeps asking people to vote so i thought it was voted into extras11:27
DocScrutinizer05there's a pretty precise ruleset for QA, that nobody usually follows11:27
thedead1440is there like a QA committee?11:28
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DocScrutinizer05there are "supertesters" with heavy votes11:30
thedead1440the last QA meeting was 3 years ago? o.O11:32
sixwheeledbeastyep the voting was a joke for this package11:32
thedead1440let me guess; fanboys of karam voted it in?11:32
sixwheeledbeastpeople with no clue or testing knowledge voted up11:32
thedead1440democracy at its best :D11:33
sixwheeledbeasti for one looked though the sources and thought eek11:33
sixwheeledbeasthad to reflash my testing n900 postrm11:33
thedead1440when i first got my n900 i had installed these two patches too and re-flash... i hadn't read the thread just browsing via fapman and i was infected :D11:34
sixwheeledbeastyep this is why i don't like them in extras11:34
sixwheeledbeastpeople with no knowledge damaging there devices11:35
thedead1440the thing is surely there are enough fanboys of his to object to its downgrade from extras11:35
sixwheeledbeastIIRC there is no warning it sets 500-805 overclock11:35
thedead1440i've read quite a bit of the thread and he has pretty radical people standing up for him :D :D11:35
sixwheeledbeasthence voting chaos, some have never voted for anything else IIRC11:37
thedead1440maybe instead of taking it out from extras, an action that may cause these radicals to come back, maybe something could be added to its description directing people to read the thread before installing it11:37
sixwheeledbeastI doubt if it was moved back to devel anyone would notice11:38
sixwheeledbeastbut how many have been infected?11:38
thedead1440true too i just don't trust these people and especially with the council having to spar with Rob this would mean one more shitstorm thread in-waiting11:40
sixwheeledbeastalso i was trying to start the testing packages motive back up, but infra issues stopped this.11:40
sixwheeledbeast:nod: best to leave it be for the time being11:41
DocScrutinizer05((<sixwheeledbeast> had to reflash my testing n900 postrm)) already a blocker :-)11:41
sixwheeledbeasti voted down11:41
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DocScrutinizer05((<sixwheeledbeast> IIRC there is no warning it sets 500-805 overclock)) blocker for sure11:43
sixwheeledbeastone of the reason why i voted down11:43
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: good morning. Rob from HiFo reacted to my email and requested Tim / Cosimo to update the supports wall11:44
DocScrutinizer05lol, not as if this was the first request of this kind11:44
DocScrutinizer05Tim resigned11:45
thedead1440thomasjfox: Yes, I'll update the donation wall. Probably I won't have time this week, though.  <--- Cosimo dated 27/02/1311:45
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thedead1440he replied that to me 11 days ago11:45
thomasjfoxhmm. probably I'm too much of an optimist :)11:45
thomasjfoxmay be he has a bad cold and didn't get to do it yet :o)11:46
thedead1440nope you aren't; i did the same request on a TMO thread it went unanswered for >7 days before I sent an email to Cosimo. tl;dr i've chased this since >18 days and no action taken yet11:46
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thedead1440maybe you too should send an email to Cosimo11:47
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: thedead1440: anyway, I encourage you to go ahead and do something about crappatches. Council won't act on own initiative on it11:47
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sixwheeledbeastI can't see my vote ?
DocScrutinizer05post to tmo thread and list all the blockers according to QA rules, which justify taking pkg down from extras. We'll happily discuss it in council11:48
sixwheeledbeastanyway as you can see vote downs were serious issues11:49
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DocScrutinizer05please be verbose and precise in explaining each single issue11:49
DocScrutinizer05council won't probably act on testing votes results, we don't review them11:50
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: why don't you edit the roof-on-fire thread and inform people donations are not required for the time being? Its useless going to a place people don't even bother to update on donation status11:50
DocScrutinizer05if nobody stepped up in time to declare a blocker, you need to do it now11:50
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: have ypu hit F5 recently ;-P11:50
thedead1440missed the light blue part11:51
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sixwheeledbeastlooking at karma:- all votes down = trusted community members, all votes up = 3 karma11:52
thedead1440the votes show 10-5 in favour of the patch11:52
thedead1440is there a % of how many up votes required?11:53
sixwheeledbeastclear 6 more positive11:53
DocScrutinizer05afaik 3 downvotes suffice to block, or sth like that11:53
thedead1440and it was still promoted?11:54
thedead1440so the threshold must have been >3 or >5 even11:54
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thedead1440"just wanna say something i see some a fake account created and voted no probably by a hater of speedpatch"  <--- haha; "up" votes must have happened that way karam...11:56
sixwheeledbeastthis is why i start the broken package thread, we need to get rid of the crap in extras IMO11:57
sixwheeledbeastthe wiki says +10 votes11:57
thedead1440fmg's own assessment fails it only on licensing and "no missing announce features"11:58
sixwheeledbeastso there can be 9 V and 10 ^ to promote, madness11:58
thedead1440yup who ever thought it out must have been drunk11:58
sixwheeledbeastonly if there is one completed checklist in QA11:59
sixwheeledbeastthis is fmgs down one!11:59
DocScrutinizer05dafaq I can't even switch to page2 of comments :-S12:00
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: i thought too; its actually comment number not page number switching12:00
thedead1440try click 7 and it takes you to fmg's comment solely12:00
sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: garage has been like that for ages12:00
sixwheeledbeastahh comment number12:01
DocScrutinizer05not even that12:01
DocScrutinizer05editing URL to pagenumber=10 doesn't chnage anything12:01
sixwheeledbeastI haven't got a 7 only 1-6>12:02
thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: it hates you :p12:02
DocScrutinizer05there is no "7"12:03
DocScrutinizer05you're kidding me?12:03
DocScrutinizer05I can click whatever I want, nothing changes12:04
DocScrutinizer05honestly I can't see how messing with existing cgroups is a valid practice either12:05
thedead1440Doc my screen shows 7 and one comment in isolation see the link above12:05
DocScrutinizer05dunno what you do12:05
thedead1440dunno what *you* do :p :p12:06
DocScrutinizer05*I* use a sane browser12:06
DocScrutinizer05and carefully adjusted cookie policies12:06
thedead1440I use firefox; i know its a resource hog etc but its sane though12:06
DocScrutinizer05and similarly carefully ajusted reluctant java/(script) enabling12:07
sixwheeledbeast DocScrutinizer05: i use ff but with my own personal security settings12:07
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DocScrutinizer05meh, this page is a fuckedup as crappatch itself12:09
sixwheeledbeastagreed, ff in safe mode doesn't work either12:09
DocScrutinizer05"optimized for FF on M$ crap" ?12:10
DocScrutinizer05actually a lot of Nokia stuff only works with MSIE or FF in default mode12:10
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: mine is ff 19 on mint12:10
DocScrutinizer05probably some midgard template12:11
DocScrutinizer05I honestly don't care12:11
thedead1440it should be filed as a bug too?12:11
DocScrutinizer05I blamed it at, and on maemo several times12:11
DocScrutinizer05nobody ever cared12:11
thedead1440s/it/shouldn't it/12:12
infobotthedead1440 meant: shouldn't it should be filed as a bug too?12:12
sixwheeledbeastDoc you'll hate me but ff on *bunt*12:12
DocScrutinizer05I have more severe "problems" to track12:13
DocScrutinizer05actually I don't need any more comments on crappatch to know it's borked12:14
sixwheeledbeastit's not comments on the package more comments on it being in extras12:15
sixwheeledbeastbut i agree there are better things to do12:15
DocScrutinizer05we could just state "on comment 318 there been 7 blockers mentioned which the original author never targeted. Promotion to extras been by accident - reverted. sorry for the inconvenience!" ;-P12:15
sixwheeledbeastyes please, who can do this?12:16
DocScrutinizer05I *can* do remmoval from extras in 90s12:17
DocScrutinizer05but i MUSTN'T12:17
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thedead1440or Rob? (shock and horror)12:17
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sixwheeledbeastit was "lost" in migration :)12:18
thedead1440hehe imagine putting this request to HiFo and Rob would search how he could be held liable for any demotion etc12:18
thedead1440if he doesn't demote it he could still be held liable so either way he would be in a ditch :D12:18
DocScrutinizer05luckily that's a council domain issue clearly12:19
DocScrutinizer05that's why I say "write blockers up in a precise and verbose manner somewhere publicly, with rationale and all. Send a mail to council about it, pointing to that place, and rise the topic on next council meeting"12:21
DocScrutinizer05I already gave you several hints12:21
DocScrutinizer05OC by default is a BLOCKER12:21
DocScrutinizer05no optification: blocker12:22
DocScrutinizer05no proper uninstall: blocker12:22
DocScrutinizer05not delivering announced features: blocker12:22
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DocScrutinizer05and probably you could find several colateral damages that would justify removal each single one of them, like messing up of databases, power issues, whatnot else12:25
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sixwheeledbeastbut i would have to reinstall the bugger to remind me of the issues12:26
thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: just broken functionality i.e. overclocking without notice and cgroup modification without notice would be sufficient right? That way you don't need to go thru the nightmare again :D12:28
DocScrutinizer05>>The main security risks are financial damage, access to private data and harm to device components. If you find such risk in an application then you need to report it and the app can't be uploaded to Extras until a deeper analysis has been done with favourable results.<<12:28
DocScrutinizer05OC == damage to hw12:29
sixwheeledbeastmmm, trying to be as fair as possible by having the application for testing but i suppose i can go off past testing expirence from when i "voted"12:30
sixwheeledbeastdownloading the source now to remind me. mmm, there is also potential of being attacked by fanboys via pm and what not :-/12:34
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thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: you can report PMs ;)12:35
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sixwheeledbeastmmm, seems we are getting all the *patches mixed up anyhow12:41
sixwheeledbeastspeedpatch is cgroups only, batterypatch is 500-800 overclock with underclocking on locked device12:42
thedead1440so speedpatch can't be downgraded in that event?12:43
sixwheeledbeast "batterypatch" 'This is a highly configured patch that improves the Battery Life of your N900 using dbus-scripts' dbus-scripts and improves battery in same sentence, LMAO12:44
sixwheeledbeastthedead1440: possibly not12:45
sixwheeledbeastI can only see that the copyright file has only "GPL" in12:45
thedead1440either way even if one is downgraded it should be enough12:45
keriohahaha fmg's comment in speedpatch is gold12:45
keriosixwheeledbeast: i think that's a debian thing actually12:45
kerio[X] No performance problems. OK. As this SW does nothing, there should not be performance impact.12:45
thedead1440kerio: you mean the comment that it has taken them only 2-3 years to come back to stock config12:46
thedead1440oh that one12:46
keriothedead1440: ohoh, which one?12:47
thedead1440i read it previously on the thread12:47
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sixwheeledbeastwell i can't see how speedpatch uninstalls cleanly12:49
sixwheeledbeastit's makes allsorts of directories and there's only one rm line in prerm and no postrm12:50
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sixwheeledbeastwtf changelog for batterypatch "fixed heat problem"12:52
thedead1440kerio: found it :D
sixwheeledbeastcaution if you use this patch you may get your fingers burnt :-/13:02
thedead1440you should read post 3065 too; karam explains the "development" time-frame13:03
DocScrutinizer05currently i haven't seen any SW that modifies /syspart13:04
DocScrutinizer05and if any future SWs13:04
DocScrutinizer05well thaey will have to check for speedpatch existen in postinst13:04
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thedead1440the thread is full-on entertainment13:06
sixwheeledbeastplus like the theme-customizer issue, it has it's own stock version to restore to, not good coding IMO.13:07
sixwheeledbeastthats /syspart BTW13:08
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i reckon that any violation of the debian packaging policy should also be a blocker, unless the dev has very good reasons13:09
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ShadowJKis the debian packaging policy duplicated in documentation?13:11
DocScrutinizer05kerio: quite probably13:15
keriowell then blast that piece of crap off rmo13:16
DocScrutinizer05where is the rationale posted that I'll point those to, who ask me why it got removed?13:17
kerioa package modifying another package's files without going through dpkg bureaucracy is a critical bug in debian13:18
DocScrutinizer05this is no beauty contest13:18
DocScrutinizer05document it, send a mail to council13:18
DocScrutinizer05we'll evaluate what you wrote ponder what to do. We will do NUTTIN otherwise13:19
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DocScrutinizer05honestly, please read backscroll, I explained all that before13:20
thedead1440"currently i'm trying to find a way to inject a script inside /usr/share/application/hildon/*.desktop after Exec to put every application launched in User cgroup" <-- imagine the shit if he had managed to do this :D13:21
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sixwheeledbeastso can it be removed from extras and/or devel or what? both packages batterypatch and speedpatch, one is extras one is only devel.13:23
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sixwheeledbeastif the correct info why is provided obv.13:23
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DocScrutinizer05I won't explain it a third time13:25
DocScrutinizer05pkgs that have passed QA by fraud or ignorance of testers can get removed from extras13:25
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sixwheeledbeastthank you13:26
DocScrutinizer05any blocker grade bug or flaw will do13:26
DocScrutinizer05though it would be better if it's a *severe* blocker13:26
DocScrutinizer05of the class I quoted above: security issues13:27
DocScrutinizer05OC without notice to users and by default will qualify for such blocker. Messing with /syspart so other software doesn't possibly find what it expects on a stock maemo qualifies as well13:28
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thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: can you send me the URL of the infrastructure monitoring tool again? I lost it.13:35
thomasjfoxshould I add it to the wiki? It's still listed in the "to do" section13:37
DocScrutinizer05no thanks, we'll take care13:39
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: what you could do is: prepare a list of all related URLs/services/webpages for a pkg you've built, and tell us for each if it looks like expected13:45
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DocScrutinizer05starting at web-uploader frontend, to builder logs, to package download statistics13:45
thomasjfoxwell, f.e. I didn't get a build log via email yet13:46
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's since we can't send any mail without proper domain Ns MX13:46
thomasjfoxthere was a "" interface, but I didn't manage to find it at the new IP (.20)13:46
DocScrutinizer05well,* is maemo.orf/*13:48
DocScrutinizer05what do you mean by "couldn't find it"?13:48
thomasjfoxwell, I wanted to look at the build logs of the latest rockbox build13:49
DocScrutinizer05obviously you need etc7hosts hack to get proper URL in HTTP request from your browser13:49
thomasjfoxI'll give it a try13:49
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thomasjfoxthat looks much better with the /etc/hosts hack13:52
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: the "Relases" section of the build package doesn't seem to get updated:
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thomasjfoxIt lists the release from 2011 as the latest one, the one successfully built yesterday is not listed13:57
DocScrutinizer05could you sum it all up and send to techstaff@m.o?13:58
DocScrutinizer05or post to "discussion" on the wiki?13:59
thomasjfoxdo you see it also (I just put "" in my hosts file)?13:59
DocScrutinizer05I don't patch my hosts since it would cut me from real m.o14:00
DocScrutinizer05I got a VM for trsts but it's a pita14:00
DocScrutinizer05that's why I ask for URLs to check in that VM14:01
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: we're going to reboot blade-a for switching kernel. So a short downtime is expected14:05
thomasjfoxthanks for the info, I was just starting another upload14:06
thomasjfoxthe i386 sometimes fails for an unknown reason that is beyond me (weird scratchbox error message)14:06
thomasjfoxi386 build14:06
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thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: builder seems broken since the reboot. Some NFS mount missing?14:30
DocScrutinizer05why do you think it's broken?14:31
thomasjfoxhttps:// even sent me the output via email :)14:31
thomasjfoxdo you want to see the message (including all headers)? I could forward it14:34
thomasjfoxseems to be sent from garage.maemo.org14:34
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-10 13:32:23] <jacekowski> btw. restarting when build is in progress is a bad idea14:35
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-10 13:33:31] <warfare> there was nothing running on builder.14:35
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-10 13:34:24] <jacekowski> build failed on input/output error14:35
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: I don't get it14:36
DocScrutinizer05what got niels to do with it?14:36
thomasjfox"" was the sender of the "build failed" email14:36
thomasjfoxI'll just forward it to you14:36
DocScrutinizer05we fixed mail14:37
DocScrutinizer05I honestly doubt Niels has looked into *new*14:37
thomasjfoxI'll try another build14:38
DocScrutinizer05It doesn't really help for our job14:39
thomasjfoxalright, I stop it. Let me know when I should give it another test run14:41
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DocScrutinizer05I *think* the package got built meanwhile and probably you should have received a second mail about that fact?14:52
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: ^^^14:52
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DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: could you prepare a list of all related URLs/services/webpages for a pkg you've built, and tell us for each if it looks like expected?15:14
DocScrutinizer05starting at web-uploader frontend, to builder logs, to package download statistics15:15
thomasjfoxI'm probably the wrong guy for this since I rarely use the websites (upload via scp f.e.)15:15
DocScrutinizer05scp is an URL too15:16
DocScrutinizer05we need to create a comprehensive list of services to checkmark if they're working as expected15:17
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DocScrutinizer05I have absolutely *no* idea about all that stuff15:18
thomasjfoxhmm, I don't have that much of a clue either15:19
DocScrutinizer05anyway for all you used we could enter a record to that list, and we'd not need to check it ourselves anymore15:19
thomasjfoxshould I put it on the wiki?15:19
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DocScrutinizer05to discussion please15:20
thomasjfoxafter lunch :)15:20
DocScrutinizer05np, ta15:20
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sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: kerio: thedead1440:
sixwheeledbeast~council e-mail?15:22
sixwheeledbeasti thought as mucho15:22
thedead1440nice write-up :D15:22
keriosixwheeledbeast: hm, are you sure that "GPL" isn't debian for "this package follows gpl 2 or later and the license can be found somewhere in /usr/share/doc"?15:23
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sixwheeledbeast kerio i read the debian rules and maemo rules on the wiki page15:23
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keriosixwheeledbeast: i'm right actually15:23
keriohm, no i'm not?15:24
kerioUse of a standard short name does not override the Debian Policy requirement to include the full license text in debian/copyright15:24
keriowtf, there's a format specification for licensing of different files in debian/copyright, it can't also be the place to put the license's text15:24
sixwheeledbeastmaemo has to follow debian policy15:24
sixwheeledbeastand the debian policy says every package must have the full license no symlink or tar15:25
kerioah indeed15:25
sixwheeledbeasti did my research :)15:25
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: brilliant. Please send a reminder mail to council@m.o and rise the topic on next counil meeting (Friday 1800UTC #maemo-meeting), I think we can act based on that15:28
sixwheeledbeastkk, will do my best to be at #m-m15:29
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: can't you add it in /topic of #m-m too discuss this post?15:29
DocScrutinizer05add to topic???15:29
sixwheeledbeastIf not thedead1440 would you mind in my absence?15:30
thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: no probs i'll be there15:30
DocScrutinizer05don't you think /topic is a bit... restricted in length to add all meeting minutes?15:30
thedead1440true; i thought of it as reminder of agenda15:30
DocScrutinizer05that's what the mail to council@m.o is for15:31
DocScrutinizer05we can't add the full agenda to topic, and we don't need a reminder that there is (or isn't) any agenda at all15:32
sixwheeledbeastlunch and then I'll e-mail cc...15:32
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DocScrutinizer05  .oO(??)15:39
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thedead1440what is he trying to imply :/15:40
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sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: your nose fell off?15:43
* DocScrutinizer05 touches nose, notices with relief it's still where it belongs15:44
is_nullhi all, is it possible to get the screen package via apt ?15:44
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DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: N*F*C but deleting a staement from techstaff is another insult in my book15:45
sixwheeledbeastis_null: screen package?15:45
is_nullthe GNU/screen one15:45
is_nullSCREEN(1): screen - screen manager with VT100/ANSI terminal emulation15:45
is_nullor maybe equivalent ?15:45
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: ignore him; he's a guest of few weeks only :D15:46
DocScrutinizer05I'm actually temped to rollback/undo and then lock the wikipage15:46
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: you're sure about that?15:46
thedead1440elections will have to happen, no?15:47
DocScrutinizer05so what? do you think significantly >7 will run for HoFo even?15:47
thedead1440hmm true that's a blocker15:48
thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: why don't you run for next HiFo BoD?15:49
sixwheeledbeasterr...i don't have time for RL work politics never mind HiFo politics15:50
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: it's not that bad, according to woody15:52
DocScrutinizer05council is much worse15:52
thedead1440yeah and its politics only when politicians make it in15:52
sixwheeledbeasthe's a lawyer no?15:53
thedead1440yeah but he's quite happy to play politics15:53
thedead1440a BoD of Doc, qwazix + woody and a few more would be pretty little politics and work done infact15:53
DocScrutinizer05I'd say it's a meeting every 3 months (maybe every 4 weeks even), ready a few mails per day, and occasional nod-off of stuff15:53
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infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: I'd say it's a meeting every 3 months (maybe every 4 weeks even), reading a few mails per day, and occasional nod-off of stuff15:54
sixwheeledbeastI am away from a computer most of day so unlikely to get much done.15:54
DocScrutinizer05ask woody15:55
DocScrutinizer05if we can't form a proper HiFo board on next elections, we're doomed15:55
keriois_null: it's in the fremantle/tools repo iirc15:56
keriothere's also tmux in extras-devel15:56
keriowhich is BETTER >:C15:56
is_nullcool, thanks15:56
is_nullyeah maybe another time we can war on this xD15:56
DocScrutinizer05tmux is a biatch and kills your battery15:57
DocScrutinizer05which kinda anihilates the purpose tmux been written for, no?15:58
DocScrutinizer05maybe they had PC in mind when they specified that insane protocol that sends keep-alive pkt every 10some seconds15:59
DocScrutinizer05honestly before I use tmux, I rather use VNC16:00
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sixwheeledbeastcc you have mail... :)16:01
kerioDocScrutinizer05: hm, i think you're mistaken16:02
keriomosh is the remote thing16:02
keriotmux is strictly local16:03
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DocScrutinizer05sorry, indeed mixed it up16:04
DocScrutinizer05my bad, scrub my rant16:05
is_nullok i will get tmux16:05
DocScrutinizer05or rather, mv to mosh16:05
DocScrutinizer05rrrrrright, MObileSHell16:06
DocScrutinizer05I already had a strange feeling when I mentioned the envisioned usecase16:06
DocScrutinizer05since tmux gives no hint why it would be a tool for mobile16:07
keriowell, in some sense it is16:09
kerioit's really useful if you have flaky, intermittent connections16:09
keriowhich mobile connections tend to be, for obvious reasons16:09
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sixwheeledbeastah a response from karam16:51
thedead1440please fix the package for him :D16:52
sixwheeledbeast"help fixing and modifying what's needed be modified or fixed"16:52
thedead1440who's going to tell him fixing his package == removing it16:52
sixwheeledbeastnot it :)16:53
thedead1440coming to think of it; if someone had done such a proper response in the first place he might not have been able to propagate it as much16:54
sixwheeledbeastwhy, thank you16:54
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sixwheeledbeastif he can't maintain it anymore, then it's unlikely to be repaired by anyone.16:58
sixwheeledbeastnot like it can be "repaired"16:58
sixwheeledbeasthmm, i feel a *patch war brewing on TMO17:04
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* kerio submits a SpeedKludge package that does nothing at all17:05
keriothen i'll put some fake benchmarks on TMO17:05
thedead1440but your answers are detailed; anyone wanting to fight will have to give a proper rebuttal which none of the fanboys can do17:05
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sixwheeledbeastlike the previous 84 pages of the thread17:06
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kerioi don't get how you can be a fanboy of some tweaked settings17:06
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thedead1440kerio: its the us $users against them $established_devs17:06
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is_nullis there any neogeo or mame package in any repo ? can't find them17:17
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sixwheeledbeastmame is in devel never tested it tho17:19
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sixwheeledbeastis_null: ^^^17:19
is_nullah ok thanks will enable devel then17:21
is_nullyep, thanks, had extras only17:24
DocScrutinizer05extras-devel meant to not get permanently enabled17:25
DocScrutinizer05it's no "update repo"17:25
kerioNachoPoncho: you're so nice ^____^17:26
DocScrutinizer05kerio: ???????????17:26
kerioDocScrutinizer05: -ssu17:26
DocScrutinizer05kerio: ??????????????????????17:26
keriowhat are you so weirded out by?17:27
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: he answers like Rob :-o17:27
keriodamn, mame in the repos is 0.138?17:28
keriothe current stable is 0.14817:28
DocScrutinizer05NachoPoncho: nah, kerio17:29
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thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: there should be factoid for "rob's answer" :D17:32
DocScrutinizer05well, the existing factoid seems close enough (SIC!)17:32
thedead1440what is it?17:33
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thedead1440haha got it :D17:34
is_nullyep i imagined so, thanks17:36
is_nullis there anyway to get the unzip command ?17:37
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is_nullok got it with busybox-power17:45
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* kerio looks at doc, giggling17:52
* freemangordon likes the fact he is not a politician :P17:56
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NachoPonchoSo, are there a few missing dependencies in the repos.. or am I completely retarded. :(17:57
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I just can't imagine if you weren't in the council. What your reply to jim's post would've been :P17:57
NachoPonchoIt seems like the general consensus is that the repositories are now functional, and I must be experiencing pebkac?17:59
freemangordonhashsum erros fixed?17:59
NachoPonchoI've just had unmet dependencies for ncurses, wireless tools, and a few other random packages18:00
freemangordonNachoPoncho: hmm, could be you are missing some repos18:00
NachoPonchoI have: Maemo Community, Extras, Testing, and Devel enabled.18:01
NachoPonchoI use fapman.18:01
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default.18:01
freemangordonNachoPoncho: what about nokia repos?18:01
NachoPonchoI didn't do the system upgrade from fapman :)18:02
NachoPonchoOne moment, let me check my sources.18:02
freemangordonNachoPoncho: do you have Nokia repos enabled?18:02
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sixwheeledbeast> ~fapman has changed?18:12
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thedead1440yeah Estel changed it18:12
sixwheeledbeastI am having trouble w/ fennec from thumb repo, XPCOMGlueLoad error, any ideas on how to fix?18:17
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: hmm, strange18:18
freemangordonnever seen that18:18
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: did you try to remove cache?18:18
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sixwheeledbeastcache of? this is a fresh device with cssu thumb and all cssu devel updates18:19
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: do you have maliit installed by chance?18:20
sixwheeledbeastfreemangordon:  nope fresh device only fennec, new "ade" theme-customizer and swappolube18:21
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: "cache" is /home/user/.mozilla/fennec18:22
sixwheeledbeastfreemangordon: delete it?18:22
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: do you have qtm1.2 installed?18:22
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: yes, delete is, but first ^^^18:22
freemangordon*delete it18:22
sixwheeledbeastfreemangordon: qtm 1.3-2+0m518:24
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freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: NFC what ^^ is, however, you need libqtm-1218:26
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: ""18:27
freemangordontoldya, you need libqtm-1218:27
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sixwheeledbeastfreemangordan: shouldn't this have been pulled as dependency?18:29
freemangordonwell... :)18:29
freemangordonIt should have been18:30
sixwheeledbeastworks now, ta18:30
freemangordonIf me was not lasy ;)18:30
sixwheeledbeastfreemangordon: I am surpised only I have had issue18:31
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: well, libqtm-12 is needed by lots of apps, chances it is already installed are bgi18:31
sixwheeledbeastnot on a fresh install :P18:32
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freemangordonsure :)18:32
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Estel_frankly, I belive that no matter who would end up in hifo - be it freemangordon, DocScrutinizer05, thedead1440 and sixwheeledbeast - it will end up in being politics anyway, due to idiotic statute18:44
Estel_BTW if hifo won't get merged into Council's respinsibilities, I would like to see most vocal HiFo haters in HiFo, showing them how it should be done18:45
freemangordonEstel_: you mean youself?18:46
Estel_not that I like HiFo at current state, mind you ;)18:46
thedead1440freemangordon: lol18:46
Estel_hm, I'm not vocal about it at all18:46
Estel_I have no opinion about hifo-council war18:46
Estel_I see council doing much of the work and hifo messing with legals.18:46
freemangordonEstel_: you are vocal about HiFo in principle ;)18:46
Estel_I'm not sure if current council members would be better at messing with legals due to wrong statute18:47
Estel_erm, I'm vocal about hifo? when?18:47
Estel_hifo = rob now, yes?18:47
thedead1440Estel_: you go on and on about statues but never have I seen you really present amendments. Even in by-laws thread only 1 of your post was related to by-laws so its a bit rich of you to keep complaining when you don't give your alternate vision18:47
Estel_before, tim was there, too? quote any of my comments about tim or rob not older than half year ago18:47
Estel_Well, I gave it already here, and IIRC even your hero DocScrutinizer05 agreed ;)18:48
freemangordonEstel_: I'm too lazy now to search, but you said something like "the whole by-laws is flawed, corrupted and whatnot"18:48
Estel_and aboiut thread - yes, I absolutely agree, I gave up on taking poart in TMO poolitics threads ages ago18:48
Estel_no, I said about warning that separating hifo and council was bad idea18:48
thedead1440Estel_: see those statements are which don't help. You keep calling people names or wanna-be politicians even when taken to a proper discussion18:48
Estel_and that Council should get hifo respinsibilities, or were going to have war no matter who sits on what chair18:49
freemangordonEstel_: I am not sure merging legal with tachnical stuff is a good idea18:49
Estel_well, as said, I'll shamelessly refrain to bitching at irc, as posting anything on approriate threads is useless due to ensorship18:49
Estel_freemangordon,  otherwise technical and legal folks will always hate each other18:50
Estel_at least IMHO18:50
Estel_with highlight on H18:50
thedead1440Estel_: another lie; nobody censors you unless you resort to personal insults but your sheer blindness for anything logical that doesn't involve kissing your arse and agreeing your previous agenda is worth pushing till date is pathetic18:51
Estel_I think it's too easy to criticise legal guys, when you're technic one - you're lowed due to keeping infra alive18:51
Estel_bullshit, thedead18:51
Estel_last time I *politely* criticised idea of having same person candidating for SEpARATE hifo and council, and idea of candidating + "don't vote for me' just for get election rolling, as parody of democracy...18:51
Estel_I got banned18:51
thedead1440proof? Still want to talk about those two stupid posts during your ban? Tell me anything else that got censored?18:51
infobotthedead1440 meant: proof? Still want to talk about those two stupid posts before your ban? Tell me anything else that got censored?18:52
Estel_so don't count on impact from me18:52
thedead1440you were using insults in your post FFS18:52
infobotEstel_ meant: so don't count on contribution from me18:52
Estel_thedead1440,  yea, and got censored due to two posts where 0 insults were present18:52
thedead1440you can criticize but not insult; i don't go on TMO and tell Rob he is a $!@%!@% but debate constructively18:52
Estel_whatever, I don't care about it anymore18:52
Estel_telling someone that candidqating just to get vote rolling and asking "don't vote for me" is a joke of democracy isn't insult in my book18:53
thedead1440if you don't care then don't slag people off unnecessarily. You keep pushing your bs agenda in every single argument consisting of TMO/HiFo18:53
Estel_thedead1440,  frankly, you seem to have very vague knowledge about events, just following "public opinion" about them18:53
thedead1440you keep bringing the topic back to your ban etc instead of  focusing on the now and here18:54
Estel_have you even seen two posts of mine that were official excuse for ban? ;)18:54
thedead1440Estel_: No! I was involved in the very thread you are speaking about18:54
Estel_and I haven't started discussions about my ban. You were interested why I don't post suggestions in approriate threads18:54
thedead1440The posts that were deleted? I saw them before deletion but not exact contents. FWIW my reply to you was deleted too18:54
Estel_no, those posts were not even deleted18:55
Estel_you don't have slightest idea of what you're talking about, honestly18:55
thedead1440yes the mod name s****** deleted those incl mine18:55
Estel_mailing list thread still have link to post that was reason for ban, and it is reachable18:55
Estel_anyway, whatever18:55
Estel_lets agree that we have different views on what censorship is, OK?18:56
Estel_I don't feel urge to be part of your politics, while I feel shameless right to criticise (politely) what I think is wrong. If it's not allowed, go and ban me *shrug*18:56
Estel_you're absolutely free to think that it is immature :)18:57
thedead1440My politics? Estel_ you are hopelessly wrong...18:57
freemangordonEstel_:please, stop that ban thingie already. esp in regard to HiFo/Council18:57
freemangordonit is just not related, IMO18:57
Estel_why so, i posted polite single liner, that i don't belive even freemangordon, thedead1440, or DocScrutinizer05 would make better hifo, due to stupid statute18:57
Estel_is it offensive?18:57
freemangordonEstel_: no18:57
freemangordonwho said it is?18:58
Estel_feel free to disagree, or even prove me wrong by candidating ands fixing things18:58
freemangordonAt least I don;t find it offensive18:58
Estel_I think it's easy to be community super-hero (rightly so! due to awesome contributions), but much harder to retain this status, when you need to mess with legal stuff18:58
Estel_Rob was community superhero too, once ;)18:59
thedead1440neither do i; i asked for you to take the initiative to propose amendments18:59
Estel_and I answered you that I won't take initiative on TMO, as in my book people responsible for wrong actions like censorship for opinions etc, were not punished, even opposite, rewarded18:59
Estel_so I refrain to express my opinion in free discusions, like on irc19:00
is_nullsometimes it's good to step back to have a better view of the picture19:00
thedead1440yeah you always hark back to your ban by keep speaking about that censorship. Like I said tell me of instances where you have been censored...19:00
Estel_I think that in current situation, anyone who get sandwitched as legal guy between technical Council and absent Nokia/Nemeinp, will get hated19:00
is_nullsometimes users and/or make mistakes, it shouldn't be a big deal19:01
is_nullusers and/or admins19:01
Estel_for me, banning due to unpopular opinion is form of censorship, even if you don't delete postsl Anyway, you don't like me reffering to it, so lets skip that topic ;)19:01
Estel_going back to hifo, I just don't see anyone being able to make it right as hifo member, given current statute, Council role, etc19:02
freemangordonEstel_: HiFo's job is not to make decisions on technical stuff if they don;t have the expertise19:02
Estel_problem is that statute give them right to19:02
freemangordonThey shuld just trust the council. period19:02
Estel_who said that, yoiu!? I agree, but it's not in statute19:02
freemangordonEstel_: you can't revoke that right, it makes no sense19:02
Estel_and hifo prime task is to care about assets re legal side of things.19:03
freemangordonEstel_: sure19:03
Estel_without knowledge about technical - where I agree with you - they make bad decisions19:03
Estel_hoever if they trust Council and make something wrong legally, due to this, they answer to the law themselves, not council19:03
freemangordonEstel_: IMO you can't put in by-laws, that technical s**t belongs to the council only19:04
Estel_we need to have same people KNOW technical side, and be responsible by the law, at the same time19:04
Estel_no, as if you're not the one answering to the law yourself, you tend to stretch legal things to practical side, ignoring the law a little19:04
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is_nullmaybe there needs to be a pirate repo ?19:05
Estel_without feeling legal responsibility on You, yet knowing technical side well, equilibrium between the two can't be maintained, IMHO19:05
freemangordonEstel_: I guess this is what Rob tries to achieve with woody and jim - having technical knowledge in HiFo19:05
Estel_and maybe it is not bad idea, although idk who jim is19:06
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: council and board relations should be strong with at least weekly updates, atm this seems not the case19:06
Estel_I just thing that at least head of admin staff - DocScrutinizer05 currently? should be member of hifo too, to feel legal responsibility on him19:06
Estel_(no matter who it will be in future)19:06
thedead1440would the problems have arosen if the BoD were present at the Council meetings? I don't think so; maybe they would be solved in the meeting itself19:06
Estel_well, I warned that meeting once a 3 months as in statuite (or smth like that) is bad19:07
Estel_at times of bylaws creation ;)19:07
thedead1440Friday's meeting had a disagreement and solved within the meeting; that's how things should be19:07
Estel_in digital world, 3 months is age19:07
freemangordonEstel_: in "normal" times that may work19:07
Estel_,maybe, but no one know when normal times end19:08
freemangordonnothing is stopping HiFo and council to have 2 ,eetings per day :)19:08
Estel_lack of responsibility of doing so is blocking it ;)19:08
thedead1440if your own individual responsibility can't bring you to attend meetings but to stand behind statues then you are not the right person to be volunteering19:09
Estel_also, there really would be better communication between legal<->tech, if head of tech would be hifo member too, one signing his name under papers and being legally rewponsible to the law, if something is fucked19:09
freemangordonEstel_: ivgalvez (no matter what your personal opinion re him is) was on maemo-meeting almost every time AFAIK19:09
Estel_freemangordon,  absolutely agreed.19:09
Estel_but he had vague understanding of law, and was rather like unofficial council member, tghan hifo one, in practice :P19:10
thedead1440freemangordon: i'll disagree; actually the past few months he was missing more than present.19:10
Estel_thats right too19:10
Estel_fmg meant first part of cadence19:10
freemangordonthedead1440: he had some real-life troubles19:10
Estel_the problem is that in deceased hifo, despite having 3 members, only rob signed papers19:11
freemangordoniirc he was in hospital for a couple of weeks, changed home, work, etc19:11
Estel_and law would be only on his ass if problems arise19:11
Estel_so he was too cautios, where other parts (tech staff) were exactly at opposite extreme19:11
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freemangordonthedead1440: sometimes shit happens, you know :)19:11
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Estel_to maintain balance, head of tech staff need o be legally responsible as foundation head (one of) too, IMO, again19:12
thedead1440freemangordon: indeed and its best to find ways to clean it up instead of crying like a broken record19:12
Estel_well, that is almost insultive, especially that I've already repeated 3 times a quite constructive proposition ;)19:12
Estel_agree or not, but don't call it crying, please.19:13
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freemangordonthedead1440: you got me wrong - I meant that I wouldn;t blame ivgalez' absence in the light of his real-life events19:13
thedead1440freemangordon: i understand; i meant that things happen even if one was wronged minorly its best to propose suggestions for way forward instead of repeating how one was wronged at every available opportunity and i'm thankful finally Estel is doing the same19:14
freemangordonthedead1440: ooh, I see, sorry to interrupt :P19:15
thedead1440Estel_: I actually think Doc has taken liability too or maybe not; i remember this being discussed19:15
Estel_if you would read my opoinions more carefully, instead of relying on "well known facts" (aka bullshit), you would notice earlier, that I proposed it ages ago :P19:15
thedead1440He is the maemo administrator so he has taken legal liability; not too sure but i'm very sure reading something about this19:16
Estel_thedead1440,  nope, no formal bounds with foundation, at least for being responsible for hifo decisions19:16
Estel_you need to be part of board for that19:16
Estel_board make decisions as one body19:16
Estel_every board members is equally responsible for decisions made by board about foundation19:17
thedead1440not compulsorily; BoD can appoint a tech person who is responsible in the event of technical side of things going wrong19:17
Estel_responsible to who? not to the law, unless statute get changed19:17
thedead1440things going wrong == legal liability19:17
Estel_he si responsible for stealing etc, but as said, IMO, to really have good balance and communication, tech head should be full privileged member of board19:18
thedead1440Doc had proposed taking legal liability for the IPHH move too when he wanted things sped up so I don't see him avoiding it19:18
Estel_thus having both impact and liability about board *every* decision19:18
Estel_I don't said he avoid it19:18
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: you want to share if you have any legal liability as maemo administrator?19:18
teotwakihi all19:19
thedead1440Also if we remember Doc was supposed to be a HiFo candidate ;)19:19
teotwakisorry to barge in, but, legal liability for what, exactly?19:19
Estel_I don't know who is candidating to hifo, but if he is, I would certainly vote for him.19:19
Estel_unless he state that becoming board member = his resigning for being head of tech staff, as it would be counter-productive to what I think about equilibrium in responsibilities19:20
thedead1440Estel_: he was the candidate and was taken off; few events leading to it but useless going back there19:20
Estel_ah, that thing19:20
Estel_know about it ;)19:20
Estel_I mean upcoming election19:20
thedead1440I don't know if he has decided on upcoming election; ask him :)19:21
Estel_why should I, I'm not interested in Maemo politics, just using my democrathic right to bitch about things being wrong, without taking part in it :P19:21
Estel_vote for, not against, stand aside - me is at 3th Option ;)19:22
thedead1440teotwaki: legal liability as BoD of HiFo19:22
infobotEstel_ meant: vote for, for against, stand aside - me is at 3th Option ;)19:22
* infobot starts crying and hides from estel_ in the darkest corner of the room. :(19:22
teotwakierhm, you suck at regex, is all, Estel_, infobot isn't useless19:22
teotwakithedead1440: yeah, but legal liability for what?19:22
Estel_for everytime teotwaki abuses chanop to kill a kitten19:23
thedead1440legal liability for anything. If you are a BoD you are legally liable for your actions.19:23
thedead1440Estel was more broadly speaking about Rob being a lawyer and worried about legal matters hence his reluctance to speed things up as required by Council19:24
thedead1440so he was saying both bodies should be merged or the tech person should be a BoD too so that he is legally responsible for his own actions19:24
teotwakiEstel_: worst part in your statement is it actually made me think how I could kill a kitten with #maemo chanop...19:24
teotwakiIn IRC terms, that's "Beginning of Day".19:26
thedead1440Board of Director19:26
teotwakiwhat does that even mean?19:26
thedead1440i thought IRC has no day no night19:26
teotwakino, IRC has UTG19:26
teotwakiUGT, sorry19:26
infobothmm... ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant.
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thedead1440ah it was that thing19:26
thedead1440teotwaki: Board of Director of Hildon Foundation19:27
teotwakiyeah, except the term "board of director" doesn't mean anything in English.19:27
teotwakiYou can't be a board of one.19:27
teotwakiYou can be the Board Director19:27
teotwakiYou can be part of the Board of Directors19:27
teotwakiYou can't be "a" Board of Director.19:27
thedead1440yes sir19:27
thedead1440my English took off for a toss ;)19:28
teotwakiso which one is it?19:28
thedead1440part of the Board19:28
teotwakiso would only one person be liable?19:28
teotwakiOr the whole Board?19:28
Estel_problem is, DocScrutinizer05 isn't part of board19:30
teotwakiknow, liability for what?19:30
Estel_and he i tech staff19:30
Estel_for every decisions of foundation19:30
Estel_to maintain equilibrium19:30
Estel_doc or any furtherr head of tech staff19:30
* thedead1440 regrets being part of the discussion; missed 1st half of manutd's game :/19:30
Estel_I *assume* that head of tech staff would have good relationship with other techs19:31
Estel_so no war between tech staff and head of tech19:31
teotwakithedead1440: it's a shit game19:31
Estel_teotwaki,  see? everyone have own priorities ;)19:31
thedead1440you mean the sport is shit or the current match is shit? the 2 goals have been brilliant though ;)19:31
Estel_s/teotwaki/thedead1440 /19:31
infobotEstel_ meant: thedead1440 ,  see? everyone have own priorities ;)19:31
teotwakithedead1440: chelsea is looking like a bunch of nancies trying to understand which goal is theirs.19:32
thedead1440Estel_: I fail to get your point.19:32
Estel_joking about regretting being part of discussion.19:32
thedead1440teotwaki: as long as they have the fat spanish waiter in-charge it won't change :D19:32
thedead1440Estel_: lol19:32
teotwakisome of them are running with their eyes squinting; they kind of remind of of GW Bush trying to constantly remember his own name.19:33
Estel_okp now going to heck wth my n900 was charging another N900 @ 500 mA, if 200 mA should be limit19:33
Estel_freemangordon,  you may get interested in this :P19:34
thedead1440i assume you are a chelsea fan teotwaki?19:34
teotwakithedead1440: nope, I hate football.19:34
Estel_later, folks.19:34
thedead1440one of those people who hates football but keeps watching the matches?19:34
thedead1440later Estel_19:34
teotwakiEstel_: hey, for once I didn't kick you out of the channel!19:34
teotwakiHip hip!19:34
teotwakithedead1440: nha, it's just that we got this massive 60" display at the office19:36
teotwakithedead1440: and frankly I wanted to see how good the image quality would be.19:36
sixwheeledbeastput something decent on then...19:37
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thedead1440stupid manutd not making the pressure count; if it goes to 2-1 its a draw19:42
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sixwheeledbeastthedead1440: you where saying :p19:58
thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: yup :(19:58
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is_nullhow many gigs to make a repository mirror ? i have a 1Gbps server but only around 80G to spare ..20:14
is_nulli feel like torturing the main repo server downloading at 32kbps20:14
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thedead1440is_null: iirc rmo itself is ~300GB20:15
keriois_null: there's mirrors, anyway20:15
keriothey're still outdated though, i think20:15
is_nullthanks, too big for me20:15
keriothedead1440: compared to the new rmo20:16
thedead1440i think yeah by 1 or 2 packages that were uploaded to test new20:16
thedead1440also rmo doesn't have latest CSSU releases iirc ;)20:17
thedead1440merlin has them and skeiron synced those from merlin20:17
is_nullis this something i should report ? Failed to fetch  Hash Sum mismatch20:18
thedead1440known issue in old; solved in new rmo20:19
is_nullwhat's the new rmo ?20:19
infobotrumour has it, rmo-new is do `echo >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root, or
is_nullah thanks !!20:20
qwazixEstel_, just read the backlog. I'm not a lawyer but I believe that you don't have to be in BoD to have legal responsibility, otherwise all corpos would have the techstaff on BoD. By being appointed techstaff you accept responsibility. If somebody will hold you accountable in case of disaster is another question.20:21
thedead1440sixwheeledbeast: draw full-time :(20:24
is_nullwhat about those ? W: GPG error: ./ Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED 1349249546 KEYEXPIRED 1349249546 KEYEXPIRED 134924954620:26
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thedead1440is_null: ignore it...20:27
is_nullnothing we can do against KEYEXPIRED and nokia not changing keys right ?20:27
kamtarhave anyone link for compiled uvc drivers module? (N810 kernel 2.6.21)20:29
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freemangordonqwazix: hi. anything new re browsers :)20:41
freemangordonqwazix: BTW (in case you've missed it) I found what is the problem with webgl20:42
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qwazixfreemangordon, I saw it. The power of 2 thingie20:42
freemangordonnow we only need a fix. And higher fps on html5 videos and we should be ready to go life :D20:43
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qwazixI didn't manage to work on it this weekend, I'll try my best to work on it during the week20:43
qwazixFortunately next weekend is long one :)20:44
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freemangordonqwazix: np, xulrunner is not ready either20:47
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XDS2010sold my n900 :(20:49
XDS2010got 17520:49
XDS2010it was in mint condition with A/V cables20:49
XDS2010the guy got his moneys worth20:49
freemangordonwell, you won't enjoy ff22 then :P20:50
XDS2010wtf is ff22 ?20:50
freemangordonfirefox 2220:50
XDS2010fuck that20:50
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XDS2010ill get that shit on my n120:51
* freemangordon goes having sex20:51
XDS2010have fun!20:51
XDS2010guys you gotta check out this concept20:53
XDS2010i thought this was fantastically done. the bike design is a little odd but the concept is just freakin fantastic20:54
teotwakiXDS2010: that looks horrendous to drive.20:55
XDS2010teotwaki:  yep!20:55
XDS2010but the HUD on the pavement idea is freakin fantastic !20:55
teotwakierhm, no it don't.20:55
XDS2010the bike design is ugly as hell20:55
XDS2010r u serious ?!20:56
teotwakiyeah, that's horrible20:56
XDS2010why !?20:56
teotwakiyou're not a biker, are you?20:56
XDS2010teotwaki: not really. my uncle is in motorcross20:56
teotwakiyeah, but that's why you think it's cool.20:56
XDS2010teotwaki:  i've ridden before20:57
XDS2010whats the big deal ?20:57
teotwakiwhen you ride a bike on the road, you have to pay attention to every little detail in the road20:57
qwazixI don't want everybody in the street knowing that I have a text from Becky!20:57
XDS2010teotwaki:  thats why the HUD is optionally turned on and off20:57
teotwakihaving lights that distract you, and prevent your eyes from picking up on the smallest detail can be lethal.20:57
XDS2010teotwaki:  omg i know !20:58
XDS2010ive wiped out before it freakin sucked20:58
XDS2010went right into a tree20:58
teotwakiSecond, anyone who designs a motorbike system with audio support ("Now playing The Pixies") doesn't ride motorbikes.20:58
XDS2010teotwaki:  well i think that part was/is for show20:58
XDS2010qwazix:  same to you ^^^^^20:59
qwazixjust joking :)20:59
XDS2010ah :)20:59
teotwakiThird, as soon as you take a bend, the rider moves around on the bike. Basically, as you're moving around all the time, your FoV is going to be limited.20:59
teotwakiI definitely don't want to have to move my head to look for vital information in a bend.20:59
sixwheeledbeastteotwaki: agreed on all things bike related21:00
XDS2010teotwaki:  i get your point. but with stuff like accelerometers i think all that stuff can be fine tuned21:00
teotwakiYeah, all that stuff isn't needed21:01
teotwakiit's gimmickery21:01
teotwakiit will make bike prices go up, for no good reason.21:01
XDS2010teotwaki:  even f16's have a HUD21:01
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XDS2010teotwaki:  have you ever flown in a f16 ?21:01
teotwakiYeah, well, ping me next time you see an F16 HUD that displays your facebook updates, right?21:02
XDS2010teotwaki:  THEY CAN DO IT!21:02
teotwakioh fuck off you idiot21:02
sixwheeledbeastXDS2010: less trees to hit in the sky!21:02
XDS2010flex 900 mhz21:02
XDS2010teotwaki:  all f16's have a txt system built into the HUD21:02
Snafu777Does anyone know how to turn off power management for the wifi nic?  I've tried iwconfig, but to no avail21:02
Snafu777Or what file the setting might be located in?  /etc/pm does not exist21:03
XDS2010sixwheeledbeast:  it was unkind :)21:03
XDS2010teotwaki:  what do you drive ?21:03
sixwheeledbeastSnafu777: power saving for wifi?21:03
Snafu777This is forcing my soft access point to drop at 5 mins exactly21:03
XDS2010< 99 kawasaki21:04
Snafu777How can I disable it?21:04
sixwheeledbeastXDS2010: it's true21:04
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Snafu777I've tried iwconfig21:04
XDS2010sixwheeledbeast:  i know im saying the time i wiped out was dumb21:04
Snafu777No luck21:04
Estel_qwazix,  rightp but real legal liability require signed papers21:04
sixwheeledbeastSnafu777: Settings > Internet Connections > foo-network > Advanced21:04
Snafu777I'm using airbase-ng though21:05
Estel_maemo head of tech staff haven't signed any papers. + I don't mean it for case of wrong doing21:05
Estel_I mean feeling responsible for all board decisions21:05
XDS2010teotwaki:  not all future motorbikes are going to be fully hydrolic / engine based.  I wish i could change your mentality here. As someone with many uncles that have driven in motorcross21:05
Estel_instead of b**** about board being cautious, when its not your neck that goverment lawyers will twist21:05
sixwheeledbeastXDS2010: I am saying you have time to glance at a HUD in the sky21:05
teotwakiXDS2010: I have a 2010 CBF 125 for commuting, an 2010 F800GS for trips and a 2012 street triple r. Also, I ordered a GT86 last week.21:06
kerioi have a bus card :321:06
XDS2010sixwheeledbeast:  i was a loadmaster i know the capabilities of a f16 quite well. You. Have. No. Time.21:06
XDS2010sixwheeledbeast:  101 ANG21:06
Estel_or, another extreme like with rob, being too cautious, due to not knhowing technical side almost at all21:06
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Snafu777Is there a way to turn off power management on the wifi nic without joining the network?21:07
Snafu777Or do u know what file that te advanced section references?21:07
sixwheeledbeastXDS2010: and your saying bikers have time?21:07
XDS2010sixwheeledbeast:  experiences ones who know what the fuck they are doing21:07
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teotwakiXDS2010: and F16 pilots are trained for ages before they get put in a dangerous situation. If you have the flu, you don't fly. If you're mentally unstable, you don't fly. If you get a call saying  your kid was hit by a drunk driver, you're going to take that bike in the worst possible conditions.21:07
XDS2010" "21:08
sixwheeledbeastteotwaki: exactly21:08
XDS2010teotwaki:  " "21:08
XDS2010Wipeouts suck21:08
XDS2010Been in them. Seen them happen. They suck21:09
teotwakiXDS2010: basically, you're a 12 year old kid who just got a boner because of what he saw on some pictures. You're the same kid who wet his pants when Steve Jobs showed you a big ole' resized iPhone and called it an iPad. You're going for hype, no more, no less.21:09
Snafu777Anybody know?  Trying to flush a serious bug out....21:09
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XDS2010But when you are on the highway and you have time to react with no other vehicles around this becomes helpful21:10
XDS2010teotwaki:  try 3121:10
teotwakiyeah, but it's a gimmick, nonetheless.21:10
teotwakiI put that shit in the same drawer as idiots who buy a hummer when they live in LA.21:10
XDS2010teotwaki:  hummers are dumb21:10
XDS2010agree with you there21:10
teotwakiIt's trying to compensate for some of your physical complexes, it's like putting a massive leovince exhaust on a 125cc bike.21:11
teotwakiYou don't look like, people just know your girlfriend laughed when you undressed.21:11
infobotteotwaki meant: You don't look cool, people just know your girlfriend laughed when you undressed.21:11
XDS2010teotwaki:  -.- my word man.  tell me what you think about google glass ? does that suck too ?21:11
freemangordonWTF is google glass?21:12
Snafu777Hah, got it.  I know u fuckers don't care about hacking with yet damn n900, but heck yeah, I got it21:12
teotwakifreemangordon: get out of your rock21:12
XDS2010freemangordon:  been under a rock ?21:12
teotwaki~google project glass21:12
Snafu777If anyone wants the trick let me know21:12
XDS2010!g google glass21:12
keriofreemangordon: glasses with voice controls and a fancy video ad that will probably not resemble reality21:12
teotwaki~search google project glass21:13
freemangordonI am too old for this shit21:13
keriowell, voice controls, a hud, a videocamera and a mic21:13
teotwakiinfobot: you useless PoS21:13
sixwheeledbeastXDS2010: helpful possibly, distracting definitely21:13
XDS2010hell im still waiting for the day when the HUD is implanted in our brain eye sockets :)21:13
freemangordonso, now google reinvents virtual reality. how sweet21:13
sixwheeledbeastSnafu777: do share21:14
teotwakiwhat's a brain eye socket?21:14
XDS2010freemangordon:  where you being serious ? you really dont know what google glass is ?21:14
Snafu777Well hang on, I turned the stupid thing off21:14
XDS2010eye sockets*21:14
Snafu777Now it's time to see if that stopped my issue21:14
freemangordonXDS2010: ever seen me joking?21:14
Snafu777I have to wait exactly 5 minutes21:14
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freemangordonthanks, will check it out21:15
XDS2010 < like gg but available NOW21:15
XDS2010ill be buying these soon21:16
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sixwheeledbeastI dont see the benifit over wristwatch type TBH21:19
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keriosixwheeledbeast: for instance, you don't have to use a wristwatch21:23
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XDS2010keri.. freemangord.. sixwheeledbea..   what i'm sad about here however is that conventional watches might take a back burner even more than they already are because of smartphones etc.  I would truly rather have a subaqua noma III on my wrist than a iphone in my pocket21:26
XDS2010people just don't realize the benefit of a great well designed automatic watch21:27
keriowhat about the penalties?21:27
keriofor instance, no NTP21:27
XDS2010and no DST too21:27
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XDS2010so who cares21:28
* XDS2010 shrugs21:28
* kerio cares about the handful-of-seconds discrepancies21:28
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* sixwheeledbeast has never seen the point of a wrist watch eithier, or worn one.21:30
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GeneralAntillessixwheeledbeast, you must not need to follow a schedule very often21:35
GeneralAntillesand obviously have never seen a Bluetooth watch.21:35
* sixwheeledbeast uses calender app for all scheduled events21:36
sixwheeledbeasthe also drives a van a lot which has the clock on the dash21:39
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teotwakisixwheeledbeast: I can see myself using Google Glass, if it weren't for all the blaring privacy issues I'm uncomfortable with.22:20
teotwakiGeneralAntilles: I know you'd be a bitch for Google Glass.22:20
GeneralAntillesIt kinda terrifies me, actually22:21
GeneralAntillesIt's too connected22:21
teotwakiI just have two problems with Google Glass.22:21
teotwaki1- Where is the fucking battery.22:22
teotwaki2- Where are the fucking antennas.22:22
teotwakiBecause, if the antennas are in the glasses' branches, that means your head becomes a frying pan for microwaves.22:22
GeneralAntillesAt least I have to shift my attention to see a watch or look at a phone22:22
GeneralAntillesThe glasses are RIGHT THERE all day22:22
GeneralAntillesI'm disconnected from life enough. :D22:22
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GeneralAntillesI can't imagine it sucks more juice than a smart watch22:23
teotwakiWell, if it's recording 1080p video22:23
teotwakiand transmitting that in real time to the interwebs22:24
sixwheeledbeastwhere is the storage, cloud?22:24
teotwakiOn Friday, the IT manager came to my office, showing his laptop streaming video that his S3 was capturing, with minimal delay22:24
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teotwakiMy answer was something along the lines of "That's nice, we did that back in 2008. On a single-core with the power of a post-epileptic-fit anaemic hamster"22:26
teotwakiI've become the cliché of a unix sysadmin, haven't I?22:26
* teotwaki yells GET OFF MY LAWN.22:26
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GeneralAntillesteotwaki, ah, didn't realize it'll do video22:33
GeneralAntillesI'm distancing myself from all of the Google shit22:34
teotwakiI'm getting one of the cheap chinese galaxy note clones tomorrow or Tuesday22:34
teotwakiCompany wants me to stress test it22:34
teotwakiI don't know what I'm scared about22:34
teotwakithat I'll love the form factor and buy a note 222:35
teotwakithat the chinese government now knows my passwords22:35
teotwakior that google knows when I sit down for a crap.22:35
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GeneralAntillesNote formfactor looks nice22:37
GeneralAntillesI suspect that's where phones are headed22:38
GeneralAntillesPart of the reason tablets are so goddamn popular is the old person factor22:38
GeneralAntillesthey can't see any of the 3.5"-4.5" screens.22:38
teotwakiWell, I used a few notes for a while22:39
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teotwakimostly without the pen, though it's a nice addition22:39
teotwakiand it makes sense22:39
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teotwakiI don't understand much of Android, so I'm not going to criticise over that22:39
teotwakibut it felt solid in hand, not toy-y or plastic-y.22:40
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teotwakiThough, the Galaxy S4 is starting to get ridiculous22:40
teotwakioctocore CPU in a phone, really?22:40
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kaawee_Hello! Does anybody use hardware AES encryption on the N900?22:41
sixwheeledbeastclarkson theory = power!!!. what happened to efficient coding?22:41
GeneralAntillesAndroid is bloated shit22:43
GeneralAntillesI can't stand using it.22:43
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infobothmm... mirror is, or - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new23:06
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Vlad_on_the_roadhi there23:37
Vlad_on_the_roaddoes anyone could help me setting up scratchbox+thumb toolchain plz ?23:38
Vlad_on_the_roadi am following wiki :
Vlad_on_the_roadbut i am facing a problem when it comes to do the first apt-get upgrade23:39
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Vlad_on_the_roadI get a load of unmet dependencies23:39
Vlad_on_the_roadlike "libosso-abook-dev: Depends: libgalago-dev but it is not installable"23:39
Vlad_on_the_roadi think it's due to the fact I couldn't install nokia binaries using the given command line "fakeroot apt-get install nokia-binaries nokia-apps"23:40
Vlad_on_the_roadto bypass this I went to the skeiron repos and installed all the debs in "Maemo_Dev_Platform_Nokia_Binaries_v2.0.tar.gz", "Maemo_Dev_Platform_rootfs_Nokia_Binaries_v2.2.tar.gz" and "Maemo_Dev_Platform_rootstrap_Nokia_Binaries_v2.2.tar.gz "23:41
Vlad_on_the_roadbut not sure it did the trick23:41
Vlad_on_the_roadany idea where it's wrong ?23:42
Vlad_on_the_roadmight be my sources.list missing a repo I guess...but i can't figure which one...23:43
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