IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2013-03-09

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DocScrutinizer05	sixwheeled\|away: be careful with glue! odds are you glue the screw in place instead of helping with getting it unscrewed	00:10
ShadowJK	That's a big risk with screws this small...	00:11
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DocScrutinizer05	Pali: assuming Nokia(core) has access to the SW-admin-GPGkey but isn't willing to hand it out to Nokia-affiliates. What file would Matti need to send to NokiaCore to have it signed there by the SW-key? Could you investigate how such a scenario could still work?	00:23
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: Release	00:23
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kerio	(but wait for Pali's or merlin1991's confirmation)	00:24
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, he only needs to sign Release file on each apt line repository	00:24
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: I thought as much, but we'd need details and in-depth investigation if we were to send such a suggestion to NokiaAffiliates	00:24
Pali	and store signature into file Release.gpg	00:24
jacekowski	what keys are we talking about here?	00:25
Pali	nokia gpg key for ssu/ovi	00:25
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: could you write up a detailed (to the commandline, with arguments and FQN-filenames) instruction how to do that?	00:25
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: could you help?	00:26
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, matti already wrote that they have infrastructure & scripts for that	00:26
Pali	and he know how to fix it	00:26
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: gpg --list-keys and then gpg --export-key key_id	00:26
Pali	jacekowski, no	00:26
DocScrutinizer05	I think Matti doesn't exactly know what key to apply where, that's why he says they have scripts that do standard stuff for them	00:27
jacekowski	Pali: ?	00:27
kerio	jacekowski: not to export the key, to sign the Release file and create a Release.gpg	00:27
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jacekowski	ahm	00:27
Pali	jacekowski: they need to change gpg key	00:27
jacekowski	they?	00:28
Pali	public part is already hardcoded in maemo	00:28
Pali	they = nokia	00:28
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: on device we have two pubkeys for SSU: one normal one which is expired, and a SW-admin key.	00:28
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DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: Nokia-affiliates has only normal expired private key to sign SSU with	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	We need to update that pubkey to a extended validity date, and for that we need signature from SW-admin private-key	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	which is owned by Nokia-Core, not affiliates	00:30
DocScrutinizer05	to install a new cert with extended validity, that package needs to get signed by a valid key which is SW-adm-key	00:31
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, from matti's mails I understand that he know how to fix this it but he wrote that that swadmin key is used somewhere in nokia and he needs permission to use it	00:31
DocScrutinizer05	exactly	00:31
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jacekowski	no	00:32
jacekowski	all you have to do is edit the expired key and then send it to key servers	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	that's why I suggest to send a detailed instruction how to go alternative path and send file to key for signature and then get signed file back. since I guess NokiaCore won't grant access/permission for SW-adm key to Matti	00:32
jacekowski	and then somehow device has to find out that key is updated	00:32
kerio	jacekowski: and then tell the n900 users to download the updated key?	00:32
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kerio	you're funny	00:33
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: somehow, yeah	00:33
kerio	the whole point is that we want to avoid that	00:33
Pali	jacekowski, chicken & egg problem	00:33
Pali	you cannot update gpg key without working ssu repo and you cannot update ssu repo without working gpg key...	00:33
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kerio	because it's basically just a matter of trying to avoid having to poison n900-fmrx-enabler in extras	00:33
Pali	jacekowski, and now gpg key is not working, so ssu repo is not working	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: kerio: please write up an alternative suggestion that does _not_ involve Matti getting possession of SW-adm privkey	00:34
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, without access to nokia server, there is no alternative solution	00:34
jacekowski	kerio: why fmrx-enabler?	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	it goes like "matti sends xy file to NokiaCore. NokiaCore signs xy file with SW-adm key and sends back to Matti. Matti does...."	00:35
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, nokia must update that invalid key (change it or exdent expiration)	00:35
Pali	we cannot do anything with expired gpg key	00:35
kerio	jacekowski: because it's from extras	00:35
kerio	and we control extras	00:35
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, matti has that gpg key	00:36
kerio	HAM will ignore updates to packages that are originally from dmnc that come from extras	00:36
Pali	so he can sign repos	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	no, you said he doesn't	00:36
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, matti needs permission from nokia to do that	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	believe me, that might mean he does NOT have access to SW-adm-prickey, and that "permission2 implies he thinks Nokia will send that privkey to him for usage	00:37
freemangordon	"I get comments from time to time expressing the mistaken notion that Hildon Foundation was founded just to save maemo.org, and it is not limited in that way."	00:37
freemangordon	WTF?	00:37
DocScrutinizer05	so the whole thing might never happen	00:38
jacekowski	so the plan would be to sign repo with sw-adm key and distribute package with updated ssu key that way?	00:38
DocScrutinizer05	unless we suggest a way how somebody else (here: NokiaCore) can use the SW-adm privkey to some file Matti sent	00:38
kerio	jacekowski: the plan would be to sign repo with sw-adm key	00:38
kerio	period	00:38
jacekowski	and then what?	00:38
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jacekowski	what if we want to change it	00:39
kerio	this is download.maemo.nokia.com	00:39
freemangordon	jacekowski: nothing, it will start to work	00:39
kerio	they won't change jack shit in it, realistically	00:39
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, look at matti email, he wrote that he has that key	00:39
freemangordon	jacekowski: RMO is a different animal	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: the idea is to distribute an updated standard key via that new repo "revision" signed by SW-adm key	00:39
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: we don;t really need that	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: No, he said "we have that key", which can mean that NokiaCore has it	00:40
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: that Matti dude already said that there's no way whatsoever to prepare a new PR	00:40
jacekowski	is extras repo enabled by default on n900 (not extras devel)	00:40
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: I doubt nokia will make an effort to make a new PR	00:40
kerio	jacekowski: it is in pr1.2 onwards	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	we don't need "a new PR"	00:41
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: nokia doesn't release updates to single packages	00:41
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: sure, but distribution of a new key means PR	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	we need a new cert delivered via SSU	00:41
jacekowski	so why don't we just distribute some core package in version 999999 using extras repo	00:41
kerio	even for maemosec-certman they made a new pr	00:41
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, I understand that matti has that key. but I sent new email so we can wait for responce	00:41
kerio	jacekowski: because HAM will ignore it	00:41
jacekowski	why?	00:41
jacekowski	we can sign extras	00:41
kerio	because of the fucking trust bullshit HAM does	00:41
freemangordon	because it is the way HAM works	00:41
Pali	I can ask him what is true (if he has key or not)	00:41
kerio	freemangordon: "fucking trust bullshit" is the correct term, please be precise	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: if you don't believe in my view on what this kind of mails means, then too bad	00:42
freemangordon	kerio: ok, ok :)	00:42
jacekowski	what trust stuff	00:42
kerio	jacekowski: HAM has something similar to apt pinning	00:42
jacekowski	it's a normal package signed with trusted key	00:42
freemangordon	jacekowski: we MIGHT be able to do that, by using fmrx-enabler	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	for me the fact that nothing happened since 6 weeks is obvious indication of what's actually going on	00:42
freemangordon	but that wont reach 100% of the devices	00:42
kerio	it's a normal package signed with a trusted key in a domain with trust level lower than nokia-system	00:42
kerio	HAM /will/ ignore that package	00:43
freemangordon	kerio: fmtx-enabler?	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	Nokia will never allow to use SWadm key as standard signing key used on buildserver	00:43
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: they don;t need it on their build server	00:43
kerio	n900-fmtx-enabler comes from extras, so we could abuse that, but it's awful	00:43
freemangordon	kerio: it is in PR too	00:43
kerio	er, fmrx-enabler	00:43
kerio	freemangordon: is it?	00:43
freemangordon	kerio: so I am not sure what will be the outcome	00:44
freemangordon	kerio: yes	00:44
kerio	urgh, the highest version is from dmnc	00:44
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kerio	so that's probably bunk	00:44
freemangordon	but I remember seeing it in HAM	00:44
freemangordon	when upgrading pr1.2 -> pr1.3	00:44
kerio	freemangordon: because it's a user package	00:44
kerio	that's irrelevant	00:44
freemangordon	kerio: so maybe it will work after all	00:44
kerio	freemangordon: HAM will only increase the trust level of a package	00:45
kerio	never decrease it	00:45
freemangordon	kerio: but right now nokia repo has 0 trust IIUC	00:45
kerio	the package is at trust level 600	00:45
freemangordon	hmm, yes	00:45
kerio	if we had a virgin n900 we could check	00:45
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DocScrutinizer05	we need a package that deploys new cert for standard key, in some pkg in SSU so it propagates to all devices. Then this new version of repo needs to get signed with SWadm key	00:45
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: why hello there	00:45
kerio	do you have a completely vanilla n900?	00:46
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: no way nokia to release a single package	00:46
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DocScrutinizer05	freemangordon: why?	00:46
jacekowski	well, thing is why do we care about ssu?	00:46
kerio	jacekowski: you know, i'm not entirely sure	00:47
jacekowski	for newly flashed devices, we can update fiasco with our keys	00:47
Pali	all: I think that we can wait until matti wrote response	00:47
freemangordon	DocScrutinizer05: remember what that nokian said - n900 is on some "aftermarket" support	00:47
Pali	with invalid gpg key we cannot do nothing	00:47
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: because no friggin luser can update/reinstall anything from Nokia repos anymore	00:47
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: fwiw users aren't supposed to	00:47
jacekowski	and all other devices have up to date stuff from nokia repos	00:47
freemangordon	jacekowski: you can't even upgrade to PR1.3 after flashing	00:47
kerio	the main issue is a user buying a new n900 or reflashing it and then not updating to 1.3.1	00:48
kerio	but then again, 1.3.1 won't help them against TURKTRUST anyway	00:48
jacekowski	we can modify PR1.2 image to have our key	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	dafaq!	00:48
kerio	dafaq, indeed	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	THAT's something Nokia will NOT do for us	00:48
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: couldn't we use the excuse of turktrust to get nokia to release a security update?	00:48
Pali	jacekowski, but this does not change gpg signature on nokia server!	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	sure	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	which is why they came to us	00:49
jacekowski	Pali: move shit to our servers	00:49
freemangordon	kerio: all of the maemo knowhow is non-existent in Nokia anymore	00:49
Pali	kerio, I think no, because support for n900 finished...	00:49
freemangordon	they just don;t know how to make a PR, I bet	00:49
kerio	massive security issue on a nokia product!	00:49
freemangordon	Pali: it is not	00:49
freemangordon	there are still devices in warranty	00:49
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Pali	tablets-dev is down	00:50
freemangordon	since forever :)	00:50
Pali	I think that nokia care can work without gpg key	00:50
Pali	they have pr 1.3.1 fiasco images	00:50
Pali	(I have it too)	00:50
freemangordon	what?	00:50
freemangordon	ooh	00:50
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jacekowski	i think, correct way to deal with it would be to modify 1.2 image and change https://downloads.m	00:51
freemangordon	hmm, that might work	00:51
kerio	jacekowski: why 1.2?	00:51
kerio	:s	00:51
jacekowski	that's the latest "official" one	00:51
freemangordon	yes, why PR1.2	00:51
freemangordon	?	00:51
DocScrutinizer05	1,2?????	00:51
freemangordon	jacekowski: no, it is PR1.3	00:51
kerio	also, again - this is not an issue for any "future" release we make	00:51
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, what about publishing pr1.3.1 fiasco image??	00:51
freemangordon	Pali: with fixed keys?	00:51
kerio	hell, we could put cssu-stable in there with fixed keys and all that jazz	00:51
Pali	with that security update?	00:51
DocScrutinizer05	nice but not exacly a root solution	00:51
kerio	the issue is existing n900s in the hand of lusers	00:52
Pali	because people cannot update to pr1.3.1	00:52
kerio	(they do exist!)	00:52
jacekowski	i think, correct way to deal with it would be to modify 1.2 image and change https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ ./ to like https://nokia.maemo.org/fremantle/ssu/apps/	00:52
jacekowski	and change nokia key to our key	00:52
Pali	and pr1.3.1 is security update	00:52
DocScrutinizer05	WTF !:"????	00:52
DocScrutinizer05	1.2 even	00:52
jacekowski	or even 1.3.1	00:52
DocScrutinizer05	we got PR1.3 fiasco	00:52
jacekowski	but then, 1.3.1 will never need SSU	00:53
DocScrutinizer05	and we got NO PR1.3.1 fiasco	00:53
Pali	I have it	00:53
jacekowski	we can make one	00:53
Pali	and it can be downloaded from nokia.com	00:53
DocScrutinizer05	thus when somebody reflashes, he can't update to PR1.3.1	00:53
jacekowski	we can make 1.3.1 fiasco	00:53
jacekowski	or 1.5 if we want to	00:53
DocScrutinizer05	so what?	00:54
Pali	I have official nokia pr 1.3.1 image!	00:54
DocScrutinizer05	we want SSU fixed	00:54
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Pali	DocScrutinizer05, wait for matti email	00:55
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DocScrutinizer05	we can create a pr1.3.1 any time, and provide it, or use the existing one (first time I hear of it) - but that's absolutely unrelated to our expired-key issue with Matti	00:55
jacekowski	if we have latest fiasco image we don't need SSU anymore	00:55
jacekowski	it's not like anything is going to be ever released through there	00:56
Pali	jacekowski, we need ssu	00:56
Pali	ssu has packages which are not in fiasco image	00:56
Pali	and some extras apps depends on them	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	what you suggested to Matti so far been "use SW-adm key instead of SSU key" which implies that SW-adm key would get installed unlocked and with password on production server to resign the repo	00:56
Pali	so you will not able to install more extras packages	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	we need to offer an alternative since that will not happen	00:57
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: no	00:57
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: all they have to do is sign one file with SW-adm key	00:57
jacekowski	Pali: what about moving that stuff into extras	00:57
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: yes, I know that	00:57
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, I think you do not understand how apt gpg working	00:57
DocScrutinizer05	but matti does NOT know it, believe me	00:58
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: ooh, i don't ??	00:58
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, what what matti wrote and we can ask him more	00:58
Pali	or write possible solutions	00:58
DocScrutinizer05	you see what matti wrote last two answers	00:58
Pali	yes I see and I think he know how to update it	00:59
DocScrutinizer05	if you don't trust in my capabilities to read and interprete such mails....	00:59
DocScrutinizer05	I tell you he doesn't	00:59
Pali	ok, I will wait for answer	00:59
jacekowski	there is another option	00:59
jacekowski	we can factorize that key	01:00
DocScrutinizer05	I can already tell you his answer: "we're still thinking. there were more important things"	01:00
Pali	jacekowski, I will look at that key	01:00
DocScrutinizer05	now, you know the answer he'll send on tuesday, what you gonna do?	01:00
jacekowski	well, do we know physical location of that key	01:01
Pali	jacekowski: 1024bit DSA	01:01
DocScrutinizer05	"we are thinking" means they don't exactly understand how to proceed	01:01
jacekowski	can we apply rubberhose cryptoanalysis?	01:01
kerio	pffft	01:02
RST38h	thermorectal cryptoanalysis you mean?	01:02
kerio	i feel that maemo could go much better if we had access to a ninja squad to storm the nokia HQ and steal the source code	01:02
DocScrutinizer05	and "we are thinking2 been exactly their last two answers	01:02
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: how good do you look in a black ninja suit?	01:03
DocScrutinizer05	watch my "avatar" on tmo. Do you think I'm one of the guys that need a black ninja siut?	01:03
DocScrutinizer05	in the "company" wwe have othwer dresscode	01:04
RST38h	leather?	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	if needed, eventually also leather (mostly jacket) - but "the men in black" term been minted for a reason	01:05
DocScrutinizer05	and plack doesn't imply ninja siut	01:06
DocScrutinizer05	black* (damn)	01:06
DocScrutinizer05	honestly, our suggestion to Matti been bogus. a proper fix needs a new cert deployed fro standard key which holds valid for another few years. Simply resigning current repo with SWadm key doesn't really fix stuff	01:08
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Pali	jacekowski, key is DES1 (1024 bit) with SHA1 self signature	01:09
DocScrutinizer05	since for next change that might be needed we again face same problem that we don't have access to SWadm private key	01:09
DocScrutinizer05	and I bet Nokia(Matti) came to us asking for that expired-key issue because they want to deploy a turksat security update	01:10
DocScrutinizer05	so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a roper fix incl ned standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not needed but that's what Nokia did so far with keys for repos, so they assume it's same deal with SWadm key as well)	01:12
DocScrutinizer05	s/rop/prop/	01:12
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a proper fix incl ned standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not nee...	01:12
DocScrutinizer05	s/ ned / new /	01:13
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a roper fix incl new standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not need...	01:13
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, here is link for PR.1.3.1 fiasco image: http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin	01:14
ShadowJK	Aarnio?	01:15
Woody14619	sigh... OptFS, filesystem corrupt. Too many errors, trialocated block could not be resolved? This sounds not good.	01:16
ShadowJK	Sounds like the time I ran fsck on optfs	01:17
Woody14619	Make a backup first. :)	01:17
Woody14619	Went to make my montly backup and it errored about 50 files for "stale NFS handle".	01:18
Woody14619	Which is why I went to fsck in the first place.	01:18
Woody14619	I'm hoping restoring Feb's backup and overlaying the one I just did on top of it will fix it.	01:19
Woody14619	Thank the gods for RobbieThe1st and backupmenu....	01:19
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sixwheeledbeast	ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05: glue didn't work either did reverse drill or making a slot in the head to use a flat screwdriver	01:32
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sixwheeledbeast	s/either/neither/	01:33
infobot	sixwheeledbeast meant: ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05: glue didn't work neither did reverse drill or making a slot in the head to use a flat screwdriver	01:33
ShadowJK	:(	01:33
sixwheeledbeast	me thinks it was buggered to start with	01:34
ShadowJK	I'd lose patience and reverse-HSS drill it	01:34
sixwheeledbeast	took the head off with a dremmel and even pliers will not budge it	01:34
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: turksat?	01:35
SpeedEvil	if it was larger, I would suggest welding	01:35
sixwheeledbeast	at least i can get in to look at the faulty ribbon now.	01:35
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* ShadowJK hasn't tried welding so far :-)		01:47
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sixwheeledbeast	welding! this isn't an old fiat! :-D	01:48
ShadowJK	(or alfa romeo, of any age)	01:50
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xes	unthreaded screw?	01:55
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ShadowJK	The original issue was that hte screw didn't budge	01:56
ShadowJK	the head snapped off	01:56
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ShadowJK	he tried to glue the head back on	01:56
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xes	a bit of epossidic glue would fix without damage the parts	01:58
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ShadowJK	epossidic?	02:02
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xes	epoxy glue (bi-component)	02:05
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DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: turktrust ;-D	02:07
DocScrutinizer05	sixwheeledbeast: one lousy screw borked is no disaster on screen	02:09
sixwheeledbeast	DocScrutinizer05: nice to here, stud is still in there so not expecting much movement with the other five screws in	02:11
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DocScrutinizer05	sixwheeledbeast: you could drill it out, fill the hole with epoxy, and drill a new hole with thread after that (or without thread, depending on type of screw)	02:16
DocScrutinizer05	or you simply ignore the "problem"	02:16
sixwheeledbeast	DocScrutinizer05: IYO is it worth it?	02:17
sixwheeledbeast	oh well, finished reading meeting logs. I will think about the screw "problem" in the morning. gn all.	02:23
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Woody14619	Yay! My N900 booted again! Backupmenu saves the day, again...	03:08
SpeedEvil	:-)	03:14
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shawnjefferson	hi	03:38
ShadowJK	hello	03:40
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DocScrutinizer05	for those who don't follow tmo without somebody pointing them to something (like I usually do): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89387	03:46
RST38h	Shuffling chairs on the Titanic?	03:49
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shawnjefferson22	I just posted a thread on tmo about this, but is soappy python module available for n900?	03:54
RST38h	...Methods of transportation include the US Postal system, transporting it by hand to an office representing the charity, or sending each bill individually with an avian organism.	04:14
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DocScrutinizer05	LOL	04:17
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ManoftheSea_	Thanks Doc. I guess I should register as part of the Community.	04:56
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Estel_	divVerent, for photos and other sensitive thing, I use truecrypt on N900	05:05
Estel_	separate partition	05:05
Estel_	+ startup script at boot time which asks for passwords and keyfiles	05:05
Estel_	then, addressbook, mail things etc were moved to truecrypt partition and symlinked	05:06
Estel_	sms database	05:06
Estel_	generally, everything worth keeping private	05:06
Estel_	now, N900 is so kind, that after boot, it wait a minute or so before polling things like addressbook (unless you open it manually)	05:06
Estel_	so you have plenty of time to fill password and keys	05:07
Estel_	if not done in those minute (or two or three, cant remember) hildon split some pop-up errors, then, everything act like on fresh device - no contacts, bo sms, no mails, no anything	05:07
Estel_	new ones are saved for runtime, but dissapear after reboot - unless I provide password for truecrypt, which of course bring back my things on place, automagically. Very conveinent	05:08
Estel_	CSSU cam, (by my suggestion, btw ;) ) use config file that allow you to provide path where photos should be saved	05:08
Estel_	so videos and photos went to truecrypt partition too	05:09
Estel_	divVerent, ^^^	05:09
Estel_	~truecrypt	05:09
infobot	it has been said that truecrypt is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81435	05:09
Estel_	IMo very conveinent way. Everything explained there, including how to make sure partition gets unmounted in cause of thievery	05:10
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Estel_	(getting rid of lockcode require at least one reboot, so automounted partition get unmounted)	05:10
Estel_	now as for regular system security, there are things fools do to have password requiment for root, but as said, no shadow, so it's worth shit	05:12
Estel_	and rootsh, while seems like broken concept, in practice just work, without unneeded complications that doesn't give any real security	05:12
Estel_	OTOH, your point about browser exploit is interesting and I don't care if N900 is unlikely the target	05:13
Estel_	if something can be made better/more secure, it's worth it	05:13
Estel_	but even in this case fool's messing with duplicating root security are futile, as no shadow (I know, there is more than that, but it pretty sums it to conclusion).	05:14
Estel_	kerio, any ideas, how one could harden it against browser exploits, leaving alone poor HAM that is so broken, that I would never regret getting rid of it completely?	05:15
Estel_	every 1 is asleep, it seems ;) have good night, folks.	05:16
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DocScrutinizer05	~rot13 Estel_	05:37
infobot	Rfgry_	05:37
DocScrutinizer05	fools argue like "if something can be made better/more secure, it's worth it" + "root security are futile, as no shadow"	05:38
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ManoftheSea	risk-analysis.	05:56
ManoftheSea	Personally, I'd prefer LUKS to Truecrypt	05:57
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ManoftheSea	It'd be more secure to launch your phone into the sun.	05:57
DocScrutinizer05	security is measured in "time needed to break in"	05:59
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DocScrutinizer05	security is measured in "time needed to break in"	06:01
DocScrutinizer05	and sufficient security is defined as "effort to break barriers is higher than value of the assets protected by those barriers"	06:02
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DocScrutinizer05	I dunno about the perceived effort needed by those who rant about useless root password, to bruteforce teh root password from the hash in /etc/password. I also have no idea about the assets those guys carry on their phone. For me a proper root password is not only reasonable to have but actually sufficient to secure my assets I have on N900	06:05
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DocScrutinizer05	hmm, should we discuss a bit about further amendments needed to either HiFo bylaws or council statutes?	07:07
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Macer	wow. my lumia 900 got up to $152 on ebay	07:39
Macer	that is far more than i expected heh	07:39
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eddyb	pleease help me nuke maemo-optify-runonce	10:33
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eddyb	every time I upgrade or install anything, aptitude tries to install that package first	10:34
eddyb	and guess what it does? instant shutdown	10:34
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eddyb	I can't remove it either, because it kills the process installing it, thus corrupting its own state	10:37
eddyb	dpkg: error processing maemo-optify-runonce (--remove):	10:37
eddyb	Package is in a very bad inconsistent state - you should reinstall it before attempting a removal.	10:41
eddyb	(sorry for the delay, it's not exactly easy to copy-remove_newline-paste on this..	10:42
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eddyb	this worked dpkg --force-remove-reinstreq -P maemo-optify-runonce	10:47
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eddyb	aand I want to install mp-fremantle-community-pr which PreDepends: maemo-optify-runonce	10:53
eddyb	and I'm also plagued by hash mismatch on the "official" repos (maemo.org I think)	10:58
thedead1440	eddyb: you can either use mirrors or the new official repos at 213.128.137.22	10:59
thedead1440	~mirrors	11:00
infobot	mirror is probably http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	11:00
eddyb	~rmo-new	11:00
infobot	hmm... rmo-new is do `echo 213.128.137.22 repository.maemo.org >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1327342#post1327342	11:00
eddyb	I like the hostname hack :D	11:01
eddyb	thedead1440: thanks, that solves the hash problem, but I still can't use cssu-testing-thumb properly because of maemo-optify-runonce :(	11:02
thedead1440	eddyb: np; why not install it now that you have removed it properly?	11:03
thedead1440	it==maemo-optify-runonce	11:03
eddyb	as I said, it instantly shuts down the system when installing	11:03
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eddyb	it kills apt-worker before it can be marked as installed	11:04
thedead1440	how the heck did you end up in trouble with it in the first place?	11:05
eddyb	mp-fremantle-community-pr pre-depends on it	11:06
thedead1440	oh	11:06
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eddyb	sweet, at least I got node.js on this :D	11:07
eddyb	weird, the maemo-optify-runonce description looks innocent	11:09
eddyb	it says it just moves files	11:10
eddyb	brb this might shutdown	11:10
thedead1440	ask kerio about it	11:11
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eddyb	I tried renaming /usr/bin/killall, that made no difference	11:19
thedead1440	why would you do that?	11:20
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eddyb	thedead1440: it was killing processes, I thought maybe it ended up killing something vital that would trigger a shutdown	11:20
eddyb	killall browserd as root triggers a shutdown IIRC	11:21
thedead1440	killall is linked to busybox	11:21
thedead1440	you don't want to be screwing busybox up	11:21
eddyb	I renamed the link	11:21
thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: hey! Is there any way to upload packages to the new "test" autobuilder? I tried GARAGE-USERNAME@213.128.137.22	11:21
DocScrutinizer05	I think you need to upload to drop	11:23
DocScrutinizer05	not to repo	11:24
thomasjfox	at least ssh complains the drop.maemo.org IP address changed - that's a good sign in this case :)	11:25
DocScrutinizer05	anyway it's not exactly recommended to use this for production yet, since we might need to do a final rsync immediately before switch-over, and that would nuke all your stuff	11:25
eddyb	so I'm looking in the preinstall for maemo-optify-runonce	11:25
thomasjfox	no worries, I just want to test if the build works at all.	11:26
eddyb	# Here we have to reboot - before starting SSU pkg upgrade HAM stops & kills most of applications, system is in non-functional state anyway. Reboot nicely - with display blanking and led fading off.	11:26
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thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: "scp: /var/www/extras-devel/incoming-builder/fremantle/: No such file or directory"	11:26
DocScrutinizer05	try garage then	11:27
eddyb	before the reboot, dokill "hildon-application-manager" "TERM"; dokill "apt-worker" "TERM"	11:27
DocScrutinizer05	I can't recall what the guys did for upload	11:27
thedead1440	eddyb: so after reboot it should continue the process maybe you just have to be patient	11:27
eddyb	nope	11:27
eddyb	it doesn't even reboot	11:28
thomasjfox	thanks anyway :)	11:28
DocScrutinizer05	garage is 26, btw	11:28
eddyb	it uses pidof and kill, but that's not the reason it shuts down	11:28
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DocScrutinizer05	((<eddyb> aand I want to install mp-fremantle-community-pr))	11:30
DocScrutinizer05	I don't think that's any recommended	11:30
thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: 26 as in .26 I guess. Just seems to hang without any transfer happening	11:30
eddyb	DocScrutinizer05: I want cssu-testing-thumb	11:30
eddyb	thedead1440: it's supposed to show me a banner saying that I need at least 150MB of free space in /home. but that's commented in the script :/	11:31
thomasjfox	alright, looks like it's not ready for prime time yet :)	11:31
DocScrutinizer05	thomasjfox: ask jacekowski or pali	11:31
* thomasjfox summons jacekowski		11:31
DocScrutinizer05	we encountered that "scp: /var/www/extras-devel/incoming-builder/fremantle/: No such file or directory" and the guys worked around it or fixed it or whatever, I didn't follow	11:32
thomasjfox	I guess drop.maemo.org is right, just the path will be different	11:32
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DocScrutinizer05	I dunno if it's a NFS mount or whatever	11:32
DocScrutinizer05	might be	11:33
thomasjfox	because if scp says "no such file or directory" for the remote host, then authentication was successful	11:33
DocScrutinizer05	lemme check	11:33
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eddyb	hahahaha	11:35
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eddyb	return `/bin/busybox stat -ft "$1" \| /bin/busybox awk '{print int($5$9/(10241024)) }'`	11:35
eddyb	but stat -ft /home displays two lines... and the free space for the second, blank line, is 0	11:35
eddyb	damn thing is broken	11:36
DocScrutinizer05	dafaq, sorry!! http://213.128.137.6/ganglia/	11:37
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eddyb	did they even test the script? it looks like this wasn't supposed to work, ever	11:37
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thedead1440	eddyb: i don't remember people on the TMO thread complaining...	11:40
eddyb	I am telling you nokia fucked up	11:40
eddyb	now, I think I can hijack stat to return the right line, all the time, without the second blank line	11:40
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amospalla	sometimes, when connecting to wlan, n900 says "could not connect, try again?" if I tell it to connect wlan another time, wlancond goes 100% cpu	11:43
amospalla	is that a known problem?	11:43
eddyb	haha plugged in USB saved me from reboot	11:44
eddyb	now I can just ignore the stupid thing	11:45
eddyb	the stat trick didn't work, though :/	11:46
DocScrutinizer05	thomasjfox: did you try first time ~45min ago to use builder?	11:47
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eddyb	I just have to wait 7 seconds and ignore the dpkg preinstall error	11:49
eddyb	thanks guys, at least my N900 is now in a more manageable state :)	11:50
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thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: yep	11:55
DocScrutinizer05	hehe, you killed blade-b	11:55
thomasjfox	:o)	11:55
thomasjfox	Funnily it didn't even upload anything	11:56
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DocScrutinizer05	what was first thing you did? could you share the cmdline in private /query ?	11:56
DocScrutinizer05	possibly with result/diagnostic-output	11:57
thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: I'll just copy my terminal output from the moment I started, it's not that much	11:58
DocScrutinizer05	sure, pastebin it and post me the URL in a /wuery	11:58
DocScrutinizer05	query even	11:58
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, no DCC	11:59
thomasjfox	crap	11:59
thomasjfox	didn't want to put it on a pastebin...	11:59
thomasjfox	I'll upload it somewhere private	12:00
DocScrutinizer05	privatepaste.com	12:00
DocScrutinizer05	or send per mail	12:00
thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: did the high load on blade-b fix "itself" automatically? Or this some kind of watchdog reset it?	12:07
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DocScrutinizer05	nah, we had to push the button	12:07
thomasjfox	I could try to repeat my steps and then we can check when/how it dies	12:09
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DocScrutinizer05	thomasjfox: we're still investigating	12:20
DocScrutinizer05	not even sure if it's been you, though "L.J.Gibbs: I don't believe in chance"	12:21
thomasjfox	like I said, I could try again	12:27
thomasjfox	then we know for sure	12:27
thomasjfox	but when you asked me if I tried it ~45min ago, my uptime showed 47min	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	well, everything up again, go ahead	12:28
thomasjfox	I just got up to try a rockbox build :)	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	as I said, try IP of new drop.m.o	12:28
thomasjfox	which is it?	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	http://wiki.maemo.org/Migrating_to_Community-driven_Infrastructure	12:29
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thomasjfox	ah, .25	12:29
thomasjfox	yes, uploading!	12:30
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MrPingu_	Hi folks!	12:35
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DocScrutinizer05	thomasjfox: builder active	12:54
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divVerent	04:14:28 Estel_ \| but even in this case fool's messing with duplicating root security are futile, as no shadow (I know, there is more than that, but it pretty sums it to conclusion).	13:07
divVerent	Estel_: actually "fixable"	13:07
divVerent	set an invalid password hash for root, and ONLY log in via ssh with key ;)	13:07
divVerent	another thing... 04:14:28 Estel_ \| but even in this case fool's messing with duplicating root security are futile, as no shadow (I know, there is more than that, but it pretty sums it to conclusion).	13:08
divVerent	sorry	13:08
divVerent	has anyone mirrored http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php?	13:08
divVerent	I would like to get the SDK VM images, as scratchbox and the SDK apparently only run on 32bit Debian-based distros, and I have a 64bit Arch	13:08
divVerent	(all I REALLY want is a foo2hp binary...)	13:10
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DocScrutinizer05	~tablets-dev	13:17
DocScrutinizer05	~mirror	13:17
infobot	[mirror] http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	13:17
DocScrutinizer05	meh	13:17
DocScrutinizer05	~skeiron	13:17
infobot	skeiron is probably the semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources: http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143	13:17
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divVerent	DocScrutinizer05: hm... none seem to have mirrored the VM images	13:30
divVerent	skeiron ends up pointing me to http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/2nd_edition/	13:32
divVerent	but the link again goes to http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php	13:32
RzR	then we should make them again adding latest scratchbox and targets	13:34
thomasjfox	DocScrutinizer05: looks like the build succeeded :) cool!	13:36
DocScrutinizer05	surprisedß	13:36
DocScrutinizer05	?	13:36
thomasjfox	yep :) in December it failed with some weird error	13:37
thomasjfox	also I didn't get any build log email	13:37
divVerent	or can anyone compile foo2hp for me? want to get my printer to work from the N900	13:37
divVerent	setting up a new VM and then all the SDK stuff would take days... too bad the Debian binaries don't work due to N900 having a too old libc	13:38
thomasjfox	I'll try a diablo build, too	13:38
DocScrutinizer05	I don't think diablo builder is even enabled	13:38
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DocScrutinizer05	dunno	13:38
divVerent	my goal would BTW not be using cups, but just the foo2hp wrapper called by a trivial "lpr.sh" script	13:38
DocScrutinizer05	for sure we haven't tested it	13:39
thomasjfox	let's see what happens	13:39
divVerent	WAIT... actually, MAYBE debian oldstable's foo2zjs works...	13:39
divVerent	it still fails to dpkg -i due to wrong libc	13:39
divVerent	but it SEEMS like the binary runs anyway	13:39
divVerent	foo2zjs depends on libc6 (>= 2.7-1); however:	13:39
divVerent	Version of libc6 on system is 2.5.1-1eglibc27+0m5.	13:40
divVerent	is there a simple way to tell dpkg to not care and assume it's configured anyway?	13:40
DocScrutinizer05	was there some --force or somesuchß	13:40
DocScrutinizer05	?	13:40
divVerent	not really... I tried --force-depends	13:42
divVerent	which SEEMS to work	13:42
divVerent	but then apt-get -f install wants to remove it	13:42
divVerent	looks like I probably will rather have to extract it to a subdir of /opt instead	13:42
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divVerent	for reference, I used foo2zjs_20070718dfsg-9_armel.deb... its output LOOKS like the right command stream, but I'll know for sure once my son is awake and I can turn on the printer	13:46
divVerent	the version from 2009 does not work, missing glibc symbol	13:46
divVerent	http://pastebin.com/RyUJR5CF - and this would be my "lpr script<"	13:47
thomasjfox	is a donation to the hildon foundation eligible for tax deduction?	13:53
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thomasjfox	hmm since the hildon foundation is a non-profit organization, donations -should- be eligble for tax deduction. I'll give it a try.	14:00
thomasjfox	only thing seems to be that some German tax offices don't accept the paypal transfer for it. Let's see if they act up next year :o)	14:04
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divVerent	yes, this foo2hp binary works	14:21
thomasjfox	now you can print the Internets!	14:21
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XATRIX	Hi guys, any idea how can i initiate skype video call from my handset ?	14:25
XATRIX	I can only start IM or voice call	14:26
XATRIX	But sometimes, after a few video calls, i can initiate it by myself	14:26
XATRIX	But i can't track it , how did i do it	14:26
DocScrutinizer05	thomasjfox: no, and actually HiFo didn't even bother to update their donations list since 6 weeks. I would think twice	14:26
thomasjfox	worst think that can happen is that they don't recognize it. Since the amount is below $100, it won't kill me.	14:28
DocScrutinizer05	worst thing that can happen is that HiFo drools over the money while techstaff pays HDD from own pocket since dealing with HiFo is simply not worth the hassle	14:29
XATRIX	Any idea about my problem?	14:30
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1326428#post1326428	14:30
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-03-09 11:36:50] <warfare> Something got stuck with the disks.	14:31
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-03-09 11:37:41] <warfare> all vms couldn't write to disk after ~9:45 or so.	14:31
thomasjfox	hmm	14:32
DocScrutinizer05	hw issue?	14:32
DocScrutinizer05	I had hoped those HDD wait til we get some companions for them before they act up	14:32
thomasjfox	what about the "donations" link here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=88222	14:32
thomasjfox	I thought it sends money to HiFo	14:33
DocScrutinizer05	it does	14:33
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thomasjfox	but you think it's a bad idea? It's too late anyway, I already donated...	14:33
thomasjfox	:)	14:33
DocScrutinizer05	http://hildonfoundation.org/supporters/	14:34
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	14:34
thomasjfox	I wrote them a message, let's see what happens	14:35
DocScrutinizer05	I'd think twice to donate to an entity that doesn't even bother to keep their donors updated about state of funding	14:35
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DocScrutinizer05	lol	14:35
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DocScrutinizer05	I'd guess it's not exactly the first message they get	14:36
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DocScrutinizer05	actually blame me for not already editing http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=88222	14:36
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thomasjfox	bank account status is listed here: http://hildonfoundation.org/board-minutes-for-meeting-on-february-17-2013/	14:40
thomasjfox	looks like the money is currently frozen at Paypal	14:40
thomasjfox	(if I understand the text correctly)	14:41
DocScrutinizer05	whatever, seems they don't get their stuff sorted. That's why I didn't even bother to ask for them paying the needed HDD	14:44
DocScrutinizer05	actually thanks to a great community with lots of support in non-monetary, and thanks to a nice guy at Nokia, we didn't see any payments except that vBulletin license from HiFo funds	14:45
jacekowski	to be honest, i think vBulletin is a mistake	14:46
DocScrutinizer05	I can't honestly suggest handing more money to HiFo to let it ripe there	14:46
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DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: why?	14:48
DocScrutinizer05	it saved us days and weeks of time	14:48
DocScrutinizer05	and was pretty "cheap"	14:48
DocScrutinizer05	we didn't feel like migarting to something different during migration. I'm not Dawg	14:49
DocScrutinizer05	Yo Dawg, heard youlike migrations, so we made migrations during migrations, so you can headdesk all day long	14:50
jacekowski	it's not userfriendly	14:50
jacekowski	and it does a lot of things differently	14:50
DocScrutinizer05	exactly	14:51
DocScrutinizer05	so would you be the one to port stuff and write new plugins for any other sw ?	14:51
DocScrutinizer05	we had other more important things on our plate	14:52
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DocScrutinizer05	and still have	14:52
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: we discussed it and common sense been it's not worth the effort to safe a 180 bucks and get something new right now	14:54
DocScrutinizer05	if somebody from larger community is willing to port it to something "better", we're willing to support such effort/project by offering a VM and doing tests with life data	14:55
DocScrutinizer05	in 2 months or 3	14:55
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tx0h	huhu	16:38
tx0h	how can i switch the usb mode from pc to mass storage and vice versa	16:39
DocScrutinizer05	there are two scripts	16:39
tx0h	nice	16:39
DocScrutinizer05	osso-usb-mass-storage-*.sh	16:40
tx0h	ok, i first need to -disable.sh and then -enable.sh	16:41
tx0h	ty	16:41
DocScrutinizer05	yw	16:42
kerio	those won't enable pcsuite though	16:44
kerio	also, i'm not sure the ui follows that	16:44
kerio	pcsuite has its own scrips	16:44
kerio	scripts	16:44
tx0h	named?\	16:45
kerio	iirc, they're pcsuite-*	16:45
tx0h	also enable and disable, right?	16:46
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DocScrutinizer05	pcsuite-disable.sh pcsuite-enable.sh	16:47
* tx0h nods		16:48
tx0h	hmmm.. my linux desktop sees sdb and sdc but i can't mount them	16:50
kerio	you have to mount sdb as a single partition	16:50
kerio	sdc should have a partition table	16:50
kerio	or viceversa	16:50
DocScrutinizer05	blkid might help, iirc	16:51
tx0h	both have no partition table (fdisK: unable to open /dev/sdb: No medium found)	16:51
tx0h	same with sdc	16:52
tx0h	but syslog says they are attached	16:52
tx0h	as sg2 and sg3	16:52
DocScrutinizer05	hmm, so obviously not sdb	16:54
kerio	i blame systemd	16:54
DocScrutinizer05	fair enough I guess	16:55
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DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.233325] scsi 8:0:0:0: Direct-Access Nokia N900 031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2	17:01
DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.233557] sd 8:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg5 type 0	17:02
DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.234526] scsi 8:0:0:1: Direct-Access Nokia N900 031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2	17:02
DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.234772] sd 8:0:0:1: Attached scsi generic sg6 type 0	17:02
DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.241900] sd 8:0:0:0: [sde] Attached SCSI removable disk	17:02
DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.244140] sd 8:0:0:1: [sdf] Attached SCSI removable disk	17:02
DocScrutinizer05	Mar 9 16:01:04 saturn dbus-daemon[879]: **** ADDING /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.8/2-1.8:1.0/host8/target8:0:0/8:0:0:0/block/sde	17:02
kerio	spam!	17:02
DocScrutinizer05	pr0n	17:02
tx0h	yepp, looks similar. after a nokia boot i can mount sdb (which is /home/user/MyApps)	17:03
DocScrutinizer05	anyway it needed selecting MSM from menu before my desktop showed them devices as available (well after the above quote)	17:04
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: you haven't seen spam yet. that friggin DBUS shit in my syslog is true spam	17:05
kerio	gotta love the linux desktop	17:06
DocScrutinizer05	the above 7 lines dissolve in that	17:06
kerio	i heard it's its year	17:06
tx0h	MSM from menu??	17:06
DocScrutinizer05	plugging in that N900 created like >100 loglines in syslog	17:07
DocScrutinizer05	most of them DBUS spam: Mar 9 16:03:24 saturn dbus-daemon[879]: **** CHANGED /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.8/2-1.8:1.0/host8/target8:0:0/8:0:0:1/block/sdf	17:07
tx0h	what is MSM in which menu?	17:08
DocScrutinizer05	mass storage mode	17:08
DocScrutinizer05	in the menu that popps up	17:08
kerio	ah yes, osso-usb-mass-storage-enable.sh requires a device file as a parameter	17:08
tx0h	ah, you mean the dialog	17:08
kerio	so those two are two LUNs that don't do anything	17:08
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tx0h	oh, device file? lile /dev/mmcblk0 ?	17:09
kerio	it'd have to be /dev/mmcblk0p1	17:09
kerio	but you have to umount MyDocs first	17:09
kerio	or Bad Things will happen	17:10
tx0h	so you really give the partition and not the whole disk	17:12
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tx0h	why does frozen cake takes so long to thaw	17:16
DocScrutinizer05	because you can't wait to eat it	17:17
tx0h	thats true. i can't wait	17:18
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tx0h	what things can be done in pc mode?	17:27
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Macer	wow	17:32
Macer	my lumia 900 went for 150 on ebay. that was far more than i thought :)	17:33
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Macer	:) an N9 is cheaper than an N8	17:43
tx0h	yes, windows is more expensive	17:44
thedead1440	...and a N8 is cheaper than a N900. so? It depends on geographical areas...	17:45
tx0h	i just got my first usb-fine n900 for 60eur	17:46
tx0h	last week	17:46
tx0h	is this price ok?	17:48
thedead1440	tx0h: its a bargain if the hw is fine ;)	17:48
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tx0h	it works like my other one but with usb port :-)	17:49
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Macer	wow... yeah you're right	17:52
Macer	but i just thought it strange since they are same models	17:52
Macer	ie: N8 to N9	17:52
Macer	then again i suppose at the time they were more parallel than anything	17:53
Macer	i wouldn't mind getting an n9 just to get one	17:53
tx0h	n8 hasnt a keyboard and only 16gb	17:53
Macer	n9 doesn't have a keyboard either ;)	17:53
tx0h	aeh, n9	17:53
tx0h	i meant	17:54
Macer	yeah :(	17:54
thedead1440	Macer: it all depends on location and sellers. I just did a simple ebay.com search now and N8 buy it now is going for even $110 while most are around the $240-$270 range. The cheapest N9 for buy it now starts at $240	17:54
Macer	that's its biggest drawback	17:54
Macer	thedead1440: oh i just looked it up on amazon	17:54
tx0h	they should give us a N900	17:54
Macer	ebay is good for some things but amazon usually has a fair representation of the price	17:54
tx0h	back, with better usb soldering	17:54
thedead1440	yeah we mortals here in Singapore have to depend on ebay since Amazon doesn't service us well :(	17:54
Macer	ouch lol	17:55
Macer	been to singapore. awesome place.	17:55
thedead1440	also wasn't amazon the one where N8s were going for $200 or $250 around 8months after release?	17:55
Macer	not sure i didn't keep up with them much	17:56
Macer	i was just looking at 808s and N9s	17:56
thedead1440	it was rumoured that offer helped push up N8 sales	17:56
Macer	naturally N8s popped up in the N9 search	17:56
tx0h	singapore is, where the unpaid taxes go, right?	17:56
Macer	yeah heh	17:56
thedead1440	ah 808 that's one you should get just for that gigantic sensor	17:56
thedead1440	tx0h: hehe	17:56
Macer	tx0h: no i thin kthat's switzerland still	17:56
Macer	although the swiss punked out	17:56
Macer	and gave accts to the US	17:56
Macer	wtf? :)	17:56
thedead1440	singapore beat the swiss ;)	17:56
Macer	after that the swiss probably lost half its banking industry	17:57
Macer	hahaha	17:57
Macer	its main draw was that they were strictly confidential regardless of circumstances	17:57
Macer	and they caved to US politicial pressure	17:57
thedead1440	there was an EU delegation who came down here with some warrants and notices to search account details of EU citizens and they were flatly denied and told to enjoy their stay and leave soon after :D	17:57
Macer	lol	17:57
Macer	that's awesome	17:57
Macer	and singapore is a huge exchange...so messing with them is out of the question	17:58
thedead1440	true	17:58
Macer	you sanction singapore then the dow will drop like 10,000 points the next day lol	17:58
thedead1440	also Singapore bailed out a number of banks so you don't mess with your paymasters ;)	17:59
Macer	yeah that too haha	17:59
Macer	but yeah.. singapore was awesome	17:59
Macer	not nearly as bad as people make it sound	17:59
Macer	like spitting gum on the ground will get your tongue chopped off or something... i mean i didn't test it but i know i didn't see much "strictness"	18:00
thedead1440	its bad for the politics, heat and damn expensive cars	18:00
Macer	it reminded me of asian vegas :)	18:00
thedead1440	its a S$500 fine for littering although you don't get caught easily	18:00
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Macer	yeah but i'm not much of a litterbug heh	18:00
thedead1440	and chewing gum was banned for >10 years. even though allowed only if you registered with your ID at point of purchase	18:00
Macer	we have fines for that here too but it is never enforced	18:00
Macer	lol... i didn't chew any gum ;) i just got some breath mints	18:01
Macer	when i went the exchange rate was awesome too	18:01
Macer	i was there in 06	18:01
thedead1440	ah you must have got i think 1.60 to a US dollar at that time	18:02
tx0h	jersey, the private isle of the queen. thats where you can put your money :-)	18:03
Macer	roughly	18:04
Macer	i think more than that to be honest	18:04
Macer	it was almost 2:1	18:04
thedead1440	2:1 nah impossible	18:04
Macer	lol	18:04
Macer	well... i considered cost was less as well ;)	18:04
thedead1440	the worst it has ever been was ~2003 at 1.78	18:04
thedead1440	its at 1.25 now btw ;)	18:05
Macer	$1.66 (January 2, 2006)	18:06
Macer	that's about the time i was there	18:06
Macer	lol	18:07
Macer	i'm surprised the S$ isn't beating the US$	18:07
Macer	we are in such bad shape	18:07
thedead1440	nah the govt won't allow it to beat the US$; you don't want to chase away Exxon and the likes	18:07
Macer	it's amazing the world keeps its head in the sand about the state of the US economy	18:07
Macer	it is an absolute nightmare here .. and our govt is skewing the unemployment numbers to make things look ok	18:08
Macer	it's like soviet russia	18:08
Macer	they said it is down nationally to 7.6% i believe, but those numbers don't reflect the people who have run out of unemployment benefits and simply gave up on looking anymore	18:08
thedead1440	well its the USA; everyone has interests in it not dying off so its artificially propped up in a way	18:09
Macer	so in reality it could be as high as 15% lol	18:09
Macer	yeah exactly. but eventually it has to come to a fall :)	18:09
Macer	you can't keep acting like enron forever	18:09
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Macer	not only that but our government doesn't show any relation to increase in welfare entitlements vs unemployment rates	18:10
Macer	meaning you don't see those who stopped looking swapping over to welfare	18:10
Macer	if you were to lump it all together you'd probably have around 30-40% of the US being "poor"	18:10
thedead1440	yeah its a sad state of affairs	18:10
Macer	meaning our govt is paying for roughly that many people to survive	18:11
thedead1440	unfortunately its the middle and lower groups who are squeezed	18:11
Macer	although our version of survival is far different than real poor people in poor countries lol	18:11
Macer	we have fat poor people	18:11
Macer	in most other countries they'd have died off by now :)	18:11
thedead1440	loll	18:11
Macer	honestly it isn't someone filing for welfare that gets on my nerves	18:12
Macer	it happens. it is meant for just that occasion	18:12
Macer	it is the abuse of it where you have individuals who have the cradle to grave mentality and are born on welfare and stay on it until they die	18:13
thedead1440	true	18:13
thedead1440	well that happens in a welfare state	18:13
thedead1440	things always have pros and cons	18:13
Macer	i have no problem with anybody who uses welfare for a short period until the economy bounces back etc.. like i said.. it is exactly how it is meant to be used	18:13
Macer	i know someone who had to do that	18:13
thedead1440	here you don't have any welfare. All welfare is the 20% of salary you paid to your own fund monthly and the govt decides how much you can take out of it at which time of your life. So no govt welfare but your own money you are limited on its options	18:14
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Macer	yeah	18:16
Macer	that is how social security is supposed to work here ;)	18:16
Macer	that didn't work either	18:16
Macer	they had a story of some old woman who put in $10,000 and has so far received like $100+K	18:16
Macer	so it's just a giant ponzi scheme	18:17
thedead1440	that's cool	18:17
thedead1440	:D	18:17
Macer	and we have a giant chunk of our population coming to age	18:17
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Macer	so we are about to witness a social security "run on the bank"	18:17
Macer	heh	18:17
GeneralAntilles	Toxic incentives	18:17
GeneralAntilles	Road to hell and all that.	18:17
Macer	so now another program that will fail :)	18:17
Macer	although it has failed already anyways	18:17
Macer	my favorite govt debacle is the USPO	18:18
Macer	they make the post office pay for a pension that has absolutely nothing to do with postal workers :)	18:18
GeneralAntilles	You don't "put in" money into social secuirty	18:18
GeneralAntilles	it's an income transfer scheme, no more.	18:18
GeneralAntilles	Pension bombs are going to collapse California	18:18
Macer	GeneralAntilles: yes. seems so.	18:18
Macer	IL too	18:19
Macer	CA and IL have giant state economies .. there is no way they should be broke.. and pensions are the reason why	18:19
Macer	we have people who are able to triple and quadruple up on pensions	18:19
Macer	receiving more money retired than they ever received working .. on top of other benefits and entitlements	18:19
thedead1440	wtf? that's one seriously broken system	18:20
SpeedEvil	linking payments strictly to contributions has problems.	18:20
SpeedEvil	for example, what about someone who gets into a no-fault accident at age 17, and is unlikely to ever be able to work again	18:21
Macer	heh yeah	18:23
Macer	we had a recent article abouta guy who went to the chicago police academy and something happened.. i can't remember what	18:23
Macer	he has collected nearly $500K in disability pay over the span of 10 years for being a cadet for roughly 1 week :)	18:24
Macer	it is absolutely insane	18:24
Macer	the problem is that the US has an overabundance of people looking to get over on the systems in place	18:24
Macer	there is no honor because we have the "me now" mentality.. nobody cares about the society as a whole	18:24
Macer	not even the politicians ;)	18:25
Macer	waiting for this guy to pay for me to send out this lumia 900	18:25
Macer	so glad i swapped over to tmobile prepaid for $30/month.. :)	18:25
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GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, biggest problem in the US is that welfare is handled at the federal level	18:39
GeneralAntilles	It'd be similar to the EU handling welfare for every member state	18:39
GeneralAntilles	It's a mess and, being government, there's no incentive to do it usefully or efficiently.	18:39
GeneralAntilles	Macer, problem isn't so much the people, but the systems in place that enable toxic behavior.	18:40
GeneralAntilles	hell, incentivize it.	18:40
Macer	agreed heh	18:42
Macer	working at mcdonalds for a poor mother with no baby daddy would probably mean like a $20K/year reduction in "pay"	18:43
GeneralAntilles	There was an interesting article recently looking at marginal tax rates for single mothers in the UK	18:45
GeneralAntilles	There's effective no difference in income between no job and a £50k salary	18:45
GeneralAntilles	Make marginally less at the £50k.	18:46
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tx0h	ok, i made a tar of /home thru nfs. can i repartition the internal mmc now and play the tar back with no problem?	18:52
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Estel_	hey, hey, divVerent, actually some very interesting thing you're doing	18:57
Estel_	was your printer connected via hostmode, or via wifi?	18:57
Estel_	if the latter, why not cups? One of my task for near future was to make N900 print into printers connected by USB, and cups via easy debian was the only way that seemed to work	18:58
Estel_	very interesting things you're messing with, when it goes to that debian things	18:58
Estel_	BTW to make dpkg GTFO, you need to repackage it with "faking" dependency to match maemos glibc	18:59
Estel_	if it works with old glibc, just pretending to need never one, it's OK to fix that dependency, and even upload it to maemo -devel	18:59
Estel_	as for other things, like your idea of giving wrong hash and logging root only via local ssh, quite interesting ;)	19:00
Estel_	but what if yoy need to launch something GUI'fied via root, for some debug purpose or whatsnot?	19:00
* tx0h sighs		19:01
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divVerent	Estel_: wifi, plugged via ethernet into the AP	19:41
divVerent	i do not want to waste RAM on cupsd when not using it	19:41
divVerent	as for launching GUI stuff via ssh: ssh -X or -Y	19:42
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* sixwheeledbeast puts a pizza in the oven and is reminded how great cooktimer is :)		20:06
tx0h	n900 - the cooking helper	20:07
sixwheeledbeast	props to ade	20:10
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Macer	tx0h: lol	20:19
Macer	sixwheeledbeast: you know they sell an egg timer for like $1? :)	20:20
Macer	or does the n900 shut your oven off?	20:20
tx0h	via bluetooth	20:21
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Macer	i was going to say wifi but i guess bt works as well	20:21
Macer	:)	20:21
Macer	remotely after leaving for the store forgetting you had something in the oven heh	20:22
tx0h	but with IR you can boil your eggs directly	20:22
Macer	i usually use the built in death ray for that.. concentrated gamma rays are far faster than IR	20:25
tx0h	also true	20:25
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sixwheeledbeast	Macer: you can't time three different things with a eggtimer	20:29
sixwheeledbeast	Macer: also cooktimer is FOSS	20:29
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tx0h	please help me with my repartitioning thing	20:35
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sixwheeledbeast	tx0h: repartitioning?	20:41
tx0h	yes, the mmc	20:41
tx0h	i like to have more for opt	20:41
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tx0h	i made a tar of /home thru nfs. can i repartition the internal mmc now and play the tar back with no problem?	20:42
sixwheeledbeast	tx0h: never done it but have you read http://wiki.maemo.org/Repartitioning_the_flash	20:43
tx0h	they don't write much about backup and play it back. i just like to know if a simple tar cf / tar xf will do the job	20:50
tx0h	i know how to delete/create partitions and create filesystems	20:51
kerio	tx0h: yep	20:53
kerio	i suggest using rescueOS	20:53
tx0h	tar isn't good enough?	20:54
tx0h	i already have a 2.8gb tar	20:54
kerio	...wat	20:55
kerio	/home isn't even big enough for that	20:55
kerio	what did you tar	20:55
kerio	you probably tarred MyDocs too	20:55
tx0h	/home	20:55
tx0h	sure	20:55
kerio	yeah, you don't want to tar /home, especially not on a live system	20:55
tx0h	a backup of all data on mmc (escept swap)	20:56
kerio	you want to tar the contents of the second partition of the emmc, when the system isn't booted	20:56
kerio	and then, separately, MyDocs if you want to	20:56
tx0h	but /home has /opt, these are all the programs i've installed	20:56
tx0h	and i can extract them with tar xf bla.tar home/opt home/user	20:57
tx0h	and sure i want my cached maptiles back in MyDocs :-)	20:58
tx0h	and don't i need to mkfs for the /home partition?	21:00
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tx0h	i don't see why i can't just extract the tar file under /home	21:05
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kerio	because /home/user/MyDocs is a mountpoint	21:25
tx0h	well, but i can mount it before i extract the tar archive	21:26
tx0h	which files are so complicated that i can't tar them in a running environment?	21:27
nox-	anything that changes at runtime	21:29
tx0h	can you name some?	21:29
nox-	not really	21:29
kerio	~/.cache	21:29
nox-	its a known issue with backups on any syste,	21:29
nox-	system	21:30
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tx0h	in ~/.cache is nothing of interest	21:30
kerio	also, i'm not entirely sure there's nothing that changes in /opt	21:31
tx0h	i roughly looked through all dirs under /home and can't find nothing critical	21:33
kerio	ok, then why the fuck are you asking us	21:34
tx0h	because i could oversee something	21:34
kerio	like the fact that you made the image while the system was running	21:35
tx0h	and 'just don't do it because there is a convention' is not a real good reason	21:35
tx0h	i just like to know: hey, there is this or that file open, when you write the backup back you broke this and that.	21:36
kerio	hm, tracker does his thing in ~	21:39
tx0h	well, i think i will go for it. i guess i can't brick with that	21:42
Estel_	tx0h, while I would recommend doing it in live system, I sympatize with your "lets do it and see what heppens, as there is no technical proof that it won't work"	21:50
Estel_	(especially, that it's not my system :P)	21:51
Estel_	just tell us how it ended, Ok? I suspect you'll be allright	21:51
Estel_	for future, not including mountpoints in backup speed things up, especially, if you may have - again, in future- much more thing in mydocs	21:51
tx0h	well, actually i struggle with unmounting /opt	21:51
Estel_	no much reason to include it in casual backup	21:51
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Estel_	during runtime of hildon?	21:52
Estel_	dont do that	21:52
Estel_	just exclude thing you dont want from backup	21:52
Estel_	btw, never heard of backupmenu? :P	21:52
Estel_	it is program that would do all of it for you	21:52
tx0h	sure, but i don't know if it supports nfs	21:52
Estel_	where do you have nfs	21:52
tx0h	on my desktop	21:53
Estel_	backupmenu doesn't have anything to do with your desktop	21:53
tx0h	see	21:53
Estel_	it backups your root and home to mydocs or sd card	21:53
tx0h	thats why i don't use it	21:53
Estel_	on device	21:53
Estel_	no desktop involved	21:53
Estel_	well, any reason for not using sd card to store backup and restore it later? ;)	21:54
tx0h	i don't have a sd card. and backupmenu didn't support nfs	21:54
Estel_	so backup to mydocs and move file to desktop, later	21:54
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tx0h	but i have a backup already	21:54
Estel_	btw backupmenu support whatever you mod it to support, I've included ext4 for my personal use	21:54
Estel_	well	21:55
Estel_	so why unmounting opt for a life of you?	21:55
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, managed to get rid of screw in screen?	21:55
Estel_	I had same problem with perfectly circular screw once, and no left drill at hand, so could share experiences if needed.	21:55
Estel_	tx0h, what you want to do is get backupmenu, and either do it's backup or - if you want to use one backup you have already - enable backupmenu's mass storage mode...	21:57
Estel_	which export all partitions, including mmcblk0p2, to your deskto	21:57
Estel_	there, using gparted or whatever, change partition layout	21:57
Estel_	if you're wise boy, you have backupmenu backup and mydocs backuped separately, so you can, instead of time-consuming resizing, just create new partition table on device	21:58
Estel_	with any layout you feel fancy	21:58
Estel_	I have 7 partitions on eMMC ;)	21:58
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Estel_	then you just restore backup and everything is done	21:59
Estel_	this way I use to repartition one N900 using no desktop, just another N900	21:59
Estel_	using easy debian's gparted and hostmode	21:59
Estel_	I even use modified backupmenu for migrating to ext4 home at the same time	22:00
Estel_	I replace backupmenu files with ones that have all my mkfs time and mountime optimizations, then, I modify mount-opts and genfstab.awk to support ext4 (during runtime of device with ext3, as it's important on boot only)	22:01
tx0h	with backupmenu i can edit the partitions of /dev/mmcblk0 ??	22:01
tx0h	on my desktop?	22:01
Estel_	then I reboot into backupmenu, do backup (that include files for mount with ext4, as they were modified before reboot), connect device to another device and create new partition table, then, I restore backup using backupmenu	22:02
Estel_	10 minutes and device repartitioned + filesystem for home changed, without involving desktop at all, yet, still using nice gui tools for creating partition layout	22:02
Estel_	tx0h, yes	22:02
tx0h	and i can mount all the partitions on my desktop?	22:02
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Estel_	well, without backupmenu you can do it to, but editing mmcblk0p2 during device runtime with X and hildon and things would be catastrophic	22:03
Estel_	tx0h, yes	22:03
Estel_	absolutely all partitions	22:03
tx0h	i tried that before but i just could mount MyDocs	22:03
Estel_	there is option "mass storage mode" for read only or for read and write in backupmenu, whoich safely exports all partitions as mass storage	22:03
Estel_	safely, because it's not regular maemo runtime, so you can mess with mmcblk0p2 too	22:03
Estel_	never heard about any problems with it, so i suspect user-error ;)	22:04
Estel_	also, be sure to use linux on desktoop, as windoze won't know what to do with ext home	22:04
Estel_	even less let you create new partition table, properly	22:05
Estel_	if you don't have linux dektop, use livecd (I recommend aptosid)	22:05
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tx0h	i connected the phone via usb to my laptop and saw sdb and sdc but could only mount sdb (MyDocs)	22:05
Estel_	or virtualisation	22:05
Estel_	because you don't have microsd	22:05
Estel_	and sdc is microsd :P	22:05
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Estel_	+, under linux, and using backupmenu mass storage mode, you will see things like sdb1, sdb2, sdb3...	22:06
Estel_	(mydocs, home, and swap)	22:06
tx0h	aha, but then i did not got the whole disk and even not /home itself	22:06
Estel_	yep.	22:06
tx0h	i tried fdisk on /dev/sdb and got nothing	22:07
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Estel_	btw sdb is pure example, it may be whatever, depending on your disk's layout	22:07
tx0h	sure	22:07
Estel_	without experience with messing with it via terminal, better use gparted	22:07
tx0h	well, i do unix/linux since 30 years	22:08
Estel_	I have experience with terminal partitioning, yet still it's faster and less error prone to use good'old'gparted	22:08
Estel_	:)	22:08
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tx0h	but there is even no single user mode on the phone :-)	22:08
Estel_	well, then you should be coding kernel for us, instead of asking about basics :P	22:08
Estel_	(joking)	22:08
sixwheeledbeast	Estel_: well stuck in there but not too worried tbh	22:09
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, what I used is hard screwdriver (prefferably flat), small enough to fit into screw	22:09
Estel_	more sharp one, the better	22:09
tx0h	ok, i will try the backupmenu and see if i can get the mmc on my host	22:09
Estel_	and carefully hammer it a little into screw. Doing it right, no chances to punctuate screw	22:10
Estel_	then, carefully, you should be able to unscrew it	22:10
Estel_	you need to cut a little into screw, it's not hardest one on earth	22:10
Estel_	most screwdrivers are harder, thankfuly, so will cut inside easily	22:10
Estel_	then dispose of that screw :P	22:10
Estel_	tx0h, sure	22:10
Estel_	and be supercool carefull with screwing them, they're quite soft, thats why nokia manuals say "dispose of screws" after every operation on them	22:11
Estel_	of course it's bullshit, and if you're carefull, screws on N900 can last eternity	22:11
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Estel_	just use correct screwdriver and watch for rounding	22:12
sixwheeledbeast	Estel_: not a chance of that working I tried alsorts when there was a head on the screw	22:12
Estel_	well, without head it should not hold anything	22:12
sixwheeledbeast	i suspect the thread was borked during manufacture	22:12
Estel_	hm, never saw that on any nokia screw.	22:13
Estel_	btw glueing screwdriver to screw wont work for 99,99% of times	22:13
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sixwheeledbeast	correct hence not too worried, I drilled the head off after trying to glue/reverse drill/ cut slot in head	22:14
Estel_	even soldering it to screw won't help ;)	22:14
Estel_	wow, reverse drill haven't helped?	22:14
sixwheeledbeast	I know solder would be pointless	22:14
sixwheeledbeast	i mean it was seriously in there	22:14
Estel_	on slow turnings?	22:14
Estel_	heh	22:15
sixwheeledbeast	yep	22:15
Estel_	honestly, you're right with not being worries, one screw there lacking is generally OK	22:15
Estel_	btw just few minutes ago i disassembled device to fix slider, as screen was shaking a little on it's own gravity	22:16
Estel_	after zillions of slidings	22:16
sixwheeledbeast	the best option was cutting a slot in the top I put so much torque on the flat screwdriver half to head came off	22:16
sixwheeledbeast	s/to/the/	22:16
infobot	sixwheeledbeast meant: the best option was cutting a slot in the thep I put so much torque on the flat screwdriver half to head came off	22:16
Estel_	was super-easy to fix via applying force on slider parts, to make it thickier again	22:16
sixwheeledbeast	grr not what I meant infobot	22:17
sixwheeledbeast	insulting tape	22:17
Estel_	:)	22:17
Estel_	s/ to / the / would work better	22:18
sixwheeledbeast	oh did I mention before all the choas of the head getting rounded it snapped my ph0 bit	22:18
Estel_	heh	22:18
sixwheeledbeast	s/ choas / chaos /	22:18
infobot	sixwheeledbeast meant: oh did I mention before all the chaos of the head getting rounded it snapped my ph0 bit	22:18
sixwheeledbeast	:)	22:18
Estel_	:)	22:18
sixwheeledbeast	hence I suspect thread issue	22:19
Estel_	divVerent, I disable cups when not in use, afterr all, it sits in chroot	22:19
Estel_	so it doesn't eat memory when not used, that would be unnaceptable ;)	22:19
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tx0h	nice, i can fdisk it now with 'w' from backupmenu	22:29
tx0h	:-)	22:29
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tx0h	ok, i make a new tar backup now, fdisk the disk and write the backup back	22:34
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Estel_	tx0h, exactly	22:48
Estel_	~seen Pali	22:48
infobot	pali <~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 21h 34m 16s ago, saying: 'DocScrutinizer05, here is link for PR.1.3.1 fiasco image: http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin'.	22:49
kerio	Estel_: i just do it on device with rescueOS nowadays :)	22:49
Estel_	but it is still creating new partition table via terminal	22:50
kerio	of course	22:50
kerio	why wouldn't i want to use fdisk	22:50
Estel_	much more error prone than gui tools. Of course, with terminal, you may do it all on single device, not two. Even with backupmenu, not necessary rescueOS	22:50
Estel_	well, It's quicker to divice emmc into 7 partitions of exactly same size as I want, using gparted ;)	22:51
tx0h	well, i still have /home and /home/user/MyDocs in one tar file :-p	22:51
tx0h	:-)	22:51
Estel_	but your mydocs is empty	22:51
Estel_	if made via backupmenu	22:51
Estel_	just a mountpoint	22:51
tx0h	nope, i mounted it	22:51
Estel_	well	22:51
Estel_	if you feel it fancy ;)	22:52
tx0h	it's so much faster than doing it over wireless	22:52
Estel_	for me this way home backups grow unnecessary in size - if you fckd smth on device and want to restore, you restore home, doesn't need to touch mydocs	22:53
tx0h	but my other n900 has no usb yet.	22:53
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tx0h	you are right but normaly i don't do backups :------)	22:53
tx0h	thats the admins task	22:54
tx0h	harhar	22:54
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, what was that command to tell something to someone, when he arrive? (not about factoid). And how to use it properly, so it would tell it once, on one channel, not everywhere, where that person appears, and infobot is present?	22:54
Estel_	considering the ammount of bleeding edge things I install, I do backups all the time	22:54
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tx0h	yepp, you are very active with the n900 and i welcome it!	22:55
tx0h	i saw some hardware mods as well	22:55
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sixwheeledbeast	well you can't backup after a failure... I was made up I had a backup when ribbon died	23:03
tx0h	ok, /home has 8gb now	23:04
tx0h	funtastic	23:04
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kerio	tx0h: "single user" mode is backupmenu's shell or rescueOS's shell	23:11
kerio	or the recovery console in bootmenu, i suppose	23:11
kerio	...yes, recovery console in bootmenu is the closest thing to single user mode	23:11
tx0h	i'm done. ty	23:11
kerio	i would still install recovery console and rescueOS in u-boot	23:12
tx0h	but for the other n900 its good to know	23:12
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Estel_	tx0h, glad you've made it :)	23:21
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Estel_	yea, I do hardware mods to, including one major that I hope to finish before dying of old age	23:21
kerio	Estel_: alu body?	23:22
tx0h	yepp, i just hope i can fix the usb on the other one	23:22
Estel_	= repalcement body for N900, that would allow us to utilize all hardware possibilities N900 give	23:22
Estel_	kerio, yea - alu, or, as for my personal one of choice, wooden :P	23:22
kerio	don't be silly	23:22
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Estel_	what, some exotic wood looks fantastic	23:23
kerio	the screen part would be the stock one, right?	23:23
Estel_	yea	23:23
kerio	metal on wood doesn't look good	23:23
tx0h	water resistent magnesia aloy would be nice	23:23
Estel_	depends on wood, I plan to use black one :P	23:23
kerio	ebony?	23:23
Estel_	moving parts wouldnt be water reistant, but rest assured, when I ever finish this project...	23:24
Estel_	there is someone who would pay me few k dollars for deep underwater resistant body	23:24
Estel_	for N900	23:24
Estel_	bioshock, ffs :P	23:24
Macer	doubt it	23:24
kerio	Estel_: how do you make the slider water resistant?	23:25
Estel_	why so, people have different use cases	23:25
tx0h	wow	23:25
Estel_	kerio, haven5 though about it yet, especially for higher pressures	23:25
tx0h	he could use a camera bag	23:25
Estel_	but everything is doable	23:25
Estel_	now for higher pressure (camera bag)	23:25
Estel_	s/now/not/	23:25
infobot	Estel_ meant: not for higher pressure (camera bag)	23:25
Macer	because for such a niche market like underwater photography	23:26
Estel_	kerio, no joking, I would first check what submarines use for moving parts :P	23:26
Macer	i doubt the first thing that comes to someone's mind is "oh yeah.. my ancient n900..."	23:26
Macer	especially for deep diving	23:26
Estel_	I dount it's about submarine phoptography	23:26
Macer	that requires a "pressure bag" heh	23:26
Estel_	btw, N900 is quite OK :P	23:27
Estel_	for underwater photo	23:27
Estel_	saw some really nice underwqater video in HD made by N900	23:27
Macer	the n900 doesn't even do hd without some type of overclocking hackery i thought	23:27
Estel_	...then utilize replacement body's external antenna conector, and communicate with world like submarines does	23:27
Macer	which i am sure is awesome for the n900 while it is stuck inside an airtight bag to prevent it from imploding :)	23:28
Estel_	Macer, you're years away of knowing anything about what maemo can do	23:28
Estel_	;)	23:28
Macer	uhm	23:28
Estel_	hd recoring is quite common now, thanks to freemangordon's work	23:28
Macer	is it upscaled SD ? :)	23:28
Estel_	of course not.	23:28
Macer	i was joking	23:29
Macer	can't see it.. there has to be hackery involved :)	23:29
Estel_	wasn't sur, considering all this "maemo is stuck" bullshit you're selling us every 2 days :P	23:29
Macer	it is	23:29
Macer	heh	23:29
Estel_	hackery as in using some files from harm and slight overclocking of DSP	23:29
Macer	DocScrutinizer05 said it himself, "THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR MAEMO!!!!"	23:30
Macer	heh	23:30
Estel_	btw, do you know that hildon desktop successfuly run on arch on N900? :P	23:30
Estel_	haha	23:30
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Estel_	I wouldn't listen to DocScrutinizer05 when it comes to things where emotions are involved	23:30
Macer	either way tho.. why would someone use an n900 for diving? :) i mean i guess maybe some maemo nut	23:30
Estel_	to said it at least and in non-offensive way :P	23:31
Macer	no way. he was right tho. :)	23:31
Estel_	because android suck and there is still nothing better than N900 in the market, when it comes to super mobile computer with all computer functionalities?	23:31
Macer	he fought tooth and nail to explain why maemo wasn't going to run on any new hardware.. then finally blurted out the brutal truth	23:31
Estel_	I would gladly use something with 1GB RAM, or more, but there is no such thing ;)	23:31
Macer	hm. depends on what you consider "computer functionalities"	23:32
Estel_	not only functionalities - doing what desktop can do	23:32
Estel_	ask yourself why android suck on that big time	23:32
Macer	depends on what you mean again	23:33
Macer	for the most part with the right apps android can pretty much do anything maemo can although it woudl do it slower on better hardware	23:33
Macer	but nowadays the hardware is so retardedly fast that doesn't matter	23:33
Estel_	cmon, it's all thing about so-called smartphone vs computer	23:33
Estel_	for the most part android require you to pay for funny "apps", and surely won't let me use debian on it ;)	23:34
Macer	sure.. but... i dunno.. i think if i hooked up my tf101 to something hdmi.. .. i would be able to fulfill my "computer needs" on it	23:34
Macer	i mean as far as a user goes	23:34
Estel_	depend on computer needs you have - for me it's about real computer, i.e. all that things like upstream kernel, X, proper hostmode etc	23:35
Macer	obviously i probably won't be able to run it as an android server :) but who would do that to their phone heh	23:35
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Macer	i think those types of things are more a problem with the manufacturer of the phone than android	23:36
Estel_	and achieving anything on android is super-pita	23:36
Macer	like the most amount of users for a mobile OS? ;)	23:36
Estel_	well, some of them, yes, but lack of being real foss linux system is android fault	23:36
Macer	what is the maemo share nowadays heh	23:36
Estel_	with not-so-upstream kernel, and completely non GNU things above it	23:36
Macer	those things are great but they end without demand	23:36
Estel_	well, I really don't care about what thousand of flies use to sit at.	23:37
Macer	if only maemo started off with a functional store and lame free apps like the talking mouse and fart app :)	23:37
Estel_	and you know what I mean	23:37
Macer	no i know exactly what you mean.. you mean the functionality of the n900 is better than newer hardware but i don't blame google for that	23:37
Macer	if people stoppped buying phones because of no usb host mode	23:37
Macer	it would be added ;)	23:37
Estel_	I care about my needs for device ;) personally, I also thing that cliche for real linux device is quite big, and jolla may discover it they wo't screw it	23:38
Macer	plus.. didn't the n900 require a bit of hackery to get the host mode working?	23:38
Estel_	today, many people with simillar needs for real computer are stuck on unfriendly android, not because they like it ah so much	23:38
Macer	http://hacknmod.com/hack/run-an-android-nexus-one-on-usb-host-mode/	23:38
Estel_	dont blame google? lately, they have removed ad-hoc wifi support from android	23:39
Estel_	because some idiots may fail to know when they're MITM'ed	23:39
Macer	on a nexus one	23:39
Macer	heh	23:39
Estel_	+ all this drm shit	23:39
Macer	uhm	23:39
Estel_	I'll leave it to ubuntu :P	23:39
Macer	didn't they put it back in the latest android?	23:39
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Estel_	no idea	23:41
Estel_	btw I think you're a little wrong about that invisible market hand	23:41
Macer	if you say so... demand dictates supply	23:41
Estel_	as in "if people would like this functionality, it would be added"	23:41
Estel_	not necessary. Take gaming market as example	23:42
* Macer points at symbian and maemo and meego as examples		23:42
Estel_	people wish good mature RPG's or old style adventures, yet no big company make it	23:42
Estel_	then, new things like kickstarter appear...	23:42
Estel_	and one dude get few millions in a week just to make a game, before even drawing concept	23:42
Estel_	later, wasteland 2 is also financed before even started being manufactured...	23:43
Estel_	there is shitload of things like bad marketing and internal power games (Nokia)	23:43
Estel_	N900 was biggest success that they expected, and would be 10 times bigger if they would actually want it to be success	23:43
Macer	meh. the bottom line was they were losing money because apple and google kicked them in the balls and people liked flashy interfaces more than functionality	23:44
Estel_	instead of worrying how it will affect symbian	23:44
Macer	plain and simple heh	23:44
Macer	they didn't start making symbian anything worthwhile until belle	23:44
Estel_	frankly, I blame it rather about people not even knowing about alternatives, due to terrible marketing from Nokia	23:44
Macer	and by then they needed an MS bailout	23:44
Macer	and so with it went any other mobile OS they had	23:44
Macer	nokia didn't move fast enough when it could have due to top of the hill syndrome	23:45
Macer	they thought they'd be able to quickly buy their way out of problems	23:45
Estel_	anyway, ammount of people starting doing own things, foss software (whole Linux!) on their own, all those 3D printers etc, tell us that "demand dictates supply" being too much a "mental shortcut"	23:45
Macer	then came apple with the iphone.... that was bad enough... then came google with a much anticipated mobile OS :)	23:45
Estel_	for some extent it does, but not always and not in every matter	23:45
Macer	for all extent it does... nobody will donate money to the world for tech ;) not willingly at least	23:46
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Estel_	btw look at raspberry Pi and people who buy it... no single company wanted to do thing like that, too ;)	23:46
Macer	if we could pick and choose what we spend our taxes on there would be no DoE in the US lol	23:46
Estel_	well, Oi don't agree	23:46
Macer	pi had great demand tho	23:46
Macer	mostly for its ability to use xbmc	23:46
Macer	if nobody bought it	23:46
Macer	it wouldn't exist	23:46
Macer	:)	23:46
Estel_	most people just doesn't see sense on taxes, due to not seeing/knowing at they're used to, or seeing them wasted	23:46
Macer	if people stop buying it.. it becomes obsolete	23:47
Macer	this is basic economics	23:47
Estel_	shrug I see something more to drive things that I use in my life, than "if others buy itn	23:47
Estel_	shrug I see something more to drive things that I use in my life, than "if others buy it"	23:47
Estel_	sorry	23:47
Estel_	but you seem to say things that some big companies would like people to belive ;)	23:47
Estel_	have you never considered, that your way of thinking may be a little indoctrinated, in favor of someone else's interest?	23:48
Macer	lol!	23:49
Macer	if you think so... i say things like that because that is really how things work :)	23:49
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Estel_	well, everything is relative	23:49
Estel_	100 years before, many things were belived to "just work like that" in favor of indujstralism	23:50
Estel_	two great war changed many things	23:50
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Estel_	300 years ago, for many people, king was touched by god himself, and it was "how things work"	23:50
SpeedEvil	The market can be malfuncional.	23:50
Estel_	always in someone's interest ;)	23:50
*** muellisoft is now known as Muelli		23:50
Estel_	exactly.	23:50
Macer	SpeedEvil: i wouldn't say malfunctional :)	23:51
SpeedEvil	Look, for example at lcds.	23:51
SpeedEvil	Where can I buy a 4:3 display? Or a 140dpi desktop display	23:51
Estel_	market could have fix everything magically in theoretical examples of ideal world	23:51
Macer	the market just sometimes has an awkward way of correcting itself	23:51
SpeedEvil	They are essentially unavailable.	23:51
Estel_	where decisions would be made with 100% knowledge of subject	23:51
freemangordon	SpeedEvil: and this is the exact reason I am still using my 2001 laptop	23:52
Macer	not to mention that the too big to fail banks are ridiculously oversized and the manner in which our government creates money is retarded lol	23:52
freemangordon	4:3 screen ;)	23:52
Estel_	it doesn't include armies of lobbyists, etc	23:52
Macer	but from the basic manufacturer/consumer standpoint	23:52
Macer	if people want it they buy it	23:52
Macer	so make more of it	23:52
Macer	if they don't make less	23:52
Macer	this holds true regardless of wall street	23:52
Macer	and always has	23:52
Estel_	Well, I think that in world where consumer avariness rises, and things like crowd-funding or self-manufacturing becomes more common, many things are going to look brighter	23:52
SpeedEvil	People are not always presented with stuff they want to buy	23:53
Estel_	Macer, no. People choose only from available things	23:53
Estel_	even if they would like something very different.	23:53
Macer	Estel_: n900 was widely available	23:53
Macer	:)	23:53
SpeedEvil	For LCDs, for example, there is a truly massive investment needed to go into making new panels.	23:53
Estel_	it require more than market - like passion, or beliving in ideas, to create something different and bring it into market.	23:53
Macer	sales in comparison to the G1 for instance	23:53
Macer	the G1 outsold the N900 like 100:1 heh	23:54
Estel_	Macer, and it was more success than Nokia would like to, at that time	23:54
Estel_	same for, lets say, nokia pureview	23:54
Estel_	they did everything they could to discourage buyers	23:54
freemangordon	Macer: n900 was not backed up by Nokia	23:54
freemangordon	Estel_: :nod:	23:54
Macer	oh here we go with the nokia conspiracy theories :)	23:54
Estel_	its well known fact	23:54
Estel_	nopt conspiracy	23:54
freemangordon	Macer: this is not conspiracy	23:54
Macer	and after that it was learned that nokia, was in fact, responsible for 9/11	23:54
Estel_	many nokia employess officially confirmed most of it	23:54
SpeedEvil	Several months in, things cooled dramatically.	23:55
Estel_	ex-employees ;)	23:55
Macer	many "former" i'm sure	23:55
Macer	lol	23:55
SpeedEvil	Stupid stuff like the store not working.	23:55
Macer	and after that they said the CEO has sex with interns and men?	23:55
freemangordon	Macer: remeber elop saying that no matter what, n9 will be the last meego device?	23:55
Estel_	well, fact is that for some countries, there were 8 nokia pureviews available	23:55
Macer	i like my e7.. loved my n900	23:55
Estel_	and people paid 5-6 times the price on ebay for them	23:55
SpeedEvil	And people being actively discouraged from launching software for n900.	23:55
Macer	but i can't buy into the nokia made themselves fail on purpose theory haha	23:55
Estel_	conspiracy of ebay buyers? ;)	23:55
freemangordon	Macer: remember in which countries was n9 available in?	23:55
Macer	freemangordon: finland... and ... greenland?	23:56
Macer	:)	23:56
SpeedEvil	Macer: You're supposing 'Nokia' is one thing.	23:56
Estel_	Macer, dont you realize how bad decisions, human errors, power games, bad management etc can sinkl a company?	23:56
freemangordon	and bulkgaria and khazahstan	23:56
freemangordon	*bulgaria	23:56
Macer	khazahstan!!	23:56
Estel_	as for N900, it's said from many different sources, that they were concerned how it will affect sumbian (which was leader, then)	23:57
Estel_	btw remember petitions to have N9 in some country?	23:57
Estel_	and lack of support to N900 in many areas ;)	23:57
freemangordon	Macer: sorry for the typos, it is kazakhstan	23:57
Macer	yeah	23:57
Macer	i thought there was another k in there somewhere	23:57
Estel_	compare it to success of Pi, and interest in vivaldi, even given fact that the latter never appeared	23:58
Macer	sorry but that sounds like a comp out for supporters to explain why their device is already obsolete with no new models out :)	23:58
Estel_	I'm quite certain that niche for "geek mobile computers" is not lesser than for overpriced apple shit	23:58
Macer	like a year after mine when i had just had my n810 abandoned	23:58
SpeedEvil	It's internal politics.	23:58
Macer	just to have the n900 abandoned lol	23:58
Macer	the shit just wasn't selling	23:58
Estel_	people are dying for anything that promises FOSS mobile computer	23:58
Macer	symbian was probably their best bet	23:58
Estel_	inmcluding some cons	23:59
Macer	Estel_: maemo was anything but	23:59
Macer	lol	23:59
Macer	i used to come in here	23:59
Macer	listening to disgruntled devs all day	23:59
freemangordon	Macer: ooh, and symbian was abandoned because of the market?	23:59
SpeedEvil	Maemo was probably the closest we've gotten so far.	23:59
Macer	freemangordon: sure. nokia lost too much money. struck a deal with MS	23:59
Estel_	Macer, I think, OTOH, that you're lacking knowledge about maaany events and technical decisions...	23:59
SpeedEvil	It's a hell of a lot more linux-like than android.	23:59

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