IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2013-03-09

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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeled|away: be *careful* with glue! odds are you glue the screw in place instead of helping with getting it unscrewed00:10
ShadowJKThat's a big risk with screws this small...00:11
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: assuming Nokia(core) has access to the SW-admin-GPGkey but isn't willing to hand it out to Nokia-affiliates. What file would Matti need to send to NokiaCore to have it signed there by the SW-key? Could you investigate how such a scenario could still work?00:23
kerioDocScrutinizer05: Release00:23
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kerio(but wait for Pali's or merlin1991's confirmation)00:24
PaliDocScrutinizer05, he only needs to sign Release file on each apt line repository00:24
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I thought as much, but we'd need *details* and in-depth investigation if we were to send such a suggestion to NokiaAffiliates00:24
Paliand store signature into file Release.gpg00:24
jacekowskiwhat keys are we talking about here?00:25
Palinokia gpg key for ssu/ovi00:25
DocScrutinizer05Pali: could you write up a *detailed* (to the commandline, with arguments and FQN-filenames) instruction how to do that?00:25
DocScrutinizer05kerio: could you help?00:26
PaliDocScrutinizer05, matti already wrote that they have infrastructure & scripts for that00:26
Paliand he know how to fix it00:26
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: gpg --list-keys and then gpg --export-key key_id00:26
Palijacekowski, no00:26
DocScrutinizer05I think Matti doesn't exactly know what key to apply where, that's why he says they have scripts that do *standard* stuff for them00:27
jacekowskiPali: ?00:27
keriojacekowski: not to export the key, to sign the Release file and create a Release.gpg00:27
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Palijacekowski: they need to change gpg key00:27
Palipublic part is already hardcoded in maemo00:28
Palithey = nokia00:28
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: on device we have two pubkeys for SSU: one normal one which is expired, and a SW-admin key.00:28
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DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: Nokia-affiliates has only normal expired private key to sign SSU with00:29
DocScrutinizer05We need to update that pubkey to a extended validity date, and for that we need signature from SW-admin private-key00:29
DocScrutinizer05which is owned by Nokia-Core, not affiliates00:30
DocScrutinizer05to install a new cert with extended validity, that package needs to get signed by a valid key which is SW-adm-key00:31
PaliDocScrutinizer05, from matti's mails I understand that he know how to fix this it but he wrote that that swadmin key is used somewhere in nokia and he needs permission to use it00:31
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jacekowskiall you have to do is edit the expired key and then send it to key servers00:32
DocScrutinizer05that's why I suggest to send a detailed instruction how to go alternative path and send file to key for signature and then get signed file back. since I guess NokiaCore won't grant access/permission for SW-adm key to Matti00:32
jacekowskiand then somehow device has to find out that key is updated00:32
keriojacekowski: and then tell the n900 users to download the updated key?00:32
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kerioyou're funny00:33
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: somehow, yeah00:33
keriothe whole point is that we want to avoid that00:33
Palijacekowski, chicken & egg problem00:33
Paliyou cannot update gpg key without working ssu repo and you cannot update ssu repo without working gpg key...00:33
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keriobecause it's basically just a matter of trying to avoid having to poison n900-fmrx-enabler in extras00:33
Palijacekowski, and now gpg key is not working, so ssu repo is not working00:34
DocScrutinizer05Pali: kerio: please write up an alternative suggestion that does _not_ involve Matti getting possession of SW-adm privkey00:34
PaliDocScrutinizer05, without access to nokia server, there is no alternative solution00:34
jacekowskikerio: why fmrx-enabler?00:35
DocScrutinizer05it goes like "matti sends xy file to NokiaCore. NokiaCore signs xy file with SW-adm key and sends back to Matti. Matti does...."00:35
PaliDocScrutinizer05, nokia must update that invalid key (change it or exdent expiration)00:35
Paliwe cannot do anything with expired gpg key00:35
keriojacekowski: because it's from extras00:35
kerioand we control extras00:35
PaliDocScrutinizer05, matti has that gpg key00:36
kerioHAM will ignore updates to packages that are originally from dmnc that come from extras00:36
Paliso he can sign repos00:36
DocScrutinizer05no, you said he doesn't00:36
PaliDocScrutinizer05, matti needs permission from nokia to do that00:36
DocScrutinizer05believe me, that might mean he does NOT have access to SW-adm-prickey, and that "permission2 implies he thinks Nokia will send that privkey to him for usage00:37
freemangordon"I get comments from time to time expressing the mistaken notion that Hildon Foundation was founded just to save, and it is not limited in that way."00:37
DocScrutinizer05so the whole thing might never happen00:38
jacekowskiso the plan would be to sign repo with sw-adm key and distribute package with updated ssu key that way?00:38
DocScrutinizer05unless we suggest a way how somebody else (here: NokiaCore) can use the SW-adm privkey to some file Matti sent00:38
keriojacekowski: the plan would be to sign repo with sw-adm key00:38
jacekowskiand then what?00:38
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jacekowskiwhat if we want to change it00:39
keriothis is
freemangordonjacekowski: nothing, it will start to work00:39
keriothey won't change jack shit in it, realistically00:39
PaliDocScrutinizer05, look at matti email, he wrote that he has that key00:39
freemangordonjacekowski: RMO is a different animal00:39
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: the idea is to distribute an updated standard key via that new repo "revision" signed by SW-adm key00:39
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: we don;t really need that00:39
DocScrutinizer05Pali: No, he said "we have that key", which can mean that NokiaCore has it00:40
kerioDocScrutinizer05: that Matti dude already said that there's no way whatsoever to prepare a new PR00:40
jacekowskiis extras repo enabled by default on n900 (not extras devel)00:40
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I doubt nokia will make an effort to make a new PR00:40
keriojacekowski: it is in pr1.2 onwards00:40
DocScrutinizer05we don't need "a new PR"00:41
kerioDocScrutinizer05: nokia doesn't release updates to single packages00:41
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: sure, but distribution of a new key means PR00:41
DocScrutinizer05we need a new cert delivered via SSU00:41
jacekowskiso why don't we just distribute some core package in version 999999 using extras repo00:41
kerioeven for maemosec-certman they made a new pr00:41
PaliDocScrutinizer05, I understand that matti has that key. but I sent new email so we can wait for responce00:41
keriojacekowski: because HAM will ignore it00:41
jacekowskiwe can sign extras00:41
keriobecause of the fucking trust bullshit HAM does00:41
freemangordonbecause it is the way HAM works00:41
PaliI can ask him what is true (if he has key or not)00:41
keriofreemangordon: "fucking trust bullshit" is the correct term, please be precise00:42
DocScrutinizer05Pali: if you don't believe in my view on what this kind of mails means, then too bad00:42
freemangordonkerio: ok, ok :)00:42
jacekowskiwhat trust stuff00:42
keriojacekowski: HAM has something similar to apt pinning00:42
jacekowskiit's a normal package signed with *trusted* key00:42
freemangordonjacekowski: we *MIGHT* be able to do that, by using fmrx-enabler00:42
DocScrutinizer05for me the fact that nothing happened since 6 weeks is obvious indication of what's actually going on00:42
freemangordonbut that wont reach 100% of the devices00:42
kerioit's a normal package signed with a trusted key in a domain with trust level lower than nokia-system00:42
kerioHAM /will/ ignore that package00:43
freemangordonkerio: fmtx-enabler?00:43
DocScrutinizer05Nokia will never allow to use SWadm key as standard signing key used on buildserver00:43
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: they don;t need it on their build server00:43
kerion900-fmtx-enabler comes from extras, so we could abuse that, but it's awful00:43
freemangordonkerio: it is in PR too00:43
kerioer, fmrx-enabler00:43
keriofreemangordon: is it?00:43
freemangordonkerio: so I am not sure what will be the outcome00:44
freemangordonkerio: yes00:44
keriourgh, the highest version is from dmnc00:44
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kerioso that's probably bunk00:44
freemangordonbut I remember seeing it in HAM00:44
freemangordonwhen upgrading pr1.2 -> pr1.300:44
keriofreemangordon: because it's a user package00:44
keriothat's irrelevant00:44
freemangordonkerio: so maybe it will work after all00:44
keriofreemangordon: HAM will only *increase* the trust level of a package00:45
kerionever decrease it00:45
freemangordonkerio: but right now nokia repo has 0 trust IIUC00:45
keriothe package is at trust level 60000:45
freemangordonhmm, yes00:45
kerioif we had a virgin n900 we could check00:45
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DocScrutinizer05we need a package that deploys new cert for standard key, in *some* pkg in SSU so it propagates to all devices. Then this new version of repo needs to get signed with SWadm key00:45
kerioDocScrutinizer05: why hello there00:45
keriodo you have a completely vanilla n900?00:46
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: no way nokia to release a single package00:46
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DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: why?00:46
jacekowskiwell, thing is why do we care about ssu?00:46
keriojacekowski: you know, i'm not entirely sure00:47
jacekowskifor newly flashed devices, we can update fiasco with our keys00:47
Paliall: I think that we can wait until matti wrote response00:47
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: remember what that nokian said - n900 is on some "aftermarket" support00:47
Paliwith invalid gpg key we cannot do nothing00:47
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: because no friggin luser can update/reinstall anything from Nokia repos anymore00:47
kerioDocScrutinizer05: fwiw users aren't supposed to00:47
jacekowskiand all other devices have up to date stuff from nokia repos00:47
freemangordonjacekowski: you can't even upgrade to PR1.3 after flashing00:47
keriothe main issue is a user buying a new n900 or reflashing it and then not updating to 1.3.100:48
keriobut then again, 1.3.1 won't help them against TURKTRUST anyway00:48
jacekowskiwe can modify PR1.2 image to have our key00:48
keriodafaq, indeed00:48
DocScrutinizer05THAT's something Nokia will NOT do for us00:48
kerioDocScrutinizer05: couldn't we use the excuse of turktrust to get nokia to release a security update?00:48
Palijacekowski, but this does not change gpg signature on nokia server!00:49
DocScrutinizer05which is why they came to us00:49
jacekowskiPali: move shit to our servers00:49
freemangordonkerio: all of the maemo knowhow is non-existent in Nokia anymore00:49
Palikerio, I think no, because support for n900 finished...00:49
freemangordonthey just don;t know how to make a PR, I bet00:49
keriomassive security issue on a nokia product!00:49
freemangordonPali: it is not00:49
freemangordonthere are still devices in warranty00:49
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Palitablets-dev is down00:50
freemangordonsince forever :)00:50
PaliI think that nokia care can work without gpg key00:50
Palithey have pr 1.3.1 fiasco images00:50
Pali(I have it too)00:50
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jacekowskii think, correct way to deal with it would be to modify 1.2 image and change https://downloads.m00:51
freemangordonhmm, that might work00:51
keriojacekowski: why 1.2?00:51
jacekowskithat's the latest "official" one00:51
freemangordonyes, why PR1.200:51
freemangordonjacekowski: no, it is PR1.300:51
kerioalso, again - this is not an issue for any "future" release we make00:51
PaliDocScrutinizer05, what about publishing pr1.3.1 fiasco image??00:51
freemangordonPali: with fixed keys?00:51
keriohell, we could put cssu-stable in there with fixed keys and all that jazz00:51
Paliwith that security update?00:51
DocScrutinizer05nice but not exacly a root solution00:51
keriothe issue is existing n900s in the hand of lusers00:52
Palibecause people cannot update to pr1.3.100:52
kerio(they do exist!)00:52
jacekowskii think, correct way to deal with it would be to modify 1.2 image and change ./ to like
jacekowskiand change nokia key to our key00:52
Paliand pr1.3.1 is security update00:52
DocScrutinizer05WTF !:"????00:52
DocScrutinizer051.2 even00:52
jacekowskior even 1.3.100:52
DocScrutinizer05we got PR1.3 fiasco00:52
jacekowskibut then, 1.3.1 will never need SSU00:53
DocScrutinizer05and we got NO PR1.3.1 fiasco00:53
PaliI have it00:53
jacekowskiwe can make one00:53
Paliand it can be downloaded from nokia.com00:53
DocScrutinizer05thus when somebody reflashes, he can't update to PR1.3.100:53
jacekowskiwe can make 1.3.1 fiasco00:53
jacekowskior 1.5 if we want to00:53
DocScrutinizer05so what?00:54
PaliI *have* official nokia pr 1.3.1 image!00:54
DocScrutinizer05we want SSU fixed00:54
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, wait for matti email00:55
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DocScrutinizer05we can create a pr1.3.1 any time, and provide it, or use the existing one (first time I hear of it) - but that's absolutely unrelated to our expired-key issue with Matti00:55
jacekowskiif we have latest fiasco image we don't need SSU anymore00:55
jacekowskiit's not like anything is going to be ever released through there00:56
Palijacekowski, we need ssu00:56
Palissu has packages which are not in fiasco image00:56
Paliand some extras apps depends on them00:56
DocScrutinizer05what you suggested to Matti so far been "use SW-adm key instead of SSU key" which implies that SW-adm key would get installed unlocked and with password on production server to resign the repo00:56
Paliso you will not able to install more extras packages00:56
DocScrutinizer05we need to offer an alternative since that will *not* happen00:57
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: no00:57
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: all they have to do is sign one file with SW-adm key00:57
jacekowskiPali: what about moving that stuff into extras00:57
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: yes, *I* know that00:57
PaliDocScrutinizer05, I think you do not understand how apt gpg working00:57
DocScrutinizer05but matti does NOT know it, believe me00:58
DocScrutinizer05Pali: ooh, i don't ??00:58
PaliDocScrutinizer05, what what matti wrote and we can ask him more00:58
Palior write possible solutions00:58
DocScrutinizer05you see what matti wrote last two answers00:58
Paliyes I see and I think he know how to update it00:59
DocScrutinizer05if you don't trust in my capabilities to read and interprete such mails....00:59
DocScrutinizer05I tell you he doesn't00:59
Paliok, I will wait for answer00:59
jacekowskithere is another option00:59
jacekowskiwe can factorize that key01:00
DocScrutinizer05I can already tell you his answer: "we're still thinking. there were more important things"01:00
Palijacekowski, I will look at that key01:00
DocScrutinizer05now, you know the answer he'll send on tuesday, what you gonna do?01:00
jacekowskiwell, do we know physical location of that key01:01
Palijacekowski: 1024bit DSA01:01
DocScrutinizer05"we are thinking" means they don't exactly understand how to proceed01:01
jacekowskican we apply rubberhose cryptoanalysis?01:01
RST38hthermorectal cryptoanalysis you mean?01:02
kerioi feel that maemo could go much better if we had access to a ninja squad to storm the nokia HQ and steal the source code01:02
DocScrutinizer05and "we are thinking2 been exactly their last two answers01:02
kerioDocScrutinizer05: how good do you look in a black ninja suit?01:03
DocScrutinizer05watch my "avatar" on tmo. Do you think I'm one of the guys that need a black ninja siut?01:03
DocScrutinizer05in the "company" wwe have othwer dresscode01:04
DocScrutinizer05if needed, eventually also leather (mostly jacket) - but "the men in black" term been minted for a reason01:05
DocScrutinizer05and plack doesn't imply ninja siut01:06
DocScrutinizer05black* (damn)01:06
DocScrutinizer05honestly, our suggestion to Matti been bogus. a proper fix needs a new cert deployed fro standard key which holds valid for another few years. Simply resigning current repo with SWadm key doesn't really fix stuff01:08
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Palijacekowski, key is DES1 (1024 bit) with SHA1 self signature01:09
DocScrutinizer05since for next change that might be needed we again face same problem that we don't have access to SWadm private key01:09
DocScrutinizer05and I bet Nokia(Matti) came to us asking for that expired-key issue *because* they want to deploy a turksat security update01:10
DocScrutinizer05so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a *roper* fix incl ned standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not needed but that's what Nokia did so far with keys for repos, so they assume it's same deal with SWadm key as well)01:12
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a *proper* fix incl ned standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not nee...01:12
DocScrutinizer05s/ ned / new /01:13
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: so pretty please rethink your suggestions to Matti and adapt them accordingly, so we get a *roper* fix incl new standard cert for SSU/Nokia repo, plus no implied need to install SWadm privkey to production server (which won't happen, and yes it's not need...01:13
PaliDocScrutinizer05, here is link for PR.1.3.1 fiasco image:
Woody14619sigh... OptFS, filesystem corrupt.  Too many errors, trialocated block could not be resolved?  This sounds not good.01:16
ShadowJKSounds like the time I ran fsck on optfs01:17
Woody14619Make a backup first. :)01:17
Woody14619Went to make my montly backup and it errored about 50 files for "stale NFS handle".01:18
Woody14619Which is why I went to fsck in the first place.01:18
Woody14619I'm hoping restoring Feb's backup and overlaying the one I just did on top of it will fix it.01:19
Woody14619Thank the gods for RobbieThe1st and backupmenu....01:19
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sixwheeledbeastShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05: glue didn't work either did reverse drill or making a slot in the head to use a flat screwdriver01:32
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infobotsixwheeledbeast meant: ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05: glue didn't work neither did reverse drill or making a slot in the head to use a flat screwdriver01:33
sixwheeledbeastme thinks it was buggered to start with01:34
ShadowJKI'd lose patience and reverse-HSS drill it01:34
sixwheeledbeasttook the head off with a dremmel and even pliers will not budge it01:34
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: turksat?01:35
SpeedEvilif it was larger, I would suggest welding01:35
sixwheeledbeastat least i can get in to look at the faulty ribbon now.01:35
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* ShadowJK hasn't tried welding so far :-)01:47
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sixwheeledbeastwelding! this isn't an old fiat! :-D01:48
ShadowJK(or alfa romeo, of any age)01:50
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xesunthreaded screw?01:55
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ShadowJKThe original issue was that hte screw didn't budge01:56
ShadowJKthe head snapped off01:56
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ShadowJKhe tried to glue the head back on01:56
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xesa bit of epossidic glue would fix without damage the parts01:58
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xesepoxy glue (bi-component)02:05
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DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: turktrust ;-D02:07
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: one lousy screw borked is no disaster on screen02:09
sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: nice to here, stud is still in there so not expecting much movement with the other five screws in02:11
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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: you could drill it out, fill the hole with epoxy, and drill a new hole with thread after that (or without thread, depending on type of screw)02:16
DocScrutinizer05or you simply ignore the "problem"02:16
sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: IYO is it worth it?02:17
sixwheeledbeastoh well, finished reading meeting logs. I will think about the screw "problem" in the morning. gn all.02:23
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Woody14619Yay!  My N900 booted again!  Backupmenu saves the day, again...03:08
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DocScrutinizer05for those who don't follow tmo without somebody pointing them to something (like I usually do):
RST38hShuffling chairs on the Titanic?03:49
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shawnjefferson22I just posted a thread on tmo about this, but is soappy python module available for n900?03:54
RST38h...Methods of transportation include the US Postal system, transporting it by hand to an office representing the charity, or sending each bill individually with an avian organism.04:14
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ManoftheSea_Thanks Doc.  I guess I should register as part of the Community.04:56
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Estel_divVerent,  for photos and other sensitive thing, I use truecrypt on N90005:05
Estel_separate partition05:05
Estel_+ startup script at boot time which asks for passwords and keyfiles05:05
Estel_then, addressbook, mail things etc were moved to truecrypt partition and symlinked05:06
Estel_sms database05:06
Estel_generally, everything worth keeping private05:06
Estel_now, N900 is so kind, that after boot, it wait a minute or so before polling things like addressbook (unless you open it manually)05:06
Estel_so you have plenty of time to fill password and keys05:07
Estel_if not done in those minute (or two or three, cant remember) hildon split some pop-up errors, then, everything act like on fresh device - no contacts, bo sms, no mails, no anything05:07
Estel_new ones are saved for runtime, but dissapear after reboot - unless I provide password for truecrypt, which of course bring back my things on place, automagically. Very conveinent05:08
Estel_CSSU cam, (by my suggestion, btw ;) ) use config file that allow you to provide path where photos should be saved05:08
Estel_so videos and photos went to truecrypt partition too05:09
Estel_divVerent,  ^^^05:09
infobotit has been said that truecrypt is
Estel_IMo very conveinent way. Everything explained there, including how to make sure partition gets unmounted in cause of thievery05:10
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Estel_(getting rid of lockcode require at least one reboot, so automounted partition get unmounted)05:10
Estel_now as for regular system security, there are things fools do to have password requiment for root, but as said, no shadow, so it's worth shit05:12
Estel_and rootsh, while seems like broken concept, in practice just work, without unneeded complications that doesn't give any *real* security05:12
Estel_OTOH, your point about browser exploit is interesting and I don't care if N900 is unlikely the target05:13
Estel_if something can be made better/more secure, it's worth it05:13
Estel_but even in this case fool's messing with duplicating root security are futile, as no shadow (I know, there is more than that, but it pretty sums it to conclusion).05:14
Estel_kerio,  any ideas, how one could harden it against browser exploits, leaving alone poor HAM that is so broken, that I would never regret getting rid of it completely?05:15
Estel_every 1 is asleep, it seems ;) have good night, folks.05:16
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DocScrutinizer05~rot13 Estel_05:37
DocScrutinizer05fools argue like "if something can be made better/more secure, it's worth it" + "root security are futile, as no shadow"05:38
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ManoftheSeaPersonally, I'd prefer LUKS to Truecrypt05:57
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ManoftheSeaIt'd be more secure to launch your phone into the sun.05:57
DocScrutinizer05security is measured in "time needed to break in"05:59
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DocScrutinizer05security is measured in "time needed to break in"06:01
DocScrutinizer05and sufficient security is defined as "effort to break barriers is higher than value of the assets protected by those barriers"06:02
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DocScrutinizer05I dunno about the perceived effort needed by those who rant about useless root password, to bruteforce teh root password from the hash in /etc/password. I also have no idea about the assets those guys carry on their phone. For me a proper root password is not only reasonable to have but actually sufficient to secure my assets I have on N90006:05
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DocScrutinizer05hmm, should we discuss a bit about further amendments needed to either HiFo bylaws or council statutes?07:07
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Macerwow. my lumia 900 got up to $152 on ebay07:39
Macerthat is far more than i expected heh07:39
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eddybpleease help me nuke maemo-optify-runonce10:33
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eddybevery time I upgrade or install anything, aptitude tries to install that package first10:34
eddyband guess what it does? instant shutdown10:34
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eddybI can't remove it either, because it kills the process installing it, thus corrupting its own state10:37
eddybdpkg: error processing maemo-optify-runonce (--remove):10:37
eddybPackage is in a very bad inconsistent state - you should reinstall it before attempting a removal.10:41
eddyb(sorry for the delay, it's not exactly easy to copy-remove_newline-paste on this..10:42
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eddybthis worked dpkg --force-remove-reinstreq -P maemo-optify-runonce10:47
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eddybaand I want to install mp-fremantle-community-pr which PreDepends: maemo-optify-runonce10:53
eddyband I'm also plagued by hash mismatch on the "official" repos ( I think)10:58
thedead1440eddyb: you can either use mirrors or the new official repos at
infobotmirror is probably, or - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new11:00
infobothmm... rmo-new is do `echo >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root, or
eddybI like the hostname hack :D11:01
eddybthedead1440: thanks, that solves the hash problem, but I still can't use cssu-testing-thumb properly because of maemo-optify-runonce :(11:02
thedead1440eddyb: np; why not install it now that you have removed it properly?11:03
eddybas I said, it instantly shuts down the system when installing11:03
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eddybit kills apt-worker before it can be marked as installed11:04
thedead1440how the heck did you end up in trouble with it in the first place?11:05
eddybmp-fremantle-community-pr pre-depends on it11:06
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eddybsweet, at least I got node.js on this :D11:07
eddybweird, the maemo-optify-runonce description looks innocent11:09
eddybit says it just moves files11:10
eddybbrb this might shutdown11:10
thedead1440ask kerio about it11:11
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eddybI tried renaming /usr/bin/killall, that made no difference11:19
thedead1440why would you do that?11:20
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eddybthedead1440: it was killing processes, I thought maybe it ended up killing something vital that would trigger a shutdown11:20
eddybkillall browserd as root triggers a shutdown IIRC11:21
thedead1440killall is linked to busybox11:21
thedead1440you don't want to be screwing busybox up11:21
eddybI renamed the link11:21
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: hey! Is there any way to upload packages to the new "test" autobuilder? I tried GARAGE-USERNAME@
DocScrutinizer05I think you need to upload to drop11:23
DocScrutinizer05not to repo11:24
thomasjfoxat least ssh complains the IP address changed - that's a good sign in this case :)11:25
DocScrutinizer05anyway it's not exactly recommended to use this for production yet, since we might need to do a final rsync immediately before switch-over, and that would nuke all your stuff11:25
eddybso I'm looking in the preinstall for maemo-optify-runonce11:25
thomasjfoxno worries, I just want to test if the build works at all.11:26
eddyb# Here we have to reboot - before starting SSU pkg upgrade HAM stops & kills most of applications, system is in non-functional state anyway. Reboot nicely - with display blanking and led fading off.11:26
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thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: "scp: /var/www/extras-devel/incoming-builder/fremantle/: No such file or directory"11:26
DocScrutinizer05try garage then11:27
eddybbefore the reboot, dokill "hildon-application-manager" "TERM"; dokill "apt-worker" "TERM"11:27
DocScrutinizer05I can't recall what the guys did for upload11:27
thedead1440eddyb: so after reboot it should continue the process maybe you just have to be patient11:27
eddybit doesn't even reboot11:28
thomasjfoxthanks anyway :)11:28
DocScrutinizer05garage is 26, btw11:28
eddybit uses pidof and kill, but that's not the reason it shuts down11:28
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DocScrutinizer05((<eddyb> aand I want to install mp-fremantle-community-pr))11:30
DocScrutinizer05I don't think that's any recommended11:30
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: 26 as in .26 I guess. Just seems to hang without any transfer happening11:30
eddybDocScrutinizer05: I want cssu-testing-thumb11:30
eddybthedead1440: it's supposed to show me a banner saying that I need at least 150MB of free space in /home. but that's commented in the script :/11:31
thomasjfoxalright, looks like it's not ready for prime time yet :)11:31
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: ask jacekowski or pali11:31
* thomasjfox summons jacekowski11:31
DocScrutinizer05we encountered that "scp: /var/www/extras-devel/incoming-builder/fremantle/: No such file or directory" and the guys worked around it or fixed it or whatever, I didn't follow11:32
thomasjfoxI guess is right, just the path will be different11:32
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DocScrutinizer05I dunno if it's a NFS mount or whatever11:32
DocScrutinizer05might be11:33
thomasjfoxbecause if scp says "no such file or directory" for the remote host, then authentication was successful11:33
DocScrutinizer05lemme check11:33
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eddybreturn `/bin/busybox stat -ft "$1" | /bin/busybox awk '{print int($5*$9/(1024*1024)) }'`11:35
eddybbut stat -ft /home displays two lines... and the free space for the second, blank line, is 011:35
eddybdamn thing is broken11:36
DocScrutinizer05dafaq, sorry!!
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eddybdid they even test the script? it looks like this wasn't supposed to work, ever11:37
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thedead1440eddyb: i don't remember people on the TMO thread complaining...11:40
eddybI am telling you nokia fucked up11:40
eddybnow, I think I can hijack stat to return the right line, all the time, without the second blank line11:40
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amospallasometimes, when connecting to wlan, n900 says "could not connect, try again?" if I tell it to connect wlan another time, wlancond goes 100% cpu11:43
amospallais that a known problem?11:43
eddybhaha plugged in USB saved me from reboot11:44
eddybnow I can just ignore the stupid thing11:45
eddybthe stat trick didn't work, though :/11:46
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: did you try first time ~45min ago to use builder?11:47
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eddybI just have to wait 7 seconds and ignore the dpkg preinstall error11:49
eddybthanks guys, at least my N900 is now in a more manageable state :)11:50
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thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: yep11:55
DocScrutinizer05hehe, you killed blade-b11:55
thomasjfoxFunnily it didn't even upload anything11:56
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DocScrutinizer05what was first thing you did? could you share the cmdline in private /query ?11:56
DocScrutinizer05possibly with result/diagnostic-output11:57
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: I'll just copy my terminal output from the moment I started, it's not that much11:58
DocScrutinizer05sure, pastebin it and post me the URL in a /wuery11:58
DocScrutinizer05query even11:58
DocScrutinizer05sorry, no DCC11:59
thomasjfoxdidn't want to put it on a pastebin...11:59
thomasjfoxI'll upload it somewhere private12:00
DocScrutinizer05or send per mail12:00
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: did the high load on blade-b fix "itself" automatically? Or this some kind of watchdog reset it?12:07
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DocScrutinizer05nah, we had to push the button12:07
thomasjfoxI could try to repeat my steps and then we can check when/how it dies12:09
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DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: we're still investigating12:20
DocScrutinizer05not even sure if it's been you, though "L.J.Gibbs: I don't believe in chance"12:21
thomasjfoxlike I said, I could try again12:27
thomasjfoxthen we know for sure12:27
thomasjfoxbut when you asked me if I tried it ~45min ago, my uptime showed 47min12:28
DocScrutinizer05well, everything up again, go ahead12:28
thomasjfoxI just got up to try a rockbox build :)12:28
DocScrutinizer05as I said, try IP of new drop.m.o12:28
thomasjfoxwhich is it?12:28
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thomasjfoxah, .2512:29
thomasjfoxyes, uploading!12:30
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MrPingu_Hi folks!12:35
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DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: builder active12:54
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divVerent04:14:28           Estel_ | but even in this case fool's messing with duplicating root security are futile, as no shadow (I know, there is more than that, but it pretty sums it to conclusion).13:07
divVerentEstel_: actually "fixable"13:07
divVerentset an invalid password hash for root, and ONLY log in via ssh with key ;)13:07
divVerentanother thing... 04:14:28           Estel_ | but even in this case fool's messing with duplicating root security are futile, as no shadow (I know, there is more than that, but it pretty sums it to conclusion).13:08
divVerenthas anyone mirrored
divVerentI would like to get the SDK VM images, as scratchbox and the SDK apparently only run on 32bit Debian-based distros, and I have a 64bit Arch13:08
divVerent (all I REALLY want is a foo2hp binary...)13:10
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infobot[mirror], or - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new13:17
infobotskeiron is probably the semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources:
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divVerentDocScrutinizer05: hm... none seem to have mirrored the VM images13:30
divVerentskeiron ends up pointing me to
divVerentbut the link again goes to
RzRthen we should make them again adding latest scratchbox and targets13:34
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer05: looks like the build succeeded :) cool!13:36
thomasjfoxyep :) in December it failed with some weird error13:37
thomasjfoxalso I didn't get any build log email13:37
divVerentor can anyone compile foo2hp for me? want to get my printer to work from the N90013:37
divVerentsetting up a new VM and then all the SDK stuff would take days... too bad the Debian binaries don't work due to N900 having a too old libc13:38
thomasjfoxI'll try a diablo build, too13:38
DocScrutinizer05I don't think diablo builder is even enabled13:38
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divVerentmy goal would BTW not be using cups, but just the foo2hp wrapper called by a trivial "" script13:38
DocScrutinizer05for sure we haven't tested it13:39
thomasjfoxlet's see what happens13:39
divVerentWAIT... actually, MAYBE debian oldstable's foo2zjs works...13:39
divVerentit still fails to dpkg -i due to wrong libc13:39
divVerentbut it SEEMS like the binary runs anyway13:39
divVerent foo2zjs depends on libc6 (>= 2.7-1); however:13:39
divVerent  Version of libc6 on system is 2.5.1-1eglibc27+0m5.13:40
divVerentis there a simple way to tell dpkg to not care and assume it's configured anyway?13:40
DocScrutinizer05was there some --force or somesuchß13:40
divVerentnot really... I tried --force-depends13:42
divVerentwhich SEEMS to work13:42
divVerentbut then apt-get -f install wants to remove it13:42
divVerentlooks like I probably will rather have to extract it to a subdir of /opt instead13:42
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divVerentfor reference, I used foo2zjs_20070718dfsg-9_armel.deb... its output LOOKS like the right command stream, but I'll know for sure once my son is awake and I can turn on the printer13:46
divVerentthe version from 2009 does not work, missing glibc symbol13:46
divVerent - and this would be my "lpr script<"13:47
thomasjfoxis a donation to the hildon foundation eligible for tax deduction?13:53
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thomasjfoxhmm since the hildon foundation is a non-profit organization, donations -should- be eligble for tax deduction. I'll give it a try.14:00
thomasjfoxonly thing seems to be that some German tax offices don't accept the paypal transfer for it. Let's see if they act up next year :o)14:04
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divVerentyes, this foo2hp binary works14:21
thomasjfoxnow you can print the Internets!14:21
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XATRIXHi guys, any idea how can i initiate skype video call from my handset ?14:25
XATRIXI can only start IM or voice call14:26
XATRIXBut sometimes, after a few video calls, i can initiate it by myself14:26
XATRIXBut i can't track it , how did i do it14:26
DocScrutinizer05thomasjfox: no, and actually HiFo didn't even bother to update their donations list since 6 weeks. *I* would think twice14:26
thomasjfoxworst think that can happen is that they don't recognize it. Since the amount is below $100, it won't kill me.14:28
DocScrutinizer05worst thing that can happen is that HiFo drools over the money while techstaff pays HDD from own pocket since dealing with HiFo is simply not worth the hassle14:29
XATRIXAny idea about my problem?14:30
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-09 11:36:50] <warfare> Something got stuck with the disks.14:31
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-09 11:37:41] <warfare> all vms couldn't write to disk after ~9:45 or so.14:31
DocScrutinizer05hw issue?14:32
DocScrutinizer05I had hoped those HDD wait til we get some companions for them before they act up14:32
thomasjfoxwhat about the "donations" link here:
thomasjfoxI thought it sends money to HiFo14:33
DocScrutinizer05it does14:33
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thomasjfoxbut you think it's a bad idea? It's too late anyway, I already donated...14:33
thomasjfoxI wrote them a message, let's see what happens14:35
DocScrutinizer05I'd think twice to donate to an entity that doesn't even bother to keep their donors updated about state of funding14:35
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DocScrutinizer05I'd guess it's not exactly the first message they get14:36
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DocScrutinizer05actually blame *me* for not already editing
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thomasjfoxbank account status is listed here:
thomasjfoxlooks like the money is currently frozen at Paypal14:40
thomasjfox(if I understand the text correctly)14:41
DocScrutinizer05whatever, seems they don't get their stuff sorted. That's why I didn't even bother to *ask* for them paying the needed HDD14:44
DocScrutinizer05actually thanks to a great community with lots of support in non-monetary, and thanks to a nice guy at Nokia, we didn't see any payments except that vBulletin license from HiFo funds14:45
jacekowskito be honest, i think vBulletin is a mistake14:46
DocScrutinizer05I can't honestly suggest handing more money to HiFo to let it ripe there14:46
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DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: why?14:48
DocScrutinizer05it saved us days and weeks of time14:48
DocScrutinizer05and was pretty "cheap"14:48
DocScrutinizer05we didn't feel like migarting to something different during migration. I'm not Dawg14:49
DocScrutinizer05Yo Dawg, heard youlike migrations, so we made migrations during migrations, so you can headdesk all day long14:50
jacekowskiit's not userfriendly14:50
jacekowskiand it does a lot of things differently14:50
DocScrutinizer05so would you be the one to port stuff and write new plugins for any other sw ?14:51
DocScrutinizer05we had other more important things on our plate14:52
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DocScrutinizer05and still have14:52
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: we discussed it and common sense been it's not worth the effort to safe a 180 bucks and get something new right now14:54
DocScrutinizer05if somebody from larger community is willing to port it to something "better", we're willing to support such effort/project by offering a VM and doing tests with life data14:55
DocScrutinizer05in 2 months or 314:55
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tx0hhow can i switch the usb mode from pc to mass storage and vice versa16:39
DocScrutinizer05there are two scripts16:39
tx0hok, i first need to * and then *-enable.sh16:41
keriothose won't enable pcsuite though16:44
kerioalso, i'm not sure the ui follows that16:44
keriopcsuite has its own scrips16:44
kerioiirc, they're pcsuite-*16:45
tx0halso enable and disable, right?16:46
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* tx0h nods16:48
tx0hhmmm.. my linux desktop sees sdb and sdc but i can't mount them16:50
kerioyou have to mount sdb as a single partition16:50
keriosdc should have a partition table16:50
kerioor viceversa16:50
DocScrutinizer05blkid might help, iirc16:51
tx0hboth have no partition table (fdisK: unable to open /dev/sdb: No medium found)16:51
tx0hsame with sdc16:52
tx0hbut syslog says they are attached16:52
tx0has sg2 and sg316:52
DocScrutinizer05hmm, so obviously not sdb16:54
kerioi blame systemd16:54
DocScrutinizer05fair enough I guess16:55
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DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.233325] scsi 8:0:0:0: Direct-Access     Nokia    N900              031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 217:01
DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.233557] sd 8:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg5 type 017:02
DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.234526] scsi 8:0:0:1: Direct-Access     Nokia    N900              031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 217:02
DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.234772] sd 8:0:0:1: Attached scsi generic sg6 type 017:02
DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.241900] sd 8:0:0:0: [sde] Attached SCSI removable disk17:02
DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn kernel: [1586087.244140] sd 8:0:0:1: [sdf] Attached SCSI removable disk17:02
DocScrutinizer05Mar  9 16:01:04 saturn dbus-daemon[879]: **** ADDING /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.8/2-1.8:1.0/host8/target8:0:0/8:0:0:0/block/sde17:02
tx0hyepp, looks similar. after a nokia boot i can mount sdb (which is /home/user/MyApps)17:03
DocScrutinizer05anyway it needed selecting MSM from menu before my desktop showed them devices as available (well *after* the above quote)17:04
DocScrutinizer05kerio: you haven't seen spam yet. that friggin DBUS shit in my syslog is true spam17:05
keriogotta love the linux desktop17:06
DocScrutinizer05the above 7 lines dissolve in that17:06
kerioi heard it's its year17:06
tx0hMSM from menu??17:06
DocScrutinizer05plugging in that N900 created like >100 loglines in syslog17:07
DocScrutinizer05most of them DBUS spam:  Mar  9 16:03:24 saturn dbus-daemon[879]: **** CHANGED /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.0/usb2/2-1/2-1.8/2-1.8:1.0/host8/target8:0:0/8:0:0:1/block/sdf17:07
tx0hwhat is MSM in which menu?17:08
DocScrutinizer05mass storage mode17:08
DocScrutinizer05in the menu that popps up17:08
kerioah yes, requires a device file as a parameter17:08
tx0hah, you mean the dialog17:08
kerioso those two are two LUNs that don't do anything17:08
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tx0hoh, device file? lile /dev/mmcblk0 ?17:09
kerioit'd have to be /dev/mmcblk0p117:09
keriobut you have to umount MyDocs first17:09
kerioor Bad Things will happen17:10
tx0hso you really give the partition and not the whole disk17:12
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tx0hwhy does frozen cake takes so long to thaw17:16
DocScrutinizer05because you can't wait to eat it17:17
tx0hthats true. i can't wait17:18
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tx0hwhat things can be done in pc mode?17:27
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Macermy lumia 900 went for 150 on ebay. that was far more than i thought :)17:33
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Macer:) an N9 is cheaper than an N817:43
tx0hyes, windows is more expensive17:44
thedead1440...and a N8 is cheaper than a N900. so? It depends on geographical areas...17:45
tx0hi just got my first usb-fine n900 for 60eur17:46
tx0hlast week17:46
tx0his this price ok?17:48
thedead1440tx0h: its a bargain if the hw is fine ;)17:48
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tx0hit works like my other one but with usb port :-)17:49
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Macerwow... yeah you're right17:52
Macerbut i just thought it strange since they are same models17:52
Macerie: N8 to N917:52
Macerthen again i suppose at the time they were more parallel than anything17:53
Maceri wouldn't mind getting an n9 just to get one17:53
tx0hn8 hasnt a keyboard and only 16gb17:53
Macern9 doesn't have a keyboard either ;)17:53
tx0haeh, n917:53
tx0hi meant17:54
Maceryeah :(17:54
thedead1440Macer: it all depends on location and sellers. I just did a simple search now and N8 buy it now is going for even $110 while most are around the $240-$270 range. The cheapest N9 for buy it now starts at $24017:54
Macerthat's its biggest drawback17:54
Macerthedead1440: oh i just looked it up on amazon17:54
tx0hthey should give us a N90017:54
Macerebay is good for some things but amazon usually has a fair representation of the price17:54
tx0hback, with better usb soldering17:54
thedead1440yeah we mortals here in Singapore have to depend on ebay since Amazon doesn't service us well :(17:54
Macerouch lol17:55
Macerbeen to singapore. awesome place.17:55
thedead1440also wasn't amazon the one where N8s were going for $200 or $250 around 8months after release?17:55
Macernot sure i didn't keep up with them much17:56
Maceri was just looking at 808s and N9s17:56
thedead1440it was rumoured that offer helped push up N8 sales17:56
Macernaturally N8s popped up in the N9 search17:56
tx0hsingapore is, where the unpaid taxes go, right?17:56
Maceryeah heh17:56
thedead1440ah 808 that's one you should get just for that gigantic sensor17:56
thedead1440tx0h: hehe17:56
Macertx0h: no i thin kthat's switzerland still17:56
Maceralthough the swiss punked out17:56
Macerand gave accts to the US17:56
Macerwtf? :)17:56
thedead1440singapore beat the swiss ;)17:56
Macerafter that the swiss probably lost half its banking industry17:57
Macerits main draw was that they were strictly confidential regardless of circumstances17:57
Macerand they caved to US politicial pressure17:57
thedead1440there was an EU delegation who came down here with some warrants and notices to search account details of EU citizens and they were flatly denied and told to enjoy their stay and leave soon after :D17:57
Macerthat's awesome17:57
Macerand singapore is a huge messing with them is out of the question17:58
Maceryou sanction singapore then the dow will drop like 10,000 points the next day lol17:58
thedead1440also Singapore bailed out a number of banks so you don't mess with your paymasters ;)17:59
Maceryeah that too haha17:59
Macerbut yeah.. singapore was awesome17:59
Macernot nearly as bad as people make it sound17:59
Macerlike spitting gum on the ground will get your tongue chopped off or something... i mean i didn't test it but i know i didn't see much "strictness"18:00
thedead1440its bad for the politics, heat and damn expensive cars18:00
Macerit reminded me of asian vegas :)18:00
thedead1440its a S$500 fine for littering although you don't get caught easily18:00
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Maceryeah but i'm not much of a litterbug heh18:00
thedead1440and chewing gum was banned for >10 years. even though allowed only if you registered with your ID at point of purchase18:00
Macerwe have fines for that here too but it is never enforced18:00
Macerlol... i didn't chew any gum ;) i just got some breath mints18:01
Macerwhen i went the exchange rate was awesome too18:01
Maceri was there in 0618:01
thedead1440ah you must have got i think 1.60 to a US dollar at that time18:02
tx0hjersey, the private isle of the queen. thats where you can put your money :-)18:03
Maceri think more than that to be honest18:04
Macerit was almost 2:118:04
thedead14402:1 nah impossible18:04
Macerwell... i considered cost was less as well ;)18:04
thedead1440the worst it has ever been was ~2003 at 1.7818:04
thedead1440its at 1.25 now btw ;)18:05
Macer$1.66  (January 2, 2006)18:06
Macerthat's about the time i was there18:06
Maceri'm surprised the S$ isn't beating the US$18:07
Macerwe are in such bad shape18:07
thedead1440nah the govt won't allow it to beat the US$; you don't want to chase away Exxon and the likes18:07
Macerit's amazing the world keeps its head in the sand about the state of the US economy18:07
Macerit is an absolute nightmare here .. and our govt is skewing the unemployment numbers to make things look ok18:08
Macerit's like soviet russia18:08
Macerthey said it is down nationally to 7.6% i believe, but those numbers don't reflect the people who have run out of unemployment benefits and simply gave up on looking anymore18:08
thedead1440well its the USA; everyone has interests in it not dying off so its artificially propped up in a way18:09
Macerso in reality it could be as high as 15% lol18:09
Maceryeah exactly. but eventually it has to come to a fall :)18:09
Maceryou can't keep acting like enron forever18:09
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Macernot only that but our government doesn't show any relation to increase in welfare entitlements vs unemployment rates18:10
Macermeaning you don't see those who stopped looking swapping over to welfare18:10
Macerif you were to lump it all together you'd probably have around 30-40% of the US being "poor"18:10
thedead1440yeah its a sad state of affairs18:10
Macermeaning our govt is paying for roughly that many people to survive18:11
thedead1440unfortunately its the middle and lower groups who are squeezed18:11
Maceralthough our version of survival is far different than real poor people in poor countries lol18:11
Macerwe have fat poor people18:11
Macerin most other countries they'd have died off by now :)18:11
Macerhonestly it isn't someone filing for welfare that gets on my nerves18:12
Macerit happens. it is meant for just that occasion18:12
Macerit is the abuse of it where you have individuals who have the cradle to grave mentality and are born on welfare and stay on it until they die18:13
thedead1440well that happens in a welfare state18:13
thedead1440things always have pros and cons18:13
Maceri have no problem with anybody who uses welfare for a short period until the economy bounces back etc.. like i said.. it is exactly how it is meant to be used18:13
Maceri know someone who had to do that18:13
thedead1440here you don't have any welfare. All welfare is the 20% of salary you paid to your own fund monthly and the govt decides how much you can take out of it at which time of your life. So no govt welfare but your own money you are limited on its options18:14
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Macerthat is how social security is supposed to work here ;)18:16
Macerthat didn't work either18:16
Macerthey had a story of some old woman who put in $10,000 and has so far received like $100+K18:16
Macerso it's just a giant ponzi scheme18:17
thedead1440that's cool18:17
Macerand we have a giant chunk of our population coming to age18:17
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Macerso we are about to witness a social security "run on the bank"18:17
GeneralAntillesToxic incentives18:17
GeneralAntillesRoad to hell and all that.18:17
Macerso now another program that will fail :)18:17
Maceralthough it has failed already anyways18:17
Macermy favorite govt debacle is the USPO18:18
Macerthey make the post office pay for a pension that has absolutely nothing to do with postal workers :)18:18
GeneralAntillesYou don't "put in" money into social secuirty18:18
GeneralAntillesit's an income transfer scheme, no more.18:18
GeneralAntillesPension bombs are going to collapse California18:18
MacerGeneralAntilles: yes. seems so.18:18
MacerIL too18:19
MacerCA and IL have giant state economies .. there is no way they should be broke.. and pensions are the reason why18:19
Macerwe have people who are able to triple and quadruple up on pensions18:19
Macerreceiving more money retired than they ever received working .. on top of other benefits and entitlements18:19
thedead1440wtf? that's one seriously broken system18:20
SpeedEvillinking payments strictly to contributions has problems.18:20
SpeedEvilfor example, what about someone who gets into a no-fault accident at age 17, and is unlikely to ever be able to work again18:21
Macerheh yeah18:23
Macerwe had a recent article abouta guy who went to the chicago police academy and something happened.. i can't remember what18:23
Macerhe has collected nearly $500K in disability pay over the span of 10 years for being a cadet for roughly 1 week :)18:24
Macerit is absolutely insane18:24
Macerthe problem is that the US has an overabundance of people looking to get over on the systems in place18:24
Macerthere is no honor because we have the "me now" mentality.. nobody cares about the society as a whole18:24
Macernot even the politicians ;)18:25
Macerwaiting for this guy to pay for me to send out this lumia 90018:25
Macerso glad i swapped over to tmobile prepaid for $30/month.. :)18:25
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GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, biggest problem in the US is that welfare is handled at the federal level18:39
GeneralAntillesIt'd be similar to the EU handling welfare for every member state18:39
GeneralAntillesIt's a mess and, being government, there's no incentive to do it usefully or efficiently.18:39
GeneralAntillesMacer, problem isn't so much the people, but the systems in place that enable toxic behavior.18:40
GeneralAntilleshell, incentivize it.18:40
Maceragreed heh18:42
Macerworking at mcdonalds for a poor mother with no baby daddy would probably mean like a $20K/year reduction in "pay"18:43
GeneralAntillesThere was an interesting article recently looking at marginal tax rates for single mothers in the UK18:45
GeneralAntillesThere's effective no difference in income between no job and a £50k salary18:45
GeneralAntillesMake marginally less at the £50k.18:46
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tx0hok, i made a tar of /home thru nfs. can i repartition the internal mmc now and play the tar back with no problem?18:52
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Estel_hey, hey, divVerent, actually some very interesting thing you're doing18:57
Estel_was your printer connected via hostmode, or via wifi?18:57
Estel_if the latter, why not cups? One of my task for near future was to make N900 print into printers connected by USB, and cups via easy debian was the only way that seemed to work18:58
Estel_very interesting things you're messing with, when it goes to that debian things18:58
Estel_BTW to make dpkg GTFO, you need to repackage it with "faking" dependency to match maemos glibc18:59
Estel_if it works with old glibc, just pretending to need never one, it's OK to fix that dependency, and even upload it to maemo -devel18:59
Estel_as for other things, like your idea of giving wrong hash and logging root only via local ssh, quite interesting ;)19:00
Estel_but what if yoy need to launch something GUI'fied via root, for some debug purpose or whatsnot?19:00
* tx0h sighs19:01
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divVerentEstel_: wifi, plugged via ethernet into the AP19:41
divVerenti do not want to waste RAM on cupsd when not using it19:41
divVerentas for launching GUI stuff via ssh: ssh -X or -Y19:42
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* sixwheeledbeast puts a pizza in the oven and is reminded how great cooktimer is :)20:06
tx0hn900 - the cooking helper20:07
sixwheeledbeastprops to ade20:10
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Macertx0h: lol20:19
Macersixwheeledbeast: you know they sell an egg timer for like $1? :)20:20
Maceror does the n900 shut your oven off?20:20
tx0hvia bluetooth20:21
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Maceri was going to say wifi but i guess bt works as well20:21
Macerremotely after leaving for the store forgetting you had something in the oven heh20:22
tx0hbut with IR you can boil your eggs directly20:22
Maceri usually use the built in death ray for that.. concentrated gamma rays are far faster than IR20:25
tx0halso true20:25
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sixwheeledbeastMacer: you can't time three different things with a eggtimer20:29
sixwheeledbeastMacer: also cooktimer is FOSS20:29
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tx0h please help me with my repartitioning thing20:35
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sixwheeledbeasttx0h: repartitioning?20:41
tx0hyes, the mmc20:41
tx0hi like to have more for opt20:41
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tx0hi made a tar of /home thru nfs. can i repartition the internal mmc now and play the tar back with no problem?20:42
sixwheeledbeasttx0h: never done it but have you read
tx0hthey don't write much about backup and play it back. i just like to know if a simple tar cf / tar xf will do the job20:50
tx0hi know how to delete/create partitions and create filesystems20:51
keriotx0h: yep20:53
kerioi suggest using rescueOS20:53
tx0htar isn't good enough?20:54
tx0hi already have a 2.8gb tar20:54
kerio/home isn't even big enough for that20:55
keriowhat did you tar20:55
kerioyou probably tarred MyDocs too20:55
tx0h /home20:55
kerioyeah, you don't want to tar /home, especially not on a live system20:55
tx0ha backup of all data on mmc (escept swap)20:56
kerioyou want to tar the contents of the second partition of the emmc, when the system isn't booted20:56
kerioand then, *separately*, MyDocs if you want to20:56
tx0hbut /home has /opt, these are all the programs i've installed20:56
tx0hand i can extract them with tar xf bla.tar home/opt home/user20:57
tx0hand sure i want my cached maptiles back in MyDocs :-)20:58
tx0hand don't i need to mkfs for the /home partition?21:00
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tx0hi don't see why i can't just extract the tar file under /home21:05
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* tx0h sighs21:08
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keriobecause /home/user/MyDocs is a mountpoint21:25
tx0hwell, but i can mount it before i extract the tar archive21:26
tx0hwhich files are so complicated that i can't tar them in a running environment?21:27
nox-anything that changes at runtime21:29
tx0hcan you name some?21:29
nox-not really21:29
nox-its a known issue with backups on any syste,21:29
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tx0hin ~/.cache is nothing of interest21:30
kerioalso, i'm not entirely sure there's nothing that changes in /opt21:31
tx0hi roughly looked through all dirs under /home and can't find nothing critical21:33
keriook, then why the fuck are you asking us21:34
tx0hbecause i could oversee something21:34
keriolike the fact that you made the image while the system was running21:35
tx0hand 'just don't do it because there is a convention' is not a real good reason21:35
tx0hi just like to know: hey, there is this or that file open, when you write the backup back you broke this and that.21:36
keriohm, tracker does his thing in ~21:39
tx0hwell, i think i will go for it. i guess i can't brick with that21:42
Estel_tx0h,  while I would recommend doing it in live system, I sympatize with your "lets do it and see what heppens, as there is no technical proof that it won't work"21:50
Estel_(especially, that it's not my system :P)21:51
Estel_just tell us how it ended, Ok? I suspect you'll be allright21:51
Estel_for future, not including mountpoints in backup speed things up, especially, if you may have - again, in future- much more thing in mydocs21:51
tx0hwell, actually i struggle with unmounting /opt21:51
Estel_no much reason to include it in casual backup21:51
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Estel_during runtime of hildon?21:52
Estel_dont do that21:52
Estel_just exclude thing you dont want from backup21:52
Estel_btw, never heard of backupmenu? :P21:52
Estel_it is program that would do all of it for you21:52
tx0hsure, but i don't know if it supports nfs21:52
Estel_where do you have nfs21:52
tx0hon my desktop21:53
Estel_backupmenu doesn't have anything to do with your desktop21:53
Estel_it backups your root and home to mydocs or sd card21:53
tx0hthats why i don't use it21:53
Estel_on device21:53
Estel_no desktop involved21:53
Estel_well, any reason for not using sd card to store backup and restore it later? ;)21:54
tx0hi don't have a sd card. and backupmenu didn't support nfs21:54
Estel_so backup to mydocs and move file to desktop, later21:54
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tx0hbut i have a backup already21:54
Estel_btw backupmenu support whatever you mod it to support, I've included ext4 for my personal use21:54
Estel_so why unmounting opt for a life of you?21:55
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  managed to get rid of screw in screen?21:55
Estel_I had same problem with perfectly circular screw once, and no left drill at hand, so could share experiences if needed.21:55
Estel_tx0h,  what you want to do is get backupmenu, and either do it's backup or - if you want to use one backup you have already - enable backupmenu's mass storage mode...21:57
Estel_which export all partitions, including mmcblk0p2, to your deskto21:57
Estel_there, using gparted or whatever, change partition layout21:57
Estel_if you're wise boy, you have backupmenu backup and mydocs backuped separately, so you can, instead of time-consuming resizing, just create new partition table on device21:58
Estel_with any layout you feel fancy21:58
Estel_I have 7 partitions on eMMC ;)21:58
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Estel_then you just restore backup and everything is done21:59
Estel_this way I use to repartition one N900 using no desktop, just another N90021:59
Estel_using easy debian's gparted and hostmode21:59
Estel_I even use modified backupmenu for migrating to ext4 home at the same time22:00
Estel_I replace backupmenu files with ones that have all my mkfs time and mountime optimizations, then, I modify mount-opts and genfstab.awk to support ext4 (during runtime of device with ext3, as it's important on boot only)22:01
tx0hwith backupmenu i can edit the partitions of /dev/mmcblk0 ??22:01
tx0hon my desktop?22:01
Estel_then I reboot into backupmenu, do backup (that include files for mount with ext4, as they were modified before reboot), connect device to another device and create new partition table, then, I restore backup using backupmenu22:02
Estel_10 minutes and device repartitioned + filesystem for home changed, without involving desktop at all, yet, still using nice gui tools for creating partition layout22:02
Estel_tx0h,  yes22:02
tx0hand i can mount all the partitions on my desktop?22:02
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Estel_well, without backupmenu you can do it to, but editing mmcblk0p2 during device runtime with X and hildon and things would be catastrophic22:03
Estel_tx0h,  yes22:03
Estel_absolutely all partitions22:03
tx0hi tried that before but i just could mount MyDocs22:03
Estel_there is option "mass storage mode" for read only or for read and write in backupmenu, whoich safely exports all partitions as mass storage22:03
Estel_safely, because it's not regular maemo runtime, so you can mess with mmcblk0p2 too22:03
Estel_never heard about any problems with it, so i suspect user-error ;)22:04
Estel_also, be sure to use linux on desktoop, as windoze won't know what to do with ext home22:04
Estel_even less let you create new partition table, properly22:05
Estel_if you don't have linux dektop, use livecd (I recommend aptosid)22:05
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tx0hi connected the phone via usb to my laptop and saw sdb and sdc but could only mount sdb (MyDocs)22:05
Estel_or virtualisation22:05
Estel_because you don't have microsd22:05
Estel_and sdc is microsd :P22:05
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Estel_+, under linux, and using backupmenu mass storage mode, you will see things like sdb1, sdb2, sdb3...22:06
Estel_(mydocs, home, and swap)22:06
tx0haha, but then i did not got the whole disk and even not /home itself22:06
tx0hi tried fdisk on /dev/sdb and got nothing22:07
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Estel_btw sdb is pure example, it may be whatever, depending on your disk's layout22:07
Estel_without experience with messing with it via terminal, better use gparted22:07
tx0hwell, i do unix/linux since 30 years22:08
Estel_I have experience with terminal partitioning, yet still it's faster and less error prone to use good'old'gparted22:08
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tx0hbut there is even no single user mode on the phone :-)22:08
Estel_well, then you should be coding kernel for us, instead of asking about basics :P22:08
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: well stuck in there but not too worried tbh22:09
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  what I used is hard screwdriver (prefferably flat), small enough to fit into screw22:09
Estel_more sharp one, the better22:09
tx0hok, i will try the backupmenu and see if i can get the mmc on my host22:09
Estel_and *carefully* hammer it a little into screw. Doing it right, no chances to punctuate screw22:10
Estel_then, carefully, you should be able to unscrew it22:10
Estel_you need to cut a little into screw, it's not hardest one on earth22:10
Estel_most screwdrivers are harder, thankfuly, so will cut inside easily22:10
Estel_then dispose of that screw :P22:10
Estel_tx0h,  sure22:10
Estel_and be supercool carefull with screwing them, they're quite soft, thats why nokia manuals say "dispose of screws" after every operation on them22:11
Estel_of course it's bullshit, and if you're carefull, screws on N900 can last eternity22:11
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Estel_just use correct screwdriver and watch for rounding22:12
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: not a chance of that working I tried alsorts when there was a head on the screw22:12
Estel_well, without head it should not hold anything22:12
sixwheeledbeasti suspect the thread was borked during manufacture22:12
Estel_hm, never saw that on any nokia screw.22:13
Estel_btw glueing screwdriver to screw wont work for 99,99% of times22:13
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sixwheeledbeastcorrect hence not too worried, I drilled the head off after trying to glue/reverse drill/ cut slot in head22:14
Estel_even soldering it to screw won't help ;)22:14
Estel_wow, reverse drill haven't helped?22:14
sixwheeledbeastI know solder would be pointless22:14
sixwheeledbeasti mean it was seriously in there22:14
Estel_on slow turnings?22:14
Estel_honestly, you're right with not being worries, one screw there lacking is generally OK22:15
Estel_btw just few minutes ago i disassembled device to fix slider, as screen was shaking a little on it's own gravity22:16
Estel_after zillions of slidings22:16
sixwheeledbeastthe best option was cutting a slot in the top I put so much torque on the flat screwdriver half to head came off22:16
infobotsixwheeledbeast meant: the best option was cutting a slot in the thep I put so much torque on the flat screwdriver half to head came off22:16
Estel_was super-easy to fix via applying force on slider parts, to make it thickier again22:16
sixwheeledbeastgrr not what I meant infobot22:17
sixwheeledbeastinsulting tape22:17
Estel_s/ to / the / would work better22:18
sixwheeledbeastoh did I mention before all the choas of the head getting rounded it snapped my ph0 bit22:18
sixwheeledbeasts/ choas / chaos /22:18
infobotsixwheeledbeast meant: oh did I mention before all the chaos of the head getting rounded it snapped my ph0 bit22:18
sixwheeledbeasthence I suspect thread issue22:19
Estel_divVerent,  I disable cups when not in use, afterr all, it sits in chroot22:19
Estel_so it doesn't eat memory when not used, that would be unnaceptable ;)22:19
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tx0hnice, i can fdisk it now with 'w' from backupmenu22:29
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tx0hok, i make a new tar backup now, fdisk the disk and write the backup back22:34
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Estel_tx0h,  exactly22:48
Estel_~seen Pali22:48
infobotpali <~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 21h 34m 16s ago, saying: 'DocScrutinizer05, here is link for PR.1.3.1 fiasco image:'.22:49
kerioEstel_: i just do it on device with rescueOS nowadays :)22:49
Estel_but it is still creating new partition table via terminal22:50
kerioof course22:50
keriowhy wouldn't i want to use fdisk22:50
Estel_much more error prone than gui tools. Of course, with terminal, you may do it all on single device, not two. Even with backupmenu, not necessary rescueOS22:50
Estel_well, It's quicker to divice emmc into 7 partitions of exactly same size as I want, using gparted ;)22:51
tx0hwell, i still have /home and /home/user/MyDocs in one tar file :-p22:51
Estel_but your mydocs is empty22:51
Estel_if made via backupmenu22:51
Estel_just a mountpoint22:51
tx0hnope, i mounted it22:51
Estel_if you feel it fancy ;)22:52
tx0hit's so much faster than doing it over wireless22:52
Estel_for me this way home backups grow unnecessary in size - if you fckd smth on device and want to restore, you restore home, doesn't need to touch mydocs22:53
tx0hbut my other n900 has no usb yet.22:53
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tx0hyou are right but normaly i don't do backups :------)22:53
tx0hthats the admins task22:54
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  what was that command to tell something to someone, when he arrive? (not about factoid). And how to use it properly, so it would tell it once, on one channel, not everywhere, where that person appears, and infobot is present?22:54
Estel_considering the ammount of bleeding edge things I install, I do backups all the time22:54
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tx0hyepp, you are very active with the n900 and i welcome it!22:55
tx0hi saw some hardware mods as well22:55
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sixwheeledbeastwell you can't backup after a failure... I was made up I had a backup when ribbon died23:03
tx0hok, /home has 8gb now23:04
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keriotx0h: "single user" mode is backupmenu's shell or rescueOS's shell23:11
kerioor the recovery console in bootmenu, i suppose23:11
kerio...yes, recovery console in bootmenu is the closest thing to single user mode23:11
tx0hi'm done. ty23:11
kerioi would still install recovery console and rescueOS in u-boot23:12
tx0hbut for the other n900 its good to know23:12
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Estel_tx0h,  glad you've made it :)23:21
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Estel_yea, I do hardware mods to, including one major that I hope to finish before dying of old age23:21
kerioEstel_: alu body?23:22
tx0hyepp, i just hope i can fix the usb on the other one23:22
Estel_= repalcement body for N900, that would allow us to utilize all hardware possibilities N900 give23:22
Estel_kerio, yea - alu, or, as for my personal one of choice, wooden :P23:22
keriodon't be silly23:22
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Estel_what, some exotic wood looks fantastic23:23
keriothe screen part would be the stock one, right?23:23
keriometal on wood doesn't look good23:23
tx0hwater resistent magnesia aloy would be nice23:23
Estel_depends on wood, I plan to use black one :P23:23
Estel_moving parts wouldnt be water reistant, but rest assured, when I ever finish this project...23:24
Estel_there is someone who would pay me few k dollars for deep underwater resistant body23:24
Estel_for N90023:24
Estel_bioshock, ffs :P23:24
Macerdoubt it23:24
kerioEstel_: how do you make the slider water resistant?23:25
Estel_why so, people have different use cases23:25
Estel_kerio, haven5 though about it yet, especially for higher pressures23:25
tx0hhe could use a camera bag23:25
Estel_but everything is doable23:25
Estel_now for higher pressure (camera bag)23:25
infobotEstel_ meant: not for higher pressure (camera bag)23:25
Macerbecause for such a niche market like underwater photography23:26
Estel_kerio, no joking, I would first check what submarines use for moving parts :P23:26
Maceri doubt the first thing that comes to someone's mind is "oh yeah.. my ancient n900..."23:26
Macerespecially for deep diving23:26
Estel_I dount it's about submarine phoptography23:26
Macerthat requires a "pressure bag" heh23:26
Estel_btw, N900 is quite OK :P23:27
Estel_for underwater photo23:27
Estel_saw some really nice underwqater video in HD  made by N90023:27
Macerthe n900 doesn't even do hd without some type of overclocking hackery i thought23:27
Estel_...then utilize replacement body's external antenna conector, and communicate with world like submarines does23:27
Macerwhich i am sure is awesome for the n900 while it is stuck inside an airtight bag to prevent it from imploding :)23:28
Estel_Macer,  you're years away of knowing anything about what maemo can do23:28
Estel_hd recoring is quite common now, thanks to freemangordon's work23:28
Maceris it upscaled SD ? :)23:28
Estel_of course not.23:28
Maceri was joking23:29
Macercan't see it.. there has to be hackery involved :)23:29
Estel_wasn't sur, considering all this "maemo is stuck" bullshit you're selling us every 2 days :P23:29
Macerit is23:29
Estel_hackery as in using some files from harm and slight overclocking of DSP23:29
MacerDocScrutinizer05 said it himself, "THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR MAEMO!!!!"23:30
Estel_btw, do you know that hildon desktop successfuly run on arch on N900? :P23:30
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Estel_I wouldn't listen to DocScrutinizer05 when it comes to things where emotions are involved23:30
Macereither way tho.. why would someone use an n900 for diving? :) i mean i guess maybe some maemo nut23:30
Estel_to said it at least and in non-offensive way :P23:31
Macerno way. he was right tho. :)23:31
Estel_because android suck and there is still nothing better than N900 in the market, when it comes to super mobile computer with all computer functionalities?23:31
Macerhe fought tooth and nail to explain why maemo wasn't going to run on any new hardware.. then finally blurted out the brutal truth23:31
Estel_I would gladly use something with 1GB RAM, or more, but there is no such thing ;)23:31
Macerhm. depends on what you consider "computer functionalities"23:32
Estel_not only functionalities - doing what desktop can do23:32
Estel_ask yourself why android suck on that big time23:32
Macerdepends on what you mean again23:33
Macerfor the most part with the right apps android can pretty much do anything maemo can although it woudl do it slower on better hardware23:33
Macerbut nowadays the hardware is so retardedly fast that doesn't matter23:33
Estel_cmon, it's all thing about so-called smartphone vs computer23:33
Estel_for the most part android require you to pay for funny "apps", and surely won't let me use debian on it ;)23:34
Macersure.. but... i dunno.. i think if i hooked up my tf101 to something hdmi.. .. i would be able to fulfill my "computer needs" on it23:34
Maceri mean as far as a user goes23:34
Estel_depend on computer needs you have - for me it's about real computer, i.e. all that things like upstream kernel, X, proper hostmode etc23:35
Macerobviously i probably won't be able to run it as an android server :) but who would do that to their phone heh23:35
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Maceri think those types of things are more a problem with the manufacturer of the phone than android23:36
Estel_and achieving anything on android is super-pita23:36
Macerlike the most amount of users for a mobile OS? ;)23:36
Estel_well, some of them, yes, but lack of being real foss linux system is android fault23:36
Macerwhat is the maemo share nowadays heh23:36
Estel_with not-so-upstream kernel, and completely non GNU things above it23:36
Macerthose things are great but they end without demand23:36
Estel_well, I really don't care about what thousand of flies use to sit at.23:37
Macerif only maemo started off with a functional store and lame free apps like the talking mouse and fart app :)23:37
Estel_and you know what I mean23:37
Macerno i know exactly what you mean.. you mean the functionality of the n900 is better than newer hardware but i don't blame google for that23:37
Macerif people stoppped buying phones because of no usb host mode23:37
Macerit would be added ;)23:37
Estel_I care about my needs for device ;) personally, I also thing that cliche for real linux device is quite big, and jolla may discover it they wo't screw it23:38
Macerplus.. didn't the n900 require a bit of hackery to get the host mode working?23:38
Estel_today, many people with simillar needs for real computer are stuck on unfriendly android, not because they like it ah so much23:38
Estel_dont blame google? lately, they have removed ad-hoc wifi support from android23:39
Estel_because some idiots may fail to know when they're MITM'ed23:39
Maceron a nexus one23:39
Estel_+ all this drm shit23:39
Estel_I'll leave it to ubuntu :P23:39
Macerdidn't they put it back in the latest android?23:39
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Estel_no idea23:41
Estel_btw I think you're a little wrong about that invisible market hand23:41
Macerif you say so... demand dictates supply23:41
Estel_as in "if people would like this functionality, it would be added"23:41
Estel_not necessary. Take gaming market as example23:42
* Macer points at symbian and maemo and meego as examples23:42
Estel_people wish good mature RPG's or old style adventures, yet no big company make it23:42
Estel_then, new things like kickstarter appear...23:42
Estel_and one dude get few millions in a week just to make a game, before even drawing concept23:42
Estel_later, wasteland 2 is also financed before even started being manufactured...23:43
Estel_there is shitload of things like bad marketing and internal power games (Nokia)23:43
Estel_N900 was biggest success that they expected, and would be 10 times bigger if they would actually want it to be success23:43
Macermeh. the bottom line was they were losing money because apple and google kicked them in the balls and people liked flashy interfaces more than functionality23:44
Estel_instead of worrying how it will affect symbian23:44
Macerplain and simple heh23:44
Macerthey didn't start making symbian anything worthwhile until belle23:44
Estel_frankly, I blame it rather about people not even knowing about alternatives, due to terrible marketing from Nokia23:44
Macerand by then they needed an MS bailout23:44
Macerand so with it went any other mobile OS they had23:44
Macernokia didn't move fast enough when it could have due to top of the hill syndrome23:45
Macerthey thought they'd be able to quickly buy their way out of problems23:45
Estel_anyway, ammount of people starting doing own things, foss software (whole Linux!) on their own, all those 3D printers etc, tell us that "demand dictates supply" being too much a "mental shortcut"23:45
Macerthen came apple with the iphone.... that was bad enough... then came google with a much anticipated mobile OS :)23:45
Estel_for some extent it does, but not always and not in every matter23:45
Macerfor all extent it does... nobody will donate money to the world for tech ;) not willingly at least23:46
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Estel_btw look at raspberry Pi and people who buy it... no single company wanted to do thing like that, too ;)23:46
Macerif we could pick and choose what we spend our taxes on there would be no DoE in the US lol23:46
Estel_well, Oi don't agree23:46
Macerpi had great demand tho23:46
Macermostly for its ability to use xbmc23:46
Macerif nobody bought it23:46
Macerit wouldn't exist23:46
Estel_most people just doesn't see sense on taxes, due to not seeing/knowing at they're used to, or seeing them wasted23:46
Macerif people stop buying it.. it becomes obsolete23:47
Macerthis is basic economics23:47
Estel_*shrug* I see something more to drive things that I use in my life, than "if others buy itn23:47
Estel_*shrug* I see something more to drive things that I use in my life, than "if others buy it"23:47
Estel_but you seem to say things that some big companies would like people to belive ;)23:47
Estel_have you never considered, that your way of thinking may be a little indoctrinated, in favor of someone else's interest?23:48
Macerif you think so... i say things like that because that is really how things work :)23:49
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Estel_well, everything is relative23:49
Estel_100 years before, many things were belived to "just work like that" in favor of indujstralism23:50
Estel_two great war changed many things23:50
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Estel_300 years ago, for many people, king was touched by god himself, and it was "how things work"23:50
SpeedEvilThe market can be malfuncional.23:50
Estel_always in someone's interest ;)23:50
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MacerSpeedEvil: i wouldn't say malfunctional :)23:51
SpeedEvilLook, for example at lcds.23:51
SpeedEvilWhere can I buy a 4:3 display? Or a 140dpi desktop display23:51
Estel_market could have fix everything magically in theoretical examples of ideal world23:51
Macerthe market just sometimes has an awkward way of correcting itself23:51
SpeedEvilThey are essentially unavailable.23:51
Estel_where decisions would be made with 100% knowledge of subject23:51
freemangordonSpeedEvil: and this is the exact reason I am still using my 2001 laptop23:52
Macernot to mention that the too big to fail banks are ridiculously oversized and the manner in which our government creates money is retarded lol23:52
freemangordon4:3 screen ;)23:52
Estel_it doesn't include armies of lobbyists, etc23:52
Macerbut from the basic manufacturer/consumer standpoint23:52
Macerif people want it they buy it23:52
Macerso make more of it23:52
Macerif they don't make less23:52
Macerthis holds true regardless of wall street23:52
Macerand always has23:52
Estel_Well, I think that in world where consumer avariness rises, and things like crowd-funding or self-manufacturing becomes more common, many things are going to look brighter23:52
SpeedEvilPeople are not always presented with stuff they want to buy23:53
Estel_Macer,  no. People choose only from available things23:53
Estel_even if they would like something very different.23:53
MacerEstel_: n900 was widely available23:53
SpeedEvilFor LCDs, for example, there is a truly massive investment needed to go into making new panels.23:53
Estel_it require more than market - like passion, or beliving in ideas, to create something different and bring it into market.23:53
Macersales in comparison to the G1 for instance23:53
Macerthe G1 outsold the N900 like 100:1 heh23:54
Estel_Macer,  and it was more success than Nokia would like to, at that time23:54
Estel_same for, lets say, nokia pureview23:54
Estel_they did everything they could to discourage buyers23:54
freemangordonMacer: n900 was not backed up by Nokia23:54
freemangordonEstel_: :nod:23:54
Maceroh here we go with the nokia conspiracy theories :)23:54
Estel_its well known fact23:54
Estel_nopt conspiracy23:54
freemangordonMacer: this is not conspiracy23:54
Macerand after that it was learned that nokia, was in fact, responsible for 9/1123:54
Estel_many nokia employess officially confirmed most of it23:54
SpeedEvilSeveral months in, things cooled dramatically.23:55
Estel_ex-employees ;)23:55
Macermany "former" i'm sure23:55
SpeedEvilStupid stuff like the store not working.23:55
Macerand after that they said the CEO has sex with interns and men?23:55
freemangordonMacer: remeber elop saying that no matter what, n9 will be the last meego device?23:55
Estel_well, fact is that for some countries, there were 8 nokia pureviews available23:55
Maceri like my e7.. loved my n90023:55
Estel_and people paid 5-6 times the price on ebay for them23:55
SpeedEvilAnd people being actively discouraged from launching software for n900.23:55
Macerbut i can't buy into the nokia made themselves fail on purpose theory haha23:55
Estel_conspiracy of ebay buyers? ;)23:55
freemangordonMacer: remember in which countries was n9 available in?23:55
Macerfreemangordon: finland... and ... greenland?23:56
SpeedEvilMacer: You're supposing 'Nokia' is one thing.23:56
Estel_Macer,  dont you realize how bad decisions, human errors, power games, bad management etc can sinkl a company?23:56
freemangordonand bulkgaria and khazahstan23:56
Estel_as for N900, it's said from many different sources, that they were concerned how it will affect sumbian (which was leader, then)23:57
Estel_btw remember petitions to have N9 in some country?23:57
Estel_and lack of support to N900 in many areas ;)23:57
freemangordonMacer: sorry for the typos, it is kazakhstan23:57
Maceri thought there was another k in there somewhere23:57
Estel_compare it to success of Pi, and interest in vivaldi, even given fact that the latter never appeared23:58
Macersorry but that sounds like a comp out for supporters to explain why their device is already obsolete with no new models out :)23:58
Estel_I'm quite certain that niche for "geek mobile computers" is not lesser than for overpriced apple shit23:58
Macerlike a year after mine when i had just had my n810 abandoned23:58
SpeedEvilIt's internal politics.23:58
Macerjust to have the n900 abandoned lol23:58
Macerthe shit just wasn't selling23:58
Estel_people are dying for anything that promises FOSS mobile computer23:58
Macersymbian was probably their best bet23:58
Estel_inmcluding some cons23:59
MacerEstel_: maemo was anything but23:59
Maceri used to come in here23:59
Macerlistening to disgruntled devs all day23:59
freemangordonMacer: ooh, and symbian was abandoned because of the market?23:59
SpeedEvilMaemo was probably the closest we've gotten so far.23:59
Macerfreemangordon: sure. nokia lost too much money. struck a deal with MS23:59
Estel_Macer,  I think, OTOH, that you're lacking knowledge about maaany events and technical decisions...23:59
SpeedEvilIt's a hell of a lot more linux-like than android.23:59

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