IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2013-03-08

vdvok00:00
DocScrutinizer05but extras-devel is meant to get disabled after installation of any package00:00
DocScrutinizer05I know it sucks, but that's the way it is00:00
vdvDocScrutinizer05: Estel_ said you know a prog which can monitor call duration and notify00:00
DocScrutinizer05it sucks less with merlin's extras-devel-light repo mirror00:01
DocScrutinizer05vdv: lemme find it for you, while you read on00:01
vdvDocScrutinizer05, why should extras-devel be disabled?00:01
DocScrutinizer05~jrtools00:01
infobotjrtools is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools00:01
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  you remember this nice program from tmo to log minutes anc sms and costs? I can't recall it's name for a life of mine00:01
* DocScrutinizer05 neither, that's why I need to find it00:02
Estel_vdv, because you may get something unstable upgraded. But you can leavde it enabled, if you're carefull about what you upgrade00:02
DocScrutinizer05the half of it are calllog SQL scripts from ~jrtools though00:02
vdvEstel_, i never accept updates from ui package manager00:02
DocScrutinizer05will swamp you with "packages that have updates" every day00:03
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  untill you disable HAM autoupdate00:03
DocScrutinizer05:-P00:03
Estel_by setting it to update every 3k years or so00:03
sixwheeledbeastwiki remembers uploaded images but none of the changes per user00:03
DocScrutinizer05every 50 recommended00:03
Estel_and, fanfares use fapman for updates :P00:03
Estel_haha00:03
vdvEstel_, i remember i did that00:04
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  thanks, will add comment about images to my report00:04
vdvadded a big number to counter00:04
vdvso that i don't get updates check on every internet connection00:04
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1050432#post1050432 here you are00:05
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  does it shows subscribtions made after migration?00:05
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: fapman  :P00:05
Estel_have you edited any article after migration?00:05
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  this is package real name :P00:05
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DocScrutinizer05ever been00:06
sixwheeledbeastwiki has images from pre migration but nothing for changes at all00:06
DocScrutinizer05~fapman00:06
infobotfapman is, like, Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever00:06
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  it shows 0 contributions from your side, so I'm interested if you have contributed anything after migration00:06
sixwheeledbeast~botsnack00:07
infobotsixwheeledbeast: aw, gee00:07
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  have you seen my conversation with keiro, where I checked all packages that were rumored to cause problems with fapman...00:07
Estel_due to pre/post installk/remove scripts...00:07
Estel_and it turned out that it's all fud? :P00:07
DocScrutinizer05:shrug:00:07
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  again, have you edited any wiki article after migration?00:07
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DocScrutinizer05I can promise fapman won't work with CSSU00:07
sixwheeledbeastyep broken package list and some other stuff00:07
Pali~ham00:08
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, ham is Hildon Application Manager.  Slow like molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does00:08
DocScrutinizer05and I also might bet an arm or a leg that fapman does autoremove00:08
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Estel_infobot: no, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU)00:08
infobotokay, Estel_00:08
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Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  good point00:09
DocScrutinizer05~forget fapman00:09
infoboti forgot fapman, DocScrutinizer0500:09
DocScrutinizer05~unforget fapman00:09
infobotDocScrutinizer05: Successfully recovered 'fapman'.  Have fun now.00:09
DocScrutinizer05~fapman00:09
infobotfrom memory, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU)00:09
DocScrutinizer05meh00:09
Estel_infobot: no, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default.00:09
infobotokay, Estel_00:09
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  whats wrong with my factoid?00:09
n900-dk_busy bot tonight :)00:09
DocScrutinizer05it's not your factoid00:10
Paliham doing also autoremove every operation00:10
DocScrutinizer05and it not been wrong either00:10
Estel_it's kerio one, and he agreed :P00:10
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Estel_it have been quite non-informative00:10
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DocScrutinizer05I don't see him agreeing00:10
sixwheeledbeastplenty of snacks to keep it going00:10
Estel_I want to be fair here, not describing it as super-duper, just stating facts00:10
* kerio plays minecraft00:10
xesEstel_: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72341&highlight=sms+counter00:10
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  since when publiv factoids are personal, and, BTW, he agreed when I mythbusted fud about fapman :P00:11
DocScrutinizer05I told you not to mess with existing infobot factoids!00:11
Estel_xes, thanks00:11
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  wtf? just me can't contribute to them, or what?00:11
DocScrutinizer05you got a record for doing that00:11
Estel_today I added things to bq-calibrating, and you were not bitching about it00:11
DocScrutinizer05you *added* stuff00:12
Estel_so it ratherr looks like your personal antagonity against fapman :P00:12
DocScrutinizer05no, it's about general rules regarding factoid edits00:12
n900-dk_Maybe we should fire the bot and just use Doc ;)00:12
Estel_oh, dear, factoid with facts in it, rather than "never use it ever", sounds like fair contribution00:12
Estel_ok, whatever00:12
kerioactually i think that the factoid was changed00:12
kerioor deleted00:12
Estel_~fapman00:13
infobothmm... fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default.00:13
keriothe point is, we don't know, because you haven't checked it before changing it00:13
DocScrutinizer05~factinfo fapman00:13
infobotfapman -- created by RiD <~GhostRide@2.83.43.131> at Thu Jul  5 20:14:21 2012 (245 days); last modified 3m 31s ago  by Estel_!~Estel@Maemo/community/contributor/Estel-; it has been requested 22 times, last by Estel_, 12s ago.00:13
Estel_yes, I have checked it ?<00:13
DocScrutinizer05so how is it kerio's factoid?00:13
Estel_ough, sorry, kerio once told me he made it00:13
DocScrutinizer05that's why you got a very personal infraction to not edit factoids00:14
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=estel&page=&year=&month=-100:14
Estel_my mistake, anyway, never saw rule that public factoids need permission, to edit, it's just plain stupid. Like someone make ~Docscrutinizer is asshat and you can't edit it cause it is his factoid?00:14
sixwheeledbeastpre migration for example00:14
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Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  whatever, I know that many things on those irc channels are quite not logical, like user getting bashing for editing factoid to be precise and informative, rather than haters FUBAR00:15
sixwheeledbeastalso all user names on wiki "were" first char uppercase now not so00:15
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  I know00:15
DocScrutinizer05yes, *you* mustn't edit ~docscrutinizer, no matter who defined it00:15
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DocScrutinizer05btw you couldn't00:15
Estel_I just wonder if post-migration contributions are found00:15
n900-dk_let's have a voting for a factiod master, oh no, let's make that a board00:16
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DocScrutinizer05Estel_: the logic is simple: your notion of what's precise and what's haters is simply not better than that of original factoid author00:17
DocScrutinizer05never00:17
DocScrutinizer05your!!! never ever ever00:17
DocScrutinizer05so you can add to facoids, but never redefine them00:18
DocScrutinizer05unless they are yours00:18
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n900-dk_any better app for offline nav than Sygic Mobile?00:19
DocScrutinizer05marble00:19
DocScrutinizer05dunno if it's "better"00:19
cehtehmonav00:20
DocScrutinizer05actually monav does the offline nav00:20
sixwheeledbeastdoesn't modrana work offline with monav?00:20
n900-dk_it supports offline nav?00:20
DocScrutinizer05for marble00:20
cehtehi meant not the deamon but the frontend with vector maps00:20
cehtehnot the package in extras :)00:20
Estel_I still bet that if I would add "he is also a bitch" to ~docscrutinizer, I would get instaban - but, whatever00:20
n900-dk_and voice directions please00:20
Estel_I've send bug report to nemein, cc'ing techstaff00:20
Estel_about wiki00:20
cehtehhttp://monav.openstreetmap.de/00:20
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: again, you can't00:21
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  *rolleyes* because it's locked, but it was just example00:21
Estel_let it be ~kerio is a bitch, same result00:21
cehtehhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:MoNav_03_Maemo.png  << that ui00:21
DocScrutinizer05no, i would ignore that ;-P00:21
keriono, *you* are a bitch00:22
DocScrutinizer05or lock it X-P00:22
Estel_n900-dk_,  ModRana seems like most actively developed nav program for N90000:22
Estel_with all functions you've described as required00:22
cehtehoffline?00:22
DocScrutinizer05leave it to kerio to delete or edit it and lock his factoid00:22
Estel_2nd would be Marble, although, lack some major things like sqlite tile storage00:22
cehtehmodrana can cache tiles and preload them00:22
kerioalso, just to remind you00:22
kerio~kerio00:22
infobotwell, kerio is <DocScrutinizer05> kerio is right00:22
Estel_(= tiles consume MUCH more space)00:22
n900-dk_Estel_: But no voice directions right?00:23
DocScrutinizer05why the heck would *I* care?00:23
Estel_n900-dk_,  voice directions too in modrana00:23
Estel_via espeak00:23
cehtehi almost only use monav nowadays ..00:23
n900-dk_Estel_: damn, espeak is no go00:24
Estel_n900-dk_,  why so?00:24
Estel_cehteh,  modrana uses monav bits too :P00:24
n900-dk_Can't understand it00:24
Estel_and abusing google satellite is funny00:24
vdvhow can i make opera default browser on my n900?00:24
cehtehthere is some developent version with speech support for monav somewhere, i havent used it yet00:24
vdvit's so amazing00:24
Estel_n900-dk_,  I suppose you could add your own voiceset from other program to be used by modrana?00:24
DocScrutinizer05WTF would anybody store tiles in sqlite?00:25
Estel_M4rtinK,  is it ^ possible?00:25
sixwheeledbeastvdv: browser-switchboard00:25
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  because every tile is small and you waste rest of block00:25
DocScrutinizer05meh00:25
Estel_thousand of tiles = hundred of wasted megabytes00:25
Estel_or even gigabytes00:25
Estel_(not hundreds :P )00:25
Estel_it's 3x-4x less space used for tile, or more, if you use 8bit maps00:26
DocScrutinizer05wut?00:26
Estel_storing them in sqlite is best inevntion since sliced bread :P00:26
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DocScrutinizer05suuuure00:26
Estel_well, if you have, lets say, 8kb blocks...00:26
Estel_and tile is 2 kb...00:27
DocScrutinizer05since sqlite works so amazingly fast and efficient, e.g with tracker00:27
DocScrutinizer05no, we don't have 8k blocks00:27
DocScrutinizer05afaik00:27
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  no idea, but for programs I've used it works blazing fast00:27
DocScrutinizer05neither are tiles 2k, again afaik00:27
Estel_whatever, tiles are rarely over 1KB00:27
Estel_well, depends on map used00:27
sixwheeledbeastn900-dk_: have you tweaked with the espeak settings?00:27
Estel_I got shitload of them and saved 1.5 GB or so00:28
DocScrutinizer05using 1k tiles is simply braindead00:28
sixwheeledbeastslow it down for example00:28
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  for non-satellite maps, 8 bit maps are, most of the times, looking the same as 24 bit ones00:28
Estel_using fraction of storage00:28
Estel_see comparision of google maps (normal) and 8bits variant00:29
DocScrutinizer0550*50 pixels are already 2500 *pixels*00:29
Estel_same content, many times smaller00:29
DocScrutinizer05and 50*50 is insanely small00:29
vdvsixwheeledbeast, is that an app?00:29
Estel_I talk about color depth?00:29
Estel_(ibit vs 24 bit)00:29
Estel_(or 16 bit)00:29
sixwheeledbeastvdv: browser switchboard = yes,latest from devel is good IIRC00:30
n900-dk_sixwheeledbeast: Yes, but still not the best00:30
Estel_s/ibit/8bit/00:30
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  theory aside, tiles stored in sqlite use shitload less space, in practice00:30
n900-dk_and it's only the distance that is lokal language00:30
n900-dk_s/lokal/local/g00:30
infobotn900-dk_ meant: and it's only the distance that is local language00:30
Estel_with no perceived slowing down of loading time00:30
Estel_which is all that matters :P00:30
sixwheeledbeastn900-dk_: k, i hate voice navigation have voice on sygic off anyway00:30
vdvsixwheeledbeast, browser-switchboard installed microb here :)00:31
Estel_as said, I saved  ~1.5GB, after putting my tiles into sqlite00:31
sixwheeledbeastvdv: ?00:31
xesI filled my sd with 15gb of tiles to be used with trackaway. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85686 ..And it is still reall fast ;)00:32
Estel_in sqlite?00:32
vdvsixwheeledbeast, i have a menu item MicroB now )00:32
vdvand it launches standard browser00:32
xesEstel_: tilestore from Mobac00:32
DocScrutinizer05my tiles here are 7..50k size00:33
sixwheeledbeastvdv: settings > browser switchboard . opera = done :)00:33
sixwheeledbeasts/./>00:33
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  change tile provider :P00:34
Estel_anyway00:34
Estel_for any block size, tile that exteeds it by 1 kb00:34
DocScrutinizer05why should I?00:34
vdvsixwheeledbeast, thanks a lot )00:34
Estel_still waste another full block00:34
xesbtw, under the sun 24 bit = 8 bit = 2 bit ;)00:34
sixwheeledbeastvdv: np00:34
Estel_so hyphotetival 50kb tile is still wasting some kb00:34
Estel_in sqlite, you waste none, per thousands of tiles00:35
Estel_xes, yea00:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  idk why should you, to stop wasting storage space? :P00:35
DocScrutinizer05bwahahaha00:35
DocScrutinizer05you just waste sqlite metainfo overhead00:35
Estel_...as it's still single file with all tiles00:35
Estel_no, I don't :)00:35
Estel_as said, saved 1.5 GB, by converting my tiles to sqlite database00:36
Estel_which is nice deal for me00:36
Estel_anyway00:36
DocScrutinizer05honestly storing large amounts of huge data in a rdbms is braindead00:36
Estel_your mileage may wary ;)00:36
DocScrutinizer05as braindead as it gets00:36
kerio>implying sqlite is a rdbms00:36
Estel_well, in practice it works, as I have 1.5 GB more for other uses00:36
DocScrutinizer05LOL, my whole map is no 1.5GB00:37
Estel_...and every new area i download, saved increase00:37
Estel_well, as said, I travel much00:37
Estel_so your mileage may wary00:37
DocScrutinizer05I downloaded whole country00:37
Estel_2/3 of my N900 storage is maps00:37
n900-dk_sixwheeledbeast: So you don't use n900 for navigation in car?00:37
Estel_well, maybe on low zoom :P00:38
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Estel_I need quite detailed zoom without net connectivity, many times00:38
sixwheeledbeastn900-dk: no a van00:38
Estel_n900-dk_,  even in car I don't use voicenav00:38
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sixwheeledbeasti don't like things talking at me and distrubing OMP00:39
n900-dk_You have a wife or just know your way around? ;)00:39
DocScrutinizer05using that small tiles is idiotic, anyway. And probably only done to have a proper excuse to use a SQL database which is the next idiotic design decision00:39
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  I also admit that I find satellite view useful many times, on high zoom, so it adds to storage00:39
sixwheeledbeastplus i have very good local knowledge00:39
sixwheeledbeastn900-dk_ latter00:39
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  modrana or other nav programs doesnt decide on tile sizes00:39
Estel_providers like google or openstreetmap deefines tilesize00:40
DocScrutinizer05so what do you think are the tile *I* ise from?00:40
DocScrutinizer05use*00:40
DocScrutinizer05and I haven't seen a single tile <5k00:40
Estel_No idea, maybe you see smallest streets while having whole country at 3x screen size? :P00:40
Estel_on my case I have hundred of thousands tiles from various map layers00:41
Estel_if not more00:41
DocScrutinizer05so what?00:41
DocScrutinizer05does that change size of a sibngle tile?00:41
Estel_not to mention hitting limit of number of tiles in one directory, no problem with sqlite00:41
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  it means that saved space on every tile adds up00:41
Estel_it doesnt matter if your tiles are bigger00:42
Estel_1kb above blovk size or 4x blocksize + 50 bytes still waste another blocksize00:42
Estel_multiply it by a 500 000 or 1 500 000 tiles00:42
DocScrutinizer05go argue til you're blue in the face. Nobody with a sane mind stores enormous amounts of blobs in a database00:42
Estel_then, one can add fast compression, too00:43
Estel_well, every sane foss program moves into storing tiles in sqlite00:43
DocScrutinizer05au contraire, they store those blobs on files and the filename in database00:43
Estel_marble is going to incorporate it too :P00:43
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DocScrutinizer05no surprise, marble is kde00:43
DocScrutinizer05kde got kmail200:44
Estel_so I would rather count on their experrience and my saved 1.5 GB reinforcing it, than argue with you about ideology, when it works in practice00:44
DocScrutinizer05which is using mysql for the maildir indexing00:44
DocScrutinizer05yeah, works like kade00:44
DocScrutinizer05KDE even00:44
DocScrutinizer05obviously another one of your "scientific proofs"00:45
Estel_for me 1.5 GB on 32 GB device gained for FREE (no speed penalty while using it) is good gain worth effort00:45
Estel_especially that my effort afterr initial conversion is 000:45
Estel_new tiles just get saved to file00:45
DocScrutinizer05again, I hardly see whole countries of that size00:45
Estel_*shrugs*00:45
DocScrutinizer05on OSM00:45
Estel_as said, I don't use only osm00:46
Estel_google satrllite and their streets overlay00:46
DocScrutinizer05so maybe *you* should change your map provider then00:46
Estel_(streets overlay got especially small sized tiles)00:46
xesDocScrutinizer05: the point is the realation blocksize/tile size. On large filesystems you may loose many GB.00:47
Estel_why so, if some developers coded sqlite that allow me to use any tiles i like without wasting space due to blocksize? :P c'mon, you're arguing just for sake of it. It works, it makes people happy, it doesn't offend you or force to use it.00:47
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xesthe worst thing is that so far there isn't a mapping software able to apply a customizable color/saturation/hue filter before loading the tiles. Some map provider has really orrible color schemes00:47
Estel_xes, DocScrutinizer05 just got mood of pointlessly arguing just for the sake of it. Happens from time to time oin this channel :P00:47
Estel_xes, suggest it to M4rtinK00:48
Estel_I think he would gladly implement it if feasible, as it's great idea00:48
DocScrutinizer05no, i'll stop arguing with a guy who never ever accepted an better rationale once he had decided for "his way"00:48
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  frankly, you're only one bitching about someone else using sqlite for tiles, that ois saving gigabytes of space. :P00:48
DocScrutinizer05meh keep your nonsense to yourself00:49
Estel_last time I checked no one forced you to use it, eh?00:49
DocScrutinizer05last time you started arguing like this, somebody 8not me) kicked you00:50
xesno need to argue for this. Most applications have both choices to satisfy the different needs. Thats all00:50
n900-dk_cheer up guys - why do we have so much negative spirit in here? Didn't used to be like this..00:51
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  it was the same troll who acussed me of "using council cloak on irc after reesigning"? you have funny heroes :P00:51
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* sixwheeledbeast just did apt-get upgrade with cssu-devel and didn't die :)00:51
keriosixwheeledbeast: i do that all the time00:51
Estel_sixwheeledbeast,  you mean new rmo?00:51
xesif you have 1gb of tiles you can fit everywhere. If you have 20 GB you start trying different ways00:51
keriojust keep a backup handy00:51
DocScrutinizer05xes: storing blobs in a SQL db for exploiting a minor implementation detail that could as well get reached by using a better FS or smaller blocksize is nothing to argue about, and no sane program will provide it as *option*00:51
Estel_lol, I'm not gonna change my filesystem just for tiles!00:52
sixwheeledbeastthumb + cssu devel + new rmo on my new testing device :)00:52
DocScrutinizer05lol, there's a noob who never heard of loopmounts00:52
Estel_and every sane program provide is as an option or plans to, no matter what DocScrutinizer05 thinks about it ;)00:52
kerioDocScrutinizer05: dude, chill00:52
kerioyou're acting like... idk, Estel_00:52
Estel_I think continuation of this discussions is pointless?... it reminds me of today bme in upstart one, although this one is MUCH more pointless00:53
DocScrutinizer05sure, show me one program that has option "use sql | use plain files"00:53
xesmobac00:53
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  google for it, and if it isn't there yet, it is in roadmaps for features :P00:53
DocScrutinizer05fine, this app qualifies for the non-sane 2% then00:54
Estel_mobac, modrana (and any rana thing), marble on it's way, + shitload of commercial things doing it under the hood00:54
sixwheeledbeastmodrana does IIRC00:54
Estel_of course it does.00:54
xesDocScrutinizer05: :)00:54
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: you said OPTION00:54
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Estel_well, if poettering is agressively enforcing own views on things, then i don't know what reisenberging is.00:55
vdvseems opera mobile don't support flash...00:55
vdvor does?00:55
sixwheeledbeastvdv: correct00:55
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Estel_oh right, so commercial ones that switched from files to database without asking user about opinion doesnt comply :P00:55
vdvsixwheeledbeast, so it does support?00:55
xesmanage a lot of maps is a pain, porting between devices in another problem. Have the possibility to choose the format is very important00:55
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: you're trying to make me angry? or is this just another lame trolling practiceing lesson?00:55
sixwheeledbeastvdv: does not00:56
vdvsixwheeledbeast, do you have n900?00:56
Estel_in fact, I'm going to eat yoghurt now. With cornflakes! That will make you anrgy.00:56
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Estel_angry, even00:56
sixwheeledbeastvdv: x3 now00:56
*** Estel_ was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (User terminated!)00:56
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xes:)00:56
DocScrutinizer05he asked for it, didn't he?00:57
xestom & jerry00:57
xes:)00:57
sixwheeledbeastmmm saw that coming00:57
xes..like a train ;)00:57
vdvsixwheeledbeast, but still, which browser can you advice? fennec seems very slow..00:57
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sixwheeledbeastvdv: I use opera and put up with no flash, purely for portrait keyboard and autorefocus thing00:58
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vdvyes, it's so nice00:59
sixwheeledbeastvdv: I do wish to get fennec thumb working on testing device00:59
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vdvi've commented out lines in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list with #, but seems it wouldn't work, right?00:59
n900-dk_DocScrutinizer05: dont get why you are to sensitive and kick folks for small stuff - you could just stop replying :)01:00
n900-dk_s/to/so/01:00
infobotn900-dk_ meant: DocScrutinizer05: dont get why you are so sensitive and kick folks for small stuff - you could just stop replying :)01:00
M4rtinKI'm here :)01:00
M4rtinKregarding that sqlite tile storage01:01
M4rtinKit indeed saves a lot of space in practise01:01
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M4rtinKI had a uses report a batch of tiles taking ~ 1.6 GB and taking only 80 MB when stored in sqlite01:02
n900-dk_no more talk about titles please, doc is in a bad mood ;)01:02
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: might do, and exactly for the reasons he mentioned. Still it's idiotic to use that huge overhead of a sql db for that01:02
n900-dk_s/titles/tiles/g01:03
infobotn900-dk_ meant: no more talk about tiles please, doc is in a bad mood ;)01:03
M4rtinKdue to the quite large cluster size on the FAT32 MyDocs01:03
M4rtinKwell, I haven't been able to come with any other workable solution01:03
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M4rtinKsome plain indexed binary file would probably do01:04
DocScrutinizer05user reiserfs on a loopmount01:04
DocScrutinizer05or use ext4 iirc01:04
M4rtinKbut I was not able to find anything of the shelf01:04
DocScrutinizer05Martix: that too01:04
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: ^^^01:04
DocScrutinizer05sorry Martix01:04
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MartixM4rtinK: you? again?01:05
M4rtinKof course, the users are free to use that01:05
M4rtinKbut I needed something that only uses Python (which has sqlite built-in)01:05
DocScrutinizer05sqlite is a bitch01:05
M4rtinKand it is an option BTW, default is files (for sharing with other programs)01:06
DocScrutinizer05makes maemo crawl even on 2Mb large messages db01:06
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M4rtinKindeed it is - had a few headaches till I got it working01:06
M4rtinKthe old sqlite in Python 2.5 hates threaded access01:06
M4rtinKbut once I got that sorted out - it really is not a bottleneck01:07
DocScrutinizer05nobody ever stores "huge" blobs *inside* the db01:07
DocScrutinizer05huge == everything > a few 100 bytes01:07
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DocScrutinizer05except those tracker fools01:08
DocScrutinizer05a db isn't made for that stuff01:08
M4rtinKwell, even the tiles themselves are a hack01:08
MartixM4rtinK: I agree with DocScrutinizer05, using DB for tiles is crazy01:08
M4rtinKvector data would be much more efficient & enable other use cases01:08
MartixM4rtinK: even tiles are hack? ok, and you needed to went deeper?01:09
DocScrutinizer05datatype blob is basically a filename pointer to a file in detached fs storage01:09
MartixM4rtinK: why dont share vector data between apps?01:09
DocScrutinizer05that's pretty much standard in every db01:09
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DocScrutinizer05and it makes sense since a db is meant to *work* with the content01:10
DocScrutinizer05not to *store* it01:10
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: but that would still need the files stored somewhere if I'm not mistaken ?01:10
M4rtinKthe problem is the FS01:11
DocScrutinizer05how would you index or sort or add or average blobs?01:11
M4rtinKnot an issue on EXT, etc.01:11
MartixM4rtinK: anyway, SQL for your usecase is really huge overkill, have you tried at least noSQL dbs?01:11
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keriomongodb is web scale!01:11
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M4rtinKMartix: get me something that 1. uses only Python 2.5 stuff, 2. works on the N900 without user intervention, 3. is faster than the current solution01:12
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DocScrutinizer05loopmount ext401:12
M4rtinKBTW, the database is not used that often01:12
kerioDocScrutinizer05: mmh, you'd need something that grows automatically though01:13
M4rtinKmodRana has a in-memory cache for visible tiles01:13
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M4rtinKso it just grabs 10-20 at a time and that's it01:13
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Martixindexed file, I mean same method like video containers use for frames01:13
DocScrutinizer05kerio: use a sparse file then?01:14
M4rtinKMartix: sure - any Python 2.5 compatible modules for that ?01:14
* RST38h yawns, moos at Doc thoughtfully01:14
M4rtinKBTW, structure of the database is described here: http://modrana.org/trac/wiki/SQLiteStorageDescriptionEN01:14
MartixM4rtinK: you can program it yourself, just stop being lazy01:14
M4rtinKMartix: thanks a lot for your glorious insight ! :)01:15
MartixM4rtinK: your welcome, I'm always happy to help01:15
DocScrutinizer05kerio: virtual size 10GB, used 200k, actual size of image file 1MB01:15
MartixM4rtinK: just try indexed file approach, thanks!01:15
DocScrutinizer05mostly due to inodes01:15
* DocScrutinizer05 moos at RST38h01:16
xesM4rtinK: i have one question for you. Why nobody asked/made somethink to apply a filter before load the tiles? (to tweak a little the colors of some map provider)01:16
M4rtinKif this indeed could be used automatically with tools available on the N900, why not01:16
M4rtinKxes: already half-implemented01:17
M4rtinKthe recent versions already have a built-in negative filter support01:17
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M4rtinK(using PIL, so it's fast)01:18
xesM4rtinK: the result should be make the osm maps vsible under the sun light01:18
M4rtinKxes: check options->Map->Filters01:19
DocScrutinizer05oh wait, no sparse file on VFAT01:19
xesM4rtinK: thanks!01:19
M4rtinKshouldnt be that hard to add other filters01:19
M4rtinKand regarding vector map rendering: https://github.com/kothic/kothic01:20
xesthe purpose would be to use the osm cycle maps offroad ;)01:20
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M4rtinKit's a very interesting map renderer written in Python that uses Cairo01:21
M4rtinKthe renderings should look like this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kothic01:22
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M4rtinKhaven't got time to integrate it with modRana yet - any help with this would be welcome ! :)01:22
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xesM4rtinK: really nice! Another little trick missing (afaik) in modrana is a quick jump to a city/place. I have added to the app trackaway a quick search and jump to a place in the map using gns data inserted into a sqlite db: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/01:25
M4rtinKxes: search->address online ? :)01:26
M4rtinKbut yeah, offline database search could be also helpful01:27
xesoffline search for coordinates giving a place name with the results ordered by distance01:27
M4rtinKoh that01:28
xesi have created that gns db with the scheme of modrana's poi db ;)01:28
M4rtinKoh :D01:28
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M4rtinKif you have some sharable script for that, I can add it the the modRana wiki :)01:28
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xesif you want try something similar i could send you the scripts to import gns into sqlite01:29
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xesthen the function to calculate spherical distance is just bash01:30
M4rtinKxes: sure :)01:30
xesquick and dirty :)01:30
M4rtinKxes: I guess the POI handling in modRana could use an improvement01:31
M4rtinKif you have many POIs, it could be quite tedious currently01:31
M4rtinKI should add at least some sorting01:31
M4rtinKdistance/name01:32
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M4rtinK& search01:32
M4rtinKand built-int import would be nice :)01:33
vdvis there any new pdf reader for n900?01:34
xesfine! I'm going to search for that scripts and as soon as i find them i'll send you all01:34
vdvor nothing better than evince?01:34
M4rtinKOK :)01:34
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M4rtinKxes: thanks :)01:34
xesM4rtinK: thanks to you!01:34
Estel_kerio, do you have kernel-power headers installed on your dev enviromnent?01:34
XDS2010whats the easiest way to do a full backup of a n900 ?01:34
XDS2010im selling mine01:34
Estel_hi M4rtinK :)01:34
Estel_nice to see you, xes had some great idea for modrana01:35
Estel_sorry if re-writing something, just going to read backlog - some fool kicked me, while I was eating01:35
vdvif "setxkbmap my_custom_layout" gives no error and custom layout works also ok, then is "gconftool-2 -s -t string /apps/osso/inputmethod/int_kb_layout my_custom_layout" safe? :)01:36
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XDS2010what do i need to do to do a complete backup of my n900 ?01:39
XDS2010will pc suite do it ?01:39
SpeedEvilI'm unsure01:40
SpeedEvilI don't think so01:40
Estel_M4rtinK,  lol, just saw Martix suggesting you to spend xxx hours on coding something just for the sake of it. What a valuable contribution :P01:40
Estel_Martix,  though about douing it yourself and submitting patch?01:40
SpeedEvilI'm forgetting the name of the backup tool01:41
Estel_SpeedEvil,  thanks for suggestion about digitizer01:41
SpeedEvilthere is one in the repos01:41
SpeedEvilEstel_: ?01:41
Estel_SpeedEvil,  backupmenu?01:41
SpeedEvilah - yes - that01:41
Estel_SpeedEvil,  repairing digitizer. i'm just unsure what border garbage you mean?01:41
MartixEstel_: are you suggesting different solution? perhaps already available as Python 2.5 module?01:41
Estel_Macer,  sure, keeping current solution, as it works fast and reliably01:41
SpeedEvilEstel_: Sorry - context fail01:41
vdvis qtsdk not free anymore?01:42
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Estel_SpeedEvil,  I asked about any ideas why digitizer in ideal condition may workk 100% ok then, after 10 minutes, act like one part is pressed 100% of time01:42
Estel_no visible damage, etc01:42
Estel_not even single scratch, so I just wanted to try messing with reviving it01:42
keriopressure damage?01:43
MartixEstel_: or are you just trying to troll on my account?01:43
Estel_kerio,  suspecting that - guy owning it was using it while snowboarding, so I first suspected moisture, but no signs of it. Also, I've kept it in silica bag overnight01:43
SpeedEvilSilica bag doesn't really remove all water.01:44
SpeedEvilI'd recommend washing in distilled water, plus a week at 50C01:44
Estel_Macer,  just stating that suggesting a hard working developer to freplace 100% working solution with something else just to satisfy you - without submitting patch yourself - is luser way of doing it01:44
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Estel_SpeedEvil,  hm... anyway, I suspect it to be a damage due to pressure at one point01:44
M4rtinKBTW, for anyone interested, the modRana upstream repository is here: https://github.com/M4rtinK/modrana01:44
Estel_had smth like that once, and "massaging" digitizerr + some time helped01:45
Estel_problems never returned01:45
MartixEstel_: delegating is crucial part of timemanagement :-)01:45
Estel_but this one digitizer is strange, I suspect while he was snowboarding, something pressed against center of N900 screen01:45
M4rtinKMerge requests welcome ! (like the nice one from Wikiwide I've merged just two days ago :) )01:45
Estel_:)01:45
MartixEstel_: along with setting priorities01:45
SpeedEvilEstel - that's also possible01:46
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Estel_so changing sqlite database is priority for smth about year 214501:46
Estel_if watching porn doesn't pop up before it01:46
Estel_SpeedEvil,  anyway I wanted to try checking for that border contamination you've mentioned01:46
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Estel_just don't exactly get what it is01:47
Estel_otherwise I'm going bitch mode and selling it on ebay, condition "unknown", visually perfect (no single scratch) :P01:47
Estel_even huge red warning about buying at own risk and unknown condition won't stop fools from buying due to it having no scratches *evil mode*01:49
Estel_SpeedEvil,  so what is border contamination? or you just mean dirt behind it and screen? in that case nope, as I disassembled it to barebones01:49
SpeedEvilEstel - if stuff gets damp, especially if the water is not pure, nasty stuff happens.01:49
SpeedEvilThis includes electroplating inside the PCB.01:50
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SpeedEvilFor more mild cases, washing off the PCB, perhaps with mild brushing, and distilled water, then very thorough drying can help01:50
Estel_sure thing, will try destiled water... Still, I bet on pressure damage, just curious why no visual symptomes01:51
Estel_you mean pcb of digitizer?01:51
Estel_(only digitizer is fubar)01:51
XDS2010i can't get backup menu to install for some odd reason01:52
Estel_btw as for silica bag I mean 0.5 kg bag and digitizer was *inside* :P01:52
XDS2010installation failed ?01:52
Estel_XDS2010,  logs please?01:52
XDS2010Estel_:  not sure i can get to them atm01:52
XDS2010ill try01:52
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XDS2010Estel_:  what are we looking for ?01:53
Estel_sure you can, use apt or fapman01:53
Estel_whole log after apt-get install backupmenu01:53
Estel_pastebinned somewhere (for example, zerobin)01:53
M4rtinKgood night ! :)01:54
XDS2010Estel_:  spru.ng work :P01:54
XDS2010some crazy error about disk space01:54
Estel_bb M4rtinK01:55
xesM4rtinK:01:55
xesM4rtinK: just found the scripts01:56
XDS2010Estel_:  it says required diskspace isn't enough ? thats not possible01:56
XDS2010im not connected in mass storage or pc suite mode either01:57
Estel_rootfs not full?01:57
XDS2010nope01:58
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XDS2010ah i see the error :)02:01
XDS2010checksum mismatch Estel_02:01
XDS2010hash sum rather02:01
Estel_yea.02:01
XDS2010how do i fix ?02:01
Estel_~mirrors02:01
infobotmirror is, like, http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error02:01
XDS2010:)02:01
Estel_use latest02:01
Estel_last*02:01
XDS2010k02:01
Estel_extras-devel.merlin etc02:01
XDS2010ty02:02
XDS2010cli to direct ?02:02
XDS2010can i just plugin a direct command to download or do i still need to add them ?02:02
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MacerEstel_: huh?02:07
Maceroh. you mean me asking why there isn't any expansion into other hardware?02:09
DocScrutinizer05Martix: don't get trolled, there's no "xxx hours of coding" time needed to implement a sql db table with filename as primary key and start offset in bytes as second field in the record, then use seek() and write()/read() to get the tile you want. after all it's a grow-only delete-never set of data and sql already gets used. I gather the whole thing takes ~10 lines of code and maybe 30 min max02:10
Maceri suppose considering i am not a developer... but it is still a suggestion. or are we to stop giving those too?02:10
DocScrutinizer05Macer: I guess it's been -ETAB02:11
Maceroh02:12
Macershe was talking to someone else heh02:12
Macer-ETAB ?02:12
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DocScrutinizer05<tab> nick-expansion02:12
Maceroh02:12
Maceryah02:12
Macerwhen is this new ubuntu phone coming out?02:13
jacekowskiEstel_: point people towards new rmo when they have hash sums problem02:14
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: ack02:14
Macerhttp://global.christianpost.com/news/ubuntu-phone-release-date-set-for-april-2014-87649/02:14
Macerapril 2014 lol02:14
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: though, is it really working when you use IP instead URL in catalogs?02:14
Estel_jacekowski,  sure, just habit due to last month or so :P02:15
Estel_ip works for catalogs02:15
Estel_what was that ip?02:15
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: I guess it will work just fine with /etc/hosts hack, but with IP instead URL I'm not so sure02:16
Estel_at least in fapman it does02:16
* Estel_ checks ip from own catalogs02:16
DocScrutinizer05I feel temped to kick again02:16
Estel_Macer,  ubuntu phone is going to be a shit - no Ui compatibility with anything from desktop, even 2x2x pixel wide02:17
DocScrutinizer05<Estel_> ip works for catalogs <Estel_> at least in fapman it does02:17
Estel_deesktop mode when conencted to tv is only fake02:17
DocScrutinizer05shows clearly why fapman is shit and nobody understands what HAM is actually doing02:18
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  so kick and stop boring me? if contributing to testing new repos is reason to kick, do it and, later, go and fap man.02:18
Estel_so what? I just said that it works in fapman, your constant kicking pestering is pathetic.02:18
MacerEstel_: the same was said for android using a non X based ui02:18
Estel_go and contribute yourself by mtesting it in ham.02:18
Macerthat seemed to work out well :)02:18
Estel_android work out well? wrong target group, i think02:19
DocScrutinizer05go and fuck yourself02:19
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Estel_I'm off for today, enough of DocScrutinizer05 bullshit today - remember to take your pills tomorrow guy, as today you're unbearable.02:19
MacerEstel_: yeah i mean worked as far as continuing on without dying02:19
Macerdo you think maemo would have died had nokia sold as many N900s as HTC sold G1s?02:20
* xes is looking for the train.....is it arriving?02:20
Macerthen again though... i'm sure you can blame poor marketing on the part of nokia for that whereas googel was all hyped up at the time02:20
GeneralAntillesProbably02:20
GeneralAntillesMaemo dying didn't have much to do with Maemo02:21
GeneralAntillesBut more to do with Symbian's performance and Microsoft offering boatloads of cash.02:21
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Macereither way i am sure the advent of giant companies jumping onboard helped02:22
RST38hHi General, Macer02:22
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: just in case more than just this one fool didn't understand my concerns: HAM is testing repository against signing key. I suspect thet URL might be a part of that test02:22
MacerRST38h: hey :)02:22
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DocScrutinizer05that*02:23
Macereither way... given the fact that it seems possible it would be awesome for maemo and ubuntu to get together in order to produce a great finished product02:23
Macersomething worthwhile to the cattle02:23
RST38hForget Maemo for now, look at this little gem:02:23
RST38h"If you've done what you want for Ubuntu, then move on. That's normal  there's no need to poison the well behind you just because you want to try something else." -- Mark Shuttleworth to Ubuntu contributors02:23
Macerlol02:23
Macerseems like good advice02:24
RST38hMark Shuttleworth lays an egg. News at 11.02:24
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RST38hMacer: Yeah, remember what happened to Gnome after their head cheese made similar advice to Gnome users?02:24
MartixDocScrutinizer05: I agree, it's easyjob02:25
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DocScrutinizer05easy like hello-world02:25
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rm_youanyone here in Spain? and/or, has ever taken the AVE trains / Renfe trains?02:30
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: well, we are signing with official keys and with hosts hack there is no way to tell those two apart (from ham perspective)02:30
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DocScrutinizer05renfe, yes, but decades ago02:30
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MacerRST38h: not really. i didn't like gnome that much :)02:31
Macerdidn't keep up02:31
Macerdid he have an exodus of people to kde/qt? heh02:31
Macereither way... the ubuntu phones actually look kind of neat02:31
Macerbut i'll believe it when i see it ;)02:31
Macerheh02:31
MacerRead more at http://global.christianpost.com/news/ubuntu-phone-release-date-set-for-april-2014-87649/#12PFTfqb13woX1Db.9902:31
Macergrr02:31
Maceri seriously need to find out how they're doing that02:31
Macerwhen you copy txt it pastes the address instead of the txt02:31
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DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: yes, that's what I said: /etc/hosts hack will most probably work02:31
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rm_youDocScrutinizer05: heh, trying to buy tickets, not sure wtf is with the P/P+ tickets, and deciding between the Estrella overnight or the AVE high speed, to get from Barcelona to Madrid02:31
RST38hMacer: I am getting "Nigeria Archbishop Renounces Execution Order and Calls for more Aggressive Response02:32
RST38hRead more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/nigeria-archbishop-renounces-execution-order-and-calls-for-more-aggressive-response-20/#MeDsMVditLpDMhvw.9902:32
Maceryeah... wtf? :)02:32
DocScrutinizer05rm_you: no idea, sorry02:32
RST38hMacer: Has Shuttleworth moved to Nigeria and become an archbishop?02:32
Macerthat woudl be awesome!02:32
rm_younp, will just keep asking the channel02:32
Macertalk about a strange twist haha02:32
Macerhttp://global.christianpost.com/news/ubuntu-phone-release-date-set-for-april-2014-87649/02:32
Macerthat was the article about the ubuntu phones02:32
rm_youthis channel is my best bet for advice about European stuff >_>02:32
DocScrutinizer05rm_you: alas javispedro isn't around anymore02:32
Maceron christianpost.com? :)02:32
rm_youqgil would know too :P02:33
rm_youdoesn't he have a place in Barcelona?02:33
DocScrutinizer05might be02:33
Macerhttp://www.news24.com/Technology/News/Ubuntu-phone-coming-with-new-ecosystem-2013030602:33
Macerthat looks a bit qtish02:33
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RST38hHave they rewritten Qt already?02:33
Macerlol02:34
Macerlike java?02:34
Macer:)02:34
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Maceri'm just saying. going by that pic... it looks like symbian belle heh02:34
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* Macer sheds a tear for belle02:35
Macerthe little symbian that should have02:35
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MacerCollins: Ubuntu for smartphones is currently an early build which we will continue to develop over the coming months. At the moment, we recommend that only experienced developers flash their spare phones (Nexus 4 and Google Nexus models) with Ubuntu.02:37
Maceri wonder if they got motorola to make them an ubuntu phone heh02:38
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XDS2010is there a way i can just ignore the hash sum issue ?02:50
XDS2010just need to get this damn backupmenu deb installed02:51
XDS2010~mirrors02:51
infobotfrom memory, mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error02:51
XDS2010i added the mirrors and still have hash sum issues02:52
XDS2010Estel_:  can u help ?02:56
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DocScrutinizer05XDS2010: some wise man said "when HAM or apt throws error about hashsum, the file already got downloaded to /var/apt/cache [or sth like that]. Just go find it and install with dpkg -i "03:04
XDS2010:-/ tried that it didn't work03:05
DocScrutinizer05XDS2010: btw you're not supposed to add "the mirrors" but only *one* of them03:05
XDS2010maybe the file got misplaced somehow03:05
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1315931&postcount=403:05
XDS2010this is what i did03:05
DocScrutinizer05particularly extras-devel.merlin1991.at03:05
XDS2010yea i added that03:06
DocScrutinizer05and nothing else?03:06
XDS2010thats all i added yea03:06
XDS2010as -user03:06
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DocScrutinizer05then disable extras-devel and fine you are03:06
DocScrutinizer05if you done it in HAM's "add catalogs"03:07
DocScrutinizer05should work afaik03:07
XDS2010AFAYK!?03:07
DocScrutinizer05:shrug:03:07
XDS2010blind leading blind in hear03:08
DocScrutinizer05do you need a written warranty?03:08
XDS2010here*03:08
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  if this doesn't get fixed im going to lose 200$ so yea kinda would like one of those03:08
DocScrutinizer05or better ask estel who's never doubting any of his own statements ;-P03:08
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  :-/  sorry its the end of the day im in a cranky mood03:09
DocScrutinizer05which doesn't mean his advice is any better, but maybe you feel better when he tells you how to solve your issues03:09
XDS2010i wish i had a gun and a bullseye target right now03:10
XDS2010ok let me try removing devel03:10
DocScrutinizer05you shall not remove it03:11
DocScrutinizer05you shall listen to what people advice03:11
DocScrutinizer05I said "disable"03:11
XDS2010ok thank you for the clarification03:11
XDS2010advise*03:11
XDS2010:P03:12
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  do you think i should sell it ?03:12
DocScrutinizer05actually I said "disable in HAM catalogs" - though that's been not that verbatim03:12
XDS2010:-/ i have cold feet03:12
DocScrutinizer05then keep it, it makes for a nice warming pad when you run weird stuff on it03:13
rm_youDocScrutinizer05: know anything about DBBahn trains?03:15
DocScrutinizer05honstly, I don't get it what's your problem. N900 is unbrickable (virtually). It also has a builtin backup app that's pretty fine for doing backup of all your contacts and messages and accounts and appointments and stuff03:16
DocScrutinizer05rm_you: a bit more, sounds familiar03:16
DocScrutinizer05rm_you: shoot03:17
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  im trying to get a 4s on a9406. im going after the blue unicorn. I wanna find the bitch and catch her.03:17
nox-rm_you, the official java applet or what its called more or less runs in the emulator, and there are other timetable apps too03:18
DocScrutinizer05XDS2010: are you sure your current state is the right one to mess with catalogs and stuff?03:18
rm_younox-: oh, neat03:18
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  no :)03:18
DocScrutinizer05rm_you: fahrplan uses DB web interface03:18
rm_youDocScrutinizer05: trying to figure out what "open saloon" "open saloon with table" and such is, and if it matters if we're buying 2nd class tickets03:19
nox-yeah fahrplan was the one iirc03:19
DocScrutinizer05rm_you: 1st class is twice as expensive and usually not worth it except when you have too much money to spend03:19
nox-there are a few seats that have a table, gives you more legroom iirc03:19
nox-(this in 2nd class)03:20
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nox-usually they're sold out quickly tho03:20
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nox-the seats with table03:20
DocScrutinizer05open saloon probably is a ICE waggon with no partitions03:20
nox-yeah03:20
nox-thats also what i would think03:20
DocScrutinizer05there are seats like in airplane, and some 4 -seat combos with a table in between03:21
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  it seems Backupmenu is in the testing devel repo. Is there a mirror for that ?03:21
DocScrutinizer05XDS2010: there's *no* app in testig that's not also in devel03:21
XDS2010i think i found one03:21
DocScrutinizer05since there is no other way for an app to go to testing other than via devel repo03:22
DocScrutinizer05that's why I told you nobody needs testing repo03:22
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  is there a way to have the app manager not check for updates every time i open it?03:22
DocScrutinizer05no03:22
XDS2010well that sucks03:23
XDS2010what a waist of time03:23
DocScrutinizer05yeah, but it's not meant to get opened and closed 7 times a day anyway03:23
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  what if you are a developer working on the appmanager itself03:23
XDS2010that would SUCK03:24
DocScrutinizer05open it, select catalogs from menu, click "maemo extras" catalog, check "disable". Click 2add catalog", enter the details for merlin catalog, click OK, klick OK, ... wait ...03:25
XDS2010.... wait03:25
XDS2010........ wait some more03:25
DocScrutinizer057 minutes03:25
XDS2010see a trend ?03:25
DocScrutinizer05no, I don't see any trend03:25
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XDS20107 minutes each time you open it!?03:26
DocScrutinizer05I just see you're complaining about sth I can't change03:26
XDS2010yea :-/03:26
XDS2010cranky03:26
DocScrutinizer05so I get tired of listening03:26
XDS2010im in rare form tonight03:26
DocScrutinizer05theheck, when I tell you it takes 7 minutes, your answer should be "FINE! time to prepare me a coffee! sth I planned to do since an hour or so"03:27
XDS2010DocScrutinizer05:  its the point of wasting energy for a process that just does not need to be run a billion times on a billion devices :-/  not saying you're wrong here just a major PITA for some03:31
XDS2010then again i could be wrong03:32
DocScrutinizer05ping me tomorry. Sorry i'm busy now03:33
XDS2010ok03:34
XDS2010still not working grrrr03:36
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XDS2010is there some other easier solution to do a baremetal backup ?03:41
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XDS2010i have access to a linux box if that makes any difference03:44
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Estel_XDS, you may tar your rootfs and optfs manually, ommiting unnecessary directories03:50
Estel_but backupmenu installation MUST work03:50
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ManoftheSea_Hello03:51
ManoftheSea_I've been running into a problem with my n900...  it claims I have broken packages, when I run apt-get, it tells me keys are expired.  Is there a known fix?03:52
XDS2010ManoftheSea_:  welcome to my hell03:53
ManoftheSea_your hell?  Who died and put you in charge? :)03:53
XDS2010ManoftheSea_:  Poseidon himself03:53
ManoftheSea_that's not hell, that's the sea03:53
XDS2010Well then welcome to your hell03:54
ManoftheSea_hooray.  Time to change the window dressing!03:54
ManoftheSea_So... it's a known issue with no current fix?03:54
ManoftheSea_awesome.03:54
XDS2010WIP03:55
ManoftheSea_yep.03:55
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DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: no way03:58
DocScrutinizer05there's several known fixes03:58
DocScrutinizer05~mirrors03:59
infobothmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error03:59
ManoftheSea_now I've got "BADSIG 4v1"03:59
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: btw your report doesn't sound exactly like "problems"04:00
ManoftheSea_hmm?  problem, singular?  or is it not a problem at all?04:01
DocScrutinizer05there's no pending update, particularly no security update, not even a minor pkg update pending. The "broken packages" message doesn't seem to have any negative consequences in itself04:02
Estel_but, expired keys are just warning04:02
ManoftheSea_well, I can't install things.  That's a problem.04:02
DocScrutinizer05to put it straight: is anything except HAM not working for you?04:02
DocScrutinizer05aah, ok. You want to install something04:03
Estel_official repos are... wait, why I'm writing this, Council member is here, so he could explain POLITELY to a new user why things are looking like that04:03
DocScrutinizer05well, that's a tiny bit complicated though not impossible right now04:03
Estel_will be a difference from arguing over nonsense and kicking people from channel ;)04:03
DocScrutinizer05will be fixed in a week the latest04:03
ManoftheSea_Yes.  Apt-get wouldn't install, faster-application-manager wouldn't install.04:04
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: yeah, why you ewaste your time writing such provocant bullshit? begging for another kick?04:04
Estel_eh, as it doesn't seems like you're going to get meaningful info - for now, you can a) use fapman b) "hack" your /etc/hosts and point repos to new IP, as dns is not updated, and, despite what DocScrutinizer05 said, no one know if it will be in week time...04:04
Estel_c) use mirrors as per:04:04
Estel_~mirrors04:05
infobothmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error04:05
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-08 02:59:08] <DocScrutinizer05> ~mirrors04:05
DocScrutinizer05[2013-03-08 02:59:10] <infobot> hmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error04:05
DocScrutinizer05more provocant BS04:05
Estel_in latest case, remember to disable normal repos though (only those that get mirrored, not nokia apps, for example)04:05
ManoftheSea_esaym153: are you saying I'm the "new user"?04:05
ManoftheSea_er, Estel_04:05
ManoftheSea_damn tab-complete04:05
Estel_ManoftheSea_,  new to the subject04:05
Estel_of broken repos04:05
Estel_(it's like that since month or so)04:06
Estel_not necessary to N900 :) I also haven't seen youa round irc, thus "new" part04:06
DocScrutinizer05more BS04:06
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ManoftheSea_ok.  I've been here before, but not frequently.  Also, yeah, I probably haven't tried to get new packages for that long.  Just check updates every once in a while, and haven't seen anything show up.04:07
* Estel_ nods04:07
ManoftheSea_I recently wanted to grab syncevolution, and then started with problems.04:07
ManoftheSea_well, problem singular.04:07
Estel_well, no new packages for simillar time, as autobuilder was (and is, although THIS thing may get fixed in this week) down04:07
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: go for extras-devel.merlin1991.at, or check our great new repo at IPHH04:08
DocScrutinizer05which got fixed hashsums yesterday04:08
Estel_so new packages were distributed via .deb's or .tar's on TMO04:08
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  he need IP for new great04:08
Estel_which you haven't provided him ;)04:09
ManoftheSea_Thanks doc04:09
DocScrutinizer05ORLY?!04:09
ManoftheSea_I'm reading the thread.04:09
Estel_also, are you sure that domain will get redirected in a week time? :)04:09
ManoftheSea_Estel_: I use an n900, I'm willing to be patient and learn.  You're a little angry.  Say woosah, take some time for yourself.04:09
Estel_I wouldn't tell people with such certainity, that they could start using old repo adress in week.04:09
Estel_ManoftheSea_,  I'm angry at you? 0_o?04:09
DocScrutinizer05yeah, since you got no idea what we're actually doing04:10
DocScrutinizer05and what we *can* do, or plan to do04:10
DocScrutinizer05you prefer to spill shit on others04:10
Estel_I'm just a little tongue-in-check about DocScrutinizer05, which was quite unbearable for last few hours, but I don't necessary see how it radiates on you ManoftheSea_ ;)04:11
rm_youanyone have experience with Vueling air?04:11
Estel_with doing what to air?04:11
rm_youlol04:11
rm_youit's a Spanish airline04:11
ManoftheSea_doc, IPHH?04:12
Estel_:) 0 experience04:12
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: mompls04:12
Estel_IPHH is company that provided Maemo with free hosting04:12
Estel_...with DocScrutinizer05 encourage you to use as jacekowski (autobuilder maintainer) asked, yet, still failed to provide you with IP address :P04:13
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: http://213.128.137.28/showthread.php?p=132529704:13
ManoftheSea_is there a reason I'd want to go back to repo.maemo.org, or can I set the mirrors and forget about the issue?04:13
Estel_mirrors won't get updated very soon, while new packages may start to appear in week time or so04:14
Estel_some minor appeared already04:14
Estel_minor ones*04:14
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Estel_mirrors probably will keep being frozen for some time04:14
DocScrutinizer05dear estel, sir, this is since *I* know a IP alone won't suffice. Unlike *you*04:14
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DocScrutinizer05that's why i'm looking for *decent* info for ManoftheSea_ whom I know since long from here in irc04:15
Estel_whatever you mean by that sentence, I dully accept it and like your polite tone :)04:15
DocScrutinizer05well, if you don't know what that sentence means, you're more dull than I thought04:15
ManoftheSea_(dully) lol04:15
Estel_ManoftheSea_,  what do you expect at this hour ;)04:16
Estel_anyway, goodbye, for good tonight :) have fun and don't went berseker, some of you! ;)04:16
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1327342#post132734204:17
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: you need further explanaitons for >> patch your /etc/hosts.<< ?04:18
ManoftheSea_no, that's sensible to me.04:19
ManoftheSea_213.128.137.22, as it says in that thread.04:19
ManoftheSea_hmm... it looked almost like T-mo was blocking me from using skeiron... got a gateway timeout on WCDMA, but worked on wifi...04:20
DocScrutinizer05yep, basically just do `echo 213.128.137.22 repository.maemo.org >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root04:20
* ManoftheSea_ says no extra info needed. Doc, being such a great guy, gives extra info anyway.04:20
DocScrutinizer05the new repo is supposed to have no hashsum errors04:21
DocScrutinizer05if it doesn't work, fallback to merlin mirror as of above04:22
DocScrutinizer05if it works for you, you're welcome to stay on that repo, it will become 'official' in a week or two anyway04:22
DocScrutinizer05and it actually might have some new packages that aren't available anywhere else04:23
DocScrutinizer05since we got autobuilder to work it seems04:23
ManoftheSea_I'm checking for updates now.04:24
ManoftheSea_Also, I think you'd helped me with the "broken usb" problem too.  Ultimate solution was to lift and shift the OS to a new, cosmetically damaged n900.04:24
ManoftheSea_I don't mind that it's got a scratch, as long as I still have my linux pocket computer.04:25
DocScrutinizer05:-)04:25
ManoftheSea_Thanks Doc.  It looks like the hosts edit has resolved the "bad key" or "expired key" messages.04:34
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ManoftheSea_I had a chance to mess with a nexus 4 recently... I came back to n900.  Even for $0.04:34
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GeneralAntillesManoftheSea_, Android is truly horrid.04:37
ManoftheSea_Per-process mounts.04:37
ManoftheSea_without a location for shared mounts.04:37
ManoftheSea_The walled garden isn't even very nice...04:38
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ManoftheSea_can't find libpcre3... should I have both CSSU and CSSU_testing on?04:41
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: thanks for report about rmo_*new*. Glad to hear it works for you04:42
DocScrutinizer05~rmo-new is do `echo 213.128.137.22 repository.maemo.org >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root04:43
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay04:43
DocScrutinizer05~literal mirrors04:43
infobot"#maemo mirrors" is "<reply>see mirror"04:43
DocScrutinizer05~literal mirror04:44
infobot"#maemo mirror" is "http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error"04:44
DocScrutinizer05~#maemo mirror is also see ~rmo-new04:44
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay04:44
DocScrutinizer05~mirror04:44
infoboti guess mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new04:44
DocScrutinizer05~rmo-new is also http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1327342#post132734204:45
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0504:45
DocScrutinizer05moinmoin GeneralAntilles04:45
ManoftheSea_so... I can't find libpcre3 because it's not mirrored?  Or I don't have the right mirror?04:49
DocScrutinizer05I never heard of libpcre304:50
DocScrutinizer05but the mirrors are just that: mirrors. They shouldn't lack anything that been there on source repo 8 weeks ago#04:51
DocScrutinizer05well, merlin's repo is actually more than just a mirror, he rebuilt the .desc files04:52
thedead1440hmm libpcre3 is from official nokia repos04:52
DocScrutinizer05stll no reason why any pkg could miss04:52
DocScrutinizer05ooooh04:52
thedead1440its not from rmo so why can't you find it ManoftheSea_?04:53
DocScrutinizer05key expired problem?04:53
thedead1440i don't think so; it was installed for me but apt-get install -d --reinstall and it downloaded fine04:53
DocScrutinizer05hmm04:54
DocScrutinizer05nfc04:54
thedead1440apt-cache search also revealed it04:54
thedead1440maybe some typo by ManoftheSea_04:54
DocScrutinizer05ManoftheSea_: yeah, try apt-cache search04:54
DocScrutinizer05with substring04:54
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DocScrutinizer05don't forget apt-get update! ;-)04:55
ManoftheSea_So the official repo should still be engaged?04:55
DocScrutinizer05the nokia ones yes04:55
* DocScrutinizer05 thought they can't get disabled anyway04:56
thedead1440iirc you can disable them in HAM but i haven't used HAM since mid-Jan so not sure04:58
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ManoftheSea_ALRIGHT!  I seem to be fully fixed.  Thanks be to you, DocScrutinizer0505:03
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DocScrutinizer05yw, thanks for testing05:03
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Macerim actually really excited about the ubuntu phones05:18
Maceri wonder if they will have xtterm and a gnu userland05:18
Macerlike maemo05:18
HurrianMacer: it's an Android userland05:19
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DocScrutinizer05lol, gnu userland05:19
Macerwow really? thats no fun05:19
Macerheh05:19
DocScrutinizer05that's canonical, Macer!05:19
Macer:)05:19
Macerwell.. i just mean it would be nice to have the arm repo05:20
Macersimilar to maemo05:20
Maceralthough it was interesting to hear theyre dropping xorg05:20
Macerfor the other method... cant remember05:20
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HurrianMir.05:20
DocScrutinizer05interesting? :-o05:20
Macerthe one all linux should have swapped to years ago05:20
Maceryes05:20
Macerit is a goood thing05:20
DocScrutinizer05suuure05:21
Macerleave it to linux to cling to obsolete things :)05:21
HurrianI have no idea why Canonical's going with Mir instead of Wayland05:21
Macerlike gtk vs qt05:21
Macerno matter how they try to dress up gtk it still looks like win 3.105:21
Macerqt based stuff looks so much cleaner05:22
DocScrutinizer05no matter what they do to qt>3, it feels like coded by fools05:22
Macermaybe... but it still looks nicer ;)05:22
Maceri mean look at most of the bloated python stuff out there nowadays05:23
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Macerseems to get the job done and doesnt seen to be going anywhere05:23
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Macerseem05:23
DocScrutinizer05honestly, for the few hours my embedded device can run on qt until battery empty, I wouldn't want less than that05:23
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Macerheh... i suppose, but that is a matter of refinement05:24
Macerstill need a base05:24
Macer, and like i said, it05:24
Macerisnt lik05:24
Macerwtf?05:24
Macersorry05:24
Macerit isn't like maemo seems to be expanding to newer platforms any time soon05:25
Macerand last i recall there was a big push to qt in maemo as well05:25
DocScrutinizer05that doesn't make it better05:25
Macerand symbian seems to last a very long time running qt based stuff05:25
Macermaybe not, but more people will buy new than look for something used to try something with05:26
DocScrutinizer05:shrug:05:26
Macerie: you wont find an overabundance of new users clamoring for an old n90005:26
DocScrutinizer05how is that relevant for me?05:26
Macerheh. i guess it isnt if you want to run a platform that only you have and dev on after the rest of the n900s fade out of existance05:27
DocScrutinizer05my friends ask me where to get a new N900. I don't need to impress them with newest model iPhone or whatever05:27
DocScrutinizer05well, while your philosophy sounds like suicide to avoid natural death05:28
Macerand your answer is probably "they dont make them anymore but..."05:28
Macerso to a new user that is most likely a turnoff05:29
DocScrutinizer05again, how's that relevant?05:29
Macernot to mention after the support gathered from what is left of the community...05:29
Macerand the companies providing free hosting give up doing it05:29
Macerit will essentially spell the end of maemo without any community appeal or harsh community reduction05:30
Macerwho don ates if they have nothing to do nate for?05:30
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and you going old and lame and can't see anymore the brilliant UI of your shiny new ubuntu phone. Honestly, what are we talking about?05:30
Macerit is a step in the right direction, maemo should try to jump on the boat with its devs and support05:31
DocScrutinizer05bullshit05:31
DocScrutinizer05take that elsewhere05:31
Macerit means a lot of the maemo base can be integrated05:31
DocScrutinizer05we heard this tune since around 3..4 years now05:32
Macerlike the battery saving techniques etc05:32
Macerand what has happened in 3-4 years other than about 4 abandoned devices and pulled support?05:32
DocScrutinizer05fine! go and integrate it wherever you like. Maybe come back and present the result, and you might actually lure a few of us over on your side05:32
Macerwith maemo on more than nokia, or at least the good bits it continues on and contributes to the ultimate goal05:33
DocScrutinizer05pff05:33
DocScrutinizer05ultimate goal05:33
DocScrutinizer05bwahaha05:33
Macerfine. your choice to be hardheaded05:33
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Macerto each their own05:33
DocScrutinizer05your choice is to come here and try to teach us what to do05:34
Macerim looking at it from an economics point of view, wasnt telling you what to do, but making a suggestion05:35
Macerno customers = no money and support05:35
DocScrutinizer05who cares?05:35
DocScrutinizer05isn't my money05:35
* Macer facepalm05:35
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Maceryeah05:35
Macerthat is a big point. it isnt your money05:35
DocScrutinizer05so honestly what you're trying to sell to us here?05:36
Macerim not selling you anything... i am just saying that the work maemo has done can contribute to a continued existance of a real linux device05:37
Macerinstead of fading into non existance, it could be a community revival05:37
DocScrutinizer05smae old lame "why do you bother about telepathy on maemo? come over to meego and do it better on that platform, it's the future!" tune?05:37
Macerwith... more hardware to work with05:37
Macermaybe... but better than sitting around doing nothing but trying to sell Hummer SUVs when nobody wants them anymore ;)05:38
rm_youcoming in halfway through here, though I can't help but see Macer's point >_>05:38
DocScrutinizer05xprism: yes, SHR got ported to N90005:38
Macermaemo is great05:38
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Macerit would be a shame to see it die05:38
rm_youit's already dieing now... <_<05:39
rm_youno real infusion in sight05:39
Macerright now ubuntu runs on android devices05:39
DocScrutinizer05Macer: you can sell whatever you want, to whomever you want. But I don't buy your "take the alternative" preaching. since there is no alternative05:39
Maceractual devices coming soon. not just the n9 like meego05:39
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Maceri am not saying take the alternative05:40
Macerbut to disregard the opportunity ...05:40
Macereven if you dont jump onboard05:40
Macerit would still be unwise not to even consider the ability to find new hardware05:40
Macersimplu due to either pride or hardheadedness05:41
Macersimply05:41
DocScrutinizer05Macer: and maemo will die from guys like you suggesting we all bin our N900 and move on to something else, since "maemo on N900 is dieing anyway, so why stay here?"05:41
Macerim not saying that either05:41
Macern900 is a great device05:41
Macerif it doesnt break on you05:41
Snafu777Mine ain't broke05:42
Macerbut the simple fact is... it isnt being made anymore05:42
Snafu777I love my n90005:42
DocScrutinizer05SO WHAT?05:42
Macerplus... who is to say you cant bring some of the ubuntu code to the n900 as well?05:42
Snafu777There will most likely always be parts for it05:42
* Macer sighs05:42
DocScrutinizer05too bad for you that yours broke and you can't find a new one05:42
Macervery well05:42
Maceri can05:42
Macerno point in arguing with a stone head05:43
Macerpatience is a virtue05:43
DocScrutinizer05Macer: you're not arguing, you can't even make a clear statement what's your point05:43
Macerif you cant find the point then there is no point in continuing the conversation05:44
Macerlike i said... to each their own05:44
DocScrutinizer05((<Macer> it is a step in the right direction, maemo should try to jump on the boat with its devs and support)) how the fsck would that look like?05:45
Maceryoure a dev, i majored in economics.. not cs.. and see no good endgame to maemo05:45
Macerbut you made your position clear05:45
Macerso.... the end.05:45
DocScrutinizer05yeah. the end. Like I said above, you're free to port the FOSS bits of maemo to wherever you like. And after you've done, come back here and present your achievements. That's the *only* way to convince somebody in here to follow you05:46
Macerbut i will leave you with... maemo4 maemo5 meego.. ultimate limitations to awesome mobile operating systems: viable continuing hardware05:47
Macerno need05:47
DocScrutinizer05well, council will not declare maemo dead and suggest every maemo community member gets an ubuntu phone now and start to port maemo to it05:48
Macerdidnt say that either05:49
DocScrutinizer05so I really don't see what's all your bickering all about05:49
Macerbut that is how you see it05:49
Macerso be it05:49
Macerif you cant see the obvious vision.. then live blindly05:49
DocScrutinizer05not everybody who can't see your visions is blind05:49
DocScrutinizer05s/visions/delusions/05:50
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: not everybody who can't see your delusions is blind05:50
Snafu777Unless I can packet inject I would never switch05:50
MacerSnafu777: lol!05:50
Macerfair enough :)05:50
Snafu777N900 is one of a kind05:50
Snafu777Only phone of its kind in the world05:50
Snafu777Until somebody invents a kernel that works for packet injection on another cell phone, this community will be around for a long long time05:52
Macermaybe later when someone ports ubuntu to it you will still be able to do it lol05:52
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders why it's always those who don't own a (working) N900 who come here ans suggest "maemo should jump there, maemo should go this way..."05:52
Snafu777Why would I want Ubuntu?05:52
Snafu777I have a Linux environment on my phone tht works perfect05:53
MacerDocScrutinizer05: you misunderstand, having had 2 the n900 and maemo is awesome05:53
DocScrutinizer05as if maemo was a person05:53
Snafu777Granted, I hate the NAND concept but its easy to bypass05:53
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: herd mentality? They think they should drag you out of your comfort too so you suffer with them :p05:53
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: sounds exaclty like that to me, yeah05:54
Macerlol.. but one must consider the future of maemo, which in your case is relicing it to the n900 instead of seeing a way to expand it to other hardware05:54
DocScrutinizer05Macer: there IS NO future of maemo05:54
Macerwow05:54
Macerlol05:54
Macervery well05:54
Macerthat sums it up right there05:54
Snafu777Why would you?  Unless u have a chipset that supports injection.... Viva 802.1105:54
Macernow i see your point05:55
Snafu777Me?05:55
Macerno05:55
MacerDocScrutinizer0505:55
thedead1440Snafu777: i remember SGS2 supporting injection drivers FWIW; i've played around with disconnecting some connections and intercepting data via the same WiFi network at home on my S205:56
Snafu777Can u reliably inject?05:56
Snafu777Can u reliably do monitor mode05:56
Macerwell then DocScrutinizer05 you will hear no more of this type of talk from me. you should have just said that in the very beginning heh05:56
Snafu777Can you run airbase ng05:57
Snafu777The n900 is very unique05:57
DocScrutinizer05maemo will stay the way it's now for several years on. And eventually some parts like hildon-desktop might get ported to other platforms. There's no second life for maemo though, on any new hw05:57
Macerlike i said.. you made your point05:58
DocScrutinizer05there wasn't even a maemo future on meego devices05:58
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thedead1440Snafu777: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1282900  the S2 iirc is the only other phone that uses the same WiFi chip as the N900 hence the similar possibilities. And I'm not telling you to switch but widening your view of alternatives that do the same thing06:02
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Snafu777That sounds like MITM stuff06:04
Snafu777Not packet injection DDR06:04
Snafu777dude rather06:04
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Snafu777thedead1440??06:06
thedead1440the same developer has packet injection too; you have to donate though first just like the MITM stuff. I only paid for MITM as i wanted to test if it really works on a droid.06:06
thedead1440i tried this out like iirc 4months back; maybe you want to read up to see how reliable it is06:07
Estel_thedead1440,  do you recall where one can grab fremantle scratchbox virtual image?06:07
Estel_tablet.dev seems down06:07
thedead1440Estel_:06:08
thedead1440http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo-dev-env-downloads/06:08
thedead1440just add skeiron.org/ to any url and its the same thing except for repos which are skeiron.org/repo/06:09
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thedead1440Also Estel_ mirrors wont remain frozen; they would sync with new rmo once its up on its feet. i'm sure merlin would do the same too. the sync is off as you don't want to hammer something thats still not fully up06:10
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Estel_thedead1440,  thanks06:12
thedead1440np06:12
Estel_btw, what is the reason for syncing repos with rmo?06:12
Estel_all the time, I mean, when it's working reliably?06:12
Estel_(instead of syncing every week, for example)06:12
Estel_don't we trust its reliability?06:13
thedead1440so that they are up-to-date06:13
thedead1440are things really stable as of now?06:13
Estel_sure, that's good point, I'm just curious if it won't keep many people from switching back to new rmo06:13
thedead1440no once everything is 100% done ofcourse skeiron would go hidden or whatever06:13
* Estel_ nods06:14
Estel_that makes sense06:14
* Estel_ just glaned chanlog06:14
thedead1440skeiron wasn't supposed to last even till end of January06:14
DocScrutinizer05I won't wase my money for guys to bitch about it06:14
DocScrutinizer05waste even06:14
Estel_lol @ Macer, every week he is here and try to sell us some device06:14
Estel_mostly non-existing ones06:14
thedead1440its thanks to DocScrutinizer05 who said not to let it go down and keep maintaining it06:14
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thedead1440and of course thanks to brkn for maintaining it ;)06:15
Estel_last time it was android, (existing), before firefox os :P06:15
Estel_btw, does maemo plan to host things like those dev bits mirrored at skeiron?06:15
thedead1440if maemo gets all the go-aheads required from Nokia of course it'll host *everything*06:16
DocScrutinizer05we would like to, but it's pretty unclear if Nokia is willing to allow06:16
* thedead1440 ideally wonders what happened to Macer's FOIA request...06:17
DocScrutinizer05after all the domain ends in nokia.com06:17
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DocScrutinizer05btw tabletsdev.maemo.org been the stage for tablets-dev.nokia.com06:18
Estel_the nokia go-ahead is what I'm worried about06:18
Estel_not that they would like to say "no"06:18
Estel_I'm worried about silence06:18
thedead1440Estel_: only HiFo have a proper idea of what's exactly going on with Nokia afaik; I don't think even Council know all about the discussions but i could be wrong though06:19
DocScrutinizer05nemein took it down due to "detected security issueas"06:20
Estel_hifo have idea about it? optimist :)06:20
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DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: no, your're not wrong06:20
Estel_thedead1440,  thanks anyway for patiently explaining, I'm out of those formalities loop, kinda06:20
thedead1440Estel_: I read Council meeting logs and you are on that chan too so its just reading logs instead of being in loop :p06:21
Estel_question from totally different barrel... lets say that I would like to have full dev enviromnent (but for maemo only) on device - so developing for N900 on n900. I could even dedicated separate partition for big bits. Any caveats?06:21
Estel_I must admit that council meetings logs were not in my circle of interest since ages, with one exception, once :P06:22
Estel_thats why I'm out of this loop06:22
Estel_I'm on that channel, btw? oh right, I am.06:22
thedead1440lol06:23
Estel_proxy bouncer, so personally I forget :p06:23
thedead1440if you read the logs you would understand maybe half of Doc's own struggles ;) He's working on this stuff almost like 20hours a day.06:25
Estel_as for developing, of course I'm setting up vm on desktop, but I would like being able to do so while travelling with N90006:25
Estel_noticed that06:25
Estel_and kudos and respect for that, while spanking for other things :P06:25
thedead1440so give him a break instead of spoiling his remaining 4 hours :p06:25
Estel_:P need to spoils it, only one way to put him into sleep06:26
thedead1440lol06:26
Estel_other that singing lulababies, which is quite pervertic.06:26
Estel_perversive*06:27
thedead1440i wouldn't want to be in his shoes of being replying to $Rob while arguing here for something trivial and at the same time facing queries from $tech_staff on access etc...06:29
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thedead1440Estel_: is there something like the Harmattan SDK chroot for developing on the N900? Maybe that could help you out06:30
thedead1440Estel_: i meant something like that: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=8419306:31
DocScrutinizer05called easydeb06:33
thedead1440it it this by same dev (humble): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7154606:35
thedead1440s/it it/is it/06:36
infobotthedead1440 meant: is it this by same dev (humble): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7154606:36
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DocScrutinizer05SUDSER06:50
eccerr0ranyone happen to know how much more ram kernel-power uses?  I'll highly doubt I'll use ntfs, ipv6, isofs, etc.; might have to build my own kernel if I don't want them?06:53
DocScrutinizer05many of those are modules06:54
eccerr0rthat'd be good06:54
DocScrutinizer05ask pali06:55
DocScrutinizer05so far nobody ever complained about KP's RAM-usage ;-)06:55
eccerr0rI was a bit concerned with "booting from other media ext4, xfs, reiserfs" which implies statically compiled, but perhaps they ware in an initramfs or something and can be rmmodded06:55
DocScrutinizer05err, the fs probably are built in06:56
eccerr0rwhile 150K or so for xfs isn't much to 256MB,... it is a good chunk of RAM.06:57
DocScrutinizer05anyway KP needs to fit into NAND kernel partition06:57
DocScrutinizer05sure it's compressed06:58
DocScrutinizer05but honestly I guess there are other mem-hogs that are way worse than any KP06:58
eccerr0rext4                  269830  006:59
DocScrutinizer05hm?06:59
eccerr0rwell, it adds up.06:59
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eccerr0rthat's the x86 size of ext4fs memory footprint07:00
DocScrutinizer05:shrug: on other half of scale you get rid of ext3 driver07:01
DocScrutinizer05I guess07:01
eccerr0rtrue, is possible to upgrade the ext3 to ext407:01
eccerr0rI just don't think I'll use xfs.  I hope nfs is a module07:02
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eccerr0rAt least there's no ACPI interpreter :D07:06
DocScrutinizer05Mem:    245540k total,07:08
DocScrutinizer05on stock kernel07:08
eccerr0rthat would be a good comparison right there.07:09
eccerr0r262144K = 256MB, even the stock kernel burns a lot of ram, so I don't think kp overall couldn't be that much worse07:10
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eccerr0rx86 target for fun: Mem:        250132  (with acpi interpreter)07:11
eccerr0r(also 256MB)07:11
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DocScrutinizer05~botsnack08:39
infobotDocScrutinizer05: aw, gee08:39
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kerioMacer: you actually think that ubuntu moving to Mir is a good thing? what the fuck08:48
tx0hhi08:58
tx0hthe video1 cam isn't very sensitive, right?08:59
tx0hi mean, it's very dark. is there a way to increase sensitivity?08:59
DocScrutinizer05not really09:00
tx0hnot really means?09:00
DocScrutinizer05means it's simply too small and sits "behind sunglasses" even09:01
DocScrutinizer05you can increase exposure time I guess, but that's not resulting in significantly better pictures09:02
tx0hwould it be much better if i would drill a hole?09:02
tx0hthe cam is normaly used as a sensor for correcting the display brightness. right?09:05
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DocScrutinizer05no09:13
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tx0hthere is another sensor for this job?09:14
DocScrutinizer05yes09:14
tx0hwow09:14
keriotx0h: you can actually see it, if you angle the n900 against a light09:17
kerioone is the proximity sensor, the other is the light sensor09:17
kerioall on the side of the front camera09:17
DocScrutinizer05the ALS is really in the corner, next to cam09:19
DocScrutinizer05the other apperture more direction earpiece is the prox sensor09:20
tx0hthe n900 is still a better phone09:20
tx0hbut why did they build such a weak front cam? for video conf it's really unuseable,isn't it?09:23
keriomeh09:24
tx0h:-)09:25
kerioit worksforme09:25
keriobut i don't know if it's nicocam that's doing some magic to the image09:25
kerio...i am, however, directly facing a window09:25
tx0hi took this line from the mirror prg: gst-launch v4l2src device=/dev/video1 ! ffmpegcolorspace ! gamma gamma=2.0 ! videoflip method=4 ! xvimagesink09:26
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tx0hi can't find nicocam in the repository09:28
kerioit's the camera app in cssu testing09:29
tx0hoh, i'm still with stable :-)09:29
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n900-dk_Damn, my n900s fully charged battery was drained during the night :(09:35
kerion900-dk_: was it connected to a wifi network that stopped existing?09:36
kerioaka did your router reboot09:36
n900-dk_no,wifi always online09:36
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n900-dk_I just understand, why I see this issue now - it has always been able to handle a day or so on fully charged bat09:37
n900-dk_s/just/just dont/09:38
infobotn900-dk_ meant: I just dont understand, why I see this issue now - it has always been able to handle a day or so on fully charged bat09:38
Macern900-dk_: i had that same issue due to swapping batteries09:39
Macerbattery eye might help, probably just not trained correctly09:39
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Macerit would steadily decrease then drop 20%09:39
Macerin a vertical line09:40
Maceralso, i had a similar issue with a poor widget09:40
Maceri believe the apnews one09:40
Macerwhich would eat the batter life up09:40
Macerbattery09:40
n900-dk_but I only have conversation and calender widget09:41
Macerdo you or have you swapped batteries?09:41
n900-dk_no09:41
Macermy untrained battery would stay at 0% for like 6 hours heh09:42
n900-dk_guess I will have to buy a new battery09:42
Macerodd... maybe try eliminating the widgets09:42
Macerand check battery eye09:42
Macerit gives you a nice little chart09:42
n900-dk_yeah I know - I like batterygraph better09:42
Macerdidnt see anything awkward?09:42
Macerlike a sudden drop towards the end?09:43
n900-dk_but even uninstalled that on, just to be sure it wasn't the eating one09:43
Macerheh09:43
Macerwell you dont need the battery eye widget running just to get the battery history. and it really doesnt eat much to keep track09:44
n900-dk_no, it is just a very steep curve and fast dropping09:44
Macerwhile asleep?09:44
Macerodd09:44
n900-dk_yes, asleep and not using the phone at all09:45
Maceron my untrained ones i just waited for it to turn off and then charged it fully09:45
Macerdoesnt the one youre using show which apps are eating the most?09:45
n900-dk_no09:45
Macermaybe might be able to determine it from that, otherwise it could be because your battery has reached its eol09:46
n900-dk_can battery eye do that?09:46
Maceri think so, cant remember tbh09:46
Macerit has been a while09:46
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n900-dk_will try to lower the power settings on wifi connection, to see if it has any influence09:48
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Macerit wont ;)09:49
Macernothing you would notice09:49
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tx0hi recently bought 2 batteries. one last for 3+ days while the other one is off in about 24h09:49
Macersleeping my n900 would last forever tho09:49
n900-dk_tx0h: with the same capacity?09:51
tx0hit's the same batteries. but i didn't meassured it09:52
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sixwheeledbeastn900-dk_: still having trouble? hmmm, powertop C4 times are now...?09:53
n900-dk_sixwheeledbeast: yeah, stupid phone :(09:54
sixwheeledbeastn900-dk_: well reflash would prove it's not h/w related.09:56
n900-dk_guess you are right09:58
n900-dk_     C4 |  92.3% |  839.4ms |09:59
n900-dk_seems fine09:59
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sixwheeledbeastn900-dk_ that good maybe get a polarcell?10:02
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sixwheeledbeastanyway good luck g2g to work :(10:03
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keriowork is good10:05
keriothey give you money n shit10:05
jogaoften more shit tho10:07
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DocScrutinizer05n900-dk_: what's with your appstarter-screen? has it enough icons so you can scroll up and down?10:23
DocScrutinizer05n900-dk_: there's a stupid bug in hildon desktop that still isn't fixed in stock maemo afaik: when appstarted (or other screens) don't have enough content to allow scrolling up/down, the kinetic scrolling willl constantly bounce the screen content up and down 0 pixels10:27
DocScrutinizer05which kills battery like nuttin10:27
n900-dk_so it could happend if one of my shortcut icons is on the edge?10:27
DocScrutinizer05and you don't see much activity in anything, since it's mostly gfx engine that runs10:28
DocScrutinizer05only thing with significant activity is X/hildon-desktop iirc10:28
DocScrutinizer05desktop shortcuts? don't think so10:29
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n900-dk_the I'm not sure, I understand what you mean with appstarter-screen..10:29
DocScrutinizer05this bug turned up first time when users installed apmefo or similar to sort their app icons into subfolders, so main appstarted screen became empty10:29
n900-dk_s/the/then/10:29
infobotn900-dk_ meant: then I'm not sure, I understand what you mean with appstarter-screen..10:29
DocScrutinizer05the screen where you start apps10:30
n900-dk_ahh :)10:30
DocScrutinizer05desktop -> taskswitcher -> appstarter10:30
n900-dk_I have 3 rows and can scrool10:31
DocScrutinizer05in cssu hildon desktop this bug got fixed10:31
DocScrutinizer05oh, then this bug doesn't apply to you10:32
n900-dk_I'm on ccsu-t10:32
DocScrutinizer05hah10:32
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DocScrutinizer05oh, then this bug doesn't apply to you10:32
DocScrutinizer05 C4 |  92.3% |  839.4ms |  doesn't look too bad anyway10:33
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n900-dk_wonder if my isp updated my wifi-router to do something stupid. Will try another wifi the next night10:34
DocScrutinizer05next time you should post full pastebin of powertop output10:35
DocScrutinizer05experts here can see details in it you wouldn't notice10:35
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n900-dk_but it seems fine now, but the phone has also been off, since battery was drained10:35
DocScrutinizer05like # of IRQ on different sources10:36
n900-dk_I will :)10:36
DocScrutinizer05also forget battery-eye, what you need is cpu load applet10:37
tx0hmy poertop looks like this: http://pastebin.ca/2329805 is this bad? i have no clue what it means10:37
DocScrutinizer05to have a way to tell unusual cpu load10:37
n900-dk_DocScrutinizer05: can you recommend a cpu load applet?10:37
DocScrutinizer05tx0h: yes, it's KP and thus the freq display upper right is garbled10:38
DocScrutinizer05way too much C0 and too little C410:39
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tx0hwhat is C0 - C4?10:40
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DocScrutinizer05sleep states of CPU10:41
vi__tx0h: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/61110:41
DocScrutinizer05also way too many i2c IRQ, are you on charger?10:41
tx0hty10:42
DocScrutinizer05and FSCK pastebin.ca which wants to set another cookie every 15s10:43
tx0hyes, it's un the charger10:43
tx0hon10:43
DocScrutinizer05then it's all normal10:43
DocScrutinizer05but also meaningless10:44
tx0h:-)10:44
tx0hok, i will have an eye on it10:45
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* b0unc3 good morning11:06
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tx0his it a good time now to switch to cssu ?11:37
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tx0hor is it better to wait?11:38
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biketoolanyone around with experience with backup-menu11:45
tx0hnot me, sry11:45
biketoolI tried installing KP52 and ended up bootlooped11:45
vi__biketool: care to elaborate?11:47
biketoolthen tried backing up from backupmenu but it froze after showing the menu, reflashed got backupmenu installed, backupmenu worked but the reinstall was a bootloop actually two different archives that I put on SD and with backupmenu onto the emmc11:47
vi__Are you running thumb?11:48
biketoolthis is for future fref, I reflashed and ended up spending the day returning to the n900 to get the right repos, reinstall and all the extras like cssu thumb, my webos stuff, flash 10, and 720p vid11:49
biketoolah, running thumb hosed me on the new kernel?11:50
vi__Is kp52 thumb compatible?11:50
biketoolprobably NOT11:50
biketoolstill weird that backupmenu still left me bootlooped11:50
tx0hwhat is thumb and what is kp52?11:50
biketoolespecially after flashing11:51
biketoolkernel-power version 52, the early testing release11:51
vi__you flashed, installed backupmenu, then after restoring your backup there was a bootloop?11:51
biketoolhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=8482911:52
biketoolvi, yep, actually found an earlier archive, reflashed and tried that too11:52
biketoolthen gave up and did the job by hand11:52
biketooltx0h, the url is the announce fr thumb11:53
biketoolthumb takes advantage of a software fixed CPU feature, saves battery and gives a small performance bump11:54
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biketoolI dont know that I have ever actually done a real backupmenu recover, thought I might be missing something11:56
tx0hwow, i need it.11:56
biketoolthumb is cool11:56
tx0hand kp52 is a new kernel?11:56
biketoolyea, it will be on the repos soon probably11:56
biketoolI tried it because I wanted to do automatic bluetooth PAN tether11:57
tx0hi ajust ask myseelf is this the right time to switch to cssu (testing)11:57
DocScrutinizer05biketool: never restore to another kernel that the one the backup been done under11:57
biketoolDoc', so flashing to KP52 hosed my backupmenu booting?11:58
biketooland flashing to a backupmenu archive on cssu from stock flash is also a no-go?11:58
DocScrutinizer05no, restoring KP52 rootfs to a stock kernel hosed your restore11:59
tx0hbiketool: do you think you bricked the n900?11:59
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biketoolit is fine now11:59
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biketooljust wasted every bit of free time for one day to do a full recover12:00
DocScrutinizer05when you do a backup under acme kernel, you need to restore like this: reflash, install BM, *install acme kernel*, only then restore12:00
biketoolrather than 10 min to do a backupmenu repair12:00
tx0hthis backup menu, what does it do? a dd via wireless?12:00
biketoolDoc', ok, thanks for that12:00
DocScrutinizer05tx0h: no, a tar of rootfs and /home12:01
DocScrutinizer05to uSD12:01
tx0hah, ok12:01
DocScrutinizer05(or eMMC, not recommended)12:01
biketooldd from an archive on your sd or mydocs, also does fsck, and allows you to do bulk storage USB to a PC of whole file system12:02
biketoolsuper useful repair tool12:02
biketoolyea, a tar unspooled onto the partition / and  /opt12:03
DocScrutinizer05with that you installed incompatible kernel modules -> bootloop12:03
DocScrutinizer05kernel is _not_ on /12:03
DocScrutinizer05modules are12:03
tx0hshall i wait switching to cssu?12:04
DocScrutinizer05wait for?12:04
tx0hfor better weather?12:04
tx0hi don't know. for stable repository organization12:04
DocScrutinizer05*shrug* - sunny here12:04
DocScrutinizer05use CSSU-S12:04
DocScrutinizer05should work12:04
DocScrutinizer05T might have 'issues'12:05
tx0hat this time the url's changes very often12:05
tx0hbut i like testing12:05
DocScrutinizer05you can 'upgrade' to T later12:05
tx0hhow stale is stable?12:06
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DocScrutinizer05but T uses a new enabler which depends on pkgs from Nokia/extras-devel and that's why it might break12:07
DocScrutinizer05rock solid stable12:07
DocScrutinizer05and not stale12:07
tx0hi just need to change from fremental to fremental-1.312:07
tx0hi did it all the time..12:08
DocScrutinizer05o.O12:08
tx0hi mean the url in /etc/apt/sour*.d/..12:08
DocScrutinizer05you're not even supposed to edit that file12:08
tx0hit works12:09
DocScrutinizer05*shrug*12:09
tx0hi really hate the application manager, it's lame12:09
DocScrutinizer05when a symlink works better for you than the original dir12:09
biketoolcssu has better repo reliability than nokia12:09
biketoolcssu thumb is an upgrad from cssu12:10
biketoolhas always been stable even with someovercloc12:10
biketoolfor me12:10
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tx0his there a roadmap when the new repositories get in place?12:11
DocScrutinizer05sure, OC never been known as particularly instable, it just reduces your CPU's lifetime to 0.01% of what it was without12:11
biketoolI think it is mostly an issue with hash12:12
DocScrutinizer05tx0h: the new repository *is* in place12:12
biketoolok, gotta go, thanks12:12
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tx0hthen cssu-t shouldn't be an issue?12:13
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DocScrutinizer05we can't fix expired Nokia key12:13
tx0hah, nokia's fault. now i got you12:13
tx0hwell, i will try cssu-t now12:14
DocScrutinizer05anyway, just install cssu-s and then switch repo from stable to testing12:15
tx0hi can live with repository missmatch12:15
tx0hhmm..12:15
DocScrutinizer05and do apt-get install mp-communitiy-pr or somesuch12:15
tx0hok, i go with stable and upgrade12:15
DocScrutinizer05this will lift you to T12:15
tx0hbut this doubles the download times12:16
DocScrutinizer05not really, since not many apps will get installed again under T12:16
vi__Does anyone know how to add keysets to the pierogi IR remote program?12:16
vi__I would very much like to add my car.12:17
vi__Or more specifically, can I spam stuff strait to /dev/IRLED?12:17
DocScrutinizer05huh?12:17
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DocScrutinizer05I#d thing it's using LIRC as backend, no?12:18
DocScrutinizer05everybody does12:19
vi__I believe he used a bunch of code from LIRC12:19
DocScrutinizer05sounds nasty12:19
vi__Not really.12:20
vi__It is a very well written program.12:20
DocScrutinizer05CBA to even ponder how a well written program comes with own kernel driver12:20
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DocScrutinizer05anyway irled is driven by a timer/divider aka PWM-generator12:21
vi__I wonder how the tv-begone widget does it.12:22
DocScrutinizer05the rest is most likely up to 'you', i.e. bitbang the data12:22
vi__Yeah.12:22
vi__It is written entirely in python.12:22
DocScrutinizer05realtime in python?? :-o12:22
DocScrutinizer05dafaq12:23
DocScrutinizer05tvbegone afaik using lirc driver12:24
vi__DocScrutinizer05: http://pastebin.com/9xg8R1cs12:25
DocScrutinizer05so what?12:27
DocScrutinizer05did you need me to spot this? ->12:27
DocScrutinizer05               # ioctl: LIRC_SET_SEND_CARRIER12:27
vi__Ok, it does use LIRC.12:27
DocScrutinizer05               fcntl.ioctl (self.lircdev, 0x40046913,12:27
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DocScrutinizer05LIRC driver is nice, since you don't need to bother about timing. You basically send the morse code to lirc12:30
DocScrutinizer05as data12:30
DocScrutinizer05plus the carrier freq12:31
DocScrutinizer0557kHz, 00111011101110101011101110101010000000011101110101010111011101010112:31
DocScrutinizer05obviously you also need to define the slot duration for one digit12:32
DocScrutinizer05hey! didn't even lurk, but compare this now :-D  :12:34
DocScrutinizer05 [ 37037, "301000000000001000000000100000000101111001011110124010000000000010000000001000000001011110010111101",12:34
DocScrutinizer05 [(440, 450), (440, 1310), (440, 74620), (3460, 1760), (3460, 1780)]],12:35
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DocScrutinizer05simon Budig, hmmm. wonder what's been his IRC nick when he came here asking how to implement it12:37
DocScrutinizer05can't recall12:37
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divVerent19:11:30           Estel_ | divVerent,  you're doing it wrong with dosbox13:42
divVerentso expecting the default config to work is wrong?13:42
divVerentsounds rather like a package bug then ;)13:42
divVerentbut seriously the thread has 76 pages... any search terms for the config?13:43
divVerentEstel_: http://wiki.maemo.org/DOSBox looks useful, but I may need more than that... as none of this fixes speed13:45
divVerentthe keyboard fix however is indeed what I need13:45
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divVerentEstel_: also, TIM was somewhat ok performance wise in-game, but the intro at the start was jerky...+14:00
divVerentbut, mouse clicks were not registered at the right position but about 2 blocks below, which is annoying14:00
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vi__DocScrutinizer05: can you explain this@14:05
vi__:14:05
vi__10:34:14 - DocScrutinizer05: hey! didn't even lurk, but compare this now :-D :14:05
vi__10:34:16 - DocScrutinizer05: [ 37037, "301000000000001000000000100000000101111001011110124010000000000010000000001000000001011110010111101",14:05
vi__10:35:20 - DocScrutinizer05: [(440, 450), (440, 1310), (440, 74620), (3460, 1760), (3460, 1780)]],14:05
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divVerentThe following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:14:28
divVerent  epubreader dorian14:28
divVerentThe following packages will be REMOVED:14:28
divVerent  dorian epubreader14:28
divVerentGreat way about sorting things is...14:28
divVerentthat you have so many criteria to do it by!14:28
divVerent(now that I slimmed down my system properly using deborphan, I exported the deborphan data to apt and now use autoremove instead)14:29
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Estel_tvbgone may be using lirc driver, but not lirc package as a whole (dropping dependencies to read IR signals, useless on N900)15:33
Estel_vi__,  ping15:33
Estel_no user way to add keysets to pierogi yet - if you have data, send it to Copernicus15:34
Estel_he will gladly include15:34
Estel_or incorporate it into source code and send him patch, event cherrier ;)15:34
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Estel_vi__,  btw, once, you've highlighted a good place to bundle xbindkeys automatic startup as user into. While I've found (thanks to help here) other places for it, out of curiosity, could you remind me what it was?15:35
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Estel_can't remember for a life of mine15:36
Estel_BTW, as someone was wrong (tm) here: kp52 *does* support thumb15:36
Estel_so switching from cssu-thumb kernel into kp52 shouldn't result in bootloop.15:37
Estel_not to mention that thumb errors doen't result in bootloop at all, instead, it makes thing crash every few seconds15:37
Estel_programs, desktop, whatever. But it boots.15:37
Estel_divVerent,  as for dosbox, I'm on 900 mhz max, and here cpu speed matteres much(all)15:39
Estel_as for config, let me check...15:39
divVerentEstel_: I saw one post by you, but the only performance critical things were:15:40
divVerent3 frameskips (hate that)15:40
divVerentauto cycles (is default in the current package)15:40
divVerentauto core, suggesting dynamic too (auto is default)15:40
Estel_divVerent,  it is not noticeable in real life on N900 (3 frameskip). or set it to 2, if you don't like 315:40
divVerentI set it to 1 for now15:40
divVerentthat is even ok on a PC for me15:40
Estel_1-2 are not noticeable for 100%, and give huge performance boost15:41
divVerentright15:41
divVerenton PC, 2 already annoys me in Stunts15:41
Estel_lemme check config for other things of interest15:41
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divVerentanother somewhat unrelated issue: is there a trick to get sound out of scummvm?15:41
divVerentI just can't get music to work in monkey island 115:41
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divVerentit might be bad files, though15:42
divVerentso I will verify with the version of MI1 I actually own that I have at home, and not the one I dl'd from the net :P15:42
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Estel_divVerent,  beneath a steel sky works with sound in scumm here15:46
Estel_http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?fa7e2787034583f0#ED4L413vfxIaGflqnj0Wbeoo55omyqYgG5oNYoifuG0=15:46
Estel_for refference15:46
Estel_of course screen things are of interest...15:46
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Estel_+ Imve disabled emulation of everything that doesnt need to be emulated, like di,sney or joysticks15:47
Estel_saves some cycles15:47
Estel_of course [sdl] section is most important, check for differencies with your config and experiment15:47
divVerentalso, scummvm is somewhat stupid to use :(15:48
divVerentlike, shift-ctrl-m is hard to press15:48
divVerentand ctrl-volumekey is just stupid to enable tapping... maybe a job for an xmodmap wrapper15:48
divVerentluckily, most SCUMM games don't use many keys ;)15:48
Estel_divVerent,  hm, I don't remember such strange keyset for scumm, maybe I've changed smth ;P)15:48
divVerentoh, it can be changed? even better15:49
divVerentmost letter keys in monkey island are purely optional15:49
divVerentthey enable actions, but you also can just click them in the actions bar15:49
divVerentactually... aren't ALL purely optional? :P15:49
divVerentesc is the only really required key... and the very one not accessible at all :(15:49
divVerentto skip long talks or intro15:49
Estel_maybe... I don't remember, about changing, haven't used scum for a looong time15:50
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divVerentI'll see if that can be changed15:50
Estel_and i have esc for sure15:50
Estel_have/had15:50
divVerentwhere did you map it BTW?15:50
Estel_either somewhere in scum config, or maybe it respects maemo hardware keyboard remap, where i defined 99% of keys from full sized keyboard?15:50
Estel_(using 3th and 4th layer, like shift + blue arrow + key, which is easy to press with two fingers)15:51
Estel_as for dosbox, for some games it also help to change emulated machine15:51
Estel_from svga_e3 etc15:51
Estel_but this is per-game thing15:51
Estel_lemme check scum15:51
Estel_well, for sure I need only volume key to disable clicking... without ctrl15:55
vi__Estel_: /etc/X11/xsession.post/90YOURSCRIPTHERE15:55
Estel_and i got same effect by holding shift, but scum doesnt know that15:55
Estel_vi__,  thanks15:55
vi__Estel_: I have the sequence and the modulation freq for my car.15:56
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vi__I want to open my car with my n900.15:56
vi__Does pierogi have a command line interface?15:56
Estel_vi__,  so Copernicus will gladly add it, but you're sure it's opened by infra-red?15:56
Estel_nope15:56
Estel_openin car via infra-red sounds... silly.15:56
vi__ie pierogi --device TV --make SAMSUNG --keyset 1A --command OFF15:57
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Estel_vi__,  I'm not aware of any command line for pierogi :(15:57
vi__Well my car has IR central locking, all I have to do is send it a sequence to lock/unlock.15:57
SpeedEvilyou know it may be a rolling code?15:59
Estel_strange, every moron could easily record your ir sequence and repeat it15:59
vi__It is not.15:59
Estel_lol15:59
SpeedEvilnot simply the same code repeated.15:59
SpeedEvilis your car 20 years old?15:59
vi__Welcome to citreon, 1994.15:59
Estel_well, if it's same code repeated, then your car is as hard to open as Any TV15:59
SpeedEvilash15:59
Estel_oh, well.16:00
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vi__Not really.16:00
SpeedEvilreally16:00
vi__You would have to observe the code from my key.16:00
Estel_odds are, that learning remote for tv would be able to open it too16:00
Estel_no problem.16:00
Estel_even from distance (reflections)16:00
vi__Estel_: That is correct.16:00
Estel_anyway, Copernicus will be glad to include first car into pierogi keyset16:01
Estel_if you're happy, that every pierogi user will be able to open your car16:01
vi__The thing is the code from the TX is unique.  You have to lock the car to it.16:01
Estel_so either you do own fork of pierogi with patch adding your code16:02
vi__Meh.  I do not even need it.  I have a key anyway.16:02
Estel_or you install all lirc bundle daemon etc16:02
Estel_and use other way16:02
Estel_coolness factor by opening car via N900, eh? :P16:02
vi__if only there was a nice command line tool that would work from a sh script.16:03
Estel_divVerent,  scummvm respect hardware remap16:03
Estel_so in my case, for example, blue arrow + tap = right click16:03
Estel_(same as using right volume key, but the latter is defined in scum configj16:03
divVerenthardware remap?16:03
vi__IRSEND --modulation 37k -code 25 44 32 16 716:03
Estel_divVerent,  see wiki article remapping hardware keyboard16:03
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divVerentah, I see16:04
divVerentBTW, good idea, this remap16:04
Estel_vi__,  can't it be done with lirc driver alone?16:04
vi__maybe.16:04
divVerentone of the things I wanted to do anyway, to enable german umlaut keys16:04
Estel_divVerent,  it's usefull for many things, like easy debian, or programs from desktop ported to Maemo (without cutting functions)16:04
vi__~ vikbd16:04
vi__~vikbd16:04
Estel_heck, IIRC even microB answer to right mouse press, sometimes16:04
vi__~vi_kbd16:04
Estel_in some cases*16:04
vi__~vikb16:05
divVerentdamn, wiki JUST doesn't respond :(16:05
vi__ffs16:05
Estel_~ping16:05
divVerentah, works now16:05
infobot~pong16:05
vi__fuckit I am going home.16:05
Estel_bb :)16:05
Estel_infobot, now what?16:05
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, now what is 2*4?16:05
Estel_sure16:05
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Estel_~therapion16:06
Estel_what is now what?16:08
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Estel_infobot, what is now what?16:09
infobotnow what is probably 2*4?16:09
divVerentwtf, why does this even work?16:10
divVerent    key <UP>    { type[Group1] = "PC_FN_LEVEL2", symbols[Group1] = [    Up, udiaeresis  ] };16:10
divVerentI nmean16:10
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divVerenthow does it know that shift-fn-up outputs upper case Ü?16:10
divVerentit works, just want to know where X.org does this magic16:10
divVerentEstel_: how do you make fn-tap do right mouse button?16:17
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divVerentinstalling x11-utils now so I can play with xev16:17
divVerenthaha, xev actually gets no keyboard events ever... weird16:18
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Estel_as for right click16:22
Estel_xbindkeys and xdotool16:22
Estel_(for maemo)16:22
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Estel_divVerent:16:24
Estel_need to put that into xbindkeys config:16:24
Estel_http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?116a1fafa7fa2896#w3CqGLHfFZdoUI1zsVO6h8u7DgdXIN6NdaoS4B8HMvo=16:24
divVerentah, I see16:24
Estel_assume xdotool is present on the system, too16:25
divVerentbit cleaner than abusing xkbset16:25
Estel_I used to bind F1-F12 to upper row keys by xbindkeys, too, but switched to doing so in hardware remap way16:26
Estel_aka rx-51 file16:26
Estel_as it works for more things than xbindkeys used too16:26
Estel_(yes, I have F1-F12 mapped too, as said 99% of full sized keyboard :P )16:27
Estel_including chars like |><%$^~[]}{16:27
Estel_very convenient16:27
Estel_(I'm writing it from N900 even now :P)16:27
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divVerentEstel_: upper row? you mean on crappy keybinds like Fn+Ctrl+Q = F1? ;)16:30
Estel_no, why16:33
Estel_blue arrow + shift (which is easily covered by one finger) + q16:33
Estel_= F116:33
Estel_fn + ctrl is more complicated as it is Sym table16:34
Estel_;)16:34
Estel_from practice, btw, shift and blue arrow is very conveinent16:34
Estel_btw shift + blue arrow is somethng different than blue arrow + shift16:34
Estel_;)16:34
Estel_normally it doesn't matter, but could be abused to bind even more16:35
Estel_it's just that I already managed to have full keyboard binded to N900 keyboard, so no need to complicate things16:35
Estel_xes, ping16:35
divVerenthm... would like to see your keybind file then :) maybe even on the wiki16:37
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Estel_divVerent,  why not, but it's also filled with polish characters, so would require clean-up :)16:44
Estel_I use unusual approach to local things, though. Instead of binding special letters a whole, I bind dead_ components16:45
Estel_like dead_ogonek16:45
Estel_or dead_dot16:45
Estel_˙16:45
Estel_or dead_accute. So, I have it binded to shift + blue arrow to some key...16:46
Estel_then, I use it to mix with any letter I want16:46
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divVerentEstel_: that's actually a nice idea...16:46
Estel_this way, using only one key for ´ I have possibility to invoke all leter mixed with ´, for example ć ó ń ź etc16:47
divVerentcurrently I put ÄÖÜß on arrows... but as I will soon move to Switzerland...16:47
divVerentit may be better to put dead diaresis, acute, grave on three of them16:47
divVerentand keep ß when writing to Germans ;)16:47
Estel_and, after some practice, it's very natural way of writing, no slower than using accented letter directly16:47
divVerentI remember this way of writing from the TI-92 ;)16:47
Estel_hehe16:47
Estel_there is only one irritating thing, no working dead slash :(16:48
Estel_so ł have to be letter16:48
Estel_due to bug in x-something16:48
divVerentcompose key?16:48
Estel_won't work, tried16:48
divVerentoh, ok16:48
Estel_so doing a capitalised ł is PITA16:48
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Estel_dead slash or how it's called should work, but it just doesnt16:49
Estel_same apply, probably, to slashed o in nordic16:49
Estel_or is it dead_strike16:49
Estel_anyway, it just don't work with that single dead only :(16:49
Estel_to capitalise ł I need to enable caps lock then invoke it with blue arrow only...16:51
Estel_which is only one problematic key16:52
divVerentdamn, ccedilla is not possible to enter via `c or the like16:52
divVerentI might need that TOO...16:52
Estel_are you sure youmre using dead?16:52
Estel_hm16:52
divVerentthing is, I can only map 3 of the arrow keys16:52
divVerentleft is grave, middle is diaeresis, right is acute16:52
divVerentup I need for ß16:52
Estel_need to use shift + blue arrow + c16:52
divVerentthey currently do the same for me as unshifted :P16:53
Estel_btw I'm not sure if mapping things to arrow is good idea16:53
Estel_won't you lose capability to highlight text by shift + arrow?16:53
divVerenthaha, seems easy to fix16:53
Estel_hm?16:54
divVerentyes, which is why I only remap fn-arrow16:54
divVerent    key <AC01>  { [     a,              A,              asterisk,       asterisk        ] };16:54
divVerentnote that quite explicitly fn-a and shift-fn-a are equal16:54
divVerentso I can map these two differently16:54
divVerentgreat, means lots of easy space for symbols :P16:54
Estel_that's what I toldya16:54
divVerentyes, I just don't get the ordering of these, what these levels mean16:55
divVerentediting existing definitions is easy though16:55
Estel_blue arrow = fn (well, in fact it's not fn but AltGr,  but no one know it, so I call it blue arrow to avoid confusion)16:55
Estel_first thing is keystroke16:55
Estel_another keystroke + shift16:55
divVerentok, need to take out the TI-92 to see how it mapped the dead keys... so I can use my old "finger mapping" ;)16:55
divVerentah, diaeresis was on U16:56
Estel_later is blue arrow + keystroke and later shift + blue arrow + keystroke16:56
divVerentthe logic behind these was apparently, 2nd+key is the dead key most commonly used with that key16:56
divVerentso 2nd-u yielded the diaeresis because ü is common :P16:56
Estel_no idea how to achieve shift + blue arrow + keystroke, without altering what happens with shift + keystroke16:56
Estel_(so arrows would still allow to higlight text by shift and arrowing)16:56
divVerentand yes, I will probbaly undo the arrow change and rather go the TI-92-like route... mainly because I once was used to it16:57
Estel_hey, I replicated this logic16:57
divVerentso I probably will easily get used to it again16:57
Estel_without using TI-92 ever :P16:57
divVerentalso put the dead keys similarily?16:57
divVerenton the same key as the letter you often use it with?16:57
Estel_I also mapped dead key to most commonly used key with that dead16:57
divVerenti.e. most of them on vowel keys, especially16:57
divVerentah, TI used:16:58
divVerent2nd-A is grave16:58
Estel_yea, at the same key where it is most used16:58
divVerent2nd-C is dead cedille16:58
divVerent2nd-E is acute16:58
divVerent2nd-N is tilde16:58
divVerent2nd-O is caret16:58
divVerent2nd-U is umlaut16:58
Estel_just that I made it for polish especially16:58
divVerentthat should cover ALL the languages spoken in Switzerland ;)16:58
Estel_:)16:58
Estel_thank goodness I need to have only polish and english16:59
divVerentin .ch, I'd mainly need the others for place names16:59
Estel_understandable16:59
divVerentalso, I am German, but Swiss-German handles French-origin words differently16:59
divVerentthey actually spell them in original French16:59
Estel_but complicated, still ;)16:59
divVerenti.e. with all accents retained16:59
divVerentwhile "regular" German strips the accents16:59
Estel_I'm all for multi-cultural, but it makes keyboard mapping a mess17:00
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Estel_...which reminds me that I should already start making "traditional" polish dinner of Spaghetti, for hungry family17:01
Estel_see ya later!17:01
divVerentcu17:04
divVerentwhile at it, adding mapping for <> | :P17:04
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divVerentargh... SOUNDED easy... but I just put <> where [] would have belonged ;)17:12
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divVerentEstel_: getting a funny bug, can you check if your mapping has the issue too?17:19
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divVerentshift+fn+J and shift+fn+K always output BOTH assigned keybinds17:20
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divVerentaloso visible in the default binds, where these two both enter )&17:20
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divVerenthttp://pastebin.com/ARf4QHru - my current binds now BTW17:27
divVerentNoSymbol on Shift+Fn+K to avoid the bug17:28
divVerentBTW, a second plausible mapping would be dead grave on b, dead acute on v, dead diaeresis on n17:28
divVerentthen they match the blue symbols17:28
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keriodivVerent: it's a problem of the keyboard17:34
kerioshift+fn+z and shift+fn+x are the same thing17:34
keriosame as... shift+fn+k and shift+fn+l i think?17:34
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divVerentfunny problem :P17:41
divVerentindeed, z+x exhibit it too17:41
divVerentkl do not, but jk do17:42
divVerentand yes, I was assuming it must be a HW problem17:42
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divVerentok, here I have another question... how would one "harden" Maemo so a web browser exploit cannot get root rights18:22
divVerentone obvious thing I did: I removed the NOPASSWD: from the gainroot entry in sudoers, and set a user password18:23
divVerentbut I noticed quite a lot of sudoers entries that suffice to gain root18:23
divVerente.g. /usr/sbin/osso-prepare-partition.sh can be run with any args via sudo, and passing "/path/to/destination if=/path/to/source" can copy any file up to 512 bytes size as root18:24
divVerentwhich suffices to become root by rewriting /etc/shadow and /etc/passwd ;)18:24
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divVerentand yes, i know this threat is VERY unlikely... DesktopLinux/ARM is not targeted much, unlike e.g. Android/ARM18:24
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divVerentbasically: where should I address bugs in sudoers-run programs?18:25
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divVerentalso, I know quite well that hardening the system in such a way would require getting rid of hildon-application-manager, which is actually DESIGNED to enable installation of software without root permissions ;)18:26
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divVerentso basically, where are security bugs in Maemo "core" packages to be reported to?18:27
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merlin1991divVerent: cssu if anywhere18:56
divVerentand is there a policy to keep such things secret, or is it ok to freely publish them on the bug tracker (usually I'd attach a fixing patch)?18:58
divVerentprobably the latter, given that most users quite intentionally allow "sudo gainroot" without any questions asked ;)18:59
divVerent(which is also why I'd never report this as "bug" for the rootsh package - if it's what the user wants, then it's right and not a bug)19:00
merlin1991we actually never had a policy for security bugs19:02
merlin1991we as in the cssu team, nokia obviously had some19:02
divVerentbut Nokia is totally out by now, I think19:02
divVerentor not?19:02
merlin1991yes it is19:02
divVerentand the N900 is by default designed to be rootable... so what I want to find out, is a) how to close down the intentional holes, and b) how to fix the unintentional ones :P19:03
divVerentthe most obvious intentional one is that one can enter custom repositories into hildon-application-manager. I suppose making the catalogues XML file immutable via chattr would "fix" this one ;)19:04
divVerentof course, it's the very feature because of which I have a N90019:04
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divVerentso my end goal would be fixing ALL the holes, but allowing root login via sudo with password (or ssh with a key for root)19:05
FIQthe issue with HAM is that it allows installation of stuff (which can give root easily) without authencation19:06
divVerentthat issue also exists, but IIRC can be fixed on APT level19:06
divVerentby making signatures mandatory19:06
FIQpersonally I don't care, I don't see any reason for people to steal my phone and do stuff19:06
divVerentso one of my suggestions for hardening would be getting rid of HAM entirely, and using apt-get via a controlled root shell19:06
deepysudo ham19:06
divVerentyes, or removing its sudo rights ;)19:07
FIQand if they do, they wont find anything interesting (besides the raw value of N900 obviously)19:07
divVerentand running it as root then19:07
merlin1991using ham assumes you're the device user19:07
divVerentexactly19:07
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merlin1991so it is not "unsafe"19:07
divVerentthe thing is, a web browser exploit (for example) can use the very same sudo commands HAM uses to spawn and talk to apt-worker19:07
merlin1991unless you hand your phone to random strangers unlocked19:07
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divVerentthus install stuff19:07
FIQmerlin1991: that's my point :p19:07
divVerentI am mainly worried about impact of browser exploits19:07
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divVerentthat the GUI assumes you are the owner is ok19:07
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divVerentso one other step would also be attemptting to sandbox the browser19:08
divVerentprobably futile, as we WANT the browser to be able to spawn e.g. the word processor19:08
divVerentand running as different user IDs would be problematic19:09
divVerentalso, whatever I do, an exploit can always read the MMC or VFAT partition19:09
divVerenti.e. get ALL the photos ;)19:09
divVerentissue shared with Android, BTW19:10
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r00t^homedivVerent: you can fix most of that by installing android on your n900 ;)19:14
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keriodivVerent: there's no /etc/shadow19:24
kerioso if you have passwordful sudo, your security is worth shit19:25
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thomasjfox_hey there. Any news about the maemo build system? I didn't follow the discussions lately and thought about doing a new rockbox release soon20:19
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sixwheeledbeastthomasjfox_ it's getting there, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=8927320:38
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sixwheeledbeastmmm, got a screw in the display module that will not come out, grr.20:39
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thomasjfox_sixwheeledbeast: yey! thanks.20:40
thomasjfox_I'll try the build system on the mentioned IP soonish ;)20:41
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thomasjfox_and I need to fork over some $$$ to keep this effort running. the n900 is still the best phone for me (proper keyboard)20:42
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sixwheeledbeastanybody got any ideas on removing a rounded ph00 screw from a display module?20:46
ShadowJK1mm reverse drill bit20:47
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sixwheeledbeastShadowJK: you tested that?20:47
ShadowJKno20:47
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ShadowJKnot with that particular screw20:48
ShadowJKor on a N900 at all20:48
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ShadowJKBut in many cases when you start drilling into a screw with a reverse drill (one that spins counter clockwise when drilling down), the screw will start turning20:49
ShadowJKIf it doesn't, you glue a rod into the hole you just made, wait for it to set20:49
sixwheeledbeastfive of hem are out and this last one came out a little then got really tight and snapped the screwdriver bit.20:49
sixwheeledbeastI am trying to glue the broken screwdriver bit to the screw atm20:50
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xesM4rtinK: ping22:04
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M4rtinKxes: pong :)22:08
M4rtinKxes: got your email ! :)22:08
M4rtinKxes: thanks ! :)22:08
xesM4rtinK: have you seen something interesting? Most of this is just a quick hack, but it could be interesting if integrated in a proper way22:10
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M4rtinKxes: yep, my plan is to use this as a base for an import feature22:11
M4rtinKsomething like --import-gns /path/to.db22:11
M4rtinKand eventually also interactive import triggered from the GUI (file open dialog, etc.)22:12
M4rtinKwill also try to improve POI handling when I'm at it :)22:13
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M4rtinKnot sure about the timeframe but lets say "soon" :)22:13
xesgreat! The funcion to calculate the distance should be a little optimized, i had to cut a few steps to reduce the time of execution of the script but attached there is also the original readable funcion in the other script22:15
xesbtw, just an idea to help the offline users! ;)22:16
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xesM4rtinK: as you can see, gns files have a fixed link for the download (http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm)so i think you could point to them directly in the import wizard22:25
M4rtinKxes: good point - that would also be a nice feature :)22:28
M4rtinKxes: BTW, do they update them regularly ?22:29
M4rtinKregarding distance calculation22:29
M4rtinKmodRana has some quite optimized distance calculation functions22:29
M4rtinK(rewritten from Marble :))22:30
xesfor sure faster than my bash  function!  Gns update that files about every 1 or 2 months22:31
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xes..while italian users would be very happy of the "poi gps" import feature22:33
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M4rtinKxes: poi gps ?22:48
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