IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2013-03-08

vdv	ok	00:00
DocScrutinizer05	but extras-devel is meant to get disabled after installation of any package	00:00
DocScrutinizer05	I know it sucks, but that's the way it is	00:00
vdv	DocScrutinizer05: Estel_ said you know a prog which can monitor call duration and notify	00:00
DocScrutinizer05	it sucks less with merlin's extras-devel-light repo mirror	00:01
DocScrutinizer05	vdv: lemme find it for you, while you read on	00:01
vdv	DocScrutinizer05, why should extras-devel be disabled?	00:01
DocScrutinizer05	~jrtools	00:01
infobot	jrtools is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools	00:01
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, you remember this nice program from tmo to log minutes anc sms and costs? I can't recall it's name for a life of mine	00:01
* DocScrutinizer05 neither, that's why I need to find it		00:02
Estel_	vdv, because you may get something unstable upgraded. But you can leavde it enabled, if you're carefull about what you upgrade	00:02
DocScrutinizer05	the half of it are calllog SQL scripts from ~jrtools though	00:02
vdv	Estel_, i never accept updates from ui package manager	00:02
DocScrutinizer05	will swamp you with "packages that have updates" every day	00:03
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, untill you disable HAM autoupdate	00:03
DocScrutinizer05	:-P	00:03
Estel_	by setting it to update every 3k years or so	00:03
sixwheeledbeast	wiki remembers uploaded images but none of the changes per user	00:03
DocScrutinizer05	every 50 recommended	00:03
Estel_	and, fanfares use fapman for updates :P	00:03
Estel_	haha	00:03
vdv	Estel_, i remember i did that	00:04
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, thanks, will add comment about images to my report	00:04
vdv	added a big number to counter	00:04
vdv	so that i don't get updates check on every internet connection	00:04
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1050432#post1050432 here you are	00:05
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, does it shows subscribtions made after migration?	00:05
sixwheeledbeast	Estel_: fapman :P	00:05
Estel_	have you edited any article after migration?	00:05
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, this is package real name :P	00:05
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DocScrutinizer05	ever been	00:06
sixwheeledbeast	wiki has images from pre migration but nothing for changes at all	00:06
DocScrutinizer05	~fapman	00:06
infobot	fapman is, like, Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever	00:06
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, it shows 0 contributions from your side, so I'm interested if you have contributed anything after migration	00:06
sixwheeledbeast	~botsnack	00:07
infobot	sixwheeledbeast: aw, gee	00:07
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, have you seen my conversation with keiro, where I checked all packages that were rumored to cause problems with fapman...	00:07
Estel_	due to pre/post installk/remove scripts...	00:07
Estel_	and it turned out that it's all fud? :P	00:07
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	00:07
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, again, have you edited any wiki article after migration?	00:07
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DocScrutinizer05	I can promise fapman won't work with CSSU	00:07
sixwheeledbeast	yep broken package list and some other stuff	00:07
Pali	~ham	00:08
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, ham is Hildon Application Manager. Slow like molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does	00:08
DocScrutinizer05	and I also might bet an arm or a leg that fapman does autoremove	00:08
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Estel_	infobot: no, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU)	00:08
infobot	okay, Estel_	00:08
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Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, good point	00:09
DocScrutinizer05	~forget fapman	00:09
infobot	i forgot fapman, DocScrutinizer05	00:09
DocScrutinizer05	~unforget fapman	00:09
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: Successfully recovered 'fapman'. Have fun now.	00:09
DocScrutinizer05	~fapman	00:09
infobot	from memory, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU)	00:09
DocScrutinizer05	meh	00:09
Estel_	infobot: no, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default.	00:09
infobot	okay, Estel_	00:09
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, whats wrong with my factoid?	00:09
n900-dk_	busy bot tonight :)	00:09
DocScrutinizer05	it's not your factoid	00:10
Pali	ham doing also autoremove every operation	00:10
DocScrutinizer05	and it not been wrong either	00:10
Estel_	it's kerio one, and he agreed :P	00:10
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Estel_	it have been quite non-informative	00:10
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DocScrutinizer05	I don't see him agreeing	00:10
sixwheeledbeast	plenty of snacks to keep it going	00:10
Estel_	I want to be fair here, not describing it as super-duper, just stating facts	00:10
* kerio plays minecraft		00:10
xes	Estel_: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72341&highlight=sms+counter	00:10
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, since when publiv factoids are personal, and, BTW, he agreed when I mythbusted fud about fapman :P	00:11
DocScrutinizer05	I told you not to mess with existing infobot factoids!	00:11
Estel_	xes, thanks	00:11
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, wtf? just me can't contribute to them, or what?	00:11
DocScrutinizer05	you got a record for doing that	00:11
Estel_	today I added things to bq-calibrating, and you were not bitching about it	00:11
DocScrutinizer05	you added stuff	00:12
Estel_	so it ratherr looks like your personal antagonity against fapman :P	00:12
DocScrutinizer05	no, it's about general rules regarding factoid edits	00:12
n900-dk_	Maybe we should fire the bot and just use Doc ;)	00:12
Estel_	oh, dear, factoid with facts in it, rather than "never use it ever", sounds like fair contribution	00:12
Estel_	ok, whatever	00:12
kerio	actually i think that the factoid was changed	00:12
kerio	or deleted	00:12
Estel_	~fapman	00:13
infobot	hmm... fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default.	00:13
kerio	the point is, we don't know, because you haven't checked it before changing it	00:13
DocScrutinizer05	~factinfo fapman	00:13
infobot	fapman -- created by RiD <~GhostRide@2.83.43.131> at Thu Jul 5 20:14:21 2012 (245 days); last modified 3m 31s ago by Estel_!~Estel@Maemo/community/contributor/Estel-; it has been requested 22 times, last by Estel_, 12s ago.	00:13
Estel_	yes, I have checked it ?<	00:13
DocScrutinizer05	so how is it kerio's factoid?	00:13
Estel_	ough, sorry, kerio once told me he made it	00:13
DocScrutinizer05	that's why you got a very personal infraction to not edit factoids	00:14
sixwheeledbeast	Estel_: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=estel&page=&year=&month=-1	00:14
Estel_	my mistake, anyway, never saw rule that public factoids need permission, to edit, it's just plain stupid. Like someone make ~Docscrutinizer is asshat and you can't edit it cause it is his factoid?	00:14
sixwheeledbeast	pre migration for example	00:14
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Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, whatever, I know that many things on those irc channels are quite not logical, like user getting bashing for editing factoid to be precise and informative, rather than haters FUBAR	00:15
sixwheeledbeast	also all user names on wiki "were" first char uppercase now not so	00:15
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, I know	00:15
DocScrutinizer05	yes, you mustn't edit ~docscrutinizer, no matter who defined it	00:15
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DocScrutinizer05	btw you couldn't	00:15
Estel_	I just wonder if post-migration contributions are found	00:15
n900-dk_	let's have a voting for a factiod master, oh no, let's make that a board	00:16
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DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: the logic is simple: your notion of what's precise and what's haters is simply not better than that of original factoid author	00:17
DocScrutinizer05	never	00:17
DocScrutinizer05	your!!! never ever ever	00:17
DocScrutinizer05	so you can add to facoids, but never redefine them	00:18
DocScrutinizer05	unless they are yours	00:18
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n900-dk_	any better app for offline nav than Sygic Mobile?	00:19
DocScrutinizer05	marble	00:19
DocScrutinizer05	dunno if it's "better"	00:19
cehteh	monav	00:20
DocScrutinizer05	actually monav does the offline nav	00:20
sixwheeledbeast	doesn't modrana work offline with monav?	00:20
n900-dk_	it supports offline nav?	00:20
DocScrutinizer05	for marble	00:20
cehteh	i meant not the deamon but the frontend with vector maps	00:20
cehteh	not the package in extras :)	00:20
Estel_	I still bet that if I would add "he is also a bitch" to ~docscrutinizer, I would get instaban - but, whatever	00:20
n900-dk_	and voice directions please	00:20
Estel_	I've send bug report to nemein, cc'ing techstaff	00:20
Estel_	about wiki	00:20
cehteh	http://monav.openstreetmap.de/	00:20
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: again, you can't	00:21
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, rolleyes because it's locked, but it was just example	00:21
Estel_	let it be ~kerio is a bitch, same result	00:21
cehteh	http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:MoNav_03_Maemo.png << that ui	00:21
DocScrutinizer05	no, i would ignore that ;-P	00:21
kerio	no, you are a bitch	00:22
DocScrutinizer05	or lock it X-P	00:22
Estel_	n900-dk_, ModRana seems like most actively developed nav program for N900	00:22
Estel_	with all functions you've described as required	00:22
cehteh	offline?	00:22
DocScrutinizer05	leave it to kerio to delete or edit it and lock his factoid	00:22
Estel_	2nd would be Marble, although, lack some major things like sqlite tile storage	00:22
cehteh	modrana can cache tiles and preload them	00:22
kerio	also, just to remind you	00:22
kerio	~kerio	00:22
infobot	well, kerio is <DocScrutinizer05> kerio is right	00:22
Estel_	(= tiles consume MUCH more space)	00:22
n900-dk_	Estel_: But no voice directions right?	00:23
DocScrutinizer05	why the heck would I care?	00:23
Estel_	n900-dk_, voice directions too in modrana	00:23
Estel_	via espeak	00:23
cehteh	i almost only use monav nowadays ..	00:23
n900-dk_	Estel_: damn, espeak is no go	00:24
Estel_	n900-dk_, why so?	00:24
Estel_	cehteh, modrana uses monav bits too :P	00:24
n900-dk_	Can't understand it	00:24
Estel_	and abusing google satellite is funny	00:24
vdv	how can i make opera default browser on my n900?	00:24
cehteh	there is some developent version with speech support for monav somewhere, i havent used it yet	00:24
vdv	it's so amazing	00:24
Estel_	n900-dk_, I suppose you could add your own voiceset from other program to be used by modrana?	00:24
DocScrutinizer05	WTF would anybody store tiles in sqlite?	00:25
Estel_	M4rtinK, is it ^ possible?	00:25
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: browser-switchboard	00:25
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, because every tile is small and you waste rest of block	00:25
DocScrutinizer05	meh	00:25
Estel_	thousand of tiles = hundred of wasted megabytes	00:25
Estel_	or even gigabytes	00:25
Estel_	(not hundreds :P )	00:25
Estel_	it's 3x-4x less space used for tile, or more, if you use 8bit maps	00:26
DocScrutinizer05	wut?	00:26
Estel_	storing them in sqlite is best inevntion since sliced bread :P	00:26
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DocScrutinizer05	suuuure	00:26
Estel_	well, if you have, lets say, 8kb blocks...	00:26
Estel_	and tile is 2 kb...	00:27
DocScrutinizer05	since sqlite works so amazingly fast and efficient, e.g with tracker	00:27
DocScrutinizer05	no, we don't have 8k blocks	00:27
DocScrutinizer05	afaik	00:27
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, no idea, but for programs I've used it works blazing fast	00:27
DocScrutinizer05	neither are tiles 2k, again afaik	00:27
Estel_	whatever, tiles are rarely over 1KB	00:27
Estel_	well, depends on map used	00:27
sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk_: have you tweaked with the espeak settings?	00:27
Estel_	I got shitload of them and saved 1.5 GB or so	00:28
DocScrutinizer05	using 1k tiles is simply braindead	00:28
sixwheeledbeast	slow it down for example	00:28
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, for non-satellite maps, 8 bit maps are, most of the times, looking the same as 24 bit ones	00:28
Estel_	using fraction of storage	00:28
Estel_	see comparision of google maps (normal) and 8bits variant	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	5050 pixels are already 2500 pixels*	00:29
Estel_	same content, many times smaller	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	and 50*50 is insanely small	00:29
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, is that an app?	00:29
Estel_	I talk about color depth?	00:29
Estel_	(ibit vs 24 bit)	00:29
Estel_	(or 16 bit)	00:29
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: browser switchboard = yes,latest from devel is good IIRC	00:30
n900-dk_	sixwheeledbeast: Yes, but still not the best	00:30
Estel_	s/ibit/8bit/	00:30
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, theory aside, tiles stored in sqlite use shitload less space, in practice	00:30
n900-dk_	and it's only the distance that is lokal language	00:30
n900-dk_	s/lokal/local/g	00:30
infobot	n900-dk_ meant: and it's only the distance that is local language	00:30
Estel_	with no perceived slowing down of loading time	00:30
Estel_	which is all that matters :P	00:30
sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk_: k, i hate voice navigation have voice on sygic off anyway	00:30
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, browser-switchboard installed microb here :)	00:31
Estel_	as said, I saved ~1.5GB, after putting my tiles into sqlite	00:31
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: ?	00:31
xes	I filled my sd with 15gb of tiles to be used with trackaway. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85686 ..And it is still reall fast ;)	00:32
Estel_	in sqlite?	00:32
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, i have a menu item MicroB now )	00:32
vdv	and it launches standard browser	00:32
xes	Estel_: tilestore from Mobac	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	my tiles here are 7..50k size	00:33
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: settings > browser switchboard . opera = done :)	00:33
sixwheeledbeast	s/./>	00:33
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, change tile provider :P	00:34
Estel_	anyway	00:34
Estel_	for any block size, tile that exteeds it by 1 kb	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	why should I?	00:34
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, thanks a lot )	00:34
Estel_	still waste another full block	00:34
xes	btw, under the sun 24 bit = 8 bit = 2 bit ;)	00:34
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: np	00:34
Estel_	so hyphotetival 50kb tile is still wasting some kb	00:34
Estel_	in sqlite, you waste none, per thousands of tiles	00:35
Estel_	xes, yea	00:35
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, idk why should you, to stop wasting storage space? :P	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	bwahahaha	00:35
DocScrutinizer05	you just waste sqlite metainfo overhead	00:35
Estel_	...as it's still single file with all tiles	00:35
Estel_	no, I don't :)	00:35
Estel_	as said, saved 1.5 GB, by converting my tiles to sqlite database	00:36
Estel_	which is nice deal for me	00:36
Estel_	anyway	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	honestly storing large amounts of huge data in a rdbms is braindead	00:36
Estel_	your mileage may wary ;)	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	as braindead as it gets	00:36
kerio	>implying sqlite is a rdbms	00:36
Estel_	well, in practice it works, as I have 1.5 GB more for other uses	00:36
DocScrutinizer05	LOL, my whole map is no 1.5GB	00:37
Estel_	...and every new area i download, saved increase	00:37
Estel_	well, as said, I travel much	00:37
Estel_	so your mileage may wary	00:37
DocScrutinizer05	I downloaded whole country	00:37
Estel_	2/3 of my N900 storage is maps	00:37
n900-dk_	sixwheeledbeast: So you don't use n900 for navigation in car?	00:37
Estel_	well, maybe on low zoom :P	00:38
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Estel_	I need quite detailed zoom without net connectivity, many times	00:38
sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk: no a van	00:38
Estel_	n900-dk_, even in car I don't use voicenav	00:38
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sixwheeledbeast	i don't like things talking at me and distrubing OMP	00:39
n900-dk_	You have a wife or just know your way around? ;)	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	using that small tiles is idiotic, anyway. And probably only done to have a proper excuse to use a SQL database which is the next idiotic design decision	00:39
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, I also admit that I find satellite view useful many times, on high zoom, so it adds to storage	00:39
sixwheeledbeast	plus i have very good local knowledge	00:39
sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk_ latter	00:39
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, modrana or other nav programs doesnt decide on tile sizes	00:39
Estel_	providers like google or openstreetmap deefines tilesize	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	so what do you think are the tile I ise from?	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	use*	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	and I haven't seen a single tile <5k	00:40
Estel_	No idea, maybe you see smallest streets while having whole country at 3x screen size? :P	00:40
Estel_	on my case I have hundred of thousands tiles from various map layers	00:41
Estel_	if not more	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	so what?	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	does that change size of a sibngle tile?	00:41
Estel_	not to mention hitting limit of number of tiles in one directory, no problem with sqlite	00:41
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, it means that saved space on every tile adds up	00:41
Estel_	it doesnt matter if your tiles are bigger	00:42
Estel_	1kb above blovk size or 4x blocksize + 50 bytes still waste another blocksize	00:42
Estel_	multiply it by a 500 000 or 1 500 000 tiles	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	go argue til you're blue in the face. Nobody with a sane mind stores enormous amounts of blobs in a database	00:42
Estel_	then, one can add fast compression, too	00:43
Estel_	well, every sane foss program moves into storing tiles in sqlite	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	au contraire, they store those blobs on files and the filename in database	00:43
Estel_	marble is going to incorporate it too :P	00:43
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DocScrutinizer05	no surprise, marble is kde	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	kde got kmail2	00:44
Estel_	so I would rather count on their experrience and my saved 1.5 GB reinforcing it, than argue with you about ideology, when it works in practice	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	which is using mysql for the maildir indexing	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, works like kade	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	KDE even	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	obviously another one of your "scientific proofs"	00:45
Estel_	for me 1.5 GB on 32 GB device gained for FREE (no speed penalty while using it) is good gain worth effort	00:45
Estel_	especially that my effort afterr initial conversion is 0	00:45
Estel_	new tiles just get saved to file	00:45
DocScrutinizer05	again, I hardly see whole countries of that size	00:45
Estel_	shrugs	00:45
DocScrutinizer05	on OSM	00:45
Estel_	as said, I don't use only osm	00:46
Estel_	google satrllite and their streets overlay	00:46
DocScrutinizer05	so maybe you should change your map provider then	00:46
Estel_	(streets overlay got especially small sized tiles)	00:46
xes	DocScrutinizer05: the point is the realation blocksize/tile size. On large filesystems you may loose many GB.	00:47
Estel_	why so, if some developers coded sqlite that allow me to use any tiles i like without wasting space due to blocksize? :P c'mon, you're arguing just for sake of it. It works, it makes people happy, it doesn't offend you or force to use it.	00:47
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xes	the worst thing is that so far there isn't a mapping software able to apply a customizable color/saturation/hue filter before loading the tiles. Some map provider has really orrible color schemes	00:47
Estel_	xes, DocScrutinizer05 just got mood of pointlessly arguing just for the sake of it. Happens from time to time oin this channel :P	00:47
Estel_	xes, suggest it to M4rtinK	00:48
Estel_	I think he would gladly implement it if feasible, as it's great idea	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	no, i'll stop arguing with a guy who never ever accepted an better rationale once he had decided for "his way"	00:48
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, frankly, you're only one bitching about someone else using sqlite for tiles, that ois saving gigabytes of space. :P	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	meh keep your nonsense to yourself	00:49
Estel_	last time I checked no one forced you to use it, eh?	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	last time you started arguing like this, somebody 8not me) kicked you	00:50
xes	no need to argue for this. Most applications have both choices to satisfy the different needs. Thats all	00:50
n900-dk_	cheer up guys - why do we have so much negative spirit in here? Didn't used to be like this..	00:51
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, it was the same troll who acussed me of "using council cloak on irc after reesigning"? you have funny heroes :P	00:51
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* sixwheeledbeast just did apt-get upgrade with cssu-devel and didn't die :)		00:51
kerio	sixwheeledbeast: i do that all the time	00:51
Estel_	sixwheeledbeast, you mean new rmo?	00:51
xes	if you have 1gb of tiles you can fit everywhere. If you have 20 GB you start trying different ways	00:51
kerio	just keep a backup handy	00:51
DocScrutinizer05	xes: storing blobs in a SQL db for exploiting a minor implementation detail that could as well get reached by using a better FS or smaller blocksize is nothing to argue about, and no sane program will provide it as option	00:51
Estel_	lol, I'm not gonna change my filesystem just for tiles!	00:52
sixwheeledbeast	thumb + cssu devel + new rmo on my new testing device :)	00:52
DocScrutinizer05	lol, there's a noob who never heard of loopmounts	00:52
Estel_	and every sane program provide is as an option or plans to, no matter what DocScrutinizer05 thinks about it ;)	00:52
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: dude, chill	00:52
kerio	you're acting like... idk, Estel_	00:52
Estel_	I think continuation of this discussions is pointless?... it reminds me of today bme in upstart one, although this one is MUCH more pointless	00:53
DocScrutinizer05	sure, show me one program that has option "use sql \| use plain files"	00:53
xes	mobac	00:53
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, google for it, and if it isn't there yet, it is in roadmaps for features :P	00:53
DocScrutinizer05	fine, this app qualifies for the non-sane 2% then	00:54
Estel_	mobac, modrana (and any rana thing), marble on it's way, + shitload of commercial things doing it under the hood	00:54
sixwheeledbeast	modrana does IIRC	00:54
Estel_	of course it does.	00:54
xes	DocScrutinizer05: :)	00:54
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: you said OPTION	00:54
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Estel_	well, if poettering is agressively enforcing own views on things, then i don't know what reisenberging is.	00:55
vdv	seems opera mobile don't support flash...	00:55
vdv	or does?	00:55
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: correct	00:55
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Estel_	oh right, so commercial ones that switched from files to database without asking user about opinion doesnt comply :P	00:55
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, so it does support?	00:55
xes	manage a lot of maps is a pain, porting between devices in another problem. Have the possibility to choose the format is very important	00:55
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: you're trying to make me angry? or is this just another lame trolling practiceing lesson?	00:55
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: does not	00:56
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, do you have n900?	00:56
Estel_	in fact, I'm going to eat yoghurt now. With cornflakes! That will make you anrgy.	00:56
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05		00:56
Estel_	angry, even	00:56
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: x3 now	00:56
*** Estel_ was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (User terminated!)		00:56
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xes	:)	00:56
DocScrutinizer05	he asked for it, didn't he?	00:57
xes	tom & jerry	00:57
xes	:)	00:57
sixwheeledbeast	mmm saw that coming	00:57
xes	..like a train ;)	00:57
vdv	sixwheeledbeast, but still, which browser can you advice? fennec seems very slow..	00:57
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sixwheeledbeast	vdv: I use opera and put up with no flash, purely for portrait keyboard and autorefocus thing	00:58
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vdv	yes, it's so nice	00:59
sixwheeledbeast	vdv: I do wish to get fennec thumb working on testing device	00:59
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vdv	i've commented out lines in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list with #, but seems it wouldn't work, right?	00:59
n900-dk_	DocScrutinizer05: dont get why you are to sensitive and kick folks for small stuff - you could just stop replying :)	01:00
n900-dk_	s/to/so/	01:00
infobot	n900-dk_ meant: DocScrutinizer05: dont get why you are so sensitive and kick folks for small stuff - you could just stop replying :)	01:00
M4rtinK	I'm here :)	01:00
M4rtinK	regarding that sqlite tile storage	01:01
M4rtinK	it indeed saves a lot of space in practise	01:01
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M4rtinK	I had a uses report a batch of tiles taking ~ 1.6 GB and taking only 80 MB when stored in sqlite	01:02
n900-dk_	no more talk about titles please, doc is in a bad mood ;)	01:02
DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: might do, and exactly for the reasons he mentioned. Still it's idiotic to use that huge overhead of a sql db for that	01:02
n900-dk_	s/titles/tiles/g	01:03
infobot	n900-dk_ meant: no more talk about tiles please, doc is in a bad mood ;)	01:03
M4rtinK	due to the quite large cluster size on the FAT32 MyDocs	01:03
M4rtinK	well, I haven't been able to come with any other workable solution	01:03
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M4rtinK	some plain indexed binary file would probably do	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	user reiserfs on a loopmount	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	or use ext4 iirc	01:04
M4rtinK	but I was not able to find anything of the shelf	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	Martix: that too	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: ^^^	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	sorry Martix	01:04
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Martix	M4rtinK: you? again?	01:05
M4rtinK	of course, the users are free to use that	01:05
M4rtinK	but I needed something that only uses Python (which has sqlite built-in)	01:05
DocScrutinizer05	sqlite is a bitch	01:05
M4rtinK	and it is an option BTW, default is files (for sharing with other programs)	01:06
DocScrutinizer05	makes maemo crawl even on 2Mb large messages db	01:06
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M4rtinK	indeed it is - had a few headaches till I got it working	01:06
M4rtinK	the old sqlite in Python 2.5 hates threaded access	01:06
M4rtinK	but once I got that sorted out - it really is not a bottleneck	01:07
DocScrutinizer05	nobody ever stores "huge" blobs inside the db	01:07
DocScrutinizer05	huge == everything > a few 100 bytes	01:07
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DocScrutinizer05	except those tracker fools	01:08
DocScrutinizer05	a db isn't made for that stuff	01:08
M4rtinK	well, even the tiles themselves are a hack	01:08
Martix	M4rtinK: I agree with DocScrutinizer05, using DB for tiles is crazy	01:08
M4rtinK	vector data would be much more efficient & enable other use cases	01:08
Martix	M4rtinK: even tiles are hack? ok, and you needed to went deeper?	01:09
DocScrutinizer05	datatype blob is basically a filename pointer to a file in detached fs storage	01:09
Martix	M4rtinK: why dont share vector data between apps?	01:09
DocScrutinizer05	that's pretty much standard in every db	01:09
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DocScrutinizer05	and it makes sense since a db is meant to work with the content	01:10
DocScrutinizer05	not to store it	01:10
M4rtinK	DocScrutinizer05: but that would still need the files stored somewhere if I'm not mistaken ?	01:10
M4rtinK	the problem is the FS	01:11
DocScrutinizer05	how would you index or sort or add or average blobs?	01:11
M4rtinK	not an issue on EXT, etc.	01:11
Martix	M4rtinK: anyway, SQL for your usecase is really huge overkill, have you tried at least noSQL dbs?	01:11
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kerio	mongodb is web scale!	01:11
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M4rtinK	Martix: get me something that 1. uses only Python 2.5 stuff, 2. works on the N900 without user intervention, 3. is faster than the current solution	01:12
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DocScrutinizer05	loopmount ext4	01:12
M4rtinK	BTW, the database is not used that often	01:12
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: mmh, you'd need something that grows automatically though	01:13
M4rtinK	modRana has a in-memory cache for visible tiles	01:13
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M4rtinK	so it just grabs 10-20 at a time and that's it	01:13
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Martix	indexed file, I mean same method like video containers use for frames	01:13
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: use a sparse file then?	01:14
M4rtinK	Martix: sure - any Python 2.5 compatible modules for that ?	01:14
* RST38h yawns, moos at Doc thoughtfully		01:14
M4rtinK	BTW, structure of the database is described here: http://modrana.org/trac/wiki/SQLiteStorageDescriptionEN	01:14
Martix	M4rtinK: you can program it yourself, just stop being lazy	01:14
M4rtinK	Martix: thanks a lot for your glorious insight ! :)	01:15
Martix	M4rtinK: your welcome, I'm always happy to help	01:15
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: virtual size 10GB, used 200k, actual size of image file 1MB	01:15
Martix	M4rtinK: just try indexed file approach, thanks!	01:15
DocScrutinizer05	mostly due to inodes	01:15
* DocScrutinizer05 moos at RST38h		01:16
xes	M4rtinK: i have one question for you. Why nobody asked/made somethink to apply a filter before load the tiles? (to tweak a little the colors of some map provider)	01:16
M4rtinK	if this indeed could be used automatically with tools available on the N900, why not	01:16
M4rtinK	xes: already half-implemented	01:17
M4rtinK	the recent versions already have a built-in negative filter support	01:17
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M4rtinK	(using PIL, so it's fast)	01:18
xes	M4rtinK: the result should be make the osm maps vsible under the sun light	01:18
M4rtinK	xes: check options->Map->Filters	01:19
DocScrutinizer05	oh wait, no sparse file on VFAT	01:19
xes	M4rtinK: thanks!	01:19
M4rtinK	shouldnt be that hard to add other filters	01:19
M4rtinK	and regarding vector map rendering: https://github.com/kothic/kothic	01:20
xes	the purpose would be to use the osm cycle maps offroad ;)	01:20
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M4rtinK	it's a very interesting map renderer written in Python that uses Cairo	01:21
M4rtinK	the renderings should look like this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kothic	01:22
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M4rtinK	haven't got time to integrate it with modRana yet - any help with this would be welcome ! :)	01:22
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xes	M4rtinK: really nice! Another little trick missing (afaik) in modrana is a quick jump to a city/place. I have added to the app trackaway a quick search and jump to a place in the map using gns data inserted into a sqlite db: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/	01:25
M4rtinK	xes: search->address online ? :)	01:26
M4rtinK	but yeah, offline database search could be also helpful	01:27
xes	offline search for coordinates giving a place name with the results ordered by distance	01:27
M4rtinK	oh that	01:28
xes	i have created that gns db with the scheme of modrana's poi db ;)	01:28
M4rtinK	oh :D	01:28
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M4rtinK	if you have some sharable script for that, I can add it the the modRana wiki :)	01:28
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xes	if you want try something similar i could send you the scripts to import gns into sqlite	01:29
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xes	then the function to calculate spherical distance is just bash	01:30
M4rtinK	xes: sure :)	01:30
xes	quick and dirty :)	01:30
M4rtinK	xes: I guess the POI handling in modRana could use an improvement	01:31
M4rtinK	if you have many POIs, it could be quite tedious currently	01:31
M4rtinK	I should add at least some sorting	01:31
M4rtinK	distance/name	01:32
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M4rtinK	& search	01:32
M4rtinK	and built-int import would be nice :)	01:33
vdv	is there any new pdf reader for n900?	01:34
xes	fine! I'm going to search for that scripts and as soon as i find them i'll send you all	01:34
vdv	or nothing better than evince?	01:34
M4rtinK	OK :)	01:34
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M4rtinK	xes: thanks :)	01:34
xes	M4rtinK: thanks to you!	01:34
Estel_	kerio, do you have kernel-power headers installed on your dev enviromnent?	01:34
XDS2010	whats the easiest way to do a full backup of a n900 ?	01:34
XDS2010	im selling mine	01:34
Estel_	hi M4rtinK :)	01:34
Estel_	nice to see you, xes had some great idea for modrana	01:35
Estel_	sorry if re-writing something, just going to read backlog - some fool kicked me, while I was eating	01:35
vdv	if "setxkbmap my_custom_layout" gives no error and custom layout works also ok, then is "gconftool-2 -s -t string /apps/osso/inputmethod/int_kb_layout my_custom_layout" safe? :)	01:36
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XDS2010	what do i need to do to do a complete backup of my n900 ?	01:39
XDS2010	will pc suite do it ?	01:39
SpeedEvil	I'm unsure	01:40
SpeedEvil	I don't think so	01:40
Estel_	M4rtinK, lol, just saw Martix suggesting you to spend xxx hours on coding something just for the sake of it. What a valuable contribution :P	01:40
Estel_	Martix, though about douing it yourself and submitting patch?	01:40
SpeedEvil	I'm forgetting the name of the backup tool	01:41
Estel_	SpeedEvil, thanks for suggestion about digitizer	01:41
SpeedEvil	there is one in the repos	01:41
SpeedEvil	Estel_: ?	01:41
Estel_	SpeedEvil, backupmenu?	01:41
SpeedEvil	ah - yes - that	01:41
Estel_	SpeedEvil, repairing digitizer. i'm just unsure what border garbage you mean?	01:41
Martix	Estel_: are you suggesting different solution? perhaps already available as Python 2.5 module?	01:41
Estel_	Macer, sure, keeping current solution, as it works fast and reliably	01:41
SpeedEvil	Estel_: Sorry - context fail	01:41
vdv	is qtsdk not free anymore?	01:42
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Estel_	SpeedEvil, I asked about any ideas why digitizer in ideal condition may workk 100% ok then, after 10 minutes, act like one part is pressed 100% of time	01:42
Estel_	no visible damage, etc	01:42
Estel_	not even single scratch, so I just wanted to try messing with reviving it	01:42
kerio	pressure damage?	01:43
Martix	Estel_: or are you just trying to troll on my account?	01:43
Estel_	kerio, suspecting that - guy owning it was using it while snowboarding, so I first suspected moisture, but no signs of it. Also, I've kept it in silica bag overnight	01:43
SpeedEvil	Silica bag doesn't really remove all water.	01:44
SpeedEvil	I'd recommend washing in distilled water, plus a week at 50C	01:44
Estel_	Macer, just stating that suggesting a hard working developer to freplace 100% working solution with something else just to satisfy you - without submitting patch yourself - is luser way of doing it	01:44
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Estel_	SpeedEvil, hm... anyway, I suspect it to be a damage due to pressure at one point	01:44
M4rtinK	BTW, for anyone interested, the modRana upstream repository is here: https://github.com/M4rtinK/modrana	01:44
Estel_	had smth like that once, and "massaging" digitizerr + some time helped	01:45
Estel_	problems never returned	01:45
Martix	Estel_: delegating is crucial part of timemanagement :-)	01:45
Estel_	but this one digitizer is strange, I suspect while he was snowboarding, something pressed against center of N900 screen	01:45
M4rtinK	Merge requests welcome ! (like the nice one from Wikiwide I've merged just two days ago :) )	01:45
Estel_	:)	01:45
Martix	Estel_: along with setting priorities	01:45
SpeedEvil	Estel - that's also possible	01:46
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Estel_	so changing sqlite database is priority for smth about year 2145	01:46
Estel_	if watching porn doesn't pop up before it	01:46
Estel_	SpeedEvil, anyway I wanted to try checking for that border contamination you've mentioned	01:46
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Estel_	just don't exactly get what it is	01:47
Estel_	otherwise I'm going bitch mode and selling it on ebay, condition "unknown", visually perfect (no single scratch) :P	01:47
Estel_	even huge red warning about buying at own risk and unknown condition won't stop fools from buying due to it having no scratches evil mode	01:49
Estel_	SpeedEvil, so what is border contamination? or you just mean dirt behind it and screen? in that case nope, as I disassembled it to barebones	01:49
SpeedEvil	Estel - if stuff gets damp, especially if the water is not pure, nasty stuff happens.	01:49
SpeedEvil	This includes electroplating inside the PCB.	01:50
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SpeedEvil	For more mild cases, washing off the PCB, perhaps with mild brushing, and distilled water, then very thorough drying can help	01:50
Estel_	sure thing, will try destiled water... Still, I bet on pressure damage, just curious why no visual symptomes	01:51
Estel_	you mean pcb of digitizer?	01:51
Estel_	(only digitizer is fubar)	01:51
XDS2010	i can't get backup menu to install for some odd reason	01:52
Estel_	btw as for silica bag I mean 0.5 kg bag and digitizer was inside :P	01:52
XDS2010	installation failed ?	01:52
Estel_	XDS2010, logs please?	01:52
XDS2010	Estel_: not sure i can get to them atm	01:52
XDS2010	ill try	01:52
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XDS2010	Estel_: what are we looking for ?	01:53
Estel_	sure you can, use apt or fapman	01:53
Estel_	whole log after apt-get install backupmenu	01:53
Estel_	pastebinned somewhere (for example, zerobin)	01:53
M4rtinK	good night ! :)	01:54
XDS2010	Estel_: spru.ng work :P	01:54
XDS2010	some crazy error about disk space	01:54
Estel_	bb M4rtinK	01:55
xes	M4rtinK:	01:55
xes	M4rtinK: just found the scripts	01:56
XDS2010	Estel_: it says required diskspace isn't enough ? thats not possible	01:56
XDS2010	im not connected in mass storage or pc suite mode either	01:57
Estel_	rootfs not full?	01:57
XDS2010	nope	01:58
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XDS2010	ah i see the error :)	02:01
XDS2010	checksum mismatch Estel_	02:01
XDS2010	hash sum rather	02:01
Estel_	yea.	02:01
XDS2010	how do i fix ?	02:01
Estel_	~mirrors	02:01
infobot	mirror is, like, http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error	02:01
XDS2010	:)	02:01
Estel_	use latest	02:01
Estel_	last*	02:01
XDS2010	k	02:01
Estel_	extras-devel.merlin etc	02:01
XDS2010	ty	02:02
XDS2010	cli to direct ?	02:02
XDS2010	can i just plugin a direct command to download or do i still need to add them ?	02:02
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Macer	Estel_: huh?	02:07
Macer	oh. you mean me asking why there isn't any expansion into other hardware?	02:09
DocScrutinizer05	Martix: don't get trolled, there's no "xxx hours of coding" time needed to implement a sql db table with filename as primary key and start offset in bytes as second field in the record, then use seek() and write()/read() to get the tile you want. after all it's a grow-only delete-never set of data and sql already gets used. I gather the whole thing takes ~10 lines of code and maybe 30 min max	02:10
Macer	i suppose considering i am not a developer... but it is still a suggestion. or are we to stop giving those too?	02:10
DocScrutinizer05	Macer: I guess it's been -ETAB	02:11
Macer	oh	02:12
Macer	she was talking to someone else heh	02:12
Macer	-ETAB ?	02:12
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DocScrutinizer05	<tab> nick-expansion	02:12
Macer	oh	02:12
Macer	yah	02:12
Macer	when is this new ubuntu phone coming out?	02:13
jacekowski	Estel_: point people towards new rmo when they have hash sums problem	02:14
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: ack	02:14
Macer	http://global.christianpost.com/news/ubuntu-phone-release-date-set-for-april-2014-87649/	02:14
Macer	april 2014 lol	02:14
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: though, is it really working when you use IP instead URL in catalogs?	02:14
Estel_	jacekowski, sure, just habit due to last month or so :P	02:15
Estel_	ip works for catalogs	02:15
Estel_	what was that ip?	02:15
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: I guess it will work just fine with /etc/hosts hack, but with IP instead URL I'm not so sure	02:16
Estel_	at least in fapman it does	02:16
* Estel_ checks ip from own catalogs		02:16
DocScrutinizer05	I feel temped to kick again	02:16
Estel_	Macer, ubuntu phone is going to be a shit - no Ui compatibility with anything from desktop, even 2x2x pixel wide	02:17
DocScrutinizer05	<Estel_> ip works for catalogs <Estel_> at least in fapman it does	02:17
Estel_	deesktop mode when conencted to tv is only fake	02:17
DocScrutinizer05	shows clearly why fapman is shit and nobody understands what HAM is actually doing	02:18
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, so kick and stop boring me? if contributing to testing new repos is reason to kick, do it and, later, go and fap man.	02:18
Estel_	so what? I just said that it works in fapman, your constant kicking pestering is pathetic.	02:18
Macer	Estel_: the same was said for android using a non X based ui	02:18
Estel_	go and contribute yourself by mtesting it in ham.	02:18
Macer	that seemed to work out well :)	02:18
Estel_	android work out well? wrong target group, i think	02:19
DocScrutinizer05	go and fuck yourself	02:19
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Estel_	I'm off for today, enough of DocScrutinizer05 bullshit today - remember to take your pills tomorrow guy, as today you're unbearable.	02:19
Macer	Estel_: yeah i mean worked as far as continuing on without dying	02:19
Macer	do you think maemo would have died had nokia sold as many N900s as HTC sold G1s?	02:20
* xes is looking for the train.....is it arriving?		02:20
Macer	then again though... i'm sure you can blame poor marketing on the part of nokia for that whereas googel was all hyped up at the time	02:20
GeneralAntilles	Probably	02:20
GeneralAntilles	Maemo dying didn't have much to do with Maemo	02:21
GeneralAntilles	But more to do with Symbian's performance and Microsoft offering boatloads of cash.	02:21
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Macer	either way i am sure the advent of giant companies jumping onboard helped	02:22
RST38h	Hi General, Macer	02:22
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: just in case more than just this one fool didn't understand my concerns: HAM is testing repository against signing key. I suspect thet URL might be a part of that test	02:22
Macer	RST38h: hey :)	02:22
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DocScrutinizer05	that*	02:23
Macer	either way... given the fact that it seems possible it would be awesome for maemo and ubuntu to get together in order to produce a great finished product	02:23
Macer	something worthwhile to the cattle	02:23
RST38h	Forget Maemo for now, look at this little gem:	02:23
RST38h	"If you've done what you want for Ubuntu, then move on. That's normal there's no need to poison the well behind you just because you want to try something else." -- Mark Shuttleworth to Ubuntu contributors	02:23
Macer	lol	02:23
Macer	seems like good advice	02:24
RST38h	Mark Shuttleworth lays an egg. News at 11.	02:24
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RST38h	Macer: Yeah, remember what happened to Gnome after their head cheese made similar advice to Gnome users?	02:24
Martix	DocScrutinizer05: I agree, it's easyjob	02:25
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DocScrutinizer05	easy like hello-world	02:25
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rm_you	anyone here in Spain? and/or, has ever taken the AVE trains / Renfe trains?	02:30
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: well, we are signing with official keys and with hosts hack there is no way to tell those two apart (from ham perspective)	02:30
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DocScrutinizer05	renfe, yes, but decades ago	02:30
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Macer	RST38h: not really. i didn't like gnome that much :)	02:31
Macer	didn't keep up	02:31
Macer	did he have an exodus of people to kde/qt? heh	02:31
Macer	either way... the ubuntu phones actually look kind of neat	02:31
Macer	but i'll believe it when i see it ;)	02:31
Macer	heh	02:31
Macer	Read more at http://global.christianpost.com/news/ubuntu-phone-release-date-set-for-april-2014-87649/#12PFTfqb13woX1Db.99	02:31
Macer	grr	02:31
Macer	i seriously need to find out how they're doing that	02:31
Macer	when you copy txt it pastes the address instead of the txt	02:31
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DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: yes, that's what I said: /etc/hosts hack will most probably work	02:31
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rm_you	DocScrutinizer05: heh, trying to buy tickets, not sure wtf is with the P/P+ tickets, and deciding between the Estrella overnight or the AVE high speed, to get from Barcelona to Madrid	02:31
RST38h	Macer: I am getting "Nigeria Archbishop Renounces Execution Order and Calls for more Aggressive Response	02:32
RST38h	Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/nigeria-archbishop-renounces-execution-order-and-calls-for-more-aggressive-response-20/#MeDsMVditLpDMhvw.99	02:32
Macer	yeah... wtf? :)	02:32
DocScrutinizer05	rm_you: no idea, sorry	02:32
RST38h	Macer: Has Shuttleworth moved to Nigeria and become an archbishop?	02:32
Macer	that woudl be awesome!	02:32
rm_you	np, will just keep asking the channel	02:32
Macer	talk about a strange twist haha	02:32
Macer	http://global.christianpost.com/news/ubuntu-phone-release-date-set-for-april-2014-87649/	02:32
Macer	that was the article about the ubuntu phones	02:32
rm_you	this channel is my best bet for advice about European stuff >_>	02:32
DocScrutinizer05	rm_you: alas javispedro isn't around anymore	02:32
Macer	on christianpost.com? :)	02:32
rm_you	qgil would know too :P	02:33
rm_you	doesn't he have a place in Barcelona?	02:33
DocScrutinizer05	might be	02:33
Macer	http://www.news24.com/Technology/News/Ubuntu-phone-coming-with-new-ecosystem-20130306	02:33
Macer	that looks a bit qtish	02:33
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RST38h	Have they rewritten Qt already?	02:33
Macer	lol	02:34
Macer	like java?	02:34
Macer	:)	02:34
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Macer	i'm just saying. going by that pic... it looks like symbian belle heh	02:34
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* Macer sheds a tear for belle		02:35
Macer	the little symbian that should have	02:35
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Macer	Collins: Ubuntu for smartphones is currently an early build which we will continue to develop over the coming months. At the moment, we recommend that only experienced developers flash their spare phones (Nexus 4 and Google Nexus models) with Ubuntu.	02:37
Macer	i wonder if they got motorola to make them an ubuntu phone heh	02:38
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XDS2010	is there a way i can just ignore the hash sum issue ?	02:50
XDS2010	just need to get this damn backupmenu deb installed	02:51
XDS2010	~mirrors	02:51
infobot	from memory, mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error	02:51
XDS2010	i added the mirrors and still have hash sum issues	02:52
XDS2010	Estel_: can u help ?	02:56
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DocScrutinizer05	XDS2010: some wise man said "when HAM or apt throws error about hashsum, the file already got downloaded to /var/apt/cache [or sth like that]. Just go find it and install with dpkg -i "	03:04
XDS2010	:-/ tried that it didn't work	03:05
DocScrutinizer05	XDS2010: btw you're not supposed to add "the mirrors" but only one of them	03:05
XDS2010	maybe the file got misplaced somehow	03:05
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1315931&postcount=4	03:05
XDS2010	this is what i did	03:05
DocScrutinizer05	particularly extras-devel.merlin1991.at	03:05
XDS2010	yea i added that	03:06
DocScrutinizer05	and nothing else?	03:06
XDS2010	thats all i added yea	03:06
XDS2010	as -user	03:06
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DocScrutinizer05	then disable extras-devel and fine you are	03:06
DocScrutinizer05	if you done it in HAM's "add catalogs"	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	should work afaik	03:07
XDS2010	AFAYK!?	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	03:07
XDS2010	blind leading blind in hear	03:08
DocScrutinizer05	do you need a written warranty?	03:08
XDS2010	here*	03:08
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: if this doesn't get fixed im going to lose 200$ so yea kinda would like one of those	03:08
DocScrutinizer05	or better ask estel who's never doubting any of his own statements ;-P	03:08
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: :-/ sorry its the end of the day im in a cranky mood	03:09
DocScrutinizer05	which doesn't mean his advice is any better, but maybe you feel better when he tells you how to solve your issues	03:09
XDS2010	i wish i had a gun and a bullseye target right now	03:10
XDS2010	ok let me try removing devel	03:10
DocScrutinizer05	you shall not remove it	03:11
DocScrutinizer05	you shall listen to what people advice	03:11
DocScrutinizer05	I said "disable"	03:11
XDS2010	ok thank you for the clarification	03:11
XDS2010	advise*	03:11
XDS2010	:P	03:12
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: do you think i should sell it ?	03:12
DocScrutinizer05	actually I said "disable in HAM catalogs" - though that's been not that verbatim	03:12
XDS2010	:-/ i have cold feet	03:12
DocScrutinizer05	then keep it, it makes for a nice warming pad when you run weird stuff on it	03:13
rm_you	DocScrutinizer05: know anything about DBBahn trains?	03:15
DocScrutinizer05	honstly, I don't get it what's your problem. N900 is unbrickable (virtually). It also has a builtin backup app that's pretty fine for doing backup of all your contacts and messages and accounts and appointments and stuff	03:16
DocScrutinizer05	rm_you: a bit more, sounds familiar	03:16
DocScrutinizer05	rm_you: shoot	03:17
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: im trying to get a 4s on a9406. im going after the blue unicorn. I wanna find the bitch and catch her.	03:17
nox-	rm_you, the official java applet or what its called more or less runs in the emulator, and there are other timetable apps too	03:18
DocScrutinizer05	XDS2010: are you sure your current state is the right one to mess with catalogs and stuff?	03:18
rm_you	nox-: oh, neat	03:18
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: no :)	03:18
DocScrutinizer05	rm_you: fahrplan uses DB web interface	03:18
rm_you	DocScrutinizer05: trying to figure out what "open saloon" "open saloon with table" and such is, and if it matters if we're buying 2nd class tickets	03:19
nox-	yeah fahrplan was the one iirc	03:19
DocScrutinizer05	rm_you: 1st class is twice as expensive and usually not worth it except when you have too much money to spend	03:19
nox-	there are a few seats that have a table, gives you more legroom iirc	03:19
nox-	(this in 2nd class)	03:20
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nox-	usually they're sold out quickly tho	03:20
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nox-	the seats with table	03:20
DocScrutinizer05	open saloon probably is a ICE waggon with no partitions	03:20
nox-	yeah	03:20
nox-	thats also what i would think	03:20
DocScrutinizer05	there are seats like in airplane, and some 4 -seat combos with a table in between	03:21
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: it seems Backupmenu is in the testing devel repo. Is there a mirror for that ?	03:21
DocScrutinizer05	XDS2010: there's no app in testig that's not also in devel	03:21
XDS2010	i think i found one	03:21
DocScrutinizer05	since there is no other way for an app to go to testing other than via devel repo	03:22
DocScrutinizer05	that's why I told you nobody needs testing repo	03:22
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: is there a way to have the app manager not check for updates every time i open it?	03:22
DocScrutinizer05	no	03:22
XDS2010	well that sucks	03:23
XDS2010	what a waist of time	03:23
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, but it's not meant to get opened and closed 7 times a day anyway	03:23
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: what if you are a developer working on the appmanager itself	03:23
XDS2010	that would SUCK	03:24
DocScrutinizer05	open it, select catalogs from menu, click "maemo extras" catalog, check "disable". Click 2add catalog", enter the details for merlin catalog, click OK, klick OK, ... wait ...	03:25
XDS2010	.... wait	03:25
XDS2010	........ wait some more	03:25
DocScrutinizer05	7 minutes	03:25
XDS2010	see a trend ?	03:25
DocScrutinizer05	no, I don't see any trend	03:25
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XDS2010	7 minutes each time you open it!?	03:26
DocScrutinizer05	I just see you're complaining about sth I can't change	03:26
XDS2010	yea :-/	03:26
XDS2010	cranky	03:26
DocScrutinizer05	so I get tired of listening	03:26
XDS2010	im in rare form tonight	03:26
DocScrutinizer05	theheck, when I tell you it takes 7 minutes, your answer should be "FINE! time to prepare me a coffee! sth I planned to do since an hour or so"	03:27
XDS2010	DocScrutinizer05: its the point of wasting energy for a process that just does not need to be run a billion times on a billion devices :-/ not saying you're wrong here just a major PITA for some	03:31
XDS2010	then again i could be wrong	03:32
DocScrutinizer05	ping me tomorry. Sorry i'm busy now	03:33
XDS2010	ok	03:34
XDS2010	still not working grrrr	03:36
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XDS2010	is there some other easier solution to do a baremetal backup ?	03:41
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XDS2010	i have access to a linux box if that makes any difference	03:44
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Estel_	XDS, you may tar your rootfs and optfs manually, ommiting unnecessary directories	03:50
Estel_	but backupmenu installation MUST work	03:50
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ManoftheSea_	Hello	03:51
ManoftheSea_	I've been running into a problem with my n900... it claims I have broken packages, when I run apt-get, it tells me keys are expired. Is there a known fix?	03:52
XDS2010	ManoftheSea_: welcome to my hell	03:53
ManoftheSea_	your hell? Who died and put you in charge? :)	03:53
XDS2010	ManoftheSea_: Poseidon himself	03:53
ManoftheSea_	that's not hell, that's the sea	03:53
XDS2010	Well then welcome to your hell	03:54
ManoftheSea_	hooray. Time to change the window dressing!	03:54
ManoftheSea_	So... it's a known issue with no current fix?	03:54
ManoftheSea_	awesome.	03:54
XDS2010	WIP	03:55
ManoftheSea_	yep.	03:55
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DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: no way	03:58
DocScrutinizer05	there's several known fixes	03:58
DocScrutinizer05	~mirrors	03:59
infobot	hmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error	03:59
ManoftheSea_	now I've got "BADSIG 4v1"	03:59
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: btw your report doesn't sound exactly like "problems"	04:00
ManoftheSea_	hmm? problem, singular? or is it not a problem at all?	04:01
DocScrutinizer05	there's no pending update, particularly no security update, not even a minor pkg update pending. The "broken packages" message doesn't seem to have any negative consequences in itself	04:02
Estel_	but, expired keys are just warning	04:02
ManoftheSea_	well, I can't install things. That's a problem.	04:02
DocScrutinizer05	to put it straight: is anything except HAM not working for you?	04:02
DocScrutinizer05	aah, ok. You want to install something	04:03
Estel_	official repos are... wait, why I'm writing this, Council member is here, so he could explain POLITELY to a new user why things are looking like that	04:03
DocScrutinizer05	well, that's a tiny bit complicated though not impossible right now	04:03
Estel_	will be a difference from arguing over nonsense and kicking people from channel ;)	04:03
DocScrutinizer05	will be fixed in a week the latest	04:03
ManoftheSea_	Yes. Apt-get wouldn't install, faster-application-manager wouldn't install.	04:04
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: yeah, why you ewaste your time writing such provocant bullshit? begging for another kick?	04:04
Estel_	eh, as it doesn't seems like you're going to get meaningful info - for now, you can a) use fapman b) "hack" your /etc/hosts and point repos to new IP, as dns is not updated, and, despite what DocScrutinizer05 said, no one know if it will be in week time...	04:04
Estel_	c) use mirrors as per:	04:04
Estel_	~mirrors	04:05
infobot	hmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error	04:05
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-03-08 02:59:08] <DocScrutinizer05> ~mirrors	04:05
DocScrutinizer05	[2013-03-08 02:59:10] <infobot> hmm... mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error	04:05
DocScrutinizer05	more provocant BS	04:05
Estel_	in latest case, remember to disable normal repos though (only those that get mirrored, not nokia apps, for example)	04:05
ManoftheSea_	esaym153: are you saying I'm the "new user"?	04:05
ManoftheSea_	er, Estel_	04:05
ManoftheSea_	damn tab-complete	04:05
Estel_	ManoftheSea_, new to the subject	04:05
Estel_	of broken repos	04:05
Estel_	(it's like that since month or so)	04:06
Estel_	not necessary to N900 :) I also haven't seen youa round irc, thus "new" part	04:06
DocScrutinizer05	more BS	04:06
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ManoftheSea_	ok. I've been here before, but not frequently. Also, yeah, I probably haven't tried to get new packages for that long. Just check updates every once in a while, and haven't seen anything show up.	04:07
* Estel_ nods		04:07
ManoftheSea_	I recently wanted to grab syncevolution, and then started with problems.	04:07
ManoftheSea_	well, problem singular.	04:07
Estel_	well, no new packages for simillar time, as autobuilder was (and is, although THIS thing may get fixed in this week) down	04:07
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: go for extras-devel.merlin1991.at, or check our great new repo at IPHH	04:08
DocScrutinizer05	which got fixed hashsums yesterday	04:08
Estel_	so new packages were distributed via .deb's or .tar's on TMO	04:08
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, he need IP for new great	04:08
Estel_	which you haven't provided him ;)	04:09
ManoftheSea_	Thanks doc	04:09
DocScrutinizer05	ORLY?!	04:09
ManoftheSea_	I'm reading the thread.	04:09
Estel_	also, are you sure that domain will get redirected in a week time? :)	04:09
ManoftheSea_	Estel_: I use an n900, I'm willing to be patient and learn. You're a little angry. Say woosah, take some time for yourself.	04:09
Estel_	I wouldn't tell people with such certainity, that they could start using old repo adress in week.	04:09
Estel_	ManoftheSea_, I'm angry at you? 0_o?	04:09
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, since you got no idea what we're actually doing	04:10
DocScrutinizer05	and what we can do, or plan to do	04:10
DocScrutinizer05	you prefer to spill shit on others	04:10
Estel_	I'm just a little tongue-in-check about DocScrutinizer05, which was quite unbearable for last few hours, but I don't necessary see how it radiates on you ManoftheSea_ ;)	04:11
rm_you	anyone have experience with Vueling air?	04:11
Estel_	with doing what to air?	04:11
rm_you	lol	04:11
rm_you	it's a Spanish airline	04:11
ManoftheSea_	doc, IPHH?	04:12
Estel_	:) 0 experience	04:12
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: mompls	04:12
Estel_	IPHH is company that provided Maemo with free hosting	04:12
Estel_	...with DocScrutinizer05 encourage you to use as jacekowski (autobuilder maintainer) asked, yet, still failed to provide you with IP address :P	04:13
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: http://213.128.137.28/showthread.php?p=1325297	04:13
ManoftheSea_	is there a reason I'd want to go back to repo.maemo.org, or can I set the mirrors and forget about the issue?	04:13
Estel_	mirrors won't get updated very soon, while new packages may start to appear in week time or so	04:14
Estel_	some minor appeared already	04:14
Estel_	minor ones*	04:14
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Estel_	mirrors probably will keep being frozen for some time	04:14
DocScrutinizer05	dear estel, sir, this is since I know a IP alone won't suffice. Unlike you	04:14
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DocScrutinizer05	that's why i'm looking for decent info for ManoftheSea_ whom I know since long from here in irc	04:15
Estel_	whatever you mean by that sentence, I dully accept it and like your polite tone :)	04:15
DocScrutinizer05	well, if you don't know what that sentence means, you're more dull than I thought	04:15
ManoftheSea_	(dully) lol	04:15
Estel_	ManoftheSea_, what do you expect at this hour ;)	04:16
Estel_	anyway, goodbye, for good tonight :) have fun and don't went berseker, some of you! ;)	04:16
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1327342#post1327342	04:17
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: you need further explanaitons for >> patch your /etc/hosts.<< ?	04:18
ManoftheSea_	no, that's sensible to me.	04:19
ManoftheSea_	213.128.137.22, as it says in that thread.	04:19
ManoftheSea_	hmm... it looked almost like T-mo was blocking me from using skeiron... got a gateway timeout on WCDMA, but worked on wifi...	04:20
DocScrutinizer05	yep, basically just do `echo 213.128.137.22 repository.maemo.org >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root	04:20
* ManoftheSea_ says no extra info needed. Doc, being such a great guy, gives extra info anyway.		04:20
DocScrutinizer05	the new repo is supposed to have no hashsum errors	04:21
DocScrutinizer05	if it doesn't work, fallback to merlin mirror as of above	04:22
DocScrutinizer05	if it works for you, you're welcome to stay on that repo, it will become 'official' in a week or two anyway	04:22
DocScrutinizer05	and it actually might have some new packages that aren't available anywhere else	04:23
DocScrutinizer05	since we got autobuilder to work it seems	04:23
ManoftheSea_	I'm checking for updates now.	04:24
ManoftheSea_	Also, I think you'd helped me with the "broken usb" problem too. Ultimate solution was to lift and shift the OS to a new, cosmetically damaged n900.	04:24
ManoftheSea_	I don't mind that it's got a scratch, as long as I still have my linux pocket computer.	04:25
DocScrutinizer05	:-)	04:25
ManoftheSea_	Thanks Doc. It looks like the hosts edit has resolved the "bad key" or "expired key" messages.	04:34
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ManoftheSea_	I had a chance to mess with a nexus 4 recently... I came back to n900. Even for $0.	04:34
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GeneralAntilles	ManoftheSea_, Android is truly horrid.	04:37
ManoftheSea_	Per-process mounts.	04:37
ManoftheSea_	without a location for shared mounts.	04:37
ManoftheSea_	The walled garden isn't even very nice...	04:38
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ManoftheSea_	can't find libpcre3... should I have both CSSU and CSSU_testing on?	04:41
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: thanks for report about rmo_new. Glad to hear it works for you	04:42
DocScrutinizer05	~rmo-new is do `echo 213.128.137.22 repository.maemo.org >>/etc/hosts` on your N900, as root	04:43
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	04:43
DocScrutinizer05	~literal mirrors	04:43
infobot	"#maemo mirrors" is "<reply>see mirror"	04:43
DocScrutinizer05	~literal mirror	04:44
infobot	"#maemo mirror" is "http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error"	04:44
DocScrutinizer05	~#maemo mirror is also see ~rmo-new	04:44
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	04:44
DocScrutinizer05	~mirror	04:44
infobot	i guess mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143 http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/, or extras-devel.merlin1991.at - for fighting hashsum error, or see ~rmo-new	04:44
DocScrutinizer05	~rmo-new is also http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1327342#post1327342	04:45
infobot	okay, DocScrutinizer05	04:45
DocScrutinizer05	moinmoin GeneralAntilles	04:45
ManoftheSea_	so... I can't find libpcre3 because it's not mirrored? Or I don't have the right mirror?	04:49
DocScrutinizer05	I never heard of libpcre3	04:50
DocScrutinizer05	but the mirrors are just that: mirrors. They shouldn't lack anything that been there on source repo 8 weeks ago#	04:51
DocScrutinizer05	well, merlin's repo is actually more than just a mirror, he rebuilt the .desc files	04:52
thedead1440	hmm libpcre3 is from official nokia repos	04:52
DocScrutinizer05	stll no reason why any pkg could miss	04:52
DocScrutinizer05	ooooh	04:52
thedead1440	its not from rmo so why can't you find it ManoftheSea_?	04:53
DocScrutinizer05	key expired problem?	04:53
thedead1440	i don't think so; it was installed for me but apt-get install -d --reinstall and it downloaded fine	04:53
DocScrutinizer05	hmm	04:54
DocScrutinizer05	nfc	04:54
thedead1440	apt-cache search also revealed it	04:54
thedead1440	maybe some typo by ManoftheSea_	04:54
DocScrutinizer05	ManoftheSea_: yeah, try apt-cache search	04:54
DocScrutinizer05	with substring	04:54
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DocScrutinizer05	don't forget apt-get update! ;-)	04:55
ManoftheSea_	So the official repo should still be engaged?	04:55
DocScrutinizer05	the nokia ones yes	04:55
* DocScrutinizer05 thought they can't get disabled anyway		04:56
thedead1440	iirc you can disable them in HAM but i haven't used HAM since mid-Jan so not sure	04:58
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ManoftheSea_	ALRIGHT! I seem to be fully fixed. Thanks be to you, DocScrutinizer05	05:03
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DocScrutinizer05	yw, thanks for testing	05:03
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Macer	im actually really excited about the ubuntu phones	05:18
Macer	i wonder if they will have xtterm and a gnu userland	05:18
Macer	like maemo	05:18
Hurrian	Macer: it's an Android userland	05:19
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DocScrutinizer05	lol, gnu userland	05:19
Macer	wow really? thats no fun	05:19
Macer	heh	05:19
DocScrutinizer05	that's canonical, Macer!	05:19
Macer	:)	05:19
Macer	well.. i just mean it would be nice to have the arm repo	05:20
Macer	similar to maemo	05:20
Macer	although it was interesting to hear theyre dropping xorg	05:20
Macer	for the other method... cant remember	05:20
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Hurrian	Mir.	05:20
DocScrutinizer05	interesting? :-o	05:20
Macer	the one all linux should have swapped to years ago	05:20
Macer	yes	05:20
Macer	it is a goood thing	05:20
DocScrutinizer05	suuure	05:21
Macer	leave it to linux to cling to obsolete things :)	05:21
Hurrian	I have no idea why Canonical's going with Mir instead of Wayland	05:21
Macer	like gtk vs qt	05:21
Macer	no matter how they try to dress up gtk it still looks like win 3.1	05:21
Macer	qt based stuff looks so much cleaner	05:22
DocScrutinizer05	no matter what they do to qt>3, it feels like coded by fools	05:22
Macer	maybe... but it still looks nicer ;)	05:22
Macer	i mean look at most of the bloated python stuff out there nowadays	05:23
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Macer	seems to get the job done and doesnt seen to be going anywhere	05:23
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Macer	seem	05:23
DocScrutinizer05	honestly, for the few hours my embedded device can run on qt until battery empty, I wouldn't want less than that	05:23
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Macer	heh... i suppose, but that is a matter of refinement	05:24
Macer	still need a base	05:24
Macer	, and like i said, it	05:24
Macer	isnt lik	05:24
Macer	wtf?	05:24
Macer	sorry	05:24
Macer	it isn't like maemo seems to be expanding to newer platforms any time soon	05:25
Macer	and last i recall there was a big push to qt in maemo as well	05:25
DocScrutinizer05	that doesn't make it better	05:25
Macer	and symbian seems to last a very long time running qt based stuff	05:25
Macer	maybe not, but more people will buy new than look for something used to try something with	05:26
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	05:26
Macer	ie: you wont find an overabundance of new users clamoring for an old n900	05:26
DocScrutinizer05	how is that relevant for me?	05:26
Macer	heh. i guess it isnt if you want to run a platform that only you have and dev on after the rest of the n900s fade out of existance	05:27
DocScrutinizer05	my friends ask me where to get a new N900. I don't need to impress them with newest model iPhone or whatever	05:27
DocScrutinizer05	well, while your philosophy sounds like suicide to avoid natural death	05:28
Macer	and your answer is probably "they dont make them anymore but..."	05:28
Macer	so to a new user that is most likely a turnoff	05:29
DocScrutinizer05	again, how's that relevant?	05:29
Macer	not to mention after the support gathered from what is left of the community...	05:29
Macer	and the companies providing free hosting give up doing it	05:29
Macer	it will essentially spell the end of maemo without any community appeal or harsh community reduction	05:30
Macer	who don ates if they have nothing to do nate for?	05:30
DocScrutinizer05	yeah, and you going old and lame and can't see anymore the brilliant UI of your shiny new ubuntu phone. Honestly, what are we talking about?	05:30
Macer	it is a step in the right direction, maemo should try to jump on the boat with its devs and support	05:31
DocScrutinizer05	bullshit	05:31
DocScrutinizer05	take that elsewhere	05:31
Macer	it means a lot of the maemo base can be integrated	05:31
DocScrutinizer05	we heard this tune since around 3..4 years now	05:32
Macer	like the battery saving techniques etc	05:32
Macer	and what has happened in 3-4 years other than about 4 abandoned devices and pulled support?	05:32
DocScrutinizer05	fine! go and integrate it wherever you like. Maybe come back and present the result, and you might actually lure a few of us over on your side	05:32
Macer	with maemo on more than nokia, or at least the good bits it continues on and contributes to the ultimate goal	05:33
DocScrutinizer05	pff	05:33
DocScrutinizer05	ultimate goal	05:33
DocScrutinizer05	bwahaha	05:33
Macer	fine. your choice to be hardheaded	05:33
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Macer	to each their own	05:33
DocScrutinizer05	your choice is to come here and try to teach us what to do	05:34
Macer	im looking at it from an economics point of view, wasnt telling you what to do, but making a suggestion	05:35
Macer	no customers = no money and support	05:35
DocScrutinizer05	who cares?	05:35
DocScrutinizer05	isn't my money	05:35
* Macer facepalm		05:35
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Macer	yeah	05:35
Macer	that is a big point. it isnt your money	05:35
DocScrutinizer05	so honestly what you're trying to sell to us here?	05:36
Macer	im not selling you anything... i am just saying that the work maemo has done can contribute to a continued existance of a real linux device	05:37
Macer	instead of fading into non existance, it could be a community revival	05:37
DocScrutinizer05	smae old lame "why do you bother about telepathy on maemo? come over to meego and do it better on that platform, it's the future!" tune?	05:37
Macer	with... more hardware to work with	05:37
Macer	maybe... but better than sitting around doing nothing but trying to sell Hummer SUVs when nobody wants them anymore ;)	05:38
rm_you	coming in halfway through here, though I can't help but see Macer's point >_>	05:38
DocScrutinizer05	xprism: yes, SHR got ported to N900	05:38
Macer	maemo is great	05:38
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Macer	it would be a shame to see it die	05:38
rm_you	it's already dieing now... <_<	05:39
rm_you	no real infusion in sight	05:39
Macer	right now ubuntu runs on android devices	05:39
DocScrutinizer05	Macer: you can sell whatever you want, to whomever you want. But I don't buy your "take the alternative" preaching. since there is no alternative	05:39
Macer	actual devices coming soon. not just the n9 like meego	05:39
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Macer	i am not saying take the alternative	05:40
Macer	but to disregard the opportunity ...	05:40
Macer	even if you dont jump onboard	05:40
Macer	it would still be unwise not to even consider the ability to find new hardware	05:40
Macer	simplu due to either pride or hardheadedness	05:41
Macer	simply	05:41
DocScrutinizer05	Macer: and maemo will die from guys like you suggesting we all bin our N900 and move on to something else, since "maemo on N900 is dieing anyway, so why stay here?"	05:41
Macer	im not saying that either	05:41
Macer	n900 is a great device	05:41
Macer	if it doesnt break on you	05:41
Snafu777	Mine ain't broke	05:42
Macer	but the simple fact is... it isnt being made anymore	05:42
Snafu777	I love my n900	05:42
DocScrutinizer05	SO WHAT?	05:42
Macer	plus... who is to say you cant bring some of the ubuntu code to the n900 as well?	05:42
Snafu777	There will most likely always be parts for it	05:42
* Macer sighs		05:42
DocScrutinizer05	too bad for you that yours broke and you can't find a new one	05:42
Macer	very well	05:42
Macer	i can	05:42
Macer	no point in arguing with a stone head	05:43
Macer	patience is a virtue	05:43
DocScrutinizer05	Macer: you're not arguing, you can't even make a clear statement what's your point	05:43
Macer	if you cant find the point then there is no point in continuing the conversation	05:44
Macer	like i said... to each their own	05:44
DocScrutinizer05	((<Macer> it is a step in the right direction, maemo should try to jump on the boat with its devs and support)) how the fsck would that look like?	05:45
Macer	youre a dev, i majored in economics.. not cs.. and see no good endgame to maemo	05:45
Macer	but you made your position clear	05:45
Macer	so.... the end.	05:45
DocScrutinizer05	yeah. the end. Like I said above, you're free to port the FOSS bits of maemo to wherever you like. And after you've done, come back here and present your achievements. That's the only way to convince somebody in here to follow you	05:46
Macer	but i will leave you with... maemo4 maemo5 meego.. ultimate limitations to awesome mobile operating systems: viable continuing hardware	05:47
Macer	no need	05:47
DocScrutinizer05	well, council will not declare maemo dead and suggest every maemo community member gets an ubuntu phone now and start to port maemo to it	05:48
Macer	didnt say that either	05:49
DocScrutinizer05	so I really don't see what's all your bickering all about	05:49
Macer	but that is how you see it	05:49
Macer	so be it	05:49
Macer	if you cant see the obvious vision.. then live blindly	05:49
DocScrutinizer05	not everybody who can't see your visions is blind	05:49
DocScrutinizer05	s/visions/delusions/	05:50
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: not everybody who can't see your delusions is blind	05:50
Snafu777	Unless I can packet inject I would never switch	05:50
Macer	Snafu777: lol!	05:50
Macer	fair enough :)	05:50
Snafu777	N900 is one of a kind	05:50
Snafu777	Only phone of its kind in the world	05:50
Snafu777	Until somebody invents a kernel that works for packet injection on another cell phone, this community will be around for a long long time	05:52
Macer	maybe later when someone ports ubuntu to it you will still be able to do it lol	05:52
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders why it's always those who don't own a (working) N900 who come here ans suggest "maemo should jump there, maemo should go this way..."		05:52
Snafu777	Why would I want Ubuntu?	05:52
Snafu777	I have a Linux environment on my phone tht works perfect	05:53
Macer	DocScrutinizer05: you misunderstand, having had 2 the n900 and maemo is awesome	05:53
DocScrutinizer05	as if maemo was a person	05:53
Snafu777	Granted, I hate the NAND concept but its easy to bypass	05:53
thedead1440	DocScrutinizer05: herd mentality? They think they should drag you out of your comfort too so you suffer with them :p	05:53
DocScrutinizer05	thedead1440: sounds exaclty like that to me, yeah	05:54
Macer	lol.. but one must consider the future of maemo, which in your case is relicing it to the n900 instead of seeing a way to expand it to other hardware	05:54
DocScrutinizer05	Macer: there IS NO future of maemo	05:54
Macer	wow	05:54
Macer	lol	05:54
Macer	very well	05:54
Macer	that sums it up right there	05:54
Snafu777	Why would you? Unless u have a chipset that supports injection.... Viva 802.11	05:54
Macer	now i see your point	05:55
Snafu777	Me?	05:55
Macer	no	05:55
Macer	DocScrutinizer05	05:55
thedead1440	Snafu777: i remember SGS2 supporting injection drivers FWIW; i've played around with disconnecting some connections and intercepting data via the same WiFi network at home on my S2	05:56
Snafu777	Can u reliably inject?	05:56
Snafu777	Can u reliably do monitor mode	05:56
Macer	well then DocScrutinizer05 you will hear no more of this type of talk from me. you should have just said that in the very beginning heh	05:56
Snafu777	Can you run airbase ng	05:57
Snafu777	The n900 is very unique	05:57
DocScrutinizer05	maemo will stay the way it's now for several years on. And eventually some parts like hildon-desktop might get ported to other platforms. There's no second life for maemo though, on any new hw	05:57
Macer	like i said.. you made your point	05:58
DocScrutinizer05	there wasn't even a maemo future on meego devices	05:58
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thedead1440	Snafu777: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1282900 the S2 iirc is the only other phone that uses the same WiFi chip as the N900 hence the similar possibilities. And I'm not telling you to switch but widening your view of alternatives that do the same thing	06:02
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Snafu777	That sounds like MITM stuff	06:04
Snafu777	Not packet injection DDR	06:04
Snafu777	dude rather	06:04
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Snafu777	thedead1440??	06:06
thedead1440	the same developer has packet injection too; you have to donate though first just like the MITM stuff. I only paid for MITM as i wanted to test if it really works on a droid.	06:06
thedead1440	i tried this out like iirc 4months back; maybe you want to read up to see how reliable it is	06:07
Estel_	thedead1440, do you recall where one can grab fremantle scratchbox virtual image?	06:07
Estel_	tablet.dev seems down	06:07
thedead1440	Estel_:	06:08
thedead1440	http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo-dev-env-downloads/	06:08
thedead1440	just add skeiron.org/ to any url and its the same thing except for repos which are skeiron.org/repo/	06:09
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thedead1440	Also Estel_ mirrors wont remain frozen; they would sync with new rmo once its up on its feet. i'm sure merlin would do the same too. the sync is off as you don't want to hammer something thats still not fully up	06:10
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Estel_	thedead1440, thanks	06:12
thedead1440	np	06:12
Estel_	btw, what is the reason for syncing repos with rmo?	06:12
Estel_	all the time, I mean, when it's working reliably?	06:12
Estel_	(instead of syncing every week, for example)	06:12
Estel_	don't we trust its reliability?	06:13
thedead1440	so that they are up-to-date	06:13
thedead1440	are things really stable as of now?	06:13
Estel_	sure, that's good point, I'm just curious if it won't keep many people from switching back to new rmo	06:13
thedead1440	no once everything is 100% done ofcourse skeiron would go hidden or whatever	06:13
* Estel_ nods		06:14
Estel_	that makes sense	06:14
* Estel_ just glaned chanlog		06:14
thedead1440	skeiron wasn't supposed to last even till end of January	06:14
DocScrutinizer05	I won't wase my money for guys to bitch about it	06:14
DocScrutinizer05	waste even	06:14
Estel_	lol @ Macer, every week he is here and try to sell us some device	06:14
Estel_	mostly non-existing ones	06:14
thedead1440	its thanks to DocScrutinizer05 who said not to let it go down and keep maintaining it	06:14
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thedead1440	and of course thanks to brkn for maintaining it ;)	06:15
Estel_	last time it was android, (existing), before firefox os :P	06:15
Estel_	btw, does maemo plan to host things like those dev bits mirrored at skeiron?	06:15
thedead1440	if maemo gets all the go-aheads required from Nokia of course it'll host everything	06:16
DocScrutinizer05	we would like to, but it's pretty unclear if Nokia is willing to allow	06:16
* thedead1440 ideally wonders what happened to Macer's FOIA request...		06:17
DocScrutinizer05	after all the domain ends in nokia.com	06:17
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DocScrutinizer05	btw tabletsdev.maemo.org been the stage for tablets-dev.nokia.com	06:18
Estel_	the nokia go-ahead is what I'm worried about	06:18
Estel_	not that they would like to say "no"	06:18
Estel_	I'm worried about silence	06:18
thedead1440	Estel_: only HiFo have a proper idea of what's exactly going on with Nokia afaik; I don't think even Council know all about the discussions but i could be wrong though	06:19
DocScrutinizer05	nemein took it down due to "detected security issueas"	06:20
Estel_	hifo have idea about it? optimist :)	06:20
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DocScrutinizer05	thedead1440: no, your're not wrong	06:20
Estel_	thedead1440, thanks anyway for patiently explaining, I'm out of those formalities loop, kinda	06:20
thedead1440	Estel_: I read Council meeting logs and you are on that chan too so its just reading logs instead of being in loop :p	06:21
Estel_	question from totally different barrel... lets say that I would like to have full dev enviromnent (but for maemo only) on device - so developing for N900 on n900. I could even dedicated separate partition for big bits. Any caveats?	06:21
Estel_	I must admit that council meetings logs were not in my circle of interest since ages, with one exception, once :P	06:22
Estel_	thats why I'm out of this loop	06:22
Estel_	I'm on that channel, btw? oh right, I am.	06:22
thedead1440	lol	06:23
Estel_	proxy bouncer, so personally I forget :p	06:23
thedead1440	if you read the logs you would understand maybe half of Doc's own struggles ;) He's working on this stuff almost like 20hours a day.	06:25
Estel_	as for developing, of course I'm setting up vm on desktop, but I would like being able to do so while travelling with N900	06:25
Estel_	noticed that	06:25
Estel_	and kudos and respect for that, while spanking for other things :P	06:25
thedead1440	so give him a break instead of spoiling his remaining 4 hours :p	06:25
Estel_	:P need to spoils it, only one way to put him into sleep	06:26
thedead1440	lol	06:26
Estel_	other that singing lulababies, which is quite pervertic.	06:26
Estel_	perversive*	06:27
thedead1440	i wouldn't want to be in his shoes of being replying to $Rob while arguing here for something trivial and at the same time facing queries from $tech_staff on access etc...	06:29
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thedead1440	Estel_: is there something like the Harmattan SDK chroot for developing on the N900? Maybe that could help you out	06:30
thedead1440	Estel_: i meant something like that: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84193	06:31
DocScrutinizer05	called easydeb	06:33
thedead1440	it it this by same dev (humble): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71546	06:35
thedead1440	s/it it/is it/	06:36
infobot	thedead1440 meant: is it this by same dev (humble): http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71546	06:36
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DocScrutinizer05	SUDSER	06:50
eccerr0r	anyone happen to know how much more ram kernel-power uses? I'll highly doubt I'll use ntfs, ipv6, isofs, etc.; might have to build my own kernel if I don't want them?	06:53
DocScrutinizer05	many of those are modules	06:54
eccerr0r	that'd be good	06:54
DocScrutinizer05	ask pali	06:55
DocScrutinizer05	so far nobody ever complained about KP's RAM-usage ;-)	06:55
eccerr0r	I was a bit concerned with "booting from other media ext4, xfs, reiserfs" which implies statically compiled, but perhaps they ware in an initramfs or something and can be rmmodded	06:55
DocScrutinizer05	err, the fs probably are built in	06:56
eccerr0r	while 150K or so for xfs isn't much to 256MB,... it is a good chunk of RAM.	06:57
DocScrutinizer05	anyway KP needs to fit into NAND kernel partition	06:57
DocScrutinizer05	sure it's compressed	06:58
DocScrutinizer05	but honestly I guess there are other mem-hogs that are way worse than any KP	06:58
eccerr0r	ext4 269830 0	06:59
DocScrutinizer05	hm?	06:59
eccerr0r	well, it adds up.	06:59
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eccerr0r	that's the x86 size of ext4fs memory footprint	07:00
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug: on other half of scale you get rid of ext3 driver	07:01
DocScrutinizer05	I guess	07:01
eccerr0r	true, is possible to upgrade the ext3 to ext4	07:01
eccerr0r	I just don't think I'll use xfs. I hope nfs is a module	07:02
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eccerr0r	At least there's no ACPI interpreter :D	07:06
DocScrutinizer05	Mem: 245540k total,	07:08
DocScrutinizer05	on stock kernel	07:08
eccerr0r	that would be a good comparison right there.	07:09
eccerr0r	262144K = 256MB, even the stock kernel burns a lot of ram, so I don't think kp overall couldn't be that much worse	07:10
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eccerr0r	x86 target for fun: Mem: 250132 (with acpi interpreter)	07:11
eccerr0r	(also 256MB)	07:11
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DocScrutinizer05	~botsnack	08:39
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: aw, gee	08:39
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kerio	Macer: you actually think that ubuntu moving to Mir is a good thing? what the fuck	08:48
tx0h	hi	08:58
tx0h	the video1 cam isn't very sensitive, right?	08:59
tx0h	i mean, it's very dark. is there a way to increase sensitivity?	08:59
DocScrutinizer05	not really	09:00
tx0h	not really means?	09:00
DocScrutinizer05	means it's simply too small and sits "behind sunglasses" even	09:01
DocScrutinizer05	you can increase exposure time I guess, but that's not resulting in significantly better pictures	09:02
tx0h	would it be much better if i would drill a hole?	09:02
tx0h	the cam is normaly used as a sensor for correcting the display brightness. right?	09:05
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DocScrutinizer05	no	09:13
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tx0h	there is another sensor for this job?	09:14
DocScrutinizer05	yes	09:14
tx0h	wow	09:14
kerio	tx0h: you can actually see it, if you angle the n900 against a light	09:17
kerio	one is the proximity sensor, the other is the light sensor	09:17
kerio	all on the side of the front camera	09:17
DocScrutinizer05	the ALS is really in the corner, next to cam	09:19
DocScrutinizer05	the other apperture more direction earpiece is the prox sensor	09:20
tx0h	the n900 is still a better phone	09:20
tx0h	but why did they build such a weak front cam? for video conf it's really unuseable,isn't it?	09:23
kerio	meh	09:24
tx0h	:-)	09:25
kerio	it worksforme	09:25
kerio	but i don't know if it's nicocam that's doing some magic to the image	09:25
kerio	...i am, however, directly facing a window	09:25
tx0h	i took this line from the mirror prg: gst-launch v4l2src device=/dev/video1 ! ffmpegcolorspace ! gamma gamma=2.0 ! videoflip method=4 ! xvimagesink	09:26
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tx0h	i can't find nicocam in the repository	09:28
kerio	it's the camera app in cssu testing	09:29
tx0h	oh, i'm still with stable :-)	09:29
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n900-dk_	Damn, my n900s fully charged battery was drained during the night :(	09:35
kerio	n900-dk_: was it connected to a wifi network that stopped existing?	09:36
kerio	aka did your router reboot	09:36
n900-dk_	no,wifi always online	09:36
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n900-dk_	I just understand, why I see this issue now - it has always been able to handle a day or so on fully charged bat	09:37
n900-dk_	s/just/just dont/	09:38
infobot	n900-dk_ meant: I just dont understand, why I see this issue now - it has always been able to handle a day or so on fully charged bat	09:38
Macer	n900-dk_: i had that same issue due to swapping batteries	09:39
Macer	battery eye might help, probably just not trained correctly	09:39
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Macer	it would steadily decrease then drop 20%	09:39
Macer	in a vertical line	09:40
Macer	also, i had a similar issue with a poor widget	09:40
Macer	i believe the apnews one	09:40
Macer	which would eat the batter life up	09:40
Macer	battery	09:40
n900-dk_	but I only have conversation and calender widget	09:41
Macer	do you or have you swapped batteries?	09:41
n900-dk_	no	09:41
Macer	my untrained battery would stay at 0% for like 6 hours heh	09:42
n900-dk_	guess I will have to buy a new battery	09:42
Macer	odd... maybe try eliminating the widgets	09:42
Macer	and check battery eye	09:42
Macer	it gives you a nice little chart	09:42
n900-dk_	yeah I know - I like batterygraph better	09:42
Macer	didnt see anything awkward?	09:42
Macer	like a sudden drop towards the end?	09:43
n900-dk_	but even uninstalled that on, just to be sure it wasn't the eating one	09:43
Macer	heh	09:43
Macer	well you dont need the battery eye widget running just to get the battery history. and it really doesnt eat much to keep track	09:44
n900-dk_	no, it is just a very steep curve and fast dropping	09:44
Macer	while asleep?	09:44
Macer	odd	09:44
n900-dk_	yes, asleep and not using the phone at all	09:45
Macer	on my untrained ones i just waited for it to turn off and then charged it fully	09:45
Macer	doesnt the one youre using show which apps are eating the most?	09:45
n900-dk_	no	09:45
Macer	maybe might be able to determine it from that, otherwise it could be because your battery has reached its eol	09:46
n900-dk_	can battery eye do that?	09:46
Macer	i think so, cant remember tbh	09:46
Macer	it has been a while	09:46
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n900-dk_	will try to lower the power settings on wifi connection, to see if it has any influence	09:48
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Macer	it wont ;)	09:49
Macer	nothing you would notice	09:49
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tx0h	i recently bought 2 batteries. one last for 3+ days while the other one is off in about 24h	09:49
Macer	sleeping my n900 would last forever tho	09:49
n900-dk_	tx0h: with the same capacity?	09:51
tx0h	it's the same batteries. but i didn't meassured it	09:52
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sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk_: still having trouble? hmmm, powertop C4 times are now...?	09:53
n900-dk_	sixwheeledbeast: yeah, stupid phone :(	09:54
sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk_: well reflash would prove it's not h/w related.	09:56
n900-dk_	guess you are right	09:58
n900-dk_	C4 \| 92.3% \| 839.4ms \|	09:59
n900-dk_	seems fine	09:59
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sixwheeledbeast	n900-dk_ that good maybe get a polarcell?	10:02
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sixwheeledbeast	anyway good luck g2g to work :(	10:03
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kerio	work is good	10:05
kerio	they give you money n shit	10:05
joga	often more shit tho	10:07
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DocScrutinizer05	n900-dk_: what's with your appstarter-screen? has it enough icons so you can scroll up and down?	10:23
DocScrutinizer05	n900-dk_: there's a stupid bug in hildon desktop that still isn't fixed in stock maemo afaik: when appstarted (or other screens) don't have enough content to allow scrolling up/down, the kinetic scrolling willl constantly bounce the screen content up and down 0 pixels	10:27
DocScrutinizer05	which kills battery like nuttin	10:27
n900-dk_	so it could happend if one of my shortcut icons is on the edge?	10:27
DocScrutinizer05	and you don't see much activity in anything, since it's mostly gfx engine that runs	10:28
DocScrutinizer05	only thing with significant activity is X/hildon-desktop iirc	10:28
DocScrutinizer05	desktop shortcuts? don't think so	10:29
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n900-dk_	the I'm not sure, I understand what you mean with appstarter-screen..	10:29
DocScrutinizer05	this bug turned up first time when users installed apmefo or similar to sort their app icons into subfolders, so main appstarted screen became empty	10:29
n900-dk_	s/the/then/	10:29
infobot	n900-dk_ meant: then I'm not sure, I understand what you mean with appstarter-screen..	10:29
DocScrutinizer05	the screen where you start apps	10:30
n900-dk_	ahh :)	10:30
DocScrutinizer05	desktop -> taskswitcher -> appstarter	10:30
n900-dk_	I have 3 rows and can scrool	10:31
DocScrutinizer05	in cssu hildon desktop this bug got fixed	10:31
DocScrutinizer05	oh, then this bug doesn't apply to you	10:32
n900-dk_	I'm on ccsu-t	10:32
DocScrutinizer05	hah	10:32
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DocScrutinizer05	oh, then this bug doesn't apply to you	10:32
DocScrutinizer05	C4 \| 92.3% \| 839.4ms \| doesn't look too bad anyway	10:33
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n900-dk_	wonder if my isp updated my wifi-router to do something stupid. Will try another wifi the next night	10:34
DocScrutinizer05	next time you should post full pastebin of powertop output	10:35
DocScrutinizer05	experts here can see details in it you wouldn't notice	10:35
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n900-dk_	but it seems fine now, but the phone has also been off, since battery was drained	10:35
DocScrutinizer05	like # of IRQ on different sources	10:36
n900-dk_	I will :)	10:36
DocScrutinizer05	also forget battery-eye, what you need is cpu load applet	10:37
tx0h	my poertop looks like this: http://pastebin.ca/2329805 is this bad? i have no clue what it means	10:37
DocScrutinizer05	to have a way to tell unusual cpu load	10:37
n900-dk_	DocScrutinizer05: can you recommend a cpu load applet?	10:37
DocScrutinizer05	tx0h: yes, it's KP and thus the freq display upper right is garbled	10:38
DocScrutinizer05	way too much C0 and too little C4	10:39
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tx0h	what is C0 - C4?	10:40
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DocScrutinizer05	sleep states of CPU	10:41
vi__	tx0h: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/611	10:41
DocScrutinizer05	also way too many i2c IRQ, are you on charger?	10:41
tx0h	ty	10:42
DocScrutinizer05	and FSCK pastebin.ca which wants to set another cookie every 15s	10:43
tx0h	yes, it's un the charger	10:43
tx0h	on	10:43
DocScrutinizer05	then it's all normal	10:43
DocScrutinizer05	but also meaningless	10:44
tx0h	:-)	10:44
tx0h	ok, i will have an eye on it	10:45
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* b0unc3 good morning		11:06
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tx0h	is it a good time now to switch to cssu ?	11:37
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tx0h	or is it better to wait?	11:38
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biketool	anyone around with experience with backup-menu	11:45
tx0h	not me, sry	11:45
biketool	I tried installing KP52 and ended up bootlooped	11:45
vi__	biketool: care to elaborate?	11:47
biketool	then tried backing up from backupmenu but it froze after showing the menu, reflashed got backupmenu installed, backupmenu worked but the reinstall was a bootloop actually two different archives that I put on SD and with backupmenu onto the emmc	11:47
vi__	Are you running thumb?	11:48
biketool	this is for future fref, I reflashed and ended up spending the day returning to the n900 to get the right repos, reinstall and all the extras like cssu thumb, my webos stuff, flash 10, and 720p vid	11:49
biketool	ah, running thumb hosed me on the new kernel?	11:50
vi__	Is kp52 thumb compatible?	11:50
biketool	probably NOT	11:50
biketool	still weird that backupmenu still left me bootlooped	11:50
tx0h	what is thumb and what is kp52?	11:50
biketool	especially after flashing	11:51
biketool	kernel-power version 52, the early testing release	11:51
vi__	you flashed, installed backupmenu, then after restoring your backup there was a bootloop?	11:51
biketool	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84829	11:52
biketool	vi, yep, actually found an earlier archive, reflashed and tried that too	11:52
biketool	then gave up and did the job by hand	11:52
biketool	tx0h, the url is the announce fr thumb	11:53
biketool	thumb takes advantage of a software fixed CPU feature, saves battery and gives a small performance bump	11:54
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biketool	I dont know that I have ever actually done a real backupmenu recover, thought I might be missing something	11:56
tx0h	wow, i need it.	11:56
biketool	thumb is cool	11:56
tx0h	and kp52 is a new kernel?	11:56
biketool	yea, it will be on the repos soon probably	11:56
biketool	I tried it because I wanted to do automatic bluetooth PAN tether	11:57
tx0h	i ajust ask myseelf is this the right time to switch to cssu (testing)	11:57
DocScrutinizer05	biketool: never restore to another kernel that the one the backup been done under	11:57
biketool	Doc', so flashing to KP52 hosed my backupmenu booting?	11:58
biketool	and flashing to a backupmenu archive on cssu from stock flash is also a no-go?	11:58
DocScrutinizer05	no, restoring KP52 rootfs to a stock kernel hosed your restore	11:59
tx0h	biketool: do you think you bricked the n900?	11:59
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biketool	it is fine now	11:59
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biketool	just wasted every bit of free time for one day to do a full recover	12:00
DocScrutinizer05	when you do a backup under acme kernel, you need to restore like this: reflash, install BM, install acme kernel, only then restore	12:00
biketool	rather than 10 min to do a backupmenu repair	12:00
tx0h	this backup menu, what does it do? a dd via wireless?	12:00
biketool	Doc', ok, thanks for that	12:00
DocScrutinizer05	tx0h: no, a tar of rootfs and /home	12:01
DocScrutinizer05	to uSD	12:01
tx0h	ah, ok	12:01
DocScrutinizer05	(or eMMC, not recommended)	12:01
biketool	dd from an archive on your sd or mydocs, also does fsck, and allows you to do bulk storage USB to a PC of whole file system	12:02
biketool	super useful repair tool	12:02
biketool	yea, a tar unspooled onto the partition / and /opt	12:03
DocScrutinizer05	with that you installed incompatible kernel modules -> bootloop	12:03
DocScrutinizer05	kernel is _not_ on /	12:03
DocScrutinizer05	modules are	12:03
tx0h	shall i wait switching to cssu?	12:04
DocScrutinizer05	wait for?	12:04
tx0h	for better weather?	12:04
tx0h	i don't know. for stable repository organization	12:04
DocScrutinizer05	shrug - sunny here	12:04
DocScrutinizer05	use CSSU-S	12:04
DocScrutinizer05	should work	12:04
DocScrutinizer05	T might have 'issues'	12:05
tx0h	at this time the url's changes very often	12:05
tx0h	but i like testing	12:05
DocScrutinizer05	you can 'upgrade' to T later	12:05
tx0h	how stale is stable?	12:06
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DocScrutinizer05	but T uses a new enabler which depends on pkgs from Nokia/extras-devel and that's why it might break	12:07
DocScrutinizer05	rock solid stable	12:07
DocScrutinizer05	and not stale	12:07
tx0h	i just need to change from fremental to fremental-1.3	12:07
tx0h	i did it all the time..	12:08
DocScrutinizer05	o.O	12:08
tx0h	i mean the url in /etc/apt/sour*.d/..	12:08
DocScrutinizer05	you're not even supposed to edit that file	12:08
tx0h	it works	12:09
DocScrutinizer05	shrug	12:09
tx0h	i really hate the application manager, it's lame	12:09
DocScrutinizer05	when a symlink works better for you than the original dir	12:09
biketool	cssu has better repo reliability than nokia	12:09
biketool	cssu thumb is an upgrad from cssu	12:10
biketool	has always been stable even with someovercloc	12:10
biketool	for me	12:10
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tx0h	is there a roadmap when the new repositories get in place?	12:11
DocScrutinizer05	sure, OC never been known as particularly instable, it just reduces your CPU's lifetime to 0.01% of what it was without	12:11
biketool	I think it is mostly an issue with hash	12:12
DocScrutinizer05	tx0h: the new repository is in place	12:12
biketool	ok, gotta go, thanks	12:12
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tx0h	then cssu-t shouldn't be an issue?	12:13
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DocScrutinizer05	we can't fix expired Nokia key	12:13
tx0h	ah, nokia's fault. now i got you	12:13
tx0h	well, i will try cssu-t now	12:14
DocScrutinizer05	anyway, just install cssu-s and then switch repo from stable to testing	12:15
tx0h	i can live with repository missmatch	12:15
tx0h	hmm..	12:15
DocScrutinizer05	and do apt-get install mp-communitiy-pr or somesuch	12:15
tx0h	ok, i go with stable and upgrade	12:15
DocScrutinizer05	this will lift you to T	12:15
tx0h	but this doubles the download times	12:16
DocScrutinizer05	not really, since not many apps will get installed again under T	12:16
vi__	Does anyone know how to add keysets to the pierogi IR remote program?	12:16
vi__	I would very much like to add my car.	12:17
vi__	Or more specifically, can I spam stuff strait to /dev/IRLED?	12:17
DocScrutinizer05	huh?	12:17
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DocScrutinizer05	I#d thing it's using LIRC as backend, no?	12:18
DocScrutinizer05	everybody does	12:19
vi__	I believe he used a bunch of code from LIRC	12:19
DocScrutinizer05	sounds nasty	12:19
vi__	Not really.	12:20
vi__	It is a very well written program.	12:20
DocScrutinizer05	CBA to even ponder how a well written program comes with own kernel driver	12:20
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DocScrutinizer05	anyway irled is driven by a timer/divider aka PWM-generator	12:21
vi__	I wonder how the tv-begone widget does it.	12:22
DocScrutinizer05	the rest is most likely up to 'you', i.e. bitbang the data	12:22
vi__	Yeah.	12:22
vi__	It is written entirely in python.	12:22
DocScrutinizer05	realtime in python?? :-o	12:22
DocScrutinizer05	dafaq	12:23
DocScrutinizer05	tvbegone afaik using lirc driver	12:24
vi__	DocScrutinizer05: http://pastebin.com/9xg8R1cs	12:25
DocScrutinizer05	so what?	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	did you need me to spot this? ->	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	# ioctl: LIRC_SET_SEND_CARRIER	12:27
vi__	Ok, it does use LIRC.	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	fcntl.ioctl (self.lircdev, 0x40046913,	12:27
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DocScrutinizer05	LIRC driver is nice, since you don't need to bother about timing. You basically send the morse code to lirc	12:30
DocScrutinizer05	as data	12:30
DocScrutinizer05	plus the carrier freq	12:31
DocScrutinizer05	57kHz, 001110111011101010111011101010100000000111011101010101110111010101	12:31
DocScrutinizer05	obviously you also need to define the slot duration for one digit	12:32
DocScrutinizer05	hey! didn't even lurk, but compare this now :-D :	12:34
DocScrutinizer05	[ 37037, "301000000000001000000000100000000101111001011110124010000000000010000000001000000001011110010111101",	12:34
DocScrutinizer05	[(440, 450), (440, 1310), (440, 74620), (3460, 1760), (3460, 1780)]],	12:35
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DocScrutinizer05	simon Budig, hmmm. wonder what's been his IRC nick when he came here asking how to implement it	12:37
DocScrutinizer05	can't recall	12:37
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divVerent	19:11:30 Estel_ \| divVerent, you're doing it wrong with dosbox	13:42
divVerent	so expecting the default config to work is wrong?	13:42
divVerent	sounds rather like a package bug then ;)	13:42
divVerent	but seriously the thread has 76 pages... any search terms for the config?	13:43
divVerent	Estel_: http://wiki.maemo.org/DOSBox looks useful, but I may need more than that... as none of this fixes speed	13:45
divVerent	the keyboard fix however is indeed what I need	13:45
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divVerent	Estel_: also, TIM was somewhat ok performance wise in-game, but the intro at the start was jerky...+	14:00
divVerent	but, mouse clicks were not registered at the right position but about 2 blocks below, which is annoying	14:00
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vi__	DocScrutinizer05: can you explain this@	14:05
vi__	:	14:05
vi__	10:34:14 - DocScrutinizer05: hey! didn't even lurk, but compare this now :-D :	14:05
vi__	10:34:16 - DocScrutinizer05: [ 37037, "301000000000001000000000100000000101111001011110124010000000000010000000001000000001011110010111101",	14:05
vi__	10:35:20 - DocScrutinizer05: [(440, 450), (440, 1310), (440, 74620), (3460, 1760), (3460, 1780)]],	14:05
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divVerent	The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:	14:28
divVerent	epubreader dorian	14:28
divVerent	The following packages will be REMOVED:	14:28
divVerent	dorian epubreader	14:28
divVerent	Great way about sorting things is...	14:28
divVerent	that you have so many criteria to do it by!	14:28
divVerent	(now that I slimmed down my system properly using deborphan, I exported the deborphan data to apt and now use autoremove instead)	14:29
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Estel_	tvbgone may be using lirc driver, but not lirc package as a whole (dropping dependencies to read IR signals, useless on N900)	15:33
Estel_	vi__, ping	15:33
Estel_	no user way to add keysets to pierogi yet - if you have data, send it to Copernicus	15:34
Estel_	he will gladly include	15:34
Estel_	or incorporate it into source code and send him patch, event cherrier ;)	15:34
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Estel_	vi__, btw, once, you've highlighted a good place to bundle xbindkeys automatic startup as user into. While I've found (thanks to help here) other places for it, out of curiosity, could you remind me what it was?	15:35
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Estel_	can't remember for a life of mine	15:36
Estel_	BTW, as someone was wrong (tm) here: kp52 does support thumb	15:36
Estel_	so switching from cssu-thumb kernel into kp52 shouldn't result in bootloop.	15:37
Estel_	not to mention that thumb errors doen't result in bootloop at all, instead, it makes thing crash every few seconds	15:37
Estel_	programs, desktop, whatever. But it boots.	15:37
Estel_	divVerent, as for dosbox, I'm on 900 mhz max, and here cpu speed matteres much(all)	15:39
Estel_	as for config, let me check...	15:39
divVerent	Estel_: I saw one post by you, but the only performance critical things were:	15:40
divVerent	3 frameskips (hate that)	15:40
divVerent	auto cycles (is default in the current package)	15:40
divVerent	auto core, suggesting dynamic too (auto is default)	15:40
Estel_	divVerent, it is not noticeable in real life on N900 (3 frameskip). or set it to 2, if you don't like 3	15:40
divVerent	I set it to 1 for now	15:40
divVerent	that is even ok on a PC for me	15:40
Estel_	1-2 are not noticeable for 100%, and give huge performance boost	15:41
divVerent	right	15:41
divVerent	on PC, 2 already annoys me in Stunts	15:41
Estel_	lemme check config for other things of interest	15:41
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divVerent	another somewhat unrelated issue: is there a trick to get sound out of scummvm?	15:41
divVerent	I just can't get music to work in monkey island 1	15:41
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divVerent	it might be bad files, though	15:42
divVerent	so I will verify with the version of MI1 I actually own that I have at home, and not the one I dl'd from the net :P	15:42
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Estel_	divVerent, beneath a steel sky works with sound in scumm here	15:46
Estel_	http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?fa7e2787034583f0#ED4L413vfxIaGflqnj0Wbeoo55omyqYgG5oNYoifuG0=	15:46
Estel_	for refference	15:46
Estel_	of course screen things are of interest...	15:46
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Estel_	+ Imve disabled emulation of everything that doesnt need to be emulated, like di,sney or joysticks	15:47
Estel_	saves some cycles	15:47
Estel_	of course [sdl] section is most important, check for differencies with your config and experiment	15:47
divVerent	also, scummvm is somewhat stupid to use :(	15:48
divVerent	like, shift-ctrl-m is hard to press	15:48
divVerent	and ctrl-volumekey is just stupid to enable tapping... maybe a job for an xmodmap wrapper	15:48
divVerent	luckily, most SCUMM games don't use many keys ;)	15:48
Estel_	divVerent, hm, I don't remember such strange keyset for scumm, maybe I've changed smth ;P)	15:48
divVerent	oh, it can be changed? even better	15:49
divVerent	most letter keys in monkey island are purely optional	15:49
divVerent	they enable actions, but you also can just click them in the actions bar	15:49
divVerent	actually... aren't ALL purely optional? :P	15:49
divVerent	esc is the only really required key... and the very one not accessible at all :(	15:49
divVerent	to skip long talks or intro	15:49
Estel_	maybe... I don't remember, about changing, haven't used scum for a looong time	15:50
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divVerent	I'll see if that can be changed	15:50
Estel_	and i have esc for sure	15:50
Estel_	have/had	15:50
divVerent	where did you map it BTW?	15:50
Estel_	either somewhere in scum config, or maybe it respects maemo hardware keyboard remap, where i defined 99% of keys from full sized keyboard?	15:50
Estel_	(using 3th and 4th layer, like shift + blue arrow + key, which is easy to press with two fingers)	15:51
Estel_	as for dosbox, for some games it also help to change emulated machine	15:51
Estel_	from svga_e3 etc	15:51
Estel_	but this is per-game thing	15:51
Estel_	lemme check scum	15:51
Estel_	well, for sure I need only volume key to disable clicking... without ctrl	15:55
vi__	Estel_: /etc/X11/xsession.post/90YOURSCRIPTHERE	15:55
Estel_	and i got same effect by holding shift, but scum doesnt know that	15:55
Estel_	vi__, thanks	15:55
vi__	Estel_: I have the sequence and the modulation freq for my car.	15:56
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vi__	I want to open my car with my n900.	15:56
vi__	Does pierogi have a command line interface?	15:56
Estel_	vi__, so Copernicus will gladly add it, but you're sure it's opened by infra-red?	15:56
Estel_	nope	15:56
Estel_	openin car via infra-red sounds... silly.	15:56
vi__	ie pierogi --device TV --make SAMSUNG --keyset 1A --command OFF	15:57
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Estel_	vi__, I'm not aware of any command line for pierogi :(	15:57
vi__	Well my car has IR central locking, all I have to do is send it a sequence to lock/unlock.	15:57
SpeedEvil	you know it may be a rolling code?	15:59
Estel_	strange, every moron could easily record your ir sequence and repeat it	15:59
vi__	It is not.	15:59
Estel_	lol	15:59
SpeedEvil	not simply the same code repeated.	15:59
SpeedEvil	is your car 20 years old?	15:59
vi__	Welcome to citreon, 1994.	15:59
Estel_	well, if it's same code repeated, then your car is as hard to open as Any TV	15:59
SpeedEvil	ash	15:59
Estel_	oh, well.	16:00
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vi__	Not really.	16:00
SpeedEvil	really	16:00
vi__	You would have to observe the code from my key.	16:00
Estel_	odds are, that learning remote for tv would be able to open it too	16:00
Estel_	no problem.	16:00
Estel_	even from distance (reflections)	16:00
vi__	Estel_: That is correct.	16:00
Estel_	anyway, Copernicus will be glad to include first car into pierogi keyset	16:01
Estel_	if you're happy, that every pierogi user will be able to open your car	16:01
vi__	The thing is the code from the TX is unique. You have to lock the car to it.	16:01
Estel_	so either you do own fork of pierogi with patch adding your code	16:02
vi__	Meh. I do not even need it. I have a key anyway.	16:02
Estel_	or you install all lirc bundle daemon etc	16:02
Estel_	and use other way	16:02
Estel_	coolness factor by opening car via N900, eh? :P	16:02
vi__	if only there was a nice command line tool that would work from a sh script.	16:03
Estel_	divVerent, scummvm respect hardware remap	16:03
Estel_	so in my case, for example, blue arrow + tap = right click	16:03
Estel_	(same as using right volume key, but the latter is defined in scum configj	16:03
divVerent	hardware remap?	16:03
vi__	IRSEND --modulation 37k -code 25 44 32 16 7	16:03
Estel_	divVerent, see wiki article remapping hardware keyboard	16:03
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divVerent	ah, I see	16:04
divVerent	BTW, good idea, this remap	16:04
Estel_	vi__, can't it be done with lirc driver alone?	16:04
vi__	maybe.	16:04
divVerent	one of the things I wanted to do anyway, to enable german umlaut keys	16:04
Estel_	divVerent, it's usefull for many things, like easy debian, or programs from desktop ported to Maemo (without cutting functions)	16:04
vi__	~ vikbd	16:04
vi__	~vikbd	16:04
Estel_	heck, IIRC even microB answer to right mouse press, sometimes	16:04
vi__	~vi_kbd	16:04
Estel_	in some cases*	16:04
vi__	~vikb	16:05
divVerent	damn, wiki JUST doesn't respond :(	16:05
vi__	ffs	16:05
Estel_	~ping	16:05
divVerent	ah, works now	16:05
infobot	~pong	16:05
vi__	fuckit I am going home.	16:05
Estel_	bb :)	16:05
Estel_	infobot, now what?	16:05
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, now what is 2*4?	16:05
Estel_	sure	16:05
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Estel_	~therapion	16:06
Estel_	what is now what?	16:08
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Estel_	infobot, what is now what?	16:09
infobot	now what is probably 2*4?	16:09
divVerent	wtf, why does this even work?	16:10
divVerent	key <UP> { type[Group1] = "PC_FN_LEVEL2", symbols[Group1] = [ Up, udiaeresis ] };	16:10
divVerent	I nmean	16:10
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divVerent	how does it know that shift-fn-up outputs upper case Ü?	16:10
divVerent	it works, just want to know where X.org does this magic	16:10
divVerent	Estel_: how do you make fn-tap do right mouse button?	16:17
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divVerent	installing x11-utils now so I can play with xev	16:17
divVerent	haha, xev actually gets no keyboard events ever... weird	16:18
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Estel_	as for right click	16:22
Estel_	xbindkeys and xdotool	16:22
Estel_	(for maemo)	16:22
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Estel_	divVerent:	16:24
Estel_	need to put that into xbindkeys config:	16:24
Estel_	http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?116a1fafa7fa2896#w3CqGLHfFZdoUI1zsVO6h8u7DgdXIN6NdaoS4B8HMvo=	16:24
divVerent	ah, I see	16:24
Estel_	assume xdotool is present on the system, too	16:25
divVerent	bit cleaner than abusing xkbset	16:25
Estel_	I used to bind F1-F12 to upper row keys by xbindkeys, too, but switched to doing so in hardware remap way	16:26
Estel_	aka rx-51 file	16:26
Estel_	as it works for more things than xbindkeys used too	16:26
Estel_	(yes, I have F1-F12 mapped too, as said 99% of full sized keyboard :P )	16:27
Estel_	including chars like \|><%$^~[]}{	16:27
Estel_	very convenient	16:27
Estel_	(I'm writing it from N900 even now :P)	16:27
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divVerent	Estel_: upper row? you mean on crappy keybinds like Fn+Ctrl+Q = F1? ;)	16:30
Estel_	no, why	16:33
Estel_	blue arrow + shift (which is easily covered by one finger) + q	16:33
Estel_	= F1	16:33
Estel_	fn + ctrl is more complicated as it is Sym table	16:34
Estel_	;)	16:34
Estel_	from practice, btw, shift and blue arrow is very conveinent	16:34
Estel_	btw shift + blue arrow is somethng different than blue arrow + shift	16:34
Estel_	;)	16:34
Estel_	normally it doesn't matter, but could be abused to bind even more	16:35
Estel_	it's just that I already managed to have full keyboard binded to N900 keyboard, so no need to complicate things	16:35
Estel_	xes, ping	16:35
divVerent	hm... would like to see your keybind file then :) maybe even on the wiki	16:37
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Estel_	divVerent, why not, but it's also filled with polish characters, so would require clean-up :)	16:44
Estel_	I use unusual approach to local things, though. Instead of binding special letters a whole, I bind dead_ components	16:45
Estel_	like dead_ogonek	16:45
Estel_	or dead_dot	16:45
Estel_	˙	16:45
Estel_	or dead_accute. So, I have it binded to shift + blue arrow to some key...	16:46
Estel_	then, I use it to mix with any letter I want	16:46
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divVerent	Estel_: that's actually a nice idea...	16:46
Estel_	this way, using only one key for ´ I have possibility to invoke all leter mixed with ´, for example ć ó ń ź etc	16:47
divVerent	currently I put ÄÖÜß on arrows... but as I will soon move to Switzerland...	16:47
divVerent	it may be better to put dead diaresis, acute, grave on three of them	16:47
divVerent	and keep ß when writing to Germans ;)	16:47
Estel_	and, after some practice, it's very natural way of writing, no slower than using accented letter directly	16:47
divVerent	I remember this way of writing from the TI-92 ;)	16:47
Estel_	hehe	16:47
Estel_	there is only one irritating thing, no working dead slash :(	16:48
Estel_	so ł have to be letter	16:48
Estel_	due to bug in x-something	16:48
divVerent	compose key?	16:48
Estel_	won't work, tried	16:48
divVerent	oh, ok	16:48
Estel_	so doing a capitalised ł is PITA	16:48
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Estel_	dead slash or how it's called should work, but it just doesnt	16:49
Estel_	same apply, probably, to slashed o in nordic	16:49
Estel_	or is it dead_strike	16:49
Estel_	anyway, it just don't work with that single dead only :(	16:49
Estel_	to capitalise ł I need to enable caps lock then invoke it with blue arrow only...	16:51
Estel_	which is only one problematic key	16:52
divVerent	damn, ccedilla is not possible to enter via `c or the like	16:52
divVerent	I might need that TOO...	16:52
Estel_	are you sure youmre using dead?	16:52
Estel_	hm	16:52
divVerent	thing is, I can only map 3 of the arrow keys	16:52
divVerent	left is grave, middle is diaeresis, right is acute	16:52
divVerent	up I need for ß	16:52
Estel_	need to use shift + blue arrow + c	16:52
divVerent	they currently do the same for me as unshifted :P	16:53
Estel_	btw I'm not sure if mapping things to arrow is good idea	16:53
Estel_	won't you lose capability to highlight text by shift + arrow?	16:53
divVerent	haha, seems easy to fix	16:53
Estel_	hm?	16:54
divVerent	yes, which is why I only remap fn-arrow	16:54
divVerent	key <AC01> { [ a, A, asterisk, asterisk ] };	16:54
divVerent	note that quite explicitly fn-a and shift-fn-a are equal	16:54
divVerent	so I can map these two differently	16:54
divVerent	great, means lots of easy space for symbols :P	16:54
Estel_	that's what I toldya	16:54
divVerent	yes, I just don't get the ordering of these, what these levels mean	16:55
divVerent	editing existing definitions is easy though	16:55
Estel_	blue arrow = fn (well, in fact it's not fn but AltGr, but no one know it, so I call it blue arrow to avoid confusion)	16:55
Estel_	first thing is keystroke	16:55
Estel_	another keystroke + shift	16:55
divVerent	ok, need to take out the TI-92 to see how it mapped the dead keys... so I can use my old "finger mapping" ;)	16:55
divVerent	ah, diaeresis was on U	16:56
Estel_	later is blue arrow + keystroke and later shift + blue arrow + keystroke	16:56
divVerent	the logic behind these was apparently, 2nd+key is the dead key most commonly used with that key	16:56
divVerent	so 2nd-u yielded the diaeresis because ü is common :P	16:56
Estel_	no idea how to achieve shift + blue arrow + keystroke, without altering what happens with shift + keystroke	16:56
Estel_	(so arrows would still allow to higlight text by shift and arrowing)	16:56
divVerent	and yes, I will probbaly undo the arrow change and rather go the TI-92-like route... mainly because I once was used to it	16:57
Estel_	hey, I replicated this logic	16:57
divVerent	so I probably will easily get used to it again	16:57
Estel_	without using TI-92 ever :P	16:57
divVerent	also put the dead keys similarily?	16:57
divVerent	on the same key as the letter you often use it with?	16:57
Estel_	I also mapped dead key to most commonly used key with that dead	16:57
divVerent	i.e. most of them on vowel keys, especially	16:57
divVerent	ah, TI used:	16:58
divVerent	2nd-A is grave	16:58
Estel_	yea, at the same key where it is most used	16:58
divVerent	2nd-C is dead cedille	16:58
divVerent	2nd-E is acute	16:58
divVerent	2nd-N is tilde	16:58
divVerent	2nd-O is caret	16:58
divVerent	2nd-U is umlaut	16:58
Estel_	just that I made it for polish especially	16:58
divVerent	that should cover ALL the languages spoken in Switzerland ;)	16:58
Estel_	:)	16:58
Estel_	thank goodness I need to have only polish and english	16:59
divVerent	in .ch, I'd mainly need the others for place names	16:59
Estel_	understandable	16:59
divVerent	also, I am German, but Swiss-German handles French-origin words differently	16:59
divVerent	they actually spell them in original French	16:59
Estel_	but complicated, still ;)	16:59
divVerent	i.e. with all accents retained	16:59
divVerent	while "regular" German strips the accents	16:59
Estel_	I'm all for multi-cultural, but it makes keyboard mapping a mess	17:00
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Estel_	...which reminds me that I should already start making "traditional" polish dinner of Spaghetti, for hungry family	17:01
Estel_	see ya later!	17:01
divVerent	cu	17:04
divVerent	while at it, adding mapping for <> \| :P	17:04
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divVerent	argh... SOUNDED easy... but I just put <> where [] would have belonged ;)	17:12
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divVerent	Estel_: getting a funny bug, can you check if your mapping has the issue too?	17:19
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divVerent	shift+fn+J and shift+fn+K always output BOTH assigned keybinds	17:20
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divVerent	aloso visible in the default binds, where these two both enter )&	17:20
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divVerent	http://pastebin.com/ARf4QHru - my current binds now BTW	17:27
divVerent	NoSymbol on Shift+Fn+K to avoid the bug	17:28
divVerent	BTW, a second plausible mapping would be dead grave on b, dead acute on v, dead diaeresis on n	17:28
divVerent	then they match the blue symbols	17:28
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kerio	divVerent: it's a problem of the keyboard	17:34
kerio	shift+fn+z and shift+fn+x are the same thing	17:34
kerio	same as... shift+fn+k and shift+fn+l i think?	17:34
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divVerent	funny problem :P	17:41
divVerent	indeed, z+x exhibit it too	17:41
divVerent	kl do not, but jk do	17:42
divVerent	and yes, I was assuming it must be a HW problem	17:42
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divVerent	ok, here I have another question... how would one "harden" Maemo so a web browser exploit cannot get root rights	18:22
divVerent	one obvious thing I did: I removed the NOPASSWD: from the gainroot entry in sudoers, and set a user password	18:23
divVerent	but I noticed quite a lot of sudoers entries that suffice to gain root	18:23
divVerent	e.g. /usr/sbin/osso-prepare-partition.sh can be run with any args via sudo, and passing "/path/to/destination if=/path/to/source" can copy any file up to 512 bytes size as root	18:24
divVerent	which suffices to become root by rewriting /etc/shadow and /etc/passwd ;)	18:24
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divVerent	and yes, i know this threat is VERY unlikely... DesktopLinux/ARM is not targeted much, unlike e.g. Android/ARM	18:24
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divVerent	basically: where should I address bugs in sudoers-run programs?	18:25
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divVerent	also, I know quite well that hardening the system in such a way would require getting rid of hildon-application-manager, which is actually DESIGNED to enable installation of software without root permissions ;)	18:26
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divVerent	so basically, where are security bugs in Maemo "core" packages to be reported to?	18:27
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merlin1991	divVerent: cssu if anywhere	18:56
divVerent	and is there a policy to keep such things secret, or is it ok to freely publish them on the bug tracker (usually I'd attach a fixing patch)?	18:58
divVerent	probably the latter, given that most users quite intentionally allow "sudo gainroot" without any questions asked ;)	18:59
divVerent	(which is also why I'd never report this as "bug" for the rootsh package - if it's what the user wants, then it's right and not a bug)	19:00
merlin1991	we actually never had a policy for security bugs	19:02
merlin1991	we as in the cssu team, nokia obviously had some	19:02
divVerent	but Nokia is totally out by now, I think	19:02
divVerent	or not?	19:02
merlin1991	yes it is	19:02
divVerent	and the N900 is by default designed to be rootable... so what I want to find out, is a) how to close down the intentional holes, and b) how to fix the unintentional ones :P	19:03
divVerent	the most obvious intentional one is that one can enter custom repositories into hildon-application-manager. I suppose making the catalogues XML file immutable via chattr would "fix" this one ;)	19:04
divVerent	of course, it's the very feature because of which I have a N900	19:04
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divVerent	so my end goal would be fixing ALL the holes, but allowing root login via sudo with password (or ssh with a key for root)	19:05
FIQ	the issue with HAM is that it allows installation of stuff (which can give root easily) without authencation	19:06
divVerent	that issue also exists, but IIRC can be fixed on APT level	19:06
divVerent	by making signatures mandatory	19:06
FIQ	personally I don't care, I don't see any reason for people to steal my phone and do stuff	19:06
divVerent	so one of my suggestions for hardening would be getting rid of HAM entirely, and using apt-get via a controlled root shell	19:06
deepy	sudo ham	19:06
divVerent	yes, or removing its sudo rights ;)	19:07
FIQ	and if they do, they wont find anything interesting (besides the raw value of N900 obviously)	19:07
divVerent	and running it as root then	19:07
merlin1991	using ham assumes you're the device user	19:07
divVerent	exactly	19:07
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merlin1991	so it is not "unsafe"	19:07
divVerent	the thing is, a web browser exploit (for example) can use the very same sudo commands HAM uses to spawn and talk to apt-worker	19:07
merlin1991	unless you hand your phone to random strangers unlocked	19:07
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divVerent	thus install stuff	19:07
FIQ	merlin1991: that's my point :p	19:07
divVerent	I am mainly worried about impact of browser exploits	19:07
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divVerent	that the GUI assumes you are the owner is ok	19:07
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divVerent	so one other step would also be attemptting to sandbox the browser	19:08
divVerent	probably futile, as we WANT the browser to be able to spawn e.g. the word processor	19:08
divVerent	and running as different user IDs would be problematic	19:09
divVerent	also, whatever I do, an exploit can always read the MMC or VFAT partition	19:09
divVerent	i.e. get ALL the photos ;)	19:09
divVerent	issue shared with Android, BTW	19:10
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r00t^home	divVerent: you can fix most of that by installing android on your n900 ;)	19:14
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kerio	divVerent: there's no /etc/shadow	19:24
kerio	so if you have passwordful sudo, your security is worth shit	19:25
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thomasjfox_	hey there. Any news about the maemo build system? I didn't follow the discussions lately and thought about doing a new rockbox release soon	20:19
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sixwheeledbeast	thomasjfox_ it's getting there, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89273	20:38
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sixwheeledbeast	mmm, got a screw in the display module that will not come out, grr.	20:39
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thomasjfox_	sixwheeledbeast: yey! thanks.	20:40
thomasjfox_	I'll try the build system on the mentioned IP soonish ;)	20:41
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thomasjfox_	and I need to fork over some $$$ to keep this effort running. the n900 is still the best phone for me (proper keyboard)	20:42
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sixwheeledbeast	anybody got any ideas on removing a rounded ph00 screw from a display module?	20:46
ShadowJK	1mm reverse drill bit	20:47
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sixwheeledbeast	ShadowJK: you tested that?	20:47
ShadowJK	no	20:47
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ShadowJK	not with that particular screw	20:48
ShadowJK	or on a N900 at all	20:48
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ShadowJK	But in many cases when you start drilling into a screw with a reverse drill (one that spins counter clockwise when drilling down), the screw will start turning	20:49
ShadowJK	If it doesn't, you glue a rod into the hole you just made, wait for it to set	20:49
sixwheeledbeast	five of hem are out and this last one came out a little then got really tight and snapped the screwdriver bit.	20:49
sixwheeledbeast	I am trying to glue the broken screwdriver bit to the screw atm	20:50
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xes	M4rtinK: ping	22:04
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M4rtinK	xes: pong :)	22:08
M4rtinK	xes: got your email ! :)	22:08
M4rtinK	xes: thanks ! :)	22:08
xes	M4rtinK: have you seen something interesting? Most of this is just a quick hack, but it could be interesting if integrated in a proper way	22:10
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M4rtinK	xes: yep, my plan is to use this as a base for an import feature	22:11
M4rtinK	something like --import-gns /path/to.db	22:11
M4rtinK	and eventually also interactive import triggered from the GUI (file open dialog, etc.)	22:12
M4rtinK	will also try to improve POI handling when I'm at it :)	22:13
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M4rtinK	not sure about the timeframe but lets say "soon" :)	22:13
xes	great! The funcion to calculate the distance should be a little optimized, i had to cut a few steps to reduce the time of execution of the script but attached there is also the original readable funcion in the other script	22:15
xes	btw, just an idea to help the offline users! ;)	22:16
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xes	M4rtinK: as you can see, gns files have a fixed link for the download (http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm)so i think you could point to them directly in the import wizard	22:25
M4rtinK	xes: good point - that would also be a nice feature :)	22:28
M4rtinK	xes: BTW, do they update them regularly ?	22:29
M4rtinK	regarding distance calculation	22:29
M4rtinK	modRana has some quite optimized distance calculation functions	22:29
M4rtinK	(rewritten from Marble :))	22:30
xes	for sure faster than my bash function! Gns update that files about every 1 or 2 months	22:31
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xes	..while italian users would be very happy of the "poi gps" import feature	22:33
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M4rtinK	xes: poi gps ?	22:48
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