IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2013-02-24

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WizardNumberNextLets say I need few alarms an hour. Is alarmclient good choice to set them? Where can I find easy to comprehend documetation, possibly with many examples00:54
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DocScrutinizer05WTF is wrong with tmo?03:50
DocScrutinizer05well, rather slooooow03:51
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DocScrutinizer05hmm, maybe they snapshotted the VM03:52
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infobotit has been said that xyawn is nice coffee04:06
infobot[xyawn] coffee04:06
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DocScrutinizer05WizardNumberNext: have a look into alarmed app09:24
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DocScrutinizer05you either want to use alarmed GUI, or alarmed CLI, or alarmed sourcecode for an example how to use alarmd(aemon)09:25
DocScrutinizer05alarmclient feels kinda like PITA09:26
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Estel_M4rtinK,  thanks :) Bts, out of curiosity, what those "foot", "train", "bus", etc modes are supposed to do?11:45
Estel_I though that bus will use public communication data for routing, but, apparently it doesn't11:45
Estel_now I see that *some*of them change layout11:45
Estel_i.e. train displays lattitude and loingtittude (?!) on main screen, and bicycle displays distance bike'd, + max speed and avrage speed11:46
Estel_train display current time11:46
Estel_it would be *really* nice, if one could configure what is displayed manually, per mode11:47
Estel_for example I need time much more when "on foot" than when in car (cars usually have own time display)11:47
Estel_just a suggestion, again :)11:47
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M4rtinKEstel_: it basically works like you describe it :)11:48
M4rtinKyou can change what is displayed in user_config.conf11:49
M4rtinKin the modrana profile11:49
M4rtinKbut the info widgets are rather basic11:49
M4rtinKother than that, you can bind option values to modes in Options11:49
M4rtinKsou you can have like different layer in foot mode than in car mode11:50
M4rtinKand it actually also changes if you get car, walking or bike directions, if available11:50
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M4rtinKno public transport routing yet, though I have found out recently that the Google API can do it now11:51
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Estel_M4rtinK,  thanks, forge about per mode options11:55
Estel_and nice to know that one can change "widgets" from user_config11:55
Estel_any particular reason why no gui options for that, or just lack of time to write it just yet? :P11:55
M4rtinKexactly that :)11:55
M4rtinKIMHO it should really be user configurable11:56
M4rtinKor more like interactively configurable11:56
M4rtinKbut haven't got to that11:56
M4rtinKfor like 2 years already :)11:56
M4rtinKalways something more pressing :)11:57
M4rtinKI'm thinking about making it a two part object11:57
M4rtinKwith one part providing the data11:58
Estel_No surprise here, it's really awesome program, looking like it's written by dedicated team, not single person - kudos for what is already available11:58
M4rtinKand another part handling the drawing of the widget on the different GUI & remembering where it is and how big it should be etc.11:59
M4rtinKthank ! :)11:59
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Estel_BTW I also think that off-line routing is more pressing :P11:59
Estel_hm, sounds reasonable (two part object)11:59
M4rtinKwell, that should work since summer :)11:59
Estel_ops, I've lost something :P11:59
Estel_monav off-line routing?11:59
M4rtinKalthough when I tried it yesterday it seemed broken12:00
Estel_using own generator, local generation, or marble one?12:00
Estel_so I haven't missed it, it's broken here too :P12:00
M4rtinKyou need to do some manual steps first12:00
M4rtinKI would like to make it automatic though12:01
M4rtinKand thanks to Wikiwides patches, you can also just input the route, even with notification messages12:03
M4rtinKBTW, anybody else on DevConf in Brno ?12:04
M4rtinKalready met a N810 guy yesterday and many N9 users :)12:05
Estel_sounds nice12:07
Estel_BTW, I remember you were talking about modrana repository with monav data, and about time of generating it on sope supercomputer12:07
Estel_is it available already?12:07
Estel_or is preffered source, still?12:08
M4rtinKoh, it is missing from the guide12:08
M4rtinKthe data is from october though12:09
M4rtinKI actually have a fresh set prepared that I'll publish probably on Monday12:09
* Estel_ nods12:09
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M4rtinKyou can update the guide if you want to :)12:10
M4rtinKand I'm heading back to the conference :)12:10
* Estel_ nods12:11
Estel_will try it wiki won't fail to load on my 2G in-train connection :P12:11
M4rtinKgood luck & thanks ! :)12:11
M4rtinKsee you :)12:11
Estel_seems, that irc is only thing that likes to work in 6 kb/s (in practice) connection12:11
Estel_have fun on conf12:11
M4rtinKok :)12:12
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cityLightscan I use the gps from my laptop?12:59
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jacekowskiyou want to use N900 GPS from your laptop?13:00
jacekowskior the other way?13:00
jacekowskithere is an app called columbus13:00
cityLightsdoes n9 has such a program?13:01
DocScrutinizer05meh, infobot on holiday13:03
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ccxCZdoes rescueos or bootmenu support charging?13:06
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infobotDocScrutinizer: infobot joined!13:06
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DocScrutinizer05bootmenu does13:06
DocScrutinizer05err backupmenu does13:07
DocScrutinizer05dunno about rescueos13:08
infobot123/123 channels, 4939 users, 3565 unique: #debian/1269, #kde/403, #maemo/259, #asterisk/215, #gsoc/211, #oe/147, #wowuidev/142, #meego/138, #harmattan/137, #arm-netbook/130, #cubieboard/112, #wowace/112, #wowhead/91, #webos-internals/83, #utah/77, #openmoko/76, #openmoko-cdevel/68, #tomcat/67, #bzflag/65, #uclibc/56, #edev/54, #n9/49, #maemo-ssu/49, #htc-linux/48, #curseforge/48, #sc2mapster/43, #asterisk-dev/42, #/35, #slug/35, #elinux/34, ...13:08
ccxCZone suffices :-)13:08
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keriorescueos has charge21.bash13:11
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bennypr0faneplease help, my Maemo conversations app is broken! All conversations disappeared. everything else seems normal. Please help me investigate this15:17
thedead1440bennypr0fane: have you tried a reboot? Mine have disappeared a few times but a reboot or two usually means they come back...15:18
bennypr0faneLast I received an sms, with a preview visible in the task manager, but that may have been an sms that I already got yesterday. tapping it got me to the empty conversations home screen...15:19
bennypr0fanethedead1440 yes hav rebooted twice15:20
bennypr0fanenothing :-(15:20
bennypr0fanealso changed the battery15:20
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NIN101usually they shouldn't just disappear. Recently, did you install something?16:14
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bennypr0faneNIN101 Xbmcremote was what I installed last, and CutetubeQML16:46
kerioDocScrutinizer05: tl;dr16:47
DocScrutinizer05kerio: then don't complain later on16:48
DocScrutinizer05if you want the bottom line: HiFo (Rob) going nuts again16:48
DocScrutinizer05to a point where he rather kills maemo than considering the true meaning of the term "hosting contract"16:49
kerioah, yes16:49
keriomeh, i just hope the iphh guys won't get too fed up with that shite16:49
DocScrutinizer05a hosting contract would include maintenance16:49
DocScrutinizer05a CoLo *contract* would include guaranteed bandwidth and whatnot else16:51
WizardNumberNextDocScrutinizer05: it seams alarmed doesn't work for me. It doesn't do anything and seams to hung as soon as I would touch it. I admit I had problem to install it, because of hashsum, but after renaming files and moving them to appropariate location, I was able to install it, along with dependencies.16:51
kerio>renaming and moving16:51
DocScrutinizer05IPHH asks for NOTHING, ZARRO, still HiFo wants them to offer a *contract* to them16:51
keriothat's not how dpkg works16:51
kerio"we host your server for free in exchange for one cup of shut the fuck up from board. signed, iphh"16:52
WizardNumberNextkerio: it simply named files with some additional extension and dropped them in partial, but debs were completely downloaded16:52
kerioWizardNumberNext: fair enough16:53
WizardNumberNextso I moved them to /var/cache/apt/archives and removed stupid extension from names16:53
keriothe debs should be fine, yes16:53
DocScrutinizer05well, the debs don't check for dependencies16:54
WizardNumberNextI am not sure, if it installed it properly, as alarmed doesn't work16:54
DocScrutinizer05or rather, don't resolve them16:54
kerioWizardNumberNext: did you install them with dpkg -i or did you actually use apt-get in the end?16:54
kerioanyway, just as a security measure, run "apt-get install -f"16:55
WizardNumberNextapt-get does check and I downloaded all debs with apt-get, but it refused to install, because of hashes, so I moved, renamed and installed it with dpkg16:55
kerioit should do nothing, if everything is supposed to be working16:55
DocScrutinizer05apt-get complained about hashsums???16:55
NIN101bennypr0fane: hmm, dunno.16:55
WizardNumberNextappears clean16:56
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it would be weird otherwise, nobody did anything to fix the hashsum problem yet, so i'd expect it to still be there16:56
kerioWizardNumberNext: btw, have you rebooted?16:56
WizardNumberNextI think few times already16:56
kerioi've never used alarmed, so idk how to help you diagnose it16:56
keriowhat does `alarmclient -L` list?16:57
WizardNumberNextbut reboot doesn't affect apt and dpkg, after it finished, at least on debian16:57
WizardNumberNextalarms, ham updates and modest16:57
WizardNumberNextstandard I presume16:57
kerioso nothing from alarmed?16:58
WizardNumberNexton contrary alarmed doesn't list anything16:58
WizardNumberNextand doesn't work - hungs every single time16:58
WizardNumberNextin worst case I can reverse installation, as commands are in history16:59
kerioare you sure that `alarmed` isn't the daemon?17:00
WizardNumberNextI have some giu17:00
WizardNumberNextlet me see what ps would say17:01
WizardNumberNextalarmed doesn't run at the moment17:01
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DocScrutinizer05I really don't get laws in USA, neither the lawyers there. In the sane world, a contract gets handed out by somebody to a second party to sign it and thus promise they will pay (or fulfill other obligation), usually to obtain some service or goods offered by first party17:02
DocScrutinizer05for Rob this always sounds like top down17:02
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DocScrutinizer05Jolla offered cooperation, Rob asks them to sign a NDA17:03
DocScrutinizer05IPHH offers free CoLo, Rob demands a hosting contract to be sent to him17:03
DocScrutinizer05something is odd with either Rob or US laws17:04
bennypr0fane<DocScrutinizer05 one lawyer friend once told me that in US criminal jurisdiction, there aren't actually such things as laws, but just previous decisions made by judges in similar cases17:04
thedead1440I would say something is wrong with Rob ;)17:04
kerioi'd post a summary on TMO, maybe in that same thread17:04
kerioso there's something to link17:05
jacekowskibennypr0fane: it's called common law17:05
jacekowskibennypr0fane: and there is something like that in the UK and other countries as well17:05
bennypr0fanewhich then further decisions in the same area are based upon, sorta like the law is made by the judges - sounds pretty odd to me17:05
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I already significantly stripped redundancy from that shit, I'm not going to interprete it17:05
jacekowskibennypr0fane: not exactly17:05
jacekowskibennypr0fane: it's basically so everyone gets the same verdict in the end17:06
DocScrutinizer05I might add a request for Aspirin donations though17:06
DocScrutinizer05since this stuff kills me17:06
bennypr0fanejacekowski well I guess it was a pretty rough, schematic skecth of my friend desribeing how it works17:06
jacekowskibasically idea is, that you go and steal something from a shop17:07
jacekowskiand you get 500 years in prison for that17:07
bennypr0faneanyway I totally don't get how this can work, without laws made in parliament as a basis17:07
jacekowskithen if someone else would do the same, judge would look at previous verdicts in same or similiar case17:08
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WizardNumberNextI did run it from Xterm, I got this: AttributeError: 'PySide.Qt.Maemo5.QMaemo5DatePickSelector' object has no attribute 'connectNotify'17:13
WizardNumberNextI am going to make backup now. Then I would see how 'apt-get upgrade' would affect system. I got 38 packages, which aren't listed in HAM17:14
WizardNumberNextsorry 3217:15
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WizardNumberNextapt gnome-vfs-filechooser-backend hildon-home hildon-status-menu libcurl3 libgtk2.0-0 libgtk2.0-bin libhildon1 libhildonfm2 libpango1.0-0 libqt4-core libqt4-dbus libqt4-declarative libqt4-gui libqt4-maemo5 libqt4-multimedia libqt4-network libqt4-opengl libqt4-phonon libqt4-script libqt4-sql libqt4-sql-sqlite libqt4-svg libqt4-test libqt4-translations libqt4-webkit libqt4-xml libqt4-xmlpatterns libxml2 osso-pdf-viewer osso-17:16
WizardNumberNextwlan osso-xterm17:16
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WizardNumberNextI am quite surprised it is not listed in HAM. Any idea why?17:16
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Sicelowho is Rob?17:26
kerioboard dude17:26
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SiceloWizardNumberNext: iirc HAM doesn't list everything, yes.17:27
Sicelokerio: Bauer? :-/17:28
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keriowasn't that dude known beforehand?17:33
n900-dkJack would finish the job in 24 hours ;)17:33
SiceloWizardNumberNext: what if you 'un-daemonize' alarmed ... is the log useful? for me alarmed works as expected17:35
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: it's not even about somebody stealing the server, it could be a simple bankrupt of IPHH that would get all hw in their possession to get labeled and without proper papers you wouldn't be able to get it back. I *completely* understand and agree HiFo needs to take care about that. But what I not agree with is them insisting in a HOSTING contract17:35
bennypr0fane my problem seems to have existed before , not sure though as to which one exactly  of the many presented here is the accepted/proven one regarding current state with CSSU, since it's all rather old. a bug was raised too  Has anyone come across this issue before?17:36
povbotBug 11456: History of every conversation (SMS, IM) empty after update to PR1.317:36
bennypr0faneOh cool, let's see. bug 1146417:37
povbotBug Disappearing Conversations17:37
DocScrutinizer05hosting in my book includes maintenance, and NOBODY will offer that, since nobody (but Nemein) is competent to do17:37
WizardNumberNextalarmed is just python script, at least looks like judging by file17:37
WizardNumberNextSicelo ^^17:38
DocScrutinizer05our tech staff of sysop and maintainer volunteers hopefully eventually will be competent to offer hosting17:39
DocScrutinizer05NO WAY iphh will offer a hosting contract, neither for free nor for $5000/month17:39
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DocScrutinizer05for memo.org17:40
Siceloyeah.. i was looking at alarmd , WizardNumberNext :P17:40
WizardNumberNextSicelo: I was thinking that17:40
DocScrutinizer05WizardNumberNext: yes, it is python17:40
WizardNumberNextis it script or "binary"17:40
WizardNumberNextI didn't inspect contents of files17:41
DocScrutinizer05meh, isn't that virtually the same for python?17:41
kerioDocScrutinizer05: he probably, as usual, doesn't know wtf a hosting contract is17:41
ShadowJKhosting with maintenance is called "managed hosting" and even then probably only includes maintenance of "standard" stuff only17:41
DocScrutinizer05yep, and that's the whole problem, and he rather accepts going offline on 03-01 than maybe growing a brain and learn about that stuff17:42
SiceloWizardNumberNext: 'script' /opt/alarmed/alarmed.py17:42
WizardNumberNextSicelo: as I was thinking17:42
Sicelobennypr0fane: bug list helping? i had a friend who had your issue, and due to time constraints, we reflashed. otherwise i'm interested to know how to fix it17:45
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: whatever, asking for a hosting contract on top of a CoLo contract is bold, if the donor clearly stated they offer free CoLo only. If he bothers about possibility to repossess the server, he rather should ask for "all papers needed to ensure that we can repossess the server"17:45
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ShadowJKhosting as I understand it, is different from colo in that with colo, you own the servers, with hosting the provider owns the servers, and depending on the tyoe of hosting, you might share server with other people too.17:47
ShadowJKNeither terms, as I understand it, includes any assistance in running the servers.17:48
ShadowJKSome places are kind enough to make a best effort to make your machine bootabke and reachable again if you screw it up, but that's about as far as they'll go17:49
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ShadowJKIn general I'd assume plain "Hosting" to consist of something like 5GB space on a www server, and  a single mysql table. The server running possibly hundreds of websites :-)17:53
bennypr0faneSicelo, whatever the solution, it seems like will have to spare 2 hours to go through with it. Will post my fix (hopefully a fix) in that thread when I manage17:53
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qwazixwhich libtool should I have in scratchbox? I think I have messed it up badly17:59
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ccxCZcan I get battery status from somewhere in /sys or so?18:22
kerioonly with the bme replacement18:23
keriowith the stock bme, the best you can do is `hal-device bme`18:23
freemangordonqwazix: the one from the repos?18:24
freemangordonqwazix: "libtool                                             1.5.26-3maemo1                            Generic library support script"18:25
ccxCZafter I salvage important data out of it, I'm gonna reflash this n900. Any advice about flashing or what useful stuff to install next? I already know of power-kernel, but not much beyond that18:26
qwazixfreemangordon, I'm getting a libtool version mismatch when trying to compile embedlite-components18:27
qwazix"This is libtool 2.2.6b but the definition of this LT_INIT comes from an older release"18:28
freemangordonqwazix: do "git clean -df;git reset --heard HEAD"18:28
freemangordondpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b18:28
qwazixI did that many times, also cloned again18:28
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freemangordonlemme pull the latest and retry18:29
qwazixsame thing, m-c compiled fine, and I am stuck in components18:29
qwazixtried older commits too, I believe I borked something in sb18:30
freemangordonyeah, looks like :(18:31
freemangordonqwazix: it builds here, it is your SB18:32
qwazixok, what's your "libtool --version"18:33
qwazixalso "which libtool"18:33 (GNU libtool) 2.2.6b18:33
qwazixand apt-cache policy libtool?18:34
freemangordonInstalled: 1.5.26-3maemo118:35
freemangordonCandidate: 1.5.26-3maemo118:35
freemangordonVersion table:18:35
freemangordon*** 1.5.26-3maemo1 018:35
freemangordon500 fremantle/sdk/free Packages18:35
freemangordon500 fremantle/free Packages18:35
freemangordonqwazix: try to reinstall it18:35
qwazixI tried, I have a different which libtool so I'll try to find why that is so18:36
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thedead1440one question; there is a "Depends" line in mp-fremantle-community-pr in /var/lib/dpkg/status. Does it mean the removal of packages' names from the depends line allow those packages to be safely installed without affecting mp-fremantle-pr? Asking this as i wanted to get rid of a few apps on harmattan but they are in the "Depends" line in the meta package.18:39
infobotthedead1440 meant: one question; there is a "Depends" line in mp-fremantle-community-pr in /var/lib/dpkg/status. Does it mean the removal of packages' names from the depends line allow those packages to be safely uninstalled without affecting mp-fremantle-pr? Asking this as...18:40
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DocScrutinizer05>>The Board will do what it thinks is best for Hildon Foundation. Hopefully ,Nemein, will cooperate with whatever decision we make. <<  read twice!18:56
DocScrutinizer05hi qwazix, freemangordon18:57
freemangordonwhat's wring with those guys?18:57
thedead1440what is best for HiFo? Since when did those 2 people (1 of whom is unelected) decide whats good for the Community-at-large?18:57
freemangordonwasn't HiFo suppsed to do what is the best for Mameo Community?!?18:58
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thedead1440exactly and till date almost all their decisions are not for the best18:58
keriowhat the hell, what does nemein have to do with this18:58
freemangordonthis is getting ridiculous18:58
qwazixhi DocScrutinizer0518:58
freemangordonhi DocScrutinizer0518:58
DocScrutinizer05YAY nielDK answers :-)18:59
qwazixfreemangordon, I fixed it, it was using different libtool at different stages of build. I had to copy the m4 macros of libtool manually to /usr/share/aclocal18:59
keriois this public somewhere?18:59
freemangordonqwazix: good :)19:00
DocScrutinizer05not yet19:00
kerioor is it only public through copypasting?19:00
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DocScrutinizer05well, he just agreed on what I wrote in my last mail19:00
DocScrutinizer05and remarked there's too much confusion around19:01
freemangordonphew :)19:01
kerioalso, wtf is tim doing19:01
keriohe's the chairman19:01
keriohe's supposed to keep rogue elements in control19:01
DocScrutinizer05you're free to ask board@maemo.org19:02
DocScrutinizer05I published the whole "thread" for a reason, it's getting 'too heavy' for me19:02
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DocScrutinizer05IOW I felt urgent need to have this reviewed by community19:03
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: so now he says its ok and he agrees to what you said?19:03
DocScrutinizer05I might have made mistakes I didn't realize19:03
DocScrutinizer05no, NileDK says that19:03
DocScrutinizer05our ex-council member19:04
DocScrutinizer05here you are: >> I completely agree with Joerg here, there is just a bit too much confusion19:05
DocScrutinizer05around, and if a contract is needed, HiFo board needs to create one, and -19:05
DocScrutinizer05hope - IPHH would agree.19:05
DocScrutinizer05Have a strong fear to say the least that this wont matter soon.19:05
DocScrutinizer05But, I hope and pray this game won't end the game!19:05
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DocScrutinizer05and WTF actually:>>19:14
DocScrutinizer05**To Falk: I suggest you not risk your time setting up the server at IPHH until this gets resolved. Despite what Joerg may have done and will do, the Board still has a decision to make and may decide to have hosting out of OSUOSL.19:14
keriowhat the fucking fuck19:15
thedead1440its because Rob doesn't have anything to lose. For him this seems more like a task; he doesn't use a n900 that would be affected in any fashion so its just a volunteer service he is doing to us. That's the general impression i get from him and Tim; aloof...19:15
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john__is there a list of repositories we can use for the n90019:37
Sicelojohn__: 'standard' ones work. see /topic19:37
john__I just looked at the topic19:38
Sicelothis Hifo business is getting weird :-(19:38
* DocScrutinizer05 feels constant headache19:38
DocScrutinizer05the nasty kind that you know will not vanish any time soon19:39
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ccxCZwhat was the source for stock n900 images again? or is there something better to use when doing full resflash?20:21
infobotwell, skeiron is the semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources:
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DocScrutinizer05could somebody please "translate" this >>Hosting contract will be needed in regards to collocated contract.<< for me?20:37
freemangordonwhere's woody? :)20:38
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: could it be that "hosting" means different thing in states?20:41
ccxCZis there a way to tell which COMBINED edition is there currently?20:43
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RST38hDoc: hosting - they host your stuff at their servers20:48
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RST38hDoc: colocation - they give you a corner in the data center and a bunch of wires, you install your own servers20:49
RST38hDoc: it beats me what they want though - would call and ask20:49
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kerioccxCZ: the latest official one is pr 1.320:51
ccxCZyeah, I meant the loacal variant20:51
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Maceromg the office cracks me up21:02
nokiafreakWooa cant get tiis21:02
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kerio"Wooa cant get tiis"21:09
keriotruly enlightened words from a staggering genious21:09
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DocScrutinizer05RST38h: *I* am well aware of all this, and I hope Rob is too, now:
MartinK_N9I reay hope this just communication eror and everything gets resoved successfully21:15
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MartinK_N9after all the hard woek you all put into this21:15
Estel_the ammount of love in the air between hifo and council is... overhelming21:15
freemangordonMartinK_N9: unfortunately does not look like that, at least to me.21:15
MartinK_N9so once more - thanks a lot for soing this ! :)21:16
Estel_to me, the problem is that there is a idiotic war between hifo and council, with "gathering fanboys" via irc, tmo, and whatever21:16
freemangordonEstel_: you'd better say "between HiFo and the community" ;)21:16
freemangordonEstel_: wrong21:16
Estel_freemangordon,  bullshit21:16
Estel_after all, someone elected them, you think that everyone elected to hifo automagically becomes bastard?21:17
freemangordonEstel_: sure21:17
Estel_either system is bad, or communication sux21:17
freemangordonEstel_: did I say that?21:17
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freemangordonwhat I am saying is that there is no  "gathering fanboys"21:18
MartinK_N9I find it weird21:18
Estel_well, rob is a lawyer and he must ensure, that every law shit is set up properly, as "founding fathers" of hifo are responsible, perrsonally, for Foundation, to respect law21:18
Estel_I think he communicates it wrong way...21:18
Estel_and is quite slow to accept arguments21:18
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Estel_OTOH, Council is bitching on irc, instead of spending more time discussing it with HiFo via mailing list, or whatever21:19
MartinK_N9people seem to start behaving in weird ways once becomming HiFo board memvers :)21:19
freemangordonEstel_: and as every lawyer(and not only) with brain, he should listen to what those who know how the stuff works say21:19
Estel_(not even proposing private discussions, as it tends to end in even more hate)21:19
ShadowJKThe organization's administrative overhead seems as thick as nokia's, the slow rate at which things move ;p21:19
Estel_MartinK_N9,  I see it rather as "me vs they" syndrome21:19
freemangordonShadowJK: :nod:21:19
freemangordonand this is not supposed to work like that21:20
Estel_I just think that HiFo is totally separated from reality...21:20
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Estel_of Maemo "Community", and Council is separated from HiFo legals. Two ends of circle.21:20
ShadowJKAlso I'd like to point out that most other open source projects discuss things totally in the open :)21:20
Estel_ShadowJK,  absolutely agree21:20
freemangordonEstel_: and how is that related with "gathering fanboys"?21:20
Estel_the fact that Council members come here and show things from only one perspective?21:21
freemangordonEstel_: and Rod is banned from #maemo?!?21:21
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Estel_I see it as "we have problem", and need to find solution. What I see here is always "they have a problem, they are idiots, they don't have brain"21:21
MartinK_N9to show both perspectives21:21
MartinK_N9you need both sides21:21
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MartinK_N9or the result might be biased21:22
freemangordonand? we shall do what?21:22
Estel_freemangordon,  who knows, if he wouldmstart argumenting something in a way that teotwqaki don't like... :P21:22
freemangordonEstel_: come on, stay in track21:22
Estel_frankly, I tried to mention, that statute of hifo was flawed as hell21:22
freemangordonEstel_: but I don;t see why you blame the council for that21:23
Estel_but you (freemangordon) heroe's like woody put stamp of "trolling" into every critic21:23
Estel_well, ivgalvez was member of both hifo and council21:23
Estel_I was banned for criticizing - politely - double candidacy. What he have done for maintaining proper communication between hifo and council?21:23
freemangordonEstel_: and he was inactive well before the end odf 201221:24
Estel_if this thing was build on shit, don't expect it to bread apples.21:24
freemangordonEstel_: I don;t give a fuck why you was banned, this is totally unrelated to what we discuss21:24
ccxCZbackumenu can't serve sftp? O_o21:24
freemangordonyour ban is not related to the conflict21:25
MartinK_N9on the other hand, I cant really imagine council handling all they do now AND also all the legalese at the same time21:25
Estel_it is related - everyone who criticized *any* aspect of how hifo was planned to work, be it dual-membership or statute, was considered "troll"21:25
MartinK_N9unless it is twice as big21:25
Estel_now he have fruits21:25
freemangordonEstel_: bullshit, check the thread on TMO21:25
* Estel_ shrugs21:25
Estel_freemangordon,  months after accepting flawed statute and electing people that were not suitable to be elected, even by that statute? :P21:26
Estel_this thread is worthless, time for it was *then*21:26
freemangordonEstel_: you are well aware we were running out of time?21:26
freemangordonnot to say that *now* it is pointless to discuss "what if"21:27
Estel_HiFo was created in shadow of administration/moderation abuse, censorship of *legally right* free speech, criticism, etc. Now you're surprised that things are shit and not discussed in open21:27
Estel_freemangordon,  I'm a little afraid that we're already post "running out of time"21:27
freemangordonEstel_: We are still not (afaik) but getting closer21:28
Estel_hope I'm wrong on this one, honestly.21:28
Estel_from my subjective and biased perspectice, it's lethal already21:28
freemangordonsure, if something don;t chage in the upcoming 48 hours21:29
MartinK_N9we have hardware & some hopefully still intetested in collocating it21:29
Estel_I just don't see way to fix it unless we go "pirate way". Legal shit around hifo is unfixable21:29
Estel_why 48?21:29
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MartinK_N9just get that legaleze sorted out damn it :)21:29
freemangordonMartinK_N9: "we" as in? as it is HiFo who holds the legal rights AFAIK21:30
freemangordonEstel_: for example21:30
* Estel_ nods21:30
freemangordonthat is how I see it21:30
MartinK_N9well the community we but yeah :)21:30
Estel_freemangordon,  sure, but I think - as said, at least in my opinion - that nice contributors like you, miss some major thing. It willmbe *never* healthy community, if it's build upon acceptance of things that happened around Maemo21:31
Estel_*moral*, if not directly, is well related to how things are running21:31
MartinK_N9sad that it sometimes loks like HiFo != community21:31
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freemangordonEstel_: I am not aware of anything better than democracu, are you?21:32
Estel_you said you don't give a shit about two innocnt guys that got banned eternally, or my ban, or how irc is handled or... Fair enough. But giving acceptance to that, you add your share to accepting things, that make managing Maemo sick21:32
MartinK_N9well those people were all woted in21:32
SiceloFebruary is a bad month for maemo, always. gawd21:32
Estel_define democracy - the variant with ostracizm is quite outdated, approx 3k years21:32
MartinK_N9and anybody could candidate21:32
freemangordonEstel_: the one we live in21:32
Estel_I like democracy, but it require more responsibility from people, en masse21:33
Estel_freemangordon,  well, I think democracy is nice as long as people *are* interested in keeping things fair21:33
freemangordonEstel_: those people were elected. period21:33
Estel_if people are interested only in "having things working OK", and are closing eyes to abuse, mistreatment, etc, it becomes sick21:33
Estel_it doesn't meant they can do whatever they wqnt21:34
freemangordonand honestly, I really mis ivgalvez21:34
infobotEstel_ meant: it doesn't meant they can do whatever they want21:34
Estel_miss whoever you want, the result is, if you accept wrong-doers, not only some people "suffern, but also everything else stops to working, slowly21:34
Estel_it's same for country-wide democracies21:34
Estel_Putin was also elected ;)21:35
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freemangordonEstel_: so what?21:35
Estel_democracy isn't about "I vote right people and don't give shit"21:36
Estel_if you stopped (or never did) carrying about if they're fair, or respecting other's rights, etc, it isn't democracy anymore21:36
Estel_it's idontcarecracy21:37
Estel_aka what happens in many civilized countries, nowadays :)21:37
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Estel_even worse - the more respected member of your community you are, the higher impact is, when you say that you don't care about some missdoings21:38
Estel_this is equal to legitimizing such actions21:38
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freemangordonEstel_: the point is that you mix the things - your relatins with the moderators and the current migration status. I guess you are not gifted with hindsight, so please, don't say "toldya"21:39
DocScrutinizer05((<Estel_> OTOH, Council is bitching on irc, instead of spending more time discussing it with HiFo via mailing list, or whatever))  Oh PLEASE, c'mon!!! spread a bit more shit about what council does21:39
Estel_it doesn't matter if you like ivgalvez or others, it's about legitimizing wrong things they did, if you say that you - as one of biggest maemo contribugtors - doesn't care about it21:39
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Estel_DocScrutinizer05, I must admit that you're the one who try to keep discussion with hifo transparent21:39
Estel_at least it seems so21:40
freemangordonEstel_: I don;t care at *this* point in time, as it is irrelevant to the waaay bigger problems that very community has21:40
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Estel_freemangordon,  butterfly effect ;)21:40
freemangordonyeah, sure21:40
Estel_if you don't care about small shit now, it becomes big stinking shit later21:40
* freemangordon knows what butterfly effect is :P21:40
Estel_well, and you know that corruption starts by minor things getting corrupted?21:41
freemangordonEstel_: again, we have a situation. IMO we should focus on how to get out of it and keep maemo alive, everything else is less important *NOW*21:42
Estel_well, for me it's not about "foreseing" - it's about common sense and experience, that show you clear signs of bad things starting to happen. You say that those things are irrelevant with bigger problems on horizon - here we disagree21:43
freemangordonthose are not on horizon, the problems are here21:43
Ex-OpesaHi. Is there anyway to check log or changes applied to extras and extras-testing official repository? [such as added new app or updated/etc?]21:43
Ex-Opesaa way*21:44
Estel_I see it as organism, that need to be healthy as whole, at the same time21:44
Estel_freemangordon,  ok, not horizon ;)21:44
freemangordonand if we don;t solve them, maemo will be extinguished. IMO21:44
Estel_well, there is always something more important than carrying about morals ;) the problem is that I don't belive that people lacking moral values are able to fix current problems21:44
freemangordonEstel_: I don't thing that Rob not knowing the difference between "hosting" and "colocation" has anything to do with the moral21:45
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freemangordonso your "moral" point is moot21:46
Estel_:P I think that Council and HiFo ignoring moral things in the past, are less like to understand each other at the present21:46
Estel_they will focus on hating each other21:46
freemangordonooh, this is overcompicated for a stupid developr like me :P21:47
Estel_blaming, etc21:47
Estel_you wouldn't belive how many times, even in last 50 years, things like goverments failed due to personal flaws and bad "atmosphere", despite logic, rules, system etc. dictating otherwise21:48
freemangordonEstel_: sure, democracy, you know :P21:48
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freemangordonbut nothing better is invented AFAIK ;)21:49
Estel_well, I don't see people, nor in Council or HiFo, able to fix problems, even in presencde of awesome, ideal rules. Even less, when we have fucked up statute21:49
Estel_thangs to woody and your other favorites :P21:49
Estel_(all those who prepared and pushed the statute)21:50
Estel_(and all those who would vote yes for whatever statute we would have, just to get hifo going)21:50
Estel_disclaimer - not that I insist that I would be able to do it better ;)21:51
Estel_BTW representative democracy suxx, I'm fan of direct democracy, where every person is responsible for participating in law creation, not only delegating "votes" to selected representants21:52
freemangordonEstel_: favourites? wrong. but whatever. The way those guys trust me and install the software, tweaks, whatever I came with, the same way I feel about those who produce legal stuff and such. I know what I am good in and what I am not (or don;t want to). And if I make your device bootloop, it is not necessarily because of my bad moral ;)21:52
Estel_unnecessary proxy are they, politicians, in world of currently available technology. It's relict of past days, when it was technically feasible to have 1 person representing thousands21:53
freemangordonEstel_: it was Nokia requirement21:53
Estel_freemangordon,  sure, but you haven't inserted backdoor into KP to fry karam's device because you don't like it21:53
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infobotEstel_ meant: freemangordon,  sure, but you haven't inserted backdoor into KP to fry karam's device because you don't like him21:53
Estel_shit about TMO and IRC moderations, and other abuses, are just like that - fraud of trust21:54
Estel_accepting and legitimizing things that happened around moderation of Community infrastructure (tmo and irc is it, too), is just like accepting harmful backdoors in software, if you need developer-friendly comparisions21:55
freemangordonEstel_: as soon as community take over the repos, I'll do my best to get that piece of crap out of rmo. Call me whatever you like21:55
Estel_batterypatch? well, community have repos already, just everything is screwed21:56
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freemangordonEstel_: also, who told you that I don;t like Karam? that's bullshit.21:56
Estel_and as long as your best doesn't mean anything against rules, it's ok.21:56
Estel_just example, not necessary real one21:57
Estel_insert any name there instead of karam21:57
Estel_let it be estel :P21:57
freemangordonwhat I don;t like is what he did (crappatches).21:57
freemangordonYou may get your reasons from the relevant people, not me ;)21:57
Estel_:P because you're not some shitty wrongdoer, using sane reaqsoning21:58
Estel_now, the same can't be said about chemist, or even woody21:58
Estel_or doc, to some extent :P21:58
freemangordonI can say it21:58
Estel_you wouldn't even think of abusing trust that users have in KP to do some personal things21:59
freemangordonI had discussions with both of them and according to my understanding they are reasonablr21:59
freemangordonEstel_: don;t count on that :P21:59
Estel_many wrong-doers are reasonable generally, just suck at certain responsibilities :P21:59
freemangordonEstel_: this is getting far off-topic (maemo survival)22:00
Estel_but if they were elected to run community or parts of it, and they abuse some mechanism, or accept abusing it somewhere else when they could and should react, is just like you would insert backdoor in KP or hide discovery of backdoor in other software22:00
Estel_lets say cssu :P22:00
Estel_freemangordon,  true ;)22:01
Estel_btw maemo suvival sounds like nokia care22:01
Estel_funny when used in one sentence22:01
* Estel_ hides22:01
Estel_btw, just to be able to tell "tolday" later - I think they will settle down this "crisis"22:03
Estel_and one of following three "crisises" will kill maemo22:03
* Estel_ waves22:04
infobotbme-replacement is probably
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DocScrutinizer05wow, Nostradamus resurrected22:33
DocScrutinizer05wonder if our new age Nostradamus calculated the 7 "crisises" we already had which were not visible to the general public22:35
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DocScrutinizer05btw I don't mind what Mr Nostradamus thinks or tells about me, since we all know he believes I should handle everything in my life according to maemo "rules", *his* maemo rules, no matter how unrelated they actually are to anything maemo or Nokia. But to state that >>well, I don't see people [...] in Council [...] able to fix problems<< due to >>Council [...] ignoring moral things<< - that's a gross insult against the other two23:02
DocScrutinizer05remaining council members23:02
keriowait, three council members23:04
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DocScrutinizer05three minus me are two23:06
keriooh, i see23:07
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ccxCZwhat would be the 0xFFFF line to flash emmc and combined?23:35
ccxCZ0xFFFF -f -M emmc.bin -M combined.bin ?23:37
ccxCZor should it be done sseparately?23:37
kerio0xffff can't flash the emmc23:38
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ccxCZic. theoretically I should be able to do that from backupmenu/rescueos, shouldn't I?23:41
ccxCZassuming it's not in some superweirdformat23:42
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ccxCZis it safe to flash just the stock rootfs without the firmwares?23:47
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PaliccxCZ, without which firmware?23:50
Palicmt? yes23:50
ccxCZbootloader, gsm, etc. I don't think I have reason to flash that23:51
ccxCZI just want to reset the sw23:51
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