IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2013-02-04

keriosniffing is passive, polling is active00:00
Estel_well, true00:00
Estel_you actually talk to i2c, not just read data00:00
Estel_like with registers file00:00
Estel_traps, traps everywhere!00:00
Estel_excuse my specifinc sense of humour, while scripting new version on bme, I'm in "coding" madness ;)00:01
Estel_scripting sadness00:01
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luffreemangordon: Welcome back man. What about you health? Is it better now?00:06
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Estel_Pali,  sorry for interrupting you, but I got small dillemda related to your newest implementation of bq27x00_battery as in newest kp's00:30
Estel_as you remember, there were earlier version of that module in olders KP's, that had wrong calculations00:31
Estel_there is still a chance that someone may be using it, though00:31
Estel_now, I want to check, in my script, that bq27x00_battery is *loaded*= but *only* the "fixed" one00:31
Paliirrelevant for bme replacement which working only with >= kp5200:31
Estel_now, how to distinguish it from older one on older kernels?00:32
Estel_well, my script works with or without bme replacement00:32
Paliuse uname for kernel version00:32
Estel_it uses bq27x00_battery exported data, and if not, i2cget00:32
Pali$ uname -r00:32
Estel_well, kernel present != module loaded00:32
Palicheck if exists dir /sys/class/...00:32
Estel_of course I though about that, but I don't want to force usage of this module on BNF users, even if the6're kp users00:32
Estel_sure, but it exist for older kenrnel too00:33
Estel_and old module with wrong values00:33
Palicheck kernel version00:33
Pali$ uname -r00:33
Estel_at the same time... hm, ok00:33
Estel_btw on which version of KP you've fixed bq27x00_battery, Pali?00:34
Estel_since which version?00:34
PaliI do not know, I fixed different problems in different versions00:35
Paliand now I see that in upstream kernel and kernel-power temperature of bq27x00_battery is reported in bad units00:35
Palikernel api say that it should be reported in 1/100°C but bq27x00_battery report it in 1/10°C00:36
Estel_0_o deja-vu00:36
Palirx51_battery reporting temperature in 1/100°C00:36
PaliI do not know if changing it in kernel-power is good idea00:36
Estel_do you remember ammount of false bug reports, when you've changed it? :P00:37
Palibut I will sent patch to upstream kernel00:37
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Estel_if they accept it, then bring it to kp00:37
LinuxCodewhen will this hash sums stuff be fixed for extra-devel ?00:37
LinuxCodeI cannot seem to install some packages from extra-devel because of it00:37
PaliEstel_, see:
LinuxCodedoes the CSSU kernel have hardware support for aes ?00:38
LinuxCodeI cam across this00:38
PaliLinuxCode, do you mean omap AES support?00:38
jacekowskikernel power had aes support00:39
Palino kernel support00:39
freemangordonit needs some special NOLO00:39
Paliit needs special *x-loader*00:39
jacekowskinot that special00:39
jacekowskiit's only one mshield register that is set differently00:39
freemangordonjacekowski: hmm?00:39
Estel_well, truecrypt would benefit like hell from hardware aes support, I suppose00:40
LinuxCodewill I start a war, if I ask if it will be in eventually ?00:40
LinuxCodeEstel_, so would dm-crypt00:40
* Estel_ nods00:40
freemangordonEstel_: IIRC according to benchmarks HW is slower than SW00:40
PaliI asked nokia developer and he told me that special x-loader has included special binary blob in secure mode which doing something whith mshield00:40
LinuxCodeever since I heard reports that the UK police will now just read people's mobiles out00:40
LinuxCodeI am feeling distinctly uneasy00:40
Palisomething which cannot be configured from kernel or nolo00:40
Estel_never though we have smth like it. Well, even without hw aes, twofish and serpent works quite fast, still00:41
Estel_freemangordon,  was afraid about smth like that00:41
freemangordonjacekowski: we don't have code in kernel running in secure mode00:41
jacekowskifreemangordon: it's not about secure mode00:41
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Palijacekowski, do you have some more info about it?00:41
jacekowskifreemangordon: it's about enabling the hardware, and that is controlled by mshield stuff00:41
Estel_freemangordon,  so any reason to use hw aes "acceler"?00:41
Estel_LinuxCode,  about police - ha ha, I would like to see one reading N900's encrypted content00:42
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jacekowskifreemangordon: according to benchmark HW AES was faster than SW00:42
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Estel_just be sure to have lock code set to 5 minutes00:42
Pali>> You need special boot loader, because it has secure code to enable it.. You cannot do it from non-secure side. <<00:42
jacekowskifreemangordon: as in, someone tried it in this channel00:42
Pali>> Nolo has binary blob for that. <<00:43
freemangordonjacekowski: ok, my memories are vague. However, we can't change anything but AUX reg from the kernel. And we don;t have the keys to sign PPA application00:43
Pali>> In order to use AES hw it is necessary to enable it during boot from Secure side. It is done by special code which is compiled as part of bootloader. <<00:43
LinuxCodeso I guess we wont see it then00:43
Estel_lets slice clod brute force on keys during every kp and cssu installation00:43
Palithis is what nokia developer told me00:44
freemangordonPali: could there be some call to the secure monitor?00:44
Estel_LinuxCode,  don't be sad, though - IDK why, but on N900, serpent seems fastest during benchmarks00:44
Estel_no idea why00:44
Estel_as we have more support for twofish and aes, theoretically00:44
Palibut I have that *special* flasher, x-loader, nolo and source code of kernel drivers00:44
jacekowskifreemangordon: we don't have to00:44
freemangordonPali: the problem is that it is only for one HW revision iirc00:45
Palifreemangordon, I asked that nokia developer and he told me that it is not possible00:45
jacekowskifreemangordon: once bootloader enables it, you can use it fine from unsecure kernel00:45
freemangordonjacekowski: sure, but we don;t have that bootloader00:45
Palifreemangordon, all 21xx and 22xx have same xloader and nolo00:45
jacekowskifreemangordon: we do00:45
freemangordonhmm, ok00:45
Paliso that is not for one but for more hw revision00:45
Estel_there are only two revisions in practical existence, and another 2 virtually non-existent now00:46
jacekowskisomeone linked it like 2 years ago in this channel00:46
DocScrutinizer05since the signature is same for all hw rev00:46
LinuxCodeonly reason why I mentioned AES hw support is, that surely there will be power savings00:46
Palijacekowski, do you know if it is possible to enable it from non secure side?00:46
freemangordonPali: I doubt that will be possible00:47
jacekowskifrom limited amount of information i could find about mshield, yes it is possible00:47
jacekowskiif mshield is configured to allow it00:47
jacekowskiso that is no in our case00:47
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, does the extra-devel repo need updating or something, I keep getting hash sums mismatches, which then means I cant install stuff00:47
Palijacekowski, do you have some information about mshield?00:47
jacekowskiPali: very limited00:47
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: the key is expired00:48
LinuxCodemerlin1991, mentioned something about rebuilding/re-checkign that ?!?!00:48
PaliI was not able to find anything00:48
jacekowskiPali: mostly marketing stuff00:48
jacekowskiPali: no real technical info00:48
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, elaborate please00:48
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: ask pali about it, he knows all the details00:48
LinuxCodegpg key used for signing ?00:48
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Palijacekowski, ok00:48
DocScrutinizer05err, or maybe I'm completely wrong00:48
PaliLinuxCode, GPG key on was expired00:49
LinuxCodeahh k00:49
Paliso SSU and OVI repositories not working00:49
DocScrutinizer05I guess the extras(-devel) is autobuilder related00:49
Estel_LinuxCode,  either use apt directly, or fapmanp or red pill mode00:49
LinuxCodeso how can I disable gpg key checks for extra-devel ?00:49
LinuxCodewell I did apt00:49
LinuxCodeit bitches there too00:49
Estel_if 3th option, then disable those superiority of signed content in options00:49
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991 and thedead1440 should know what's the problem with hashsum00:49
Paliextras-devel is on maemo.org00:49
Paliand GPG key is without expiration date00:49
Estel_LinuxCode,  maybe you're using some mirror?00:50
LinuxCodeI tried to install cryptfs00:50
LinuxCodeEstel_, let me double check00:50
Estel_LinuxCode,  why the hell encrypt home?00:50
LinuxCodeno extras-devel00:50
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freemangordonPali, jacekowski: I guess we can disassemble xloader with and without that mshield stuff and check what needs to be dome00:50
Estel_You're keeping that confidential non-police-eyes data on opt, or what?00:51
LinuxCodeEstel_, ?00:51
Estel_truecrypt partition seems more reasonable re performance and power savings00:51
Estel_well, I wonder why do you want to encrypt whole $HOME00:51
LinuxCodeI havent done anything yet, I just want to install a few things from extra-devel00:51
Palifreemangordon, that nokia developer wrote me that he included into x-loader/nolo some binary blob without source code00:51
LinuxCodewithout getting the error00:51
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Estel_there is GUI'fied (without sacrificing CL) latest TrueCrypt in repos00:51
Estel_just repartition your emmc or sd card and encrypt whole partition via truecrypt00:52
Estel_or two of them00:52
Estel_one for less-secure things, and then config maemo to keep addressbook, mails, passwords, settings, photos and videos there...00:52
LinuxCodethat is one option00:52
Estel_and auto-mount it at boot time, just provising password and keys00:52
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: Estel_ is in a rage, he highlighted you on accident00:52
Estel_no, I don't.00:53
LinuxCodeso, how do I fix this hash sums issue for extras-devel ?00:53
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LinuxCodethat would really help me out ;-}00:53
Estel_actually, we're talking about encyption, and you interlooped, DocScrutinizer05 ;)00:53
LinuxCodealso stop me from hammering the repo twice00:53
Estel_LinuxCode,  no idea about repo key, but as for your needs about encrypting, it seems to me that truecrypt is more feasible00:54
Paliaccording to there is linux tool generate_MLO which is MShield signing tool00:54
Estel_such partition mounted at boot time ensures that all your private things are saved there. If you have lock code, no one can ever bypass it without rebooting device...00:54
Estel_which always unmount said partition00:54
freemangordonPali: sure, you just need the keys :D00:54
LinuxCodeEstel_, I know00:54
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Estel_= no one, thief or police, will access your photos, addressbook, mails etc00:54
LinuxCodeEstel_, Im just exploring options atm00:55
Estel_I see00:55
Estel_well, just tiving advice, as I was through all this before00:55
Estel_checking every encryption option ;)00:55
LinuxCodeI must admit though, I kind of like the patch I saw, where one has to enter the /home key at boot00:55
Estel_sure, but it hurts performance and battery life for whole device00:55
LinuxCodebecause that would confuse anyone who is not a linux user00:55
Estel_confidential data or not00:55
LinuxCodeEstel_, well, why would truevrypt have better performance ?00:56
Estel_because, when you encrypt whole /dev/mmcblk0p2 , you also do so for many programs00:56
Estel_that don't need it's data encrypted00:57
LinuxCodeohh I wouldnt do that00:57
Estel_every second in your device runtime = accessing some encrypted thing00:57
LinuxCodeI already resized the partitions00:57
Palifreemangordon, btw, we have in maemo kernel mshield RNG driver00:57
LinuxCodebecause I previously hit the 2GB max limit00:57
Estel_so why to encrypt home at all?00:57
Paliwhich is not in upstream kernel00:57
PaliRNG = random number generator00:58
Estel_just prepare separate encrypted partition and throw there everything that need to be encrypted, symlinking it00:58
Estel_so, for example, mailbox settings or addressbook00:58
LinuxCodeEstel_, I will do that with dm-crypt00:58
jacekowskihardware AES is still pretty slow00:58
LinuxCodeI think00:58
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: we have an expired signing key on Nokia SSU, we have hashsum errors on maemo (probably introduced by autobuilder, ask merlin1991 and thedead1440 and brkn about it)00:58
freemangordonPali:, this is for BB GP aiui00:58
Estel_well, why not00:58
jacekowskiif i remember numbers correctly it's somewhere aroudn 15M/s00:58
jacekowskifor hardware00:58
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, k00:58
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: and we have a repo.m.o that's slow like molasses00:58
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Estel_LinuxCode,  using truecrypt, I have some nice gui window loaded just after hildon-desktop, that ask for password and/or keys00:59
freemangordonPali: scratch that, it does nothing00:59
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, yeah, but I am wondering if partially people are double hammering the server , because of it00:59
LinuxCodeHAM downloads twice the same package, then asks if ya want to give up00:59
Estel_if not provided, addressbook is empty as in fresh device, no mail accounts, etc00:59
Estel_yet everything *seems* to work00:59
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: the mirrors mostly have the hashsum problem as well, afaik. One has not as it didn't pick up on the faulty original rmo (aiui)00:59
LinuxCodeEstel_, I saw a set up like that yes, just over-mount /home/opt or whatever00:59
teotwaki__"ask for password and/or keys"00:59
teotwaki__So, where do you get the keys from? A USB fob?01:00
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, I see01:00
Estel_teotwaki,  keys can be files too01:00
Palifreemangordon, I know what signGP.c doing01:00
Estel_you have whole N900 of file candidates :)01:00
Estel_mixing it with passwords is quite nice01:00
teotwaki__Estel_: what's the point of having the keys on the device, if it's just to query for the password?01:00
Estel_it may be something from mydocs, or from opt, pr from anywhere01:00
teotwaki__Either way, you can't revoke the certificate remotely, you can't do anything that would be a benefit when using keys.01:01
Estel_because possible passwords * all files on device * all combination of those files is more than just password?01:01
LinuxCodemerlin1991, ping01:01
teotwaki__you're just adding 1 bit of entropy01:01
Estel_certificate? I'm not sure if we're talking about same thing01:01
Estel_no, certainly not01:01
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: same screwed thinking that makes devels store pop3 passwords in obfuscated form in a config file01:02
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Estel_I'm talking about truecrypt encrypted partition, which uses password and first 1MB of data from every key file (no limit of ammount of key files)01:02
Estel_to encrypt01:02
Estel_and then decrypt01:02
teotwaki__oh fucking hell, stop drinking the truecrypt koolaid.01:02
Estel_not to mention random pool which is irrelevant, btw01:02
Estel_technical arguments against it or it doesn't happened :P01:03
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teotwaki__if you store the keyfiles on the same device, there is no added security.01:03
teotwaki__There is an added security bias, but no added security.01:03
Estel_seriously? so how anyone is supposed to know which files to use even with known password?01:03
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: futile01:03
Estel_well, I'm asking about technical answer01:04
Estel_if my thinking is wrong, I'll gladly confirm it01:04
DocScrutinizer05maybe by using file `find /` ?01:04
teotwaki__Because if truecrypt can use the files, it means it has to validate those files as valid input, which means it's either just a hash (which is a terrible way to decrypt files), or the files can be found through find -exec.01:04
Estel_it doesnt validate them01:04
Estel_it uses everything you throw at it01:04
teotwaki__So it's just a hash of the first 1MB.01:04
Estel_and it doewsn't event know if partition is really encrypted01:04
Estel_until you feed it with correct password and keyfiles01:05
teotwaki__which is about as useful as a plaintext string written down in /etc.01:05
Estel_first of all, truecrypt have no idea if partition is encrypted or just random01:05
Estel_second, it have no idea about files you're throwing at it01:05
DocScrutinizer05the shellscript to "crack" this "encryption level" is about one line, and takes about 20 min runtime on N90001:06
Estel_hash or not, one have to physically test mixing every keyfile with password, during bruteforcing01:06
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  suuure, elaborate more01:06
teotwaki__Estel_: but you agree the device is stolen01:06
teotwaki__Estel_: and the files are on the device01:06
Estel_teotwaki,  sure01:06
teotwaki__so bruteforce time has little impact01:06
teotwaki__yet all the info needed is still on the device01:06
teotwaki__it's just a matter of time, correct?01:06
Estel_it have, when it's more than lifetime of sun ;)01:07
teotwaki__And you can eliminate any file under 1MB01:07
Estel_files underr 1MB can be used too01:07
Estel_it's just that it parses up to 1MB of file01:07
DocScrutinizer05if there are 10000 files to test, this is equivalent to 2 more chars in your password01:07
Estel_and treat is as part of random data input due encryption, methinks01:07
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  wrong as usual01:07
teotwaki__Estel_: it's just pseudo entropy.01:07
Estel_you don't know if you need 2 files, one, or 1001:08
DocScrutinizer05as *your* usual?01:08
Estel_+ anu combination01:08
DocScrutinizer05then I agree01:08
infobotEstel_ meant: + any combination01:08
Estel_you don't even know *if* there is key file at all01:08
teotwaki__Estel_: and do you really think that people will click on 10 or 20 files, in the right order, everytime they restart their phone?01:08
DocScrutinizer05insulting as usual, and clueless as estel usually is01:08
teotwaki__Oh no, that's right, they'll do it once, forget the combination, and then come cry here on how to reset it.01:08
Estel_teotwaki,  I restart it ~once per month, so yes01:08
Estel_since I uploaded truecrypt to devel, no one ever did that01:09
FIQtruecrypt for maemo?01:09
Estel_and it have some big pool of users, even if 1/10of downloader use it :P01:09
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FIQhow exactly does that work01:09
LinuxCodethere is a password and username for lol ?!?!01:09
Estel_FIQ,  since ages?01:09
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LinuxCodeor was01:09
teotwaki__or maybe, they will not forget it, but because their phone is always on 24/7, for 8 months at once (ZOMG uptime of 183 days!), you just need to press the unlock button, and have access to the... that's right, the decrypted partition.01:09
Estel_FIQ,  gimme a second01:09
Estel_teotwaki,  nope.01:10
Estel_if phone is stolen or seized01:10
Estel_one need to reboot it at least once to get pass lock code01:10
Estel_either reflash or easy crack01:10
Estel_either reflash or easy crack01:10
LinuxCodeEstel_, why dont you give FIQ a how to01:10
teotwaki__Estel_: you do realise I've deployed security systems for banks and governments, right?01:10
Estel_anyway, part get unmounted01:10
LinuxCodethere are a few01:10
FIQa how to for truecrypt? I don't feel I need it01:10
LinuxCodeFIQ, k01:11
FIQJust curious how it worked for maemo01:11
Estel_FIQ,  I'll link you to thread about truecrypt on maemo01:11
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: no he doesn't realize01:11
teotwaki__just put the files on a usb fob, use the host mode to retrieve the files during boot, and don't keep the fob and the phone together. Done.01:11
Estel_just a minute01:11
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: futile01:11
FIQEstel_: sure01:11
Estel_teotwaki,  sure, that's and option01:11
Estel_but, frankly, it all depends on what you're securing01:11
Estel_I haven't said that it is feasible to encrypt boot-time mounted partition wit keys01:11
teotwaki__Estel_: it's the only option, yours doesn't even pass FIPS01:11
Estel_99% of times, password is enough01:12
teotwaki__and that 1% of the time01:12
Estel_for more touchy data, use encrypted partition that is mounted only when you need it01:12
Estel_or hidden partition inside outer one01:12
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teotwaki__they'll use a $2 pair of scissors and make you unlock the focking phone.01:12
infobotteotwaki__ meant: they'll use a $2 pair of scissors and make you unlock the fucking phone.01:12
Estel_well, that's outside of scope and can be used against any security anywhere01:13
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Estel_on usb stick too01:13
FIQteotwaki__: now you remind me of a certain xkcd01:13
Estel_it's popular one01:13
teotwaki__FIQ: I had that xkcd happen to me, or rather, a project I worked on.01:13
Estel_teotwaki,  frankly, my setup is low-security partition mount at boot time for photos, addresbook etc01:13
FIQ found it01:14
Estel_so random thief/finder won't access my photo01:14
Estel_or addressbook or configs01:14
teotwaki__We deployed a Chip&Pin system for a bank in the UK. The bank gave its customers a small device they could slide their card into, type their PIN, and get either an OTP to login to the website, or a CR to authorise transactions.01:14
Estel_or whatever01:14
teotwaki__A couple months after it was deployed01:14
teotwaki__a couple of french dudes got tortured inside their apartment, after two days of torture, both of them died.01:14
Estel_+ I use 2nd partition *not*mounted at boot time, that I keep empty just in case i ever need to store something secure01:15
Estel_for this purpose, I have script to encrypt swap too01:15
teotwaki__The thieves used the bank's device to validate whether the kids were telling them the right PIN.01:15
Estel_of course tracker etc keeps away from both partitions01:15
* DocScrutinizer05 thought for random finder/thief we got device lock code01:15
Estel_despite what you're trying to say, I see this layout both practical and feasible ;)01:15
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, lol, in the UK ?01:15
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  bullshit, as easy reflash will reveal mydocs01:15
LinuxCodeI have one fo those01:15
teotwaki__LinuxCode: aye01:15
Estel_with photos01:15
LinuxCodeyou would just give people the pin then call the bank and police after01:16
LinuxCodewho cares about the money01:16
teotwaki__LinuxCode: not if you're dead when they leave.01:16
Estel_teotwaki,  but it isn't any argument against security01:16
LinuxCodewas that in the news ?01:16
teotwaki__yeah, big story01:16
teotwaki__hang on01:16
Estel_it doesn't have anything to do for passwords01:16
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: sure?01:16
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, I hope this wont be a story in the Sun or Daily Mail01:17
Estel_and you still haven't told me why storing keys on device is no better than key-less setup, security wise01:17
Estel_against bruteforce crack01:17
* DocScrutinizer05 thinks Estel_'s info is obsolete since PR1.301:17
Estel_and I don't mean bruteforce as in scizzors :P01:17
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Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  hm?01:17
teotwaki__LinuxCode: it was in 200801:17
Estel_I'm sure that reflashing allows me to boot device without lock code question01:17
Estel_even if lock code is set01:18
DocScrutinizer05you probably could reflash a PR1.2 image though01:18
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, k gfound it01:18
Estel_it isn't changed, but not asked01:18
LinuxCodeI must have missed that01:18
Estel_unless you enable it again01:18
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, it was several hours not days01:18
FIQisn't there a master lock code?01:18
teotwaki__LinuxCode: my bad01:18
LinuxCodebut yeh, then you just give them your pin01:18
FIQin case lock code is forgotten01:18
DocScrutinizer05FIQ: nope01:19
FIQwhich basically renders lock code useless if you know the algoritm01:19
LinuxCodecall the police call bank, you will get the mney back01:19
FIQoh okay01:19
Estel_FIQ,  during device reflash01:19
Estel_asking for lock code is removed01:19
LinuxCodeas you werent reckless...01:19
Estel_so you can boot device and access mydocs etc freely01:19
Estel_on pr1.3 too01:19
FIQthen what's the point?01:19
DocScrutinizer05FIQ: and iirc in PR1.3 you need to flash eMMC too, to reset / disable the lockcode01:20
FIQthat being said01:20
Estel_also, after that, you may use either john to crack lock code in 3 seconds, or qwerty's file to reset it01:20
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  wrong01:20
Estel_did it zillion of times01:20
FIQnothing is impossible, you can just make stuff harder for evil people01:20
Estel_no need to flash emmc ever, to achieve anything01:20
teotwaki__LinuxCode: actually, the reason why banks are pushing for Chip&Pin is because it moves all liability to the customer.01:20
FIQbut not impossible01:20
Estel_no need to flash emmc ever, to achieve anything01:20
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FIQthat's how I see on things anyway01:20
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, of course, but that has already been proven as ineffective01:20
FIQDocScrutinizer05: ok01:20
LinuxCodeby security researchers01:20
Estel_that's why I was just to said that I don't held bank and goverment security in high regard01:20
teotwaki__LinuxCode: look at the booklet/contract you got when you got your chip&pin card, it says that if you disclose your PIN, you are not legible for reimbursement.01:21
Estel_when you told me about working on it01:21
Estel_just didn't wanted to be inpolite01:21
LinuxCodein Africa they use biometrics01:21
LinuxCodebetter than chip and pin01:21
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teotwaki__no, definitely not.01:21
LinuxCodeeye vein scan01:21
teotwaki__biometrics is a hollywood gimmick.01:21
Estel_too much s-fi01:21
LinuxCodeor something01:21
FIQit isn't better01:21
LinuxCodebetter than chip and pin01:22
FIQdrug the user down, force him to authencate01:22
teotwaki__you don't use public information to authenticate a person01:22
FIQproblem solved01:22
Estel_it reminds me or idiotic programs for laptops01:22
teotwaki__FIQ: not even that, fingerprints can be recovered at the mark's building, car, office, bus.01:22
Estel_that use face image01:22
Estel_to login01:22
Estel_or users photo01:22
FIQteotwaki__: that too :P01:22
Estel_well, best security is multi-layered one01:22
FIQthough it looks cool!01:22
teotwaki__face image or retinal scan can be obtained with $2000 worth of equipment from 200m distance.01:22
Estel_if attacker doesn't know number of layers required, it's even bette01:23
teotwaki__Chip&Pin is infinitely better than biometrics01:23
FIQ(biometric auth that is)01:23
teotwaki__it has its faults, but still01:23
Estel_thats why i still think that keyfiles the way truecrypt uses them is still better than nothing, and it certainly complicates things01:23
Estel_teotwaki,  now interesting thing01:23
teotwaki__Estel_: just drop it.01:24
Estel_truecrypt allow you to have set of password and keyfiles for partition revealing data01:24
Estel_and other set for *same partition*01:24
Estel_revealing other data01:24
Estel_without limit of number of such layers01:24
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teotwaki__so just steganography01:24
Estel_no technical possibility to determine if there are more layers inside01:24
Estel_you may reveal 10layers01:24
Estel_due to exortion01:25
DocScrutinizer05complicates things, yes, a lot! ... for the user01:25
FIQsounds like it would allow multiple partitions on one place which could have other uses01:25
Estel_and no one will be ever sure if there is no 11 one01:25
teotwaki__it is steganography... you hide indistinguishable information in meaningful information01:25
Estel_no way to determine if empty space is just encrypted empty space or some data in another layer01:25
Estel_not exactly01:25
teotwaki__yes, exactly.01:25
Estel_not even truexcrypt knows if partition contain it01:25
Estel_nope, as in steganography it is still obtainable01:26
DocScrutinizer05that multilayer stuff to create plausible deniability causes even more torture01:26
Estel_if you forget how many layers you have or password/keyfiles for it, no fuckin way to even determine it was even there01:26
DocScrutinizer05since they never will stop until you die01:26
Estel_aka plausible deniability01:26
teotwaki__"I heard the definition of steganography 10 years ago on hackersnews, so now I know that all steganography is based on hiding text in pictures"01:26
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  at this point you will not know yourself how many layers you had01:26
Estel_so they still won't get what they want01:27
Estel_as you're dead anyway, no loss for you01:27
teotwaki__there's no secret big enough to die for01:27
Estel_teotwaki,  please, read what plausible deniability is01:27
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teotwaki__fuck off you twat01:27
FIQ"you're dead, no loss for you"01:27
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FIQsounds positive eh01:27
FIQor not01:27
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teotwaki__I try to have an educated discussion with you, Estel_, and this is how you treat people? By patronising them on things they probably worked on during their masters?01:28
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Estel_teotwaki,  pathetic way to lose discussion by use chanop "quiet" :/ I'm dissapointed in you01:29
FIQthat's an interesting cloak01:29
Estel_bye, will return when you won't be drunk...01:29
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teotwaki__because anyone who doesn't agree with you is a drunk.01:30
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: futile, toldya01:30
teotwaki__"No, but you have to understand that abusing your operator powers by silencing people who disagree with you is wrong."01:30
FIQestel doesn't sound like a contributor but that might just be me01:30
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Estel_well, if you don't want to discuss ig with me, just stop. silencing or kickung via chanop is pathetic kindergarden01:31
DocScrutinizer05FIQ: I actually wondered where's that cloak from01:31
teotwaki__Estel_: and patronising people and acting like a dick isn't?01:31
FIQDocScrutinizer05: from council01:31
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FIQaccording to an old meeting01:31
FIQold council members got that cloak01:31
Estel_btw, plausible deniability is something different from steganography, and you could educate yourself, before attacking others. Some concepts shared, some different.01:31
DocScrutinizer05FIQ: nope, council cloak is council01:31
teotwaki__FIQ: i'd rather he has the contributor cloak than the council one which he abused for ages.01:31
FIQwhen they left01:31
Estel_teotwaki,  patronizing. said guy who stopped civilized discussion by logging to chanop?01:32
FIQDocScrutinizer05: yes but not when they left01:32
DocScrutinizer05I see01:32
Estel_I'm out, go and try "educated discussion" in real life01:32
teotwaki__Estel_: when did I say plausible deniability was the same as steganography, exactly?01:32
Estel_by jumping with punches and silencing others that doesn't share your point of view.01:32
teotwaki__I silenced you because you were a dick.01:32
Estel_we'll see where it leads you01:32
Estel_so enjoy yuor extended e-penis now, bye.01:33
FIQbye Estel_01:33
teotwaki__Estel_: my e-penis has been big and hard for ages, no need for you to increase its size, but thanks for lowering yourself to viagra.01:33
teotwaki__That feels better :)01:34
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teotwaki__sorry for flaming and trolling, by the way. I'm done.01:34
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DocScrutinizer05main problem are guys who *know* they're right, know it so certainly that they never even smell when somebody maybe has yet a better idea about that particular topic01:36
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, I was like that when I was 1601:36
DocScrutinizer05often leads to patronizing01:36
LinuxCodewith my first proper g/f, she put me right, quickly01:36
LinuxCodethen you feel dumb, and stop doing that01:37
kerioi bet she does, i bet she does01:37
LinuxCodebecause you realise you were a twat01:37
kerionudge nudge saynomore01:37
teotwaki__You had your first proper girlfriend at age 16?01:37
LinuxCodekerio, I am 34 now01:37
teotwaki__Dude, hand in your geek card.01:37
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, lol, when I say proper, I mean longer than 1 year01:37
DocScrutinizer05LinuxCode: what if everybody teling you that you're twat but you just don't listen?01:37
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, then it makes you look stupid01:38
teotwaki__You had a relationship that lasted over a year?01:38
LinuxCodevery stupid indeed01:38
kerioLinuxCode: we heard the first time, hand in your geek card01:38
teotwaki__stop lying! We all know humans who date for over a year don't know how to operate IRC, just Facebook.01:38
kerioand your n900 priviledges are revoked, go buy an iphone01:38
teotwaki__Or an S3, if you're feeling adventurous.01:39
kerioteotwaki__: and whatsapp!01:39
* LinuxCode throws up a little01:39
FIQS3 isn't that bad01:39
kerioteotwaki__: isn't the nexus4 about the same, but cheaper?01:39
teotwaki__kerio: actually, he's 34, so he probably has a decent job now...01:39
teotwaki__kerio: yeah, but you can't get one xD01:40
LinuxCodeso..... now you all made fun of me.... how do I tell apt not to bitch about this expired key crap01:40
kerioapt won't bitch about the expired key01:40
LinuxCodeit bitches about hash sums, and mentions the expired key01:40
kerioyou'll sometimes get a "install these packages without verification?"01:40
keriohash sum mismatch is a critical error01:40
LinuxCodekerio, ok, so is this something local I can fix01:41
kerio'this glass is empty, how do i drink water from it anyway?'01:41
LinuxCodeit is only with extras-devel01:41
kerioLinuxCode: use a mirror01:41
teotwaki__best comment on slashdot this week, a guy trying to explain Steve Jobs is dead:
keriofor instance, extras-devel-light01:42
teotwaki__"Steve is in the iCloud now. Someone tried turning him off and then back on again. In an appeal to hipsters, he's gone underground to sell more macs. He is permanently 404. There is no way he could have had anything to say about this. There is no app for that. Get it?"01:42
keriodeb fremantle free non-free01:42
LinuxCodethank you01:42
kerioit's a really nice mirror, supports pdiffs, only lists the latest versions, and doesn't afraid of anything01:43
teotwaki__grammar error01:43
LinuxCodeso is this a direct copy of extra-devel, but just works ?01:43
* DocScrutinizer05 just noticed that you probably can detect such an individual (twat, partonizing, overly self esteem type) by *none* of their statements about factoids they think to know about ever gets qualified by them adding link a sounrce of info, or by a "probably", "iirc" or similar indication that they might be wrong on this one01:43
kerioFIQ: incremental changes in Packages01:44
kerioso you don't end up downloading the whole 9mb on each update01:44
FIQyeah I understand, but...01:44
teotwaki__DocScrutinizer05: don't know if that one is for me as well, but I've learned a long time ago, especially when talking about bugs or deliveries, to speak in the conditional tense, and say "we" instead of "I".01:44
FIQdoesn't that mean it has to keep a diff of every single version?01:45
kerioFIQ: the repository does01:45
keriobut no01:45
teotwaki__when the CRM dude asks an update: "We have not been able to reproduce this problem, however, it would appear to be related to..."01:45
keriojust from a version to the next01:45
FIQand if I have a really old version?01:46
teotwaki__or for deliveries, "As planned, we should be able to provide you with..."01:46
kerioFIQ: then apt will download the whole file01:46
FIQmakes sense01:46
kerioand from then on, partials :)01:46
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teotwaki__or simply when they're being idiots, "Being relatively swamped with work, I shall attempt to provide you with an answer within the new 24 hours."01:46
FIQso it basically use pdiff if the version I had in question was archived01:47
FIQand a diff can be made of it01:47
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: wasn't specifically for you01:47
teotwaki__which can be explained, later on, as "I only promised to try and get back to you within the next 3 business days."01:47
teotwaki__24 hours, 3 business days, getit? :P01:47
kerioFIQ: much easier, it stores the diffs01:48
Estel_FIQ, despite you don't see me as contributor, I've promised you a link to truecrypt on Maemo:01:48
keriorepos are static, in nature01:48
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  what was syntax for factoids only applicable to #maemo?01:48
keriowhenever the maintainer changes something, files are created/added01:48
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Estel_I wouldn't want every infobot user tog et redirected to tmo thread when asking about truecrypt, ya know01:49
teotwaki__this should answer your question01:49
infobotVous pouvez obtenir de l'aide sur Debian sur le canal #debian-fr - For help in french, please join #debian-fr01:49
DocScrutinizer05<#channel> factoid-key01:49
FIQohhh so you're given a contributor cloak when you release a devel package? interesting01:49
teotwaki__FIQ: no, you're given a cloak when you ask for it01:50
DocScrutinizer05hehe, yes01:50
FIQteotwaki__: I see01:50
teotwaki__FIQ: you want one?01:50
FIQI guess you have to have some kind of reason though01:50
* kerio felt special :(01:50
Estel_~#maemo truecrypt is
infobotokay, Estel_01:51
FIQteotwaki__: well I don't think I've done significant contributions to the community besides minor help in tmo01:51
infobotmethinks truecrypt is
Estel_well, seriously, I never asked for contributor cloak01:51
Estel_it isn't provided when you release a package01:51
Estel_I have no idea who gave it to me and when, and I don't care either - still, it's nice to know that someone respect my small and humble contributions01:52
FIQspeaking of contributions01:52
FIQshould try and get an overview of maemo stuff that could benefit from being localized01:53
FIQ"maemo stuff" aka things provided by CSSU01:53
Palifreemangordon, that special nolo is completly different as nolo in PR.1.3 FW01:54
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FIQand untranslated things in core maemo (mostly terminal applications)01:54
PaliI have diff between two objdump01:54
Estel_and teotwaki, frankly, I shouldn't ever bother talking to you, but... You know, I've fought for freedom of my country at not-so-long-ago times, when you were put in prison for it. I'm really not one, who will get "terrorized" by some random, pathetic dude, talking about dicks and just happening to have chanop here. I thought you were partner for educated discussion, when you pinged me about my discussion with someone else, re encryption.01:54
Estel_I was wrong, it seems, as you turned out to be regular dickhead01:54
Skryteotwaki__: I want one if it's that easy01:54
Estel_in real world, we call those people bandits01:54
teotwaki__I went to prison? That's news to me.01:55
Estel_here, call yourself whatever you want, and still pretend that you're better due to your master degree or whatever, even if yo7're just talking BS and ending discussion in disgracing way of logging to chanop operator status01:55
Estel_well, you may re read it without being drunk.01:55
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Estel_or not01:55
* kerio braces01:55
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* kerio unbraces01:56
Estel_in fact, it's quite end of topic for me01:56
DocScrutinizer05then shut up NOW01:56
* Estel_ shrugs01:56
teotwaki__Estel_: that's nice. Have a great evening.01:57
teotwaki__DocScrutinizer05: do you remember who the Group Contact is for Maemo?01:57
Estel_same to you :) everyone loves happy endings.01:57
FIQDocScrutinizer05: just wondering, were red pill settings window available in non-cssu maemo?01:57
DocScrutinizer05FIQ: if you enable it01:58
infobotrumour has it, redpill is
teotwaki__well, apparently he is the person who assigns cloaks.01:58
kerioFIQ: in the latest couple of versions you can only enable it by editing the config file01:58
teotwaki__But I thought X-Fade completely stopped services for #maemo?01:58
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: yes, and last such session been on a request by me01:58
FIQkerio: yea but I wondered if settings was added by cssu01:58
PaliDocScrutinizer05, when will be autobuilder working?01:58
FIQas it's not localized at all01:58
DocScrutinizer05when X-Fade fixed it, Pali01:59
FIQunlike *everything else* in non-cssu maemo UI01:59
kerioFIQ: it wasn't added by cssu afaik01:59
kerioit's just... hidden01:59
FIQthat might explain it not being localized01:59
teotwaki__We should make a list of people who need a cloak02:01
teotwaki__and send it to X-Fade by email.02:01
teotwaki__but seriously, I went to prison? Fucking A!02:01
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: we/I did that just ~8 weeks ago02:02
teotwaki__DocScrutinizer05: well, then you forgot FIQ!02:02
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: I also had trouble to parse that statement with prison. I think that "you were" was an "I could"02:02
DocScrutinizer05(FIQ) he didn't ask for a cloak02:03
teotwaki__He's being humble.02:03
DocScrutinizer05or he did ask but didn't fulfill the requirements to grant it02:03
DocScrutinizer05there are02:04
teotwaki__There's requirements on a cosmetic icon?02:04
DocScrutinizer05defined on wiki somewhere02:04
FIQ[01:03:57] <DocScrutinizer05> or he did ask but didn't fulfill the requirements to grant it02:04
FIQI did? :o02:04
DocScrutinizer05I don't know02:04
teotwaki__no wonder Nokia went down hill, so much bureaucracy even the FOSS Communities they inspired were riddled with it.02:04
DocScrutinizer05I said *or*02:04
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FIQoh right02:05
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki__: I think it's just a recommendation02:05
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DocScrutinizer05to give council a means to say "no"02:06
linuxman44wtf is this channel about?02:06
DocScrutinizer05wtf is /topic meant for?02:06
FIQthis channel is about the operating system maemo02:06
FIQwhich I thought was obvious02:06
FIQas it's written in topic, kinda :P02:07
linuxman44i think that has been mispelled02:07
teotwaki__linuxman44: did you come here from #freenode?02:08
DocScrutinizer05incredible, >>Registered : Jan 26 03:44:22 2013 (1 week, 1 day, 20:23:43 ago)<< and already a cloak02:09
DocScrutinizer05aah sorry02:09
DocScrutinizer05User reg.  : Feb 29 01:40:39 2012 (48 weeks, 4 days, 22:27:26 ago)02:09
linuxman44the topic should be changed02:10
DocScrutinizer05suggestions please!02:11
linuxman44not maeamo02:11
teotwaki__not sure if troll or just really stupid02:11
FIQare you are troll or just not informed?02:11
bef0rdhe goes to harmattan and ask the same02:11
FIQs/you are/you a/02:11
DocScrutinizer05indeed, or was that meant to be funny?02:11
infobotFIQ meant: are you a troll or just not informed?02:11
bef0rdI would say troll02:11
LinuxCodethat ident rings a bell02:12
DocScrutinizer05i'd say bot02:12
LinuxCodeI think we banned him in Fedora before02:12
LinuxCodea few months back02:12
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FIQyou can always check :P02:12
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gry"are you a troll or just not informed?" "or both?"02:13
teotwaki__Blargh, they don't make them as they used to02:13
LinuxCode[20:36] <linuxman> im ddosing fedora website02:14
teotwaki__Good trawls made you sweat and shed tears before you realised you'd been had.02:14
LinuxCodethe troll02:14
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Estel_Pali,  where one can find all most up-to-date bme replacement bits you've made?02:14
LinuxCodehe cam in and claimed one of our contributors had died02:14
Estel_as per "user installablen02:15
Estel_not source code02:15
teotwaki__now we just get germans who scream "AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM" and "DRUNK DRUNK", and trolls that sound like poorly written jokes, a bit as if Joe Pasquale came 'round.02:15
FIQLinuxCode: then the contributor proceed to join? :P02:15
LinuxCodeFIQ, eventually yes02:15
FIQgg troll02:15
LinuxCodeI had a freenode admin chase him around02:15
LinuxCodeall day02:15
LinuxCodebanning him every chan he joined02:15
teotwaki__I remember one guy on #boost02:16
teotwaki__who would PM people at random02:16
teotwaki__send them links to chicks' facebook pages and pictures02:16
teotwaki__and ask if they thought her hot, then claim he went to school with, that they were sluts, and they should convert to $religion.02:16
PaliEstel_, on: and
FIQnow that's an interesting way of trolling02:17
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  I don't belive you're so bad with english as you oretend to be. Sentence "I did smth in times, where you went in prison for doing that" is quite easy to parse ;)02:17
Estel_or my english started to suck?02:17
teotwaki__it always sucked.02:17
Estel_well, thats true too!02:17
teotwaki__He thought it was a lot less funny when I rang up the IT department of his university (not that I ever did, but the troll got trolled)02:18
Estel_anyway, if you still talk about it - it was just about "when one were sent to prison for doing so"02:18
teotwaki__"was sent"02:18
teotwaki__were == plural.02:18
teotwaki__well, not quite.02:19
Estel_right. My bad02:19
Estel_or not02:19
Estel_i think you got the message pretty well02:19
Estel_if not, well...02:19
Estel_Pali, thanks02:19
teotwaki__I didn't understand a word, which is why I replied "that's nice".02:19
Estel_no problem. In simpler words, I mean that some random funny guy with ego problems won't impress me by going berseker and logging into chanop, abusing virtual "strenght" to silence one, when discussions goes badly, as I've meet and fought such nadit behavior in real life02:21
Estel_which make you really, really pathetic in my eyes02:21
Estel_I hope that message went correct way, this time02:21
teotwaki__cool, cool-cool-cool.02:21
Estel_I'm really to tired for clowns, though. Feel free to kick me from channel, anyone02:22
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: I told you to shut up02:23
GeneralAntillesWho's having fun? Are you guys having fun?02:23
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DocScrutinizer05Estel_: that's 2nd warning on a new case now02:24
Estel_moo, GeneralAntilles02:24
DocScrutinizer05the threat about instant ban as of a few days ago stays unaffected02:24
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: yaaaay02:24
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: sup buddy?02:24
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: can I just say something?02:25
Estel_nice to see you after so much time :)02:25
GeneralAntillesI'm watching the Superbowl. :|02:25
GeneralAntillesNo. Shush.02:25
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: your state produces a big pile of shit tv shows.02:25
GeneralAntillesMy state?02:25
GeneralAntillesI don't think my state produces any TV shows02:25
GeneralAntillesthat I know of, anyway.02:25
GeneralAntillesI mean, a lot of Cops is probably filmed down here02:25
GeneralAntillesbut that just because every felon and escaped convict in the south runs to Florida.02:26
GeneralAntillesYou can't die of exposure here.02:26
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teotwaki__Python Hunters, Billy the Exterminator (actually, that may be Louisiana, but same hick kind of show)02:26
Estel_Pali,  you have writtern all of those parts? I feel ashamed of not being able to write that proposition wiki page today02:27
teotwaki__I mean, we even get that shit on French TV, seriously.02:27
Estel_your productivity amazes me02:27
GeneralAntillesPython Hunters sounds really stupid.02:27
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Estel_(parts as in all those things that communicate with bits relying on bme, that *many* have said to be impossible to re-create, feasibly)02:28
teotwaki__Well, basically, it's just a bunch of dudes driving boats in the everglades, smashing through bushes and yelling "SNAKE!" "Is it a python?" "No."02:28
GeneralAntillesAre they state/federal officers?02:28
teotwaki__And the only pythons they find either have a bullet in their head, or have been run over.02:29
PaliEstel_, kernel drivers are written by me, hald-addon-bme was by freemangordon, libbmeipc was taken meego (which is open) and patched for our kernel drivers02:29
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: nha, just some random joes as far as I can tell02:29
GeneralAntillesSounds excruciating. Why are you watching it? :P02:29
Estel_still, it's outstanding work. May I ask about caveats, as I underastand it, it isn't finished and don't mimic everything yet?02:29
Estel_what doesn't work currently, as compared to closed bme?02:29
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: no superball.02:30
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Estel_BTW, I wonder about feasibility of shutting device down if voltage is < 3000mV for 15 seconds straight, instead of 2800 mv, like now (in replacement)02:30
Estel_or, even better, making treeshold user-configurable02:31
teotwaki__Do they call it a superbowl, because that's the size of bucket people in front of the telly use to store booze, popcorn or other things they might consume during ad-riddled games?02:31
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: you bastard, you so pre-empted me.02:31
Estel_Pali,  basically, any thing like "if more than x seconds" is feasible?02:31
Estel_or would increase battery usage due to polling?02:31
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: hi mister CO02:31
GeneralAntillesPost-season college football games are called bowl games.02:31
GeneralAntillesIt's derived from that.02:31
Estel_I mean, it must be some straight-now value, or we may use more complicated method?02:32
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, howdy.02:32
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GeneralAntillesI don't feel any stronger.02:32
jonwilI want to know why they call it football when most of the time you never even use your feet to interact with the ball...02:32
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: so it's post-season?02:32
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: and only super colleges can participate?02:32
GeneralAntillesteotwaki__, I'll go with that, sure.02:32
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: you're so regretting saying a single line in the channel, right now, aren't ya?02:33
Estel_jonwil,  because game where you use foot is called soccer there? :P02:33
Estel_patents, patents!02:33
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GeneralAntillesteotwaki__, I'm very bored. :P02:34
GeneralAntillesAlcohol isn't an option.02:34
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: who's playing?02:34
teotwaki__Alcohol is always an option.02:34
GeneralAntilles49er's and Ravens02:34
Estel_btw, today brazillian judge denied apple right to call their products "iPhone" in brazil02:34
teotwaki__Unless you're considering refreshments at an AA meeting. Then alcohol isn't an option.02:34
Estel_due to someone registering iPhone name in 2000 in Brazil02:34
DocScrutinizer05  <-linuxman troll in /query (not really funny)02:34
Estel_with apple trying to do the same 6 years later02:34
LinuxCodeDocScrutinizer05, top tip, leave ban in place for 4 months02:35
Estel_revenge on/of patent trolls? New SW episode by disney02:35
GeneralAntillesteotwaki__, no alcohol for me. :[02:36
Estel_I doubt any troll uses static IP02:36
Estel_not to mention proxies02:36
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teotwaki__we didn't ban his IP.02:36
Estel_he uses same registered nick? 0_o02:36
LinuxCodeEstel_, he does02:36
LinuxCodewell ident02:36
teotwaki__he's not the sharpest cookie02:36
Estel_well, people never stop to amaze you.02:36
LinuxCodebut always linuxman linuxman*02:37
FIQhe's an idiot02:37
FIQin other words02:37
FIQeven to the trolls02:37
Estel_poor sob, so many other things to do in life...02:37
teotwaki__A bit like some german guy creating puppet accounts on tmo02:37
LinuxCodewhat else would you expect from a troll02:37
Estel_well, as for tmo trolls, anyone noticed guy called "Piotr"? seems like retard trolling on purpose02:37
FIQLinuxCode: well at least some try to ban evade02:37
FIQas that's typical troll acting02:38
Estel_btw it's "Peter" in polish language02:38
LinuxCodeFIQ, for this imbecile, that is even too much effort02:38
FIQno loss I guess :P02:38
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: whatchabeenupto?02:38
LinuxCodeI guess, if you go into freenode asking for a cloak every 5 mins02:38
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: do you have a gun?02:38
LinuxCodea permanent ban, will come quicker than you could cough02:38
teotwaki__GeneralAntilles: there's some company in downtown miami causing us a lot of grief, mind shooting them? It's just a bunch of lowlife french criminals trying to live the american dream, nothing too bad.02:39
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, I would be careful with suck requests lol, with all those "thought crimes" aka conspiracy to commit... , in the US02:40
teotwaki__LinuxCode: I'm not in the US, only GeneralAntilles can get in trouble ;)02:40
Estel_BTW I mentioned that guy on TMO due to strange fact - registered in 2010, most posts in last few days02:40
Estel_looks like someone's sub-account02:41
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, ohh dont you worry, they extradite people for less02:41
LinuxCodeteotwaki__, like the UK student, for running a torrent site here, which is not a crime here02:41
teotwaki__Yeah, I'm not too worried, I've got three passports. Just that will take the french administrations two years to figure out who to arrest.02:41
LinuxCodekerio, thank you for that mirror02:42
LinuxCodeit doesnt have the hash sums issue, and is quite fast too02:42
LinuxCodemuch appreciated02:42
Estel_you can always rape a young girl too, french goverment will surely give you sanctuary rights02:42
Estel_ask Polansky02:42
Estel_he will confirm02:42
jacekowskishe was willing02:44
Estel_I know, just pulling his leg02:45
Estel_in fact this whole thing with polansky was quite pathetic from us side, but, anyway02:45
Estel_power complex couldn't stand anyone running from iron hand of justice, even if he actually was right02:46
GeneralAntillesteotwaki__, why do you ask?02:46
Estel_jacekowski,  still, I'm not sure if pedophile is much better than rapist02:47
MrPinguSo we can conclude it's both bad ;)02:48
MrPinguNow, women pedophiles are becoming more common, here in the netherlands :o02:51
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Estel_Pali,  which units bq27x00 reports time to empty in?02:58
Estel_reading from i2c and from /sys/class/power_supply/bq27x00_battery/time_to_empty_avg I get different reults02:58
Estel_if it's in seconds02:58
Estel_and not different by small factor02:58
Estel_but like 333 minutes vs 400 minutes02:59
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Estel_if it's in minuts*100, difference is even greater03:00
PaliEstel_, time values are in seconds03:02
Palicheck if time%60 == 003:02
Palibecause bq chip reporting time values in minutes03:03
Estel_mhm, that's why i calculated in in public here via /6003:04
Estel_as per specification you've linked me to03:04
Estel_I'm just curious why it produces so different values... lemme check smth03:04
Estel_well, maybe it's measurement moment difference, after all...03:06
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Palinow I found that NOLO can send string error messages via usb to flasher03:34
Paliharmattan flasher using it, but fremantle not03:35
Palimaybe I will implement it in 0xFFFF03:35
Palin900 NOLO sending that error strings03:35
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Estel_Pali,  would be nice03:48
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Estel_damo22,  you want to search repos for qtmobilehotspot03:49
Estel_as mobilehotspot is earlier, buggy implementation03:49
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Estel_qtmobilehotspot is based on mobilehotspot and carried concept to usable state03:49
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damo22i cant find qt versoin in stable repo03:54
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Estel_damo22,  it may be in devel04:28
Estel_many stable things are in devel, sadly04:28
Estel_erm, who remember how mili-thing/1000 is called?04:28
* Estel_ is writing comments for almost-finished new version of bnf04:29
Estel_micro, it seems04:31
MentalistTraceurOff the top of my head, micro.04:31
MentalistTraceurOh, beat me to it.04:31
Estel_oh, hello MentalistTraceur04:32
Estel_wouldn't ever expect to meet you here outside CM, even less at thi hour04:32
infobotEstel_ meant: wouldn't ever expect to meet you here outside CM, even less at this hour04:32
Estel_How is it in the "big politic"? ;)04:33
MentalistTraceurYeah, I said I'd try to get on IRC more often.04:34
MentalistTraceurIt's like the only place you end up with live updates if shit hits the fan, plus the most active council member and all the volunteers who do infra maintenance are largely on here.04:36
Estel_maybe you just need a irc bouncer? or not, as it would mean reading through 1000 lines daily, filtering out important discussions out of noise04:36
Estel_irc is great for latest and greatest, but also, extremely noisy04:37
Estel_and when I'm here it's even more noisy than usual :P04:37
MentalistTraceurAs for "this hour", it's only 21:40 here.04:38
MentalistTraceurUsually I stay up way later.04:38
MentalistTraceurGranted, today I am actually expetionally in need of sleep.04:38
Estel_so have a nice night :)04:39
MentalistTraceurI'm not getting off yet - going afk for about 30 minutes though.04:39
Estel_btw in case you need a irc bouncer, you always have a free slot on mine ;)04:39
MentalistTraceurThanks for the offer, I'll take you up on it if I end up feeling the need for one.04:40
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Estel_erm, do we have something like "depends on A *or* B"?05:41
Estel_bnf would now depend on *either* ic2-tools *and/or* feature bq27x00 module05:42
Estel_no idea how to set such dependency, though05:42
Estel_of course I could bump ic2-tool to provide some feature like bq27x00-chip-info, and ask Pali to make kernel-power provide the same, then, make bnf depend on it...05:43
Estel_still, it sounds silly05:43
MentalistTraceurI've only ever seen optional dependency on A or B being done with virtual packages, as your bq27x00-chip-info example.05:49
MentalistTraceurBut I don't know for sure.05:50
Estel_googled already, haven't found straightforward solution... Thanks for checking it, too05:51
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MentalistTraceurEstel_: What about syntax like this: 'Depends: foo | bar'06:05
MentalistTraceurI see some examples like that @
MentalistTraceurbut I'm not sure if I'm misreading it.06:06
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Estel_thanks, I'll check it06:47
Estel_MentalistTraceur,  I just vaguely remember, that this syntax wasn't working for our apt, but I may remember it wrong, or it might have been fud06:47
infobothmm... bnf is Backus Naur Form, a language for creating definitions for computer languages and other command sets.  See the Jargon File for a good description of how it works.06:47
infoboti guess bnf is Backus Naur Form, a language for creating definitions for computer languages and other command sets.  See the Jargon File for a good description of how it works.06:48
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Estel_infobot, no, #maemo bnf is
infobotEstel_: okay06:49
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, bnf is
Estel_infobot, bnf is also Backus Naur Form, a language for creating definitions for computer languages and other command sets.  See the Jargon File for a good description of how it works.06:50
infobotEstel_: i already had it that way06:50
infobotEstel_: bitte06:50
Estel_anyway, new version of ~bnf got released06:50
Estel_happy bnf'ing!06:50
Estel_more proper release (package) if/when autobuilder and repos start working properly06:51
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, truecrypt is
Estel_~mugen-cover-mod is
infobotokay, Estel_06:53
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Estel_good night, it's 6AM here07:01
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damo22if i find the deb in devel, can i just scp it to my n900 and dpkg -i it?08:07
damo22or is that not recommended08:07
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Estel_kerio,  there is something wrong with your reiplementation of battery applet08:10
Estel_while it shows capacity from bq, it still seems to compare against design/capacity08:10
Estel_so, when my 2635 mAh battery is charged to 1251, it shows 47% charged, yet, full green battery icon08:11
Estel_and on every plug disconnect, even shows "battery charged" banner08:11
Estel_of course, when plugged, it charges OK, despite banner message08:12
Estel_(I'm on Pali's bme replacement bits already)08:12
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damo22 any ideas?08:38
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thedead1440damo22: is the .deb corrupted?09:49
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damo22thedead1440: i dont know, is there a md5sum built in?09:59
damo22one benefit of RPM over DEB i guess10:00
damo22i enabled extras-devel as well as extras is that bad?10:01
damo22i think the deb i downloaded manually is dogpoo10:01
thedead1440the md5sum: 122e064408e3b0060dce987a9b5e7b4010:02
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kerioEstel_: i suppose that it would be better to use the bq27k percentual too10:08
kerioor possibly the bars10:08
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keriodamo22: extras-devel is a superset of extras10:10
kerioit's not harmful to keep both enabled, it's just useless10:10
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damo22kerio: that is good to know10:17
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kerioEstel_: would you be content with something that only uses bq and nothing else?10:28
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ecc2gi'm still kind of shocked that the n900 eats battery significantly faster than my 5230 nuron... (the n900 commandeered the nuron's bl5j...)10:36
jonwilBear in mind that the 5230 is a much simpler phone10:38
ecc2gthe bl5j is old so I don't expect long life but going a few days without using/charging isn't happening10:38
jonwilwhich doesn't run anywhere near as much stuff10:38
ecc2git is indeed... just shocked how much more this uses...10:39
kerioecc2g: with the screen on, it uses about 180mA10:41
kerioeven with a kickass battery, you've only got 7 hours with the screen on, pretty much10:42
ecc2gI probably should get another cell.  I stole the stock nokia branded and a japod from my nuron.10:43
ecc2gwhat's the 180mA breakdown like? I hope it isn't mostly the backlight...10:46
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ecc2gthe transflective display is nice, probably contributes to backlight power...10:47
ecc2gstupid nuron completely washes out in sunlight10:48
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kerioecc2g: 7mA for cell, 170 for backlight?10:53
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kerioEstel_: got a deb for you11:09
keriosource at
kerioseems to work, bq27x00 is the only source of data now11:11
kerioand it'll fail horrendously if it's not calibrated11:11
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vi____1hey kerio11:24
vi____1did you calibrate that orange battery?11:25
kerioyou betrayed me11:25
vi____1they why the F does my one say 1600?11:25
keriohow the F did you calibrate it?11:25
vi____1bq27x00 script11:25
kerioyou're supposed to use constant-ish discharge when calibrating11:25
vi____1well fuck.11:26
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vi____1I calibrated by leaving internet streaming radio playing with the screen on max brightness.11:27
vi____1that is about as constant as you can get.11:27
kerioalso oh, it was a higher load than me11:28
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kerioanyway, use a calibration script, calibrate overnight and a constant load11:31
keriolike, just the backlight11:31
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fastaHow does warranty work with mobile phones?11:55
fastaThe N900 is full of bugs.11:56
fastaNokia said they won't fix it.11:56
fastaCan they just do that?11:56
fastaIMHO, they created a research product, which shouldn't have been distributed to consumers.11:56
ShadowXmm. they can :S11:57
fastaPerhaps all the manufacturers do the same thing.11:57
fastaWhat are you buying when you buy a piece of electronics then?11:57
ShadowXIts a war to make them fix the expired cert....what about fixing other things11:57
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fastaBecause, if they can, what stops them from just bricking the device one day after warranty?11:58
fastaThey could just say it was a 'mistake'.11:58
ShadowXThe best thing nokia can do (witch i doubt they'll do ) is to relase the control over maemo to the community .11:59
ShadowXbtw are u using CSSU ?11:59
fastaI am.11:59
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ShadowXWhat issues do you have with the phone?11:59
fastaBut still, I consider that I have to use CSSU a failure on Nokia's part.11:59
fastaShadowX: I wanted to have Cell Broadcast working.12:00
ShadowXExcept the hildon lagging quite a lot after few days of work, i'm pretty happy with it.12:00
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ShadowXI think N900 is the least of their problems atm ..they don't even care about it :)12:01
fastaShadowX: if an asteroid is going to destroy my area in 30 minutes, and I am working, I will be the only one who is going to be incinerated.12:01
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fastaShadowX: a Nokia 3210 did support this feature.12:01
fastaShadowX: the N900 also has it, (and someone patched the binary already).12:02
jacekowskifasta: what sort of bugs?12:02
ShadowXi dont see how can you put n900 next to 3210 ....12:02
povbotBug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available12:02
jacekowskithat's not a bug12:03
fastajacekowski: yes, it is.12:03
jacekowskithat's unsupported feature12:03
fastajacekowski: the code is there and it doesn't work.12:03
jacekowskiandroid phones have no CB support as well12:03
fastaPerhaps this is a part of evolution where smartphone owners are supposed to die before the others.12:03
fasta"We exterminate all our users. It's part of our new business strategy. " -- Nokia & Android sellers12:04
jacekowskiCB is one of those useless features that nobody really supports12:05
jacekowskinot many carriers send CB messages12:05
fastajacekowski: lots of countries use them for emergency features.12:05
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ShadowJKIt's like 3GPP videocalls, instant messaging, video/image sharing and VoIP.. There's no widespread usage of any of them, but there's always like one random operator/country where they're used :/12:08
fastaIt would make great marketing material for someone who does support it.12:08
ShadowJKvoip or "walkie talkie mode"12:09
ShadowJKthat was supported here :P12:09
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jacekowskifasta: not really12:15
jacekowskifasta: you may just as well send normal text message to everyone12:15
jacekowskior the one that just pops up on the screen instantly12:15
jacekowskiCB has to be configured on the device12:16
fastajacekowski: no, because that require a user to be registered to a cell tower.12:16
jacekowskiCB requires user to be subscribed to specific channels12:16
fastajacekowski: and you have to know who is in the given area.12:16
jacekowskiCB does the same12:17
fastajacekowski: knowing who is in a given area has privacy problems and data storage problems.12:17
jacekowskias in, phone will not recieve message if it's not subscribed12:17
jacekowskibecause it will not listen for them12:17
jacekowskiso it's from different side, but effect is the same12:17
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jacekowskifasta: they do know where everyone is12:18
jacekowskifasta: they have to store that and be able to look it up quickly so they know where to send calls for you12:18
fastajacekowski: yes, but to send a CB you don't need position.12:18
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jacekowskiyes, but tower knows all registered users anyways12:19
jacekowskiso you send message to the tower and that then sends it to all registered handsets12:20
jacekowskisame effect12:20
DocScrutinizer05sorry for delayed FW reboot. I improved my WD script now, hope this will trigger more early from now on12:21
juozapaswhere i can find openntp settings?12:21
fastajacekowski: how does the tower know that some client of a competing company is in his area?12:21
jacekowskifasta: it doesn't12:21
jacekowskifasta: but phone will not recieve that message anyways12:21
jacekowskifasta: phone only listens to CB from tower it's registered to12:21
fastajacekowski: are you saying that CB is provider specific?12:21
fastajacekowski: that's a rather broken idea.12:22
fastajacekowski: who comes up with such bad ideas?12:22
jacekowskithat's why i'm saying, CB has no benefit over sending same text to multiple users12:22
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jacekowskilower bandwidth12:22
fastajacekowski: but if the SMS network is crowded, isn't there some problem?12:23
jacekowskiyes and no, if it's emergency message it will get prioritised anyways12:23
jacekowskiso that's not a problem12:23
fastajacekowski: ok, I think I get it.12:23
DocScrutinizer05our top download IP on rmo leeching with a awesome 459kBps12:24
fastaFirst CB was created for some unreleated applicatio, then some government thought it was a good idea to use it for ER (which it isn't), and now I have a problem.12:24
fastaWhat should have happened, was the government creating a special standard for ER which was independent of the provider.12:25
jacekowskiextremly power inefficient12:25
jacekowskiand impossible to implement in a phone12:25
jacekowskiunless you want to go back to brick sized phones12:25
fastajacekowski: the problem being that listening forever takes a lot of energy?12:26
jacekowskiphone can only listen on one channel at any given time12:26
jacekowskiie. channel of the tower it's registered to12:26
fastajacekowski: can't it just connect to a circuit which is powered by the signal?12:26
fastajacekowski: so, when a very high energy signal comes in, it's provides power for the logic to process it?12:26
DocScrutinizer05I'd be tempted to kill such leecher connections12:26
kerioDocScrutinizer05: who is it?12:27
jacekowskifasta: brick size12:27
jonwilMy carrier sends CBSMS to my phone12:27
DocScrutinizer05probably we should do SPI and reject everything that has no valid maemo apt browser ID12:27
fastajacekowski: is there some proof of that?12:27
jonwilalthough only for cell tower names12:27
kerioDocScrutinizer05: holy shit rmo is blazing fast12:27
keriodid warfare do something?12:27
jacekowskifasta: that sort of hardware has been in use 50 years ago12:27
DocScrutinizer05not that I'd know of12:27
DocScrutinizer05well, we probably did some throttling12:27
kerioDocScrutinizer05: srsly, it's... responsive, at least12:27
kerioi'm not sure about fast12:27
jacekowskifasta: radio recievers powered by radio waves12:28
jacekowskifasta: but those required 100m long aerials to operate12:28
fastajacekowski: where do you learn this stuff?12:28
jacekowskifasta: and transmitters that were 100x as powerfull as GSM12:28
warfarekerio: less clients updating things.12:28
jacekowskifasta: wikipiedia12:28
keriowarfare: so... thanks for nothing! :D12:28
fastajacekowski: not part of standard EE university curriculum?12:28
DocScrutinizer05root@stage:~# netstat -tn|wc -l12:28
keriowhat's the current throughput?12:28
warfarekerio: still 25 mbps.12:29
DocScrutinizer05same as it ever was12:29
kerio(and we should still implement some sort of CDN)12:29
jacekowskifasta: nope12:29
jacekowskifasta: but the thing is, it had circuitry tuned to specific frequency12:30
keriojacekowski: well, can it be physically adjusted in a simple way?12:30
fastaI do find it cool that almost every crazy idea I come up with has been thought of already.12:30
jacekowskibut it's still one frequency12:30
keriolike, a slider or a dial12:30
keriooh, of course12:30
DocScrutinizer05do you know the most simple spy bug? two wires with a charcoal grain telephone mic in the middle12:31
keriofasta: and someone already said that :D12:31
jacekowskiso you can't do it between towers12:31
jacekowskiunless in emergency every tower would transmit on same frequency12:31
jacekowskibut then you have intereference problem12:31
fastakerio: you mean what I just said? :)12:31
kerioPali: the battery applet code is somewhat of a mess :S12:32
fastaI think it is extremely hard to actually know what the rest of the world has already done at this point.12:32
jacekowskiso doing emergency broadcasts is hard12:32
fastaI.e., knowing of all the patents in existence.12:32
DocScrutinizer05(rmo) well I asked teotwaki to stop mirroring, might actually have helped12:32
fasta(and some things which are likely trade secrets)12:32
kerioPali: also, what's with bme_running and the fact that it's only set for one cycle?12:32
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fastaDocScrutinizer05: don't you also need a battery for that?12:33
DocScrutinizer05now blacklist that leecher on and get another 500kBps bandwidth ;-D12:33
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: so you only have 25MBps?12:34
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DocScrutinizer05fasta: no, two wires and a passive microphone built from charcoal12:34
fastaDocScrutinizer05: and what kind of equipment do you need to receive that?12:34
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: yep, seems so12:34
keriofasta: something with power, i assume :)12:34
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: i can do some reverse proxying and stuff if you are interested12:34
jacekowskii've got gigabit of bandwidth12:34
DocScrutinizer05fasta: a strong transmitter with directional antenna, and a RX with directional antenna12:34
keriojacekowski: warfare said he has a server too12:34
keriothe problem is that the n900's apt doesn't do redirects12:35
warfarejacekowski: how much traffic do you have? ;)12:35
kerioso we'd have to change the dns records, but the dns records are still controlled by nokia12:35
fastaDocScrutinizer05: are you a consultant to spy agencies? :)12:35
DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: the problem is we don't have any control over DNS yet12:35
kerioDocScrutinizer05: what do you have to transmit?12:35
DocScrutinizer05fasta: yes12:35
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: that's not helping for sure12:35
DocScrutinizer05kerio: a carrier, nothing else12:36
fastaDocScrutinizer05: yeah, the problem is that you probably wouldn't be allowed to say it if you were.12:36
kerioDocScrutinizer05: has board given an ETA for the domain ownership transfer?12:36
DocScrutinizer05the two wires will tune on it by length, and the mic AM modulates it12:36
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keriohas board given an ETA for anything?12:36
ShadowJKjacekowski, maybe teotwaki could mirror from you though.. and maybe rmo could have rsync service so that you could get new stuff efficienctly12:36
fastaDocScrutinizer05: is there some book which describes this in tutorial fashion?12:36
keriofasta: since he said "yes", then he's not a consultant for a spy agency12:37
keriounless that's what he wants you to believe12:37
DocScrutinizer05err yes, Nokia sponsoring ending Feb12:37
DocScrutinizer05end of12:37
DocScrutinizer05is an ETA board has conbfirmed lately12:37
kerioDocScrutinizer05: clearly, they can't keep sponsoring our dns :P12:37
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vi____1Is there any way you could trick some low level chump into giving you access to the fremantle closed bits?12:38
chem|stShadowJK: thanks that someone else brings rsync in again12:38
keriovi____1: the password is swordfish12:38
vi____1did u hack that on a gameboy?12:39
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kerioi wrote a GUI in visual basic for it12:39
fastaPS3 from Iran.12:39
fastaIt comes with a monkey these days.12:40
ShadowJKchem|st, i dont think we can convince people to not try to sync and mirror, so we might as well give them efficient access..12:40
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fastaThere is a wrong monkey on the box sometimes, though.12:40
vi____1I maekd a .bat virus to get the c0des from a injection worm lizard ppl 9/11 was a hologram.12:40
fastaShadowX:  ++12:40
chem|stShadowJK: what I said...12:40
fastaJust put up a daily torrent.12:41
ShadowJKfasta, that's inefficient12:41
ShadowJKBecause they'd be redownloading everything daily12:41
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ShadowJKinstead of just downloading changes12:41
fastaShadowX: with diffs12:41
fastaIt's in the interest of the leecher to download as little as possible.12:42
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: haha, sure we would *love* to give _everybody_ lightning fast access12:42
fastaDocScrutinizer05: are you the only one who can visit it now? ;)12:42
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05, it's about cutting down on bytes transfered by these mirroring people12:43
kerioShadowJK: apt-mirror is somewhat efficient12:43
kerioit only downloads the changed packages12:43
DocScrutinizer05fasta: the only one except warfare you will ever talk to, I guess12:43
ShadowJKAnd then if we could convince them to donwload from jacekowski offered bandwidth it'd be even better :-)12:43
kerioShadowJK: it's just the first update, anyway12:44
kerioextras doesn't change a lot12:44
kerioand it's the main culprit, really12:44
keriotogether with extras-devel, which already has some mirrors that are better than the original12:44
DocScrutinizer05SPI with reject for everyone not using "APT maemo" browser12:44
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: why? :s12:45
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keriowhat's the index page for, then?12:45
DocScrutinizer05will relatively effectively reject mirrors and other leechers12:45
kerioDocScrutinizer05: until they change their user agent :)12:45
DocScrutinizer05proper traffic shaping for those non-APT-maemo connections would be even better12:46
DocScrutinizer05kerio: sure they could do12:46
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: it however wouldn't change much for them, since then again everything collapses12:46
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DocScrutinizer05so either way they don't get a proper image12:46
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DocScrutinizer05kill connections after they downloaded >100MB12:47
DocScrutinizer05fail2ban alike12:47
DocScrutinizer05"sorry dude! no more than 100MB download per day. Your IP got blocked for 24h"12:48
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ShadowJKit's funny, I thought everything else but rmo would be the hard stuff12:50
ShadowJKand rmo would be the easiest, since it's "only" bandwidth12:50
DocScrutinizer05dang, I wonder who's that .ua leecher12:50
kerioShadowJK: as it turns out, we've got more n900s than we thought12:50
kerioDocScrutinizer05: what's .ua?12:50
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fastaWe have 2000Gb/s fiber optical connections. Such a waste of talent that people need to spend time on reducing bandwidth.12:50
* ShadowJK has 100M (ish) at home12:51
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fastaBy "we", I meant some research lab.12:51
keriofasta: it's just a workaround for a bureaucratic issue, we could be using cloudflare if we had control of the dns12:51
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DocScrutinizer051Gbit proper ISP backbone would already make us happy12:51
kerio(there's a free tier for cloudflare, wtf - how do they make money?)12:51
fastakerio: the brand becomes more valuable if it has more users.12:52
* ShadowJK wonders if 4chan is on the free tier too12:52
fastakerio: larger users will pay.12:52
DocScrutinizer05by shanghaiing your DNS12:52
warfarekerio: With the paid contracts. Which you actually want if you run a business on top of a cdn.12:52
fastaDocScrutinizer05: is that a technical term?12:52
kerioShadowJK: the first paid tier is 20$/month12:52
kerioDocScrutinizer05: what's good about shangaiing dnses?12:52
DocScrutinizer05fasta: somewhat12:52
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: all that we can't do now since we didn't, for 'our' DNS12:53
DocScrutinizer05kerio: the ability to decide on your own discretion and being in control and possession of your DNS12:54
kerioDocScrutinizer05: well, apparently they're also testing a CNAME solution for subdomains12:55
fastaDocScrutinizer05: I understand what the word means; I don't see what you meant, however.12:55
kerioand besides, it's the only way you could do CDN for your top level domain without redirects, aiui12:55
DocScrutinizer05probably if we ever gain control over, the bylaws in contratc with Nokia would even forbid to hand control over it to somebody else12:55
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: you gain control of the domain when you're the legal entity responsible for it according to the registrar12:56
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kerioyou can set your root nameserver to whatever you want, that's not giving control of the domain12:56
fastakerio: that's what I thought.12:56
kerioyou've got the magical implied A records for your root nameservers set with the registrar (if you decide to have nameservers in your domain)12:57
kerioso you can "bootstrap" your DNSes12:58
fastaThe only problem I have with DNS is that the software that needs to run it is written by amateurs.12:59
DocScrutinizer05kerio: see a few days back in #maemo-ssu (iirc). It's been found that that one free CDN has no PHP but only static content, and they want admin-c over your domain aiui12:59
DocScrutinizer05since NS would be theirs12:59
kerioyeah but you can take away the NS at any time13:00
DocScrutinizer05not if they are admin-c13:00
keriooh, i see13:00
kerioyeah, that's bullshit :)13:01
keriocoralcdn is also free, but it only works with redirects13:01
keriowhich won't work, because the stock apt is older than dirt13:01
ShadowJKcan we create a domain, point its NS over to cloudflare, then in CNAME repository to :-)13:02
warfaremaybe we can build our own cdn - setup powerdns with geomatching and have community supported varnish boxes ;)13:02
DocScrutinizer05only feasible way: we stay owner and admin-c of DNS, but we redirect to CDN's NS in our DNS13:03
kerioShadowJK: neat13:03
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: only feasible way: we stay owner and admin-c of DNS, but we point to CDN's NS in our DNS13:03
kerioShadowJK: i doubt it would work13:03
kerioyou need the correct hostname request for http to work properly13:03
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DocScrutinizer05I don't know if APT or HAM handles CNAME13:04
ShadowJKAnyway, we do need a DNS host at some point or another, might as well be cloudflare? :-)13:04
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05, everythign does13:04
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: getaddrbyname handles CNAME :)13:04
damo22just tell everyone to use a different repository13:04
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damo22problem solved13:04
DocScrutinizer05well, then that's what I already suggested when we can't get control over We need Nokia to create CNAME to domains we own13:05
keriodamo22: the whole point of all of this is that we'll eventually gain proper control of and then slip in cssu13:05
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keriopossibly with something that replaces the boot video with a static "NOKIA SUCKS" image13:05
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ShadowJKOh, I vaguely rememberd there was restrictions with CNAMEs, but I forgot what those were. Now I remember, you can only have one CNAME record, but you can have multiple A record.13:05
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fastaDocScrutinizer05: the people over in #dns generally laugh at you when you use CNAMEs.13:06
keriofasta: are you sure they're not laughing at DNAMEs?13:06
DocScrutinizer05I can generally live with that13:06
fastakerio: I haven't heard about DNAMEs. So, I am going to assume they don't exist.13:06
damo22if the person who controls the DNS records for is currently employed by nokia how are you gonna get control of it... ever13:07
DocScrutinizer05[disclaimer] I have a cloudy idea of how DNS stuff works, at best13:07
fastaDocScrutinizer05: DNS is non-trivial, IMHO.13:07
kerioDocScrutinizer05: when you use CNAMEs for http servers, the final server has to accept that he's supposed to be responding to your CNAME too13:07
fastaIt's trivial in theory.13:07
keriofasta: it's a good assumption, really13:07
keriothey're deprecated and a generally bad idea13:07
DocScrutinizer05fasta: yes, that's the idea of CNAME13:07
fastaMaking it work is something entirely different.13:07
DocScrutinizer05kerio: ^^^13:07
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i doubt cloudflare will "accept" that :)13:08
DocScrutinizer05kerio: yep13:08
damo22do one of you guys here control the DNS zone file?13:08
fastaIf I ever need personel for a networking position, I know exactly how I am going to grill them :)13:08
DocScrutinizer05wait for warfare and what he comes up with eventually13:08
DocScrutinizer05he is checking alternatives he knows of by his professional experience, this very minute13:09
keriodamo22: i think that the domain is still owned by nokia oyj13:09
ShadowJKdamo22; nope. We/they have to beg nokia for any changes13:09
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damo22i see,13:09
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kerioand until they control the domain, we can't change the name servers for the domain13:10
Lava_CroftShould get as much users to harass Nokia with requests to get their shit straight13:10
kerioand the name servers are NS*.NOKIA.COM13:10
keriowhich are obviously controlled by nokia :)13:10
damo22one of you guys need to apply for a job with nokia and gain control of the admin position13:10
damo22then by mistake, set the nameservers to13:11
keriowhen you're hired by nokia, you get a chip implanted in your brain13:11
kerioand nowadays, that chip runs windows CE13:11
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Lava_CroftWindows8, mind you:)13:11
DocScrutinizer05RTFM ;-P13:11
Lava_Croftthe CE based version is deprecated and looking at the 7.8 update its a joke too13:11
damo22if M$ ever tries to install DRM enforcing brain chip kill me okay?13:12
Lava_CroftMS will try that just as hard as any other company13:12
ShadowJKAmusingly I trust MS more than Google now :-)13:13
damo22SecureBoot will prevent any linux os from booting on it13:13
Lava_CroftMS has some really friendly FOSS terms for their appstore13:13
damo22ShadowJK: really?? why13:13
ShadowJKdamo22; wrt privacy and such, I mean13:13
Lava_CroftI trust Google as much as I trust MS13:13
Lava_Croftwhich is not at all13:13
damo22i trust a big company as far as i can throw them13:13
kerioi'd like a brain chip to access wireless networks13:14
kerioexcept that i also read reflections on trusting trust13:14
kerioand i'm not good enough at reading circuits to figure out if the actual hardware is trustworthy13:14
damo22yeah that is going to be a problem13:14
Lava_CroftIt would be great if we all had chips in our head produced by the same company13:15
Lava_Croftsounds like a really great idea13:15
damo22i think the only solution to the digital trust problem is open hardware specs, open software specs everything13:15
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Lava_CroftI still opt for the solution that JC Denton presented at the end of Deus Ex Invisible War13:16
damo22so if someone finds a problem with the current implementation, they are free to change it and reimplement it13:16
damo22thats all13:16
keriodamo22: nope, you still have a trust problem for the manufacturing13:16
damo22quality control13:17
damo22and testing13:17
damo22should fix that13:17
ShadowJKI'm not sure what company my CC number is safest with. Probably MS. Google probably doesn't give it out, but like paypal it might probably suddenly try charge something random for no good reason. As for Nokia, well, Nokia/Ovi store is so incompetent, that even if I gave them my CC number, they'd probably delete it accidentally, and if not, they're usually not able to figure out how to charge a CC anyway, even when I want them to :-)13:17
Lava_CroftI would totally trust Nokia with all my personal information indeed13:17
Lava_CroftThey are such a bunch of fuckups that they can hardly pose any danger13:17
keriodamo22: nope13:18
keriothere's no amount of testing that can figure out if someone is planting a hardware bug in your cpu13:18
damo22what if the microcode is open source13:19
keriodamo22: **manufacturer**13:19
kerioor shipping13:20
damo22if they wire it up wrong inside, it wont work13:20
keriothe problem is not that they might wire it wrong13:20
keriothe problem is that they might wire it /just right/13:20
damo22according to the specs, a cpu instruction should perform an action that is expected, every instruction can be tested13:20
kerioand your testing will reveal absolutely nothing wrong13:20
Lava_CroftWho is going to say the Chinese havent done so already13:21
kerioLava_Croft: that's the whole point!13:21
Lava_CroftAnyone who played the original Deus Ex knew this already:)13:21
damo22hang on a sec13:21
DocScrutinizer05damo22: nope, you basically can't test anything inside a SoC or CPU13:21
kerioLava_Croft: you linked us a video of deus ex invisible war, you have to hand in your deus ex fanboy card13:22
DocScrutinizer05you can check if the results are like you expected, but you won't find out about a phantom CPU that's doing code inspection and eventually intercepts/takes over13:22
damo22thats a bit paranoid13:23
damo22wouldnt you say13:23
DocScrutinizer05sure, but feasible13:23
DocScrutinizer05btw RISC has no microcode afaik13:23
keriojust because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you ;)13:23
damo22i know13:24
keriosome modern intel cpus can be "upgraded" via software13:24
damo22upgrade a cpu???13:24
kerioyeah, if you buy the low-end model you don't get the cool virtualization features13:24
DocScrutinizer05sure, why not13:24
chem|stdamo22: microcode updates13:24
damo22this is bad13:25
kerioyou can buy a card with a code, and then you unlock those features with your code13:25
damo22defective products by design13:25
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keriodefective for who?13:25
DocScrutinizer05way cheaper that to produce different chips13:25
damo22for the user13:25
keriodefinetely not for the people who're out to get you13:25
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: way cheaper than to produce different chips13:25
damo22give us a super chip that can be i7 but locked down to i313:26
DocScrutinizer05that's a very common practive with appliences already13:26
Lava_Croftneutered cpus :<13:26
chem|stfrom wafer edges you get i3 from wafer center you get i7, i5 is afair another design13:26
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DocScrutinizer05the cheap TV also has all the cute capabilities to do HDD recording etc, just locked in firmware13:27
chem|stall this quad tripple dual core things is one chip13:27
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: someties they just not install required hardware13:28
chem|stdefective cores get either turned off by software and may be unlocked or by Focused Ion Beam cut out -> not to be unlocked13:28
jacekowskimicrocode upgrades are different thing413:28
jacekowskimicrocode updates are there to fix bugs13:28
DocScrutinizer05they produce flash; they design it for 34GB and sell as 32. Now if a chip is too damaged to get the 32 but has only 30, they lock it down to 1613:28
chem|stjacekowski: I thought it is the same codebase for unlocking13:28
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DocScrutinizer05same with quad core CPU13:30
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: wtf, flash is so cheap they can just bin the chip..13:30
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DocScrutinizer05one core not complying with the speed stepping, they rather lock that one core than rating down speed stepping for all 4 cores13:30
chem|stjacekowski: enlighten please13:31
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damo22one day it will be the same with software13:38
damo22all the features built into the super model, modules switched off for lower end13:38
jacekowskichem|st: upgrade thing is completly different set of features13:38
jacekowskichem|st: microcode is there to patch existing opcodes in cpu13:38
jacekowskichem|st: and microcode is horribly slow13:39
damo22its probably not a bad thing, but its bad if they do it in a way that is anticompetitive13:39
damo22like creating a monopoly on the app store for example13:39
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chem|stjacekowski: ah ok now I get what you mean13:40
jacekowskichem|st: but slow instruction is better than incorrectly working instruction13:40
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damo22they are probably working on a cpu that has instructions 'locked', and only verifies itself with software13:40
damo22and serial number of registered software13:41
chem|stsoftware will be hacked...13:41
damo22yes it will, but it will get more and more difficult13:42
damo22since to get a development environment will be tricky13:42
chem|stdo you know why people do not hack the pentagon that often?13:42
keriobecause there's not much of interest in it?13:43
chem|stthat too13:43
jacekowskibecause there are people on the other side of the firewall13:43
jacekowskithat know what they are doing13:43
jacekowskiand "monitor" it constantly13:43
chem|stjacekowski: exactly13:43
keriojacekowski: meh, people that know what they're doing isn't really the problem13:43
keriothe problem are their friends with the $big_gunz13:43
damo22why did this convo turn to the pentagon13:44
damo22we are talking about cpus13:44
keriodamo22: it's because they control the chip that's currently inside your brain13:44
damo22what chip? u suck13:44
chem|stkerio: it takes about the same time to reroute your connection to be hidden as it takes them to follow the route13:44
keriodamo22: that's what the chip makes you think13:44
damo22im sure theyd love to do that, but they dont need it, they have facebook and iphones13:45
chem|sta teacher asked students about what STASI wanted to know about their people, then he let the students strike out anything not on facebook13:47
chem|stthe teacher used to be my neighbour13:47
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damo22there is a level of balance between caring about society and caring about yourself, we all need to make a living13:48
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damo22too little care about society makes you a good businessman and an arsehole, too much care about society and you become a mental nutcase who cant make a living13:49
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damo22i like to keep the balance in the middle13:50
chem|stI like to be the bad guy...13:50
damo22this is the reason i contribute to free software13:51
damo22when i can13:51
damo22and i love the n900 because it gives me the freedom to run a free operating system (with a few blob exceptions)13:52
damo22if i had the luxury of not having to make a living, i might take the point of view that i should reject any technology that is restricted in any way at all13:54
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DocScrutinizer05root@stage:~# grep "91.22x.2x.10x" /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log|wc -l13:57
DocScrutinizer05root@stage:~# wc -l  /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log13:57
DocScrutinizer05407609 /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log13:57
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DocScrutinizer05188.117.59.205                                                        => 91.22x.2x.10x                                                         0.99Mb   638kb   600kb14:00
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DocScrutinizer0591.22x.2x.10x - - [04/Feb/2013:06:34:18 +0000] "GET HTTP/1.1" 200 696 "-" "Wget/1.14 (linux-gnu)"14:00
damo22what is jammo?14:01
DocScrutinizer05some app14:01
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DocScrutinizer05that's just one example out of the 256514:01
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DocScrutinizer05somebody mirroring the repo with wget14:02
DocScrutinizer05taking 1/25 of available bandwidth14:02
DocScrutinizer05there are others like him14:02
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kerioso? ban him14:03
damo22so hes using multiple ips to mirror the whole repo?14:03
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I'm discussing it with warfare14:03
keriotemporarily, of course14:03
keriowe could also decide that right now, it's fast enough14:03
DocScrutinizer05damo22: why do you think that?14:03
keriowho do we know from ukraine?14:04
damo22i dont know14:04
kerioE*_ is polish, fmg is bulgarian14:04
damo22i thought the x;s represented multiple numbers14:04
DocScrutinizer05the x represent privacy protection introduced by me14:04
damo22i see, PCI-DSS-IP14:05
kerioDocScrutinizer05: we could make jacekowski use his multi-gbit connection to flood him :D14:05
DocScrutinizer05also called censoring ;-)14:05
DocScrutinizer05kerio: nice idea to throttle that client ;-P14:06
trxmulti-gbit? :D14:06
trxis he a tier 1 node?14:06
keriomodified fmtxd binaries at the speed of light!14:06
damo22or you could publish his ip and we can nmap him and play with his ports14:07
keriodamo22: at some point, it becomes illega14:07
DocScrutinizer05that's exactly why I don't publish full IP14:07
keriopinging him... eeh14:07
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DocScrutinizer05odds are this is a benevolent dude running a maemo mirror14:08
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DocScrutinizer05maybe even on his company's server14:08
M4rtinKmany users don't follow TMO or IRC14:09
DocScrutinizer05we might cause DDoS on a "innocent" infra14:09
damo22it might be a script that backs up the mirror14:09
M4rtinKand there are probably still active non-english N900 communities14:09
M4rtinKso they might be running their own mirrors once they found the repos work again14:10
DocScrutinizer05might ruin that dude's life, getting fired for abusing his company's IT14:10
damo22can i purchase a DVD set of Maemo extras?14:10
keriothis isn't debian14:10
DocScrutinizer05sure, I'll send you for 100EUR ;-D14:10
kerioit'd be obsolete before they're shipped14:10
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DocScrutinizer05send it to you*14:11
damo22how many Gb is the full repo?14:11
DocScrutinizer05good question14:11
DocScrutinizer05depends on what you include to "full"14:12
DocScrutinizer05some 1.x TB iirc the stats of skeiron14:12
damo22i see14:12
damo22DVD set isnt a good option then14:12
damo22USB HDD maybe14:13
M4rtinKtapes :)14:13
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eddybDocScrutinizer05: I told you I'd be having fun14:13
damo22eddyb: OMG i have seen that screen before with nouveau on my MBP14:13
eddybthat's scanning for ARM code (the probably most common subsequence between all ARM instructions, the ALWAYS condition code)14:14
DocScrutinizer05sorry, this picture reminds me to "snowing at nighttime"14:14
eddyba somewhat-continuous line of the same color indicates ARM code14:16
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eddybthe beginning of the larger white section at the bottom is a function calling other functions with its parameters14:16
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damo22all the effort people put into RE, they could have made a new one from scratch14:19
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keriodamo22: cmt checks a signature14:20
keriothe phone inside the n90014:21
jonwileddyb: what exactly are you trying to reverse engineer and why?14:21
jonwilcellular modem firmware I get but which bit and why do you care about it?14:21
kerioand most importantly, do you have a copy of the hex-rays arm disassembler?14:22
eddybthat joke?14:22
eddybyes I've used it once14:22
jonwilI have never used hex-rays on ARM14:22
jonwilbut hex-rays does a good job on x8614:22
eddybI don't want a good job, I want an excellent job14:23
damo22can u write a disassembler with the spec sheet of the cpu instruction set?14:23
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DocScrutinizer05(some connection speeds)14:23
jonwilok, so what exactly are you reverse engineering this for?14:24
jonwilif you just want to talk to the cellular modem, there are easier ways to do that than reverse engineering its firmware :)14:24
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jonwilwriting a replacement isn't going to happen because of the security on the cellular modem14:24
eddybdamo22: not sure what you're getting at, but I have a decompiler in the works, and for disassembly, I almost copy-pasted the opcode table in the intel manuals14:24
eddybjonwil: yeah, I know all the security issues. but I'm curious14:25
damo22i imagine if you have hexdumps of firmware you can read off the instructions and map them to opcodes14:25
eddybbut if you look at that image14:25
eddybonly small pieces of it is ARM14:25
eddybsomeone told me to look at C614:26
eddyberr, enter key is happy today14:26
jonwilCouldn't some of it be for a DSP chip?14:26
jonwilhmmm yeah C64 is a DSP14:26
eddybjonwil: yeah, that's what he said. the header actually confirms that about half the binary is for the DSP14:26
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DocScrutinizer05warfare invents some conditional blacklisting based on criteria from /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log14:27
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damo22it might be worth converting the hexdump into ascii and checking for strings14:27
kerioDocScrutinizer05: looks good, apart for the two unlucky bastards who got 5kb/s14:27
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DocScrutinizer05I suggested sth along the lines of only allowing a few hundered wgets per day and distinct IP14:27
eddybC64's instructions are similar to ARM, but the ALWAYS condition code is 0, so it's going to be harder to look for them14:28
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: what's the problem, at the moment?14:28
eddybdamo22: there's actually parts of the C code embedded in the binary14:28
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eddybleft in there probably by ASSERT14:28
DocScrutinizer05kerio: repo slow?14:28
fluxthat seemed bizarre until I realized C64 is not commodore 6414:28
kerioDocScrutinizer05: is it slow?14:28
eddybjonwil: this would be so much easier if the lengths in the header wouldn't be amounting to almost double the file size14:29
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damo22eddyb: so are there function calls that jump to raw DSP code?14:30
DocScrutinizer05according to warfare there's an ISP in Hamburg with a few maemo fans... in the crew14:31
damo22you should be able to find a signature that indicates this kind of jump14:31
eddybdamo22: a jump from ARM to DSP?14:31
eddybthat doesn't sound right at all14:31
M4rtinKwell, at least in my case updating packages from the repos is still very slow14:32
damo22or do they run independently?14:32
M4rtinKand what's worst, it seems to basically stall most of the time, jumping a few % from time to time14:32
DocScrutinizer05sure they do14:32
M4rtinKas it seems to be working for others, I'm starting to wonder if I'm doing something wrong :)14:33
jonwilI found this with google14:33
eddybjonwil: so I'm not sure if the contents are packed or they're just code for a different platform14:33
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: thanks for reports. That's what we thought it is like, for a significant fraction of clients14:33
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: no problem14:33
jonwilit might be that the cmt firmware file is compressed14:33
M4rtinKoh and for the record, once I finally download a package, I get hash mismatch14:34
eddybjonwil: it has a non-compressed header and non-compressed strings/ARM code in it14:34
jonwilhmmm ok14:34
M4rtinKbasically always14:34
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: yes, that's about all you ever get to know about rapuyama14:34
damo22eddyb: is this the firmware for the phone part of the n900?14:35
jonwilThat and information on how to remove the carrier lock from phones with BB5 chips14:36
eddybdamo22: yes14:36
damo22eddyb: sounds like fun14:36
eddybdamo22: it's a secondary, less powerful SoC, but with DSP14:36
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: yes, for all "normal" BB5 phones. unclear if it applies to N900 rapuyama14:36
jonwilnot that it matters for N900 since very few, if any, were ever sold locked to a carrier14:37
DocScrutinizer05there are some14:37
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DocScrutinizer05sprint iirc14:37
damo22eddyb: maybe it will have special functions with low level calls to the hardware14:38
DocScrutinizer05at least we got an unlock GUI14:38
DocScrutinizer05probably from times when libisi didn't support USSD14:38
eddybdamo22: there's too little ARM code in there14:39
jonwilI dont think sprint ever sold N900s14:39
jonwilsprint is CDMA and the N900 is UMTS14:39
jonwilbtw, I recon based on the evidence that the BB5 chip is made by Texas Instruments14:40
damo22maybe the code is interleaved like a php file eg:  <?php echo "hello ?>htmlcraphere<?php die('exit') ?>14:40
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damo22bad example, since this is opcodes but still14:41
eddybdamo22: gaaah14:41
eddybdamo22: you have good ideas, but you're not helping14:41
jonwilme, I still see no point in bothering to reverse engineer the CMT firmware14:41
jonwilmuch better things to reverse engineer from where I sit :)14:42
eddybI need to improve my analyzer to extract and disassemble the pieces of code14:43
damo22eddyb: is there a pattern or consistent opcodes between the arm stuff and dsp stuff?14:43
eddybdamo22: oh, thanks, that reminded me, I wanted to look for patterns in the non-(ARM code/ASCII strings) parts of the binary14:43
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jonwilIf I had the time to really devote to it (and the right tools) I would go back and take another crack at the GPRS stuff...14:44
jonwilbut thus far the connectivity UI bits have eluded pretty much all my attempts to reverse engineer them14:45
damo22i am reverse engineering a sound card for firewire + alsa14:46
eddybwell, good luck14:46
damo22playback is working14:47
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jonwilbut yeah hex-rays is great for x86, I use it all the time on any number of x86 binaries :)14:49
Hurrianhmm, doesn't the SoC simply talk to whatever firmware runs on the BB5?14:49
keriojonwil: but no arm :(14:50
jonwilno, I haven't used hex-rays for ARM14:50
jonwilalthough I wish I had it to use on N900 stuffs :P14:50
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damo22what about objdump -c or whatever14:50
eddybI wish I didn't have all this meaningless school stuff14:50
eddybmy small analyzer already beats IDA14:51
eddybI have proof-of-return stack analysis14:51
kerioEstel_: i suppose that we have to decide what the battery applet is supposed to be14:51
kerioshould it just report the data from hald-addon-bme and consider *that* as the most accurate?14:51
kerioif so, the "problem" is with hald-addon-bme14:52
damo22what is a good offline map solution for maemo?14:53
keriodamo22: completely offline?14:53
damo22well, yes,14:53
keriomonav's offline routing is used pretty much by every open mapping solution14:53
kerioit's *that* good14:54
damo22except perhaps gps location currently displaying14:54
kerioyeah, yeah, agps is cheap enough :)14:54
keriomonav itself is... a bit weird, perhaps, but i like it14:54
kerioand has vector maps14:54
damo22i love vector maps14:54
keriomodrana is also very good, but you have to download map tiles14:54
keriothere's kde's marble, which is also kinda good14:54
damo22does monav have whole world in vector format?14:55
eddybI could have had a decompilator working months ago. or even just weeks. but no, I have to waste my time with this stupid school14:55
tadzikno you don't14:55
keriodamo22: these aren't *that* outdated14:55
keriodamo22: the whole world is mapped, in separate packages14:55
kerioit uses OSM data, of course14:55
damo22kerio: wow nice14:56
kerioafaik the version of monav in extras-devel doesn't work with those packages14:56
kerioso you have to use the .deb from that site14:56
eddybtadzik: talk to my parents, get me a place to stay and money for food14:56
tadzikha, fair enough14:56
damo22can i use the monav in stable and maps on the website?14:56
eddybtadzik: after that, I *may* be able to code crazy awesome stuff for you14:57
keriodamo22: i'm not sure if monav is in extras, just use the .deb from the website too :)14:57
eddybI also could just be a dreamy teenager with a history of half-finished projects14:57
kerioeddyb: that's... more likely14:57
eddybkerio: thanks for the reality check14:57
eddybwho knows. my gf just dumped me. things are going up and up14:58
eddybexcept I'm upside-down14:58
kerio...hand over your geek card14:58
tadzikeddyb: I thought so too. "When I finish my studies I'll have so much time!". Now I'm studying full-time and working half-time, and it's a bit exhausting sometimes14:58
damo22real geeks dont have gfs?14:58
tadzikI'm fine being unreal then14:59
eddybdamo22: no, real geeks inject themselves with dopamine prepared in the basement lab14:59
damo22you mean, pron14:59
eddybtake a look at this
eddybisn't this better than any other disassembler out there?15:00
kerioeddyb: HACK/FIXME/HACK/FIXME/FIXME in four consecutive lines15:01
eddybI can be forgetful... I learned that the hard way (with dreams and ideas)15:01
eddybI blame github for showing code before the highlighted line15:02
damo22a disassembler written in javascript?15:02
damo22why oh why15:03
eddybdamo22: stop whining, it's not PHP15:03
eddybES6 is the Perl of the decade15:03
damo22whats wrong with C15:03
eddybyou're not going to get anywhere15:04
eddybI can almost copy-paste the opcode tables from the intel manuals15:04
eddybwell, Perl and LISP15:04
DocScrutinizer05(connection speed statistics)
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damo22you could write a tokeniser in C that parses a binary and outputs a customised string for each byte on the input quite easily15:05
eddybstrings. pffft15:06
eddybthis baby doesn't output strings15:06
damo22what does it output? the opcodes compiled into C?15:08
eddybit outputs expressions15:08
eddybsimilar to a simplified AST15:08
kerioDocScrutinizer05: meh, good enough15:08
damo22ok cool15:08
damo22like chunks of assembler macros?15:09
eddybdamo22: like: EAX = 0; for xor eax, eax15:09
DocScrutinizer05kerio: those are sorted top down top ~50 in download bandwidth15:09
DocScrutinizer05kerio: lots of connections are at 0b 0b 0b15:10
eddybdamo22: or EIP = 0xf00bar; for jmp 0xf00bar15:10
kerioDocScrutinizer05: oh :(15:10
kerioDocScrutinizer05: can't we do throttling?15:10
damo22lots of people are working on optimizing GCC to produce fast code, why dont they spend more effort writing a decompiler that outputs clean C code15:11
eddybdamo22: GCC is written in C. even if it's exaggerated, I consider myself a bit of a visionary15:12
eddybyou can't hold on to your old habits and have nice things at the same time15:12
eddybprogress is all about change15:12
DocScrutinizer05kerio: [2013-02-04 13:27:04] <DocScrutinizer05> warfare invents some conditional blacklisting based on criteria from /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log15:13
fluxdamo22, C isn't really that great a target language for a (de)compiler, you can easily encounter structures that don't nicely map into C. such as tail-jumps.15:13
DocScrutinizer05(I'm to lame to code my ideas ;-P)15:13
damo22what about an interpreted language like python15:14
eddybflux: that too, but I think he was talking about the code the decompiler is written in15:14
eddybdamo22: python < JS < ES615:14
fluxoh. I definitely wouldn't choose C for writing a disassembler :-o. I mean, what C's advantages you get to take advantage of?15:15
damo22bison / flex or whatever15:15
fluxright, those must be unique to C..15:15
M4rtinKpython > everything ?ú15:15
eddybM4rtinK: by that logic, whitespace > everything15:16
DocScrutinizer05kerio: he just established that15:16
M4rtinKIIRC, it is used for RE quite often15:16
eddybbut it's not that good15:16
damo22python would be good i reckon15:16
eddybgah please no more snake fans15:16
DocScrutinizer05kerio: top ten from log get throttled to 75kbps now15:16
M4rtinKwell, I've heard LOLCODE is quite nice :)15:16
M4rtinKwell, everybody likes his own :)15:17
damo22ok forget it, just fire up your DOS 6.22 with BASICA15:17
DocScrutinizer05and I'm away for a session with my dentist :-S15:17
M4rtinKor QML ? :)15:17
M4rtinKthere is QBS already - a build system15:17
M4rtinKbased on QML15:17
kerioa friend of mine is an admin at esolangs, he's fluent in ~20 programming languages15:17
kerioand yet, his favourite is perl :s15:18
eddybkerio: because it gets things done?15:18
eddybjust like Harmony15:18
eddyband very well, I might add15:18
kerioplenty of ways to get things done without having to use a write-only language15:18
damo22ok i opened a can of worms15:18
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damo22i think they all crawled away now though15:19
eddybkerio: heh, Perl? I wouldn't learn it myself, at least nothing more than the basics15:19
damo22but you cant blame me for being surprised you wrote a disassembler in js15:20
eddybin a few years, legacy JS will be replaced, and all those problems you were whining about would be long gone15:20
DocScrutinizer05uplink throttled from 25Mbps to 22 with that top ten punishment15:20
eddybdamo22: it's not technically JS, just the file extension. it's Harmony/ES6, "compiled" to js by google's traceur-compiler15:20
DocScrutinizer05which also meant we shouldn't see packet loss on ISP side anymore15:20
teotwakiDocScrutinizer05: 25MB/s? Or 25Mbit/s?15:21
teotwakiThat's pretty anemic.15:21
eddybDocScrutinizer05: that's a bit too slow15:22
DocScrutinizer05that's what ISP seems to shape our uplink to15:22
DocScrutinizer05sth around 50..3015:22
DocScrutinizer05err 25..3015:22
teotwakiMy $20/mo box sends out at 80-90Mbit/s no problem, and has been for the past 4-5 months or so.15:22
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DocScrutinizer05too slow for what?15:22
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eddybDocScrutinizer05: "bit". failed pun15:22
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DocScrutinizer05teotwaki: well, I don't know what contract Nemein has with their ISP15:23
M4rtinKhmm, seems to not to stall that much now15:24
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: good :-)15:24
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M4rtinKtoo soon - 74% and holding :)15:25
teotwakiDocScrutinizer05: that being said, I was backing up rmo at noon...15:25
M4rtinK(from 296kB on the kmplayer package)15:25
keriohow do battery applets on linux work?15:26
keriowhere do they get the data?15:26
eddybsysfs, I think15:27
DocScrutinizer05most of them use lshal or similar15:27
eddybor a hal15:27
keriooh, acpi15:27
eddybbut the hal uses sysfs, right?15:27
eddybkerio: acpi on x86 only AFAIK15:27
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DocScrutinizer05hal uses haldaddonbme15:28
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i meant on linux desktops15:28
M4rtinKFailed to fetch <url>/kmplayer_0.10.6.900-3_armel.deb Hash Sum mismatch15:28
DocScrutinizer05on desktops either hal or sysfs15:28
M4rtinKafter it finished downloading15:28
kerioM4rtinK: that's a repo problem15:29
keriothat is, the download was probably successful15:29
DocScrutinizer05toldya the hashsum is a problem inherited from original repo, introduced probably by autobuilder15:30
DocScrutinizer05I had no time to look into it and wrap my head around it15:31
DocScrutinizer05ask thedead1440, merlin1991, brkn15:31
DocScrutinizer05pester Nemein/x-fade to fix it15:32
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DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: that hashsum error been at end of update? or did you do something else to trigger it?15:42
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DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: like installing kmplayer from HAM15:42
Palilogging on not working15:44
Paliinvalid username or password15:44
gryodd, try to reset?15:44
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kerionah, it's currently broken15:46
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damo22kerio: is there a way to display the street names on the offline vector maps in monav?16:00
kerioi dunno16:00
damo22thats the only thing i dont have atm16:00
M4rtinKdamo22: directly in Monav ?16:01
damo22M4rtinK: yeah16:01
M4rtinKdamo22: depends if the renderer can do that16:02
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M4rtinKand if street names are included in the vector data (they probably are)16:02
M4rtinKmaybe try the desktop version if it shows up there ?16:02
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: I've just done "apt-get update" and then "apt-get install kmplayer"16:03
M4rtinKkmplayer because it showed there is an update for it16:03
M4rtinKI'll try to uninstall it first16:03
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thedead1440M4rtinK: I'm confused on it too; i just tried downloading kmplayer and it downloaded fine via apt-get install without any errors :S16:16
damo22nope the vector maps dont display the street names in i386 either16:23
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damo22unless i go for online16:23
M4rtinKso it is probably renderer limitation then16:24
M4rtinKit is a shame Monav development is quite a bit in limbo at the moment16:24
M4rtinKwhich is unfortunate as many features are incomplete16:25
M4rtinKthere are also quite a lot of clones with some interesting changes, but as the main developer seems to be AWOL, nobody is merging them back16:26
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damo22would the online maps use less data if i have the downloaded stuff?16:29
M4rtinKI think it is one or the other16:29
M4rtinKeither you use the vector data for rendering16:30
M4rtinKor you use the prerendered map tiles16:30
M4rtinKI don't think it supports showing bot at the same time16:30
M4rtinKbut I haven't played with it too much16:30
M4rtinK(as I'm developing my own navigation system :) )16:31
damo22what about mapswithme16:31
damo22is that maemo friendly?16:31
kerioM4rtinK: gimme vector rendering! :(16:32
M4rtinKwhat is it ?16:32
keriodownloading tiles is bullshit16:32
damo22i had a iphone app that was free that used free vector maps, it rocked16:33
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M4rtinKkerio: ok, if you help me resolve this: :)16:33
M4rtinKonce I can get Kothic to actually display something other than a blue screen (how fitting ! :) )16:34
M4rtinKintegrating it with the GTK interface should not be that difficult16:34
M4rtinKmaking a QPainter front end would be also nice :)16:35
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M4rtinKthedead1440: trying again through SSH, so I can post the output16:41
M4rtinKfor the record, the is the log from apt-get update:
kerioM4rtinK: so...16:45
kerioopen it in pdb, check what's options.filename?16:45
kerioalso, are you using py3k?16:45
M4rtinKkerio: I think that is is probably some projection error16:46
M4rtinKit does something with the vector data16:46
M4rtinKbut probably for some offscreen area16:47
M4rtinKit is just that I haven't got to trying that yet16:47
M4rtinKso someone looking into it could speed up things quite a lot :)16:47
M4rtinKregarding Python 316:48
kerioM4rtinK: just use python 216:48
M4rtinKI'm investigating how to write code that works both with Python 2.5 & 3.216:48
kerioyou can't16:48
keriothey're wildly different languages16:48
kerioand 2.5 is old as shit16:48
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M4rtinKthe only issues so far are string handling16:49
M4rtinKand exception handling16:49
keriothose are both *HUGE* aspects16:49
M4rtinKwell, not only but main16:49
M4rtinK2.5 is what N900 uses16:49
M4rtinKeven the Neo FreeRunner is on 2.6 or 2.716:49
kerioi am aware of that :)16:49
kerioand meh, we could just upgrade16:50
keriowe'll have to do that, at some point16:50
kerio(to the latest 2.7)16:50
M4rtinKand Python 3.2 is what BB10 is using16:50
kerioM4rtinK: just write your code in a way that 2to3 doesn't shit its pants16:50
M4rtinKyeah, Fremantle has the lowest Python version from any system I know modRana runs on :)16:51
M4rtinKhaving at least 2.6 would help due to all the aditional backports16:51
kerioi wonder what i have that uses python16:51
thedead1440M4rtinK: what's the issue there? All the messages are the warning for gpg keys that are expired on nokia's servers; nothing or mirrors can do but this shouldn't stop you from doin anything... Its a message everyone has been ignoring for months already16:52
keriooh, cleven and mobilehotspot16:52
kerio...i can live without either, really16:52
M4rtinKthedead1440: yeah, it seemed nothing is wrong16:52
thedead1440indeed nothing is wrong :)16:52
keriothedead1440: no, the problem is that right now, some repos on rmo are broken16:52
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thedead1440kerio: see his logs its just gpg key issue nothing else16:53
kerioM4rtinK: just make modrana depend on python 2.7 :)16:55
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M4rtinKkerio: as long there is none in Extras it is a no go16:55
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M4rtinKI'm not a fan of dropping support for a platform just because I can :)16:55
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M4rtinKkerio: so appo managed to get it in before everything broke down ?16:56
kerio...but a -rc version, for some reason :s16:57
M4rtinKthe main questions are - how much space does it need16:57
M4rtinK- do PyGTK & PySide work with it ?16:57
M4rtinKthedead1440, DocScrutinizer05: so this is the full log I'm getting:
M4rtinKwhen trying to install kmplayer17:00
M4rtinKis probably the same of other packages17:00
kerioM4rtinK: i don't think so17:00
M4rtinKthis is what I get to install the python2.7 package, BTW:
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JaffaAf'noon, al17:24
merlin1991'lo Jaffa17:26
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, looks like hell.18:37
timmyi am on archlinux, whenever i use flasher to flash my phone everything goes well for the first time but after that when i start flasher to flash again it cannot connect and says Suitable USB device not found, waiting.18:37
timmyUSB device found found at bus 001, device address 010.18:37
timmyError claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy18:37
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RST38hGeneral: Looks niiiice18:38
* RST38h has been there yesterday night, but that was before the snow storm. Looks much nicer tonight.18:39
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keriotimmy: have you blacklisted cdc_phonet?18:41
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timmywhat should i do?18:42
M4rtinKRST38h: quite a little snow on the photo :)18:42
RST38hWell, they are constantly clearing it there.18:43
keriotimmy: hold on, you said that the first flash goes well?18:43
keriois the first flash VANILLA?18:43
timmyfirst one goes well but it can be anything.18:44
timmyeven flashing a kernel18:44
keriohm, weird18:44
timmyi had no such problem on debian, but here on archlinux i am facing this problem18:44
kerioare you rebooting the n900?18:44
kerioalso, lsmod | grep cdc18:44
timmycdc_phonet              4550  018:45
timmyphonet                 20566  1 cdc_phonet18:45
timmyusbcore               148406  7 btusb,uhci_hcd,uvcvideo,ums_realtek,usb_storage,ehci_hcd,cdc_phonet18:45
keriofukken knew it18:45
keriodisconnect the n900, modprobe -r cdc_phonet18:45
timmywhat is it?18:45
kerioand then blacklist it18:45
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eccerr0rcurious for those long time n900 users, ever had one die for no apparent reason (versus mechanical/physical failure or user-caused failures?)20:00
eccerr0rjust wondering about construction/chip quality...20:03
eccerr0rand how long to expect this thing to last if taken care of, physically...20:03
DocScrutinizer055+ years20:03
DocScrutinizer05of constant on20:03
DocScrutinizer05depends on your luck though20:04
DocScrutinizer05modem is known to fail for no obvious reason, for some users20:05
DocScrutinizer05probably soldering issues or actually chip wear20:05
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eccerr0rmodem as in, the GSM module, so it can't make call anymore either?20:16
keriogps will also be busted20:16
eccerr0rgps is slow to make locks to begin with...20:17
eccerr0rmy 5230 locked on GPS much faster20:17
eccerr0r(also AGPS)20:17
kerioi doubt your 5230 locked faster than 4 seconds20:17
kerioat least, not dramatically faster20:17
eccerr0rwell, it was faster than the n90020:18
Sc0rpiusthe N900 is one of the most powerful phones out there20:18
Sc0rpiusbut also the slowest.20:18
Sc0rpiusevery other Nokia was faster20:18
eccerr0rthe 5230's cpu is weak though :D20:18
Sc0rpiusI think it has a lot to do with the full multitasking of Maemo20:19
kerioam i a bad enough dude to install g++, i wonder20:19
Sc0rpiusno wonder why every other smartphone OS doesn't have full multitasking ...20:19
eccerr0rI'm impressed by maemo multitasking.20:19
kerioor, as it's known in other circles, "multitasking"20:20
keriolike, the one that you'd get from a preemptive OS20:20
eccerr0rthe 5230 symbian multitasking is fail.20:20
eccerr0rit's enough to get around though.20:20
keriothe symbian multitasking was perfect, for its time20:21
eccerr0rI absolutely despised the fact that it dropped gsm link when you quit out of the browser20:21
Sc0rpiusthe PalmOS "multitasking" was also great20:21
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keriothat's not a multitasking problem20:21
keriothat's a connection ui problem20:21
Sc0rpiusthat has never happened to me20:22
eccerr0rit should have multiplexed the network correctly...20:22
kerioSc0rpius: yes it did20:22
kerioit's not that it doesn't multiplex it, it's just that it killed connections when there was no program using them20:22
Sc0rpiusmy 3G connection is  very stable in the N90020:22
Sc0rpiusand I'm opening/closing the browser all the time20:22
keriono, we're talking about symbian here20:22
qwazixI loved the way symbian managed connections20:23
qwazixI always knew if a program was transmitting or not20:23
qwazixand you could connect browser over 3g the same time e.g. torrent was downloading over wifi20:23
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eccerr0rit mostly worked though.  Except for those connection issues.20:23
Sc0rpiusI wonder if the Ubuntu phones will have full multitasking like Maemo, that is (for purists) if it's gonna be preemptuve20:24
Sc0rpiuswith its scheduler and everything.20:24
eccerr0rlinux is preemptive... it's all presentation...20:24
qwazixThis was very well thought regarding expensive 3g. On N900 ham might kill your quota in minutes20:24
Sc0rpiusyeah but "Ubuntu phone" is not a full Linux kernel anyway so we have to worry what will be stripped out of it20:25
qwazixSc0rpius, no? and how will desktop mode work without full kernel?20:26
Sc0rpiusyou mean the "superphone" ? I wonder if that's gonna be real.20:26
Sc0rpiusbecause the battery will last like 10 minutes20:27
wmaronestripped out?20:27
eccerr0rI've never actually used an iphone(or even android even)... not sure how task switching works on them... but the mini windows on the task selector in maemo is impressive, I thought they'd be static images...20:27
Sc0rpiusthere are no task switching20:28
Sc0rpiusthe application that's running on the frontend is the only application running20:28
wmaronewell, there is "task switching"20:28
Sc0rpiusand apps register some "events handlers"20:28
Sc0rpiusyou can switch the current application to another one20:28
Sc0rpiusbut there's always just one app running nothing else20:28
eccerr0rif it's possible for the foreground application to completely take over the whole touchscreen, that's a problem...20:29
eccerr0rthat's the case for my 5230 for the native icq client, but at least the hardware buttons could break out of the application)20:30
kerioeccerr0r: there's little to no task switching on iOS20:30
keriofor a precise reason20:30
kerioand applications are always fullscreen, in some way20:31
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thedead1440kerio: the specs war has made even iOS capable to mult-task in different ways... see:
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keriohey, it's still a bsd kernel underneath20:34
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thedead1440indeed but due to the specs war things which were once unthinkable are now doable with work-arounds on iOS too20:34
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keriodo you guys reckon that /usr/include can be optified?20:39
Sc0rpiuswell in the iOS case no task switching is "great"20:40
Sc0rpiusI have an iPad 2 that I use a lot and the battery last AGES20:40
Sc0rpiusand that's great though20:40
Sc0rpiusI would sacrifice multitasking for that in a phone20:40
Sc0rpiusmy N900 lasts like 4 hours in 3G20:41
lufSc0rpius: my colleague tested linux on Apple HW and said it's 6h on batteries for iOS versus 1,5 hour for linux20:42
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keriook, optified include20:43
kerioi hope everything goes well20:43
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DocScrutinizer05guess who's top bandwidth hog on our rmo20:46 43200 IN  PTR
cehtehare the repositories back?20:48
DocScrutinizer05which also means our throttling of top10 non-APT-maemo clients to 75kBit/s works just fine20:48
DocScrutinizer05cehteh: basically yes20:48
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: i had a less-than-10kb/s download to prove you wrong20:49
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DocScrutinizer05cehteh: we're just facing quite a few bandwidth problems20:49
* cehteh just hits 'update'20:49
cehtehlucky you that i dont have 1k devices :P20:49
DocScrutinizer05kerio: you prove me wrong? on what, Sir?20:49
kerioon the fact that it doesn't work just fine! >:c20:50
cehtehlooks stuck here20:50
DocScrutinizer05the fact that you didn't get >75kBit/s proves it's working excellent20:50
eccerr0rwill there be a round robin mirrored r.m.o sometime?20:51
DocScrutinizer05sometime, maybe20:51
lufDocScrutinizer05: let's shutdown the r.m.o. and nobody can get >75kBit/s ;)20:51
eccerr0rGentoo portage would suck if it were all dumped ont one server...20:51
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DocScrutinizer05luf: hahaha20:51
lufDocScrutinizer05: let's try to count how long it takes to download 9MB (extras-dev) abd 3,5MB (testing or tools) with 10kBit/s speed ...20:52
eccerr0ris there an etiquette of updates, like Gentoo tries to stop people from syncing more than once a day...20:53
DocScrutinizer05luf: I could put on the blacklist manually20:53
DocScrutinizer05luf: why do you think I'm interested in such silly math games?20:53
DocScrutinizer05isn't that for kindergarden?20:53
lufDocScrutinizer05: fell free to do it. My wife will appreciate it.20:53
DocScrutinizer05honestly, I didn't come here to get flames for trying to manage available bandwidth for you >:-(20:54
lufDocScrutinizer05: Maybe I red it wrong but it seems to me you're satisfied with the current situation.20:54
DocScrutinizer05read again!20:55
DocScrutinizer05cehteh: just another 1k? pfff20:56
eccerr0ris it mostly the repository indexes that's being hammered or actual package files?20:56
eccerr0rso the index.20:56
Estel_kerio, I don't get the dillema20:56
lufDocScrutinizer05: I'm sorry I'm too tired today.20:56
DocScrutinizer05and suckers running wget against whole repo, which we throttled down to 75kBit/s now20:56
Estel_if bq27x00 is calibrated, use it for everything20:56
infobotsomebody said mirror was
Estel_bars, percents, capacity, everything20:57
Estel_If not, use capacity, bars, etc from hald-addon-bme (but current and voltage still from bq27x00)20:57
Estel_if bq27x00 isn't available at all (no module loaded) use hald-addon-bme20:57
Estel_problem solved20:57
kerioEstel_: my question is different20:57
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Estel_now, it uses prorities properly, but still take bars from rx51 or god knows what20:58
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: ack20:58
Estel_= it sayd 47% but shows full bars on battery20:58
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kerioEstel_: install +kerio120:58
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  ?20:58
keriobut that's not my question, really20:58
Estel_kerio, I know, thanks20:58
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: you're right20:58
Estel_but why you have disabled everything except bq27x0020:58
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  ah, thanks20:58
keriomy question is, should hald-addon-bme report the data from bq27k? it's supposed to be the "official" way to get battery data in maemo20:59
keriotogether with libbmeipc20:59
Estel_and how it gets data now?20:59
kerioif so, then the battery applet becomes just a frontend for hald-addon-bme, and it makes more sense20:59
eccerr0rI need to get a copy of the reflash images someday. seems has died too :(20:59
kerioEstel_: from the modules, but stuff like "design" is taken from rx51, for instance20:59
Estel_kerio, ok, it's dillema for future, but now, why won't we set applet to do priorities as I just said21:00
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: fsck "design", make that 1320 hardcoded!21:00
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kerioalso, pali seems fixated in wanting to use design when he should be using full_charge21:01
Estel_well, as said bq27x00 when available, if uncalibrated, take capacity and % from whatever else (hald-addon-bme from rx51), and if no module at all, take everything from hald-addon-bme (rx51)21:01
DocScrutinizer05maybe with a way to override the defualt on module load time, with a module parameter21:01
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  won't happen, Pali doesn't want to use anything non-upstreamed on bq27x0021:01
Estel_so no custom Maemo settings21:02
kerioDocScrutinizer05: indeed ._.21:02
Estel_unless someone make patch and upstream it - to make parameter at load time accepted - no way :/21:02
DocScrutinizer05this shit is FULL OFF maemo settings21:02
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  but upstreamed21:02
DocScrutinizer05starting with 20mR value of RS21:02
Estel_he just doesn't want to make maintaining harder21:02
Estel_which is quite understandable. Well, seriously though, just screw it and do as proposed, bq27x00 when available and calibrated, and everything else if not21:03
DocScrutinizer05how t f will maintaining get harder when you assume sane defaults and implement a standard way to override them?21:03
DocScrutinizer05particularly when compared to the alternative that seems like using random generator for "design capacity"21:04
Estel_I would add middle-variant of bq27x00 available but not calibrated - in such case, everything *ėxcept* capacities and % would be from bq27x00 too, - but i can live without this variant, too21:04
kerioEstel_: my issue is that we should, instead, get hald-addon-bme to report the correct values instead21:04
kerioin hal-device bme21:04
kerioso the battery applet becomes everything-agnostic21:04
Estel_kerio,  I have no opinion here, as long as end-user result is what I said - bq27x00 > rx51_battery21:04
Estel_I don't care how it's processed internally, frankly21:05
Estel_I just want this applet to consider 3 simple variants, no matter if it's frontend, half backend, or whatsnot21:05
Estel_afaik nothing else cares about capacity21:05
kerioreporting correct values in /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/bme is better21:05
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Estel_well, BTW, why not make hald-addon-bme follow same rules?21:06
kerioand also making the battery applet use last_full instead of design21:06
Estel_if bq27x00 is available pand calibrated, hald-addon-bme takes everything from it21:06
keriobecause why the hell should i care of how full the battery is compared to when it was built?21:06
Estel_so, as i said.21:06
kerioyes, as you said21:06
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DocScrutinizer05we got hald-addon-bme replacement that should hide any hw side differneces from hal and thus from battery applet21:06
Estel_if bq27x00 not calibrated but available, take everything from bq27x00 too, but capacity and percent from rx51_battery21:06
kerioDocScrutinizer05: indeed, but it's not what the replacement battery applet does, for compatibility with hybrid situations21:07
Estel_if no bq27x00 at all, hald-addon-bme takes everything from rx51_battery21:07
Estel_problem solved21:07
keriowhat does rx51_battery provide, anyway?21:07
DocScrutinizer05have fun with that, guys21:07
eccerr0rare there mirros for the reflash images and flasher? or do we have to wait till nokia fixes their server?21:07
infobotit has been said that mirror is
Estel_I think in long run we don't need to care about hybrids, as bq27x00_battery ism part of replacement, as much as new hald-addon-bme21:08
kerioEstel_: the problem is that pali will start going "i want the battery applet to work even when users have stopped bme and loaded the kernel modules", except in a more broken english21:08
Estel_but, for now, some hybrid approach may be feasible21:08
Estel_kerio, nope, as user is never meant to stop replacement bme21:08
Estel_as replacement bme doesn't interfere with anything21:08
keriocoff coff i2cget coff coff21:08
Estel_You MUST NOT stop replacement bme21:08
eccerr0rahh, ok.21:09
Estel_what do you need i2c access with replacement bme for?21:09
kerioeccerr0r: i'm not sure about the long-term solution for that21:09
Estel_I just released new version of my BNF scriptset, that replaces everything that relied on i2c, for relying on bq27x00 (and failsback to i2c if no module). If I was able to do it overnight, others can too21:09
Estel_do we need i2c for anything else?21:10
DocScrutinizer05~skeiron is hte semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources: http://
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay21:10
eccerr0rneed to set up a bittorrent :D21:10
DocScrutinizer05infobot:  no, skeiron is the semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources: http://
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay21:10
kerioDocScrutinizer05: no fremantle/tools21:11
eccerr0rhow loaded down is skeiron, or is there a time of day that would be better for me to download it?21:11
keriooh, there is, but the bzip2ped Packages is broken21:11
Estel_kerio, DocScrutinizer05, any other practical uses for i2c other than battery chip info?21:12
Estel_kerio, anyway21:12
Estel_if no bme available, but module is loaded, use it. If module available but not calibrated and no bme, use this damn design value and show middle finger21:12
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: there are like several dozen subsystems on 3 I2C busses, on N90021:12
Estel_problem solved anyway21:12
Estel_just two more IF's21:12
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  I know21:12
DocScrutinizer05eccerr0r: don't worry21:13
Estel_I just wonde if we use i2c raw access for any practical purpose except battery chip21:13
DocScrutinizer05use it and profit21:13
DocScrutinizer05who's "we"?21:13
eccerr0rokay.  since these are fairly large files :D21:13
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  we - "family" of maemo related people21:13
Estel_i.e. anyone ever used it for anything else and lived to tell the tale21:14
Estel_and produce something productive using it21:14
DocScrutinizer05no, "we" usually don't care about I2C, there are kernel drivers doing that for us21:14
Estel_thats what I thought21:14
Estel_if someone want raw i2c access21:14
Estel_he can disable bme and live with innacurate battery capacity readings for fckin 5 mins21:14
DocScrutinizer05yup, that's the general tale21:15
DocScrutinizer05if you want access an I2C chip directly, you first need to unload the kernel module driver21:15
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kerioanyway, we should convince pali to provide the most correct data in hald-addon-bme21:16
Estel_kerio, to convince Pali to anything, You MUST create a wiki page21:16
* infobot starts crying and hides from estel_ in the darkest corner of the room. :(21:17
Estel_as til tommorow no one will remember simple solutions from today, posted on irc21:17
Estel_btw that pun over Pali's english wasn't nice, kerio21:18
Estel_reminds me of tetowaki's bitching yesterday21:18
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.21:19
kerioEstel_: i feel somewhat authorized to mock him, i'm not a native english speaker either21:19
Estel_ohp thanks21:20
kerioand it shows, sometimes, but i put the effort in at least :s21:20
Estel_~#maemo must is also ~211921:20
infobotokay, Estel_21:20
Estel_~#maemo musn't is also ~211921:20
infobotokay, Estel_21:20
keriodoesn't work that way i think21:20
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, must is ~211921:20
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kerioinfobot: no, must is <reply>see 211921:20
Estel_it was what I meant21:20
infobotkerio: okay21:20
Estel_even better21:21
kerioinfobot: no, mustn't is <reply>see 211921:21
infobotkerio: okay21:21
infobotwell, must is ~211921:21
kerioah crap21:21
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i screwed up default must in infobot21:21
keriois there a way to recover it?21:21
Estel_infobot, no, must is The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.21:21
infobotEstel_: okay21:21
infobotmust is, like, ~211921:21
kerioinfobot: no, #maemo must is <reply>see 211921:22
infobotokay, kerio21:22
kerioinfobot: forget about must21:22
infobotkerio: i didn't have anything called 'about must' to forget21:22
kerioinfobot: forget must21:22
Estel_~forget must21:22
infoboti forgot must, kerio21:22
kerioinfobot: forget mustn't21:22
infoboti forgot mustn't, kerio21:22
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kerioinfobot: #maemo mustn't is <reply>see 211921:22
infobotokay, kerio21:22
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.21:22
keriothis was harder than it should've been21:22
infobotsomebody said musn't was ~211921:22
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.21:23
kerioinfobot: forget musn't21:23
infoboti didn't have anything called 'musn't' to forget, kerio21:23
kerioinfobot: forget #maemo musn't21:23
infobotkerio: i forgot #maemo musn't21:23
Estel_~forget mustn't21:23
infobotEstel_: i didn't have anything called 'mustn't' to forget21:23
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.21:23
Estel_infobot: #maemo musn't is <reply>see 211921:24
infobotokay, Estel_21:24
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infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.21:24
keriowtf is "musn't"21:24
Estel_must not?21:24
Estel_so blame my english too ;)21:25
kerioinfobot: forget #maemo musn't21:25
infoboti forgot #maemo musn't, kerio21:25
Sc0rpiusit should be mustn't21:25
Sc0rpiuseven though it is pronounced musn't but it is mustn't21:25
Estel_damn, it's harder to write than must not21:25
Sc0rpiusyeah hehe21:26
Estel_yes yes, got my brainwave activated again, about it21:26
Estel_thanks anyway21:26
DocScrutinizer05don't mess with infobot factoids when you don't know what you're doing21:32
DocScrutinizer05~forget _default mustn't21:32
infobotDocScrutinizer05: i didn't have anything called '_default mustn't' to forget21:32
DocScrutinizer05~unforget _default mustn't21:33
infobotDocScrutinizer05: that factoid was not backedup :/21:33
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DocScrutinizer05~forget _default musn't21:35
infoboti didn't have anything called '_default musn't' to forget, DocScrutinizer0521:35
Estel_we cleaned it up, afterwards.21:35
Estel_anyway, kerio, you ~must create wiki page to convince Pali about anything... Installing your fixed deb, thanks!21:35
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: i was confused by the channel prefix :(21:38
kerioanyway, any generic factoid for "must" is clearly stupid21:39
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: yep, that can get confusing sometimes. Zhe more important is to check a factoid with ~literal <factoid> before redefining it21:54
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: however, I must say I don't see how a #maemo specific refernece to RFC2119 makes more sense than a _default factoid for 'must' (if there ever been any)22:05
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WizardNumberNextkerio: ping22:34
WizardNumberNextwhat do I have to put on 3.8rc3 cmdline?22:35
WizardNumberNextor it was Pali22:35
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WizardNumberNextkerio: it is Pali22:41
WizardNumberNextPali ping22:41
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n900-dkAnyone able to download shortcutd atm? Fails when I try to install via HAM23:12
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WizardNumberNextn900-dk: are you trying to use rmo?23:17
n900-dkyeah, it downloads but gives 'Hash Sum mismatch'23:18
kerion900-dk: from which repo? -devel?23:18
keriouse extras-devel.merlin1991.at23:18
WizardNumberNextask somebody else, then - I cannot even connect at the moment23:18
M4rtinKn900-dk: I'm also getting hash mismatch23:19
n900-dkkerio: rmo - extras-devel23:19
M4rtinKon every package I've tried so far23:19
kerioyeah, use merlin1991's mirror23:19
keriois the bestest23:19
n900-dkkerio: thx23:19
M4rtinKwell, I would rather like to know what's wrong :)23:20
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M4rtinKmaybe it gets corrupted during to the excruciatingly slow download ? :)23:20
kerionah, it's just that the last repo update was interrupted somehow23:22
keriopossibly due to the migration23:22
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: it's most probably a bug in autobuilder23:23
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: ping23:23
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: you looked into that, together with thedead1440, no? Could you enlighten us please what's been your findings and conclusions23:24
teotwakiFindings: "It doesn't work". Conclusion: "It still doesn't work".23:25
M4rtinKso recently built packages might be corrupted ?23:25
M4rtinKI'll try something older23:25
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki: not helpful23:25
teotwakiDocScrutinizer05: it's jolly banter, it's not supposed to be.23:26
n900-dkHow much bandwidth do we have for rmo?23:26
kerion900-dk: not enough23:27
n900-dkkerio: :)23:27
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: I'm trying libavutil4923:28
M4rtinKlast update is from 2011, so it should be free from any autobuilder induced corruption23:29
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: installed fine23:29
n900-dkOh, seems like it's 25mbps  - wonder what the bandwidth was before. 25mbps is also quite a lot for not so many n900s23:31
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M4rtinKit seems to be maxed most of the time23:33
M4rtinKBTW, the akamai statistics showed about 40k N900s23:33
DocScrutinizer0540k maemo devices23:34
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M4rtinKoh yeah ale all the N<90023:35
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: so there's still 10k n810s?23:36
n900-dkbut still, as long as they don't attack rmo at the same time, I guess 25mbps could be enough23:36
DocScrutinizer05it's not23:37
DocScrutinizer0540k = 0.5 updates / second23:37
DocScrutinizer050.5 update = 3, 5 or 8 MB / 223:38
DocScrutinizer054MB /s = 40Mbit/s23:38
DocScrutinizer05plus we got other leechers too23:39
DocScrutinizer05though we throttled the 10 worst of them23:39
teotwaki4MB/s = 32Mbit/s23:39
teotwakiok, ok, I'll stfu.23:39
DocScrutinizer05better, before you lose23:40
DocScrutinizer05when I start about overhead23:40
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teotwakithe TCP overhead on small files is ridiculous23:40
teotwakiFTP is even worse.23:41
DocScrutinizer05this is HTTP afaik23:41
teotwakiaye, which is why I said "FTP is even worse"23:42
* ShadowJK would guess 1-2k overhead23:42
n900-dkCould be interesting to see the MRTGs23:42
teotwakiMRTGs are roughly useless on file servers.23:42
teotwakitop and iftop, and sar, are the only useful tools.23:43
DocScrutinizer05is what I use23:43
teotwakiDocScrutinizer05: what's the iowait on the server?23:43
DocScrutinizer05top is not interesting any more, since varnish dropped CPU load to 98% idle23:44
teotwakitop; s0.123:44
DocScrutinizer05top - 21:43:37 up 11 days,  3:46,  1 user,  load average: 0.07, 0.11, 0.1423:44
DocScrutinizer05Tasks: 110 total,   1 running, 109 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie23:44
DocScrutinizer05Cpu(s):  0.1%us,  1.0%sy,  0.0%ni, 91.9%id,  4.7%wa,  0.0%hi,  1.0%si,  1.3%st23:44
DocScrutinizer05Mem:   2049296k total,  2032840k used,    16456k free,    44388k buffers23:44
DocScrutinizer05Swap:  2097144k total,    17860k used,  2079284k free,  1284840k cached23:44
teotwakiso still 5% iowait23:44
teotwakionly GB ram?23:45
n900-dkso the 25mbps are maxed all day?23:45
teotwakis/y/y 2/23:45
infobotteotwaki meant: only 2 GB ram?23:45
DocScrutinizer05yes, all day23:45
DocScrutinizer05and night23:45
WizardNumberNextonly 1 user?23:45
WizardNumberNextthat is very uncommon23:45
teotwakiWizardNumberNext: one tty23:45
teotwakiWizardNumberNext: it would be uncommon to see more than 3 on a server.23:46
WizardNumberNextI see, I got it wrong23:46
n900-dkHow much extra will they charge us for 50mbps?23:46
WizardNumberNexttop tells me 20 users, but I have multiple sessions of konsole all around 9 dekstops23:46
WizardNumberNextbut 4.7 wait is really a lot23:47
teotwakiWizardNumberNext: yeah, even for a desktop that's a lot23:47
teotwakiWizardNumberNext: not quite, want to see the output of one of my servers?23:47
keriowait, what's "wait" in cpu measurement?23:48
WizardNumberNextteotwaki are you using i386 to get more then that?23:48
WizardNumberNextwait is waiting for pretty much everything23:48
n900-dkoh, they will add it for free? Or just temporary?23:48
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: Thanks!23:48
keriowhy would you use cpu to wait? :o23:48
teotwakitop - 22:48:59 up 75 days,  5:24,  1 user,  load average: 1.23, 1.20, 1.2023:49
teotwakiTasks: 105 total,   2 running, 103 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie23:49
teotwakiCpu0  : 16.3%us,  2.7%sy,  0.0%ni,  6.6%id, 72.4%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  2.0%st23:49
teotwakiCpu1  :  0.3%us,  0.3%sy,  0.0%ni, 99.3%id,  0.0%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st23:49
teotwakiMem:   4194304k total,  4183076k used,    11228k free,    96812k buffers23:49
teotwakiSwap:  2097144k total,       92k used,  2097052k free,  3332500k cached23:49
WizardNumberNextbecause not everything can be written to use interrupt in common-sense23:49
ShadowJKkerio; waiting for disk I/O23:49
teotwakidisk or network23:49
kerioin a busyloop?23:49
WizardNumberNexttop - 21:47:56 up 14 days,  8:14,  2 users,  load average: 0.22, 0.15, 0.1123:50
teotwakiin this case, this server streams binary logs from a fileserver, parses them and inserts the lot of data in a mysql server23:50
WizardNumberNextTasks: 359 total,   1 running, 358 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie23:50
WizardNumberNextCpu0  :  0.1%us,  0.2%sy,  0.1%ni, 99.4%id,  0.1%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.2%si,  0.0%st23:50
WizardNumberNextCpu1  :  0.1%us,  0.2%sy,  0.1%ni, 99.3%id,  0.3%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st23:50
WizardNumberNextCpu2  :  0.1%us,  0.2%sy,  0.1%ni, 99.5%id,  0.1%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st23:50
WizardNumberNextCpu3  :  0.1%us,  0.2%sy,  0.0%ni, 97.4%id,  0.1%wa,  0.0%hi,  2.2%si,  0.0%st23:50
WizardNumberNextMem:   8169012k total,  7835824k used,   333188k free,   808400k buffers23:50
WizardNumberNextSwap:  2097148k total,        0k used,  2097148k free,  3777192k cached23:50
WizardNumberNextmy server23:50
keriodude, excessive23:50
WizardNumberNextwhy I have to use CPU to to idle?23:51
teotwaki14  days of uptime is pretty shit for a server :)23:51
kerioWizardNumberNext: you don't, that's the unused cpu23:51
WizardNumberNextteotwaki: 3.6.11-rt25 hunged on kvm23:51
teotwakilemme try and find one of our other beasts, hang on23:51
ShadowJKkerio; no not busyloop. In Linux 2.2 it was included in idle number instead23:52
* DocScrutinizer05 yawns and heads out23:52
WizardNumberNextP.S. that's on 800MHz in 99,999% of time23:52
WizardNumberNextI have to load core to 95% to jump to next higher frequency23:53
M4rtinKjust 4 logical CPUs ? :)23:53
ShadowJKplease no more pastes23:53
M4rtinKpfft :)23:53
M4rtinKour lab has (multiple ?) 48 log-cpu compute servers23:54
WizardNumberNextand 65% will put it to next lower frequency (tweaked C'n'Q and cpufreq-conservative)23:54
WizardNumberNextM4rtinK: that is my home-server! I do not need anything more powerfull23:54
M4rtinKany top that has line-per-cpu is pretty much unusable on them :)23:54
WizardNumberNextit is overkill already - my first one was AMD Athlon 65023:55
M4rtinKpretty nice, generates global Monav routing data in 5 hours :)23:55
kerioM4rtinK: but what if you want to know precisely what the cpu #33 is doing?23:55
M4rtinKgrep ? :)23:55
ShadowJKkerio; WA is like "cpu idle, but there are processes waiting to run that can't run because system is waiting on data"23:56
kerioi see23:56
ShadowJKFor example a cp of a big file will make WA go to almost 99%23:57
WizardNumberNextor NFS on one of my 372GiB HDD23:57
ShadowJKBut if you simultaneously run a cpu hog, WA will be 0% because the cpu will just run the cpu hog while I/O is in progress23:57
WizardNumberNextstrangly SAMBA have no problem23:57
merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: pong23:58
WizardNumberNextstrangly one of 400gb SATA HDDs is very slow with NFS (unusble for anything above few KiB), but on SAMBA there is nothing like that happening - happily swolows everything what is thrown at it23:59

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