IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2013-02-04

kerio	sniffing is passive, polling is active	00:00
Estel_	well, true	00:00
Estel_	you actually talk to i2c, not just read data	00:00
Estel_	like with registers file	00:00
Estel_	traps, traps everywhere!	00:00
Estel_	excuse my specifinc sense of humour, while scripting new version on bme, I'm in "coding" madness ;)	00:01
Estel_	scripting sadness	00:01
Estel_	etc	00:01
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luf	freemangordon: Welcome back man. What about you health? Is it better now?	00:06
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Estel_	Pali, sorry for interrupting you, but I got small dillemda related to your newest implementation of bq27x00_battery as in newest kp's	00:30
Estel_	as you remember, there were earlier version of that module in olders KP's, that had wrong calculations	00:31
Estel_	there is still a chance that someone may be using it, though	00:31
Estel_	now, I want to check, in my script, that bq27x00_battery is loaded= but only the "fixed" one	00:31
Pali	irrelevant for bme replacement which working only with >= kp52	00:31
Estel_	now, how to distinguish it from older one on older kernels?	00:32
Estel_	well, my script works with or without bme replacement	00:32
Pali	use uname for kernel version	00:32
Estel_	it uses bq27x00_battery exported data, and if not, i2cget	00:32
Pali	$ uname -r	00:32
Estel_	well, kernel present != module loaded	00:32
Pali	check if exists dir /sys/class/...	00:32
Estel_	of course I though about that, but I don't want to force usage of this module on BNF users, even if the6're kp users	00:32
Estel_	sure, but it exist for older kenrnel too	00:33
Estel_	and old module with wrong values	00:33
Pali	check kernel version	00:33
Pali	$ uname -r	00:33
Estel_	at the same time... hm, ok	00:33
Estel_	thanks	00:34
Estel_	btw on which version of KP you've fixed bq27x00_battery, Pali?	00:34
Estel_	since which version?	00:34
Pali	I do not know, I fixed different problems in different versions	00:35
Pali	and now I see that in upstream kernel and kernel-power temperature of bq27x00_battery is reported in bad units	00:35
Pali	kernel api say that it should be reported in 1/100°C but bq27x00_battery report it in 1/10°C	00:36
Estel_	0_o deja-vu	00:36
Pali	rx51_battery reporting temperature in 1/100°C	00:36
Pali	I do not know if changing it in kernel-power is good idea	00:36
Estel_	do you remember ammount of false bug reports, when you've changed it? :P	00:37
Pali	but I will sent patch to upstream kernel	00:37
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Estel_	sure	00:37
Estel_	if they accept it, then bring it to kp	00:37
LinuxCode	when will this hash sums stuff be fixed for extra-devel ?	00:37
LinuxCode	I cannot seem to install some packages from extra-devel because of it	00:37
Pali	Estel_, see: https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/2/3/274	00:38
LinuxCode	does the CSSU kernel have hardware support for aes ?	00:38
LinuxCode	http://maemo-community-mailing-lists.2589537.n2.nabble.com/N900-AES-and-SHA1-MD5-hw-acceleration-drivers-td5495027.html	00:38
LinuxCode	I cam across this	00:38
jacekowski	yes	00:38
Pali	LinuxCode, do you mean omap AES support?	00:38
LinuxCode	yes	00:39
Pali	no	00:39
jacekowski	no?	00:39
Pali	yes	00:39
jacekowski	kernel power had aes support	00:39
Pali	no kernel support	00:39
freemangordon	it needs some special NOLO	00:39
Pali	it needs special x-loader	00:39
jacekowski	not that special	00:39
jacekowski	it's only one mshield register that is set differently	00:39
freemangordon	jacekowski: hmm?	00:39
Estel_	well, truecrypt would benefit like hell from hardware aes support, I suppose	00:40
LinuxCode	will I start a war, if I ask if it will be in eventually ?	00:40
LinuxCode	Estel_, so would dm-crypt	00:40
* Estel_ nods		00:40
freemangordon	Estel_: IIRC according to benchmarks HW is slower than SW	00:40
Pali	I asked nokia developer and he told me that special x-loader has included special binary blob in secure mode which doing something whith mshield	00:40
LinuxCode	ever since I heard reports that the UK police will now just read people's mobiles out	00:40
LinuxCode	I am feeling distinctly uneasy	00:40
Pali	something which cannot be configured from kernel or nolo	00:40
Estel_	never though we have smth like it. Well, even without hw aes, twofish and serpent works quite fast, still	00:41
Estel_	freemangordon, was afraid about smth like that	00:41
freemangordon	jacekowski: we don't have code in kernel running in secure mode	00:41
jacekowski	freemangordon: it's not about secure mode	00:41
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Pali	jacekowski, do you have some more info about it?	00:41
jacekowski	freemangordon: it's about enabling the hardware, and that is controlled by mshield stuff	00:41
Estel_	freemangordon, so any reason to use hw aes "acceler"?	00:41
Estel_	LinuxCode, about police - ha ha, I would like to see one reading N900's encrypted content	00:42
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jacekowski	freemangordon: according to benchmark HW AES was faster than SW	00:42
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Estel_	just be sure to have lock code set to 5 minutes	00:42
Pali	>> You need special boot loader, because it has secure code to enable it.. You cannot do it from non-secure side. <<	00:42
jacekowski	freemangordon: as in, someone tried it in this channel	00:42
Pali	>> Nolo has binary blob for that. <<	00:43
freemangordon	jacekowski: ok, my memories are vague. However, we can't change anything but AUX reg from the kernel. And we don;t have the keys to sign PPA application	00:43
Pali	>> In order to use AES hw it is necessary to enable it during boot from Secure side. It is done by special code which is compiled as part of bootloader. <<	00:43
LinuxCode	so I guess we wont see it then	00:43
Estel_	lets slice clod brute force on keys during every kp and cssu installation	00:43
Estel_	;)	00:43
Pali	this is what nokia developer told me	00:44
freemangordon	Pali: could there be some call to the secure monitor?	00:44
Estel_	LinuxCode, don't be sad, though - IDK why, but on N900, serpent seems fastest during benchmarks	00:44
Estel_	no idea why	00:44
Estel_	as we have more support for twofish and aes, theoretically	00:44
Pali	but I have that special flasher, x-loader, nolo and source code of kernel drivers	00:44
jacekowski	freemangordon: we don't have to	00:44
freemangordon	Pali: the problem is that it is only for one HW revision iirc	00:45
Pali	freemangordon, I asked that nokia developer and he told me that it is not possible	00:45
jacekowski	freemangordon: once bootloader enables it, you can use it fine from unsecure kernel	00:45
freemangordon	jacekowski: sure, but we don;t have that bootloader	00:45
Pali	freemangordon, all 21xx and 22xx have same xloader and nolo	00:45
jacekowski	freemangordon: we do	00:45
freemangordon	hmm, ok	00:45
Pali	so that is not for one but for more hw revision	00:45
Estel_	there are only two revisions in practical existence, and another 2 virtually non-existent now	00:46
jacekowski	someone linked it like 2 years ago in this channel	00:46
DocScrutinizer05	since the signature is same for all hw rev	00:46
LinuxCode	only reason why I mentioned AES hw support is, that surely there will be power savings	00:46
Pali	jacekowski, do you know if it is possible to enable it from non secure side?	00:46
freemangordon	Pali: I doubt that will be possible	00:47
jacekowski	from limited amount of information i could find about mshield, yes it is possible	00:47
jacekowski	if mshield is configured to allow it	00:47
jacekowski	so that is no in our case	00:47
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, does the extra-devel repo need updating or something, I keep getting hash sums mismatches, which then means I cant install stuff	00:47
Pali	jacekowski, do you have some information about mshield?	00:47
jacekowski	Pali: very limited	00:47
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: the key is expired	00:48
LinuxCode	merlin1991, mentioned something about rebuilding/re-checkign that ?!?!	00:48
Pali	I was not able to find anything	00:48
jacekowski	Pali: mostly marketing stuff	00:48
jacekowski	Pali: no real technical info	00:48
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, elaborate please	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: ask pali about it, he knows all the details	00:48
LinuxCode	gpg key used for signing ?	00:48
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Pali	jacekowski, ok	00:48
DocScrutinizer05	err, or maybe I'm completely wrong	00:48
Pali	LinuxCode, GPG key on downloads.maemo.nokia.com was expired	00:49
LinuxCode	ahh k	00:49
Pali	so SSU and OVI repositories not working	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	I guess the extras(-devel) is autobuilder related	00:49
Estel_	LinuxCode, either use apt directly, or fapmanp or red pill mode	00:49
LinuxCode	so how can I disable gpg key checks for extra-devel ?	00:49
LinuxCode	well I did apt	00:49
LinuxCode	it bitches there too	00:49
Estel_	if 3th option, then disable those superiority of signed content in options	00:49
DocScrutinizer05	merlin1991 and thedead1440 should know what's the problem with hashsum	00:49
Pali	extras-devel is on maemo.org	00:49
Pali	and GPG key is without expiration date	00:49
LinuxCode	hmmm	00:49
Estel_	LinuxCode, maybe you're using some mirror?	00:50
LinuxCode	I tried to install cryptfs	00:50
LinuxCode	Estel_, let me double check	00:50
Estel_	LinuxCode, why the hell encrypt home?	00:50
LinuxCode	no extras-devel	00:50
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LinuxCode	r.m.o	00:50
freemangordon	Pali, jacekowski: I guess we can disassemble xloader with and without that mshield stuff and check what needs to be dome	00:50
Estel_	You're keeping that confidential non-police-eyes data on opt, or what?	00:51
LinuxCode	Estel_, ?	00:51
Estel_	truecrypt partition seems more reasonable re performance and power savings	00:51
Estel_	well, I wonder why do you want to encrypt whole $HOME	00:51
LinuxCode	I havent done anything yet, I just want to install a few things from extra-devel	00:51
Pali	freemangordon, that nokia developer wrote me that he included into x-loader/nolo some binary blob without source code	00:51
LinuxCode	without getting the error	00:51
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Estel_	there is GUI'fied (without sacrificing CL) latest TrueCrypt in repos	00:51
Estel_	just repartition your emmc or sd card and encrypt whole partition via truecrypt	00:52
Estel_	or two of them	00:52
Estel_	one for less-secure things, and then config maemo to keep addressbook, mails, passwords, settings, photos and videos there...	00:52
LinuxCode	that is one option	00:52
Estel_	and auto-mount it at boot time, just provising password and keys	00:52
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: Estel_ is in a rage, he highlighted you on accident	00:52
LinuxCode	k	00:52
Estel_	wtf?	00:53
Estel_	no, I don't.	00:53
LinuxCode	so, how do I fix this hash sums issue for extras-devel ?	00:53
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LinuxCode	that would really help me out ;-}	00:53
Estel_	actually, we're talking about encyption, and you interlooped, DocScrutinizer05 ;)	00:53
LinuxCode	also stop me from hammering the repo twice	00:53
Estel_	LinuxCode, no idea about repo key, but as for your needs about encrypting, it seems to me that truecrypt is more feasible	00:54
Pali	according to http://omappedia.org/wiki/Bootloader_Project there is linux tool generate_MLO which is MShield signing tool	00:54
Estel_	such partition mounted at boot time ensures that all your private things are saved there. If you have lock code, no one can ever bypass it without rebooting device...	00:54
Estel_	which always unmount said partition	00:54
freemangordon	Pali: sure, you just need the keys :D	00:54
LinuxCode	Estel_, I know	00:54
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Estel_	= no one, thief or police, will access your photos, addressbook, mails etc	00:54
LinuxCode	Estel_, Im just exploring options atm	00:55
Estel_	I see	00:55
Estel_	well, just tiving advice, as I was through all this before	00:55
Estel_	checking every encryption option ;)	00:55
LinuxCode	I must admit though, I kind of like the patch I saw, where one has to enter the /home key at boot	00:55
Estel_	sure, but it hurts performance and battery life for whole device	00:55
LinuxCode	because that would confuse anyone who is not a linux user	00:55
Estel_	confidential data or not	00:55
LinuxCode	Estel_, well, why would truevrypt have better performance ?	00:56
Estel_	because, when you encrypt whole /dev/mmcblk0p2 , you also do so for many programs	00:56
Estel_	that don't need it's data encrypted	00:57
LinuxCode	ohh I wouldnt do that	00:57
Estel_	every second in your device runtime = accessing some encrypted thing	00:57
LinuxCode	I already resized the partitions	00:57
Estel_	well	00:57
Estel_	/home/user/.config	00:57
Estel_	;)	00:57
Pali	freemangordon, btw, we have in maemo kernel mshield RNG driver	00:57
LinuxCode	because I previously hit the 2GB max limit	00:57
Estel_	so why to encrypt home at all?	00:57
Pali	which is not in upstream kernel	00:57
Pali	RNG = random number generator	00:58
Estel_	just prepare separate encrypted partition and throw there everything that need to be encrypted, symlinking it	00:58
Estel_	so, for example, mailbox settings or addressbook	00:58
LinuxCode	Estel_, I will do that with dm-crypt	00:58
jacekowski	hardware AES is still pretty slow	00:58
LinuxCode	I think	00:58
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: we have an expired signing key on Nokia SSU, we have hashsum errors on maemo (probably introduced by autobuilder, ask merlin1991 and thedead1440 and brkn about it)	00:58
freemangordon	Pali: http://beagleboard.googlecode.com/files/signGP.c, this is for BB GP aiui	00:58
Estel_	well, why not	00:58
jacekowski	if i remember numbers correctly it's somewhere aroudn 15M/s	00:58
jacekowski	for hardware	00:58
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, k	00:58
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: and we have a repo.m.o that's slow like molasses	00:58
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Estel_	LinuxCode, using truecrypt, I have some nice gui window loaded just after hildon-desktop, that ask for password and/or keys	00:59
freemangordon	Pali: scratch that, it does nothing	00:59
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, yeah, but I am wondering if partially people are double hammering the server , because of it	00:59
LinuxCode	HAM downloads twice the same package, then asks if ya want to give up	00:59
Estel_	if not provided, addressbook is empty as in fresh device, no mail accounts, etc	00:59
Estel_	yet everything seems to work	00:59
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: the mirrors mostly have the hashsum problem as well, afaik. One has not as it didn't pick up on the faulty original rmo (aiui)	00:59
LinuxCode	Estel_, I saw a set up like that yes, just over-mount /home/opt or whatever	00:59
teotwaki__	"ask for password and/or keys"	00:59
teotwaki__	So, where do you get the keys from? A USB fob?	01:00
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, I see	01:00
Estel_	teotwaki, keys can be files too	01:00
Pali	freemangordon, I know what signGP.c doing	01:00
Estel_	you have whole N900 of file candidates :)	01:00
Estel_	mixing it with passwords is quite nice	01:00
teotwaki__	Estel_: what's the point of having the keys on the device, if it's just to query for the password?	01:00
Estel_	it may be something from mydocs, or from opt, pr from anywhere	01:00
teotwaki__	Either way, you can't revoke the certificate remotely, you can't do anything that would be a benefit when using keys.	01:01
Estel_	because possible passwords * all files on device * all combination of those files is more than just password?	01:01
LinuxCode	merlin1991, ping	01:01
teotwaki__	you're just adding 1 bit of entropy	01:01
Estel_	certificate? I'm not sure if we're talking about same thing	01:01
Estel_	no, certainly not	01:01
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: same screwed thinking that makes devels store pop3 passwords in obfuscated form in a config file	01:02
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Estel_	I'm talking about truecrypt encrypted partition, which uses password and first 1MB of data from every key file (no limit of ammount of key files)	01:02
Estel_	to encrypt	01:02
Estel_	and then decrypt	01:02
teotwaki__	oh fucking hell, stop drinking the truecrypt koolaid.	01:02
Estel_	not to mention random pool which is irrelevant, btw	01:02
Estel_	hm?	01:02
Estel_	technical arguments against it or it doesn't happened :P	01:03
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teotwaki__	if you store the keyfiles on the same device, there is no added security.	01:03
teotwaki__	There is an added security bias, but no added security.	01:03
Estel_	seriously? so how anyone is supposed to know which files to use even with known password?	01:03
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: futile	01:03
Estel_	well, I'm asking about technical answer	01:04
Estel_	if my thinking is wrong, I'll gladly confirm it	01:04
DocScrutinizer05	maybe by using file `find /` ?	01:04
Estel_	and?	01:04
teotwaki__	Because if truecrypt can use the files, it means it has to validate those files as valid input, which means it's either just a hash (which is a terrible way to decrypt files), or the files can be found through find -exec.	01:04
Estel_	wrong.	01:04
teotwaki__	right.	01:04
Estel_	it doesnt validate them	01:04
Estel_	it uses everything you throw at it	01:04
teotwaki__	So it's just a hash of the first 1MB.	01:04
Estel_	and it doewsn't event know if partition is really encrypted	01:04
Estel_	until you feed it with correct password and keyfiles	01:05
teotwaki__	which is about as useful as a plaintext string written down in /etc.	01:05
Estel_	nope.	01:05
DocScrutinizer05	yes	01:05
Estel_	first of all, truecrypt have no idea if partition is encrypted or just random	01:05
Estel_	second, it have no idea about files you're throwing at it	01:05
DocScrutinizer05	the shellscript to "crack" this "encryption level" is about one line, and takes about 20 min runtime on N900	01:06
Estel_	hash or not, one have to physically test mixing every keyfile with password, during bruteforcing	01:06
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, suuure, elaborate more	01:06
teotwaki__	Estel_: but you agree the device is stolen	01:06
teotwaki__	Estel_: and the files are on the device	01:06
Estel_	teotwaki, sure	01:06
Estel_	yep.	01:06
teotwaki__	so bruteforce time has little impact	01:06
teotwaki__	yet all the info needed is still on the device	01:06
teotwaki__	it's just a matter of time, correct?	01:06
Estel_	it have, when it's more than lifetime of sun ;)	01:07
teotwaki__	And you can eliminate any file under 1MB	01:07
Estel_	nope	01:07
Estel_	files underr 1MB can be used too	01:07
Estel_	it's just that it parses up to 1MB of file	01:07
DocScrutinizer05	if there are 10000 files to test, this is equivalent to 2 more chars in your password	01:07
DocScrutinizer05	roughly	01:07
Estel_	and treat is as part of random data input due encryption, methinks	01:07
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, wrong as usual	01:07
teotwaki__	Estel_: it's just pseudo entropy.	01:07
Estel_	you don't know if you need 2 files, one, or 10	01:08
DocScrutinizer05	as your usual?	01:08
Estel_	+ anu combination	01:08
DocScrutinizer05	then I agree	01:08
Estel_	s/anu/any/	01:08
infobot	Estel_ meant: + any combination	01:08
Estel_	you don't even know if there is key file at all	01:08
teotwaki__	Estel_: and do you really think that people will click on 10 or 20 files, in the right order, everytime they restart their phone?	01:08
DocScrutinizer05	insulting as usual, and clueless as estel usually is	01:08
teotwaki__	Oh no, that's right, they'll do it once, forget the combination, and then come cry here on how to reset it.	01:08
Estel_	teotwaki, I restart it ~once per month, so yes	01:08
Estel_	:P	01:08
Estel_	since I uploaded truecrypt to devel, no one ever did that	01:09
LinuxCode	wth	01:09
FIQ	truecrypt for maemo?	01:09
Estel_	and it have some big pool of users, even if 1/10of downloader use it :P	01:09
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FIQ	how exactly does that work	01:09
LinuxCode	there is a password and username for ddownloads.maemo.nokia.com lol ?!?!	01:09
Estel_	FIQ, since ages?	01:09
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LinuxCode	or was	01:09
teotwaki__	or maybe, they will not forget it, but because their phone is always on 24/7, for 8 months at once (ZOMG uptime of 183 days!), you just need to press the unlock button, and have access to the... that's right, the decrypted partition.	01:09
Estel_	FIQ, gimme a second	01:09
Estel_	teotwaki, nope.	01:10
Estel_	if phone is stolen or seized	01:10
Estel_	one need to reboot it at least once to get pass lock code	01:10
Estel_	either reflash or easy crack	01:10
Estel_	either reflash or easy crack	01:10
LinuxCode	Estel_, why dont you give FIQ a how to	01:10
teotwaki__	Estel_: you do realise I've deployed security systems for banks and governments, right?	01:10
Estel_	anyway, part get unmounted	01:10
LinuxCode	there are a few	01:10
FIQ	a how to for truecrypt? I don't feel I need it	01:10
LinuxCode	FIQ, k	01:11
FIQ	Just curious how it worked for maemo	01:11
Estel_	FIQ, I'll link you to thread about truecrypt on maemo	01:11
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: no he doesn't realize	01:11
teotwaki__	just put the files on a usb fob, use the host mode to retrieve the files during boot, and don't keep the fob and the phone together. Done.	01:11
Estel_	just a minute	01:11
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: futile	01:11
FIQ	Estel_: sure	01:11
Estel_	teotwaki, sure, that's and option	01:11
Estel_	but, frankly, it all depends on what you're securing	01:11
Estel_	I haven't said that it is feasible to encrypt boot-time mounted partition wit keys	01:11
teotwaki__	Estel_: it's the only option, yours doesn't even pass FIPS	01:11
Estel_	99% of times, password is enough	01:12
teotwaki__	and that 1% of the time	01:12
Estel_	for more touchy data, use encrypted partition that is mounted only when you need it	01:12
Estel_	or hidden partition inside outer one	01:12
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teotwaki__	they'll use a $2 pair of scissors and make you unlock the focking phone.	01:12
teotwaki__	s/foc/fuc/	01:12
infobot	teotwaki__ meant: they'll use a $2 pair of scissors and make you unlock the fucking phone.	01:12
Estel_	well, that's outside of scope and can be used against any security anywhere	01:13
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Estel_	on usb stick too	01:13
FIQ	teotwaki__: now you remind me of a certain xkcd	01:13
Estel_	yea	01:13
Estel_	it's popular one	01:13
teotwaki__	FIQ: I had that xkcd happen to me, or rather, a project I worked on.	01:13
Estel_	teotwaki, frankly, my setup is low-security partition mount at boot time for photos, addresbook etc	01:13
FIQ	http://xkcd.com/538/ found it	01:14
Estel_	so random thief/finder won't access my photo	01:14
Estel_	or addressbook or configs	01:14
teotwaki__	We deployed a Chip&Pin system for a bank in the UK. The bank gave its customers a small device they could slide their card into, type their PIN, and get either an OTP to login to the website, or a CR to authorise transactions.	01:14
Estel_	or whatever	01:14
teotwaki__	A couple months after it was deployed	01:14
teotwaki__	a couple of french dudes got tortured inside their apartment, after two days of torture, both of them died.	01:14
Estel_	+ I use 2nd partition notmounted at boot time, that I keep empty just in case i ever need to store something secure	01:15
Estel_	for this purpose, I have script to encrypt swap too	01:15
teotwaki__	The thieves used the bank's device to validate whether the kids were telling them the right PIN.	01:15
Estel_	of course tracker etc keeps away from both partitions	01:15
* DocScrutinizer05 thought for random finder/thief we got device lock code		01:15
Estel_	despite what you're trying to say, I see this layout both practical and feasible ;)	01:15
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, lol, in the UK ?	01:15
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, bullshit, as easy reflash will reveal mydocs	01:15
LinuxCode	I have one fo those	01:15
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: aye	01:15
Estel_	with photos	01:15
Estel_	etc	01:15
LinuxCode	you would just give people the pin then call the bank and police after	01:16
LinuxCode	who cares about the money	01:16
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: not if you're dead when they leave.	01:16
Estel_	teotwaki, but it isn't any argument against security	01:16
LinuxCode	was that in the news ?	01:16
teotwaki__	yeah, big story	01:16
teotwaki__	hang on	01:16
Estel_	it doesn't have anything to do for passwords	01:16
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: sure?	01:16
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, I hope this wont be a story in the Sun or Daily Mail	01:17
Estel_	and you still haven't told me why storing keys on device is no better than key-less setup, security wise	01:17
Estel_	against bruteforce crack	01:17
* DocScrutinizer05 thinks Estel_'s info is obsolete since PR1.3		01:17
Estel_	and I don't mean bruteforce as in scizzors :P	01:17
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Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, hm?	01:17
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: it was in 2008	01:17
Estel_	I'm sure that reflashing allows me to boot device without lock code question	01:17
Estel_	even if lock code is set	01:18
DocScrutinizer05	you probably could reflash a PR1.2 image though	01:18
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, k gfound it	01:18
Estel_	it isn't changed, but not asked	01:18
LinuxCode	I must have missed that	01:18
Estel_	unless you enable it again	01:18
teotwaki__	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Cross_double_murder	01:18
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, it was several hours not days	01:18
FIQ	isn't there a master lock code?	01:18
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: my bad	01:18
LinuxCode	but yeh, then you just give them your pin	01:18
FIQ	in case lock code is forgotten	01:18
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: nope	01:19
FIQ	which basically renders lock code useless if you know the algoritm	01:19
LinuxCode	call the police call bank, you will get the mney back	01:19
FIQ	oh okay	01:19
Estel_	FIQ, during device reflash	01:19
Estel_	asking for lock code is removed	01:19
LinuxCode	as you werent reckless...	01:19
Estel_	so you can boot device and access mydocs etc freely	01:19
LinuxCode	anyway	01:19
Estel_	on pr1.3 too	01:19
FIQ	then what's the point?	01:19
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: and iirc in PR1.3 you need to flash eMMC too, to reset / disable the lockcode	01:20
FIQ	that being said	01:20
Estel_	also, after that, you may use either john to crack lock code in 3 seconds, or qwerty's file to reset it	01:20
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, wrong	01:20
Estel_	did it zillion of times	01:20
FIQ	nothing is impossible, you can just make stuff harder for evil people	01:20
Estel_	no need to flash emmc ever, to achieve anything	01:20
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: actually, the reason why banks are pushing for Chip&Pin is because it moves all liability to the customer.	01:20
FIQ	but not impossible	01:20
Estel_	no need to flash emmc ever, to achieve anything	01:20
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FIQ	that's how I see on things anyway	01:20
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, of course, but that has already been proven as ineffective	01:20
FIQ	DocScrutinizer05: ok	01:20
LinuxCode	by security researchers	01:20
Estel_	that's why I was just to said that I don't held bank and goverment security in high regard	01:20
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: look at the booklet/contract you got when you got your chip&pin card, it says that if you disclose your PIN, you are not legible for reimbursement.	01:21
Estel_	when you told me about working on it	01:21
Estel_	just didn't wanted to be inpolite	01:21
LinuxCode	in Africa they use biometrics	01:21
teotwaki__	bwhahahahaha	01:21
teotwaki__	biometrics	01:21
LinuxCode	better than chip and pin	01:21
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teotwaki__	no, definitely not.	01:21
LinuxCode	eye vein scan	01:21
Estel_	+1	01:21
teotwaki__	biometrics is a hollywood gimmick.	01:21
Estel_	too much s-fi	01:21
LinuxCode	or something	01:21
FIQ	it isn't better	01:21
LinuxCode	better than chip and pin	01:22
FIQ	drug the user down, force him to authencate	01:22
teotwaki__	you don't use public information to authenticate a person	01:22
FIQ	problem solved	01:22
Estel_	it reminds me or idiotic programs for laptops	01:22
FIQ	*authenticate	01:22
teotwaki__	FIQ: not even that, fingerprints can be recovered at the mark's building, car, office, bus.	01:22
Estel_	that use face image	01:22
Estel_	to login	01:22
Estel_	or users photo	01:22
Estel_	:P	01:22
FIQ	teotwaki__: that too :P	01:22
Estel_	well, best security is multi-layered one	01:22
FIQ	though it looks cool!	01:22
teotwaki__	face image or retinal scan can be obtained with $2000 worth of equipment from 200m distance.	01:22
Estel_	if attacker doesn't know number of layers required, it's even bette	01:23
Estel_	r	01:23
teotwaki__	Chip&Pin is infinitely better than biometrics	01:23
FIQ	(biometric auth that is)	01:23
teotwaki__	it has its faults, but still	01:23
Estel_	thats why i still think that keyfiles the way truecrypt uses them is still better than nothing, and it certainly complicates things	01:23
Estel_	teotwaki, now interesting thing	01:23
teotwaki__	Estel_: just drop it.	01:24
Estel_	truecrypt allow you to have set of password and keyfiles for partition revealing data	01:24
Estel_	and other set for same partition	01:24
Estel_	revealing other data	01:24
Estel_	without limit of number of such layers	01:24
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teotwaki__	so just steganography	01:24
Estel_	no technical possibility to determine if there are more layers inside	01:24
Estel_	nope	01:24
Estel_	you may reveal 10layers	01:24
Estel_	due to exortion	01:25
DocScrutinizer05	complicates things, yes, a lot! ... for the user	01:25
FIQ	sounds like it would allow multiple partitions on one place which could have other uses	01:25
Estel_	and no one will be ever sure if there is no 11 one	01:25
teotwaki__	it is steganography... you hide indistinguishable information in meaningful information	01:25
Estel_	no way to determine if empty space is just encrypted empty space or some data in another layer	01:25
Estel_	not exactly	01:25
teotwaki__	yes, exactly.	01:25
Estel_	not even truexcrypt knows if partition contain it	01:25
Estel_	nope, as in steganography it is still obtainable	01:26
teotwaki__	...	01:26
DocScrutinizer05	that multilayer stuff to create plausible deniability causes even more torture	01:26
Estel_	if you forget how many layers you have or password/keyfiles for it, no fuckin way to even determine it was even there	01:26
DocScrutinizer05	since they never will stop until you die	01:26
Estel_	aka plausible deniability	01:26
teotwaki__	"I heard the definition of steganography 10 years ago on hackersnews, so now I know that all steganography is based on hiding text in pictures"	01:26
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, at this point you will not know yourself how many layers you had	01:26
Estel_	so they still won't get what they want	01:27
Estel_	as you're dead anyway, no loss for you	01:27
teotwaki__	there's no secret big enough to die for	01:27
Estel_	teotwaki, please, read what plausible deniability is	01:27
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +q !@Maemo/community/contributor/Estel-		01:27
teotwaki__	fuck off you twat	01:27
FIQ	"you're dead, no loss for you"	01:27
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FIQ	sounds positive eh	01:27
FIQ	or not	01:27
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FIQ	*Pk	01:28
teotwaki__	I try to have an educated discussion with you, Estel_, and this is how you treat people? By patronising them on things they probably worked on during their masters?	01:28
*** ChanServ sets mode: -q !@Maemo/community/contributor/Estel-		01:28
Estel_	teotwaki, pathetic way to lose discussion by use chanop "quiet" :/ I'm dissapointed in you	01:29
FIQ	that's an interesting cloak	01:29
Estel_	bye, will return when you won't be drunk...	01:29
teotwaki__	drunk/	01:29
teotwaki__	right.	01:29
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*** gn00b has joined #maemo		01:29
teotwaki__	because anyone who doesn't agree with you is a drunk.	01:30
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: futile, toldya	01:30
teotwaki__	indeed	01:30
teotwaki__	"No, but you have to understand that abusing your operator powers by silencing people who disagree with you is wrong."	01:30
FIQ	estel doesn't sound like a contributor but that might just be me	01:30
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Estel_	well, if you don't want to discuss ig with me, just stop. silencing or kickung via chanop is pathetic kindergarden	01:31
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: I actually wondered where's that cloak from	01:31
teotwaki__	Estel_: and patronising people and acting like a dick isn't?	01:31
FIQ	DocScrutinizer05: from council	01:31
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FIQ	according to an old meeting	01:31
FIQ	old council members got that cloak	01:31
Estel_	btw, plausible deniability is something different from steganography, and you could educate yourself, before attacking others. Some concepts shared, some different.	01:31
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: nope, council cloak is council	01:31
teotwaki__	FIQ: i'd rather he has the contributor cloak than the council one which he abused for ages.	01:31
FIQ	when they left	01:31
Estel_	teotwaki, patronizing. said guy who stopped civilized discussion by logging to chanop?	01:32
Estel_	pathetic	01:32
DocScrutinizer05	ooh	01:32
FIQ	DocScrutinizer05: yes but not when they left	01:32
DocScrutinizer05	I see	01:32
Estel_	I'm out, go and try "educated discussion" in real life	01:32
teotwaki__	Estel_: when did I say plausible deniability was the same as steganography, exactly?	01:32
Estel_	by jumping with punches and silencing others that doesn't share your point of view.	01:32
teotwaki__	I silenced you because you were a dick.	01:32
Estel_	we'll see where it leads you	01:32
Estel_	sure	01:32
Estel_	so enjoy yuor extended e-penis now, bye.	01:33
FIQ	bye Estel_	01:33
teotwaki__	Estel_: my e-penis has been big and hard for ages, no need for you to increase its size, but thanks for lowering yourself to viagra.	01:33
teotwaki__	That feels better :)	01:34
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teotwaki__	sorry for flaming and trolling, by the way. I'm done.	01:34
*** lbt_away is now known as lbt		01:35
DocScrutinizer05	main problem are guys who know they're right, know it so certainly that they never even smell when somebody maybe has yet a better idea about that particular topic	01:36
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, I was like that when I was 16	01:36
DocScrutinizer05	often leads to patronizing	01:36
LinuxCode	with my first proper g/f, she put me right, quickly	01:36
LinuxCode	hehe	01:36
LinuxCode	then you feel dumb, and stop doing that	01:37
kerio	i bet she does, i bet she does	01:37
LinuxCode	because you realise you were a twat	01:37
kerio	nudge nudge saynomore	01:37
teotwaki__	You had your first proper girlfriend at age 16?	01:37
LinuxCode	kerio, I am 34 now	01:37
teotwaki__	Dude, hand in your geek card.	01:37
kerio	hah	01:37
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, lol, when I say proper, I mean longer than 1 year	01:37
DocScrutinizer05	LinuxCode: what if everybody teling you that you're twat but you just don't listen?	01:37
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, then it makes you look stupid	01:38
teotwaki__	You had a relationship that lasted over a year?	01:38
LinuxCode	very stupid indeed	01:38
kerio	LinuxCode: we heard the first time, hand in your geek card	01:38
teotwaki__	stop lying! We all know humans who date for over a year don't know how to operate IRC, just Facebook.	01:38
kerio	and your n900 priviledges are revoked, go buy an iphone	01:38
LinuxCode	iphone......	01:39
FIQ	hahah	01:39
teotwaki__	Or an S3, if you're feeling adventurous.	01:39
kerio	teotwaki__: and whatsapp!	01:39
* LinuxCode throws up a little		01:39
FIQ	S3 isn't that bad	01:39
kerio	teotwaki__: isn't the nexus4 about the same, but cheaper?	01:39
teotwaki__	kerio: actually, he's 34, so he probably has a decent job now...	01:39
teotwaki__	kerio: yeah, but you can't get one xD	01:40
LinuxCode	so..... now you all made fun of me.... how do I tell apt not to bitch about this expired key crap	01:40
kerio	apt won't bitch about the expired key	01:40
LinuxCode	it bitches about hash sums, and mentions the expired key	01:40
kerio	you'll sometimes get a "install these packages without verification?"	01:40
kerio	hash sum mismatch is a critical error	01:40
LinuxCode	kerio, ok, so is this something local I can fix	01:41
kerio	'this glass is empty, how do i drink water from it anyway?'	01:41
LinuxCode	it is only with extras-devel	01:41
kerio	LinuxCode: use a mirror	01:41
teotwaki__	best comment on slashdot this week, a guy trying to explain Steve Jobs is dead: http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3429511&cid=42774203	01:42
kerio	for instance, extras-devel-light	01:42
teotwaki__	"Steve is in the iCloud now. Someone tried turning him off and then back on again. In an appeal to hipsters, he's gone underground to sell more macs. He is permanently 404. There is no way he could have had anything to say about this. There is no app for that. Get it?"	01:42
kerio	deb http://extras-devel.merlin1991.at/ fremantle free non-free	01:42
LinuxCode	k	01:42
LinuxCode	thank you	01:42
kerio	it's a really nice mirror, supports pdiffs, only lists the latest versions, and doesn't afraid of anything	01:43
teotwaki__	grammar error	01:43
LinuxCode	so is this a direct copy of extra-devel, but just works ?	01:43
* DocScrutinizer05 just noticed that you probably can detect such an individual (twat, partonizing, overly self esteem type) by none of their statements about factoids they think to know about ever gets qualified by them adding link a sounrce of info, or by a "probably", "iirc" or similar indication that they might be wrong on this one		01:43
FIQ	pdiff=?	01:43
kerio	FIQ: incremental changes in Packages	01:44
FIQ	hmmmm	01:44
kerio	so you don't end up downloading the whole 9mb on each update	01:44
FIQ	yeah I understand, but...	01:44
teotwaki__	DocScrutinizer05: don't know if that one is for me as well, but I've learned a long time ago, especially when talking about bugs or deliveries, to speak in the conditional tense, and say "we" instead of "I".	01:44
FIQ	doesn't that mean it has to keep a diff of every single version?	01:45
kerio	FIQ: the repository does	01:45
FIQ	yeah	01:45
kerio	but no	01:45
FIQ	repo	01:45
teotwaki__	when the CRM dude asks an update: "We have not been able to reproduce this problem, however, it would appear to be related to..."	01:45
kerio	just from a version to the next	01:45
FIQ	and if I have a really old version?	01:46
teotwaki__	or for deliveries, "As planned, we should be able to provide you with..."	01:46
kerio	FIQ: then apt will download the whole file	01:46
FIQ	makes sense	01:46
kerio	and from then on, partials :)	01:46
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teotwaki__	or simply when they're being idiots, "Being relatively swamped with work, I shall attempt to provide you with an answer within the new 24 hours."	01:46
FIQ	so it basically use pdiff if the version I had in question was archived	01:47
FIQ	and a diff can be made of it	01:47
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: wasn't specifically for you	01:47
teotwaki__	which can be explained, later on, as "I only promised to try and get back to you within the next 3 business days."	01:47
teotwaki__	24 hours, 3 business days, getit? :P	01:47
teotwaki__	s/new/next/	01:48
kerio	FIQ: much easier, it stores the diffs	01:48
Estel_	FIQ, despite you don't see me as contributor, I've promised you a link to truecrypt on Maemo:	01:48
Estel_	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81435	01:48
kerio	repos are static, in nature	01:48
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, what was syntax for factoids only applicable to #maemo?	01:48
kerio	whenever the maintainer changes something, files are created/added	01:48
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FIQ	ty	01:48
Estel_	I wouldn't want every infobot user tog et redirected to tmo thread when asking about truecrypt, ya know	01:49
teotwaki__	well	01:49
teotwaki__	this should answer your question	01:49
teotwaki__	~french	01:49
infobot	Vous pouvez obtenir de l'aide sur Debian sur le canal #debian-fr - For help in french, please join #debian-fr	01:49
DocScrutinizer05	<#channel> factoid-key	01:49
FIQ	ohhh so you're given a contributor cloak when you release a devel package? interesting	01:49
teotwaki__	FIQ: no, you're given a cloak when you ask for it	01:50
DocScrutinizer05	hehe, yes	01:50
DocScrutinizer05	basically	01:50
FIQ	teotwaki__: I see	01:50
teotwaki__	FIQ: you want one?	01:50
FIQ	I guess you have to have some kind of reason though	01:50
* kerio felt special :(		01:50
Estel_	~#maemo truecrypt is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81435	01:51
infobot	okay, Estel_	01:51
FIQ	teotwaki__: well I don't think I've done significant contributions to the community besides minor help in tmo	01:51
Estel_	~truecrypt	01:51
infobot	methinks truecrypt is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81435	01:51
Estel_	well, seriously, I never asked for contributor cloak	01:51
Estel_	it isn't provided when you release a package	01:51
Estel_	I have no idea who gave it to me and when, and I don't care either - still, it's nice to know that someone respect my small and humble contributions	01:52
FIQ	speaking of contributions	01:52
FIQ	should try and get an overview of maemo stuff that could benefit from being localized	01:53
FIQ	"maemo stuff" aka things provided by CSSU	01:53
Pali	freemangordon, that special nolo is completly different as nolo in PR.1.3 FW	01:54
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FIQ	and untranslated things in core maemo (mostly terminal applications)	01:54
Pali	I have diff between two objdump	01:54
Estel_	and teotwaki, frankly, I shouldn't ever bother talking to you, but... You know, I've fought for freedom of my country at not-so-long-ago times, when you were put in prison for it. I'm really not one, who will get "terrorized" by some random, pathetic dude, talking about dicks and just happening to have chanop here. I thought you were partner for educated discussion, when you pinged me about my discussion with someone else, re encryption.	01:54
Estel_	I was wrong, it seems, as you turned out to be regular dickhead	01:54
Skry	teotwaki__: I want one if it's that easy	01:54
Estel_	in real world, we call those people bandits	01:54
teotwaki__	I went to prison? That's news to me.	01:55
Estel_	here, call yourself whatever you want, and still pretend that you're better due to your master degree or whatever, even if yo7're just talking BS and ending discussion in disgracing way of logging to chanop operator status	01:55
Estel_	well, you may re read it without being drunk.	01:55
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05		01:55
Estel_	or not	01:55
* kerio braces		01:55
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer05		01:55
* kerio unbraces		01:56
Estel_	in fact, it's quite end of topic for me	01:56
DocScrutinizer05	then shut up NOW	01:56
* Estel_ shrugs		01:56
teotwaki__	Estel_: that's nice. Have a great evening.	01:57
teotwaki__	hmm	01:57
teotwaki__	DocScrutinizer05: do you remember who the Group Contact is for Maemo?	01:57
Estel_	same to you :) everyone loves happy endings.	01:57
FIQ	DocScrutinizer05: just wondering, were red pill settings window available in non-cssu maemo?	01:57
DocScrutinizer05	X-Fade:	01:57
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: if you enable it	01:58
DocScrutinizer05	~red-pill	01:58
infobot	rumour has it, redpill is http://wiki.maemo.org/Red_Pill_mode	01:58
teotwaki__	well, apparently he is the person who assigns cloaks.	01:58
kerio	FIQ: in the latest couple of versions you can only enable it by editing the config file	01:58
teotwaki__	But I thought X-Fade completely stopped services for #maemo?	01:58
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: yes, and last such session been on a request by me	01:58
FIQ	kerio: yea but I wondered if settings was added by cssu	01:58
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, when will be autobuilder working?	01:58
FIQ	as it's not localized at all	01:58
DocScrutinizer05	when X-Fade fixed it, Pali	01:59
FIQ	unlike everything else in non-cssu maemo UI	01:59
kerio	FIQ: it wasn't added by cssu afaik	01:59
FIQ	ok	01:59
kerio	it's just... hidden	01:59
FIQ	yeah	01:59
FIQ	that might explain it not being localized	01:59
teotwaki__	We should make a list of people who need a cloak	02:01
teotwaki__	and send it to X-Fade by email.	02:01
teotwaki__	s/need/want/	02:01
teotwaki__	but seriously, I went to prison? Fucking A!	02:01
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: we/I did that just ~8 weeks ago	02:02
teotwaki__	DocScrutinizer05: well, then you forgot FIQ!	02:02
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: I also had trouble to parse that statement with prison. I think that "you were" was an "I could"	02:02
DocScrutinizer05	(FIQ) he didn't ask for a cloak	02:03
teotwaki__	He's being humble.	02:03
DocScrutinizer05	or he did ask but didn't fulfill the requirements to grant it	02:03
teotwaki__	Requirements?	02:04
DocScrutinizer05	there are	02:04
teotwaki__	There's requirements on a cosmetic icon?	02:04
DocScrutinizer05	defined on wiki somewhere	02:04
FIQ	[01:03:57] <DocScrutinizer05> or he did ask but didn't fulfill the requirements to grant it	02:04
FIQ	I did? :o	02:04
DocScrutinizer05	I don't know	02:04
teotwaki__	no wonder Nokia went down hill, so much bureaucracy even the FOSS Communities they inspired were riddled with it.	02:04
DocScrutinizer05	I said or	02:04
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FIQ	oh right	02:05
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki__: I think it's just a recommendation	02:05
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DocScrutinizer05	to give council a means to say "no"	02:06
linuxman44	wtf is this channel about?	02:06
DocScrutinizer05	wtf is /topic meant for?	02:06
FIQ	this channel is about the operating system maemo	02:06
FIQ	which I thought was obvious	02:06
FIQ	as it's written in topic, kinda :P	02:07
linuxman44	i think that has been mispelled	02:07
teotwaki__	linuxman44: did you come here from #freenode?	02:08
linuxman44	no	02:08
DocScrutinizer05	incredible, >>Registered : Jan 26 03:44:22 2013 (1 week, 1 day, 20:23:43 ago)<< and already a cloak	02:09
FIQ	who?	02:09
DocScrutinizer05	aah sorry	02:09
DocScrutinizer05	User reg. : Feb 29 01:40:39 2012 (48 weeks, 4 days, 22:27:26 ago)	02:09
linuxman44	the topic should be changed	02:10
teotwaki__	Why?	02:11
DocScrutinizer05	suggestions please!	02:11
linuxman44	'MEMO'	02:11
linuxman44	not maeamo	02:11
linuxman44	maemo*	02:11
DocScrutinizer05	bullshit	02:11
teotwaki__	not sure if troll or just really stupid	02:11
FIQ	are you are troll or just not informed?	02:11
bef0rd	he goes to harmattan and ask the same	02:11
FIQ	s/you are/you a/	02:11
DocScrutinizer05	indeed, or was that meant to be funny?	02:11
infobot	FIQ meant: are you a troll or just not informed?	02:11
bef0rd	I would say troll	02:11
LinuxCode	that ident rings a bell	02:12
DocScrutinizer05	i'd say bot	02:12
LinuxCode	I think we banned him in Fedora before	02:12
LinuxCode	a few months back	02:12
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FIQ	you can always check :P	02:12
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gry	"are you a troll or just not informed?" "or both?"	02:13
teotwaki__	Blargh, they don't make them as they used to	02:13
LinuxCode	[20:36] <linuxman> im ddosing fedora website	02:14
teotwaki__	Good trawls made you sweat and shed tears before you realised you'd been had.	02:14
LinuxCode	yep	02:14
LinuxCode	the troll	02:14
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Estel_	Pali, where one can find all most up-to-date bme replacement bits you've made?	02:14
LinuxCode	he cam in and claimed one of our contributors had died	02:14
LinuxCode	came*	02:14
Estel_	as per "user installablen	02:15
Estel_	not source code	02:15
teotwaki__	now we just get germans who scream "AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM" and "DRUNK DRUNK", and trolls that sound like poorly written jokes, a bit as if Joe Pasquale came 'round.	02:15
FIQ	LinuxCode: then the contributor proceed to join? :P	02:15
LinuxCode	FIQ, eventually yes	02:15
FIQ	heh	02:15
FIQ	gg troll	02:15
LinuxCode	I had a freenode admin chase him around	02:15
LinuxCode	all day	02:15
LinuxCode	banning him every chan he joined	02:15
FIQ	lol	02:16
LinuxCode	;-p	02:16
teotwaki__	I remember one guy on #boost	02:16
teotwaki__	who would PM people at random	02:16
teotwaki__	send them links to chicks' facebook pages and pictures	02:16
teotwaki__	and ask if they thought her hot, then claim he went to school with, that they were sluts, and they should convert to $religion.	02:16
Pali	Estel_, on: https://gitorious.org/rx51-bme-replacement and http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/rx51-bme-replacement/	02:17
FIQ	now that's an interesting way of trolling	02:17
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, I don't belive you're so bad with english as you oretend to be. Sentence "I did smth in times, where you went in prison for doing that" is quite easy to parse ;)	02:17
Estel_	or my english started to suck?	02:17
teotwaki__	it always sucked.	02:17
Estel_	s/where/when/	02:17
Estel_	well, thats true too!	02:17
teotwaki__	He thought it was a lot less funny when I rang up the IT department of his university (not that I ever did, but the troll got trolled)	02:18
Estel_	anyway, if you still talk about it - it was just about "when one were sent to prison for doing so"	02:18
teotwaki__	"was sent"	02:18
teotwaki__	were == plural.	02:18
teotwaki__	well, not quite.	02:19
Estel_	right. My bad	02:19
Estel_	or not	02:19
Estel_	anyway	02:19
Estel_	i think you got the message pretty well	02:19
Estel_	if not, well...	02:19
Estel_	Pali, thanks	02:19
teotwaki__	I didn't understand a word, which is why I replied "that's nice".	02:19
teotwaki__	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUQ1LXCA6t0	02:20
Estel_	no problem. In simpler words, I mean that some random funny guy with ego problems won't impress me by going berseker and logging into chanop, abusing virtual "strenght" to silence one, when discussions goes badly, as I've meet and fought such nadit behavior in real life	02:21
Estel_	which make you really, really pathetic in my eyes	02:21
Estel_	I hope that message went correct way, this time	02:21
teotwaki__	cool, cool-cool-cool.	02:21
Estel_	s/nadit/bandit/	02:21
teotwaki__	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IIrf_JSuQk	02:21
Estel_	I'm really to tired for clowns, though. Feel free to kick me from channel, anyone	02:22
teotwaki__	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9sTAJOOnCo	02:23
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: I told you to shut up	02:23
GeneralAntilles	Who's having fun? Are you guys having fun?	02:23
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DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: that's 2nd warning on a new case now	02:24
Estel_	moo, GeneralAntilles	02:24
DocScrutinizer05	the threat about instant ban as of a few days ago stays unaffected	02:24
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: yaaaay	02:24
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: sup buddy?	02:24
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: can I just say something?	02:25
Estel_	nice to see you after so much time :)	02:25
GeneralAntilles	I'm watching the Superbowl. :\|	02:25
GeneralAntilles	No. Shush.	02:25
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: your state produces a big pile of shit tv shows.	02:25
GeneralAntilles	My state?	02:25
teotwaki__	Florida.	02:25
GeneralAntilles	I don't think my state produces any TV shows	02:25
GeneralAntilles	that I know of, anyway.	02:25
GeneralAntilles	I mean, a lot of Cops is probably filmed down here	02:25
GeneralAntilles	but that just because every felon and escaped convict in the south runs to Florida.	02:26
GeneralAntilles	You can't die of exposure here.	02:26
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teotwaki__	Python Hunters, Billy the Exterminator (actually, that may be Louisiana, but same hick kind of show)	02:26
GeneralAntilles	Haha	02:27
Estel_	Pali, you have writtern all of those parts? I feel ashamed of not being able to write that proposition wiki page today	02:27
teotwaki__	I mean, we even get that shit on French TV, seriously.	02:27
Estel_	your productivity amazes me	02:27
GeneralAntilles	Python Hunters sounds really stupid.	02:27
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Estel_	(parts as in all those things that communicate with bits relying on bme, that many have said to be impossible to re-create, feasibly)	02:28
teotwaki__	Well, basically, it's just a bunch of dudes driving boats in the everglades, smashing through bushes and yelling "SNAKE!" "Is it a python?" "No."	02:28
GeneralAntilles	Are they state/federal officers?	02:28
teotwaki__	And the only pythons they find either have a bullet in their head, or have been run over.	02:29
Pali	Estel_, kernel drivers are written by me, hald-addon-bme was by freemangordon, libbmeipc was taken meego (which is open) and patched for our kernel drivers	02:29
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: nha, just some random joes as far as I can tell	02:29
GeneralAntilles	Sounds excruciating. Why are you watching it? :P	02:29
Estel_	still, it's outstanding work. May I ask about caveats, as I underastand it, it isn't finished and don't mimic everything yet?	02:29
Estel_	what doesn't work currently, as compared to closed bme?	02:29
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: no superball.	02:30
teotwaki__	bowl*	02:30
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GeneralAntilles	http://www.alsq-project.com/barf/bucket/pictures/now%20stop%20asking.jpg	02:30
Estel_	BTW, I wonder about feasibility of shutting device down if voltage is < 3000mV for 15 seconds straight, instead of 2800 mv, like now (in replacement)	02:30
Estel_	or, even better, making treeshold user-configurable	02:31
teotwaki__	Do they call it a superbowl, because that's the size of bucket people in front of the telly use to store booze, popcorn or other things they might consume during ad-riddled games?	02:31
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: you bastard, you so pre-empted me.	02:31
Estel_	Pali, basically, any thing like "if more than x seconds" is feasible?	02:31
Estel_	or would increase battery usage due to polling?	02:31
DocScrutinizer05	GeneralAntilles: hi mister CO	02:31
DocScrutinizer05	:-)	02:31
GeneralAntilles	Post-season college football games are called bowl games.	02:31
GeneralAntilles	It's derived from that.	02:31
Estel_	I mean, it must be some straight-now value, or we may use more complicated method?	02:32
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer05, howdy.	02:32
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GeneralAntilles	I don't feel any stronger.	02:32
DocScrutinizer05	lol	02:32
jonwil	I want to know why they call it football when most of the time you never even use your feet to interact with the ball...	02:32
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: so it's post-season?	02:32
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: and only super colleges can participate?	02:32
GeneralAntilles	teotwaki__, I'll go with that, sure.	02:32
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: you're so regretting saying a single line in the channel, right now, aren't ya?	02:33
Estel_	jonwil, because game where you use foot is called soccer there? :P	02:33
Estel_	patents, patents!	02:33
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GeneralAntilles	teotwaki__, I'm very bored. :P	02:34
GeneralAntilles	Alcohol isn't an option.	02:34
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: who's playing?	02:34
teotwaki__	Alcohol is always an option.	02:34
GeneralAntilles	49er's and Ravens	02:34
Estel_	btw, today brazillian judge denied apple right to call their products "iPhone" in brazil	02:34
teotwaki__	Unless you're considering refreshments at an AA meeting. Then alcohol isn't an option.	02:34
Estel_	due to someone registering iPhone name in 2000 in Brazil	02:34
DocScrutinizer05	http://privatepaste.com/14dc6d91dc <-linuxman troll in /query (not really funny)	02:34
Estel_	with apple trying to do the same 6 years later	02:34
LinuxCode	DocScrutinizer05, top tip, leave ban in place for 4 months	02:35
Estel_	revenge on/of patent trolls? New SW episode by disney	02:35
GeneralAntilles	teotwaki__, no alcohol for me. :[	02:36
Estel_	I doubt any troll uses static IP	02:36
Estel_	not to mention proxies	02:36
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teotwaki__	we didn't ban his IP.	02:36
Estel_	he uses same registered nick? 0_o	02:36
LinuxCode	Estel_, he does	02:36
LinuxCode	well ident	02:36
teotwaki__	he's not the sharpest cookie	02:36
Estel_	well, people never stop to amaze you.	02:36
LinuxCode	but always linuxman linuxman*	02:37
FIQ	he's an idiot	02:37
FIQ	in other words	02:37
FIQ	even to the trolls	02:37
Estel_	poor sob, so many other things to do in life...	02:37
teotwaki__	A bit like some german guy creating puppet accounts on tmo	02:37
LinuxCode	what else would you expect from a troll	02:37
Estel_	well, as for tmo trolls, anyone noticed guy called "Piotr"? seems like retard trolling on purpose	02:37
FIQ	LinuxCode: well at least some try to ban evade	02:37
FIQ	as that's typical troll acting	02:38
Estel_	btw it's "Peter" in polish language	02:38
LinuxCode	FIQ, for this imbecile, that is even too much effort	02:38
FIQ	lol	02:38
FIQ	no loss I guess :P	02:38
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: whatchabeenupto?	02:38
LinuxCode	I guess, if you go into freenode asking for a cloak every 5 mins	02:38
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: do you have a gun?	02:38
LinuxCode	a permanent ban, will come quicker than you could cough	02:38
teotwaki__	GeneralAntilles: there's some company in downtown miami causing us a lot of grief, mind shooting them? It's just a bunch of lowlife french criminals trying to live the american dream, nothing too bad.	02:39
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, I would be careful with suck requests lol, with all those "thought crimes" aka conspiracy to commit... , in the US	02:40
LinuxCode	such*	02:40
teotwaki__	LinuxCode: I'm not in the US, only GeneralAntilles can get in trouble ;)	02:40
Estel_	BTW I mentioned that guy on TMO due to strange fact - registered in 2010, most posts in last few days	02:40
Estel_	looks like someone's sub-account	02:41
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, ohh dont you worry, they extradite people for less	02:41
LinuxCode	teotwaki__, like the UK student, for running a torrent site here, which is not a crime here	02:41
teotwaki__	Yeah, I'm not too worried, I've got three passports. Just that will take the french administrations two years to figure out who to arrest.	02:41
LinuxCode	hehe	02:41
LinuxCode	kerio, thank you for that mirror	02:42
LinuxCode	it doesnt have the hash sums issue, and is quite fast too	02:42
LinuxCode	much appreciated	02:42
Estel_	you can always rape a young girl too, french goverment will surely give you sanctuary rights	02:42
Estel_	ask Polansky	02:42
Estel_	he will confirm	02:42
jacekowski	she was willing	02:44
Estel_	I know, just pulling his leg	02:45
Estel_	in fact this whole thing with polansky was quite pathetic from us side, but, anyway	02:45
Estel_	power complex couldn't stand anyone running from iron hand of justice, even if he actually was right	02:46
GeneralAntilles	teotwaki__, why do you ask?	02:46
GeneralAntilles	Ah	02:46
GeneralAntilles	lol	02:46
Estel_	jacekowski, still, I'm not sure if pedophile is much better than rapist	02:47
MrPingu	So we can conclude it's both bad ;)	02:48
MrPingu	Now, women pedophiles are becoming more common, here in the netherlands :o	02:51
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Estel_	~20580/60	02:57
infobot	343	02:57
Estel_	~19980/60	02:57
infobot	333	02:57
Estel_	Pali, which units bq27x00 reports time to empty in?	02:58
Estel_	reading from i2c and from /sys/class/power_supply/bq27x00_battery/time_to_empty_avg I get different reults	02:58
Estel_	if it's in seconds	02:58
Estel_	and not different by small factor	02:58
Estel_	but like 333 minutes vs 400 minutes	02:59
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Estel_	if it's in minuts*100, difference is even greater	03:00
Estel_	minutes*	03:00
Pali	Estel_, time values are in seconds	03:02
Pali	check if time%60 == 0	03:02
Pali	because bq chip reporting time values in minutes	03:03
Estel_	mhm, that's why i calculated in in public here via /60	03:04
Estel_	as per specification you've linked me to	03:04
Estel_	I'm just curious why it produces so different values... lemme check smth	03:04
Estel_	~24060/60	03:05
infobot	401	03:05
Estel_	well, maybe it's measurement moment difference, after all...	03:06
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damo22	~mobilehotspot	03:29
Pali	now I found that NOLO can send string error messages via usb to flasher	03:34
Pali	harmattan flasher using it, but fremantle not	03:35
Pali	maybe I will implement it in 0xFFFF	03:35
Pali	n900 NOLO sending that error strings	03:35
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Estel_	Pali, would be nice	03:48
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Estel_	damo22, you want to search repos for qtmobilehotspot	03:49
Estel_	as mobilehotspot is earlier, buggy implementation	03:49
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Estel_	qtmobilehotspot is based on mobilehotspot and carried concept to usable state	03:49
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damo22	i cant find qt versoin in stable repo	03:54
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Estel_	damo22, it may be in devel	04:28
Estel_	many stable things are in devel, sadly	04:28
Estel_	erm, who remember how mili-thing/1000 is called?	04:28
Estel_	nano?	04:29
* Estel_ is writing comments for almost-finished new version of bnf		04:29
Estel_	micro, it seems	04:31
MentalistTraceur	Off the top of my head, micro.	04:31
MentalistTraceur	Oh, beat me to it.	04:31
Estel_	oh, hello MentalistTraceur	04:32
MentalistTraceur	Waves	04:32
Estel_	wouldn't ever expect to meet you here outside CM, even less at thi hour	04:32
Estel_	s/thi/this/	04:32
infobot	Estel_ meant: wouldn't ever expect to meet you here outside CM, even less at this hour	04:32
Estel_	How is it in the "big politic"? ;)	04:33
MentalistTraceur	Yeah, I said I'd try to get on IRC more often.	04:34
MentalistTraceur	It's like the only place you end up with live updates if shit hits the fan, plus the most active council member and all the volunteers who do infra maintenance are largely on here.	04:36
Estel_	maybe you just need a irc bouncer? or not, as it would mean reading through 1000 lines daily, filtering out important discussions out of noise	04:36
Estel_	irc is great for latest and greatest, but also, extremely noisy	04:37
Estel_	and when I'm here it's even more noisy than usual :P	04:37
MentalistTraceur	As for "this hour", it's only 21:40 here.	04:38
MentalistTraceur	Usually I stay up way later.	04:38
MentalistTraceur	Granted, today I am actually expetionally in need of sleep.	04:38
Estel_	so have a nice night :)	04:39
MentalistTraceur	I'm not getting off yet - going afk for about 30 minutes though.	04:39
Estel_	btw in case you need a irc bouncer, you always have a free slot on mine ;)	04:39
MentalistTraceur	Thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on it if I end up feeling the need for one.	04:40
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Estel_	erm, do we have something like "depends on A or B"?	05:41
Estel_	bnf would now depend on either ic2-tools and/or feature bq27x00 module	05:42
Estel_	no idea how to set such dependency, though	05:42
Estel_	of course I could bump ic2-tool to provide some feature like bq27x00-chip-info, and ask Pali to make kernel-power provide the same, then, make bnf depend on it...	05:43
Estel_	still, it sounds silly	05:43
MentalistTraceur	I've only ever seen optional dependency on A or B being done with virtual packages, as your bq27x00-chip-info example.	05:49
MentalistTraceur	But I don't know for sure.	05:50
MentalistTraceur	Googling.	05:50
Estel_	googled already, haven't found straightforward solution... Thanks for checking it, too	05:51
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MentalistTraceur	Estel_: What about syntax like this: 'Depends: foo \| bar'	06:05
MentalistTraceur	I see some examples like that @ http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html	06:05
MentalistTraceur	but I'm not sure if I'm misreading it.	06:06
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Estel_	thanks, I'll check it	06:47
Estel_	MentalistTraceur, I just vaguely remember, that this syntax wasn't working for our apt, but I may remember it wrong, or it might have been fud	06:47
Estel_	~bnf	06:47
infobot	hmm... bnf is Backus Naur Form, a language for creating definitions for computer languages and other command sets. See the Jargon File for a good description of how it works.	06:47
Estel_	lol	06:48
Estel_	~BNF	06:48
infobot	i guess bnf is Backus Naur Form, a language for creating definitions for computer languages and other command sets. See the Jargon File for a good description of how it works.	06:48
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Estel_	infobot, no, #maemo bnf is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1211656	06:49
infobot	Estel_: okay	06:49
Estel_	~bnf	06:49
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, bnf is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1211656	06:49
Estel_	infobot, bnf is also Backus Naur Form, a language for creating definitions for computer languages and other command sets. See the Jargon File for a good description of how it works.	06:50
infobot	Estel_: i already had it that way	06:50
Estel_	~thanks	06:50
infobot	Estel_: bitte	06:50
Estel_	anyway, new version of ~bnf got released	06:50
Estel_	happy bnf'ing!	06:50
Estel_	more proper release (package) if/when autobuilder and repos start working properly	06:51
Estel_	~truecrypt	06:51
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, truecrypt is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81435	06:51
Estel_	~mugen-cover-mod	06:52
Estel_	~mugen-cover-mod is http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1038196&postcount=799	06:53
infobot	okay, Estel_	06:53
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Estel_	good night, it's 6AM here	07:01
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damo22	if i find the deb in devel, can i just scp it to my n900 and dpkg -i it?	08:07
damo22	or is that not recommended	08:07
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Estel_	kerio, there is something wrong with your reiplementation of battery applet	08:10
Estel_	while it shows capacity from bq, it still seems to compare against design/capacity	08:10
Estel_	so, when my 2635 mAh battery is charged to 1251, it shows 47% charged, yet, full green battery icon	08:11
Estel_	and on every plug disconnect, even shows "battery charged" banner	08:11
Estel_	of course, when plugged, it charges OK, despite banner message	08:12
Estel_	(I'm on Pali's bme replacement bits already)	08:12
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damo22	http://paste.debian.net/231555/ any ideas?	08:38
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thedead1440	damo22: is the .deb corrupted?	09:49
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damo22	thedead1440: i dont know, is there a md5sum built in?	09:59
damo22	one benefit of RPM over DEB i guess	10:00
damo22	:P	10:00
damo22	i enabled extras-devel as well as extras is that bad?	10:01
damo22	i think the deb i downloaded manually is dogpoo	10:01
thedead1440	the md5sum: 122e064408e3b0060dce987a9b5e7b40	10:02
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kerio	Estel_: i suppose that it would be better to use the bq27k percentual too	10:08
kerio	or possibly the bars	10:08
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kerio	damo22: extras-devel is a superset of extras	10:10
kerio	it's not harmful to keep both enabled, it's just useless	10:10
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damo22	kerio: that is good to know	10:17
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kerio	Estel_: would you be content with something that only uses bq and nothing else?	10:28
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ecc2g	i'm still kind of shocked that the n900 eats battery significantly faster than my 5230 nuron... (the n900 commandeered the nuron's bl5j...)	10:36
jonwil	Bear in mind that the 5230 is a much simpler phone	10:38
ecc2g	the bl5j is old so I don't expect long life but going a few days without using/charging isn't happening	10:38
jonwil	which doesn't run anywhere near as much stuff	10:38
ecc2g	it is indeed... just shocked how much more this uses...	10:39
kerio	ecc2g: with the screen on, it uses about 180mA	10:41
kerio	even with a kickass battery, you've only got 7 hours with the screen on, pretty much	10:42
ecc2g	I probably should get another cell. I stole the stock nokia branded and a japod from my nuron.	10:43
ecc2g	what's the 180mA breakdown like? I hope it isn't mostly the backlight...	10:46
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ecc2g	the transflective display is nice, probably contributes to backlight power...	10:47
ecc2g	stupid nuron completely washes out in sunlight	10:48
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kerio	ecc2g: 7mA for cell, 170 for backlight?	10:53
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kerio	Estel_: got a deb for you	11:09
kerio	Estel_: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1405219/status-area-applet-battery_1.0-3%2Bkerio1_armel.deb	11:10
kerio	source at https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1405219/status-area-applet-battery_1.0-3%2Bkerio1.tar.gz	11:10
kerio	seems to work, bq27x00 is the only source of data now	11:11
kerio	and it'll fail horrendously if it's not calibrated	11:11
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vi____1	hey kerio	11:24
kerio	sup	11:25
vi____1	did you calibrate that orange battery?	11:25
kerio	you betrayed me	11:25
kerio	yep	11:25
vi____1	and?	11:25
kerio	1400	11:25
vi____1	they why the F does my one say 1600?	11:25
kerio	how the F did you calibrate it?	11:25
vi____1	bq27x00 script	11:25
kerio	you're supposed to use constant-ish discharge when calibrating	11:25
vi____1	well fuck.	11:26
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vi____1	I calibrated by leaving internet streaming radio playing with the screen on max brightness.	11:27
vi____1	that is about as constant as you can get.	11:27
kerio	newp	11:27
kerio	also oh, it was a higher load than me	11:28
kerio	WHY DO YOU HAVE A BETTER BATTERY YOU ASSHOLE	11:28
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kerio	anyway, use a calibration script, calibrate overnight and a constant load	11:31
kerio	like, just the backlight	11:31
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fasta	How does warranty work with mobile phones?	11:55
fasta	The N900 is full of bugs.	11:56
fasta	Nokia said they won't fix it.	11:56
fasta	Can they just do that?	11:56
fasta	IMHO, they created a research product, which shouldn't have been distributed to consumers.	11:56
ShadowX	mm. they can :S	11:57
fasta	Perhaps all the manufacturers do the same thing.	11:57
fasta	What are you buying when you buy a piece of electronics then?	11:57
ShadowX	Its a war to make them fix the expired cert....what about fixing other things	11:57
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fasta	Because, if they can, what stops them from just bricking the device one day after warranty?	11:58
fasta	They could just say it was a 'mistake'.	11:58
ShadowX	The best thing nokia can do (witch i doubt they'll do ) is to relase the control over maemo to the community .	11:59
ShadowX	btw are u using CSSU ?	11:59
fasta	I am.	11:59
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ShadowX	What issues do you have with the phone?	11:59
fasta	But still, I consider that I have to use CSSU a failure on Nokia's part.	11:59
fasta	ShadowX: I wanted to have Cell Broadcast working.	12:00
ShadowX	Except the hildon lagging quite a lot after few days of work, i'm pretty happy with it.	12:00
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ShadowX	I think N900 is the least of their problems atm ..they don't even care about it :)	12:01
fasta	ShadowX: if an asteroid is going to destroy my area in 30 minutes, and I am working, I will be the only one who is going to be incinerated.	12:01
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fasta	ShadowX: a Nokia 3210 did support this feature.	12:01
fasta	ShadowX: the N900 also has it, (and someone patched the binary already).	12:02
ShadowX	Oo	12:02
jacekowski	fasta: what sort of bugs?	12:02
ShadowX	i dont see how can you put n900 next to 3210 ....	12:02
fasta	jacekowski: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8347	12:02
povbot	Bug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available	12:02
jacekowski	that's not a bug	12:03
fasta	jacekowski: yes, it is.	12:03
jacekowski	that's unsupported feature	12:03
fasta	jacekowski: the code is there and it doesn't work.	12:03
jacekowski	android phones have no CB support as well	12:03
fasta	Perhaps this is a part of evolution where smartphone owners are supposed to die before the others.	12:03
fasta	"We exterminate all our users. It's part of our new business strategy. " -- Nokia & Android sellers	12:04
jacekowski	CB is one of those useless features that nobody really supports	12:05
jacekowski	not many carriers send CB messages	12:05
fasta	jacekowski: lots of countries use them for emergency features.	12:05
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ShadowJK	It's like 3GPP videocalls, instant messaging, video/image sharing and VoIP.. There's no widespread usage of any of them, but there's always like one random operator/country where they're used :/	12:08
fasta	It would make great marketing material for someone who does support it.	12:08
ShadowJK	voip or "walkie talkie mode"	12:09
ShadowJK	that was supported here :P	12:09
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jacekowski	fasta: not really	12:15
jacekowski	fasta: you may just as well send normal text message to everyone	12:15
jacekowski	or the one that just pops up on the screen instantly	12:15
jacekowski	CB has to be configured on the device	12:16
fasta	jacekowski: no, because that require a user to be registered to a cell tower.	12:16
jacekowski	CB requires user to be subscribed to specific channels	12:16
fasta	jacekowski: and you have to know who is in the given area.	12:16
jacekowski	CB does the same	12:17
fasta	jacekowski: knowing who is in a given area has privacy problems and data storage problems.	12:17
jacekowski	as in, phone will not recieve message if it's not subscribed	12:17
jacekowski	because it will not listen for them	12:17
jacekowski	so it's from different side, but effect is the same	12:17
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jacekowski	fasta: they do know where everyone is	12:18
jacekowski	fasta: they have to store that and be able to look it up quickly so they know where to send calls for you	12:18
fasta	jacekowski: yes, but to send a CB you don't need position.	12:18
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jacekowski	yes, but tower knows all registered users anyways	12:19
jacekowski	so you send message to the tower and that then sends it to all registered handsets	12:20
jacekowski	same effect	12:20
DocScrutinizer05	sorry for delayed FW reboot. I improved my WD script now, hope this will trigger more early from now on	12:21
juozapas	where i can find openntp settings?	12:21
fasta	jacekowski: how does the tower know that some client of a competing company is in his area?	12:21
jacekowski	fasta: it doesn't	12:21
jacekowski	fasta: but phone will not recieve that message anyways	12:21
jacekowski	fasta: phone only listens to CB from tower it's registered to	12:21
fasta	jacekowski: are you saying that CB is provider specific?	12:21
jacekowski	yes	12:21
fasta	jacekowski: that's a rather broken idea.	12:22
fasta	jacekowski: who comes up with such bad ideas?	12:22
jacekowski	exactly	12:22
jacekowski	that's why i'm saying, CB has no benefit over sending same text to multiple users	12:22
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jacekowski	lower bandwidth	12:22
fasta	jacekowski: but if the SMS network is crowded, isn't there some problem?	12:23
jacekowski	yes and no, if it's emergency message it will get prioritised anyways	12:23
jacekowski	so that's not a problem	12:23
fasta	jacekowski: ok, I think I get it.	12:23
DocScrutinizer05	our top download IP on rmo leeching with a awesome 459kBps	12:24
fasta	First CB was created for some unreleated applicatio, then some government thought it was a good idea to use it for ER (which it isn't), and now I have a problem.	12:24
fasta	What should have happened, was the government creating a special standard for ER which was independent of the provider.	12:25
jacekowski	extremly power inefficient	12:25
jacekowski	and impossible to implement in a phone	12:25
jacekowski	unless you want to go back to brick sized phones	12:25
fasta	jacekowski: the problem being that listening forever takes a lot of energy?	12:26
jacekowski	phone can only listen on one channel at any given time	12:26
jacekowski	ie. channel of the tower it's registered to	12:26
fasta	jacekowski: can't it just connect to a circuit which is powered by the signal?	12:26
jacekowski	no	12:26
fasta	jacekowski: so, when a very high energy signal comes in, it's provides power for the logic to process it?	12:26
DocScrutinizer05	I'd be tempted to kill such leecher connections	12:26
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: who is it?	12:27
jacekowski	fasta: brick size	12:27
jonwil	My carrier sends CBSMS to my phone	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	probably we should do SPI and reject everything that has no valid maemo apt browser ID	12:27
fasta	jacekowski: is there some proof of that?	12:27
jonwil	although only for cell tower names	12:27
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: holy shit rmo is blazing fast	12:27
kerio	did warfare do something?	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	nah	12:27
jacekowski	fasta: that sort of hardware has been in use 50 years ago	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	not that I'd know of	12:27
DocScrutinizer05	well, we probably did some throttling	12:27
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: srsly, it's... responsive, at least	12:27
kerio	i'm not sure about fast	12:27
jacekowski	fasta: radio recievers powered by radio waves	12:28
jacekowski	fasta: but those required 100m long aerials to operate	12:28
fasta	jacekowski: where do you learn this stuff?	12:28
jacekowski	fasta: and transmitters that were 100x as powerfull as GSM	12:28
warfare	kerio: less clients updating things.	12:28
kerio	yay	12:28
jacekowski	fasta: wikipiedia	12:28
kerio	warfare: so... thanks for nothing! :D	12:28
fasta	jacekowski: not part of standard EE university curriculum?	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	root@stage:~# netstat -tn\|wc -l	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	2097	12:28
kerio	what's the current throughput?	12:28
DocScrutinizer05	\o/	12:28
warfare	kerio: still 25 mbps.	12:29
DocScrutinizer05	same as it ever was	12:29
kerio	(and we should still implement some sort of CDN)	12:29
jacekowski	fasta: nope	12:29
jacekowski	fasta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio	12:29
jacekowski	fasta: but the thing is, it had circuitry tuned to specific frequency	12:30
kerio	jacekowski: well, can it be physically adjusted in a simple way?	12:30
fasta	I do find it cool that almost every crazy idea I come up with has been thought of already.	12:30
jacekowski	yes	12:30
jacekowski	but it's still one frequency	12:30
kerio	like, a slider or a dial	12:30
kerio	oh, of course	12:30
DocScrutinizer05	do you know the most simple spy bug? two wires with a charcoal grain telephone mic in the middle	12:31
kerio	fasta: and someone already said that :D	12:31
jacekowski	so you can't do it between towers	12:31
jacekowski	unless in emergency every tower would transmit on same frequency	12:31
jacekowski	but then you have intereference problem	12:31
fasta	kerio: you mean what I just said? :)	12:31
kerio	yep	12:31
kerio	Pali: the battery applet code is somewhat of a mess :S	12:32
fasta	I think it is extremely hard to actually know what the rest of the world has already done at this point.	12:32
jacekowski	so doing emergency broadcasts is hard	12:32
fasta	I.e., knowing of all the patents in existence.	12:32
DocScrutinizer05	(rmo) well I asked teotwaki to stop mirroring, might actually have helped	12:32
fasta	(and some things which are likely trade secrets)	12:32
kerio	Pali: also, what's with bme_running and the fact that it's only set for one cycle?	12:32
kerio	aiui	12:33
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fasta	DocScrutinizer05: don't you also need a battery for that?	12:33
DocScrutinizer05	now blacklist that leecher on -224-25-100.tica.com.ua. and get another 500kBps bandwidth ;-D	12:33
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: so you only have 25MBps?	12:34
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DocScrutinizer05	fasta: no, two wires and a passive microphone built from charcoal	12:34
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: and what kind of equipment do you need to receive that?	12:34
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: yep, seems so	12:34
kerio	fasta: something with power, i assume :)	12:34
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: i can do some reverse proxying and stuff if you are interested	12:34
jacekowski	i've got gigabit of bandwidth	12:34
DocScrutinizer05	fasta: a strong transmitter with directional antenna, and a RX with directional antenna	12:34
kerio	jacekowski: warfare said he has a server too	12:34
kerio	the problem is that the n900's apt doesn't do redirects	12:35
warfare	jacekowski: how much traffic do you have? ;)	12:35
jacekowski	100T	12:35
kerio	so we'd have to change the dns records, but the dns records are still controlled by nokia	12:35
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: are you a consultant to spy agencies? :)	12:35
DocScrutinizer05	jacekowski: the problem is we don't have any control over DNS yet	12:35
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: what do you have to transmit?	12:35
DocScrutinizer05	fasta: yes	12:35
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DocScrutinizer05	;-P	12:35
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: that's not helping for sure	12:35
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: a carrier, nothing else	12:36
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: yeah, the problem is that you probably wouldn't be allowed to say it if you were.	12:36
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: has board given an ETA for the domain ownership transfer?	12:36
DocScrutinizer05	the two wires will tune on it by length, and the mic AM modulates it	12:36
DocScrutinizer05	no	12:36
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kerio	has board given an ETA for anything?	12:36
ShadowJK	jacekowski, maybe teotwaki could mirror from you though.. and maybe rmo could have rsync service so that you could get new stuff efficienctly	12:36
DocScrutinizer05	no	12:36
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: is there some book which describes this in tutorial fashion?	12:36
kerio	fasta: since he said "yes", then he's not a consultant for a spy agency	12:37
kerio	unless that's what he wants you to believe	12:37
DocScrutinizer05	err yes, Nokia sponsoring ending Feb	12:37
DocScrutinizer05	end of	12:37
DocScrutinizer05	is an ETA board has conbfirmed lately	12:37
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: clearly, they can't keep sponsoring our dns :P	12:37
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vi____1	Is there any way you could trick some low level chump into giving you access to the fremantle closed bits?	12:38
chem\|st	ShadowJK: thanks that someone else brings rsync in again	12:38
kerio	vi____1: the password is swordfish	12:38
vi____1	did u hack that on a gameboy?	12:39
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kerio	i wrote a GUI in visual basic for it	12:39
fasta	PS3 from Iran.	12:39
fasta	It comes with a monkey these days.	12:40
ShadowJK	chem\|st, i dont think we can convince people to not try to sync and mirror, so we might as well give them efficient access..	12:40
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fasta	There is a wrong monkey on the box sometimes, though.	12:40
vi____1	I maekd a .bat virus to get the c0des from a injection worm lizard ppl 9/11 was a hologram.	12:40
fasta	ShadowX: ++	12:40
chem\|st	ShadowJK: what I said...	12:40
fasta	Just put up a daily torrent.	12:41
ShadowJK	fasta, that's inefficient	12:41
ShadowJK	Because they'd be redownloading everything daily	12:41
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ShadowJK	instead of just downloading changes	12:41
fasta	ShadowX: with diffs	12:41
ShadowJK	heh	12:41
fasta	It's in the interest of the leecher to download as little as possible.	12:42
DocScrutinizer05	ShadowJK: haha, sure we would love to give _everybody_ lightning fast access	12:42
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: are you the only one who can visit it now? ;)	12:42
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer05, it's about cutting down on bytes transfered by these mirroring people	12:43
kerio	ShadowJK: apt-mirror is somewhat efficient	12:43
kerio	it only downloads the changed packages	12:43
DocScrutinizer05	fasta: the only one except warfare you will ever talk to, I guess	12:43
ShadowJK	And then if we could convince them to donwload from jacekowski offered bandwidth it'd be even better :-)	12:43
kerio	ShadowJK: it's just the first update, anyway	12:44
kerio	extras doesn't change a lot	12:44
kerio	and it's the main culprit, really	12:44
kerio	together with extras-devel, which already has some mirrors that are better than the original	12:44
DocScrutinizer05	SPI with reject for everyone not using "APT maemo" browser	12:44
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: why? :s	12:45
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kerio	what's the index page for, then?	12:45
DocScrutinizer05	will relatively effectively reject mirrors and other leechers	12:45
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: until they change their user agent :)	12:45
DocScrutinizer05	proper traffic shaping for those non-APT-maemo connections would be even better	12:46
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: sure they could do	12:46
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: it however wouldn't change much for them, since then again everything collapses	12:46
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DocScrutinizer05	so either way they don't get a proper image	12:46
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DocScrutinizer05	kill connections after they downloaded >100MB	12:47
DocScrutinizer05	fail2ban alike	12:47
DocScrutinizer05	"sorry dude! no more than 100MB download per day. Your IP got blocked for 24h"	12:48
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ShadowJK	it's funny, I thought everything else but rmo would be the hard stuff	12:50
ShadowJK	and rmo would be the easiest, since it's "only" bandwidth	12:50
DocScrutinizer05	dang, I wonder who's that .ua leecher	12:50
kerio	ShadowJK: as it turns out, we've got more n900s than we thought	12:50
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: what's .ua?	12:50
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DocScrutinizer05	nfc	12:50
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kerio	ukraine	12:50
fasta	We have 2000Gb/s fiber optical connections. Such a waste of talent that people need to spend time on reducing bandwidth.	12:50
* ShadowJK has 100M (ish) at home		12:51
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fasta	By "we", I meant some research lab.	12:51
kerio	fasta: it's just a workaround for a bureaucratic issue, we could be using cloudflare if we had control of the dns	12:51
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DocScrutinizer05	1Gbit proper ISP backbone would already make us happy	12:51
kerio	(there's a free tier for cloudflare, wtf - how do they make money?)	12:51
fasta	kerio: the brand becomes more valuable if it has more users.	12:52
* ShadowJK wonders if 4chan is on the free tier too		12:52
fasta	kerio: larger users will pay.	12:52
DocScrutinizer05	by shanghaiing your DNS	12:52
warfare	kerio: With the paid contracts. Which you actually want if you run a business on top of a cdn.	12:52
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: is that a technical term?	12:52
kerio	ShadowJK: the first paid tier is 20$/month	12:52
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: what's good about shangaiing dnses?	12:52
DocScrutinizer05	fasta: somewhat	12:52
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: all that we can't do now since we didn't, for 'our' DNS	12:53
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: the ability to decide on your own discretion and being in control and possession of your DNS	12:54
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: well, apparently they're also testing a CNAME solution for subdomains	12:55
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: I understand what the word means; I don't see what you meant, however.	12:55
kerio	and besides, it's the only way you could do CDN for your top level domain without redirects, aiui	12:55
DocScrutinizer05	probably if we ever gain control over maemo.org, the bylaws in contratc with Nokia would even forbid to hand control over it to somebody else	12:55
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: you gain control of the domain when you're the legal entity responsible for it according to the registrar	12:56
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kerio	you can set your root nameserver to whatever you want, that's not giving control of the domain	12:56
DocScrutinizer05	exactly	12:56
fasta	kerio: that's what I thought.	12:56
kerio	you've got the magical implied A records for your root nameservers set with the registrar (if you decide to have nameservers in your domain)	12:57
kerio	so you can "bootstrap" your DNSes	12:58
fasta	The only problem I have with DNS is that the software that needs to run it is written by amateurs.	12:59
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: see a few days back in #maemo-ssu (iirc). It's been found that that one free CDN has no PHP but only static content, and they want admin-c over your domain aiui	12:59
DocScrutinizer05	since NS would be theirs	12:59
kerio	yeah but you can take away the NS at any time	13:00
DocScrutinizer05	not if they are admin-c	13:00
DocScrutinizer05	afaik	13:00
kerio	oh, i see	13:00
kerio	yeah, that's bullshit :)	13:01
kerio	coralcdn is also free, but it only works with redirects	13:01
kerio	which won't work, because the stock apt is older than dirt	13:01
ShadowJK	can we create a maemocdn.org domain, point its NS over to cloudflare, then in maemo.org CNAME repository to repository.maemocdn.org? :-)	13:02
warfare	maybe we can build our own cdn - setup powerdns with geomatching and have community supported varnish boxes ;)	13:02
DocScrutinizer05	only feasible way: we stay owner and admin-c of maemo.org DNS, but we redirect to CDN's NS in our DNS	13:03
kerio	ShadowJK: neat	13:03
DocScrutinizer05	s/redirect/point/	13:03
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: only feasible way: we stay owner and admin-c of maemo.org DNS, but we point to CDN's NS in our DNS	13:03
kerio	ShadowJK: i doubt it would work	13:03
kerio	you need the correct hostname request for http to work properly	13:03
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DocScrutinizer05	I don't know if APT or HAM handles CNAME	13:04
ShadowJK	Anyway, we do need a DNS host at some point or another, might as well be cloudflare? :-)	13:04
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer05, everythign does	13:04
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: getaddrbyname handles CNAME :)	13:04
damo22	just tell everyone to use a different repository	13:04
damo22	?	13:04
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damo22	problem solved	13:04
DocScrutinizer05	well, then that's what I already suggested when we can't get control over maemo.org. We need Nokia to create CNAME to domains we own	13:05
kerio	damo22: the whole point of all of this is that we'll eventually gain proper control of maemo.org and then slip in cssu	13:05
damo22	ah	13:05
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kerio	possibly with something that replaces the boot video with a static "NOKIA SUCKS" image	13:05
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DocScrutinizer05	lol	13:05
ShadowJK	Oh, I vaguely rememberd there was restrictions with CNAMEs, but I forgot what those were. Now I remember, you can only have one CNAME record, but you can have multiple A record.	13:05
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fasta	DocScrutinizer05: the people over in #dns generally laugh at you when you use CNAMEs.	13:06
kerio	fasta: are you sure they're not laughing at DNAMEs?	13:06
DocScrutinizer05	I can generally live with that	13:06
fasta	kerio: I haven't heard about DNAMEs. So, I am going to assume they don't exist.	13:06
damo22	if the person who controls the DNS records for maemo.org is currently employed by nokia how are you gonna get control of it... ever	13:07
DocScrutinizer05	[disclaimer] I have a cloudy idea of how DNS stuff works, at best	13:07
fasta	DocScrutinizer05: DNS is non-trivial, IMHO.	13:07
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: when you use CNAMEs for http servers, the final server has to accept that he's supposed to be responding to your CNAME too	13:07
fasta	It's trivial in theory.	13:07
kerio	fasta: it's a good assumption, really	13:07
kerio	they're deprecated and a generally bad idea	13:07
DocScrutinizer05	fasta: yes, that's the idea of CNAME	13:07
fasta	Making it work is something entirely different.	13:07
DocScrutinizer05	oops,	13:07
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: ^^^	13:07
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: i doubt cloudflare will "accept" that :)	13:08
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: yep	13:08
damo22	do one of you guys here control the DNS zone file?	13:08
fasta	If I ever need personel for a networking position, I know exactly how I am going to grill them :)	13:08
DocScrutinizer05	wait for warfare and what he comes up with eventually	13:08
DocScrutinizer05	he is checking alternatives he knows of by his professional experience, this very minute	13:09
kerio	damo22: i think that the domain is still owned by nokia oyj	13:09
ShadowJK	damo22; nope. We/they have to beg nokia for any changes	13:09
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damo22	i see,	13:09
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kerio	and until they control the domain, we can't change the name servers for the maemo.org domain	13:10
Lava_Croft	Should get as much users to harass Nokia with requests to get their shit straight	13:10
kerio	and the name servers are NS*.NOKIA.COM	13:10
kerio	which are obviously controlled by nokia :)	13:10
damo22	one of you guys need to apply for a job with nokia and gain control of the admin position	13:10
damo22	:P	13:10
damo22	then by mistake, set the nameservers to	13:11
kerio	when you're hired by nokia, you get a chip implanted in your brain	13:11
kerio	and nowadays, that chip runs windows CE	13:11
DocScrutinizer05	http://wiki.maemo.org/Migrating_to_Community-driven_Infrastructure#Who_owns_.22maemo.org.22.3F	13:11
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Lava_Croft	Windows8, mind you:)	13:11
DocScrutinizer05	RTFM ;-P	13:11
Lava_Croft	the CE based version is deprecated and looking at the 7.8 update its a joke too	13:11
damo22	if M$ ever tries to install DRM enforcing brain chip kill me okay?	13:12
Lava_Croft	MS will try that just as hard as any other company	13:12
ShadowJK	Amusingly I trust MS more than Google now :-)	13:13
damo22	SecureBoot will prevent any linux os from booting on it	13:13
Lava_Croft	MS has some really friendly FOSS terms for their appstore	13:13
damo22	ShadowJK: really?? why	13:13
ShadowJK	damo22; wrt privacy and such, I mean	13:13
Lava_Croft	I trust Google as much as I trust MS	13:13
Lava_Croft	which is not at all	13:13
damo22	i trust a big company as far as i can throw them	13:13
Lava_Croft	exactly	13:14
kerio	i'd like a brain chip to access wireless networks	13:14
kerio	except that i also read reflections on trusting trust	13:14
kerio	and i'm not good enough at reading circuits to figure out if the actual hardware is trustworthy	13:14
damo22	yeah that is going to be a problem	13:14
Lava_Croft	It would be great if we all had chips in our head produced by the same company	13:15
Lava_Croft	sounds like a really great idea	13:15
damo22	i think the only solution to the digital trust problem is open hardware specs, open software specs everything	13:15
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Lava_Croft	I still opt for the solution that JC Denton presented at the end of Deus Ex Invisible War	13:16
damo22	so if someone finds a problem with the current implementation, they are free to change it and reimplement it	13:16
damo22	thats all	13:16
Lava_Croft	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBeoreJr4Yc	13:16
kerio	damo22: nope, you still have a trust problem for the manufacturing	13:16
damo22	quality control	13:17
damo22	and testing	13:17
damo22	should fix that	13:17
ShadowJK	I'm not sure what company my CC number is safest with. Probably MS. Google probably doesn't give it out, but like paypal it might probably suddenly try charge something random for no good reason. As for Nokia, well, Nokia/Ovi store is so incompetent, that even if I gave them my CC number, they'd probably delete it accidentally, and if not, they're usually not able to figure out how to charge a CC anyway, even when I want them to :-)	13:17
Lava_Croft	I would totally trust Nokia with all my personal information indeed	13:17
Lava_Croft	They are such a bunch of fuckups that they can hardly pose any danger	13:17
damo22	:S	13:17
kerio	damo22: nope	13:18
kerio	there's no amount of testing that can figure out if someone is planting a hardware bug in your cpu	13:18
damo22	wtf	13:19
damo22	what if the microcode is open source	13:19
kerio	damo22: manufacturer	13:19
kerio	or shipping	13:20
damo22	if they wire it up wrong inside, it wont work	13:20
damo22	surely	13:20
kerio	the problem is not that they might wire it wrong	13:20
kerio	the problem is that they might wire it /just right/	13:20
damo22	according to the specs, a cpu instruction should perform an action that is expected, every instruction can be tested	13:20
kerio	and your testing will reveal absolutely nothing wrong	13:20
damo22	bullshit	13:21
Lava_Croft	Who is going to say the Chinese havent done so already	13:21
kerio	Lava_Croft: that's the whole point!	13:21
Lava_Croft	yup	13:21
Lava_Croft	Anyone who played the original Deus Ex knew this already:)	13:21
damo22	hang on a sec	13:21
DocScrutinizer05	damo22: nope, you basically can't test anything inside a SoC or CPU	13:21
kerio	Lava_Croft: you linked us a video of deus ex invisible war, you have to hand in your deus ex fanboy card	13:22
DocScrutinizer05	you can check if the results are like you expected, but you won't find out about a phantom CPU that's doing code inspection and eventually intercepts/takes over	13:22
damo22	thats a bit paranoid	13:23
damo22	wouldnt you say	13:23
DocScrutinizer05	sure, but feasible	13:23
DocScrutinizer05	btw RISC has no microcode afaik	13:23
kerio	just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you ;)	13:23
damo22	i know	13:24
kerio	some modern intel cpus can be "upgraded" via software	13:24
damo22	:O	13:24
damo22	wth	13:24
damo22	upgrade a cpu???	13:24
kerio	yeah, if you buy the low-end model you don't get the cool virtualization features	13:24
DocScrutinizer05	sure, why not	13:24
chem\|st	damo22: microcode updates	13:24
DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	13:25
damo22	this is bad	13:25
kerio	you can buy a card with a code, and then you unlock those features with your code	13:25
damo22	defective products by design	13:25
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kerio	defective for who?	13:25
DocScrutinizer05	way cheaper that to produce different chips	13:25
damo22	for the user	13:25
kerio	definetely not for the people who're out to get you	13:25
DocScrutinizer05	s/that/than/	13:25
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: way cheaper than to produce different chips	13:25
kerio	>:D	13:25
damo22	give us a super chip that can be i7 but locked down to i3	13:26
DocScrutinizer05	that's a very common practive with appliences already	13:26
damo22	bastards	13:26
Lava_Croft	neutered cpus :<	13:26
chem\|st	from wafer edges you get i3 from wafer center you get i7, i5 is afair another design	13:26
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DocScrutinizer05	the cheap TV also has all the cute capabilities to do HDD recording etc, just locked in firmware	13:27
chem\|st	all this quad tripple dual core things is one chip	13:27
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DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	13:27
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer05: someties they just not install required hardware	13:28
chem\|st	defective cores get either turned off by software and may be unlocked or by Focused Ion Beam cut out -> not to be unlocked	13:28
jacekowski	microcode upgrades are different thing4	13:28
jacekowski	microcode updates are there to fix bugs	13:28
DocScrutinizer05	they produce flash; they design it for 34GB and sell as 32. Now if a chip is too damaged to get the 32 but has only 30, they lock it down to 16	13:28
chem\|st	jacekowski: I thought it is the same codebase for unlocking	13:28
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DocScrutinizer05	same with quad core CPU	13:30
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer05: wtf, flash is so cheap they can just bin the chip..	13:30
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DocScrutinizer05	one core not complying with the speed stepping, they rather lock that one core than rating down speed stepping for all 4 cores	13:30
chem\|st	jacekowski: enlighten please	13:31
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damo22	one day it will be the same with software	13:38
damo22	all the features built into the super model, modules switched off for lower end	13:38
jacekowski	chem\|st: upgrade thing is completly different set of features	13:38
jacekowski	chem\|st: microcode is there to patch existing opcodes in cpu	13:38
jacekowski	chem\|st: and microcode is horribly slow	13:39
damo22	its probably not a bad thing, but its bad if they do it in a way that is anticompetitive	13:39
damo22	like creating a monopoly on the app store for example	13:39
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chem\|st	jacekowski: ah ok now I get what you mean	13:40
jacekowski	chem\|st: but slow instruction is better than incorrectly working instruction	13:40
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damo22	they are probably working on a cpu that has instructions 'locked', and only verifies itself with software	13:40
damo22	and serial number of registered software	13:41
damo22	:(	13:41
chem\|st	software will be hacked...	13:41
damo22	yes it will, but it will get more and more difficult	13:42
damo22	since to get a development environment will be tricky	13:42
chem\|st	do you know why people do not hack the pentagon that often?	13:42
kerio	because there's not much of interest in it?	13:43
chem\|st	that too	13:43
jacekowski	because there are people on the other side of the firewall	13:43
jacekowski	that know what they are doing	13:43
jacekowski	and "monitor" it constantly	13:43
chem\|st	jacekowski: exactly	13:43
kerio	jacekowski: meh, people that know what they're doing isn't really the problem	13:43
kerio	the problem are their friends with the $big_gunz	13:43
damo22	why did this convo turn to the pentagon	13:44
damo22	we are talking about cpus	13:44
kerio	damo22: it's because they control the chip that's currently inside your brain	13:44
damo22	what chip? u suck	13:44
chem\|st	kerio: it takes about the same time to reroute your connection to be hidden as it takes them to follow the route	13:44
kerio	damo22: that's what the chip makes you think	13:44
damo22	LOL	13:45
damo22	im sure theyd love to do that, but they dont need it, they have facebook and iphones	13:45
chem\|st	hehe	13:46
chem\|st	a teacher asked students about what STASI wanted to know about their people, then he let the students strike out anything not on facebook	13:47
chem\|st	the teacher used to be my neighbour	13:47
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damo22	there is a level of balance between caring about society and caring about yourself, we all need to make a living	13:48
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damo22	too little care about society makes you a good businessman and an arsehole, too much care about society and you become a mental nutcase who cant make a living	13:49
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damo22	i like to keep the balance in the middle	13:50
chem\|st	I like to be the bad guy...	13:50
damo22	this is the reason i contribute to free software	13:51
damo22	when i can	13:51
damo22	and i love the n900 because it gives me the freedom to run a free operating system (with a few blob exceptions)	13:52
damo22	if i had the luxury of not having to make a living, i might take the point of view that i should reject any technology that is restricted in any way at all	13:54
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DocScrutinizer05	root@stage:~# grep "91.22x.2x.10x" /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log\|wc -l	13:57
DocScrutinizer05	2565	13:57
DocScrutinizer05	root@stage:~# wc -l /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log	13:57
DocScrutinizer05	407609 /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log	13:57
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DocScrutinizer05	188.117.59.205 => 91.22x.2x.10x 0.99Mb 638kb 600kb	14:00
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DocScrutinizer05	91.22x.2x.10x - - [04/Feb/2013:06:34:18 +0000] "GET http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/j/jammo7-12-data/jammo7-12-data_0.7.24-1.dsc HTTP/1.1" 200 696 "-" "Wget/1.14 (linux-gnu)"	14:00
damo22	what is jammo?	14:01
DocScrutinizer05	some app	14:01
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DocScrutinizer05	that's just one example out of the 2565	14:01
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DocScrutinizer05	somebody mirroring the repo with wget	14:02
DocScrutinizer05	taking 1/25 of available bandwidth	14:02
DocScrutinizer05	there are others like him	14:02
damo22	geez	14:02
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kerio	so? ban him	14:03
damo22	so hes using multiple ips to mirror the whole repo?	14:03
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: I'm discussing it with warfare	14:03
kerio	temporarily, of course	14:03
kerio	we could also decide that right now, it's fast enough	14:03
DocScrutinizer05	damo22: why do you think that?	14:03
kerio	who do we know from ukraine?	14:04
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	14:04
damo22	i dont know	14:04
kerio	E*_ is polish, fmg is bulgarian	14:04
damo22	i thought the x;s represented multiple numbers	14:04
DocScrutinizer05	the x represent privacy protection introduced by me	14:04
damo22	i see, PCI-DSS-IP	14:05
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: we could make jacekowski use his multi-gbit connection to flood him :D	14:05
DocScrutinizer05	also called censoring ;-)	14:05
trx	lol	14:05
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: nice idea to throttle that client ;-P	14:06
trx	multi-gbit? :D	14:06
trx	is he a tier 1 node?	14:06
DocScrutinizer05	apparently	14:06
DocScrutinizer05	:-)	14:06
kerio	modified fmtxd binaries at the speed of light!	14:06
damo22	or you could publish his ip and we can nmap him and play with his ports	14:07
damo22	:P	14:07
kerio	damo22: at some point, it becomes illega	14:07
kerio	l	14:07
DocScrutinizer05	that's exactly why I don't publish full IP	14:07
kerio	pinging him... eeh	14:07
damo22	DDoS-ping?	14:07
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DocScrutinizer05	odds are this is a benevolent dude running a maemo mirror	14:08
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DocScrutinizer05	maybe even on his company's server	14:08
M4rtinK	many users don't follow TMO or IRC	14:09
DocScrutinizer05	we might cause DDoS on a "innocent" infra	14:09
damo22	it might be a script that backs up the mirror	14:09
M4rtinK	and there are probably still active non-english N900 communities	14:09
M4rtinK	so they might be running their own mirrors once they found the repos work again	14:10
DocScrutinizer05	might ruin that dude's life, getting fired for abusing his company's IT	14:10
damo22	can i purchase a DVD set of Maemo extras?	14:10
kerio	ahah	14:10
kerio	this isn't debian	14:10
DocScrutinizer05	sure, I'll send you for 100EUR ;-D	14:10
kerio	it'd be obsolete before they're shipped	14:10
damo22	:P	14:10
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DocScrutinizer05	send it to you*	14:11
damo22	how many Gb is the full repo?	14:11
DocScrutinizer05	good question	14:11
DocScrutinizer05	depends on what you include to "full"	14:12
damo22	hmm	14:12
DocScrutinizer05	some 1.x TB iirc the stats of skeiron	14:12
damo22	i see	14:12
damo22	DVD set isnt a good option then	14:12
damo22	USB HDD maybe	14:13
M4rtinK	tapes :)	14:13
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DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	14:13
eddyb	DocScrutinizer05: I told you I'd be having fun	14:13
eddyb	http://i.imgur.com/WKMTWbv.png	14:13
DocScrutinizer05	err	14:13
damo22	eddyb: OMG i have seen that screen before with nouveau on my MBP	14:13
DocScrutinizer05	.oO(???)	14:13
eddyb	that's scanning for ARM code (the probably most common subsequence between all ARM instructions, the ALWAYS condition code)	14:14
DocScrutinizer05	sorry, this picture reminds me to "snowing at nighttime"	14:14
eddyb	a somewhat-continuous line of the same color indicates ARM code	14:16
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eddyb	the beginning of the larger white section at the bottom is a function calling other functions with its parameters	14:16
eddyb	s/params/args	14:16
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damo22	all the effort people put into RE, they could have made a new one from scratch	14:19
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kerio	damo22: cmt checks a signature	14:20
damo22	cmt=?	14:20
kerio	the phone inside the n900	14:21
jonwil	eddyb: what exactly are you trying to reverse engineer and why?	14:21
jonwil	cellular modem firmware I get but which bit and why do you care about it?	14:21
kerio	and most importantly, do you have a copy of the hex-rays arm disassembler?	14:22
eddyb	hex-rays?	14:22
eddyb	that joke?	14:22
eddyb	yes I've used it once	14:22
jonwil	I have never used hex-rays on ARM	14:22
jonwil	but hex-rays does a good job on x86	14:22
eddyb	I don't want a good job, I want an excellent job	14:23
damo22	can u write a disassembler with the spec sheet of the cpu instruction set?	14:23
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DocScrutinizer05	http://privatepaste.com/4cf2beca95	14:23
DocScrutinizer05	(some connection speeds)	14:23
jonwil	ok, so what exactly are you reverse engineering this for?	14:24
jonwil	if you just want to talk to the cellular modem, there are easier ways to do that than reverse engineering its firmware :)	14:24
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jonwil	writing a replacement isn't going to happen because of the security on the cellular modem	14:24
eddyb	damo22: not sure what you're getting at, but I have a decompiler in the works, and for disassembly, I almost copy-pasted the opcode table in the intel manuals	14:24
eddyb	jonwil: yeah, I know all the security issues. but I'm curious	14:25
damo22	i imagine if you have hexdumps of firmware you can read off the instructions and map them to opcodes	14:25
eddyb	yeah	14:25
eddyb	but if you look at that image	14:25
eddyb	only small pieces of it is ARM	14:25
damo22	oh?	14:26
eddyb	someone told me to look at C6	14:26
eddyb	err, enter key is happy today	14:26
eddyb	C64x+	14:26
jonwil	Couldn't some of it be for a DSP chip?	14:26
jonwil	hmmm yeah C64 is a DSP	14:26
eddyb	jonwil: yeah, that's what he said. the header actually confirms that about half the binary is for the DSP	14:26
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DocScrutinizer05	warfare invents some conditional blacklisting based on criteria from /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log	14:27
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damo22	it might be worth converting the hexdump into ascii and checking for strings	14:27
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: looks good, apart for the two unlucky bastards who got 5kb/s	14:27
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DocScrutinizer05	I suggested sth along the lines of only allowing a few hundered wgets per day and distinct IP	14:27
eddyb	C64's instructions are similar to ARM, but the ALWAYS condition code is 0, so it's going to be harder to look for them	14:28
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: what's the problem, at the moment?	14:28
eddyb	damo22: there's actually parts of the C code embedded in the binary	14:28
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eddyb	left in there probably by ASSERT	14:28
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: repo slow?	14:28
damo22	:)	14:28
flux	that seemed bizarre until I realized C64 is not commodore 64	14:28
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: is it slow?	14:28
eddyb	jonwil: this would be so much easier if the lengths in the header wouldn't be amounting to almost double the file size	14:29
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damo22	eddyb: so are there function calls that jump to raw DSP code?	14:30
DocScrutinizer05	according to warfare there's an ISP in Hamburg with a few maemo fans... in the crew	14:31
damo22	you should be able to find a signature that indicates this kind of jump	14:31
damo22	?\	14:31
eddyb	damo22: a jump from ARM to DSP?	14:31
damo22	yeah	14:31
eddyb	that doesn't sound right at all	14:31
M4rtinK	well, at least in my case updating packages from the repos is still very slow	14:32
damo22	or do they run independently?	14:32
M4rtinK	and what's worst, it seems to basically stall most of the time, jumping a few % from time to time	14:32
DocScrutinizer05	sure they do	14:32
M4rtinK	as it seems to be working for others, I'm starting to wonder if I'm doing something wrong :)	14:33
jonwil	I found this with google	14:33
jonwil	http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9440/rapuyamachipinfo.jpg	14:33
eddyb	jonwil: so I'm not sure if the contents are packed or they're just code for a different platform	14:33
DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: thanks for reports. That's what we thought it is like, for a significant fraction of clients	14:33
M4rtinK	DocScrutinizer05: no problem	14:33
jonwil	it might be that the cmt firmware file is compressed	14:33
M4rtinK	oh and for the record, once I finally download a package, I get hash mismatch	14:34
eddyb	jonwil: it has a non-compressed header and non-compressed strings/ARM code in it	14:34
jonwil	hmmm ok	14:34
M4rtinK	basically always	14:34
DocScrutinizer05	jonwil: yes, that's about all you ever get to know about rapuyama	14:34
damo22	eddyb: is this the firmware for the phone part of the n900?	14:35
jonwil	That and information on how to remove the carrier lock from phones with BB5 chips	14:36
eddyb	damo22: yes	14:36
damo22	eddyb: sounds like fun	14:36
eddyb	damo22: it's a secondary, less powerful SoC, but with DSP	14:36
DocScrutinizer05	jonwil: yes, for all "normal" BB5 phones. unclear if it applies to N900 rapuyama	14:36
jonwil	not that it matters for N900 since very few, if any, were ever sold locked to a carrier	14:37
DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	14:37
DocScrutinizer05	there are some	14:37
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DocScrutinizer05	sprint iirc	14:37
damo22	eddyb: maybe it will have special functions with low level calls to the hardware	14:38
DocScrutinizer05	at least we got an unlock GUI	14:38
DocScrutinizer05	probably from times when libisi didn't support USSD	14:38
eddyb	damo22: there's too little ARM code in there	14:39
jonwil	I dont think sprint ever sold N900s	14:39
jonwil	sprint is CDMA and the N900 is UMTS	14:39
jonwil	btw, I recon based on the evidence that the BB5 chip is made by Texas Instruments	14:40
damo22	maybe the code is interleaved like a php file eg: <?php echo "hello ?>htmlcraphere<?php die('exit') ?>	14:40
damo22	"	14:40
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damo22	bad example, since this is opcodes but still	14:41
eddyb	damo22: gaaah	14:41
eddyb	damo22: you have good ideas, but you're not helping	14:41
jonwil	me, I still see no point in bothering to reverse engineer the CMT firmware	14:41
jonwil	much better things to reverse engineer from where I sit :)	14:42
DocScrutinizer05	ack	14:42
eddyb	I need to improve my analyzer to extract and disassemble the pieces of code	14:43
damo22	eddyb: is there a pattern or consistent opcodes between the arm stuff and dsp stuff?	14:43
eddyb	damo22: oh, thanks, that reminded me, I wanted to look for patterns in the non-(ARM code/ASCII strings) parts of the binary	14:43
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damo22	:)	14:44
jonwil	If I had the time to really devote to it (and the right tools) I would go back and take another crack at the GPRS stuff...	14:44
jonwil	but thus far the connectivity UI bits have eluded pretty much all my attempts to reverse engineer them	14:45
damo22	i am reverse engineering a sound card for firewire + alsa	14:46
eddyb	well, good luck	14:46
damo22	playback is working	14:47
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jonwil	but yeah hex-rays is great for x86, I use it all the time on any number of x86 binaries :)	14:49
Hurrian	hmm, doesn't the SoC simply talk to whatever firmware runs on the BB5?	14:49
kerio	jonwil: but no arm :(	14:50
jonwil	no, I haven't used hex-rays for ARM	14:50
jonwil	although I wish I had it to use on N900 stuffs :P	14:50
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damo22	what about objdump -c or whatever	14:50
eddyb	I wish I didn't have all this meaningless school stuff	14:50
eddyb	my small analyzer already beats IDA	14:51
eddyb	I have proof-of-return stack analysis	14:51
kerio	Estel_: i suppose that we have to decide what the battery applet is supposed to be	14:51
kerio	should it just report the data from hald-addon-bme and consider that as the most accurate?	14:51
kerio	if so, the "problem" is with hald-addon-bme	14:52
damo22	what is a good offline map solution for maemo?	14:53
kerio	damo22: completely offline?	14:53
damo22	well, yes,	14:53
kerio	monav's offline routing is used pretty much by every open mapping solution	14:53
kerio	it's that good	14:54
damo22	except perhaps gps location currently displaying	14:54
kerio	yeah, yeah, agps is cheap enough :)	14:54
kerio	monav itself is... a bit weird, perhaps, but i like it	14:54
kerio	and has vector maps	14:54
damo22	i love vector maps	14:54
kerio	modrana is also very good, but you have to download map tiles	14:54
kerio	there's kde's marble, which is also kinda good	14:54
damo22	does monav have whole world in vector format?	14:55
eddyb	I could have had a decompilator working months ago. or even just weeks. but no, I have to waste my time with this stupid school	14:55
tadzik	no you don't	14:55
kerio	damo22: http://monav.openstreetmap.de/ these aren't that outdated	14:55
kerio	damo22: the whole world is mapped, in separate packages	14:55
kerio	it uses OSM data, of course	14:55
damo22	kerio: wow nice	14:56
kerio	afaik the version of monav in extras-devel doesn't work with those packages	14:56
kerio	so you have to use the .deb from that site	14:56
eddyb	tadzik: talk to my parents, get me a place to stay and money for food	14:56
tadzik	ha, fair enough	14:56
damo22	can i use the monav in stable and maps on the website?	14:56
eddyb	tadzik: after that, I may be able to code crazy awesome stuff for you	14:57
kerio	damo22: i'm not sure if monav is in extras, just use the .deb from the website too :)	14:57
eddyb	I also could just be a dreamy teenager with a history of half-finished projects	14:57
kerio	eddyb: that's... more likely	14:57
eddyb	kerio: thanks for the reality check	14:57
eddyb	who knows. my gf just dumped me. things are going up and up	14:58
eddyb	except I'm upside-down	14:58
kerio	...hand over your geek card	14:58
tadzik	eddyb: I thought so too. "When I finish my studies I'll have so much time!". Now I'm studying full-time and working half-time, and it's a bit exhausting sometimes	14:58
damo22	real geeks dont have gfs?	14:58
tadzik	I'm fine being unreal then	14:59
eddyb	damo22: no, real geeks inject themselves with dopamine prepared in the basement lab	14:59
damo22	you mean, pron	14:59
eddyb	take a look at this https://github.com/eddyb/wiREd/blob/master/disasm/x86.js#L167	15:00
eddyb	isn't this better than any other disassembler out there?	15:00
kerio	eddyb: HACK/FIXME/HACK/FIXME/FIXME in four consecutive lines	15:01
kerio	nice	15:01
eddyb	I can be forgetful... I learned that the hard way (with dreams and ideas)	15:01
eddyb	I blame github for showing code before the highlighted line	15:02
damo22	a disassembler written in javascript?	15:02
damo22	why oh why	15:03
eddyb	damo22: stop whining, it's not PHP	15:03
eddyb	ES6 is the Perl of the decade	15:03
damo22	whats wrong with C	15:03
damo22	:P	15:04
eddyb	you're not going to get anywhere	15:04
eddyb	I can almost copy-paste the opcode tables from the intel manuals	15:04
eddyb	well, Perl and LISP	15:04
DocScrutinizer05	(connection speed statistics) http://privatepaste.com/f0a869eb47	15:04
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damo22	you could write a tokeniser in C that parses a binary and outputs a customised string for each byte on the input quite easily	15:05
eddyb	strings. pffft	15:06
eddyb	this baby doesn't output strings	15:06
damo22	what does it output? the opcodes compiled into C?	15:08
eddyb	it outputs expressions	15:08
eddyb	similar to a simplified AST	15:08
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: meh, good enough	15:08
damo22	ok cool	15:08
damo22	like chunks of assembler macros?	15:09
eddyb	damo22: like: EAX = 0; for xor eax, eax	15:09
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: those are sorted top down top ~50 in download bandwidth	15:09
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: lots of connections are at 0b 0b 0b	15:10
eddyb	damo22: or EIP = 0xf00bar; for jmp 0xf00bar	15:10
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: oh :(	15:10
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: can't we do throttling?	15:10
damo22	lots of people are working on optimizing GCC to produce fast code, why dont they spend more effort writing a decompiler that outputs clean C code	15:11
eddyb	damo22: GCC is written in C. even if it's exaggerated, I consider myself a bit of a visionary	15:12
eddyb	you can't hold on to your old habits and have nice things at the same time	15:12
eddyb	progress is all about change	15:12
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: [2013-02-04 13:27:04] <DocScrutinizer05> warfare invents some conditional blacklisting based on criteria from /var/log/varnish/varnishncsa.log	15:13
flux	damo22, C isn't really that great a target language for a (de)compiler, you can easily encounter structures that don't nicely map into C. such as tail-jumps.	15:13
DocScrutinizer05	(I'm to lame to code my ideas ;-P)	15:13
damo22	what about an interpreted language like python	15:14
eddyb	flux: that too, but I think he was talking about the code the decompiler is written in	15:14
eddyb	damo22: python < JS < ES6	15:14
damo22	?	15:15
flux	oh. I definitely wouldn't choose C for writing a disassembler :-o. I mean, what C's advantages you get to take advantage of?	15:15
damo22	bison / flex or whatever	15:15
eddyb	pfffft	15:15
flux	right, those must be unique to C..	15:15
M4rtinK	python > everything ?ú	15:15
M4rtinK	:)	15:15
kerio	indeed	15:15
eddyb	M4rtinK: by that logic, whitespace > everything	15:16
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: he just established that	15:16
M4rtinK	IIRC, it is used for RE quite often	15:16
eddyb	yeah	15:16
eddyb	but it's not that good	15:16
damo22	python would be good i reckon	15:16
eddyb	gah please no more snake fans	15:16
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: top ten from log get throttled to 75kbps now	15:16
M4rtinK	well, I've heard LOLCODE is quite nice :)	15:16
M4rtinK	well, everybody likes his own :)	15:17
damo22	ok forget it, just fire up your DOS 6.22 with BASICA	15:17
DocScrutinizer05	and I'm away for a session with my dentist :-S	15:17
M4rtinK	or QML ? :)	15:17
M4rtinK	there is QBS already - a build system	15:17
M4rtinK	based on QML	15:17
kerio	a friend of mine is an admin at esolangs, he's fluent in ~20 programming languages	15:17
kerio	and yet, his favourite is perl :s	15:18
eddyb	kerio: because it gets things done?	15:18
eddyb	just like Harmony	15:18
eddyb	and very well, I might add	15:18
kerio	plenty of ways to get things done without having to use a write-only language	15:18
damo22	ok i opened a can of worms	15:18
damo22	sorry	15:18
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damo22	i think they all crawled away now though	15:19
eddyb	kerio: heh, Perl? I wouldn't learn it myself, at least nothing more than the basics	15:19
damo22	but you cant blame me for being surprised you wrote a disassembler in js	15:20
eddyb	in a few years, legacy JS will be replaced, and all those problems you were whining about would be long gone	15:20
DocScrutinizer05	uplink throttled from 25Mbps to 22 with that top ten punishment	15:20
eddyb	damo22: it's not technically JS, just the file extension. it's Harmony/ES6, "compiled" to js by google's traceur-compiler	15:20
DocScrutinizer05	which also meant we shouldn't see packet loss on ISP side anymore	15:20
DocScrutinizer05	means*	15:20
teotwaki	DocScrutinizer05: 25MB/s? Or 25Mbit/s?	15:21
damo22	k	15:21
DocScrutinizer05	Mb/s	15:21
teotwaki	That's pretty anemic.	15:21
teotwaki	anaemic	15:21
DocScrutinizer05	bit	15:21
eddyb	DocScrutinizer05: that's a bit too slow	15:22
DocScrutinizer05	that's what ISP seems to shape our uplink to	15:22
DocScrutinizer05	sth around 50..30	15:22
DocScrutinizer05	err 25..30	15:22
teotwaki	My $20/mo box sends out at 80-90Mbit/s no problem, and has been for the past 4-5 months or so.	15:22
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DocScrutinizer05	too slow for what?	15:22
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eddyb	DocScrutinizer05: "bit". failed pun	15:22
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DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki: well, I don't know what contract Nemein has with their ISP	15:23
M4rtinK	hmm, seems to not to stall that much now	15:24
DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: good :-)	15:24
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M4rtinK	too soon - 74% and holding :)	15:25
teotwaki	DocScrutinizer05: that being said, I was backing up rmo at noon...	15:25
M4rtinK	(from 296kB on the kmplayer package)	15:25
kerio	how do battery applets on linux work?	15:26
kerio	where do they get the data?	15:26
DocScrutinizer05	depends	15:27
eddyb	sysfs, I think	15:27
DocScrutinizer05	most of them use lshal or similar	15:27
eddyb	or a hal	15:27
kerio	oh, acpi	15:27
eddyb	but the hal uses sysfs, right?	15:27
DocScrutinizer05	no	15:27
eddyb	kerio: acpi on x86 only AFAIK	15:27
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DocScrutinizer05	hal uses haldaddonbme	15:28
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: i meant on linux desktops	15:28
DocScrutinizer05	meh	15:28
M4rtinK	Failed to fetch <url>/kmplayer_0.10.6.900-3_armel.deb Hash Sum mismatch	15:28
DocScrutinizer05	on desktops either hal or sysfs	15:28
M4rtinK	after it finished downloading	15:28
kerio	M4rtinK: that's a repo problem	15:29
kerio	that is, the download was probably successful	15:29
DocScrutinizer05	toldya the hashsum is a problem inherited from original repo, introduced probably by autobuilder	15:30
DocScrutinizer05	afaik	15:30
DocScrutinizer05	I had no time to look into it and wrap my head around it	15:31
DocScrutinizer05	ask thedead1440, merlin1991, brkn	15:31
DocScrutinizer05	pester Nemein/x-fade to fix it	15:32
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DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: that hashsum error been at end of update? or did you do something else to trigger it?	15:42
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DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: like installing kmplayer from HAM	15:42
Pali	logging on maemo.org not working	15:44
Pali	invalid username or password	15:44
gry	odd, try to reset?	15:44
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kerio	nah, it's currently broken	15:46
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damo22	kerio: is there a way to display the street names on the offline vector maps in monav?	16:00
kerio	i dunno	16:00
damo22	thats the only thing i dont have atm	16:00
M4rtinK	damo22: directly in Monav ?	16:01
damo22	M4rtinK: yeah	16:01
M4rtinK	damo22: depends if the renderer can do that	16:02
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M4rtinK	and if street names are included in the vector data (they probably are)	16:02
M4rtinK	maybe try the desktop version if it shows up there ?	16:02
M4rtinK	DocScrutinizer05: I've just done "apt-get update" and then "apt-get install kmplayer"	16:03
M4rtinK	kmplayer because it showed there is an update for it	16:03
M4rtinK	I'll try to uninstall it first	16:03
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thedead1440	M4rtinK: I'm confused on it too; i just tried downloading kmplayer and it downloaded fine via apt-get install without any errors :S	16:16
damo22	nope the vector maps dont display the street names in i386 either	16:23
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damo22	unless i go for online	16:23
M4rtinK	so it is probably renderer limitation then	16:24
M4rtinK	it is a shame Monav development is quite a bit in limbo at the moment	16:24
M4rtinK	which is unfortunate as many features are incomplete	16:25
M4rtinK	there are also quite a lot of clones with some interesting changes, but as the main developer seems to be AWOL, nobody is merging them back	16:26
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damo22	doh	16:28
damo22	would the online maps use less data if i have the downloaded stuff?	16:29
M4rtinK	I think it is one or the other	16:29
M4rtinK	either you use the vector data for rendering	16:30
M4rtinK	or you use the prerendered map tiles	16:30
M4rtinK	I don't think it supports showing bot at the same time	16:30
M4rtinK	but I haven't played with it too much	16:30
damo22	np	16:30
M4rtinK	(as I'm developing my own navigation system :) )	16:31
damo22	nice	16:31
damo22	what about mapswithme	16:31
damo22	is that maemo friendly?	16:31
kerio	M4rtinK: gimme vector rendering! :(	16:32
M4rtinK	what is it ?	16:32
kerio	downloading tiles is bullshit	16:32
damo22	i had a iphone app that was free that used free vector maps, it rocked	16:33
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M4rtinK	kerio: ok, if you help me resolve this: https://github.com/kothic/kothic/issues/5 :)	16:33
M4rtinK	once I can get Kothic to actually display something other than a blue screen (how fitting ! :) )	16:34
M4rtinK	integrating it with the GTK interface should not be that difficult	16:34
M4rtinK	making a QPainter front end would be also nice :)	16:35
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M4rtinK	thedead1440: trying again through SSH, so I can post the output	16:41
M4rtinK	for the record, the is the log from apt-get update: http://privatepaste.com/e5bee9f53b	16:44
kerio	M4rtinK: so...	16:45
kerio	open it in pdb, check what's options.filename?	16:45
kerio	also, are you using py3k?	16:45
M4rtinK	kerio: I think that is is probably some projection error	16:46
M4rtinK	it does something with the vector data	16:46
M4rtinK	but probably for some offscreen area	16:47
M4rtinK	it is just that I haven't got to trying that yet	16:47
M4rtinK	so someone looking into it could speed up things quite a lot :)	16:47
M4rtinK	regarding Python 3	16:48
kerio	M4rtinK: just use python 2	16:48
M4rtinK	I'm investigating how to write code that works both with Python 2.5 & 3.2	16:48
kerio	you can't	16:48
kerio	they're wildly different languages	16:48
kerio	and 2.5 is old as shit	16:48
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M4rtinK	the only issues so far are string handling	16:49
M4rtinK	and exception handling	16:49
kerio	those are both HUGE aspects	16:49
M4rtinK	well, not only but main	16:49
M4rtinK	2.5 is what N900 uses	16:49
M4rtinK	even the Neo FreeRunner is on 2.6 or 2.7	16:49
kerio	i am aware of that :)	16:49
kerio	and meh, we could just upgrade	16:50
kerio	we'll have to do that, at some point	16:50
kerio	(to the latest 2.7)	16:50
M4rtinK	and Python 3.2 is what BB10 is using	16:50
kerio	M4rtinK: just write your code in a way that 2to3 doesn't shit its pants	16:50
M4rtinK	yeah, Fremantle has the lowest Python version from any system I know modRana runs on :)	16:51
M4rtinK	having at least 2.6 would help due to all the aditional backports	16:51
kerio	i wonder what i have that uses python	16:51
thedead1440	M4rtinK: what's the issue there? All the messages are the warning for gpg keys that are expired on nokia's servers; nothing repo.maemo.org or mirrors can do but this shouldn't stop you from doin anything... Its a message everyone has been ignoring for months already	16:52
kerio	oh, cleven and mobilehotspot	16:52
kerio	...i can live without either, really	16:52
thedead1440	doing*	16:52
M4rtinK	thedead1440: yeah, it seemed nothing is wrong	16:52
thedead1440	indeed nothing is wrong :)	16:52
kerio	thedead1440: no, the problem is that right now, some repos on rmo are broken	16:52
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thedead1440	kerio: see his logs its just gpg key issue nothing else	16:53
kerio	M4rtinK: just make modrana depend on python 2.7 :)	16:55
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M4rtinK	kerio: as long there is none in Extras it is a no go	16:55
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M4rtinK	I'm not a fan of dropping support for a platform just because I can :)	16:55
kerio	http://maemo.org/packages/view/python2.7	16:56
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M4rtinK	kerio: so appo managed to get it in before everything broke down ?	16:56
kerio	apparently	16:56
kerio	...but a -rc version, for some reason :s	16:57
M4rtinK	interesting	16:57
M4rtinK	the main questions are - how much space does it need	16:57
M4rtinK	- do PyGTK & PySide work with it ?	16:57
M4rtinK	thedead1440, DocScrutinizer05: so this is the full log I'm getting: http://privatepaste.com/65fd130f05	17:00
M4rtinK	when trying to install kmplayer	17:00
M4rtinK	is probably the same of other packages	17:00
kerio	M4rtinK: i don't think so	17:00
M4rtinK	this is what I get to install the python2.7 package, BTW: http://privatepaste.com/53c911615a	17:02
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Jaffa	Af'noon, al	17:24
Jaffa	+l	17:24
merlin1991	'lo Jaffa	17:26
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DocScrutinizer51	hi	17:34
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RST38h	https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/48127_10151401467333908_1480734954_n.jpg	18:33
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GeneralAntilles	RST38h, looks like hell.	18:37
timmy	i am on archlinux, whenever i use flasher to flash my phone everything goes well for the first time but after that when i start flasher to flash again it cannot connect and says Suitable USB device not found, waiting.	18:37
timmy	USB device found found at bus 001, device address 010.	18:37
timmy	Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy	18:37
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RST38h	General: Looks niiiice	18:38
* RST38h has been there yesterday night, but that was before the snow storm. Looks much nicer tonight.		18:39
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kerio	timmy: have you blacklisted cdc_phonet?	18:41
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timmy	no	18:42
timmy	what should i do?	18:42
M4rtinK	RST38h: quite a little snow on the photo :)	18:42
RST38h	Well, they are constantly clearing it there.	18:43
kerio	timmy: hold on, you said that the first flash goes well?	18:43
kerio	is the first flash VANILLA?	18:43
timmy	first one goes well but it can be anything.	18:44
timmy	even flashing a kernel	18:44
kerio	hm, weird	18:44
timmy	i had no such problem on debian, but here on archlinux i am facing this problem	18:44
kerio	are you rebooting the n900?	18:44
kerio	also, lsmod \| grep cdc	18:44
timmy	cdc_phonet 4550 0	18:45
timmy	phonet 20566 1 cdc_phonet	18:45
timmy	usbcore 148406 7 btusb,uhci_hcd,uvcvideo,ums_realtek,usb_storage,ehci_hcd,cdc_phonet	18:45
kerio	fukken knew it	18:45
kerio	disconnect the n900, modprobe -r cdc_phonet	18:45
timmy	what is it?	18:45
kerio	and then blacklist it	18:45
timmy	ok	18:46
timmy	tnx	18:46
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eccerr0r	curious for those long time n900 users, ever had one die for no apparent reason (versus mechanical/physical failure or user-caused failures?)	20:00
DocScrutinizer05	sure	20:02
eccerr0r	just wondering about construction/chip quality...	20:03
eccerr0r	and how long to expect this thing to last if taken care of, physically...	20:03
DocScrutinizer05	5+ years	20:03
DocScrutinizer05	of constant on	20:03
DocScrutinizer05	depends on your luck though	20:04
eccerr0r	cool.	20:04
DocScrutinizer05	modem is known to fail for no obvious reason, for some users	20:05
DocScrutinizer05	probably soldering issues or actually chip wear	20:05
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eccerr0r	ugh.	20:15
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eccerr0r	modem as in, the GSM module, so it can't make call anymore either?	20:16
kerio	yep	20:16
kerio	gps will also be busted	20:16
eccerr0r	gps is slow to make locks to begin with...	20:17
kerio	use supl.google.com	20:17
eccerr0r	my 5230 locked on GPS much faster	20:17
eccerr0r	(also AGPS)	20:17
kerio	i doubt your 5230 locked faster than 4 seconds	20:17
kerio	at least, not dramatically faster	20:17
eccerr0r	well, it was faster than the n900	20:18
Sc0rpius	yeah	20:18
Sc0rpius	the N900 is one of the most powerful phones out there	20:18
Sc0rpius	but also the slowest.	20:18
Sc0rpius	every other Nokia was faster	20:18
eccerr0r	the 5230's cpu is weak though :D	20:18
Sc0rpius	I think it has a lot to do with the full multitasking of Maemo	20:19
kerio	am i a bad enough dude to install g++, i wonder	20:19
Sc0rpius	no wonder why every other smartphone OS doesn't have full multitasking ...	20:19
eccerr0r	I'm impressed by maemo multitasking.	20:19
kerio	or, as it's known in other circles, "multitasking"	20:20
kerio	like, the one that you'd get from a preemptive OS	20:20
eccerr0r	the 5230 symbian multitasking is fail.	20:20
eccerr0r	it's enough to get around though.	20:20
kerio	the symbian multitasking was perfect, for its time	20:21
eccerr0r	I absolutely despised the fact that it dropped gsm link when you quit out of the browser	20:21
Sc0rpius	the PalmOS "multitasking" was also great	20:21
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kerio	that's not a multitasking problem	20:21
kerio	that's a connection ui problem	20:21
Sc0rpius	that has never happened to me	20:22
eccerr0r	it should have multiplexed the network correctly...	20:22
kerio	Sc0rpius: yes it did	20:22
kerio	it's not that it doesn't multiplex it, it's just that it killed connections when there was no program using them	20:22
Sc0rpius	my 3G connection is very stable in the N900	20:22
Sc0rpius	and I'm opening/closing the browser all the time	20:22
kerio	no, we're talking about symbian here	20:22
Sc0rpius	ooohh	20:22
qwazix	I loved the way symbian managed connections	20:23
qwazix	I always knew if a program was transmitting or not	20:23
qwazix	and you could connect browser over 3g the same time e.g. torrent was downloading over wifi	20:23
qwazix	awesome	20:23
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eccerr0r	it mostly worked though. Except for those connection issues.	20:23
Sc0rpius	I wonder if the Ubuntu phones will have full multitasking like Maemo, that is (for purists) if it's gonna be preemptuve	20:24
Sc0rpius	preemptive	20:24
Sc0rpius	with its scheduler and everything.	20:24
eccerr0r	linux is preemptive... it's all presentation...	20:24
qwazix	This was very well thought regarding expensive 3g. On N900 ham might kill your quota in minutes	20:24
Sc0rpius	yeah but "Ubuntu phone" is not a full Linux kernel anyway so we have to worry what will be stripped out of it	20:25
qwazix	Sc0rpius, no? and how will desktop mode work without full kernel?	20:26
Sc0rpius	you mean the "superphone" ? I wonder if that's gonna be real.	20:26
Sc0rpius	because the battery will last like 10 minutes	20:27
wmarone	stripped out?	20:27
eccerr0r	I've never actually used an iphone(or even android even)... not sure how task switching works on them... but the mini windows on the task selector in maemo is impressive, I thought they'd be static images...	20:27
Sc0rpius	there are no task switching	20:28
Sc0rpius	the application that's running on the frontend is the only application running	20:28
wmarone	well, there is "task switching"	20:28
Sc0rpius	and apps register some "events handlers"	20:28
Sc0rpius	you can switch the current application to another one	20:28
Sc0rpius	obviously	20:28
Sc0rpius	but there's always just one app running nothing else	20:28
eccerr0r	if it's possible for the foreground application to completely take over the whole touchscreen, that's a problem...	20:29
eccerr0r	that's the case for my 5230 for the native icq client, but at least the hardware buttons could break out of the application)	20:30
kerio	eccerr0r: there's little to no task switching on iOS	20:30
kerio	for a precise reason	20:30
kerio	and applications are always fullscreen, in some way	20:31
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thedead1440	kerio: the specs war has made even iOS capable to mult-task in different ways... see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q_DvfOOeJE	20:32
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kerio	hey, it's still a bsd kernel underneath	20:34
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thedead1440	indeed but due to the specs war things which were once unthinkable are now doable with work-arounds on iOS too	20:34
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kerio	do you guys reckon that /usr/include can be optified?	20:39
Sc0rpius	well in the iOS case no task switching is "great"	20:40
Sc0rpius	I have an iPad 2 that I use a lot and the battery last AGES	20:40
Sc0rpius	AAAAAAAAAAAAAGEEEEEEEEES	20:40
Sc0rpius	and that's great though	20:40
Sc0rpius	I would sacrifice multitasking for that in a phone	20:40
Sc0rpius	my N900 lasts like 4 hours in 3G	20:41
luf	Sc0rpius: my colleague tested linux on Apple HW and said it's 6h on batteries for iOS versus 1,5 hour for linux	20:42
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kerio	ok, optified include	20:43
kerio	i hope everything goes well	20:43
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DocScrutinizer05	guess who's top bandwidth hog on our rmo	20:46
DocScrutinizer05	121.203.146.188.in-addr.arpa. 43200 IN PTR 188.146.203.121.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl.	20:46
kerio	:o	20:46
cehteh	are the repositories back?	20:48
DocScrutinizer05	which also means our throttling of top10 non-APT-maemo clients to 75kBit/s works just fine	20:48
DocScrutinizer05	cehteh: basically yes	20:48
cehteh	\o/	20:48
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: i had a less-than-10kb/s download to prove you wrong	20:49
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DocScrutinizer05	cehteh: we're just facing quite a few bandwidth problems	20:49
* cehteh just hits 'update'		20:49
cehteh	lucky you that i dont have 1k devices :P	20:49
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: you prove me wrong? on what, Sir?	20:49
kerio	on the fact that it doesn't work just fine! >:c	20:50
DocScrutinizer05	BS	20:50
cehteh	looks stuck here	20:50
DocScrutinizer05	the fact that you didn't get >75kBit/s proves it's working excellent	20:50
eccerr0r	will there be a round robin mirrored r.m.o sometime?	20:51
DocScrutinizer05	sometime, maybe	20:51
luf	DocScrutinizer05: let's shutdown the r.m.o. and nobody can get >75kBit/s ;)	20:51
eccerr0r	Gentoo portage would suck if it were all dumped ont one server...	20:51
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DocScrutinizer05	luf: hahaha	20:51
luf	DocScrutinizer05: let's try to count how long it takes to download 9MB (extras-dev) abd 3,5MB (testing or tools) with 10kBit/s speed ...	20:52
eccerr0r	is there an etiquette of updates, like Gentoo tries to stop people from syncing more than once a day...	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	luf: I could put 89.102.208.114 on the blacklist manually	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	luf: why do you think I'm interested in such silly math games?	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	isn't that for kindergarden?	20:53
luf	DocScrutinizer05: fell free to do it. My wife will appreciate it.	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	honestly, I didn't come here to get flames for trying to manage available bandwidth for you >:-(	20:54
luf	DocScrutinizer05: Maybe I red it wrong but it seems to me you're satisfied with the current situation.	20:54
DocScrutinizer05	read again!	20:55
DocScrutinizer05	cehteh: just another 1k? pfff	20:56
eccerr0r	is it mostly the repository indexes that's being hammered or actual package files?	20:56
DocScrutinizer05	packages.gz	20:56
eccerr0r	so the index.	20:56
Estel_	kerio, I don't get the dillema	20:56
luf	DocScrutinizer05: I'm sorry I'm too tired today.	20:56
DocScrutinizer05	and suckers running wget against whole repo, which we throttled down to 75kBit/s now	20:56
Estel_	if bq27x00 is calibrated, use it for everything	20:56
Sc0rpius	~mirrors	20:56
infobot	somebody said mirror was http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143	20:57
Estel_	bars, percents, capacity, everything	20:57
Estel_	If not, use capacity, bars, etc from hald-addon-bme (but current and voltage still from bq27x00)	20:57
Estel_	if bq27x00 isn't available at all (no module loaded) use hald-addon-bme	20:57
Estel_	problem solved	20:57
kerio	Estel_: my question is different	20:57
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Estel_	now, it uses prorities properly, but still take bars from rx51 or god knows what	20:58
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: ack	20:58
Estel_	= it sayd 47% but shows full bars on battery	20:58
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kerio	Estel_: install +kerio1	20:58
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, ?	20:58
kerio	but that's not my question, really	20:58
Estel_	kerio, I know, thanks	20:58
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: you're right	20:58
Estel_	but why you have disabled everything except bq27x00	20:58
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, ah, thanks	20:58
kerio	my question is, should hald-addon-bme report the data from bq27k? it's supposed to be the "official" way to get battery data in maemo	20:59
kerio	together with libbmeipc	20:59
Estel_	and how it gets data now?	20:59
kerio	if so, then the battery applet becomes just a frontend for hald-addon-bme, and it makes more sense	20:59
eccerr0r	I need to get a copy of the reflash images someday. seems tablet-dev.nokia.com has died too :(	20:59
kerio	Estel_: from the modules, but stuff like "design" is taken from rx51, for instance	20:59
Estel_	kerio, ok, it's dillema for future, but now, why won't we set applet to do priorities as I just said	21:00
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: fsck "design", make that 1320 hardcoded!	21:00
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kerio	also, pali seems fixated in wanting to use design when he should be using full_charge	21:01
Estel_	well, as said bq27x00 when available, if uncalibrated, take capacity and % from whatever else (hald-addon-bme from rx51), and if no module at all, take everything from hald-addon-bme (rx51)	21:01
DocScrutinizer05	maybe with a way to override the defualt on module load time, with a module parameter	21:01
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, won't happen, Pali doesn't want to use anything non-upstreamed on bq27x00	21:01
Estel_	so no custom Maemo settings	21:02
DocScrutinizer05	pfff	21:02
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: indeed ._.	21:02
Estel_	unless someone make patch and upstream it - to make parameter at load time accepted - no way :/	21:02
DocScrutinizer05	this shit is FULL OFF maemo settings	21:02
Estel_	anyway	21:02
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, but upstreamed	21:02
DocScrutinizer05	starting with 20mR value of RS	21:02
Estel_	he just doesn't want to make maintaining harder	21:02
Estel_	which is quite understandable. Well, seriously though, just screw it and do as proposed, bq27x00 when available and calibrated, and everything else if not	21:03
DocScrutinizer05	how t f will maintaining get harder when you assume sane defaults and implement a standard way to override them?	21:03
DocScrutinizer05	particularly when compared to the alternative that seems like using random generator for "design capacity"	21:04
Estel_	I would add middle-variant of bq27x00 available but not calibrated - in such case, everything ėxcept capacities and % would be from bq27x00 too, - but i can live without this variant, too	21:04
kerio	Estel_: my issue is that we should, instead, get hald-addon-bme to report the correct values instead	21:04
kerio	in hal-device bme	21:04
kerio	so the battery applet becomes everything-agnostic	21:04
Estel_	kerio, I have no opinion here, as long as end-user result is what I said - bq27x00 > rx51_battery	21:04
Estel_	I don't care how it's processed internally, frankly	21:05
Estel_	I just want this applet to consider 3 simple variants, no matter if it's frontend, half backend, or whatsnot	21:05
Estel_	afaik nothing else cares about capacity	21:05
kerio	reporting correct values in /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/bme is better	21:05
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Estel_	well, BTW, why not make hald-addon-bme follow same rules?	21:06
Estel_	ok	21:06
Estel_	so	21:06
kerio	and also making the battery applet use last_full instead of design	21:06
Estel_	if bq27x00 is available pand calibrated, hald-addon-bme takes everything from it	21:06
kerio	because why the hell should i care of how full the battery is compared to when it was built?	21:06
Estel_	sure	21:06
Estel_	so, as i said.	21:06
kerio	yes, as you said	21:06
kerio	:)	21:06
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DocScrutinizer05	we got hald-addon-bme replacement that should hide any hw side differneces from hal and thus from battery applet	21:06
Estel_	if bq27x00 not calibrated but available, take everything from bq27x00 too, but capacity and percent from rx51_battery	21:06
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: indeed, but it's not what the replacement battery applet does, for compatibility with hybrid situations	21:07
Estel_	if no bq27x00 at all, hald-addon-bme takes everything from rx51_battery	21:07
Estel_	problem solved	21:07
kerio	what does rx51_battery provide, anyway?	21:07
DocScrutinizer05	have fun with that, guys	21:07
eccerr0r	are there mirros for the reflash images and flasher? or do we have to wait till nokia fixes their server?	21:07
DocScrutinizer05	~mirrors	21:07
infobot	it has been said that mirror is http://maemo-archive.wedrop.it/ http://maemo.merlin1991.at/apt-mirror/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143	21:07
Estel_	I think in long run we don't need to care about hybrids, as bq27x00_battery ism part of replacement, as much as new hald-addon-bme	21:08
kerio	Estel_: the problem is that pali will start going "i want the battery applet to work even when users have stopped bme and loaded the kernel modules", except in a more broken english	21:08
Estel_	but, for now, some hybrid approach may be feasible	21:08
DocScrutinizer05	~skeiron	21:08
kerio	eccerr0r: skeiron.org/tablets-dev	21:08
Estel_	kerio, nope, as user is never meant to stop replacement bme	21:08
Estel_	as replacement bme doesn't interfere with anything	21:08
kerio	coff coff i2cget coff coff	21:08
Estel_	You MUST NOT stop replacement bme	21:08
eccerr0r	ahh, ok.	21:09
Estel_	what do you need i2c access with replacement bme for?	21:09
kerio	eccerr0r: i'm not sure about the long-term solution for that	21:09
Estel_	I just released new version of my BNF scriptset, that replaces everything that relied on i2c, for relying on bq27x00 (and failsback to i2c if no module). If I was able to do it overnight, others can too	21:09
Estel_	do we need i2c for anything else?	21:10
DocScrutinizer05	~skeiron is hte semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources: http://http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143	21:10
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	21:10
eccerr0r	need to set up a bittorrent :D	21:10
DocScrutinizer05	infobot: no, skeiron is the semi-official backup and emergency standin for all internet borne maemo resources: http://http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1315143#post1315143	21:10
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: okay	21:10
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: no fremantle/tools	21:11
eccerr0r	how loaded down is skeiron, or is there a time of day that would be better for me to download it?	21:11
kerio	oh, there is, but the bzip2ped Packages is broken	21:11
Estel_	kerio, DocScrutinizer05, any other practical uses for i2c other than battery chip info?	21:12
Estel_	kerio, anyway	21:12
Estel_	if no bme available, but module is loaded, use it. If module available but not calibrated and no bme, use this damn design value and show middle finger	21:12
DocScrutinizer05	Estel_: there are like several dozen subsystems on 3 I2C busses, on N900	21:12
Estel_	problem solved anyway	21:12
Estel_	just two more IF's	21:12
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, I know	21:12
DocScrutinizer05	eccerr0r: don't worry	21:13
Estel_	I just wonde if we use i2c raw access for any practical purpose except battery chip	21:13
DocScrutinizer05	use it and profit	21:13
DocScrutinizer05	who's "we"?	21:13
eccerr0r	okay. since these are fairly large files :D	21:13
Estel_	DocScrutinizer05, we - "family" of maemo related people	21:13
Estel_	i.e. anyone ever used it for anything else and lived to tell the tale	21:14
Estel_	and produce something productive using it	21:14
DocScrutinizer05	no, "we" usually don't care about I2C, there are kernel drivers doing that for us	21:14
Estel_	thats what I thought	21:14
Estel_	anyway	21:14
Estel_	if someone want raw i2c access	21:14
Estel_	he can disable bme and live with innacurate battery capacity readings for fckin 5 mins	21:14
Estel_	methinks	21:14
DocScrutinizer05	yup, that's the general tale	21:15
DocScrutinizer05	if you want access an I2C chip directly, you first need to unload the kernel module driver	21:15
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kerio	anyway, we should convince pali to provide the most correct data in hald-addon-bme	21:16
Estel_	kerio, to convince Pali to anything, You MUST create a wiki page	21:16
Estel_	~must	21:16
Estel_	~musn't	21:16
Estel_	~useless	21:17
* infobot starts crying and hides from estel_ in the darkest corner of the room. :(		21:17
Estel_	as til tommorow no one will remember simple solutions from today, posted on irc	21:17
Estel_	btw that pun over Pali's english wasn't nice, kerio	21:18
Estel_	reminds me of tetowaki's bitching yesterday	21:18
kerio	~2119	21:19
infobot	The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	21:19
kerio	Estel_: i feel somewhat authorized to mock him, i'm not a native english speaker either	21:19
Estel_	ohp thanks	21:20
kerio	and it shows, sometimes, but i put the effort in at least :s	21:20
Estel_	~#maemo must is also ~2119	21:20
infobot	okay, Estel_	21:20
Estel_	~#maemo musn't is also ~2119	21:20
infobot	okay, Estel_	21:20
kerio	doesn't work that way i think	21:20
kerio	~must	21:20
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, must is ~2119	21:20
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kerio	infobot: no, must is <reply>see 2119	21:20
Estel_	it was what I meant	21:20
infobot	kerio: okay	21:20
Estel_	ah	21:21
Estel_	even better	21:21
kerio	infobot: no, mustn't is <reply>see 2119	21:21
infobot	kerio: okay	21:21
kerio	~must	21:21
infobot	well, must is ~2119	21:21
Estel_	:P	21:21
kerio	ah crap	21:21
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: i screwed up default must in infobot	21:21
kerio	is there a way to recover it?	21:21
Estel_	infobot, no, must is The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	21:21
infobot	Estel_: okay	21:21
Estel_	~must	21:21
infobot	must is, like, ~2119	21:21
kerio	infobot: no, #maemo must is <reply>see 2119	21:22
infobot	okay, kerio	21:22
kerio	infobot: forget about must	21:22
infobot	kerio: i didn't have anything called 'about must' to forget	21:22
kerio	infobot: forget must	21:22
Estel_	~forget must	21:22
infobot	i forgot must, kerio	21:22
kerio	infobot: forget mustn't	21:22
infobot	i forgot mustn't, kerio	21:22
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kerio	infobot: #maemo mustn't is <reply>see 2119	21:22
infobot	okay, kerio	21:22
kerio	~must	21:22
infobot	The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	21:22
kerio	there	21:22
kerio	this was harder than it should've been	21:22
Estel_	~musn't	21:22
infobot	somebody said musn't was ~2119	21:22
Estel_	~mustn't	21:23
infobot	The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	21:23
Estel_	screwed	21:23
kerio	infobot: forget musn't	21:23
infobot	i didn't have anything called 'musn't' to forget, kerio	21:23
kerio	infobot: forget #maemo musn't	21:23
infobot	kerio: i forgot #maemo musn't	21:23
Estel_	~forget mustn't	21:23
infobot	Estel_: i didn't have anything called 'mustn't' to forget	21:23
Estel_	~must	21:23
infobot	The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	21:23
Estel_	~musn't	21:23
Estel_	infobot: #maemo musn't is <reply>see 2119	21:24
infobot	okay, Estel_	21:24
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Estel_	~musn't	21:24
infobot	The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	21:24
kerio	wtf is "musn't"	21:24
Estel_	must not?	21:24
kerio	nope	21:24
Estel_	so blame my english too ;)	21:25
kerio	infobot: forget #maemo musn't	21:25
infobot	i forgot #maemo musn't, kerio	21:25
Sc0rpius	it should be mustn't	21:25
Estel_	yea	21:25
Sc0rpius	even though it is pronounced musn't but it is mustn't	21:25
Estel_	damn, it's harder to write than must not	21:25
Sc0rpius	yeah hehe	21:26
Estel_	yes yes, got my brainwave activated again, about it	21:26
Estel_	thanks anyway	21:26
DocScrutinizer05	don't mess with infobot factoids when you don't know what you're doing	21:32
DocScrutinizer05	~forget _default mustn't	21:32
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: i didn't have anything called '_default mustn't' to forget	21:32
DocScrutinizer05	~unforget _default mustn't	21:33
infobot	DocScrutinizer05: that factoid was not backedup :/	21:33
DocScrutinizer05	meh	21:33
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DocScrutinizer05	~forget _default musn't	21:35
infobot	i didn't have anything called '_default musn't' to forget, DocScrutinizer05	21:35
Estel_	we cleaned it up, afterwards.	21:35
Estel_	anyway, kerio, you ~must create wiki page to convince Pali about anything... Installing your fixed deb, thanks!	21:35
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: i was confused by the channel prefix :(	21:38
kerio	anyway, any generic factoid for "must" is clearly stupid	21:39
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: yep, that can get confusing sometimes. Zhe more important is to check a factoid with ~literal <factoid> before redefining it	21:54
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: however, I must say I don't see how a #maemo specific refernece to RFC2119 makes more sense than a _default factoid for 'must' (if there ever been any)	22:05
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WizardNumberNext	kerio: ping	22:34
kerio	pong	22:34
DocScrutinizer05	~ding	22:35
infobot	dong	22:35
WizardNumberNext	what do I have to put on 3.8rc3 cmdline?	22:35
WizardNumberNext	or it was Pali	22:35
WizardNumberNext	?	22:35
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WizardNumberNext	kerio: it is Pali	22:41
WizardNumberNext	Pali ping	22:41
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n900-dk	Anyone able to download shortcutd atm? Fails when I try to install via HAM	23:12
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WizardNumberNext	n900-dk: are you trying to use rmo?	23:17
n900-dk	yeah, it downloads but gives 'Hash Sum mismatch'	23:18
kerio	n900-dk: from which repo? -devel?	23:18
kerio	use extras-devel.merlin1991.at	23:18
WizardNumberNext	ask somebody else, then - I cannot even connect at the moment	23:18
M4rtinK	n900-dk: I'm also getting hash mismatch	23:19
n900-dk	kerio: rmo - extras-devel	23:19
M4rtinK	on every package I've tried so far	23:19
kerio	yeah, use merlin1991's mirror	23:19
kerio	is the bestest	23:19
n900-dk	kerio: thx	23:19
M4rtinK	well, I would rather like to know what's wrong :)	23:20
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M4rtinK	maybe it gets corrupted during to the excruciatingly slow download ? :)	23:20
kerio	nah, it's just that the last repo update was interrupted somehow	23:22
kerio	possibly due to the migration	23:22
DocScrutinizer05	M4rtinK: it's most probably a bug in autobuilder	23:23
DocScrutinizer05	merlin1991: ping	23:23
DocScrutinizer05	merlin1991: you looked into that, together with thedead1440, no? Could you enlighten us please what's been your findings and conclusions	23:24
teotwaki	Findings: "It doesn't work". Conclusion: "It still doesn't work".	23:25
M4rtinK	so recently built packages might be corrupted ?	23:25
M4rtinK	I'll try something older	23:25
DocScrutinizer05	teotwaki: not helpful	23:25
teotwaki	DocScrutinizer05: it's jolly banter, it's not supposed to be.	23:26
n900-dk	How much bandwidth do we have for rmo?	23:26
kerio	n900-dk: not enough	23:27
n900-dk	kerio: :)	23:27
M4rtinK	DocScrutinizer05: I'm trying libavutil49	23:28
M4rtinK	last update is from 2011, so it should be free from any autobuilder induced corruption	23:29
M4rtinK	DocScrutinizer05: installed fine	23:29
n900-dk	Oh, seems like it's 25mbps - wonder what the bandwidth was before. 25mbps is also quite a lot for not so many n900s	23:31
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M4rtinK	it seems to be maxed most of the time	23:33
M4rtinK	BTW, the akamai statistics showed about 40k N900s	23:33
DocScrutinizer05	30k	23:34
DocScrutinizer05	40k maemo devices	23:34
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M4rtinK	oh yeah ale all the N<900	23:35
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: so there's still 10k n810s?	23:36
n900-dk	but still, as long as they don't attack rmo at the same time, I guess 25mbps could be enough	23:36
DocScrutinizer05	it's not	23:37
DocScrutinizer05	40k = 0.5 updates / second	23:37
DocScrutinizer05	0.5 update = 3, 5 or 8 MB / 2	23:38
DocScrutinizer05	4MB /s = 40Mbit/s	23:38
DocScrutinizer05	plus we got other leechers too	23:39
DocScrutinizer05	though we throttled the 10 worst of them	23:39
teotwaki	4MB/s = 32Mbit/s	23:39
teotwaki	ok, ok, I'll stfu.	23:39
DocScrutinizer05	better, before you lose	23:40
DocScrutinizer05	when I start about overhead	23:40
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teotwaki	aye	23:40
teotwaki	the TCP overhead on small files is ridiculous	23:40
teotwaki	FTP is even worse.	23:41
DocScrutinizer05	this is HTTP afaik	23:41
teotwaki	aye, which is why I said "FTP is even worse"	23:42
* ShadowJK would guess 1-2k overhead		23:42
n900-dk	Could be interesting to see the MRTGs	23:42
teotwaki	MRTGs are roughly useless on file servers.	23:42
teotwaki	top and iftop, and sar, are the only useful tools.	23:43
DocScrutinizer05	iftop	23:43
DocScrutinizer05	is what I use	23:43
teotwaki	DocScrutinizer05: what's the iowait on the server?	23:43
DocScrutinizer05	top is not interesting any more, since varnish dropped CPU load to 98% idle	23:44
teotwaki	top; s0.1	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	top - 21:43:37 up 11 days, 3:46, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.11, 0.14	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	Tasks: 110 total, 1 running, 109 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	Cpu(s): 0.1%us, 1.0%sy, 0.0%ni, 91.9%id, 4.7%wa, 0.0%hi, 1.0%si, 1.3%st	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	Mem: 2049296k total, 2032840k used, 16456k free, 44388k buffers	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	Swap: 2097144k total, 17860k used, 2079284k free, 1284840k cached	23:44
teotwaki	so still 5% iowait	23:44
teotwaki	only GB ram?	23:45
n900-dk	so the 25mbps are maxed all day?	23:45
teotwaki	s/y/y 2/	23:45
infobot	teotwaki meant: only 2 GB ram?	23:45
DocScrutinizer05	yes, all day	23:45
DocScrutinizer05	and night	23:45
WizardNumberNext	only 1 user?	23:45
WizardNumberNext	that is very uncommon	23:45
teotwaki	WizardNumberNext: one tty	23:45
teotwaki	WizardNumberNext: it would be uncommon to see more than 3 on a server.	23:46
DocScrutinizer05	indeed	23:46
WizardNumberNext	I see, I got it wrong	23:46
n900-dk	How much extra will they charge us for 50mbps?	23:46
WizardNumberNext	top tells me 20 users, but I have multiple sessions of konsole all around 9 dekstops	23:46
DocScrutinizer05	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1320780#post1320780	23:46
WizardNumberNext	but 4.7 wait is really a lot	23:47
teotwaki	WizardNumberNext: yeah, even for a desktop that's a lot	23:47
teotwaki	WizardNumberNext: not quite, want to see the output of one of my servers?	23:47
kerio	wait, what's "wait" in cpu measurement?	23:48
WizardNumberNext	teotwaki are you using i386 to get more then that?	23:48
WizardNumberNext	wait is waiting for pretty much everything	23:48
n900-dk	oh, they will add it for free? Or just temporary?	23:48
M4rtinK	DocScrutinizer05: Thanks!	23:48
kerio	why would you use cpu to wait? :o	23:48
teotwaki	top - 22:48:59 up 75 days, 5:24, 1 user, load average: 1.23, 1.20, 1.20	23:49
teotwaki	Tasks: 105 total, 2 running, 103 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie	23:49
teotwaki	Cpu0 : 16.3%us, 2.7%sy, 0.0%ni, 6.6%id, 72.4%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 2.0%st	23:49
teotwaki	Cpu1 : 0.3%us, 0.3%sy, 0.0%ni, 99.3%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.0%st	23:49
teotwaki	Mem: 4194304k total, 4183076k used, 11228k free, 96812k buffers	23:49
teotwaki	Swap: 2097144k total, 92k used, 2097052k free, 3332500k cached	23:49
WizardNumberNext	because not everything can be written to use interrupt in common-sense	23:49
ShadowJK	kerio; waiting for disk I/O	23:49
teotwaki	disk or network	23:49
kerio	in a busyloop?	23:49
WizardNumberNext	top - 21:47:56 up 14 days, 8:14, 2 users, load average: 0.22, 0.15, 0.11	23:50
teotwaki	in this case, this server streams binary logs from a fileserver, parses them and inserts the lot of data in a mysql server	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Tasks: 359 total, 1 running, 358 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Cpu0 : 0.1%us, 0.2%sy, 0.1%ni, 99.4%id, 0.1%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.2%si, 0.0%st	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Cpu1 : 0.1%us, 0.2%sy, 0.1%ni, 99.3%id, 0.3%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.0%st	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Cpu2 : 0.1%us, 0.2%sy, 0.1%ni, 99.5%id, 0.1%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.0%st	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Cpu3 : 0.1%us, 0.2%sy, 0.0%ni, 97.4%id, 0.1%wa, 0.0%hi, 2.2%si, 0.0%st	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Mem: 8169012k total, 7835824k used, 333188k free, 808400k buffers	23:50
WizardNumberNext	Swap: 2097148k total, 0k used, 2097148k free, 3777192k cached	23:50
WizardNumberNext	my server	23:50
kerio	dude, excessive	23:50
WizardNumberNext	why I have to use CPU to to idle?	23:51
teotwaki	14 days of uptime is pretty shit for a server :)	23:51
kerio	WizardNumberNext: you don't, that's the unused cpu	23:51
WizardNumberNext	teotwaki: 3.6.11-rt25 hunged on kvm	23:51
teotwaki	lemme try and find one of our other beasts, hang on	23:51
ShadowJK	kerio; no not busyloop. In Linux 2.2 it was included in idle number instead	23:52
* DocScrutinizer05 yawns and heads out		23:52
WizardNumberNext	P.S. that's on 800MHz in 99,999% of time	23:52
WizardNumberNext	I have to load core to 95% to jump to next higher frequency	23:53
M4rtinK	just 4 logical CPUs ? :)	23:53
ShadowJK	please no more pastes	23:53
M4rtinK	pfft :)	23:53
M4rtinK	our lab has (multiple ?) 48 log-cpu compute servers	23:54
WizardNumberNext	and 65% will put it to next lower frequency (tweaked C'n'Q and cpufreq-conservative)	23:54
WizardNumberNext	M4rtinK: that is my home-server! I do not need anything more powerfull	23:54
M4rtinK	any top that has line-per-cpu is pretty much unusable on them :)	23:54
WizardNumberNext	it is overkill already - my first one was AMD Athlon 650	23:55
M4rtinK	pretty nice, generates global Monav routing data in 5 hours :)	23:55
kerio	M4rtinK: but what if you want to know precisely what the cpu #33 is doing?	23:55
M4rtinK	grep ? :)	23:55
kerio	hehe	23:55
ShadowJK	kerio; WA is like "cpu idle, but there are processes waiting to run that can't run because system is waiting on data"	23:56
kerio	i see	23:56
ShadowJK	For example a cp of a big file will make WA go to almost 99%	23:57
WizardNumberNext	or NFS on one of my 372GiB HDD	23:57
ShadowJK	But if you simultaneously run a cpu hog, WA will be 0% because the cpu will just run the cpu hog while I/O is in progress	23:57
WizardNumberNext	strangly SAMBA have no problem	23:57
ShadowJK	problem?	23:58
merlin1991	DocScrutinizer05: pong	23:58
WizardNumberNext	strangly one of 400gb SATA HDDs is very slow with NFS (unusble for anything above few KiB), but on SAMBA there is nothing like that happening - happily swolows everything what is thrown at it	23:59

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