IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2013-01-15

keriowirr: have you recompiled everything?00:01
keriono, wait, the whole distro is hardfloat00:02
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wirrkerio: afaik nemo kernel is hfp00:07
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wirrI'm wondering what would be the correct xorg driver to use... ti published hardfloat sgx drivers00:07
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Skrywirr: -fbdev-sgx from mer/nemo, with their libs00:13
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wirrSkry: thanks, you wouldn't happen to have a list of the required files? :)00:16
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Skrywirr: sure,
SkryI use those on Arch Linux myself01:17
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ShadowJKi don't think you need kernel for hardfloat abi02:25
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allotrope94Hi everyone04:14
allotrope94Is down?04:14
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allotrope94I need to get packages for Maemo 4.1/OS2008 (N810)04:18
allotrope94Oh okay. Good :)04:19
GeneralAntillesMoving to a community-financed infrastructure.04:19
allotrope94I know it is old haha04:19
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allotrope94GeneralAntilles: Thanks04:32
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orlokoh wow06:04
orlokthere are people here06:04
orlokI'm still using an N900 as my everyday phone06:07
orlokgot USB plug issues?06:08
orloki have to sit the end of the USB cable on something to make it charge06:08
wmaroneI can only charge the thing using a korean power adaptor I got from the tizen conference last year06:08
wmaronenothing else works06:08
wmaroneI should probably replace the socket06:08
orlokN9 doesnt have a keyboard, does it?06:08
orlokI just bought a new battery for it - Doesnt power on! :-(06:12
orlokIts the only phone i have ever felt happy using06:13
wmaronethat's not good06:15
wmaronethis is why I'm hoping Jolla does something good this year06:16
johnsu01orlok: that just happened to me the other day but then I changed cables and it worked06:16
johnsu01without sitting anything on the end06:16
orlokjohnsu01: does it for me with both USB and charger06:20
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robbiethe1stFortunately, new/used N900s are cheap now06:20
robbiethe1steasy to replace off ebay06:21
allotrope94Hi again. When will come up again?06:21
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allotrope94I wanted to install a few applications for an old N81006:22
wmaroneprobably within a day or so06:23
allotrope94wmarone: okay cool.06:24
allotrope94Just didn't want it to be next year or something :)06:24
wmaroneit's up for me, so you probably need DNS to update06:24
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allotrope94Still not for me :( Did you check Or
wmaronemight be a while06:29
allotrope94Oh I see. It is taking a while here06:29
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allotrope94It's up, just really slow06:31
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Ex-OpesaWhile the repos are very slow. Is there a recent back up we can configure our devices to?07:52
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tadzikdoes work for you?10:12
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kerioalso /topic10:15
tadzikbah, sorry10:15
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vi____when I have to comment code with:13:12
vi____'//Nasty bodge to stop lamp fault occouring when we only have an 02 sensor (i.e. not lamp).'13:12
vi____I feel bad.13:13
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freemangordonvi____: hi man, long time no see, where you've been?13:24
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vi____Busy IRL.13:27
vi____How have you been FMG?13:27
vi____and speedevil!13:27
vi____We have a whole party here!13:27
vi____My job told me take my holidays or lose them for the year.13:27
vi____So I had to take all of December off work.13:28
SpeedEvilpoor you. :-)13:28
freemangordonoh, yes :(13:28
freemangordonHow did you survive the whole month of a holiday? :P13:29
vi____It was tough.  A real challenge of my will, strength and metal.13:29
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vi____Actually the hardest thing was not allowing myself to waste time all day playing video games and other timewasteing shit.13:30
* freemangordon goes off for lunch, bbl13:30
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qwazixDocScrutinizer05, ping13:46
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Ex-OpesaDid the "grid guy" reply or anything?13:50
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: pong14:50
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qwazixHi DocScrutinizer05, xes from tmo contacted me about becoming sysop14:59
qwazixI invited him to come to #maemo and discuss14:59
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qwazixI introduced him a bit to the task at hand15:00
DocScrutinizer05just today I feel like drowning in "WTF is wrong with *!?!!"15:00
qwazixtold him that he's the one who'll have to tell how much time will be needed or what the final architecture will be15:01
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: if again Nemein is letting us down, we need to ponder alternative ways to a nice chat with them15:01
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hanninghey, are there currently known problems accessing the repos on
hanninglooks like a yes? ;)15:01
qwazixyes and I wonder why doesn't freemangordon have a shitstorm of complaints yet15:02
qwazix(I received today thumb update notification which cannot be installed due to normal repos down)15:03
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hanningbtw is anyone using ssh+screen+irssi on maemo? some of irssi'S windows just dontT get updated correctly and i have no idea what'S the cause of this15:05
qwazixoh by the I also told xes that we still don't know about how much such a job could be paid, if at all, but it is not possible with current funds to even get close to market prices for this kind of job15:05
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qwazixs/by the/by the way/15:05
infobotqwazix meant: oh by the way I also told xes that we still don't know about how much such a job could be paid, if at all, but it is not possible with current funds to even get close to market prices for this kind of job15:05
qwazixThat's all, just keeping you posted in case I'm not around when he shows up.15:06
ShadowJKhanning; tried pressing page down?15:10
Lava_Crofthanning: or /redraw15:12
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: we need to kick some backsides right now15:14
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: * downtime just exceeded 24h15:15
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: my patience is used up15:15
qwazixI'm not sure I get the meaning of the idiom 'kick backsides'15:15
qwazixWhat do you have in mind instead of screaming @nemein?15:16
DocScrutinizer05I'm willing to wait another 60min for Eero to answer my "wtf is going on?" query15:16
qwazixs/instead/apart from/15:16
infobotqwazix meant: What do you have in mind apart from of screaming @nemein?15:16
DocScrutinizer05then we need to evaluate our options15:17
qwazixBig Q: do we have the VHD's at hand?15:17
DocScrutinizer05after all it's still nokia responsibility, since transfer to hiFo not yet happened15:17
DocScrutinizer05~wtf vhd15:17
infobotGee...  I don't know what vhd means...15:17
qwazixVirtual hard disks. Can we do anything bypassing nemein completely?15:18
DocScrutinizer05Nokia is supposed to pay Nemein for a service. we don't see that service happening15:19
DocScrutinizer05who's to blame?15:19
qwazixyeah but we can't ping Nokia quickly anyway15:19
qwazixI has to be done through board15:20
DocScrutinizer05oooh sure we can, don't you think there's going to rise a shitstorm if we ask community to give Nokia helpdesk a phonecall?15:20
vi____You need me to phone nokia helpsdesk?15:21
DocScrutinizer05vi____: you're free to do that any time15:21
qwazixImagine if one letter to elop caused a reaction, what will happen if everybody called Nokia...15:21
vi____A letter fo flop?15:21
vi____what happened?15:21
vi____^to flop15:21
qwazixYeah, one member sent a letter to elop, in no way implying that he was talking on behalf of community15:22
qwazixand people negotiating with board for the infra told board not to do this again15:22
DocScrutinizer05well, he got an answer15:23
vi____was it abill_uk?15:23
vi____wyho was it?15:23
vi____orange box?15:23
DocScrutinizer05and it been board telling the user not to do this again, while nokia didn't even mention it15:23
Gh0stywhat was the letter about?15:25
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DocScrutinizer05it's just that board suspected that this letter caused certain people in Nokia to get aware of maemo and thus taking action so secdond draft of contracts they offered was worse than first15:26
qwazixMy take is that those two things are just unrelated15:27
DocScrutinizer05my take on it though is that board's answer and comments/complaints about first contract draft made lawyers aware of problems they didn't even notice with their first draft15:27
DocScrutinizer05whatever, * down, Nemein not responding since ~24h15:28
DocScrutinizer05I'm waiting another 32min, then pondering what gun to fire next15:28
* DocScrutinizer05 warming up the MTHELs15:29
AoyagiNuke it from orbit.15:29
AoyagiAnd dealings of the community with Nokia sound really interesting. Dedication too, huh.15:30
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: wanna land you a BFG9000?15:30
qwazixI prefer dual enforcers and a redeemer15:32
AoyagiEnforcers are great.15:33
* jonwil is trying to figure out what part of Maemo to reverse engineer next15:33
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: nice15:34
freemangordonjonwil: what has happened with clockd?15:34
jonwilDidn't get anywhere with that15:34
jonwilmostly because it has a whole pile of features I just cant test15:35
keriojonwil: icd2 applet15:35
jonwilyeah I am seriously considering the mess that is ICD15:35
kerioto add gprs connections and configure gprs, usb and dummy15:35
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freemangordonkerio: why not bnep too15:35
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jonwilok, so the ICD daemon and its plugins support these features but the various configuration applets do not?15:36
keriofreemangordon: i kinda don't want bnep in icd2's hands15:37
keriounless as a PANU i suppos15:37
jonwilbut yeah I have already been investigating the connectivity UI for ages with little success15:38
jonwilThe only reason I was able to do connui-home-cellular is because its comparitivley simple15:39
jonwilbut I think for the GPRS stuff one would need to look at connui-iapsettings-gprs15:39
vi____reverse microb plox15:40
jonwilmicrob engine is open15:40
jonwilmicrob UI is far too complex to reverse engineer for a novice like me15:40
keriofreemangordon: it's kinda easy to configure a NAP for point-to-point connection15:40
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; I'm guessing the machines are overloaded :D15:40
kerioas a fire and forget thing15:41
jonwilEspecially since it uses C++ (microb that is)15:41
kerioyou need luf's bluez and kp52 though15:41
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: some network issues it seems15:41
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: [2013-01-14 17:21:16] <mashiara> I have a feeling you slashdotted us, the cpu loads were manageable but I fear there is some throttle on the network somewhere15:42
jonwilbut yeah reverse engineering anything using GTK is very hard :(15:42
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ShadowJKlol, maemo slashdotting something.. shows there's still users :P15:47
DocScrutinizer0560,000 last I heard15:47
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DocScrutinizer05and I actually hope some of them already started pestering Nokia helpdesk about their online update / HAM stopped working15:49
ShadowJKmost wont notice15:50
* ShadowJK guesses upper bound for "auto update" bandwidth as 70Mbit/s15:51
ShadowJKif we could push non-cssu update to increase update refresh interval to a week... :)15:52
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jonwilok, so someone wanna suggest something I can actually reverse engineer? :)15:54
freemangordonjonwil: mce? there is x86 binary15:55
jonwilalready tried MCE and failed :)15:55
freemangordoneven with hexrays?15:56
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jonwilI have tried and failed to clone some of the MCE plugins15:56
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freemangordonjonwil: there are plenty of x86 closed binaries in "/usr/lib/hildon-control-panel"15:59
jonwilI am thinking maybe I will go with my original plan and start looking deeper into ICD15:59
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jonwilthere are definitely x86 closed bins in hildon-control-panel but with * out of action, I cant get at the binaries in question16:02
freemangordonjonwil: hmm, those should be in SB16:02
jonwilmaybe I should forget the whole thing and go back to watching my whole-series box set of "The West Wing" :)16:03
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: do you think you can drum up the rest of "maemo management" (niel, MT, Ivan, the HiFo) to finally join for disaster management permanent meeting on IRC?16:05
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qwazixDocScrutinizer05, later today I can (3-4h from now)16:17
DocScrutinizer05good, i have to manage some private pressing affairs, we should meet in #maemo-meeting16:18
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: ^^^16:18
DocScrutinizer05and permanent until disaster managed16:19
vi____can you reverse me some moar rams?16:24
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jonwilbah, its too hot and humid here to do anything that requires actual thinking :)17:13
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jonwilat least my Gentoo emerge pass finally finished emerging gcc :)17:15
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thedead1440  <--- temp mirror with all repos till normal service is resumed17:26
RST38hDoc: Hey, Doc, how do I upgrade to a new CSSU nowadays? Nokia's repository appears to be permanently down17:34
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PaliRST38h, CSSU repos are mirrored here:
PaliRST38h, this is semi official mirror which is here for months17:44
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Ex-Opesathedead1440: The site is up, but fremantle's extras, etc are 404?17:55
Ex-Opesathedead1440: Whole seems to be 40417:56
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thedead1440Ex-Opesa: did you add it to your phone?17:56
thedead1440Directory browsing i disabled hence 40417:56
infobotthedead1440 meant: Disrectory browsing i disabled hence 40417:56
thedead1440damn: I meant directory browsing is disabled; add it to your sources.list or whatever on device and it'll work17:57
Ex-Opesathedead1440: No, I didn't sorry. Normally repos are not restricted as such. Sorry! Thank you! I can finally install the apps, reflashed the mob yesterday actually.17:57
thedead1440Ex-Opesa: its not only me; brkn and DocScrutinizer05 are the main architects of it :)17:58
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DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: thanks for IP spreading ^^^18:00
DocScrutinizer05FUCK >:-(18:00
Ex-Opesathedead1440: Right. Thanks to all of you ^18:00
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05: i posted the link to the post; he was fast hence he got the IP; not me :(18:01
DocScrutinizer05anyway now it's in chanlog thus in spiders of anybody18:01
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Ex-OpesaOkay...Sorry, shouldn't have posted here. Its static and home server? ^18:02
thedead1440nah its Hetzner's server18:02
thedead1440but static yes18:03
Lava_CroftI want to express my symtpathy for the people dealing with this bullshit and making sure us users don't suffer too much18:03
Lava_Croftin other words, thanks18:03
RST38hPali: understood18:04
Ex-OpesaYes, thanks!18:04
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lundeanyone knows where we can upload files of 500 mb size18:10
lundethere is a guy on maemo who wnats to do so I am helping him because the file contains some data which might be useful for cssu devs18:12
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Ex-Opesalunde: perhaps18:14
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lundethank you everyone18:19
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Ex-OpesaI am tired of this error: ""W: Failed to fetch <insert long URL of  <fremantle extras repos> Hash Sum mismatch"". I tried to rm -rf /opt/fapman-cache/lists and created partial folder, etc. Still the error persists.18:50
Ex-OpesaIt starts with "W", meaning warning, should I just ignore it?18:50
freemangordonEx-Opesa: repos are down, be patient18:50
RST38hhow patient?18:51
Ex-Opesafreemangordon: I am using the temporary repos by thedead1440, Doc and brkn. (thanks to them)18:51
freemangordonRST38h: is it me supposed to answer?18:51
freemangordonlast I know (from ~ 1 hour ago) is that nemein is trying to find what's wrong in their and/or their ISP network18:52
freemangordonseems like the traffic shaping is misconfigured, I hope they wiil find the problem soon18:53
kerioEx-Opesa: also18:58
infobothmm... fapman is Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever18:58
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amospallawhich problems are known about fapman?18:59
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amospallaI only use it19:00
Ex-Opesakerio: O_o. Really? I have been using it for more then a year, it never caused me an issue. Can you help me with this "Hash mismatch issue"?19:02
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kerioit's probably just some repo weirdness19:07
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qwazixDocScrutinizer05, do you still need me to try and gather everybody?20:08
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qwazixI think it's better to not start spamming the channel with discussions.20:10
* qwazix wonders if DocScrutinizer had an accident while playing with the MTHEL's, and everybody is now dead20:16
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DocScrutinizer51qwazix: I think we should still try to let council.* know20:20
DocScrutinizer51in the end it's not juist me being responsible for infra being up and running20:20
GeneralAntillesYou touched it last.20:21
GeneralAntillesIt's yours now.20:21
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qwazixDocScrutinizer51, ok, will fire up mail client in a while20:37
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dafoxHi all. Is there something wrong with the repositories or is it just me? I keep getting 'unable to connect' for a few for the past few days...21:22
keriodafox: /topic21:22
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keriodafox: it's not quite down, but it's still unusuable21:22
keriobut it's not the past few days, it's just today21:23
kerioand maybe a bit yesterday21:23
dafoxmm, I've had it since sunday I think21:23
dafoxsunday evening that is, so depending on timezone that may be yesterday....21:23
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dafoxanyway, you may want to move that bit of info to the front of the topic, and/or make it more pronounced, as I've completely missed it...21:25
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freemangordonanyone python here?21:25
kerioi python a bit21:26
kerioi'm not any good at GUI toolkits though21:26
freemangordon dep_mtime = max(os.path.getmtime(p) for p in deps)21:26
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freemangordonSyntaxError: invalid syntax21:26
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freemangordonand points to for21:26
keriotry max((os.path.getmtime(p) for p in deps))21:26
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keriothe actual generator expression is (os.path.getmtime(p) for p in deps), the special case for when it's the only argument to a function was added in a certain version21:27
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freemangordonmakes no difference21:27
keriothen it's something on the line before :)21:27
freemangordonok, thanks21:28
keriowhat was it? i wonder why it was put on "for" instead of before21:28
freemangordonkerio: it is 2.7 script, I am trying to run it on 2.521:28
kerioooh, nasty21:28
kerioespecially because 2.7 backports a lot of neat stuff from py3k21:29
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freemangordonkerio: I had to replace sone @property things with 2.5 get_ syntax, I am not sure I did it right21:30
keriohm, why?21:30
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keriodecorators are in 2.5, you're only missing property.setter and property.deleter21:31
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freemangordonkerio: because i've never, ever, written a line of code in python :D21:32
keriothose "thing = property(get_thing)" are misintendet21:32
keriobut really, @property should work, and if it doesn't work, just overwrite the same name21:32
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freemangordonI have sysntax error for @property21:33
freemangordonkerio: where should I move those21:33
freemangordonby looking here it is ok21:34
kerioyou don't need setters, right?21:34
freemangordon(aiui :D )21:35
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keriofreemangordon: one sec21:36
keriowhat i wrote is **exactly** what @property would do21:37
freemangordoni've tried that, gave me syntax error. but i'll try it again21:37
kerioas in, the same down to the bytecode21:37
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freemangordonstill, the same erroro :(21:39
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keriowhich error?21:39
kerioalso, what's your python version?21:39
freemangordonsyntax error for "for"21:39
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keriocan i get a snippet?21:40
freemangordonjust a second to install pastebinit21:41
keriodoesn't work i think21:42 changed its API21:42
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qwazixWoody14619, hi!21:43
Woody14619howdy. :)21:43
freemangordonthe error is on line 7821:43
qwazixWoody14619, we're in a bit of a mess as you've seen.21:44
freemangordonkerio: oh, fuck21:45
Woody14619Yeah.   But then I never expected things to transition smoothly, so I'm not surprised. :)21:45
freemangordonkerio: see line 4521:45
keriothat's not the error21:45
freemangordonproprty ;)21:46
qwazixIn fact it's good that things are moving. Even at this rate.21:46
keriothat's not a syntax error21:46
keriooh god, this uses print_function21:46
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freemangordoni mistyped property21:46
kerioyeah, but that's not the error21:46
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freemangordonyes, but manifest_path is used for deps21:47
keriopython doesn't work that way21:47
* Woody14619 nods.21:47
keriosyntax errors happen before the rest21:47
kerioand i'm not getting any syntax error with any "for"s21:47
freemangordonI see21:47
freemangordonwich python21:48
freemangordonwhich python21:48
kerioPython 2.5.4 (r254:67916, May 17 2010, 21:00:32)21:48
kerio2.5.2-3maemo4 from extras-devel21:48
keriothe syntax error i'm getting is on line 18221:48
keriobecause print is not a function in 2.5, and can never be21:49
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kerioyou have to use the fucking chevron print statement21:49
freemangordonkerio: any chance to make that work with 2.5?21:49
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kerioone sec21:49
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*** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to " is down - see || Welcome to #maemo | N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | | Source: | Chanlog: | #maemo-ssu is where the (few) devels and maintainers of the maemo-future meet"21:50
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freemangordonkerio: oh, shit: Python 2.3.421:53
freemangordon"/usr/bin/python -V"21:53
kerioalso, this is your own n900, right?21:53
freemangordonthis is scratchbox21:53
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kerioWe're happy to announce the release of Python 2.3.4 (final) on May 27th, 2004.21:54
tadzikPerl on N900 is equally tragic21:55
freemangordon"/usr/bin/python2.5 -V: gives me Python 2.5.421:55
kerioi'm not going to help you run a script written for the latest python2 on a python version from when i was 1221:55
freemangordonso I have it, it just does not run the correct binary21:55
kerioso change the shebang21:55
freemangordonkerio: sure21:55
kerioand of course you were getting errors21:57
keriopython2.3 has definetely no decorators and no genexprs21:57
kerioi'm not even sure it has list comprehensions21:57
keriothis runs on python2.5 on the n90021:57
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freemangordonthough i don;t get it, /usr/bin/python is symlinked to /usr/bin/python2.521:57
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keriooh god i don't want to begin imagining what something like scratchbox does to your path21:58
freemangordonkerio: well, i guess SB has screwed it, thanks anyway, i'll try to fix it21:58
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freemangordonchecking for python... /scratchbox/tools/bin/python22:00
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keriofreemangordon: hm, am i a bad enough dude to upgrade to debian sid on my home server?22:10
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freemangordonkerio: BTW python script runs :)22:13
freemangordonyep, I passed PYTHON= at command line :D22:14
qwazixfreemangordon, have you seen the thread on tmo with the old harmattan proto?22:15
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freemangordonqwazix: yep22:15
qwazixgot the tarball? I suspect there may be interesting things in there regarding the N90022:15
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qwazixthat thing looks much closer to Maemo 522:16
freemangordonno, I don't have it22:16
qwazixpm that guy, he just uploaded the root and has given it out to select people via PM22:16
freemangordonyep, saw that. but I am on a different thing right now :)22:17
keriofreemangordon: huh, 60 packages to update22:17
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qwazixOk, just thought that if somebody should have that it's cssu people.22:17
freemangordonqwazix: sure22:18
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freemangordonyay, ipclite is building :D22:22
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freemangordonthe fuck, it takes ages :(22:42
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qwazixNokia hostility towards maemo reached new heights. User banned from Nokia Support Discussions for linking to tmo?
freemangordonwell, that's not exactly new :)22:53
AoyagiNo wonder, with that name...22:53
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kerioELO Phat ER 6922:55
qwazixhaha, didn't know that was the username...22:55
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keriofree mango r don22:56
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freemangordonkerio: help , line 206, syntax error on "open"23:00
freemangordonno more free mango for you :P23:01
kerioadd a "from __future__ import with_statement" before the first import23:01
keriopython is cool like that23:02
kerioit lets you import shit from the future23:02
freemangordonhuh, cool?23:02
kerioi lied, it's not actually from the future23:02
freemangordonthanks god I have to deal with C/++ and ASM :D:D:D23:03
freemangordonthis thing is UGLY23:03
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freemangordonhow is that possible identation to mark a block?!? this is crazy23:04
qwazixfreemangordon, nothing is ugly if you get used to javascript :)23:04
keriohow is that possible, braces to mark a block?!? this is crazy23:04
keriofreemangordon: from __future__ import braces23:05
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freemangordonqwazix: actually javascript is almost like C (syntax-wise)23:05
keriotry it in the interactive interpreter23:05
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freemangordon"SyntaxError: from __future__ imports must occur at the beginning of the file"23:06
kerioin the interactive interpreter i said23:06
freemangordonthe fuck?!? it is at the begining23:06
qwazixfreemangordon, it is but because of the extensive use of callbacks and inline functions and json and prototyping it tends to get ugly real quick23:06
keriofreemangordon: have you put it *before* the "import math"?23:06
freemangordonwhy should I?23:06
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keriowell then it's not at the beginning, is it23:07
kerioyou did a whole thing before it23:07
keriocreated an object23:07
freemangordonat the begining there are comments and a newline23:07
kerioafter the comments23:07
keriobefore "import math"23:07
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freemangordonthis is a no-brainer :D23:07
kerioanyway, try "from __future__ import braces" in the interactive interpreter23:08
qwazix{foo: bar = function(baz){ something(function(goo){ return zoo }); } }23:08
qwazix^^^ ugly enough?23:08
freemangordonqwazix: but it is in braces :P23:08
qwazixyeah, at least I could write that in one line23:09
freemangordonso it does not matter how many spaces/tabs/CR you'll have23:09
keriowhat's the "foo:" supposed to be?23:09
qwazixIn python they gave up and they support only single line lambdas :)23:09
keriosingle *expression* lambdas23:09
freemangordonkerio: I guess a typo23:09
* freemangordon is not aware if jscript has labels23:10
kerio{"foo": lambda baz: something(lambda goo: zoo)}23:10
kerioer, well23:10
kerio{"foo": (lambda baz: something(lambda goo: zoo))}23:10
qwazixIt has labels23:11
qwazixthe whole thing inside outer braces is an object23:11
keriomy whole thing inside braces is a dict23:11
freemangordonI think (now when I am an expert :D) that python is almost as ugly as prolog23:12
keriofreemangordon: no srsly, fu23:12
qwazixbar = {tee: "something", foo: function(baz){ something(function(goo){ return zoo }); } }23:13
qwazixnow it's correct23:13
freemangordonbut at least the"future" is now compiling :D23:13
qwazixpreviously the "bar =" thingie was wrong23:13
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freemangordonkerio: will that "future with" be compatible with 2.6 and above?23:14
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freemangordon__future__ is for future versions?23:15
kerio"from __future__ import foo" is a particular statement that's not actually an import23:15
kerioit enables or disables stuff in the parser23:16
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kerioit's for changes in the syntax23:16
freemangordonhmm, too complicated for me :)23:16
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qwazixthe thing I can't understand in python is why have arrays, lists and dicts as a different entity23:27
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qwazixcouldn't it be one thing altogether and store whatever you like in it?23:27
tadziker, how on earth do you expect array to be equal to hashtables?23:27
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tadzik(or whatever they are under the hood)23:28
tadzikdifferent things should be different23:28
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qwazixwhy not? in php it works like a charm23:28
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tadziksorry, but "php" and "works like a charm" just doesn't sound ok for me23:28
tadzikbut otoh, lua lives with that iirc23:28
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tadzikand I still thing it's not too good23:29
qwazixI don't have any special love for php but I've used it enough and the fact that arrays = hashtables has never caused a problem23:29
kerioqwazix: because arrays aren't in python, lists are vectors, and dicts are hashtables23:29
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tadzikfrom performance to educational reasons23:29
keriofor fuck's sake how can they be the same thing23:29
kerio(no, we don't talk about the array module)23:29
tadzikI've seen python programmers for whom the main difference between an array and a hash was that you index array by int and a hash by string23:30
qwazixkerio: "import array"23:30
kerioi just said we don't talk about the array module23:30
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qwazixyeah, just seen that sry23:30
kerioalso, if you want a good array implementation, install numpy23:30
qwazixyep, that's what I'm using23:30
qwazixtrying to port an old script of mine from matlab23:31
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qwazixxes, DocScrutinizer05, want to chat about sysop?23:32
DocScrutinizer05sorry, not today23:32
PaliWTF is ??23:33
DocScrutinizer05or just a minute23:33
xeswhy not...23:33
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DocScrutinizer05xes: I'm terribly annoyed by today's downtime/fsckup of *.maemo.org23:33
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DocScrutinizer05xes: what could you do for maemo admin?23:34
DocScrutinizer05or rather, what are you qualified to do, and what are you ready and willing to do?23:35
xesDocScrutinizer05: today i asked qwazix about the request for a sysop... i would understand exactly what you are searching for..23:35
DocScrutinizer05xes: we got two beefy irons, with like 16 VM on them, and we need somebody for the "housekeeping" at very least23:36
qwazixDon't really got them yet,23:37
qwazixbut we will pretty soon23:37
DocScrutinizer05yeah, eventually we will23:37
xesusually i build systems over blade centers with xen server 4.1 and iscsi storage23:37
DocScrutinizer05that sounds kinda... just what we're looking for23:37
xesfor sure it is import to evaluate the weight...23:38
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xes...the virtualization system you would choose may change the hw requirements23:39
DocScrutinizer05nothing decided yet23:39
DocScrutinizer05we'll get the disk images probably23:39
DocScrutinizer05of the VM23:39
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, may I share the infrastructureforHildonFoundation.pdf23:40
DocScrutinizer05it's already public23:40
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xesand concerning the storage? qwazix talked about 4tb... organized in?23:40
qwazix(I was just worrying about that hidden path in the link)23:40
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: was too lazy to move it out of there23:41
qwazixxes, let me tell you the story from the beginning23:41
qwazixNokia's idea was to buy us two boxen for the autobuilders23:41
DocScrutinizer05xes: Nemein informed us that it will kinda be similar to the lean design in that pdf23:41
xesubuntu vm?23:41
qwazixand have the rest of them (wiki, tmo, midgard, garage etc) hosted somewhere else23:42
DocScrutinizer05I Aint No Sysop23:42
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qwazixBut there's no way that we can afford both CoLo and VM hosting23:43
qwazixand as Nokia isn't willing to trade the boxen for money or even hosting23:43
DocScrutinizer05we can't afford managed hosting of 12 or 18 xen-VM plus Colo and maintenance for that iron23:43
qwazixWe're left with trying to fit everything on the iron23:43
qwazixso the initial configuration was huge ram and low disk for the iron23:44
DocScrutinizer05(fit on iron) for a start at least23:44
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qwazixWe could chip in to increase the disk or trade ram for disk23:44
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xes..ok... first of all, you should start from money to spend for hardware23:44
DocScrutinizer05we probably don't want to trade any of the RAM23:44
qwazixBudget for purchase of hardware is 7000eur from Nokia23:45
DocScrutinizer05xes: the hardware virtually already exists, we can just change minor specs on it23:45
qwazixAnd we could possibly add some change to that from HiFo funds23:45
xesok... but vitually is good word for a vm but not for what we have.. :)23:45
xes..or not..23:46
qwazixAlso we need to minimize rack space.23:46
xesthe first good choice is put the money in the right things23:46
DocScrutinizer05xes: the plan is: Nemein buys that iron, moves stuff there, donates it to community, and we get rid of it again as soon as possible23:46
qwazixwe REALLY need to minimize rackspace23:47
DocScrutinizer05xes: ...and move to dedi servers from e.g Hetzner23:47
xesDocScrutinizer05: ok23:47
DocScrutinizer05we can't pay or maintain CoLo23:47
xes..the link to the pdf is just a future plan? And the actual situation?23:48
DocScrutinizer05and if any of those blades emits blue magic smoke, we're out of business permanently23:48
qwazixthe actual situation is that the VM's are hosted in nemeins xen grid23:49
DocScrutinizer05the actual situation is: Nemein moved everything to xen-grid VM23:49
DocScrutinizer05until the iron is set up23:49
DocScrutinizer05Nokia paid for "hosting" til end of Feb23:49
keriocan't we... keep it there?23:49
xes...xen-grid = good news.. :)23:50
qwazixkerio, the number floating around is 250eur/mo/vm23:50
DocScrutinizer05then we're in for at least 200EUR/iron-month, for bare rackspace (+traffic and electricity?)23:50
qwazixand we have 12 of them23:50
keriowait, *for each vm*?23:50
qwazix(maybe more if we include scratchbox)23:50
keriowhat are these vm made of, diamond bits?23:50
qwazixkerio, virtual diamond bits23:51
kerioqwazix: those are called bitcoins23:51
kerioDocScrutinizer05: is that the general price, or the price they're giving us?23:52
qwazixIt's an "estimated cost"23:52
DocScrutinizer05btw 250/month is what Hetzer calls for a managed LAMP VM, we need managed root VM23:52
xes..i need to read with attention the pdf... and again this chat23:53
DocScrutinizer05might as well be 10 times as much for those23:53
DocScrutinizer05no, we got no quote from Nemein yet23:53
keriooh, managed?23:53
kerioas in, they also give us a sysop?23:53
DocScrutinizer05and I don't think we want any23:53
DocScrutinizer05kerio: those are xen-grid engines, they hardly drop them on our feet unmanaged23:54
DocScrutinizer05and we hardly get access to the xen management console23:55
xesbut... do you think that this kind of information could stay logged here?23:55
DocScrutinizer05so aiui yes, this is an offer only available incl sysop23:55
DocScrutinizer05xes: sorry?23:55
qwazixIt's not that we've given out root passwords so why not?23:56
qwazixIf you skim over friday 18.00 utc meetings over on #maemo-meeting logs you'll find more info23:56
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: thanks23:57
DocScrutinizer05also the Friday before23:57
xesok.. i think i have a lot to read..23:58
DocScrutinizer05and if you read today's log of smae chan, you'll find updates to current fsckup23:58
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, there was another document in google docs that xes might find useful, got it handy?23:59
DocScrutinizer05th eIP stuff?23:59
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qwazixyep I think that was it23:59
DocScrutinizer05on cloud7 in migration-project23:59
infobothmm... interim-dns is " and"23:59

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