IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2013-01-08

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StyXmankerio: yes, marble just uses the routing, and it uses tiles which can work both offline :)01:00
StyXman22:44 < cehteh> well i look into generating my own maps01:01
StyXmancehteh: vector or tiles?01:01
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StyXmanI'm playing with tiles01:02
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cehtehStyXman: vector of course .. much better rendering and less diskspace01:16
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M4rtinKcehteh: and you can also render different styles from the same dataset :)01:19
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M4rtinKStyXman: this is a format for bulk tile storage supported by modRana:
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cehtehwell the monav vector renderer is very minimalistic01:21
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M4rtinKstoring tiles in a sigle file/db results in huge space saving or else each tile image would occupy at least 64 kB on the FAT32 FS in MyDocs01:22
cehtehM4rtinK: have you investigated the cloudgps rendering .. tiles so far, but it uses opengles if someone is eager it should be doable to render vector maps there .. in a very smooth way01:23
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M4rtinKcehteh: it's using SDL  & OpenGL ES01:26
M4rtinKother than that it's tile based like modRana01:26
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cehtehbut a vector renderer in opengles should be 'relative' simple, schouldnt it?01:27
M4rtinK(it also uses the same maps folder as modRana, so you can share map tiles with it if you don't use sqlite for tile storage)01:27
M4rtinKno idea01:27
M4rtinKI've never actually worked with OpenGL01:28
cehtehon the other hand .. i am wondering if one could render tiles on the device into some cache (sqlite) which expire when not used01:28
cehtehbut tiles never look pretty when rotated01:28
M4rtinKa good realtime renderer handles even rotation01:29
M4rtinKso that you don't get upside down names, etc.01:29
cehtehyes but you cant cache that very well :)01:29
cehtehor you need some text overlay01:30
M4rtinKbut even  a simple tile renderer would be a huge improvement IMO01:30
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M4rtinKbut Navit & Nokia maps do that IIRC01:30
cehtehrotating only every 22,5°, not fractions could help a bit .. but prolly not worth the efforts01:31
M4rtinKyeah, that would be another possibility01:31
M4rtinKa cached background01:31
M4rtinKand a dynamic overlay01:31
M4rtinKnope, you wan't fluent rotation, so that it can follow the direction of your travel01:31
cehtehcache background at fixed angles .. and then only a quarter of them .. rotating by 180 and 90° is easy to do without loss01:32
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cehtehand then either render overlay text dynamically or create overlay tiles with texts which are more agressively expired01:32
DocScrutinizer05meh, rander from next better resultion via downsampling, looks pretty at any degree of rotation01:33
DocScrutinizer05render even01:33
cehtehDocScrutinizer05: talking about rotation, not downsampling01:33
cehtehand different zoom levels have different levels of detail01:33
cehtehyou cant just downsample/upsample ..01:34
cehteh(for preview yes)01:34
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M4rtinKwell you need to have different LoD01:34
cehtehcartography is also some kind of art, not just dumb rendering01:34
M4rtinKor else it would die a horrible death if you ever zoom out over a big city01:35
cehtehnot only that01:35
cehtehreal paper maps even move villages slightly aside to make room for a motorway for example, that wont work well on gps accurate computer maps01:36
cehtehbut just get the idea01:36
M4rtinKbtw, once you have the vector data, you can also use it for introspection, not just rendering01:37
DocScrutinizer05sorry for the noise then01:37
M4rtinKlike checking if you are inside a residential area & issuing a speed warning01:37
cehtehif you look at germany on a lower zoom level then the 'autobahn' rendered are serveral kilometers wide for example .. but still they pass along or through villages01:37
cehtehM4rtinK: yes01:38
M4rtinKDocScrutinizer05: I think you are right, as IMHO properly implemented rotation looks quote ok01:38
M4rtinKcehteh: what vector drawing capabilities does OpenGL(ES) have ?01:39
M4rtinKeq, lines, rectangles, curves, text ?01:39
M4rtinKwell, I always though OpenGL is mostly about mapping textures to 3D objects01:40
cehtehbut isnt opengl all about that?01:40
DocScrutinizer05I'd guess poligons01:40
tadzikerm, I remember talking here to someone who claimed that Windows Phone doesn't deserve to be called a smartphone. After some experiences, I have to agree01:40
cehtehthis 3d objects are polygons .. or triangles at least01:41
cehtehyou dont need to map them you can color them in one color01:41
cehtehand you can stay in 2D of course .. only rotate for a 3D view01:41
DocScrutinizer05tadzik: lol01:41
cehtehwhile relative accurate height data for the entire world is freely available iirc01:42
tadzikthe point was that the platform is so closed that it's not even funny01:42
M4rtinKyep, SRTM & some other dataset too01:42
cehtehi will never ever touch that01:42
tadzikI just tried to create a Windows 8 application. I can compile it alright, but if I want to run it (yes, on my local machine) I have to get a developer license01:42
tadzikand no, an email address is not sufficient. Give us your phone number, bitch01:42
cehtehi have some hopes for jolla01:42
cehtehthat looks nice01:43
DocScrutinizer05then please support it01:43
cehtehgimme a note2 (or similar hardware) and sailfish please01:43
tadzikI suppose that the paperclip calls you home if you dereference a null ref somewhere01:44
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* tadzik sighs and stops whining01:44
cehtehi got my wife a note 2 w/ android .. nice hardware but android does not convince me (yes nice features, but also a lot i miss, and too much nonfree ads andcrap)01:44
DocScrutinizer05checked that samsung tablet with sylus last weekend, was quite nice, for a c-ts01:44
DocScrutinizer05stylus even01:44
cehtehand imo just the right sizel .. i like it :)01:45
cehtehbut i need a useable OS01:45
DocScrutinizer05yep!! :-D01:45
cehtehand with quadcore 1.6ghz and 2GB ram you can do serious things01:45
DocScrutinizer05I almost bought one01:45
cehtehi very much like the OLED display01:45
cehtehmost awesome smartphone display i've seen so far01:46
cehtehwe should pedition that hardware and sonftware makers should be split and no company can produce both :P01:47
DocScrutinizer05only thing that stopped me been my holy oath to never ever buy anything sponatneously again, without prior recherche in internet01:47
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M4rtinKI'm seeing a lot of devices with wacom digitizers lately01:47
cehtehyes dont do .. unless you find some usable OS .. as maemo user andoid will piss you in some way01:48
M4rtinKdid their patents finally expire or did they just wen't less insane concerning licencing ?01:48
cehtehits mighty and countless more features .. but nagware, viruses, strange multitasking ..01:48
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DocScrutinizer05cehteh: you're aware this would directly and inevitably lead to closed software?01:49
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M4rtinKan affordable decently sized LCD drawing tablet would be be nice :)01:49
cehtehDocScrutinizer05: not if harware is sold bare and one can pick on your own01:49
DocScrutinizer05well, hardware *is* sold bare, you only need to wipe it01:50
cehtehDocScrutinizer05: there is a GCC compiler and binutils thing in the android store and i installed it on my wifes phone just to check it out01:50
cehtehhey .. and it comes with GUI showing you ads ...01:50
cehtehreally .. wtf ...01:50
DocScrutinizer05my point is that hw manufs need to provide board support packages which is already software01:50
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cehtehwrong button01:51
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DocScrutinizer05bare hardware is basically useless01:52
DocScrutinizer05even for highly qualified system sw devels01:52
DocScrutinizer05since it's the EE crew to provide the basic specs to develop drivers in *sw*01:53
DocScrutinizer05usually they even provide such drivers01:53
cehtehwell if someone wants to sell his bare hardware he needs to provide the docs/info about how to implement drivers for it .. or even (the better) agree on open standards and open drivers/interfaces01:53
DocScrutinizer05that's a sw dude's view of the world01:54
DocScrutinizer05chip manufs don't give a sh*t about it01:54
cehtehwell my pedition demand was rather comical .. i know that has no chance01:54
cehtehwell only because the market is as it is01:55
cehteheven chip manucaturers want to sell their crap01:55
cehtehand if they only can do so if they work openly enouhg they would01:55
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DocScrutinizer05because the world is as it is, there'll always be some chip baker that comes up with a new awesome hw interface for whiich no standard is available01:55
DocScrutinizer05that's called technical progress01:56
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DocScrutinizer05ince there been uart, then came i2c, then ULPI, then HSI01:57
DocScrutinizer05same for LCD interface or any other stuff01:57
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cehtehwould be nice if you could connect the laptop screen from my old laptop to my rpi ... woudlnt it? .. grr01:58
DocScrutinizer05and nobody knows what awesome new acme hf interfaces we'll have to deal with tomorrow01:58
DocScrutinizer05inter-chip optical fibre is just around the corner01:59
DocScrutinizer05with your concept we still would use ISA-cards in our PCs02:00
M4rtinKI think it illustrates how important open source is02:01
cehtehnot sure, but i cant proof the opposite :P02:01
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M4rtinKif you have the source for the drivers, you can better adapt to the interfaces changing02:01
M4rtinKboth hw and sw ones02:02
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: open source starts with manufs documenting their hw, yes02:02
DocScrutinizer05but then there are cases where significan parts of the manuf's IP are in a closed source driver running on AP02:03
DocScrutinizer05see WLAN drivers02:03
M4rtinKor the RPi GPU02:03
DocScrutinizer05commonly known as softMAC02:03
M4rtinKor the GTA02 modem02:04
DocScrutinizer05GTA02 modem has absolutely zero AP based drivers02:04
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DocScrutinizer05it has a UART interface basically02:04
M4rtinKI thought its an independent system with its own arm processor02:04
DocScrutinizer05that talks AT02:04
M4rtinKcommunicating with the rest with AT commands02:05
DocScrutinizer05yes, like any hardMAC WLAN chip02:05
DocScrutinizer05nothing needed in application processor land to run it02:05
DocScrutinizer05pretty nice for FOSS02:05
DocScrutinizer05expensive for manufacturers02:06
M4rtinKas long there are no bugs in it :)02:06
DocScrutinizer05well, that's no new story, your HDD do this since uhm 30 years or so02:07
DocScrutinizer05I never heard of anybody demanding you should be able to control the head positioner motor and spindle drive in HDD from AP02:08
M4rtinKI think that the RPi GPU that basically speaks Open GL is a bit innovative in this regard :)02:08
DocScrutinizer05not even RMS asks for HDD firmware to be opensource, afaik02:12
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M4rtinKyeah, you have to draw the line somewhere02:15
DocScrutinizer05for FOSS the line is clearly where AP starts to excute code02:16
DocScrutinizer05you can handle data of whatever kind you like, even if it's a firmware to upload to your WLAN or BT chip, it never gets *executed* by AP02:17
DocScrutinizer05as soon as my FOSS-OS CPU excutes a byte of instruction from a closed source, I'm starting to feel unhappy02:17
DocScrutinizer05since that's the moment when I lose control02:18
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DocScrutinizer05you may go sophistic and distinguis in what RING this instruction gets executed, if it's sandboxed or has full RING-0 DOM-0 control02:20
DocScrutinizer05you might argue a tained DOM-U instance e.g running windows in a VM doesn't instantly taint your DOM-0 host that runs the VM02:22
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DocScrutinizer05you also could argue that a device driver running under user permissions doesn't taint the whole system since it has no root access02:24
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DocScrutinizer05it's a fun topic after the 3rd beer at night, in your fav hacker pub02:25
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grummundheh. my n900 arrived :)02:44
grummundtypin on it now02:44
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M4rtinKgrummund: congratulations ! :)02:48
grummundcant believe it rooted so quickly and installed ssh client so i can get to my server02:53
grummundso much to explore and so little batt remaining02:54
grummundsee yas later o/02:55
M4rtinKsee ya :)02:57
RiDfix microusb before it f+cks up02:58
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RiDtrust me i was a careful user....ended up breaking it after 2,5 years02:59
RiDalso a jackass threw cookies to my phone02:59
DocScrutinizer05yeah shit happens, no matter how careful you act02:59
RiDthose smuggled fine salt. they're on the keyboard now02:59
RiDi see the friggin dots shining03:00
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DocScrutinizer05wipe it with a damp cloth03:02
RiDehh, the dots are under the keys03:03
RiDi removed most of it though03:03
RiDit was hella horrific back then03:03
DocScrutinizer05disassemble it03:03
RiDnot going to do that soon either03:04
DocScrutinizer05you just need to unscrew the two TX603:04
RiDits been disassembled quite a few times that the screws...are getting screwed03:04
RiDon the plastic back03:04
DocScrutinizer05then lift off the frame, then the keymat03:04
RiDso i plan on disassembling it only one more time, fixing usb, speaker, earphone and cleaning it03:05
DocScrutinizer05rather get new screws ;-)03:05
RiDi think its the plastic that is ruined lol03:05
DocScrutinizer05which plastic?03:05
robbiethe1stChina sells replacement cases cheaply on Ebay03:06
robbiethe1stGood old knock-offs03:06
RiDdoc, remove back cover. these screws that appear.03:06
DocScrutinizer05robbiethe1st: you're any kind of sysop, by any means?03:06
DocScrutinizer05RiD: those are all steel screws03:07
RiDbut the stuff around them isn't03:07
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DocScrutinizer05hmm, the stuff around them, that would be the case body. Can't see how it suffers from unscrewing the screws03:09
DocScrutinizer05the stuff they sit in also is plastic for the kbd frame TX6, steel for the 4 phillips screws that hold the slider mechanism03:10
RiDahhh the slider mechanism03:10
RiDthe ribbon cable was almost cut off03:10
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RiDi exxagerated. it had little sand things around it but the cable was tough03:11
RiDnot good to see anyways03:12
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jonwilI think I may have just seen the coolest device ever to run the Linux kernel...03:46
RiDwashing machine?03:47
DocScrutinizer05wrist watch03:48
jonwilno, watches aren't cool :P03:48
jonwilARM9 300MHz, 16MB of Flash, 64MB of RAM, MicroSD slot, USB 2.0, Bluetooth, possibly WiFi depending on which news story is accurate.03:48
DocScrutinizer05google glass then?03:48
jonwilOh and this is a LEGO bring03:48
jonwilSo its a LEGO brick with all that inside03:48
RiDoh wait03:49
RiDlego technic or w/e?03:49
jonwilMindstorms yes03:49
jonwilits the new one03:49
jonwiland its running Linux03:49
RiDthe old one was mindblowing enough03:49
RiDsoon we'll have a lego smartphone03:49
* DocScrutinizer05 once had that "tank" in that alu suitcase03:50
jonwilwell LEGO says this new brick can be controlled via Android or iOS03:50
RiDtoo bad the only "motorized" legos i have is an rc car03:50
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jonwilAlthough I am sure if someone with a N900 buys one, there is no reason you couldn't make the 2 talk to each other :P03:51
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jonwilNot that I have the cash to buy one...03:51
RiDhow much?03:52
RiDi'll pretend i did not read that03:52
DocScrutinizer05aaah LEGO Cybermaster03:52
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jonwilthat gets you the programmable brick, software, sensors, motors and a whole bunch of parts03:52
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RiDwith that money i could buy a house03:53
RiDwell it wont take long until they do all sorts of crazy stuff with them03:53
jonwilI dont even want to THINK about how much the thing will cost in Australia (where prices are usually a fair bit higher than the US)03:54
RiDsend it through fax03:54
RiDand you ended up thinking how much the thing will cost when you said you didnt even want to think. Now have a good night/day, I'm going03:56
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DocScrutinizer05anyway it gives "I bricked it" a whole new meaning ;-P03:58
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jonwilwell that was a waste of time.04:41
jonwilLooks like all the ofono work to support the N900 modem was done with the express goal of making it as hard as possible to understand the actual low-level ISI packets and interface involved :(04:42
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uncloudedis there no documentation at all for ISI?05:19
jonwilno documentation anywhere for the stuff I am interested in05:22
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SpeedEviljonwil: I've said in the past that the whole infrastructure was designed to be as confusing and hard to piecemeal replace as possible. :'(05:31
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jonwilI think when it came to MeeGo-on-N900 they said "We want to do the bare minimum required to support telephony in MeeGo-on-N900 and we want to give away as little of the modem secrets as we can"05:33
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uncloudedwho benefits from ISI being kept secret still?  did Nokia specify it or the modem from elsewhere?05:35
DocScrutinizer05ISI is all but secret, it's just a PITA to study the docs formerly to be found on Wirelss Modem API05:39
DocScrutinizer05another of those orphaned servers Nokia pays for but forgot about them and now they're bitrotting and in a zombie state05:40
DocScrutinizer05google for "Wireless Modem API G2 V2"05:43
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DocScrutinizer05well, googling seems doesn't help much, you might want to try your luck in
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NitaChanDoes anyone in here still use a Nokia N900? I'm wondering if Easy Debian can use the DSP, camera and microphone or not.06:00
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uncloudedthanks for the link DocScrutinizer06:11
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DocScrutinizer05don't post the full URL anywhere, when spiders come crawling I'll remove that file06:13
uncloudedyes, I realised since you didn't post the full link :)06:13
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jonwilI actually HAVE "Wireless Modem API G2 V2" and it doesn't contain the information I need (the information on the SIM access)06:15
jonwilin fact, heck, I have copies of several versions of those docs and none contain the info I seek :(06:16
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, I think it's not comprehensive/complete06:17
DocScrutinizer05maybe even ISI is incomplete06:17
DocScrutinizer05(the implementation inside BB5)06:17
jonwilAll that is public about the SIM access is a file pn_sim_isi.h from the cellmo-headers package (with NO documentation anywhere) plus the few bits of ofono code that deal with the SIM access06:18
DocScrutinizer05I wonder WTF ofono guys got the details from06:19
jonwilwell the checkins to ofono that related to the bit I care about are from @nokia people06:19
jonwilso the Nokia guys had access to the modem specs and stuff internally (including presumably the source to the Fremantle Cellular Services Daemon) and got to use that info and code to produce the ofono N900 modem support06:20
jonwilpresumably with the goal being to reveal as little info as possible06:21 usual06:21
jonwilbtw the only reference to pn_sim_isi.h in Google is in a file listing of a Nokia QT SDK that contains that file06:21
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jonwilso unless some info appears out of the woodwork somewhere or someone at Nokia is willing to share, the chances that I will ever truly understand connui_cell_sim_get_service_provider/connui_cell_sim_is_network_in_service_provider_info or the underlying dbus and ISI calls that those functions end up calling to is pretty much zilch06:24
DocScrutinizer05lost info06:26
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DocScrutinizer05those who could share are not at Nokia anymore06:27
DocScrutinizer05pretty certainly06:27
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jonwilyeah the work was done by "Jukka Saunamäki" whoever they are06:36
jonwiland that person hasn't been active on gitorious since last january06:37
jonwilok, now I found a linkedin page that confirms they arent at Nokia anymore06:37
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jonwilso yeah unless hell freezes over and someone decides to release source for cellular services daemon (which will never happen) we will never really understand the workings of the modem interface06:39
jonwiland will never be able to replace the modem in cssu with ofono06:39
DocScrutinizer05hah, the latter is a sure bet06:41
DocScrutinizer05no matter what happens06:41
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jonwilQuite a few people have suggested "06:41
jonwilsuggested "lets replace CSD with ofono for Fremantle"06:41
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jonwilThose people who have suggested that clearly know nothing about ofono06:41
jonwilor about Fremantle06:41
DocScrutinizer05was about to type exactly this06:42
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jonwilI suspect that the internet connectivity daemon is the most likely piece of closed-source system level software to be replaced by CSSU06:49
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jonwiland yes I still have plans to continue my reverse engineering work on icd :)06:51
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jonwilunless there are other system components that are more in need of replacement than ICD in which case I will consider investigating those... :P06:55
DocScrutinizer05stskeeps was sad that ICD never gone OSS, since he considered it way better than all the OSS alternatives. So you'd probably do something really good and heroic when you RE ICD06:57
jonwilwell I wouldn't be cloning ICD, just identifying what interfaces matter when it comes to replacing it06:57
DocScrutinizer05in the end your RE work could go into nemo and sailfish06:57
jonwilso you are saying that working on ICD would be more use than working on other things?07:02
DocScrutinizer05quite probably07:02
jonwilwell I will continue reverse engineering the dbus, gconf and other interfaces exposed by ICD and its related plugins then07:06
DocScrutinizer05a proper howto on the configuration of that annoying blow was already somewhing I'd appreciate07:08
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders what's on MWKN07:10
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jonwilIf hell froze over and I could have the source code to any 10 closed N900 packages it would be connui-home-cellular, libconnui, libconnui-cellular, libgles2-sgx-img, libicd-network-wlan, libisi1, mce, opengles-sgx-img-common, osso-wlan-security and icd207:38
internetishardhow do you make it auto switch back to a real connection after switching to the MMS apn?07:39
internetishardjonwil: I think a petition to open source it could be successful07:40
internetishardWe could put some stuff about 'good PR' in there.07:41
internetishardI'll write it if you'd like07:41
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jonwilwhich thing?07:42
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* jonwil suspects internetishard doesn't understand the realities of the situation :P07:43
internetishardIndeed. And my lack of understanding could have a good outcome :)07:44
internetishardPeople who accomplish great things have to be ignorant enough to not realize they're not supposed to :P07:44
jonwilI seriously doubt Nokia will open source anything further no matter what the community does or petitions07:45
jonwilEspecially now that they are so in bed with Micro$osft :P07:45
jonwilMicro$oft :P07:45
internetishardYeah, but how would they re-use any of that in their M$ efforts?07:46
internetishardAlso, they need to lay people off probably07:46
jonwilpoint is that open sourcing stuff costs money for no benefit to Nokia07:47
jonwilhence why they wont do it07:47
jonwilbut if you want to send Nokia a useless petition or request feel free to do it...07:47
thedead1440internetishard, they rather destroy stuff than open sourcing it. see Meltemi07:47
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jonwilif we want to replace ICD we have to do it ourselves :)08:08
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Hurriannot to mention, they were probably shredding stuff since Elopocalypse08:14
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TheorboAnyone interested in the Ubuntu Phone? They are planning to release in Feb for Galaxy Nexus owners.08:42
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SpeedEvilto a degree08:43
SpeedEvilmore interested in some ways in jollamobile08:43
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thedead1440ruskie: it was lost in translation13:01
thedead1440nokia issued an update:13:01
thedead1440    “Do you rule out 100% launching a smartphone based on Android in 2013?13:01
thedead1440    Elop: So, the way I think about it is, in the current war on ecosystems, we are fighting with Windows Phone. That’s what we’re doing. Now, what we’re always doing is asking, how does that evolve? What’s next? What role does HTML5 play? What role does Android or other things play in the future? We’re looking further into the future, but it terms of what we’re bringing to...13:01, and what...13:01
thedead1440...we’re immediately focused on, we’re focused on Windows Phone.”13:01
ruskiethedead1440, that still sounds the same frankly13:03
ruskienothing really different13:03
ruskie"we're with ms for now bet we're not excluding anything in the future"13:04
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thedead1440ruskie: actually he said the same thing around a year ago13:09
thedead1440nobody made a fuss of it then13:09
thedead1440as CEO he *cannot* say I'm excluding anything13:09
thedead1440so he just says we are always open to what's in the market-place13:09
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thedead1440some more dis-heartening news for Nokia:  around $0.5billion in tax evasion13:35
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M4rtinKthat's called "going down with style" :)14:08
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Lava_CroftAs easy as the fans applaud succes, just as easy do they hate when things dont go as well16:07
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AoyagiSince northing has been happening for more than an hour and since I've noticed a certain... distaste for Android here, let me ask you this: Are there parts of it that are, in fact, hidden? As in that it's not as open as Google might want to claim?18:20
AoyagiBecause I remember reading about that on Register, but I can't find it...18:20
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SpeedEvilhidden - no18:31
SpeedEvilyou can build android from source.18:31
SpeedEvilhowever, you don't get the Google apps18:31
SpeedEvilthose are binary only18:31
AoyagiYeah, so I hear.18:32
AoyagiWell, that's better than I thought.18:32
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AoyagiThank you for clarifying that to me :)18:32
SpeedEvilthere aremseperate issues around hardware support18:32
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SpeedEvilbinary blobs are regrettably common18:32
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* MrPingu has come to say hello20:20
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* Apic greets you.20:25
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trxhm, i have connected a usb keyboard to my n90020:35
trxi have noticed that keys such as Home, End, etc dont work20:35
trxis there a solution for that somewhere?20:35
MrPinguClose the N900 keyboard ;)20:36
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MrPinguAnd select the right keyboard from the ext-kdb menu in settings, if installed ;)20:37
trxill try that thanks20:38
MrPinguHow's migration going, btw?20:39
DocScrutinizer05always a delight to hear how natural users use h-e-n20:39
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DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: well, it's hard work for council to decide on the right way to go. For now most things are already migrated to a set of (possibly interim) vservers20:40
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MrPinguI see :)20:41
* MrPingu is reading mwkn right away20:43
DocScrutinizer05first headline " migration issues"20:43
DocScrutinizer05I provided that etc/hosts file if you want to use the currently alive servers20:43
kerioMrPingu: i don't think you really need to close the n900 keyboard20:44
trxMrPingu nice, both mouse and keyboard are working great20:44
DocScrutinizer05we're about to eventually migrate tmo20:44
trxthanks for the tip20:44
kerioat least, not with a bluetooth keyboard20:44
keriotrx: extkbd and extmou are kinda great20:44
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kerioextkbd will overwrite your xkb data though20:45
kerioso you could lose your own personalizations20:45
MrPingukerio: I had to, to get it working right ;)20:45
MrPinguAtleast when using it in conjuction with dosbox and H-E-N20:45
DocScrutinizer05BTkbd might be quite different to USB-kbd20:46
MrPinguDon't have BTkdb lying around, sadly20:46
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DocScrutinizer05I got a MX5000 logitech BT kbd and BT mouse here, but I don't think it's particularly easy to make them work with *any* ordinary BT under linux20:49
kerioDocScrutinizer05: if they're HID, then it should automagically Just Work™20:50
DocScrutinizer05if they are ordinary HId at all, then crippled20:50
MrPinguAbout that, I am planning to buy Raspberry together with BT kbd + mouse +  BT-adapter20:50
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MrPinguis there something I need to watch out for specific chipsets?20:51
MrPinguTo get BT working nicely?20:51
MrPinguNow we are talking about keyboards20:51
MrPinguqt does listen to xkb, partially20:52
DocScrutinizer05BT keyboards are kinda tricky always20:52
DocScrutinizer05plug and pray20:52
MrPinguIt listens to my dead-characters I mapped on fourth level20:53
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kerioyou're doing bluetooth *wrong*20:53
MrPinguignores the rest though :(20:54
* DocScrutinizer05 glares at his BT USB dobgle and frowns20:54
* merlin1991 glares at his integrated bt chip and cries for proper drivers20:55
MrPinguYou said keyboard, but I already guessed you meant dongle20:55
* DocScrutinizer05 glares at Logitech USB "BT" dongle and frowns even more20:55
MrPinguLogitech has it own special magic20:55
merlin1991also I'd like a proper keyboard with cherry mx red switches that is not in the 150€ and up pricerange20:56
DocScrutinizer05reed, but yeah20:56
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keriomerlin1991: the singer from The Velvet Underground21:01
DocScrutinizer05The Nascom-II kbd I had in early 80s was awesome. It used small ferrite cores (like you maybe know them from ancient core memory) with two wire frames as half winding of a coil. each key had a magnet that moved away from its core when key got pressed, so removing magnetic saturation from the ferrite core/ring. The unsaturated ring transferred a sharp current spike in col wire frames to the row wireframe where it got detected by an amp21:01
DocScrutinizer05and thus sensed the row and col for a pressed key21:01
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: ooh I thought you meant reed-switches21:01
kerioDocScrutinizer05: how would it detect multiple keys?21:02
DocScrutinizer05like any other kbd21:02
DocScrutinizer05the operation priciple has implicit "n-key rollover"21:03
merlin1991I need 5 key rollover at max :D21:03
DocScrutinizer05in that it doesn't feed back from row_a via col to row_b21:03
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ShadowJKThey make awesome keyboard these days21:11
ShadowJKwith proper resistance and CLICK action21:11
ShadowJKthey come with earplugs for when you get tired of the clackity-clack21:11
DocScrutinizer05(kbd) tried to spot the schematics, but couldn't find in which of the documents it hides, so if you're interested go and have a look at
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DocScrutinizer05here's the kbd from outside:
DocScrutinizer05(been fun to assemble that PCB shown there next to kbd :-D)21:17
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DocScrutinizer05ooh, I just read it been late 70s, not early 80s21:18
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DocScrutinizer05luckily mine came without MS Basic ROM, so I had to use assembler (in hex) to do any programming. That way I learnt a bit about computers21:21
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keriohey, QBASIC was awesome21:24
Lava_Croftgwbasic was the shit when i was younger21:25
Lava_Croftcomputer class was so awesome in the early 90s, zero security21:25
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merlin1991well getting things done was #1 prority, nothing about web security and friends21:27
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DocScrutinizer05 p.5-6 is that kbd21:28
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DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez back and well! :-) \o/22:26
DocScrutinizer05"still a bit dizzy"22:26
WizardNumberNexthello guys, do you have any idea how to prevent phone application on N900 to mess with cpufreq settings?22:27
DocScrutinizer05you don't want to22:27
DocScrutinizer05phone application sets CPU freq to some value that guarantees proper audio for your calls22:28
DocScrutinizer05and only during calls22:28
WizardNumberNextbut it sets it to 125 to whatever was there22:29
DocScrutinizer05for sure not, 125 is forbidden freq22:29
DocScrutinizer05for good reason, it's instable22:29
MrPinguWizardNumberNext: it sets minimum to 125, however 125 is avoided and still 250 will be minimum22:29
WizardNumberNextI do not want anything lower then 500, as I am running on conservative instead of ondemand and down_threshold is 70, so any frequency below 500 is pointless, as 70% of 500 is higher load on 250MHz then 95% (which up threshold)22:30
WizardNumberNextand there is no avoid frequencies on conservative22:31
WizardNumberNextnever liked ondemand as it doesn't go up step by step - it is going directly to top sped22:31
DocScrutinizer05that's called speed-to-idle and a sane policy22:32
kerioWizardNumberNext: so... put 500 as the minimum22:32
WizardNumberNextyou mean the parameter for phone aplication?22:32
WizardNumberNextI do put minimum 500 or 60022:32
kerioWizardNumberNext: then your minimum will be 50022:33
DocScrutinizer05or what kerio said ^^^22:33
WizardNumberNextphone app is changing it and leaving it on 12522:33 it's not22:33
kerioit tries to22:33
keriobut 125 isn't allowed22:33
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keriomake it so that 250 isn't allowed either, if you want22:33
WizardNumberNextyou cannot prevent any frequency on conservative!22:34
WizardNumberNextI am not using ondemand - I hate this crap!22:34
DocScrutinizer05so what? ask us to make pigs fly?22:35
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MrPinguI prefer flying penguins...22:35
WizardNumberNextJust want to know, if you know how to prevent phone aplicantion to change lower frequency, not an instruction how to setup ondemand governor22:36
DocScrutinizer05answer: no we don't since that's what phone app is supposed to do22:36
WizardNumberNextas soon as I would get cross compiler working I am putting 3.8 kernel on it without ondemand governor22:37
DocScrutinizer05good luck with that22:37
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: yeah, good luck22:37
WizardNumberNextfirst I would use kexec to boot this kernel22:38
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: wanna link to 4.7.2 for scratchbox?22:38
DocScrutinizer05if it was that easy to put 3.8 on it, PK wasn't 2.6 still22:38
WizardNumberNextsee how is it behaving, then I would make pernament decission22:38
WizardNumberNext3.8 is still rc222:38
WizardNumberNextso obviously not many people are interested22:38
DocScrutinizer05yeah sure22:39
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: which SGX driver are you going to use? just out of curiosity.22:39
freemangordonDocScrutinizer51: best wishes to ivgalvez22:39
WizardNumberNextI had a good look on it and it does support most of devices, but I still would like to have et8ek for it22:39
DocScrutinizer05will do22:39
WizardNumberNextpower-kernel doesn't have any SGX driver as far as I can see22:39
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: look again22:40
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, look yourself in both configuration and kernel sources itself, then start to talk about it - quite a lot of devices have drivers22:41
kerio*something* is bound to have them22:41
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DocScrutinizer05WizardNumberNext: get your peers classified before getting offensive22:41
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: I don;t know if you are aware, but I am one of KP developers, so I am pretty aware of what is included there ;)22:42
freemangordonthat is why I told you to look again, there is SGX (aka display) driver22:42
WizardNumberNextif you are one them, then could you give me device listing please22:42
freemangordondevice listing? try lshal22:43
WizardNumberNextand if something isn't in vanilia kernel, then source of those drivers?22:43
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: what?22:43
WizardNumberNextdoes he come to irc?22:43
freemangordonKP sources are in maemo repos22:43
WizardNumberNextI mean plain patches?22:43
freemangordonon garage22:44
freemangordonsearch for kernel22:44
WizardNumberNextthats something - I would have good look there22:44
freemangordonan KP is 2.6.28 + lots of stuff in debian/patches22:44
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freemangordonso you get clean .patch files if you download tar.gz from maemo repos22:45
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: BTW lshal is not he22:45
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, ups22:46
freemangordonit is a tool to executo on your device to get a fair amount of devices22:46
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freemangordonWizardNumberNext: BTW here you will find a couple of patches which allow vanilla 3.5 to boot soick fremantle22:48
freemangordonwish you luck forward-porting them to 3.8 :)22:49
WizardNumberNextI wasn't aware they already have changed API22:49
freemangordonbetween 2.6.28 an 3.8? you can bet the did.22:50
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, where do I get ishal - I seam to not have it in my repos22:50
freemangordonyou have it on your n90022:50
WizardNumberNextbetween those - yes few times22:50
freemangordonpre-installed, run it in xterm22:51
WizardNumberNextI was thinking between 3.5 and 3.822:51
freemangordonActually I don't know how much is API changed between 3.5 and 3.822:51
freemangordonI just wished you luck ;)22:52
WizardNumberNextme neither22:52
WizardNumberNextI do not seam to have Ishal22:52
WizardNumberNextjust tried it22:52
freemangordonthat is small latin letter L22:52
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freemangordonsomething like list hardware abstraction layer :D22:52
WizardNumberNextyou mean LSHAL?22:53
freemangordonyep , but not in capital letters22:53
Palihere are some other patches for 3.5:
Paliuntested, but freemangordon patches included22:53
WizardNumberNextPali, thats usefull22:54
WizardNumberNextPali, anyway I do nt care, if those are tested or not, because I would run kernel from kexec22:54
freemangordonPali: aah, you ported BT patches? good boy :)22:54
PaliWizardNumberNext, ask more on #maemo-alternatives22:54
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: kexec does not work in 2.6.28 afaik22:54
Palithere are more peoples trying to boot new kernel22:55
keriowhy kexec? :s22:55
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I got it - got listing, looks like listing of know devices (didn't have good look on it yet)22:55
keriothere's uboot22:55
freemangordonPali: but not with fremantle on top ;)22:55
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PaliWizardNumberNext, kexec not working on n900 correctly22:56
Palithere is problem wih SDHC card reader22:56
freemangordonPali: afaik I am the only one so far successfuly booted fremantle with 3.5. except if you did that too22:56
Paliand maemo 2.6.28 kernel can kexec only new kernels (cannot kexec maemo 2.6.28 kernel...)22:56
WizardNumberNextPali, could you precise it?22:57
Palifreemangordon, I did it in qemu22:57
freemangordonhehe, qemu :P22:57
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Palinot yet on real HW...22:57
WizardNumberNextPali, qemu doesn't count22:57
freemangordonwell, so I am the man :D:D:D22:57
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: it counts22:57
PaliI created fremantle patches for meego kernel when I played with qemu...22:58
freemangordonwas it 2.6.37?22:58
PaliWizardNumberNext, there are kexec problems:
Palifreemangordon, yes22:58
WizardNumberNextI had 3.8-rc2 working on kvm on my amd phenom, but I do not consider it working success, as it didn't boot bare metal22:58
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: btw Pali upstreamed a couple of n900 patches in 3.8 ;)22:59
kerioWizardNumberNext: qemu to emulate a n90022:59
WizardNumberNextwait qemu emulating N900? That would would quite long time to implement such amount of hardfware, not to mention DSP and such stuff23:00
MrPinguDid one of you try to backport the newer SGX drivers to 2.6.28?23:00
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freemangordonMrPingu: what for?23:00
WizardNumberNextMrPingu, where to get new SGX drivers?23:00
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: meego (nemo)23:01
PaliWizardNumberNext, not everything is emulated, but it working23:01
WizardNumberNextSGX driver is one of hardest to get for me yet23:01
Paliyou need maemo MADDE23:01
Palipart of maemo MADDE is qemu n900 image with patches qemu23:01
freemangordonPali: can one attach a debugger to running qemu?23:01
WizardNumberNextthat's actually a lot more, then I would expect23:02
Palialso to kernel23:02
freemangordonyeah, that's what I was asking23:02
MrPinguFrom my googling I just did there are two parts of SGX 1: the open source modules and 2: the closed libraries23:02
Palithis is only good way how to debug kernel...23:02
freemangordonwell, i'll stick to printk's for now :P23:02
WizardNumberNextlooking on internet it seams n900 is dead as development hardware - looking here is looks like it is very much alive23:02
Paliqemu debugging is needed when printk is not enought...23:03
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: which internet do you look at?23:03
DocScrutinizer05internet lies23:03
freemangordonPali: sure, I was joking23:03
MrPinguwhere to get them, is another story23:03
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infobotwell, cssu is
freemangordonDocScrutinizer51: that one lies too ;)23:03
Palifreemangordon, do you know how hard is to force n900 kernel to panic?23:03
freemangordon*(char*) = 0?23:04
WizardNumberNextI already have CSSU - t is nice replacement for dead SSU23:04
DocScrutinizer05Pali: cat /dev/kmem23:04
PaliI wrote for panic my kernel module :D23:04
freemangordon*(char*)0 = 0?23:04
PaliI called kernel panic() function23:04
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I would not try it even on my desktop/server23:04
freemangordon^^^ should do the job :D23:04
Palion normal comuper you can crash kernel by echo 'c' to sysrq23:05
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: why not, you get oops, so what?23:05
Palibut for unknown reason that not working on n90023:05
Palikernel wrote that crashed, but nothing happened23:05
Palistill working :D23:05
freemangordonhehe, isn;t it better that way? :D23:05
kerioPali: don't you have to enable sysrq?23:05
freemangordonthat one too23:06
PaliI enabled it23:06
DocScrutinizer05Pali: try cat /dev/kmem23:06
freemangordonPali: aah, I have very good idea - undervol23:06
Paliand echo > sysrq working if is disabled too23:06
Paliand I wrote that kernel written message to dmesg that crashed :D23:06
keriofreemangordon: don't be a pussy, lock it to 115023:07
Paliso sysrq called that method23:07
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, undervolt works very well, if you want to crash - I was getting loads of crashes on 38 for 60023:07
freemangordonkerio: no, it locks then, does not opps ;)23:07
WizardNumberNextnow I am on 42 and it is rock-stable23:07
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: enable SR and forget about manual undervolting23:08
DocScrutinizer05until you visit arctic or sahara23:08
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WizardNumberNextSR doesn't work too good for me on frequencies above 72023:08
freemangordonhmm, yah, you might have problems in sahara. but the problem with n900 not stable will be tha last in the list :D:D:D23:08
kerioalso enable cssu-thumb and forget about overclocking :D23:09
WizardNumberNextbeen running 900, 950 and 1000 stable23:09
DocScrutinizer05OC is nonsense anyway23:09
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: those are insane frequencies23:09
freemangordonesp 950 and 100023:09
WizardNumberNextkerio, CPU won't be faster by itself, because of thumb and still apps have to be compiled with thumb23:10
DocScrutinizer05but hey, it might make sense when actually locking CPU clock speed to 1000, without any ondemand ever throttling it down X-P23:10
MrPinguCPU isnt the bottleneck, IO is23:10
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yeah, lot of sense :D23:10
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, yes those are insane, so I normaly run up to 805 sometimes 850, but is it pointless, as there won't be any real improvement and battery would go slightly quiecker23:11
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: CPU won;t be faster, it just will execute better optimized code much better fit in caches23:11
MrPinguHowever, in dosbox 900mhz is alot more playable than 600mhz  ;)23:11
freemangordonMrPingu: aah, maybe it is time to thumb-compile dosbox23:12
freemangordonwho was the maintainer?23:12
MrPingulemme check23:12
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WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I do realize what thumb actually does - it is nice thing, but still apps have to be comppiled to thumb to get any improvement23:12
MrPinguI believe it was Javier Pedro23:12
MrPinguYes, confirmed23:12
* freemangordon has some cloudy memories that once we argued with him hether thumb-compiled dosbox will be stable23:13
kerioWizardNumberNext: meh, the huge improvement is from gcc4.7-linaro rather than the different ABI23:13
freemangordonkerio: both thumb2 and gcc4.7.2-linaro23:13
WizardNumberNextkerio, and that is why I am trying to compile cross-compiler23:13
MrPingufreemangordon: did you receive latest bb-p sources for thumb?23:13
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MrPinguFor some time my indicator is flashing that bb-p can be updated, however non-thumb23:14
kerioMrPingu: the thumby version matches the non-thumby one for me23:14
freemangordonyes, and put the .debs in the repo a couple of days ago23:14
freemangordonMrPingu: try to refresh23:14
MrPinguah didn't look for some days, so that might be right :)23:15
WizardNumberNextI do have 3.7.1 linux kernel compiled by gcc-4.7.2 (march and -mtune flags = barcelona) for my AMD Phenom II X6 1090T based desktop and it is faster, not to mention glibc23:15
kerioWizardNumberNext: do you use gentoo?23:16
WizardNumberNextkerio, no I never liked getoo! I use GNU/Linux Debian23:17
kerioweird, usually the crazy performance-obsessed types use gentoo23:17
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freemangordonkerio: what? I don't even know what gentoo is :P23:18
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* MrPingu is getting some pizza while I waiting for HAM -.-23:18
WizardNumberNextkerio, but I do not need such performance - I have AMD Phenom II X6 1090T and it is running only 800MHz 99% percent of time, so where's the point for gentoo23:18
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* freemangordon is AMD fan too. Phenom II 950 BE 4x3.2GHz23:19
WizardNumberNextkerio, it is just bt of fine-tune of system23:19
MrPinguWhat a nice surprise, new thumb release :)23:19
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I have 960 in my server23:19
freemangordonunfortunately mine is put in a crappy box23:20
freemangordonnvidia 35023:20
WizardNumberNextI do care for graphics - it have to run - nothing more, nothing less23:21
freemangordonMrPingu: what? ofc there is :P23:21
MrPingufreemangordon, you always kill my uptime on my n900 :(23:21
freemangordonMrPingu: ok, tell me what uptime you want and I promise I won't issue new -thumb until it has passed :P23:22
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WizardNumberNextMrPingu, my best uptime on n900 is around 20Ks as far and its only, because I have 5 batteries to format23:22
MrPinguAtleast one month, I was on 28 days :P23:22
freemangordonMrPingu: ok, will try. though I planed a new update with microb-engine using those new NEON-optimized libpng and zlib1g ;)23:23
freemangordonbut, well, after all, one should listen to the users :D:D:D23:23
keriofreemangordon: you still have to recompile x, btw23:23
freemangordonkerio: it is workign fine, ain;t?23:24
keriobut it's sooooooooooo slow!23:24
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I am user as well - release it asap23:24
freemangordonkerio: prove?23:24
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: are you on -thumb?23:24
kerioit's compiled with gcc 4.6!23:24
kerioit's like a whole 0.1 less!23:24
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I would soon23:24
freemangordonkerio: aah, I see23:24
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: well until then you are not ;)23:25
WizardNumberNextkerio, gcc-4.7.x is actually generating slightly bigger binaries (at least on amd64)23:25
WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, I would get it when my battery would die, not long time till then23:26
freemangordonMrPingu: going to post on TMO that there will ne no -thumb until you have 1 month of uptime. ok? :P23:26
MrPinguAlright :P23:26
freemangordonWizardNumberNext: gcc for AMD and gcc for ARM are totally different animals. gcc and gcc-linaro too ;)23:27
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WizardNumberNextfreemangordon, that is why I said on amd6423:27
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MrPinguqbw maintainer/dev posted on his thread23:28
freemangordonhmm, h-h lockups?23:28
MrPinguwasn't there something you wanted to ask about h-h lockups?23:28
freemangordonme? I am not using qbw23:28
WizardNumberNextdifference between ARM and AMD64 is huge as well, something like quite few milion transistors23:28
MrPinguSince I switched to qbw from dcew never had any lockups. so...23:28
MrPinguand ofcourse didn't install widgets with external-loaders23:29
MrPingueg python or qt23:29
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freemangordonMrPingu: dcew if for sure guilty for the way it hanles popen()/fread()23:30
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freemangordonbut I still think its is buggy ppoll()/pselect() which might help h-h to lock23:30
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freemangordonso until we fix that in CSSU i'd rather not make deffinitive statements23:31
keriois it fixed in cssu-thumb?23:31
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freemangordonkerio: no23:32
freemangordoni wanted glibc in -T first23:32
keriothe libc in -devel is fixed, though, right?23:32
Lava_Crofthey freemangordon, i guess you like Half-Life?23:32
keriowho doesn't :D23:32
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Lava_CroftLook what the internets recently spit out then:
freemangordonkerio: but as you know repo refused to import the .debs23:32
Lava_CroftI just took that picture ingame23:32
freemangordonLava_Croft: you can bet on that (/me liking HL)23:33
Lava_Croftfreemangordon: apparently some early alpha leaked to the net23:33
freemangordonLava_Croft: aah, this is HL 223:33
Lava_Croftwhich is what you see in the picture23:33
freemangordonno, this is HL223:33
Lava_Crofteh, that pic is hl2, alpha build23:33
Lava_Croftnot hl223:33
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freemangordonaah, yes23:33
keriowhy are we talking about early alphas when THE GABECUBE is about to be released (maybe)?23:33
Lava_Croftwho cares about another console23:34
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freemangordonLava_Croft: early alpha of what?23:34
freemangordonlinux port?23:34
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Lava_Croftno, halflife123:35
Lava_Croftwhen it was basically still a glorified quake mod23:35
DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: sissi! real sysops know how to upgrade kernel without killing their uptime ;-P23:36
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: kernel? kernel was not upgraded in -thumb some 4-5 months23:37
kerioreal sysops know how to use apt instead of ham!23:38
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MrPingubut apt is so fast23:38
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DocScrutinizer05real sysops appreciate slow pkg managers, gives opportunity for a relaxed cup of good coffee23:39
tadziktest runs <323:40
MrPingupizza ;)23:40
kerionot sure if i already posted that video23:40
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DocScrutinizer05not much video in that video23:41
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merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: you mean like ?23:42
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DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: exactly23:42
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DocScrutinizer05the hover text is even better23:43
merlin1991one of the reasons why I always link to the original, the hover text are awesome 9 out of 10 times :D23:45
DocScrutinizer05not unusual with xkcd, hovertexts often are the icing on top of the already awesome sketch23:45
merlin1991kerio: regarding libc, I tried to ship the fixed one in T7, but the stubborn repo on didn't import it23:45
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freemangordonarcean: why don;t you request a merge?23:49
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freemangordonoops, echan23:50
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