IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2012-12-17

kerioan oxymoron00:00
vi_Pali: Why did you post a link to the old powertop?  what is wrong with the version in the repo?00:08
Palivi_, I found original official DEB package00:09
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vi_Pali: did you ever get the source for meego powertop?00:09
Palino :-(00:10
* fil puzzled -- I can find references to people wanting to rebuild newer rtmpdump from 2010 onwards, and yet the version available from the repos is still the 1.9-1 version from Jan 201000:13
filis it setting the SDK up that's impossible, or building the package, or uploading it, or getting it through some sort of QA?  Or has anyone that's able moved on to pastures new already?00:14
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keriofil: building a binary is easy00:25
keriomaintaining a package in a repo is kinda boring00:26
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keriofil: also, i'd like to watch streams on my n900, just for the novelty00:26
kerioso please do00:26
filkerio: well, as a Debian Developer, I'm aware of what's needed to maintain a package, but the fact that nobody seems to have tried in this case makes me wonder how much extra friction there is when comparing maemo with debian00:35
ShadowJKextras-devel has no QA00:37
* ShadowJK would guess the original maintainer left00:37
filanyway, my wife tells me it's bed-time, so I'll say nn, and read the backlog tomorrow for people trying to inspire me to put the effort in ;-)00:37
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uncloudedis there any way to add a contact ( name and phone number) from the command line?04:01
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robbiethe1stunclouded, I believe so. It;s going to be a dbus command though04:07
uncloudedsounds good.  is there an example somewhere?  I couldn't find one on the wiki04:08
robbiethe1stThere's something in the wiki about 'phone control'04:09
robbiethe1stcheck that out04:09
uncloudedgot it. thank you.
uncloudedthere's an awful lot of good stuff on that page but nothing about adding contacts unfortunately04:15
uncloudedthe store seems to be /home/user/.osso-abook/db/addressbook.db.  what format is that?04:15
robbiethe1stNo clue04:17
robbiethe1stOpen it in a hex editor and see04:17
uncloudedseems to have some binary junk and then VCARD sections04:18
unclouded"file" says: Berkeley DB (Hash, version 8, native byte-order)04:18
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uncloudedruby-bdb ( on a desktop) is helping.  it seems to be a hash from digits ( position within the phone book) to "BEGIN:VCARD..."04:51
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GeneralAntillesSomebody remind me what "CC device" stands for.05:26
Ken-YoungCharge Coupled Device?05:27
SpeedEvilcredit card05:28
SpeedEvilcandy cane05:29
GeneralAntillesIn relationship to the N9s and N950s that were handed out.05:29
Ken-YoungCommunity Council05:29
SpeedEvilcc might mean the NFC on the n905:30
SpeedEvilwhich as I understand it requires a chip the n9 does not have - to pretend to be a nfc payment card05:31
SpeedEvilas well as the cooperation of MasterCard/visa/...05:31
Ken-YoungThe devices that the Community Council distributed which caused a brew-ha-ha.05:31
GeneralAntillesOK, thanks.05:32
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infobotDocScrutinizer: infobot joined!05:51
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DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: coding competition iirc09:50
DocScrutinizer05unclouded:  might be a start09:53
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DocScrutinizer05unclouded: "import evolution" is the key09:56
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uncloudednice idea.  maybe I can get a small python script to add contacts09:58
DocScrutinizer05please share when finished09:58
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uncloudedthis is probably a better way.  ruby-bdb could read the contact database OK but when I wrote a new contact to it and transferred it back to the N900 then eds hung10:03
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micknameis it possible to open any program "fullscreen", without hildon-status-menu?
micknameps windows seems top be undecorated but i would like it to be fullscreen11:29
mickname(and yeah, im not serious)11:30
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StyXmanmickname: some apps work full screen; see the browser, marble, etc12:04
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uncloudedwhat do I need to get python-evolution working?  "evolution.ebook.list_addressbooks()" returns "None".  I'm not running as root and have python-gnome2 installed.  The following example suggests that no special initialisation is required:
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lufunclouded: there is little bit different adressbook obaining as the default addressbook is accessible a little bit different way.12:29
lufI don't remember it. I have to take a look into eds source code ...12:30
uncloudedah ok.  just by playing around I tried "evolution.ebook.open_addressbook('default')".  does that sound right?12:33
lufI don't think so.12:37
lufThe maemo usually goes through the last else (begin with char ^filename)12:37
lufIt's maemo specific.12:38
lufI'm sorry on maemo it should work the way you mentioned.12:38
lufBut maybe system instead of default ... I don't know how it's in python binded.12:39
lufaddressbook/libebook-dbus/e-book.c (in eds source)12:40
lufI hope I remember this well.12:40
uncloudedok, cheers.  i'll have a play and see what works12:42
lufAnd the default should be ok. Because it tries to find the default one and if none is exist then the system one is tried.12:42
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luf(very similar function as for system addressbook)12:43
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DocScrutinizer05unclouded: see
DocScrutinizer05ebook = evolution.ebook.open_addressbook("default")13:26
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DocScrutinizer05you need to be 'user' for it to work13:26
uncloudedcheers, I'm getting the hang of this and writing a python script that looks quite similar13:27
uncloudedalthough this one looks like it does a better job of command line arguments than I was going to13:28
DocScrutinizer05I think my version of the above python thingie got even a few more tweaks, but i can't recall which ones13:30
uncloudedwhere is it best to post when I'm done?  I read that the wiki is read-only now?13:31
merlin1991unclouded: drop it on tmo13:34
DocScrutinizer05for your convenience13:34
DocScrutinizer05unclouded: (post on tmo) i'd suggest to add it to the thread as of above13:37
DocScrutinizer05after all it's just the f^-113:38
DocScrutinizer05aka inverse function13:38
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DocScrutinizer05unclouded: maybe you even could merge the two?13:43
uncloudedthat does make sense.  no point in having several scripts to manage the addressbook from the command line13:45
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DocScrutinizer05btw I really don't get it why so many even devels suggest to invoke their python scripts like "python"13:58
DocScrutinizer05shebang line been invented for a reason after all13:58
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fluxdocscrutinizer05, probably works better in windows?14:02
DocScrutinizer05this rationale makes perfect sense for python scripts that clearly are meant to run on maemo5 only14:04
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DocScrutinizer05but you actually might have a point there, maybe those devels are the ones that came from windows and maybe even still using it as their main OS14:05
DocScrutinizer05so the concept of executable scripts is somewhat strange to them14:05
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merlin1991though you can associate .py files with python in win and start them via double click14:15
merlin1991and the shebangline is ignored by the python interpreter14:15
DocScrutinizer05it has to, since that's the concept of shebang, the *whole* file gets interpreted by the interpreter from shebang14:16
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DocScrutinizer05merlin1991:  acctually the interpreter in shebang gets invoked with all the parameters in shebang, plus the filename itself as additional parameter14:25
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DocScrutinizer05err nonsense in wikipedia - ":" is NOT a comment, it's the null function14:28
uncloudedDocScrutinizer05, it's posted to  will look in to merging the two scripts tomorrow14:28
DocScrutinizer05unclouded: nice :-)14:29
uncloudedthanks for all the help! :)14:32
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thpanyone else got problems logging into right now?14:42
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DocScrutinizer05thp: err, got it fixed this morning? it's been borked since 2 months or more now14:50
DocScrutinizer05CBA to even check14:50
infoboti guess cba is Can't Be Arsed.14:51
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DocScrutinizer05MEH! wated time... >> A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "User::saveSettings". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry 'joerg_rw' for key 2 (". << same as it "ever" was15:08
DocScrutinizer05anybody got NO errors on wiki login?15:09
DocScrutinizer05(and/or anonymous wiki edit ->save)15:09
MohammadAGSo im making a tool for surgical replacement of mce valurs15:10
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: old fart!! :-)))15:11
DocScrutinizer05long time no see15:11
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05, likewise :D15:11
DocScrutinizer05we damn would need any available help from your side during those tough times15:12
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MohammadAGplan to use it in Harmattan's extended-power-menu postinst15:12
MohammadAGsed proved to be not advanced for the job15:13
DocScrutinizer05hey, nice15:13
DocScrutinizer05an augmented led-pattern installer15:13
MohammadAGled-pattern-editor for that15:13
MohammadAGI don't look at mce.ini's keys(!!!)15:13
MohammadAGwell, sections15:13
MohammadAG[Display] etc15:14
MohammadAGI simply look for the key, and replace its value15:14
DocScrutinizer05which *might* give you headache eventualy15:14
MohammadAGyeah, but not for the purpose I'm using it for15:14
MohammadAGonly one possible occurrence for PowerKeyLongAction15:14
DocScrutinizer05sure sure15:14
MohammadAGotherwise mce itself would go bonkers15:14
DocScrutinizer05you pondered using existing ini-parser libs for that?15:15
DocScrutinizer05they _would_ check for keys15:15
DocScrutinizer05err sections15:15
DocScrutinizer05whatever the name15:15
MohammadAGQSettings, but if you remember way back, it doesn't like comments15:16
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that BS15:16
MohammadAGwe tried it for hildon-desktop's transitions.ini15:16
MohammadAGit messed it up afair15:16
DocScrutinizer05so forget my comment15:16
MohammadAGand mce.ini is a bit dangerous15:16
MohammadAGscrew something up and bootloop the user's device :)15:16
DocScrutinizer05implemet a rescue fallback, resetting all edits when bootloop kicks in15:17
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MohammadAGwould be interesting for the CSSU, when I start that :P15:18
* DocScrutinizer05 feels reminded to windows system files security concept, and BURRPS15:18
MohammadAGerr, start looking into that*15:18
DocScrutinizer05anyway, rescueboot seems to do exactly that15:19
DocScrutinizer05links in to bootmenu15:19
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DocScrutinizer05some other sections like events.d seems to have similar concepts15:20
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: anyway, are you aware of the doomsday situation maemo at large is facing right now?15:21
MohammadAGlooks like it's going fine :p15:21
DocScrutinizer05we (council, board) are doing our very best, but jury is still out on whether that's actually enough15:22
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: anyway I'd appreciate very much to see you around on future council meetings in #maemo-meeting, each Friday evening15:23
MohammadAGping me in any way besides IRC15:23
MohammadAG(if I'm not here)15:23
MohammadAGever since I got rid of the iPhone I no longer have always-on push notifications15:24
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MohammadAGhow do I redirect stderr to a file?15:32
jon_ycommand 2>file15:33
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MohammadAGthanks jon-kha15:38
MohammadAGthanks jon_y15:38
jon_ythere was a way to perma redirect, but I forgot15:39
jon_y*forgot how15:39
jon_yclose and open files from the shell and attach them to the descriptors15:40
MohammadAGjon_y, only need a temp solution, qDebug sends to stderr15:40
jon_ykind of why high security programs need to explicitly close and reopen stdout/err15:40
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05, :)15:40
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: man bash|less +'/^[^a-z]*Pipelines'15:40
MohammadAGthat new line at the end bothers me though15:41
DocScrutinizer05jon_y: (permanent way) in shellscript: exec 2>file15:41
jon_yah yes, that15:42
jon_ybash is one of the better shells, I'm forced to use tcsh at work15:43
jon_yfunky quoting system is always broken in tcsh15:44
jon_y"string\"" <- this is an error in tcsh15:44
jon_yunmatched "15:44
DocScrutinizer05for some weird reason, when I started with linux, tcsh been default shell15:44
jon_ywhen was that?15:45
DocScrutinizer05took me like 2 months to go SCREWDAT! and get bash15:45
jon_ywhen was tcsh ever default?15:45
DocScrutinizer05err 199x15:45
jon_yI first used Linux around 200015:45
DocScrutinizer05when started KDE?15:46
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jon_yprobably around 2005-ish15:46
jon_yor later15:46
DocScrutinizer05kde3 maybe15:47
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DocScrutinizer05FoundedOctober 14, 199615:48
jon_yI used kde3 for the first time was on Knoppix :)15:48
DocScrutinizer05well, I guess I started before that15:48
jon_yvery much gnome before that since it was default on redhat based distros15:48
DocScrutinizer05 so that's about the time where I started looking into linux (minix before)15:50
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DocScrutinizer05probably before some of you were born ;-D15:52
jon_ywell, the Linux machines at work are SLES machines15:53
jon_ykernel 2.6.16 is the most bleeding edge :(15:54
jon_yor was it 2.6.1815:54
DocScrutinizer05dang, those 40 disks full of slackware, I recall and shudder15:54
jon_yglacial pace indeed15:54
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jon_ywow, there is a SLES1215:55
jaskaforced.. to.. use... tcsh :(15:58
DocScrutinizer05and before linux there been true unix and AmigaOS15:58
jaskacruel and unusual punishment.15:58
jon_ythey don't know any better15:59
jaskain hell?15:59
DocScrutinizer05jaska: +115:59
jon_yalso, I'm forced to use PHP16:00
jon_yyeah, it is kind of a hell hole16:00
DocScrutinizer05well, I heard it's usefull for a certain class of problems16:00
jon_ythe thing about php is that when it errors out, you get a blank page16:00
jon_yno message whatsoever16:01
jon_yyou have to make a support ticket to get the lazy ass admin to read the apache logs16:01
jon_ylogs are lockdown tight that nobody else can read it16:01
DocScrutinizer05use your own local apache for development then?16:02
jon_yyeah, on my windows machine :|16:02
jon_ycompany laptop runs windows only16:02
DocScrutinizer05mmmpff :x16:02
DocScrutinizer05reminds me of my last and current job16:02
jon_ysometimes, even if you rsync the code over to the production machine, you still get a mysterious blank page :(16:03
jon_y*php code16:03
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DocScrutinizer05tribute to gates16:03
jon_ywell, the worst thing is that I sometimes encounter Perl code that don't use strict16:04
jon_ycthulhu pops up when you upgrade the Perl interpreter16:04
jon_yPerl Critic should be mandatory16:05
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jon_yand occasionally you find stupid C/C++ code written by shell script people16:05
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DocScrutinizer05though decent shell script people are rare and also are capable of writing decent code in any language16:06
jon_yhow stupid could you get to do system(string1 + std::string(argv[2])) in a sudo program16:06
jon_ythe only reason they C++ is that they couldn't figure out how to concat in C16:07
jon_yand glib because they can't understand memory management16:08
DocScrutinizer05ok, time to wave and run16:09
jon_yI'm lucky to be moving off maintaining a program that does that glib memory allocation, YET have input limits16:09
jon_yit has arbitrary input limits, yet uses dynamic memory :(16:09
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jon_yI wonder what other adventures I'll have in 201316:10
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: lazy bugger, /join #maemo-ssu !!!16:10
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: what's wrong with your irc client?16:11
DocScrutinizer05no autojoin?16:11
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: you're still main maintainer of cssu-t16:11
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05, my client is fine, znc goes down -> channels lost16:14
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thpDocScrutinizer05: seems like it's not yet fixed. [...] from within function "User::saveSettings". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry 'thp' for key 2 (".16:29
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DocScrutinizer05thp: see recent mail on community-ML from jaffa16:30
DocScrutinizer05long hurting PITA16:31
DocScrutinizer05and now bbl, for good16:31
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ShadowJKheh. Got a call from someone requesting help upgrading their Lumia's OS.19:05
ShadowJKZune is pretty horrible and confusing, well and also WinPho, it told him he needed Windows 8.19:06
ShadowJKBiggest issue though (and here it gets on-topic again) was his Lumia's USB port was loose :-)19:06
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RST38hShadowJK: I thought they made it rock solid after n900?19:09
ShadowJKto that I say: lol19:10
RST38his reliable robust microUSB at all possible? =)19:11
ShadowJKthe cool thing about the round plugs is that they're more or less self centering19:12
ShadowJKand they don't even stop working if you bend them19:12
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* RST38h asks the Tentacled One to return the 2.5mm plug19:15
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DocScrutinizer512.5mm for USB would be a charm if it wasn't for the USB2.0 requirements regarding symmetry and parasitic capacity, anf the ID pin19:24
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RST38hDoc: I just want it for charging19:31
RST38hDoc: They can keep damn USB for data.19:31
RST38hAlso, circular jacks are known to carry stereo sound *and* video, that is 3 wires + ground. Not bad for such a simple design.19:32
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DocScrutinizer51for charging nothing beats a pair of gold plated pads on case surface19:33
DocScrutinizer51with a 'plug' with two pogopins and a magnet19:33
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DocScrutinizer51well, maybe inductive charging19:34
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kerioit happened again, current absorbed ~200mA with nothing running19:40
keriopowertop reporting a lot of DMA wakeups19:40
keriowhat the shit19:40
kerioDocScrutinizer: what the shit19:42
kerioit wasn't bluetooth, it wasn't the modem, it wasn't wifi19:43
ShadowJKifconfig wlan0 down19:43
kerioShadowJK: hmm, i actually haven't checked19:43
ShadowJKthen offline cellular internets19:43
kerioi stopped sscd at one point19:44
kerioand stopped bluetoothd19:44
kerio...maybe that didn't necessarily stop the cellmo?19:44
ShadowJKwlan is sometimes left active even though it looks disconnected in gui :)19:45
keriohm, i haven't actually disconnected the wifi connection this morning19:46
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keriobut what about the high DMA?19:47
kerioit was like 200019:48
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kerioShadowJK: could the uSD swap cause this?20:06
ShadowJKnever happened to me20:08
ShadowJKUsually mysterius powerdraws have been either wifi or cellular20:08
ShadowJKthey both tend to get stuck in lowsignal conditions for me20:08
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DocScrutinizer05radio stacks are definitely not recovering well from a few certain state transitions20:32
DocScrutinizer05seems to me that some state transitions have no timeout20:33
kerioShadowJK: doing ifconfig wlan0 down would fix that, right?20:33
DocScrutinizer05that and maybe rmmod wl125120:34
DocScrutinizer05wl12xx actually20:35
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* ShadowJK 'd try ifconfig wlan0 down first20:47
ShadowJKalso because that codepath probably has more testing than rmmod codepath ;p20:48
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DocScrutinizer05I'd think they are complementary20:55
DocScrutinizer05you probably can't rmmod with if up20:55
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DocScrutinizer05and at least for pre-PR1.1(?) it been notorious that WLAN eats battery like mad when not associated to an AP, until you'd rmmod wl12xx20:57
DocScrutinizer05prolly a bug in wl12xx.ko20:57
DocScrutinizer05the origin and birth of all those auto-disconnect tools btw, in my book21:04
DocScrutinizer05nowadays they should be more or less of arguable usefulness, except for inbound IP traffic via GPRS (pings etc) which you can't stop in any other way than tearing down the APN of GPRS21:06
DocScrutinizer05which I doubt any of those auto-disconnectors does21:06
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DocScrutinizer05frals: on topic - is fmms tearing down the existing APN connection to establish the MMS connection, or did you manage to find a way to have concurrent APNs active on BB5 cmt?21:09
DocScrutinizer05I gather that happend with a truckload of help from ISI guys?21:11
fralsjust needed a pointer from one of the guys there, it was already implemented in the stack21:13
DocScrutinizer05or is this wireless modem API spec actually so much to the point that it allows concurrent APNs to get set up and activated21:13
DocScrutinizer05iirc AT cmd set according to 3GPP allows up to 421:14
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DocScrutinizer05damn, this system (maemo5) had - and still has - such an amazing potential that just rots due to missing documentation21:16
fralssome operators dont allow it thou21:16
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DocScrutinizer05recently I heard stskeeps sighing "If only Nokia had opened up ICD2!"21:17
DocScrutinizer05he considered it the more functional alternative to networkmanager and whatnot else available out there21:18
DocScrutinizer05I tend to agree21:19
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how long a porduct has to be EOL until Nokia's lawyers declare all documentation and related stuff non-relevant for further business and just allow to dump it to some rapidshare or git or whatever21:20
DocScrutinizer05without any further inspection or approvement21:21
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DocScrutinizer05Nokia: consider that it's *deletion* of data that costs energy (see wikipedia: "entropy") -  so please just move it to a publish storage, think green, save our environment!21:24
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: i'm not sure that that's how it works21:28
DocScrutinizer05orly? ;-P21:29
DocScrutinizer05or did you mean my rationale regarding enery<->info convertability? I could try to find out ho many Joule worth of energy is contained in one bit21:30
DocScrutinizer05how many*21:30
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RST38hHow about half a bit? =)21:30
DocScrutinizer05no, I'n NOT e*_21:30 we are already in the metaphysical territory...21:31
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: like with energy you have a Plank quantum for info as well21:31
RST38hWell... you do not really know21:31
DocScrutinizer05and no, that's absolutely non-metaphysical21:31
RST38hSee, you are thinking digital terms21:32
keriowe're thinking information21:32
kerioa non-quantized amount of information is impossible to have, and impossible to transfer21:32
RST38hBut there are all kinds of information storage devices which contain tangled data21:33
RST38hSee "associative memory"21:33
keriothat's just compression21:33
RST38hWell, for a sysadmin, everything is compression21:33
RST38hBut what if the input is analogue and the output is analogue and there is a neural network in between?21:33
RST38hOr some other phenomenon that stores sum of states?21:34
kerioyou have a physical loss of precision at *some* point21:34
keriothere you can quantify21:34
RST38hkerio: You can't talk about "precision" without defining domain first21:35
RST38hin discrete domain you have got finite sets of bits that you sysadmins call "integers"21:35
RST38hthey are not really integers in math sense, because they are a subset of the integer set21:36
DocScrutinizer051 bit of entropy frees a certain amount of other energy though. It's clearly defined. I'm not totally sure this is already what I'm searching for, but the highest entropy is in a filled storage and the lowest entropy in a all-zeroes storage21:36
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RST38hDoc, you did notice Wolfram telling you that "bits and joules are not compatible", didn't you?21:37
DocScrutinizer05and that's the reason this little daemon that opens the microscopic door to let fast water molecules to the right chanber and only slow molecules to the left, well it doesn't work since that daemon needs *energy* to **forget** what he just learned about speed of that molecule21:37
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RST38hDoc: Now, replace molecules with electrons or photons, and go crazy =)21:38
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: sure I noticed that, but did you see the words "entropy2 and "Joule" in the formula below?21:38
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RST38hI think poor engine is trying to make SOME sense of the query21:38
RST38hBut the query is still invalid without specifying how you represent bits21:39
RST38hOh well, enough metaphysics, sleepy time.21:40
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: fast and slow water photons??? .oO(ªÐ€Ł©®)21:40
RST38hDoc: there are plank time and plank distance btw21:41
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: nope, you don't get it. Entropy is about pure info, irrespective of representation21:41
RST38hDoc: in case you want to ponder on that world-is-a-simulation thing ;)21:41
RST38hDoc: You just used molecules, didn't you? Here is your representation21:41
RST38hI mean, yes, there is entropy in info theory and there is entropy in thermodynamics. Now, are they the same thing? =)21:42
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: a cleared storage contains potential energy21:43
DocScrutinizer05>>However, due to the connection between thermodynamic entropy and information entropy, this also meant that the recorded measurement must not be erased. <<21:46
DocScrutinizer05since erasure eats energy21:46
DocScrutinizer05just as much energy as you could've possibly harvested by that daemon21:47
DocScrutinizer05ergo: 1 bit has a clearly defined amount of energetic equivalent21:48
DocScrutinizer05no matter how you2represent" it21:48
DocScrutinizer05no matter how you "represent" it21:48
DocScrutinizer05neither the representation (instance) of the info nor that of the energy is relevant21:49
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DocScrutinizer05>>Erasing information is a thermodynamically irreversible process that increases the entropy of a system<<21:50
DocScrutinizer05by decreasing the local entropy in the storage21:51
DocScrutinizer05anyway no matter what wolfram says about compatibility between bit and Joule, a 4.1E-21 Joule/bit sound about right to me21:58
kerioat 300K though21:59
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: never mess with a physics prof about intriguing physics niche cases22:03
DocScrutinizer05odds are you're not that involved in the topic as your opponent22:03
DocScrutinizer05>>Regarding Landauer's principle, the minimum energy dissipated by deleting information was experimentally measured by Eric Lutz et al. in 2012.[11] <<22:08
DocScrutinizer05[11]^ jobs (2012-03-07). "The unavoidable cost of computation revealed : Nature News & Comment". Retrieved 2012-09-07.22:09
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DocScrutinizer05so pretty please Nokia, don't increase entropy of our universe, just release complete source code of maemo instead of deleting it eventually when nobody can recall what it been for22:11
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keriosomehow i don't think that the entropy generated by sending the source somewhere is less than the entropy generated by deleting it22:12
freemangordonkerio: then you don;t know what entropy is22:13
DocScrutinizer05kerio: SSSHHHHHH!22:13
kerioDocScrutinizer05: oh, sorry22:13
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: isn't Maxwell's demon being dead some kind of old news?22:17
freemangordonaah, those journalists :D22:17
DocScrutinizer05and since it is and I knew why, I was so certain about me being right in my dispute with RST38h22:18
freemangordonheh, seems I am late for the party :D:D:D. I just read the backscroll22:19
DocScrutinizer05Landauer's Limit22:19
DocScrutinizer05If I (an EE concerned about chip building) wouldn't ever have heard about it, I should serach for another job22:20
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: how close are we to that limit, in current circuits?22:23
DocScrutinizer05>>Meanwhile, in fledgling quantum computers, which exploit the rules of quantum physics to achieve greater processing power, this limitation is already being confronted. “Logic processing in quantum computers already is well within the Landauer regime,” says physicist Seth Lloyd of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge. “One has to worry about Landauer's principle all the time.”<<22:24
DocScrutinizer05kerio: in silicon chips that work with thousands of electrons to store a single bit, we're not yet close22:25
MohammadAGAny tips on soldering?22:26
MohammadAGNeed to solder ID pin with GND22:26
DocScrutinizer05don't burn your fingers ;-P22:26
MohammadAGAnd the cable before that, broke it by mistake22:26
DocScrutinizer05on a more serious comment: don't inhale the fumes22:26
DocScrutinizer05and practice practice practice22:27
MohammadAGBesides that?22:27
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MohammadAGThe practice part is hard22:27
DocScrutinizer05more practice22:27
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DocScrutinizer05most important two bits (well, 3) of soldering: use right temperature of iron, and heat both objects you want to connect. And use high quality solder22:29
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keriothink of the entropy you created to share those three bits!22:29
merlin1991and  gain, dn't inhlae the fumes22:29
DocScrutinizer05and a #4: don't move the solder joint until it's completely solid and cold22:30
merlin1991and again, don't inhale the fumes22:30
merlin1991also it's handy to have one of those solder removal tools in case stuff goes the wrongdirection22:30
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SpeedEvil#1 don't pick up/catch  the iron by the hot end.22:31
SpeedEvileven if it's 'off'.22:31
DocScrutinizer05too hot soldering iron will burn the flux in your solder and even the solder itself. Too low temperature will cause you to heat stuff too long and so distruct it22:31
flux#2 solder with your pants on22:33
SpeedEvilthat one is also important.22:33
merlin1991#3 don't put the soldering iron flat on the table because "it doesn't touch the desk anyways"22:33
merlin1991#4 don't try to catch it when it falls after having violated #322:34
DocScrutinizer05honestly, just practice practice practice. You'll learn all of the rest no other way22:35
DocScrutinizer05except maybe that bit with the fumes ;-P22:35
DocScrutinizer05for that look at me X-P22:36
kerio420 BLAZE IT22:36
DocScrutinizer05oooh!! NEVER use cheap flux!!22:37
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: those fumes... are they the nice kind that gets you high?22:37
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merlin1991kerio: you're better off with glue ;)22:38
DocScrutinizer05unless it's explicitly rated "electronic flux" it's more of a etching stuff than any help for your circuit22:38
DocScrutinizer05kerio: only if you love lead in your brain22:39
keriowho doesn't?22:39
DocScrutinizer05so yep, glue is waaaay better22:39
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DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: probably when you pay as much for your first solder wire as you pay for your first dirt cheap soldering iron (30W), you're on the safe side22:41
* DocScrutinizer05 thinks there must be a billion and one youtube videos titled "soldering for dummies" or the like22:42
MohammadAGLooked at those22:43
MohammadAGBut it all looks simpler in vids22:43
MohammadAGI found the ID pin, its not connected22:44
MohammadAGBut i broke pin 322:45
MohammadAGWell, whatever was connected to it22:45
DocScrutinizer05anyway when there's any noticable delay in melting soldering wiro on iron's tip, it's too cold. When solder bubbles, "cooks" and smokes a lot it's probably too hot. When solder gets "brittle" while on hot tip, it definitely is way too hot22:45
DocScrutinizer05remove solder from tip with a wet sponge22:46
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DocScrutinizer05well, damp sponge22:46
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DocScrutinizer05if solder falls off from tip instead of melting on it and sticking to it, get a better tip, the one you got is uter crap22:48
merlin1991hm eudev looks interesting22:48
DocScrutinizer05or you forgot the sponge thing22:48
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: and honestly, practice on a at least 10 arbitrary thin wires before you try fixing real stuff22:49
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DocScrutinizer05100% guarantee that you ruin your first 5 solder joints and the objects you try to solder22:50
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DocScrutinizer05after ~50 joints you might call yourself a beginner, depending on your talent a promising or a desperate one22:52
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: soldering in one sentence: clean your object to solder, place tip with a tiny bit of solder to both object you want to join same time, to heat them both up, then feed a bit of solder to *the* *objects* NOT to tip, objects need to be hot enough to make the solder wire melt, stop feeding solder when both objects are connected / covered with one small blob of molten solder. Done22:57
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DocScrutinizer05remove solder iron and wire and let the joint cool down *without* *moving* it22:57
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DocScrutinizer05the whole process mustn't take longer than ~10s. If it doesn't work in 10s, let cool down completely and start from very beginning23:04
Gh0styat least someone who knows how it's done correctly23:05
Gh0stya lot of guys would melt the solder on the tip etc :p23:05
DocScrutinizer05well, I'm practicing it since, duh... 43 years?23:05
Gh0styI am not that old yet ;p23:06
Gh0stybut soldering since my 12th or smth :}23:06
DocScrutinizer056th or 7th23:06
Gh0stybut nowadays its not the soldering but the firmware that breaks :(23:06
Gh0stymy n900 still acting up ...23:07
Gh0stynow its like:23:07
Gh0stypull battery23:07
Gh0styled controller work + keyboard backligt works fine23:07
Gh0styleave it on for a day (in stdby)23:07
Gh0stykeyboard backlight works only on the left hand side of the keyboard23:07
Gh0styand the led itself doesnt work anymore :/23:08
DocScrutinizer05you tried to directly hammer the sysnodes?23:08
Gh0stybut I guess its software messing it up after a while23:09
DocScrutinizer05quite unusual23:09
Gh0styso a full reflash could possibly fix it? :/23:09
DocScrutinizer05you got fcam?23:09
Gh0stydid have, removed it a while ago23:09
Gh0stypowerkernel yes23:09
DocScrutinizer05powerkernel *had* strange stuff in sys for lp552323:10
Gh0styafter fcam things improved a little (before the led was dead even after pulling battery)23:10
DocScrutinizer05fcam does strange stuff to the non-strange sys nodes of lp552323:10
Gh0stystrange thing is ... this happens *now*23:10
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Gh0stywhile I run the same software for ... probably half a year :/23:10
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DocScrutinizer05honestly to me this doesn't exactly sound like sw problem23:11
PaliDocScrutinizer05, what? kernel-power has no patch for lp552323:11
DocScrutinizer05Pali: it *had*23:12
DocScrutinizer05I know you removed it eventually23:12
Pali$ git log | grep lp5 --> empty23:12
Palinow I looked into full diff history and only nokia patches has substring lp523:14
DocScrutinizer05Gh0sty: for f in /sys/class/leds/lp5523:kb*/; do echo 50 >${f}led_current; echo 100 >${f}brightness; done23:14
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Gh0styand what should that do?23:15
Gh0stylight it up like a christmastree? :p23:15
DocScrutinizer05shine up all 6 kbd leds23:15
DocScrutinizer05only if you don't enter on device (key-release event)23:16
DocScrutinizer05if you enter it on device, prepend a `sleep 10`23:16
PaliDocScrutinizer05, ok I found some *disabled* leds-lp5523.diff patch in git23:16
Palis/git/git history/23:16
infobotPali meant: DocScrutinizer05, ok I found some *disabled* leds-lp5523.diff patch in git history23:16
DocScrutinizer05Pali: toldya23:16
MohammadAGOk, so my first practice attempt failed23:17
MohammadAGI knocked off some chip23:17
Gh0stylol DocScrutinizer0523:18
Gh0styyou know what that did?23:18
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05: how do you stand this shit23:18
Gh0stynow the right hand side is lit up23:18
Gh0styand the left is out :p23:18
Gh0stywhen executing the command however the whole keyboard lights up shortly23:19
Gh0styfrom the moment I touch the "screen activate" button23:19
Gh0styits again the left side23:19
DocScrutinizer05Gh0sty: you maybe got a pre-summit (very early proto) N900?23:19
Gh0stynot that I know of23:20
Gh0stybought it in a regular store23:20
DocScrutinizer05then nope23:20
DocScrutinizer05mce borked23:20
DocScrutinizer05or something weird interfering with mce on lp552323:20
Gh0stycan i do selective backup?23:21
Gh0stylike ... only contacts or something ...23:21
DocScrutinizer05sure, that's what maemo backup gives you23:21
Gh0styah yes23:21
Gh0styso used to dumping the whole thing with backupmenu :p23:21
DocScrutinizer05you might want to do a lsof|grep lp55 before23:22
Gh0styno modules like that23:22
DocScrutinizer05though that not even shows mce on my system23:22
Gh0styergh no open stuff like that :p23:23
DocScrutinizer05modinfo leds_lp552323:23
DocScrutinizer05srcversion:     6C5B926F43DDD08CE15A80223:24
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DocScrutinizer05I honestly hope KP52 doesn't fsckup I2C again23:26
Gh0styI could try to downgrade kernel again I guess23:27
DocScrutinizer05oops KP5123:27
Gh0stylemme see23:27
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DocScrutinizer05this *very* much feels like a hw issue, at least something like I2C kernel driver fckdup, like it been in KP48(?)23:28
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Gh0stywhat should i install23:29
Gh0stykernel-maemo ?23:29
DocScrutinizer05unless you already gone thumby23:30
DocScrutinizer05thombified system23:31
DocScrutinizer05If you were, you'd know23:31
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DocScrutinizer05honestly, reflash stock PR1.3 and test23:32
DocScrutinizer05then go back to current system via BM and act accordingly to what you found23:33
Gh0stynow its stuck in reboot loop23:33
Gh0styfuck :(23:33
DocScrutinizer05keep in mind that you need to install same KP51 before you restore from BM23:34
DocScrutinizer05you flashed stock kernel but forgot the modules?23:34
Gh0styah thats not a dependency23:35
DocScrutinizer05flash KP51 via flasher, to recover23:35
Gh0stybootmenu but no keyboard to work :(23:35
Gh0stywhere do i find kp51 for flasher?23:36
DocScrutinizer05Pali: ^^23:36
infobotwell, kp is
Paliflash stock 2.6.28 version23:37
DocScrutinizer05he got kp51 modules23:37
Palialso depmod was called?23:38
DocScrutinizer05I gather flashing stock kernel is what he did23:38
DocScrutinizer05then bootlooped23:38
Palihere is flasher deb package:
DocScrutinizer05so what?23:39
Palijust undeb it and flash kernel fiasco image23:39
DocScrutinizer05that's for systems that don't bootloop23:39
Pali$ dpkg -x package.deb unpacked_dir23:39
DocScrutinizer05Gh0sty: ^^^23:39
Pali$ flasher-3.5 -F unpacked_dir/boot/<image>.fiasco -f -R23:40
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DocScrutinizer05Gh0sty: ^^^23:40
Gh0stychecking ...23:41
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, any news from nokia/nemein about migration?23:44
Gh0stydpkg -x gives a dir with only etc and usr23:44
Gh0styno boot23:44
DocScrutinizer05Pali: nope23:44
PaliGh0sty, sry, you need package kernel-power23:45
Palinot -flasher23:45
Gh0styah k23:46
Gh0styhmm i had 51 not 51r1 I guess :p23:46
Paliyou should use r123:46
Gh0styyeah but if I did have none r123:47
Gh0stycan I flash with r1 ?23:47
Paliit has same vermagic23:47
Palionly suffix in deb package version23:47
infobotPali meant: "yes"23:48
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Gh0styit uninstalled all the kernel-power stuff I guess? :/23:55
Gh0styits not rebooting23:56
Gh0styjust shuts down now :/23:56
Gh0stysee the white nokia screen for 10 sec23:57
Gh0styand black23:57
DocScrutinizer05dang, flash PR1.3 stock23:59
DocScrutinizer05restore BM23:59
DocScrutinizer05s/restore BM/err scratch that, install KP51, then restore from BM/23:59

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