IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2012-12-08

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* Sicelo had to remove NM from his machine too. 00:08
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SkryI've been quite satisfied with netcfg, never bothered myself with NM00:20
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PaliSkry, there is logic problem with net-*-auto daemons00:37
Paliand big problem in wpa_actiond (not part of netcfg, but dependency) - it does not exit when wpa_supplicant is killed by SIGKILL00:38
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Palibut now all problems seems to be fixed :-)00:38
PaliI added also udev script for hotplugging interfaces00:38
Paliand more parts are extended/rewritten or fixed00:39
PaliI added more config options for wpa_supplicant (8021x and EAP)00:39
PaliSicelo, are you going to try my patched netcfg? :-)00:42
roostrus`hi guys,  does any of you use something but hildon?00:46
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DocScrutinizer05dang, none of council staying n IRC01:28
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DocScrutinizer05anyway, those guys of council who haven't missed the date of meeting have discussed a quite interesting project to port maemo to nexus701:28
Woody14619I seem to see one Council member on IRC....01:29
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DocScrutinizer05I created #maemo-nexus7 for those interested in this project to meet there and have their own channel with high S/N ratio01:29
DocScrutinizer05mentalistTraceur will push some meeting minutes that already mention it01:30
DocScrutinizer05nota bene this is no council driven project, we are council not project leads per se. So we just facilitate things. This project would need capable developers to even escape the vaporware state01:31
DocScrutinizer05though I'm willing to take a coordinating and consulting part in such project01:32
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: thanks for your input during meeting :-)01:34
* ShadowJK joins and notices the usual lurker suspects and lols01:36
ShadowJKAtleast one N7 owner though01:36
* SpeedEvil has 3.01:37
DocScrutinizer05oh yeah, we discussed to support this project with devel devices01:37
SpeedEviltwo broken ones01:37
DocScrutinizer05they seem not that stable01:38
SpeedEvilI need to swap the 16g motherboard into my main device01:38
Palinetcfg (from archlinux) with all my patches working fine :-) ... I think I will start it using also on n90001:38
SpeedEvilbought broken01:38
SpeedEvilfrom eBay01:38
SpeedEvilwith mouse plugged in, easy to test stuff01:38
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05: what do you make of this02:00
MohammadAGThe button behind it doesn't work and the digitizer doesnt work02:00
ShadowJKthe fuck02:01
SpeedEvillooks melt02:01
SpeedEvilwhat is this?02:01
ShadowJKthe way the traces are outlined, was this zapped with overcurrent and overvoltage?02:01
MohammadAGWas a perfectly good N802:01
MohammadAGNot unless the symbian kernel divided by 002:01
SpeedEvilwater ingress?02:02
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MohammadAGWater does that?02:02
SpeedEvilit may.02:03
SpeedEvilfirst you get a little current flowing through the damp board02:03
MohammadAGHm, friend's careless, so that could've happened02:04
ShadowJKHow does the other side of that look?02:04
SpeedEvilthat electroplates bits of the tracks, till you get an internal short02:04
MohammadAGIts a non working button02:04
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MohammadAGLooks fried02:05
MohammadAGWeird enough, the LEDs work02:05
ShadowJKIt looks... unlikely02:07
* ShadowJK wonders if there are details hiding under the button on the other side02:07
MohammadAGShadowJK: DocScrutinizer05, best shot02:09
ShadowJKstill wtf :/02:13
jon_yheh, RMS kicks Ubuntu02:18
Hurrianohai MohammadAG02:19
MohammadAGHey Hurrian02:20
Hurrianhmm, never seen water damage causing a short to /burn/ the board02:20
Hurrianbut it looks like whatever component was there, is now toast.02:21
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MohammadAGMight be cheaper to sell it as parts02:21
DocScrutinizer05concur with ShadowJK02:21
MohammadAGThe digitizer is 79 euros02:21
MohammadAGAnd there's a good chance its not that02:22
Hurrianyou may want to check with another N8 if the digitizer still works02:22
Hurrianmaybe it's a component on the board that fried02:22
MohammadAGNo other N8s I can disassemble02:22
Hurrianwell then, you're shooting in the dark.02:23
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Hurrianyou may want to check the back alley phone repair shops, they usually test each component that way02:24
Hurrianall you're getting at Nokia Care is a light swap ;)02:24
MohammadAGNo nokia care here either :P02:24
MohammadAGA board swap would be costly right?02:24
HurrianFor a device as old as the N8? Definitely.02:25
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ShadowJKIs this button supposed to be illuminated?02:30
ShadowJKnot that it makes any more sense if it is, but..02:30
HurrianToo bad, a N8 would still be fine running the Belle ROM02:30
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DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: if the series R is fsckd, it indeed would make some sense02:31
ShadowJKIt looks on the reverse side pic like the maximum heating is across the button itself02:32
ShadowJKThough dunno, those lines from it02:33
DocScrutinizer05usually such crap is caused by stained contacts02:33
MohammadAGShadowJK: the button has two leds next to it that work fine02:33
DocScrutinizer05if that button is master-on and really switches power from battery, I wouldn't rule out anything02:34
ShadowJKIt kinda looks like a massive burst of energy from the button contacts02:34
MohammadAGIts the menu button02:34
DocScrutinizer05nfc then02:34
DocScrutinizer05maybe SpeedEvil is right with his water theroy02:34
MohammadAGIts actually the best theory02:35
DocScrutinizer05how does it smell?02:35
MohammadAGThe cover was slightly broken, if water got in it'd be stuck till removed02:35
DocScrutinizer05does it smell like burt plastic?02:35
MohammadAGNothing special, pcb-y02:35
DocScrutinizer05then it's water02:36
ShadowJKThe water would've shorted stuff elsewhere, right...02:36
ShadowJKlike the pull-up resistor for this button or something like that?02:36
MohammadAGNot if it only got in there02:37
MohammadAGBut the LED working fine annoys me02:37
SpeedEvilthe rear looked like it had soup residue on the plastics02:39
MohammadAGI find soap more believable02:40
jon_ydried soup02:40
ShadowJKlooked like normal finger grease to me02:40
MohammadAGOh wow, the picture looks better than the real thing02:42
MohammadAGGuess fixing this would be hard02:42
MohammadAGMight as well file the OTG cable to Micro B, the N8's dead anyway02:43
MohammadAGWell, it boots up and works fine02:44
MohammadAGExcept the button and digitizer02:45
MohammadAGWhat's the best way to file the port from micro A to B?02:45
DocScrutinizer05closely inspecting the first photo I still think that's been a short02:45
SpeedEvilindeed, of some form02:46
SpeedEvilit could be internal, due to water, or a gross overload02:46
DocScrutinizer05note that charger plug is nearby02:47
DocScrutinizer05if something touched switch's metal body02:47
SpeedEvillethal charger/.02:48
DocScrutinizer05whatever, I declare this a fatal defect02:48
DocScrutinizer05I'd not spend any cent or minute on trying to repair it02:49
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SpeedEvilyeah. in principle, with schematics and time, and ...02:50
DocScrutinizer05looks like vias got fused02:51
DocScrutinizer05the change in color suggests it's been heat that caused that, not water02:52
DocScrutinizer05the change from dark bluegreen to light yellowgreen02:52
DocScrutinizer05also the dark pattern structures around the vias02:53
DocScrutinizer05X shaped02:53
DocScrutinizer05and the dark color around vias is visible even on component side02:54
DocScrutinizer05and goes completely thru the PCB material, at edge02:55
DocScrutinizer05that's been heat02:55
ShadowJKI was going to suggest lightning strike02:55
DocScrutinizer05quit epossible02:55
DocScrutinizer05I don't see any water stains either - unless somebody wiped them away...02:56
DocScrutinizer05if this was caused by water, you should see white salts02:57
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MohammadAGBoth charging ports are close actually03:02
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SpeedEvilI've seen heat damage from water03:17
SpeedEvilthe PCB gets damp internally03:17
SpeedEvilyou get dendrites and then more substantial conductors formed by electroplating03:18
SpeedEvilthis can then heat/char03:18
SpeedEvilnot saying that it's not surge damage though03:18
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DocScrutinizer05I still wonder how nexus7 has changed the "maemo isn't portable" factoid03:35
ShadowJKLike cordia portable?03:35
DocScrutinizer05also what's wrong with nemo/mer + cordia(?)03:36
DocScrutinizer05except it obviously not automatically includes a dialer and other core stuff03:37
ShadowJKdialer isn't relevant for n7 :-)03:38
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SpeedEvilI have my landline on my n703:39
SpeedEvilalso, there is a variant with 3g03:40
DocScrutinizer05I think we need a better definition of the goals of such a project03:41
ShadowJKjust start hacking ;)03:42
SpeedEviland where it differs from porting fish03:42
DocScrutinizer05I mean, "hey it's got buntkuh running now, so now it's time to get maemo on it" is somewhat naive. This 'rationale' neglects that ubuntu is in no way sustantially more helpful to port maemo than e.g. any random android OS running on same platform was03:42
DocScrutinizer05and actually what *means* "maemo on nexus7"? does it mean we got a HD windowmanager instead of gnome? is it about the UI? about sourcecode portability for apps? about binary compatibility even?03:45
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DocScrutinizer05one thing is pretty clear it seems: we won't see ovi maps running on nexus7-'maemo'03:46
DocScrutinizer05just for an example03:46
DocScrutinizer05neither the N900 version of angry birds03:47
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DocScrutinizer05and no way something like calendar, contacts, conversations... alas tracker will be 'easy' to port03:48
SpeedEvilNokia 'here' maps has an a pi for maps.03:51
SpeedEvilit's ridiculous though03:51
SpeedEvilmore than 2500 uses per month, and you need to pay $1500/no03:51
ShadowJKwhat's "uses"03:55
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SpeedEviluses is not closely defined - it seemed to be a pi calls04:02
SpeedEvilper app, not user04:03
SpeedEviland that 1500 only covers you for 100k uses04:03
SpeedEvilso basically over a cent per use04:03
SpeedEvilif each user scrolls a few times and clicks a couple of things04:04
DocScrutinizer05what will happen if the limit is reached?04:05
SpeedEvilapp stops working presumably04:05
DocScrutinizer05will they send the russian guys to get their money?04:05
SpeedEvilmaybe with some grace period04:05
SpeedEvileach app needs a key04:06
DocScrutinizer05how does key endorsement work?04:06
SpeedEvilnot gone into it in detail04:07
SpeedEvilI assume you apply, specify the class of key, ...04:07
DocScrutinizer05if it's via some interface, each user can apply for his own key04:07
SpeedEvilthe terms I read prohibited that04:07
SpeedEvilbut possibly not each user forking a GPL app :-)04:08
DocScrutinizer05prohibited what?04:08
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SpeedEvilusing multiple keys per app04:08
DocScrutinizer05well, then the user needs to rename the app04:09
DocScrutinizer05but honestly I'm pretty much not interested in the whole stuff too much04:11
SpeedEvilindeed, I just happened to wonder, and check it out earlier, to see if it was usable.04:11
DocScrutinizer05Nokia wants to monetize their teleatlas stuff. Fine. Not with me though04:12
SpeedEvilthe android app basically sucks.04:12
SpeedEvilI'm fine with paying for good maps, to a degree.04:12
AoyagiI hear TomTom should come to Android04:13
DocScrutinizer05there are several available already04:13
SpeedEvilbut putting the limit at where a map app with 100 active users needs to buy a 1500/month licence is a bit extreme.04:13
DocScrutinizer05particularly charging the app creator rather than the end user... :-/04:14
DocScrutinizer05nokia obviously doesn't get his micropayment stuff sorted04:14
DocScrutinizer05and nokia evidently is interested in FOSS less than ever04:16
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kwtm5Met someone who worked at Nokia, the other day. I asked him if the N900 had any future at Nokia.08:19
kwtm5He said there was something even better than the N900 now, and that was the N920.  Then he tried to sell me on how WinPhone8 was better, and how he actually owned a N800 and N900 and hated them, and how he likes the N920 better than his Android phone that he'd been using.08:20
kwtm5I guess each to his/her own.08:21
jrayhawkare you sure he didn't work in marketing08:59
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DocScrutinizer05wasn't that maybe Lumia 920?09:12
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jogamy friend once showed me lumia 800 (I think? or 800-something) enthusiastically but in about 30 seconds into his speech it was obvious it was just a toy12:31
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tadzikbreaking news: smartphones are (mostly) toys :)12:35
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RST38hLumia 800 is a 1:1 scale model of a smartphone12:35
RST38hIt is purely decorational and has no moving parts, so to say12:36
tadzikwhat defines a smartphone anyway? It's like a regular phone, but has installable apps?12:36
RST38hIt is a phone for which you can develop and install apps12:36
RST38hA phone that just has apps but does not let you develop and install third party ones is known as a feature phone12:37
tadzikwell, you could do that for the old nokias with Java capabilities too12:37
RST38hWP7-based phones are basically feature phones because developing apps for them is made very very difficult12:37
tadzikwikipedia says "A smartphone is a mobile phone built on a mobile operating system, with more advanced computing capability and connectivity than a feature phone"12:38
RST38hMIDP you mean?12:38
RST38hWikipedia is vague and there is a good reason12:38
tadzikI have a feeling this definitions are mostly fluid, and for a reason12:38
RST38hPeople have many different definitions of a smart phone, and Wiki used a vague definition that would satisfy everyone12:38
tadzikall the -phone prefixes are mostly marketing BS12:39
tadziksee also: ultrabook12:39
RST38hBut if you go with the most concrete definition that still staisfies most people, see my definition above12:39
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RST38hUltrabook is a marketing term, not a device class12:39
tadzikthat's my point. You see people claiming that Lumia's not a smartphone, I can't help but wonder if they're just hardcore maemo fans which hate everything nokia comes up with12:40
tadzikno offense for anyone12:40
RST38hWell, let us look at the facts12:41
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RST38hLumia does not let you use its disk as file storage12:41
tadzikto get the most similar device as a comparison, how is it worse than an iPhone?12:41
RST38hLumia does not let you run native code12:41
tadzik(ok, I'm listening)12:41
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RST38hLumia only lets you run specially written C# code and only if MSapproves your app andyou pay $99 a year to be in their store12:42
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RST38hLumia has no real video player app. It has no web browser other than IE.12:42
RST38hThe game selection is very limited (see above about native code and C#)12:42
RST38hSo, tell are you still willing to call it a smart phone?12:43
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tadzikso what you really mean is that the platform is possibly more closed than the Apple thing, which is a valid point12:44
jogaalso I think lumia doesn't allow for background network connectivity, but Ḯ'm not sure if that's still a problem with the recent models12:44
tadzikI guess I can understand that12:44
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DocScrutinizer05(smartphone) an invention of marketing droids to sell their newest embedded stuff12:49
DocScrutinizer05I for one don't give a flying F* about what marketing department tags my dream device, I got a list of capabilities and properties such dream device has to meet, and then it's "just smart enough for me"12:50
DocScrutinizer05funny example to make it more clear: a friend of mine looked at my N900, frowned, and asked me if I wouldn't finally want to get a smartphone instead12:52
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DocScrutinizer05he's been a real computer illiterate, even with windoze, so it's not been geek sarcasm12:53
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DocScrutinizer05obviously his definition of smartphone didn't meet what the N900 exposed to him12:54
jogaI was recently asked to give my opinion in a survey of qwerty smartphones for a magazine, I tried to explain why I wouldn't have any use for an iphone or such and am still waiting for something that would challenge the n90012:59
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tadzikas in "being real, open linux thing?"13:10
tadzikthat would be nice13:10
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jogatadzik yeah, and with a keyboard13:17
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tadzikoh, that's an implementation detail :)13:18
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Lava_Croftn900 is hardly 'real' linux or 'open' linux13:42
Lava_Croftbut awesome nontheless13:43
tadzikwell, it's closer than anything else I guess13:43
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amospallamaybe gnu/linux like is what you mean?13:50
amospallawith gnu like binaries, X display ...13:50
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Lava_Crofti mean more like how the n900 is ridden with closed packages13:51
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MohammadAGanother laptop battery bites the dust14:05
* ShadowJK disassembled a 8 cell laptop battery last week and found 2 good cells and 2 completely dead cells14:11
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* jonwil wishes there was something he could do for N900 :(15:44
AoyagiIs it dying or you wish you had one?15:44
jonwilI mean I wish there was something I could do code wise to benefit the N900 community15:45
jonwilbut all the ideas I have turn out to be too hard15:45
jonwilMy N900 is working just fine :)15:45
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AoyagiOh, I haven't thought of that :D15:45
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jonwilfinding something useful to do is hard15:48
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Palijonwil, you can test rewritten battery status menu applet if anything working without problem16:07
Palithis is easy, just install and look if it working...16:07
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Devilinsidedoes h-e-n allows us to use keyboard? and is that usable with easy debian?16:14
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ShadowJKi think there are some keyboard layout issues, but yes16:33
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markinfohow it works in maemo that my position upon network or GPS data was written in IM status? e.g. in Skype. I am looking for something like this on Android - but can not find anything.16:42
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Devilinsidehey!! is it possibl to use n8 otg cable for hen?16:54
Siceloyes, if you file the edges16:55
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Devilinsideand is it possibl to use keyboard with it on easy debian????!!16:57
Siceloiirc, yes. at least keyboard works in maemo.. so it should work in easy deb too16:58
Devilinsidethank you :) and do all the keys work including symbol??16:59
Siceloyes. use the easy debian thread on tmo17:03
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markinfowhat to do with my old nokia n900? Has it some value still?18:24
keriomarkinfo: idk, use it18:24
ccssnetmarkinfo: you selling it? if so how much?18:24
markinfoit is to slow. And display too small.18:25
keriowell clearly the second problem is not fixable18:25
ccssnethow much ram it have?18:25
kerioso sell it18:25
markinfoi have bought it 2 years ago for 170€18:26
kerioccssnet: 256mb18:26
kerioand yes, that's the bottleneck18:26
keriomarkinfo: what's its condition?18:26
ccssnetyea nevermind18:26
ccssnetmy cheap 60$ tablet has 512mb...18:26
kerioyour cheap 60$ tablet doesn't have apt-get18:26
ccssneteh. it can18:27
ccssnetbesides id rather compile myself18:27
markinfootherwise - after one week to working with android - maemo was better.18:27
keriomarkinfo: have you tried cssu-thumb, btw?18:27
markinfokerio, you mean that one?   i managed to save now all data - i can try to flash CSSU18:28
keriomarkinfo: no, i meant cssu-thumb18:29
keriothe CSSU spinoff that recompiles some things with a smaller instruction set and with a better compiler18:29
ccssnetcsi spinoff18:29
* ccssnet runs off18:29
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XATRIXHI guys ,how can i check in terminal (possibly with minicom) the state of my GPS device ?19:53
XATRIXI see bilink satlink icon while i start GPS software19:53
XATRIXBut it still blinking without any data received19:53
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ShadowJKThe Maps app treats gps bad19:57
ShadowJKhave gpsjinni running too19:57
ShadowJKor location-test-ui19:57
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XATRIXMaybe i do something wrong , but i only have statistic numbers scrolling on the sceen20:32
XATRIXAlso, satillites in view: 5, in use: 020:33
XATRIXAlso i receive Mobile Country Code GSM: 25520:33
XATRIXAnything i can check more ?20:33
ShadowJKstrongest signal of those sats?20:34
XATRIXWhere can  i check it ?20:35
ShadowJK"Sats" in location-test-ui20:35
ShadowJK"log win" and it stops scrolling the numbers20:35
XATRIXSatellites: 0/520:35
XATRIXWhat does mean log win ? i don't see anything related20:36
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ShadowJKWhat software are you using?20:37
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XATRIXLocation test20:38
ShadowJKso it has buttons Method, Interval  /  Start, Stop, Map, Sats / textbox with data, clear win, log win, log file20:39
ShadowJKSats shows signals20:40
XATRIXI only have Method: User Selected , Interval: Default, Start, Stop, Map20:41
XATRIXMaybe i can connect to in via minicom serial port ?20:43
ShadowJKthat's not going to help20:44
ShadowJKgpsrecord also shows satellite signal strength20:44
Siceloyou can't change Method?20:44
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XATRIXI can20:45
XATRIXI choose AGPS for now20:46
XATRIXAGNSS actually20:46
XATRIXIf i start it in room, it shows me some data20:46
XATRIXBut it doesn't change/rotate it20:46
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XATRIXWhen i go to outside, i can see it freqently changes, but it still Sats in view: 3...8 and in use:020:47
XATRIXMaybe it has to be online for a 15min for the first time ?20:47
ShadowJKYou probably wont get gps signal indoors, except if you are near a window, and can see the sky from the window, and that part of sky has gps satellites in it20:47
XATRIXYes, i know how to use GPS, and it's basics20:47
ShadowJKgpsrecord and gpsjinni would show signal strengths, I dont know why your location-test-ui does not20:48
XATRIXI test the dynamic during inside, and outside20:48
XATRIXI have no idea, will leave it for 15 min onlince over the window20:48
Siceloyes, gps can take a long time on any device20:48
XATRIXIf it's not get connected , will try jpsjinni20:49
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kerioXATRIX: do you have a network connection at the moment?20:51
ShadowJKthis is what location test looks like to me:
ShadowJKSats button shows signal strength20:51
kerioi prefer gpsrecorder, it syncs the clock to the gps time too20:51
ShadowJKNicest thing about location-test-ui is that it does what you tell it20:52
kerioShadowJK: where's location-test-ui, btw?20:52
kerioapt-cache can't find it20:52
ShadowJKprobably tools repo20:52
kerioi have that20:52
keriooh, location-test-gui20:53
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XATRIXCrap, i have the interface but without right checkboxes20:55
XATRIXJust a plain log windows20:55
ShadowJKgpsrecord shows signal too20:56
ShadowJKyou can run both20:56
XATRIXAlso, what addr are you using for AGPS server ?20:56
ShadowJKI just want to know if you're getting any signal at all20:56
XATRIXYea,i heard about this one20:56
XATRIXi have currently
XATRIXShadown, in abotu 10 minutes, if it won't lock, i will install gpsrecord20:57
XATRIXOop,s ShadowJK :)20:57 is bad21:00
XATRIXSure it is :)21:01
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XATRIXAlso, can i install mozilla firefox on N900 ?21:07
NIN102fennec... whether it's useable is a different question.21:08
kerioXATRIX: there's firefox fennec, but it's only barely usable if you install cssu thumb21:08
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XATRIXBut as long as i know, fennec isn't exactly firefox21:09
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NIN102well, everything else (e. g. iceweasel in combination) with debian seems to be more pain than gain in the end. Basically it most likely is endless sluggish and no fun to use...21:14
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XATRIXAlright, seems like the GPS is working for me now21:32
XATRIXLooks like it was a problem of outdated journal21:32
HRH_H_Crabhi, ive managed to totally trash the emmc on my n900. ive tried flashing using flasher 3.12 on snow leopard but i am having no luck whatsoever.21:33
HRH_H_Crabcan anyone offer any tips?21:33
XATRIXAlso i found a strange sit21:37
XATRIXI have disable TV out21:37
XATRIXBut as long as i connect my device via 3 wired TV cable, i still see picture of my desktop and can work with21:38
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SiceloXATRIX: where did you disable it?21:47
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SiceloHRH_H_Crab: mac has flasher 3.12? afaik we use flasher-3.5 with the N900. did you follow the steps given on the wiki? iirc if you have to flash emmc, you will also have to flash rootfs, or sth. like that21:48
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Sicelobtw, what is wrong with your emmc?21:51
XATRIXSicelo: Main menu - >System - >Settings - >TV out21:51
kerioHRH_H_Crab: you need flasher-3.521:51
kerioXATRIX: the tv out applet is somewhat faulty21:51
SiceloXATRIX: i don't have a disable there.21:51
kerioXATRIX: enable it and disable it21:51
kerioSicelo: a cssu thing21:51
XATRIX:) still have video :)21:51
kerioSicelo: flasher-3.12 is for the n921:51
Siceloheh, i'm on ccsu21:51
kerioXATRIX: weird21:51
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RzRlumia 800 vs n900 ?22:09
kerioyour url upsets me :c22:09
RzRok sorry22:10
RzRthen i will shut up22:10
kerioaww, don't be like that :(22:10
kerioit's almost perfect!22:10
kerioexcept for the fact that it's spam22:10
kerioand that you're better off selling the lumia on ebay and buying two n900s22:10
RzRasked today how the pawnshop will take it22:11
keriothat's why i said sell on ebay :)22:11
RzRthat's the price of used n90022:11
RzRfound one currently on sale on ebay22:12
RzR175 eur now22:13
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XATRIXAlso how can i check my proximity sensor22:33
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