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| freemangordon | XATRIX: ctrl-a | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| XATRIX | yea | 00:06 |
| XATRIX | already found it | 00:06 |
| freemangordon | you've been told this is almost like desktop distribution, ain't? | 00:06 |
| freemangordon | :P | 00:06 |
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| XATRIX | Not actually :) | 00:11 |
| XATRIX | OK..see you guys, good night! | 00:12 |
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| FIQ | so how do I turn off HAM update notifications? | 01:51 |
| FIQ | or, "turn off" | 01:51 |
| FIQ | aka "set check-update something high" | 01:52 |
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| Lava_Croft | http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Disabling_Auto_Updates_Check | 02:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Apple's really obsessed with advertising features they and everybody else have had forever as new, genius inventions. | 03:13 |
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| internetishard | Is it possible my n900 can't get 3G with any carrier in the bay area?! | 05:10 |
| internetishard | I switched to another that promises HSPA+, and now I'm assuming that all HSPA+ is on a different frequency than 1900mhz... | 05:11 |
| internetishard | Any ideas? | 05:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | internetishard: N900 supports several UMTS frequencies, but some US carriers abuse GSM/2G bands for UMTS and that's beyond what N900 BB5 can handle | 07:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | typically those carriers have no 2G service either, so they are completely incompatible to N900 | 07:40 |
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| Sc0rpius | N900 ONLY support 900 and 2100 in UMTS. | 07:55 |
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| Sc0rpius | that makes the N900 totally unusable in most countries except Europe | 07:55 |
| ds3 | works fine in the US | 07:57 |
| Sc0rpius | with T-Mobile only | 07:57 |
| Sc0rpius | (we're talking 3G by the way) | 07:57 |
| Sc0rpius | in this side of the world 3G (UMTS) frequencies are either 850, 1800 or 1900 MHz | 07:57 |
| Sc0rpius | and N900 3G is 900/2100. | 07:57 |
| ds3 | TMO is all that matters | 07:57 |
| Sc0rpius | :) | 07:58 |
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| ds3 | I will not do business with that orange abomination in the US | 08:01 |
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| ds3 | bastards try to send me a bill like 6months after I canceled (within the first week) for usage 5 months later...wtf | 08:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: WCDMA Band I (2100) WCDMA Band IV (1700/2100) WCDMA Band VIII (900) | 08:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^N900 | 08:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: and "your side of the world" 850 and 1900 are originally defined as GSM frequencies | 08:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | carriers that use those bands for UMTS are basicaly violating international agreements | 08:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/Device_specifications/N900/ and http://mitglied.multimania.de/bauersebi/BOS-Funk/Funkdienste/Bandplan2GHz.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands#The_Americas | 08:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_frequencies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands | 08:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | don't blame Nokia for protectionist politics/policies of USA - they always prefer to run their own standards incompatible to the rest of the world, probably to protect their markets | 08:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: also it's not "rest of the world, except Europe" that disobeys those standards. Rather it's basically just "the americas" that are such a mess, while "rest of the world" has no such problems | 08:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | get it, USA is third world regarding mobile phones | 08:30 |
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| Corsac | grbml, smartsearch using 100% cpu | 08:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | "smart" rulez | 08:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | continuing to idly mude about band allocation for mobile services, I notice that 900/1800 is a sane technically based decision (1. harmonic falls into upper band), while USA opted for a totally weird 850/1900 and "justified" that by "military use of 900" iirc. They never where short of lame excuses for their protectionist politics | 09:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/mide/muse/. | 09:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | >>GSM-850 and GSM-1900 are used in Argentina, Brazil, Canada, the United States and many other countries in the Americas.<< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands | 09:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [while GSM900/1800 is used in the sane rest of the world, so this 'cinflict' is as old as GSM] | 09:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the extremely funny part in all this: obviously UMTS on 850/1900 does NOT conflict with "military use" of same bands in USA | 09:14 |
| * RST38h is sure it is a conspiracy | 09:15 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it however conveniently conflicts with GSM use of same bands in rest of the world | 09:15 |
| RST38h | BTW, apparently they turned GSM off in the US | 09:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | RST38h: don't get me started | 09:15 |
| RST38h | At least, GSM phones no longer work | 09:16 |
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| kerio | the american mobile phone situation is the product of free market | 09:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 09:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | prototypically shows that free market tends to pervert, since it's driven solely by short term economic interest | 09:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so why use 900/1800 and allow cheap chinese mobile phones, when you can opt for 850/1900 and sell your own special proprietary phones for several times more money | 09:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | forget about global roaming, 99% of US citizens not even know there's land behind the huge waters starting at the US coasts | 09:24 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: comeon, that's not true, they are very well aware where they came from :P | 09:25 |
| kerio | afaik you can't even legally use your own phone on US mobile networks | 09:26 |
| kerio | or something | 09:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I bet they think Russia is North of Canada, and Europe and Asia are part of that, and Africa an island south-east of europe russian province | 09:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, got my sarcasm day it seems. Take it easy, my US resident friends ;-) | 09:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: afaik that's only true for Japan and Korea | 09:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there might be other countries with similar policies (only registered approved IMEI allowed to log in), but USA definitely isn't one of them | 09:33 |
| kerio | hm, i definetely remember something like that for the US, though | 09:34 |
| kerio | perhaps it was landlines | 09:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | such policy isn't feasible in countries with 2000 small carrier supply areas like in USA | 09:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands#Multi-band_and_multi-mode_phones is quite enlightening | 09:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably reding a lot of boring reports about ITU and 3GPP meetings, and see how many US-based carries DGAF, might also shed some light on the issue | 09:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | reeding* | 09:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_for_Telecommunications_Industry_Solutions (US member of ITU and 3GPP) >>In the United States, ATIS competes with a number of other network equipment standards developers, including IEEE and the Telecommunications Industry Association.<< | 09:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's free market for you | 09:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: (landlines) for sure not, since historically all the "free" landline terminal equipment like phones, TAM, FAX, modem, all came or were targeted at US market mainly | 10:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | came from* | 10:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | RJ11 is an american invention I'd think | 10:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RJ11#History_and_authority | 10:14 |
| kerio | oic | 10:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>Bell System owned the phones and did not allow interconnection of separate phones or other terminal equipment<< >>This began to change with the case Hush-A-Phone v. United States [1956] and the FCC's Carterfone [1968] decision...<< | 10:16 |
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| Devilinside | hey , need deb of skype for n900 | 11:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not sure it's available as .deb | 12:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg | 12:16 |
| infobot | pkg is, like, http://maemo.org/packages/ | 12:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe http://maemo.org/packages/view/skyhost-bin/ and http://maemo.org/packages/view/skyhost-vengine/, in addition to all those pkgs showing up under searchterm "skype" in pkg interface | 12:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Devilinside: ^^^ | 12:24 |
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| Devilinside | ovi repo isn working here. yeah, i found those two packages. | 12:45 |
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| Devilinside | skype is avaolable on ovi, but it usually doesnt work. | 12:45 |
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| Devilinside | those two packages are already the nwest version. | 12:49 |
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| brzys | hey, is there deb of netcat? i was looking in extras,testing and devel but no luck | 12:51 |
| tadzik | get nmap, there's also ncat inside | 12:53 |
| brzys | thanks tadzik, i have it already installed, just figured sec that is ncat <facepalm> | 12:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | netcat vs ncat driving me nuts every once in a while | 12:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I usually mv ncat netcat | 12:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nc another one | 13:00 |
| brzys | prefer nc, less to type :) | 13:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | alas iirc that's ambiguous | 13:01 |
| tadzik | nc, mc, dc, bc... | 13:02 |
| tadzik | wc | 13:02 |
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| Devilinside | thnx its done :) | 13:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Devilinside: it worked? | 13:36 |
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| Devilinside | yup | 13:43 |
| Devilinside | yup | 13:46 |
| Devilinside | thnx.. :) | 13:46 |
| MohammadAG | Bah, i need an OTG cable for the Galaxy S3 :/ | 13:48 |
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| teotwaki | http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/(Situation)-(location)-has-been-cleared.aspx#Pic-3 | 14:07 |
| teotwaki | There's just so much win in that picture! | 14:08 |
| teotwaki | "My Beethoven playlist on Pandora picked a song from Braveheart, on a Star Trek album, with Titanic album art. Where is this CD and how do I get it?" | 14:08 |
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| ShadowJK | a song from braveheart in star trek? | 14:37 |
| ShadowJK | must be from Insurrection | 14:37 |
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| ShadowJK | oh, khan | 14:38 |
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| kerio | dammit, why can't the skype plugin be removed easily? | 14:53 |
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| MohammadAG | kerio, delete file list, keep deb, dpkg happy | 14:55 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: no u | 14:55 |
| kerio | dpkg is the law | 14:55 |
| kerio | hm, apparently the problem is skype-ui-l10n-* | 14:55 |
| kerio | wtf, why does rtcom-accounts-ui depend on that? | 14:56 |
| MohammadAG | cause maemo deps are fucked up? | 14:56 |
| MohammadAG | or they packed a library in the language files | 14:56 |
| kerio | usually dependencies like that are actually legit | 14:56 |
| MohammadAG | whichever seems funnier | 14:56 |
| kerio | i guess it's something stupid like using a localized string in skype-ui-l10n-mr0 | 14:56 |
| MohammadAG | hmm | 14:56 |
| MohammadAG | well, most probably | 14:57 |
| kerio | oh well, i just need to leave the localization there i guess | 14:57 |
| kerio | everything else gets removed fine | 14:58 |
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| Pali | DocScrutinizer05, hi, did you tried to backup nolo, kernel & rootfs to one fiasco file via 0xFFFF? | 15:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope | 15:11 |
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| kerio | Pali: that kind of backup would be useless | 15:12 |
| kerio | you need the exact optfs too | 15:12 |
| Pali | kerio, ok, so tar -czf opt.tag.gz /opt/ do that job? | 15:13 |
| kerio | yes, but the problem is in restoring that :) | 15:13 |
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| Pali | kerio, maybe creating some kernel image with initfs image which will export mmc via usb... | 15:14 |
| MohammadAG | We need something like Android's recovery | 15:14 |
| kerio | Pali: rescueOS :) | 15:14 |
| kerio | or at least, something built upon rescueOS | 15:14 |
| Pali | kerio, one option | 15:14 |
| MohammadAG | didn't we have a hidden partition at some poitn? | 15:14 |
| kerio | but at that point you don't really need to make fiasco images | 15:14 |
| MohammadAG | or am I mixing up devices | 15:15 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: we do have initfs, actually | 15:15 |
| kerio | it's kinda small afaik | 15:15 |
| MohammadAG | how small? | 15:15 |
| kerio | hold on, checking | 15:15 |
| Pali | we can send initfs image via flasher or 0xFFFF | 15:15 |
| Pali | 2 or 4 MB | 15:15 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: same as kernel | 15:15 |
| Pali | is initfs partition | 15:15 |
| Pali | if same as kernel then 2MB | 15:15 |
| kerio | 2mb | 15:15 |
| kerio | hm, it's not a lot | 15:15 |
| MohammadAG | actually, it kind of is | 15:16 |
| MohammadAG | it'd hold the bare minimum | 15:16 |
| kerio | the rescueOS initrd is 12mb | 15:16 |
| kerio | ubooted | 15:16 |
| Pali | better to use flasher/0xFFFF to send own kernel with own initfs without flashing | 15:16 |
| MohammadAG | rescueOS isn't bare minimum then :P | 15:16 |
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| kerio | MohammadAG: it's enough to get a fbcon shell | 15:17 |
| kerio | usb mass storage, usb networking | 15:17 |
| kerio | wifi (if you load the firmware from somewhere) | 15:17 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: the current on-device restore still requires a working *something* | 15:17 |
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| kerio | uboot + sd is enough to load rescueOS | 15:18 |
| kerio | which is enough for everything | 15:18 |
| MohammadAG | what you'd need is working microSD, which is provided by kernel, and tar | 15:18 |
| MohammadAG | plus a scripted UI | 15:18 |
| kerio | so you'd need xloader+nolo+uboot | 15:18 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: aka a "standalone" version of backupmenu | 15:18 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: you also need a way to boot it, though | 15:19 |
| MohammadAG | kerio, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7-HqCbTanQM#t=59s | 15:20 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: how much can be wrecked and still get that to function? | 15:20 |
| MohammadAG | well, you need a working bootloader | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | and a kernel | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | but that's about it | 15:21 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: because backupmenu doesn't require a lot | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | but those devices have recovery partitions larger than 2MB | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | lemme check how much the S3 has | 15:21 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: the n900 has up to 64gb of storage | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | mtd blocks, not so much | 15:22 |
| kerio | the emmc is always there | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | I'm talking about something that could run without any external storage | 15:22 |
| kerio | ok then, 32gb | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | that's external :p | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | go back to the OneNAND | 15:22 |
| kerio | it's an EMBEDDED memory card | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | still, it's user data | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | you could break something when partitioning it | 15:22 |
| kerio | not /home :) | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | 5MBs | 15:23 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: i bet that you can't fit a pseudographical restore system in 2mb | 15:23 |
| MohammadAG | for an advanced touch recovery | 15:23 |
| kerio | also, where are you going to backup/restore? | 15:23 |
| kerio | if it's a sd, then just require something to be put there, ffs | 15:23 |
| MohammadAG | that's where you could mount the 32GB | 15:23 |
| MohammadAG | like MyDocs | 15:24 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: if mydocs is hosed, you want to repartition it, reformat it, and restore from usd | 15:24 |
| kerio | and now you also need fdisk, mkfs.vfat and mkfs.ext3 | 15:24 |
| MohammadAG | hmm, didn't think of that | 15:25 |
| MohammadAG | CWM recovery just formats, then unpacks an .img | 15:25 |
| kerio | that's what backupmenu does for /home | 15:26 |
| kerio | it does a rm -rf and an unpack for rootfs, because ubifs is tough as fuck | 15:27 |
| kerio | and because nobody understands how to fix it | 15:27 |
| kerio | actually no, it's because to load backupmenu you need rootfs to be at least partially working, and that includes not being fucked up | 15:27 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; hey have you seen some people "fixing" cellmo issue by adding spring to push down cellmo chips? | 15:29 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; http://www.jabawok.net/?p=14 | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: nope, that's news to me | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wow, awesome! | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bookmarked | 15:36 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: so the issue is really a bad soldering | 15:36 |
| kerio | it's not that some batches have defective chips | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, that's already expected | 15:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though it *could* as well be poor bonding combined with poor sealing of the BGA balls | 15:37 |
| kerio | btw, won't pushing on the chip eventually cause it to fail? | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but incomplete soldering under BGA chips is far form being unheard | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: shouldn't | 15:38 |
| kerio | especially if, for instance, you drop your n900 on the ground | 15:38 |
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| ShadowJK | nvidia had some issues with some of their chips | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the chip's sealing shouldn't be plastically deformable | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's supposed to be ceramic material that doesn't permanently deform | 15:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | btw this extremely hard case material of the chips creates a lot of the problems seen during reflow and when dropping the final product thus bending the PCB | 15:42 |
| kerio | i see | 15:42 |
| kerio | can't we make everything out of that material? :3 | 15:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, I think there are PCB made of ceramic | 15:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but probably that would just crack into pieces when you drop the device | 15:43 |
| kerio | hm | 15:44 |
| kerio | do you want your device to be flexible then? | 15:44 |
| kerio | it could deform if you make it too flexible | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I actually just a minute ago started thinking about chips with spring loaded BGA soldering balls | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which could mitigate a lot of those problems | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 0.1mm bearing play up/down and sideways was already sufficient I guess | 15:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | of course building those microsprings into the PCB pads and not soldering the chip at all but simply pressing it on the pads could also work quite nicely | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably you'd want gold plated BGA balls on the chip for that | 15:50 |
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| * kerio is happy of studying math instead of EE | 15:50 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehehe | 15:50 |
| kerio | this real world things seem really tough! | 15:51 |
| teotwaki | by the way | 15:51 |
| teotwaki | what's the usb-connector fix? | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed that's exactly the notion I detected on a lot of programmers coming from the math side as well | 15:51 |
| teotwaki | Is it fixable? | 15:51 |
| kerio | teotwaki: "kinda" | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | teotwaki: hmm? | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~usbfix | 15:52 |
| infobot | from memory, usbfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater) | 15:52 |
| kerio | the better you are at soldering, the greater the damage you can fix | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or what? | 15:52 |
| ShadowJK | I haven't had a single usb port fail, it might be due to how I unplug | 15:52 |
| teotwaki | My N900, currently in use by my girlfriend, has been showing "charging" a lot, sometimes. | 15:52 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: the math side has different problems :3 | 15:52 |
| kerio | teotwaki: huh? | 15:52 |
| kerio | oh, it thinks it's charging?= | 15:52 |
| teotwaki | not really | 15:52 |
| kerio | does the physical connector work? | 15:52 |
| teotwaki | when it's plugged in | 15:53 |
| kerio | oh :( | 15:53 |
| teotwaki | there seems to be a bad connection | 15:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | either plug or receptacle or soldering of the latter | 15:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or your PSU is defect ;-D | 15:54 |
| ShadowJK | or wire, my first car charger's wire got bad | 15:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or cable broken | 15:54 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 highfives ShadowJK | 15:54 | |
| teotwaki | hmm | 15:59 |
| teotwaki | will check it out | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | teotwaki: first test a new/different charger, or simply PC | 15:59 |
| teotwaki | yeah, will use the heavy duty Palm charger. | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if it still fails in same way, see | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~usbfix | 16:00 |
| infobot | somebody said usbfix was http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater) | 16:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | but also check the USB receptacle's contacts, sometimes they get bent or corroded or simply dirty | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's not unusual that a defect USB plug destroys the receptacle's contacts | 16:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or some debris got into the receptacle | 16:02 |
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| ShadowJK | I almost did that the other day | 16:07 |
| ShadowJK | but spotted the crapp in n900 usb port in last second | 16:07 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 wonders to which temperature you'd need to pre-heat the complete N900 PCB so you could successfully reflow the BB5 chips with hot air | 16:15 | |
| ShadowJK | heh | 16:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | probably finding out about the reflow temperature profile used in N900 PCB assembly would be rather useful for that | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | friggin reflow is kinda voodoo magic | 16:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | evidence: Nokia failed on several BB5 chips when doing reflow | 16:19 |
| ShadowJK | are the boards moved through ovens with different temperaures? | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, usually | 16:19 |
| ShadowJK | do these have airflow too? | 16:19 |
| ShadowJK | or still air | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | several minutes pre-heat, then ramp up to max during 30s, keep it at max for 10s, ramp down to chillout temp and keep it there for another minute, then slowly cool down | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually IR and still air | 16:20 |
| ShadowJK | hm | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or very smooth airflow | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on top of IR | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly I don't know much about rwflow | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's an own art | 16:21 |
| ShadowJK | the concept of temperature in presence of IR seems daunting to me | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, in every environment you got air- and radiation-temperature | 16:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the trick with reflow is to balance the two | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and to have a proper profile | 16:23 |
| ShadowJK | is the temperature profile supposed to represent air temperature or actual temperature of some board component.. | 16:24 |
| SpeedEvil | vapour phase reflow has also been used, and has some advantages | 16:24 |
| SpeedEvil | bit is uncommon | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.nxp.com/wcm_documents/about/corporate-social-responsibility/environment/lead-free-halogen-free/images/diagram.gif | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.nxp.com/about/corporate-social-responsibility/environment/lead-free-halogen-free/understanding.html | 16:26 |
| SpeedEvil | no mention of tin whisker | 16:27 |
| SpeedEvil | seen: http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/anecdote/af114-transistor/index.html ? | 16:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: >>Note: All temperatures refer to topside of the package, measured on the package body surface<< | 16:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | SpeedEvil: dafaq! tin whiskers :-o | 16:32 |
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| SpeedEvil | http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/anecdote/2009busbar/index.html | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this friggin germanium transistor looks strangely familiar to me, even inside ;-D | 16:33 |
| SpeedEvil | is fun too | 16:33 |
| SpeedEvil | it's not just a small signal problem | 16:33 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; hm, so when usin IR, the board temp would be different depending on the board mask color, even if top of package temp was same? :-) | 16:34 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: well, yes and no. | 16:34 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: colour is far IR colour | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: that's the magic | 16:35 |
| ShadowJK | right | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: most organic materials have emissivities close to 1 | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | in the far IR | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | to the point that making low emissivity paints is really hard | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in one factory I visited a reflow street, and they had those test objects there, with sophisticated temperature sensors of all kinds on the board | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really experienced guys tune the oven for half a day, so results obtained with such test objects were inside the defined profile | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the factors that influende such tuning are even such things like "shadowing" by shielding blades on the board etc | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course board thickness and other board properties (copper ground planes etc), chips' size, whatnot else | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and when you've tuned the oven with those test objects, you run a number of sample boards, then check the soldering with xray etc, then do some finetuning of the profile | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | run another number of samples... rinse, restart | 16:42 |
| ShadowJK | The supplier of dies at $work switched to a surface finish with low emissivity and high reflectivity, had been totally opposite before. We usually use IR sensors to check whether thermocouples are still giving reasonably OK readings or not. It was kinda confusing at first before we realized what was going on. | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe | 16:42 |
| SpeedEvil | IR is amusing | 16:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | for the accuracy *inside* the die it's for sure better when they have reflective surface | 16:43 |
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| SpeedEvil | take a kettle, place a sheet of aluminium foil over it, and boil it. | 16:44 |
| ShadowJK | Switched/switching to pt100, nicer stability over time, and failure modes are nicer | 16:44 |
| SpeedEvil | point ir at sheet, measure temp of ceiling | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 16:44 |
| SpeedEvil | spray with a tiny coat of oil - 100c | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 16:45 |
| ShadowJK | :-) | 16:45 |
| SpeedEvil | I want to make a IR thermometer good for measuring the temp of single BGAs balls. | 16:45 |
| SpeedEvil | this is hard. | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ouch | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems terribly hard | 16:46 |
| SpeedEvil | as part of a longer term project to do laser dead bug soldering | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 16:46 |
| SpeedEvil | muktilayer PCBs are expensive | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how would you even *look* at a BGA ball that's supposed to be/get soldered to a pad? | 16:47 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm wondering on alternatives | 16:47 |
| SpeedEvil | dead bug | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nfc | 16:47 |
| SpeedEvil | apply tinned 0.1mm wire to surface of ball, straight down. hit with laser to melt the ball, and feed wire in. | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 16:49 |
| SpeedEvil | ideally it ends up with a nice solder joint, with the enamel remaining almost until it goes into the ball | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yup | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but what you gonna do with a chip with wires all over it? | 16:50 |
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| SpeedEvil | automatic point to point wiring | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | YAY | 16:51 |
| SpeedEvil | it's 1940 again :-) | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PCB making roof-down :-) | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like a nice alternative concept | 16:52 |
| SpeedEvil | if it works, then 20 wires per minute is fairly plausible. | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | glue all the components to a board upside down, then wire the while mess | 16:53 |
| SpeedEvil | and though that's not a really great production technique... | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whole* | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, it sounds great regarding some aspects | 16:53 |
| SpeedEvil | there are major issues | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it's missing one extremely important detail: shielding/heatsinks | 16:54 |
| SpeedEvil | impedence control is 'interesting' | 16:54 |
| SpeedEvil | and that. | 16:54 |
| SpeedEvil | potting in thermal compound against a plate goes some way. | 16:55 |
| SpeedEvil | but has its own issues | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, on BGA the balls are also thermal vias | 16:56 |
| SpeedEvil | I mean potting the wiring side | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while thermal resistance to top of case is undefined and usually poor | 16:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah | 16:57 |
| SpeedEvil | it's never going to be a good replacement generally. | 16:58 |
| SpeedEvil | could it be useful - perhaps | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, for certain usecases it is for sure a good rapid design alternative | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | signal separation though is a nightmare | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | crosstalk rather | 16:59 |
| SpeedEvil | very much | 16:59 |
| SpeedEvil | one very silly idea I had. | 17:00 |
| SpeedEvil | conformal coat it. | 17:00 |
| SpeedEvil | fill with low melt solder | 17:00 |
| SpeedEvil | in practice, likely not to work due to thermal expansion | 17:00 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 waves | 17:03 | |
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| lnxmen | Hi | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 180min til meeting, need to get some shopping etc done | 17:03 |
| lnxmen | I have some problems with /usr/sbin/browserd - it's eating my cpu -,- | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hah | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | killall browserd | 17:04 |
| lnxmen | Doesn't work | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | have fun | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, bbl | 17:05 |
| SpeedEvil | :-) | 17:05 |
| lnxmen | DocScrutinizer05: the process is starting anew itself | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 17:05 |
| ShadowJK | It renders browser stuff, and also Conversations | 17:07 |
| lnxmen | Is any way to kill it? | 17:07 |
| lnxmen | permanently* | 17:07 |
| tadzik | you realize that it would make Conversations stop working? | 17:08 |
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| lnxmen | okay, I wouldn't want to stop Conversations | 17:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | a) find out which of the several browserd processes eats CPU, b) find out what it's doing, c) fix the source of the problem | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 1697 ? Ssl 0:00 /usr/sbin/browserd -d | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2177 ? Sl 0:03 \_ /usr/sbin/browserd -s 2177 -n browserui | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 9487 ? Sl 0:04 \_ /usr/sbin/browserd -s 9487 -n RTComMessagingServer | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | strace is your friend | 17:14 |
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| kerio | guys, what do you use to block ads? | 18:25 |
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| kerio | iDont: 'lo | 20:39 |
| iDont | kerio, hi! | 20:40 |
| iDont | it's Friday :) | 20:40 |
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| fastlane` | 4 minutes to saturday here | 20:59 |
| Cor-Ai | sux! got 4 hours! | 21:00 |
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| Aoyagi | http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/12/richard-stallman-calls-ubuntu-spyware-because-it-tracks-searches/ | 21:57 |
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| kerio | Aoyagi: clearly, that means that you must buy a n900 really quickly | 22:09 |
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| Aoyagi | kerio: I'm working on fixing mistake of not having one yet as fast as I can. | 22:12 |
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| kerio | i wonder if i should install the actual flashblock and drop this silly css adblocker for microb | 22:12 |
| kerio | and maybe add some adblocking to the hosts file | 22:13 |
| Aoyagi | Which reminds me | 22:13 |
| Aoyagi | Any idea what version of Opera run on N900? | 22:14 |
| kerio | opera mobile 12 | 22:14 |
| kerio | which is a surprisingly competent mobile browser | 22:14 |
| Aoyagi | Very. | 22:14 |
| Aoyagi | And great. | 22:14 |
| kerio | about as capable as opera mini on a s60 phone, but also very, very light | 22:15 |
| Aoyagi | Well, Mini is lesser version. | 22:15 |
| Aoyagi | Java or something. | 22:16 |
| kerio | opera mobile only adds local rendering, pretty much | 22:16 |
| Aoyagi | And some options. | 22:16 |
| kerio | it's a "lo-fi" browser | 22:16 |
| kerio | well ofc | 22:16 |
| kerio | mind you, opera mini was godly | 22:16 |
| Aoyagi | It's in Java :S | 22:17 |
| kerio | have you ever used it on a fast s60 nokia phone? | 22:17 |
| Aoyagi | I have both mobile and mini on N95. | 22:17 |
| kerio | n95, 6120c or greater | 22:17 |
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| Aoyagi | as well as N97, but I don't consider N97 a fast phone. | 22:17 |
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| vi_ | do you think dnsmasq adblock would be heavier than hostsfile? | 22:18 |
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| kerio | vi_: i'm not sure, is /etc/hosts read on every gethostbyname? | 22:19 |
| vi_ | I imagine it must be. | 22:19 |
| kerio | then maybe a dnsmasq configuration could be lighter | 22:19 |
| vi_ | A good hosts block file seems to weigh in at ~500K | 22:19 |
| vi_ | A good hosts block file seems to weigh in at ~500kB | 22:20 |
| Corsac | http://paste.debian.net/214987/ | 22:20 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: opera mobile on the n900 even has a way to enable single-column rendering | 22:20 |
| vi_ | Corsac: what is that? | 22:20 |
| Corsac | (on a std linux desktop) | 22:20 |
| kerio | Corsac: ty | 22:20 |
| vi_ | what is it? | 22:20 |
| Aoyagi | kerio: I'm pretty sure that option has been in it ever since :/ | 22:20 |
| Corsac | vi_: strace of a getaddrinfo() | 22:21 |
| Corsac | (more or less) | 22:21 |
| vi_ | ty | 22:21 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: it's *good* if the page is simple | 22:21 |
| Aoyagi | O ye. | 22:21 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: anyway, microb is teh shit | 22:21 |
| kerio | and it's preinstalled | 22:21 |
| * Aoyagi consults the internet | 22:21 | |
| vi_ | kerio: it is getting OOLLLDDD. | 22:21 |
| Aoyagi | Well | 22:21 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: gecko-based preinstalled browser | 22:22 |
| vi_ | old render engine. | 22:22 |
| Aoyagi | I'm an Opera person. | 22:22 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: oh, you're one of *those* | 22:22 |
| vi_ | no html 5. | 22:22 |
| Aoyagi | >.> | 22:22 |
| vi_ | if only there was a way to update the backend. | 22:23 |
| kerio | vi_: technically it's all open source | 22:23 |
| vi_ | lolwut. | 22:23 |
| Aoyagi | It's either Opera or FF and frankly, Opera usually has the ideas sooner, plus it has in-built e-mail and IRC clients, both extremely lightweight. :D | 22:23 |
| kerio | vi_: it's gecko! | 22:23 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: it's also closed-source | 22:23 |
| vi_ | aoy | 22:23 |
| vi_ | Aoyagi: yes, but the email and irc clients suck. | 22:24 |
| Aoyagi | kerio: I'm OK with that when it comes to these three things. Dunno what else would I want with them :D | 22:24 |
| vi_ | also, it totally chokes on some pages so you have to revert to FF. | 22:24 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: well, the bestest IRC client on the n900 is xchat | 22:25 |
| vi_ | irssi | 22:25 |
| kerio | the "adaptation" is done really competently | 22:25 |
| kerio | vi_: osso-xterm is a piece of crap | 22:25 |
| Aoyagi | What do you mean suck? ^^ | 22:25 |
| kerio | which terminal do you use? | 22:25 |
| vi_ | osso | 22:25 |
| Aoyagi | kerio: Yeah, I'll probably go with xchat. | 22:25 |
| vi_ | I tried to use mrxvt but I cannot change the font size. | 22:25 |
| kerio | vi_: but osso-xterm sucks, how can you irssi from it? | 22:26 |
| kerio | :s | 22:26 |
| vi_ | eh? | 22:26 |
| vi_ | quite easily. | 22:26 |
| vi_ | The only thing osso lacks is middle click paste. | 22:26 |
| kerio | url opening | 22:26 |
| vi_ | and 80x24 mode. | 22:26 |
| vi_ | eh? | 22:26 |
| kerio | click on a URL to open it | 22:27 |
| vi_ | osso DOES open URLS | 22:27 |
| kerio | wat | 22:27 |
| kerio | really? :O | 22:27 |
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| vi_ | click on an url and you are presented 2 choices. | 22:27 |
| vi_ | browser or copy | 22:27 |
| ds3 | possible a stupid question - is it possible to initiate a video session from the N900 (using Jingle/XMPP) to an existing jabber contact? | 22:27 |
| kerio | ds3: not with the default software, afaik | 22:27 |
| kerio | ds3: installing a client... sure, why not? | 22:28 |
| vi_ | ds3: | 22:28 |
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| ds3 | kerio: ah... I know i can receive it | 22:28 |
| ds3 | which clients will let me do that? | 22:28 |
| vi_ | ds3: what do you mean video session? | 22:28 |
| vi_ | videocall? | 22:28 |
| ds3 | vi_: yes, video call | 22:28 |
| ds3 | or voice | 22:28 |
| vi_ | google talk | 22:28 |
| vi_ | skype | 22:28 |
| ds3 | GTalk I guess | 22:28 |
| vi_ | google talk is xmpp | 22:28 |
| vi_ | kind of. | 22:28 |
| ds3 | but that is suppose to be just another Jingle/XMPP setup | 22:28 |
| kerio | ds3: maybe you can configure a gtalk account and change the server to your liking? idk | 22:29 |
| kerio | anyway, any linux client *should* work fine, once compiled | 22:29 |
| ds3 | kerio: I have just a normal jabber account. I have received video calls from people on gtalk | 22:30 |
| ds3 | trying to see if I can initiate it | 22:30 |
| kerio | ds3: on the n900? :o | 22:30 |
| vi_ | he wants a conversations plugin though. | 22:30 |
| ds3 | yes, on the N900 | 22:30 |
| kerio | with the builtin software? :O :O :O | 22:31 |
| kerio | i never knew it was a thing | 22:31 |
| ds3 | yes | 22:31 |
| kerio | vi_: what the fuck, why didn't anyone tell me | 22:31 |
| ds3 | I was surprised that it worked | 22:31 |
| Aoyagi | kerio: And that exactly is why I'm most likely going to love the phone. | 22:31 |
| kerio | Aoyagi: because i didn't know it supported gtalk video calls? | 22:32 |
| vi_ | wait. what. | 22:32 |
| vi_ | jabber can talk to gtalk? | 22:32 |
| kerio | gtalk is jabber | 22:32 |
| Aoyagi | Because you've had it for {time of ownership} years and haven't learned it until now. | 22:32 |
| ds3 | yes | 22:32 |
| kerio | fairly standard, too | 22:32 |
| vi_ | wtf is going on? | 22:32 |
| ds3 | gtalk is just another federated jabber setup | 22:32 |
| vi_ | and jabber is xmpp? | 22:33 |
| kerio | i never understood the difference actually | 22:33 |
| kerio | jabber is like IM on top of XMPP | 22:33 |
| ds3 | yes, jabber is xmpp | 22:33 |
| vi_ | so I can video call my jabber buddies? | 22:34 |
| vi_ | too bad I do not have a jabber account... | 22:34 |
| vi_ | ...or any buddies :( | 22:34 |
| ds3 | create one | 22:35 |
| ds3 | jabber accounts are free | 22:35 |
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| kerio | vi_: i'll be your buddy, buddy | 22:35 |
| kerio | i need a jabber account though | 22:35 |
| kerio | ds3: don't you also need server support for voice/video? | 22:36 |
| kerio | what the hell, why is my battery drained all of a sudden | 22:37 |
| kerio | why did i have 162 wakeups/second? | 22:37 |
| ds3 | kerio: I am not clear... some suggests it doesn't | 22:37 |
| ds3 | it is the jingle extension | 22:37 |
| ds3 | might be like a CTCP in IRC | 22:37 |
| ds3 | time for a new battery? | 22:38 |
| kerio | ds3: nah, high power consumption | 22:38 |
| kerio | for some reason | 22:38 |
| ds3 | something doing a while(1);? | 22:38 |
| kerio | nah, it's not cpu usage per se | 22:38 |
| kerio | it's wakeups | 22:39 |
| ds3 | oh | 22:39 |
| kerio | Pali: i bet it's your applet's fault! | 22:40 |
| Pali | what? | 22:40 |
| kerio | well, you *are* running a huge part of my phone actually :) | 22:41 |
| kerio | so it's probably your fault, just by random chance | 22:41 |
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| kerio | i've got your kernel, your charging system, your battery applet, and a bunch of stuff from CSSU | 22:42 |
| kerio | it's either yours, fmg's, or nokia's fault | 22:42 |
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| Pali | and what is the problem? | 22:43 |
| kerio | lots of wakeups drained my battery a bit | 22:44 |
| kerio | not sure why, powertop says nothing | 22:44 |
| kerio | meh, i don't really get it | 22:45 |
| kerio | now the situation is back to normal | 22:45 |
| kerio | ooh, i bet it's luf's bluez | 22:45 |
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| kerio | ds3: reading on TMO (talk.maemo.org, the maemo forum) that it seems that the video call can only be initiated from a different client :( | 22:46 |
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| vi_ | kerio: if you go to this link: | 22:50 |
| vi_ | http://mail.google.com/mail/x/gdlakb-/gp/?shva=1 | 22:50 |
| vi_ | you will get the gmail touch interfae. | 22:51 |
| vi_ | you will get the gmail touch interface. | 22:51 |
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| Aoyagi | I'd never thing you guys would use gmail :3 | 22:53 |
| kerio | i do | 22:54 |
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| Aoyagi | Bleh, firefox's config is horrible :S | 23:00 |
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| Hurrian | Pali: have you found the IRC logs? | 23:42 |
| Pali | I did not tried to find them yet | 23:43 |
| Pali | Hurrian, now writing/patching arch netcfg bash scripts... I'm going to remove NetworkManager from my disk... | 23:43 |
| Hurrian | Pali, too much bloat? | 23:44 |
| Hurrian | Oh, and why not simply "systemctl enable dhcpcd@eth0.service"? | 23:44 |
| Pali | because I need 8021X on ethernet | 23:45 |
| Pali | and I need something which can autoconnect to normal ethernet network & also to configured 8021x auth | 23:46 |
| Hurrian | ah, authentication. | 23:46 |
| Pali | and I also want something which can connect to available wifi networks automatically | 23:47 |
| Pali | and some modular system where I can create new module for some new connection type | 23:47 |
| Pali | (e.g. hostapd for wifi ap) | 23:47 |
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| Pali | and next missing feature is something for switching default route with dns servers... | 23:48 |
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