IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2012-11-02

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entitledseems like wannsee-electronic, german vendor on ebay is selling counterfeit polarcell batteries01:13
entitledmine died after few weeks01:13
entitleddidn't deliver the promised mA01:14
entitledand seems like explained all the erratic behaviour with my n90001:14
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entitled99.9% positive feedback, but every negative or neutral the vendor has is about the polarcell ones they are selling01:17
DocScrutinizer51just like the negative comments about that IL seller selling HK origin "new original package" N900. Each negative comment is "fake device. Refurbished. Not new. Used device. Cheater"01:22
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kerioDocScrutinizer51: do you think is legit?01:25
Lava_Croftoh its nice how they state the battery works in 8, 16 and 32gb devices01:26
* Lava_Croft wipes forehead01:26
keriowhy is the N900 grouped with the C3-00? :s01:26
Lava_Croftmaybe both use BL-5J01:26
Lava_Croftthats a legit bl-5j01:27
kerioall those phones use a bl-5j01:27
* ShadowJK can get genuine Nokia BL-5J 1430mAh for less01:29
ShadowJKoh i lie, 13.9501:30
kerioShadowJK: the polarcell should be bigger01:32
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entitledshould've been more careful, was naive to think that german vendor wouldn't sell counterfeit crap.01:35
SpeedEvilwell, have you contacted them?01:37
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entitledleft an follow-up feedback01:39
SpeedEvilcontact them, ask for replacement, or refund01:39
entitledmost of their feedback is in deutsch01:40
SpeedEvilonly then leave feedback01:40
entitledthey've answered few feedbacks and judging from them, their stance seems to be that they are a-ok.01:40
entitledthe batteries I mean. Functioning as intended.01:41
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SpeedEvilsmall claims court01:42
entitledAnyone know what lies beneath genuine polarcell sticker?01:42
SpeedEvilcontact polar ell01:42
entitledfound two lines of alphanumeric code under mine01:42
entitledye I thought about that01:43
entitledmaybe they sue their ass if they are really counterfeits01:43
entitledmore luck in court with german vendor than a chinese one, kill one and three more sprout.01:44
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Lava_CroftAint she pretty01:47
ShadowJKDid they figure out what the shiny things on the ground were01:47
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ShadowJKhow was that pic taken :o01:47
ShadowJKhow :o01:48
ShadowJKI was expecting to see the arm which holds the camera01:49
SpeedEvilfat girl angle01:49
Lava_Croftmissing a horizontal peace sign01:49
Lava_Croftwith the hand01:49
Lava_Croftprettiest microwave on wheels ever01:50
Lava_Croftits wheels are already pretty worn01:50
Lava_Croftall the dents01:50
Lava_Crofti really love this hires pics01:50
entitledhmm, dr_frost_dk lists the same vendor as a source for his battery that he measured for 1400mA01:54
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: ((legit?)) sounds not that reassuring. Since a) BL-5J never been a LiPo but a LiIon. and b) they claim it's the strongest (highest capacity) battery available for those devices, which is evidently incorrect even when looking only at Nokia genuine batteries01:56
DocScrutinizer05ooh, b) already mentioned by ShadowJK01:57
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: that's evidently fake photoshopped picture02:02
ShadowJKimpressive stitch02:03
Lava_CroftShadowJK: havent heard about the object they found02:04
Lava_CroftI think they agreed that it came from the microwave tho02:04
ShadowJKthey found alot more of them later02:04
Lava_Crofter i mean rover02:04
ShadowJKlike, too many to be parts falling off02:04
Lava_Crofti havent followed that anymore, was busy02:05
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Lava_Croftthey use social media so much02:05
Lava_CroftIts great how they post everything as if its the rover itself posting02:05
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer05: they're now using shiny GPU based stitchers and stuff to do this with02:05
Lava_CroftShadowJK: the first shiny part is unrelated to later shiny parts02:07
Lava_Croftthe first thing was a piece of plastic from the rover02:07
Lava_Croftlater on it was different things02:07
merlin1991anybody care to explain *how* it took the picture (of the rover) to a complete idiot?02:07
SpeedEvilbits of weather balloon02:07
Lava_Croftthats the same portrait02:08
Lava_Croftstitched by a hobbyist02:08
Lava_CroftThe probe moved the camera to different positions in each image so the arm isn’t visible.02:08
Lava_CroftRead more:
Lava_CroftFollow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook02:09
Lava_CroftThe probe moved the camera to different positions in each image so the arm isn’t visible.02:09
Lava_CroftRead more:
Lava_CroftFollow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook02:09
Lava_Croftplease fuck off windows clipboard02:09
Lava_Croftanyhow merlin1991, they took several pics from different positions02:09
Lava_Croftso that the arm is not visible02:09
kerio>the daily mail02:09
Lava_Crofti just follow google02:09
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DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: stitched several snapshots to a huge highres picture. Obviously the managed to pick those pictures that all have no sign of the arm (though I still wonder what's about the point of the rover where the arm *ends*)02:13
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DocScrutinizer05or rather: starts02:13
DocScrutinizer05there *must* be some artifacts there02:14
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DocScrutinizer05since, while the hand arm could portrait the rover, still the arm can't portrait itself full length - you'll never see the camera taking the snapshots in the snapshots. So where's the stub?02:15
DocScrutinizer05or are there two of them cameras?02:16
Lava_Croftthats used to make the portrait pics02:19
Lava_Croftmahli is the only camera on a long arm02:20
Lava_Crofthere the arm seems cut out02:21
Lava_Croftbottom middle02:21
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ShadowJKAlso look in reflection in the lens in upper left on that big selfportrait pic02:25
Lava_Croftits upside down, yes02:25
Lava_Croftthats normal02:25
Lava_Croftat least, if you mean the inverted landscape02:26
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DocScrutinizer05I just think they pretty nifty cut hte stiching so it doesn't show where they cut of the arm with the camera02:30
DocScrutinizer05cut off*02:31
Lava_Croftprobably, yes02:32
DragnslcrIs there any way to stop the media player from renaming audio files? I assume it's fetching information from CDDB or FreeDB, but I don't want it renaming files that it finds matches for.02:33
DocScrutinizer05it's not renaming files02:36
dafoxdoes anyone see the shadow of the arm then?02:36
DocScrutinizer05Dragnslcr: the whole crap works quite different02:37
DocScrutinizer05the notorious trackerd is scanning "all device" for media files and tags in there. Then buolds a SQL database from that, and this is used to show available songs/videos etc in mediaplayer02:38
DragnslcrWell, the file manager shows them being renamed02:38
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DocScrutinizer05nobody ever seen that before02:39
DragnslcrSo does my computer when it connects in mass storage mode02:39
DocScrutinizer05nfc who should rename files there02:39
DocScrutinizer05my files all are untampered02:39
Skryas are mine02:40
DragnslcrHm, terminal shows the files with the names I gave them02:40
DocScrutinizer05after all renaming media files was pretty idiocy, since on next sync your syncer would think fles are missing and would copy them over again02:40
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DragnslcrLet me check mass storage mode again02:41
DragnslcrOkay, it looks correct from my computer now02:42
DocScrutinizer05Dragnslcr: maybe you fell for another evil pitfall: you MUST NOT try to access any files on MyDocs or uSD-card via any means on-device, as long as device is in USB mass storage mode02:42
DragnslcrYeah, the FIle Manager doesn't even show the SD card in mass storage mode02:43
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DragnslcrAnd I know I haven't gone through the terminal like that02:43
DocScrutinizer05since MyDocs as well as /media/card needs umount to get exported, you'd access a plain dir of / or in your homedir then02:44
DragnslcrSo File Manager shows the CDDB names. I guess it looks at the metadata02:44
dafoxthis shows where the imager (MAHLI) is attached:
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dafoxlooking at the picture you can see the artifacts02:45
DocScrutinizer05soring any files there during mass storage mode would create phantom files that sue up space but never usually are visible02:45
dafoxmystery solved :D02:45
DragnslcrSo I guess my question then is just how to stop the media player from fetching the info02:45
DocScrutinizer05Dragnslcr: there's no way to stop mediaplayer from using tracker database. there's however a plugin to access 'raw' filesystem02:46
DocScrutinizer05and I never realized filemanager shows metadata for media files02:47
DragnslcrSeems odd to me, too. That's all I can think of, though02:47
DocScrutinizer05and tbh I doubt that's the case02:47
DragnslcrIt doesn't show the same names as doing ls in the terminal02:49
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DocScrutinizer05for the base dirs that's true02:49
Skryafaik neither media player or tracker "fetches" anything from anywhere but the file itself, so just delete metadata from file and you'll see just filenames02:50
DocScrutinizer05as /home/user/MyDocs/ is shown as N900/ in filemanager02:50
DocScrutinizer05Skry: err wut?02:50
DragnslcrFor stuff under Music, it lists the song title and artist02:50
Skryby metadata I ment ie id3 tags02:51
DragnslcrI don't know if Music is treated special, or if it would do it anywhere in the file system02:51
DocScrutinizer05soory, not even a Music dir here02:51
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DragnslcrI have /media/mmc1/Music02:52
DocScrutinizer05I don't think that's any standard02:53
DocScrutinizer05since /media/mmc1 is the uSD02:53
DocScrutinizer05but yeah, I can confirm it shows metadata in MP3 dirs02:54
DocScrutinizer05with a music note icon in front of them02:55
DragnslcrI don't remember if it's always been there or if I created the directories on the SD card myself02:55
DocScrutinizer05fsck filemanager02:55
DragnslcrI've had the phone for almost 3 years02:55
DocScrutinizer05pro-tip: use URL "file://media/mmc1/music" in browser02:56
DocScrutinizer05or, alternatively, use a decent file manager02:56
DocScrutinizer05not the braindamaged one that ships with maemo02:57
DocScrutinizer05every other filemanager will allow you to visiut dirs like /etc /var whatnot else, and doesn't do nifty idiocy like the metadata stuff on media files02:58
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DragnslcrYeah, probably a good idea. I haven't used the file manager too much anyway. Mass storage mode and the terminal have been good enough so far02:59
DragnslcrSkry- looks like you might be right that it reads the id3 tags02:59
SkryDragnslcr: I am.03:00
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DragnslcrNow to change all of them03:00
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SkryDragnslcr: if you remove/change them you might need to manually set tracker to do a rescan.03:03
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SkryNot sure though, but I have a faint memory of tracked not updating on metadata change, might be wrong.03:04
DragnslcrIt looked like it picked it up right away, but I had copied a new file from my computer anyway03:04
Skryimo tracker should be killed with fire03:05
DragnslcrThanks for the help, all03:10
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LaoLang_coolhello, is there an app to allow in-coming calls shows caller info (company, title, etc.) in contacts database?04:19
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kerioDocScrutinizer51: another weird thing in mass storage mode is that the whole uSD is exported, even if the kernel is using a part of it09:07
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kerioalso good morning09:08
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fastaHow can I use the proximity sensor on the N900?10:37
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freemangordonvi__: did you try ramzswap?12:30
jon_ycompress swap before put to disk?12:30
freemangordonno, compcache, google for it12:31
user__freemangordon: yes.12:31
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vi_it is as I suspected.12:31
vi_That means I like it very much.12:32
vi_I am using it right now.12:32
freemangordonvi_: don't12:32
vi_epic data corruption ahoy?12:33
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freemangordonas soon as you run out of "free" segments in backing device you're screwed12:33
freemangordoni warned you it is POV, not something usable fo everyday usage12:33
freemangordonit is missing the part of backing device defragmentation12:34
vi_I know12:35
freemangordonvi_: I am still not convinced that ramzswap (even with my improvements) performs better than swap on uSD12:35
vi_I swapon/off to another partition every now and then.12:35
freemangordonaah, ok12:35
vi_subjectivley, I am.12:35
vi_I just discovered tmux is compiled for the n900.12:36
freemangordonsee, we just don;t have powerful enough CPU to serve both (compressed) rootfs and (compressed) swap12:36
vi_you know gnu screen?12:36
vi_holy shit12:36
freemangordonaah, ppp stuff?12:36
vi_gnu screen is a terminal multiplexor.12:37
freemangordonwhat it is useful for?12:37
vi_It allows you to run many instances of sh from a single instance of sh.12:37
freemangordoneyah, got that, just wonder what it could be used for. on n90012:37
vi_freemangordon: If I ssh into the n900, I can have many instances of sh through 1 putty window.12:38
vi_It allows you to split the screen.12:38
freemangordonaah, ok12:38
DocScrutinizer51more imprtantly it keeps your shell sessions running even when ssh connection breaks down12:38
vi_I currently have 4 terminals running through 1 putty window.12:38
freemangordonok, sounds like a nice piece of SW12:39
vi_SO right now I have irssi in the top left, a shell in the bottom left, mplayer on the top right and rtorrent on the bottom right.12:39
vi_ALL AT ONCE.12:39
vi_Even more...12:39
DocScrutinizer51screen is mad useful, this new epigone though... :-S12:39
vi_as doc was spoilerising12:39
vi_You can detach the current session.12:40
freemangordonyeah, got it12:40
freemangordonsounds useful12:41
vi_then continue it later from another connection/location etc.12:41
DocScrutinizer51more like: you can reconnect to a running session12:41
vi_freemangordon: It is like a windows manager for X!12:41
vi_DocScrutinizer51: yeah.12:41
DocScrutinizer51no matter why it broke down. It's not like you need to dedicatedly detach12:42
vi_anyway gnu screen is old, obselete and riddled with code rot.12:42
freemangordonvi_: anyway, back to ramzswap - I need someone to convince me it makes sense to finish what's been started12:42
vi_tmux is the new kid on the block, it is like gnu screen XL EDITION.12:42
vi_freemangordon: How about a free n950?12:43
DocScrutinizer51meh,screen got invented and still is maintained by guys from a university18km from my home :-D12:43
vi_DocScrutinizer51: Is it?12:43
freemangordonnaah, I am talking about rationale12:43
freemangordonI *feel* my device performs worse with ramzswap on12:44
DocScrutinizer51tmux is braindamaged, since it keeps your mobile device busy12:44
DocScrutinizer51battery killer12:44
vi_DocScrutinizer51: I will need to check that.12:44
freemangordonand all that come from compression12:44
vi_freemangordon: Is it possible to use a 'lighter' compression algo?12:45
vi_or emphasise performance over compression ratio?12:45
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freemangordoni don;t think it matters, as it should happen in "real time"12:45
freemangordonBTW I would like to hear ShadowJK's thoughts on that, he tried it too12:46
DocScrutinizer51you nice bunch with your intriguing topics make me ponder extending my break for another cig12:46
freemangordonvi_: and usually we need pages swapped in the same time we read rootfs12:47
vi_is it possible to not use compression on root?12:47
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vi_obviously have to evict a load of stuff.12:48
vi_There was also some guy...12:48
vi_ruskie perhaps who created the move root to emmc and boot from there script.12:48
freemangordonwell, I think lots of stuff can be moved to /opt, but that's not the point12:48
vi_I mean to create space on root so that compression does not need to be used.12:50
DocScrutinizer51optify shite!12:54
freemangordonI think the best that could be done is to just make an optimized swap. with no compression at all12:55
DocScrutinizer51vi_: I think optification mainly been driven by lcuk12:56
freemangordonvi_: compression (on rootfs) does not depend on amount of free space12:56
freemangordon*the amount12:56
vi_freemangordon: yes, however if you remove compression, the contents of root will 'grow'.12:57
DocScrutinizer51there's still a whole lotta cruft to optify. Let's see who's tackling it12:57
freemangordonof course it will12:57
freemangordonagain, that's not the point12:57
vi_DocScrutinizer51: I self optify all the time.  Symlink shit all over the place.12:57
DocScrutinizer51check out optification jobs12:58
freemangordonswap compression will alaways lead to CPU load. Usually at the same moment you need that CPU to do other stuff12:58
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freemangordonlike rendering or something12:58
freemangordon*if* we have 2 1GHz cores we can afford that12:59
freemangordonbut we don;t :D12:59
freemangordonthis is why I think ramzswap (with compression) is a dead end12:59
DocScrutinizer51vi_: ^13:00
ShadowJKon the other hand, cpu might be sitting idle waiting to be fed with data too13:00
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freemangordonShadowJK: sure. But usually swap writes happen on aplication startup13:01
freemangordonor when switching between mmory hungry apps13:02
vi_freemangordon: Or switching some very heavy windows surely.13:02
vi_In the latter case, rootfs interaction is minimal.13:02
freemangordonbut you still have stutter because of ramzswap13:03
freemangordonas CPU is needed by the heavy app AND swap13:03
freemangordonand that annot be solved by putting pages in workqueue to be compressed later as we don;t have enough RAM13:04
* freemangordon wonders why he cannot press ', but types ; every time13:05
freemangordonaah, yes, I am C coder :D13:06
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vi_freemangordon: Did you manage to install debian yet?13:35
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lardmanhmm, I see WP8 adds a feature called a "Lens" to allow apps to be embedded within the Camera app, that would have been handy on Maemo & Harmattan13:51
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jon_ylardman: you mean opencv?13:52
freemangordonvi_: no, didn't have time to play with it13:52
jon_yhas been around forever, though no GUI for it13:52
lardmanno, a way of expanding the camera app13:52
lardmanrather than needing to replace it wholesale13:53
freemangordonvi_: I managed to install ubuntu, but ati cosed source driver does not work13:53
vi_hey dawg I heard u like apps so we embedded an app in an app so you can ignore what you are doing while you are doing it.13:53
jon_yit's not really different, with plugins/filters whatever you call them13:53
vi_lardman: It has been replaced, see camera-ui213:53
infobotfreemangordon meant: vi_: I managed to install ubuntu, but ati closed source driver does not work13:53
vi_freemangordon: well damn.13:53
freemangordonthat's 64 bit, didn't try 32bit13:54
vi_I just installed debian on a system some 2 days ago, took me 30mins+installation of closed source junk.13:54
lardmanjon_y: it's the integration rather than the backend that I'm talking about here - re backends it will be good to finally get GPUs with OpenCL support, sometime....13:54
jon_yyo dawg, we heard you like apps so we put an app in your app so you can app while you app13:54
freemangordonvi_: it took me ages to find that it is ACPI HPET that causes nstaller to hang13:54
vi_freemangordon: How do you run scratchbox then?13:54
freemangordonin vmware13:55
jon_yintegration/backend, its the same, just depending on which direction you look13:55
lardmanvi_: yes, just a shame Nokia didn't listen to us and provide Camera app expansion earlier in the product lifecycle13:55
vi_lardman: It is just a shame doesnt listen.13:55
SpeedEvilthe camera app expansion is not where I'd have liked the listening to be :-)13:56
freemangordonvi_: I'll give debian a shot again, just not soon, there is more interesting things to do ;)13:56
lardmanjon_y: hmm, not sure about that; the integration issue was present all over the shop and basically due to the closed apps13:56
vi_freemangordon: My advice is 32bit debian testing.13:56
freemangordonvi_: like kernel in CSSU and such13:56
freemangordonvi_: yeah, I know13:56
jon_ycamera is at /dev/video or something13:56
vi_freemangordon: YEEAAAHHH!!!!13:56
lardmanclosed is fine as long as there are apis to allow expansion/addition of features, providers, consumers, etc. That's the point of the Lenses thing just too late for us13:56
freemangordonvi_: see :P13:57
jon_yheh, C++1413:57
vi_I only have windos so I can play some games.13:57
lardmanSpeedEvil: I realise there were many other problems, but this was something we discussed in Amsterdam, which is a long long time ago13:57
SpeedEviland yeah, I know.13:58
SpeedEvilJolla will save us!13:58
lardmanFrom what I've read it will also have a closed UI, so it will presumably present the same challenges13:59
lardmanlet's hope they listen better! :)13:59
SpeedEvilthere are confusing noises about that.13:59
vi_off course jolla will save us, they have produced more devices than tizen+meego+moblin combined!13:59
SpeedEvilclosed can mean something like harmattan13:59
SpeedEvilor it can mean 'non GPL' open source, without the right to use commercially14:00
freemangordonthat would be shame14:00
vi_swipy swipy SWIPE.14:00
lardmanSpeedEvil: sure, I forgot about the latter14:00
lardmanI fear it will be closed source though as otherwise it's probably hard to monetise it14:00
SpeedEvilthe latter, with the ability to buy licences would be most awesome14:00
vi_lardman: and therein lies the problem with OSS.14:01
lardmanvi_: +114:01
lardmanSpeedEvil: even the former with decent expansion apis would be fine, got to start somewhere14:01
SpeedEvilvery true14:01
SpeedEvileven just rolling back to the state of harmattan would be an improvement14:01
vi_Google have half managed it.  There income does not come from selling/maintaining their OS.14:02
lardmanHarmattan was not too bad from that point of view, shame they pulled the plug effectively making it pointless to develop for the platform14:02
lardmanvi_: But Jolla need something to pay the bills, Google have their advertisiing revenue14:02
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SpeedEvilvi_: 'first win the lottery' approach to financial planning.14:03
vi_People will not release software for your platform if users can just pirate it by emailing it to each other.14:03
lardmanthey will if it's free software14:03
SpeedEvilto a degree14:03
SpeedEvilthe infrastructure needs to be friendly though14:04
lardmanmy interest is in developing something that is useful to me and others, and investing time I want to be sure that what I write will be able to run on something in the future without too much messing around14:04
lardmanbut we all know this, it's the same for everyone who's not releasing commercial sw14:05
SpeedEviland then there are fun issues14:05
SpeedEvillike, an android 'wine' layer would make your phone more saleanke14:05
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SpeedEvilbut screw native app developers14:06
lardmanI'm on the fence about that, I think it would be good to provide lots of apps up front to get people using the platform14:07
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lardmanI suppose no-one would bother developing natively then as they could target two platforms at once14:07
lardmanthough presumably the native stuff would have better integration, and generally be better once written, which gives some motivation to write stuff14:08
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SpeedEvilonly other hope is bounties, and spaying devices around developers like confetti14:09
lardmanWhich is what Nokia did with WP7, and that wasn't overly successful14:10
SpeedEvilwell, or in-house14:10
SpeedEvilor even an in house porting process for compatible apps14:10
SpeedEvilthey are GPL after all14:10
lardmanI wonder if lots of apps are actually necessary, perhaps it would work better targetted at power users to being with, accept that you don't have 10 million apps to download but that you can write stuff14:11
lardmani.e. similar strategy to the N90014:12
ShadowJK10 million apps, and none of them do what i want14:12
lardmanShadowJK: I know that feeling!14:12
SpeedEvilI have not found a usabke cad app on android that works with fingers14:13
SpeedEvilthere are eleven billion 'my drawing programming let's you use a kitten as a brush'14:14
lardmanThe offerings on the Psion 3/5 were better in that regard, some quite technically good apps available14:15
lardmanProbably the stability of the OPL language helped with that14:15
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lardmanand the demographic of the people using them14:16
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SpeedEvilit's kinda depressing when the original palm beats it in some ways14:17
vi_the majority of android appz are bodges, kludges and workarounds.14:17
lardmanI wonder if there are actually a core of really good apps there somewhere, hidden by the huge number of things in the Market14:18
jon_yyes, the one that lets you put debian on it :)14:18
jon_ymakes vi usable on a touch screen :)14:19
lardmanbut then we come back to the problem of a lack of apps that are actually useful on a small touchscreen14:19
lardmanE.g. running Ubuntu even on a 7" screen is terrible14:19
lardmanNot the desktop but the apps themselves14:20
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SpeedEvillardman: I've found searching for GPL in the market gives very different results14:30
lardmanI tend to search for those with a git repo :)14:32
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DocScrutinizer51hi lardman !14:44
lardmanhey Doc14:44
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DocScrutinizer51lardman: alas it turns out the API of closed stuff always lacking elementary features and according to that strip linked in ~aegis: Nobody can *fix* it14:48
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
lardmanDocScrutinizer51: which means one also needs the second step, for the developers of the closed parts to listen to the people using the APIs14:49
DocScrutinizer51hat's mainly a problem of schedules and culture in industry14:50
lardmanI suppose if the software will be continually used though, not just thrown away while the next thing is developed to replace it, there might be a better chance14:51
lardmanof course it all being open source would be far better14:51
DocScrutinizer51look at fremantle vs harmattan14:52
jon_ydebian forever! :)14:52
DocScrutinizer51how much of stuff in fremantle got fixed, how much been binned and replaced in harm14:52
lardmanthat's a fundamental problem though of changing direction14:53
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lardmanfor the second time14:53
DocScrutinizer51manufs never *use* their own dogfood14:53
DocScrutinizer51usually when field feedback comes in, your inhouse knowhow already retired or died14:55
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jon_yall that TIMETOMARKET and CYCLETIME actually has downsides, who'd thunk?14:56
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jon_yoh, and agile for programmers is nothing more than an excuse for being lazy in coding and long term planning14:57
DocScrutinizer51TTM=2years, cycle/lifetime=6months14:57
DocScrutinizer51means you usually got 4 products in the pipe14:58
DocScrutinizer51with 4 teams14:58
DocScrutinizer51once a team rolls out their product, they immediately switch to product-v+414:59
jon_yproduct support also suck15:00
DocScrutinizer51as a reult of all this15:00
DocScrutinizer51the alternative are longterm stable industry platforms which are available and supported for several years and cost like 10* the consumer product15:02
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lardmanpresumably if they use the same sw then fixes will be rolled in for the following products though15:02
jon_ysee workstations, they last two times longer but cost 4 times more :(15:02
DocScrutinizer51lardman: you been around at #openmoko back  when? Or did we 'meet' here first?15:05
lardmanDocScrutinizer51: Probably met here, I came from the Zaurus to the 770, and that was around the time OpenMoko was starting iirc15:06
DocScrutinizer51well, lunch break over, bbl15:10
lardmancu later15:10
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vi_freemangordon: ?20:10
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vi_I have just introduced mrs vi_ to portal.22:58
vi_for a soon to be dr of synthetic biology, she is hopeless at solving puzzles in a virtual 3d environment.22:58
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