IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2012-09-11

Pali1272 could be00:00
freemangordonPali: how is that, it should be 136000:00
Paliit is not 1260?00:00
Palior 1270?00:00
kerioi just disabled the sdk and nokia-binaries repos :D00:01
freemangordonPali: 132000:01
freemangordonchecked on my second n90000:01
PaliI remebmer that I read somewhere that bl5j batteries in n900 was not 13xx but only 12[6|7]000:01
freemangordonit is written 132000:02
freemangordonand according to what I remember from battery thread on tmo, it is around that value00:02
freemangordonth real capacity00:02
freemangordonPali: something is fishy here00:04
freemangordonbut anyway, that is how bsi-read calculates BSI00:05
ShadowJKiirc bme reported capacity for me has been around 125000:07
kerioBSI: 99800:07
ShadowJKfor orig bl-5j00:07
freemangordonShadowJK: but it should be around 132000:07
keriofor original bl-5j00:07
Palifreemangordon, bq27200 chip never reported more than 1250 after learning cycles...00:08
freemangordonkerio: and what is the output from  lshal | grep design00:08
freemangordonPali: ok, but how old is your battery?00:09
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kerio4200 voltage00:09
Paliyear 200900:09
freemangordonPali: see00:09
kerioi don't know how old mine is00:09
Paliis there any date?00:09
keriobut it's still pretty good00:09
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ShadowJKfreemangordon; i've never seen .design of bl-5j above 1300.. and never seen actual capacities above 1250-ish either :)00:10
* kerio had an actual capacity of 1312mAh00:10
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freemangordonShadowJK: but according to TMO thread the capacity is really around 131500:10
kerionow dropped to 124900:10
ShadowJKactual capacity on all of my Nokia BL-5J are about 1000mAh these days :)00:11
kerioshould i buy one of those 1500mAh batteries from germany?00:11
freemangordonhehe. but this is not the same as design capacity :P00:11
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PaliShadowJK, I still have about 120000:13
freemangordonthe fuck00:13
freemangordonPali: I think we can use at least 1.2800:13
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freemangordonseems that on original batteries BSI resistor is badly calibrated. Or they are not 1320 mAh :D00:16
ShadowJKor then thry didn't want to order odd value resistors and picked whatever was closest00:17
freemangordonyeah, could be00:17
freemangordonbut 1.28 gives the correct capacity for my 1430 mAh BL5J00:18
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ShadowJKwhat resistance does that work out to?00:23
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freemangordonShadowJK: not sure I understand, would you rephrase?00:23
ShadowJKI'm more familiar with resistance to mAh rather than adc reading?00:25
freemangordonShadowJK: don;t know, never measuer it00:25
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ShadowJKanyway, I have a vague memory that the relationship of resistance to capacity wasn't linear, and then when we're measuring the voltage of a voltage divider where bsi forms one part, the voltage reading isn't linear either00:28
ShadowJKso I'd think there's atleast a + or - term missing somewhere :P00:29
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freemangordonShadowJK: well, (1200*bsi_raw)/(1024-bsi_raw) is EXACTLY what bsi-read does00:30
freemangordondon't know about BME though00:30
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freemangordonthough x/(a-x) is not exactly linear :)00:31
freemangordontoo lazy now to fire matlab to get the exact graphic :)00:33
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ShadowJKwhat does that return for bl-5j 1320?00:35
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freemangordonaround 100000:35
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freemangordonPali's is 990, while doc's is 100200:36
freemangordonkerio has 99800:36
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* ShadowJK forgets if it was BL-5J or BP-4L that measures 100kR00:45
ShadowJK1.2V = 1200, 1024 for 10 bit ADC?00:46
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freemangordondeffinitely not linear00:48
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ShadowJKi dont remember the schematics00:49
ShadowJKbut bsi-read might be trying to read the resistance of the bsi resistor, and probably makes no attempt at converting it to mAh?00:49
freemangordonShadowJK: deffinitely, it gives some BSI: value, whatever it means00:50
ShadowJKand I suspect for mAh it's going to be something like mAh = (bsiR + a) * b + c00:51
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freemangordonShadowJK: bsiR? raw or resistance00:51
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freemangordoncould be, but why BME reports incorrect values then?00:53 = 1415 here, for 1430 mAh battery00:54
freemangordonit is even worse for original batteries00:54
freemangordon1250-1270 for 1320 mAh battery00:55
ShadowJKAs for the original bl-5j, 1250 is more truthful :)00:56
ShadowJKbut I've seen variation from boot to boot bigger than 1430-141500:56
freemangordonit might be that resistance depends on the temperature, thus variations00:58
ShadowJKFor purposes of determining optimal charge current, +-100 is sufficient too..00:58
freemangordonanyway, I am off for sleep00:59
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jacekowskifreemangordon: well, resistors have tolerances01:02
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Palihere is source code kernel driver which export voltage, temperature and design capacity:
Palitested and seems working fine01:53
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DocScrutinizer05<freemangordon> seems that on original batteries BSI resistor is badly calibrated. Or they are not 1320 mAh :D #### Or the whole assumption is moot, and BSI isn't really defined in any proper way at all03:19
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DocScrutinizer05BP-4L: 120kR, nom.cap. 1500mAh.  BL-4U: 80.4kR, nom.cap. 1000mAh. BL-5J: 99.1kR, nom.cap: 1320mAh03:35
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DocScrutinizer05all @23°C03:39
DocScrutinizer05 :: >>BL-6C?? (actual measured value on a cold (25C) battery is 75k, on a slightly warm battery - 82k)<<03:42
DocScrutinizer05so it seems BSI is only useful together with proper bat-temp, at least for some battery types03:43
DocScrutinizer05and since different NTC/PTC (80kR, 100kR, 120kR) also may have different T/R characteristic, probably BSI formula is more or less undefined on any but a certain nominal temperature (like 22°C)03:46
DocScrutinizer05@-15°C: BP-4L: 120kR03:49
DocScrutinizer05@-15°C: BL-4: 80kR03:50
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DocScrutinizer05@-15°C: BL-4U: 80kR03:50
DocScrutinizer05@-15°C: BL-5J: 99kR03:52
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DocScrutinizer05conclusion: for all three types there's no thermistor used, unlike BL-5C. For BP-4L and BL-4U there seems to be a consistent multiplier for BSI_kR * $multiplier_12.5 = Capacity_mAh03:56
DocScrutinizer05not though for BL-5J03:56
DocScrutinizer05~90.1 * 12.503:57
DocScrutinizer05for BL-4/5/6D above formula may or may not apply (@22°C), alas no proper genuine Nokia of this model at hand right now04:00
DocScrutinizer05noteworthy detail: BL-xD has flat-pad contacts, while the three other types have compatible spring loaded bracket in slot contacts04:03
DocScrutinizer05all three marked "(+) (-) ( )   3.7V"04:05
DocScrutinizer05all my BL-5J are marked 1320mAh04:08
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DocScrutinizer05dang, now I recall I already did all this some 3 or 4 years ago04:26
DocScrutinizer05and seems my today's conclusion is same like back then: There are several different methods/alrgorithms, even concepts (Thermistor) used on this obscure 3rd pin of batteries. And thus it's not really useful for anything, except maybe for differentiating between old and newer improved builds of one particular model of a battery04:29
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DocScrutinizer05hell, we even take assumptions, when we take "Battery *SIZE* Indicator" for granted. Might just be a unfortunate incorrect wording kept for histroical reasons. Who says this isn't meant to maybe signal allowable charge current, like ShadowJK suggested. If that's the case, this value may loosely correlate to battery capacity but basically is useless for the very purpose to calculate exact capacity from it then, since different cell04:38
DocScrutinizer05builds may take different relative max charge current, like 0.5C, 0.7C, 1C, even 2C04:38
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ShadowJKwell a rough capacity indication would be useful for setting charge current05:50
ShadowJKas for fuel gauging, I'd say a rough indicaion is sufficient because real capacity is way off anyway, especially when you take bme's early shutdown thresholds into account05:51
ShadowJKther's probaly a magic bsi range for signaling "device in jig" too05:52
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DocScrutinizer05yes. it's frequently referred to as "test battery" or "service battery"06:24
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freemangordonPali: why is temp table only 45 elements?10:58
freemangordonPali: in rx51_battery.c that is11:00
Palibecause temperature data was between -9°C and 44°C11:00
Palithere is 55 values (not 45)11:00
Palifor each temperature values there is min raw value in table11:01
freemangordonok, 55, not 45. the point is you should not return EINVAL for temperatures outside the range -9-4511:01
Paliand what?11:02
freemangordonyou either return min/max (i.e. -9/45) or do some approximation11:02
freemangordonlatter is better. do you have matlab?11:02
Palinot now/here11:03
freemangordonhmm, ok, do you have graph presenation of the table? I need it to decide on polinomial order that will be used for approximation for values outside the range11:04
freemangordonthe idea is - for the range -9 - 45 use the table11:04
freemangordonotherwise use approximation11:04
freemangordonI think that was the correct one to use11:06
PaliI draw plot with gnuplot and function raw->°K seems to be exp11:07
Palisomething like a*exp(-x*b)+c11:07
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freemangordonPali: -0.00000003843332   0.00002923219357  -0.00840590603944   1.20658776300563  -39.8609143872460011:31
freemangordon4th order polinomial11:31
Palicoefficients are too small11:32
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freemangordondon't we have FP?11:33
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Paliis precision is enought?11:34
freemangordonlemme upload the graph11:34
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freemangordonyellow stars are table data11:36
freemangordonpurple is approximation11:36
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freemangordonPali: ^^^11:37
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keriodeepy: ohai12:12
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kerioguys, should deepy buy a N900?12:12
freemangordonkerio: why not?12:12
deepyvalid reasoning12:13
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freemangordonhehe. jokes aside, n900 is still ok, at least for my needs12:13
keriohah :(12:13
kerioi'm in the situation where the n900 is not exactly ok, but everything else is much less ok12:14
freemangordonkerio: elabrate please12:14
keriofreemangordon: too little ram, too little cpu12:14
keriothe usual12:14
freemangordonwell, you have -thumb on it. CPU is ok12:14
kerioit's not the same thing!12:14
freemangordonit is not slow at all12:15
freemangordoncpu that is12:15
freemangordonkerio: you'll feel the difference when most of the system is thumb. If not already feeling it12:15
kerio(deepy: -thumb is the recompilation of most of the system in a different, smaller instruction set - Thumb2 instead of ARM - that frees a lot of space and ram)12:16
freemangordonkerio: what exactly you need more RAM? FireFox? It behaves almost as bad on n95012:16
keriofreemangordon: just for general freshness, i suppose12:17
tadzikthe UI could be more responsive, although that's probably not ram's fault12:17
keriothe n900 is slower and less responsive than my 2x2.8GHz laptop with 4gb of ram, for instance12:17
freemangordonkerio: ORLY?12:17
keriofreemangordon: YARLY!12:18
freemangordonstrange, as i is sometimes faster than my 2.8GHz 1GB laptop12:18
freemangordonsingle core P4 that is :P12:19
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freemangordonkerio: I usually have uptime of 2 weeks or so, it is fast all the time12:21
freemangordon-thumb and swap on uSD of course12:21
kerioso far my longest uptime has been like three days12:21
keriobecause i always find an excuse to reboot12:22
kerioand i *used* to have a 4gb swap partition, but then image-viewer yelled at me12:22
freemangordonhmm, 1G here, you don;t really need 4GB12:23
keriobut i WANTED 4gb12:23
kerioi can afford it12:23
kerioi make it rain12:23
tadzikis there any advantage for swap on uSD rather than on emmc?12:23
freemangordonit makes all the difference12:23
keriotadzik: less congestion on the emmc12:23
kerioit doesn't make a lot of difference12:24
freemangordonkerio: it makes12:24
keriofreemangordon: ;)12:24
freemangordonstop trolling and read the appropriate threads on TMO12:24
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freemangordontadzik: even if uSD is class 2 it makes n900 lot more faster. you should change other stuff (like swappiness and such)12:26
freemangordonbut there is swappolube for that purpose12:26
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Skrydoes zram give any benefits on n900?12:27
tadzikI have class 1012:27
tadzikI'll look for the tmo thread12:27
keriotadzik: class doesn't matter for the purpose of swap12:27
keriothe class gives you the minimal *sequential* write speed12:27
kerioyou need *random* reads and writes12:27
tadzikthen it's worthless indeed12:27
keriowell, no, it's still good to take pictures and record video :)12:28
freemangordonSkry: unfortunately no12:29
keriotadzik: even more important is the sandiskness12:30
freemangordonkerio: yeah, exactly12:30
Skryfreemangordon: yeah, thought so.12:30
freemangordontadzik: the more sandisk it is, the better12:31
tadzikheh, then I'm out of luck12:31
freemangordonbut even sandisk 4 is better than sandisk 1012:31
kerio*for the purpose of swap*12:32
freemangordonthough I use sandisk 16GB class 10 and it is ok12:32
freemangordonkerio: yes12:32
keriofor christmas, i want a microsd made of RAM12:34
freemangordonI dream of such device for the last 3 years :D. a uSD device with first 1G made of ram and remaining 127G of flash :D12:39
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kerioi'd be happy with the first 1G12:41
freemangordonunfortunately noone seems to produce such a beast12:41
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* vi_ considers a 1GB RamSanDisk.12:43
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derpmodeI just had a weird pop-up on my n900: "You have exceeded the time limit and your reservation has been released.           The purpose of this time limit is to ensure that registration is available to as many people as possible. We apologize for the inconvenience"13:08
derpmodewtf program is that from?13:08
derpmodeapparently the browser can make system yellow popups like that13:09
derpmodefrom websites13:09
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lardmanhey RST38h16:11
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lardmanhmm, after having used a Windows mobile device and an Android device for a while and now coming back to my N950, I'm struck by just how nice the interface is (even if slightly half baked in places), and how poor the signal strength is16:17
vi_and how sexually the aluminium case glides through your fingers.16:21
lardmanit's plastic isn't it?16:23
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* lardman curses Fenix16:25
kerio<lardman> ooh look at me i'm so cool, i have a N95016:27
kerioI HATE YOU >:C16:27
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lardmansorry about that kerio, why the anger?16:28
lardmanshouting won't help you, nor will abusing me, even if it makes you feel better16:30
Luke-Jrhow about asking how much yours costs? ;)16:30
Luke-JrI mean, you're obviously not using it <.<16:30
lardmanwell I am now :p16:31
lardmanthough without mail working, it's pretty painful16:31
jon_yno email?16:32
* kerio looks at modest16:32
kerioi can deal with that16:32
lardmannah, just keeps asking me to setup accounts, then I see the subject lines on the status bar as mail is delivered, just can't read it16:32
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lardmanI'd even swap and have Modest back :)16:32
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lardmanHow functional is Nemo these days?16:34
tadziknot really16:34
tadzikit looks nice, but too many things just don't work yet16:34
tadzikeven stuff like importing contacts from .vcfs, unless you import them one by one16:34
tadzikyou can call and text with it though, and browse the web16:35
lardmanI could live with that, or write something to do it for me16:35
jon_ylet's make something like iTunes so we can sync it with our proprietary desktop systems :)16:35
tadzikit's worth taking a look at, imho16:35
lardmantadzik: cool thanks16:36
jon_ydoes the Nokia Phone program thing that sits on the desktop actually work like itunes?16:37
* lardman wonders if/when Jolla will see the light of day16:37
lardmanjon_y: the sync tool?16:37
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jon_ythe PC suite thing16:37
lardmaniirc it syncs contacts with e.g. Outlook, but didn't do much more than that16:38
jon_ynemo needs to work with that :)16:38
lardmancontact sync'ing is terrible, mine are knackered after going through Google + Hotmail and being merged all over the shop16:38
lardmannot the Nokia sync program, just the whole process in general, and the way things don't automerge16:39
tadziklardman: oh, if you decide to hack on it, and if you're able to compile qmlcontacts, drop me a note ;)16:39
jon_yiirc there's an sqlite dump tool or something for the N90016:39
jon_yto grab contacts16:39
lardmantadzik: what's the problem with compiling it?16:40
jon_ymaybe that was android16:40
lardmanjon_y: it will also allow you to sync over BT iirc16:40
tadziklardman: probably a PEBKAC on my side, linking fails for me in the mer SDK16:40
lardmanwhich is how I moved my contacts from N900 to N950 originally16:40
jon_yok, BT to transfer contacts16:40
lardmantadzik: never did any userspace Mer work, was only ever kernel stuff trying to get powervr accel on the Galaxy tab, but will try to get back into it now my daughter is old enough that we can all get some sleep16:41
tadzikheh :)16:41
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lardmanamazing how I used to love coding into the early hours, now I would like to be asleep by 9 ;)16:41
tadzikheh. I stopped staying up late when I started waking up to work at ~716:42
lardmanFor those with N9(50), is Nokia drive terrible?16:43
lardmanI used it yesterday and on a few occasions along my route it would suddenly create roads that looked somewhat like a major trainstation terminus (with suitable instructions to turn left/right every 10s), very odd16:44
jon_yyou all need an annoying alarm clock to tell you to go to bed16:44
lardmanjon_y: I just fall asleep on the sofa, usually before my daughter does16:44
jon_yGPS? I've seen cheapo GPS asking the driver to hop off an overhead bridge into the highway beneath :)16:45
jon_yyeah, shortest way indeed16:45
lardmanthis was just random roads suddenly appearing, driving along the side of a field, so not even in a town/city16:46
lardmanright, meeting to go to, catch you all soon16:46
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vi_You can buy my n950 for 1000 euros.16:59
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solofightpeople - i have nokia n900 and trying to connect my bluetooth headset - when i switch on bluetooth onboth and search for new device in my n900 it aint showing the headset17:15
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solofightbut the same headset works with my samsung galaxy17:15
solofightthe headset is a samsung make - HM1200 which came with the galaxy mobile17:16
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solofightpeople - am i in the wrong room ?17:21
solofightif yes please point me to the right direction17:22
merlin1991solofight: you're in the right channel :)17:22
merlin1991though irc is a slow medium, people sometimes answer days later17:22
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merlin1991anyway, do you still have the stock obexd? or did you play with the bluetooth stack?17:23
solofightstock obexd ?17:24
solofightmerlin1991: ^17:24
merlin1991nokia provided :D17:24
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keriosolofight: are you sure you're following the pairing instructions for your headset?17:25
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solofightmerlin1991: no - i bought n900 from n guy and the hm1200 headset from another17:26
solofightkerio: switch on and search and connect !  isnt that it ! ?17:26
solofighttheres anything else involved generally ?17:27
solofighttis is the one17:27
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solofightwhen i click on new device - the circle spins on and on and on and on17:29
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solofightthough i have the headset next to it17:29
keriosolofight: there's usually a "hold a certain key while turning on" or something like that17:30
kerioto avoid people randomly connecting to your headsets17:30
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solofightkerio: :) muaahh17:38
solofightkerio: love you - thanks17:38
solofightworked like a charm17:38
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Siceloconnected to the Samsung without using the button though?17:41
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kerioSicelo: auto pairing on first power on? idk17:45
keriofreemangordon: neither HAM nor apt will willingly downgrade packages, and moving from -thumb to +thumb is a downgrade, in dpkg's eyes17:46
Palithere is really iptables disabled by default on n900?17:47
kerioand dropping the -testing to only add -thumb still wouldn't solve the problem17:47
kerioPali: i thought it wasn't even installed17:47
Palialso none config file for persistent configuration?17:47
Palikerio, so this should be fixed on my n900 :-)17:48
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Paliwhat is good solution for persistent iptables rules? (on maemo)17:48
Palidebian has package iptables-persistent17:48
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Paliok, ubuntu package iptables-persistent is simple, it has init.d script which call iptables-restore < /etc/iptables/rules.v4 (and also ip6tables) when file exists17:54
Paliscript is called on startup17:54
solofightSicelo: yeah thats what i was said17:54
Paligoing to repackage it and push to extras-devel17:55
kerioPali: neat17:57
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kerioPali: what are you using iptables for?17:57
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Paliagainst brute force ssh attact17:57
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solofighthow do i connect my n900 to my computer and send sms from PC ?18:01
SiceloPali: we're lucky to have NAT, or unlucky :-/18:02
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solofighthow do you people send sms from PC by connecting you n900 to PC ?18:05
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DocScrutinizer05solofight: see wiki page phonecontrol18:18
solofightDocScrutinizer05: thank you n it18:19
solofighton it*18:19
DocScrutinizer05solofight: or you go for vnc in any of it's flavours that works with slightly modified Hildon18:19
DocScrutinizer05(I never did vnc this way round, so can't help much)18:20
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solofightDocScrutinizer05: which is the best free call blocking application for n900 ?18:35
solofighti tried call blocker - it neva worked18:35
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solofightguys whats the best free call blocker application to use  for n900 ?18:42
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DocScrutinizer05I once tried contact ringtones by barisione, dunno if it also does blocking, though I'd think it has everything in place already18:51
DocScrutinizer05maybe if it doesn't yet block particular contacts' inbound calls, it could easily be augmented to do that18:52
DocScrutinizer05probably a proper GUI integration would be the most trouble in augmenting it18:53
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DocScrutinizer05(unless you do some botch and define a specific virtual ringtone filename to mean "please reject that call")18:54
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tadzikhey, any idea how to make the pictures/audio tracker not index what's on the uSD?19:18
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peetahtadzik: tracker-cfg19:19
solofightDocScrutinizer05: oh19:19
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tadzikpeetah: trying it out, thanks19:22
peetahcheck the NoWatchDirectory list19:22
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tadzikpeetah: could IndexMountedDirectories and/or IndexRemovableMedia just do the job?19:26
keriotadzik: i disabled both19:27
peetahtadzik: i guess so19:27
tadziknow, swap on uSD..19:27
peetahwould'nt disabling IndexMountedDirectory remove indexation of MyDocs ?19:30
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tadziklet's see19:30
tadzikI wonder how it defines "removable media"19:31
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keriopeetah: sure, but do you really want to index it?19:32
kerioit'll always index the nokia directories19:32
kerio(but not DCIM, so add that)19:32
peetahwhat about Music and Videos ?19:33
tadzikwell, I want it to index my music, I don't want it to index nemo mobile data ;)19:33
kerioyou mean .sounds and .videos19:33
keriothose are indexed19:33
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keriothey're in the WatchDirectory list or something like that19:33
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tadzikoh hm. Seems that nemo moved to some FS that maemo doesn't recognize19:34
peetahis there a place somewhere explaining what are the priorities given to all these options ?19:35
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tadzikI'm afraid to hear "in the source code" ;)19:35
tadzikaha, nemo's using ext4 now19:37
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DocScrutinizer05tadzik: afaik those options (as well as some aspects of NoWatchDir) are broken in stock trackerd. CSSU has a fix for trackerd (thanks javispedro)19:41
tadzikany opinions on swapset (the app)?19:42
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tadzikDocScrutinizer05: yeah, I'm on CSSU, testing I think19:42
DocScrutinizer05tadzik: KP should support ext419:43
tadzikheh, so I'd have to mangle with those tracker settings after I install it back19:43
DocScrutinizer05tadzik: NOT for rootfs though (it's a loadable module for ext4 afaik)19:44
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tadzikanyway, what are you guys using for swap on uSD business? Manual config mangling?19:44
DocScrutinizer05never tried that19:44
DocScrutinizer05I hate system crash on removing back cover19:44
ShadowJKI just have a that I run manually on each boot (once every 2 months?)19:45
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tadzikheh, understandable19:45
keriotadzik: /sbin/swapon /dev/mmcblk1p2 || /sbin/swapon /dev/mmcblk0p319:46
kerioin /etc/event.d/rcS-late19:46
kerioinstead of /sbin/swapon -a || echo "Swap failure" or whatever19:46
tadzikkerio: how does it work out with the "removing back cover"issue?19:46
tadzikiirc n900 doesn't see the uSD if backcover's off19:47
keriotadzik: i have an otterbox19:47
ShadowJKit crashes if swap is enabled on usd and backcover is removed19:47
keriothe case around the n900 in this pic19:47
tadzikcrashes as in "doing a kernel picnic"?19:48
keriotadzik: maybe!19:48
tadziklet's check19:49
kerioi have a sheevaplug with swap on a usb drive, and disconnecting the drive causes awful stuff19:49
keriotadzik: make sure you have lots of stuff in swap19:49
tadzikah, so it won't crash otherwise? Then it's not much of an issue19:49
kerioit will19:49
kerioyou basically deleted a bunch of stuff in ram19:49
tadzikso one should just swapoff before removing it19:50
tadziksounds easy to forget :19:50
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keriohow often do you people open the backcover anyway?19:51
ShadowJKseldom :)19:51
DocScrutinizer05tadzik: it will PANIC19:51
ShadowJKI always assumed it was random processes crashing with Bus Fault, and watchdogs resetting device19:52
kerioDocScrutinizer05: are you sure it's a proper panic and not just a bunch of atrocious errors when the kernel tries to recover the swapped pages?19:52
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DocScrutinizer05I guess [kswapd ] will trow error19:52
keriotadzik: have you checked?19:53
DocScrutinizer05maybe even too heavy for proper PANIC ;-P19:53
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DocScrutinizer05simple test, kerio: open ssh over WLAN, do tail -f /var/log/syslog, then remove back cover19:54
tadzikkerio: not yet19:54
ShadowJKActually once upon a time a server I managed had the harddrive ripped out by a dc technician for unexplainable reasons.  alot of crap stopped working, but the main server process kept living because it was already memory resident, and didn't do much I/O19:55
tadzikuh wtf, swap on nemo seems to be 8 MBs?19:55
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: probably kswapd will barf up next time it tries to access swap19:55
DocScrutinizer05whenever that happens19:55
ShadowJKiirc anything needing a swapin just gets killed19:56
ShadowJKso phys ram gets freed up at an astonishingly fast rate :-)19:56
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i have an otterbox, i need a team of engineers to remove the backcovercover first19:56
* DocScrutinizer05 hands kerio a magnet19:57
ShadowJKdoes keyboard slide out with otterbox?19:58
kerioShadowJK: yup19:58
kerioit's divided in two parts19:58
keriootherwise it would be kinda useless19:58
tadzikI have a similar thing, came with my N900 in the Nokia box19:58
tadzikit's pretty shitty though, too loose19:58
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: maybe "55:23:99 kernel: [kswapd] OOOPS!  IO error on <dev> swap!  ... bla dump dump bla ...19:59
kerioShadowJK: it even has a tiny crevice on the part that ends up over the keyboard, so your fingers can fit better on the top row of the keys20:00
DocScrutinizer05NB system "stays up" after OOPS20:00
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: is there a way to make it panic after OOPS?20:00
DocScrutinizer05yes, afaik there's a kernel parameter you can set, like panic-on-oops or sth20:01
kerioecho "30000 30001 30002 30003" > /proc/sys/vm/lowmem_allowed_uids wait, what20:01
kerio# 30000 is messagebus, 30001 could be used by Matchbox20:02
keriomy highest PID is 175720:02
DocScrutinizer05could be?20:02
DocScrutinizer05check friggin files in /etc!20:02
keriothis is rcS-late20:02
DocScrutinizer05kerio: it's UID, not PID20:02
kerio30001 is haldaemon here20:03
kerioand 30003 is sshd20:03
keriowow, that's actually pretty neat, sshd will work even in stupid memory conditions20:03
DocScrutinizer05it won't get killed by OOM20:04
keriono, that's "never denied allocation in lowmem"20:04
DocScrutinizer05doesn't mean it will work flawlessly20:04
kerio(apart by lack of memory, i mean)20:04
DocScrutinizer05what do you think does "deny allocation" mean?20:05
keriobelow a certain threshold of free ram, malloc() returns NULL?20:06
DocScrutinizer05I'd guess it rather triggers OOM, since many apps don't behave on malloc() fail20:06
DocScrutinizer05maybe not20:07
DocScrutinizer05whatever, doesn't matter20:07
kerioDocScrutinizer05: no real need to OOM kill those, they'll just blow up with a sigsegv :)20:07
DocScrutinizer05also OOM kicks in way earler than malloc() fail, since OOM tries to keep important stuff alive, while malloc() fails for everybody once there's not enough memory left20:08
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DocScrutinizer05no, many progs are poorly written and will spin in an endless loop trying to allocate enough mem20:09
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DocScrutinizer05typical case: install global error handler to catch all errors. In that error handler a) forget to disable error-handler, and b) instantiate an object20:13
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tadzikkerio: just checked. It does a Surprise REboot20:13
DocScrutinizer05(or b) do any other malloc() )20:13
keriotadzik: immediately?20:13
tadzikkerio: when I launched Opera. It may have not noticed before20:13
tadzikthere were like 2 MBs taken of 102420:13
keriotadzik: well, now you know what happens if you remove a stick of ram from a live computer20:14
tadzikyeah :)20:14
keriotadzik: what's bootreason now?20:14
keriocat /proc/bootreason20:15
DocScrutinizer05what might it be? really I can't guess ;-P20:15
tadzikkerio: rw_rst20:15
tadzikerm, sw20:15
DocScrutinizer05OOOH *surprise*!20:15
tadziksounds like "software reset"20:15
tadzikor Supwise Reset20:16
DocScrutinizer05now what do we know?20:16
tadzikcomputers don't like having ram taken away20:16
DocScrutinizer05it's neither been hw_watchdog nor powerbutton that caused boot20:17
keriohw_watchdog is dsme?20:17
DocScrutinizer05dsme is sw_rst20:17
kerioyeah but "reboot" is also sw_rst20:17
DocScrutinizer05exactly ;-P20:17
keriowhat about kernel panic?20:17
keriook, so we know nothing20:18
DocScrutinizer05try sp-oops-extract /dev/mtd220:19
DocScrutinizer05anybody know if Volkswagen used meego for their back-seat-entertainment systems?20:21
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i don't have sp-oops-extract20:22
keriowhich package is it in?20:22
DocScrutinizer05apt-cache search sp-oops-extract20:22
keriooh, it's apparently sp-oops-extract20:22
keriohow convenient20:22
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i can't authenticate packages from the tools repo, is it a known problem?20:23
DocScrutinizer05If I been able to conveniently ignore the warning, then maybe it's "known"20:24
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tadzikis there any particular reason why stuff is not in repos?20:25
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keriotadzik: ask Pali20:26
tadzikPali: question: is there any particular reason why packages are not in the repos?20:26
Paliyes 2 problems20:26
Pali1) more apps depends on kernel-feature-something and these "provides" are only provided by kernel-*-flasher packages20:27
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Paliu-boot replacing existing kernel20:27
Pali2) needs proper packaging20:28
Paliproblem 2) should be fixed (it conflicts all old u-boot packages)20:28
Paliand problem 1): I have not tested patch which ask user if really want to flash kernel...20:28
Paliwhen I finish 1) I will push u-boot to extras-devel20:29
Palitadzik, but now I do not have time for u-boot...20:29
tadzikokay, understood20:29
DocScrutinizer05Pali: let me know if that patch actually works both in apt-get and HAM, I'd love to fix this problem on tsome other pkgs20:30
PaliDoc, it patching fiasco-image-update20:30
Paliit is shell script20:30
Palibut I did not tested it yet...20:30
DocScrutinizer05>>patch which ask user if really want to flash kernel...20:30
Paliyes, because -flasher packages using that fiasco- script for flashing...20:31
DocScrutinizer05either it rises a hildon-Requester which goes unnoticed on remote ssh, or it tries to read from stdin which doesn't work in HAM obviously20:32
DocScrutinizer05one of the main reasons why some packages are supposed to get installed by HAM only, while some others will fail terribly when not installed via apt-get (none of latter class known yet)20:33
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DocScrutinizer05NB the problem could get fixed easily, if we could find out whether we are in interactive shell or not20:36
keriothe problem could get fixed easily if HAM supported debconf20:37
DocScrutinizer05or climb up the parent tree and check for any of "HAM" | "apt-get"20:37
DocScrutinizer05kerio: while I got no friggin clue what's debconf, I doubt HAM is supposed to support it. If it actually should and that would help for this (and other) problem(s), you're free to open a ticket or even provide a patch20:39
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's the debian way of asking stuff to the user while installing20:41
kerioyou can use different frontends20:41
DocScrutinizer05no, debconf IS a frontend20:42
kerio"debconf is a backend database, with a frontend that talks to it and presents an interface to the user"20:43
DocScrutinizer05debconf runs any *special* program that talks debconf-protocol via stdin/stdout20:43
keriothose are the frontends!20:44
DocScrutinizer05man 1 debconf20:44
DocScrutinizer05bs, those are called backend20:44
DocScrutinizer05frontend is the "GUI"20:44
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kerioanyway, nobody uses the debconf binary, it's mostly ran by dpkg/apt/whatever20:45
kerioit's neat because the same package can get a text-mode configuration interface while installing from apt-get, and a GUI when installing from, say, synaptic20:46
DocScrutinizer05and how TF is debconf supposed to know the difference? when called by apt-get or synaptic?20:48
DocScrutinizer05unless told about the fact by either of both explicitly20:49
DocScrutinizer05we wouldn't need any debconf to tell our pre-install script via $env to either use a requester or stdin/readline to query user's choice20:50
DocScrutinizer05we just could try to find an $env that is unique to interactive shell20:51
DocScrutinizer05or check if stdin and stdout are like they should on interactive shell20:52
kerioDocScrutinizer05: apt-get already tells debconf :)20:53
DocScrutinizer05or, alternatively, find any $env that's unique to HAM's child processes20:53
DocScrutinizer05kerio: don't create noise, suggest a patch!20:54
DocScrutinizer05evidently on fremantle apt-get doesn't tell debconf since we don't have debconf20:55
DocScrutinizer05and I still fail to see how debconf would open a proper hildon requester when run under HAM20:56
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: well, HAM would tell debconf to use a graphical frontend20:57
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DocScrutinizer05and how's that compatible with our current pre-install scripts and why we need that at all, instead of implementing it into HAM instead of an interface to debconf?20:59
kerioit's compatible with our current pre-install scripts because those will just keep working as they do now20:59
kerioand we should do that because debconf is The One True Way to do stuff like this20:59
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DocScrutinizer05go ahead, damn! provide a patch!21:00
DocScrutinizer05don't forget to evaluate size increase of binary vs benefit it brings21:00
piggzlo *21:00
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: btw all our pre-install scripts that request user interaction do that via hildon requester already. I don't see how implementing some debconf monster into HAM will "fix" that or just guarantee compatibility. It's apt-get from terminal/shell that needs a fix for the requester showing up on device screen and not via stdout/stdin. Can debconf do this? how? (no, it can't since it got no clue about how our pre-inst scripts call that21:06
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keriohm, how is the requester called?21:06
DocScrutinizer05hmm, why do you ask that just now, instead of before you start spamming?21:07
keriooh, just maemo-confirm-text?21:10
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keriofreemangordon: *poke*21:31
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DocScrutinizer05[GENERAL NOTICE] if you're using CSSU-T, do NOT use "update all" in HAM, you need to first install/update the opername widget, only *then* go update the rest21:51
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RST38hwhat is -T?21:53
RST38hand why is it making us jump through loops?=)21:53
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kerioRST38h: because HAM is silly and there's been a mistake in the packaging of a package21:59
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infobotDocScrutinizer: infobot joined!22:01
infobot:), kerio22:01
kerio(:, infobot22:01
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ajf_how do carriers detect tethering which isn't allowed in your plan, and how easy is it for them to do this on my N900?22:11
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kerioajf_: it's kind of impossible to do on the N900, unless they do DPI22:13
kerioand even then...22:13
ajf_or check the User-Agent header perhaps, since HTTP does go through some transparent proxy22:14
ajf_but I read iDevices phones either report it to the carrier, or they use an alternative APN22:14
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ajf_so the N900 won't do anything like that?22:14
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kerioajf_: probably not22:20
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ShadowJKAlthough when you tether through bluetooth dun or through usb cable, the pc itself establishes a new connection through N900. The computwer decides the apn, and if N900 is already connected to mobile internet, a second connection would be noticed, of course :)22:34
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ShadowJKThrough wifi mobile hotspot thingy, N900 shares its own connection22:35
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kerioif you only do proper forwarding and no "tether" bullshit (which is something that i only began to hear once the iphone was out, because apparently mobile phones in the US are stupidly locked down) then there's really nothing the carrier can say in response to "well, i have a n900"22:37
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ShadowJKSometimes you can see shit fly across the network that could only originat from a windows pc :)22:40
DocScrutinizer05[GENERAL NOTICE] if you're using CSSU-T, do NOT use "update all" in HAM, you need to first install/update the opername widget, only *then* go update the rest22:41
ajf_oh, I forgot it shows up as a USB modem so you choose the APN in NetworkManager22:43
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kerioShadowJK: qemu22:45
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; is there no way to make ham do that itself22:47
DocScrutinizer05ask merlin1991, it seems the way it's packaged now there's none except postponing cssu-t update rollout (something we should've considered)22:48
DocScrutinizer05but as usual merlin1991 was trigger-happy22:48
ShadowJKHow about adding it in the description then, iirc you can have a "news" thinygy that shows what's new22:49
merlin1991ShadowJK: yeah that would have been a good idea22:49
ShadowJKin ham22:49
DocScrutinizer05yep, nice idea, but I am afraid you have to convince merlin1991 about that22:49
ShadowJKAnd then in next updates also make it fix stuff for people that did update all22:50
DocScrutinizer05we even could've implemented a simple abort condition in cssu-t pre-install22:50
DocScrutinizer05if only merlin1991 would've allowed testing of release prior to public rollout22:51
* DocScrutinizer05 now prepares for a nightshift22:52
ShadowJKI'd think that priority would be: temporarily disable/remove this, fix it so that it doesn't mess up, put it back, add scripts or whatever is needed to repair situation for people who already upgraded, push out thst?22:54
DocScrutinizer05luckily recovery is rather simple:  quit ham, wait 5 min, start ham, wait, do update opername, quit ham, wait 5 min, start ham, wait, do cssu-t update22:54
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: but basically I of course agree with you22:55
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DocScrutinizer05seems general notion is cssu-t users have to cope with minor nuissance like that22:56
ShadowJKOh so it eventually fixes itself with a user pressing update whenever the ! update icon starts flashing?22:57
ShadowJKand what is it recovering from? Does operator name just vanish while things are "broken"?22:57
DocScrutinizer05there's some conflict that doesn't allow cssu-t to install22:57
ShadowJKWell yes, as "testing" implies.. But likewise automatic fixes and automatic recoveries of mistakes could be part of it ;)22:58
DocScrutinizer05yep, sure. Just merlin1991 is already busy with other 'more imprtant' stuff (uBoot)22:59
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DocScrutinizer05while I'm trying to clean up the mess... :-S23:00
merlin1991ShadowJK: the operator-name package name changes, but in order to update cleanly you need a package of operator name with a version higher than 3.023:00
merlin1991which the dummy update provides23:01
merlin1991ShadowJK: the "automated" way would have been to depend on the dummy package aswell, but then the mp would break if someone "as they ususally should" attempts to remove the dummy23:01
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merlin1991I had the choice between a 2 step upgrade or a useless pkg on the device23:01
DocScrutinizer05or an assert in pre-install "INSTALL OPERNAME FIRST, DUMBASS! RTFM!"23:02
ShadowJKCouldn't a future upgrade have removed the useless pkg?23:03
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DocScrutinizer05[GENERAL NOTICE] if you're using CSSU-T, do NOT use "update all" in HAM, you need to first install/update the opername widget, only *then* go update the rest. Read ff23:04
ShadowJKDunno, "rtfm" sounds kinda silly when the manual isn't bundled with the update23:04
ShadowJKuser gets flashing icon23:04
kerioDocScrutinizer05: is it an automated message?23:04
DocScrutinizer05sure, self augmenting msg23:05
DocScrutinizer05no, i'm just bored23:05
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: was a cooking receipe only23:06
DocScrutinizer05I'd never use words like DUMBASS either on such a notice ;-P23:07
DocScrutinizer05actually if I wasn't concerned about cssu QA and thus read #maemo-ssu, I'd be one of those dumbass users myself23:08
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DocScrutinizer05[2012-09-11 14:54:37] <DocScrutinizer05> merlin1991: unfortunate you didn't allow prior testing of testing23:10
DocScrutinizer05[2012-09-11 14:55:02] <DocScrutinizer05> merlin1991: I gather copying of repo wasn't that simple23:10
ShadowJKwhat's with dummy pkg anyhow23:11
kerioShadowJK: a wrong initial packaging of connui-home-cellular23:11
DocScrutinizer05don't ask me23:11
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merlin1991NIN101: ping23:21
NIN101merlin1991: pong23:22
merlin1991NIN101: I'm attemting to use your rescue OS for something, but I'm failing at the step where I ssh / telnet in from my pc, I ran the usbnetworkign enabler script, but when I use telnet to nothing happens23:23
ShadowJKso it can't be fixed in steps?23:23
NIN101merlin1991: run telnetd23:23
NIN101just by typing "telnetd"23:23
merlin1991what's the login?23:24
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merlin1991NIN101: any way to transfer a file back over the networking?23:27
keriomerlin1991: is there uuencode/uudecode?23:28
NIN101"tcpsvd -v 21  ftpd -w" enables anonymous down- and uploads everywhere.23:28
NIN101or use netcat or so...23:28
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