IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2012-08-31

*** brzys has quit IRC00:00
*** FireFly has quit IRC00:01
*** FireFly has joined #maemo00:01
*** brzys has joined #maemo00:02
*** xmlich02_ has joined #maemo00:02
*** ZogG_ has joined #maemo00:10
*** teotwaki__ has quit IRC00:12
*** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC00:13
*** chenca has quit IRC00:23
*** sambo7 has quit IRC00:27
*** diverse_izzue has joined #maemo00:32
*** andre__ has quit IRC00:42
*** vi__ has quit IRC00:49
*** pavlz_ has quit IRC00:55
*** trx has quit IRC01:01
*** trx has joined #maemo01:01
DocScrutinizer05kerio: neither01:03
*** Darkchaos has quit IRC01:06
*** zeq has quit IRC01:09
*** setanta has quit IRC01:10
*** diverse_izzue has quit IRC01:13
*** ced117 has quit IRC01:14
*** xmlich02_ has quit IRC01:16
*** konelix_ has joined #maemo01:22
*** zeq has joined #maemo01:23
*** konelix has quit IRC01:24
*** ferdna has quit IRC01:26
*** konelix_ has quit IRC01:31
*** markinfo has quit IRC01:37
*** drussell has joined #maemo01:44
*** ZogG_ has quit IRC01:47
*** mvp_ has quit IRC01:51
*** hardaker has quit IRC01:54
*** zeq has quit IRC01:59
*** valeriusM has quit IRC02:01
*** valeriusN has left #maemo02:07
*** jhb has quit IRC02:12
*** _xnt14 has quit IRC02:29
*** _xnt14 has joined #maemo02:32
*** AndrewX192 has quit IRC02:50
*** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo02:50
*** githogori has joined #maemo02:52
*** M4rtinK has quit IRC03:00
*** idoru has quit IRC03:02
*** AndrewX192 has quit IRC03:05
*** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo03:05
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo03:06
*** VDVsx has quit IRC03:10
*** drussell has quit IRC03:18
*** otep has quit IRC03:20
*** valerius has joined #maemo03:22
*** valeriusN has joined #maemo03:23
*** nox- has quit IRC03:24
*** otep has joined #maemo03:26
*** hardaker has joined #maemo03:30
*** valerius has quit IRC03:37
*** valeriusN has left #maemo03:44
*** valeriusN has joined #maemo03:44
*** auenfx4 has joined #maemo03:44
*** Gh0sty_ has joined #maemo03:48
*** idoru has joined #maemo03:48
*** robbiethe1st has joined #maemo03:50
*** skope_ has joined #maemo03:50
*** valerius has joined #maemo03:53
*** trx has quit IRC03:53
*** Kilroo has quit IRC03:53
*** auenf has quit IRC03:53
*** Gh0sty has quit IRC03:53
*** elninja has quit IRC03:53
*** Psi has quit IRC03:53
*** malin has quit IRC03:53
*** skope has quit IRC03:53
*** kov has quit IRC03:53
*** joppuyo has quit IRC03:53
*** Gh0sty_ is now known as Gh0sty03:53
*** Ken-Young has joined #maemo03:55
*** trx has joined #maemo03:57
*** Kilroo has joined #maemo03:57
*** elninja has joined #maemo03:57
*** Psi has joined #maemo03:57
*** malin has joined #maemo03:57
*** joppuyo has joined #maemo03:57
GeneralAntillesDoes this remind anybody else of something?
*** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo03:58
Ken-YoungI had a perfectly working Maemo 5 scratchbox SDK running on my laptop, but foolishly I "upgraded" to the most recent version of Ubuntu, and now the Hildon widgets in my scratchbox environment no longer work properly.   Mouse clicks are ignored, pulldown menus only partiially appear, etc.   Does anyone know how a problem like this can be fixed, or how old a version of Ubuntu I would need to install to have the Maemo 5 SDK work properly?03:58
*** hardaker has quit IRC04:10
*** Ian--- has joined #maemo04:12
*** Ian-- has quit IRC04:14
LaoLang_coolPut n900's battery out for a long time, then put it in and start n900, n900 will prompt to set date and time04:26
LaoLang_coolMy question is: how to change the prompt to another default date, time and the time zone?04:27
LaoLang_coolSo I don't need to adjust the time zone next time it prompts04:28
*** AndrewX192 has quit IRC04:36
*** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo04:36
*** AndrewX192 has quit IRC04:36
*** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo04:36
*** valerius has quit IRC04:43
*** brzys has quit IRC04:47
*** valeriusN has left #maemo04:50
*** valeriusN has joined #maemo04:50
*** TTilus has quit IRC04:50
*** flo_lap has joined #maemo04:55
*** kov has joined #maemo04:55
*** florian has quit IRC04:59
*** uen| has joined #maemo05:01
*** valerius has joined #maemo05:02
*** uen has quit IRC05:04
*** uen| is now known as uen05:04
*** TTilus has joined #maemo05:09
*** radic has quit IRC05:19
*** radic_ has joined #maemo05:19
*** radic_ is now known as radic05:19
*** ponyofdeath has joined #maemo05:31
*** NishanthMenon has joined #maemo05:37
*** NishanthMenon has quit IRC05:37
*** NishanthMenon__ has quit IRC05:37
*** SmilyOrg has joined #maemo05:45
*** Guest49322 has quit IRC05:49
*** Jucato has quit IRC06:08
*** robbiethe1st has quit IRC06:09
*** fredrinLap has joined #maemo06:13
*** kimitake_idle has quit IRC06:38
*** joga has quit IRC07:03
*** joga has joined #maemo07:04
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo07:07
*** VDVsx has quit IRC07:11
*** marainein_ has joined #maemo07:21
*** marainein has quit IRC07:22
*** hardaker has joined #maemo07:23
*** fredrinLap has quit IRC07:23
*** marainein_ has quit IRC07:24
*** hardaker has quit IRC07:25
*** ALoGeNo has joined #maemo08:03
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo08:14
*** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC08:14
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo08:14
*** LaoLang_coo_ has joined #maemo08:14
*** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC08:17
*** flo_lap has quit IRC08:21
*** shadeslayer has quit IRC08:33
*** shadeslayer has joined #maemo08:36
*** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC08:38
*** diverse_izzue has joined #maemo08:41
*** ferdna has joined #maemo08:46
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo08:49
*** e-yes has quit IRC08:58
*** Vanadis__ has quit IRC09:05
kerioLaoLang_coo_: don't remove the battery, easy09:11
kerioi mean, duh09:11
LaoLang_coo_kerio, but I need to change battery when it runs out of the capacity09:14
*** VDVsx has quit IRC09:15
*** kgu has quit IRC09:16
*** murrayc has joined #maemo09:17
kerioswap them quickly then :)09:21
kerioeven if the bupbat is thoroughly fucked, there are still capacitors that will resist a second or two09:21
*** diverse_izzue has quit IRC09:23
LaoLang_coo_kerio, ok, I'm looking for another way :)09:23
keriomy timezone is set correctly09:26
kerioi mean, when i have to set the time09:27
kerioat that point, i just tap "save" and then open gpsrecorder09:27
*** hardaker has joined #maemo09:27
*** hardaker has quit IRC09:30
LaoLang_coo_kerio, you are lucky09:32
kerioi mean that theoretically of course09:34
keriomy bupbat still works =D09:34
*** ferdna has quit IRC09:34
*** mvp_ has joined #maemo09:37
*** MacDrunk has joined #maemo09:39
*** hardaker has joined #maemo09:40
*** valeriusN has left #maemo09:41
*** eMHa has quit IRC09:43
*** MacDrunk has left #maemo09:43
*** trx has quit IRC09:47
*** jhb has joined #maemo09:47
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo09:50
*** geaaru has joined #maemo09:51
*** hardaker has quit IRC09:51
*** zap_ has joined #maemo09:56
*** MacDrunk has joined #maemo09:58
*** MacDrunk has left #maemo09:58
*** lbt has quit IRC10:03
*** florian has joined #maemo10:08
*** florian has quit IRC10:08
*** florian has joined #maemo10:08
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo10:10
*** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC10:10
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo10:10
*** calvaris has joined #maemo10:11
*** OkropNick has joined #maemo10:13
*** eMHa has joined #maemo10:13
*** florentia has quit IRC10:15
*** radic has quit IRC10:15
*** Ian-- has joined #maemo10:21
*** pcfe has joined #maemo10:21
*** Ian--- has quit IRC10:23
*** freemangordon has quit IRC10:25
*** freemangordon has joined #maemo10:26
*** radic has joined #maemo10:27
*** utanapischti has quit IRC10:29
*** utanapischti has joined #maemo10:29
*** valerius has quit IRC10:30
*** calvaris has left #maemo10:30
*** florentia has joined #maemo10:31
*** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC10:33
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo10:34
*** marainein has joined #maemo10:48
*** valerius has joined #maemo10:48
kerioEstel_: btw, have you tried ~n900-full-reset to fix the charger silliness?11:00
*** em has quit IRC11:06
*** valerius has quit IRC11:10
*** livelace has joined #maemo11:12
*** e-yes has joined #maemo11:14
*** jrocha has joined #maemo11:16
*** Estel_ is now known as dxgxcg11:17
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, n900-full-reset is when the user presses the PWRON (power-on) button for 8 seconds and removes the battery in the next 8 seconds, the TPS65950 enters NO SUPPLY state instead of BACKUP state, even if a valid backup battery is present. In such a situation, the backup domain registers are also reset, along with the VRRTC domain registers.11:17
*** dxgxcg is now known as Estel_11:17
Estel_good point, never tried it11:17
*** em has joined #maemo11:20
edheldilHi all, since yesterday I have several times experienced problem with my n900, that SIM card was disconnected and message displayed about "all telephone functions disabled". It always happened (I think) when I was carrying the phone in pocket. Is it a known terminal bug with n9000s, or is it more likely just a bad SIM?11:24
infobotedheldil meant: Hi all, since yesterday I have several times experienced problem with my n900, that SIM card was disconnected and message displayed about "all telephone functions disabled". It always happened (I think) when I was carrying the phone in pocket. Is it a kno...11:24
edheldilthat was really helpful, infobot :-D11:25
Macermine has the same problem11:26
jacekowskiedheldil: it may be just mechanical issue11:27
jacekowskiedheldil: of sim not making good contact11:27
Macersome have had luck by carefully bending the pins upwards11:27
jacekowskithough, it may be problem with rapuyama11:27
Macersome by folding a piece of apper and shoving it between the cover and the battery11:27
Macerand some (like mine) it is a hardware issue11:27
jacekowskiyou can check if you can get at interface to rapuyama when that happens11:27
*** valerius has joined #maemo11:31
*** Psi has quit IRC11:32
*** Psi has joined #maemo11:32
*** sheepbat has quit IRC11:33
*** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC11:36
*** valeriusN has joined #maemo11:37
*** sheepbat has joined #maemo11:39
edheldiljacekowski:  what's that?11:42
keriorapuyama is the actual phone in the n90011:45
*** BCMM has joined #maemo11:45
edheldiland how can I check that I can get to rapuyama? I might be able to test with multimeter's probes somewhere accessible, but that's about the extent of my options11:50
edheldileasily accessible11:50
jacekowskithere is a command that allows you to get rapuyama AT interface11:51
jacekowskiand then you can check if it responds to at commands11:52
*** M4rtinK has joined #maemo11:53
*** Ionakka has joined #maemo11:56
*** ced117 has joined #maemo11:58
*** ced117 has quit IRC11:58
*** ced117 has joined #maemo11:58
*** lbt has joined #maemo11:58
*** lbt has quit IRC11:58
*** lbt has joined #maemo11:58
*** livelace has quit IRC12:04
*** hazchemix has joined #maemo12:18
*** shamus has quit IRC12:19
*** AndrewX192 has quit IRC12:19
*** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo12:19
*** AndrewX192 has quit IRC12:19
*** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo12:19
*** shamus has joined #maemo12:20
*** beford has quit IRC12:27
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo12:27
*** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo12:27
edheldiljacekowski:  thanks12:29
*** vdv has quit IRC12:52
*** ivgalvez has joined #maemo12:55
*** em has quit IRC12:57
*** Ian--- has joined #maemo12:57
*** Ian-- has quit IRC12:59
*** croppa has joined #maemo13:00
DocScrutinizer05then type (blind?) 'AT<enter>' and it shall answer 'OK'13:04
DocScrutinizer05at+cfun? might help too13:04
DocScrutinizer05showing current operating mode of rapu13:04
DocScrutinizer05dafaq, my N900 has black screen :-/13:07
*** trx has joined #maemo13:08
DocScrutinizer05Aug 31 12:06:04 IroN900 mce[814]: Error sending with reply to Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken.13:08
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05 and Estel_13:14
ivgalvezabout your recent discussion13:14
ivgalvezfor sure not the last one13:14
*** lxp1 has quit IRC13:15
ivgalvezEstel_: "DocScrutinizer05, You're also warned officially. There actually is ongoing process of revieving Your mental ability to be chanop in *any* Maemo channel. Of cours,e due to your constaint threat of kick/ban/whatever pathetic, while You lsoe Your nerves during discussion. just for sake of your contributions to being chanop - get a deep breath, go for a walk..." ---> This is not true, there13:16
ivgalvezisn't any official process in progress  to review chanop position of DocScrutinizer0513:16
ivgalvezHowever, I must say that both of you are absolutely unpolite13:16
ivgalvezthis is a discussion forum not a tavern13:17
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer05: "so I declare busybox-power as a ban'able subjext in this chan just for you" --> This threat is not fair13:17
ivgalvezPlease chill out13:18
* Luke-Jr notes that X-Fade owns #maemo and DocScrutinizer05 owns #harmattan, and anyone else making threats regarding chanop status is just a power-grab.13:19
*** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo13:19
*** LaoLang_coo_ has quit IRC13:20
edheldilDocScrutinizer05:  will try that next time it breaks, thank you13:21
ivgalvezEstel_: if you want to present any accusation about DocScrutinizer05 abusing chanop position you must send a message to Community mailing list instead of PM me13:22
ivgalvezEstel_"well, for me it isn't, and higher authorities will investigate it - along with other evidence of DocScrutinizer05 abuse (which was already considered valid)." --> This is again an invalid assumption, you must present any allegation you consider in the open.13:23
*** Hoolxi has quit IRC13:23
*** Hoolxi has joined #maemo13:24
*** iDont has joined #maemo13:24
*** GNUton-BNC has quit IRC13:24
DocScrutinizer05ivgalvez: you can safely ignore all that, it's just because Estel_ doen't get how IRC works13:24
*** GNUton-BNC has joined #maemo13:25
*** MrPingu has joined #maemo13:26
*** lizardo has joined #maemo13:28
ivgalvezanyway I beg you all to relax a bit13:31
ivgalvezand lowdown the tone13:32
ZogG_laptopi see it's going on on all chans13:32
ZogG_laptopTMO and here :P13:32
ZogG_laptopi think some people should stop being childish and play idiotic games.13:33
*** MikaT has quit IRC13:33
ZogG_laptopand DocScrutinizer05 was kicking and banning people for few years (mostly threating), but he is ok with being chanop most times. so i think if it's only one person that has problems with him, as well as same person having and searching the problem with others. so it's not Doc a problem at all :)13:34
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: :-*13:34
Estel_ivgalvez, so, you preffer me to start flame war with irc logs aetc on mailing list...13:34
Estel_Instead of writing it to people with higher authority over maemo's irc?13:35
Estel_fair enough13:35
*** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC13:35
*** MikaT has joined #maemo13:35
Estel_ivgalvez, if that's what You want, no problems, but I doubt that we need Council at all, if we need to do everything on our own, all the time.13:35
Estel_if You preffer it like that, i'll post it into mailing list - including Your explanation why You don't want to remove him from chanop *yet*.13:36
Estel_(quoted from PM's)13:36
Estel_I hardly feel it approriate, but You don't leave me other choice.13:36
Estel_ivgalvez ^^^13:36
ZogG_laptopoh noooooooo13:37
ivgalvezEstel_ now you're going too far13:37
ZogG_laptopivgalvez: i think the best way is just to grab popcorn :P13:37
ivgalvezI haven't said "I don't want to remove him from chanop yet"13:38
ZogG_laptophe made a fool of himself once, let him do it again13:38
ivgalvezEstel_ You are trying to conduct your personal war against DocScrutinizer05 for IRC power since the very first day you were selected for Council and you were told by the rest of the members to stop that and that you were trying to abuse your position13:40
Estel_ivgalvez, as far as I remember, my "personal war" was just like now - mentioning abuse and wanting to take official action about it13:40
Estel_now, You're councilor.13:40
Estel_if You write me, using Pm, one thing (about how you agree, but don't want to do it in hard times of tranformation), and come here, to write another things13:41
Estel_it's unfair, IMO13:41
Estel_if You're begging for transparency, i'll give it to You.13:41
Estel_now, you're trying to show me in bad light, ignoring our previous conversations.13:41
ivgalvezI told you that I thought it wasn't time, with such big challenges ahead, to start such a fight13:42
Estel_I acknowledge that for Council, Irc chanop management is totally rogue - i.e, it's left for people that have chanop now to do whatever they want, without any consequences. I'll hapilly comfort that with things you have written before13:42
Estel_should I quote?"13:42
Luke-Jrthe Council has no authority over the IRC channels, kthx13:42
ivgalveznot that I wanted to remove DocScrutinizer0513:42
Estel_"It's always the same with this guy [ DocScrutinizer05 ], i'm bored with that". then, comes part about hard times.13:42
Estel_X-Fade told us, that he is willing to give Council rights over IRc management13:43
Estel_as he is founder13:43
Estel_leaving cooperation with Nokia.13:43
ivgalvezEstel_: BULLSHIT!!! that was referring to discussions about whatr can be included in CSSU and whatnot13:43
Estel_You know what? Leaving diplomacy aside, i'm tired of this bullshit, I can hapilly live with fucked up IRC stuffed with mad chanops, or without irc channel at all.13:43
*** murrayc has quit IRC13:44
Estel_ivgalvez, OK - I'll post whole, unaltered PM's, for people to judge13:44
Estel_if Council doesn't want to touch it, it's not my problem, too13:44
Estel_just don't complaion, when people rise doubts about Council doing *any* thing, at all.13:44
Estel_what You have done here, is essentially and literally ensuring abusive chanop, that he will be left to do whatever he want.13:45
Estel_I'mtired of this bullshit enough, to declare this topic void and null in my personal book.13:45
ivgalvezthat's also not true13:45
Estel_I'm not talking about intentions - just about results13:45
Estel_whatever, not my problem anyway13:45
ivgalvezI haven't give any abusive power to any one13:45
DocScrutinizer05if only this one line would result in appropriate consequences taken13:46
Estel_yea, it's not Council responsibility. It's X-Fade. The problem is that he is LEAVING. even before that, he agreed to remove chanops, if asked by Council.13:46
ZogG_laptopif everyone around you are wrong, maybe the problem is you?13:46
DocScrutinizer05incorrrect, learn2IRC13:46
Estel_Now, he wanted to cooperate with Council about give all administrative tools, which Council, of course, refused to accept - as with every thing that require responsibility13:46
DocScrutinizer05protip: /cs help13:46
Estel_my problem with Council - Council doesn't want to take *any* responsibility about *anything* at all, ivgalvez. results:" everytrhing is left as rogue13:47
DocScrutinizer05I.E. chan founder is primary responsible of a chan13:47
Estel_if official maemo's IRc channels are not Council responsibility, who the fuck is responsible for it?13:47
DocScrutinizer05but hey, it13:47
Estel_founder is LEAVING13:47
Estel_X-Fade is founder13:47
Estel_he want to pass rights to Council13:47
Estel_|Council doesn't want to take it13:47
Estel_results - no one is maintaining it, DocScrutinizer05 and other pathetic egomaniacs are happy13:48
ZogG_laptopbecause council is changing13:48
Estel_topic closed13:48
Estel_see ya.13:48
ZogG_laptopand council is not community kings13:48
ivgalvezEstel_: you have the right to present any complaint for IRC management, I just told you I thought it wasn't the right moment because that would be harmful for the community13:48
DocScrutinizer05's about estel_ phone, so it's to be ruled by him (or council), no matter if IRC, or repos, or admin of servers, or the sales price13:48
ZogG_laptopcommunity is comunity and it worked like that for a long time13:48
ivgalvezand if you want to present a complain you must do it officially13:48
Estel_ivgalvez, sure. My opinion is that irc channels without anyone feeling responsible for it, is more harmful13:48
ZogG_laptopand as X-Fade gave doc chanop and doc still has it, there are reasons13:48
ivgalvezperfect, then ellaborate and send it to community mailibng list13:48
Estel_I did it officially, to people that i felt were responsible. It turned out, that those people are not responsible for *anything*. No problem - acknowledged13:49
ivgalvezbut don't say that actions will be taken speaking for Council13:49
teotwakiEstel_: if you believe we're being egomaniacs about how me manage #maemo, try stepping a foot in #php, #gentoo or #linuxmint-*13:49
Estel_I wont forget to mention your PM's and explain, why I took them as declararation of taking care about problem.13:49
ZogG_laptopofficially == pm'ed one of council's i know about my hard life at irc?13:49
ivgalvezAbsolutely not, you know that Council is not in charge of naming anyone to be in charge of anything13:50
Estel_ZogG_laptop, while You're just trying to troll, I'll actually answer You - oficially = collected every situation of DocScrutinizer05 threating about abusing power without *any* real merit to do so...13:50
DocScrutinizer05*sigh* Estel_ redefining IRC. May I suggest you /join #freenode and elaborate about it there?13:50
Estel_then, sending it to people that *sahould* be responsible about it13:50
Estel_it turned out that those people don't feel responsible for IRC - what a surprise13:50
ivgalvezEstel_ you know that Council can't be responsible of IRC13:50
Estel_so problem is closed13:50
Estel_ivgalvez, so who is?13:51
ivgalvezas we cannot be responsible of TMO13:51
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: meh, gentoo is not a good example :P i was banned there for a long time, as i just answered rude for someone i even didn't know on pm :P and after all i mostly helped people there :P13:51
Estel_ivgalvez, bullshit. X-Fade already declared that he is willing to work with Council about IRC13:51
Estel_it's Council who denied!13:51
ivgalvezstatus of Council refrains for that13:51
Estel_considering that X-Fade also declared he is leaving, it's just that Council leaves IRC on it's own.13:51
ZogG_laptopEstel_: officialy is maillist and not starting war on back in private pm as u did! So please... who is trolling13:51
ivgalvezwe are just steering group13:51
teotwakiZogG_laptop: and I got banned from #gentoo because I thought an op was abusive, same thing on #php and #linuxmint, even though I always contributed positively13:51
Estel_ZogG_laptop, mailing list isn't authority governing IRC.13:51
Estel_Council is, in my book. Or was, as they denied :)13:52
ZogG_laptopEstel_: it's community comunication13:52
teotwaki(I got banned from #linuxmint for asking why someone got kicked instead of devoiced)13:52
Estel_got problem with that, ZogG_laptop?13:52
Estel_teotwaki, nice story, wanna talk about it?13:52
ivgalvezCouncil cannot take ownership of TMO as well. It's the same than IRC13:52
teotwakiEstel_: I'm good, Dr Freud, but thanks.13:52
Estel_otherwise, mentioning idiots on other channels, isn't good argument about idiots in our channel.13:52
DocScrutinizer05NB Estel_ still hasn't managed to understand how IRC works, he's thinking x-fade is chan founder of #maemo-ssu (which is the chan we're talking about right now)13:52
ZogG_laptopit was enuf for you to aprove to get yurself device over maillist and now it's not official for irc?13:52
Estel_ivgalvez, so again, please answer13:52
teotwakiEstel_: well, I could ban your arse and be done with this discussion.13:52
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki: please do13:53
Estel_who is responsible over IRC, when X-Fade leaves, and Council denied to take "tools"?13:53
teotwakiI mean, at least it would give you a reason to bitch and moan13:53
ZogG_laptopEstel_: your channel? your channel? it's community channel. it worked like that before you was here and would be after you go.13:53
teotwakinot that you've ever needed a reason13:53
Estel_ivgalvez, I hope You gt question, as it was spammed already ;)13:53
ivgalvezX-Fade is administrator but he leaving doesn't make Council capable of taking ownership13:53
teotwakiif anything, ownership should go back to GA13:54
ZogG_laptopEstel_: and till now i don't think people had problems with Doc and who did resolved it. for example i had problems with him, but i talked to him and we ok.13:54
ivgalvezbecause of Council responsibilities doesn¡t fit13:54
teotwakiwho I believe, was one of the chanowners, before we provided access to x-fade, just to prevent anyone in the community taking over and abusing it13:54
ZogG_laptopit's just Estel_ wants council to have all and than to be council again when there is all power all over mamemo :)13:54
ivgalvezBoard of Directors (if voted) could have more responsibilities than Council13:55
teotwakiwell fuck it, he can have it for all I care13:55
Estel_ivgalvez, X-Fade wanted Council to take ownership. council refused.13:55
Estel_ivgalvez, You're avoiding question13:55
*** em has joined #maemo13:55
ivgalvezNo, I'm responding13:55
Estel_I ask "who is responsible, if X-Fade leaves".13:55
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: actually gentoo got more rotten :P and many contributors and old-fags left. but you are welcome at funtoo btw. after it's drobbin's second child :P13:55
Estel_You're telling me who isn't responsible,. and I'm asking who IS responsible.13:55
ivgalvezThat's a problem13:55
Estel_do you see subtle difference?13:55
DocScrutinizer05Estel_ is concerned about IRC that he can live without ;-P13:55
ivgalvezthe same with servers and all Maemo related stuff13:56
Estel_I don't want to hear from Council "it's not our problem", I want to hear how You would like to solve this problem.13:56
ivgalvezbut they must be approved13:56
*** VDVsx has quit IRC13:56
ZogG_laptopEstel_: owner is owner, but it's also team of people who worked here for a while, they were chanops for a long time and it worked fine13:56
ivgalvezthen there will be legal entity capable of taking actions Council can't13:56
Estel_ivgalvez, do you realize that irc management is a mess in total? for example, maemo-ssu wasn't founded by X-Fade (but he ensured, that he could take ownership without problems, from freenode)13:56
Estel_if Council don't want to fix this mess, who shall? ivgalvez?13:57
ZogG_laptopEstel_: are you irc cop?13:57
teotwakithere's what, 6 people on #maemo-ssu?13:57
teotwakithe number of idlers in #maemo is dwindling by the day13:57
teotwakigive it another year, and the channel will be dead13:57
merlin1991teotwaki: it's 50 on #maemo-ssu13:57
ZogG_laptopand why maemo-ssu should be councilors as well?13:57
MrPinguWhat happened here? :O13:57
ZogG_laptopthe chan was made by cssu creators13:58
Estel_MrPingu, as ussual ;P13:58
teotwakiNokia never had a say in CSSU13:58
ZogG_laptopwhile they did it alone (started CSSU)13:58
teotwakithat was the whole fucking point of CSSU13:58
Luke-JrNokia is out of the picture AFAIK13:58
teotwakiso why would X-Fade have had anything to do with CSSU channel ownership?13:58
Luke-Jr#Maemo-SSU is owned by DocScrutinizer05 and MohammadAG13:58
teotwaki#maemo was never a legal representation of the community13:58
Estel_tetwaki - because it steps in Maemo's community thing, and X-Fade though that Council is actually elected by community for a reason13:59
teotwakiBut x-fade has never taken any administrative steps in the channel13:59
ZogG_laptopEstel_: elected to rule?13:59
DocScrutinizer05well, while some of the more reasonable teach about IRC here, and try to convince Estel_ to take his pills, I have a daywork to pursue13:59
ZogG_laptopis it kingdom?13:59
teotwakihis ownership equated to basically, us telling him who to add to the operator lists13:59
Estel_considering that X-Fade - just like me - though that Council want to be responsible about *anything*, he wanted to claim ownership of maemo-ssu too, if Council ask for it13:59
teotwakiEstel_: ^14:00
ZogG_laptopEstel_: it would sucks if people like you would have all powers14:00
Luke-JrEstel_: X-Fade has no authority in #Maemo-SSU14:00
Estel_teotwaki, saw it. Well, I said it's a mess - especially, considering freenode rules about projects14:00
Luke-Jrneither do freenode staff for that matter14:00
ZogG_laptopthan i bet you'll ban more, we saw how u talk when u was council :P14:00
ZogG_laptopand i bet your actuon wouldn't differ14:00
ivgalvezEstel_, jsut a summary: Council is just steering group for the community, doesn't have real powers, no matter what X-Fade, you or any other could think about it. It wouldn't be legal nor moral to claim Council ownership over any Maemo resources14:00
Estel_Luke-Jr, he would have authority if he wanted too, read freenode rulews about channel names14:00
Estel_ivgalvez, currently, Council isn't any steering group, as it doesn't want to .take *any* problems14:01
Luke-JrEstel_: is there a GRF in place?14:01
Estel_Coding Competition got promised voting mechanism, but it isn't going to happen? councilor answered "fuck you" using prettier words14:01
ivgalvezto avoid the void that Nokia and Nemein are leaving we propose to form a new Community via By-laws14:01
Estel_aka "do it yourself"14:01
Estel_there is problem with abusive chanop?14:01
Luke-Jrin any case, Nokia is no longer involved in Maemo.14:01
teotwakiEstel_: if you want, it takes me 20s to rename the channel to ##maemo14:02
Estel_"sorry, we're not authority. there is no authority over IRC channels, currently> thank you, yours Council"14:02
ZogG_laptopivgalvez: it's ok i think as well meegoexperts, n9-apps and other sites should be transfered for council administration. I think elop should report daily to council as well14:02
Luke-Jrteotwaki: don't bother, the channel's old enough to be grandfathered in14:02
Luke-Jrteotwaki: and there is no official Maemo entity really anymore14:02
Estel_ivgalvez, bylaws is one thing, but managing what is under Community (represented by Council) responsibility NOW is another14:02
teotwakiI know that14:02
teotwakijust making a point14:02
DocScrutinizer05x-fade taking over #maemo-ssu would require him to actually WANT to do that14:02
Estel_basically, you're telling us that until bylaws got accepted, You won't lift single finger to help with any problem14:02
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: oh, i think you are one of the freenode people, aren't you :P14:02
teotwakiZogG_laptop: nope14:03
Luke-Jrteotwaki = crashanddie14:03
DocScrutinizer05he's probably also not amused to hear "Jump!" from this mad guy14:03
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: so how would you rename?14:03
Estel_ivgalvez, it's basically leaving everything to work on it's own,. before bylaws are accepted and foundation created. I.e "full wild life" and totally rogue.14:03
Luke-JrEstel_: your "bylaws" have no relevance to IRC either14:03
merlin1991Estel_: it's been "full wild life" before that aswell14:03
Estel_my bylaws?14:04
teotwakiZogG_laptop: op myself, setup automated redirect to ##maemo, kick everyone14:04
Estel_how it's mine? 0_o?14:04
ZogG_laptopLuke-Jr: teotwaki both nicks familiur. i think from gentoo and as well here i had chat with him but it was few years ago14:04
Luke-JrEstel_: because I ignore them14:04
merlin1991well technically X-Fade could be able to take over #maemo-ssu thanks to freenode policy about project names but why would he want to, and even if he did what stops us from using another name?14:04
ZogG_laptopmerlin1991: it;s all about power games14:04
DocScrutinizer05it's about Estel_ redefining IRC14:05
DocScrutinizer05and taking lessons14:05
ZogG_laptopmerlin1991: it's like that u do all the work and that only few people started it while most jsut only use, the elite should control you.14:05
teotwaki"Inferior Rebel Chat"14:05
Luke-Jrthe Council only represents those who choose to recognize it as as representing them.14:05
ZogG_laptoplike in soviet russia :P when they said to sientist what to do and no creativity otherwise you are dead14:05
*** MikaT has quit IRC14:06
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: it's not only IRC, he is teaching council on TMO what to do with voting system and people, how not to ask rudely questiont to council14:06
DocScrutinizer05haha, while he is as rude as it gets14:07
*** maybeWTF has joined #maemo14:07
teotwakioh and Estel_, for the record, Doc and I were more abusive as mods on TMO than we ever were on IRC.14:07
*** MikaT has joined #maemo14:07
teotwakiwhen's the last complaint regarding abusive op on #maemo been?14:07
ivgalvezEstel_ the same than IRC applies to TMO. Actual administrator is Reggie and there are moderators, you could have whatever grief with any moderator you want to but Council won't be able to do anything about it. TMO administration can't be handed to Council by any means, the same applies to IRC. Board of Directors however will be able to receive permissions over TMO and promote a process to select14:08
teotwakiwhen the hell has there been a kick, recently?14:08
Estel_ivgalvez, so, basically, we're putting lights off...14:08
*** maybeHere has quit IRC14:08
Estel_when reggie leaves, and X-FadE?14:08
*** Darkchaos has joined #maemo14:09
Estel_sure, IRc will work on it's own ;)14:09
teotwakiEstel_: in terms of IRC? Yes. No lights are needed.14:09
teotwakiits own**14:09
*** lxp has joined #maemo14:09
Estel_ivgalvez, it isn't a stance that I would expect from elected Maemo's Council. anyway, continuing this discussion doesn't make any sense14:10
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: have you seen The Office?14:10
ivgalvezWe are not putting lights off we are preparing the transformation in a legal entity capable of handling such things14:10
teotwakiEstel_: this discussion makes plenty of sense, you don't.14:10
Estel_I thing I'm stuffed up enough with all this bullshit about no one wanting to take responsibility about anything. I understand, why both developers and old-time users are getting frustrated.14:10
teotwakiEstel_: if you want to be an abusive ego-driven douche, just admit it.14:11
Estel_teotwaki, well, you're free to have such opinion, of course.14:11
teotwakiBut don't go making up stories about "But what if the owners leave?"14:11
ivgalvezThat's what Council is14:11
ivgalveznothing more14:11
ZogG_laptopEstel_: who is those devs and old-users?14:11
teotwakiDo you honestly believe that x-fade wouldn't take two minutes to transfer ownership to GA, or Jaffa?14:11
Estel_all i'mtrying to point out is that, following current interpretation by ivgalvez, chanops can do whatever shit they want, because no one is responsible for them.14:11
teotwakiEstel_: actually, you're wrong.14:11
Estel_but thatt's not my problem, after all, and I have wasted enough "breath" (clicks) for that topic, already14:12
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: GA is chaop and it's not related :P14:12
teotwakiEstel_: if I cross the line, anyone in the community can tell me to fuck off, and any person in the /cs access list could go to freenode and have me removed.14:12
Estel_I just hope that such inability to coordinate and maintain *anything* - from Council - won't hurt Maemo's Community, making most important devs and dedicated users to leave.14:12
Estel_End of message ;)14:12
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i think you can go to #abuse and #help channels :P14:13
teotwakiThe Council has been a joke for ages14:13
ZogG_laptopit's the most official freenode thing u can get here :P14:13
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: i didn't followed their actions too much but as see some members who was council on all times, they were contributors (not relevant of being council or not)14:14
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: now the most annoying thing, as how do i know u as i know bth your nicks14:16
*** alehorst has quit IRC14:16
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: was u op on gentoo as well before ?14:16
teotwakiNo, but I hung out on the -ops channel14:17
ZogG_laptopi think u may be the one who unbanned me or helped to be unbanned :P14:17
teotwakiah, might be14:17
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: than thanks again :P14:18
*** pcfe has quit IRC14:19
teotwakiEstel_: I'm serious though, if you want to ego-trip and get ownership of the channel, just go ahead and say it.14:19
teotwakiBut don't pretend you're doing it for "the greater good".14:20
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: he'll ban everyone than :P14:20
teotwakiAs I said, it's ruins already, not like there's much to manage.14:20
ZogG_laptopat the end it would be Estel_ freenode owner :P14:20
*** andre__ has joined #maemo14:23
*** andre__ has quit IRC14:23
*** andre__ has joined #maemo14:23
* Jaffa sees his name, reads scrollback and decides to avoid the conversation.14:24
teotwakiJaffa: you bastard, I didn't even know you were here14:26
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo14:26
teotwakiJaffa: anyway, tl;dr: You'll get channel ownership in coming days/weeks.14:26
teotwakior at the very least, you'll be marked as a successor14:27
*** ivgalvez has left #maemo14:27
Estel_don't scare Jaffa, Do you think he would like all this mess?14:27
teotwakioh so now you speak, but my direct questions you ignore?14:27
Estel_sorry teotwaki, was involved in more constructive discussion about busybox-power in cssu14:27
Estel_could you quote it? too much noise in channel14:27
teotwaki(teotwaki) Estel_: I'm serious though, if you want to ego-trip and get ownership of the channel, just go ahead and say it.14:28
teotwaki(teotwaki) But don't pretend you're doing it for "the greater good".14:28
Estel_pure sophism.14:28
Estel_I mentioned abusive chanops, you mention that there are abusive chanops on other channels too. I mentioned that it's bad for community, you're telling us that irc will be empty soon anyway14:28
Estel_it's clear that you jsut don't care, so You're, probably, enjoying all that mess14:28
teotwakiok, when was the latest op abuse?14:29
Estel_but there are people who care, you know?14:29
Estel_teotwaki, go and read chanlog14:29
teotwakino, you tell me.14:29
teotwakiYou say that one of the reasons is op abuse, give me dates.14:29
Estel_if you're involving Yourself in this discussion, you should be aware wehat You're discussing about14:29
DocScrutinizer05[2012-08-31 13:26:06] *** merlin1991 hat Estel_ aus dem Kanal geworfen (Der Kindergarten ist woanders!).14:29
Estel_unles syou're doing it for pure shit'n'giggles fun14:29
DocScrutinizer05^^^ latest "abuse"14:29
Estel_bullshit, as abuse was about You.14:29
Estel_anyway, time to improve ignore filters14:29
*** croppa_ has joined #maemo14:30
Estel_definitelly too much time wasted for all this shit, already.14:30
teotwakicorrect, let's filter it for the whole community14:30
Estel_teotwaki, Yor only argument is that we don't need to do anything, as community will disappear soon,a nd you don't care anyway14:30
Estel_hardly a partner for discussion, is You ask me14:30
Estel_happy trolling, i'm out.14:30
*** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo14:30
* DocScrutinizer05 suggests opening a #estel_ channel, much more effective14:30
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o teotwaki14:31
*** teotwaki sets mode: +b *!*Estel@*Maemo/Community/council/Estel-14:31
*** Estel_ was kicked by teotwaki (Estel_)14:31
*** teotwaki sets mode: -o teotwaki14:31
teotwakiNow that's more effective.14:31
teotwakiFor the record, I'll remove the ban in 10 minutes or so.14:31
DocScrutinizer05good, since I won't14:32
DocScrutinizer05I've been asked not to administer estel_ in this chan anymore ;-P14:32
teotwakifair enough14:33
*** sessi has joined #maemo14:36
*** croppa has quit IRC14:36
*** e-yes has quit IRC14:36
*** florentia has quit IRC14:36
*** geaaru has quit IRC14:36
*** simeoni has quit IRC14:36
*** sessi is now known as simeoni14:36
ZogG_laptopafter all this privilige he is still whinning?14:36
*** timo^ has joined #maemo14:37
ZogG_laptopi barely saw people were banned on this chan for about 3 years :P14:37
chem|stZogG_laptop: +114:37
DocScrutinizer05he worked hard to own it14:37
chem|stonly bots and stuff14:37
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: he worked hard to earn it14:37
ZogG_laptopbtw it's time to take cloak of council from estel14:37
ZogG_laptopdoc kicked me once or twice but i asked for it, literally :P14:38
teotwakiI think the two people I kicked the most out of this channel were MohammadAG, qwerty12 and lcuk.14:38
teotwakime needs to study math again, 2 != 3.14:38
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: why would u kick them?14:38
teotwakiI don't remember14:39
teotwakiFun, mainly.14:39
ZogG_laptopand qwerty12 was here, i missed him here or i didn't pay attentiion to him than14:39
teotwaki~seen qwerty1214:39
infobotqwerty12 <~qwerty12@> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 266d 17h 57m 59s ago, saying: '?'.14:39
teotwakiless than a year ago?14:39
MohammadAGteotwaki: Fuck you, you never kicked me this month14:40
MohammadAGI feel forgotten14:40
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: qwerty is one who shouted door when he left with closed source controls for n900?14:40
MohammadAGPS3 YouTube app causes burn in14:40
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: like real burn?14:40
teotwakiMohammadAG: you haven't deserved your kick this month.14:40
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: don't say u missed my wazapp msg again :P14:41
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: I replied to it14:41
teotwakiZogG_laptop: yeah, he shovelled some dirt while leaving, he apologised for most of it, though.14:41
MohammadAGteotwaki: You said that last month!14:41
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: than i missed it. i just thought u would like to see it14:41
*** schen has joined #maemo14:41
*** croppa_ is now known as croppa14:41
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: meh, i mean the encrypted msg to nokia in his deb14:41
teotwakiZogG_laptop: no idea14:42
ZogG_laptopand i miss lcuk14:42
chem|stZogG_laptop: then != than14:42
ZogG_laptopchem|st: i keep making mistakes with that14:42
teotwakiMohammadAG: I've not seen any commits, either, you selfish little plump.14:42
*** jonne has quit IRC14:42
chem|stwho != whom too!14:42
*** e-yes has joined #maemo14:42
ZogG_laptopchem|st: at least not your you're and there their14:42
*** geaaru has joined #maemo14:42
*** jonne has joined #maemo14:43
teotwakiZogG_laptop: "10 is more than 9", "we went to the shops, and then we went home"14:43
MohammadAGteotwaki: Wait, when you gave me access you didn't want me to sell it?14:43
teotwakiMohammadAG: eh?14:43
MohammadAGJust kidding :p14:43
teotwakiMohammadAG: you have not read the fucking mailing list, have you?14:43
chem|st"we will BBQ granpa" punctuation saves lifes!14:43
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: u have chanop here i think, don't u?14:43
teotwaki"Shall we eat children?"14:43
MohammadAGteotwaki: I did14:43
chem|stteotwaki: ^^14:44
teotwakichem|st: my favourite: "I helped my uncle jack off a horse"14:44
teotwakiAs opposed to "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"14:44
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: punctuation is actualy an easy part, i just don't bother most times as noone does14:44
MohammadAGI do.14:44
MohammadAGYou'd expect the PS3 YouTube app to play at least 720p vids14:45
chem|st"I do!"14:45
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: why u use youtube on ps3?14:45
teotwakiZogG_laptop: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?14:45
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: They released an app.14:45
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: i'm russian i have an excuse14:46
teotwakiZogG_laptop: I'm not English native either ;)14:46
MohammadAGYou're not?14:46
MohammadAGI thought you were a Brit14:46
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: if they want apps and to be social , they should allow 3rd party :P14:46
teotwakiSome might even say I'm French, which places me at an even greater disadvantage than a russian bloke ;)14:46
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: you are canadian?14:46
ZogG_laptopare you*14:47
ZogG_laptopare you canadian. or french14:47
teotwakiNeither ;)14:47
*** alehorst has joined #maemo14:47
teotwakiI'm from the other messed up country: Belgium.14:47
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: are you from planet earth?14:47
teotwakiWell, there's another messed up country, where MohammadAG resides.14:47
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: but you are from french speaking side right?14:47
teotwakiZogG_laptop: yes and no.14:48
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: i'm from the same country that MohammadAG are14:48
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: i remember somthing french related with you14:48
teotwakiZogG_laptop: I always went to school in the french speaking side, but I've always lived (and my family is from) in the dutch/flemish part.14:48
teotwakiZogG_laptop: read qwerty's final message, I think he calls me a "fat french cunt" or something, don't remember frankly.14:49
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: so it was you.14:49
MohammadAGMy first iOS app
teotwakiyay, first view!14:49
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: oh, i remember someone told me that it was about you an i said you are okay, but they told you are abusive or something14:49
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: please no!!!!14:50
teotwakiyeah, sounds about right14:50
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: don't do it14:50
DocScrutinizer51a chanop that never gets accused to be abusive probably does a poor job14:50
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: so are you cunt or not. i need to know!14:50
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer51: i was never told i was abusive14:51
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: Why14:51
ZogG_laptopactually i was once after i banned someone who said racist thing and after i kicked he came back to say more.14:51
ZogG_laptopbut after he was unbanned and kept talking, and everyone said that i'm not right i left that chan and didn't come back for a long time14:52
DocScrutinizer51ZogG_laptop: see?14:52
ZogG_laptopi still have op which is weird14:52
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: more iphone stuff you do. less we get :(14:52
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: Not really14:52
MohammadAGBeen doing this for a while14:52
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: u type fast :P14:53
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: doing for a while? u see why all this happens in maemo community14:54
ZogG_laptopjust coz u went dark side14:54
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer51: mostly i never kicked or banned anyone saying stuff to me, as i don't care. i kicked when other's were called names14:54
DocScrutinizer51usually you got more than one sctive chanop, so no chanop needs to take care about own stuff14:56
*** Jucato has joined #maemo14:56
DocScrutinizer51but mostly you kick/ban to keep chan mood calm and s\n ratio good i.e. kick trolls14:58
DocScrutinizer51which sometimes isn't easy since the ban itself will usually rise chan temperature14:58
MohammadAGYou can work on more than one platform15:02
MohammadAGAnd personally I don't see iOS as the dark side anymore15:02
*** MrPingu has quit IRC15:02
DocScrutinizer51hi MohammadAG btw15:02
kerioMohammadAG: but it is! D:15:02
teotwakiMohammadAG: but it is! D:15:03
MohammadAGHi DocScrutinizer51 :)15:03
MohammadAGkerio: teotwaki why?15:04
keriobecause 1) not maemo15:04
kerioyeah, that's about it15:04
teotwakibecause 1) not maemo15:04
teotwakibecause 2) you can't put GPL software on it15:04
MohammadAGYou can?15:04
teotwakibecause 3) you can't hack with the device15:04
jaskaand it has no kbd.15:05
teotwakiNo, you can't have GPL software in the appstore.15:05
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: the point of doing it official way15:05
teotwakiMohammadAG: look at the VLC d débâcle.15:05
ZogG_laptopbut with harmattan and aegis friend most stuff is more sad than with jailbroken iphone :\15:06
*** florentia has joined #maemo15:06
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: he is using jailbroken things, so it's other side of dark side15:06
teotwakiHe's still limiting himself by using limited hardware15:07
*** wesk77 has quit IRC15:07
teotwakiIt's like buying a Dell desktop with Windows 7 just to be able to install Linux on it.15:07
MohammadAGteotwaki: I don't use iOS devices with jailbreaking them15:07
teotwakiBuy the parts separately, assemble, install your own OS.15:08
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: nothing out there for now anyway :(15:08
teotwakiMohammadAG: move to Android.15:08
teotwakior better yet, FS15:08
MohammadAGteotwaki: Never15:08
teotwakiYou lazy scum.15:08
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: with laptop it doesn't wrok that way15:08
MohammadAGIt's the worst OS15:08
teotwakiZogG_laptop: sure it does... There's at least a handful of companies that sell laptops without Windows.15:08
chem|stMohammadAG: ever synced 4 apple devices at once?15:08
MohammadAGchem|st: Nope15:09
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: u can't assemble them and most of them are liited choise :(15:09
MohammadAGBut id imagine iTunes would crash on windows15:09
chem|stMohammadAG: never seen something more painful15:09
ZogG_laptopitunes — LOL15:09
jaskaanother reason not to own an idevice15:09
ZogG_laptopandroid is good for end user15:09
teotwakiMohammadAG: do you have a raspberry yet?15:10
ZogG_laptopbut it's fake. it claims to be opensource while it's hybrid15:10
MohammadAGWhen a single core 1GHz device beats a quad core 1.2GHz with double the RAM you can see something's wrong15:10
chem|stMohammadAG: getting a picture from iphone to powerbook needed an email, BT not working at all15:10
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: MohammadAG i got raspberry yesterday15:10
MohammadAGteotwaki: Nope15:10
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: do you have gentoo on it?15:10
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: Where from?15:10
teotwakiZogG_laptop: nope, plain old raspbian15:10
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: ordered it on internets :P15:10
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: How long did it take?15:10
teotwakiI did some benchmarks on it, through zmq, using inproc memory, I was able to squeeze 4.1Gbit/s out of it15:11
*** dimw1t has joined #maemo15:11
teotwakiWhich I think is pretty decent!15:11
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: i have one more invitation to get one from other place, if you want but it's over priced there15:11
MohammadAGHow overpriced?15:11
MohammadAG200NIS is fine for me15:12
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: it took few months. the shipment 5 days...15:12
MohammadAGI hate waiting15:12
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: i didn't pay for mine15:12
MohammadAGNo metawatch, no rpi, for that reason15:12
ZogG_laptopthey waited for shipment15:12
ZogG_laptopbut i got it and still not15:12
teotwakiWould anyone else say 4.1Gbit/s is good?15:13
MohammadAGNot if you don't say how many GB/s that is15:13
teotwakidivide by 815:13
ZogG_laptopteotwaki: for internets15:14
teotwakiNo, as multithreading transport15:14
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: on phone15:14
teotwakiAnyway, I wa really pleased to see that amount on the raspberry pi15:14
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: would tell u about rpi in a second15:14
teotwakijust for shits and giggles, I ran the same test on my laptop15:15
MohammadAGThat's actually good15:16
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: so i know it's time of batch15:16
ZogG_laptopand u may get it really quick15:16
kerioteotwaki: what test is this?15:16
*** croppa has quit IRC15:17
teotwakikerio: zeromq inproc perftool15:18
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: Where does it ship from?15:18
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: i ordered in 6jul and 8jul they told it would take up to 12 weeks till i get it. and 24 aug i got track number15:19
MohammadAGToo long of a wait15:19
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: Usa->and it ravels inside usa and than it pass germany turkey and to lod israel in one day :P15:19
ZogG_laptopit took 5 days15:20
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: u don't have option anyway15:20
*** shanttu has joined #maemo15:23
*** Ken-Young has quit IRC15:24
*** Ian--- has quit IRC15:41
*** MrPingu has joined #maemo15:42
*** alehorst has quit IRC15:42
*** vblazquez has quit IRC15:45
*** livelace has joined #maemo15:49
*** sirdancealot4 has quit IRC15:52
*** Dynamit has quit IRC15:57
*** Dynamit has joined #maemo15:57
*** Fabian_S has joined #maemo15:59
Fabian_SHi! Is there some kind of hardware channel? (For hardware bugs etc)16:02
*** hardaker has joined #maemo16:04
*** Darkchaos has quit IRC16:09
*** geaaru has quit IRC16:10
teotwakiFabian_S: hardware bugs?16:13
teotwakiFabian_S: for the N900?16:13
*** hazchemix has quit IRC16:13
*** valerius has quit IRC16:14
*** hazchemix has joined #maemo16:14
*** jhb has quit IRC16:15
*** VDVsx has quit IRC16:17
*** geaaru has joined #maemo16:17
*** freemangordon has left #maemo16:18
*** etrunko has joined #maemo16:20
*** valeriusN has left #maemo16:20
*** mvp_ has quit IRC16:21
*** chenca has joined #maemo16:23
*** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC16:23
*** valerius has joined #maemo16:25
*** florian has quit IRC16:30
*** Wizzup_ has joined #maemo16:32
Fabian_Steotwaki: Yes, for the N900.16:33
teotwakiFabian_S: you do realise that the platform has been abandoned?16:34
DocScrutinizer51all known hw bugs live on my shelf16:34
teotwakiFabian_S: hardware bugs will never be fixed.16:34
DocScrutinizer51unless I fix them ;-P16:34
*** Wizzup has quit IRC16:34
Fabian_SN900 will never be abandoned! ;)16:34
*** timo^ has quit IRC16:35
DocScrutinizer51Fabian_S: anyway, you think you found a hw bug in RX51?16:35
Fabian_SMy dear pocket machine refuses to boot since yesterday. Its not the battery (checked with other). Maybe something with the bq24150a charger chip.16:36
DocScrutinizer51there are few known ones16:36
Fabian_SI am seeking help for the problem, or some links or directions where to look.16:36
DocScrutinizer51yay, powerkernel I assume?16:36
*** fuz_ has quit IRC16:36
infobotit has been said that n900-full-reset is when the user presses the PWRON (power-on) button for 8 seconds and removes the battery in the next 8 seconds, the TPS65950 enters NO SUPPLY state instead of BACKUP state, even if a valid backup battery is present. In such a situation, the backup domain registers are also reset, along with the VRRTC domain registers.16:37
Fabian_SPowerkernel v50 and i used USB-Hostmode.16:37
DocScrutinizer51Fabian_S: what do you mean by 'doesn't boot'?16:37
DocScrutinizer51please elaborate16:37
keriohm, v50 should be still safe16:38
kerioDocScrutinizer51: hehehe, you were dying for a reason to post that factoid, weren't you16:38
*** timo^ has joined #maemo16:38
Fabian_SBootcycle with only NOKIA-logo, no USB-Logo in upper right corner. Very short solid orange LED directly after powering up (only 0.5 secs).16:38
DocScrutinizer51actually it came in handy16:39
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo16:40
DocScrutinizer51Fabian_S: you're suffering from borked rootfs which doesn't start bme16:40
*** VDVsx has quit IRC16:40
kerioFabian_S: reflash16:40
DocScrutinizer51or defect battery16:40
Fabian_SI had problems for many months. I only could power the device while on wall charger, restarting was ok. Sometimes the battery indicator didn't updated, sometimes no charging was initiated when plugging in wall charger.16:40
infobotsomebody said reflash was zImage and/or initrd.bin on CF and press C+D+Reset (collie) OR, zimage.bin and/or initrd.bin on CF/SD and press OK while rebooting, then option 4, then CD or SF, then HAI (yes), then wait and cross fingers (all other models)16:40
kerio...what the fuck16:41
Fabian_SProblem: I does not go in USB-Mode.16:41
MrPinguMy device is running awesome again after reflash :)16:41
kerioFabian_S: try a different battery if you have one16:41
Fabian_SThe battery is ok, checked with other BL-5J from an other phone.16:41
infobotrumour has it, maemo-flashing is
*** Wizzup has joined #maemo16:42
Fabian_SI'll try the 8 second thing. So i press power button 8 secs (slightly longer), then remove battery while keep the power button pressed down?16:43
DocScrutinizer51Fabian_S: could you postpone topic until I'm @home again? ~30min16:43
*** Wizzup_ has quit IRC16:43
kerioFabian_S: that can't hurt16:43
kerioit should be the same as removing the battery and waiting for bupbat depletion16:43
DocScrutinizer51though I think you may release powerbutton when phone shut down16:44
keriono, you may release powerbutton after 8 seconds16:44
DocScrutinizer51afk for 20min16:45
Fabian_SDocScrutinizer51: ok16:45
DocScrutinizer51more like 3016:45
kerioFabian_S: does your bupbat still work?16:46
DocScrutinizer51Fabian_S: pretty basic hw function test: hold 'u' while plugging in Nokia fastcharger16:46
DocScrutinizer51should result in steady nokia screen with usb symbol16:46
Fabian_SDo i have to put the cover on for the test?16:47
DocScrutinizer51ot mandatory16:47
*** chenca has quit IRC16:47
Fabian_SAnd... what is a bupbat? :)16:48
DocScrutinizer51though it might help rule out unknown side effects16:48
DocScrutinizer51backup battery for cmos clock16:48
teotwakiMohammadAG: do you know Korea's Justin Bieber?16:50
*** freemangordon has joined #maemo16:50
Fabian_SSeems like my bupbat is pretty depleted, because only after a few minutes without battery i had to reset clock.16:50
kerioi suppose you can just remove the battery for 10 minutes or so16:52
kerioit should have the same effect16:52
*** fredrinLap has joined #maemo16:52
kerioand it's not depleted, it's broken16:52
keriolike most of the stock batteries16:52
Fabian_SStatus: Steady NOKIA-Screen with USB-Logo. (fuck yeah)16:53
Fabian_S- Placed battery -> Boot cycle starts16:53
Fabian_S- removed battery16:53
Fabian_S- Plugged wall charger while pressing U -> very short orange LED, but nothing else16:53
Fabian_S- placed battery while pressing U -> steady NOKIA-Sceen with USB-Logo16:53
Fabian_SThat is an improvement, kinda. :)16:53
kerionow reflash16:53
MrPinguFabian_S: That enables you to flash your device16:53
*** Wizzup_ has joined #maemo16:53
Fabian_SI think i try with kernel first, then full rootfs.16:54
MrPinguFabian_S: Smart ;)16:55
*** Wizzup has quit IRC16:55
*** chenca has joined #maemo16:56
Fabian_SUSB device found found at bus 001, device address 009.17:00
Fabian_SFound device RX-51, hardware revision 220417:00
Fabian_SNOLO version 1.4.1417:00
Fabian_SVersion of 'sw-release': RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_MR017:00
Fabian_SThe device is in production mode17:00
Fabian_SI LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!!17:01
*** valerius has quit IRC17:01
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo17:01
*** sirdancealot4 has joined #maemo17:05
*** fuz_ has joined #maemo17:05
*** VDVsx has quit IRC17:06
*** e-yes has quit IRC17:06
*** luuuuu has joined #maemo17:09
* DocScrutinizer05 hands kerio a cookie17:10
kerio/dcc get DocScrutinizer cookie17:10
*** jhb has joined #maemo17:11
Fabian_SNever ever was so happy to see those Nokia hands. :D17:15
*** luuuuu has quit IRC17:16
*** timo^ is now known as OerHeks17:16
*** ivgalvez has joined #maemo17:16
*** OerHeks is now known as timo^17:17
Fabian_SNext step: Install BackupMenu and restore backup from july.17:17
*** valerius has joined #maemo17:20
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo17:23
*** mvp_ has joined #maemo17:24
*** alehorst has joined #maemo17:26
*** VDVsx has quit IRC17:27
*** jhb has quit IRC17:31
fastaDo you also have that everytime you use a web-application that the vendor finds some excuse as to why it doesn't work?17:35
fastaIt's nothing but beta testing and of course there is no way to get around using the web-application to achieve certain real-world goals.17:35
fastaI think they forgot the part of automation where the automation should actually work.17:36
fasta(Just like Nokia has forgotten the part of customer service, where the customer service people need to understand English.)17:36
fasta(Or the part where providing 'technical support', means that there is someone technical still working at your company.)17:37
lartza_fasta: every vendor has excuses for everything17:37
fastalartza_: I don't mind services which I can escape from, but things which you have to use are just a nightmare.17:38
fastaThe same thing applies to the government usually.17:38
fastaThe same stupid people get elected every year and there is nothing you can do about it.17:38
fastaWe have a media-democracy, just like Russia has, basically.17:39
*** Ionakka has quit IRC17:40
MrPinguWhere do you live then?17:40
fastaMrPingu: The Netherlands.17:40
fastaWe do fine on lots of economical charts, etc.17:41
fastaExcept, we are just as corrupt as everyone else.17:41
MrPinguYeah and if new ones are elected, they revert the changes last government did :p17:41
SkryIs there any other democracy than media one?17:41
fastaSkry: the original Greek one.17:41
fastaThere is actually one party which wants that kind of democracy.17:42
jaskathe only democracy is when there is only one person left.17:42
fastaI think the whole idea that a majority has any power over me is stupid.17:42
Skryfasta: i guess its a pretty forgotten form nowadays.17:42
fastaIf someone wants to do business with me, then I should be able to choose whether I want to accept.17:43
*** zap_ has quit IRC17:43
fastaDemocracy says some big gang can tell me what to do.17:43
*** MrPingu has quit IRC17:43
fastaAlso government has zero reason to perform any work.17:44
fastaThere is no competition in any way for them.17:44
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo17:44
fastaIt should be possible to instantly fire anyone working for the government if enough citizens press the 'fire now'-button.17:44
fastaThey should be able to list a reason of course.17:45
fastaFor example: "completely incompetent".17:45
fastaOr: "lying scumbag".17:45
Skrythat would drop a lot of politicians17:45
fastaIf enough of the employers (=citizens) are unsatisfied, it would be => bye bye.17:45
*** florian has joined #maemo17:45
*** florian has joined #maemo17:45
fastaCurrently, it's the other way around.17:46
fastaPoliticians have never ever made any impact, AFAIK, except perhaps people like Churchill or something like that.17:47
lartza_anarchocapitalistic manifesto on #maemo, must be friday night!17:47
fastaAll change is done by technology improvements.17:47
*** jhb has joined #maemo17:47
*** VDVsx has quit IRC17:48
fastaAlso, the government keeps crying about 'lack of economic growth', but in the meanwhile you need to beg for their permission to do anything.17:48
fastaAnyway, I suppose it's the ancient old 'everything sucks'-rule which applies in government too.17:49
lartza_ and Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.17:50
fastalartza_: that's just want they want you to think.17:50
fastalartza_: it's greed, nothing else.17:50
fastaI also wonder why we don't just say we live in a communistic state.17:51
fastaMore than 50% of all expenses are done by the government here.17:51
fastaI am not sure, how else you would call that.17:52
fastaWhen is it communism? Only if it is at 100%?17:52
fastaIt's the same thing with physical security.17:53
fastaLet's say you are a jeweler and want to protect your property.17:53
fastaAn efficient way to solve this would be to put a camera somewhere, detect that it's outside of the normal opening hours, detect that someone is not recognizable and then fire some shotgun wired to a computer.17:54
fastaExcept, that's illegal.17:54
fredrinLapAny Raspberry Pi users here?17:54
fredrinLapthat got both an N900 and Pi?17:54
fastaBut in the meanwhile, when you would hook up the same system to a phone calling the equivalent of 911, that would _also_ be illegal.17:54
fastaAs such, the rules are setup such that criminals will always win.17:55
fastaWhy would that be? The only reason I can think of is for them (police) to keep a job.17:55
fastaThe purpose of government isn't to solve problems; it's to create them.17:55
fastaIf you look at things in this way, much more things make sense.17:56
*** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC17:59
*** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo17:59
Fabian_SYay! My N900 is working again! Thanks to everybody! :)18:00
lartza_which gps software is the greatest on n900?18:00
lartza_I'm considering I should probably put my mappero fix to the extras repo (don't really know how) but is mappero dead already?18:01
fastalartza_: AFAIK, that's done by a chip and the software just reads it out.18:01
fastalartza_: CloudGPS, in that case.18:01
fastalartza_: very smooth zooming, etc.18:02
lartza_supports pois and gpx tracks/routes?18:02
fastalartza_: probably not.18:02
lartza_I need driving instructions from mappero18:02
fastalartza_: driving instructions are in CloudGPS, AFAIK,18:02
fastalartza_: I'd say that CloudGPS is one of the less amateuristic applications.18:03
jacekowskiwhen it comes to navigation - i would say iphone - because of tomtom18:03
Fabian_Slartza_: Did you ever tried modrana? It supports POIs and tracks (creation/display)18:03
fastalartza_: you can also pay some company (there is a commercial app for the n900)18:03
jacekowskibut it's useless18:03
fastajacekowski: why is that?18:03
fastajacekowski: (I have never used it)18:03
jacekowskiit's slow, and there was a problem with postcodes or something18:04
jacekowskican't remember now18:04
lartza_or i'll keep on using my patched mappero ;) but i'll check cloudgps18:04
jacekowskibut tomtom is releasing android app18:04
jacekowskiso that's going to be sweeeeeeeeeet18:05
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo18:05
fastajacekowski: what's the business model going to be?18:05
jacekowskibut basic thing, most apps for android are either online or shit18:07
jacekowskitomtom is offline and it's the best navigation out there18:07
fastajacekowski: Google navigation is pretty good, imho.18:08
jacekowskiwhich is the killer feature when abroad18:08
jacekowskifasta: but it's online18:08
lartza_luckily mappero supports offline google routes18:08
jacekowskiso when i travel abroad it doesn't work18:08
fastajacekowski: yes, but the number of people going online is growing.18:08
jacekowskilartza_: but you have to generate them before leaving?18:08
fastajacekowski: I do agree that embedded devices that work offline are useful.18:09
fastajacekowski: smartphones just don't have a lot of battery power in them.18:09
jacekowskifasta: i'm online when i'm in the UK18:09
Lava_Crofthm, seems there is a 'solution' for making the camera remember its save-location18:09
jacekowskifasta: but abroad, no way18:09
fastajacekowski: it's 2 euros per day.18:09
lartza_connect via wlan, download gpx and openstreetmap tiles, offline while driving. that's how I travelled from finland to germany by car :)18:09
jacekowskifasta: read the small print18:09
jacekowskifasta: you are limited to few megabytes and stuff18:09
*** VDVsx has quit IRC18:09
Lava_Croftit would never rember it by me, and kept resetting the location to my SD card18:10
fastajacekowski: for Vodaphone?18:10
jacekowskifasta: iirc it's £2/day on t-mobile uk and 15MB18:10
fastajacekowski: ok, then they are misleading and I should report them to the false advertising committee :)18:10
jacekowskifasta: they don't say unlimited18:10
Lava_Croftbut apparently setting it to save on the device itself and then removing the sd card (after turning it off:) and rebooting it again18:10
fastajacekowski: they also don't say it's limited.18:10
Lava_Croftwill force it to remember to save it to the device itself18:10
fastaMobile communications should also be free politically speaking.18:11
fastaIt exists for over 150 years basically.18:11
lartza_there will be european fixed price gprs roaming some day18:11
fastaIts potential is enormous, but no, we have to auction it off to some stupid corporation.18:11
lartza_I think the first ones are on the market already18:12
jacekowskion t-mobile uk you pay £10 for 50MB18:12
jacekowskii'm better of paying for tomtom app or something like that18:12
jacekowskithat's in EU18:12
jacekowskiif i go to some shitholes i tend to visit like qatar then it would be £140 for 20MB18:13
fastajacekowski: why do you visit shitholes?18:13
fastajacekowski: so you are a cia agent?18:13
jacekowskiwell, qatar wasn't so bad18:13
jacekowskifasta: you could say so18:14
fastajacekowski: or FSA.18:14
jacekowskiif that makes you happy18:14
jacekowskinah, we just do water cleaning/screening stuff everywhere18:14
jacekowskiwell, not us exactly18:14
jacekowskianother company18:14
jacekowskibut we do all software for them18:14
fastaAnd they want you to be 'on-site'.18:15
fasta(for some bullshit reason, probably)18:15
jacekowskinot exactly18:15
jacekowskiit's us commisioning it in the end18:15
fastaAh, ok.18:15
lartza_cd water && make clean18:15
jacekowskii mean qatar wasn't bad place to go18:15
jacekowskibit hot18:15
jacekowskiand alcohol was expensive18:16
jacekowskibut saudi arabia was pretty bad18:16
fastajacekowski: I think TomTom certainly provides a valuable experience (unlike most other software).18:16
jacekowskibecause we were in poor part of the country18:16
jacekowski(we spent something like 100SAR for food there for week - while single sandwich on airport costed 100SAR)18:17
fastajacekowski: I have another brand of personal navigation embedded device and after an update it also gets the job done just fine.18:17
jacekowskibut basically, you i go and a lot of people do that as well18:17
jacekowskito places where there is no internet18:17
fastajacekowski: as such, you are basically paying something for the extra quality of TomTom.18:17
jacekowskior it's not easy to access18:17
lartza_if I was going to poor parts of saudi arabia i'd probably also buy the more expensive commercial gps18:18
fastaStill, TomTom has some parts which are not exactly ideal, for example they are a C++ shop.18:18
jacekowskilartza_: why, same stuff18:18
jacekowskiand it saves weight18:18
fastaAs a consumer you will only notice that as 'oh, look it works fast'.18:18
fastaBut they will likely lag in features compared to others.18:18
jacekowskiwell, C++ is a good thing18:18
jacekowskiC would be better18:19
fastaI think Nokia using Prolog for certain features was a good move.18:19
fastaStill, I think Nokia  built pretty bad UI applications.18:19
jacekowskibut thing is, internet in saudi is pretty cheap18:19
jacekowskiiirc it was 100SAR (£17) for simcard with internet for month18:19
fastajacekowski: why would C be better?18:20
jacekowskibut coverage on the desert/poor part of the country was not perfect18:20
fastaIf computers were infinitely fast, I think C++ would be better.18:20
fastaC++ compiles just so slowly.18:20
jacekowskiC++ has all disadvantages of C18:20
jacekowskiwith added disadvantages of OOP18:20
fastaUsing C++ in a particular way leads to fairly safe code.18:21
jacekowskithing is, C++ has a lot of nasty "features"18:21
jacekowskiand duplicate features18:21
fastaYes, it's a big language.18:21
*** sirdancealot has quit IRC18:21
jacekowskiC++ being designed as C compatible was a mistake18:22
fastaI think everyone always wants to take shortcuts.18:22
fastaA language like Coq combined with Bedrock or something like that would actually allow you to say 'this code has no bugs'.18:22
jacekowski+ polymorphism18:22
jacekowskias in overloading18:22
jacekowskithat leads to some nasty shit happening18:22
jacekowskiwhen debugging18:22
jacekowskibecause 2+2 may not equal 418:23
jacekowskiif you overload18:23
fastajacekowski: ATS is also a decently designed language.18:23
fastajacekowski: it's just that the current implementation is a bit ... meh.18:23
fastaThat's the case with lots of these languages.18:23
jacekowskireally, C# is the future18:23
fastajacekowski: why would that be?18:23
fastaIt doesn't run on Linux in a decent way, there are no decent tools on Linux.18:24
fastaAnd you still get a garbage collector for 'free'.18:24
fastaGarbage collection doesn't work for a lot of applications.18:24
* ShadowJK namedrops Objective C18:24
fastaShadowJK: cheap Smalltalk ripoff.18:25
fastaI think everything has already been invented; it's just building a good implementation now.18:25
fasta(that is, programming language wise)18:25
jacekowskiC++ should have GC18:26
jacekowskiC++ makes memory management so painful and complicated18:26
fastajacekowski: there's 'D' too.18:26
jacekowskiand exceptions make it even worse18:26
fastajacekowski: I don't think it's painful and complicated.18:26
jacekowskibecause you would like to throw an exception18:26
fastajacekowski: how much code have you written in C++?18:26
jacekowskibut then cleaning up stuff18:26
jacekowskifasta: a lot18:26
*** mase_76 has joined #maemo18:27
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo18:27
fastajacekowski: 100+KLOC?18:27
jacekowskifasta: imagine simple code where you create few objects18:27
jacekowskifasta: a lot more than that18:27
*** mase_76 has quit IRC18:27
jacekowskifasta: simple code, create few objects and any of those can fail18:27
jacekowskias in, throw an exception18:27
jacekowskiso you have your exception handler18:28
jacekowskibut imagine cleaning up that stuff18:28
jacekowskibecause it can fail at any moment18:28
jacekowskiit may have just created 10 objects18:28
jacekowskiit might have failed after nothing was allocated18:29
jacekowskiand you have to cater for that in your cleanup code18:29
fastajacekowski: I don't really see that as a problem as there are multiple solutions to that problem.18:29
jacekowskiyes, but nothing as easy as it's done in other languages18:29
jacekowskiIMO in C++ exceptions are half assed18:30
fastajacekowski: what would be the difference with any other language according to you?18:30
fastajacekowski: e.g. in Haskell it would be just 'no memory'=> out of memory exception and you lose basically all state, AFAIK.18:30
fastajacekowski: not exactly ideal.18:31
jacekowskiin c# cleanup would be handled by gc18:31
fastaOne could also wonder what one would like to cleanup.18:31
jacekowskithing is, current implementation in C++ is just as good as no implementation in C18:31
*** VDVsx has quit IRC18:31
jacekowskiyou still have to handle everything manualy18:31
jacekowskifasta: those objects that have been allocated but are not going to be used because something failed few lines down18:32
jacekowskii'm going home18:32
freemangordonjacekowski: that is why you'd better allocate on stack ;)18:33
jacekowskistack has limited size18:33
fastafreemangordon: stacks are not infinite either.18:33
freemangordonyeah, I know that18:33
fastaI doubt many people measure exactly how much stack they use.18:33
fastaThat is, that they can give a precise upperbound on stack depth.18:34
fastaAnd, AFAIK, if you go beyond it, your C++ program will just crash.18:34
fastaOr perhaps it's 'implemented defined'.18:34
fastaEither way, it won't work everywhere.18:34
fastaI think such programming languages are rather short term sighted.18:34
fastaProgramming is nothing but managing sets of information using theorems in the end to speed up things.18:35
fastaNote that nowhere there was a 'stack' or a 'heap' mentioned here.18:35
fastaATS formalized libc preconditions and post conditions.18:36
fastaAs such, you can write a kind of OCaml with C speed.18:36
fasta(and OCaml safety)18:36
fastaIf everyone would use that, there would be no 0-day exploits, no 'security bulletins' and other nonsense.18:37
freemangordonwell, stach objects are cleaned up by the compiler in the exception handler18:37
fastaHumans seem to have this nasty habit of creating problems.18:38
fastaActually solving a problem is something they like to avoid for as long as possible.18:38
*** jhb has quit IRC18:38
freemangordonanyway, using new and malloc is bad idea, see firefox if you don't trust me :D18:38
fastafreemangordon: are you saying they mixed it?18:39
fastafreemangordon: i.e. free something created with new?18:39
*** sirdancealot4 has quit IRC18:39
fastafreemangordon: well, otherwise there is no escaping it.18:39
fastafreemangordon: because they use C libraries too.18:39
freemangordonthey do new/delete and malloc/free, but the end result is an awful memory fragmentation18:39
freemangordonwell, actually FF uses its own MM, but still18:41
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo18:44
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo18:48
fastafreemangordon: stilll what?18:49
fastafreemangordon: if they have their own MM, I don't see why there still would be a problem.18:50
*** geaaru has quit IRC18:50
fastafreemangordon: because they can even track memory patterns and based on that relocate memory.18:50
fastafreemangordon: anything can be done if you control it, which they do.18:50
fastaAs such, that part of Firefox isn't stupid.18:50
fastaThere are some other part of software development @ Mozilla which are stupid, but I think they are even working on that.18:51
freemangordonfasta: still dynamic memory allocation (from heap) should be used with care, there are lots of occasions where a simple static array (or object) will perform much better than a pile of new/delete.18:51
fastafreemangordon: in fact, in all cases that will perform better.18:52
fastafreemangordon: except, the problem is that you don't want to use a gazillion GB of memory.18:52
fastafreemangordon: which is why malloc was invented in the first place.18:52
*** VDVsx has quit IRC18:53
freemangordonI didn't mean faster, that is clear, I meant better from memory management POV18:53
fastaIf you are going to program a battleship, then you do want to have everything statically allocated.18:53
fastaFor a web-browser, not so much.18:53
*** jrocha has quit IRC18:54
freemangordonfasta: my point was, that sometimes objects are dynamically allocated with no reason for that18:56
*** BCMM has quit IRC18:56
fastafreemangordon: well, then you are per definition right :)18:56
freemangordonfasta: I have the feeling that most of the developers feel bad if the don't use dynamic allocations, most probably because of historical reasons :). i.e. if you don't use that cool new "malloc", you are old-fashined. I hope you get what I mean. The opposite for using goto ;)19:00
*** dhbiker has quit IRC19:04
*** timo^ has quit IRC19:05
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo19:09
keriofasta: what about web browsers *on* battleships?19:13
*** VDVsx has quit IRC19:13
*** MrPingu has joined #maemo19:15
fastakerio: on a completely different physical network.19:25
keriothat sounds inefficient19:25
kerioi want gecko to run on my battlecruiser!19:25
fastakerio: proving Firefox to be completely secure seems harder than building a battlecruiser.19:26
keriobattlecruisers aren't very secure either19:26
keriothey've got tons of weapons19:26
keriothey're really dangerous!19:26
*** tanty has quit IRC19:27
fastakerio: battle cruisers aren't really dangerous anymore.19:27
fastakerio: because they are obsolete.19:27
keriowell i suppose that it depends on which kind of battlecruiser19:27
kerio300 damage for 125 energy, fuck yeah19:28
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:28
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:28
fastaI wonder what would happen if you win a starcraft LAN party by punching the other guy in the face.19:28
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:28
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:28
fastaOr are there rules against that?19:28
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:28
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:28
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC19:28
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:29
fastaMMA Starcraft.19:29
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:29
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:29
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:29
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:29
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:29
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:30
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:30
*** Sazpaimon has joined #maemo19:30
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo19:30
*** jrocha has joined #maemo19:34
*** VDVsx has quit IRC19:35
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC19:36
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo19:38
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC19:38
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo19:38
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC19:38
*** Sazpaimon has quit IRC19:38
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo19:38
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC19:38
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo19:39
*** githogori has quit IRC19:39
*** VDVsx has joined #maemo19:39
keriofasta: irrelevant, sc2 doesn't have LAN19:41
fastakerio: I never mentioned sc2.19:42
keriofasta: irrelevant, you won't ever win a brood war LAN party19:42
keriounless you're alone19:42
DocScrutinizer05hey, fun discussions in here19:42
fastaDocScrutinizer05: we are trying to beat the off-topic record.19:43
keriobtw, i should really try stargus on the n90019:43
DocScrutinizer05go ahead :-)19:43
fastaDocScrutinizer05: nah, I was already done.19:43
fastaMarbles on the n900 is quite a nice puzzle game, btw.19:43
*** setanta has joined #maemo19:43
keriothe only game i have on the n900 is aisleriot :c19:44
fastaIt actually requires some thought if you don't use a computer to cheat.19:44
DocScrutinizer05IRC OT isn't anything to worry about too much, since after all we want to get to know each other19:44
fastaDocScrutinizer05: you haven't been in #ubuntu then.19:44
DocScrutinizer05so OT is tolerated or even appreciated until somebody shouts19:44
fastaDocScrutinizer05: or pretty much any other 'corporate' 'community' channel.19:44
DocScrutinizer05I'm just quoting general freenode rules19:45
fastaI find that such a sad activity, btw. Either you are a company XOR community, not both.19:45
fastaDocScrutinizer05: I mean companies trying to 'have a community'.19:46
DocScrutinizer05I tied to be both, when I "did my time" at OM as senior EE. And both community and my boss appreciated it19:46
kerioi'd say that OT is fine as long as it's not distracting an active discussion19:46
fastaDocScrutinizer05: that's not how a community works.19:47
keriochannel is silent => OT is fine19:47
fastaDocScrutinizer05: I think the main failure is to act as someone with power over others.19:48
DocScrutinizer05fasta: obviously companies often haven't thought about their own role19:48
fastaDocScrutinizer05: i.e., you are not part of the community then, you are just a tyrant.19:48
fastaThat's the usual role which companies give themselves.19:48
DocScrutinizer05a community may have a favourite company, but no company ever has a community19:48
fastaDocScrutinizer05: right19:48
kerioand #maemo's favourite company is nokia!19:49
DocScrutinizer05IOW community >> company19:49
fastaDocScrutinizer05: well, nowadays, some companies make things which no community can make.19:50
fastaDocScrutinizer05: e.g. an Intel CPU.19:50
DocScrutinizer05though OTOH community often approaches companies with insane demands, that no company could ever satisfy.19:50
fastaDocScrutinizer05: I have no doubt that the software side of an Intel CPU can be done by a community.19:51
kerios/done/done better/19:51
kerioa community won't lock you out of features that *are in the hardware*19:51
fastaBut the hardware part, I don't see how that's going to happen unless we get some other hardware which allows us to program physical matter.19:51
keriofasta: fpga? :)19:52
DocScrutinizer05fasta: I just say i'm an anarchist more than anything else. In the best historical sense. Nothing more to say about relation between community and companies, and my position in that game19:52
kerioor maybe a 3d printer19:52
fastakerio: that's slower than an Intel CPU.19:52
keriojust overclock the shit out of it19:52
fastakerio: (for executing single-threaded code, that is)19:52
jon_yis it still offtopic time?19:52
fastaDocScrutinizer05: also the anarcho-capitalistic kind or another kind?19:52
keriojon_y: until someone has something more related to say19:53
fastakerio: 3d printers create much larger features.19:53
jon_yok, I just encountered SAN loss when looking at some perl code today19:53
fastaDocScrutinizer05: how exactly is that different?19:53
keriouse a 3d printer to build a more precise 3d printer19:53
jon_yold script was working for years, written by some one else19:53
DocScrutinizer05dunno, as an anarchist I don't really care ;-D19:53
fastakerio: recursion doesn't work like that.19:54
jon_ywhen I took a look at it, WTF MY EYES ARE BURNING19:54
keriojon_y: weird, that's the same reaction i get from *any* perl code19:54
*** eMHa has quit IRC19:54
jon_ykerio: no this is cthulhu level19:54
kerioperl is cthulhu level19:54
*** MrPingu has quit IRC19:54
jon_ywhy is it checking that two scalar is not *0* and not a digit, AND THEN subtract them with each other19:55
jon_ythe hell that supposed to mean19:55
jon_y($str1 - $str2) / $str2 * 100.019:56
jon_yyep, SAN loss19:56
fastaDocScrutinizer05: it seems about the same.19:56
fastaDocScrutinizer05: what bothers me is that there is no political party which proposes these kinds of ideas.19:57
jon_ysad thing is that I run the risk of being fired for pointing this out, since it has worked for years19:57
fastaDocScrutinizer05: or well, I suppose there is one, but they are against nuclear power.19:57
jon_ythings broke when perl was updated19:58
jon_yfixing bad code can cause PROMOTIONS19:58
DocScrutinizer05jon_y: well, I'm not feeling too comfortable with any political party, or with politics in general19:59
fastaDocScrutinizer05: sure, but in reality you still have to deal with them.19:59
DocScrutinizer05a true pity19:59
fastaDocScrutinizer05: I think lunar bases, etc. might put an end to that at some point.19:59
jon_yDocScrutinizer05: me neither, I just told the original maintainer how bad the current code is and tried to fix things20:00
jon_ynow I feel sad20:00
fastaI also had a Perl dependency.20:01
fastaThen it broken, I told the maintainer it was broken.20:01
fastaHe said he would at some point look at it, so I replaced it with a different, more stable language.20:01
fastaAnd I lived happily every after.20:02
jon_yI rewrote the Cthulhu part into something what I thought the original author was trying to convey20:02
jon_yit was like reading an essay with butchered grammar20:03
fastaIs Cthulhu a word like foobar?20:03
fastaOr does it actually mean something?20:03
jon_yyeah, so bad it causes SAN loss20:03
jon_ybasically bad code that is soo bad, how the f did it even work level20:03
lartza_most of the code in the world probably is like that20:04
jon_yyet it has worked for years, until somebody upgraded perl20:04
jon_yI blame the author for not using strict;20:05
fastajon_y: you should blame whoever decided to use that code in the first place.20:05
fastajon_y: which is not the author.20:05
fastaLots of open-source applications authors also respond in a very interesting way when you report a bug in their applications.20:06
fastaThey say "yeah, that's a bug in library foo, reassigning".20:06
jon_ythe original guy is probably long dead :)20:06
fastaUhm, no, the application author decided to use that library, so it's his problem.20:06
jon_yno, it's not a library20:06
fastaOf course, I am the original sucker.20:06
fasta(for using the application in the first place)20:06
jon_yit was a utility script called and written by an application, probably by the same guy20:07
fastaI can't wait for the day that all code is formally verified.20:07
*** odin_ has quit IRC20:07
fastaNo more broken software \o/20:07
jon_ytakes 5 years to write a hello world :)20:07
fastajon_y: no, it doesn't.20:07
jon_yalso, lawyer fees20:07
fastajon_y: it's about 3 times more work.20:07
fastajon_y: when compared to just writing the code.20:08
fastajon_y: except then you don't need lots of unit tests.20:08
fastajon_y: and you know it works, not because you think it does, but because the computer tells you so.20:08
jon_ynah, I was thinking it becomes like civil engineering20:08
fastajon_y: civil engineering is much worse than what I envision.20:08
fastajon_y: do you know a civil engineer?20:09
jon_yno, I had a friend who was20:09
jon_yhe stopped doing it20:09
*** githogori has joined #maemo20:09
fastajon_y: then he was either lying, or only doing simple things, or God.20:09
fastaIn theory, you should be able to input two GPS coordinates, the constraints of the structure and get building plans out of it.20:10
jon_yI remember him mentioning all the paper work involved20:10
fastaCivil engineering has failed as an industry because they haven't done that in the past 50 years.20:11
ZogG_laptop~seen BCMM20:11
fastajon_y: a bridge and a building are just objects which can be computed.20:11
infobotbcmm <~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 9d 47m 4s ago, saying: 'berarma: yes, i know. i'm trying to work out what could do that'.20:12
fastajon_y: just like you can compute pretty much anythign else.20:12
jon_yI see where you're going with that20:12
fastajon_y: the work that civil engineers do is basically just applying rules all day long.20:12
fastajon_y: looking up some country specific rules is a big part of that.20:13
fastajon_y: finding numbers in tables, coming up with adhoc solutions to problems created by other human failure, etc.20:13
jon_ythat's where all the lawyering comes in right? :)20:13
fastajon_y: the lawyering comes in when someone makes a mistake.20:13
jon_y*the country specific rules20:13
fastajon_y: also the true engineers are miles ahead of the contractors.20:14
fastajon_y: it's kind of like rocket scientists explaining to a cab driver how their engine works.20:14
fastajon_y: it's just a fundamentally bad idea.20:14
jon_ycompanies prefer contractors though, since they're cheaper20:15
fastajon_y: perhaps I used the wrong word.20:15
jon_yhmm ok20:15
fastajon_y: "general contractor"20:15
fastajon_y: does that mean something different for you?20:15
jon_ywell, contractor for me means external vendor guys20:16
jon_yrather than in-house people20:16
fastajon_y: in the case of a building, a 'general contractor' is brought on.20:17
fastajon_y: his company traditionally bears all the risks.20:17
fastajon_y: for some lump sum of money to complete the job.20:17
fastajon_y: (i.e. building the building)20:18
jon_yok, the guys that actually do the building20:18
jon_yguys out in the field20:18
fastajon_y: no, the company where those guys work.20:18
fastajon_y: they just compute how much something like that will cost, etc., bid on it and get the project.20:18
jon_yok, so far sounds familiar20:19
fastajon_y: but those guys generally are not involved all day long with details of the building they are going to create which an engineering firm does have.20:19
fastajon_y: as such, there is a large gap in knowledge between the two.20:19
jon_ythey just get the instructions right?20:20
fastajon_y: that's not really how it works these days anymore.20:20
*** Ex-Opesa has quit IRC20:20
fastajon_y: sometimes they do, but it will always be incomplete.20:20
infobotjon_y meant: they just get the plans right?20:20
fastajon_y: not even that all the time.20:21
jon_ypartial if more than one involved?20:21
fastajon_y: more often and often it's just a matter of saying 'we want to be able to put vehicles of this weight at this speed on that bridge, we want a 50 year warranty, now you go and build it'.20:22
jon_ythat is from the civil engineering firm?20:22
fastajon_y: slightly simplified, but more and more it's 'what', not 'how'.20:22
*** sLumPia has joined #maemo20:23
fastajon_y: no, the civil engineering firm is usually hired by the general contractor.20:23
jon_yaha, I got it backwards all this time20:23
fastajon_y: in this case, the general contractor might find during construction that some fatal design failure was in some plan.20:24
fastajon_y: this now has to be solved.20:24
fastajon_y: at that point, the general contractor wants to continue the projects ASAP, but the engineering firm has to somehow compute things correctly.20:24
fastajon_y: which for difficult problems can take a longish time.20:25
fastajon_y: but the explanations of the engineering firm might at this point go over the head of the general contractor's company.20:25
fastajon_y: because traditionally, that wasn't their job.20:25
fastajon_y: to make things worse, the engineering firm is not actually liable in many cases.20:26
fastajon_y: (which was the point I was trying to make earlier)20:26
fastajon_y: in case you were wondering where I was going.20:26
jon_yI think so20:27
jon_ysounds like a company too big to communicate effectively20:28
fastajon_y: no, the fundamental problem is not this one company.20:28
fastajon_y: the problem is that one party should be responsible for the entire construction and ideally no human thought would enter the process.20:28
fastajon_y: i.e., a compiler from two gps coordinates, a list of formal strenght requirements, to actual stepper motor actions of a collection of robots.20:29
fastajon_y: if civil engineering people had actually been problem solving they would have developed something like that.20:29
fastajon_y: but instead, they opted for some process still involving people.20:30
*** thomasjfox has joined #maemo20:30
fasta(which is why buildings still collapse)20:30
jon_yI guess with all the varied architecture, they wouldn't trust a fully computed model20:30
jon_yor so feel that way20:30
fastajon_y: every calculation is done by computers anyway, it's just that it still has to be designed now.20:31
*** eMHa has joined #maemo20:31
jon_yso if the engineering firm does a crap job, things fall apart quickly20:32
fastaI think you could probably bankrupt a company, by just hacking into their computers and modifying parameters, such that all their current projects fail after two years.20:32
fasta(which is why computer security is an important subject)20:32
fastaI doubt anyone would notice.20:33
fastaThe computer has become their little black box of wisdom.20:33
fastaNobody cares anymore how something works.20:33
jon_ydue to the momentum at which the place I work at has, all change is frowned upon :(20:34
*** vi__ has joined #maemo20:34
jon_yfeels bad when pointing out flaws20:34
jon_yI might just go job hunting as an insurance20:34
fastajon_y: you could jobhunt anyway.20:35
fastajon_y: it doesn't sound like the most inspiring location ever.20:35
lartza_inspiring locations seem to be rare20:35
esaym153Is there an easy way to make a slideshow for the background image in diablo or is there already an app for it?20:36
jon_yesaym153: maemo sort of has live wallpapers20:37
jon_yI think it's GL based, so prepare for battery life propblems20:38
*** Vanadis has joined #maemo20:39
esaym153jon_y: that sinks, there should be a way just to randomly display an image every so often?20:39
jon_ynot sure about that, sorry20:39
keriodid someone try to port sauerbraten/red eclipse/cube2 to maemo?20:41
*** vi__ has quit IRC20:42
jon_yfasta: computer security is also lacking where I work20:45
fastajon_y: computer security is lacking everywhere.20:45
jon_yreally, tainted system() calls with setuid()20:45
jon_yjust add ;/bin/bash for account hijack20:45
fastaI am 100% sure, that it's possible to attack any standard system and exploit it in some way.;20:45
lartza_every bank is insecure, it's the bloated legal system trying to fight against that sort of crime20:46
fastaAnd you can probably do it for less than 200K$.20:46
jon_ymore like they're not even trying20:46
kerioHAM doesn't ask for a password before installing stuff20:46
jon_ydoes it accept any arbitrary commands from the CLI?20:47
fasta2M$ for the keys to every important system in the world seems awfully cheap.20:47
fastaI.e., keeping wiretaps on diplomats, etc.20:47
lartza_jon_y: they don't have to try because they think they can sue criminals20:47
lartza_or so they think20:47
fastalartza_: well, they can, can't they?20:48
jon_ynot if the criminal is bigger than them20:48
lartza_meanwhile clever criminals make fortunes20:48
*** robink has quit IRC20:48
jon_ylike the NSA :)20:48
lartza_in the insecurity business20:48
fastalartza_: you should reall elaborate.20:49
fastaI think I know how you can bankrupt a bank in theory.20:50
fastaBut I don't see how you can at the same time extract money in the process.20:50
jon_yI could dig up a dozen of account passwords by looking into a sudo account ~/.subversion, since they made the client store passwords20:50
*** hazchemix has quit IRC20:51
*** robink_ has joined #maemo20:51
jon_ysadly none of them can understand the problem of using system() on svn which stores passwords on a sudo account20:51
jon_ysince it has been going on for so long, the IT department can't remove it without breaking CRITICAL ENTERPRISE SYSTEMS20:52
lartza_fasta: well I haven't learned the details of that, but it's hard not to think that with the insecure computing we have everywhere there weren't serious business over there20:53
jon_ysaid systems written with a monster mash of Java/tcl/tcsh/Perl code20:53
fastalartza_: oh well, perhaps I do know a way in which it could be done.20:54
*** robink_ is now known as robink20:55
*** robink has joined #maemo20:55
*** hardaker has quit IRC20:56
*** cyborg-one has quit IRC20:56
*** iDont has quit IRC20:56
lartza_fasta: i suspect there is a shitload of virtual currency routed illegally without no-one noticing20:56
*** beford has joined #maemo20:56
*** beford has joined #maemo20:56
lartza_nor getting caught20:57
fastalartza_: virtual currency, sure.20:57
fastalartza_: not actual currency.20:57
*** ivgalvez has joined #maemo20:57
lartza_reroute to location where it is20:57
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC20:57
fastalartza_: you are talking about bitcoins, linden dollars, etc., right?20:57
fastaIn a technical sense, the banking system is obsolete.20:58
lartza_no i mean real money in digital form20:58
fastalartza_: I am not sure how nobody would notice that.20:58
fastalartza_: everyone keeps track of their own assets.20:58
fastalartza_: there are all kinds of reporting systems.20:59
fastalartza_: unless you hack the entire infrastructure, prolonged hacking would probably not work.20:59
lartza_everyone does not keep track of their own assets21:01
lartza_in fact most have "random loss of assets"21:01
lartza_and don't really care unless it's too much21:01
*** livelace has quit IRC21:01
fastalartza_: o.O21:04
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo21:04
fastalartza_: I suppose there are other subtle ways to make them lose money.21:04
fastalartza_: you can for example hack into their trading systems.21:04
fastalartza_: and just show them wrong news21:04
fastalartza_: or show them wrong prices.21:05
*** lbt is now known as lbt_away21:05
fastalartza_: anyway, if you cannot trust your machine anymore, there is no civilization left.21:05
fastaWhich is basically why I said that computer security is perhaps too important to be left to a bunch of people who really don't know what they are doing.21:05
fastaSpeaking of which, does a Lumia complete failure imply that Nokia goes bankrupt?21:06
*** cyborg-one has joined #maemo21:07
fastaOr is there some hypothetical universe in which they will build a modern n900 afterwards?21:07
*** odin_ has joined #maemo21:07
fastaIt's kind of amazing that such a huge company can be decimated in two years or so.21:08
DocScrutinizer05(security) the problem are self-assigned experts who think they know what's best for $everybody21:08
fastaDocScrutinizer05: no, the problem is that people listen to those people.21:08
DocScrutinizer05(n900 in parallel universe) probably theer's such a universe, but nobody has found the gate yet21:09
jon_yDocScrutinizer05: or none at all21:09
jon_ynobody takes security seriously anymore :(21:09
fastaIf all application development happened in an interactive theorem prover, I just don't see how that's going to be insecure.21:09
jon_yafter all, it's agile agile agile21:09
DocScrutinizer05oooh, those experts do. just they neglect the joe avarage user's needs21:09
DocScrutinizer05see HARM21:10
DocScrutinizer05amd ~aegis21:10
fastaDocScrutinizer05: ?21:11
DocScrutinizer05dedicated to content providers much more than end user needs21:11
fastaDocScrutinizer05: that sounds like a bad joke.21:11
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:12
*** krau has quit IRC21:12
DocScrutinizer05those security experts assraped by management and not even realizing21:13
*** mvp_ has quit IRC21:13
fastaWindows8 also sounds like a nightmare.21:13
fastaIt's hard to believe anyone would even want that.21:14
fastaI watched a few videos on Youtube and they managed to make their UI worse.21:14
fastaOne guy gave the OS to his father to let him use it and he recorded his actions.21:15
Sc0rpiusyou can disable the "tablet UI" and have the same UI from Windows 721:15
Sc0rpiusand I'd want W8.21:15
DocScrutinizer05well, the product managers found a nice fairy tale to fool devels into thinking TPM/aegis is something with a huge(!) ebnefit to end suer21:15
fastaSc0rpius: but you cannot develop your own run-time system.21:15
jon_yheh, DocScrutinizer05 made a new word, ebenefit21:15
Sc0rpiusI wonder why would I want that :)21:15
fastaSc0rpius: for some things you will have to ask MS's permission to do things on your own machine.21:16
Sc0rpiuslike what for example?21:16
*** krau has joined #maemo21:16
jon_ywasn't the Windows 8 UI mandatory?21:16
jon_ythey removed the option to disable it in the rtm iirc21:16
Sc0rpiusW8 UI for desktops is exactly the same as the W7.21:16
Sc0rpiusthe horrible W8 UI is only intended for tablets21:17
jon_yexcept no start menu?21:17
Sc0rpiusI have start menu in the W8 preview21:17
DocScrutinizer05Sc0rpius: like playing with your won device's notification LED. Considered "dangerous" so no app pkg gets tokens to access that, even while API is stable and defined and existing21:18
fastaHow much does it even cost for NOK to create a new phone model?21:18
fastaI doubt it's more than 10M dollar.21:18
ZogG_laptopSc0rpius: it has metro ui integrated and changes. but i don't care anyway21:18
ZogG_laptopi use win7 for few apps for school :p so wouldn't even think to update21:19
DocScrutinizer05fasta: something around that, +- one digit21:19
Sc0rpiuswell WinRT is for Metro21:19
fastaDocScrutinizer05: put that's almost nothing compared to the amount of cash they still have.21:20
Sc0rpiusW7 is my main system21:20
fastaDocScrutinizer05: but perhaps they need that, to fire everyone ;)21:20
Sc0rpiusthis xchat runs in a Xubuntu on a VMWare full screen in 2nd monitor of my W7 host21:20
Sc0rpiusI need both OS at the same time21:20
jon_yuse irssi instead :)21:20
jon_yconsole UI is best UI21:21
DocScrutinizer05fasta: agreed. bit having a working hw doesn't mean a thing, unless you get support from a working sw development ecosystem21:21
Sc0rpiushell no21:21
fastaDocScrutinizer05: but there's lots of open-source ways to manage software and writing a few drivers for such a device also cannot be that hard for NOK, since they did it a million times already.21:21
Sc0rpiusyou know back in 1990 when EFnet was few months old the only IRC client was ircii21:21
Sc0rpiusand that was a nightmare21:22
Sc0rpiusI wouldn't want another console IRC client.21:22
DocScrutinizer05I'm leaving for now, getting some pretty nice dinner, then let sonme apes shoot at me with 9mm21:22
jon_yI've been using irssi for more than a year, no problems21:22
fastaDocScrutinizer05: sonme apes?21:22
fastasome apes*21:22
jon_yalso, irssi scripts to annoy other users21:23
fastaDocScrutinizer05: sound like fun, be sure to post it on YT.21:23
*** ivgalvez has quit IRC21:23
Sc0rpiuswell jon_y  you must be one of those guys that the only open window it has in its X server is a terminal window with lots of tabs :P21:23
Sc0rpiusanother X server wasted :P21:23
jon_ynope, no X at all21:23
jon_yjust screen(1)21:23
DocScrutinizer05fasta: "some monkeys" and yes, there's been my suggestion to Nokia to ship new devices with winX "for idiots", and proper board support package for linux geeks21:24
DocScrutinizer05seems Nokia doesn't see the business model in it21:24
fastaDocScrutinizer05: they should look at the history of Lego.21:24
*** githogori has quit IRC21:24
ZogG_laptopfasta: what was in lego history?21:24
fastaZogG_laptop: they almost went bankrupt.21:25
fastaZogG_laptop: there was some community of people adding electronics and stuff to their stuff.21:25
fastaZogG_laptop: they wanted to forbid it, I believe.21:25
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo21:25
fastaZogG_laptop: then someone told them they should instead help that community.21:25
jon_yprobably MS is stopping them from supporting Linux21:26
fastaZogG_laptop: so, instead of building cheap toys they went on to create expensive adult toys.21:26
ZogG_laptopfasta: i hope sony would bankrupt with playstatons :P21:26
fastaZogG_laptop: and afterwards Lego pretty much rocked.21:26
ZogG_laptopjon_y: Elop is Ms :P21:26
jon_ymore or less21:26
fastaThe best companies reinvent what they do depending on market conditions.21:27
DocScrutinizer05actually my last post might have been one of the best suggestions to random phone hw manufacturers since last 10 years. The problem is nobody listens (at least none of the money peppersacks)21:27
fastaDocScrutinizer05: post or message here on IRC?21:27
jon_ybeancounter department says no21:28
DocScrutinizer05I gave up like 5 years ago21:28
DocScrutinizer05big busines ==big busines ==big busines ==idiots with no clue21:28
fastaIf there would be no patents to worry about, I would likely want to fund part of a n900 like modern phone business myself.21:29
DocScrutinizer05hi SpeedEvil my friend21:29
SpeedEvilPatents make it insane.21:29
fastaPatents are another reason for lunar bases.21:30
DocScrutinizer05SpeedEvil: leaving LTS business at STE today :-S21:30
fastaIf you make a foundation which makes mobile phones, then there are no patent issues, right?21:30
DocScrutinizer05LTE* ?21:30
*** Woody14619a has joined #maemo21:30
SpeedEvilfasta: just because you call it a foundation does not avoid patent issues.21:31
jon_yLawyer Apocalypse :)21:31
DocScrutinizer05STE too big to move *anything*21:31
jon_ythink zombie apocalypse, except with lawyes21:32
SpeedEvilYou can only make patented items for evaluation of the patent. You cannot profit from them in any way - even if it's for example to make your life easier, with no actual monetary profit21:32
fastaSpeedEvil: but foundations don't make profits.21:32
DocScrutinizer05couldn't even make them rethink their policy about GPLing *one* file needed for MALI40021:32
SpeedEvilRevenues, not profits.21:32
jon_ysell phone at a loss to profit from batteries? :)21:32
DocScrutinizer05dm8tbr will tell you details21:33
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer05: :/21:33
jon_ytripple bladed phone21:33
SpeedEvil - issues around open source hw21:33
fastaI think I saw quite some positive lumia reviews on Amazon; are those all fake?21:33
jon_ydoes it read ++++ Would Buy Again? :)21:34
SpeedEvilWhich has as the consequence you need several million in startup funding.21:34
DocScrutinizer05STE interested in Samsung, RIM, Nokia... you name it. "FOSS?? WTF is that?"21:34
*** javispedro has joined #maemo21:34
SpeedEvilThe silly part is that back in time, before the breakup of IBM, opensource software, and vendors that accepted patches were common.21:35
DocScrutinizer05google snowball, novathor, ril300 (obsolete)21:35
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:35
*** nox-- has joined #maemo21:35
*** nox-- has quit IRC21:36
DocScrutinizer05fasta: what's the use of positive hooker reviews?21:36
*** nox-- has joined #maemo21:36
fastaDocScrutinizer05: none, they only drive up price.21:36
fastaDocScrutinizer05: and I suppose there is a reputation element involved.21:37
fastaDocScrutinizer05: but it would make more economic sense to trade those reviews.21:37
DocScrutinizer05N9 and as well hooker are pretty good hw (kudos to me EE colleagues). But doesn't help conquer the future21:37
DocScrutinizer05since OS sucks21:38
DocScrutinizer05(my personal despise of devices without hw kbd left aside)21:39
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer05: moving on from STE, or moving internally?21:39
DocScrutinizer05away from STE21:39
DocScrutinizer05just in time ;-P21:40
DocScrutinizer05hope something *really* interesting (like jolla) is ahead21:40
*** vblazquez has joined #maemo21:40
*** sq-one has joined #maemo21:41
fastaDocScrutinizer05: is it possible to invest in Jolla in some way?21:41
SpeedEvilNot at the moment.21:41
DocScrutinizer05that's a good question. Seems like they got scared by public reception21:42
fasta(and they still would need to explain whether there is any money left after all the patents they will surely hit)21:42
DocScrutinizer05I offered a business contract nobody could decline. Got no response21:43
fastaDocScrutinizer05: you wanted to help them for cost of living/free?21:43
DocScrutinizer05like "100 bucks a month for being aboard and taking care"21:43
DocScrutinizer05reading all the frigging emails. commenting on them. signing all the NDAs in blood21:44
SpeedEvil:/21:44 response :-S21:44
SpeedEvilI wonder if they've got a team moved whole from nokia21:44
fastaDocScrutinizer05: for stock, or just for the opportunity?21:44
fastaDocScrutinizer05: 'being aboard' can mean a lot of things.21:45
DocScrutinizer05well, for me it meant "sign NDA, get email account, get access to internal servers holding schematics so I could review... etc pp"21:46
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo21:46
DocScrutinizer05if they want me to take responsibility for anything, that's another negotiation21:47
DocScrutinizer05dunno, maybe they are just (too) slow21:47
fastaDocScrutinizer05: you could try sending them a physical letter?21:48
DocScrutinizer05I'm vacant since today. No better opportunity to get me sign whatever contract21:48
fastaDocScrutinizer05: what did you do yesterday?21:48
DocScrutinizer05fasta: meh! we're living in internet age21:48
fastaDocScrutinizer05: or send them a fax.21:49
fastaDocScrutinizer05: they wouldn't know what hit them!21:49
DocScrutinizer05yesterday I shreddered LTE datasheets about novathor21:49
fastaDocScrutinizer05: I mean were you an employee somewhere? If so where?21:49
DocScrutinizer05google novathor21:50
DocScrutinizer05or simply read backscroll21:50
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:54
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo21:54
*** jonne has quit IRC21:55
*** dhbiker has joined #maemo21:57
*** jonne has joined #maemo21:57
fastaDocScrutinizer05: that only tells me what novathor is, that there are two companies involved, which could have any number of clients, of which you might be one, but perhaps you worked at Ericsson then?21:58
fastas/you/the company you worked for/21:58
infobotfasta meant: DocScrutinizer05: that only tells me what novathor is, that there are two companies involved, which could have any number of clients, of which the company you worked for might be one, but perhaps you worked at Ericsson then?21:58
*** ShadowJK has quit IRC21:59
DocScrutinizer05fasta: yep, I worked at Ericsoon21:59
fastaDocScrutinizer05: so, you decided to go?22:00
DocScrutinizer05datacom, responsible for low level hw interface drivers and associated stuff22:00
DocScrutinizer05fasta: I'm not allowed to talk about it, but I may tell it wasn't my decission and I'm not alone22:01
fastaDocScrutinizer05: do you also guess about things on the hardware side when things go wrong?22:01
DocScrutinizer05fasta: I'm EE22:01
fastaDocScrutinizer05: ok22:01
DocScrutinizer05and vacant ATM22:02
infobothmm... joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer22:02
infoboti heard docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko22:02
fastaDocScrutinizer05: sorry to hear that then. Good luck finding something fitting in any case.22:02
DocScrutinizer05I'm still hoping for jolla22:02
fastaDocScrutinizer05: ah, so it's more of way to entertain you then?22:03
DocScrutinizer05besides I got an employment here with some errr. consulting office22:03
DocScrutinizer05I'm more happy to do fun jobs I know I can excel, rather than monkey business22:04
DocScrutinizer05my absolute competence is in reviewing system architecture at large, schematics, and lead teams on a technical level22:05
*** Woody14619a has quit IRC22:05
DocScrutinizer05and sometimes I got hybris to think I could deal with communtity until some estel guy comes bitching at me22:06
*** e-yes has joined #maemo22:06
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC22:08
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo22:08
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC22:08
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo22:09
*** Sazpaimon_ has quit IRC22:09
*** Sazpaimon_ has joined #maemo22:09
*** Sazpaimon_ is now known as Sazpaimon22:09
*** ced117 has quit IRC22:10
*** javispedro has quit IRC22:17
*** dhbiker has quit IRC22:22
*** piggz has joined #maemo22:23
*** dhbiker has joined #maemo22:24
*** yosafbridge has quit IRC22:24
*** ShadowJK has joined #maemo22:26
*** OkropNick has quit IRC22:41
*** vblazquez has quit IRC22:41
*** vblazquez has joined #maemo22:50
*** shanttu has quit IRC22:54
*** yosafbridge has joined #maemo23:06
*** githogori has joined #maemo23:11
*** ALoGeNo has quit IRC23:14
*** geaaru has joined #maemo23:17
*** hardaker has joined #maemo23:21
*** hardaker has quit IRC23:24
*** hardaker has joined #maemo23:27
*** vi__ has joined #maemo23:29
*** piggz has quit IRC23:37
*** Ex-Opesa has joined #maemo23:37
*** andre__ has quit IRC23:47
*** kodomo has joined #maemo23:51
*** kodomo_ has quit IRC23:55
*** VDVsx has quit IRC23:57

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!