IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2012-07-28 pic on google+00:01
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, could You remind me name of charging chip inside N900?00:15
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Estel_thanks a lot00:17
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Estel_I though about asking You, but wouldn't dare to ping You out of blue sky00:17
Estel_google was answering with bq2415x family ;)00:18
* ShadowJK just finished rewiring and rebooting after an ups failure00:20
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DocScrutinizer05UPS significantly *increases* the likelihood of complete failure due to power outage, in my book00:26
DocScrutinizer05unless you use true redundancy design, means tower with two PSU etc00:26
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DocScrutinizer05the sort of stuff that costs 10 times as much as a comparable standard PC00:28
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer05: good UPSes have bypass contactor00:30
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and it's exactly that one that usually fails00:31
ShadowJKIt had been working nicely for bridging 1-2s power gaps that I get, but then it seems like it failed during self test this morning, and all attached equipment lost power "instantly", for duration of self test00:31
jacekowskiwell, chances of UPS failing and bypass contactor failing are unlikely00:31
jacekowskiand besides, dual PSU00:31
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ShadowJKThe main switches for our ISP has dual UPS and dual PSU. Unfortunately using qualified electricians seems to counter this, and the dual PSUs in the switch are fed from a single 24VPSU fed by a single UPS00:33
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qwazixanybody used qtm proximity sensor on maemo? does it work? I just re-did something that works on harmattan on maemo but the slot is never triggered00:45
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Estel_ShadowJK, lol01:03
Estel_does anyone know if regular polycarbonate foils would work in capacitive screens?01:04
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Estel_following wikipedika explanation of capacitive (transparent conductive material on top) it shouldn't work good, but something tells me that wikipedia article isn't entiurely precise here01:04
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beford[citation needed]01:05
Estel_basically, I located cheap good quality foild for N9, which should fit for N950 too, but I'm concerned about capacitive sh*t01:05
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* ShadowJK vaguely remembers some nokian commenting that the capacitive touch sensor is already borderline with the curved glass shenanigans01:06
Estel_ShadowJK, yea, but N950 doesn't have curved-glass01:06
Estel_if I understood correctly what You mean01:06
Estel_my favorite "mark" of foils works well for N900 screen - i.e. 0 sensitivity loss - but resistive is resistive, and capacitive is irritating shit...01:07
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Estel_I always try my bets to keep screens in ideal state, and considering N950 unreplaceable (non purchaseable) digitizer, It's even double01:08
Estel_I also wonder about best material for doing as-thin-as-possible capacitive stylus, gog damn capacitive screens... It will probably turn out to be fubar anyway, due to lower limit of area required for touch detection01:09
Estel_I just wonder if true conductive thing like conductive foam is required, as, after all, my figners are not made of metal too... other material with comparable or better conductivity than human body, yet, not necessary mettalic, should work too01:10
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Estel_I'll answer myself - yes, it works with screen protector (tested it with putting one on it, without sticking)01:14
Estel_(i.e. via 2 more layers of foils that protect protector foil, yet, screen still worked)01:15
Estel_now I wonder what kind of resistivity stylus needs really, if 3 layers of foil are no problem01:15
* ShadowJK suspects it's about distance01:16
Estel_but metal styluses works from huge distance (tested it with broken telescopic antenna)01:16
Estel_this capacitive shit is still kinda mystery for me, other than it just suxx in practice01:17
Estel_it's probably some kind of distance and resistance plot01:17
ShadowJKI suspect if the foil was conductive, you'd have problems01:18
Estel_of course foil isn't01:19
Estel_I would have 100% screen touch detected01:19
Estel_aka palm on screen01:19
Estel_still, fingers - much less conductive than metal - works even through many layers of foil, so I wonder what else than conductive foam could be used01:20
Estel_for a stylus tip01:20
Estel_someone's else finger01:20
Estel_more cool01:20
Estel_female I would take metallic stylus, rip off plastic tip, and replace it with said material, neutral for screen (and much bigger in diameter than oriuginal tip, to fulfill bitchy requiments for touch area)01:21
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, female finger with nice long tips01:21
Estel_time for hunting!01:22
Estel_*after quick check* index finger should be sufficient01:23
Estel_where is my toolbox01:23
DocScrutinizer05LOTP4QTy9IHQBQ&ved=0CF4Q9QEwAQ&dur=2890   economy pack of stylii.  Don't forget to integrate mustard dispenser in your N9 custom case01:23
DocScrutinizer05dafaq those URLs01:23
Estel_wut a epic link?01:23
Estel_well, I still insist on using female index fingers01:24
DocScrutinizer05fsck google01:24
Estel_most likely, of Nokia's management staff origin01:24
DocScrutinizer05I heard they don't taste with mustard01:24
Estel_a way of saying "Thank You" for capacitive screen01:24
Estel_we can prepare them in spiritus01:25
Estel_like lenin's brain01:25
Estel_I wonder how marinating in spiritus affect's finger's conductivity01:25
SpeedEvilI've been wondering about that.01:25
SpeedEvilConductive clear silicone rubber.01:25
Estel_separated fingers, or capacitive styli?01:26
Estel_wtf, something like that even exist? it must be damn expensive01:26
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qwazixEstel_, have you seen the SU-39 stylus?02:38
Estel_this one? :
Estel_to huge for a styli02:39
qwazixhahaha, yeah02:40
Estel_but seriouslky, I've found it, nokia one... Well, thanks a lot, will check how it's made02:40
Estel_I'm quite late as per TMO events, how Your great efforts of providing fremantle for harmattan are going?02:40
infobotEstel_ meant: I'm quite late as per TMO events, how Your great efforts of providing hildon for harmattan are going?02:40
Estel_I've said fremantle, because it's albo about other programs, not only hildon-ui02:41
qwazixI got one but doesn't work for any of high end nokias02:41
Estel_qwazix, so it doesn't work for N950/N9?02:41
qwazixI don't know if it's defective or it only works for C602:41
qwazixno, you have to touch it in weird angles to work02:41
Estel_how it's made? i.e. tip, and rest, what material is it?02:41
qwazixso that more area touches02:42
qwazixseems like plastic02:42
Estel_probably it's about detection area required by screen's driver02:42
Estel_well, so in C6 they used brain and made required detection area smaller, eh?02:42
qwazixit's not only the tip that's capacitive, but the whole thing02:42
Estel_it's pity that brain vanished from them later02:42
Estel_and capacitive stylus can't be defective, it's just material of set conductivity02:42
qwazixif you touch the side it also registers a touch (with a bit of effort)02:43
Estel_I wonder what it is, no metal, but not regular plastic too02:43
Estel_something more conductive for sure02:43
* Estel_ nods02:43
qwazixI wonder what will happen if I file the tip down to make it wider02:43
Estel_if Yuo can make it 15 mm in diameter, it will work :P02:43
Estel_wlel, maybe 10mm will suffice02:43
qwazixAbout fremantle->harmattan I stalled because I want to finish rawcam for the coding competition02:44
Estel_in any way, it is too much for comfortable use in real things :( but it's capacitive screen design fail, at least in this unit (and most available on market)02:44
Estel_qwazix, I see02:44
qwazixbut I've got some useful pointers from cordia team, I just probably need to start over...02:44
Estel_well, fremantle for harmattan would surely win all categories in CC :D02:44
qwazixyeah, but I don't think I would have anything end-user friendly before the deadline02:45
qwazixBy the way wacom over capacitive as on the Galaxy Note wins everything02:46
qwazixhands down02:46
qwazixthen comes a good resistive (N810, N900, 5800)02:46
Estel_wacom on capacitive have pressure sensitivity?02:46
Estel_like for mypaint?02:46
qwazixthen a good capacitive iPhone, N9, then crappy resistive (C6-00, craplets, vodafone joy), then crappy capacitive (Original samsung galaxy i5700)02:47
Estel_well, I preffer good resistive, and when they add multitouch (which is very effective, as many vedors proved), I don't see any technical reasons for capacitive digitizers to exist, other than annoy by need of special PITA styluses, huge detection area, and problems for usage with gloves02:47
qwazixyep, very nice pressure sensitivity, pity that mypaint doesn't run on android02:48
Estel_well, pity that samsung galaxy runs android :D02:48
Estel_shame on them, decent hardware is wasting02:48
qwazixYeah, and although plastic, quality is very good02:49
Estel_hm, so wacom created something usable out of capacitive screens? sounds nice. What about touch area detected? Is it comfortable to hit ultra-mini buttons, like on N900 and Easy debian, for example?02:49
Estel_as in my book, main con of capacitive screens is lack of precision when you need to hit small thing...02:50
Estel_then pressure sensitivity02:50
qwazixWith stylus yes, with fingers, the usual. It also supports hover (yay) with cursor, and when stylus is hovering over screen finger touches are ignored02:50
Estel_btw in point 1 i also include lack of proper styluses02:50
Estel_well, decent application, at least02:51
Estel_so it's kinda touch screen/touchpad/tablet (as in painting) combo?02:51
Estel_hats off, really. Pity that others don't try to do something like that... Or in fact instead of spending much $$$ on expensive wacom, just use good resistive with multitouch :P02:51
Estel_(but I agree, that this wacom thing sounds neat)02:51
qwazixit's just like having a wacom tablet over your phone. My regular wacom pen works fine on the Note02:52
Estel_so stylus for this wacom thing doesn't need to have huge tip, i.e. can be very small? eh, I beg for this on n95002:52
qwazixwith button support on the pen and all02:52
Estel_ouh, so it require special pen?02:52
Estel_I see02:52
qwazixit has one included, the tip is small as a bic pen02:53
Estel_well, this way, I preffer good resistive that allows me to use any pen I lke, but, well,m it still sounds better than capacitive hell we have on N950/N902:53
Estel_yea, because pressure sensitivity/touch is detected via touch resistor in pen02:53
Estel_so it's, in fact, capacitive-resistive combo, but resistive part is in pen :P02:53
qwazixyou've got to try it first02:53
Estel_I got wacom painting tablet02:53
Estel_so I can imagine experience of capacitive/wacom combo02:54
Estel_I wonder how it is about power usage when in wacom mode, though02:54
qwazixmm, I cant really say, the note is a power sucker by itself anyway02:54
Estel_yea, but wacom things are, in fact, active digitizers, so I bet that it sucks at least as much as whole N900 under middle usage02:55
Estel_well, small usage with screen on02:55
Estel_talking about that, bad design decisions can, actually, screw even best design, like resistive screens, so i'm glad that they did it right on galaxy02:56
Estel_if it's so power-sucker, it remind me of samsung q1-somethjing, from origami project02:56
Estel_it got ncie linux support02:56
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Estel_x86 mobile computer, sized as thicker tablet, with resistive screen02:56
qwazixI'm googling every other day to check if somebody ported any proper linux on it but nothing02:56
Estel_would be kinda great, if not that suckers made this resistive screen driver totally prone to pressure sensitivity02:56
Estel_it's either "clicked" or not as in mouse02:56
Estel_qwazix, won't happen, 'm afraid, would require hardware adaptation of Mer02:57
Estel_well, lets see what Jolla havfe for us02:57
Estel_after all, we have our N900, no matter what :)02:57
qwazixI have a remote hope that maybe a tizen adaptation shows up02:57
Estel_I've just ordered parts for usb to serial adaptor, and i'll make Ir receiver dongle for it, so it will learn signals from remotes02:58
Estel_I wouldn't count on tizen02:58
Estel_if Harmattan wasn't thing that fulfil Your dreams, You can be sure that tizen will be even more locked and overall badass02:58
qwazixI liked harmattan at first, but the fact that it has serious bugs bothers me02:59
qwazixI always used the N900 as mobile computer, never as a phone. I use it very heavily so I can never rely on it to have power at any given time.03:01
qwazixI prefer a slab or T9 for my primary phone, so that was N95->i8910->N903:02
qwazixand the N9 even without being what I dreamt as a N900 successor filled a hole in my usage pattern. A phone that I like to code for in a dumbed down form-factor and looking good which has a true linux as a (huge) bonus03:04
qwazixby the way I just made an app that shows the time when you pull the N900 out of your pocket03:06
qwazixI don't know how much power it sucks yet but it shouldn't be much unless polling the proximity sensor is power-hungry03:06
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merlin1991qwazix: it'd check if there is an api in place that you don't have to poll the sensor but instead get a notification on change03:41
infobotmerlin1991 meant: qwazix: I'd check if there is an api in place that you don't have to poll the sensor but instead get a notification on change03:41
qwazixmerlin1991, I tried with qtm but it didn't seem to fire the signal03:42
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qwazixgoogle doesn't give any useful results for N900 proximity sensor, so I just stole some code from another app in extras-something03:43
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qwazixqtm as in "code I wrote for harmattan and works"03:45
Estel_qwazix, as I've asked in TMO thread- what about CPu updating screen on 60hz?03:53
Estel_You overcame it by some trick of one-per-minute snapshot frozen or screen, or it's still issue?03:54
qwazixNo, I overcame it with showing the clock for only 6 seconds after the proximity sensor gets uncovered03:54
Estel_qwazix, as for N900 as mobile computer, I also use it as that mainly, to the point that I don't take notebook while travelling, just N900, portable usb keyboard and bluetooth mouse03:55
Estel_qwazix, ah03:55
Estel_so it's not showing clock all the time?03:55
qwazixSo even if you pull the N900 out of your pocket every five minutes the total time shouldn't be too much for all day03:55
Estel_kinda equivalent for clicking power button yourself, +, without backlight, it probably uses less power than lockscreen showing03:55
qwazixNo, I couldn't think of a better solution.03:55
Estel_sure, power usage should be minimal03:56
* Estel_ nods03:56
Estel_sounds sane, good work03:56
Estel_it's a pity that You can't force screen to show something and stop refreshing :P03:56
Estel_(until order given)03:56
Estel_refreshing it once per minute would suffice, then (with updated time) and it could stay without backlight all the time03:56
Estel_quite impossible, though, I suppose03:57
qwazixBut I was thinking about my usecase of the N9 idle screen. Most of the times I just pull it out glance at the time and put it back. Also if the N900 is on the table, it's far easier to hover your finger over the proximity sensor than press the power button03:57
Estel_BTW, I can confirm, that for "dissapearing leds" bug, power-cycle is a proper solution03:57
qwazix(which has a bug and needs two clicks most of the time)03:57
Estel_I mean this thing, where sudden of nothing, both notification led and backlight ledf refuses to work, and live through power down and booting again03:57
Estel_I got just hit by it today, and removing battery for 30 seconds fixed it03:57
qwazixYeah, happened to me yesterday03:58
Estel_qwazix, sure, Your clock is best we can achiueve, I suppose03:58
qwazixAnnoying, I wanted to test if it had powered down properly so that I could swap batteries03:58
Estel_after installation, one can actyivate and deactivate it on demand, without uninstalling?03:58
Estel_via config file, control panel thing or whatever?03:58
Estel_qwazix, yea :P03:59
qwazixno, there isn't such a feature right now03:59
Estel_but You know what?03:59
Estel_when You're testing it, and led goes on for a while03:59
Estel_You again need to wait few seconds for it to shut down totally03:59
Estel_I used to do such test, buit it's poiuntless, better to wait a short while after powering down03:59
qwazixyeah, I was pressing the power instantly to see if it starts to light up04:00
Estel_BTW, as said, I also use it as mobile computer, but as primary (and only one, to be honest) phone. I overcame battery things with dual-scud and mugen cover04:00
Estel_+ another dual-scud sitting in pocket04:00
qwazixand it booted again, so I had to wait for shutdown again04:00
Estel_soon, it will be even less of an issue, with 6800 mAh dual-1865004:00
Estel_in custom body04:00
* ShadowJK 's N900 is primary phone (secondary phone is another N900)04:00
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Estel_I wonder why led driver freaksd out like that... fortunately, it's not anything dangerous, i.e. it dissapear after cycle without any problems in months, many times04:01
qwazixI just carry an extra japod most of the time04:01
Estel_ShadowJK, haha04:01
ShadowJKEstel_, it's no joke :)04:01
qwazixI didn't go for mugen for the lack of camera cover04:01
Estel_ShadowJK, I know :)04:01
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Estel_I would do the same, if not for fact, that my secondary N900's are in constant move, i.e. sold to someone or given to family members04:01
ShadowJKAnd I don't use mugen* anymore, heh04:01
Estel_so usually I have few N900 in house, but only one "mine" forever ;)04:02
qwazixShadowJK, I also had that configuration for about a month or two, and then the N9 came out so I had to get one :)04:02
Estel_qwazix, wtf? I've posted tutorial how to add camera lens cover for muygen cover ages agfo04:02
Estel_in battery's thread04:02
Estel_it's also in my signature04:02
Estel_I wouldn't accept lack of camera lens cover, too04:02
qwazixreally? I never noticed that...04:03
Estel_see my signature on TMO :P04:03
ShadowJKI'm quite pleased, battery lasts for more than a shift at work while I'm online on irc and constantly listening to podcasts04:03
Estel_it's no-cost solution04:03
ShadowJKover bluetooth04:03
Estel_and works like a charm04:03
qwazixAnd I thought, I followed all interesting things on tmo04:03
* RST38h moos04:03
* ShadowJK follows nothing on tmo04:03
RST38hWhat's new and exciting?04:03
Estel_moo RST38h04:04
DocAvalanche>><Estel_> I've just ordered parts for usb to serial adaptor, and i'll make Ir receiver dongle for it, so it will learn signals from remotes<<  lame :-P04:04
RST38hShadowJK: Still using N900?04:04
ShadowJKRST38h, yes, absolutely04:04
Estel_DocAvalanche, why so?:)04:04
* RST38h switched to the Note lately04:04
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qwazixI think it's even more important on the N900 because as it came with one, maybe the glass isn't as scratch resistant as on phones where no cover exists04:04
qwazixI fear the N950 camera glass very much as it's flush with the body04:05
RST38h[but would really wish he didn't]04:05
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Estel_qwazix, the truth is that thing covering it is always plastic, and every is propne to scratches04:05
ShadowJKtmo is too high traffic / too high noise for me to follow04:05
Estel_camera lens cover is genious thing for N90004:05
Estel_qwazix, same here, I actually cut polycarbonate protector foil and sticked it to N95004:05
ShadowJKI wish I could get an N900 with more RAM and more cpu, but mostly more ram04:05
qwazixyes but couldn't they make the back flat?04:05
RST38htmo is probably full by eager but dumb fanatics by now04:05
Estel_ShadowJK, exactly my thoughts04:05
RST38hShadowJK: N9.04:05
DocAvalanchenifty IR learning tool consists of two components: a 3.5mm jack and a phototransistor04:06
ShadowJKRST38h, N9 is so much effort to make usable?04:06
RST38hShadowJK: The only app that manages to strain it is Firefox Mobile04:06
Estel_it's You who traced down same chips with 1GB of ram, impossible to solder without mega equipment, though04:06
RST38hShadowJK: nah, it is ok, we have got one in the family04:06
Estel_DocAvalanche, serial one is more powerful ;)04:06
ShadowJKAtleast on android there's a VPN api, so I have a remote chance of being able to read my email04:06
RST38hShadowJK: not as evil as free software people like to describe it, just quirky04:06
Estel_+ have added benefit of possibility to act as IRda for legacy devices04:06
ShadowJKreading email on the move, which I thought was a major progress with the arrival of N900 :-)04:07
Estel_DocAvalanche, nevertheless, any software for utilizing jack signal input as IR one for N900 exist?04:07
RST38hShadowJK: If you need VPN toread email, then maybe you do not need to read that email =)04:07
DocAvalanchearecord ;-)04:07
ShadowJKRST38h, i also need it for irc and webs :-\04:07
RST38hVPN? Why?04:07
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Estel_locked ports, probably, intranet04:08
Estel_DocAvalanche, arecord? will check it04:08
ShadowJKWithout openvpn I'd be disconnecting and reconnecting every 45 seconds or something, lol04:08
Estel_RST38h, don't make me lsit all fails of N9 as a mobile computer :P04:08
Estel_like capacitive screen04:08
Estel_or lack of you-know-what or even lack of-second-thing-you-know-about04:09
ShadowJKopenvpn is that which bridges the gap when my actual public IP isn't public or changes rapidly :)04:09
RST38hShadowJK: You are not using cellular IP?04:09
ShadowJKI've got an android tablet on the way to me anyways, let's see if I can make do with that04:09
RST38hOr your cellular service likes changing your IP address every minute?04:09
ShadowJKRST38h, what is "cellular IP"?04:09
RST38hLike, GPRS/3G/etc as opposed to Wifi04:09
Estel_DocAvalanche, how You want to transfer audio wave to good quality Ir signals understandable by other programs?04:10
* RST38h had no problem running IRC/SSH/etc via GPRS and UMTS04:10
RST38hEven on the move04:10
Estel_cellular connection have manyh cons, though :)04:11
Estel_coverage, price, transfer limits, ping04:11
DocAvalancheqwazix: afaik you could get IRQ driven input from random GPIO by using some sysfs or proc or dev GPIO interface04:11
ShadowJKAt home I get 3g upstairs and 2g downstairs, wifi AP1 west end of house and wifi AP2 east end of house. Mostly only east AP when outside. openvpn makes it all perfectly seamless. :-)04:11
Estel_no wifi repeater mode, though?04:12
RST38hYou live in a castle? =)04:12
ShadowJKRST38h, I do not04:12
ShadowJKit's made out of wood04:12
RST38hand that too - a few repeaters would probably solve the problem04:12
Estel_so it's a fort04:12
Estel_seriously though, it's not uncommon04:12
RST38hShadowJK: >8cm of wood?04:12
ShadowJKRST38h, yes04:12
DocAvalancheEstel_: maybe by a 5-liner checking for absolute value maximum of a window of samples covering 1/40kHz04:12
ShadowJKThere's not enough free spectrum for a repeater04:12
RST38hShadowJK: Sounds serious04:13
Estel_DocScrutinizer, sure, but who will code that, if one can put serial adaptor via hostmode :P04:13
qwazixDocAvalanche, ehm I'd say that's greek to me but as I am Greek this wouldn't give the right message.04:13
ShadowJKnot on 2.4Ghz atleast04:13
Estel_I know theory, I asked about ready to use tools04:13
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* RST38h lived at the end of a 20m concrete funnel from the AP, and it was still ok04:13
ShadowJKNeighbour has one AP, so that leaves 2 frequencies available, and those are the frequencies used by the APs installed at either end of the house.04:13
Estel_qwazix, he mean that proximity sensor is GPIO04:13
Estel_(general purpose input-ouput)04:13
Estel_and that you could read it from sysfs or proc04:14
Estel_or GPIO interface04:14
RST38hShadowJK: Switch to 802.11n, get one AP with many antennas04:14
RST38hShadowJK: Will need a new phone though =(04:14
Estel_as for IRQ driven input, he would explain it better04:14
Estel_RST38h, 802.11n sucks04:14
Estel_it's good only for jamming neighbourns wifi04:14
DocAvalancheqwazix: I think I heard the *wrt guys talking about it04:15
Estel_ShadowJK, AIUI, proper repeater repeats on same frequency?04:15
ShadowJKOne of the APs have 11n with 3 antennas. It has shorter range than the WRT54GL with tomato firmware...04:15
Estel_also, the thing about total of 3 non-interlapping frequencies is true, but little overexagerrated04:15
ShadowJKEstel_, and halves bandwidth for every repeat?04:15
Estel_m,y neighbourns use all possible channels04:15
Estel_and I still have perfectly working wifi on high speeds and wide coverage04:15
Estel_ShadowJK, no idea, never played with repeaters in real life ;)04:15
Estel_instead, I have wrt54gl with DIY antennas04:16
DocAvalancheqwazix: it's like "cd /sysfoo/hw/buttons; echo GPIO56 >enable; cat gpio56"04:16
Estel_could connect to it from next multi-house block04:16
ShadowJKmine has the 9dBm antennas04:16
ShadowJKor whatever, iirc 3 or 6dB over stock04:16
Estel_ShadowJK, they have 9dB in producent dreams, trust me on that (tm)04:17
qwazixDocAvalanche, and how do I get a signal that the value has changed?04:17
ShadowJKIt's pretty spotty outside though. I can connect with phone at 50m if I stand in the right place, but there's no "universal" coverage even at 20m outside (transmitter is indoors)04:17
Estel_You either tunnel rango into shape that suits Your need, or you have flat one, only one gain possible via antennas is spectrum shaping04:17
DocAvalancheqwazix: on cursory read I think you wanna know this:
Estel_ShadowJK, because those 9dB antennas have stupid spectrum shape, probably04:18
Estel_it's quite possible, that they emit msot power straight up04:18
Estel_in extreme case04:18
ShadowJKThe unmodified 11n AP with original 3 antennas in place does worse :-)04:19
Estel_I suspect good DIY fractal is something that would make you King of the Hill, aka Your neighbourns would need to worry about free frequencies :P04:19
Estel_ShadowJK, sure, as 802.11n sucks04:19
Estel_it's good for having high bandwidth in 5 meters between router and desk04:19
DocAvalancheqwazix: still polling :-/04:19
Estel_+ in some models to jam surrounding g networks04:20
ShadowJKIf I put fractal antenna on first floor, there'll only be one single neighbour within the radio horizon to worry about.04:20
DocAvalancheqwazix: ...but I *think* I've seen a way to attach a 'callback'04:20
Estel_ShadowJK, I was rather about fractal of correwct shape and turned correctly, to shape radio spectrum to your needs04:20
Estel_i.e. solid coverage where You need it04:21
Estel_and no free wifi for birds04:21
Estel_or passing helis04:21
DocAvalancheqwazix:  >>Configure GPIO an an interrupt source<<04:21
Estel_for example, simple sierpinski gasket fractal antenna - few minutes of work - is able to provide 1000 meter reliable link between two wrt54gl. But, it's spectrum is VERY wide, very directional04:22
Estel_antennas are all abotu resoning to required frequency (I hope that producent of those 9dB haven't screwed that) and shaping spectrum, no other magic gain possible04:22
ShadowJKnomatter what I do, there will be disconnects though04:22
Estel_it's gain in some aprt of spectrum's shape, and loss in another04:22
ShadowJKwhich is the original topic04:22
Estel_with one router covering house and garden?04:22
DocAvalancheqwazix: >>If you have a GPIO that is an input, and you have an application you want to block waiting for the GPIO to change level, you can configure the GPIO as an interrupt source. You also need to configure if the interrupt occurs when the GPIO signal has a rising edge, a falling edge, or interrupts on both rising and falling edges. Once configured as an interrupt, your application can read the value file and the read will block until the04:23
DocAvalancheinterrupt occurs, then your application will return from the read system call and continue running.<<04:23
ShadowJKEstel_, the range is finite04:23
Estel_qwazix, instead of reinventing whell, why won't You just use shortcutd daemon?04:23
Estel_ShadowJK, You've said You don't live in castle ;)04:23
Estel_sure, I'm not insisting, it's Your wifi after all04:23
ShadowJKEstel_, the range is still finite04:23
Estel_but I nyet have to see single-family house, that can't be covered byt single, properly configured and "antenna'ed" wrt54GL04:24
DocAvalancheqwazix: now say "thank you, doc!" ;-P04:24
Estel_well, one of them, set up by me, is providing access for 100+ people in multi-family block house04:24
Estel_SINGLE unit04:24
ShadowJKThe living house is wood, but the buildings outside are brick or concrete or more wood04:24
Estel_wait, how far away from home You want wifi to exist?04:24
ShadowJKEstel_, no that's wrong question, I want connectivity to exist seamlessly everywhere04:25
Estel_qwazix, again, I think that there is already daemon used by shortcutd thing, for power-save savvy polling of proxim04:25
qwazixDocAvalanche, thanks I'm still trying to fit all these new concepts around my head04:25
Estel_ShadowJK, inside those concrete or brick buildings too?04:26
Estel_asking seriously, no irony04:26
Estel_I though You want to have reliable wifi in wooden house, and it's garden04:26
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Estel_which IMO and from my experience, is easily possiuble with single used wrt54GL with openWRT on board, and DIY antennas04:27
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Estel_even more than that04:27
ShadowJKWith N800, N810 and N900 currently running openvpn, it doesn't matter if I'm at home inside, or outside checking up on the potatos, being shaded from wifi by hte concrete barn, or 100km away on a shopping trip, openvpn makes it all seamless across wifis and cellular04:27
Estel_of course, if You have special needs like wifi in some bujildings outside, more aps may be necessary04:27
Estel_as for cellular, it's true04:27
Estel_kinda conveinent04:27
Estel_well, I think everyone have own usage pattern, and N900 is wonderful to allow so much flexibility04:28
Estel_well, it's real mobile computer, after all04:28
Estel_this more RAM would make us all happy :)04:28
ShadowJKMy home lan has 3 different paths to internet, there's an openvpn server on the lan that automatically picks another connection if the current internet connection isn't working :-)04:29
Estel_failsafe solution, neat04:29
Estel_I hope You know that I wasn't trying to insist You change Your net layout ;) i'm just "wifi freak" doing this strange things like wifi link over harbour or whatever04:29
ShadowJKspeeds are 100M, 2M, 5k :-)04:30
Estel_using chinese dishesh etc04:30
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qwazixEstel_, seems that shortcutd uses dbus, I didn't know there was a dbus interface for proximity sensor04:30
ShadowJKUsually when I get home everything is running on the 5k which has superior reliability04:31
Estel_that's why I've suggested it :)04:31
Estel_it isn't switching back to faster one, when available?04:31
qwazixor I'm just dizzy from all the info Doc gave me and it's 5AM04:31
Estel_qwazix, benefit of shortcutd is that it's already ready, available in repos and written ;)04:31
Estel_Other things, Yolu would need to create from scratch, mostly04:32
Estel_ShadowJK, while we have You here, small unrelated question, if You don't mind. It's only me, or Pr 1.2 on N950 made charging white-led notification-less?04:32
qwazixThat's what I tried to do, copy a written program, but it seems I chose the wrong one...04:32
Estel_i.e. before update,. while charging with screen of, it was breathing, like N90004:32
Estel_now it isn't04:32
Estel_qwazix, for shortcutd, you don't even need to copy it04:33
Estel_it consist of two packages04:33
Estel_daemon, and shortcutd we all use04:33
Estel_the latter depends on the former04:33
Estel_but the former can be polled by any othyer program04:33
qwazixaha, so I could just depend on it04:33
Estel_yea and use it's functions04:33
qwazixso that's why it uses dbus04:33
Estel_tfor sure they're documented on garage, or inside daemon prompt itself, or...04:33
qwazixit just communicates with the daemon04:34
Estel_shadeslayer, it fuckin irritates me, as I never know if N950 is charged or not, without unclocking it04:34
qwazixI was checking source of the latter04:34
Estel_yea :)04:34
DocAvalanchenow our council could jump in and say "waaaaait! does our kernel even support /sys/class/gpio ?", check that, and possibly pester pali to include it to next KP if missing04:34
Estel_don't you know that Council is made for "higher" and "bigger" things? ;)04:35
Estel_or at least that is how I will remember them, unfortunately, but it's unrelated topic which I don't want to go into04:36
ShadowJKEstel_, as far as I'm concerned, N950 does not exist for normal people, and the fact that you are asking questions about it implies that you have one, which makes me extremely jelous. Go away with your N950 and your other extremely fortunate and extremely rich buddies into #harmattan or something?04:36
DocAvalanchet900:/sys/class# ls -l gpio/04:36
DocAvalanche--w-------    1 root     root         4096 Jul 28 03:44 export04:36
DocAvalanchedrwxr-xr-x    3 root     root            0 Jul 28 03:44 gpiochip004:36
Estel_ShadowJK, sorry, I was sure You have one too?04:36
DocAvalanchedrwxr-xr-x    3 root     root            0 Jul 28 03:44 gpiochip12804:36
DocAvalanchet900:/sys/class# uname -a04:37
DocAvalancheLinux t900 #1 PREEMPT Sun Dec 12 03:11:24 EET 2010 armv7l unknown04:37
Estel_ShadowJK, don't be jealous, it's ncie device at one side, but leaves You with sad feeling or wasted potential and idiotic design decisions in other side04:37
ShadowJKEstel_, I'm not part of the millionaire's club, sorry. I apologize if my humble appearance is similar to someone else you saw on the exclusive VIP club luxury sailing boat yacht meet.04:37
Estel_BTW, DocScrutinizer also have one :P04:37
Estel_sure ;)04:37
Estel_Why haven't You submitted for CA?04:37
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Estel_you would get one in instant04:38
qwazixEstel_, DocAvalanche, proximityd of shortcutd also polls the proximity sensor, about the same that I'm doing04:38
Estel_as for millionaire's club, You're just joking around, or You share my feeling, that after some years it will be quite expensive collector's device?04:39
qwazixso we can safely assume that it doesn't suck up too much battery ;)04:39
Estel_qwazix, but with proximityd You don't have two things polling it, if someone is using shortcutd04:39
Estel_and already written and tested solution04:39
Estel_but yes, it shouldn't04:39
DocAvalancheqwazix: polling (as in reading on a time pace) *always* sucks04:39
Estel_still, I think modularity is great thing, and if we have daemon for that in repos, we should use it04:39
DocAvalancheboth battery and in general04:40
Estel_DocAvalanche, in practice it's neglible04:40
DocAvalancheand in reaction time04:40
Estel_bbut if better solution exist, it could be used for updating proximityd to use better method ;)04:40
DocAvalancheEstel_: depends on polling frequency04:40
Estel_DocAvalanche, sure04:40
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Estel_qwazix, another advantage of using proximityd is that You could have co-existing usage of proximity sensor when phone is unlocked, for shortcutd, and for Your timenow when it's locked04:41
Estel_otherwise, you have conflicts04:41
Estel_and, of course, when someone use both, 2 things will poll same sensor unnecessary04:41
qwazixEstel_, agreed, and it seems that proximityd also does some cleverer polling by adjusting the frequency04:41
Estel_sucking 2x power04:41
* Estel_ nods04:41
Estel_ShadowJK, but seriously, whyt haven't you applied for CA, you would get N950 without questions asked, I suppose04:42
DocAvalancheqwazix: will proximityd read my mind to know when to ramp up polling frequency? ;-)04:42
Estel_DocAvalanche, sure04:42
ShadowJKwtf is CA?04:42
Estel_ShadowJK, what WAS CA04:43
Estel_it was Community Awards04:43
DocAvalancheShadowJK: that 'awards' madness04:43
Estel_25 devices from Nokia, including 10 N950 and 15 N9, that were meant to be awarded NOT for developers only, but for community Contributors04:43
Estel_with 3 week's time for sending applications, and anothyer week for Council to debate about winners04:43
ShadowJKI'd seriously hope there'd be 25 more qualified than myself04:43
Estel_freemangordon, Pali, and such guys got it, for example04:44
DocAvalancheShadowJK: hardly04:44
Estel_ShadowJK, you wouldn't belive some people that submitted04:44
Estel_and I agree with DocAvalanche04:44
Estel_sure, merlin1991, freemangordon, Pali, etc are very active and would be higher than You, but You would still get one without problems04:44
ShadowJKIt would be a clever tactic from elop anyway, offering harmattan devices to fremantle people? Fragment it further?04:44
Estel_trust me on that (tm) I was part of jury ;)904:44
qwazixDocAvalanche, no I just suppose, the application using it can request polling frequency by usage case, didn't read all of the code, I just saw some frequency adjusting code. For example when device is unlocked timenow doesn't need to poll the sensor04:44
Estel_ShadowJK, this time, no04:45
DocAvalancheShadowJK: all your stuff is top notch, regarding contributions to community asset04:45
Estel_rather it was Qgil who liked to forward devices to0 community instead of trash bin04:45
ShadowJKI would've applied if they'd offered N900s04:45
Estel_ShadowJK, BTw, people that are doing most work for fremantle, especially increased lately, also received devices04:45
Estel_they don't think about switching to harmattan04:45
DocAvalancheqwazix: fair enough, almost as stupid as QTM sensors then04:46
Estel_alternatively, despite 100 devices (25 was jsut for Ca, other 75 devices were handled for "developers"), #harmattan channel is rather filled with rats shit04:46
Estel_like ZogG's writing04:46
GeneralAntillesAd hominem.04:47
Estel_not something like conversations on Maemo. today I had 831 lines to read, all of them discussion between freemangordon, Pali, merlin1991, etc, about actual things they write for Maemo04:47
GeneralAntillesLast warning.04:47
Estel_GeneralAntilles, had no idea you're around ;p04:47
Estel_forgive me04:47
GeneralAntillesKeep things positive. :)04:47
ShadowJKGeneralAntilles, I'm sorry I promise I wont do it again?04:47
DocAvalancheGeneralAntilles and me are *always* around04:48
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, yeah, yeah. :P04:48
Estel_Ok, #harmattan channel is filled with flower scent, where we're on industrially productive mood here on #maemo04:48
qwazixEstel_, did you have a N810 before N90004:48
ShadowJKEstel_, please don't laugh at man being opressed by the authority :-(04:48
Estel_nope. If one day i'll be a "millionare club" like in ShadowJK jokes, I wil lbuy one for collection04:48
GeneralAntillesSome watery tart threw me a sword.04:48
GeneralAntillesSo, nyaaaaaaa04:49
* ShadowJK sighs04:49
Estel_qwazix, why asking?04:49
qwazixI just got one, and I realized that if I had one when the N900 got out I would be totally pissed with the direction fremantle went04:49
Estel_qwazix, having mobile network and phone funcionality doesn't hurt ;)04:49
Estel_while lack of camera lens cover, microSd slot, and capacitive screen does :(04:50
Estel_sure, 810 had better kickstand, but it is fixable04:50
qwazixThat's why I didn't get one when it was fresh04:50
Estel_if only via replacement body project04:50
qwazixBut the screen seems huge compared to the N900,04:50
Estel_You won't add missing microSd slot or replace digitizer, though :( on N950/N904:50
Estel_qwazix, yea, but resolution is same04:50
qwazixthe applications available were pc-grade while on the N900 for the first six months we couldnt open a zip file04:51
Estel_but it's true, that many people felt this way then04:51
DocAvalancheqwazix: in very old chanlogs you can read me ranting about fremantle GUI's retardedness compared to diablo04:51
Estel_still, I'm afraid N9/50 flaws are more serious and less possible to fix04:51
qwazixres is the same, but the huge thumbable buttons eat a great deal of the real estate04:51
Estel_I though open kernel kilols aegis...04:51
qwazixand the digitizer is much more sensitive04:52
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Estel_yet, yesterday, MohammadAG told me that they can't drop-in things from Pr 1.3 to N950, because of aegis and file itnegrity checks04:52
Estel_harmattan sounds like fckd in head unfixable (I hope it isn't ad hominem:P )04:52
qwazixIt's like I have a laptop in my pocket. Anyway, today the N810 is almost useless due to lack of RAM, it bogs down even on tmo, not to mention heavy websites04:52
Estel_it would be no problem if Mer hardware adaptation for N950 and N9 would be finished, but it isn't and probably never will04:53
DocAvalancheYEAAAAH! thunder! \o/04:53
DocAvalanche~weather eddn04:53
infobotNuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2012.07.28 0120 UTC; Dew Point: 60 F (16 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.80 in. Hg (1009 hPa); Relative Humidity: 60%; Sky conditions: mostly cloudy; Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Weather: 75 F (24 C); Wind: from the N (010 degrees) at 10 MPH (9 KT) (direction variable)04:53
Estel_Riders of the Storm04:53
GeneralAntillesDocAvalanche, you hate change just as much as me, don't you? :P04:54
qwazixyet today Fremantle is all a geek would need, so I don't give up hopes on harmattan yet04:54
Estel_qwazix, before I make the same mistake again - you own N950 or N9?04:54
Estel_god bless You. you know, for someone jumping few days ago, N950 landing page on wiki have only few details... Could You Pm me, on TMo, in free moment, links to essential threads (about essential things) for Harm?04:55
qwazixUSB host mode for example was deemed unfixable for the N900, it was stated so many times that it was impossible that when I saw announce thread I was sure it was a hoax04:55
Estel_searching for it on TMO, for someone who haven't followed harmatytan thing sicne last few days, iks kinda...04:55
Estel_I would liek to bring N950 to some usable stage04:55
Estel_Kinda crazy week, I have to install thumb on N900, play with N950, and play with two raspberry Pi's lying on my desk04:56
ShadowJKThere's still, afaik, no comprehensive page available that tells you how to fix the N9 braindamage04:56
Estel_ShadowJK, exactly04:56
ShadowJKMain reasons why I've not bought one.04:56
GeneralAntillesAnybody else pitch in on the MetaWatch kickstarter?04:56
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Estel_qwazix is quite fluent in TMO, that's why I asked him for lsit of most improtant topics, that he for sure have subscribed :P04:56
qwazixEstel_, will do, probably set up a wiki page. But now it's too late. Tomorrow if I find some time04:56
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DocAvalancheGeneralAntilles: indeed (hate change)04:57
Estel_qwazix, sure, thanks a lot04:57
ShadowJKAnd instead ordered an android tablet as a first step to figure out how to migrate and make the android environment usable and interoperable04:57
GeneralAntillesFuck change!!!04:57
Estel_just ping me with it when you will have time and do it, ok? so I won't miss it04:57
Estel_ShadowJK, making android usable is even more PITa than with harmattan04:57
qwazixShadowJK, on the other hand I do think that android is unfixable04:57
Estel_better stick to N900 ;)04:57
* ShadowJK has a few N900 halflifes of time to figure it out04:57
Estel_ShadowJK, mission impossible04:58
Estel_android is jsut brainfucked in head even more04:58
Estel_You could expect jolla and Mer sooner ;)04:58
ShadowJKYeah :)04:58
ShadowJKOr a X emulator on android04:58
qwazixAndroid has too much of windows philosophy.04:58
ShadowJKwhere X is anything that can run linux04:58
Estel_ShadowJK, emulator? Thats why you need those 3254623656432 cores on tablet?04:59
Estel_I though just to allow them spying on You and encrypting content on the fly, + shedule it with legit traffic04:59
ShadowJKhalf of them to run javascript04:59
FIQ|n900android is unlinuxized linux04:59
Estel_well, windows mobile is also based on linux, after all04:59
Estel_why not android04:59
ShadowJKProblem is obviously that there's no maemo tablet05:00
FIQ|n900I think that android can't handle multicore properly05:00
qwazixwindows mobile based on linux??05:00
ShadowJKNot anything newer than 2008 anyway05:00
FIQ|n900[04:00:15] <Estel_> well, windows mobile is also based on linux, after all05:00
FIQ|n900that doesn't make sense05:00
Estel_don't know about current versions, but 6 had more common with linux than windows on desktop, of course, being idiotically closed05:01
qwazixPitchforks and GPL at hand and to the microsoft offices05:01
Estel_I'm reffering to Android "openess" philosophy05:01
Estel_qwazix, haha05:01
qwazixby the way some guys here attacked the MS offices with stones and molotovs...05:01
Estel_well, Android is as Open as google doesn't do evil05:01
Estel_qwazix, they didn't liekd leaked windows 8 betas?>;)05:02
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Estel_but seriously, why so?05:02
qwazixhahaha... don't know really? activists of a kind?05:02
ShadowJKgoogle abandoned the "do no evil" policy like half a decade ago?05:02
Estel_kinda bitchy way of activity, to attack low-rank microsoft workers05:02
qwazixs/?/ /05:02
infobotqwazix meant: hahaha... don't know really  activists of a kind?05:02
ShadowJKWhen they figured out that they could redefine evil05:02
Estel_ShadowJK, Android was also open source half decadce ago ;P05:03
Estel_but jokes aside - everyone is free to invest own money whenever want, but in case of lacking good devices05:03
Estel_I wouldn't support bad ones via my money05:03
Estel_I'm using what I like, no one will force me to me3ss with fckin android05:04
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ShadowJKFor me the choice seems to be between W7 and android05:04
Estel_if Jolla will provide, that's great. If not, well, IO have N900, and hope for community-driven hardware :)05:04
FIQ|n900ShadowJK: fun choice05:04
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Estel_ShadowJK, Vivaldi?05:04
FIQ|n900do android05:04
ShadowJKWhat is vivaldi?05:04
Estel_it have to arrive some day :P05:04
FIQ|n900wp7 is a living dead05:04
ShadowJKI did not say WP7, I said W705:05
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Estel_ShadowJK, ^05:05
qwazixBye guys, I'm off to bed05:05
ShadowJKI have a W7 netbook. The performance is great. The display pisses me off. The touchpad pisses me off. The keyboard is great.05:06
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Estel_the system doesn't piss You off?:P05:06
Estel_see ya qwazix05:06
ShadowJKit's down on my list of things05:06
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DocAvalanchegoldelico will (probably) produce a 7" or larger version of GTA0405:07
ShadowJKbelow screen and pointing device05:07
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DocAvalancheand also a device with OMAP4 is planned05:07
Estel_DocAvalanche, it will still cost moar $$$$$ for 256 Mb RAM?05:07
ShadowJKomap3 with 1gig ram would be sufficient05:07
Estel_ShadowJK, and what are your thoughts about vivaldi thing?05:08
ShadowJKin any formfactor >=3.5" :-)05:08
ShadowJKWhat is vivaldi?05:08
Estel_sure, capacitive screen sucks, but other than that...05:08
Estel_Mer and plasma active05:08
Estel_pasted it already ;)05:08
Estel_few lines above05:08
Estel_do you see links?05:08
Estel_or irc obscured them, somehow?05:08
DocAvalanchenot unusual05:08
ShadowJKit says internal storage is 8g instead of 4g05:09
ShadowJKfor more info click this05:09
* ShadowJK clicks05:09
Estel_ShadowJK, screw that, it contains sd slot05:09
Estel_1Gb RAM05:09
ShadowJKand I get to "ideas to build content stores on"05:09
Estel_screw that too05:09
Estel_based on Mer05:09
Estel_with open UI as plasma active05:09
DocAvalancheSTORAGE?? 8 jig? dafaq05:09
Estel_and upstream kernel05:09
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Estel_acceptable hardware specs05:09
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Estel_storage is least olf concern with slot for full-sized sd cards05:10
FIQ|n900DocAvalanche: more isn't needed05:10
ShadowJKDocAvalanche, does 7" mean they managed to find someone with a 3D printer or similar? or is it still caseless?05:10
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DocAvalanchethere's already a 3D printed GTA02 case05:10
DocAvalanchein white ;-D05:11
ShadowJKLast time I checked you needed a freerunner case05:11
DocAvalanchenope, you *can* get a complete device as well, afaik05:11
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DocAvalancheincl case and LCM05:12
FIQ|n900hi ZogG_laptop05:12
ShadowJKAnyway, re W7, it's pretty amazing how my netbook with atom processor is more than enough in performance to run W7, but it's paired with such a shit screen that it makes me rage looking at it, and a touchpad that is not only small, but has no tactile feedback of where it starts and where it ends, and of course, no touch layer on the screen.05:13
FIQ|n900w7 with atom...?05:13
ShadowJKIf you want proper screen, proper pointing device (touchpad/touchlayer), all that's left are i5/i7 monsters that cost ludicrous amounts of money05:14
ShadowJKFIQ|n900, sure05:14
DocAvalancheShadowJK: epic fail in design, I'd say05:14
FIQ|n900argh wasps..05:15
DocAvalancheShadowJK: get a PanaTB CF-29 ;-D - comes even with kinda working touchscreen05:15
ShadowJKSo if there had been a netbook available, with an IPS or better screen, a touchscreen and touchpad (for when you have to mess with precise crap) (as touchpad wouldn't be primary pointing device, I'd accept lack of tactile borders here), and same cpu/ram specs as existing notebooks, I'd been sold05:15
ShadowJKand ordered that instead of an android05:16
DocAvalancheor get the CF-1905:16
ShadowJKWhat's a CF-19?05:16
DocAvalancheconvertable, though a tad smaller05:16
DocAvalanchethan the CF-2905:16
DocAvalancheexactly size of a proper netbook05:17
ShadowJKWhat are those05:17
DocAvalanchepanasomic toughbook05:17
FIQ|n900\topic #maemo05:18
ShadowJKYeah so my netbook cost me 300 for 10 hours battery life, dual core atom, 2 g ram, 10" SHIT screen05:18
ShadowJKtablet is 600 for quad+1 core cpu, 1 g ram, decent screen05:18
ShadowJKand android handicap05:18
ShadowJKpanasonic toughbook is like 3k+?05:19
DocAvalanchegood condition05:19
ShadowJKI might as well spend that on ebay N950 ;-)05:19
DocAvalanchewell, if you can find a N950 for 30005:19
DocAvalanchestill the pana TB has a *hw* kbd05:20
ShadowJKIt's somewhat messed up that I prefer N900 for most surfing compared to netbook05:21
ShadowJKBecause hte touchpad is such a crippling factor05:21
DocAvalancheTB come with touch*screen*05:22
ShadowJKProbably if the netbook had same shit screen but with a touch layer, it'd be much more usable05:22
DocAvalanchethe touchpad is actually tiny crap05:22
ShadowJKor if it came with a not-shit touchpad05:22
ShadowJKBiggest issue is that it's seamlessly integrated into the case05:23
ShadowJKSo you don't know where it begins and where it ends05:23
* ShadowJK has been cursin and swearing while tapping harder and harder, only to realize he was tapping outside the touch area05:24
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DocAvalancheapply stickytape?05:24
FIQ|n900what idiot came up with that design solution?05:24
ShadowJKI dunno, but I bet his/her title had "designer" in it05:30
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ShadowJKtape idea is nice, I'll try that05:30
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DocAvalanchethe rightmost col is the best ;-D05:32
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sidusnareanyone have sugested reading for bootstraping maemo on other devices? I have some WinCE devices I would like to refalsh, preferable not have to chain load06:46
jacekowskieasy, if you can get the drivers07:09
sidusnareI can roll a kernel, its looks like common enough hardware, its the bootstraper I need really, and how to get it in there, I have a bus pirate, logic analyser, and a hand hull of teensys, so I should be able to do something07:11
sidusnareits a PXA255 in a symbol hand scanner07:11
jacekowskisidusnare: it depends on device07:12
sidusnareSymbol MC9000w07:13
Hurriansidusnare, start with a debian bringup07:19
sidusnare"debian bringup" ?07:19
Hurriankernel + debian rootfs07:20
Hurrianfremantle-hildon-desktop and company are buildable from the gitorious07:20
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ensoeHello. I'm in a big dilemma. My n900 no longer wants to boot up. When I hook up the USB cable, it just seems to boot up and boot up in a loop. At this point I don't even mind to flash, but as long as I can save my data/contacts/sms/etc... anyone can point me to the right direction?08:49
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jonwilTry this10:04
jonwilRemove the battery10:04
jonwilPlug the USB cable in10:04
jonwilopen the slide of the phone10:04
jonwilInsert the battery and hold down the U key at the same time10:04
jonwilsee what happens with the USB enumeration10:04
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jonwilPali: ping11:53
Palijonwil, pong11:53
jonwilI saw your email11:53
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jonwilI haven't identified where most of those interfaces come from yet11:54
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user___freemangordon: ping11:58
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freemangordonvi_: ^^^11:59
vi_good morning squire.11:59
freemangordongood morning11:59
vi_you wanted some stats wrt memory useage of thumb vs non-thumb.11:59
freemangordon(if such possible)12:00
vi_can you suggest exactly what it is you want?12:00
vi_for example,12:00
vi_a person can: pmap <browserd pid>12:00
vi_is that the kind of thing you want?12:01
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freemangordonTBH not sure, that is why I am not doing it by myself12:02
freemangordonbut pmap might do dthe job12:02
freemangordonon the other hand RSS should do the job too. And I have NFC what is better12:03
freemangordonvi_: ^^^12:04
vi_have a look at that.12:04
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freemangordonvi_: hmm, scratch that12:07
freemangordonthis is too complicated to be used12:07
freemangordonin genereal, what is good to be seens is the difference in RAM usage of the whole system12:07
freemangordonas 2-3 MB less usage from browserd means nothing (general speaking)12:08
freemangordonor even 4-512:08
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kerioi thought that one of the big things was the less time that takes to bring less data in and out of swap12:10
freemangordonvi__: maybe get free RAM and swap usage after reboot, when device has settled down (for 10 mins lets say), open TMO and measure RAM/swap usage12:10
freemangordondo the same with thumb-compiled system12:11
freemangordonkerio: yes, but how much12:11
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vi_...stupid wifi.12:11
freemangordonvi_: check the backscroll12:11
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vi_I cannot, I was disconnected. unless there is somthing I do not know about irc?12:12
freemangordonok, i'll paste it for you12:12
freemangordon<freemangordon> vi_: hmm, scratch that12:12
freemangordon<freemangordon> this is too complicated to be used12:12
freemangordon<freemangordon> in genereal, what is good to be seens is the difference in RAM usage of the whole system12:12
freemangordon<freemangordon> vi__: maybe get free RAM and swap usage after reboot, when device has settled down (for 10 mins lets say), open TMO and measure RAM/swap usage12:13
freemangordon<freemangordon> do the same with thumb-compiled system12:13
freemangordonvi_: ok now?12:13
freemangordonthat one too:12:14
freemangordon<freemangordon> as 2-3 MB less usage from browserd means nothing (general speaking)12:14
freemangordon<freemangordon> or even 4-512:14
freemangordonvi_: here?12:16
vi_ok.  As far as I can tell you have uploaded an update to the the thumb repo (version 12?). I will hold off updating (I ams till V11) till I can do as you have suggested above and put the results on the TMO thread.12:17
freemangordonvi_: the comparison should be between thumified and non-thumbified system12:18
vi_I will try and get someone running non thumbmto do the same.12:18
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freemangordonyou can boldly upgrade to v12 as it free about 1200KiB12:18
freemangordonyeap, using newer toolchain saves even more space12:19
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vi_freemangordon: I have a lot of stuff not starting on boot. modest, addressbook, web etc.12:19
freemangordonvi_: again, the test should be made on a freshly flashed device12:20
vi_that helps save some ram.12:20
freemangordoninstall cssu-testing, measure RAM/swap12:20
freemangordoninstall -thumb12:20
freemangordonmeasure RAM/swap12:20
freemangordoncomapre the abovce values ;)12:21
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vi_freemangordon: well we can put the call out for someone on TMO who has a spare device to flash + record results.12:21
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freemangordonor even better: flash, restore your applications, install cssu-testing, measure12:21
freemangordoninstall -thumb, measure12:21
freemangordonyou got the idea12:22
vi_hell, I will put a bounty on it.  1 pizza.12:22
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freemangordonvi_: right now i have some family duties, so won't be able to do anything before late afternoon12:23
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LaoLang_coolHi, how to share pc networking via usb?12:39
LaoLang_coolIs is possible?12:39
infobotLaoLang_cool meant: Is it possible?12:40
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jonwilPali: You said before that replacing wl1251-cal and bluetooth-cal would allow the replacement of various non-standard kernel interfaces with standard ones, is that correct?12:46
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jonwildamn, pali must have left :(13:24
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Paliping DocScrutinizer15:56
kerioohai Pali15:57
kerioPali: usbmode gui feature request: manual speed choice and manual enumeration15:59
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ensoeHello. My phone almost died on me. I managed to flash it and I tried to only flash the kernel. Is there any way to retrieve the data back after it's actually already gone?16:02
kerioensoe: you what to do what?16:03
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ensoeI was on the phone for hours, i had it charged via the usb cord. I guess the phone didn't like that (I need to add that it's an overclocked, only at 800 but still oced). Suddenly the phone ran out of battery - I had just shortly plugged in the usb cable to recharge it when it notified me that the battery was running out16:04
ensoeresult: phone turned itself off. When it turned it back on, it would keep looping and looping by itself - then i tried to use boot menu to restore an image i just backed up recently - well, battery died right in i was stuck with a phone that would barely turn on - I had trouble flashing but wanted to flash only the kernel. i'm currently presented with a newly flashed n900 i suppose - I'm trying to get my files back that w16:05
keriowhy didn't you wait for a full charge, dammit16:06
ensoepanic - pure panic16:06
keriowhat did you flash?16:06
ensoei didn't know either16:06
kerioalso doesn't that mean that you have backups?16:06
ensoei did the combined first, it rebooted and gave me the whole region setup welcome screen but said MISSING IMAGE everywhere ...I read and searched on google16:06
kerioyou half restored a backup16:07
ensoeturned out I needed to do eMMC first, then not boot, and flash the combined afterwards. I went ahead and did that..but well, now I lost all my files.16:07 flashed eMMC16:07
kerioyou restored the n900 to factory conditions16:07
ensoeI'm afraid i did that16:07
kerioyou may try to undelete stuff in MyDocs, but apart from that, your files are hosed16:07
ensoehow do I undelete?16:07
RiDi always flash it the fastest way....but now i forgot16:07
kerioPali: too little too late16:08
RiDis it emmc first or root?16:08
keriohe flashed everything16:08
infobotmethinks rescue-os is, or, or
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ensoeI did PR 1.3 first,16:08
kerioRiD: both at the same time, order doesn't matter - it's safer if you flash root first, because flashing emmc first and then booting is Bad16:08
ensoethen it booted up with MISSING IMAGE16:08
keriobut if you flash root first you have to powercycle because you just flashed NOLO16:08
ensoeso I read and did eMMC first (kernel only) and then I did COMBINED again16:08
kerioflashing emmc and then, without rebooting, flashing root is the fastest16:09
ensoeyes Nolo was flashed it told me16:09
kerioensoe: wasn't talking to you16:09
kerioensoe: try any vfat undeleting utility16:09
ensoeso what's this rescue-os?16:09
keriois the n900 on right now?16:09
ensoekerio: yes it's on right now16:09
ensoei'm using testdisk to go in and see16:09
qwazixhow much time does it take for garage to update ssh keys? It keeps rejecting me...16:10
ensoebut it's not showing much except for the factory default directories/files16:10
kerioyeah but you're supposed to stay the fuck away from any disk you want to undelete files from16:10
keriousing one... is bad16:10
ensoekerio: i could kill myself right now. what are my options from here?16:11
ensoethis rescue-os that something i can look into?16:11
keriothere's no "magic", you just have to hope you haven't overwritten a lot of your files16:11
keriothe stuff on your rootfs is as good as dead16:11
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keriothe stuff on the eMMC optfs is probably dead too, the stuff on the eMMC vfat (MyDocs) could be saved in a tiny part16:12
kerioplug in to a computer in mass storage mode, make sure you don't mount it, or mount it read-only16:12
kerioundelete from there16:12
ensoekerio: i'll do i undelete though?16:13
keriotestdisk's photorec maybe16:13
kerio"Important: As soon as a pic or file is accidentally deleted, or you discover any missing, do NOT save any more pics or files to that memory device or hard disk drive; otherwise you may overwrite your lost data."16:14
keriowhat do you want to recover?16:14
kerioalso, didn't you say you have a backupmenu backup?16:14
RiDhis pr9n collection16:15
jacekowskiundelete on fat is pretty easy16:15
jacekowskifiles are not deleted on fat as such16:15
ensoephotos,videos, contacts, conversations for the most part, all the other crap i can get back again ..mainly stuff that can never be retrieved again unless i have the file16:15
jacekowskijust marked as deleted16:15
ensoekerio: i saved it all to eMMC16:15
keriojacekowski: that's true for Almost Every fs16:15
RiDconversations? that's not on emmc... :/16:15
ensoei knew i should have done that to sdcard16:15
kerioand yeah, conversations is gone16:15
RiDunless you have a backup?16:15
kerioRiD: he had one... on the emmc16:15
jacekowskiconversations are on emmc16:16
jacekowskijust not on mydocs16:16
keriojacekowski: in mydocs?16:16
ensoeso use photorec correct?16:16
kerioext...3? undelete is kinda harder16:16
kerioensoe: hell, you should probably make an image of the mydocs partition16:16
RiDoh, if the backup can still be recovered then your conversations are there16:16
RiDunless if you didn't select to back that up16:16
kerioi still don't get what people mean by "backup"16:16
keriothe backup application?16:17
ensoekerio: well i went through the backup menu options - did both rootfs and the other part (as recommended)16:17
keriooh you used backupmenu16:17
kerio(say that, otherwise people could be confused with the internal "Backup" application)16:17
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kerioensoe: *right now* connect in mass storage and use dd to make a full image of MyDocs16:18
kerioif you manage to recover your backupmenu backup then you're saved16:18
ensoeso don't mount it and just dd full partition over16:19
keriothe more you use the partition, the less chances you have of recovering your files16:19
kerioi wonder... are backupmenu backups tagged in some way?16:19
ensoei havne't done anything yet, mainly just set region, i'm at the main screen after it's done setting the basic things on my n90016:19
ensoewhat's a good dd command (with parameters etc)16:20
kerioi assume you have a unixy OS on the host16:21
ensoekerio: yep, i've got it now. it's working on the dd16:21
qwazixsomething special I have to do to upload via scp to extras? I've got upload rights, updated garage profile with my public keys but I keep getting rejected16:21
keriodd if=/dev/yourpartitiondevice of=mydumbimage.img bs=1m16:21
ensoekerio: if I get to get my files back, I'mma buy you a 24 pack of beer today!16:21
keriothe default block size sucks16:21
kerioensoe: if you get your files back, make a donation to robbiethe1st16:22
kerio(for backupmenu)16:22
kerioi don't even drink16:22
RiDops, wrong channel16:22
ensoei definitely will do. so should i cancel with default block size now and go with the 1m?16:22
ensoeor just let it do it's thing?16:22
kerionah, the default block size is ridiculous16:22
kerio512 bytes16:22
kerioyou'll never get to the end, really16:23
kerio(you can SIGINFO or SIGUSR1 your dd process to make it output stats to stderr, check your man page for details)16:23
qwazixnvm, I got it. Deleted the space between key type and key and added it again... Probably it was another type of html char or something16:24
ensoei guess dd=if of= bs=1024 should work eh?16:24
ensoeit takes it as bytes i think? i should really do 1024*1024 ?16:24
kerioensoe: 1m should work, or 1M16:25
ensoenvm, 1M16:25
ensoeyeah 1k, 1M, etc..16:25
ensoenow i just tried photorec, but it's not giving me much i'll try with the iso from dd16:26
ensoewhen it's done16:26
ensoei wish i had just waited with the whole flashing, was doing it late night too, but asked and I suppose everyone was sleeping..damnit16:27
kerioensoe: backups are only as good as their storage and their restore procedure16:27
ensoekerio: yeah, i realize that. it just never occurred to me in a million years that everything that can go bad, goes bad in one night16:28
ensoeon the phone for 3+ hours, battery running out, phone already hot, I plug in usb cable to recharge, phone still dies, loop mode, i panic, flash wrong..and voila16:28
keriothe only minor fuckup i had was restoring a BM backup with the wrong kernel16:29
ensoeyeah, at this point i don't even care about the conversations, as long as i can get my hands on that last backup - from like 3-4 days ago really16:29
kerioensoe: don't expect to actually recover it16:30
keriothe chances are slim16:30
ensoekerio: can you give me run down as to what to do next once i've got the dd iso ?16:30
ensoeloop mount it, use photorec on it and see if it can find anything i assume?16:31
kerioi don't know if photorec needs a mounted system16:31
kerioanyway, that's the idea16:31
ensoeshould i backup the iso someplace else in case it gets "modified" in any way?16:31
keriosure, why not16:31
ensoewell i'll be here, just going to be running some chores outside - i'll keep you updated or most likely ask for more advise the way i see it16:33
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keriohrmpf why does fapman feel the need to keep his own dpkg database16:46
keriomeh, DocScrutinizer was right all along16:48
kerioDocScrutinizer51: I WILL NEVER DOUBT YOU DOCKY16:49
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: pong17:49
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kerioensoe: ping17:52
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, which jack is used on n900 left or right?
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DocScrutinizer05left is brainfucked apple patent18:01
Paliok, thanks. n950 is also right?18:01
keriohm, somebody here mentioned a french server hosting, some days ago18:02
keriowith insane specs18:02
user___what is right??18:04
user___what has insane specs??18:04
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keriolots of ram, lots of disk space, 18€/month18:06
Lava_CroftDocScrutinizer05: apple headphones are wtf18:06
RiDi had one of these (didn't buy)18:07
RiDcheapest thing you could find. It didn't even had the bass right - it would distort always a bit. this on an apple ipod18:08
RiDAnd it lacked mids as hell. Not sure if they're still like that18:08
RiDit was just some treble. As bad as those cheap laptop speakers18:08
Estel_freemangordon, but whole system RAM usage is kinda useless, unless it's N900 just reflashed and with thumb things installed18:10
Estel_for example, every person will have different widgets installed, so overall system usage will wary easily ~20 MB18:10
Estel_jsut because stupid or less stupid widgets18:10
Estel_it kinda defeat purpose of "system" test18:10
Estel_BTW, why can't we just get list of thumb2-compiled packages from thumb repo, and purpose their footprint in memory when working, one by one?18:11
vi_Estel_: you can.18:11
Estel_ShadowJK, assumes 132 mOhm resistance between charger and battery. where this number come from? Pure guessworking, or someone tested it?18:12
Estel_Am I wrong, that thing like connection quality between springs in battery and socket in N900 can affect this by orders of magnitude?18:12
Estel_erm, so when it becomes 232 mOhm, for example, due to worse springs, our measurement are off by 50%? 0_o?18:13
DocScrutinizer05that's why I never thought this is a useful fancy to calculate things this way18:13
Estel_any other way to do it?18:13
Estel_vi_, sure, but freemangordon requested whole system usage18:14
teotwakismoking an electronic cigarette18:14
teotwakiinteresting stuff18:14
DocScrutinizer05take raw values from and the rest is just left to user guessing18:14
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Estel_teotwaki, sure, but it damages itself 70% chance in 3 months18:14
jonwilhmmm, tommorow I might finally be able to work on some N900 coding :)18:14
jonwilspecifically wl1251-cal and bluetooth-cal18:14
vi_teotwaki: gets you held up at gunpoint by the olympic terror squad.18:14
Estel_at least ones with under-pressure ON switch (when you pull air, it's activate)18:14
teotwakiEstel_: not an issue, even if I have to buy a new set every 2 months, it's a lot cheaper than regular fags18:15
teotwakivi_: how so?18:15
vi_jonwil: w00t18:15
vi_teotwaki: did you not see the news story some weeks ago?18:15
Estel_teotwaki, sure. And it's definitelly friendly for non-smoking surrounding18:15
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jonwilalthough that depends on whether I use "working on n900 stuff" as an excuse to procrastinate regarding cleaning up all the mess in my apartment :)18:15
vi_a man in the UK was using one on a bus.18:15
teotwakiand hopefully safer, health-wise.18:16
teotwakivi_: nope18:16
Estel_vi_, haha, remember that18:16
vi_some people became suspicious.18:16
teotwakisuspicious of what?18:16
Estel_Well, antiterrorist banged at him, bus eas stopped, 25 kilometer line of cars started18:16
infobotEstel_ meant: Well, antiterrorist banged at him, bus eas stopped, 25 kilometer line of cars appeared18:16
Estel_chemical terrorism squad arrived18:16
vi_next thing you know they are being held at gunpoint by the bombsquad for 6 hours at the side of the road.18:16
Estel_teotwaki, suspicious that he is mixing components of chemical weapon18:17
Estel_due to "smoke" (water)18:17
Estel_not exactly, they were afraid18:17
vi_teotwaki: BOOOOOOMB!!!!18:17
Estel_probably, he refilled it with nicotine liquid18:17
Estel_so paranoid started that he is mixing chemical weapon18:17
teotwakioh lol18:17
Lava_Croftwhere there is smoke, there is fire18:17
Estel_then he started to use it and "smoke" appeared...18:17
Lava_Croftfire is used by terrorists18:17
Lava_Croftcase closed18:17
keriodon't they, like, LOOK like cigarettes too?18:18
Estel_kerio, sure18:18
Estel_but terorist can disguise bombs as cigarretes!18:18
vi_kerio: nice try, terrorist.18:18
Lava_Croftthey were a hype over here for about 2 months18:18
Estel_or as milk for infants18:18
Lava_Croftbut electric cigs are like non-alcoholic beer18:18
Lava_Croftin the end, you just aint going to do it18:18
vi_Lava_Croft: not really.18:19
Estel_I must say UK is an idiot when it comes to security - remember, when parents were supposed to drink a little from bootle of milk for infants, before boarding plane?18:19
Estel_sure, suicude terrorist wouldn't take a small bit of chemical liquid, to prove that it's milk18:19
Estel_they care about their health, after all18:19
teotwakiLava_Croft: well, 3 guys at my office have been smoking exclusively that for over 5 months18:19
teotwakiLava_Croft: I started tuesday18:19
vi_Estel_: but what if it is like you know...boob milk?18:19
Estel_vi_, well, that's why no security drinked it18:20
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: most nitro-explosives are extremely toxic18:20
teotwakithey'd have you puking in seconds18:20
Estel_DocScrutinizer, sure, but to bring plane down, you don't need nitro18:20
Estel_in fact, simple depressurization via a small hole is enough, on high attitudes18:20
DocScrutinizer05dunno about APEX18:21
teotwakiit's not, actually.18:21
vi_e-cigs relieve nicotine withdrawals just like cigs.18:21
Estel_teotwaki, 10x10 cm hole in hull, where it can't be auto-closed, on 10 000m is enough to rip it in 20 seconds18:21
DocScrutinizer05but apex would explode when you swallow it X-P18:21
teotwakiEstel_: rip what, exactly?18:22
DocScrutinizer05due to friction18:22
Estel_teotwaki, due to pressure difference, 10x10 cm hole will rip itself to much bigger in 5 seconds, You know the rest18:22
teotwakiit wouldn't18:22
Estel_In passenger plane? It would.18:22
vi_teotwaki: e-cigs are expensive.  A cheaper more readily available form of nicotine is purchaseable in the form of cigarettes18:22
teotwakiyou're not travelling at -2000m18:22
teotwakivi_: e-cigs are cheaper than cigs18:23
Estel_teotwaki, sure, intercontinentals are travelling at 10 000 m ;)18:23
teotwakivi_: e-cigs will cost me 1600 euros less a year than normal cigs18:23
jonwilAloha Airlines Flight 243 would serve as a counter to the argument that a small hole in an airplane is automatically fatal18:23
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: ++18:24
Estel_jonwil, sure, it depends on attitude18:24
teotwakiEstel_: 10km? Seriously?18:24
DocScrutinizer05teotwaki: more like 11km18:24
teotwakiwell, 12 even18:25
teotwakiI'm just saying, pressurization of the cabin is only done for human comfort18:25
DocScrutinizer05and several experiments shown that a small bomb is not instantly teearing apart a plane18:26
teotwakiWhat movie is it, alien? Where the alien gets sucked through a tiny little hole in a piece of glass?18:26
DocScrutinizer05to "bring down a airplane" it's sufficient to go "*cough*allah*coughcough*bomb*cough*"18:27
teotwakiSo the alien got ripped to shreds thanks to 1 atmosphere worth of pressure...18:27
teotwakiGod forbid it ever came to earth.18:28
RiDextraterrestial beings18:28
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teotwakinext we're going to hear about people's heads popping when they get in a 0 gravity environment18:28
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DocScrutinizer05I don't need any special environment for that - feels like mine going 'plopp' in a second18:29
teotwakithat's because you forgot to go to the loo earlier18:30
RiDyou know what also does 'plopp'?18:30
DocScrutinizer05probably because I thought it's a good idea to close windows in the morning, when it been 25°C outside and inside. when I woke up 1h ago, it still had 25° outside but 29° inside :-o18:31
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, is there some detailed n900 hw spec (I found only L1L2, L3L3 & pdf hw spec)18:32
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Palisomething more detailed18:33
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders about AirCon and about servo motors to open/close windows18:33
DocScrutinizer05Pali: spec like what?18:33
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Palifull spec of all chips...18:34
DocScrutinizer05component names?18:34
Paliok on maemo wiki Category:N900_Hardware is some info18:35
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PaliI tried to find some more info about twl madc which is on n90018:36
Paliwhat is where connected18:36
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PaliDocScrutinizer, only adcin0, adcin2 and adcin4 is written in Nokia_N900_RX-51_Schematics.pdf18:37
DocScrutinizer05Pali: that kind of info you get from schematics18:37
Paliin Schematics is more adcin* missing18:38
DocScrutinizer05Pali: not all ADCINn are used, and several are internally connected18:38
DocScrutinizer05Pali: what's *really* missing in schematics are details about JTAG18:39
DocScrutinizer05UART3 etc18:39
Paliyes, it really missing18:39
DocScrutinizer05all the testpads under battery18:39
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Paliit was not released or nokia do not have it?18:40
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: my understanding is: the 'leaked' schematics are "for educational purpose". Nokia edited them to remove some stuff they didn't think was relevant to 'educate'18:41
Estel_<Estel_> Pali, ping18:41
Estel_<Estel_> Pali, could I request some small thing for KP charging modules? my early (few weeks) testes show, that charging bigger batteries with 1250 charging current works well. Could it be possible, to have charging current adjustable, even if by some geeky sysfs entry?18:41
Estel_<Estel_> (like with disabling red led for camera)18:41
Estel_oh damn18:41
Estel_connection dropped18:41
Estel_<Estel_> DocScrutinizer, any idea, why when executing one need to ctrl^c it and do it again...18:42
Estel_<Estel_> due to "charging error"?18:42
Estel_<Estel_> coming from Maemo?18:42
Estel_<Estel_> I used to *not* being affected by this, but since few weeks, I always must do it twice, or it doesn't charge. Afterwards, it works great18:42
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: Pali: you should re-read my bq24150 API specs18:42
PaliEstel_, already implemented via /sys/class/power_supply/bq2415**/<entry>18:43
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Estel_<teotwaki> Estel_: 10km? Seriously?18:44
Estel_<Estel_> teotwaki, at least when I've last travelled intercont.18:44
Estel_<Estel_> we joked that we're almsot astronauts18:44
Estel_<Estel_> almost*18:44
Estel_<Estel_> (only 90km left to be real astronauts :P )18:44
Estel_<Estel_> but, anyway, this thing with nitro and puking makes it a little more justified (drinking milk)18:44
Estel_<Estel_> I still insist, that there is 343543534 combinations of explosive liquid, that doesn't necessary required spazms when drinked, at least not instantly...18:44
Estel_<Estel_> but whatever, security uber allez18:44
Estel_<Estel_> I'm absolutely sure, that denial of bringing liquids on board have, hoever, served onboards "bar" very well18:44
Estel_<Estel_> 200 ml bootle of mineral water for 5 pounds is something18:44
Estel_Pali, oh, sorry and thanks :)18:44
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Estel_is it documented somewhere?18:44
PaliEstel_, charging led can be disabled too18:44
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: stop spamming!18:44
Estel_DocScrutinizer, just pasted what was dropped out due to connection drop :)18:44
Estel_would it be better if I re-write it line by line, eh?18:45
FIQ|n900Estel_: oh god18:45
Estel_Pali, nice. I would liek to read mroe about it (i.e what and where is configurable, what values are correct and correspond to what results), thus question about documentation18:45
FIQ|n900ever heard of pastebins?18:45
Estel_FIQ, without connection drop, IKRC would anyway present is as line by line...18:46
FIQ|n900it's frowned upon in IRC to paste more than 3 lines a row18:46
PaliEstel_, no documentation yet (some old has DocScrutinizer05), but you can see current sysfs entires in source code:;a=blob;f=kernel-power-2.6.28/debian/patches/bq2415x_charger.patch;hb=HEAD#l131918:46
Estel_that's why we're doing it all the time, but I'm not going to argue :)18:46
Estel_Pali, thanks a lot18:46
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DocScrutinizer05Estel_: original idea can be found in
* Estel_ say thanks18:50
DocScrutinizer05I dunno how closely Pali followed on it18:50
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Estel_ShadowJK, I can't seem to find any mention of this 132 mOhm resistance between charger and battery in, may it be why result (Rate) is ~100 mA off from what reports?19:01
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, left is used also on Lumia...
DocScrutinizer05strongest evidence how much Flop assraped Nokia on all aspects19:19
DocScrutinizer05also another reason why Apple should die19:20
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SpeedEvilNew android tablet.19:22
DocScrutinizer05I mean, putting the most delicate sensible line (mic(!) input) on the sleeve(!)-ring of connector, a design that inevitably explodes right into your face when using decent plugs with metal housing. *I*N*S*A*N*E*19:22
SpeedEvilI'm currently being really annoyed by the media daemon constantly indexing and draining my battery.19:22
DocScrutinizer05LOL, the return of killer tracker19:23
SpeedEvilAnd this time there is no tracker config file.19:23
DocScrutinizer05sounds like a lame movie sequel19:23
DocScrutinizer05(mic on sleeve) and I really feel deeply depressed for Nikolaus of Goldelico adopted that very brainfuck for GTA0419:25
DocScrutinizer05 (<- this is a sane design). <- this is FSCKUP apple-must-die-for-this design, that breaks with plugs like the gold plated one in
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: ^^^19:39
DocScrutinizer05Nokia once stated that ALL their devices will follow this spec19:39
DocScrutinizer05until Flop came and shot in their forehead19:40
DocScrutinizer05of course "1.2 Business Rationale" as in that paper doesn't apply to Apple, rather the contrary19:41
Venemo_N9anyone with an N900 around?19:41
Venemo_N9I'm looking for an app tester who would test something on an N90019:42
PaliDocScrutinizer05, ok19:42
Gh0styVenemo_N9: what app?19:42
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Gh0styand how badly will it trash the n900? :p19:43
Venemo_N9Gh0sty, puzzle master 2's fremantle backport19:43
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DocScrutinizer05oooooh puzzle master19:48
DocScrutinizer05Gh0sty: you should give this one a try19:48
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Venemo_N9thx DocScrutinizer05 :)19:50
Lava_Crofti wonder if anybody ever ported OpenGlad19:50
Venemo_N9obviously the multitouch features don't work on the N900, but the rest works very fine on Maemo 519:51
* Lava_Croft winks suggestively19:51
Gh0stypuzzle master19:51
Gh0stywtf? :p19:51
Venemo_N9Lava_Croft, what's that?19:52
Gh0styi guess he/she wants it! :p19:52
Venemo_N9Gh0sty, I can give you a deb or you can compile for yourself if you prefer19:53
Gh0stypff not really interested19:53
Gh0stynever game on it :p19:53
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Venemo_N9well then, I'm still looking for a tester19:54
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DocScrutinizer05Venemo_N9: asking for users to ask for a 'sekrit' download link to give sth a test - this never has panned out19:54
RST38hSooo, what is new and exciting?19:55
Venemo_N9DocScrutinizer05, what do you recommend?19:55
RST38hAre we dead yet?19:55
DocScrutinizer05post a URL pointing to .deb here19:55
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Venemo_N9DocScrutinizer05, all right, as soon as I get home19:56
DocScrutinizer05sorry if I sound grumpy, got headache19:56
* DocScrutinizer05 afk19:56
Gh0styyou need a headache to sound grumpy? :p19:58
Venemo_N9no problem19:58
RiDGh0sty: LOL19:58
Venemo_N9anyway, ttyl19:59
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ShadowJKEstel_; it only matters for the sys/ch estimates20:01
Estel_wait, I think I still don't get something. "Charge" is always 1250 for me, static, it doesn't change in any conditijons20:02
Estel_"Rate" ios thing that should be same as current in, yes?20:02
Estel_and "system" is estimate20:02
Estel_now, i updated to have 21 mOhm value for sense chip resistance, yet, "Rate" is still *much* off from what reports20:03
Estel_and, mind You, results seems more like real-life ones20:03
ShadowJKthat's weird..20:03
Estel_can't find out why it's like that20:04
Estel_have you tried running it in your device? results are same?20:04
DocScrutinizer05the root of doom and epic failure:
Estel_(with 950 mAh charging)20:04
DocScrutinizer05>>When charging is needed from anything other than the stock base, ground pin 3 and apply Vcc to pins 1, 2, and 4.<<20:04
DocScrutinizer05:-O  EEEEK! WAAAAAH!!!!20:04
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ShadowJKatleast on my system and seem to show same rate when not charging20:05
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Estel_and while charging?20:05
* Estel_ checks how it is while not charging20:05
DocScrutinizer05 <-nice one20:08
* SpeedEvil wises he could find the nexus pogo pin pinouts.20:12
SpeedEvilI'm sort of tempted to open it up, pop the cans off, and see what I can measure20:12
Estel_oh, god, i though only apple is so stupid20:12
Estel_ShadowJK, when idle, it seems to be almsot the same20:12
Gh0stystupidity is everywhere20:13
Gh0styits all around us !20:13
Estel_ionteresting fact - whith only and screen on, power usage is ~100 mA, when 5 is added, it increase to ~110 mA20:13
ShadowJKshould be indentical, though ./bq27200 5 has 5s refresh and defaults to 5 at startup, 5 during charge, and 15 after charge20:13
Estel_yea, additional 10mA is jsutified by 3x more often refresh20:14
Estel_it can be considered identical20:14
Estel_while not charging20:14
Estel_but when I connect charger...20:14
Estel_...nothing happens, as I need to restart :P20:15
Estel_hm, why? It doesn't aujtodetect charger connections,a nd never did?20:16
Estel_(on 3 devices I have tested it on)20:16
Estel_i.e. if You charge with it, unplug cable, it goes into "standby" mode. Then, conencting charger again, doesn't result in anything, need to ctrl^c it and start again20:17
Estel_hm, charging current is now capped to 712, and mysteriously, now readings of both and are same20:18
Estel_and by identical I mean completely identical20:19
Estel_it seems to freak out only in higher currents20:19
Estel_considering this, "System" is also accurate now20:19
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ShadowJK  has some timestamps too. I plug in charger between 35 and 50s.20:23
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Estel_ShadowJK, thanks. Very strange, autodetecting charger being plugged in *never* worked for me on any device20:29
Estel_also, there is additional thing, that seems to affect more people to - initially, when IU stgart, it starts charging, then, Maemos banner "charging error" appear, and it's stop charging, actually20:30
Estel_I need to ctrl^c it, start again, and then it charges OK for time being20:30
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Estel_oddly enough, if I stop charging, and start it again in short timeframe, this thing doesn't re-appear20:31
Estel_it appear only, when charging initially, with long time since last charging attempt20:31
Estel_mind You, I plug cable first (so bme starts charging),. then start, may it be related?20:31
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ShadowJKif maemo banner comes up, it suggests you're running bme too20:32
* Estel_ nods20:32
ShadowJKbme would shut down charger chip20:32 part that stops bme is commented out in by default20:32
Estel_yes, but after ctrl^c and starting again, it doesn't shut it down20:33
ShadowJKI keep charger on20:33
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Estel_may it be why auto-detection of charger plugged in doesn't work?20:33
ShadowJKSo if running bme simultaneously with charge21, I would expect charge to not resume again20:33
Estel_but You know what? Now I re-did Your tets with putting charger more than 30 seconds after starting
Estel_with bme running...20:34
Estel_and it *does* detect charger plugged in, and started charging20:34
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Estel_it seems that it need to be run for some time20:34
ShadowJKuntil next update20:34
ShadowJKwhich is like 15s20:34
Estel_lets see what happen if I unplug and plug back again20:34
Estel_it's charging without problem20:34
Estel_for 6 updates already20:35
Estel_without disabling bme20:35
Estel_wtf? :)20:35
DocScrutinizer05running bme in parallel to charger*.sh is insane BS20:35
Estel_bme shutting down chip happens only initially20:35
ShadowJKHaving bme running at same time is silly anyway, bme will/might/could override 1250 or anything20:35
ShadowJKyeah what DocScrutinizer said :P20:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer, sure, I don't need bme for that, but nevertheless, fact is that it worked for me for year or so ;)20:35
Estel_this may be reason why device doesn't want to charge with full current20:36
Estel_so I need to get stressed again and re-test it properly with bme shut down, for another month, eh? ;)20:36
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ShadowJKsure :)20:36
Estel_stressed as in "if Nokia put good components to accomodate charging chip, that won't desolder themselves on 1250"20:37
ShadowJKAlso as you can see from my paste, I was at 75% charged approx, and charge rate was below 950 already20:37
Estel_same here20:37
Estel_testing 1250 must wait for next charging cycle20:37
DocScrutinizer05it's like pulling the horses of a carriage with a ferrari20:38
Estel_why so, you've said that there is no way to screw anything with charging via software ;)20:39
DocScrutinizer05there isn't20:39
Estel_but seriously, I just want to check if component there is high quality, and won't come into saturation20:39
Estel_= if there is possibility for little time gain, when charging big batteries like 3000 mah with 1250 instead of 95020:39
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless using on a system with active BME is about silliest thing I could think of20:40
Estel_(with much regret, that it doesn't allow charging with more)20:40
Estel_ah, of course20:40
Estel_I stopped bme ;)20:40
Estel_I though You're talking about whole concept of 1250 charging20:40
Estel_wioth that horses and carriage20:40
Estel_well, need to disassemble unit again, and put temperature sensor on this small black thing near charging chip again20:41
Estel_how was it called? choke?20:41
Estel_ShadowJK, any reason why to have stopping bme commented out in
Estel_(and starting it back again on exit)20:41
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DocScrutinizer05nfc, probably because you never have started bme on a system where you want to use charge.sh20:43
DocScrutinizer05mind you, is _alternative_ to bme20:43
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Estel_but lets be practical, until we have replacement implemented - like now and all years before - we use bme normally, and want to sue for charging20:44
infobotEstel_ meant: but lets be practical, until we have replacement implemented - like now and all years before - we use bme normally, and want to use for charging20:44
DocScrutinizer05so rather than stopping bme in, you _start_ in initscripts where usually bme gets started20:44
Estel_also, have code to stop bme, but commented out by default, I wonder why20:44
ShadowJKEstel_; probaby a remnant from the original, where script exited at full charge and restarted bme20:45
Estel_ShadowJK, I see20:45
DocScrutinizer05wtf would you need bme for DIScharging?20:45
ShadowJKTo restart battery meter and low batt dong20:46 is meant to run on a bme-free system20:46
DocScrutinizer05actually it got invented to allow charging of systems that got bme removed20:47
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DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: sure, fair enough20:47
Estel_DocScrutinizer, this, + charging from PC20:48 is going to make USB on Pc berseker at best, or blow it's fuse at worst, depending on motherboard20:48
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: you *could* augment your charger script to try and stop bme, and only start it on exit when it been running on entry20:48
ShadowJKwell my script now never exits20:49
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DocScrutinizer05I had some concept for that in booston20:49
Estel_ShadowJK, It do, when I invoke ctrl^c ;)20:49
ShadowJKshould probably add a warning and/or exit at start20:49
Estel_it coulkd restart bme then20:49
DocScrutinizer05dunno if I commented it out, or never finished it20:49
ShadowJKI have too many versions around, one version on each n900, one on enivax, one on pc, and then meegocharge version and...20:50
Estel_DocScrutinizer, you know that I would love to run bme free system, and this time is going closer and closer thanks to kernel implementation... :)20:50
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: nah! `stop bme` will throw error on bme not running, no?20:50
Estel_but for now, it needs to co-exist (not njecessary at exact same time)20:50
Estel_sorry for typos, writing from small keyboard20:51
ShadowJKI should make a "psleep" command that looks at sysnodes to catch charger (un)plug events immediately20:51
ShadowJKbut that requires working sb or something so meh20:51
DocScrutinizer05ok, no return code, but20:51
DocScrutinizer05t900:/sys/class# stop bme20:51
DocScrutinizer05stop: Job not changed: bme20:51
DocScrutinizer05on STDERR20:52
* ShadowJK has spare n900 Streaming audio over 3g, screen max brightness, and gps recorder keeping screen on.. should have empty battery for testing soon! :-)20:52
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, see this:20:54
Estel_Estel, this is same implementation of usb host mode as in hen. Only battery charging & boost is implemented in kernel and musb export speed of connected usb device to sysfs.20:54
Estel_so it indeed detects speed via guessworking on turning it on and off?20:54
Estel_I wonder if it could be made faster via database of PID&ID's, with corresponding speed attached20:55
Estel_then it would require only one ON and, in some situations, OFF and ON again on correct speed20:55
Estel_PID&VId even20:56
DocScrutinizer05stop bme 2>&1|grep -q "Job not changed" && echo "bme not running!" && restartbme=false20:56
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: vendor/device-id only via ENUM. ENUM only after proper speed setting20:58
Estel_but some devices works both in high-speed and full-speed20:58
ShadowJKtime to fetch food20:59
Estel_user could set them in database to start on high-speed only (or full-speed, if desired to)20:59
DocScrutinizer05we don't ENUM on a device that already signalled different speed than we used20:59
Estel_DocScrutinizer, as for stop bme, will it work on devices with system language changed?20:59
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DocScrutinizer05to make sure you can prepend "LANG=C"21:00
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DocScrutinizer05LANG=C stop bme 2>&1|grep -q "Job not changed" && echo "bme not running!" && restartbme=false21:01
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DocScrutinizer05Estel_: good point nevertheless21:02
DocScrutinizer05actually you *always* should do LANG=C prior to parsing any stdout/stderr in a script21:03
DocScrutinizer05t900:/sys/class# echo $LANG21:05
DocScrutinizer05t900:/sys/class# start bme21:05
DocScrutinizer05start: Job not changed: bme21:05
* Estel_ nods21:06
DocScrutinizer05after all eventually start (aka initctl) might change to obey LANG/LOCALE setting21:08
DocScrutinizer05(of course it might also change the STDERR msg any time, since that's not a specified property of the program)21:09
DocScrutinizer05so a really decent design would do `start bme` twice, store output of second invocation to the grep pattern to use later on21:11
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DocScrutinizer05but that obviously would defeat the purpose of learning whether bme been started or not, first instance21:11
DocScrutinizer05could be done in postinstall21:12
DocScrutinizer05and then we'd also need a hook to initctl to rerun that charge.sh_postinstall whenever initctl gets updated or re-installed21:13
keriopali's script checks for /etc/bme-disabled21:13
kerioit sounds easier21:13
DocScrutinizer05well, iirc my script checks for environment var RESTART-BME, but either way somebody has to set it accordingly21:14
kerioyeah but pali's future rx51-bme-replacement package will touch that file21:14
DocScrutinizer05no program should set this type of temporary 'var' in /etc21:15
DocScrutinizer05there's /var for that21:15
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Estel_well, write about it to Pali, then :)21:15
Estel_BTw I wonder if Pali's kernel charging thing acts nicely with charging from PC21:16
Estel_it could be achieved easily, just cap max charging current to less than 500 mA21:16
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DocScrutinizer05btw pali's kernel charging thing is mutually exclusive to ;-P21:16
DocScrutinizer05like bme is21:17
Estel_I know21:17
Estel_Which doesn't mean You can't use with it :D21:17
Estel_as for now, it requires modprobing21:17
Estel_of course, after 100% replacing bme, no real need for doing that21:17
DocScrutinizer05yes, it means exactly that: you can't use when that kernel bme replacement got loaded and active21:17
Estel_"you cant" as in "it's silly do so, like with bme and" or "you can't cause it wil leat Your brain"?21:18
DocScrutinizer05it probably won't work21:19
Estel_same thoughts here, as it using similar method21:19
DocScrutinizer05and it's for sure an absolutely silly thing to do, like running and bme concurrently21:19
Estel_BTW, what IMIN stands for, in context of charging?21:19
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Estel_I understood it as "charging current has been capped, as charging approach toward end"21:20
DocScrutinizer05minimum Current21:20
Estel_but this flag never turns to 1 in my case, despite charging working correctly21:20
Estel_i.e. never reports imin at 1, even if I'm 30 seconds from charging end21:20
DocScrutinizer05that's caused by system eating too much power for the threshold you've set21:20
Estel_current is capped properly, just IMIN appear to be 021:21
Estel_I've set 100 mA threeshold and my idle system eats max 10 mA21:21
Estel_(100 mA, due to 2 cells)21:21
Estel_(in fact 100% idle eats 3-4 mA, with gsm/wifi it's 8mA)21:21
Estel_(with screen off, obviously)21:21
DocScrutinizer05100mA is completely ok'ish for charge_termination_threshold, due to system usually eating more than 40mA21:22
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DocScrutinizer05with some kernels, the musb-core stays active and cpu locked to 500MHz when anything plugged to USB, which will make the system eat sth like 80mA minimum21:23
Estel_DocScrutinizer, sure, with stock kernel21:23
Estel_kernel-power fixed that ages ago21:24
DocScrutinizer05with screen on in fact your charging never has the slightest chance to terminate by hitting threshold21:24
Estel_my mA with screen on, current draw is exactly 100 mA21:24
Estel_(fluctuates between 99 and 103 mA)21:24
Estel_(with GSM on)21:24
DocScrutinizer05but for a last safety measure there's some timeout in charging that kicks in after 3 or some hours21:24
Estel_sounds sane21:24
DocScrutinizer05read bq24150 datasheet for exact time value of that 'watchdog'21:25
DocScrutinizer05probably bme will kill that safety watchdog function as well21:26
DocScrutinizer05since bme is so retarded it thinks it knows everything better than anybody else21:26
DocScrutinizer05but maybe I should just STFU and enjoy my migraine. Seems it throttles my wetware to an unbearably reduced performance21:28
DocScrutinizer05I'm starting to think I maybe just made up that whole charge termination timer thing21:29
DocScrutinizer05anyway the rationale of charging never terminating with screen on (plus the idea that even LEDs might age and wear out) recently made me disable "keep screen backlight on while charging" setting21:31
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ShadowJKYeah I also think you made it up :P21:48
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: (my mA with screen on, current draw is exactly 100 mA) until you switch on light in that room21:48
DocScrutinizer05...or close the curtains21:49
Estel_DocScrutinizer, no, I just use relatively low ammount of backlight (3/5)21:50
Estel_and condolences about migraine21:50
Estel_it's really nasty thing to experience21:50
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: how is that justifying a "no, ..." at beginning of your sentence?21:51
Estel_I'm free from all such thing, and even "light" headache is very irritating, so...21:51
Estel_<DocScrutinizer05> Estel_: (my mA with screen on, current draw is exactly 100 mA) until you switch on light in that room21:51
Estel_"no" as in "no", light was on in this room21:51
Estel_and ambient sensor reported "Light"21:51
Estel_my system is quite power-saving :)21:52
Estel_one warning - don't touch screen, doing so results in power usage jumping higher by 40 mA ;)21:52
DocScrutinizer05my point however been you never shall assume any particular power consumption of backlight, unless it's set to either absolute max or real 021:52
DocScrutinizer05(power usage on touching screen) sounds correct, touching screen activates X/Y evaluation of touchpoint which in turn means you enable current flow across the resistive planes in touchpanel21:55
DocScrutinizer05those are like a few 100 Ohms and voltage is several Volt21:55
Estel_DocScrutinizer, sure, + wakes CPU21:55
DocScrutinizer05yep, that too21:55
Estel_(more than refreshing screen itself)21:55
Estel_and as for current of backlight, sure, I'm aware of that. some people disable ambient light sensing > screen brightness, but I like this feature21:56
DocScrutinizer05btw that's why you got a hw switch/button to unlock screen21:56
Estel_...which I love.21:57
Estel_And hate, that on N950,. they did literally 3 buttons on whole device (exluding keyboard)21:57
Estel_volume +, -, and "multi-purpose"21:57
Estel_DocScrutinizer, btw, have You noticed that after PR 1.2, N950 doesn't indicate charging by it's white led? Or is it just me?21:58
Estel_before upgrade (with developer version of software that was pre-installed) it was "breathing" similarly to n90021:58
DocScrutinizer05no, I didn't notice since I refuse to update ;-)21:58
Estel_why so?21:59
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Estel_sure, but beta2 is bugged as hell21:59
DocScrutinizer05I don't care21:59
Estel_BTW someone need nice kick in balls for those "file itnegrity checks"21:59
DocScrutinizer05probably my N950 is the only device on this planet that still has original PR22:00
Estel_well, you framed N950 and put it on the wall? :)22:00
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Estel_want to sell it for 2 millions after 20 years, eh, for collectors?22:00
DocScrutinizer05in 6 months, yeah22:00
Estel_I doubt that PR will matter much, it's about hardware ;)22:00
Estel_no, in 6 months it will be still no more than 1000 pounds22:01
Estel_twisted plan - prepare some miracle app for N950 that does many nice things... And have, well obfuscated, malicious code that destroyes hardware on set date22:02
Estel_then profit from having one of few remaining ones22:02
Estel_oho, it seems, that DocScrutinizer went for some coding ;)22:03
DocScrutinizer05on N950 that seems simple enough to implement, thanks to all that MSSF/Aegis crap22:04
DocScrutinizer05actually thanks to full fledged TrustZone implementation22:05
DocScrutinizer05NOLO will do it for us22:05
DocScrutinizer05(brick the device)22:05
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Estel_brick is too low, we need full hardware burnout ;)22:06
Estel_something via i2c?22:06
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DocScrutinizer05the `touch /var/MALF` exploit to nuke all user data with the help of Aegis that's meant to *protect* user data been published by me ;-)22:07
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, this trustzone implementation that bricks device, is it reversible with USB and flashing?22:08
Estel_and aegis is meant to protect user data only in marketting bullshit22:09
DocScrutinizer05trustzone is the whole hw side of truste computing aka MSSF aka Aegis, in SoC22:09
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Estel_it's flawed attempt to protect IP property of third parties (and fails to do so, too)22:09
Estel_trusted computing is bitch itself enough22:09
Estel_no freaking way to get rid of it on N950 for good, by any means?22:10
Estel_i.e. putting hardware parts responsible for it to sleep?22:10
Estel_eternal one, for example?22:10
DocScrutinizer05means are: get a free NOLO with signature, so it will get started by ROMBL22:10
Estel_god, if Jolla will make anything even slightly ressembling this approach, I'm going to hate them22:11
Estel_so thats why open kernel doesn't fix every problem with aegis?22:11
DocScrutinizer05N900 has 'free' NOLO, HARM devices don't22:11
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ShadowJK13% on spare n90022:12
DocScrutinizer05(open kernel) yes, it already encounters a system where stuff been locked down by NOLO22:12
Estel_and people are still crazy about n9 greatness? seriously?22:12
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: e.g. the CAL partition been locked down so you can't change system lockcode22:13
Estel_ah so, that's why some people prefer inception over open kernel22:14
DocScrutinizer05this lockdown of hardware is part of TrusZone[TM]22:14
Estel_I was wondering what's the all fuss about broken password funcionality22:14
Estel_TrustMyAss[TM] I wonder who got bright idea of incorporating this shit22:14
DocScrutinizer05ARM afaik22:14
Estel_it's obligatory, so even willing to avoid it, nokia couldn't?22:15
DocScrutinizer05the concept of normal/secure duality is in every of ARM's IP blocks afaict22:15
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: when we were discussing kernel ABI compatibility, it was fcam that we didn't know if it works, was it?22:15
Estel_well, good reason to stop using ARM chips22:15
Estel_fcam? It works fine22:15
Estel_IK'm using it every day22:16
freemangordonEstel_: we have ad "deal" with doc22:16
Estel_AFAIK it was about purely "hyphotetical" closed source 3rd party application that might not work22:17
Estel_I know22:17
Estel_remember it ;)22:17
Estel_was here when deal was made22:17
Estel_still, it's kinda hard to fight against hyphotetical, non existing program concept22:17
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: I can't recall. Esp since it's not been me who picked a particular app/.ko. My point always been we don't know how many such custom .ko are out there, so we need a generic solution that is suuposed to work with arbitrary such .ko22:17
freemangordonDocScrutinizer51: :nod:22:17
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: so far it seems all known applications wotk22:18
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freemangordonbecause noone knows anything besides joikushit and fcam22:19
DocScrutinizer05the deal been: demonstrate you new kernel can load arbitrary .ko built for stock kernel22:19
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: are fcam drivers applicable for that?22:20
qwazixfreemangordon, fcam is supposed to work? which version of cssu-thumb?22:20
DocScrutinizer05any arbitrary .ko is applicable for that22:20
freemangordonqwazix: just installed fcam from repos and it works like charm22:21
DocScrutinizer05as long as it's built for stock kernel, not a patched version compiled against your new kernel22:21
freemangordonon my development device, freshly flashed and -thumb installed on top of that22:21
freemangordonqwazix: ^^^22:21
qwazixfreemangordon, doesn't work for me but I still have the initial cssu-thumb. Not sure it's thumb related as neither camera-ui works22:21
freemangordonqwazix: it is not thumb related, see ^^^22:22
DocScrutinizer05basically your new kernel needs to work when flashed to device with stock kernel, even when no kernel-modules are replaced to match your new kernel22:22
DocScrutinizer05that's the deal22:22
qwazixok thanks for the info, will reflash22:22
freemangordonDocScrutinizer51: exactly what I did22:22
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: ^^^22:22
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DocScrutinizer05sound great22:23
freemangordonthis device has never seen any KP on it22:23
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freemangordonnow, I suspect we need a confirmation from another user22:23
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: ^^^ ?22:24
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DocScrutinizer05not today, I'm all but fit for such demanding taks22:24
freemangordonyeah, but maybe tomorrow? :P22:24
DocScrutinizer05but you bet I'll check your 100% ABI compatible kernel thoroughly eventually ;-D22:24
freemangordonyes, that was my idea too. Take one of your spare devices, flash PR1.3 on it, enable -thumb repo (as it is the place where you can get the kernel), upgrade, install fcam22:25
DocScrutinizer05pick one of my "virgin" N900, do flasher --kernel-only -f -F <fmg-kernel.img>22:26
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: you must be kidding22:26
freemangordonwhere are kernel modules?22:26
DocScrutinizer05on device22:26
freemangordoncome on22:27
DocScrutinizer05[2012-07-28 21:22:34] <DocScrutinizer05> basically your new kernel needs to work when flashed to device with stock kernel, even when no kernel-modules are replaced to match your new kernel22:27
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: you are kidding me, right?22:27
freemangordonthe device won;t bott, so skip that22:27
DocScrutinizer05not at all, that's what ABI compatibility means22:27
freemangordonno, it is not22:27
freemangordon.ko is supposed to be loaded in the running kernel, right?22:28
freemangordonwe are talking about any 3rd party .ko22:28
freemangordonkernel modules koming with -omap1 are not third party22:29
freemangordonanyway, I gtg now, will continue tomorrow on that22:30
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Estel_well, it looks like DocScrutinizer mean "every possible .ko", which means, that such ABI compatible kernel would need to be direct copy of stock kernel. Which of course is impossible scenario, so I feel thjat fork is imminent22:32
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ShadowJKit would be nice if atleast package management refused to install such .ko22:32
Estel_ShadowJK, but any 3rd party .ko works. DocScrutinizer demans now compatibility with omap1 kernel modules pre-loaded22:33
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Estel_during boot time22:33
Estel_which is impossible scenario22:33
Estel_You can't flasher --kernel-only -f -F    without modules, and expect it to work22:33
Estel_unless you're flashing same kernel22:34
kerioor an ABI-compatible one22:34
keriothat's the point22:34
Estel_bullshit, kerio22:34
Estel_there is difference between clone and ABI compatibility22:34
kerioi suppose doc can allow you to change the directory name in /lib/modules22:34
DocScrutinizer05[2012-07-28 21:17:41] <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: I can't recall. Esp since it's not been me who picked a particular app/.ko. My point always been we don't know how many such custom .ko are out there, so we need a generic solution that is suuposed to work with arbitrary such .ko22:34
DocScrutinizer05[2012-07-28 21:17:58] <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer51: :nod:22:34
DocScrutinizer05~dict arbitrary22:34
infobotDictionary 'arbitrary' (1 of 4): based on or subject to individual discretion or preference or sometimes impulse or caprice; "an arbitrary decision"; "the arbitrary rule of a dictator"; "an arbitrary penalty"; "of arbitrary size and shape"; "an arbitrary choice"; "arbitrary division of the group into halves" .22:34
Estel_"arbitrary rule of dictator" fits best here22:35
Estel_such requiments is as good as saying "no because no"22:35
DocScrutinizer05that's nonsense22:35
Estel_even goddamnit update to stock kernel would require it's modules22:35
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Estel_in my book, comaptibility with arbitraty .ko is when You can load any 3rd party .ko during runtime22:36
Estel_You know as good as I, that compatibility with omap1 modules required for boot will be never achieved, ans shouldn't22:36
Estel_as it doesn't mirror any real life situation22:36
RiDmirror mirror can you tell22:36
RiDwho is more handsome than me22:37
Estel_kernel-power is ;)22:37
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon agreed to the rationale of a kernel needing ABI compatibilty as long as he thought he can cheat for a particular randomly picked .ko like fcam. True ABI compatibility however means ... well *compatible*, without any preconditions like 23rd party"22:37
ShadowJKEstel_; oh hey I noticed I forgot to change one 950 to 1250, why sys and ch made no sense22:37
kerioDocScrutinizer05: not allowing the kernel's own modules is bullshit, and you know it too22:37
Estel_DocScrutinizer, I would not use word "cheat". It's jsut liek You both see this "deal" as different things. Now when it's fixed, I still think that fork is unavoidable ;)22:38
Estel_ShadowJK, huh?22:38
keriofor instance, there could be the need for a module that loads other modules in a wrapper22:38
Estel_thansk a lot for looking into it. Where to fix it, which line?22:38
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I always told I don't see this ABI compatible kernel ever happening22:38
Estel_the point is that no one ever see need for such interpretation of ABI compatibility22:39
ShadowJKEstel_; in calculate_system_use there are two places with 950, both should be changed to 1250 for charging at 125022:39
Estel_it's rather demanding for sake of demanding22:39
ShadowJKthose two numbers should be same as the configured charge rate22:39
DocScrutinizer05but don't tell me now I would tell BS, when it turns out you made false implicit assumptions about how to achieve ABI compatibility22:39
Estel_DocScrutinizer, I haven't made any assumption, just explaining missunderstanding between You and freemangordon22:40
Estel_it's not my problem (directly), after all22:40
Estel_ShadowJK, my copy have 1250 there?...22:40
Estel_this one, for example? Is it this?22:41
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Estel_It is it*22:41
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DocScrutinizer05after all, if you can't make your "ABI compatibe" kernel work even with known stock .ko, how would you *guarantee* it will work for any random custom .ko you didn't know about right now?22:42
kerioDocScrutinizer05: with that restriction, the only possible things are very minor patches, if anything22:42
ShadowJKalso the if -gt 950 line above22:42
Estel_yea, it's 1250 by default in file You've linked me last time22:42
Estel_Still thanks :)22:43
keriowhich could be fine, i suppose - the thumb2 errata workaround isn't that invasive, after all22:43
Estel_should I upload it for You, to avoid need for rewriting already written thing?22:43
ShadowJKlol nah22:43
ShadowJKi think I'll rebase a new charge22 off of charge3 experimental branch22:44
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: go read some definition of WTF running kernel is, it is not "the stuff flashed on /dev/mtdN"22:44
DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's not completely correct. Any such ABI compatible kernel could still install *additional* .ko, and/or replace one or two or even 5 .ko with bugfixed versions _*as long as the stock kernel would work with those fixed .ko*_ as well22:44
freemangordonthe kernel definition includes .ko files compiled for that kernel22:44
Estel_ShadowJK, nice, whatever it means ;)22:44
freemangordonif you don;t know that, well, go lerna it22:44
freemangordonbb, i am out22:45
ShadowJKEstel_; the differences between "stable" charge2* branch and my private branch are messing with my head22:45
Estel_gentlemans, peace, no need for arguing (Am I saying that?). Fork is always proven way to resolve unresolveable conflicts of dogmatic values ;)22:45
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: so your definition of ABI compatibility is "it's using .ko compiled for that kernel version"? sure!22:46
Estel_ShadowJK, I would gladly be tester of it22:46
* ShadowJK noticed charge21 doesnt blink leds22:46
Estel_unfortunately, it doesn't :D22:46
Estel_is new version using charging pattern from mce?22:47
Estel_sounds nice. I wonder if Pali based kernel implementation in new version22:47
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Estel_or outdated one22:47
ShadowJKi dont think it'd be sane to use either22:48
ShadowJK18% and still charging at 1250-ish22:48
ShadowJKoops now main n900 is out of batt22:49
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keriofreemangordon_: your hostmask is ~freemango@...22:51
Estel_ShadowJK, and it's providing *real* 1250 of power?22:51
kerioi want a free mango22:51
japhestel_, re: {,b}ash: I wholeheartly disagree, now I find it hell trying to adapt to bash and I do think that on the phone a helpful context-aware shell is of even more use than on your real machine.22:51
ShadowJKClose to it, 1100 rate into battery22:51
Estel_japh, but I don't protest against ash :)22:52
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ShadowJK23 percent charge now, and rate is dropping22:52
Estel_ShadowJK, I thinkit will work for me to, it was jsut silly me to use it without stopping bme22:52
Estel_nice. DocScrutinizer, what is normal temeprature of choke accomodating chip?22:53
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Estel_should be similar to one of chip measuring temperature?22:53
ShadowJKHeh, I took out spare wallcharger from box, but the plug was so tight I didn't dare push it in22:53
Estel_ShadowJK, with N950 they did it even worse - plug was so tight that I almsot had to rip it off to take it out22:54
Estel_and push with hammer22:54
Estel_needed quitew a lot of work to make it normal22:54
freemangordon_kerio: that's my n900 connected through my mobile provider ;-)22:54
keriofree mango r don22:54
ShadowJK26%, 1000mA into battery22:54
Estel_ShadowJK, shoudl rate drop so early?22:54
ShadowJKmore or less22:54
ShadowJKIt'd stay higher for longer with a japod22:55
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: sorry, please rephrase22:55
ShadowJKspare n900 has nokia bl-5j22:55
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: try pencil22:55
Estel_DocScrutinizer, I'm asking about normal temperature, that choke accomodating charging chip should have22:56
* ShadowJK is charging main n900 from an "emergency charger" thing now22:56
Estel_from AA battery?;)22:56
ShadowJKyes, 4 AA batteries22:56
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: by 'normal' you mean what's a still tolerable temperature for the choke?22:56
Estel_DocScrutinizer, I wonder what temperature would be "regular" one22:57
Estel_i.e. which one should warn about something going on bad22:57
DocScrutinizer05I dunno22:57
Estel_to stop it on time22:57
ShadowJK30% 990 mA22:57
RiDi wouldn't mind carrying 1kg of battery power to feed this hungry phone, but the wires would be the issue22:57
Estel_RiD, why 1G, You just need dual-scud22:57
DocScrutinizer05aha, well, warning level starts at maybe 150°C22:57
RiDnot enough, Estel_22:58
Estel_DocScrutinizer, uh22:58
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* ShadowJK copes with single japod22:58
kerioEstel_: make an otterbox with enough space for three batteries plskthx22:58
Estel_RiD, so you may feel tasty project of bvringing 2x 18650 which total in 6,800 mAh22:58
RiDyes I do.22:58
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: but usually it won't get hot at all22:58
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, I see, well I would like to ensure that it's not stressed more than it should at all22:58
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DocScrutinizer05unless it runs into saturation where it rises temperature extremely sharp22:59
Estel_so I suspect it shouldn't be considerably hotter than battery cell22:59
DocScrutinizer05as a rule of thumb if your burn your thumb on it, sth is wrong22:59
Estel_RiD, search for my [Pre pre pre] annoucement of black alu body22:59
Estel_You can even pre-order :)22:59
RiDI already saw it. Too bad I won't preorder23:00
Estel_DocScrutinizer, hehe23:00
Estel_RiD, no problem23:00
Estel_BTw I wonder why nanowire LiIon's concept is so stalled23:00
ShadowJK35%, rate 964 sys -66 ch 103023:01
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Estel_sys -66? with screen on?23:02
ShadowJKEstel_; basically all battery techs you hear about are 10 years out from being comercial, and even then the patents will make it unobtainable for another 5-10?23:02
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Estel_ShadowJK, sounds sane23:02
ShadowJKit gets closer to truth once battery gets a bit fuller23:02
Estel_Guys, I get real problem. Since month or more, no matter, what, I can't make mafw to play my .ogg music and theora videos23:04
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Estel_filetypes are registered with tracker. as for .ogg files, it even KNOW playtime of file23:04
Estel_yet, it refuses to play23:04
Estel_it started with CSSU update to something tracker related23:04
Estel_I tried rebuilding 5tracker database countless of times23:04
Estel_interesingly, .flac works well23:05
Estel_my music collection is entirely in .ogg...23:05
kerioEstel_: are you using OMP?23:05
vi_lol. FOSS fail.23:05
Estel_kerio, sure, but it shouldn't matter, as it's playing through mafw23:05
Estel_for other openmediaplayer users, .ogg works23:06
kerioi don't have an .ogg to test23:06
vi_so you chose music through OMP, it opens, tells you track length but does not actually play?23:07
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Estel_vi_, yes23:09
Estel_If I have playlsit of .ogg files, it shows correct play time of them all, then, correct play time of individual song when i start playing...23:09
Estel_but jsut cycles through all songs23:09
Estel_i.e. tries to play any of it23:09
Estel_if I would have, lets say, fuckin mp3 in playlist, it would start playing it normally, after cycling through .ogg earlier on playlist23:10
Estel_then, it would stil lfail on next .ogg23:10
Estel_well, tracker even properly catalogs albums from those .ogg files23:10
kerioi have a song that's not indexed properly :(23:11
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ShadowJK1890 Seconds, 50% charged, rate: 840, sys: -53, ch: 893, voltage 4.08223:14
ShadowJK6 - 50% in half an hour23:14
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Estel_well, sounds sane, consideringf 1250 charge23:14
Estel_625 is half of it23:14
Estel_which is close to being half of Your battery23:14
ShadowJK2 hours or so left to reach full :P23:14
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: those numbers puzzle hell outa me23:15
Estel_saturation charge ;)23:15
Estel_ShadowJK, You may just settle with "fast charge" i.e. 80% or so23:15
Estel_stop doing it when current reaches 50% of set one23:15
Estel_healthy for battery, and quick on charging time23:15
keriooh ok, touching the file and killing tracker solved it23:16
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: probably my idea of meaning of "rate" "sys" and "charge" is not in line with yours ;-)23:16
ShadowJKIf your commute is half hour long, and you have a decent car charger in yor car, you get half your battery charged when driving home from work, if you used up most of it at work :)23:16
Estel_ShadowJK, so there is completely no sue of assumed 132 mOhm resistance between charger and battery, in
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer; rate is rate as reported by bq27200, the rest are made up23:17
Estel_but charge is not entirely made up, as it read from limits23:17
ShadowJKEstel_; it doesnt make any difference for bq2720023:17
Estel_i.e it was made up when i was trying to charge with 1250 with bme on (due to 950 limit), but without it, it limits current to 900 in later parts of charge, etc23:17
Estel_ShadowJK, I see23:18
Estel_so what is exactly affected by it in
DocScrutinizer05well, for me that reads like rate is what bq24150 is set to, sys is delivering(!) 53mA to result in a total charge to battery of 89323:18
keriodid anyone try a boxwave external case for the n900?23:18
ShadowJKbq24150 outputs 4.2V, but there's voltage drop due to the current flowing through narrow pcb traces, so less than 4.2V arrives at battery23:19
Estel_vi_, no ideas about my .ogg problem with mafw?23:19
Estel_kerio, tried file I've linked You?23:19
keriooh, sorry, not yet23:19
Estel_ShadowJK, I see23:19
Estel_kerio, if You could download it and check if it plays ok for You... CSSU-T and openmediaplayer, yep?23:19
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer; net rate into battery is 840, system consumes 53 (estimated), charger is providing 893 (estimated)23:20
kerioEstel_: huh, i can't download it anymore23:20
ShadowJKReal actual system use is at or below 20mA23:20
keriono, nvm23:20
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: :nod:  - just the naming and display is confusing to me23:20
ShadowJKor should be around that in offline mode screen off and 5sec loop23:21
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ShadowJKI mostly added the ch column to see the point at which the charger isn't outputting full current anymore, point at which it enters CV portion of charge23:22
Estel_and it's very usefull23:22
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ShadowJK2450s, 4.093V, 60%, net rate 754, system use 56, charger current 81023:23
StyXman_since a few days my n900 does not answer to ping and all ports appear as filtered. iptables -L shows no rules at all. what can be wrong?23:23
ShadowJKwifi ap powersaving fail23:23
* ShadowJK recalls his Diablo era awk script where he called "rate" balance 23:25
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keriodid anyone try a boxwave and/or otterbox case for the n900?23:27
vi_Estel_: plays fine here.23:27
vi_kerio: I have an otterbox.23:28
keriois it worth it?23:28
vi_makes the tank like n900 EVEN MOR TANK LIKE.23:28
vi_I think so.23:28
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vi_my one is getting pretty fucked.23:29
kerioso it breaks?23:29
vi_no, it can take it.23:29
vi_I just goes to show how much abuse my n900 has been saved from.23:29
vi_big gouges and shit out of it.23:29
Estel_vi_, well, for me it doesn't and I have no diea what else could i purge and reinstall23:29
Estel_but it's really irritating23:30
vi_Estel_: I have not idea, sorry.23:30
vi_Estel_: reflash!23:30
Estel_sure, thanks ;P23:30
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Estel_it's on top list of my dreams23:30
vi_Estel_: does it work with stock media player?23:30
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Estel_good question. Now I need only to find again this value, that I edited ages ago, to replace opening with openmediaplayer with openmediaplayer23:31
Estel_some dbus call or what?23:31
vi_kerio: be warned, it makes the massive n900 SUPERMASSIVE.23:31
vi_men will mock it, women will fear it.23:31
kerioEstel_: plays fine here23:31
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vi_it is written on the OMP wiki entry.23:32
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vi_Estel_: have you tried 'clearing' the OMP playlist?23:33
ShadowJKwtf, dealextreme is selling Nokia N923:34
Estel_vi_, as for playlist, sure23:34
Estel_thanks, will check on wiki23:34
Estel_ShadowJK, fake?23:34
ShadowJKat the price it better be real23:34
vi_dealextreme are a hoax.23:34
Estel_lately I seen fake N900's with similarly looking keyboard and screen (camera placement etc)23:34
Estel_vi_, for theora it's even more strange23:35
Estel_it says "Failed to open file. Failed to find coded:"23:35
Estel_rest is in english23:35
Estel_wtf it means is a mystery to me, what appendx23:35
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vi_hey do not carry half their stuff in stock.  Then they will hold your entire order back for months while they wait for whatever shithole human rights abuse factory to make more.23:36
Estel_of course it also know theora file playtime properly23:36
Estel_of error message23:36
Estel_]it worked well before23:36
Estel_anmd i'm sure it will work for You too23:36
vi_fuck theora.23:37
vi_fuck ogg.23:37
vi_Estel_: reinstall MAFW?23:38
ShadowJKvi_; they dont have even 1% in stock23:38
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ShadowJKat the bottom of each page you can see the name of the real seller of the product23:38
vi_ShadowJK: they have some wierd shit as well, like placenta extract.23:39
ShadowJKThey've been pretty good at splitting orders for me23:39
ShadowJKvi_; well it's almost like ebay, chinese supplier gets user/pass to the site and starts listing random crap :P23:39
kerioyay, bought an otterbox23:40
Estel_vi_, maybe, but I doubt it will fix it :P23:40
Estel_it's something retardish related to tracker I'm afraid23:40
vi_Estel_: I doubt it.23:41
Estel_hm, will check stock player first...23:41
Estel_but x-annodex-decoder plugin?23:42
vi_Estel_: reinstalling mafw will run mafw post inst scripts.  they might contain some magic.23:42
Estel_will; try that immediately after trying stock player23:42
ShadowJK1 hour, 4.125V, 937mAh, 76%, rate 523, sys -45, ch 56823:42
vi_kerio: You will need to loosen your belt to fix that massive thing in your pants.23:43
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keriovi_: i have big pants23:43
infobotvi_ meant: kerio: You will need to loosen your belt to fit that massive thing in your pants.23:43
kerioshould i also buy some screen protectors?23:43
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Estel_lmao, I've created this wiki page for OMP23:43
Estel_and now I forget that it existed23:43
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Estel_as for extra-decoders, of course I've reinstalled them plentora of times, to no avail23:44
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Estel_vi_, stock mediaplayer just says it can't open file due to lack of codec23:49
Estel_for .ogg it says audio codec, for theora video codec23:49
Estel_of course, it also knows exact playtime and tags from it23:49
Estel_going to reinstall mafw23:49
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ShadowJK1 hour 10 minutes: 83%, 421mA into batt, 41 system use, charger outputting 46223:52
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kerioi repeat my question: should i buy some screen protectors?23:54
DocScrutinizer05dafaq, KDE + apps gets more INstable the older it grows23:54
* ShadowJK likes screen protector23:55
DocScrutinizer05^q in a konversation-tab: insta-segfault23:55
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DocScrutinizer05\o/ reproduceable23:56
DocScrutinizer05~lart KDE423:56
* infobot turns KDE4 into a lifesized tux doll23:56
DocScrutinizer05sure thing >:-((((23:57
DocScrutinizer05[KCrash Handler]23:58
DocScrutinizer05#6  0x00007fd69b3d3cc7 in Phonon::PulseSupport::PulseSupport() () from /usr/lib64/
DocScrutinizer05FSCK PA!23:58
DocScrutinizer05fsck phonon23:58
DocScrutinizer05seems I said that before23:58
kerioyo dawg i heard you like audio daemons so we put a daemon in yo daemon so you can audio while you crash23:59
vi_kerio: lol23:59
vi_also, yes. buy the best screen protector you can get.23:59

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