IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2012-07-27

zeq1freemangordon: re. LDFLAGS when using LTO.  You don't want to do that because the code will be unoptimized with extra sections with hints for the LTO stage.00:00
vi_can you get a chinese knockoff KB?00:00
Estel_freemangordon, I would like to upgrade to latest cssu-testing, but I'm little lost after reading thread. Currently what are "manual" things required (i.e. ones not related to repos), other than fixing microB for https?00:01
Estel_for google, to be precise00:01
Estel_I.e. is there any pending update to kp, that will make it even more integrated...00:01
Estel_so it is sane to wait few days more for main device, or it just works?00:01
Estel_normally I tets bleediong-edge things myself, but no i'm little late with reading00:01
zeq1freemangordon: that only applies of course if the linking is done separately.  If it's all done in one gcc instance it doesn't matter.00:01
Estel_also, kernel-power-settings,. what';s the status of it?00:01
Estel_i've seen kp15 in repos, but it was deleted by x-fade00:01
Estel_no there is kp-14 in devel00:02
infobotEstel_ meant: no there is kernel-power-settings-14 in devel00:02
vi_Estel_: wut, you mean KP51?00:02
Estel_In one device, I have kernel-power-settings 15, that got installed before it got removed from repos00:02
Estel_vi_, yea, I've heard about pending update for KP, but I don't know if it happened or not00:02
Estel_I just want to install thumb and I'm lsot about manual steps needed after, as it's WIP still00:03
Estel_i.e. if it's still required to mess with kernel-power-settings manually? or google fix is only one thing needed?00:03
kerioEstel_: i'm using the thumb repo without actually switching cssu flavour00:04
vi_Estel_: you should avoid thumb for a couple of days till the last updates are complete.00:04
vi_it is a minefield right now.00:05
Estel_vi, I have old version of thumb on one of my devices00:05
keriothat, too00:05
Estel_I see00:05
Estel_now I'm talking about main device :P00:05
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keriomake a full backupmenu backup and don't install the kernel or busybox-power from the thumb repo00:05
Estel_oh, yea, guys claiming that new hostmode eats less batery thaN old hostmode. suuure, it sounds beliveable00:05
Estel_kerio, why no busybox-power? post on TMO?00:06
vi_why not busybox?00:06
freemangordonand why not kernel?00:06
keriono, because it's thumby00:06
kerioand if you have to reflash a different kernel backupmenu won't work00:06
Estel_kerio, do You realise, than kernel is required for thumb?00:07
kerioyes i do00:07
keriono, wait00:07
kerioyou just need kp5100:07
Estel_also, I know that backupmenu doesn't restore kernels, it's no problem ;)00:07
kerioor any kernel with kernel-feature-whatever-errata00:07
vi_estel he is saying, if you update to BB thump and have to reinstall nokia kernel.  You are fucked.00:07
freemangordonguys, DO NOT UPDATE/INSTALL anything from thumb repo until told so00:08
Estel_first, I never use Nokia kernel :p second, why fucked, jsut flash ti via flasher and restore00:08
keriowell, you're "fucked"00:08
Estel_freemangordon, lol?00:08
kerioif you have a pc it's no problem00:08
vi_freemangordon: yes.00:08
freemangordonit is in inconsistent state right now, I am preparing an update00:08
zeq1freemangordon: what's up with the repo?00:08
Estel_freemangordon, thanks, it's what I asked about :)00:08
freemangordonzeq1: ^^^00:08
zeq1inconsistent state, yes00:09
zeq1I mean, what did you do to it? :)00:09
Estel_freemangordon, and kernel-power 51? We're going to see update in few days, or everythinh for now is in latest version?00:09
freemangordonnothing broken, but still ;)00:09
Estel_those r1 r2 etc versions confused me00:09
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freemangordonEstel_: see on TMO, don;t have time now00:09
Estel_last question - kernel-power settings state. Why one of ym devices have versioon 15, and that version got pulled out from repos, later, manually00:10
Estel_by x-fade00:10
vi_Estel_: there is kp51 in devel.00:10
kerioEstel_: KP51 is a separate thing, but KP51r1 should be the "stable" one00:10
Estel_freemangordon, thanks :P00:10
kerioEstel_: and k-p-s v15 is in the repos00:10
Estel_I just have 1272 posts to read on TMO :(00:10
kerioif you're unsure about what you've installed, uninstall and reinstall from -devel00:10
Estel_kerio, thanks, i know that, I was asking about "why it got manually pulled out of repos" at some point00:10
Estel_out of curiosity00:10
kerioit was never pulled out of the repos00:11
Estel_kerio, it was00:11
Estel_wait a minute *searches for link*00:11
kerionot k-p-s00:11
vi_Estel_: just echo your values strait to /sys.  no KPS required.00:11
Estel_vi_, that's an option too00:11
Estel_this is not madness, this is... parlamentar comission in polish goverment ;)00:12
Estel_jokes asie, I'll just wait few days with thumb00:12
Estel_as more I try to understand it's current state (and why so) the more confusing it is. It must wait until I read everything that I've missed in TMO00:13
Estel_see You all in 2056 :P00:13
keriowaaaaah why doesn't extras-devel use pdiffs00:13
Estel_joke of the year: I can always ask Council about current state of Community projects00:13
vi_in fact you can set almost everything from /etc/pmconfig.00:13
vi_Estel_: why is that a joke?00:14
Estel_try that, You will know the answer00:14
* kerio has everything upgraded00:15
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Estel_also, I need to mess up with N950 - I've updated it, finally, to latest version via one click flasher00:16
Estel_it's different story00:16
Estel_reboot loop[ after upgrade on device left me without battery00:16
Estel_and emergency charging wasn't able to charge it00:16
Estel_had to take it out of device and charge in external charger, (battery), as fuckin one click flasher didn't wanted to flash with less than 30 percent batteruy00:16
freemangordonFUUUK, I am out of cigarettes and microb refuse to compile with gcc 4.7.200:17
Estel_well, it was 2,96 V when I took it out00:17
keriofreemangordon: oh god D:00:17
Estel_freemangordon, good moment to drop smoking :P00:17
keriobuy more cigarettes! hurry!00:17
vi_freemangordon: progress to roll-ups.00:17
Estel_sure, it's time to drop smoking :P00:17
kerioEstel_: anyway, haters gonna hate00:17
keriothe only unupgraded package i have is the mp one because i held it00:18
kerioand i'm using a shitton of repos00:18
zeq1freemangordon: can't you compare the failing code with what's in the mozilla-central codebase?00:18
Estel_well, still, even on newest version, N950 works in portrait mode, mosltly./ I don't know, Nokianks are fckd in head. On N900, they did landscape only, and much effort was put to bring portrait00:18
Estel_now in N950 they did portrait-mostly, and much effort is to bring landscape00:18
freemangordonEstel_: are you sure you want to install the microb-engine i've compiled after being without cigarettes for couple of hours?00:18
kerioso it did compile!00:18
Estel_freemangordon, sure :D I always though that artists on drugs would perform even *better* without them :D00:18
zeq1freemangordon: most common cause of failure with 4.7 is missing headers l00:18
Estel_but no one knows for sure00:19
keriothen i don't want to install it :c00:19
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freemangordonzeq1: this time the reason is because the source code is FUBAR00:19
Estel_freemangordon, You can try doing it like in some lame hacker movie00:19
Estel_when "hero" was "hacking" into fbi or something00:19
Estel_under 2 minutes00:19
Estel_via typing in fancy tyerminal gui00:20
zeq1freemangordon: have you tried applying the microb patches to mozilla-central?  I was thinking of trying to port them earlier today.00:20
Estel_with gun next to his head and girl do9ing him forced blowjob. Most ridicolous "hacker" scene in movies, at all00:20
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freemangordonzeq1: the function declaration in header is void foo(const bar&), the definition in cpp is void foo(bar*)00:20
Estel_it's still haunting some people, years after watching. I wonder how much fkcd in head script writer was00:21
freemangordonWTF? zeq1, I am not sure I want to use a SW written by those guys00:21
zeq1is that from the microb patches?00:21
vi_Estel_: you have a none thumb device?00:21
freemangordondon't think so00:21
freemangordonzeq1: ^^^00:21
Estel_vi_, currently with me, no thumb00:21
Estel_one device lying ind rawer 300 miles away got old thumb00:22
Estel_ind rawer*00:22
Estel_in drawer*00:22
zeq1it's quite a crusty xulrunner version00:22
vi_Estel_: good.  can you echo top to a file and pastebinit for me?00:22
freemangordonzeq1: most probably it is original code, after buying cigarretes i will check what is without patches. bbl00:22
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vi_estel: can you paste it on tmo with 'cat /proc/swaps' and 'free'?00:26
vi_start a new thread with a name like thumb vs non-thumb memory comparisons.00:26
vi_I will also update it with my stats.00:26
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Estel_vi_, all right00:27
Estel_vi_, mind You, that I have Ed enabled all the time00:27
vi_Hopefully we can get the ball rolling on quantifying the true benefits of thumb.00:27
Estel_not LXDE, jsut chrooted into00:27
vi_Estel_: that is fine.00:27
Estel_ok, log I've send Yuo is after device sitting idle for few hours00:28
Estel_without anything openm00:28
vi_at this stage in the game everyone runs a fucked up personalised setup.00:28
keriovi_: also note that browserd has a bug regarding the fact that it doesn't close down properly00:28
kerioor something00:28
Estel_what do you think, which TMO category is suited best for this topic?00:29
Estel_memo 5/fremantle, I thing00:29
Estel_applications doesn';t sound ok for it00:29
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Woody14619Funny you should consider the "joke of the year" asking Council about current projects, Estel_.00:33
Woody14619What I would consider the "joke of the year" around Council, would be very different.00:34
Estel_nice for You00:34
Estel_vi_, either than cat /proc/swaps You need anything else?00:34
Estel_and top output, of course00:34
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Estel_vi_, anyway, here it is:00:36
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vi_yes.  sort by memory useage in top.00:45
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keriois there a way to get the memory usage without buffers and caches?00:48
keriooh nvm, the second line in the output of free00:49
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Estel_vi__, I've fixed top output (was fubar) and posted free too00:57
Estel_in thread on tmo00:57
Estel_should be OK'ish now00:57
Estel_vi_ even00:57
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Estel_Now I have to a) update main device to all thumb enchanced flavors and so goes on b) make N950 usable and test many things on it c) start messing up with 2 raspberry Pi's that are lying on desk next to me01:08
Estel_... in 7 days before my 2 weeks holidays start01:08
freemangordonzeq1: after all it was not Nokia to screw it up. That was coming from the upstream01:09
DocScrutinizer05appguard banned from google store? ROTFL!!01:10
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freemangordonno antivirus for android? heh01:11
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DocScrutinizer05no proper alternative to what Nokia thought they could implement with aegis01:13
DocScrutinizer05but actually it's a lame joke that google bans a good app from their store, probably and most likely because it could actually allow users to regain control over their own data01:15
freemangordonno more rootkits, no good for the big brother :D01:15
DocScrutinizer05and I'm totally baffled as I thought android "security" been always like appguard - obviously I've been mistaken01:16
DocScrutinizer05anyway, appguard still available in the internets, from a german university of course ;-P01:17
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japhnow you're talking ed memory footprint is this not my old friend ed the editor01:25
DocScrutinizer05and fools at #harmattan don't wanna hear how appguard is better than any aegis01:26
FIQ|n900two op?01:27
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer: it's not like if we want to listen aegis suddenly will go away01:27
Estel_DocScrutinizer, I'll put ti straight - if someone like aegis, he msut be fckd in head01:30
Estel_damn, need to get used to writing from N95001:30
Estel_sorry for typos01:30
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Estel_but, probably, those are same guys, that think capacitive screenm is "more precise" or sensitive than resistive01:30
FIQ|n900oh god01:31
FIQ|n900capacitive screens...01:31
FIQ|n900I don't like them, but I guess I'll have to live with it sooner or later01:32
FIQ|n900capacitive screen = no more nail-stylus01:33
Estel_capacitive screen - no more hitting anything smaller than iphone button01:33
Estel_and no, You won't have01:33
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Estel_resistive screens got very good multitouch implemented anyway01:33
Estel_in low end user products, capacitive will surely flood the market as they do now01:34
DocScrutinizer05you just have to live with it like you have to live with glossy laptop display01:34
FIQ|n900though it's not as horrible as lacking hardware keyboard :P01:34
Estel_but no sane person will pay many $$$ for geeky product supposed to be mobile computer, with capacitive01:34
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Estel_unless thei fix technology to properly support precision01:34
ZogG_laptopEstel_: how is it connected one to another?01:34
Estel_DocScrutinizer, nope, I buiy only notebooks with mat display01:34
Estel_vote via your money.01:34
FIQ|n900[00:33:37] <Estel_> capacitive screen - no more hitting anything smaller than iphone button01:34
FIQ|n900this is another reason why I don't like them yeah01:35
Estel_not to mention pressure sensitivity01:35
Estel_I mean, sensing real pressure01:35
ZogG_laptopi had no problems with capacitive screens, while push harder to get response is always been the problem with resistance ones01:35
Estel_but capacitive fanboys *wavew to zog) don't have a clue, anyway01:35
Estel_ZogG, as said, open anything real - like easy debian, - and try it with capacitive01:36
Estel_then come back ;)01:36
FIQ|n900ZogG_laptop: lol, that's *better*01:36
ZogG_laptopEstel_: sure i don't. it's not like i had n900 before... =)01:36
ZogG_laptopEstel_: yes and use stylus in bus while standing, truely geek01:36
Estel_no problems with it01:37
ZogG_laptopEstel_: don't you think that mobile UI should be mobile UI and desktop ui shuld be desktop01:37
Estel_but I probably don't have crippled fingers, like most tenaagers have01:37
Estel_dropping every small item 5 times per minute01:37
Estel_BTw, resistive works great with fingers, ya know?01:37
FIQ|n900[00:36:53] <ZogG_laptop> Estel_: yes and use stylus in bus while standing, truely geek01:37
ZogG_laptopEstel_: as well geeks don't use fancy unity but awesome and things where you can live without mouse01:37
FIQ|n900I always use my nails, much more comfortable imo01:37
Estel_FIQ|n900, exactly01:38
Estel_on the go, I oeprated it with fingers, without problems, as per nails01:38
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: Estel_ i don't grow nails just for phone =)01:38
Estel_also, I got this smal guitar-like thing from 532001:38
Estel_ZogG, face it, tennagers grown on capacitive screens have crippled fingers :P01:38
FIQ|n900also, I accidently lost the stylus to my old phone... didn't hurt me at all01:38
ZogG_laptopand if you have no problems with fingers you can use capacity01:38
FIQ|n900(which also had a resistive screen)01:38
Estel_I'll repeat it again, last tiome - capacitive stylus must be almsot as big as finger to work01:39
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i dunno about it, never checked teenagers fingers01:39
* DocScrutinizer05 feeds ZogG_laptop a buffalo horn01:39
Estel_which make it useless01:39
DocScrutinizer05eat THAT01:39
DocScrutinizer05instead of your fingernails01:39
Estel_lol :)01:39
FIQ|n900also Estel_01:39
Estel_the problem with capacitive is that You can't comfortably use anything smaller than iphone button-sized01:39
Estel_...which makes it unusable for anything other than dumb-phone things, like angry birds01:39
FIQ|n900it's not the lack of diameter, more like the (lack of) temperature iirc?01:39
Estel_FIQ|n900, no01:40
ZogG_laptopEstel_: there is only one thing in resistance better than capacity which is pressure measures.01:40
Estel_it depend son type, but N950 and N9, no01:40
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Estel_FIQ|n900, basically, is msut be something capacitive that forwards capacitance from your body to screen01:40
Estel_but some IDIOT decided, that small detection areas must be errors01:40
Estel_so they're filtyered out01:40
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you have very good comparing and argument skills i must say =)01:40
DocScrutinizer05capacitive is from capacitor.01:40
FIQ|n900Estel_: brilliant01:41
DocScrutinizer05~wiki capacitor (electric)01:41
Estel_= only things like 15mm diameter are detected01:41
infobotI couldn't find a matching article in wikipedia, look for yerselves:
FIQ|n900thank you xchat for that broken link01:41
Estel_but of course, it's like iphone retina screens - there are always fanmboys like ZogG, who "know better"01:41
DocScrutinizer05dielectric constant * area / distance01:41
Estel_we will eternally have idiots, proving that "retina" screens are "superior technology"01:41
Estel_and we will always have idiots, that doesn't see capacitive screens are just about manufacturing costs01:42
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you know that you just switch name and you can use your sentense against you01:42
Estel_and both technically and as per usability, worse for user01:42
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ZogG_laptopEstel_: but sure it's like Estel_ fanboys who knows better01:42
Estel_well, some people just like to think that "industry angels decided to give us better things" ;)01:42
FIQ|n900ZogG_laptop: indeed, which makes that argument useless01:42
Estel_marketing guys did their job done01:42
ZogG_laptopEstel_: if you use desktop resolution and fancy DE on mobile, than it doesn't mean you a geek, i would say opposite01:43
FIQ|n900but IMO resistive > capacitive, for the reasons I and Estel_ has stated01:43
Estel_ZogG, the whole point is that You don't have any counter-arguments agaisnt capacitive screens lack of sensing small area touch01:43
Estel_You jsut write01:43
Estel_"resistive is better only via pressure sensitivity"01:43
Estel_while You ignore any arguments, that doesn't match Your fanboish viewe01:43
FIQ|n900also this is turning into a flameware01:43
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: it's not like i'm trying to prove my point here, ijust like capacitive and said it, but he decided to call me fanboy and prove i'm wrong (on prefering something), it amuses me =P01:43
Estel_as every "discussion" with ZogG  ;)01:44
Estel_well, we're talking about merit of technical and practical benefits01:44
Estel_not about what someone like or not01:44
FIQ|n900nice typo01:44
Estel_my point is that industry feeds us with capacitive screens for their reasons, not our comfort01:44
ZogG_laptopEstel_: the whole dialog is you saying a lot of crap with no arguements and than it's "like all discussion with ZogG" =)01:44
Estel_as for both technical and prtactical reasons, capacitive screens are inferior01:45
Estel_it's just more comfortable for *them* to put it, and marketing department took feeding fanboys with bullshit that it's "better", like with "retina" screens01:45
ZogG_laptopEstel_: if UI is good you can use fingers, as touch screen in mobiles are made for fingers. so you can touch it. Stylus is yesterday. that's it01:45
Estel_in dumb phones, yes01:45
FIQ|n900DocScrutinizer05: you removed the bot's "let's announce every replace!" thing? :P01:45
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i still don't see how it's worse that resistance01:45
Estel_in any other use case - l;ike real mobile computer - it's design flaw01:45
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Estel_we're tal;king about things pretending to be linux-related mobile computers with phone funcionality01:46
Estel_as in N95001:46
FIQ|n900also ZogG_laptop what about websites?01:46
Estel_or really mobile computers, as in N90001:46
Estel_yea, clicking text links suxx too01:46
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: i had no problems with double tap that would focus to right size01:46
Estel_unless someone read them in 300% zoom, which is, probably, the case with teenagers with broken eyes01:47
FIQ|n900I tried to use iPhone to go to a pair of websites01:47
Estel_sure, 4 x more clicks than needed01:47
Estel_double tap to zoom01:47
Estel_then zoom again to desired size01:47
Estel_very optimal.01:47
ZogG_laptopEstel_: taking off stylus and putting it back, losing it is worse than 4 clicks01:47
Estel_why won't You just swap to text based browsers, at all?01:47
FIQ|n900Estel_: I'm vision impared01:47
ZogG_laptopand again it's not practical when you are on the way01:47
FIQ|n900ZogG_laptop: ok, didn't know that01:47
ZogG_laptopyour concentration would be on phone instead of walking =)01:48
Estel_ZogG, fingertips ;) also, due to lesser area detected, resistive are better in this case, even with regular fingers01:48
FIQ|n900but IMO it would be more practical not having to rezoom everytime01:48
Estel_BTw, when You walk, better not use phone watching screen at all01:48
Estel_truck may hit You m;)01:48
infobotDocScrutinizer05: :)01:48
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: Estel_ most modern sites are mobile friendly01:48
Estel_sure, for facebook fans it may suffice01:48
Estel_but for this you need 200 mhz dumb phone01:49
Estel_on real mobile computers, I want to watch normal sites01:49
ZogG_laptopand i need to zoom mostly on sites like old forums with really small links. while normal sites have swipe and other tasty stuff01:49
FIQ|n900They are, but I hate mobile sites that cripple everything01:49
Estel_otherwise, 200x200 pixels screen suffice01:49
FIQ|n900Estel_: Indeed01:49
RiD|AFKi hate mobile sites mostly01:49
RiD|AFKthey're like way too basic01:49
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RiDdoesn't let you do anything01:49
RiDjust "check this, no more support because it's ass to do so"01:49
Estel_well, the thing is, with resistive screens You can use fingers, stylus, whatever - hit big detection area, or 2 pixel wide one01:49
* DocScrutinizer05 heads out puking a little01:49
Estel_with capacitive, youre cripopled01:49
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i don't like that if you don't like something you assume people who do not agree with you are teenagers and using only facebook. it's ignorance and stupid btw =)01:50
Estel_and forced to use only one method01:50
Estel_well, saying "you can always use mobile-optimized sites only" for mobile computer is indeed ignorance01:50
ZogG_laptopEstel_: if finger works on resistance is would work on capacitive as well. simple like that01:50
FIQ|n900oh by the way Estel_, what are you plans with n950? i.e. what will you play around with?01:51
ZogG_laptopstylus is less comfy than finger, because finger is simply part of you01:51
Estel_too much time wasted on this pointless discussion. I'm glad that my belowed N900 have nice resistive screen, and my heart cries that N950 1GB of ram is kinda wasted, as no real programs for it01:51
Estel_like running Ed01:51
Estel_unless someone invent notebook-touchpad like control for it01:51
ZogG_laptopthe one reason resistance can be better is simply the pressure measure when you can use it for painting and things like that01:51
Estel_ZogG, wrong as always01:51
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Estel_on resistive, You can touch with half of Your finger too01:51
DocScrutinizer05ZogG_laptop: my fingernails are also a part of me, and I'm not eating them like you do01:52
Estel_on capacitive, there is minimum treeshold on surface detected01:52
Estel_You can't use smaller thing than set diameter, period01:52
FIQ|n900Estel_: you're using ed? :p01:52
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: i cut them and i dn't grow them long like a girl, what can i do01:52
Estel_FIQ|n900, extensively. as in easy debian01:52
FIQ|n900oh.. right01:52
Estel_ZogG, any normal person with short fingernails don't have problems using them to tap something on screen01:52
FIQ|n900wasn't that obvious :D01:52
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FIQ|n900but Estel_, what will you play around with @n950?01:53
ZogG_laptopEstel_: but the angle to touch it?01:53
Estel_FIQ|n900, will try community things like open ekrnel and e4nchancements01:53
ZogG_laptop90% would make you touch with tip of finger01:53
Estel_out of factory state is kinda unusable01:53
FIQ|n900ah, but will you do actual development with it?01:54
Estel_FIQ|n900, define development. If what I did for N900 was development, sure. But I don't think it's fair to call it like that01:54
ZogG_laptopEstel_: if you dont like your n950 give it to e-eyes01:54
Estel_and for sure I'm going to do some hardware things with it :)01:54
Estel_ZogG, why, You can always give Your one.01:55
DocScrutinizer05there is no such thing like development on harmattan - only qtm drag'n'drop "programming"01:55
Estel_noe one said we don't like it, which don't mean we can't point out flaws01:55
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i do like mine and use it, but you only bitching about it01:55
Estel_DocScrutinizer, that's too :P01:55
FIQ|n900ah, just wondered if a n950 was justified (didn't want to start a flame here, but whatever) :p01:55
Estel_difference between sane user and fanboy - I like it, but I moar on it's flaws01:55
Estel_like I moar on N900's out of factory usb port01:55
Estel_or lack of HDMI out01:55
FIQ|n900DocScrutinizer05: sounds really complicated01:55
Estel_but that one is fixable, at least01:55
FIQ|n900is there tutorials available? :<01:56
Estel_either by reinforcing usb port, or as in hdmi out, using raspberry Pi as middle-man01:56
Estel_FIQ|n900, I'm surprised that someone stil lcome with that topic, but CA awards were not about development :P01:56
FIQ|n900whatever :p01:57
trxDocScrutinizer ++01:57
Estel_for developmkent, Yuo have 300 prior devices, and another 30 N950's from this pyear propgrams01:57
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: it's easy to judge and say things when you don't really do anything. so don't listen to them. you can use any language there =)01:57
japhI only have myself to blame but I *did* read 'something about fm chip' on n950 and that was enough for me to take for granted that, ok, great, I can use it like I use the n900 in the car. Big mistake since it's not even fixable by me01:57
FIQ|n900Just wondered what you would do with it01:57
* FIQ|n900 wants one too d:01:57
Estel_japh, yea, that's another overkill01:57
Estel_FMTX transmitter present, but not connected to antenna01:57
Estel_well, if I ever do custom alu body for N950 for bigger battery - like with N900 - i'll put FMTX there01:58
Estel_external one01:58
Estel_for example, rated up to 1W, so You can jam half of city with your music :P01:58
ZogG_laptopit seems to me that actually not me here is fanboy as i like both n9 and n900. but people here saying that n900 is "da bes phone evar"01:58
zeq1freemangordon: you've fixed it then?01:58
Estel_(with external antenna connected)01:58
ZogG_laptopEstel_: did you finish the n900's one btw?01:58
Estel_it's about looking at things meritocratic way. N950 got some things better, but others are blockers, for mobile computer use case :(01:59
japhit would've been so much better with it. And 16G is way too little space , at least for me... It'd be fine if I could add 64G of sdhc but that was another thing I didn't look up; I thought that hey why would nokia make this cool n900++ device and leave out some of the most awesomest things01:59
FIQ|n900ZogG_laptop: I'm preferring n900 due to its' keyboard01:59
japhoh well01:59
zeq1I'm going to build a new cputransp devkit with a modern qemu01:59
ZogG_laptopEstel_: any preview photos or actually anything and not just talking01:59
Estel_ZogG, see thread on TMO. that's why i've said "if I ever", as N900 one is priority now01:59
Estel_Well, check for Yourself, TMO thread is public ;)01:59
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: i like keyboard too, but again if UI is wise and it's matter of getting used too01:59
Estel_also, it's kinda funny, as You haven't donated single penny for it01:59
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FIQ|n900oh please02:00
japhn900 is great and maemo is great, but the issue is that it's too damn slow today. With 512M more ram... sure02:00
Estel_yet You're bitching about lack of progress? Seriously?02:00
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i saw thread, there was nothing on first post.02:00
FIQ|n900not a single touch-keyboard will ever make me happy02:00
Estel_ZogG, that's nice, as thread like that are for people that can read 10 pages thread, not only single post :)02:00
ZogG_laptopEstel_: talking is only talking02:00
japhfiq|n900, have you tried this 'swype' thing?02:00
Estel_FIQ|n900, following twisted logic of that guy, You don't need phone at all02:00
Estel_You may get used to carrying desktop with You02:00
FIQ|n900tried every variants, various android phones, various iphone models, the DS/3DS, nothing suited me02:01
Estel_and riding statioonary bicycle for powering it02:01
japhI also said like that before I tried it, and I still insist that typing on the screen sucks02:01
FIQ|n900japh: I've heard of it02:01
FIQ|n900uh wait02:01
ZogG_laptopEstel_: that's actually you using desctop apps on phone =) not me02:01
japhyes ;)02:01
FIQ|n900Isn't it the android spellchecker?02:01
Estel_japh, after extensive training, swype may be faster for writing typical sms messages02:01
Estel_but nothing more02:01
japhuhm not really a spellchecker afaik02:01
FIQ|n900or smth02:01
Estel_ZogG, ever heard about why people created notebooks, and later, mobile computers, like N900? ;)02:01
japhI don't really get how it works because I can't type on it fast enough I guess02:01
FIQ|n900i meant02:01
Estel_for me, you can go back to stone age02:01
ZogG_laptopEstel_: your logic is broken02:02
FIQ|n900and also02:02
Estel_suure ;)02:02
ZogG_laptopEstel_: new is always a change!02:02
japhit takes about 2 minutes for me typing one of my passwords on the onscreen keyboard :(02:02
FIQ|n900touch keyboards removes a lot of screen space02:02
Estel_well, for mobile computer hardware keyboard is a must02:02
FIQ|n900things that could be used for something *useful*02:02
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you want something smaller, lighter, than it would not be the same as desctop.02:02
Estel_just like good screen, not that capacitive thing :(02:02
FIQ|n900like an editor/terminal/webpage/etc02:03
Estel_ZogG, wrong as always. Smaller ands lighter doesn't necessary mean cripple din features02:03
ZogG_laptopEstel_: it's only u saying cripple.02:03
Estel_modularity allow to sue N900 as full fledged desktop, depending on peripherials you carry with You02:03
Estel_for example, Yuo can even connect serial cable to it, or parallel02:03
ZogG_laptopEstel_: than just make exact copy of computer, just smaller and use it =)02:03
Estel_and in form factor of mobile phone. so? N900 is kinda this02:04
ZogG_laptopEstel_: and it can make coffee for you as well. right.02:04
Estel_well, it seems that You're just no in *our* use case group :)02:04
FIQ|n900ZogG_laptop: that would work, if the form factor was a bit improved02:04
Estel_You want dumb phone with useless resources like fact cpu and ram02:04
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you can connect serial cable to N900?02:04
Estel_as yopu can;'t utilize them02:04
Estel_ZogG, sure02:04
ZogG_laptopEstel_: and you did it?02:04
Estel_we wan't mobile computer with phone funcionality02:04
Estel_ZogG, sure ;)02:04
ZogG_laptopEstel_: and you use it in eveyday life?02:05
japhnokia made some really annoying design faults but then again there's still nothing out there that can come close to either n950 nor n900. Everything sucks, this is just what sucks the least02:05
Estel_I carry usb->serial adaptor when I need it02:05
FIQ|n900japh: indeed02:05
Estel_for example, debugging CNc machines on field02:05
Estel_other people connect N900 to car OBSII systems02:05
Estel_other people do other fancy things02:05
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i prefer something to be more comfy in everyday life use, than just something that can make things for just prove of concept02:05
Estel_having real computer, YOU decide how to use it02:05
Estel_not vendor02:05
Estel_well, so youre typical windows user mentality type02:06
FIQ|n900oh well02:06
ZogG_laptopEstel_: any modern car can have wireless connection and apps with nice ui to do what you want to do02:06
japhI wouldn't really care for regular cell phone use since today who makes regular phone calls anyway?02:06
Estel_linux mentality type is that we can, but not *must* use other options02:06
Estel_so we have choice02:06
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ZogG_laptopfor hardware things there are special tools for that02:06
FIQ|n900if someone made a mobile with the form factor of n900, improved specs, a real OS02:06
Estel_and everyone can put combination of features available that likes much, via peripherials, or programs02:06
FIQ|n900then take my money02:06
japhWhen I need to call grandma I use the 3310 anyway02:06
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FIQ|n900if not, I'll go ahead and buy a new n900 when it's needed02:07
Estel_japh, buth having possibility to do phone calls don't hurt :)02:07
japhmhm good luck fiq|n90002:07
Estel_and mobile network02:07
Estel_it makes great pair02:07
japhyou better hurry up I'm afraid :p02:07
FIQ|n900japh: :<02:07
Estel_japh, new as in sue din great condition02:07
FIQ|n900my phone will break soon I believe02:07
Estel_FIQ|n900, remember about me selling N900's :D02:07
Estel_with reinforced port ;)02:07
japhyes but I've bought a few this year and they're already getting harder to come by02:07
FIQ|n900it's breaking apart right now02:07
Estel_japh, not in off-line world of small shops02:08
FIQ|n900and I do love the reinforced-usb part02:08
Estel_but I agree that they're not produced anymore02:08
japhhmm what was that now again02:08
FIQ|n900this reminds me of...02:08
Estel_I wonder what Jolla will made for us02:08
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FIQ|n900@ people crawling out to get the n900s that are left02:08
Estel_I'm afraid it may end up with keyboard less device, as they're Harmattan legacy02:08
Estel_in love with N902:08
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you'll be disappointed with capacitive screen and "fanboys" phone02:09
FIQ|n900way after the last one is produced02:09
Estel_at best, I don't expect real screen digitizer, probably jsut capacitive one. But if rest will be ok02:09
Estel_but maybe they will surprise us?:D02:09
japhI wonder how many deviced nokia could sell if they only let us people make one order. It seems like everyone wants n900/n950 and no one really wants n902:09
FIQ|n900haha :p02:09
Estel_honestly, i still belive, that one day, Community will go Rpi/openpandora way, i.e. doing open (as much as possible) hardware on it's own02:10
FIQ|n900japh: doesn't openpandora do that? :P02:10
japhI saw there's an external keyboard thingy for n9 on sale now that'll 'transform your n9 to a n950'02:10
Estel_japh, i'm sure some people would choose N9 too02:10
FIQ|n900i.e. creates on order basis02:10
Estel_the problem si that Nokia don't even like own N9 and 808 pureview :P02:10
japhestel_, some people yes but I don't think we who talk here would02:10
Estel_japh, some would, look at zog ;P02:10
ZogG_laptopfanatism is the best way to go02:10
* DocScrutinizer05 grabs the master_of_trolling medal and runs02:11
Estel_japh, honestly, while N950 is grerat device, my N900 stil ldoes circles around it in terms of usability02:11
FIQ|n900DocScrutinizer05: :D02:11
japhyou are free to pick whatever you want of course, I'm just saying that in general we are not 'normal' customers or whatever they like to call it02:11
Estel_maybe qwazix's work on bringing fremantle programs to N950 will help, but some flaws are unfixable02:11
Estel_like alck of microSd slot02:11
Estel_this damn screen02:11
japhestel_, so does mine but that's for my part 90% thanks to the stupid ui02:12
Estel_well, lack of camera lens cover I can fix with custom body02:12
Estel_same for fm transmitter, with enough will02:12
japhI'm never going to befriend it02:12
Estel_japh, qwazix is working on bringing hildon ui to N95002:12
Estel_to harmattan, as whole02:12
Estel_although, capacitive screen kills the fun02:12
japhhow much $ would you need for fixing fm transmitter for me too?02:12
Estel_japh, no chance for fixing it on board02:12
japhyeah I think I talked to him02:12
Estel_I just think about custom body, with better space usage (N950 have much free space filled with aluminum)02:13
Estel_Well, for me, N900 with mugen cover thickness is fine, so making N950 thick as that, I could easidly put 7000mAh (real) battery there02:13
Estel_and external FMTX module, cxonnected to audio out02:13
japhyou got your n950 just the other day right?02:13
Estel_with hardware switch02:13
Estel_yea, week ago, even less02:13
FIQ|n900Estel_: well, the point of N950 was N9 development02:14
Estel_already dissasembled it as much as possible and assembled again02:14
japhI didn't think they gave away devices still02:14
Estel_it's still alive :P02:14
FIQ|n900so I guess it wouldn't make any sense to have a resistive screen02:14
FIQ|n900from that PoV02:14
Estel_FIQ|n900, point of N950 was to be final product02:14
Estel_later changed t2o N902:14
Estel_with N950 batch as development02:14
ZogG_laptopjaph: don't make too much hopes on that02:14
japhzogg_laptop, on what?02:15
Estel_but you know? This game galaxy on fire they've shipped with pr1.2 is kinda fine ;)02:15
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Estel_suuure, every system looks the same02:15
japhI gave up getting n950 already when I heard about it :p02:15
Estel_it isn't Elite frontier, after all02:15
Estel_but surprised me positively02:15
ZogG_laptopjaph: so you don't ahve n950 or n9?02:15
FIQ|n900I would buy a n950 as n900 successor I guess02:16
FIQ|n900if just it was *available*02:16
Estel_FIQ|n900, jolla will probably fix that, I think02:16
FIQ|n900nokia really don't want my money lol02:16
japhzogg_laptop, no I have an n950, but I wasn't even looking for one, I was looking for buying a bunch of n900's when some random dude came along and offered me n95002:16
Estel_still, don't expect better situation with FOSS UI, than it was with N90002:16
Estel_probably worse02:16
Estel_but, maybe they will surprise us,l as said02:16
Estel_after all, it's Mer, and they submit patches to Nemo02:16
Estel_Open UI would be great, great surprise02:17
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Estel_all after all, as it's based on Mer core, Ui should be fully replaceable after all02:17
FIQ|n900Estel_: I don't expect anything better than n900, it was the ideal phone when I got it for me02:17
Estel_don't cheat ourselves, Mer is future of Open mobile, with jolla or without02:17
japhbut with foss ui we can always *make* things better02:17
FIQ|n900now it's a bit too old, but otherwise fine02:17
Estel_japh, actually, with mer, even without foss ui we can replace it02:17
japhI don't think ... exactly02:17
Estel_FIQ|n900, for me, lack RAM only02:17
Estel_things like hdmi out would be great, but still02:18
Estel_y6et, I use it every day with much pleasure02:18
FIQ|n900Estel_: I just want a n900 with better hardware :P02:18
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Estel_well, considering that Mer is real mobile linux, I'm optimistic about jolla thing02:18
Estel_FIQ|n900, sure :P02:18
ZogG_laptopEstel_: why do you want HDMI if you have serial port?02:19
Estel_well, for someone willing to spen 1000 USD or so,it is hard, but possible, to get chip with 1GB ram, and solder it on infra red soldering station02:19
Estel_got to wikipedia, and read what hdmi is02:19
Estel_it's like comparing grapples to oranges02:19
japhwhat exactly is it that makes it - at least - take an effort to get good old fremantle going on the n950? Were things so damn hardware specific already from the start?02:19
Estel_japh, sure, too closed02:20
Estel_Cordia is effort to bring hildon ui on top of mer, but I doubt cordia will be ever in usable state02:20
Estel_other than that. N950 hardware adaptation for Mer isn't finished, and msot likely, never will02:20
Estel_things like GPs don't work02:20
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Estel_say hi to elop02:20
japhwell what I really would want is, you know, X, and then I'm free to pick wm myself02:20
befordim not Elop02:21
Estel_it was on it's way to be 100% hardware compatible, but february elopcalypse come02:21
Estel_beford, haha02:21
FIQ|n900beford: lol02:21
FIQ|n900bad timing :P02:21
Estel_made me literally lol02:21
ZogG_laptopif you put all ports and 3 usb and microsd and 3 sim cards and keybaord and ir and bigger battery and good video camera and more and more.... just buy a fucking laptop and good canon/nickon/what-evercamera02:21
Estel_whatever rambling it is, I don't understand anything from this 3 liner sentence02:22
Estel_sounds like rant, though02:22
ZogG_laptopyou can't make everything in one piece and expect it to be portable and be best in everything02:22
Estel_of course You can. ever heard about modularity?02:22
Estel_when I wan't serial port, I carry with me usb -to-serial adaptor02:22
Estel_in other situations, I don't02:22
Estel_same for small, portable, travel keyboard02:22
Estel_or mouse02:22
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you can't replace good camera with phone!02:22
Estel_yea? check 808 pureview02:23
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Estel_as for compact02:23
Estel_as for DLSR, no one trioes to, as it wouldn't be too portable02:23
ZogG_laptopEstel_: it's not like 7D anyway =)02:23
Estel_but no technical reasons preventing it02:23
japhthis is also a problem that we doesn't share the very same needs :p02:23
ZogG_laptopthat' the point02:23
Estel_again, grapples and oranges02:23
Estel_with mirrors in DLSR camera, it's technical constrain02:23
ZogG_laptopif you want good camera keep being camre without phone and opposite02:23
japhI don't want no camera. I want my vim running faster02:23
Estel_in sitrruations You mention, it's flaw of stupid design decisions02:24
Estel_physical again mental constraints02:24
ZogG_laptopjaph: how vim can run slow on n900?02:24
FIQ|n900i don't care about a camera02:24
Estel_You're constrained mentally02:24
FIQ|n900my n900 could have no camera at all02:24
Estel_we talk about things perfectly possible physically02:24
FIQ|n900I wouldn't complain02:24
FIQ|n900the only part of the camera I use is the light :D02:24
japhzogg_laptop, not sure how to answer that, except that the culprit is its syntax hl02:24
ZogG_laptopFIQ|n900: Estel_ the camera is example. if you want something professional it can;t be combine02:24
Estel_very bad example, as it's physical constraint02:24
Estel_where mobile computer is mental one02:25
japhfiq|n900, heh that's true - that have been really useful02:25
Estel_no physical constraints to make it mobile computer02:25
ZogG_laptopEstel_: battery is physical. ports is physical, chips and modules is physical02:25
Estel_it's just about design decisions, every required bits are available and possible02:25
Estel_wrong, as always02:25
ZogG_laptopenlight me02:25
Estel_I can put bigger battery if I want, but no one forces me02:25
Estel_I can carry with me usb-to-whatever adaptors, but again, not required02:25
ZogG_laptopEstel_: bigger battery is bigger size. you talked about carrying desktop around before, right?02:26
Estel_every thing needed to make it 99,99% as usable as desktrop computer i s physically possible without making it behemor02:26
GeneralAntillesWrong is clearly the incorrect word to be using.02:26
Estel_for DLSR camera, it's simply matter of mirrors and big space required02:26
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you can use usb to anything with n9/n950/android or anything02:26
GeneralAntillesBusiness decisions are what's involved.02:26
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Estel_GeneralAntilles, sure, but not alwys. lack of microSd on N9 and N950 is hardly business decision02:26
ZogG_laptopEstel_: not anything but you can patch kernel and make drivers02:27
Estel_unless every design decision is business decision too02:27
Estel_ZogG, sure. But for hdmi, I can't02:27
ZogG_laptopEstel_: 64 gb phone is enuf.02:27
Estel_before You ask, no, You can't do usb -> hdmi02:27
Estel_ZogG, 512 kb ram is enough02:27
ZogG_laptopEstel_: hdmi reqieres place. and yes it's pitty we don't ahve it02:27
Estel_I said You're typical windows user ;)02:27
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ZogG_laptopEstel_: man, just stop being personal!!!!!02:28
Estel_we don't lack available place.02:28
Estel_it's no personal02:28
Estel_it's about You putting constraints on mentality02:28
ZogG_laptopEstel_: what distro u use?02:28
Estel_who Yuo are to decide that overpriced 64 GB N9 is enough?02:28
Estel_15 years ago 512 kb RAM was enough for gates02:28
nox-640 k02:28
ZogG_laptoplet's just get over with measuring pineses if you want02:28
Estel_"no one will ever need more than 512 kb of RAM"02:28
japhin the meantime we can get 64*16 n90002:28
ZogG_laptopEstel_: what distro do you use?02:28
japhhmm. :) 64+1602:28
Estel_japh, on N900, we can use SDXC too02:29
Estel_32GB internaL02:29
Estel_+ whatever card size02:29
Estel_SDXC is up to 2000 GB IIRC ;)02:29
japhoh fuck is it 32 internal? :D I forgot02:29
ZogG_laptopEstel_: but do you really use all this space?02:29
Estel_well, bill gates said that no one will ever need 512 kb of ram ever, and now zog tell us that we don't need more than 64gb in overpriced N902:29
japhI do not *now* but the n9 was filled up instantly02:29
ZogG_laptopfor few movies and for music and data it's enuf02:30
Estel_N950 is 16 GB02:30
Estel_it's "enuf" for You, which doesn't mean it's good design decisions objectively02:30
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Estel_it's again about beinbg mentally constrained02:30
Estel_no loss in putting damn microSd slot there02:30
GeneralAntillesCosts money02:30
GeneralAntillesAdds to support costs02:30
Estel_GeneralAntilles, seriously02:30
GeneralAntillesChanges your software implementation.02:30
ZogG_laptopjaph: i have 64 gb n9 and i have enuf place for few movies and music and personal data. and i don't make movie collection or music collection on phone. i simply put what i will use in near future02:30
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japhwhat are the choices if I'd want to extended the storage for the n950? stick + usb adapter? :/02:31
Estel_you know as good as me, that microSd slot is neglible cost, considering software support too02:31
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Estel_japh, yea02:31
GeneralAntillesNo, actually, it's not.02:31
ZogG_laptopEstel_: so you ignored my question, what linux do you use? if you call me windows user (as it can be something bad actually)02:31
Estel_GeneralAntilles, for whole device designing costs?02:31
Estel_lol, I couldn't find revelance, but, whatever. I use Debian, aptosid, ubuntu, LinuxCNC, MAemo... ;)02:31
Estel_also, windows XP, when needed02:32
Estel_now, how is it rellevant to You thinking like gates did?02:32
ZogG_laptopEstel_: debian ok, UBUNTU? and you call me windows user?02:32
DocScrutinizer05uSD holder is cheap, uSD interface is a PITA sometimes02:32
befordew windows02:32
DocScrutinizer05it gave us glamo, on GTA0202:32
Estel_zog, Your ignorance is showing as always02:32
Estel_ubuntu with unity kicked off and LXDe, for example02:32
ZogG_laptopEstel_: gates thought of making business and he succeeded02:32
Estel_is quite comparable to debian02:32
Estel_thats why people like freemangordon worked on ubuntu for N90002:32
Estel_zog, north korean leader also suceed. Or chinbese ones.02:33
japhestel_, you live in ... poland?02:33
Estel_which doesn't mean it's justified.02:33
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i'm gentoo user for past ± 7 years. so don't teach me please =)02:33
Estel_japh, yea ;)02:33
Estel_zog, still you're ignorant02:33
DocScrutinizer05what a trollfest02:33
Estel_like arguing that ubuntu is < or > than other distro, lol02:33
* DocScrutinizer05 waves at GeneralAntilles02:34
Estel_it's like "my e-penis" is longer than Your"02:34
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you can call me whatever, we had arguments before and majority decided already not once who is just about "talking"02:34
GeneralAntillesWhat's new, DocScrutinizer05?02:34
Estel_DocScrutinizer, uSd interface is pita, but for company like Nokia designing device,m You agree that it's hardly roadblock?02:34
DocScrutinizer05job eating me02:34
ZogG_laptopEstel_: you started by assuming something. i just went down to your level =)02:34
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, employment is good, though, right?02:35
Estel_zog, majority seems to not care about Your capacitive screens or whatever fanboyism. we're discussing here, in civilized way, you're the only one shouting and trolling around ;)02:35
ZogG_laptopEstel_: it's again your opinion02:35
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: depends, probably they would have had the 2ndry function on SoC free for mmc interface02:35
Estel_if You don't liek to continue this discussion, simply leave zog, we won't miss You much02:35
ZogG_laptopand your opinion is only yours02:35
Estel_and Your e-penis is still longer?;)02:35
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i prefer #maemo when how it was way before you actually =)02:35
Estel_whatever, EOT :)02:35
Estel_You were mostly unknown, before post-CA drama, so it's still pointless discussion02:36
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: atm it feels like I'm going to continue tomorrow where I left here02:36
GeneralAntillesNix the ad hominems, please.02:36
Estel_japh, how do you knew about country?:)02:36
ZogG_laptopEstel_: if you didn't know me it doesn't mean anything =)02:36
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, debate is stimulating to the brain. ;)02:36
Estel_sure, nice for You. EOT, yes?02:36
ZogG_laptopEstel_: FYITA?02:37
Estel_japh, still here?02:37
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, I've heard you're also optimistic about Jolla02:37
befordslashdot is getting really slow to catch news02:37
Estel_slashdot is passe ;)02:37
japhestel_, your name looked like it couldv'e origin from there somewhere02:37
japh(I'm half czech)02:38
ZogG_laptopyou are just full of sht and talking a lot, and doing nothing. simple as that. at least finish your N900 cover mod before asking for money and than talk. =)02:38
Estel_ah, I see :)02:38
ZogG_laptopgood that u see02:38
ZogG_laptoptalking and watching?02:38
ZogG_laptopsomething new02:38
Estel_lol, troll fest?02:38
ZogG_laptopEstel_: and you are the winner02:38
Estel_You know that i'm talking with japh, don't stick you e-penis to our discussion :)02:38
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ZogG_laptopEstel_: please tell 5 mre times "e-penis"02:39
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: I'm just worrying about my neck: 60 minutes phone congerence, with a normal phone and typing on keyboard during that02:39
DocScrutinizer05conference even02:39
Estel_Well, i'm going to maintain my projects the way I like it, and nice people arer supporting - also via donations and preoprders - it much. It seems to me, that you're little offensive vs allo people involved in custom body project for N90002:39
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, go buy a headset.02:39
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders taking gaffa tape with hin02:39
ZogG_laptopEstel_: right, scams are scams =)02:39
GeneralAntillesBoth of you shut up and move on.02:40
Estel_well, kinda miserably pathetic from your side - attacking someone's project, cause Your troll ego "lost" capacitive screen/mobile computers feature discussion02:40
ZogG_laptopEstel_: want to buy mega app for only 500$ that would enlarge your e-penis?02:40
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: I got several headsets, but the phone has no receptacle ;-P02:40
Estel_not to mention that it's comparing grapples to oranges...02:40
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, ah, one of those. Oops.02:40
Estel_but accusing someone of scam just for the fun of it is kind aout of line, even for miserable childish troll like You.02:40
GeneralAntillesLast warning Estel_ and ZogG_laptop.02:40
Estel_I suggest You to get some deep breaths, and go for a walk02:40
DocScrutinizer05hey,  ow the fun starts :-D02:41
ZogG_laptopEstel_: i didn't lose. i had my opinion. but you was fanatic. and even better i win. coz most today phones have capacitive screen02:41
Estel_well, I think this miserable quotation ends this discussion? :D02:41
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Estel_It would be act of mercy to actually respond more - everyone saw enough to judge on it's own.02:42
ZogG_laptopGeneralAntilles: i'll just continue watching tv-show. i just couldn't stay aside with fanatic arguments and when someone turns in personal labeling. sorry02:42
Estel_I wish You startiong, one day, a project that will gather people support, including monetary one. After all, it's all about contributing to Community02:42
GeneralAntillesTrolling is an activity which thrives on attention.02:43
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Estel_You have my guarantee, that I won't accuse You of scam just for the fun of it, or because I don't like your style of writing/arguments/whatever ;)02:43
Estel_Good night and have fun02:43
Estel_japh, continuing our (more productive) discussion, we must meet on beer one day :D02:44
japhestel_, heh that could be sooner than you'd think02:45
Estel_why, visiting Poland soon?02:45
japhI'm going to czech in october with my parents and they've decided to stay for little over a month - in the meantime I've a few conferences to attend but then I'll likely be bored02:46
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Estel_ah, I see, so you don't live there everyday?02:46
japhoh no, I live in sweden02:46
japh5 billion options for firefox's ./configure02:48
Estel_I see. Well, my love interest travels to Czech republic from time to time, due to studies and work02:48
japhI'm going to be pissed if this doesn't compile on first try :p02:48
Estel_./configure hell02:48
japhI'm awfuly bad at where places and countries are relative to eachother, I just now that poland is down there somewhere not too far away02:49
japhknow, even02:49
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Estel_yes, it's little to the northeast02:53
Estel_more north than east02:53
Estel_have border with czech republic02:53
Estel_and don't worry, i'm equally bad at describing countries surrounding sweden ;)02:54
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LaoLang_coolhello, how to move the cursor with keyboard in busybox? doesn't it support readline feature, for example, <ESC>b move backward one word02:56
robbiethe1stleft/right arrow key?02:59
japhestel_, hehe great :)02:59
japhlaolang_cool, no, grab bash and make yourself an inputrc02:59
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LaoLang_coolrobbiethe1st, it's one charactor movement, too slow...03:02
LaoLang_cooljaph, ahh...03:02
japhlaolang_cool, n900 or something else?03:03
LaoLang_cooljaph, maemo of course :)03:03
japhurk bash3 then03:04
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LaoLang_cooljaph, thank you. doesn't want to install another shell though ;p03:05
japhyou can not seriously want to use busyboxs ash03:06
japhI have already provided you with a working inputrc here03:06
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LaoLang_cooljaph, I like busybox because it's simple and built-in :)03:10
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Estel_japh, I understand him - while I know why bash > ash for msot people, for n900, ash suits my needs. everything, that can be done in bash, can be done in ash too, although using different methods, sometimes07:35
Estel_it's conveinent to have same, enchanced (as in busybox-power) shell both in normal; usage, and in, lets say, recovery console, though07:36
Estel_consistency between scripts, languages, etc07:36
Estel_IMO, bash on n900 is rather about conveinence for not changing habits, than requiment to achieve something07:36
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DocScrutinizer05busybox and simple??? :-O09:03
DocScrutinizer05retarded is the term09:03
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils09:03
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: please do `ps aux` in messybox! then come back here again and tell me messybox is simple and sufficient and can do everything09:05
Macerimessage is lame09:06
Macerend of sms my ass09:06
DocScrutinizer05ok ok, it's not exactly about messybox but about the missing unix tools, but that's what messybox is all about09:06
keriosudo ping09:06
keriojust... fucking sudo ping09:06
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DocScrutinizer05or tar09:07
DocScrutinizer05you gonna "WTF?!? tar doesn't know gz???"09:07
keriomy tar is gnu tar09:08
DocScrutinizer05or a simple ls -l with sane format09:08
DocScrutinizer05or basically anything * --help ; many thanks messybox!09:09
keriocan't we just put the proper ash there?09:12
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# busybox ls --help 2>&1|wc -l09:12
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# ls --help 2>&1|wc -l09:12
kerioand real tools?09:12
kerioor does stuff rely on busyboxisms?09:12
DocScrutinizer05some stuff in user init (xinitrc or whatever) actually is said to rely on messyboxisms09:12
keriomessyboxisms or ashisms?09:13
DocScrutinizer05so it's been a fatal idea to set *user's* default shell to bash+unix-utils09:13
kerioi guess i'm just lucky then09:13
keriomy default shell is bash + unix-utils09:13
DocScrutinizer05this is info from PR1.0.109:14
DocScrutinizer05nfc if it still applies nowadays, Nokia might have fixed the scripts09:14
kerio...wait, nokia actually fixed a bug regarding the unix side? :o09:14
DocScrutinizer05the initscripts been constantly augmented for every PR09:15
DocScrutinizer05with very first PR versions we had no hook for bootmenu09:15
DocScrutinizer05for example09:15
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DocScrutinizer05and for the life of mine I couldn't recall what exactly been the problem with busyboxisms in initscripts. Sth like the script relying on a particular very unusual output of some messybox builtin cmd like ls or mount or dunno what09:17
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DocScrutinizer05so kerio you could do mankind a favour and test if your device will actually come up with mesybox removed09:21
keriohah, i'll pass09:22
kerioi like my n900 best when it actually boots09:23
DocScrutinizer05resp check  how many of the symlinks like "/bin/mount -> busybox" are still in place and needed to boot your device09:24
keriowell at best i would've tried just putting bash in /bin/sh09:24
DocScrutinizer05that's no problem at all09:25
DocScrutinizer05see my above pasts09:25
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# version09:25
DocScrutinizer05bash: version: command not found09:25
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# which bash09:26
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: ls -l $(echo $PATH|sed "s/:/ /g")|grep busybox09:30
kerioyes, i am aware of how much shit busybox does09:31
DocScrutinizer05(I didn't use proper `find` command on purpose)09:31
DocScrutinizer05however many of those are neutered on my system, by /bin/gnu/*09:33
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# echo $PATH09:34
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# which ls09:35
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/|wc -l09:41
DocScrutinizer05...and I just notice diff and siblings isn't optified :-S09:42
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DocScrutinizer05cmp diff diff3 md5sum.textutils rgrep sdiff updatedb09:44
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: do you have something in /usr/bin/X11?09:53
DocScrutinizer05you bet I have09:53
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kerioi don't even have the directory :c09:54
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DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# ls -la /usr/bin/X1109:55
DocScrutinizer05lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1 2009-10-30 12:29 /usr/bin/X11 -> .09:55
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DocScrutinizer05wtf is THAT?09:56
keriooh lol09:56
keriothat's cheating!09:56
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DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# /usr/bin/X11/10:01
DocScrutinizer05Display all 759 possibilities? (y or n)10:01
DocScrutinizer05(the <tab<<tab> didn't print ;-D)10:01
jonwiltime to start on something I should have started a week ago, my project to document as much of the N900 dbus interfaces as possible10:08
DocScrutinizer05time to start my daywork10:09
DocScrutinizer05...after headdesking a little about all the non-optified stuff in /usr/bin10:10
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DocScrutinizer05like 31648 2010-07-01 11:35 rtcom-messaging-ui.launch   1012968 2011-08-07 14:23 osso_pdfviewer.launch...10:11
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DocScrutinizer05313328 2010-06-08 13:12 osso_rss_feed_reader.launch10:12
DocScrutinizer05harly used in early boot, any of those10:12
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DocScrutinizer05time to look into maemo-optify-* and how to use it10:20             maemo-optify-make-mountbind.sh10:20
sambo7hi,just bricked my N900-did a nandtest /dev/mtd5 in terminal - now N900 is unresponsive -doesn't start, no charging via usb,etc - anything I can do?10:21
jonwilyou might need to reflash10:22
jonwilwhich bit depends on just what /dev/mtd5 actually ponits to10:22
sambo7device doesn't start-no led showing up, when connected to usb/power10:23
freemangordoncoldflash ;)10:23
vi__wow, you fucked it good.10:24
vi__also, coldfalsh.10:24
sambo7nothing happens,when I hit the power button10:24
sambo7how to coldflash10:24
freemangordonwith the flasher10:24
freemangordonits tricky, but it works10:25
sambo7fs was corrupted-my config was gone & I was looking for a way to restore my yappari.conf10:25
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freemangordonflash it, use your favourite serch engine for howto coldflash n90010:26
DocScrutinizer05mtd5: 0fb40000 00020000 "rootfs"10:26
sambo7had some ext3 errors in dmesg...tripped over this command...actually I wanted to do some fsck & e2fsck,but unfortunately I did that shit:-(10:27
freemangordonhmm, coldflash not needed then10:27
DocScrutinizer05you should be fine with normal reflash10:27
freemangordonsambo7: remove the battery10:27
freemangordonstart the flasher10:27
freemangordonconnect USB cable with keyboard open10:27
freemangordoninsert the battery while holding "u" on keyboard10:28
sambo7ok,will try that-was wondering if I completely f*** up my beloved device, bacause no response at all10:28
DocScrutinizer05haha my /var/log/maemo-optify-boottime.log is epic10:28
sambo7ok,will follow this procedure & see what happens10:28
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jonwilholy crap bluez has a lot of interesting dbus-related info10:29
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: you probably missed:  -k, --keep            Restore existing contents after test10:30
DocScrutinizer05in nandtest ;-D10:30
DocScrutinizer05btw nandtest actually has potential to fry your device for good10:30
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jonwilhow can it do that?10:31
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: you don't want me to explain that here10:31
jonwilyeah :)10:31
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* jonwil makes note not to use nandtest then10:31
jonwilto be on the safe side :)10:31
jonwilsomehow I dont think I need to document org.bluez.* in my N900 dbus guide :P10:32
DocScrutinizer05  -p, --passes          Number of passes10:32
DocScrutinizer05RM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# stress --help10:34
DocScrutinizer05`stress' imposes certain types of compute stress on your system10:34
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DocScrutinizer05anyway, sambo7 good luck!10:39
sambo7my internet connection was on vacation-will try to reflash my N900 now10:40
sambo7just hope I didn't fry it10:40
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: if flashing doesn't work, it's most likely a problem of your PC10:40
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: nah, your device is fine10:40
DocScrutinizer05just needs new rootfs10:40
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: see:10:41
infoboti heard maemo-flashing is
sambo7let's hope so-thank you for your help...will bive feedback as soon as it's running again-hope so10:41
DocScrutinizer05use a linux PC, don't forget to blacklist cdc_phonet!10:41
sambo7have arch running parallel to win710:42
sambo7will have a try...thx10:42
DocScrutinizer05(cdc_phonet) seems it needs blacklisting on virtually any arbitrary distro nowadays10:42
sambo7should show up when I do a lsmod,when N900 by os?10:43
sambo7n900 recognised by os10:43
DocScrutinizer05yep, after first flashing failure it will show up in lsmod10:43
sambo7ok...will start reflashing now & return with feedback later10:44
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DocScrutinizer05fine! :-) you're welcome to also ask for guidance if anything doesn't work10:44
DocScrutinizer05doublecheck you download the recent version of *COMBINED*10:45
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DocScrutinizer05tagged "lastest"10:46
DocScrutinizer05latest even10:46
sambo7going through the Updating The Firmware thread right now...10:47
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DocScrutinizer05read the whole wikipage10:49
DocScrutinizer05it's a mess regarding structure, so you can't start at arbitrary headline and proceed step by step from there10:50
sambo7I guess right now I have no possibility to recover my yappari.conf?didn't do a backup of that config file...ok,will read the whole wiki, before I mess up again10:50
DocScrutinizer05.conf will probably live in your home, which will survive rootfs flashing10:51
jonwilyeah everything in /home/user will survive10:51
jonwilbut everything else including /opt and /etc will be gone10:51
DocScrutinizer05you'll need to restore all your apps from a backup10:52
sambo7before I started to mess up, my problem was that suddenly my device didn't boot correctly10:52
ShadowJKmy car charger's cable is frayed :-(10:53
kerionandtest is fun10:53
kerioi hosed my sheevaplug with that10:53
sambo7hab to after finally it booted again,all my settings were like default factory10:53
sambo7my phone book was gone,my sms/phone/yappari history was was my yappari.conf10:54
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: probably something messed up some hildon-desktop config files, and finally something 'recovered'10:54
keriowell yes, you randomly overwritten stuff in your ubifs volume that holds /10:55
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sambo7the problem was/is that yappari registration isn't working anymore10:55
kerioanyway, thumbified busybox-power ftw10:56
sambo7so without conf-file I will have to re-register,which will fail10:56
DocScrutinizer05I'm afraid your nandtest enterprise wasn't your fist nor your worst mess-up10:56
sambo7but I can live with that as long as I can debrick my beloved N90010:56
DocScrutinizer05you can debrick it10:57
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: he nandtested his rootfs10:57
keriohow can it not be the worst mess-up?10:57
sambo7till today my worst mess-up;-)10:57
DocScrutinizer05but you *might* have to reflash *VANILLA* as well, to recover your /home fs10:57
kerio...well, i suppose he could've nandtested NOLO10:57
kerioor something10:57
DocScrutinizer05kerio: nope, he didn't10:58
DocScrutinizer05if it's true that he did only test mtd510:58
DocScrutinizer05and aiui he's describing problems he had *before* he did that10:58
keriono, i mean10:58
kerioto make an even worse fuck up10:58
sambo7I nandtested mtd1-4...everything was fine, then started nandtest mtd5 and you know the result...mea culpa10:58
keriohe totally did10:59
infobotfrom memory, coldflash is and next ~200 posts, or
DocScrutinizer05now you're thoroughly fsckd10:59
kerionah, he just needs to coldflash10:59
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DocScrutinizer05he hosed CAL10:59
DocScrutinizer05worst thing you can do11:00
keriowhy is it even writable?11:00
jonwilits writable because BME writes to it11:00
keriofukken BME11:00
DocScrutinizer05now THAT will be interesting to watch if that device comes back before holiday ends11:00
keriosambo7: you're screwed11:01
sambo7I'm also curious11:01
sambo7sorry,what is CAL?11:01
jonwilCAL contains special per-device configurations11:01
jonwilincluding WiFi and Bluetooth MAC addresses11:01
DocScrutinizer05mtd1, the partition where all your basic hw config lives11:01
kerioand gsm imei?11:01
infobotwell, cal is a calendar. try $(cal 1752)11:02, it's not11:02
keriobad infobot11:02
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: you definitely need to coldflash11:02
DocScrutinizer05and with a lot of luck this will revive your device11:03
jonwilerasing CAL seems like one of the only pure-software ways to actually brick a N90011:03
kerioDocScrutinizer05: isn't CAL like... needed?11:03
keriofor stuff? and stuff?11:03
kerioi seed11:03
DocScrutinizer05for obvious reasons nobody wanted to check it so far11:03
keriosambo7: looks like you're going to be our lab rat! be proud!11:04
DocScrutinizer05actually unless you also nandtested mtd0, you might still be fine with normal flashing, sambo711:04
jonwilfirst N900 owner to hose the CAL and find out if doing it bricks the device or not :)11:04
vi__Has somone finally found a way to brick an n900?11:05
keriohmm, what's "log" (mtd2)?11:06
DocScrutinizer05nuking CAL always been known for a candidate11:06
DocScrutinizer05kerio: kernel OOPS11:06
vi__Also, what posessed you to do this?11:06
keriowhy do we need 40000 of... something for those?11:06
keriovi__: he wanted to test his nand! :D11:06
vi__WTF for?11:07
DocScrutinizer05kerio: because we love proper kernel dumps11:07
keriohrmpf :c11:07
DocScrutinizer05vi__: and he forgot to give   -k, --keep            Restore existing contents after test11:07
keriovi__: nandtest makes a destructive test by default11:07
vi__But where did he even find instructions on how to do this?11:07
kerioi did that on my sheevaplug at some point11:08
vi__Surely alarm bells must have been ringing in his head...11:08
kerioit was fun, ubifs kept trucking along for a bit11:08
vi__'danger, sambo7 .  DANGER'!11:08
kerioluckily the sheevaplug is Unbrickable©11:08
DocScrutinizer05allegedly N900 too11:09
sambo7I was a little overhasty...and didn't read the complete info on that command...since it's called nand"test"...I gave it a try without using my brain11:09
keriothe other *plugs are too, but they require a jtag board, the sheeva only needs a miniusb cable11:09
DocScrutinizer05so we'll see if that's actually true or not ;-)11:09
jonwilok, lets see who writes to the CAL via libcal11:09
DocScrutinizer05coldflash potentially *could* restore a default CAL11:10
DocScrutinizer05hell, even a standard flash could, as long as NOLO in mtd0 is still alive11:10
sambo7does the N900 have some pins/etc. for serial connection on the inside?11:10
DocScrutinizer05under battery11:11
kerioDocScrutinizer05: is the irreplaceable data in CAL actually replaceable then?11:11
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keriosambo7: you don't need it11:11
DocScrutinizer05but you usually don't need them even for hardcore recovery11:11
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keriowhen coldflashing, you load a partial NOLO in ram and you flash the actual NOLO11:11
kerioand then you flash the rest11:11
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sambo7will start with cold flash soon11:12
DocScrutinizer05kerio: ram NOLO might not only flash nand NOLO but also restore CAL, if nand NOLO needs that for coming up11:13
DocScrutinizer05or it doesn't and sambo7is screwed11:13
DocScrutinizer05or NOLO doesn't need CAL at all, just friendly suggestions in there11:13
DocScrutinizer05nobody but some Nokians knows11:13
DocScrutinizer05but since sambo7says his device is a complete brick, I assume NOLO needs a proper CAL to come up11:14
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: check your PC syslog after plugging in N90011:14
DocScrutinizer05might have some warning/fatal msgs from NOLO11:15
freemangordonsambo7: you also need to recall your HW revision11:15
DocScrutinizer05or even no NOLO hello-world at all11:15
freemangordoncoldflashing needs it11:15
DocScrutinizer05oh yes, that too, freemangordon11:15
DocScrutinizer05good point11:16
DocScrutinizer05one of the things stored in CAL11:16
DocScrutinizer05which makes me think coldflashing actually doesn't need CAL and probably restores it11:16
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jonwilmy god this grep of the N900 QT source code is gonna take forever :P11:18
keriohm, how do i see my hw revision?11:21
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conredkerio: cat /proc/cpuinfo shows a Revision number11:27
keriorev 3?11:28
keriois that the hw revision?11:28
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Palicat /proc/component_version11:32
Palihere is HW rev11:32
jonwilPali, get any further with the prolog stuff yet?11:33
PaliI did not played with it11:33
jonwilI take it nothing more from any of the various Nokia things you emailed about (e.g. BME temprature calculation)11:33
Palijonwil, I wrote steps which maybe working for replacing jack bias predicate in that binary plc file11:34
Palijonwil, n9 bme dev wrote me that he try to look/ask for n900 bme code11:34
Palialso he forwared my email to other nokia dev11:34
jonwilHopefully someone can find (and get permission to share) the math formula(s) for reading data from those ADCs and converting it into whatever libbmeipc and hald-addon-bme want11:35
jonwilwe dont need (or want) all of BME, just the math formulas (and maybe the stuff for reading BME CAL area if its needed)11:36
freemangordonPali: what? bme source code? I won't believe it even if i see it :P11:36
PaliI asked for battery temp formula11:36
freemangordonaah, ok11:36
jonwilbtw pali, will the BME replacement thats being worked on be usable to replace BME in MeeGo/Mer/Nemo/etc?11:36
Paliand dev wrote that he tried to look into bme source code for that11:37
freemangordonjonwil: should be11:37
Palijonwil, it will be in kernel, so yes11:37
freemangordonit is partially based on mer's libbmeipc11:37
Paliif nokia did not created more stupid apps which depends on bme, then there will be no problem11:37
jonwilok, thats good, that means one less binary blob needed for open-os-on-n90011:38
freemangordonPali: they depend on libbmeipc11:38
freemangordonnot BME itself11:38
Palijonwil, charging battery is in kernel, so userspace do not need to know anything about charging...11:38
jonwilonly things on meego that depend on bme would be the pulseaudio bits11:38
jonwiland someone said they are going to replace those :)11:38
Palifreemangordon, that bme stuff can be develed from meego/mer/... when kernel driver will be loaded11:39
Palijonwil, pulseaudio bits are open in meego11:39
jonwilnot all of em11:39
Paliand now it does not depends on bme11:39
jonwilThats definatly NOT open source11:40
freemangordonbecause it depends on libbmeipc, which is a different beast11:40
jonwiland definatly for N900 MeeGo11:40
jonwilThose modules contan all the secret stuff11:40
Paliwtf?? this is not in maemo...11:40
jonwilNokia rewrote Pulseaudio for MeeGo11:41
jonwilto put all the secret bits into much smaller modules11:41
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jonwilso they could open a lot more of the PulseAudio stuff11:41
jonwilhence the creation of pulseaudio-modules-nokia11:41
jonwilpulseaudio-modules-meego contains the rest of what was in the Fremantle PA closed bits11:41
Paliother question, is that modules needed?11:41
Paliand what are doing?11:41
jonwilsomeone said they were working on bringing the latest pulseaudio to MeeGo/Mer/Nemo/etc11:42
jonwiland had knowledge of what to do about those modules11:42
Palijonwil, ok11:42
Palitry to remeber that person11:42
Palijonwil, for prolog stuff, see:
sambo7sorry for interrupting...was offline for a while...if I need hw rev. for coldflash,how do I find out when device is inaccessible?underneath the battery?11:43
jonwilit was in #mer or #nemomobile IIRC11:43
Paliif you still have swi prolog working, you can try to edit that binary plc file11:43
jonwilso you could scan the chanlogs for those 2 channels for the pulseaudio discussion11:43
jonwiland yes pulseaudio-modules-nokia does depend on libbmeipc11:44
jonwilfor the bme battery temp reading (I think xprot needs it)11:44
Palijonwil, that link is for N9/N95011:44
Palinot for N90011:44
zeq1maybe we can RE the secret bits?11:44
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: alas afaik hw-version is nowhere printed11:44
jonwilno, thats for N9xx11:44
jonwilwhich is for all 3 devices11:44
jonwilthere is a section for N90011:45
jonwilone for N9/N95011:45
jonwiland one for all 311:45
jonwilwhich has that in it11:45
jonwiland the PowerVR bits11:45
jonwiland some other stuff thats the same between both11:45
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: jonwil: freemangordon: could you help out sambo7 a bit? I'm afk now11:46
zeq1if the pulseaudio modules are smaller on MeeGo it's more viable to work out what they do through disassembly, although I'm sure they have been stripped of symbols.11:46
jonwilyeah I will help where I can11:46
jonwilthey are smaller but its still complex to reverse engineer11:47
jonwilaudio algorithms are not exactly easy to follow :)11:47
Palisambo7, I do not know how to get hw revision11:47
Paliwhen device is off11:47
jonwilnor do I11:47
DocScrutinizer05try 210111:47
sambo7how many hw rev are there?11:48
Palibut nolo/xloader is same for all 21xx 22xx 23xx and 24xx11:48
sambo7could try one after another11:48
jonwilright now though I am going to finish my work on documenting all this dbus stuff, then later I might work on my replacements for libcal, sysinfo, bluetooth-cal script and wl1251-cal that could be used (once BME is gone) to replace all those binary blobs for MeeGo/Mer/Nemo11:48
Paliand other 2yxx have other xloader/nolo code11:48
jonwilwell not replacing sysinfo, eliminating the need for it11:48
Palisambo7, try 210111:48
sambo7can screw up my N900 that it already is,I guess11:48
sambo7cannot I mean11:48
DocScrutinizer05there aren't many hw diffs afaik11:49
Palispecifing HW revision for coldflashing is needed only for flasher-3.5 to know which NOLO version will be sent from FIASCO image11:49
Paliand coldflashing does not erase CAL11:49
jonwilthen that work could be changed by someone with kernel know-how to make the bluetooth and wlan bits work over standard interfaces11:49
Paliso after NOLO will start it send correct HW rev11:49
DocScrutinizer05unless CAL is nuked ;-D11:49
jonwiland also used to replace those same bits in CSSU11:50
jonwilbut dbus first11:50
Palijonwil, nice :-)11:50
jonwilThe plan basically is to take the open cal read code and turn it into a clone of all the read functions of libcal11:50
jonwili.e. libcal without the write bits11:51
jonwiland to write something to do bluetooth CAL11:51
jonwildo it without using sysinfo11:51
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jonwiland to clone wl1251-cal11:51
Paliread only cal parser already exists11:51
Palisee calvaria project11:51
jonwilyes I know11:51
sambo7haven't used irc before...can I see a history of that chat later?or do I have to copy & paste?sorry for asking:-(11:51
jonwilthat's what I mean, take it and rewrite it so its identical API to nokia libcal11:51
jonwilyou can see the history later by reading the chanlog11:52
jonwilwhich is linked in the top11:52
sambo7ok,thank you...will have to continue debricking in the evening-don't have a data-flat here...will continue later with a flat11:53
DocScrutinizer05Chanlog: |11:53
kerioPali: sambo7 nandtested everything :D11:54
jonwilmaking calvaria identical to nokia libcal will help when writing things that will run on Fremantle with Nokia libcal and also on MeeGo/Mer/Nemo with this new open libcal11:54
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sambo7great,will answer back in the evening...will have to detract myself now from messing up...hope a leap intio the lake will help11:56
Palijonwil, also look at project libopencal11:56
Palisambo7, ok11:56
sambo7little irritating that nandtest is not only testing...11:56
DocScrutinizer05if that friggin nandtest doesn't spit out BIG FAT WARNING, it's a PoS11:57
kerioit doesn't, no11:57
jonwilgot a link to libopencal?11:57
sambo7I guess I will remember that mess for a centuries11:57
keriothe whole of mtdtools is really not user friendly11:57
jacekowskin900 is dead11:58
keriojacekowski: don't be like that :(11:58
keriobe optimistic!11:58
sambo7@Doc...I agree11:58
vi__DocScrutinizer05: does dd spit out a big fat warning?11:58
keriovi__: badblocks does, i think11:59
kerioat least there's one in the man page11:59
vi__dd==gnu disk destroyer.11:59
DocScrutinizer05vi__: on dd thew name is the warning ;-)11:59
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Palijonwil, but this is for diablo12:00
jonwilstill a nice start12:00
jonwilThat might also be a good starting point12:00
jonwilactually no12:00
DocScrutinizer05slono long time no see12:01
jonwilDiablo device has totally different wlan chip IIRC12:01
DocScrutinizer05~seen slonopotamus12:01
infobotslonopotamus <~slonopota@> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 59d 14h 17s ago, saying: 'DocScrutinizer51: you're killing all fun'.12:01
keriothat's true, yeah12:01
Paliwhat did you killed??12:01
kerioall fun!!!12:02
vi__ALL THE FUN.12:02
DocScrutinizer05Chanlog: |12:02
vi__~DocScrutinizer05 is killing all fun12:02
infobotvi__: okay12:02
sambo7If I'm not able to recover, my N900 will end up as a souvenir on my wall & a kick in my a..12:03
jonwilok, I will use libopencal and calvaria and produce something that is (for reading at least) 100% identical to N900 libcal12:03
sambo7not as bad a killing your N90012:03
vi__~seen slonopotamus12:03
infobotslonopotamus <~slonopota@> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 59d 14h 2m 20s ago, saying: 'DocScrutinizer51: you're killing all fun'.12:03
DocScrutinizer05~ DocScrutinizer05 is <reply>see DocScrutinizer12:03
infobot...but docscrutinizer05 is already something else...12:03
Palijonwil, ok12:03
DocScrutinizer05~ no, DocScrutinizer05 is <reply>see DocScrutinizer12:03
infobotI think you lost me on that one, DocScrutinizer0512:03
jonwilWont try to get writing working as I dont want to be the one testing it12:03
DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, DocScrutinizer05 is <reply>see DocScrutinizer12:03
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0512:03
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DocScrutinizer05~lock DocScrutinizer0512:04
infobotlocking factoid docscrutinizer05, DocScrutinizer0512:04
jonwili.e. getting writing code wrong and hosing my N900 :P12:04
vi__DocScrutinizer05: lame, you are killing fun12:04
Palijonwil, writing can be tested in qemu12:04
DocScrutinizer05~ DocScrutinizer06 is <reply>see DocScrutinizer12:04
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay12:04
DocScrutinizer05~lock DocScrutinizer0612:04
infobotlocking factoid docscrutinizer06, DocScrutinizer0512:04
jonwilI dont have qemu going on my SB dev setup12:04
jonwilplus we dont need writing12:04
Palijonwil, qemu from madde12:05
jonwilI dont have qemu going at all12:05
vi__sambo7: If you have totally hosed your n900 you can still sell it.  The N900 is so badass even broken ones will fetch at least $50.12:05
Paliyes, why is writing support needed?12:05
jonwiland dont want to mess around getting it going12:05
DocScrutinizer05~ DocScrutinizer0512:05
infobot[docscrutinizer] jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko12:05
infobotfrom memory, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko12:05
keriobut if he's joerg, why is he docscrutinizer?12:05
vi__kerio: That is like his IRL name.12:06
jonwilOn Fremantle (where things do need writing), we keep using Nokia libcal as-is (and nokia libcal-dev) and on Meego/Mer/Nemo, we can ship the open libcal so we dont have to ship as many binary blobs12:06
kerioso? not l33t enough?12:06
kerioit's a cool acronym12:06
infoboti guess joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer12:06
DocScrutinizer05~seen joerg12:07
infobotDocScrutinizer05: i haven't seen 'joerg'12:07
sambo7@vi_...wouldn't sell it...will keep-wiil serve me as a warning12:07
DocScrutinizer05/ns info joerg12:07
vi__~seen assface lake12:07
infobotvi__: i haven't seen 'assface lake'12:07
vi__~seen a woman naked12:07
infoboti haven't seen 'a woman naked', vi__12:07
keriooh you12:08
jonwilmy god qtmobility has some usefull info on some otherwise undocumented dbus things :)12:08
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sambo7is there a device running linux with better hw than the N900/N950?12:12
sambo7 with a keyboard?12:12
StyXman_sambo7: besides the few android phones with keybs (technically, android is linux, and wiyh a lot of effort you can port anything), I don't think so12:14
sambo7was thinking about all devices but android ones;-)12:16
edheldilhopefully they complete the Jolla , but given the state of patent wars, I wonder ....12:16
zeq1freemangordon: As I mentioned yesterday, the reason Nokia used 2.6.0 as the minimum kernel version for glibc was because the old qemu versions available for SB do not support the syscalls available in 2.6.28.  Therefore I'm porting the SB QEMU patches to the current Debian QEMU 1.0 and 1.1.x releases, and creating an updated cputransp devkit.12:17
vi__zeq1: You are a mcahine,12:21
infobotvi__ meant: zeq1: You are a machine,12:21
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Palisambo7, did you alredy try to coldflash?12:22
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freemangordonzeq1: ok12:23
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jonwilzeq1: will your work mean that we can bump up the kernel version in libc to 2.6.28 or whatever?12:25
jonwili.e. libc for CSSU12:25
zeq1that's the idea, yes12:25
zeq1right now the SDK is holding it back12:25
zeq1the kernel is actually more capable than the qemu in sb12:26
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zeq1I'm having to effectively re-write the patches since the code has changed quite a lot, but I should have it working later today.12:26
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vi__You ran a nandtest while on vacation?12:31
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freemangordonvi__: now, that's an obbsession :D12:33
sambo7@jecokowski...where do you reside?I'm on vacation in Poland...maybe you could come around & help me out:-)12:33
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freemangordonzeq1: if you fix "$package/DEBIAN exists but is not a directory" I will owe you a beer12:35
freemangordoninstall: `debian/libnspr4/DEBIAN' exists but is not a directory12:36
freemangordondh_makeshlibs: command returned error code 25612:36
freemangordonmake: *** [binary-arch] Error 112:36
freemangordonanyone? ^^^12:36
zeq1freemangordon: what's that from?12:37
freemangordondifferent packages12:37
freemangordonthis one is from microb-engine12:37
freemangordonhappens from time to time, packaging with "exists but..." error12:38
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freemangordons/packaging/packaging fails/12:38
infobotfreemangordon meant: happens from time to time, packaging fails with "exists but..." error12:38
freemangordonsomething with debhelper, qemu, NFC12:38
freemangordonBUT IT DRIVES ME MAAAAD12:39
zeq1maybe new qemu will help, although it doesn't sound like it's the problem here to me12:39
zeq1debhelper could be12:39
freemangordonzeq1: i think it is qemu12:40
zeq1we'll see if the new version fixes it12:40
zeq1you could meanwhile try upgrading your debian-etch devkit?12:40
zeq1the devkits are all distributed as x86 binaries12:41
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zeq1from scratchbox.org12:41
zeq1just download the latest version and unpack it into your /opt/scratchbox/devkits12:42
zeq1after moving the old version out of the way12:42
freemangordoni think i have the latest12:42
freemangordonsome time ago i checked that12:43
zeq1I remember when we looked the other day you had 1 version older than the version I have12:43
zeq1I'd better get back to hacking ;)12:44
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freemangordonzeq1: upgraded to scratchbox-devkit-debian (1.0.12), lets see12:52
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zeq1freemangordon: absolute crazyness. I was attempting to use the documented process for developing scratchbox devkits using the etch build environemnt, but I needed libglib-2.0-dev, so I run apt-get update; apt-get install libglib-2.0-dev, and proceded to break the enviroment when the updated libc6 from etch decided it couldn't complete installation as I am running on a *REAL* i386 CPU!  Using FREMANTLE_X86 instead is going bet13:55
zeq1so close...  I can't make my final link because the cs2007 i486 toolchain isn't wanting to link the libc.a from fremantle-x86 into the final executable :(13:58
zeq1looks like I'm going to have to build that x86 scratchbox toolchain13:59
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zeq1a question for all: do I make a i686 -> i486 cross-compiler as is currently supplied with scratchbox, or do i just build a i686 host compiler?14:01
zeq1what is the target arch of FREMANTLE_X86?14:01
Hurrianzeq1, if the target in the env is really i486, stick to making a cross compiler unless you want gcc to wrap as "gcc-4.x --march=i486"14:05
Hurrianlibc is quirky like that14:05
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zeq1Hurrian: is there a way I can find out?14:07
zeq1readelf -A /lib/ doesn't give me anything14:07
Hurrianit should be in the tuple14:08
Hurriangcc doesn't store it's cross target info14:08
zeq1uname -m returns i38614:09
zeq1tbh, I've been using AMD64 for so long I can't remember whether that would show i686 or not14:10
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zeq1Hurrian: do you have a real x86 system?14:11
Hurrianwho doesn't?14:11
chem|stzeq1: i386 is 32bit14:11
chem|stisn't it?14:11
zeq1chem|st: I know, but it's also different from i68614:11
Hurrianzeq1, it's just some optimisation flags14:11
HurrianDebian still builds with i386 target14:12
zeq1instruction availablity14:12
HurrianArch builds with i686 target14:12
Hurrianif you're pulling stuff from Debian, it should work14:12
chem|stI have 64 and 32 installed on my netbook... one is i386 and the other is i686 I think14:12
shadowx_root@infoTV:~# uname -m14:12
Hurrianif you're building on an amd64 machine on the host, you may have a problem14:12
zeq1I'm referring to fremantle/x8614:12
zeq1Hurrian: that's okay, I have a 32bit chroot14:13
zeq1chem|st: stock fremantle/x86 SDK14:13
chem|stshould be 32bit iirc14:13
zeq1yes, but i386, i486, or i686 :P14:13
chem|stah ok14:13
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zeq1normally, I would just go for i686, but scratchbox comes with a i486 cross-compiler :S14:14
chem|stzeq1: harmattan and fremantle are i48614:14
zeq1i486, ok14:15
zeq1I'll build a cross-compiler then, rather than a i686 host-compiler14:15
zeq1I wasn't sure what toolchain fremantle was built with14:15
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zeq1chem|st: that's despite the pkg having i386 in the name?14:19
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chem|stuname -m in scratchbox returns i48614:21
chem|stand that is for sure not my hostsystem14:22
zeq1ok :)14:22
SpeedEvili386 is kinda generic14:23
zeq1SpeedEvil: it's both generic and specific :P14:23
SpeedEvilI used a 386 yesterday.14:24
SpeedEvilThough it was a 386ex14:24
SpeedEvilIn my garmin GPS1214:24
SpeedEvil(I've idly wondered over the years about putting linux on it)14:24
zeq1they've stopped making them recently haven't they?14:24
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SpeedEvilBut it never came to anything.14:24
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SpeedEvilI assume you mean 386exs14:24
zeq1I guess I do :)14:25
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jonwilI am surprised anyone would be using x86 for anything other than a full desktop/laptop PC14:26
jonwilwhen there are so many better options14:26
SpeedEvilThere weren't.14:26
jonwilhow old is this hardware?14:26
SpeedEvilBack in 1993 (?) 386 was one of a very, very limited number of lowish power processors.14:26
SpeedEvilhigh performance.14:27
jonwilyeah good point, ARM didn't exist yet14:27
jonwiland things like zilog had no power14:27
SpeedEvilI think there may have been MIPS around, but my memory is fuzzy.14:27
jonwil68000 was another choice used by such people IIRC14:27
SpeedEvilI think that would have been broadly comparable.14:28
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SpeedEvilIIRC it only had 2M RAM14:28
zeq1ARM have been around londer than that14:28
SpeedEvilAnd digikey doesn't stock any parts with 386ex in the title14:28
infobotzeq1 meant: ARM have been around longer than that14:28
zeq1I was using an ARM in 198914:29
SpeedEvilAs parts suitable for embedded hardware though?14:29
SpeedEvilThe 386ex is a system on a chip - you need very few external components.14:29
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zeq1they weren't high power compared to contemporary x86 hardware14:29
jonwilanyone know what ke-recv is?14:29
SpeedEvilzeq1: No, but if they needed an extra dozen chips...14:30
zeq1SpeedEvil: depended what you wanted to do14:30
zeq1I don't think they made out of Acorn until the Apple Newton?14:31
zeq1or am I getting my history confused?14:31
SpeedEvilAnyway - back at that time the 386ex was a sane choice. It got 12h on 4 AA cells.14:31
jonwilthese days of course you would be stupid to put x86 in anything embedded14:32
zeq1yeah, and was well proven, with the hw bugs removed14:32
zeq1even today there aren't a lot of choices for radiation/EMP hardened devices though14:33
jonwilif it wasnt for the need (and desire) to run Windows, there would be a lot less x86 powered netbooks and tablets out there14:33
zeq1jonwil: you mean DOS :P14:33
jonwilI mean Windows (or rather Windows Netbook or whatever MS is calling it these days)14:34
zeq1never heard of it :)14:34
zeq1The momementum behind the desktop ubiquity of ix86 really came from 80x86 DOS compatiblity.14:36
jonwilyes it did14:36
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jonwilbut the reason x86 survives outside of core desktop and laptop markets is mostly because of Windows, if it wasnt for Windows, vendors would be picking ARM instead of x86 for netbooks and tablets.14:37
zeq1if it wasn't for that Microsoft if they still exisited would have written their software to be portable14:37
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Jaffazeq1: ARM was spun out of Acorn to be a JV with Apple and VLSI for the Newton, yes.14:39
SpeedEvilI have a nexus 7.14:39
Jaffazeq1: First ARM was available in about 1985/86 as the "ARM Development Board", an ARM co-processor for the BBC's Tube interface.14:39
SpeedEvilIt's amazingly fast, in many ways.14:39
Jaffazeq1: First used in a proper machine in the Archimedes in 198714:39
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SpeedEvilThough - to drag it back on topic - I don't like the task switcher.14:40
zeq1Jaffa: I had a number of Acorn machines over the years14:40
JaffaSpeedEvil: I played on a colleague's - biggest problem, which'd be a showstopper for me was that fast typing in landscape mode meant I kept hitting 'Home' when I wanted 'space'14:40
SpeedEvilJaffa: I find getting up to speed on the vkbd is painful.14:40
Jaffazeq1: I've been playing with RISC OS 5 from recently (since it's getting more focus with the Raspberry Pi)14:40
SpeedEvilJaffa: At the very least, the thing should beep differently as you hit keys off centre.14:41
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SpeedEvilOther than the lack of a hwkbd, it's very nearly my ideal casual browsing device.14:41
freemangordonin the meanwile: microb-engine is successfuly built with GCC 4.7.214:41
SpeedEvil'swipe' would make it wonderful.14:41
zeq1Jaffa: I always quite liked the RISC OS Desktop, but the underlying OS was always a bit of a cludge.14:41
Jaffazeq1: But yes, you're right. Late 80s/early 90s, Acorn's machines running with ARM chips were faster than equivalently clocked x86 and used less power.14:41
SpeedEvilI'm still using my n900 a lot though.14:41
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SpeedEvilBasically as I'm not so scared of dropping it at this point :)14:42
Jaffazeq1: It's pleasantly simple for a hobbyist OS now. Even if it's still fairly easy to lockup14:42
JaffaSpeedEvil: :)14:42
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zeq1I haven't used RISC OS since version 3.5+14:43
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zeq1I ended up putting Linux on my Acorn RPC :)14:44
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zeq1on topic: what's the triplet for fremantle/x86?14:45
vi__in the meanwile: microb-engine is successfuly built with GCC 4.7.214:46
vi__^this gives me a mega boner.14:46
vi__SpeedEvil: Get an otterbox.14:46
vi__Put your tank phone in a tank box.14:47
SpeedEvilWhat's that?14:47
freemangordonyeah, and it works (at least on my developer device), HTTPS TLS error is gone14:47
vi__MANSIZE phone.14:47
zeq1freemangordon: :D14:47
SpeedEvilI have a silicone case.14:47
SpeedEvilIt's 2mm or so on each side14:47
zeq1freemangordon: I wonder if it's the same bug as affected fennec?14:47
vi__SpeedEvil: Are you kdding me? The otterbox is the toughest of all the n900 cases.14:47
zeq1freemangordon: do you know what the triplet is for fremantle/x86?14:48
vi__Also, when you take the N900 out of it, the N900 looks so slim and sexy!14:48
freemangordonzeq1: I can bet on that (the bug)14:48
vi__People always mock my N900 in a otterbox.14:49
freemangordonzeq1: why not login in FREMANTLE_X86 and check?14:49
vi__They say, lol what is that?  It is not the 80's anymore.14:49
zeq1because that's too obvious DOH14:49
vi__And I'm like 'hah, this is not a phone it is a computer.  It is so good I can even you Cron to run a gsync script every hour over an encypted SSH tunnel'14:50
vi__And they go but it doesn't have FROOT NINJA.14:50
* vi__ forever alone.14:50
freemangordonzeq1: :D14:50
zeq1freemangordon: it's not a problem building the devkit in fremantle/x86 do you think?14:51
Jaffazeq1: RPCemu is quite nice, as it works with the "shared source" version available free:
zeq1freemangordon: it's not exactly SB standard, but I can't see what else I can do being unable to update the SB etch environment.14:52
vi__RiSC OS still exists?14:52
zeq1vi__: yes14:52
vi__mother of god.14:52
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vi__why won't it die?14:52
zeq1as does Acorn, unbelievably, although no longer associated14:53
keriowhat the hell, lists "Lumia N900" as a nokia model14:53
zeq1now known as element1414:54
zeq1kerio: ?????14:54
vi__In secondary school, our curriculum was so outdated we used to run an econet of acorn archimedes A400(?) to emulate a serial network of BBC micros to learn programming in COBOL.14:55
zeq1vi__: cool14:55
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vi__We were learning an obsolete language on networked obsolete hardware emulating a network h even more obsoleter hardware.14:56
zeq1since element14 are behind R-pi it's quite fitting to get RISC OS on it I guess :)14:56
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infobotvi__ meant: We were learning an obsolete language on networked obsolete ofardware emulating a network h even more obsoleter hardware.14:56
zeq1I don't think you did mean that ;)14:57
keriohm, i wonder if there's an xl version of the otterbox14:57
vi__kerio: They are quite small.14:57
Jaffavi__: But, you were learning something. Unlike the recent ICT curriculum which taught Word, Excel & PowerPoint14:58
vi__Jaffa: That makes me so F* mad.14:58
keriovi__: yeah, i meant one for a mugen battery14:58
vi__They are teaching UK kids useless stuff on outdated proprietory software.14:59
kerioor a double scud14:59
Jaffavi__: I did some proper RISC OS hacking a few weeks ago, and it's surprising still how *fun* it is (compared with, say, fighting Qt Creator and random deployment problems to mobile devices)14:59
vi__What damn use is an O level in using MS Word 2002?14:59
vi__Jaffa: Aaaah, to compute in more innocent times.15:01
JaffaFortunately, despite Michael Gove being an irritating git generally, he stopped the ICT curriculum after Eric Schmidt's comments and the lobbying/press around RPi etc.15:01
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JaffaUnfortunately, this has meant lots of teachers don't know how to do the new requirements when it restarts in September.15:02
JaffaHopefully, the production launch of the RPi will come with sufficient number of educational resources to make it relevant (and necessary)15:02
keriowhat's so fun in the RPi?15:02
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Jaffakerio: In general? Cheap & GPIO & press attention15:03
keriohm, the gpio could be neat15:03
kerioanything else can be done better by a sheevaplug15:03
JaffaDepends what you want to do.15:04
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JaffaIf you want to get a movement going, and re-energise people into hacking, you need momentum & press. The Pi has that, so it's therefore the best vanguard ATM15:04
fralsthe sheevaplug is quite a bit more expensive thou?15:05
JaffaAbout $100 according to a quick Google15:05
fralsat least mine was, and no display/audio out15:05
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fralsthe only thing it has over the rpi i guess is ram size15:06
JaffaAlison Randall gave a very cool talk at oscon on the hardware & software she used to do home automation and smart home stuff.15:06
fralscpu might be a tad better as well, but gpu in rpi should compensate15:06
Jaffa looks cool, as does and
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keriothe jeenode has an 8-bit cpu15:09
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JaffaYeah, she ended up writing her own TCP/IP stack for the 66 byte packets so it was easier to program. That's how she defines "easier"15:10
Jaffa - more detail in the slides, but no video of the very cool session (even if the live demo didn't completely work 100%)15:12
Jaffa(Bah, got the double 'l's the wrong way round in her name)15:13
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Raimuvi__ But you can have FROOT NINJA on the n900 ._.16:14
jacekowskihmm, nokia n9 for 2000SAR16:16
jacekowskireasonable price?16:16
Raimu533 bucks! :G16:17
jacekowskilittle bit more than that in reality16:17
jacekowskinobody ever gets google exchange rate16:17
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Raimu"Mid-market rates"16:23
RaimuI guess Google displays the same rates.16:23
jacekowskiif you get some cash at that rate let me know16:24
Raimu;P fat chance.16:24
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keriohm, what's the "firefox" in ovi store?16:32
keriois it an old version of fennec?16:32
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Lava_Croftjust steer clear from fennec unless someone finally made it usable16:34
Lava_Croftits really bad to be spoiled by chrome on nexus7 :<16:34
Lava_Croftbut good thing that Android is a pos16:34
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zeq1Lava_Croft: if you want to make a new port of Chrome to Fremanle, I'm sure nobody will complain.16:36
Lava_Croftzeq1: no shit16:36
Lava_Crofti wouldnt complain either!16:36
Lava_Croftwell, i would, since chrome is odd16:36
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Lava_Croftthere's already websites that state you need Chrome to view them16:36
Lava_Croftso its getting a bit MSIE6 now16:36
zeq1Lava_Croft: I'm going to get back to fennec again once I've finished with the SB infrastructure bits16:41
Lava_Croftzeq1: i was being a bit harsh :<16:42
Lava_Crofti very much appreciate the work on fennec!16:42
PaliMaemo mirror.list for apt-mirror is complete:
Lava_Croftits basically the only close-to-normal browser for the n90016:42
PaliWho has enought space for backup??16:42
JaffaLava_Croft: Bit annoying that the tab bar and the navigation bar don't scroll out of the way on the Nexus 7 - especially in landscape16:42
Lava_CroftJaffa: yes16:42
Lava_Croftand its camera is just wtf16:42
Lava_Croftmight as well have not included it16:43
JaffaPali: Page doesn't say how much, or how much it changes per day16:43
Lava_Croftoverall im not a fan of the Android OS anyway:<16:43
Lava_Croftbut the price/quality on the Nexus7 is ridiculously good16:43
Lava_Crofti imported mine from the US, saved me 100euros in comparison to the 250euro price they put on it once it releases here in the Netherlands16:43
Lava_Croft100euros is a bit steep for a europowerplug16:44
PaliJaffa, I do not know how many GB space is needed...16:44
PaliI only created mirror.list files16:44
Lava_CroftPali: is that 'everything'?16:44
PaliLava_Croft, what I know16:44
Lava_Crofti cant back it up, but ill ask around16:45
Lava_Croftthis is fairly important16:45
Lava_Croftmaybe the guy hosting my irssi can back it up16:45
PaliI think there should be all for fremantle16:45
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JaffaLava_Croft: I might've bought one whilst in the US last week, but didn't find one in stock. Had a play with one back in the UK and the hardware's nice, the OS feels less cluttered on the big screen but the virtual keyboard buttons annoyed me whilst trying to type quickly in landscape (something that I can do well on the iPad)16:46
Lava_Croftits basically my galaxy nexus, only bigger, faster and without 2g/3g radios16:46
Lava_Croftsame goes for most apps from Google Play16:46
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Lava_Croftits just treated as a big phone, sadly16:47
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Lava_Croftand the keyboard, well16:47
Lava_Croftnever liked android keyb:X16:47
Lava_Croftits very uncomfortable to type in landscape, and my wife feels its not as accurate either16:48
Lava_Croftshe uses mostly just portrait mode16:48
keriodamn, the nexus 7 looks yummy16:48
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Lava_Croft(not as accurate as her iphone4)16:48
Lava_Crofti must say that Minecraft PE is pretty neat on it tho16:48
Lava_Croftbut damn 250euro price16:49
Lava_Croft150euros would be great, but 250 is just too much16:49
Lava_Croftdamn euro prices16:49
Lava_Croft250e comes too close to a previous-gen ipad16:49
Lava_Croftor a used ipad16:49
JaffaWill be interesting to see if Apple do come out with an iPad "Mini" at a similar price point16:52
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Lava_CroftThey probably will16:52
Lava_CroftWhat I am more interested in is their logic behind making one:)16:53
Lava_CroftSince Emperor Jobs already declared them dead on arrivale16:53
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JaffaLava_Croft: The screen size comparison is quite convincing. 7.85" 4:3 vs. 7" 16:9 will be a big difference (especially in landscape typing)16:59
JaffaThe only question is then if 7.85" 4:3 is too big. It won't fit in jacket pockets, for example, unlike the 7" 16:9 form-factor and Kindle16:59
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infobotfrom memory, pali is
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keriois there a way to *set* the data counters?17:26
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merlin1991just in case anyone wonders, maemo + harm ssu and sdk repost are 32gb in total17:32
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keriomerlin1991: fits perfectly in the n900! :D17:36
keriodid anyone try to boost the bluetooth antenna in some whay?17:36
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RST38hAnyone knows when ARM9 has been introduced?17:52
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ShadowJKkerio; same antenna as wifi18:33
keriook then18:34
keriodid someone try to boost the wifi antenna in some way?18:34
keriomy bt headphones kinda suck if my phone is in my pants' pockets18:34
keriothey work fine if the phone is in a jacket's pocket18:34
ShadowJKmine seems to only jitter if wifi on n900 is used simultaneously18:36
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DocScrutinizer05so what became of our nandtester?19:55
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I had that effect with Samsung Omnia. turned out it was the "turn face down to mute2 function that sucked bigtime when phone got shaken by walking19:58
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: nah, it's the actual range here20:16
kerioin the back pocket the effect is much less disruptive20:16
kerioi suppose it's just crappy range on both parts20:16
kerioplus my body in the middle20:16
keriobut hey, fat shouldn't block radio :s20:17
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jonwilJust about to make a wiki entry with all this dbus information I have been collecting20:21
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RaimuDocScrutinizer05: Nandtester? vi__'s brainchild you mean?20:32
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DocScrutinizer51I meant satru721:03
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kerioDocScrutinizer51: how did you do that? :O21:08
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jonwilok, I got all the dbus information that I can get at this point, will post it all to the wiki tommorow21:19
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DocScrutinizer51kerio: do what?21:20
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DocScrutinizer51vquery matokla21:20
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sambo7unfortunately wasn't able to proceed on my nandtest cousin's internet is down,so wasn't able to download the images21:31
sambo7but at least some progress with the device...when connected to usb,the led is constantly on yellow/orange...maybe I can continue tomorrow evening21:31
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DocScrutinizer51sambo7: nope, as constant amber means your battery is too depelted to flash22:35
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Estel_Wow, 831 lines of productive discussions about porting, replacing closed bits, etc22:44
Estel_It was pleasure to read22:44
Estel_it's exactly the kind of things i *love* to see on IRC, when logged in. Funny, as actually, it seems that much more work is going under the hood, than in harmattan world22:45
Estel_...with great part of it being done from people that received CA awards, and despite fact, that 50 other devices were given to boost up harmattan development (as addition to 300 before)22:46
Estel_well, Maemo is truly unique, no matter what22:46
Estel_(Maemo as in "maemo and friends" i.e. including Mer)22:46
Estel_DocScrutinizer, have You checked Pali's hostmode implementation? I know that kernel side is based on hostmode, but do You know, maybe, what was improved/fixed, or what can be potentialy worse than in hen?22:47
Estel_Pali's work looks very neat, I just wonder if there was something fixed, above what is in HEN22:47
Estel_or it's rather properly implementing it in kernel and user-space, but without any changes to merit of operation22:47
Estel_(except for auto-guessing of speed)22:47
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sambo7@Doc at least better than no reaction whatsoever when connecting to usb/power22:50
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Estel_sambo7, how cold flashing went?22:53
Estel_practically, you have two Hw revisions in circulation22:53
Estel_2101 and 220422:53
Estel_the first one is most popular22:53
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sambo7couldn't do it cousins internet was down,so was unable to download images22:54
Estel_so you should try those two only, other 2 are practically non-existant22:54
Estel_I though You have them already22:54
sambo7no,wanted to download them,but don't have a flat here(on vacation)22:54
sambo7so wanted to do it at my cousins house...22:55
sambo7hope to proceed tomorrow22:55
Estel_DocScrutinizer, as for busybox and unix tools, I agree with the unix tools aprts, of course, but...22:55
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Estel_it's kinda "You fault" - as ps aux works well in busybox-power, which is exactly full fledged mainstream busybox (ash) with unix tools :)22:55
sambo7but rather in the evening hours...was damn hot today,tomorrow the I'll spend the day on the lake22:56
Estel_...available on both normal working time, and all kind of recovery consoles. bash for working day is good, probably, when someone is used to it, but I feel sorry for anyone wanting to use it at boot time22:56
Estel_sambo7, 31 C degrees here22:56
Estel_no need to go to egypth22:57
sambo7the same here...Masuria,poland22:57
sambo7though I actually live in Germany22:57
DocScrutinizer05~weather eddn22:58
infobotNuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2012.07.27 1950 UTC; Dew Point: 57 F (14 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.83 in. Hg (1010 hPa); Relative Humidity: 42%; Temperature: 82 F (28 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Wind: from the SE (130 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 KT)22:58
Estel_well, Poznan, Poland ;)22:58
Estel_I supposed You must be from Poland, when talking about high temperatures22:58
Estel_don't know why, because other places are hot too22:58
sambo7was born in Poland,moved to Germany as a kid22:59
Estel_enjoying vacations, eh? what made you to try nandtest when outside home wih recovery tools?22:59
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Estel_aanyway, enjoy Your time here, masuria is great :)23:00
sambo7went past Poznan when going na Mazury23:00
DocScrutinizer05meh, we had >35°C today23:00
sambo7my device was suddenly factory default'ed23:00
sambo7didn't change anything23:01
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Estel_sambo7, before test?23:01
Estel_just out of nothing?23:01
sambo7was looking for a way to restore may yappari.conf23:01
sambo7before test23:01
sambo7because registration doesn't work anymore23:01
DocScrutinizer05~piglatin nand test23:02
infobotandnay esttay23:02
sambo7but managed to register before reg process was changed23:02
Estel_whatever yappari is, name suggest some closed, commercial, privacy abusing communicator23:02
Estel_or social something23:02
sambo7so with the old conf I could have continued to run yappari23:02
sambo7a whatsapp clobne23:02
Estel_it was just wild guess, have I hit the 100 points?;p23:03
Estel_well, it's probably problematic for You, and everyone si free to use whatever wants...23:03
Estel_But have you never considered using some FOSS alternative?23:03
sambo7it's developed by a guy from South America...look for it in the maemo-forum23:03
Estel_the one you mentioned (main, not yappari) is kinda last thing that I woudl trust23:04
sambo7you get a 100023:04
Estel_well, maybe facebook is lower on list23:04
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Estel_yes, I know why name sound familliar - it spammed "latest activity" on TMO for some time23:04
sambo7don't like/use facebook either23:04
Estel_why not jabber (or it's current name, that I can't remember), or any else proper tool?23:04
DocScrutinizer05~rot13 andnay esttay23:04
infobotnaqanl rfggnl23:04
DocScrutinizer05~piglatin naqanl rfggnl23:05
infobotaqanlnay rfggnlay23:05
Estel_DocScrutinizer, learning troll's language to see through their plans?23:05
DocScrutinizer05and that's what you did to your NJ90023:05
Estel_DocScrutinizer, don't be so pesimistic, inf act it's interesting, how easily CAL can be restored23:05
Estel_I bet on cold flash solving it all23:06
DocScrutinizer05ATM he can't restore even his battery23:06
DocScrutinizer05it's in emergency flat23:06
Estel_btw kick in nandtest ass for not providing any warnings23:06
Estel_battery can be charged externally, the thing is about if cold flash could pass without cal and restore it, which I hope for23:06
DocScrutinizer05we'll see23:07
sambo7am very exited if it'll work out...will see tomorrow,I hope23:07
Estel_Well, I've just went through 831 lines of productive discussion in #maemo, then wanted to check #harmattan and saw who is writing hat there... Well, it looks kinda miserable, compared to #maemo. I udnerstand now, why many people that got N950 are absent there23:08
DocScrutinizer05well, if and only if you manage to carge your battery until tomorrow23:08
Estel_DocScrutinizer, any external charge/other phone using bl-5J should do it quickly23:08
Estel_30 minutes for having usable power level23:08
sambo7don't have external charger here23:08
Estel_1 hour to be sure ;)23:08
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: preaching to the choir?23:08
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: see? ^^^23:09
Estel_DocScrutinizer, rather diplomatically saying that #harmattan got flooded by rats shit content23:09
Estel_see what?23:09
DocScrutinizer05<sambo7> don't have external charger here23:09
Estel_5V power supply and bunch of resistors should make it to 30% of state of charge :P23:09
DocScrutinizer05sambo7: don't even think about flashing until you charged your battery23:10
sambo7will be right speaking to my girl;-)23:10
Estel_DocScrutinizer, playing mcgyver, he could always find some old, uneeded peice of electronic, like old analog phone or whatever, and use aprts to drop voltage from 5V Ps to less than 4.223:11
Estel_yea, kinda extreme23:11
Estel_I'm just theoretizing23:11
Estel_but should be quite easy, and even fun and entertaining experience ;)23:11
DocScrutinizer05like fixing IR-LED? ;-P23:11
Estel_as soon as LiIon's won't start exploding, of course23:12
Estel_DocScrutinizer, yea, but that one was more extreme23:12
Estel_but, after all, it's working, including Ir led!23:12
Estel_I'm stubbornm son of a... so i couldn't left it like that, and opened it again, to solder the same led back again23:12
Estel_fun fact - judging by visible light when looking via digital camera, it looks like making more clear beam, now23:12
DocScrutinizer05I outright refuse to tell guys who mess with nandtest how to rape their LiIon23:13
Estel_(comparing to spare N900 with untouched IR)23:13
Estel_DocScrutinizer, free knowledge for all :)23:13
DocScrutinizer05since I'm not the bastard from hell some think I am23:13
Estel_explosives in basement for all23:13
Estel_bubut seriously, I'm sure sambo7 won't try that, but if he would want to, he for sure will read *this* message that LiIon like to explode when threaten badly23:14
Estel_or, at least, "vent with flame"23:14
Estel_i.e. never ever charge it with anything higher than 4.2 V output, and never ever try to charge it to the end via homemade 5V to <4.2 V reduction, as it's still lackign saturation23:14
Estel_so could be used to charge for 50-70% max, and personally, I would never charge it more than 50%23:15
Estel_this way23:15
Estel_ /disclaimer end23:15
Estel_well, wanna go extreme? at last resort, everything needed to charge battery is rice, bunch of small containers, soil (as in earth) and cable or any other well-conductive material23:17
Estel_mix rice with soil and water, heat it a little, and clsoe in small container. After 2 days it will start to produce ~15 mA @ 0.5V. Some creative paralle and linear connections, and You can charge Your battery via "green" energy..,.:P23:18
sambo7takes a little longer...women use a lot more words a day than men;-)23:18
Estel_ok, enuf of joking, time for work (despite it being entirely true, power is produced via bacteria)23:18
Estel_(pros - it can work for as long as year, without re-filling)23:19
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sambo7won't be making up another mess after "nandtesting" my device...electronics is "a book with 7 seals"...->don't know anything about it23:24
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DocScrutinizer05sambo7: go to next shop, buy either a charger or a BL-5J which you tell the dude to charge for you before you buy it23:29
DocScrutinizer05'used' BL-5J are like 10EUR in EURope23:30
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DocScrutinizer05you even might get a used compatible Nokia featurephone for 10..20EUR23:32
DocScrutinizer05incl a BL-5J23:32
sambo7don't know if I will get it here...I guess I'll spend my day tomorrow rather with enjoying the sun/lake at approx. 30-35° than searching for a charger23:32
sambo7but in the early morning I could make a trip to town & city if I can find something23:33
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RiDWhat is this London 2012 thing everyone is talking about?23:55
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DocScrutinizer05sorta musical nobody knows what's the plot of it23:58

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