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| DocScrutinizer05 | (<louisdk> Off-topic. You installed sudser via root though SSH and got this message "Please read and close the popup dialog". LOL.) a) who's "you"? b) wtf is sudser? c) "though SSH" sounds like insttalation by apt-get, so the msg is more than sane as sudser then obviosuly is one of the pkgs that aren't meant to get installed via apt-get since they open a requester on display:0.0, a "normal" thing for pkg install in HAM | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| Sicelo | NIN101: ping | 00:01 |
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| NIN101 | Sicelo: pong | 00:04 |
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| Sicelo | hmm, now i think i pinged you for nothing. i needed a reminder for rescueOS, namely, how do i login to the system via usb after i have usb-networking up | 00:06 |
| Sicelo | i just remembered that i have to use telnet | 00:06 |
| NIN101 | okay :-) | 00:07 |
| kerio | this evening at the restaurant i learned the hard way that backupmenu2 doesn't backup the kernel and that not having the correct kernel modules is a Bad Idea | 00:07 |
| Sicelo | :P | 00:07 |
| kerio | it was especially sad because i really wanted to "audit" a wep wifi network that was there | 00:08 |
| Sicelo | this means today is a bad day for N900. | 00:08 |
| kerio | indeed | 00:08 |
| Sicelo | i've borked mine the second time already :P | 00:08 |
| Sicelo | that's why i'm on rescueOS as we speak | 00:08 |
| kerio | right now i have the kp50 modules and a kp51 kernel | 00:08 |
| kerio | i suppose i'll just flash the stock nokia kernel | 00:08 |
| kerio | (i made a full backup right before the problem, and it has kp51 modules and omap1 modules) | 00:09 |
| kerio | Sicelo: just make backupmenu work regardless of stuff | 00:10 |
| louisdk | DocScrutinizer05: Sudser allows user to run root commands while typing sudo in front of them. This oage does not say using apt is a bad thing: http://wiki.maemo.org/Terminal#Debian_package_management expect for autoremove which will remove things you want to keep. | 00:10 |
| kerio | where's bootmenu installed? | 00:10 |
| kerio | louisdk: [citation needed], actually | 00:10 |
| kerio | autoremove works perfectly here | 00:11 |
| kerio | no "lost" packages | 00:11 |
| kerio | (latest cssu-t) | 00:11 |
| NIN101 | ... | 00:11 |
| NIN101 | fine down, not tomorrow. | 00:11 |
| NIN101 | *fine today | 00:11 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: package install scripts that open windows is a GIANT wtf | 00:12 |
| louisdk | kerio: Thx for info | 00:12 |
| kerio | HAM should properly support debconf, and it should use *that* instead | 00:12 |
| kerio | as always, fuckin' nokia | 00:12 |
| louisdk | kerio: +1 | 00:12 |
| Sicelo | kerio: ever tried rescueOS? | 00:12 |
| kerio | Sicelo: nope | 00:12 |
| kerio | where is it installed? sd? | 00:13 |
| NIN101 | nowhere, it's an initrd. | 00:14 |
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| kerio | hmm | 00:15 |
| kerio | does backupmenu work with the default kernel | 00:15 |
| kerio | ? | 00:15 |
| Sicelo | NIN101: rescueOS isn't able to mount MyDocs for me, is it my system only? | 00:16 |
| NIN101 | no idea. | 00:16 |
| Sicelo | ~$ mount /dev/mmcblk1p1 /mnt/free1/ | 00:17 |
| Sicelo | mount: mounting /dev/mmcblk1p1 on /mnt/free1/ failed: Input/output error | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: suggest a better 3way! | 00:17 |
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| NIN101 | what does dmesg say? | 00:17 |
| NIN101 | also I have no clue, maybe you nedd to say -t vfat or whatever. | 00:18 |
| kerio | i support any and every 3way | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pling | 00:19 |
| Sicelo | lol. yeah, needed the vfat thingy | 00:19 |
| NIN101 | yeah the busybox mount has no autodetect, or at least wasn't compiled | 00:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, have fun with your workshop here | 00:21 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: ok, wat do | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you finally find out you can actually cook eggs in your dishwasher, please don't let me know | 00:22 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: installed system with kp50 modules, kp51 flashed, i want to restore a backup that was made with kp51 installed | 00:22 |
| kerio | does backupmenu work with the stock kernel? | 00:22 |
| kerio | or does it need a framebuffer? | 00:22 |
| kerio | what should i do? | 00:22 |
| Sicelo | please could anyone paste `mount` result | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: "sorry, your draft limit for today been exceeded. Contact your bank consultant" | 00:23 |
| kerio | really helpful, thanks | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry if it's less helpful than my warning about your token-jar depleting by asking nonsense questions | 00:25 |
| Sicelo | specifically, i would like to know how /opt is actually mounted | 00:25 |
| Sicelo | as well as MyDocs | 00:25 |
| NIN101 | /opt/ is a bind mount | 00:25 |
| NIN101 | something like mount --bind /home/opt/ /opt/ | 00:26 |
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| Sicelo | thanks | 00:27 |
| kerio | restoring | 00:30 |
| kerio | Sicelo: does restoreOS have a web page of some sorts? | 00:31 |
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| NIN101 | http://206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/ | 00:32 |
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| kerio | NIN101: neat! | 00:34 |
| kerio | nothing that runs on the n900 itself though | 00:35 |
| kerio | unless you're willing to kinda dick around with uboot, i s'pose | 00:35 |
| NIN101 | ? | 00:35 |
| Sicelo | hmm, i think i still need a full 'mount' output | 00:35 |
| kerio | NIN101: it requires a computer to work | 00:36 |
| kerio | (rightfully so) | 00:36 |
| Sicelo | kerio: it's the best thing since sliced bread, imo | 00:36 |
| Sicelo | :P | 00:36 |
| kerio | no, that's backupmenu | 00:36 |
| NIN101 | Sicelo | 00:37 |
| kerio | hmm, i just found a (huge?) problem with cssu-thumb | 00:37 |
| NIN101 | this is what maemo does during boot: cat /proc/mounts > /etc/mtab | 00:37 |
| kerio | meh, i suppose it's not a big deal if you can just flash the correct kernel with flasher | 00:37 |
| kerio | nvm | 00:37 |
| NIN101 | could give you my mount output, it is full of dm-crypt stuff etc. so wouldn't probably help | 00:38 |
| Sicelo | :P | 00:38 |
| Sicelo | needed a basic one | 00:38 |
| kerio | Sicelo: /home/opt on /opt type none (bind) | 00:38 |
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| Sicelo | and MyDocs? | 00:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDocs type vfat (rw,noauto,nodev,noexec,nosuid,noatime,nodiratime,utf8,uid=29999,shortname=mixed,dmask=000,fmask=0133,rodir) | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: why would you need to mount /opt on a rescue system? | 00:41 |
| Sicelo | thanks. well, i don't need /opt. i need MyDocs to be mounted alongside maemo rootfs though | 00:42 |
| kerio | to run python scripts, of course | 00:42 |
| kerio | about that... why does python on n900 only have about half of the python stdlib? :/ | 00:42 |
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| TamyrRRRR | A quick question, I tried to google for it but no luck. Is it really normal that apt-get will say that some packages cannot be authenticated when trying to install scratchbox? (I'm trying to follow the instructions on http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo5_Final_Installation for a text based installation | 00:54 |
| TamyrRRRR | (The GUI based installation didn't work.) | 00:54 |
| jacekowski | yes | 00:54 |
| jacekowski | as you don't have signing key installed into your keyring | 00:55 |
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| TamyrRRRR | Hmm, any idea where the signing key can be found? | 01:03 |
| jacekowski | on keyserver | 01:03 |
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| kerio | oh wow, just got a segfault in busybox | 01:07 |
| kerio | with rm | 01:07 |
| kerio | i don't even | 01:07 |
| Estel_ | morning, guys | 01:07 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, I've tested charging with 0x71... BTW, it turned out, that whole "life" I was using version that charges via 0x50, = 1050 mA, without any ill effects :P | 01:09 |
| Estel_ | BTW, are there any other improvements in latter versions of charge.sh? or was it just tuning this value? | 01:09 |
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| Estel_ | anyway, charging 3A battery with 0x71 works fine, peak temperature 46 C degrees | 01:10 |
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| Estel_ | hoever, for some reason, I got feeling that it have cap to 1050 anyway. Even with everything disabled and screen off, I never saw more than ~1040 current reported | 01:11 |
| Estel_ | as for cable, it's very good one (had to pay 2 usd for it, after all :P ) - no problem with putting 3A through it, @5V, without negative temp effects | 01:12 |
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| Estel_ | I'm also perfectly sure, that it touches port in N900 okey'ish, it doesn't look like problem with too much current for small pins | 01:13 |
| Estel_ | any idea? | 01:13 |
| Estel_ | BTW, thanks ShadowJK and DocScrutinizer for explaining me, patiently, how it works ;) | 01:13 |
| ShadowJK | probably would only pull 1.2A when empty | 01:14 |
| Estel_ | it seems, that DocScrutinizer was right about heat being generated by single-cell itself, if threaten with 1050, not charging chip's step-down converter | 01:14 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, tested it when almost empty, charging status reported 0x10 | 01:14 |
| Estel_ | 400 mAh left out of 3000 mAh (ok, maybe it isn't almost empty, after all, but shouldn't pull whole current anyway?) | 01:15 |
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| Estel_ | also, there is no way to force more than 1250, by any humanly means? I wouldn't mind charging this 3A battery with 2A, it would be still less than 950 mA vs standard battery | 01:16 |
| Estel_ | (my travel charger supply even little more than 2A) | 01:17 |
| jacekowski | bq24150 can't do more than 1250 | 01:18 |
| Estel_ | not to mention, that in home, as part of my DIY "ultimate docking station for everything" :P I have modified ATX power supply, that can push 40A @ 5V - wouldn't mind trying to charge prototype of 6,8A battery with, lets say, 4A, observing temp | 01:18 |
| Estel_ | pity. | 01:18 |
| jacekowski | with 1250 being absolute maximum | 01:18 |
| jacekowski | so you are risking killing bq1250 | 01:18 |
| Estel_ | BTW, 1250 isn't stressing step-down converter? | 01:18 |
| jacekowski | and ending up with no charging at all | 01:18 |
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| Estel_ | hah, it was my next question :) | 01:19 |
| Estel_ | with no ill effects re chip's reported temperature, should I still be afraid of killing it? | 01:19 |
| jacekowski | hmm, it looks like bq24150 has thermal throttling builtin | 01:20 |
| Estel_ | Of course, it would be much more sane to do 1150 or even 1050, in case of *real* risk | 01:20 |
| Estel_ | throotling, or just cut-out? | 01:20 |
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| jacekowski | throttling and trip | 01:20 |
| jacekowski | throttling from 120C | 01:20 |
| jacekowski | and trip at 165C | 01:20 |
| jacekowski | http://maemo.jacekowski.org/docs/bq24150.pdf | 01:20 |
| Estel_ | maybe throotling is reason, why I feel caped to 1050, after all? but throotling on 46 C degrees? 0_o | 01:20 |
| Estel_ | I see | 01:21 |
| jacekowski | i think it's measuring current going to battery | 01:21 |
| jacekowski | so 200mA is going to rest of phone | 01:21 |
| jacekowski | but chip itself can only deliver 1250 | 01:21 |
| Estel_ | thanks a lot. As said, peak reported temp is 46C. | 01:21 |
| Estel_ | negative, I did it with disabled activity, nothing at all enabled | 01:21 |
| Estel_ | power draw at this state is 4-8 mA, in my case | 01:22 |
| Estel_ | charging with BME result in real ~940 being reported | 01:22 |
| Estel_ | and it's caped to 950 | 01:22 |
| Estel_ | so I would expect ~1240 or ~1200at least, when charging with max | 01:23 |
| Estel_ | that puzzles me | 01:23 |
| TamyrRRRR | Hmm, now the GUI based installer seems to work (although I note that the GUI based installer also complains about unauthenticated packages) | 01:23 |
| jacekowski | well, maybe external components are not big enough to deliver that much | 01:23 |
| Estel_ | they're, see backscroll :) | 01:23 |
| Estel_ | tested that before attempting experiment | 01:23 |
| Estel_ | PS doesn't have problem with 2A @ 5V, cable delivers 3A without problem | 01:24 |
| Estel_ | I'm not insane, wouldn't risk burning anything | 01:24 |
| jacekowski | not those components | 01:24 |
| Estel_ | N900's ones? | 01:24 |
| jacekowski | there is 1uH inductor in there | 01:25 |
| TamyrRRRR | Nope, the GUI based installer didn't work this time either, oh well, seems like I shouldn't do any maemo development for the moment | 01:25 |
| jacekowski | it can only store so much energy | 01:25 |
| jacekowski | so at whatever frequency bq24150 is running at it may be capable of only delivering 1000mA or whatever | 01:25 |
| jacekowski | buck converters are really complex things | 01:26 |
| Estel_ | I see. So, considering possibility of such limitation existing, should it be safe to left it at "max", without much risk of damaging anything in N900? | 01:26 |
| Estel_ | or is it stressed too much anyway? | 01:26 |
| jacekowski | well, somebody designed it for specific values | 01:26 |
| jacekowski | working outside of those, you don't know what to expect | 01:26 |
| jacekowski | increasing current means more heat disipated in all compoenents | 01:26 |
| jacekowski | not only bq24150 but it's inductor as well | 01:27 |
| jacekowski | and that has no temperature measurment on it | 01:27 |
| Estel_ | sure, that's why I'm thinking if, for example, such inductor could be stressed working at max, from general EE point of view | 01:27 |
| jacekowski | as well as battery | 01:27 |
| jacekowski | charging it at higher current isn't the best thing for battery either | 01:27 |
| jacekowski | lower currents are better for batteries | 01:27 |
| Estel_ | as for battery itsewlf, I'm not worried about it, it's true beast. 1A is 0.3C anyway | 01:28 |
| jacekowski | doesn't matter | 01:28 |
| Estel_ | hm? | 01:28 |
| jacekowski | less current is better for battery regardless of it's size | 01:28 |
| Estel_ | sure, but isn't it like hardly-measurable difference, if it doesn't exceed certain fraction of C? | 01:29 |
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| Estel_ | or it doesn't matter at all? | 01:29 |
| jacekowski | depends on many other factors | 01:29 |
| jacekowski | but generally it's less important on low currents like that | 01:29 |
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| Estel_ | well, it seems that I have to be guinella pig again :) | 01:30 |
| jacekowski | but thing is, lithium batteries tend to explode | 01:30 |
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| jacekowski | and i would prefer to be nice to it | 01:30 |
| Estel_ | vent with flame, if anything :P (pun intended) | 01:31 |
| Estel_ | sure, sure, I've put independent thermal sensor on it. BTW, it shows same value as chip's internal one | 01:31 |
| Estel_ | reinforcing DocScrutinizer observation, that every bit of real heat during charging is generated inside cell only | 01:32 |
| Estel_ | peaked @ 46 C on both sides, doesn't look like it's going to get higher | 01:32 |
| Estel_ | funny, as during extensive discharges (on device) I've observed more than 60 C many times | 01:33 |
| Estel_ | BTW, some times I'm pulling out of battery much more, (inside device, also) than, as it seems, I'm able to put inside, via N900's charging chip | 01:34 |
| ShadowJK | What's voltage measurement like when charging at 1.2A? | 01:34 |
| ShadowJK | btw temperature is reported by bq27200, not b24150 | 01:34 |
| Estel_ | good point | 01:34 |
| Estel_ | having in mind that it seems bo be charging @ 1050 anyway... Do You mean battery reported voltage? | 01:35 |
| Estel_ | ...PS drop, or something else | 01:36 |
| Estel_ | ? | 01:36 |
| ShadowJK | voltage reported by the charge script | 01:36 |
| Estel_ | 3955 mV ATM | 01:36 |
| ShadowJK | current? | 01:36 |
| Estel_ | with 33 % state of charge | 01:37 |
| ShadowJK | current in screen off/idle etc if your xterm scrolls up | 01:37 |
| Estel_ | when I'm using device, 860 mA, so it's about 1050 mA real | 01:37 |
| Estel_ | on idle, 1040 and doesn't want go higher | 01:37 |
| Estel_ | measuring via bq27200.sh it's ~25 mA less, due to additional power being pulled | 01:38 |
| ShadowJK | exact same datasource for the two | 01:38 |
| Estel_ | (as by using, I mean wifi on and Xchat and screen on on moderate brightness) | 01:38 |
| ShadowJK | I estimate voltage at charging chip output is about 4150mV | 01:39 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, not likely, bq27200.sh going in background in loop eat some power | 01:39 |
| ShadowJK | so it's probably limited there | 01:39 |
| Estel_ | I see | 01:39 |
| ShadowJK | So is charge script :P | 01:39 |
| Estel_ | true:P | 01:39 |
| Estel_ | so it's probably normal fluctuation | 01:39 |
| Estel_ | ok, so if voltage output from chip is limited, most important question - risk of it being stressed too much is high? | 01:40 |
| ShadowJK | The .13 Ohm resistance I've observed seems not entirely linear wrt current.. | 01:40 |
| Estel_ | hm | 01:40 |
| ShadowJK | Well I'd look at what jacekowski wrote | 01:40 |
| Estel_ | re "quite impossible to estimate it, as they have designed it for certain usage"? | 01:41 |
| Estel_ | btw, is b24150 accesible on motherboard, after removing shield plates? would like to measure it's temp | 01:42 |
| Estel_ | as You've made good point about temperature being measured on bq27200 | 01:43 |
| Estel_ | hm, current raised to average 913 mA during usage, wtf? | 01:43 |
| Estel_ | at 38% soc | 01:44 |
| TamyrRRRR | Estel: Am I correct in thinking that this discussion is related to the custom case you are building for the n900? | 01:44 |
| Estel_ | TamyrRRRR, thanks for asking :) well, only slightly - I'm checking possibilities of faster native charging | 01:44 |
| Estel_ | as it is possible, that custom case will have possibility for housing batteries as big as 6800 mAh | 01:45 |
| Estel_ | (and even current batteries fitting in mugen cover are 3A) | 01:45 |
| Estel_ | I hopes for at least 1.5A charging, but it seems 1050 mA is absolute maximum | 01:46 |
| Estel_ | effective, at least | 01:46 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, http://enivax.net/jk/forestel/charge21.sh.txt | 01:46 |
| Estel_ | as for custom body, I've recorded some (nothing special) videos of cnc machine working on wood | 01:46 |
| ShadowJK | I'd lake paste of charging with that script | 01:46 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, ok, getting it | 01:47 |
| ShadowJK | I copied and edited on webserver, untested on actual devices ;P | 01:47 |
| Estel_ | wasn't available on server. Typo in urkl? | 01:47 |
| Estel_ | ok, ok, I'll check it before running :P | 01:47 |
| TamyrRRRR | Estel: Neat. Good luck with both the case and the faster charging :) | 01:48 |
| ShadowJK | http://enivax.net/jk/n900/forestel/charge21.sh.txt | 01:48 |
| Estel_ | thanks a lot :) | 01:48 |
| ShadowJK | ah, n900 bit was missing | 01:48 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, figured it out at same moment ;) | 01:48 |
| Estel_ | I'm ash-compliant only, doesn't matter? | 01:50 |
| ShadowJK | It does not | 01:50 |
| Estel_ | nah, original is also for bash as per shebang | 01:50 |
| Estel_ | yep | 01:50 |
| ShadowJK | I wrote this on device, with sdk tools nano (which crashes randomly), and on device busybox... | 01:51 |
| ShadowJK | originally, that is :P | 01:51 |
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| ShadowJK | Also at the time I was under the impression and belief that neither bash nor ash supports binary arithmetic.. that's why all bit manipulation is in integer arithmetic, lol | 01:52 |
| Estel_ | :) it's running, what to report? | 01:53 |
| * Sicelo finally gives up on u-boot. will simply tag it 'incompatible' with this particular N900 | 01:53 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: what is your USB-curlim in charge.sh? | 01:53 |
| ShadowJK | Load pastebin in web browser on N900. Switch to xterm. Press enter to make a mark. Lock screen, wait a minute, unlock screen, copy/paste xterm contents to pastebin :P | 01:53 |
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| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, I dont remember charge.sh anymore, but in 21 it's unlimited | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since I-max-bat = I-max-usb / 5v * U-bat | 01:54 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, ok. Am I mistaked, or does this version of charge separate current used by system, somehow? | 01:54 |
| ShadowJK | I thought you already had that version... | 01:55 |
| ShadowJK | But yes, it tries to calculate that. I just adjusted the parameters to assume 1250mA | 01:55 |
| louisdk | Hi. What's the name of the N900 backup-folder? | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: might actually be the truth. Your NNAD might have too many bad blocks so uBoot+kernel doesn't fit into mtd | 01:55 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, I told You You had some oldie, that charged with 1050 max as per default (0x50) | 01:55 |
| louisdk | ~/.backups or? | 01:55 |
| ShadowJK | "backups" | 01:55 |
| ShadowJK | on MyDocs or mmc1 | 01:56 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, nice. Will paste zerobin in a minute or so, brb | 01:56 |
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| Sicelo | DocScrutinizer05: i hope it's not that. gawd :P | 01:56 |
| louisdk | ShadowJK, thanks | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: I think all that calculation of "true battery current" is kinda guesstimate | 01:58 |
| ShadowJK | Of course. | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *only* proper way to implement that: temprarily stop charge, read current flow _from_ battery as that's what system is jist ATM consuming | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe even use those real values to calibrate your guesswork-parameters | 02:01 |
| ShadowJK | It's far off when the current is fluctuating, but when I plotted against "known" consumption whilst charging, it was +-20mA at the start of the charge, and then drifted off to being 50% inaccurate near end of charge.. or other way around, I forget :-) | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, you could at least try to either pick a period with low fluctuations, or calm the system ;-) | 02:02 |
| ShadowJK | Part of it is assumption of voltage drop across the circuit board.. Everytime an N900 has broken for me, I've reran calibration of this loss estimate on the new spare N900, which has as zero load as possible, and each time I've adjusted it upwards with a couple of mR :-) | 02:03 |
| ShadowJK | iirc I started somewhere at .125 ... .128, and now I'm at .132 | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | statistic | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | static? | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | noise! | 02:04 |
| ShadowJK | However, the second and third assumption is that the charger chip sense resistor is .068, and that the bq27200 sense resistor is .021 :) | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you also assume bq24150 has pretty exact voltage/current limit | 02:05 |
| ShadowJK | .021 obtained from the MeeGo boys with their test jigs and lab psus | 02:05 |
| ShadowJK | yes, that too | 02:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, .021 is correct for sure, since we get proper capacity readings with it | 02:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | errr | 02:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do we? | 02:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep we do | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | multiplier for charge is a function of RS | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/charge/capacity_now/. | 02:08 |
| ShadowJK | There's probably another assumption one could make, assume offline mode idle drain is constant, and then gather data for voltage and current when charging, and solve for the 3 resistances... | 02:08 |
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| ShadowJK | with bq27200 sense R as 21mR I was getting <1100mAh on my old nokia BL-5J (was 1250-ish new), and getting 1400 on dealextreme "Japod" BL-5J | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I got 1320..1350 on new bl-5j | 02:09 |
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| ShadowJK | The japod is magic though, it maintains low Z for almost forever | 02:10 |
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| ShadowJK | http://enivax.net/jk/n900/volt.png I wish I could figure out a way to represent what I mean better than this, but move your pointer to the start of the "Cliff", where the voltage drops like it fell off of a cliff, notice on the Y axis at what voltage the cliff happens | 02:13 |
| ShadowJK | It's significantly higher for the japod compared to the rest (let's ignore the brick-size mugen) | 02:14 |
| ShadowJK | So when b27200 says 1400mAh capacity for japod, the thing where bq assumes 3248mV is at 6% battery cap comes into play :) | 02:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, estel's concern about choke in stepdown converter bq24150 is valid. Depending on job sourcing did, it might run into saturation with 1200+mA and that's not really a good thing | 02:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on GTA02 I even heard of chockes that desoldered themselves (or was it actually N900?) | 02:19 |
| RiD | GTA02 lol. Grand Theft Auto | 02:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Gotta Think Aboutit | 02:19 |
| RiD | Zero Two | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | scratch the zero | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm dizzy | 02:20 |
| RiD | increase your font size | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | won't help | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | i'm usually not looking at what I type | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I look at the kbd | 02:21 |
| RiD | you suck then. I can't look at my keyboard | 02:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or at the text I'm answering | 02:22 |
| RiD | all the keys wore out | 02:22 |
| RiD | (Ok, i'm being dramatic. But it sure doesn't look like new.) | 02:22 |
| RiD | when the keyboard led strikes in, it looks really ugly | 02:22 |
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| RiD | backspace key is a shame. It has no symbol in it, you can actually see the small dots of light in there. | 02:23 |
| ShadowJK | Where did estel go | 02:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | apropos, this afternoon I found N950-kbd-backlight is such a dim crap they could've saved it all together | 02:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nfc | 02:23 |
| RiD | i would love to get a spare keyboard but you know how it is, chinese keyboard clones suck | 02:24 |
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| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05, I stopped using 1200mA charge rate after I went on a road trip with N900+2400mAh battery, my N900 streaming music over 3g, sygic mobile maps running, fm transmitter activated. It was nice, the music faded out and the voice nav told me where to go, music faded back in. When I arrived at destination my N900 was like 55C :s | 02:25 |
| ShadowJK | And the music/voicenav came through car speakers, not N900 speakers :D | 02:25 |
| RiD | 55ºC only? Ooh please, i forgot my N900 in my oven | 02:27 |
| ShadowJK | N900 sitting in 55C ambient isn't as bad as N900 disspating enough energy to heat itself to 55C, because in the latter case there'll be very small components that are considerably hotter than 55C :P | 02:29 |
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| RiD | and therefore frying eggs | 02:30 |
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| RiD | one day i should try frying eggs with my passive 8600GT gpu that is hanging somewhere | 02:31 |
| RiD | that thing would reach 115ºC easily. the site says 105ºC is the limit | 02:32 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, sorry for delay - my son waked up, and I needed to sing some lullababies :) | 02:32 |
| Estel_ | here is the link | 02:32 |
| Estel_ | http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?8fa5034cd4d8227f#gjq0EONBU95Mgx4blSA6bsoXO4hJwxbBP+7RK9Ehnss= | 02:32 |
| Estel_ | it's funny, as now, when device is in use, it's rather: | 02:34 |
| Estel_ | Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 Wall: 1 Voltage: 4077 NAC: 1786 level: 64 % Rate: 794 System: -137 Ch: 931 Compensated: | 02:34 |
| ShadowJK | lol, double negative... | 02:34 |
| Estel_ | how accurate is system load measurement? | 02:34 |
| ShadowJK | it's a guess | 02:34 |
| Estel_ | based on? | 02:35 |
| ShadowJK | You missed the conversation on it :) | 02:35 |
| Estel_ | and why double negative? | 02:35 |
| Estel_ | ah, I see | 02:35 |
| Estel_ | will check logs | 02:35 |
| ShadowJK | It's based on assuming that the charging chip sense resistor is 68mR, that the battery gauge sense resistor is 21mR, that the circuit board losses between charging chip and battery is 132mR, and that the charging chip is able to charge at the full requested rate | 02:35 |
| ShadowJK | double negative Isn't Supposed to Happen(TM) :) | 02:36 |
| ShadowJK | Means one of the above assumptions are wrong | 02:36 |
| Estel_ | ;) | 02:36 |
| * Estel_ opens own link for investigation | 02:37 | |
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| Estel_ | a-ha. This thing | 02:37 |
| ShadowJK | The expected power use when idle is something like 20mA, so it's off by like 30mA ;-) | 02:37 |
| Estel_ | some lines later, it is single negative only, but generally, yep | 02:37 |
| Estel_ | I wonder how it is in case of higher load, as in: | 02:38 |
| ShadowJK | Also, the CH value being less than 1250 means that the charge has reached the CV portion, and that hte voltage at the charging chip is close to 4.2V | 02:38 |
| Estel_ | <Estel_> Status: 0x10 Mode: CHARGING Full: 0 Wall: 1 Voltage: 4077 NAC: 1786 level: 64 % Rate: 794 System: -137 Ch: 931 Compensated: | 02:38 |
| Estel_ | it would be 1100 mA | 02:39 |
| Estel_ | at this point of charge? | 02:39 |
| Estel_ | yea | 02:39 |
| Estel_ | but, but, also, remember that even on 3995 mV and almost empty battery it wasn't 1250, it seems | 02:40 |
| ShadowJK | It's guesstimating that the current rate provided by the charger is 932mA, the system uses 137mA, and that leaves the 794mA going into the battery. The 794mA is actually measured | 02:40 |
| Estel_ | ough | 02:40 |
| Estel_ | so I took it wrong | 02:40 |
| ShadowJK | 931* | 02:41 |
| ShadowJK | Double negative system implies that energy is being added through some unknown path :) | 02:41 |
| Estel_ | i though that 931 is charge after gusstimation, with additional 137 for system | 02:41 |
| ShadowJK | But that's not possible, so it's really just showing that the assumptions made are not correct. | 02:41 |
| Estel_ | :) | 02:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Estel_, pong? | 02:42 |
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| ShadowJK | Also at 64%, it is expected that the battery is no longer accepting full charge rate. | 02:42 |
| Estel_ | Any way to improve guesstimations basing on that data? | 02:42 |
| Estel_ | GeneralAntilles, thanks, but I have no idea what I wanted few days ago :( | 02:42 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, yea. | 02:43 |
| ShadowJK | Change CR=132 to CR=133 maybe | 02:43 |
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| Estel_ | wut? | 02:43 |
| Estel_ | aaa | 02:43 |
| Estel_ | I see | 02:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Estel_, feel free to memoserv. | 02:43 |
| Estel_ | thanks GeneralAntilles :) | 02:43 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, as expected, temperature reported by bq27200 dropped to 42 C (from 46 C), same goes, of course, for cell temp | 02:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what friggin cell temp? | 02:45 |
| ShadowJK | he has external thermometer on his battery | 02:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | duh | 02:45 |
| Estel_ | well, it seems that I will charge few cycles with max current, then post results on TMO's battery's thread, with big red fat warning about concerns made by jacekowski, and that only guinea pigs should try it... Then, continue to use it myself for few months | 02:46 |
| Estel_ | and report back again | 02:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: you also should read chanlog for my concerns | 02:46 |
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| Estel_ | If all volunteer guinea pigs will be OK so far, we don't have, probably, much to fear ;) | 02:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which are basically confirming jacekowski's | 02:46 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, sure, will do it now | 02:47 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, actually I'd be interested in a paste from the start of charge from "empty".. Something like ./charge21.sh | tee chargelog.txt | 02:47 |
| ShadowJK | And then paste/attach/email/dcc me the chargelog.txt :) | 02:47 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, sure, I'll do it on next cycle | 02:47 |
| Estel_ | how many lines from empty? as much as it will generate until full ;) or interested only in some first ones? | 02:48 |
| ShadowJK | Also mention to the guinea pigs that I used 1250mA charge rate on my first N900, and I also used a thermal throttle to limit charging when temperature got warm, and this thermal limit is not present in this script.. And, my first N900 died. | 02:48 |
| Estel_ | ooook... BTW, how it died? | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually if choke runs into saturation, temerature increase at start of charging empty battery will be *significantly* higer than on 950mA limited | 02:48 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, if you usually charge it full, then yeah | 02:48 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, sim card missing | 02:48 |
| ShadowJK | aka cellular modem fault | 02:49 |
| joga | I'm so worried my n900 will die some day and there will be no replacement :( | 02:49 |
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| ShadowJK | My second N900 also died that way, and I hadn't abused that one at all.. But let's not mention that to the guinea pigs. They deserve a good warning. | 02:49 |
| Estel_ | I see, that one. Sure, will report it too. BTW, considering all of this, increase from 950 to 1250 seems quite low gain, but I'll probably do it for sake of experiment and curiosity | 02:50 |
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| joga | I've used it heavily but apparently gently enough that it still works fine | 02:50 |
| Estel_ | joga, do like me and buy 8 of them | 02:50 |
| Estel_ | ;) | 02:50 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, yes, the reason I asked for log from start of charge, is to see how early the actual charge current drops below 950 with your megabattery :) | 02:50 |
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| joga | Estel_ if only I had money for such, there's many available at the local auction site as we speak | 02:50 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, sure, I'll try to scary them As much as humanly possible | 02:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: heating by charging should only be a fraction of what a system at full cpu load creates | 02:51 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, Well it's 1.2A over .5R | 02:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O ??? | 02:51 |
| ShadowJK | .13 from PCB, .4 from battery? | 02:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | even it that's correct it only is a humble 0.6W | 02:52 |
| ShadowJK | yeah | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly doubt that .130 from PCB | 02:53 |
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| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, as for choke saturating, You mean temperature gain measurable via bq27200, or one exclusive to b42150? | 02:54 |
| Estel_ | joga, I also don't have money for such - I just convinced whole family to switch their android shits for N900's, so I bought 15 devices at once. some sold on TMO; after reinforcing ports... | 02:54 |
| Estel_ | = it turned out to be quite cheap per device :P | 02:54 |
| Estel_ | well, maybe, just maybe, jolla will deliver. | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I rather think bq24150 never been built to be a reference voltage source | 02:54 |
| joga | Estel_ I sure hope something comes out of it...or similar | 02:54 |
| ShadowJK | Well, Li-Ion needs +-.05V precision | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: since they all are close to each other, you'll notice at bq27200 as well | 02:55 |
| joga | I just recently updated some stuff and browsed the repos again and found so much cool things | 02:55 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, all right, will watch it closely when charging from extra-empty (like 100 mAh charge or so) | 02:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: only on end of charge where current is low | 02:55 |
| joga | nice thing about this phone is that it seems to get a lot better in time instead of becoming obsolete :) | 02:55 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, is this a dual lucialiu thingy | 02:56 |
| Estel_ | joga, yeah :) if only ram would be upgradeable... :P | 02:56 |
| ShadowJK | Or dual japod or what | 02:56 |
| joga | yeah | 02:56 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, yes, but lucialui doesn't sold real ones anymore :( | 02:56 |
| Estel_ | no, not japod | 02:56 |
| ShadowJK | :( | 02:56 |
| ShadowJK | I forget what her batteries were called | 02:56 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, scud | 02:56 |
| ShadowJK | ah | 02:56 |
| Estel_ | well, scud is now only ~1300, like genuine, so rather overpriced | 02:57 |
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| Estel_ | BTW, some time ago I've sold 2 last dual ones on TMO, but one guy cancelled order due to some receiving problems, and battery will return soob. I'll sell it on TMO, probably | 02:57 |
| Estel_ | aka last dual scud known to exist :P | 02:57 |
| Estel_ | (last unused) | 02:58 |
| ShadowJK | Weirdly, I'm doing fine with single battery :P | 02:58 |
| Estel_ | but I really hope for putting 2x 18650 3.4 Phillips'es into modified body. I've measured it, and it's only 2mm thicker than mugen cover on stock body | 02:58 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, weren't You mugen battery owner? | 02:59 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 02:59 |
| ShadowJK | I only used it for like less than a year, heh | 02:59 |
| Estel_ | well, due to load being cut in half, many people report ~3200 effective capacity of dual scud | 02:59 |
| Estel_ | I see | 02:59 |
| ShadowJK | never used it with second (RIP) N900 or third (current) N900 :P | 02:59 |
| ShadowJK | Also it's slightly swollen :P | 03:00 |
| Estel_ | wasn't it comfortable with bogger cover? | 03:00 |
| Estel_ | I see | 03:00 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 03:00 |
| ShadowJK | I did like the bigger cover | 03:00 |
| Estel_ | Well, I must say that I like bigger cover more - easier to write on hardware keyboard, + this better grip | 03:00 |
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| Estel_ | You know, material used for mugen cover is less slippery | 03:01 |
| * ShadowJK has 3 of those covers actually, one of them home modified to support camera and microsd | 03:01 | |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, support camera and microSD? does it mean You had old ones that have"'t supported it? | 03:01 |
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| ShadowJK | Yes | 03:01 |
| Estel_ | for some years, mugen covers have silly switch for camera and magnet | 03:01 |
| ShadowJK | The first batch of covers didn't have magnet or camera switch | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL | 03:02 |
| Estel_ | I glued this magnet to N900 corpus, anyway, and I've modified cover to have real camera lens cover, like stock | 03:02 |
| ShadowJK | Mugen redesigned cover to add magnet and camera switch, and sent two covers to everyone with the old cover. | 03:02 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, I was aware about camera, but magnet? :P | 03:02 |
| Estel_ | sounds nice | 03:02 |
| Estel_ | thats why You have 3 :P | 03:02 |
| ShadowJK | yeah | 03:03 |
| Estel_ | well, protecting camera via own slide cover was kinda priority for me | 03:03 |
| ShadowJK | I agree that the less slippery surface of the mugen cover is more comfortable | 03:03 |
| Estel_ | I've put tutorial somewhere on TMO for modding it like that | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do they actually exploit the additional space? | 03:03 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, nope, only for battery | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah for battery | 03:03 |
| Estel_ | advantage is that it have plenty room for mods | 03:03 |
| ShadowJK | As a bonus, the mugen cover gets rid of the problem with N900 flash blinding its own camera | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like getting multiple cells or custom shaped cell | 03:04 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, as for battery, sure, it's 2x bigger. But capacity is crappy for 80 USD or how much it costs | 03:04 |
| ShadowJK | let me find the mugen cell, it's kinda silly | 03:04 |
| Estel_ | custom shaped | 03:04 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, yea, this flash thing ;) | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh flash - how did they handle that? | 03:05 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, the funny fact is that dual-scud costed 2x less, and being dual cell, it had 3Ah power vs mugen'ish 2400 mAh | 03:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also, isn't the camera door to small when so far away from lens? | 03:05 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, simple - no chrome border, no blue parts :P | 03:05 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, no, it's big enough | 03:05 |
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| Estel_ | no ill effects re photos, equally the opposite, better ones | 03:06 |
| ShadowJK | oh no, I found my original mugen cover, and the magnet has escaped! | 03:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol | 03:06 |
| Estel_ | silly thing is that there is NO slide'able cover for camera, it's exposed all the time. Only switch for hardware detection | 03:06 |
| ShadowJK | but the white strip I added for camera is still there | 03:06 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, but it's quite easy to mod it for adding real slide cover for camera, like stock, with auto detection working too | 03:07 |
| Estel_ | white strip? So You had camera detected as "on" all the time? | 03:07 |
| Estel_ | no ill effects on power usage? | 03:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2400mAh, muge... er muhahahaha | 03:08 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, ? :) | 03:08 |
| ShadowJK | no ill effects on power | 03:08 |
| Estel_ | capacity isn't funny, only price is :P | 03:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with a cover like mugen, i'd cram at least 5 cells in there, for ~4000mah | 03:09 |
| Estel_ | btw, using custom shaped cell, they could, for holy hell's sake, upgrade it for better capacity, with time | 03:09 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, kinda impossible re free volume | 03:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's what I meant | 03:09 |
| Estel_ | though about using more smaller cells, or one bigger | 03:09 |
| Estel_ | it doesn't turn out better than dual scud | 03:10 |
| Estel_ | re flat cells available | 03:10 |
| Estel_ | well, 18650 is gonna change everything, if it works out okey'ish :P | 03:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | severla smaller cells would for sure result in better capacity than mugen | 03:10 |
| Estel_ | 2 of them summing up for 6.8 A is kinda... well | 03:10 |
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| ShadowJK | http://enivax.net/jk/n900/mugen.jpg | 03:11 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I've checked flat cells capacities on different size and volume available, and it was slightly better than mugen, but not better than dual scud. Not to mention price increase | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how much higher is the mugen? | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh fsck! | 03:12 |
| ShadowJK | .75mm higher than 2 BL-5J | 03:12 |
| ShadowJK | :P | 03:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ? | 03:12 |
| Estel_ | ough, this N900 looks kinda unused | 03:12 |
| Estel_ | well, it's almost like 2 bl-5j | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, and wasting all the empty space around battery | 03:13 |
| Estel_ | that's why dual scud fits there fine | 03:13 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, yea ;) | 03:13 |
| Estel_ | Well, I use that space around battery how "grip" holding spare microSD card | 03:13 |
| Estel_ | s/how/for/ | 03:14 |
| infobot | Estel_ meant: Well, I use that space around battery for "grip" holding spare microSD card | 03:14 |
| ShadowJK | The new cover has a crossbeam that reaches down to the "hole" below the camera lens, this beam extens across teh width of the n900 | 03:14 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, could You, kindly, modify bot to listen to me? It's kinda silly to do: | 03:14 |
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| hdfgd | ~n900 | 03:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd find cells that are as long as N900 is high, and place several of them all on the back, covering all available area | 03:14 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, n900 is a wooden box with stained cans inside and a beer | 03:14 |
| *** hdfgd is now known as Estel_ | 03:14 | |
| Estel_ | ...just to use factoids :P | 03:14 |
| ShadowJK | ooh actually bigger than that | 03:14 |
| * ShadowJK finds unused mugen cover in original plastic bag | 03:15 | |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, the thing is that 18650, despite cylindrical size, offer better capacity per volume than flat ones | 03:15 |
| ShadowJK | still covered in protective plastic foil | 03:15 |
| ShadowJK | :P | 03:15 |
| Estel_ | not to mention being much cheaper, even best ones | 03:16 |
| Estel_ | due to popularity, etc | 03:16 |
| Estel_ | single 18650 have - right now - reliable 3.4A capacity, so 2 of them, despite "wasted" space around cyllinders, are still better than flat ones using same volume and exploiting this space | 03:17 |
| Estel_ | fully | 03:17 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, btw, I'm planning to make "better grip" surface on custom backcover (for custom body, or seperate) too | 03:18 |
| ShadowJK | http://enivax.net/jk/n900/mugencover1.jpg http://enivax.net/jk/n900/mugencover2.jpg | 03:18 |
| Estel_ | and better kickstand .P | 03:18 |
| Estel_ | and this lovely port for external antenna, on custom body... | 03:19 |
| Estel_ | antennas * | 03:19 |
| Estel_ | ...and this lovely messing with ground plane... :P | 03:20 |
| cehteh | and contacts for a charger stand | 03:23 |
| cehteh | (or a coil .. inductive charging ftw) | 03:23 |
| japh | http://devel.japh.se/n950/fm/20120706_001.jpg | 03:24 |
| ShadowJK | fm antenna? :) | 03:24 |
| japh | yep :) | 03:24 |
| japh | docscrutinizer05, 11:02 ❌ doc|home japh: ping me later in the weekend <- not sure if that was you? | 03:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20120715_003.jpg http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20120715_004.jpg | 03:26 |
| japh | :o | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope | 03:27 |
| japh | oh he *was* here. doc|home, ping. | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 3*1300mAh | 03:27 |
| cehteh | haha .. if you dont need the cam, i am sure you find 3 batteries which fit :P | 03:28 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, anyway way to sensibly check if choke in our step down converter isn't going into saturation? | 03:28 |
| Estel_ | You know, with shields took out | 03:28 |
| japh | docscrutinizer05, nice work! | 03:28 |
| Estel_ | and some tool touching b42150 pins... | 03:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: the choke is the black cube next to bq24150 | 03:28 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, as for batteries, forget about place for camera? | 03:29 |
| Estel_ | ouh | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | made of ferrite ceramic | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | place for camera? | 03:29 |
| Estel_ | You can't use whole N900's lenght | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't | 03:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | isn't the first photo clear enough? | 03:30 |
| Estel_ | I see, but it is little too long to close cover | 03:30 |
| Estel_ | batteries too long | 03:30 |
| Estel_ | tried that already :P | 03:30 |
| Estel_ | even with cells without heads with pins, no way to close cover (big one) | 03:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, since I picked 'random' batteries to do those snapshots as we chat | 03:31 |
| Estel_ | ah | 03:31 |
| Estel_ | hm, dr_frost_dk have hundreds of batteries lying around, I'll forward idea to him | 03:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and still I think with plastic cut off they would fit into mugen | 03:31 |
| Estel_ | maybe some model is better suited | 03:31 |
| Estel_ | as for choke black cube | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (those were GTA02 batteries) | 03:32 |
| Estel_ | any way to measure something about it? or only temperature? | 03:32 |
| cehteh | http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=86&LiPoConfig=1&sortlist=&CatSortOrder=desc ..see if you find something :) | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with a scope you could find out about current or magnetic field | 03:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but temperature is a pretty good indicator, as this thing should stay cool until it gets fsckng hot | 03:34 |
| RiD | fsck | 03:34 |
| Estel_ | btw, ShadowJK, here is tutorial for adding simple but effective camera slider to mugen cover v 2.0 | 03:35 |
| Estel_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1038196&postcount=799 | 03:35 |
| Estel_ | (i.e. one with fixed design, like those 2 You have) | 03:35 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I'll put thermal sensor to this cube, when charging from empty | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | most significantly temp will drop sharply with battery pulling a lil bit less current | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in case it comes out of saturation eventually | 03:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but honestly I doubt Nokia did SUCH botch | 03:37 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, btw, what are those charging status'es shown when starting charge.sh, like 0x10? | 03:37 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, I hope so :P | 03:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | finding a good choke isn't simple, and chip manufs suggest particular build&manuf they tested | 03:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and that one is fit for chip max ratings | 03:38 |
| Estel_ | so 1250 should be fine and happy, in theory. | 03:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 03:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise I wouldn't have stated "charging is safe no matter what you do" | 03:39 |
| Estel_ | ok, going to sleep. ShadowJK, if You answer later, I'll check chanlogs :) | 03:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I only later noticed there's *theoretical* possibility of Nokia building crap here | 03:40 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, yea, well, we will test it, but for now, it looks good | 03:40 |
| ShadowJK | Estel_, they're the raw status value as returned by the charger chip | 03:40 |
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| ShadowJK | their meaning is in the datasheet.. | 03:40 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, ok, how to interpret them? | 03:40 |
| Estel_ | ah | 03:40 |
| Estel_ | thanks a lot | 03:40 |
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| Estel_ | bb and good night! | 03:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | one of the meansings is "overheat" | 03:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meansong | 03:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems booson(2).sh script does proper decoding, and I thought i've seen similar thing in more recent charger scripts of ShadowJK? | 03:43 |
| ShadowJK | yes, decodes to /home/user/MyDocs/charge.log | 03:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw the meaning doesn't change much between boost and charge | 03:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: oh wait, isn't the 0x10 at start the general status and not the error? | 03:45 |
| ShadowJK | It's "In Progress" | 03:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lyep | 03:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sth like that | 03:46 |
| ShadowJK | 0x10 and 0x90, the other bit is for gpio status | 03:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OTG aka fastcharger | 03:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though not reliable as musbcore messing with 1707 config | 03:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: btw if your script would monitor softstart, it could determine max USB current available for next retry | 03:50 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 03:50 |
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| RiD | yes this is rid | 04:03 |
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| jacekowski | DocScrutinizer05: well, slightly smaller inductor | 04:15 |
| jacekowski | hmmm | 04:16 |
| jacekowski | no | 04:16 |
| jacekowski | hmm, capacitor is smaller than in reference design | 04:18 |
| jacekowski | a lot smaller, 100n in n900 and 10uF in reference design | 04:19 |
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| ShadowJK | on the output side? | 04:23 |
| jacekowski | yes | 04:25 |
| ShadowJK | Are you familiar with the charger design before N900? :-) | 04:26 |
| jacekowski | no | 04:26 |
| jacekowski | not on phones | 04:26 |
| jacekowski | but generally yes | 04:27 |
| ShadowJK | Before N900, the DC adapter was current limited to 900mA, and charge regulation was basically a single mosfet switched on and off at 1Hz. :-) | 04:27 |
| jacekowski | on NITs or generally nokia phones? | 04:28 |
| jacekowski | but well, those chargers were 3.7V for a reason | 04:29 |
| ShadowJK | All nokia phones of same generation as NITs :-) | 04:29 |
| ShadowJK | They actually output somewhere above 5.2V and less than 12V | 04:29 |
| jacekowski | basically most of charging was done by a charger | 04:29 |
| jacekowski | it says 3.7V on the charger | 04:29 |
| ShadowJK | Below 4.8V there was a linear regulation mode | 04:29 |
| ShadowJK | The "fast charger" above 5.2 was 1Hz pwm :- | 04:30 |
| ShadowJK | :-) | 04:30 |
| jacekowski | well, bq isn't that much different | 04:30 |
| ShadowJK | It would accept 12V, if the supply was current limited to 100mA | 04:30 |
| jacekowski | it's just much faster | 04:30 |
| ShadowJK | The first two batteris in my N810 caused reboots because bme aborted when the battery voltage during "ON" stage climbed above 4.55 :-) | 04:31 |
| ShadowJK | 'ftd' gives insight into the voltages observed during charger on and charger off.. Also it's pretty amusing looking at a dc amp needle waving back and forth between .8A and 0A :-) | 04:32 |
| RiD | boom doom bye | 04:33 |
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| ShadowJK | My N800 backlight varies in brightness too when the charger is switched on and off... on my N810 it doesn't | 04:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | vlol | 04:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL* | 04:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jacekowski: 100n vs 10µ is basically irrelevant on output | 04:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a) battery is supposed to have an own 100µF somewhere, for modem. b) as long as the C can take one choke power quantum, it's just fine | 04:37 |
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| ShadowJK | My "server" pc has 3 different kind of USB ports. Back panel ones attached to motherboard, front panel ones in a 3.5" drive bay, and ports attached to a PCI backplate. The ones on the PCI backplate have extra capacitors on the power rails. The front usb port wont charge N900, at any current limit configured into bq24150, except when battery is near full. The PCI plate ports will charge N900 even when N900 battery is low, and N900 charger configured to no | 04:40 |
| ShadowJK | limit... | 04:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the more interesting/relevant question regarding choke saturations is operation mode of stepdown converter: is it freq-regulated, or pulse pause regulated (waiting with next constant length charging step for a variable time, possibly quantisized), or will it actually do PWM to the amount/duration of energy stored to choke in one cycle? | 04:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only the last mode is prone to resulting in possible saturation | 04:44 |
| * ShadowJK knows nothing of step-down converters, but vaguely recalls something like pulse pause mentioned in datasheet | 04:44 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, leaving out whole steps | 04:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cycles | 04:44 |
| ShadowJK | it had a funny acronym | 04:44 |
| ShadowJK | something with p and q in it? | 04:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pqm? | 04:45 |
| ShadowJK | I probably remember wrong and now you're thinking "wtf" and have to go read the datasheet | 04:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pulse quantity modulation? | 04:45 |
| ShadowJK | perhaps | 04:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually called pulse pause modulation iirc | 04:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and no, I won't try to find the datasheet on this mess in a bottle of this new laptop | 04:48 |
| ShadowJK | :P | 04:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my whole old laptop is a dir in my ~ | 04:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I needed to dig that DS out there | 04:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since no bookmarks in new clean browser | 04:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: (old chargers tagged "4,8V" or whatever) they got some defined Z, so that's why it's somewhat not completely gaga to use them directly to charge a LiIon | 04:53 |
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| ShadowJK | there's actually a spec for how to be compatible with them | 04:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I had a damn hard time to charge my 6210 from a stabilized universal PSU as on 4.5V it wasn't really charging, and at 6V it eventually blew chunks on too low battery charging | 04:55 |
| ShadowJK | I remembered name of document, weirdly after elopacalypse nokia.com isn't first hit anymore, but here it is: http://www.herjulf.se/solar/charge-station/Nokia_2-mm_DC_Charging_Interface_Specification_v1_2_en.pdf | 04:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the funny bit: this 1Hz PWM charger concept with ancient BME kept my LiIon battery fresh for ~7 years of permanent usage and daily charging | 04:57 |
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| ShadowJK | a low rate charger would be sufficient :) | 04:59 |
| ShadowJK | or low voltage (<5V) | 04:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks | 05:04 |
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| ShadowJK | Or then just occasionally Nokia sources good quality batteries | 05:06 |
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| ShadowJK | It's weird that the Mugen battery in my N800 has outlasted 2 original Nokia batteries in N810 | 05:07 |
| ShadowJK | (original-formfactor mugen) | 05:07 |
| ShadowJK | You'd think Nokia would source better quality than random asian manufacturers :/ | 05:07 |
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| Hurrian | Arrived at Delivery Facility in MANILA - PHILIPPINES, THE | 09:19 |
| Hurrian | woohoo, my device's out of customs. | 09:19 |
| ShadowJK | another N900? nice | 09:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | GeneralAntilles: toxic? me? look at #harnattan to learn what's toxic | 14:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the worst thing: since he's pretending to know everything and he actually knows just a bit about aegis and kde, I'm afraid several users would conceive kickbanning him to me "toxic" as well, while the other half of users placed him on their /ignore and thus the whole channel sounds silly | 14:11 |
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| Stskeeps | naah | 14:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | s/to me/to be/ | 14:20 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: <RzR> Sun Jul 15 11:57:40 CEST 2012 <RzR> 3min and morning is over over here <djszapi_> less than 3 ;) -- yes Sir, everybody in here is assumed to be able to read time values like 11:57:40. if something ends in 2min20 it doesn't mean the statement... | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha, infobot does cross-channel s/// | 14:21 |
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| Raimu | https://mysocialcloud.com/#!/security -- "one of the things that makes the site so secure is that we do not disclose the exact encryption practices." | 14:49 |
| Raimu | Yes, we all know SbO works so well. ;p | 14:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Raimu: the WTF of the weekend? | 15:31 |
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| Raimu | "The other sites get hacked because they tell the evil hackers what encryption they use, so we don't! This is a surefire security method!" | 15:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no verbatim quote, I hope | 15:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or I'll die in ROTFL | 15:37 |
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| Raimu | The first one yes, the second one not. :P | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | let's take bets how long til "evil hackers" feel like "I'll teach you about SbO" | 15:39 |
| Raimu | Not too long. | 15:40 |
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| esaym153 | is there any fix for the bug in bme in the n810 that causes the device to reboot when being charged other than buying a new battery? | 20:05 |
| Stskeeps | not any public one :/ | 20:06 |
| esaym153 | Stskeeps: so I can't get it? | 20:06 |
| Stskeeps | i think the maemo organisation is pretty much gone by now in nokia | 20:06 |
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| esaym153 | so no fix? | 20:08 |
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| Stskeeps | AFAIK | 20:08 |
| esaym153 | rats | 20:08 |
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| dfgfdg | ~seen freemangordon | 20:13 |
| infobot | freemangordon <freemangor@130-204-50-168.2074221835.ddns.cablebg.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo-ssu, 5d 9h 43m 50s ago, saying: 'kerio: no KP51 for you :P'. | 20:13 |
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| kerio | dammit, stop pinging me when looking for fmg :c | 20:13 |
| Sicelo | :P | 20:14 |
| Sicelo | it means you talk to the wrong people | 20:14 |
| Sicelo | :D | 20:14 |
| kerio | ~seen merlin1991 | 20:16 |
| infobot | merlin1991 is currently on #maemo #harmattan #maemo-ssu. Has said a total of 31 messages. Is idling for 5h 21m 42s, last said: 'go with your browser to paste.dyndns.org, then you'll know why xD'. | 20:16 |
| rzr | esaym153, i am affected by this trouble | 20:16 |
| kerio | 5 long hours | 20:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | rzr: esaym153: not only you | 20:31 |
| esaym153 | rzr: a new battery supposedly does fix it though right? (because I just bought a new one...) | 20:32 |
| Stskeeps | afaik | 20:32 |
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| esaym153 | My current battery, though 3 years old, still get 10 days of standy time | 20:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't confirm close relation of reboots and battery age | 20:38 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 thinks it's genuine state of fubar in bme | 20:39 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bme (or whatever they called it back when) worked kinda fine in y2000 nokia featurephones like 6210 | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and gave me a proper 7 years of almost-like-new lifetime with my 6210's battery | 20:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | despite 24/7/365 usage, and daily charging | 20:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | but well, the 6210 had not exactly a multitasking OS | 20:42 |
| jacekowski | well, thing is if bme worked back then | 20:43 |
| jacekowski | then it should work now | 20:43 |
| jacekowski | i mean, things didn't change that much | 20:43 |
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| rzr | reflashing it does not help ? | 20:43 |
| jacekowski | multitasking os doesn't matter that much | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only if they didn't manage to fsck it up | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which I think they evidently did | 20:43 |
| jacekowski | well, i've had a look at n900 bme | 20:44 |
| jacekowski | and if i had n900 i could disable reboot code | 20:44 |
| jacekowski | as in, shutdown | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're talking N810 here though | 20:44 |
| Sicelo | you mean to say battery management software acroos maemo & s40 has the same base? | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and that's been a completely different kind of critter | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: nobody but Stskeeps could tell for sure, but yes I'd suppose to find legacy cruft from 1998 in N900 BME | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw 6210 been s40? I don't think so | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: Stskeeps once told me looking at bme source blinds you and makes your eyes bleed, and I tend to 100% believe in this | 20:48 |
| MohammadAG | Anyone good at python? | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-ÜP | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but not me | 20:48 |
| MohammadAG | http://pastebin.com/MKuu30qm | 20:48 |
| MohammadAG | It should draw bubbles, upon clicking them they'll be removed, but it doesn't wok | 20:49 |
| MohammadAG | I'm helping out a friend | 20:49 |
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| Sicelo | ah, 6210 was the symbian one marketed as a navigator, i think :\ | 20:53 |
| jacekowski | Sicelo: across symbian and all rap* based phones | 20:53 |
| jacekowski | Sicelo: so s60 for sure | 20:53 |
| jacekowski | Sicelo: and probably s40 | 20:53 |
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| Sicelo | interesting stuff | 20:53 |
| jacekowski | another thing is, in n900 you've got rapuyama | 20:54 |
| jacekowski | chip that is used just as a modem and gps interface on n900 | 20:54 |
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| jacekowski | on s40 it runs whole phone | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sicelo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_6210 | 20:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I said "7 years of battery life, with my y2000 6210" | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fsckng 6210 navigator appeared 2008 | 20:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | tbh if my 6210 ever rebooted due to "bme" going mad, I hardly would've noticed | 21:06 |
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| rzr | esaym153, how do u check your battery condition ? | 21:17 |
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| niloy | hi | 21:52 |
| esaym153 | rzr: I have never checked the battery condition | 21:56 |
| niloy | I am getting this error while trying to complie nodejs | 21:56 |
| rzr | btw i am not using my n810 anymore/// | 21:56 |
| niloy | Node.js configure error: No acceptable C compiler found! | 21:56 |
| niloy | Please make sure you have a C compiler installed on your system and/or | 21:56 |
| niloy | consider adjusting the CC environment variable if you installed | 21:56 |
| niloy | it in a non-standard prefix. | 21:56 |
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| esaym153 | rzr: want to sell your n810? | 22:33 |
| rzr | i dont think so | 22:34 |
| rzr | i will trade for a n900 ;) | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I actually seen a used N810 for sale in a 2nd-hand shop some weeks ago. 4 years ago I paid as much for a new one | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I could get 2 used N900 for the same price | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | XP | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rzr: so beter wait another year, then buy Nokia for what you get for your N810 then | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (dang, I got an *unused* 'new' N810 here - spare for my still perfectly working one I used til I got the N900) | 22:39 |
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| esaym153 | the n9 looks pretty cool | 23:12 |
| rzr | indeed | 23:13 |
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| dump_01 | hi ppl! i have a problem with my maemo@cssu@n900. It have very poor IO performance both internal storage and microsd. When i copy something (a directory with some files ~200mb) - i have no chances to success - copying starts normal (about 500kb/s), but falling down and after 1 or 2 minutes my device is stop responding | 23:17 |
| dump_01 | i just unable to copy anything from storage to card or from network to card | 23:18 |
| ShadowJK | try: echo 4096 > /sys/block/mmcblk0/queue/nr_requests ; echo 4096 > /sys/block/mmcblk1/queue/nr_requests | 23:18 |
| ShadowJK | before copying | 23:18 |
| dump_01 | ShadowJK: should i do it on device start? | 23:19 |
| joga | just yesterday I stumbled upon that when I tried to dd some stuff and it rebooted, had it happen before a couple of times with easy debian install for example, but just now found a fix (I guess, haven't tried it again) | 23:20 |
| joga | would it be a sane default setting? I noticed some tmo post told to disable swappolube but does it interfere? | 23:21 |
| ShadowJK | dump_01, doesn't matter | 23:21 |
| dump_01 | expirience with dd: first dd 10mb - ok with good speed, second dd 10mb - much slower, 3-d - fail, need to ctrl-c but n900 just hangs for a 5 or more minutes.. | 23:22 |
| joga | how about after echoing that? | 23:23 |
| ShadowJK | the above suggestion should be done before you start any copying | 23:23 |
| dump_01 | joga: i will try it. right now my n900 is not responding while trying to copy from nfs to microsd.. | 23:24 |
| joga | also if you have problems like rebooting while experimenting with that, maybe good to do fsck to the card like umount /dev/mmcblk0p1 && fsck -a /dev/mmcblk0p1 (maybe fsck a couple of times) and then mount /dev/mmcblk0p1 again | 23:25 |
| joga | at least I got some errors there yesterday after botching it up ;p | 23:26 |
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| dump_01 | thanks ppl, now device rebooted and i will try | 23:29 |
| * dump_01 added channel to favorites | 23:32 | |
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| joga | is there a vnc server available for n900 besides x11vnc? | 23:35 |
| joga | so that I could run a virtual x screen on it? | 23:35 |
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| joga | or xnest, maybe? | 23:37 |
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| Sicelo | not in the public repos | 23:41 |
| Macer | jacekowski: installing chromium :-P | 23:42 |
| jacekowski | so? | 23:42 |
| Macer | oh. thought it was your repo | 23:43 |
| jacekowski | it is | 23:43 |
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| Macer | jacekowski: how can i copy urls? long touching doesnt work | 23:46 |
| jacekowski | ctrl+c | 23:46 |
| Macer | how do i exit full screen? | 23:48 |
| Macer | there is no f11 on the n900 kb :) | 23:48 |
| joga | Sicelo I'm having a hard time finding it, do you know where such a repo could be? | 23:48 |
| Sicelo | nope. no idea | 23:48 |
| joga | oh, k | 23:48 |
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| Sicelo | you might have to compile your own or ask someone to do it for you | 23:49 |
| robbiethe1st | Got a question guys: So, with the N900, the cellmodem driver must match the cellmodem firmware. How can I tell what version the driver side is? | 23:49 |
| robbiethe1st | My 'about product' simply says <unknown> | 23:50 |
| joga | Sicelo or maybe in easy debian..hmm | 23:50 |
| joga | I suspect my image of it is hosed tho, haven't tried it for a while | 23:51 |
| Sicelo | robbiethe1st: wtf! voodoo? | 23:51 |
| robbiethe1st | Eh, it happens when you hack it a bit too much... | 23:51 |
| Sicelo | i could have sworn my "About Product" had something there before | 23:51 |
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| Sicelo | yeah. it had. i'm sure | 23:52 |
| robbiethe1st | heh | 23:52 |
| Sicelo | dafuq. :\ | 23:52 |
| joga | Sicelo heh yeah I can at least install the server in debbie :) | 23:53 |
| Sicelo | kewl. :) | 23:53 |
| joga | I was thinking of using it with an adapter and a usb nic for network debugging at work | 23:53 |
| joga | so I don't need to carry a laptop if I just need to use wireshark occasionally ;p | 23:54 |
| Sicelo | robbiethe1st: since it's your voodoo that did this, please report back when you get some solution | 23:54 |
| Sicelo | :P | 23:54 |
| robbiethe1st | heh | 23:55 |
| Sicelo | joga: i'm basically a noob at these things .. what is it you want to do? | 23:56 |
| joga | Sicelo well, the vnc is mostly to try out if it's more reasonable to run heavy gui programs in it so that I get a scrollable display from a viewer and the program can run so that it's toolbars and elements aren't all squashed together into the tiny screen | 23:57 |
| Sicelo | robbiethe1st: mine possibly got borked yesterday while playing with u-boot, which always crashes my device. i still wonder how other people are able to use it | 23:58 |
| joga | but what would be nice is that if I can run wireshark so it's manageable on the screen, I can just plug in the ethernet cable to a usb nic, which is plugged to n900 via an adapter and wireshark can analyze the traffic for me | 23:59 |
| dump_01 | ShadowJK: runs copying smooth for 4 mins - almost success! | 23:59 |
| joga | Sicelo the stuff I mostly need it for is debugging some network cameras | 23:59 |
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