IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2012-05-24

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DocScrutinizerEstel_: yes00:17
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DocScrutinizerin Neo Freerunner it was ~30mA IIRC00:17
Estel_dark = lower usage on transleflective?00:17
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Estel_can't be!00:17
Estel_so high value?00:18
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Estel_between white and black?00:18
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Estel_I wonder if it's same for N900, going to check that now00:18
DocScrutinizerI suspected it's been the data bus00:18
DocScrutinizerI = U / R00:19
DocScrutinizer~ 3.3 / ( 50 / 4 )00:20
DocScrutinizer~ 4 * (1.8 / 1000)00:21
Estel_hm, no measureable change on N90000:22
Estel_it must be within normal fluctuation range = <10 mA00:22
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Estel_ping X-Fade00:23
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vi__my KB LEDs have ceased to function00:34
vi__how can I test them?00:34
vi__is there a KB led script?00:34
DocScrutinizerfirst: stop mce00:35
vi__can I enable R&D LED flashy mode...00:35
vi__DocScrutinizer: ok00:35
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vi__DocScrutinizer: done00:36
DocScrutinizer2nd: find /sys -name brightness00:36
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Estel_vi__,  happened to me once, led indicator stop to work and kb light too00:36
DocScrutinizer3rd: echo 250 >/sys/class/leds/lp5523:kb1/brightness00:36
Estel_do You happen to keep something under backover?00:36
Estel_2nd sim, sd card, money :P, whatever?00:37
Estel_Sicelo, it kwas my reaction to00:37
vi__Estel_: ?? no00:37
Estel_pressure on certain part od N900 (under backcover) makes led driver to, erm, sleep00:38
Estel_when I kept 2nd sim card there, it wasn't working. I was thinking WTF and haven't foun issue case00:38
vi__DocScrutinizer: I do not have an lp5523 /sys entry00:38
Estel_then, when 2nd card wasn't neededd and I took it out, it started to work00:38
DocScrutinizerfor led in /sys/class/leds/lp5523:kb?/brightness; do echo 100 >$led; done00:38
Estel_vi__,  same was here, no lp552300:39
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Estel_even on backupmenu it haven't worked00:39
vi__only a twl1403000:39
Estel_one of strangest thing I've ever seen on N90000:39
Sicelowhat surprises me is the keeping of stuff there :P00:39
vi__Estel_: did you need to reboot?00:40
Estel_:P I got mugen cover00:40
DocScrutinizerI heard the chip sometimes locks up - remove battery for some minutes00:40
vi__Sicelo: there was some guy who keeped monies in his!00:40
Estel_vi__,  yea. But rebooting with someting between cover even reboots was for no use00:40
vi__DocScrutinizer: ok00:40
Estel_even during turning  N900 on and off it haven't worked00:40
Estel_it was scary :P00:41
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  hardware wise, any idea why pressure above camera slider sensor could make it to "lock"?00:41
DocScrutinizerfscked FPC00:42
Estel_Sicelo,  with mugen cover it was best place for 2nd sim00:42
DocScrutinizerflex plastic cable00:42
DocScrutinizerflat plastic connector00:42
Estel_I see00:42
DocScrutinizerflexible printed circuit00:42
Estel_fuckin phone control00:42
Estel_not talking about N900, obviously00:43
Sicelobtw, those with modem issues.. i wonder if they ever tried the other OSes to see if it still doesnamt work there (Nemo,MeeGo,Debian,Ubuntu, etc)00:43
Estel_hm, but what secondary board fpc does have to do with leds driver... camera leds aren't connected there00:43
Estel_(to driver)00:43
Estel_nor it's on secondary board00:44
Estel_mysteries :P00:44
Estel_Sicelo,  most of the time modem issue are due to breakage in balls between sim reader00:45
Estel_sim slot00:45
Estel_or smth like that. One guy "fixed" it with nail and hammer00:45
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user_____w00t, meh LEDs are back.00:45
Estel_I suspect reflow would fix that00:45
Estel_no problem user vi ;)00:45
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Estel_citizien kane00:45
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Estel_vi___,  those guy who keeps money under N900 cover do it on purpose00:46
Estel_if You put ten pounds there at evening00:47
Estel_You find 20 pounds at the morning!00:47
vi___how do I disable rotation completly without having to use rotation lock applet? like stock n900.00:47
vi___Estel_: n900 is that good?00:47
Estel_but never put more, as You'll find used beer capsles instead00:47
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vi___having tried portrait I can honestly say, I do not know what all the fuss is about.00:48
Estel_vi___,  check what rotation lock applet does and do it manually?00:48
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Estel_hehe I got it enabled but never use on home00:48
Estel_although, it doesn't hurt to have00:48
Estel_well, I put icons in order etc... can remember if  ever used it00:49
Siceloi think you can find that in ~jr-tools00:49
Estel_well, for people using it one-handedly, writting on screen via vkb without sliding keyb out...00:49
Estel_it's probably useful00:49
vi___pfft, what do they think this is?00:50
vi___...a phone?00:50
Estel_btw vi, using ereswap already?00:50
vi___so are nokia really giving away a new pile of n950s?00:51
vi___Estel_: no.00:51
vi___Estel_: I literally have not had time00:51
Estel_40 N9 60 N900's00:51
* Estel_ nods00:51
Estel_60 N900:51
Estel_fu again00:52
Estel_40 N950's and 60 N9's00:52
Estel_thats what I mean00:52
vi___Estel_: I imagine I will download the deb, steal the main script then just run it as a cronjob every ~oouple of hours.00:52
Estel_vi, bad idea00:53
Estel_could do reswap while You're on heavy usage00:53
Estel_heavy ram or heavy CPU or both00:53
vi___Estel_: so are the n950s returned by developers or are they just been found?00:53
Estel_= lock Your phone for 30 minutes or crash some apps without warning or reboot phone and corrupt fs00:53
Estel_"just found"00:53
vi___Estel_: well of course there will be some checking to tell if the screen is off and phone is locked etc.00:54
Estel_damn my alt_gr just stuck00:54
Estel_for a while00:54
Estel_software only00:54
Estel_scarredk me that backspace stopped working00:54
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~/bin# cat no-portrait-gconfkey00:55
DocScrutinizergconftool-2 -s /apps/osso/hildon-desktop/ui_can_rotate -t bool false00:55
Estel_vi___,  I'm working on a way that it will inform user about swap usage automagically00:55
vi___Estel_: cool00:55
vi___Estel_: not my cup of tea thpugh.00:55
Estel_usually, You won't hit swap fragmentation with device locked and screen off00:56
Estel_and when You want to use it You'll be irritatedd when You hit fragm. and do it manually anyway00:56
Estel_so no much job for cron esxept for wasting cycles for checking00:56
Estel_btw freemangordon is checking if it's possible to get rid of this problem all-together00:57
Estel_by altering how kernel allocate swap on free fragments00:57
Estel_although I doubt 100% effective solution can be found on flash medium00:58
vi___unless it awakens, sees swap useage is >50% then defrags00:58
vi___Estel_: marvellous, that guy is a prodige.00:58
Estel_vi, quite a solution00:59
Estel_yea, but he's worried a little, that no more kernel devs than he and pali00:59
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Estel_I would also *love* to se another talented dev working on kp01:00
vi___Estel_: thats because there are no more kernel devs than just them01:00
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infobotEstel_ meant: I would also *love* to see another talented dev working on kp01:00
vi___Estel_: it is a 2 man show and they are a hard act to follow.01:00
DocScrutinizerand a quite autistic act01:00
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  wtf?01:01
vi___DocScrutinizer: >:(01:01
Sc0rpiuswhat's kp?01:02
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Sc0rpiusoh ok01:03
Sc0rpiusI really like my stock kernel :)01:03
Estel_You shouldn't ;)01:03
vi___kp=kangaroo penis.01:03
Estel_it's bugged and lack basic things01:03
Sc0rpiuswhy not? overclocking is bad for your health01:03
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Sc0rpiuslike what?01:03
Estel_I don't talk about oc this time01:03
HRH_H_Crabno ipv6 in the stock kernel01:03
Sc0rpiusI've been using it for years with no probs01:03
vi___Sc0rpius: so is bacon01:03
Estel_no ext401:03
Sc0rpiusthere's no IPv6 around me01:03
Sc0rpiusthere's ext3.01:04
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DocScrutinizeroh, that's geting funny now, debating which kernel has more flaws and bugs, stock or power01:04
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RaimuKangaroo... penis.01:04
Estel_ext3 is worse ;)01:04
vi___Sc0rpius: and drugs01:04
RaimuAnd drugs.01:04
RaimuGood night. :D01:04
Estel_no crypt modules for truecrypt01:04
Sc0rpiuswhat's a good advantage of an ext4 fs on a phone?01:04
Estel_no vdd=1 powersaving01:04
vi___Sc0rpius: it is faster01:05
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: which regressions are there actually in the power kernel? the only one I noticed was broken reboot, though that is fixed with the latest version01:05
Estel_better journal01:05
Estel_DocScrutinizer, is well known kp negatron :D01:05
Sc0rpiusI don't know why in my mind everything you said translate to less battery01:05 audio is broken01:05
Sc0rpiusand battery is the most precious value in a phone01:05
Estel_Sc0rpius,  bullshitl;)01:05
DocScrutinizerEstel_: suuure01:05
vi___Sc0rpius: lol wut01:05
Sc0rpiusif you tell me01:06
Estel_fixed SR values = 1/3 more battery01:06
Sc0rpius"upgrade to kernel-power and your battety will last a week in 3G"01:06
Sc0rpiusthen we're talking01:06
vi___Sc0rpius: not quite01:06
Estel_buy dual scud from me and it will ;)01:06
vi___Sc0rpius: however smart reflex has improved battery shitloads01:06
DocScrutinizerEstel_: I'm a patch-oile'o'crap hater, and a git fan though I dunno much about it01:06
Estel_Sc0rpius,  I'm using 3000 mAh battery01:07
* Sicelo has KP for the sole purpose of using hostmode01:07
Estel_and will use 6000 mAh soon01:07
vi___Estel_: ha, you have more battery than n900?01:07
Sc0rpiusI think I'm gonna install Nemo soon01:07
Estel_honestly, it's hard to mention all kp benefits01:07
DocScrutinizerSicelo: the you found the reason why Estel_ 's assumption regarding me and KP was terribly off01:07
Estel_Sc0rpius,  nemo won't be usable for months or years01:07
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Sc0rpiusby the way in another topic I installed Lubuntu in a Netbook and that's amazing.  It even has Office suite and everything and it's just 3 GB on the HDD01:08
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Sc0rpiuscan't I make a call with current Nemo?01:08
Siceloyeah DocScrutinizer. i was about to mention that to him :P01:08
Estel_Sc0rpius,  using stock kernel is like sitting on pr 1.0 or 1.101:08
vi___haters gonna hate=docsrutinisers gonna be01:08
Estel_Sc0rpius,  you can install lubuntu on N90001:08
Sc0rpiusI don't agree.01:08
Sc0rpiusyeah but it will stop being a phone01:09
Sc0rpiusand I want a phone01:09
Sc0rpiusit's my main phone if I can't make a call is useless01:09
Estel_Sc0rpius,  why You've installedd pr1.3?01:09
Estel_just because Nokika released it01:09
Estel_after all, it's bugfixes01:09
Sc0rpiuswell I'm in PR 1.3 + CSSU01:09
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Estel_kp too01:09
Estel_why, You havent had phone on pr 1.1?01:09
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Estel_see ya Vvi01:09
Sc0rpiusI don't remember01:09
* merlin1991 is about to bid on n900 on ebay01:09
merlin1991one can never have enough xD01:09
merlin1991or rather I'm tired of my cssu-testing device burning its battery in 10 hrs01:09
Sc0rpiusI think my phone came with 1.2 pre-installed when I bought it01:10
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Estel_so why 1.3 Sc0rpius01:10
DocScrutinizerwhat I notoriously hate though are patches introduced to kernel by fools who got no clue, like e.g. that bq27200.ko and the I2C locking fuckup it brought with it01:10
Estel_or not downgraded, 1.1 uses less space ;)01:10
SiceloEstel_: he actually meant on ubuntu.. that he wont' have a phone01:10
Sc0rpiusDocScrutinizer, but you still use kernel-power nonetheless, right?01:10
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  bq i2c id dedcade old thing01:10
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Sc0rpiusoh yeah if I install Lubuntu on my N900 it stops being a phone, that's what I meant.01:11
Estel_fixed when dinosaurs walked on earth01:11
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Estel_DocScrutinizer,  now every path must be first submitted on tmo thread and explained01:11
DocScrutinizerif those dinosaurs hadn't kicke3d some asses, it wasn't fixed til now yet01:11
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Estel_probably because it wouldn't hurt anyone until sun becomes supernova (although I agree it was wrong)01:12
DocScrutinizeroh yeah tmo, home of the *real* kernel experts01:12
Estel_btw it was patch from titan's times01:12
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Sc0rpiusDocScrutinizer is so filled of hate today :)01:12
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  maintainers read patches01:13
Sc0rpiusso, can I make a call with current Nemo?01:13
Estel_during Pali and freeman times every patch is reviewed, that's why luke-jr thing was kickedd out01:13
Estel_Sc0rpius,  would love to answer, althoughm no idea01:13
Sicelowhat luke-jr thing?01:13
Estel_there was some patch enabling low frequency cutoff via smth01:14
Estel_but, it would also affect headphones01:14
Estel_gdenerally, it would be nice thing to have, despite fact that we have speaker's protection mechanism already01:14
DocScrutinizerand how T F is that kernel now?01:14
Sc0rpiuswell there's only one way to know01:14
Estel_but in gstreamer pulseaudio or somewhere01:15
Estel_but his kernel patch did it in kernel01:15
Estel_if code would be better and adapt itself to situtionp, it would be ok01:15
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  we have some hw thing01:15
Estel_controllable by kernel01:15
SiceloSc0rpius: report back, please :)01:15
Estel_that was meant to do filtefring01:15
* Sc0rpius is installing U-Boot, first step of the installation01:15
Estel_anyway, probldem was that luke-jr just used some code01:16
Estel_and wouldn't be able to maintain it01:16
DocScrutinizerbtw we got a nice gifted guy named HNT or sth like that, who implemented that stuff into ALSA like 18 months ago01:16
Estel_in case of bugs etc01:16
Estel_so patch was kicked out in a second01:16
DocScrutinizerwith a lot of help from my side01:17
Estel_I just mean that whinning about quality of patches in KP is wrong since maaany months01:17
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  where is his patch?01:17
Estel_implemented anywhere?01:17
DocScrutinizerjust for the record:01:19
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~/bin# uname -a01:19
DocScrutinizerLinux IroN900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l GNU/Linux01:19
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Estel_well, so it's not iron anymore ;)01:21
Estel_I would rather say mercurium01:21
Estel_or graphit01:22
Estel_as much as I would be afraid of using 2.6.28 on desktop due to kernel bugs, I would be afraid of using it on N900 without all KP patches, making it no longer 2.6.28 in reality (ammount of upstream patches)01:23
Estel_at least, I would not call it "more stable" than patched counterpart01:23
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Estel_ping X-Fade01:25
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Estel_merlin1991,  I lost refference to wiki article, where it was explained with details how to properly encode icon for debian/control file02:16
Estel_8 know it's base64, but exact command and tool was given there02:17
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Estel_do You remember proper way of doing so? I can't find this document02:17
Estel_and wiki got plentora of less or more verbose docs on packaging02:17
Estel_(none for now got detailed info on icon)02:17
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Estel_nvm, found it finally02:19
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Sc0rpiuswe,ll I'm booting Nemo02:48
Sc0rpiusI can make a call02:51
Sc0rpiusbut it's funny, I call my voicemail and it says the password is incorrect02:51
Estel_well, I blame voicemail02:54
Sc0rpiusI pressed the numbers very slowly and it worked02:54
Sc0rpiusthe portrait virtual keyboard works VERY well02:54
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Sc0rpiusI can't find an SMS app :(02:55
Estel_virtual leyboard on N900 sounds almost like an regression :P02:56
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Sc0rpiusI wonder how am I supposed to zoom in Nemo with an N900 if it's not multitouch :)03:11
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luke-jrEstel_: shrug, I'd rather miss some freqs in headphone, than my N900 speakers be destroyed04:03
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SiceloScorcerer: \m/08:44
Sicelotab- fail, i meant Sc0rpius08:44
Siceloone thing Sc0rpius, how is power usage/management?08:45
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X-FadeMaemo Council election results:
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teotwakithanks X-Fade12:52
teotwakihow many times has SD69 been on the council now/12:52
chem|stEstel_: grats12:52
teotwakiEstel_: aye, congrats12:52
chem|stteotwaki: with his attituted I am wondering why12:53
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JaffaX-Fade: thanks13:02
Jaffateotwaki: This is his third term.13:02
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JaffaHe talks a lot. Does nothing. And bemoans the fact he's expected to do other things13:02
teotwakiJaffa: so I was correct in assuming he was indeed the one I saw you and GA talk about on twitter some weeks ago?13:03
Jaffateotwaki: Yup13:03
Jaffateotwaki: is quite fun13:06
Jaffateotwaki: Despite being the only active member on the previous council, he refused to accept he was the chair.13:06
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JaffaEstel_: congratulations13:14
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chem|stEstel_: please do not hesitate to moan about council members doing nothing, the other way round is welcome too (moan about what they do^^)13:38
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Estel_X-Fade, thanks for announcing election results14:25
Estel_chem|st, teotwaki, Jaffa, thank You all14:25
Estel_I would like to personally thank every participant - mostly, the Community voting, then candidates running and finally, elected Councilors14:26
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Estel_hi freemangordon14:26
freemangordonEstel_, hi, congrats14:26
Estel_Jaffa, despite Your view on SD69 - which you're fully entitled to have - he got 2nd results in voting, so it seems that whole Community doesn't share your view.14:27
Estel_Thanks a lot, freemangordon14:27
Estel_You just missed my personal thanks to You ;) (and everyone voting in election)14:27
infobotEstel_ meant: You just missed my personal thanks to You ;) (as everyone voting in election)14:27
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freemangordondamn stupid sppedfan her, my PC was in boot loop :)14:27
freemangordonmaybe it is time to get rid of that windoze finally14:28
Estel_anyway, election results are here, so we can start work on full throotle14:28
Estel_freemangordon, same thoughts here ;)14:28
teotwakiEstel_: get a speelcheek, the red penis you're friend.14:29
Estel_teotwaki, wtf? i'mafraid I don't get You fully ;)14:30
teotwakiEstel_: get a spellchecker, the red pen is your friend.14:30
teotwakiEstel_: ^14:30
Estel_speelcheek - hoever it looks and jaw - sounds better than red penis. It think it concludes this part of discussion ;)14:30
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Estel_DocS, ping14:33
Estel_DocScrutinizer, ping14:33
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cr-veraccepted: my n900 is dead16:43
cr-verthanks for your tips16:43
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Estel_Woody14619, ping17:03
Estel_DocScrutinizer, ping17:06
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DocScrutinizer51aaah I see, a supposedly dead cheap to buy N90017:34
DocScrutinizer51Estel_: lrn2suggest syslog17:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer, what?17:37
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chem|stanyone an idea why sharing-plugin-facebook stopped working?17:42
spark666chem|st: doesnt work here to17:43
chem|stspark666: tested on 2 devices allready17:44
chem|stspark666: but thanks17:44
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chem|stsharing-service-facebook is nokia... andre__ is there anything we can do about that?17:49
andre__that it is Nokia? :)17:49
andre__I don't think so17:49
andre__but yeah, seems to be an issue. also reported in
povbotBug 12621: The Facebook widget does not work17:50
andre__and I guess Flickr sharing will also break in two months when they completely switch to OAuth17:51
andre__just my guess though17:51
chem|standre__: they switch auth ?17:52
spark666the only option its that someone make a new option for sharing like peterovich was17:52
spark666for bluetooth in pr1.217:52
chem|stsomeone resamnble a sharingplugin yeah17:53
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chem|standre__: got nokia care in chat now, as the n900 is still sold as new and there were commercials with the facebook app they are required to fullfill this in europe18:03
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ShadowJKi didn't know n900 was still sold anywhere18:25
chem|stwell nokia does not sell it anymore and I guess with removing n900 device website they are save regarding any sueing18:28
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Estel_gm, strange18:51
Estel_something is eating my idle power. I see that device without any connection, idle, is using ~50 mA, instead of usual 7-918:51
Estel_what is more strange, after rebootr, for few hours, idle usage is normal18:52
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Estel_and then, without using any application (device left overnight) it start to be minimum of 50 mA18:52
Estel_ho ever, while-in-use pwoer usage is normal18:52
Estel_any good way to check it? I suspect something is keeping MPU of out sleep state, but how to check what? TOP doesn't show anything unusual18:53
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DocScrutinizer51ho ever?18:54
Estel_hoever I would be glad if You could stop ignoring private IRc messages from me ;)18:55
DocScrutinizer51with a sample time of 30 minutes18:55
Estel_exactly, and it shpows that CPU doesn't sleep as it should18:57
Estel_in idle18:57
Estel_but, how to check what is causing it?18:57
Woody14619Estel_, pong18:58
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ioanhi. how well does android work on n900?19:44
spark666ioan: are you from ro?:P19:44
spark666me 2 :D19:44
ioanwell, I'm in US right now, dar sunt roman ;-)19:45
spark666bine de tine ca ai scapat de ro :P19:45
spark666lets talk in eng enyway before they kick us off :))19:45
spark666and related to your question,android works quite well afaik,only that few features are missing19:46
ioanlike what? what features are missing?19:46
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spark666i think phone feature...19:47
spark666for phone calls19:47
ioanI got an android phone for my wife last night, and I'm quite impressed with it...19:47
spark666yes i owned one to in the past,a htc desire,they are nice19:48
ioanso the phone will become an n850 with android :-)19:48
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spark666guess so..but maybe im wrong19:48
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spark666and the camera function i guess it doesnt work either :(19:49
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spark666take a look here >>
spark666i think you can find some of your answers there19:51
ioanok, thanks19:51
spark666yw :)19:51
spark666catch you guys later im going to take dinner :)19:52
ioanpofta mare!19:53
spark666hehe,mersi :D19:53
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ioansee ya all later19:56
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, ping?...19:58
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, ping-pong-ping-pung?20:05
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Estel_X-Fade, ping20:13
Estel_DocScrutinizer, ping-pang-pung-pong-peng?20:14
* Estel_ bombards DocScrutinizer with tons of ping-pong balls20:14
Estel_~ping DocScrutinizer20:15
infobotpong DocScrutinizer20:15
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Estel_X-Fade, ping20:27
Estel_anyone know qgil's nick on IRC?20:28
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hiemanshuEstel_: IIRC its quimgil or qgil20:36
Estel_thanks a lot20:36
Estel_none seems to be present :(20:37
hiemanshujust ask him over twitter?20:37
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Estel_I don't user twitter, honestly20:42
Estel_but thanks for suggestion20:42
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DocScrutinizer51~seen qgil21:04
infobotqgil <c0646a28@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 239d 19h 18m ago, saying: 'ok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around!'.21:04
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DocScrutinizer51Estel_: pong21:05
Estel_DocScrutinizer, see private IRC message21:07
DocScrutinizer51sorry there is none21:07
merlin1991DocScrutinizer51: irc spam filters? :D21:07
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Estel_and now?21:10
Estel_for some reasons, /query DocScrutinizer doesn't workj for You, and work with everyone else21:10
Estel_I've tried again, any response?21:10
merlin1991Estel_: notice the 51 on his nick? ;)21:10
merlin1991so I'd suggest you /query DocScrutinizer5121:10
Estel_sorry, my fault21:10
Estel_of course21:10
Estel_yea, i'm dumbie. Thanks a lot21:10
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Estel_hm, doesn't seem to work either or hes away21:12
DocScrutinizer51battery empty, sorry21:12
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Estel_DocScrutinizer51, maybe now?21:18
Estel_~seen quimgil21:19
infobotquimgil <c0647829@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 433d 19h 15m 48s ago, saying: 'lbt: now go to sleep only to find out next morning in Engadget that 'a new "fremantle" device3 is in the plans' etc etc  ;)'.21:19
FIQa while ago21:22
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Estel_Jaffa, ping21:24
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MohammadAGEstel_, he uses the nick qgil now21:35
Estel_MohammadAG, I know, but21:35
Estel_~seen qgil21:35
infobotqgil <c0646a28@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 239d 19h 49m 23s ago, saying: 'ok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around!'.21:35
Estel_just a while ago ;)21:36
MohammadAG~seen qgil_21:36
infobotqgil_ <c0646a28@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 279d 21h 54m 34s ago, saying: 'still, if the news are confirmed the real news will be what HP does next'.21:36
MohammadAG~seen QGil21:36
infobotqgil <c0646a28@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 239d 19h 49m 42s ago, saying: 'ok, time to leave and join the Qt chapter - Siicon Valley. See you around!'.21:36
Estel_anyway, he tried to use, so it's pointless, I'll catch him via mail21:36
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Woody14619I used webchat just a couple weeks ago and it worked fine. :)21:42
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MohammadAG~seen javispedro21:50
infobotjavispedro <~javier@Maemo/community/contributor/javispedro> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 2d 3h 32m 12s ago, saying: 'that'd make for interesting performance counters'.21:50
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Estel_DocScrutinizer, DocScrutinizer51, ping22:13
Estel_DocScrutinizer112, ping22:14
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SiceloSc0rpius: what's new on Nemo?22:18
SiceloEstel_: congrats on election. :)22:18
Sicelodid you finally figure out what your power hog is?22:19
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Estel_Sicelo,  thanks a lot :)22:25
Estel_still not22:25
Estel_will need to ask someone more accustomed to powertop (vi?)22:26
Sicelopaste it ... there's others who understand it tooo :P22:26
Estel_I understand it, just don't know wtf hogs it. But I'll surely hear Your opinion about it22:28
Estel_if You know wtf, I'll be very thankful22:28
Estel_gimme minute, will do fresh test, need to close connections22:28
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Estel_Sicelo,  or anyone who would like help with tracking down the bugger:22:38
Estel_C1 state all the time...22:38
Estel_may syslogd be the bugger?22:39
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Sicelowhy is xbindkeys so busy?22:39
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Estel_Sicelo,  no idea?22:44
Estel_I'm using it for ages22:45
Estel_never been problem22:45
Estel_it's easy debian's xbindkeys22:45
Estel_why it got mad lately, ffs22:45
Sicelolooks to me like that's where your problem is22:46
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Siceloi guess i'll soon lose telephony functions on my N900 :\22:49
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Sicelowhen i change from 3G to 2G and vice versa, i find that i end up with no signal at all, and power usage goes high. a reboot fixes things22:51
Estel_try solution with hammer22:53
Estel_or sell it and buy N900's from me as per tmo:P22:53
Estel_I sell them so cheap, that You'll probably profit in ,process22:54
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  via powertop logs, do You have idea wtf is that? is it xbindkeys fault and why it went mad sudden pf nothing?22:54
Estel_I never had problems with it22:54
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SiceloEstel_: i'm too far, lol. Africa22:55
Estel_I send everywshere except, probably, noth korea :P22:55
DocScrutinizerEstel_: >>Collecting data for 30 seconds<< forget it22:56
DocScrutinizer30 minutes, nit 30s22:56
Estel_ok, no problem22:56
Estel_but even for 30 sec xbindkeys should sleep22:56
Sicelosee who owns PID 202522:56
merlin1991wait estel, sellin n900s on tmo22:56
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Estel_merlin1991,  sure thing wait a second22:57
Estel_Sicelo,  could You give him link, I'm on 10 kbps connection again22:57
Estel_and tmo will load for ages22:57
DocScrutinizerN900 for sale?22:58
Estel_pid 2025? cant find it, how should IZ check it properly?22:58
Estel_not only N90022:59
merlin1991DocScrutinizer I called dibs!22:59
Estel_N900's in ideal condition with reinforced usb port22:59
Estel_english keyboard22:59
DocScrutinizer   2025 |        299 |      xbindkeys | do_nanosleep (hrtimer_wakeup)22:59
Estel_for 180 euros22:59
Estel_ah I see22:59
Estel_I had problems with selling them for 2 weeks, but now they're gone. Although, I may come with more if someone is decided23:00
DocScrutinizerWTF PK23:00
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  any idea why xbindkeys got apeshi?23:00
DocScrutinizerflash proper kernel23:00
DocScrutinizerFrequency | Ratio23:01
DocScrutinizer 1150 MHz |   nan% |23:01
Estel_I'm on 900 mhz23:01
merlin1991damn, sold out23:01
Estel_powertop fakes it23:01
merlin1991and I had my hopes up23:01
Estel_merlin1991,  not entirely23:01
Estel_I can arrange another one for You23:01
Siceloyeah, PK always shows 1150MHz there23:01
Estel_Ialready got one person on waiting list :P23:02
DocScrutinizerthat's one of the points why I consider PK non-compatible and introducing regressions23:02
Estel_merlin1991,  it will be on same price or similar one (no more than 200 euro + shipping)23:02
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  what is regression here?23:03
Estel_I don't care what powertop shows about frequency, I'm interested in what's eating my battery23:03
DocScrutinizerobviously powertop's inability to cope with PK's messed up cpufreq listing23:03
DocScrutinizerEstel_: then fix powertop23:04
Estel_I see, but C* states are important for us23:04
chem|stDocScrutinizer: it is not on powertop to cope with PK's fsckedup lisings!23:04
Estel_it should sleep on C4not C123:04
DocScrutinizerchem|st: all my notion23:04
Estel_well, maybe stock kernel used fckd listing23:05
Estel_and maemo powertop got adjusted to that23:05
DocScrutinizerPK *is* *not* compatible23:05
Estel_now kp got fixed listing and powertop is not compatible23:05
chem|stEstel_: it is std powertop from debian guess who fsckedup...23:05
Sicelohmm :\23:05
Estel_seriously, I have in ass what powertop thing about frequency23:05
DocScrutinizerchem|st: it's not23:06
Estel_chem|st,  why sure it wasn't adjusted?23:06
chem|stthe first one was the bare arm build23:06
Estel_if it's kp fault, lets contact freemangordon. F it's powertop fault, lets fix it.23:06
Estel_no need for whinning about compatibility23:06
freemangordonpowertop is closed source AFAIK23:07
DocScrutinizerbut thnd PK has to conformat doesn't change the basic rule that maemo kernel is simply always "right" a23:07
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  cant agree23:07
Estel_meritocratic approach doesn't allow us to say that stock is right on doing things wrong23:07
* Sicelo leaves to reboot his N900 .. this modem thing makes me sick23:07
DocScrutinizerbut that doesn't change the principle that maemo kernel is ruling and PK has to follow (this time without touchpad messing up stuff)23:07
chem|stSicelo: modem turning off?23:08
Estel_seriously, I think otherwise23:08
Estel_at least when it comes to things that can be fixed23:08
chem|stSicelo: most of the time ->flightmode->normal fixes it for me23:08
Estel_i.e. no one say it's ok to change things and makew bme go apeshit23:08
Estel_but powertop?23:08
Estel_if it's foss, it can be fixed23:09
DocScrutinizerEstel_: if maemo kernel had a MMOONNSSTTEERR bug and 15 apps rely on it, I give a stinking warm fart about PK fixing that bug23:09
Estel_if it's closed, it's its problem as its not essential like bme23:09
Sicelochem|st: when i change modes (3G/2G), i end up with no signal at all, and high battery consumption. Offline/Online doesn't help me. i have a (bad) feeling that i'll soon lose telephony completely23:09
Estel_it depends23:09
DocScrutinizerno, it doesn't23:09
Estel_if those 15 aps are foss and rely on monster bug23:09
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Estel_then it's time to fix both bug and 15 apps23:10
Estel_if they're closed source and essential (see bme) then it's valid23:10
DocScrutinizerfind a way to emulate the MONSTER bug in PK for those apps that need it, or you're wrong23:10
chem|stSicelo: ouch23:10
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Siceloa reboot fixes things23:10
Estel_if they're closed and esential - yes, true23:10
Estel_if open or closed and non esential, well...23:10
chem|stSicelo: stay on 2g? :)23:11
Estel_non essential - I mean, lets say, blessN90023:11
Estel_closed source extras23:11
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Estel_thats why I think we need upstream CSSU with community kernel bundled in and -testing -devel variants23:11
Siceloyeah chem|st :P  .. only problem is that sometimes 2G stops working here (peak hours) .. that's when i switch to 3G23:11
Estel_we don't want chaos when programs are written to follow bugs in distribution A23:12
Estel_and doesnt work in B and C23:12
Estel_especially, that we have low dev resources23:12
Estel_and especially kp devs23:12
Estel_now I'll be asshat - I would use a minute of freemangordon's or Pali time to do 2 kernels, for "stock" fans (onlhy bugfixes) and proper kernel-power23:13
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Estel_if someone is so conservative and want stock, he/she can prepare kp-lite rollouts23:14
Estel_and manage it23:14
infobotEstel_ meant: and maintain it23:14
DocScrutinizernobody, I repeat NOBODY is allowed to "fix" something in a way that creates more trouble than good. And nobody has the right to order app devels to rework their lib/whatever API, just because you think the lib need an better incompatible API. It's *YOU* who's doing mist evil then, not the original bug you intend to fix23:14
Estel_but never demand kp/CSSU devs to do so23:14
Estel_nobody is allowed to order anything anyone23:14
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Estel_but sometimes, people just want to23:15
Estel_people want to re-work their programs to use KP or CSSU new possibilities23:15
Estel_it's all about volounteering23:15
Estel_kp is done by volounteers23:15
Estel_cssu too.23:15
Estel_if someone doesn't like feature in KP or CSSU - nice, it's FOSS23:16
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Estel_volounteer time and make a version that suit You, maybe You'll get followers23:16
Estel_or not.23:16
DocScrutinizerno, it's all about competence and inspiration to find a way for better alternatives to allow old stuff to co-exist23:16
Estel_when feasible, sure thing23:16
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Estel_but we need to use our scarce resources in feasible way23:17
DocScrutinizerwhen not, you're the one who's screwed23:17
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DocScrutinizernot I and my app that needs that old API23:17
Estel_well, if we have 2 kernel devs23:17
Estel_I preffer them doing what they preffer, i.e. properly working things23:17
DocScrutinizerthat's nonsense23:17
Estel_not rolling out version with old bugs to make it compatible with fckd api23:17
Estel_or emulation of bug23:18
DocScrutinizersorry, I won't let anybody hijack maemo23:18
Estel_asshat argument here - after all, there is always stock :P23:18
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, do you know why powertop spits bullshit when run under KP?23:18
Estel_people choose via their repos downloads23:18
Estel_no hijacking.23:18
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DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: guess!23:18
freemangordonI can bet it is hardcoded for up to 600 MHz23:19
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Estel_it splits up 1150 mhz no matter what23:19
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: what does this tell us? there's not supposed to be anything >600MHz23:19
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freemangordonso the proper "BUGFIX" will be to limit PK frequency to 600. And THAT is nonsense23:19
Estel_anyway, if someone will make awesome project and call it omeam, everyone or majority will use it23:19
Estel_and program accordingly23:20
Estel_is it hijack? no, free choice23:20
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: that's idiotic bullshit alternative23:20
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  You can't force peoplem to stick with what You feel is right23:20
DocScrutinizerhonestly you can do better than that, I know you well enough by now23:20
Estel_after all, people will code and use whatever they want, no natter if You call it hijacking or not. or compatible ;)23:21
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, either that, or even more insane method - lie about actual frequency range23:21
DocScrutinizerread that and either get what I meant, or wave as I'm leaving now anyway23:22
freemangordonjust to make powertop(and you) happy.23:22
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DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: whom are YOU going to make happy?23:22
Estel_after all, sometimes You just need to choose lesser evil, to not allow bigger one, sneaking in the dark, to catch You.23:23
Estel_BUHAHA that was dark! ;)23:23
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer, NFC, I can just hope23:23
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  every kp user?23:23
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freemangordonthat someone will fin a value in what me (and others) are doing23:23
Estel_after all, people want upstream bugfixes and features, not emulating old bugs23:23
DocScrutinizerI don't mind KP users23:23
DocScrutinizerthey can do whatever they like23:23
Estel_to make powertop or other things happy23:23
DocScrutinizerbut KP *IS* *NOT* *COMPATIBLE*23:24
DocScrutinizerand thus never will go into CSSU like that23:24
Estel_well, whatever they like? so, they can say stock is not compatible and obsolete ;)23:24
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, it is powertop not compatible, not KP23:24
Estel_do You realize that CSSU will be whatever devs decide to...23:24
Estel_and no one is entitled to block it?23:24
DocScrutinizerno, it will be what maintainers decide. For now I'm one of three23:25
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Estel_well, in case of any unnecessary conflict23:25
Estel_it will just get forked23:26
DocScrutinizeryou're free to fork - actually I appreciate you to do that23:26
Estel_with the fork becoming upstream, probably23:26
Estel_it's better to find compromise23:26
Estel_than sticking to ideology just for sake of it23:26
Estel_and by "fork" i mean it in ""23:26
Estel_if someone will try to obstruct development for misty and hardly valid reasons...23:27
DocScrutinizerthat's not ideology, that's common sense for all those users that are supposed to migrate from stock nokia repos to cssu23:27
Estel_it's not arbitrary OTA23:27
DocScrutinizerif you want ACME bleeding edge, YOU fork23:27
Estel_it's not kp fault that our version of powertop is screwed23:28
Estel_it's not kp fault that our version of powertop is screwed23:28
Estel_it's just naming convention.23:28
Estel_in factp, with all due respect23:28
Estel_don't take it as hostile23:28
Estel_devs doing things > maintainers23:28
DocScrutinizerthat's bullshit, and I'm talking as a user here23:29
Estel_with OpenOffice, maintainers denied to do things *right* way for hardly reasonable reasons23:29
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Estel_it resulted in "forking" into libre office and open office dissapearing from upstream in eye's blink23:30
Estel_after all, devs choose by coding, and users by installing23:30
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Estel_oracle as maintainer had nothing to say about it23:30
DocScrutinizermerlin1991 and me installed cssu-extras for you, if you still need to fork, do it. I don't care23:30
Estel_I don't have anything against cssu-extras23:30
Estel_it sounds like good idea for things23:30
DocScrutinizeryou won't hijack cssu23:31
Estel_I'm just saying that we must consider available resources and doers, over ideology23:31
Estel_if doers will decide that it's fine to have CSSU and commuty kernel as 1 project, it's fine for me23:31
chem|ststay focused23:32
Estel_if they'll decide to have 3 different kernels *and* people will like to work on it...23:32
DocScrutinizerthat's for nobody to decide, it's written in CSSU 'manifest' this won't happen23:32
Estel_considering we have 2 kernel developers, I doubt it.23:32
Estel_manifest can be changed.23:32
DocScrutinizersure, in you rfork you can change it all the way you like23:33
Estel_it's no one's right to obstruct it, if Community would like change.23:33
Estel_fork is bad word here.23:33
chem|stEstel_: the way this is gonna go... you should ask all to develop nemo to topnotch usable23:33
DocScrutinizerif community prefers your fork, they'll follow23:33
Estel_In worst case, rather split, but I doubt it will ever happen.23:33
DocScrutinizeryou won't hijack cssu23:33
DocScrutinizeryou won't hijack cssu23:33
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  wtf with this hijack?23:33
DocScrutinizeryou won't hijack cssu23:33
Estel_it's not Your property23:34
Estel_doers and user = community will decide what CSSU is, and, in fact, are deciding every day23:34
Woody14619Wasn't the whole point of CSSU to be able to use upstream tools?  If you stick to a broken downstream behavior, what's the point of it?23:34
Estel_good point.23:34
chem|stthe developers decide not the users23:35
Estel_chem|st,  there is something valid in HYour point23:35
Estel_but, people develop and use what they want23:35
Estel_chem|st,  latest point is not valid23:35
DocScrutinizerEstel_: nope23:35
DocScrutinizeryou won't hijack cssu23:35
Woody14619This is what library revisioning (and kernel module versioning) is for.  If you break functionality, you pop up the major and allow both to co-exist.23:35
Estel_if users don't use, devs dont decide23:35
DocScrutinizerit got a clear destiny23:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  I think You should rest, honestly.23:35
merlin1991guys srls23:36
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, can you please stop with the hijack nonsense?  You sound like a 4 year old.23:36
Estel_there is no such thing as hijacking cssu, cssu is constantly evolving idea.23:36
chem|stEstel_: there might be some userbase wanting naked babes dancing while an upgrade happens... as long as ther is no developer adding a naked-babes feature to his upgrade there will be no naked babes!23:36
Estel_it's just a heated discussion ;)23:36
merlin1991cssu is going to be what the cssu maintainers decide, any other project that possibly is 90% like cssu can do whatever it's going todo23:36
DocScrutinizerno, you should stop trying to find arguments why some change to CSSU might be needed that makes it incompatible to stock maemo23:36
Estel_chem|st,  true23:36
merlin1991but cssu as itself has a mission statement and is going to stick to that23:37
Woody14619We get your point... for the 100th time.... saying it 101 times won't change anything.23:37
Estel_now, old bugs for compatibility sake are those naked babies23:37
DocScrutinizerCSSU *is* and *stays* compatible to stock maemo23:37
chem|stDocScrutinizer: +123:37
Estel_merlin1991,  not entirely true23:37
Estel_maintainers can be changed.23:37
chem|stif not the idea of flashing and just installing cssu brakes23:38
Estel_if they would like to obstruct project23:38
merlin1991that's what doc means by hijack23:38
Estel_btw compatible with maemo != compatible with bugs23:38
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, That's a great goal... and acheaving this 99% of the time is great.  But there are times it needs to change.23:38
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, Not every app worked out of the box even when the PR releases hit from Nokia.23:38
Estel_if powertop is screwed, it's not kp fault23:38
Estel_sure thing23:38
Estel_and good point from Woody1461923:38
Estel_pr.1.2 broke TONS of things23:39
DocScrutinizerWoody14619: if you can convince 99% of experienced kernel and system architects that tere's simply no other way,then maybe23:39
Estel_no one said to Nokia "You won't hijack maemo"23:39
chem|stcssu is to fix whatever is possible by not destroying the base everything further upstream should go to mer23:39
DocScrutinizerEstel_: bullshit23:39
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  100% of our kernel developers is 2 people23:39
DocScrutinizertell me which app broke by migration 1.2->1.323:39
Estel_1.1->1.2 I said23:39
DocScrutinizerEstel_: you rnotion of kernel developers is 100% differing to mine23:40
Estel_and for that, just use archive23:40
Estel_ok, I'm talking about people actively working on our kernel right now.23:40
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, Several... Mappero, nhouse, Xploder....23:40
Estel_btw, I'm sure our powertop is screwed, as it's hardcoded to 600 mhz23:41
Estel_is it valid for You?23:41
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, It took offline over a month to update their app to work. Mappero it still busted.23:41
* cehteh needs more popcorn, bitches!23:41
DocScrutinizerso what? now you're the ones to decide we do that shit again (if such shit actually ever happened)?23:41
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, and it was clearly PR1.2->PR1.323:41
chem|stEstel_: 1.1->1.2 and 1.2->1.3 broke things as there were chip firmware upgrades involved incompatible to previous versions so there was no fallback or downgrade possible anymore, you devicce was stuck with what was installed last...23:41
Estel_nope, it's just that feasibility > ideology23:41
Estel_chem|st,  agreed23:42
chem|stcehteh: good evening23:42
* chem|st grabs some of cehteh's popcorn23:42
Estel_it's quite funny as we're discussing how much kernel's versions we should have...23:42
* freemangordon wants too23:42
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, I'm not arguing that we need to follow Nokia's lead on this.  Just saying, don't let being 100% compatible hobble other things.23:42
Estel_while we have NOT enough people to work on current sole kernel23:42
DocScrutinizerhonestly guys, I (co-)managed whole projects (see ~joerg) - I'm not going to continue discussion on that level now23:42
Estel_well, it's Your right to leave discussion at any time, of course23:43
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, If something is majorly broken, and can't be worked around, consider the possability of that change.23:43
Estel_I'm sure shape of projects will appear naturally, anyway, by developers working on them23:43
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Estel_honestly, I enjoy ideological conversationsp but we need more "just get things done" and doers23:44
chem|stdiscussion ended, that's what we all agree about...oO( freemangordon gimme back my popcorn #@%&*(@$^ )23:44
Woody14619In all honesty, I'm not even sure what we're talking about originally... but screaming that changing anything is hijacking things, and remaining 100% with stock is a bit of a strech, when Nokia itself has changed what "stock" means at least twice.23:45
merlin1991btw Estel_ about "replacing" cssu maintainers, who's entitled todo so?23:45
chem|stthis is now about popcorn23:45
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freemangordonchem|st: well, ok, take your popcorn back23:45
Estel_merlin1991,  deva, obviously, but I doubt it will ever happen. In fact I'm sure not23:45
chem|stWoody14619: Estel_ mer/nemo is what you are looking for... not hijacking cssu23:46
Estel_it was just response to religiously saying "no one will change anything cause we decide"23:46
chem|stand that is another channel for sure23:46
Estel_deva, it's nordic god, don't You know? :P23:46
merlin1991nope :D23:46
Estel_chem|st,  mer is different project23:46
Estel_keep it out of scope please, thanks23:47
chem|stEstel_: so is cssu...23:47
Estel_cssu is people :D23:47
chem|styou are looking for some project build around PK23:47
Siceloand mer?23:47
Estel_if devs won't like maintainers religiously saying "no change!" cssu will just become something else23:47
Woody14619chem|st, when mer/nemo has a working sync app, call me.  While I applaud those working on it, I don't see it going very much farther than it already is.23:47
Estel_in fact it's academic discussion23:47
chem|stor even around meego...23:47
freemangordonchem|st, why maemo cssu is out of maemo scope?23:48
Estel_more "do", less "what will happen if"23:48
Estel_seriously, who is most active CSSU pair of devs now?23:48
Woody14619.oO(And people say all the drama is in TMO.... ;) )23:48
merlin1991Woody14619: we have our own kind of drama here :D23:48
chem|stWoody14619: facebook broke so will others... wanna code all plugins from scratch?23:48
Estel_Woody14619,  lol23:48
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Estel_so tell facebook that the6're not compatible23:49
Estel_and that they won't hijack maemo23:49
freemangordonchem|st, there is a facebook plugin in nemo?23:49
chem|stfreemangordon: it is out of scope if you are looking to dump nokia-maemo-base23:49
Woody14619chem|st, Facebook broke for iPhone as well... original iPhone 1 users are not getting updates.  Want to update that?  At least here we have the option.23:49
freemangordonAFAIK no, so what is the difference? It will be fritten from scratch in any way23:49
Estel_honestly, freemangordon and Pali are most active devs on both CSSU and KP23:50
Woody14619Bingo... freemangordon nailed it in 1. :)23:50
Estel_cooperation between two projects is profitable to all23:50
Estel_in fact, it's going to consolidate IMO23:50
Estel_and that also sounds very profitable for whole thing.23:50
Woody14619I think lots of people are active....  being more active than another doesn't dictate terms. (Not always anyway)23:51
chem|stfreemangordon: seen some fb icon in nemo videos, could be just an icon though ;) sure it will be like any other23:51
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freemangordonthe difference (as I see it) is that 99% of the other stuff is still OK in maemo, while not in nemo.23:51
Estel_Woody14619,  sure thing23:51
Estel_I just mean that devs decide with code23:51
Estel_user with install23:51
Estel_no one can force anything23:51
Estel_either by "change" ideology23:52
Estel_or "you won't hijack" one23:52
Estel_it's unrelated what is written on CSSU wiki.23:52
Woody14619yes, but encouraging that mentality leads to a mess.  One look at OpenMoko will show you how slippery that slope is.23:52
Estel_it's important what it will become via work done on it23:52
chem|stfreemangordon: getting nemo to work would track some attention...23:52
freemangordonso changing the core OS just to have a working facebook applet (if we take that as an example) sounds inefficent to me23:52
freemangordonchem|st, sure think :)23:52
DocScrutinizerEstel_: and maintainers decide about repo. period23:53
Woody14619Some structure is good.  And attempting to retain compatability is a good thing most times.  The trick is to know when and where to compromise.23:53
chem|stit is inefficient23:53
Estel_Woody14619,  DocScrutinizer will become mad if You keep pointing why OpenMoko is failure ;)23:53
DocScrutinizerusers=install, devels=code, maintainers=repo23:53
DocScrutinizerEstel_: yiu're an idiot, with all respect23:53
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  maintainer are not rulers.23:53
Estel_no problem ;)23:53
DocScrutinizersure they are23:54
Estel_although i preffer meritocratic arguments23:54
chem|stEstel_: they are... look at debian for example23:54
DocScrutinizerthe sole rulers about that particular repo23:54
Estel_no, they're not23:54
merlin1991and why not?23:54
freemangordonsure, as long as there are new/updated packages to maintain23:54
chem|stif maintainers say no it does mean no23:54
DocScrutinizerEstel_: make that change, tell me how23:54
Estel_because when maintainers become too found on themselves23:54
DocScrutinizeryou're freew to fork23:54
Estel_and obstruct changes that majorfity wants23:54
chem|stthen it is called suse?23:54
Estel_project is split like OpenOffice23:54
merlin1991then either there is a body ably to remove them or you fork23:55
merlin1991that's it23:55
DocScrutinizeryou're not telling maintainers what to do23:55
Estel_and maintainers are left with dead and "empty" repo23:55
merlin1991the maintianers themselves still wont change23:55
Estel_yea, but they don't matter anymore23:55
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, I'm confused on why you see this as an "us vs them" thing?23:55
Estel_oracled don't matter about FOSS office now23:55
chem|stthere is no mozilla firefox on debian repos guess why...23:55
Estel_they can stand whener they want23:55
DocScrutinizerso what? your problem?23:55
Woody14619DocScrutinizer, I don't think anyone is demanding you (or anyone else) do something.23:55
Estel_if maintainers think that is good to become sole figure guarding cementry, why not23:56
Estel_sure thing, no demanding anywhere23:56
chem|stand charging cssu to become what you just discuss will endup like debian sid23:56
Estel_I just don't agree with "You will do as we say"23:56
Estel_devs are doing.23:57
Woody14619chem|st, which is why most Debian users have a second repo installed (at higher priority) to pick up Firefox and other tools.23:57
Estel_devs are doing.23:57
Estel_users using and feedbacking23:57
Estel_sorry, mistake echo23:57
chem|stWoody14619: someone altered the code to fit debian and called it iceweasel!23:57
Estel_iceweasel is, unfortunately, a little too slowly developed for most users.23:58
freemangordonchem|st, but if nothing new comes because of some ideological reasoning, then there is a risk CSSU to stagnate23:58
Estel_there is a risk that something else will become cssu23:59
chem|stI optout at that point thanks...oO(unstable is to fast for "most" users...)23:59
Estel_and old cssu become open office23:59
Estel_i.e. thing that only  pretend that it's existing23:59
Woody14619Same thing happens with Fedora.  Open-only mentatlity forces a large majority of the users to add another repo just to get better than 640x480 displays...23:59

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