IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2012-05-23

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peturtrying to hunt down bad battery life, phone seems stuck in C2 most of the time, power domain 'per' being active... am I correct that this is uarts and stuff? Any hints at what could be causing it? Recently reflashed, running kp50 and cssu-testing.00:44
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DocScrutinizer51err, I'm not sure waht 'per' includes00:56
peturmaybe I should reflash and check step by step, wasting too much time tracking this down00:58
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ShadowJKdid you run powertop with charger connected?01:54
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GNUtoo-desktophi, does someone knows the mcBSP here? I wonder if I can read CLKXI in a register?01:57
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HurrianEstel_, I'm sorry, but I don't know. (I use Catorise to sort my stuff for me)02:14
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo -- N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | ** U 4got 2 VOTE!** | Source: | Chanlog:"08:14
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo -- N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan ! | | Source: | Chanlog:"08:14
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LaoLang_coolI think the volume is low when calling, although I've set the volume to the maximum08:34
LaoLang_coolI set it by the volume button on the top left side of N90008:34
Sc0rpiusbut do you set it DURING a call?08:35
Sc0rpiusor before a call?08:35
Sc0rpiusbecause they are different08:35
LaoLang_coolSc0rpius, I set it during the call08:36
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LaoLang_coolActually, the volume is big enough, but I think it can be higher at the maxmum level08:37
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Psiare there any phones available or being made that would suit as a n900 replacement?08:47
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DocScrutinizerbasically no08:59
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jaskathink i need to coax one guy who bought a n9 to sell me his old n90010:33
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Estel_I haven't bought N9, but I got N900 in ideal condition and reinforced SB port to sale10:45
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Estel_who remember name of fm radio driver module for N900?10:55
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Estel_javispedro, nice to know, but why haven't You released update sources to repos?11:21
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teotwakiEstel_: there is no capital on "You" or "Your" in English.11:33
teotwakiit's not German :P11:33
teotwakiit's just "you" or "your"11:34
Estel_teotwaki, know that already ;) Let's just assume it's a folklore of mine11:42
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Estel_If it makes you feel better, You may assume I'm using elisabethian type of english ;)11:43
infobotEstel_ meant: If it makes you feel better, you may assume I'm using elisabethian type of english ;)11:44
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teotwakiactually, even 5 centuries ago, "you" didn't take a capital :)11:47
Estel_it took in letters11:47
Estel_or other forms of respect11:47
Estel_strangely enough, "I" too, but I live still11:48
Estel_well, self respect isn't bad thing ;)11:48
Estel_FYI, it was also the case in most languages, and, it's still up to this date11:48
Estel_not only german, same for Polish, for example11:48
Estel_although,. in polish, like in english, common writing doesn't include "You" as a capitalised form11:49
Estel_but, it still live in letters and personal documents11:49
Estel_so i may assume polish is somewhere in middle ;)11:49
teotwakiI'd love a reference to "you" being capitalised in personal writings... Because even though I'm currently studying heterologies in English litt, I've never come across that.11:50
Estel_hm, odd enough11:50
teotwakiwell, other than when it's the first word of a sentence, obviously :)11:51
Estel_obviously. wait, im searching11:53
teotwakiEstel_: this being said, when I say "I'm currently studying", that's probably pushing it -- my girlfriend is doing a masters in that, I'm just tagging along when not at work. This being said, we are currently working on Melville's Clarel for a dossier, so I guess I'm entitled to saying I do study it :P11:53
Estel_for sure11:53
teotwaki(18000 lines is quite the poem :P)11:53
Estel_it seems that You're right, and shakespare used it only because it was reffered to King or Queen11:57
Estel_capitalised form of english You wasn't used since 12th century :/ I always knew I'm old fashioned ;)11:57
Estel_strangely enough, it's 2nd time I see someone carrying about it, in a short time11:57
Estel_+ never ever heard about it before11:58
Estel_seems like people are turning into etymology hobbyits11:58
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teotwakihobbyists :)11:58
Estel_I really like form of capitalised You, She Hew etc, as a form of showing respect, so it sounbds like a great challenge for me to remember about need to drop it ;)11:59
Estel_that's why I've called it a folklore of mine11:59
Estel_anyway, it was a nice topic for short discussion during recovering OptFS backup of 4Gb in size11:59
Estel_ffs, something crashed, and I got filesystem corrupted beyond repair11:59
Estel_device was semi-working, although, any command written in terminal left it in limbo state12:00
Estel_(temrinal only)12:00
Estel_no power menu etc12:00
Estel_I was able to connect through ssh, yet...12:00
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Estel_commands, despite being "accepted" (new line started after etc) it did nothing12:01
Estel_same for shutdown, reboot etc12:01
Estel_had to kill Xorg to force shutdown12:01
Estel_but optfs got screwed in the process :(12:01
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teotwakiEstel_: if you need to recover files, use photorec12:29
teotwakiEstel_: and ddrescue to dump12:29
Estel_fortunatelly nothiong critical, just annoyance, as recovering take time12:30
Estel_I had backup - not very recent ;) But I "mastereD" recovering optfs only and fixing desync issues with rootfs by hand12:30
Estel_damn, device doesn't boot maemo even after recovery, WTF?12:34
Estel_is it possible that I'll have to do full reflash for the first time even? *headache*12:35
SiceloEstel_: you might want to try NIN101's rescueOS12:36
Sicelothat's if you have some idea where the problem is :\12:36
Estel_thanks, but unfortunatelly, NFC, as I've restored working OptFS backup12:37
Estel_(without problems during restore)12:37
Estel_I can't imagine how rootfs could get screwed due to such random thing, but who knows12:37
Estel_erm, what filesystem are we using for rootfs12:38
Siceloubifs, i think12:38
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Estel_any way to recover this? it shouldn't require fsck nor have one12:43
Estel_framebuffe risn't help as it goes through it OK, but fail to displaye 5 dots12:44
Estel_just black screen with backlight on forever, not rebooting12:44
Estel_need to do forced power off via power button :(12:45
HRH_H_CrabEstel_: are you still making root filesystems for ez debian chroot?12:48
HRH_H_Crabis there any documentation anywhere about how to make those?12:49
Estel_hm? you just need debian partition12:49
Estel_image of it12:49
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HRH_H_Crabso just do something with a loopback and debootstrap?12:49
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Estel_it depends, what do You qant to achieve?12:52
Estel_creating images for easy debian isn't trivial, as installed components must play nicely with Maemo counterparts12:53
HRH_H_Crabi want to achieve a very minimal debian image with testing on it.12:53
Estel_see pulseaudio12:53
HRH_H_Crabi think the easiest way to do it might be to take your image, shift it to a slug or a zaurus12:53
HRH_H_Crabmount it there and just uninstall / update stuff.12:53
HRH_H_Crabwhenever i try and do similar on my phone it ends up rebooting itself12:53
Estel_yea, but installed components won't play nicely with maemo ones, until You don't need sound working etc12:53
HRH_H_Crab(even if i nice -n 19....)12:53
Estel_use swap on microSd *only*12:54
Estel_disable swpa on eMMC12:54
Estel_(it will help Maemo too, not only ED)12:54
HRH_H_Crabim not interested in sound.12:54
HRH_H_Crabi want to play with mosh.12:54
Estel_and see Ed thread, ther eyou have proposed settings related to swap12:54
Estel_swappiness proposed settings are depreciated12:54
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Estel_best way is to use my image, then, shrink it by uninstalling everything You don't need12:54
Estel_just mount image as loopback12:55
Estel_move content to dedicated partition12:55
Estel_(or work on image, although it's slower)12:55
Estel_and use chroot terminal or synaptic to get rid of unused stuff12:55
HRH_H_Crabis it normal that it keeps rebooting if i do apt-get update etc?12:55
Estel_after that, you might want to send Your image to qole, he will probably like to make it available for download12:55
HRH_H_Crabi read somewhere that if you nice it that doesnt happen.12:55
Estel_as minimalistic one12:55
Estel_nope, ncie is jsut a workaround, doens't work always12:56
HRH_H_Crabsilly watchdog thing.12:56
Estel_but it';s sign that You have suboptimal swap setup on your N90012:56
Estel_it may crash in anymemory hungry operation12:56
Estel_last few pages on Ed threrad were about that12:56
Estel_with proposed fixes12:56
HRH_H_Crabthanks i'll take a good look at that thread.12:57
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HRH_H_Crabive been a bit lazy - its 250 pages or so and the s/n is quite low!12:57
Estel_np, yw12:57
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BCMMis there an easy way to share my 3g connection on an existing infrastructure-mode wlan?13:20
BCMMmobilehotspot seems to want to create a new ad-hoc... the situation is that the wired isp here sucks today13:20
Estel_mobilehotspot is bets You can get13:21
Estel_= semi/ad-hoc13:21
BCMMdoes it support connecting to an infrastructure-mode network?13:23
Estel_ah, Yuo want to fully re-use13:23
BCMMi want to get a connection on a computer with no wireless card but a wired connection to a wireless router13:23
Estel_it depends on AP13:23
Estel_it it support DUN, no problem13:24
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MrPinguHi :)14:50
MrPinguI have recorded that video of wifite, but it only plays on N900.14:51
MrPinguuploading to YT now, hope it can display it14:58
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MrPinguIt worked :)15:39
MrPingumerlin1991: The result ^^ encoded via avimux, so it could probably smoother if I took mjpeg encoding, I guess?15:42
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Estel_MrPingu, nice work :)18:40
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Estel_hm, until swap fragmentatrion occur, there is only one big free space on swap partition19:00
Estel_(ahead of what was written)19:00
RaimuHar, Google's front page has a synthesizer app on.19:00
freemangordonEstel_, there is a speciol patch in kernel block driver for swap devices,. And it is made by Nokia19:00
Estel_at least for swap logic19:00
Estel_I see19:00
Estel_AFAIK, it just writes sequentialy, until all swap space is or was used19:00
Estel_only after that it starts to salvage opreviously used blocks19:00
freemangordonMaybe there is some logic error in it, kicking after "end" of the swap area19:00
Estel_quite possible19:01
Estel_well, it would be great, if ereswap wouldn't be needed :)19:01
freemangordonbecause what I saw in kernel block driver during my times with compcache is that when there are n pages of swap to be written, the driver searches it's mapping table for continuous space of at least n clusters19:03
freemangordonand there is a mapping table between swap page and physical cluster19:03
freemangordon(assuming page size == cluster size)19:03
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freemangordonat the end it sounds to me like a bug, damn, I wish there were at least 2-3 more kernel developers here :(19:04
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Estel_Yea, I wish it too19:07
Estel_unfortunatelly, kernel devs are quite hard to find19:08
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Estel_at least in our little community19:08
freemangordonEstel_, maybe I should disable this patch (Nokia one) to check how it will behave without it19:08
Estel_why not, but what's the thing path should do?19:08
freemangordonWell, it builds a kind of scather-gather list19:09
Estel_BTW, maybe it's just that searching for n free clusters is always slower than writing blindly "forward" of written space?19:09
* Estel_ listens19:09
Estel_<ShadowJK> The nokia modified swap algorithm is: Find largest free block in swap, start writing to that block until end of block, repeat find largest free blck. Over time, as stuff is allocated and freed, the largest free block becomes small, and unaligned. For optimal speed we want somethning like 1Mbyte alignment.19:09
Estel_(on cssu channel)19:09
freemangordonit maps n(non-sequental) swap pages, to n sequental clusters before writing19:10
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freemangordonShadowJK, what do you mean by saying "unaligned"19:11
freemangordonfrom the flash POV?19:11
Estel_btw, ShadowJK, I hope You've seen credits I've given You on latest package ;)19:12
* Estel_ would not like to see, that someone things it's his concept19:12
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freemangordonhmm, but then it is obvoius where our problems lie - we should not search for the largest, but for the smaller block19:12
freemangordonwhich fits our needs19:13
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ShadowJKI once plotted (through block dump) byte position of writes on Y axis, and time on x axis, and it showed a steadily climbing line of writes until it reached end of swap, after which it became groups of red dots, which became random red dots later19:13
ShadowJKNo, small write is very slow19:14
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freemangordonShadowJK, i mean - tha smallest block our n swap pages fit into19:14
freemangordonso it still will be sequental write19:14
freemangordon(even unaligned)19:15
ShadowJKIt will slow down future writes19:15
freemangordonwhy, after all there always will be a large enough block to hold the whole RAM, after all there is 768MB swap agains 256 RAM. Maybe I am missing something19:16
ShadowJKRam isn't dedicated to mirroring swap19:16
freemangordonShadowJK, let me explain, maybe I am wrong, but still19:17
Estel_freemangordon, if my poor predicting skills permit, it seems to me, that over time, free block will become smaller and smaller19:17
Estel_going to total entropy19:17
infobotEstel_ meant: heading to total entropy19:17
Estel_(free block on swap logical mapping)19:18
freemangordonwell, kernel does not evict RAM pages one by one, but on groups AFAIK19:18
ShadowJKThe default algorithm is something like "find free space nearest last read/write from/to swap", and this is dreadfully slow on flash :/19:18
Estel_freemangordon, writing them in pages just mean it will head into entropy slower + minimum size of single free block will be single page size19:18
ShadowJKThey're not freed in groups, however. That depends on what the apps do19:18
Estel_it makes final entroipy less painful, yet, still slowing down19:19
ShadowJKWrite to an area of memory that was swapped out: kernel reads in page from swap and marks it free19:19
Estel_exactly. That is why over time, red dots on ShadowJK's alghoritm become random19:19
freemangordonyes, and here is where big enough swap would kick in19:19
freemangordonwe will always have big enough sequental swap space available for the next swapping, if swap space is big enough. Or at least my six sense tells me that :D19:20
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Estel_hm, on heavy swap usage, it would fail19:21
ShadowJKBtw, if I accidentally load something gigantic, like fennec, swap is filled with a big chunk of what's almost exclusively fennec, and when I close it, that area of swap is almost entirely free, and the onset of swap fragmentation is delayed19:21
Estel_i.e. have 200-300 MB of swap used19:21
Estel_...which is not uncommon for browser or EasyDebian things19:21
Estel_and it becomes a problem, IIRC19:21
freemangordonsure, but we can use more that 768, can we?19:21
Estel_even when we would search first "big enough" free space19:21
Estel_sure thing19:21
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freemangordonmaybe it is a matter of finding the optimum swap size then?19:22
Estel_well, but, it would surely limit clutterness, yet, searching for first enough swap space still would be little slower than "just write sequentialy", yes?19:22
ShadowJKin my experience "big enough" only delays the slowdown. I have 2gig swapspace, and I usually notice slowdown once about 2.3 gig has been written :)19:22
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freemangordonShadowJK, that is inevitable with the current algorith19:23
Estel_ShadowJK, freeman means optimum swpa size if ekrnel would search for first big enough place in swap19:23
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Estel_instead of "biggest" free swap19:23
Estel_freemangordon, but swap sometimes also write more than 1 page etc19:23
Estel_so searching for every single writew wouldn't slow things down?19:24
ShadowJKfreemangordon; i think it's inevitable with any algorithm that can't reallocate pages that already exist in swap. I once had an idea of doing:19:24
Estel_you know, those 3 pages goes there, those 5 there, and this 1 there...19:24
freemangordonhmm, the other option would be swap de-fragmentation worker thread19:24
Estel_bug realocating pages already sitting in swap would require re-writing already written things, + writing new ones = more slowdown on already slow swap19:24
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Estel_honestly, as we have hardware wear-leveling anyway, the fastest thing would be to remap their logic location, without moving them physically on swap partition. But is it possible?19:25
ShadowJKdivide swap into 1 meg blocks. Write sequentially filling blocks. If no fully free block is found, find n most free blocks, collect used pages from those together into a fully filled block, hopefully gaining many more totally free blocks19:25
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ShadowJKa garbage collect19:25
ShadowJKEstel_; not possible19:25
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freemangordonShadowJK, yes, something like that19:26
Estel_If I would have to choose between swap of maximum allowable speed but requiring "refreshinbg" via ereswap, or swap not needing ereswap at all, but slower all-together19:26
Estel_due to some worker re-writing it...19:26
Estel_I would preffer faster swap needing reflash19:26
infobotEstel_ meant: I would preffer faster swap needing refresh19:27
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freemangordonEstel_, a well written garbage collector would be unnoticable from th user POV19:27
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Estel_if that's achievable, why not?19:27
ShadowJKswapoff/swapon is the quick and easy sh script defragmenter, it essentially reads in all pages and writes it to another fresh swap :D19:27
freemangordonbut you need a second swap space19:28
Estel_but, it need moving them to ram first19:28
Estel_and moving them to swap later19:28
Estel_both require time if You have 200 MB of swpa used19:28
* Woody14619 feels like a damn yo-yo... stupid network.19:28
Estel_which means you need to close everything19:28
Estel_and do reswap19:28
Estel_or it take ages19:28
* ShadowJK usually runs swap on microsd19:28
Estel_same here19:28
Estel_but it still take time and effort to do reswap19:28
freemangordonme too, but that is not a general solution for stick n90019:28
ShadowJKbecause it reduces the amount of random I/O to emmc19:29
Estel_IMO, swap on eMMC is depreciated19:29
* Woody14619 runs swap on sd, then runs a script via cron at 3am that swaps to internal then back to declutter. :)19:29
Estel_I educate people whenever I can, and it seems to make good effects19:29
Estel_Woody14619, sometimes I need to refresh swap few times a day19:29
Estel_or few times a hour in extreme cases :D19:29
freemangordonEstel_, after all I am a part of CSSU team :P19:30
Woody14619I generally have a moderate usage pattern, so for me once a day is plenty.19:30
Estel_BTw I noticed that poorly written html page with BIG pictures is able to use whole swap oin 10 minutes19:31
freemangordonand there are not only hackers/gurus in CSSU users19:31
Estel_freemangordon,that why I've put ereswap into repos19:31
Estel_...and spend 7 freaking hours to write proper script that automagically uipdates user rcS-late19:31
Estel_raping sed few times in the process19:31
freemangordonyeah, sure, I am joust trying to gather as much information as possible19:31
Estel_of course19:32
Estel_fikrst of all, swap on microSd = I/O conflicts in eMMC and more wear and tear to non-replaceable medium19:32
Estel_IMO it's totally depreciated19:32
Estel_I mean swap on eMMC19:32
Estel_not microSd ;)19:32
Estel_microSd is the opposite19:32
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freemangordonBTW I thing simulationg the fragmentation should be a relatively easy task19:33
freemangordonso one can check an algorithm performance19:33
freemangordondamn, a typo day again :D19:33
Estel_bTW, freemangordon, what do You t2hink about DocScrutinizer's idea of attaching jt6ag cable and gaining some more debug info through testpads?19:34
Estel_if doable, it should provide us really great core dumps19:34
freemangordonI am all with him :D19:34
freemangordonIf he can make it that will be great19:34
Estel_I hope he will take this project to results stage19:34
Estel_I would do this too, if I would understand what he means completely ;)19:35
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Estel_Woody14619, are You still here?19:35
freemangordonBTW there is rich-core... stuff in repos perfectly suitable to gather coredumps19:35
* Woody14619 was off in another window...19:35
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freemangordonWoody14619, you are using windows?19:36
Estel_Woody14619, as election is ending today, and, during candidate's numbers etc, we're sure that "someone" will be elected19:36
Woody14619I'm at work... so yes. :)19:36
Estel_what about setting up a hyphotetical Council Meeting tommorow?19:36
Estel_I mean rock solid council meeting with hyphotetical list of peoiple ;019:36
Woody14619You assume we're gonig to get results in a timely mannor? ;)19:37
freemangordonEstel_, that ^^^19:37
Estel_yea, as machine is doing it ;P19:37
Woody14619Considering it took 3 days to start the election, I'm not  quite certain we'll get a result at a given time.19:37
freemangordonand have in mind that all of the candidates shoudl agree on that19:37
Estel_freemangordon, sure thing19:37
Estel_that's why I'm catching them19:37
Woody14619I bet the machine wills stop taking votes at a given time, but seeing the results? Dunno. :)19:38
freemangordonas noone knows (i hope) in advance who will be elected19:38
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Estel_although some, like jrpchak, are quite hard to catch19:38
Estel_freemangordon, hahaha, it see,ms X-Fade know it already, probably19:38
Estel_considering most votes were allocated19:38
Estel_seriously though19:38
freemangordonwell, besides him19:38
Woody14619I will be on holiday Friday through Monday, so if it's going to be any time, it's tomorrow or Tuesday on.19:38
Estel_god damn thing about time differencews between continent and US19:39
Woody14619Monday is a US holiday (Memorial Day).19:39
Estel_Woody14619, what is Your's tommorow availability?19:39
Estel_today is our protest day, it seems... Taxi drivers protest vs deregulation of their professions, so they've blocked country capital19:40
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Estel_people are already thinking about revenge, like payiung with pouches of 1 gr (our equivalent of 1 cent)19:40
Woody14619Most of the day, 14-19 UTC and 20-23 UTC.19:41
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Woody14619.oO(I think I got that right? May be an hour off from daylight saving time)19:42
Woody14619Yup.. my bad... 13-18, and 19-22. :P19:43
Estel_first idea is 15 UTC19:43
Estel_so 14 UTC19:43
Estel_will check with others19:43
Woody14619: nods, that generally works for most people.  Morning for US, evening for EU.19:44
* Woody14619 sigh... IRC != Talker.19:44
Estel_erm, which UTC hour is now?19:45
Estel_what UTC time do we have now19:45
Estel_(daylight saving time problems)19:45
Woody1461916:45 right now.19:45
Estel_yea, checked that too in web... so it's all ok19:45
Woody14619I know it's always +5 or +4 (EST->UTC or EDT->UTC), just forget which is which sometimes.19:46
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freemangordonhmm, maybe 15:4719:51
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freemangordonnah, 16...19:51
Estel_god bless zerobin19:53
Estel_today I had to recover from backup, as my optfs *and* rootfs got screwed...19:53
Estel_and I've lsot some on-device work that I've made on eject19:53
DocScrutinizer51Estel_: I never suggested that19:53
Estel_fortunatelly, I've found zerobin of latest version, that I posted here for revision19:53
Estel_DocScrutinizer, that = what?19:53
DocScrutinizer51attacj JTAG19:54
Estel_sorry, i must have missunderstood19:55
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Estel_but You generally know which idea I'm reffering to?19:56
DocScrutinizer51I talked with two or 3 colleagues, all think ETB should be usable from maemo userland or at least kefrnel19:56
DocScrutinizer51no need jtag19:57
Estel_I'm almsot sure I remember that someone asked You about jtag and You replied yes19:57
Estel_but, whatever19:57
Estel_maybe it was 2 topics merge19:57
DocScrutinizer51chck chanlog, I said works via both19:58
* Estel_ nods19:58
DocScrutinizerEstel_: [2012-05-22 13:02:29] <DocScrutinizer51> freemangordon: IHI0014Q_etm_architecture_spec.pdf p129 "3.5 detailed register descriptions" ETMACTR [13:10]20:04
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DocScrutinizerState and mode comparison control. The assignment of these bits is:20:08
DocScrutinizerBit [13, 11] Non-secure state comparison control.20:08
DocScrutinizerBit [12, 10] Secure state comparison control.20:08
Estel_thanks a lot, although i dont understand single part of it ;)20:08
DocScrutinizerIf the processor does not implement the Security Extensions, bits [13, 11] are reserved,20:09
DocScrutinizertjhis clearly suggests that ETB is designed to work on platforms that use TrustZone Security Extensions (as well as on those who don't use or have it)20:10
Estel_erm, above sentence it means that trustzone security blabla doesn't matter...20:13
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Estel_cause it works with or without it?20:13
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DocScrutinizeryou know what's ETB/ETM aka CoreSight?20:28
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DocScrutinizerwel, obviously " Embedded Trace Macrocell ™ " according to the pdf link I pasted above ;-)20:29
ShadowJKfreemangordon; in your simulaion, randomly free 4k chunks of swap20:29
DocScrutinizerit's basically a (iirc) 6.8K size FIFO20:29
DocScrutinizerthat traces all instructions execured, and optionally also data of accessed registers20:30
DocScrutinizerand you can read out that FIFO by CPU20:31
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freemangordonShadowJK, :nod:, along with random allocation20:32
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DocScrutinizer>> An Embedded Trace Macrocell (ETM) is a real-time trace module providing instruction and data tracing of a processor. An ETM is an integral part of an ARM RealView® debug solution.<<20:38
ShadowJKfreemangordon; and then a non-sequential write has penalty of .5M read-modify-write cycle :)20:39
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DocScrutinizerwell, that's flash20:40
* ShadowJK finds his trace20:41
DocScrutinizerNAND flash, to be precise20:41
ShadowJKy is multiples of 512 or something20:41
ShadowJKnotice right after linear part ended, there's short tiny patch of linear in middle of y approx20:42
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ShadowJKbut then that too is spent20:42
DocScrutinizerfunny tiny scratch20:42
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DocScrutinizerand shit literally explodes right after that20:43
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I guess that tiny thingie is the fuse of the bomb you see exploding in right half20:44
ShadowJKthe dots get smaller and smaller20:44
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DocScrutinizersure as hell painting a 20 MB picture onto flying dust makes your kernel kswapd busy for 30min or an hour20:47
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ShadowJK also with reads, ends before fragmentation onset it seems20:49
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ShadowJKSome data seems to stick around, and most reads are of recently written data. tiny semi-permanent chunks are sprinkled like pixie dust in the wake of the swapmonster :)20:50
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* DocScrutinizer cleans dust off his LCD screen20:53
DocScrutinizernow if you'd color the dots modulo of PID of process owning the page... :-D20:55
ShadowJKSpeaking of dust, it's amazing how big fuses you can trip with a few teaspoons of metal dust inside a schuko20:56
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ShadowJK(and undetectable with multimeter)20:56
ShadowJKUnfortunately kswapd does most of accesses :)20:56
Estel_DocScrutinizer, sh expertise needed again, I've screwed something (what a surprise :P)20:57
Estel_lets say I have simple line of code20:57
DocScrutinizerunlikely ;-P20:57
Estel_[ ! -e /dev/sr* ];e=1 && banner20:58
Estel_banner is a function described properly, it function ok so lets skip that20:58
Estel_e is declared as 0 before20:58
r00t|homewil blow up if there is more than one match20:58
Estel_e+0 then comes our line20:58
Estel_good point, but anbother problem is there20:58
Estel_it set e to 1 even when /dev/sr0 is present20:58
Estel_(and sole)20:58
r00t|homebecuase you have a ; there20:59
r00t|homewith exectures the next command unconditionally20:59
DocScrutinizeryeah, completely messed up20:59
Estel_I see20:59
r00t|homeyou want && between ] and the assignment20:59
Estel_erm, so what should be there to execute next command (and banner) only if /dev/sr* is non-existing?20:59
r00t|home[ ! -e /dev/sr* ] && { e=1 ; banner ; }21:00
Estel_[ ! -e /dev/sr* ] && e=1 && banner21:00
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r00t|homeor just do it like normal people:21:00
Estel_well, my only excuse is that I'm debugging blue_led's code :P21:00
r00t|homeif [ ! -e /dev/sr* ] ; then e=1 ;  banner ; fi21:00
DocScrutinizerstill ignoring your own valid concern, r00t|home ?21:00
r00t|homebut it will still blow up if there is more than one match to the glob21:00
Estel_i'm not sure if "if" (:P) is suitable here, due to this shit being part of complex code21:01
Estel_gimme sex21:01
DocScrutinizeruse find21:01
r00t|homei'd rather use ls i think, find a little overkill21:01
DocScrutinizeror that21:01
r00t|homealso, why use that glob anyway?21:02
DocScrutinizerbut how you instruct ls to throw error on invokation w/o argument?21:02
r00t|homedoesn't make much sense21:02
DocScrutinizeraaah wait, it has invalid argument then21:02
r00t|homeDocScrutinizer: the shell does NOT remove non-matching globs, unless you set a special option21:02
Estel_wait a second, I'll show You context21:02
r00t|homeshopt nullglob21:02
Estel_where it's written21:02
r00t|homeEstel_: NOOOOOO....21:03
DocScrutinizerpretty please mot21:03
r00t|homeEstel_: we've seen enough of it by now ;)21:03
r00t|hometo know we don't want to see more21:03
Estel_honestly, without seeing at least full function, this is academic discussion21:03
Estel_as I can't apply Your suggestion21:03
DocScrutinizerls /foo/bar/xy* && echo "there's some xy*"21:04
Estel_without You considering context and adjusting suggestions to it21:04
DocScrutinizerls /foo/bar/xy* 2>/dev/null && echo "there's some xy*"21:04
r00t|homeDocScrutinizer: &>/dev/null21:04
r00t|homeDocScrutinizer: you want to surpress normal output aswell21:04
Estel_whatever, if You two doesn't want to see it, maybe someone else will like to help21:04
Estel_overall, it's simple code, simple small script21:04
r00t|homedidn't we help already?21:04
* Estel_ nods21:05
DocScrutinizerdang, s-off with shellscripts, I learnt about caif in andridiot whole day21:05
Estel_of course and zI'm grateful21:05
Estel_yet not to the point, when noob like me would be able to fix it properly21:05
DocScrutinizerls /foo/bar/xy* &>/dev/null && echo "there's some xy*"21:05
DocScrutinizerHELL, FIRE & BRIMSTONE21:06
Estel_echo will set variable for me that I can use later to decide something?21:07
* GeneralAntilles finally voted.21:07
Estel_GeneralAntilles,  thanks a lot for You participating in election21:07
DocScrutinizerif you dunno how to replace "echo TheFuck" by any other cmd, I think you shouldn't try shellscripting21:07
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GeneralAntillesEstel_, well, I probably should. I was partly responsible for the existence of the council in the first place. :P21:08
Estel_here is current state of this simple script21:08
Estel_set -xv tells me, obviously, that it fail.s due to ;e=121:09
Estel_any way of fixing it *without* breaking whole stuff?21:09
* DocScrutinizer surfs to youporn instead ;-P21:09
Estel_It have been written by blue_led and contained multiple mistakes, I've fixed them and want to publish it21:09
Estel_quite useful for optical drives users21:09
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  this script is more hardcore porn :P21:10
* Estel_ teases21:10
DocScrutinizerthat's why21:10
Estel_or softcore, it's like foo21:10
Estel_it's whatever You ever wanted to look at21:10
Estel_seriously, it's few liner, and I'm to noob to fix it ;) anyone could help?21:11
Estel_*Host*)[ ! -e /dev/sr* ];e=1 && ( banner21:11
Estel_is responsible for fail21:11
Estel_as it should set 1 only if /dev/sr* (anything) doesn't exist21:11
Estel_but obviously it sets 1 all the time21:12
Estel_now, I would like to also take r00t|home valid comment21:12
Estel_about it failing when more than 1 matches found21:12
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Estel_r00t|home,  teased enough to look at it? :P21:13
Estel_maybe some good looking if would fit there?21:13
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Estel_normally, it looked like that:21:14
Estel_*Host*)[ ! -e /dev/sr* ];e=1 && ( banner "Host mode detected, but no optical drive attached. Exiting...";e=1);;21:15
Estel_no wait21:15
Estel_*Host*)[ ! -e /dev/sr* ] && ( banner "Host mode detected, but no optical drive attached. Exiting...";e=1);;21:15
Estel_^^^like that21:15
Estel_but it had bad habit of setting it to 0, even if no /dev/sr* found21:15
Estel_+ exploded, when more than 1 matching21:16
Estel_idea how to fix it, anyone?21:16
Estel_*Host*)[ ! ls /dev/sr* ] && ( banner "Host mode detected, but no optical drive attached. Exiting...";e=1);;21:16
DocScrutinizerif ls /dev/sr* 6>/dev/null; then e=1; banner; fi;21:19
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: if ls /dev/sr* &>/dev/null; then e=1; banner; fi;21:20
DocScrutinizerif ! ls /dev/sr* &>/dev/null; then e=1; banner; fi;21:20
DocScrutinizerif ls /dev/sr* &>/dev/null; then :; else e=1; banner; fi;21:21
DocScrutinizerls /dev/sr*21:22
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DocScrutinizerif [ 0 -eq $?] ; then e=1; banner; fi;21:23
DocScrutinizerif [ 0 -ne $?] ; then e=1; banner; fi;21:23
Estel_hehe thanks for plentor of solutions21:24
Estel_trying them now...21:24
Estel_and those () present in original script, not needed?21:24
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DocScrutinizeryou still think I'll look at that script again?21:26
Estel_no :P will try everything myself21:26
Estel_and ask if all effort ,to no avail21:26
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Estel_thanks a loor checking it21:27
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Estel_DocScrutinizer,  ok, now my question not related to above code, at least directly21:34
Estel_when I try to mount filesystem for optical drive with no disc inside, ZI get, hopefully, such output:21:34
Estel_mount: mounting /dev/sr0 on /media/cdrom failed: No medium found21:34
Estel_I would like to write simple if21:35
Estel_making banner output different for such situation21:35
Estel_than situation, when disc is present but mounting failed21:35
Estel_any idea how to identify former case in sh script?21:35
Estel_i.e. how to make sh script "catch" this "no medium found" reply21:35
Estel_my idea is simple:21:36
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Estel_if <such reply caught>; banner "message1": else banner "messagea2"; fi;21:37
Estel_the problem is with method to caught this output properly21:37
Estel_I'm sure there is a way21:37
Estel_exit code of mount is same (failure) on both no medium found and other problems, yep?21:38
Estel_so can't use simple ||21:38
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DocScrutinizeryou're sure there's such an output?21:42
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Estel_DocScrutinizer ^^^21:46
Estel_I mean, output in terminal21:46
Estel_it's different for other problems21:46
Estel_I wonder how mount know that sr0 is something that contains (should) media21:47
Estel_but it does21:47
Estel_sr0 exist, yet, trying to mount it without CD or DVD inside gives 'essage as I've pasted before21:47
DocScrutinizersrX is supposed to be sth like that21:47
Estel_of course21:48
Estel_I already adjusted this script to give proper answer when mounting fail instead of dying silently, but, it would be nice to make different output banner for no disc present21:48
Estel_and "mounting failed" overall error with mounting21:48
DocScrutinizerif [ "some message" == $(command <parameter) ]; then...21:49
DocScrutinizerif [ "some message" == "$(command <parameter)" ]; then...21:49
Estel_ah, so it will know answer... lovely21:49
Estel_else, just command <parameter>21:50
Estel_but but21:50
Estel_wont if [ "some message" ==$(command <parameter)" ]21:50
Estel_already mount it in case of disc present?21:51
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Estel_then trying to mount it again after "else" would give false error mesage about device in use21:51
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DocScrutinizerif [ "root" == $(sudo whoami) ]; then echo "test was true"; fi21:52
Estel_generally, it must either mount it with success, and give banner1, or fail to mount it due to lack of disc and give banner2, or fail due to other reasons and give banner321:52
Estel_I see, but how it can see reply to mount command without trying?21:52
Estel_it's just simulating command and getting proper output? 0_o21:53
Estel_even with mount related to hardware devices?21:54
Estel_(that could have different state totally independently of N900 and without informing the latter about status change, i.e. disc present or not)21:54
Estel_(unless N900 actually tries to mount it)21:54
Estel_oh, got idea21:55
DocScrutinizercase "$(sudo whoami)" in \n "root") echo "root";; \n user) echo user; \n beep;; \n *) echo "neither root nor user"; \n reboot;; \n esac21:55
Estel_what about21:55
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Estel_mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom || if [ "no media" == "$(mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom)" ]; then banner "no disc"; else banner "generic error"; fi;21:57
Estel_DocScrutinizer,   ^^^,   should work I think?21:58
DocScrutinizerno, you invoke it twice21:58
Estel_2nd time only if 1st fail21:58
DocScrutinizerso?? is that sane?21:59
Estel_but it won't mess with situation when mounting was ok21:59
Estel_so wont give false error for success21:59
Estel_and if it fails, it just check why and give answer based on that21:59
Estel_= no false answer in any condition21:59
Estel_calling it twice isn't a problem, problem was with false errors or positives22:00
Estel_but of course I'll gladly read better solution and learn analysing it22:00
DocScrutinizerno, you'll answer hehe and then ignore any suggestion of better alternatives22:02
RaimuDocScrutinizer, what's the difference between CSOC and RSOC in bq27k queries?22:02
RaimuSorry to burst in asking dumb things.22:03
Estel_how those with root was related?22:03
DocScrutinizerthe one is adjusted to take into account the temperature etc of cell22:03
Estel_whoiam doesn't interfere like checking mount reply22:03
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RaimuDoc, thanks. :)22:04
Estel_case "$(sudo whoami)" in \n "root") echo "root";; \n user) echo user; \n beep;; \n *) echo "neither root nor user"; \n reboot;; \n esac22:04
Estel_here You also call it twice22:04
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Estel_case "$(mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom)" in \n "no media") echo "disc not in tray";; \n generic_error) echo failed_totally; \n mounted_properly;; \n *) echo "mounted properly"; \n mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom;; \n esac22:06
Estel_case "$(mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom) mount it already for good?22:07
Estel_I think I get it22:07
r00t|homeif ! mount cdrom ; then echo an error occured ; else echo ok ; fi22:07
Estel_r00t|home,  You haven't read whole story22:08
Estel_there could be 2 reasons of error22:08
Estel_and I want to give different messages on them22:08
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Estel_one is for disc not in tray22:08
Estel_another one for generic error22:08
Estel_but, it can be checked *only* during real mounting attempt22:08
DocScrutinizerand what makes you think the error msg of mount cmd isn't ok for your banner text?22:09
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Estel_not verbose enough :P22:09
Estel_someting like "mount: no media found" is ugly22:09
DocScrutinizerEstel_: do a22:09
Estel_and it's GUI tool, so I needd answer via banner22:10
DocScrutinizerresult=$( mount dev/srwhatnot 2>&1 )22:10
Estel_or user won't see it22:10
DocScrutinizerthen test for $result22:10
Estel_good idea, but result mount it already22:11
Estel_if it's OK22:11
Estel_and if result is wrong22:11
Estel_I need to try mounting agaion to probe for answer content22:11
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Estel_suboptimal I guess, like my previous suggestion with ||22:12
Estel_or result will be direct answer?22:12
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Estel_call me noob but I don't know what 2>$1 exactly does22:13
Estel_although I've seen it many times before22:13
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DocScrutinizerignore it, it's fixing a problem you haven't even detected yet22:14
DocScrutinizerand &1, NOT $122:15
Sc0rpiusdon't do it like that22:15
Sc0rpiusdo it like hmm22:15
Sc0rpiusres=`mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom`22:15
Sc0rpiusif [ $? != 0 ]; then echo this failed.22:16
Sc0rpiusmount will always return -1 if it fails.22:16
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Sc0rpiusand if you somehow want the output anyway you have it in $ret22:16
* DocScrutinizer heads out, as that's too much22:16
DocScrutinizerNO, YOU DON'T22:17
DocScrutinizeras that's stderr output22:17
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Sc0rpius<DocScrutinizer> if [ 0 -ne $?] ; then e=1; banner; fi;22:17
Sc0rpiusbasically same thing I just said.22:17
Sc0rpiusres=`mount /dev/sr0 /media/cdrom 2>&1 ` <-- big deal.22:19
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> ls -l xxxdfd22:19
DocScrutinizerls: Zugriff auf xxxdfd nicht möglich: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden22:19
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> x=$(ls -l xxxdfd)22:19
DocScrutinizerls: Zugriff auf xxxdfd nicht möglich: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden22:19
Sc0rpiusthat's just in case I want that output.22:19
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> echo $x22:19
Sc0rpiuswtf language is that22:19
Sc0rpiusx=$(ls -l xxxdfd 2>&1)22:19
Sc0rpiusnaikel@ubuntu:~$ x=$(ls -l xxxdfd 2>&1)22:20
Sc0rpiusnaikel@ubuntu:~$ echo $x22:20
Sc0rpiusls: cannot access xxxdfd: No such file or directory22:20
DocScrutinizerthat's "never compare output strings, fool! unless you've set LANG=C" language22:20
Sc0rpiusin that I agree.22:20
Sc0rpiusand not only that22:20
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Sc0rpiusobviously the OS language also matters22:20
Sc0rpiuseverybody should have their OSes in english anyway22:21
DocScrutinizerok, now you agree22:21
Sc0rpiusNO MATTER what native language you have22:21
* NIN101 grabs some popcorn. 22:21
Sc0rpiusOS should be installed IN ENGLISH22:21
Sc0rpiusbut that's not the topic here22:21
DocScrutinizerwhen I suggested exactly same shite as you with>>naikel@ubuntu:~$ x=$(ls -l xxxdfd 2>&1)<< you said "no, don't do it like that"22:21
Sc0rpiusanyway my main point was "use $?"22:21
Sc0rpiusthat was just demonstration you can capture stderr22:22
Sc0rpiusnot a solution of the problem.22:22
Sc0rpiusI insist, my main point was "use $?"22:22
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Sc0rpiusabout this:22:24
Sc0rpius<Estel_> there could be 2 reasons of error22:24
Sc0rpiusman mount22:24
Sc0rpius/RETURN CODES22:24
Sc0rpiusthere are different return codes for $?22:24
Sc0rpiusyou can check against them22:24
Sc0rpiusand give different messages22:24
DocScrutinizerthe point is Estel_ doesn't even understand the first approach22:24
DocScrutinizerand I'm out22:25
DocScrutinizerthat's really too much for my mood22:25
Estel_bye ;) anyway, thanks for edu material for analysis22:25
Sc0rpiuspatience my friend :)22:25
Estel_don't be sad, remember when You've lost credit card?22:25
Sc0rpiusI lost a credit card once22:25
Sc0rpiusand then I found it like 30 minutes later in a parking lot I already left22:26
Estel_DocScrutinizert told funny story about how he lost it22:26
Estel_he was buying something in vendor machine22:26
Estel_thinking about how poorly it's developed, because it gives goods before asking to take credit card22:26
Estel_thought about it still 20 meters away22:27
Estel_and after 30 min, realized he left his card there22:27
Estel_...which just makes his reasoning about poor design valid ;)22:27
Estel_except for part when he though "it could make idiots into losing card"22:28
Sc0rpiusthat's funny22:28
MohammadAGkarma's a bitch, you're gonna lose it in the same machine some day22:28
Estel_I hope DocScrutinizer doesnt mind I told this story again22:28
Estel_karma? TMO one? :P22:29
infobotEstel_ meant: karma? one? :P22:29
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Estel_Sc0rpius,  You're also experienced @ sh script, yes?22:30
MohammadAGwho isn't :p22:31
Sc0rpiusbut mostly bash22:31
Sc0rpiusthough I have made some scripts in ksh and other weird shells22:31
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Estel_I see22:34
Estel_Sc0rpius,  honestly, what 2>&1 exactly does22:34
Estel_MohammadAG,  I'm not (who isn't)22:35
Estel_I would call myself beginner, kinda22:35
Sc0rpiusit means the second standard output is redirected to the first one22:35
Estel_(beginner > just user)22:35
Sc0rpiusthe second standard output is stderr22:35
Sc0rpiusthe first one is stdout22:35
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Sc0rpius> == 1>22:35
Estel_I see. What is that supposed to fix?22:36
Sc0rpius> outputfile == 1> outputfile22:36
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Sc0rpiusit just redirects stderr (where errors are printed) to the stdout22:36
Estel_all right22:36
Sc0rpiuswhen you type a command and it shows an error, it's shown in stderr22:36
Estel_without it, it isn't?22:36
Sc0rpiusthat's why a $(mount something) that fails is always empty22:36
Estel_roger that22:37
Sc0rpiusbecause there was no output to stdout22:37
Sc0rpiusanyway like DocScrutinizer22:37
Sc0rpiusyou shouldn't compare strings22:37
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Sc0rpiusbecause that will only work in the language of your OS, if the script is for the masses, and people has their Maemo in spanish, it'll fail22:37
Estel_roger roger...22:37
Estel_so exit code approach is only one possible?22:38
Sc0rpiusit's the best approach22:38
Estel_and if mount give only 1 error code, but different string output?22:38
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Sc0rpiusthere are several return codes for mount, you can check against them and show different messages22:38
Sc0rpiusthere's a RETURN CODES section when you type: man mount22:39
Estel_the point is, as You're probably aware, that it's different situation when no media found22:39
Estel_I know22:39
Estel_I'm asking just in case writing wrappers for poorlhy wrfitten program22:39
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Estel_that can have different string output yet same error code22:39
Estel_how to act in such situation?22:43
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Sc0rpiuswhat are the different errors you get?22:44
Estel_in this case, probably error codes work, but:22:44
Estel_mount: mounting /dev/sr0 on /media/drom failed: no media found22:45
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Estel_no media found is key part22:45
Estel_but, it may be different in other languages22:46
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DocScrutinizer51LANG=C ls -l XXXxXxx22:52
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Estel_Sc0rpius,  do You have ereswap installed, in any case?22:56
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Estel_or, Your rcS-late is vanilla one?22:56
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  You have some vanilla N900, yep? Could You pastebin me content of vanilla rcS-late?22:57
Estel_fuck no22:57
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Sc0rpiusit will be different in other languages.22:57
DocScrutinizer51I think this one isn't exactly vanilla22:57
Estel_in fact I need just vanilla part enabling swap22:58
Estel_+ one line above and one under22:58
SiceloEstel_: mine is unmodified, unless KP & CSSU modify it :\22:59
Estel_no, its ok22:59
Siceloyou lost the one i gave before? ;)22:59
Estel_BTW DocScrutinizer 2nd questiob - I agree that shell operating language should be english, but how do You change it in N900?22:59
Estel_Sicelo, yes22:59
Estel_dpkg-reconfigure locales doesn't work23:00
DocScrutinizer51LANG=C ls -l XXXxXxx23:00
DocScrutinizer51generally speking: LANG=C <any_command>23:00
Estel_Sicelo,  I have had to restore rootfs and optfs today23:00
DocScrutinizer51sets $LANG to 'C'23:00
DocScrutinizer51for that command, temporarily23:00
Estel_yea. But for good?23:00
Siceloyou finally managed without reflash?23:01
DocScrutinizer51LANG=cz_CZ   ;in .profile or whatever initfile23:01
Estel_Sicelo,  sure thing, thanks to backupmenu23:01
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  thanks23:02
DocScrutinizer51export LANG=cz_CZ   ;in .profile or whatever initfile23:02
Estel_Sicelo,  strangely enough, my rootfs content was corrupted23:02
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  last question, when I want to set it for this terminal session only, not single command or all?23:03
Siceloyw. when you say rootfs content, you mean on N900, or the backupmenu-saved one?23:03
Estel_had to reestore both optfs and rootfs23:03
DocScrutinizer51export LANG=cz_CZ23:03
Estel_normally, optfs would be enough23:03
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  I see23:03
DocScrutinizer51without export it won't take effect even for shellscripts you start from that shell23:04
Estel_I see23:05
Estel_odd enough, export LANG=pl_PL doesn't work for maemo23:06
Estel_or it does23:06
Estel_but special chars are screwed23:06
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Estel_pl_PL.utf8 fix that23:07
DocScrutinizer51Estel_: man -a locale23:07
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Estel_Maemo got mans crippled23:07
Estel_I'm on device, remember that. Will search in net23:08
DocScrutinizer51we got it uncrippled :-P23:08
Estel_by MAG's package?23:08
DocScrutinizer51(we = MohammadAG , me)23:08
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Estel_I see. Will install it23:08
Estel_noob noobish question, how to increase backscroll lines in osso-xterm23:09
Estel_longer man's are cut in middle23:09
Estel_even tar one23:09
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DocScrutinizer51not here23:10
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Estel_^^^ ???23:12
nox-just pipe it to less23:12
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nox-instead of scrolling the window23:13
Estel_"pipe it to less" what does it mean?23:13
DocScrutinizer51isn't less a dependency in mandb-n900??23:14
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nox-actually yes for man it should already be called, hmm23:14
NIN101it means: command | less23:14
nox-yes, sorry23:14
Estel_ok. what it does, actually?23:15
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, I think not23:15
MohammadAGit should be installed, but I think I haven't depended on it23:15
nox-lets you navigate thru a longer text, space one page forward, return one line, b one page back, / search, etc23:15
MohammadAGto increase backscroll, edit osso-xterm's gconf23:16
DocScrutinizer51Estel_: apt-get install less23:16
NIN101off, bye23:18
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Estel_nox-,  thanks23:22
Estel_MohammadAG,  thanks a lot23:22
DocScrutinizer51Estel_: h gor help23:22
Estel_and path to osso-xterm's gconf is? or best way to find it myself?23:23
DocScrutinizer51forget that23:23
Estel_Sicelo,  thanks23:23
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  ???23:23
Estel_Sicelo,  gconftool-2 --all-dirs /apps/osso/xterm fails23:27
Sicelogconftool-2 -R /apps/oso/xterm23:28
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Estel_thanks, my mistake23:34
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Estel_on transreflective scren (N900), does drawing white or black generates different battery usage?23:48
Estel_I know it's marginal, as backlight take most, but23:48
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