IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-11-11

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SpeedEvilqt stuff is not quite wasted on sybian00:00
DocScrutinizerI think android is a waste of time, but .. that's just me ;-D00:00
corecodedoes anybody have updated telepathy-gabble packages?00:00
rlyI closed HAM, but it still says E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?00:00
ShadowJKqt also works on lunix desktop and windows desktop00:00
rlyHmm, it is just slow.00:01
DocScrutinizerrly: apt-worker needs up to 5min to finish00:01
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rlyThe GUI was gone, but it was still open. Odd semantics.00:01
rlyDocScrutinizer: apt-worker was done.00:01
rlyDocScrutinizer: top via ssh.00:01
rlyMeh, no gdb700:01
rlyStill, cool that it actually works :)00:02
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merlin1991rly: the autoupdate "feature" lets apt-worker spinn in the bg from time to time00:04
rlyIs there also a simulator for the n900?00:04
rlyOr a way to install all the debugging symbols for everything dependent on browserd?00:05
Sicelosdk, i suppose00:05
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MacerDocScrutinizer: lol... i thought the url said it all00:27
Macerthe nokia n900 battery drop didn't give it away?00:28
Macerafter i was explaining how my battery went from 60 to 0.4.. and how wordpress wouldn't let me upload a png for the screenshot?00:28
DocScrutinizeryou didn't00:30
DocScrutinizeror I missed that, or it dropped off my stack00:30
DocScrutinizermaybe you mixed channels00:31
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DocScrutinizeryou had a proper story in #maemo-ssu00:35
DocScrutinizerand nobody complained about posting an URL there00:35
DocScrutinizerhere... not so much00:35
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jef91Anyone else have problems with the Easy Debian installer causing the N900 to restart?00:36
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ZogG_N9ruskie ping00:43
MacerDocScrutinizer: for future reference i would never post a link in the # unrelated to maemo or at the very least a mobile device which is related to something maemo does00:44
DocScrutinizerMacer: doesn't help. I'm still not clear about what's that URL00:45
Macerit is the battery eye graph of my battery going from 60 to 0.4 in 1 second00:45
DocScrutinizerso I still have the choice to ignore it or click it to find out what it might be00:45
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DocScrutinizersee, it's easy to get a nice URL post instead of an annoying ome :-D00:45
Macerthe url had the name of it in the url lol00:46
DocScrutinizerthis one sentence would have made a whole lot of a difference00:46
Macerah well.. to each their own :)00:46
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Maceri just left it on until it turned off on its own and am hoping the calibration fixes itself00:47
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DocScrutinizerdepends on what this battery mon tool is using as data source00:48
DocScrutinizerwhen it's bq27200, then it's rather normal and next time should be better00:49
DocScrutinizerI.E. bq27200 will calibrate00:49
DocScrutinizerit probably just switched from xx% to 5% when voltage reached the discharge threshold00:49
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DocScrutinizerif otoh the data source was bme/hal then ... oh well it's anybody's guess00:50
Macerit was just so steep00:51
Macernot only that but my bme advanced power applet as well as the battery widget that uses bme saw it dive00:52
Macerbut then it stayed at 0.4 for like an hour and stayed there .. phone on...  high usage00:52
DocScrutinizerMacer: bq27200 switches from 100% to 5% happily when voltage reaches discharge threshold00:52
Maceri see00:53
DocScrutinizerhmm, battery staying at 0.4% for an hour of heavy usage is a bit weird. Probably that's been some of bme's lies then00:53
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DocScrutinizererr s/5%/6%/ iirc00:54
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ZogG_N9v foor vendetta01:11
ZogG_N9i miss n900 keybaord ;(01:12
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infobotit has been said that scrutinizing is schmutinizing01:47
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jonwilbah, I accidentally deleted my "n900 stuff to do" list :(02:25
jonwilI remember most of what was on it02:27
jonwilso that's not a problem02:27
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jonwiloooh good, I found most of the stuff on a pastebin paste :)02:35
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merlin1991jonwil: did you actively search for it?03:08
jonwilyes I searched for the missing info03:09
merlin1991just wondering03:09
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DocScrutinizer~factinfo scrutinizing03:10
infobotscrutinizing -- created by jabis <> 1h 25m 15s ago; last modified 1h 16m 39s ago  by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 3 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 41s ago; it has been locked by DocScrutinizer.03:10
mr_jrtAnyone else having issues with
infobot[scrutinizing] what DocScrutinizer does after eating some datasheets for breakfast03:11
infobot[scrutinizing] what DocScrutinizer does after eating some datasheets for breakfast03:11
merlin1991what IS
DocScrutinizeraah, [2011-11-11 00:46:29]03:11
mr_jrtUsed for uploading to extras-devel03:12
DocScrutinizererrr, some place to drop project sources for buildhost?03:12
merlin1991I've always used the assistant :D03:12
mr_jrt...and in this case, used for git access to my garage project03:12
* DocScrutinizer too03:12
merlin1991GET LOST APT-WORKER03:13
merlin1991srly what the fuck does he do now? ham just updated the package list and read the dependencies03:13
mr_jrtHmm. Seems I can't get either.03:13
DocScrutinizerand apt-worker redoes all that again and again03:14
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mr_jrt...nor indeed the garage.03:14
merlin1991tmo works for me03:14
DocScrutinizertmo is fast like lightning here03:14
merlin1991garage is up too03:14
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DocScrutinizerload balancing at akamai03:15
DocScrutinizeror does this not even apply to tmo?03:15
DocScrutinizerhalley:~ # host talk.maemo.org03:16 is an alias for has address
mr_jrtYeah...for some reason I can't resolve the DNS03:16
DocScrutinizeryeah THEN....03:17
DocScrutinizer;-P03:17's just the maemo domains.03:21
merlin1991it's scheme03:21
merlin1991nokia is disabling the dns entires region by region! ;)03:22
mr_jrtIt's definately asking nokia's nameservers :S - Anyone care to flush their cache and try for me?03:27
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jonwilbah, if I start nokia-maps from a command line, it wont display any UI. Which means I cant strace the damn thing'03:36
SpeedEvilstrace -p03:38
jonwilexcept that I need to strace it right when it first loads03:38
jonwilbefore it even opens any files03:38
jonwilso I can find out every map-related file it opens03:38
mr_jrtHmmm :) It's anything on nokia's nameservers that has stopped working. At least it's not just maemo ;) How weird.03:38
SpeedEviljonwil: Aren't all the maps in the cache dir?03:39
jonwilI know where the map files are03:39
SpeedEvilyou're not trying to RE the map ormat?03:39
jonwilwell trying to find where and how the railway stations get drawn on the map03:39
jonwilI want to modify the Nokia Maps HTML and use the Google GTFS data my transit operator makes available to print bus stops and related info on the map03:40
mr_jrtChanging my mtu to something else and back again seems to have fixed it....:S03:40
jonwilsince no maemo mapping program can use such information03:40
SpeedEvilNokia maps html?03:40
jonwilNokia maps uses a browser widget to render03:41
jonwiland a large index.html file03:41
jonwilsomeone already extended said html file as a project called nokia-maps-extras03:41
jonwilyou follow?03:46
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chrissbxHello. I'm looking for an alarm clock that can play mp3s, or fm radio.04:10
chrissbxI've been searching around for an hour now; flip clock just doesn't work (doesn't even appear anymore); the builtin clock of the n800 doesn't seem to have any alarm at all;04:11
chrissbxand all the fm radio and internet radio alarm clock project ideas seem to never have gotten anywhere;04:11
chrissbxand the suggestion to use "alarmed" doesn't help me as the program manager doesn't find it.04:12
chrissbxAny ideas?04:12
DocScrutinizererr, the alarm on diablo wasn't that bad, had even a method to select arbitrary mp3 files to play for alarm sound. Just it stopped alarm too early04:13
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chrissbxI'm running the 2008 OS, I think; what's diablo?04:13
DocScrutinizerchrissbx: anyeay you should make clear you're talking about diablo, not fremantle. Not very usual here nowadays04:14
DocScrutinizerOS2008 == diablo04:14
chrissbxk, what's the newest that can be run on the n800?04:14
DocScrutinizererr diablo04:14
chrissbxor, best04:14
chrissbxwell, then no alarm clock I guess.04:14
DocScrutinizerwith CSSU updtaes maybe04:14
DocScrutinizerthere is alarms in clock04:15
chrissbxah in the menu (hm I'm stupid)04:15
chrissbx(I haven't used the device for years)04:15
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chrissbxNow if there only were a way to use the fm radio.04:25
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chrissbxAs an alarm.04:25
chrissbxI'd even accept crontab for myself, but this is for a buddy who doesn't know any commandline stuff.04:26
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chrissbxHm somehow the diablo clock doesn't even work. I've set alarms twice now, 2' in the future, then 10' in the future, and neither has done anything.04:31
chrissbxWell I guess I'll just give up, he was interested in fm radio alarm anyway.04:32
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DocScrutinizerI think there's not even a generic fm-radio alarm on N90004:44
DocScrutinizera *good* alarm clock still was a nice project04:45
DocScrutinizerfor N8x0 it is an ideal project04:46
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DocScrutinizerwell scratch the "fm-" for N810 ;-)04:46
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luke-jra *working* alarm clock would be nice :/04:52
luke-jrN900 Maemo only works when it isn't important -.-04:53
SpeedEvilI find my n900 alarm quite reliable.04:54
luke-jrI find it reliable for work meetings that I can afford to forget04:55
luke-jrI find it never works overnight when I need to wake up.04:55
luke-jrsleep-state related? shrug04:55
DocScrutinizerrelated to alarm time limited to 60s or sth04:56
Macerlmao. wow. battery-eye has my battery going like -10%04:56
Macernice too04:56
merlin1991I dunno when I set an allarm on the n900 I'm up within the first 2 to 3 notes04:57
DocScrutinizerbattery-eye seems thoroughly fsckd up04:57
Maceri don't think so because advanced power is also giving me awkward results on this battery04:58
Macerthe same results battery-eye is using04:58
Macerwhere the applet turns red... the red led turns on... but the n900 stays on for over an hour longer during high use04:58
Macerit could be  because the first couple of days i was swapping out 2 different batteries04:58
DocScrutinizeroh well, check lshal|grep batt04:59
luke-jrmerlin1991: well, the problem is mine doesn't *go off* until I wake it up some other way04:59
SpeedEvilMine even wakes up from off.05:00
* merlin1991 is feeling brave05:00
merlin1991doing the ota upgrade05:00
DocScrutinizerthat'd be damn sad if it wouldn't05:00
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: that sounds extemely convenient and just what I'd expect from an alarm clock05:02
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: not so convenient when it could mean your baby starves to death05:02
SpeedEvilBabies tend to have inbuilt alarms.05:02
DocScrutinizererrr how would that happen?05:02
* luke-jr ended up getting an old fashoned alarm05:02
luke-jrSpeedEvil: this one didn't.05:03
SpeedEvilAh. :/05:03
MacerDocScrutinizer: all the information there matches the advanced power applet as well as batter eye and the widget05:03
DocScrutinizeraaah go *off*05:03
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: I set alarm to wake me up to feed her in 3 hours. It doesn't go off. She sleeps through the night way too young.05:03
Macermaybe it just needs more "training"05:03
DocScrutinizersorry my english is poor05:03
Maceralso.. where do i lower the power of the wifi?05:03
Macerisn't there an option to change its power?05:03
luke-jrshe's a little piggy now (a year later) tho :p05:04
SpeedEvilLowering power will almost never change it.05:04
DocScrutinizerMacer: wifi network settings advanced05:04
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luke-jrbut next baby, I ain't trusting the N900…05:04
SpeedEvilPower consumption05:04
Macerok thanks05:04
DocScrutinizerat the end of config a particular net05:04
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MacerDocScrutinizer: is there  way to do this for the wifi hotspot?05:05
Macersince range isn't really an issue?05:05
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DocScrutinizerMacer: no idea, but it seems this settings is global for all networks and thus maybe for hotspot as well05:06
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Macerah ok. so it isn't just for the network in question?05:06
Macerwhy not a different screen for it then since it is global05:06
DocScrutinizeryeah it's terribly misplaced05:06
Macermaybe a settings applet for it05:06
Macera "Power" settings applet would be nice with all the tweaks for savingn power rolled into one applet05:07
SpeedEvilIn nearly all cases, changing hte power will make no perceptible differencee to battery life.05:07
Macerah i see05:07
SpeedEvilAs the amount of time you spend transmitting is very small.05:07
DocScrutinizerfor hotspot it will05:07
SpeedEvilAnd the power usage when listening in hotspot mode will usually swamp it.05:07
SpeedEvilAlso the 3G will utterly swamp it.05:07
SpeedEvilIt may be measurable, but it's not going to be noticable.05:08
Macerwell... any bit will do05:08
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Macer100mW when you have a good network at 10mW just makes a little more sense too05:08
Macerto just drop it regardless05:08
Macerwhy not make it auto? :)05:08
* luke-jr just charges whenever he's in the car.05:09
Macerif it detects too many tx pkt failures to bump it up to 100mW on its own05:09
DocScrutinizeranyway hotspot without charger attached seems no real usecase after all05:09
MacerDocScrutinizer: true but i am talking about general roaming usage of the wifi05:10
Macerat home 10mW may be fine because of proximity to the router05:10
Maceran airport... not so much05:10
DocScrutinizerMacer: hard to detect tx errors05:10
Macerah ok. well.. figured it sounded like a good idea ;)05:10
Macerhaviung a power section in settings dedicated to power tweaks would still be a nice thing to have too05:10
Macermaybe even with high and low power profiles that turn things on and off by simply swapping profiles05:11
DocScrutinizera general profile management that's not only swapping ringtones would be very nice05:11
DocScrutinizera profile manager that at very least knows about *all* sliders and buttons in settings and you can pick which ones get changed on activating this particular new profile05:13
DocScrutinizerlike brightness, time to tklock, whatnot else05:13
DocScrutinizerringtone melody05:13
Maceryeah... that would be nice.. but power profiles come in handy as well ;)05:15
DocScrutinizeralso "switch to WLAN if available [x]"05:15
Macerlol... yeah.. that's kind of a pain sometimes tbh... maybe making a network hotlist of which to auto switch to ?05:15
DocScrutinizerwhat's in a power profile that such a general profile manager can't handle?05:15
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Macerit isn't about handling.. it's about what it shouldn't handle when only related to power05:15
Macerif you want to swap to low power mode where the screen dims.. wifi powers down a bit... etc... but your ringtone stays the same :)05:16
DocScrutinizer>>...and you can pick which ones get changed...<<05:16
Macerit would take a lot more sliders and adjustments in a general profile05:16
Maceras opposed to a strictly power profile changing design05:16
SpeedEvilAnd more calls to support from confused users.05:16
MacerSpeedEvil: that as well05:16
Macerlumping it all together would kind of confuse people05:17
Macerpeople are easily adjusted to "this makes my battery live longer" as opposed to "this makes my battery use more power while playig a rock ringtone and disabling gtalk while enabling gvoice and turning on 2 email accounts and disabling the work one..."05:17
Macersimplicity is why iphone wins heh05:18
DocScrutinizerMacer: you're talking gibberish05:18
Macerthey wouldn't lump everything together to that... because not only would people get frustrated... but they would also have less shiny buttons to play with :)05:18
DocScrutinizerMacer: your horizon is obviously limited on that topic05:18
Macerno i am not... i meana don't get me wrong a  general profile is nice but lumping too much into a single change05:18
DocScrutinizer>>...and you can pick which ones get changed...<<05:19
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Maceryeah but you would want to change 50 things in a general profile as opposed to just a few basic power changes to lower and raise power consumption  in the power vs performance game?05:19
Macerthat is something you do while you have a ton of time to tweak every setting related to a general profile .. not when you just want to set up something quick that will dim the screen and turn off your gps05:20
Maceror turn it back on and raise the brightness because you are going to drive05:21
DocScrutinizerprocedure: open settings, click "define new general profile", do whatever changes you want to do to settings subgroups, on closing settings main menu the profile manager pops up, shows all the things you edited so you can remove edits you did accidently, then you name the new profile and it will contain only the *changes* you made while it leaves other settings untouched when you activate that profile eventually05:21
merlin1991so kinda like macrorecording?05:23
MacerDocScrutinizer: i get that but you are lumping too much into one thing :)05:24
Macerwhich is a great addition for people willing to do that05:24
Macerbut i still think a power only version would also be useful05:24
Maceryou can also just let the gerneral profule USE the power profile ;)05:25
Macerthat woudl save time05:25
DocScrutinizerI'd even add a few gimmicks to that final profile review menu where you can remove unwanted edits from the profile: select particular changes to be relative rather than the defualt absolute, so e.g changing volume change (60%->70%) to relative will make that profile not set volume to 70% unconditionally biut rather *increase* any current vilume by 10%05:25
Macerso really all you are doing is taking the entire settings app... and turning it all into one giant lumped page with all the sliders and changes? ;)05:26
Macerwhy not just save what all those settings are ?05:26
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DocScrutinizerMacer: wtf is wrong with a profile that records and sets only your power related settings if you did only power reölated settings. How is that "too much" nad how are you thinking it could get "less"?05:26
Macermeaning... do it all from settings and just have a button that says "save profile as...."05:27
Maceras an applet05:27
DocScrutinizerMacer: you completely missed what I tried to explain05:27
Macerno i didn't05:27
Maceri just think your method is non-intuitive05:27
Macerno offense05:27
DocScrutinizerMacer: YES you DID, and I don't give a shit about what you think about what you think is my idea of that applet as IT ISN'T what I told you05:28
DocScrutinizera profile manager that at very least knows about *all* sliders and buttons in settings and you can pick which ones get changed on activating this particular new profile05:29
Macer:) it's youru applet.. i was just throwing ideas out there and being the devil's advocate.. no need to get worked up over it05:29
DocScrutinizer[2011-11-11 04:21:15] <DocScrutinizer> procedure: open settings, click "define new general profile", do whatever changes you want to do to settings subgroups, on closing settings main menu the profile manager pops up, shows all the things you edited so you can remove edits you did accidently, then you name the new profile and it will contain only the *changes* you made while it leaves other settings untouched when you activate that profile05:29
DocScrutinizermy applet is just a button "start new profile" and a requester "name: "05:30
DocScrutinizerthere's definitely *nothing* crammed in that possibly could get trown out in that05:30
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Macerfair enough but a power profile selector should still be in settings.. what if you want to maintain the exact same profile but simply swap power profiles on the fly?05:31
* DocScrutinizer headdesks05:31
Macerdo you go through all the subsettings on what you think will save power and make a new general profile?05:31
Maceror do you just open a power subsetion in settings and adjust it all there?05:32
Macerwhich do you think would be easier?05:32
DocScrutinizerMacer: you're free to publish your greatest profiles for restoring them via this general profile manager05:32
MacerDocScrutinizer: you remind me of the mind of an engineer ;)05:33
DocScrutinizerthen user will just open "set general profile", pick "macer's acme power profile #2" from list and done05:33
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DocScrutinizerI don't see how your specialized powe rprofile manager could do it any better than that05:35
MacerDocScrutinizer: i completely understand what you are saying.. but what steps would i need to do in order to adjust the power settings.. i would be stuck in the settings app for about 10 mins... going through all the things within the subsections and finding what i believe will save power instead of opening up a simple power subsection with them all in one place for me to adjust and save a profile.... with your methid using both the power profile alongside the gern05:35
Macerand later have the ability to hotswap power profiles on the fly if that is all you want to adjust.. instead of having 20 different general profiles just to change the power05:36
* DocScrutinizer headdesks some more05:36
Macer:) lmao... yes.. you are definately an engineer. instead of thinking like an engineer.. think like an architect ;)05:37
Macerok.. i will quit bugging you with this heh05:37
Macerengineers are funny in a sense that if you assign them to a water valve.. they will want to completely reconstruct the entire water piping instead of simply making a better valve... architects are more like artists trying to determine what would best suit the poeple who will use it05:38
DocScrutinizer"edit profile", pick name, do whatever edits you think the profile needs *in standards settimgs et al dialog*, click "save edited profile"05:38
DocScrutinizerMacer: you start to troll05:39
Maceri'm not! :-P05:39
Maceryou are just bent on your own way. i am just offering the alternative05:39
ahollerwanting to think like an architect doesn't make you one05:39
Macerbased on the way i would expect to use something in that manner05:39
Maceras well as .. "what if my 5 year old son used the n900...." :) which is what most people are who use devices05:40
DocScrutinizerMacer: you are not offering any alternative, you don't see that all your alternatives are imlemented to the dot in a generla approach I described05:40
Macerthey are but in a different fashion than what would be expected.. you are reminding me of what symbian would do with its profiles and that was a bad way to do it05:41
DocScrutinizerI don't give a flying F of what you're reminded, I insist in you failing to understand what I say05:42
Macervery well05:42
DocScrutinizerand you actually haven't explained what *exactly* you are expecting yet05:42
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Maceri think i did multiple times very clearly.. but it's ok. it isn't that serious :) i am going to eat and watch margin call again05:43
DocScrutinizerall you came up with is "a new dialog that has a random selection of things"05:43
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Macerto save power on the N900 in maemo.. you open settings.. you open display.. change the brightness... you open bluetooth.. on off... wifi.. on off.... power level... etc... all in differnt areas.. whil i understand what you are looking at whereas the general profile controls EVERYTHING in settings... which is fine... i believe there should be one simply for power settings alone with these options which are ONLY RELATED TO POWER placed within the settings subsection05:45
DocScrutinizerNO THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID05:46
Maceromg.... honestly. never mind.05:46
Macerback to my margin call and food05:46
ahollernothing is only related to power.05:47
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DocScrutinizerlisten dude. You talk about a special view that collects settings available elsewhere in one place. That's all fine (though I don't exactly see who's going to decide which of the plethora of settings should go in there), anyway with general profile manager you got a tool to create that view in no time: somebody else (=the nice Mr Macer) published a profile pack for General Profile Manager which contains 1 or 2 or 20 so called PowerProfiles.06:01
DocScrutinizerYou can open such a profile for editing in two different ways: a) "edit in profile" which will open a dialog that's exactly your view of selected things, e.g one of MrMacers PowerProfiles has just brightness and WLAN-power so opening that profile via "edit in profile" will just show those two settings to chenge them to your liking. After you're don tweaking either brightness or/and WLAN-power you have to option to apply and/or store the06:01
DocScrutinizerchanged profile, under same or new name. Method B) is "change profile settings" and will just load the profile and open the standard system settings dialog, you do whatever tweaks you want in settings, to brightness, WLAN-Power, or any other of the available settings (in which case the new changed setting gets added to the edited profile), and on closing the settings system dialog you again get the option to save the profile under same or06:01
DocScrutinizernew name (applying it doesn't make sense here as you already applied all changes when you messed with settings dialog).06:01
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DocScrutinizersomebody else will want to create a "night" profile that sets brightness, alarm-clock-ringtone and loudness, and ONLY that. He clicks "create new profile", settings dialog opens, he sets brightness and the other two to the values he needs for sleeping and wake up alarm, then stores this profile under name "myNight". Any later time he may want to change brightness, he does exactly what I explained above (either 'edit in profile "MyNight"' or06:11
DocScrutinizer'change profile settings "MyNight"') and he *might* want to save that new profile under name "MyDarkNight" - or he decides it's just a convenient way to change brightness via "edit in profile" and then go to "apply profile" instead of "apply and safe" and he got the personalized view that has only "brightness" "ringtone" "volume" and on selecting "apply" he discards the edits and MyNight stays unaltered which is exactly what you were asking06:11
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DocScrutinizerand if you feel like you really need that special PowerProfile settings sub-applet (actually it's a plugin I'd say) I promise to you if I specify General Power Manager then it comes with an API that makes implementing that settings submenu plugin a matter of invoking $>gpm --edit-in-profile -profile-name "MrMacer's ACME Powerprofile"06:17
DocScrutinizers/General Power/General Profile/06:18
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: and if you feel like you really need that special PowerProfile settings sub-applet (actually it's a plugin I'd say) I promise to you if I specify General Profile Manager then it comes with an API that makes implementing that settings submenu plugin a matt...06:18
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DocScrutinizerto even more please your call for simplicity, I'll make that $>gpm --edit-in-profile --no-edit=incremental,delete-control --profile-name="MrMacer's ACME Powerprofile"06:23
DocScrutinizerso your users won't get puzzled by a "incremental [x]" and a "remove this control from profile" widget in your customized view that only shows `all power related settings in one place'06:25
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DocScrutinizerI admit my concept has one drawback compared to a generic powermanager pliugin for settings as you suggested: edits in the "edit in profile" don't take instant effect, rather the whole bunch gets applied when you hit either "apply" or "apply&save" button. I don't think this is am unbearable shortcoming, and we could even work around it for some selected settings like e.g brightness and volume, by implementing a direct control link to the06:33
DocScrutinizeractual setting in system for those06:33
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DocScrutinizeroops I wasn't completely precise above: on both "create new profile" and "change profile settings" on closing the system's settings dialog GPM will open up the "edit in profile" view for the actual setting, so you `could delete controls you accidently changed though you don't want them in this profile", as well as change some of the controls (I was about to write "of the changed controls" but I think meanwhile it's clear in a profile there07:04
DocScrutinizerare always only changed controled stored) to "relative" (I named it "incremental" but I think "relative" is the better term).07:04
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Macerdoes anybody here use theonering?08:13
Maceri can't seem to get gvoice to call directly08:14
Macerdoing the awkward forwarding thing seems to work but that kind of sucks... does it simply not call directly through gvoice?08:14
Macerjudging by the error received i am going to assume yes. :) ah well08:15
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LaoLang_coolStill bed time?11:51
LaoLang_coolCan I lock the desktop? So when click the desktop, the setting icon won't be shown11:52
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DocScrutinizeron CSSU yes11:53
DocScrutinizerresp on MHD11:54
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: wow, CSSU is so featureful11:54
DocScrutinizeroops, maybe this was just for the applauncher menu though11:54
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: I can't understand 'resp on MHD' ...11:54
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DocScrutinizerscratch it, doesn't matter11:54
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DocScrutinizerLaoLang_cool: seems CSSU does not support no-edit on desktop, it would be a very nice improvement though. You should open a ticket for this suggestion12:03
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: oh, yup, but I'm using offical release 38 pr12:03
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DocScrutinizeranybody could tell me how to configure KNetworkManager on PC to use a 3G USB modem (here: N900)?12:36
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psycho_oreosI've personally never tried KNetworkManager but I have it working with just NetworkManager alone here. I guess because its xubuntu its more or less `plug-n-play' :) why is your's showing up errors?12:40
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DocScrutinizeryes, that's the question12:43
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psycho_oreosso your intentions was to try and get KNetworkManager to work and not worry about NetworkManager? :)12:44
groszekhi. is twitter supported officially in conversation app? i only have ovi/skype/jabber/sip/facebook there (although I do have twitter support for sharing pics)12:45
DocScrutinizermy intention was to access internet over N900 USB modem, and it doesn't connect. Possibly because of "number: *99#" not correctly set by me, or whatever12:46
groszeki've seen a plugin from 2009, but apparently it doesn't work anymore, and other news suggest it was included in some update to the app itself..12:46
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psycho_oreos*99# I presume is pretty much the form of tethering number being used. I have 3 different mobile broadband accounts (2 currently active but with the same provider). The bottom line is I do not think *99$# is the issue12:48
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer51: the 99 is a magic number - it's the same constnatly.13:02
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SpeedEvilThe issues I've seen configuring 3G are APN, and password, and compression negotiation.13:02
SpeedEvilLook at syslog for ppp errors.13:02
SpeedEvilThat said - I don't actually use configurators, I use ppp 'raw'13:02
SpeedEvilLike I did back in 1996.13:03
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* SpeedEvil should probably mmove on.13:03
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* ShadowJK also uses ppp "raw"13:29
ShadowJK"while true; do pppd call gprs ; done"13:29
groszekuhm anyone has twitter integrated with his conversations? if yes, how? :<13:31
ZogGslonopotamus, ping13:33
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ZogGruskie, ping13:38
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DocScrutinizerthat's so MEH13:44
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slonopotamusZogG: pong13:52
ZogGslonopotamus sup. serched for you on gentoo-ru13:52
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slonopotamusjonwil: looks like you don't want to do anything :-/13:56
jonwilno, there its lots on my todo list13:57
jonwilJust a whole bunch of stuff I have already ruled out as "too hard"13:57
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jonwilso anyone got anything I should work on"?14:14
jonwilMight do the virtual keyboard stuff given the demand for it14:15
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* SpeedEvil mehs that he can't buy jonwil nice disssasemblers.14:20
mece_jonwil, with cssu having a lot of the features in portrait mode these days, the portrait vkb would be pretty cool.14:21
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mintuxhow can I open conversion backup on my system . it seems store in .db files14:22
jonwilok, I have decided to clone gen_vkb and make it work properly for Fremantle (it doesn't look that hard) as well as fixing up the decode_vkb script to handle everything in Fremantle14:22
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SpeedEvilWould that include doing BT properly?14:22
SpeedEvilOr is that a seperate stack14:22
jonwilbluetooth is not part of the virtual keyboard14:23
jonwiland I already said no to anything bluetooth14:23
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jonwilespecially since I own precisely ZERO bluetooth devices14:23
jonwilonce i finish gen_fkb and decode_fkb, I will publish it along with my header file for libimlayout14:24
jonwilas a package14:24
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jonwilactually, I will probably write my own decode_vkb because the current decode_vkb is written in (UGH) Perl.14:25
jonwila language I know NOTHING about14:26
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woldrichI know Perl. I can hack it faster than you ... can14:29
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LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: sorry to disturb you again, could you try to compile mupdf please? It has some useful cli features.
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infobotrumour has it, jrtools is
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infobotboobies are always fun to play with, or very big16:15
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merlin1991X-Fade: ping16:33
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: ping16:34
merlin1991LaoLang_cool: isn't the internal pdf reader enough?16:35
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LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: mupdf can export pdf to txt file, and it has nice vi style keybinding16:35
merlin1991I'll see what I can do16:36
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: thank you!16:36
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medicalweiAnyone using irreco or sth related to lirc?17:04
medicalweii got my irreco not working with the same code…17:04
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valeriusppl, how to repair apt? cannot neither reinstall samba again, neither deinstall it. -- Something with post-install scripts in samba .deb package17:07
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merlin1991valerius: pastebin the errors?17:08
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valeriusI cannot install nothing using apt-get, but dpkg and package manager works17:10
valeriusok, a minute...17:10
medicalweiapt-get -f install or remove apt lock?17:11
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valeriusmedicalwei -f won't help17:19
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valeriusmedicalwei which lock? I don't see any in /var/lock17:21
valeriusbtw, how to copy text from xterm? copy by stylus doesn't work, but scrolling instead17:22
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medicalweivalerius: did you installed ssh?17:24
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valeriusdeleted /var/lib/apt/lists/lock but no effect17:25
valeriusmedicalwei yes, it is installed17:25
valeriusbut no wifi now17:25
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valeriusAn error: package samba needs to be reinstalled but cannot find package for it17:27
medicalweidpkg -P samba # to purge samba?17:27
valeriuswhen trying apt-get install/remove something17:27
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valeriusstrange, samba is broken but I installed it before somehow and it even worked for me...17:28
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valeriusmedicalwei "Package is in a very bad inconsistent state, you need to reinstall it before attempting to remove it"17:30
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valeriusthis is when I tried to purge it17:30
medicalweivalerius: grab it manually?17:30
valeriusunpack manually by midnight commander?17:31
medicalweiNo. after downloading it, dpkg -i <the package>17:31
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valeriusmedicalwei ok, thanks...17:33
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* medicalwei wonders anyone using lirc?17:35
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medicalweiok. i got the problem why my tv won't accept the ir signal.17:48
medicalweithe signal needs to be repeated…orz17:48
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valeriusmedicalwei cannot install -- some post-removal script returned bad status -- sh script aborted abnormally17:50
medicalweivalerius: O_O;17:50
valeriusdon't know why post-removal but not post install17:51
* medicalwei either17:51
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valeriusthe package samba_3.4.3_maemo2_armel.deb is broken17:52
valeriusI think, it tries to remove something before installing itself17:52
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mgedminpost-rm script errors are very not fun17:58
mgedminwhich one was it?17:58
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valerius/bin/sh illegal option -18:02
valeriusdpkg: error while cleaning up18:03
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mgedminI meant which script18:04
valeriussubprocess post-removal script returned error exit status 218:04
mgedminI could try to help you fix it, if you pastebin the whole script somewhere18:04
valeriuswhere to take the script? can I somehow extract it using dpkg?18:05
mgedmindpkg output should have told you it was running the post-remove script for package X18:06
mgedminyou can find the script in /var/lib/dpkg/info/X.postrm18:07
valeriusand silly question: how can I pastebin from xterm? copying with stylus doesn't work18:07
mgedminthe error itself makes it seem as if the script is expecting bash to be /bin/sh, or something like that -- and gets a busybox shell instead18:07
mgedmincan you ssh in?18:07
RST38hehlo all18:08
mgedminor just tell me the name of the package and its version18:08
valeriusno, I have no wifi now18:08
valeriusbut I can from the device itself -- I have midnight commander installed18:09
ruskie <-- heh18:09
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valeriusmgedmin I found it, now need to pastebin18:14
gn00bhaving major problems with my n900. when i plug into my pc i see the device but no folders. i've copied a few files to the device, unplugged it and went into the file manager, but don't have any folders or the newly copied files. wtf???18:16
valeriusbut could someone help with hotkeys? -- how can I do "Ctrl-Ins/Shift-Ins" on N900?18:16
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valeriusgn00b maybe, the FS is not mounted?18:17
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madkickerswhere is partition of / ? there is only 3 for MyDocs,one for /home and another one is swap.where is root?18:19
NIN101on NAND18:19
SpeedEvilyou can't see / when you plug the device in - this is the 'MyDocs' device18:19
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valeriusmaybe, he means the microSD card?18:20
gn00bno microsd18:20
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valeriusgn00b so, probably, your MyDocs are busy and not mounted on PC18:21
madkickersso is it possible to mount root when im using usb mass storage mode in backup menu? kuz there is no such thing to mount?18:21
NIN101afaik, no.18:22
NIN101as it isn't a block device etc.18:22
gn00bok. my sister just told me what she did. she formated with linux, couldn't see any files on the device then formatted with windows and still couldn't see anything.18:22
gn00bdoing fsck now18:23
SpeedEvilyou will never see anything other than the mydocs partition when you plug it in to USB.18:23
valeriusgn00b in fat32 or ext2 :)18:23
madkickerswhat is NAND :-D18:23
SpeedEvil'backup menu' - I don't know what that is.18:23
gn00bi got it. thanks. maybe i should've asked her what she did first18:23
madkickersspeedevil: it helps to make a backup of whole storage.and has an option to access the storage of the cellphone18:24
valeriusppl, sorry for dumb question, but how to copy/paste from the keyboard? I ask because no Ins key on the keyboard18:25
madkickersalso there is a kind of kernel in meego's website which gives u some advanced options to develop ur n90018:26
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SpeedEvilctrl-c / ctrl-v may work18:26
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valeriusspeedevil thx, will try..18:26
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valeriusspeedevil but how to copy paste in xtetrm? trying to open file in mc but ctrl-c closes the file18:28
SpeedEvilthat won't work then18:28
madkickersk. another question. is it possible to make image gallery to show images in different categories?18:29
SpeedEvilyou need to pop up the titlebar, and then click copy/paste18:29
valeriusstylus won't copy too but scrolls18:29
valeriusah, it seems I found it! -- copy option in virtual keyboard :)18:30
SpeedEvilClick the arrow to bring up the stylus18:30
SpeedEvilthen copy appears in the menu18:30
valeriusspeedevil on titlebar there is only 'paste' option, no 'copy'18:30
SpeedEvilyou need to select something18:31
SpeedEvilthe arrow at the bottom left18:31
SpeedEvilthen select, then copy appears18:31
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valeriusWhere is an arrow? in xterm window? -- I see none..18:33
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valeriusspeedevil found arrow ;) Strange, when mc is started, no arrow but in plain xterm or vi, it is present :)18:36
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valeriusmgedmin this is my postremove script: don't see anything criminal, only ";;" in one 'case' variant and none in other. Ldconfig works too on my n90018:43
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mgedminthe first line doesn't start with #, why?18:47
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mgedminand which package is this?18:48
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valeriusmgedmin It starts from #! /bin/sh18:50
valeriusI did not copied the first character, sorry18:51
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valeriusmgedmin it is samba_3.4.3_maemo2_armel.deb18:52
mgedminso a copy/paste error then18:52
valeriusthe newest one18:52
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mgedminyou said this happened during install time?18:52
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mgedminduring install time dpkg runs the postrm script of the PREVIOUS version18:52
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mgedminthen I get fuzzy -- IIRC it maybe runs the new postrm if the previous one fails?18:53
mgedminit's documented somewhere in the Debian Policy Manual18:53
mgedminlet me look it up18:53
valeriusSo, I must to correct the previous one?18:54
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mgedmin says new-postrm is run with 'upgrade-failed' if old-postrm fails during upgrade18:55
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mgedminif new-postrm doesn't fail, upgrade continues18:56
valeriusbut it seems, the old one returns sucessfully -- I see no error when running ./apt.postrm remove18:57
mgedminwhat? DON'T DO THAT!18:58
mgedminwhy apt? you're trying to install *samba*, not *apt*18:58
mgedminif you fsck up apt, you'll end up with a broken system and most likely need to reflash18:59
valeriusI thought, it is samba post-removal script19:00
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mgedminno, samba postrm script is named, unsurprisingly, sampa.postrm19:00
mgedminbut I thought we were talking about a prerm?19:00
mgedminI'm sorry, I mixed up the terms above19:00
mgedminluckily, apt.postrm remove doesn't do anything bad19:01
valeriusyes, I checked -- my apt is ok :)19:01
mgedminso, /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba.postrm19:02
valeriusSo, this is not a samba post-removal script. -- Will try searching again19:02
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* mgedmin downloads samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb from maemo.org19:05
mgedmincan't find anything suspicious in the postrm script...19:05
mgedminah! DOS line endings!19:05
mgedminthe maintainer fucked up19:05
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mgedminpastebin is useless for noticing something like that19:06
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valeriusmgedmin Found samba postrm script. It appears that the script has DOS EOLN markers (Ctrl-M throughout the file)19:08
mgedmindoes mcedit show them as ^Ms, I wonder?19:10
mgedminiirc no19:10
mgedminoh, it does! nice!19:10
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mgedminso you can fix them19:11
hiemanshuuse dos2unix or whatever it is to make the changes19:11
* valerius deleted carriage reurns from the script19:12
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hiemanshudos2unix FTW! :D19:12
valeriusmanually, in mc text editor ;).19:12
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mgedminI don't think maemo5 comes with dos2unix :)19:15
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mgedminis this bug known to the people who uploaded samba to maemo extras, I wonder?19:16
mgedminif it only shows up when you try to remove or upgrade samba, people might not notice19:16
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valeriusmgedmin ./samba.postrm remove works but dpkg -P samba still won't work ;(19:19
mgedminwhat's the error?19:19
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Creteilhi all19:19
valeriusmgedmin when I trying to install/ remove anything, not only smba19:20
mgedminvalerius, run dpkg --configure -a19:20
Creteildoes someone here know what is the problem here : ???19:20
mgedminand then maybe apt-get install -f19:21
mgedminCreteil, O.o?  I think only X-Fade can figure that out19:22
valeriusThe same error "the package is in very bad inconsistent state..."19:22
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mgedminoh, right, "you need to reinstall before attempting to continue"19:23
mgedmincan you apt-get install --reinstall samba?19:23
mgedminor does that also fail?19:23
Creteiloh I see you are going to try to install samba probably on the device ...19:24
mgedminI would attempt this: fix DOS line endings of all files named samba.* in /var/lib/dpkg/info, then apt-get install --reinstall samba, then fix all files _again_ (because reinstall will restore the broken ones), then apt-get remove --purge samba19:24
Creteilthis package just don't install properly19:24
totalizatorDocScrutinizer: thanks for the tip; good to know that i don't need to disassemble it but do I really need to remove the 2 torx screws to remove the keyboard frame? the Nokia service manual says that you should not reuse the torx screws and I don't have spare ones19:24
mgedminof course --reinstall will probably fail with the same error....19:24
Creteilmgedmin, this is not the only problem of the package ...19:24
Creteilmgedmin, already do that but that doesn't fix the bad installation at all ...19:25
mgedmindpkg has a database where it has recorded that the package is Badly Broken(TM), because of the failed postrm script19:25
mgedminto unwedge the database you need to install a fixed version of samba19:26
Creteilmgedmin, yes I know that, but even after fixing cr/lf there another troubles in the postrm script itselft19:26
mgedminhm, I don't have a fremantle target in my scratchbox19:26
infobotCreteil meant: mgedmin, yes I know that, but even after fixing cr/lf there another troubles in the postrm script itself19:27
mgedminthere's always the big hammer solution: backup, reflash, don't try to install samba19:27
mgedminCreteil, like what?19:27
Creteilmgedmin, I have successfully removed the package after tweaking ...19:27
mgedmintell valerius about your tweaks then!19:28
Creteilmgedmin, don't remember it substitution with sed IIRC ...19:28
mgedminI don't see anything obviously wrong in the script19:28
mgedminsed is not used19:28
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Creteilor awk19:28
mgedminmaybe you're talking about postinst, not postrm?19:28
Creteilor something else19:28
Creteiloh yes19:29
mgedminoh yes, sed -e "s/^[[:space:]]...."19:29
Creteilso, even after fixing cr/lf, then the postinst doesn't end properly with an error leaving the package in a bad step19:29
Creteilmgedmin, yes this is it !!!19:30
mgedminbut you can at least remove it, I think19:30
mgedminwhile if postrm fails...19:30
Creteilmgedmin, what does exactly apt-get remove report ?19:30
mgedmintalk to valerius19:30
mgedminI haven't ever tried to install samba on my n90019:30
Creteilvalerius, what does exactly apt-get remove report ?19:30
mgedminif I understand it correctly,  "Package is in a very bad inconsistent state, you need to reinstall it before attempting to remove it"19:31
valeriusmgedmin "The package needs to be reinstalled but can' ffind an archive for it". Though, I have samba package in /var/cache/apt/archive19:31
Creteilanyhow, someone to explain what is the problem with builder reporting an error like :
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mgedminvalerius, dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archive/samba....deb?19:32
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mgedminthis'll fail in postinst19:32
mgedminbut after that you ought to be able to (1) manually fix postrm again with mcedit, and then (2) apt-get remove samba19:33
mgedminas far as I remember, dpkg deals better with half-installed packages, and refuses to deal with half-removed ones19:33
valeriuscreteil "The package needs to be reinstalled but cannot find an archive for it"19:33
mgedminso dpkg -i will improve the situation a bit19:33
Creteilvalerius, please provide more verbose messages !!19:34
Creteilvalerius, use pastebin19:34
MohammadAGso I got an iPhone19:35
MohammadAGand I fucked up the software in less than 2 hours19:35
MohammadAGdo I win a trophy?19:35
CreteilMohammadAG, sure !!!19:36
MohammadAGnow it shows the Connect to iTunes logo when I press the power button19:36
valeriusCreteil more verbose? ok..19:36
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Creteilvalerius, what does 'ls /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba*' output ?19:40
valeriusNot too verbose, though19:41
Creteilvalerius, what does 'ls /var/lib/dpkg/info/samba*' output ?19:42
Creteilvalerius, ok let me install the package by myself on the device, then I fail back to the same situation as you, then I can provide you the right things to do to remove it ...19:43
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valeriusCreteil ok, thanks!19:47
Creteilvalerius, wait 1 I have installed the samba package19:47
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Creteilvalerius, here ?20:12
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valeriusNCreteil You rebuillt the package? So, it is broken not only with post/pre-install scripts?20:14
CreteilvaleriusN, no20:16
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valeriusNCreteil I am not sure if the scripts could be extracted, corrected and copied inside the package again?20:16
CreteilJust created a script to correctly deinstall samba ...20:16
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Creteilbut before20:16
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Creteilwhat does 'ls /var/cache/apt/archives/libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/update-inetd_4.31_all.deb' output (you can paste here in the channel)20:16
CreteilvaleriusN, ssh the device to be able to copy paste here quickly ...20:17
valeriusNCreteil when I got problems with samba, I removed all packages it depends, but could not remove samba itself. So, I have libwbclient0 and update-inetd and samba-common removed now20:19
valeriusNno, cannot ssh because I haven't wifi available now20:19
Creteilok so let me prepare a tarball with all you need to remove properly ...20:20
HyperSnypervaleriusN you could pastebin if you've got 3G20:20
CreteilvaleriusN, how did you removed properly samba-common ?20:20
valeriusNHyperSnyper yes, I'll try20:21
CreteilvaleriusN, on my side I have to tweak to remove samba-common & samba packages ...20:21
CreteilvaleriusN, how did you removed properly samba-common ?20:23
CreteilvaleriusN, on my side I have to tweak to remove samba-common & samba packages ...20:23
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valeriusNCreteil I have three packages from this list in /var/cache/apt/archives: samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb update-inetd_4.31_all.deb20:25
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valeriusNCreteil so, samba-common is installed20:26
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Creteilare you able to install 'libwbclient0' with apt-get install libwbclient020:26
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valeriusNCreteil ah, libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb is there too...20:27
Creteilwell, so copy paste the script I'm gona put on pastebin and run it !!!20:28
Creteilwait one I just check on my side it run properly ...20:28
valeriusNCreteil ok20:28
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Macermy fm transmitter is not working20:36
Maceris there a problem with advanced kernel and fmtx?20:36
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CreteilvaleriusN, on your device as 'root' :20:37
Creteilchmo +x Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo20:37
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rlyHow do I tell modest to check my email automatically or am I just impatient?20:42
rlyI know how I can tell it manually to check it.20:43
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rly(or is there another, better client?)20:43
Sicelothere isn't a setting somewhere in modest?20:43
CreteilvaleriusN, is it ok ?20:44
Sicelothere is rly. Settings.. at the bottomw20:44
rlyWhat is mecenfiadvsetupofflinesync?20:44
rlySicelo: is that in the modest application at account setup or under the settings icon?20:45
Sicelomodest, tap 'title bar' > Settings20:46
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valeriusNCreteil No, unfortunately, no. --  "E: The package samba needs to be reinstalled, but I can't find an archive for it"20:47
Siceloas for other app, i use mutt, there's claws mail too.. and others20:48
Creteilmy script reinstall the packages needed from /var/cache/apt/archive !!!20:48
CreteilvaleriusN, have you run my script ?20:49
valeriusNCreteil yes, they are there, in the apt cache20:49
CreteilvaleriusN, have you run my script ?20:49
CreteilvaleriusN, have you run my script ?20:49
CreteilvaleriusN, have you run my script ?20:49
CreteilvaleriusN, on your device as 'root' :20:50
Creteilchmod +x Uninstall-broken-samba-on-maemo20:50
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CreteilvaleriusN, I have made a script to ease the proper deinstallation of the samba packages and dependencies ...20:52
valeriusNCreteil yes, I run it. It installed libwbclient0, copied a trivial script over pre/post scripts and tried to remove all packages, and I have this error in the end20:52
valeriusNyes, as root20:52
valeriusNyes, I made it executable20:52
rlySicelo: but is claws integrated in any way? Modest is integrated into the system at least.20:52
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valeriusNyes, I run the script and it fails in the end20:52
rlyE.g. can you tell claws to only update when connected via method X, Y, or Z?20:53
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Creteilwhat does 'dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/update-inetd_4.31_all.deb 2>/dev/null'20:54
CreteilPlease use pastebin20:54
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Creteilremove the last part '2>/dev/null'20:54
Creteilwhat does 'dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/libwbclient0_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba_3.4.3-maemo2_armel.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/samba-common_3.4.3-maemo2_all.deb /var/cache/apt/archives/update-inetd_4.31_all.deb'20:54
CreteilPlease use pastebin20:55
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Siceloheh, rly, afaik nothing else is integrated. guess you're stuck with modes then. cssu testing might have an improved modest20:56
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CreteilvaleriusN, is there a way you explain how you fail down to this situation ?20:56
rlyDoes Android have just as bad software?20:57
rlyWell, that's a bit harsh.20:57
CreteilvaleriusN, on my side I have break the uninstall, but just can't have the error you have (E: The package samba needs to be reinstalled, but I can't find an archive for it) ...20:57
rlyMost of N900 is great.20:57
rlyBut lots of stuff could use improvement.20:57
mgedminSturgeon's law20:58
Siceloi can't comment on android. zero interest. i just heard android has many apps .. same apps though :P20:58
rlySicelo: well, it also has 'whatsapp', which apparently the whole world uses.20:59
Sicelonot me ;)20:59
Siceloi think Mohammad was working on it... i cold be mistaken20:59
rlyWhy is everyone so opposed to Android here?21:00
psycho_oreoswhy are you being offtopic?21:00
rlyThere is nothing offtopic about it.21:01
rlyIf you don't look to what the competition is doing you become obsolete.21:01
psycho_oreossince when did N900 have android in it by default apart from nitdroid21:01
psycho_oreosmaemo is obsolete21:01
rlypsycho_oreos: apparently lots of users disagree.21:02
Siceloi'm not opposed. just not interested21:02
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Creteilrly, maybe because I choose to buy a N900 running maemo not android and I do this choice comparing the 2 oses and finally choose maemo ...21:02
keriothe problem i have with android is that it has apps21:03
kerionot programs21:03
rlyCreteil: I wanted to be able to ssh into my phone, which I believed was impossible on an Android.21:03
Sicelonice one kerio ;)21:03
rlyIf you root your android you do get a shell, right?21:03
Creteilkerio, +121:03
psycho_oreosrly, people disagree on which point? maemo being obsolete? well yes if you still have the actual hardware you can still say there's community support. As for the android point I couldn't really care less about android21:04
keriorly: even an iphone does that21:04
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CreteilvaleriusN, valerius, no more message from you, does I need to forget your problem ?21:05
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rlyWhat's so much better about Maemo than Android?21:07
valeriusNCreteil just a moment... -- I am copy/pasting yet...21:07
keriorly: X1121:07
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luke-jrrly: Android tends to have locked bootloaders too21:08
psycho_oreosandroid runs on dalvik vm, therefore less direct access to raw hardware21:08
luke-jrI expect my next device to ship with Android, but have a known way to install my own kernel21:08
luke-jrso I can install/use Gentoo and KDE21:09
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rlyKDE on a mobile device?21:12
valeriusCreteil It complains about other packages too. I made apt-get install -f   but it also has something with samba-common and mplayers21:12
rlykerio: so, you run big complicated applications on some server and use X11 to see them on your phone?21:13
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keriorly: no, so the concept of "window" is not horrendously broken21:13
valeriusIt has something about /usr/share/doc/mplayer which does not exist21:13
kerioonly some stuff like modal dialogs work slightly differently21:13
luke-jrrly: why not?21:13
rlykerio: how is it horrendously broken?21:14
luke-jrrly: N900 isn't a phone, and Maemo isn't a phone OS21:14
keriohuh... for instance, there are no windows in android21:14
rlyluke-jr: on my desktop, on Squeeze, it is already way too unstable for me.21:14
luke-jrrly: wtf is unstable?21:14
luke-jrbesides Konqueror :/21:14
rlykerio: so, you mean that every application has to be rewritten for Android and you see that as a disadvantage?21:15
kerioyeah, for instance21:15
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kerioor the fact that some applications can open multiple windows21:15
valeriusNCreteil ah, Purged mplayer and samba-common, successfully21:15
rlykerio: which application can open muliple windows on the N900, btw?21:15
Creteilvalerius, my fiw seem to have worked properly !!! now you have another troubles :#21:16
CreteilYou might want to run `apt-get -f install' to correct these:21:16
CreteilThe following packages have unmet dependencies:21:16
kerioevery program can21:16
Creteil  freoffice: Depends: freoffice-feedback-plugin but it is not installable21:16
Creteil  libsoprano4: Depends: soprano-daemon (= 2.5.2-maemo0) but it is not installable21:16
CreteilE: Unmet dependencies. Try 'apt-get -f install' with no packages (or specify a solution).21:16
keriorly: for instance, abiword21:16
rlykerio: yes, but which one does?21:16
rlykerio: ok21:16
kerioor xchat21:16
luke-jrthe terminal does too21:17
Sicelorly: terminal21:17
keriorly: the n900 is closer to a netbook than a smartphone21:17
CreteilvaleriusN, for the new problem try :21:18
Creteilapt-get remove --purge freoffice libsoprano421:18
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CreteilvaleriusN, after that I think you don't have more error message about packages installed ...21:18
valeriusNCreteil Fixed! Yes, I first did apt-get install -f, then dpkg -P samba-common, dpkg -P mplayer, then apt-get install -f, then dpkg --configure -a, and the problem fixed! (that's after I run your script)21:19
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valeriusNCreteil so, BIG thanks!21:20
keriorly: i really want an openpandora :(21:20
CreteilvaleriusN, No problem ...21:20
rlykerio: that's the video game emulator?21:20
Creteilanyhow, someone to explain what is the problem with builder reporting an error like :
rlyThe one which they had trouble manufacturing, IIRC.21:20
Sicelowhat instability u have with debian?21:22
keriorly: yeah21:22
keriobut it's not only for games :)21:22
rlySicelo: only with KDE. I don't really remember.21:22
Siceloi have same (6.0.1), gnome, running on a P2, 350MHz, 640MB ram.21:22
Sicelomy N900 is actually more powerful than my system ;)21:23
rlySicelo: I can't stop thinking 'OMG, how could they ever have released this?'.21:23
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rlySicelo: I am going to upgrade to 8GB of RAM :)21:23
kerioi want a n900 with 8gb of ram :(21:24
rlyBecause sadly, 4GB is too little.21:24
keriothe n900 would be a pretty beefy machine, if not for the stupid amount of ram21:24
rlyNot for Debian, but for the terrible complicated stuff that I ask of my machine.21:24
Sicelosuch as..21:24
rlyI can't wait until I have an Exabyte of RAM.21:25
rlySicelo: I think for VMs 16GB would be more comfortable, really, but even without a VM compilation can take up a large amount of RAM.21:26
DocScrutinizerkerio: pretty beefy is a bit relative21:27
kerioDocScrutinizer: cpu is worth jack shit21:28
rlyThe machine powering Watson is pretty beefy.21:28
rlyBut still pretty smallish compared to the human brain.21:28
keriomeh, perhaps the brain is just really, really optimized21:29
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rlyThe brain evolved in our universe.21:29
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rlySoftware has to work in all universes.21:29
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keriohuh... what?21:29
rly(which is another way of saying that it is optimized)21:30
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rlyIt is likely that the brain encodes some invariants which are only true in our natural habitat.21:30
rlyOr which are good default for the first few days/years of our lives.21:30
rlyIf you have just a machine, but it doesn't have any bias, then it doesn't do anything.21:31
rlyNow, that's offtopic ;)21:32
Siceloaiui nothing is off-topic unless somebody complains, or it's getting in the way of 'assistance'21:33
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psycho_oreosjonwil, I hate to say this but isn't that is what ukeyboard editor is for?21:36
psycho_oreoswell at least to change the vkb bindings I suppose21:36
jonwilThis is different in that its more like the "official" way (i.e. it does it like the way Nokia does)21:37
jonwilplus ukeyboard doesnt have a way to decompile existing vkb files AFAIK21:37
psycho_oreosthough I do recall it just creates a new one and it was recommended that you create one with a completely different name, probably to prevent overwriting21:38
psycho_oreosnevertheless I guess editing vkb would be interesting. Now it needs is for some developer to maybe make vkb more flexible/user-friendly on N900 ;)21:38
* psycho_oreos thinks Macer would've probably liked this21:39
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rlyI miss all kinds of icons in Abiword. Do you also have that?21:51
rlyBasicaly 3 out of 6 icons at the bottom or something like that.21:51
Siceloyeah. i do21:52
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rlyWhy do people upload such crap?21:53
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rlyHow do I configure in xchat that I don't want to see it when people join the channel?22:21
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rlyUsing xchat on a phone is fairly bad ass, btw ;)22:22
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rlyNever mind.22:27
ShadowJK/chanopt something..22:27
rlyNever mind means I already found the solution, in case that wasn't clear.22:27
ShadowJKIt's not clear because the solution isn't visible :)22:28
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rlyShould I say no need to answer next time?22:28
rly /set irc_conf_mode 1 does it.22:28
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rlyI don't think it gets any more geeky than this.22:29
rlyOr, perhaps I could play some Life Role Playing game while being on IRC while holding a sword in my other hand.22:30
ShadowJKthere's that nethack gui22:30
rlyIt's not really my style, though.22:30
rlyI don't get what people find fun about nethack.22:31
rlyPerhaps you need a physical friend that is enthusiastic about it to explain it, because I just saw a bunch of ascii art with some lame texts.22:31
rlyI think I played it for like 15 minutes or so.22:31
ShadowJKthat's a pretty good description of internet too22:32
mgedmintry brogue!22:32
rlyShadowJK: nah. Via Internet you can connect to interesting people in almost real-time to perform business of any kind, etc.22:33
ShadowJKnethack has in-game stores!22:33
ShadowJKAnd also you'll find the ghosts of hte people who went before you and failed22:34
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rlyYou know I just figured out that I don't actually need to hold the blue key above shift? ...22:35
rlyThat makes input a LOT easier :P22:35
Siceloshift too. both are 'sticky'22:37
rlyIs there also a mobile IRC client, which travels from machine to machine?22:37
rlySo, basically you would have it on machine X, then you say 'move to machine Y' and then you could continue your session there, etc. So, basically 'cloud-screen'.22:38
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Sicelobouncer ;)22:38
Sicelono client i can think of22:39
rlySicelo: what exactly is an irc bouncer?22:39
rlySicelo: I run IRC occassionaly on a server and connect to it from multiple locations. Is that what you mean?22:40
* ShadowJK runs irssi on his server, and has irssi-proxy loaded in irssi, and connects to irssi with xchat through vpn. Seamless when N900 switches from wifi to edge and back, and also xchat on desktop connected to same thing22:40
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rlyShadowJK: how do you connect to irssi with xchat through vpn (is that on your phone?)? What is 'edge' (3G)?22:42
ShadowJKedge is 2g22:42
ShadowJKI run openvpn on server and n90022:42
Sicelorly: a boncer is basically as u described. advantage is that u can connect to it even from 'dumb' devices. even Nokia S40 devices, via jmIrc22:43
rlyCan you also have two clients running at the same time with the same username?22:43
rlyI am not really seeing the details of ShadowJK's setup, but it sounds like I should also have that.22:44
Macermessed my phone up22:44
Macerhave to flash it22:44
Macerbackupmenu was fail lol22:45
Maceris the cssu stable done?22:45
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mintuxmy host is  ubuntu 11.04 I installed maemo-sdk5 completely .but I can't run it. I do this these steps according to 1-run this and see this 2-after that run and got errors => process 3475: arguments to dbus_connection_add_filter() were incorrect, assertion "connection != NULL" failed in22:48
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mintuxwhat shall I do22:48
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rlySicelo: what is the difference between screen and a bouncer?22:52
rlyI.e. screen irssi22:52
luke-jrwith screen, you have to use a CLI client :P22:52
rlySo, a bouncer is something like a cache basically.22:53
rlyCan multiple clients connect to it on the same time?22:53
rlyat the same time*22:53
rlyOr rather a multi-client relay.22:53
mgedmina bouncer is like an irc proxy22:54
mgedminthe real irc server thinks it's a client22:55
mgedminthe clients you use (on any OS) think it's a server22:55
mgedminit sits in between and passes messages through -- or buffers them when there are no clients22:55
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luke-jrrly: yes22:55
luke-jrrly: Quassel is the ideal "bouncer"22:56
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mintuxno solution?22:57
rlyEggdrop is a bouncer too, right?22:57
kerioluke-jr: NOPE22:59
ShadowJKrly, nope22:59
rlyOk, I misremembered that, apparently it is a bot.23:00
* mgedmin uses znc23:00
mgedmin(the only one I've tried; works; is not very user friendly)23:00
keriomgedmin: are you kidding23:01
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mgedminno, I have very high standards23:01
keriomgedmin: /znc loadmod webmin then connect to znc with your browser23:01
mgedminfirst time I _hear_ about this /znc thing23:02
mgedminI thought you needed to /query *** or whatever and then do cryptic whatevers23:02
keriowell, /znc is basically /msg *status23:02
kerioexcept shorter23:02
kerioalso wtf, how did you detach channels?23:03
mgedmin/znc help draws me an ascii table too wide for my xchat window23:03
* mgedmin blinks23:03
keriomgedmin: so enlarge it :c23:03
mgedminthis is a 1280x800 laptop, xchat is already maximized23:03
keriomgedmin: either /detach channel or /znc detach regexp23:03
mgedminI just join/leave channels in xchat like a normal person23:03
keriowhy leaving them23:03
rlyluke-jr: Quassel seems to be a client and bouncer in one.23:04
keriomgedmin: why are you using znc, if not for the extra stuff?23:04
mgedminbecause I need a bouncer, and znc is the first one I found that looked like a lazy user like me might be able to use23:05
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kerioyeah, znc isn't very friendly if you don't use it :\23:05
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rlyI wonder why most networking (DNS servers, mail servers, webservers, etc.) stuff is so hard to configure. It seems that it is just job protection.23:06
keriorly: huh... it's as simple as possible23:07
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kerioshit's complicated, yo23:07
mgedminthere's a lower limit to complexity23:07
rlyFor example Freenet configuration is a lot easier than setting up Postfix.23:07
mgedmindoesn't mean every piece of software manages to reach it23:07
mgedminsometimes I wonder if any do23:07
rlyFreenet is much more complicated in how it works.23:08
keriorly: do you realize the ungodly amount of stuff an MTA does?23:08
mgedminat one point I thought I'd simplify my life and use Cherokee instead of Apache on my home file server23:08
rlykerio: yes, I saw a presentation about that recently from Tokio.23:08
rlykerio: well, that was just about email and how horrible it was.23:08
mgedminregretted that after the first upgrade: old config syntax not supported, go do pointy-clicky adminy things in your browser again to set up everything from scratch23:09
mgedminI felt like an NT admin and promptly went back to Apache23:09
keriomgedmin: y u no use nginx :(23:09
rlyNot supporting upgrades is epic failure.23:09
mgedminngnix scares me23:09
rlyAlso a GUI should always compile to human readable configuration files or some database.23:10
rlyNot to some proprietary binary blob.23:10
keriolololo gconf23:10
rlyMost closed source programs actually produce encrypted blobs for exactly the opposite reason.23:11
mgedminthere's a reason I avoid most closed source programs23:11
mgedminmany reasons, really, but let's not go there23:11
rlymgedmin: I think everyone with an N900 that uses ssh on their phone agrees ;)23:11
rlyIf you have really good contracts, closed source can work, theoretically.23:12
kerionot really23:12
mgedminwe just don't hear about the failures :)23:13
rlyContracts like 'all bugs will be fixed within 24 hours', etc.23:13
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mgedminis that possible?23:13
rlymgedmin: likely no software company would commit to that.23:13
mgedminthere are bugs that take weeks to figure out the root cause23:13
kerio"all bugs will be features within 24 hours"23:13
mgedmin"we will react within 24 hours" is more likely23:13
mgedmin"yep, that's a bug. we'll fix it. someday."23:13
mgedminalways read the small print23:13
rlyMaking it open source introduces an element of competition.23:14
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keriothe good thing about oss is that the developers actually *use* their software23:14
rlykerio: yes, more than with commercial software.23:15
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rlyTake for example Photoshop. I doubt that the developers can actually produce art.23:15
rlyIt's a good program, sure, but I can imagine that something like Blender would produce something closed to what graphics people want in the end.23:15
nealmerlin1991: What's the url of the version of the cssu that you wanted tested?23:16
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rlymgedmin: I think it is possible to arrange for source code licenses for some closed source software, btw.23:18
rlyI am also allergic to dual licensed code, because often the 'open-source' part is only open-source according to its legal definition not according to its spirit.23:19
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rlyLinux drivers come to mind again.23:20
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SpeedEvilkerio: It depends.23:21
mgedminBlender is not necessarily a good example of an open source project: it was closed source initially23:21
mgedminalthough I don't know how much it changed since then23:22
SpeedEvilkerio: People interested in a programming project are not always interested in using that project much.23:22
SpeedEvilkerio: And can have strange, idealistic ideas about ways users 'should' use it.23:22
SpeedEvilJOSM suffers from this.23:22
SpeedEvilJava open-streetmap editor23:22
SpeedEvilActual budgets help shittons.23:23
SpeedEvil'we think this is a better user interface' -> test with lots of tester/users -> y/n23:23
rlyI think in reality the testing is not really needed. If you build something great, you don't need a tester to verify that for you.23:24
SpeedEvilYes you do.23:24
SpeedEvilAs you may be an ass-hat.23:24
rlyFor example Google Maps, if you see that, you don't think 'wow, that sucks'.23:25
SpeedEvilOr do things wierdly.23:25
DocScrutinizerand only the worst ass-hats deny they might be some23:25
SpeedEvilSure. But google maps is a very limited case.23:25
SpeedEvilIt's a very, very simple UI, that doesn't do much.23:25
SpeedEvilNow, go on to a map editor, for example.23:25
SpeedEvilThat is several orders of magnitude harder to get right.23:26
DocScrutinizera CAD23:26
DocScrutinizerworse: simulators23:26
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SpeedEvilAnd then you've got to think about who you're optimising for.23:26
SpeedEvilOptimising for both the casual and expert user is _HARD_.23:27
rlyI think Emacs basically nailed it.23:27
rlyThere are some improvements to be made, of course.23:27
rlyBut the basic model that Emacs has is great.23:27
rlyIt is self-documenting, etc.23:27
rlyFor CAE (assuming that is engineering), I would expect to be able to say 'place a bolt of 3mm at coordinates (1,2,3)'.23:28
rlyOr 'Place the cheapest bolt selected from webservice X instead of bolt id 10'23:28
DocScrutinizerEmacs makes aunties cry shit23:29
rlySo, basically today, lots of NLP with some sub language and basically collect everything users have ever input in a database and then try to make sense of it.23:29
rlyThat's what Google does too in the queries they receive.23:29
SpeedEvilYou need to enforce rules.23:30
rlyThere is some input stream and some desired behaviour in the mental model of the user and you want to map those automatically.23:30
SpeedEvildoes 3mm mean diameter or length23:30
rlySpeedEvil: it could ask that.23:30
rlyRigid rules are a thing of the past.23:30
rlySure, you need rigid rules in _some_ API, but not the end-user interface.23:30
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Juozapascan u recommend some cli gtalk client ?23:31
luke-jrkerio: ZNC has weirdness still23:32
* DocScrutinizer heads out screaming, as he already had the pleasure to work with those kind of "grammar free UI"23:32
DocScrutinizer**dust settles slowly**23:33
rlyDocScrutinizer: Google is grammar free too and it works. Now, Wolfram Alpha doesn't.23:33
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rlyThe difference is that the domain for Wolfram Alpha is too large.23:33
DocScrutinizergoogle is a very simple grep web frontend with jus one single command and purpose23:34
rlyNow, it is a bit more than grep.23:34
DocScrutinizernot really23:35
rlyThat's like saying a scramjet is a paper plane that goes faster.23:35
rlyI thought the page rank algorithm was fairly 'novel'.23:35
rlyThey don't use that anymore exactly in that form, though.23:36
DocScrutinizerwhat is the possible number of degrees of freedom in google's results/reaction?23:36
DocScrutinizergoogle is not grammar free, it has an implicit ultrasimple grammar/semantic23:37
rlyDocScrutinizer: there are things like 'euros in yens'.23:37
DocScrutinizerthat's why it works23:37
rlyDocScrutinizer: yes, but I think CAE is also 'simple'.23:37
SpeedEvilrly: Have you ever actually done any?23:37
rlyMathematics is too complex.23:37
rlySpeedEvil: I did some Autocad.23:38
rlySpeedEvil: and I read some tutorials about Solidworks.23:38
rlySolidworks is nothing else but the composition of primitive objects and composite objects with some finite number of simulations.23:39
rlyBut perhaps I missed something.23:39
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rlySpeedEvil: why do you think it is too complex?23:42
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SpeedEvilBecause of the many ways to specify position.23:44
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SpeedEvilAbsolute, relative, angular, indexing in some manner to previous features.23:44
rlyAh, right, nowadays people use fractals to design buildings; I forgot ;)23:46
DocScrutinizer'place a bolt of 3mm at coordinates (1,2,3)'.  --  that's a system where user fetches LART after 3 minutes, as you have *no idea* where to get (1,2,3) from23:46
rlyLuser Attitude Readjustment Tool. heh23:47
DocScrutinizeralso useful for litter23:48
rlyOk, so what about a CAVE then?23:48
DocScrutinizeraka crap23:48
rlyI think some 3D virtual environments are pretty impressive these days.23:48
DocScrutinizerCAVE might actually be a system with future23:48
DocScrutinizerthe concept23:49
DocScrutinizerof direct MMI without layers of abstraction in between23:49
rlyDocScrutinizer: what is MMI?23:50
DocScrutinizerI.E user doing things "the natural way"23:50
DocScrutinizerMan Machine Interface23:50
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DocScrutinizerSegway is so cool because it has a MMI that's natural to how you usually move your body23:51
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rlyDocScrutinizer: do you work for OpenMoko?23:51
DocScrutinizerI did when OM existed23:51
DocScrutinizer~ DocScrutinizer23:52
infobotmethinks docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko23:52
rlyHmm, no wonder you know about everything there is to know about phones.23:52
rlyGood for you.23:52
mgedminwould maemo (or android) exist if openmoko hadn't existed?23:52
DocScrutinizerin a sense of cause result here's no link23:53
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mgedminI was thinking more like idea/inspiration/proof of possibility/etc23:54
rlyThe problem with Openmoko was that it wasn't obvious that you could actually get a working phone with working basics (navigation, sms, chat, email, phone).23:54
rlyAt least, that's how I perceived it.23:54
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DocScrutinizeryou could say, if times were so much different that OM never emerged, there's probably not been any maemo either23:55
SpeedEvilI think the rot actually set in at the same point.23:55
SpeedEvilOn n900 and OM23:55
DocScrutinizeractually I think maemo started same time or maybe earlier than OM23:55
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SpeedEvilThey decided to largely dump a working user interface, to go to a more polished different one.23:55
SpeedEvilAdmittedly, in n900 case, it was somewhat pulled off, but a lot of dev traction was lost.23:55
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SpeedEvilOM could have had a shipping, workable hacker-phone based on the neo1973, shipping for xmas 2007.23:56
DocScrutinizerrly: your perception was quite accurate23:56
SpeedEvilIn may 2007, the phone stack was almost there.23:56
rlyWhat happened to the 'IP' of OpenMoko?23:57
SpeedEvilBut it then got dumped and reinvented, and they went for shiny new hardware that would solve all their problems (but diddn't) which delayed the project another year.23:57
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SpeedEvilAnother 18 months actually23:57
SpeedEvilAnd at that time, apple ate it.23:57
DocScrutinizerrly: I sleep on that23:57
SpeedEvilAnd the n900 ate the remaining chance of a significant offshoot project by decapitating the market.23:58
DocScrutinizerrly: honestly we placed all "IP" under creative commons23:58
SpeedEvilAs the n900 was 'open enough'.23:58
DocScrutinizeror GPL23:58
rlyI wouldn't mind for the government to sponsor such projects.23:59
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rlyAs an investor I also wouldn't really see a big problem.23:59

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