IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-11-05

DocScrutinizerfor those who know how to design hw, yeah :-D00:00
DocScrutinizerotoh no update releases for hw :-/00:00
DocScrutinizera bug is a bug stays a bug, on EE00:01
DocScrutinizercatch in in prototype testing or live with it00:01
DocScrutinizerthe cases where you can work around hw bugs with sw patches are really really rare00:02
DocScrutinizer(and one of my favourite disciplines)00:02
SpeedEvilHardware is 'simple'.00:03
SpeedEvilYou get X,Y,Z connected together in the correct way so they can all talk as defined by the manufacturer.00:03
SpeedEvilThis is 'easy'.00:03
whatever4everWhat is the major functionality that android lacks that maemo/meego has?00:03
SpeedEvilSoftware is hard. You have to create your own millions of lines of code.00:04
whatever4ever... just to be blunt00:04
whatever4everI wonder how much of the speed difference between n900 & android phones is the software and how much is the hardware00:04
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keriowhatever4ever: the n900 sucks00:06
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kerioit's *constantly* swapping, and the cpu is not exactly fast00:06
whatever4everso the question would apply to that as: how much of that is because of software and how much because of HW00:06
keriothe software is really good00:07
whatever4everSo if someone got meego/maemo working on a nexus one then it would be sick?00:10
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whatever4everthanks for the guidance Speedevil and DocScrutinizer00:23
whatever4everIf you've ideas about how to pack a lot of devices into a small place, then I'd love to hear them00:23
SpeedEvilWell - current designs pretty much do that.00:25
SpeedEvilYou get a many layer PCB, and solder teh components to it.00:25
SpeedEvilYou can get stupid component density.00:25
whatever4everwhat do you think about the price difference and resistive vs capacitive00:25
whatever4everThere are some PoCs out there that do fairly light touch multitouch resistive00:25
SpeedEvilI'm divided.00:25
SpeedEvilI like the n900 resistive.00:25
whatever4everSame, but that makes me biased00:26
SpeedEvilIf it did multitouch, it would be near-perfect.00:26
SpeedEvilThe n950 (and I assume the n9) is close.00:26
whatever4everA lot of companies claim that people can't use/don't like resistive00:26
SpeedEvilErr - hard00:26
whatever4everWhat's that DocScrutinizer, the price?00:26
SpeedEvilPrecisely selecting things is hard.00:26
SpeedEvilStantum = tin00:26
SpeedEvilThe coating on resistive displays is largely indum-tin-oxide coating on plastic/glass.00:27
whatever4everstrandum would probably be a lot to lisence00:27
SpeedEvilAlso - capacitive dies if you get the tiniest drops of water on the device.00:27
whatever4evernot permanently..00:27
whatever4everyes, when I lived in chicago, I'd use my n900 with gloves and people would ask about it00:28
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SpeedEvilNo, not permenantly.00:28
SpeedEvilBut it can be useless until completely absolutely dry.00:28
SpeedEvilWhich causes obvious issues if you absolutely need to look something up.00:28
whatever4everI'm curious how much a really good resistive touch screen would cost to lisence00:29
jacekowskinot a lot00:29
jacekowskipeople don't like resistive00:29
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SpeedEvilOr managers.00:29
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: capacitive deals with water quite well00:30
jacekowskiat least one in n800:30
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SpeedEviljacekowski: n95000:30
DocScrutinizerStantum >> *00:32
DocScrutinizeronly advantage of c-ts: it can be hard glass00:33
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whatever4everHow long with the n950 have support?00:34
whatever4everI mean, how useful it will be in the future for general use?00:35
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whatever4everMight get one from a friend00:35
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SpeedEvilThe n950 is not legally saleable or transferrable.00:36
SpeedEvilAt least if it's under teh same agreements we got.00:36
whatever4everWhat's transferrable mean?00:36
DocScrutinizercommercial DDP forbids sale for iirc 2 years00:37
whatever4everYeah, if the consequences are severe I don't think my friend will give me one00:37
DocScrutinizeralso you have to be aware N950 won't see much support of any kind in the future00:39
whatever4evern950 won't play flash?00:39
SpeedEvilNo flash.00:39
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whatever4evern900 even does that00:40
whatever4everWhat's the deal?00:40
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DocScrutinizerNokia soon will stop to provide updates for this exotic00:40
DocScrutinizernot much sense in supporting a "community" of some few 1000 N950 "owners"00:41
whatever4everJust thought it would be the same as the community of n9 users00:42
whatever4everthough tht eonly diff was a HW keyboard00:42
DocScrutinizerat some point in time Nokia will offer to swap the N950 for a N9, and then they stop supporting N950 completely00:42
DocScrutinizerno, the devices are fundamentally incompatible00:43
SpeedEvilOn a low-level basis.00:43
DocScrutinizerjust similar enough to develop on N950 for N900:43
SpeedEvilOn a software level, they are pretty compatible.00:43
whatever4everI thought the n950 was build to help dev for the n900:43
SpeedEvilOn an application and most upper-level UI stuff they are similar.00:44
whatever4everAre you guys going to use the n9 as your main phone?00:44
SpeedEvilOn a very low level basis, not-so-much.00:44
whatever4everHow will you manage without the HW kb?00:44
nox-i think the n950 was meant to be released as its own model until elop came along...00:44
whatever4evera wrist keyboard?00:44
SpeedEvilSpeaking personally, though I have a n950, I'm sticking for the n900.00:44
SpeedEvilsticking with00:44
DocScrutinizersame here00:44
jaska /wrist00:44
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SpeedEvilwhatever4ever: Until it becomes unusable, or something better comes along.00:45
MohammadAGI miss that game00:45
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whatever4everyou guys think you've optimized your n900 well?01:04
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whatever4everIf so, then can you pastebin a ps -A01:04
MacerDocScrutinizer: this newer stable cssu release01:04
Macerwill everybody be forced to flash it?01:04
Maceror is it a simple pkg manager OS update?01:05
MacerSpeedEvil: i agree. i just bought a replacement n900 :)01:05
whatever4everCan the Contacts app be modified?01:05
whatever4everI want to add a more functional groups feature01:05
DocScrutinizeryou're free to choose S or T CSSU, you can't switch on the fly though01:05
MacerS = Stable T = Testing ?01:06
Macercan't i just install both and use bootmenu to hotswap?01:06
Macerit has been a few months since i've had an n90001:06
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Maceri am thinking of the wrong thing01:07
Macerthe nand backup thing01:07
Macerit will come back to me later :) the thing you use to back the phone up to the SD01:07
MacerDocScrutinizer: but once installed cssu test will simply update through pkg manager?01:08
DocScrutinizerMacer: free to choose - on installation of CSSU01:08
Macerok. i'd go wtih testing then01:08
Macerstable is for the weak01:08
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Macerdamn how can i not remember the name of the boot thing to back up01:08
Macerit eludes me.. it has been quite a while01:08
Macerah.. yes! backupmenu01:08
Macercan't you hotswap from S to T with that?01:09
Macerjust flash one then the other and make a backup of each and restore when you want to swap between the two?01:09
Maceror is that not practical?01:09
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Maceri am sorry. i am only asking because i would rather flash my n900 now01:11
Macerto get cssu up and running on it then tweak it out01:11
Macerand get back to the golden days of having an awesome n900 again lol01:11
whatever4everso, can one modify the Contacts app?01:13
whatever4everI want to add group functionality01:13
whatever4everHow do you guys not miss calls when fucking with your n900s so much?01:13
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LaoLang_coolHow to know how many capacity of battery remains?01:17
LaoLang_coolmorning here :)01:17
SpeedEvilYou can't mofidy the contacts app, it's closed.01:17
LaoLang_coolSpeedEvil: no, I mean to get the info of battery, not contacts01:18
SpeedEvilI was answering whatever4ever's comment.01:19
SpeedEvilDo you mean the current state of the battery, or its remaining life?01:20
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LaoLang_coolSpeedEvil: I should have guessed that :)01:20
LaoLang_coolSpeedEvil: remaining life01:20
NIN101LaoLang_cool: hal-device bme may be what you are looking for.01:20
LaoLang_coolI think it should be in /proc subdir, but can't remember exactly01:20
LaoLang_coolNIN101: thanks, I will have a look at it. anyway, where can I find batt infos by cli cmd?01:22
SpeedEvilSee the scripts and other stuff referred to on
DocScrutinizer51or lshal|grep bat01:26
SpeedEvilthat too01:26
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer51: that's what I'm looking for exactly, thank you!01:27
whatever4everWho makes a shitty app on an open platform and then doesn't release source?01:28
whatever4everfkn A01:28
whatever4everI want groups01:28
SpeedEvilUnfortunately, the openness of the platform doesn't really extend to screwing withthe core of the platform.01:29
whatever4everContacts is just an app, what puts it closer to the core?01:30
DocScrutinizer51the core is open01:30
DocScrutinizer51it's nokia's apps and some middleware that's not01:31
DocScrutinizer51jonwil: got sth to RE for you: thr fsckng mce plugins01:32
jonwilAlready tried that and no, I cant reverse engineer the MCE plugins01:33
DocScrutinizer51my kbd backlight acts silly01:33
jonwili.e. tried and gave up01:33
jonwilcloning them that is01:33
jonwilI can find out more about what they might actually do01:33
jonwilif you name the specific plugin01:33
jonwilbut I cant actually clone any of em, too complex01:33
jonwillast time I tried, MCE went ape-shit and nearly stuffed things up01:34
jonwilso do you want me to find out what any of the plugins do?01:35
jonwilIf not, I will get back to reverse engineering eal-client :)01:35
jonwilaka tablet-browser-view-test01:36
jonwilwhich is different to the eal-client I posted to the list before :P01:36
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DocScrutinizer51well, abroad atm. Will ponder about it later01:36
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Macerbackupmenu is still in devel01:52
Macerno offense but are there even enough people to promote pkgs nowadays?01:52
whatever4everSo if they drop support on the n900/maemo, then why the fuck don't they release the source for the ""core"" apps?!01:55
Macerbecause they want to keep the patent01:55
Macerand it is possible for some reason or another they may use that base code again in something new01:55
whatever4everpatent for what?01:56
whatever4everomg, GAY01:56
whatever4ever(had to revert to high school vernacular, no other descriptors work)01:57
Maceryou would be surprised what patents hildon has that someone else may infringe :)01:57
Macerpatents are idiotic01:57
Macerlike "home button on the top right"01:57
Macerstuff like that01:57
whatever4eversoftware ones are ridiculousnes01:57
Macerincredibly vague01:57
MacerALRIGHTY. let me drop my G2 8GB SD into this n90001:58
Macerand roll the G2 over with my car01:58
Macerso happy to have an n900 again!01:58
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Macerlibacl libattr02:02
Macerugh... they seriously need to add those to backupmenu deps02:02
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whatever4evercool app by your description *installing* (Backupmenu)02:03
Maceryeah. it helped me once before02:03
Macerit is similar to clockwork for android02:03
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whatever4everWhen I've some time I'd like to build the newest pidgin and finch and OTR for the n90002:04
whatever4everOTR hasn't worked in a year02:04
Maceris telepathy closed?02:05
Macerconversations etc?02:05
whatever4everIf it is part of "core" whatever that is02:05
jonwilthe conversations UI (rtcom-messaging-ui) is closed source02:06
jonwilMost of telepathy is open02:06
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jonwiltelepathy-ring (which handles calls and SMS) is closed because it talks to the cellular services daemon02:06
jonwilwhich is the low-level daemon that handles cell modem stuff02:07
Macerlibacl is called libacl1?02:07
whatever4everI thought we chose maemo over android because it was "more open"02:09
whatever4everWhat does that mean?02:09
whatever4everIt isn't...02:09
SpeedEvilIt is, generally.02:09
luke-jrwhatever4ever: it isn't, no.02:10
luke-jrthe only thing Maemo has over Android is X1102:10
whatever4everluke-jr: interesting insight02:11
whatever4evercan you use screen and get a remote X11 in android?02:11
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Maceri heard there was an xserver for android02:14
Maceri never used it02:14
Maceror tried it tho02:14
Macerbut i have to agree with luke-jr .. this "open" stuff is bs02:14
Macerit is something that companies used to say to sound like they were a part of the developer community :)02:14
Macerjust marketing02:14
whatever4evermarketing to the 1%, heh02:16
Macerwell.. developers have this sick thing02:17
Macerwhere they hear "we are making an open os" and start to believe it02:17
Macerthen find out a few years later that most of the stuff is closed02:17
Macerand that they simply allowed nokia to use their efforts in order to not pay anybody02:17
SpeedEvilThere are many degrees of openness. From unlocked bootloader and nothing. Through kernel source and closed drivers, to kernel source and open drivers, to 'full' open - with source for almost everything.02:18
Maceri mean why pay developers when you can dupe a "community" into believing you are all about being "open" .. lol.. what a racket02:18
luke-jrSpeedEvil: nothing is every 100% closed02:19
MacerSpeedEvil: show me a fully open device and i will show you a flying pink elephant02:19
SpeedEvilThe neo1973/freerunner is the only phone that was the last.02:19
luke-jranything less than 100% open is therefore "closed"02:19
Maceri blame china02:19
SpeedEvilThe second-last probably describes both harmattan, fremantle, and android to a degree with some devices.02:19
SpeedEvilAnd yes, there are a regrettable number of chinese 'closed' tablets without even GPL offers, running android.02:20
SpeedEvilWhile they may have reimplemented the linux kernel as non-GPL, I have some doubts.02:20
Macernice.. i have backupmenu installed02:20
MacerSpeedEvil: there is no such thing as "open"02:21
Macerit is just a scam02:21
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SpeedEvilMacer: neo1973/freerunner was quite open.02:21
Macerthe only way for there to be a truly open mobile device would be for the "community" to make their own cell company02:21
SpeedEvilAnd, yes.02:22
Macerthen engineer devices that they didn't care would be copied and mass produced by india, china, russia, etc02:22
SpeedEvilTo a degree.02:22
SpeedEvilI don't personally care about a closed cellmo.02:22
Macerthere is no such thing as a degree.. it is a scam02:22
SpeedEvilThere are good reasons for it.02:22
Macerit is a cheap way for companies to get developers to do their dirty work02:22
Macerfor free02:22
Macercheaper than india indians02:22
Macerit is why apple is winning.. and nokia is fail02:23
Macerwhy windows is still the largest os market share on a pc and linux is always the "one that might"02:23
Maceropen is a lie02:23
Macernot only is it a lie... but you have communities forking and branching and getting pissy and ruining any type of centralization which is where the advantage is with a closed source02:24
SpeedEvilComputing is heading in scary directions.02:24
SpeedEvilSee the recent mac closed apps thing.02:24
whatever4everfuck macs02:24
whatever4everSure powerful people have more power02:25
Macerapple is winning because there is an overlord that says what is what02:25
whatever4everbut so do novices02:25
wmaroneSpeedEvil: sandboxing isn't a bad idea for security02:25
Macerwhatever4ever: apple was about to go bankrupt02:25
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wmaroneat least when not done badly02:25
Macerso i refuse to listen to the "apple was rich" theory02:25
whatever4everI have to use a lame macbook pro at work, but I triple boot it02:25
Macerthey were pulled from the ashes by the ipod.. and a series of closed devices02:25
whatever4everApple is fairly rich, actually02:25
Macerbecause if you didn't listen to the overlord you were fired02:25
Macerthey are now02:26
Macerthey weren't earlier02:26
whatever4everone can tell by $/share02:26
Macerthey were losing so bad to MS02:26
Macerthat they were on the verge of finding a buyer or going bankrupt02:26
whatever4everWell it is obvious what we want02:26
whatever4everWe just need to figure out how to market technology better02:26
whatever4ever*we* as in powerusers/linuxerz02:26
Macera community needs to make technology that someone actually wants02:26
SpeedEvilwmarone: Sandboxing - done sanely - if there is a way to get out of the sandbox with user approval.02:26
Maceris open02:26
Macermeaning the community would have to engineer its own device02:27
Macerfab it02:27
Macerbuild it02:27
Macerdistribute it02:27
Macerand make enough  money off of it to cover all of it02:27
wmaroneSpeedEvil: of course, I operate under the assumption that end-user control is implicit ;)02:27
whatever4everToo much work/coordination02:27
SpeedEvilwmarone: sandboxing, and the assumption that the OS knows best and makes assumptions about data transfer costs, and ...02:27
Macerwhich is why being open is a lie02:27
whatever4everit works with some things02:27
Macerthere is no money in being open other than sounding open for a good market bite02:27
whatever4everlike the web runs on OSS02:27
whatever4everWe just need to figure it for HW02:27
SpeedEvilThe fundamental problem is for 'community needs to'02:27
whatever4ever3d printers should solve that eventually02:27
SpeedEvilIs money.02:27
Maceroh the software is there02:27
Macerthe hardware isn't02:28
Macerthere is NO open hardware02:28
SpeedEvilSomeone needs to sit down and plonk a fucking huge chunk of cash on the table.02:28
MacerSpeedEvil: exactly. but the people with money aren't going to do it unless they see a return02:28
SpeedEvilMacer: I'd do it.02:28
Macerand NO company will do it because they have shareholders02:28
SpeedEvilBut ~$500 isn't going very far.02:28
whatever4everIt isn't just money02:28
Macerwhich is why nokia pulled away from symbian, maemo, and meego02:28
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whatever4everWhen there the right conditions and the right startup02:29
Macerbecause shareholders are pissed02:29
whatever4everit'll happen02:29
SpeedEvilIf I had ~$50m spare, I might give it a go.02:29
Macerthat will never happen02:29
SpeedEvilWith perhaps $20m02:29
MacerSpeedEvil: yoou wouldn't even need that much02:29
whatever4everor when HW for mobiles settles down02:29
whatever4everinto something like x8602:29
Maceryou would need like 10m02:29
whatever4everor at least that standard02:29
Macerand a fully open device02:29
wmaroneMacer: they're pissed cause Nokia was doing FOSS, right. It couldn't have anything to do with the incompetent internal management that stalled the company for years?02:29
Macerwhich you will never find02:29
SpeedEvilMacer: you'd need 10m for one fully open device.02:29
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SpeedEvilMacer: produced in high volumes with a shiny factor.02:29
MacerSpeedEvil: not if you find a good MIT engineer :)02:29
whatever4everwmarone: it isn't FOSS02:29
SpeedEvilMacer: It's _WAAAAY_ more than one engineer.02:30
wmaronewhatever4ever: enough of it was02:30
Macertook 3 to make the first apple02:30
Macerout of wood02:30
MacerSpeedEvil: so either way02:30
Macersaying there is a degree of open is being duped02:30
SpeedEvilMacer: The first apple was _orders_of_magnitude easier than contempory devices for many reasons.02:30
Macerthere is no such thing02:30
SpeedEvilWhy opensource hardware is hard.02:30
SpeedEvilMacer: yes, there is.02:30
SpeedEvilMacer: If you go all the way to the nutty end, you insist on specs for everything.02:31
Macerlol... not as far as a mobile device is concerned.. not even PCs... even ubuntu has decided to rely on closed blobs02:31
wmaroneMacer: what closed blobs?02:31
whatever4everrely vs accept02:31
SpeedEvilThis will end up costing you tens of millions easy.02:31
whatever4everclosed drivers are necessary today due to nvidia & ati02:31
whatever4everfor good linux distros02:31
Macerwhatever4ever: exactly02:31
SpeedEvilAnd I personally don't care that much about some closed blobs.02:32
Macerthey are necessary becuse ati and nvidia don't want to paste their IP to the entire planet02:32
SpeedEvilThey're not the big issue.02:32
whatever4everThis isn't a catstrophie02:32
Macerand have the chinese make fake cards02:32
Macerevery company is thinking the same thing02:32
whatever4everWe just all need to agree on an organized effort02:32
SpeedEvilThe big issue is can you totally gut and reinvent the OS.02:32
whatever4everwe'd need like 2 PMs from this channel02:32
whatever4everproject managers02:32
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SpeedEvilClosed graphics drivers don't really harm that.02:32
MacerSpeedEvil: if you engineered an open phone.. companies would take it.. and close it02:32
whatever4evermake some sites and ways of organizing the maemo community02:32
whatever4everuse our resources together02:32
whatever4evera lot of us know great HW and SW guys02:33
whatever4everget a prototype02:33
SpeedEvilMacer: In many countries, it's viable to sell direct to consumers, not through nets.02:33
whatever4everget VC'd and start a company02:33
whatever4everThose are the steps^02:33
whatever4everif you're so inclined02:33
SpeedEvilwhatever4ever: A prototype is going to cost ~$50K at least - neglecting thousands of hours of skilled dev time.02:33
whatever4evernot saying the HW will be open02:33
MacerSpeedEvil: if you managed to make a truly open phone then you would have a huge base of buyers02:33
Maceryou could probably charge $600+ per device02:34
Macerbut it will never happen02:34
SpeedEvilMacer: You can't legally sell a truly open phone in many countries.02:34
Macerso this open crap is dreaming02:34
wmaroneMacer: are you standing in for luke-jr as the resident absolutist?02:34
Macerit is almost like a bunch of aimless people not knowing where to go02:34
SpeedEvilOnce the first person has misused it to do phone hacking, you have to reengineer it, or you will be guilty of the 'selling cellphone hacking tools' law in the UK, for example.02:34
Macerwmarone: lol. no.. i am being a realist02:35
SpeedEvilYou're being an ass-hat.02:35
SpeedEvilNo PC is open.02:35
Macera truly open device is impossible and the sun will turn into a red giant before anybody ever sees it02:35
whatever4everA little too much absolutism here02:35
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SpeedEvilIt has numerous closed firmware blobs, in everything from the keyboard, to the chipset.02:35
Macerwhatever4ever: pablo escobar swore that cocaine would be the liquor of the 80s02:35
Macerand that cocaine was only in prohibition02:36
SpeedEvilA phone as open as the average PC would be a _huge_ step forward.02:36
MacerSpeedEvil: irc will be around for decades .... when we are 80 in #maemo... show me anything that is open02:36
SpeedEvilThis was - pretty much - the state of the neo1973/freerunner.02:36
Maceranything at all :)02:36
SpeedEvilSee above comments about the scary way computing is going.02:37
jonwilThe "closed blobs" argument doesn't apply to ATI anymore02:37
* DocScrutinizer microwaves some more popcorn02:37
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whatever4evercoke isn't very good02:37
whatever4everhave you tried it?02:37
jonwilATI published their specs02:37
whatever4everwe've adderall, which even people who've done a lot of coke say is better02:37
Macerwhatever4ever: the point is that being a drug dealer he expected it to all work out02:37
whatever4ever(4 amphetamines in one)02:37
Macerwhile the rest of the world didn't :)02:37
whatever4everwhat's the parallel here?02:37
SpeedEviljonwil: It applies to the boot-rom in the chipset, the microcode in the CPU, ...02:37
Macerhonestly ... luke-jr may sound like a jerk... but he does make a valid point :)02:38
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Maceranywas.. i am going to tweak my n900 now :)02:39
SpeedEvilInsisting on phones being more open than the current crop of PCs is silly.02:39
Macerstill happy to have one.. but for me to sit there and say i have it because it is an awesome open device would be a lie.. i like it because it is like running debian in my pocket02:39
SpeedEvilThe current crop of PCs is acceptably open.02:40
SpeedEvilThere are issues. But...02:40
Maceri don't care if it is open or closed as long as it works the way i want which it does02:40
jonwilThe current crop of PCs is acceptably open02:40
Macerit has xterm and x1102:40
Macerwin :)02:40
jonwilMost cellphones are not acceptably open02:40
SpeedEvilThe current crop of phones are not comparably open to PCs.02:40
Macermost? none are02:40
jonwilThe N900 is close to acceptable02:40
Macernot even the n90002:40
SpeedEvilThe scary part is that PCs are heading in the cellphone direction.02:40
SpeedEvilThe n900 - if most phones were like it - is fine.02:41
whatever4everThey said you'd have nothing locally about 10 years ago02:41
jonwilA N900 running MeeGo would be open enough02:41
whatever4everall webapps02:41
whatever4everwe saw how that turned out02:41
SpeedEvilSimply as if most phones were like it, there would be far more community effort in getting stuff done.02:41
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wmaronewhatever4ever: and now MS is pushing secure boot in the most inconvenient way possible02:41
SpeedEvilRather than people wasting mindspace on 'roms' for android.02:41
SpeedEvilOr rooting ios.02:41
whatever4everrooting iOS?02:42
whatever4everwhat's that?02:42
whatever4everoh like jailbrake02:42
psycho_oreosjailbreak :þ02:42
DocScrutinizerpop pop pop02:43
whatever4everI want to addon the hardware for RFID on my n90002:43
whatever4everany of you do that?02:43
whatever4everIt would be convenient for copying rfid dongles02:43
SpeedEvilwhatever4ever: you - almost - can't.02:43
whatever4everand open doors02:43
whatever4everfor realz?02:43
whatever4everI thought I saw a guide02:43
SpeedEvilwhatever4ever: If you find a USB dongle, you in principle could use it with hostmode if you write the software.02:43
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whatever4everprobably the sexiest features of the nexus02:45
SpeedEvilWell - yes.02:46
SpeedEvilThat's not really related.02:46
SpeedEvilYou can as well say 'I added NFC to my poodle'02:47
whatever4everDoesn't it let you copy and send RFIDs?02:48
whatever4everfrom like any RFID dongle?02:48
SpeedEvilIt's just an oyster card.02:48
whatever4everhmmm, I saw someone copy a rfid key with the nexus one and open a lock02:48
SpeedEvilIt's just attached to different plastic02:48
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whatever4everwas it not an rfid key?02:48
SpeedEvilIt was not copying the RFID key.02:49
SpeedEvilIt was using the RFID key without any modification.02:49
SpeedEvilSimply removing it from the normal plastic card.02:49
SpeedEvilIt's exactly the same as duct-taping the card to the n90002:49
whatever4everDefinitely not02:51
whatever4everSomeone had a dongle that they put up to a lock to unlock it02:51
whatever4everthen this guy put it up to his nexus and copied it with some program02:51
whatever4everand then put his phone up to the lock and upon it02:52
whatever4everopened it02:52
whatever4everat Defcon02:52
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SpeedEvilThe above how-to02:53
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whatever4everNothing physical was taken in order to do this02:55
whatever4evernow you have me wondering02:55
whatever4everunless you count electrons as physical02:56
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SpeedEvilThe above howto is only duct-taping a RFID card to the n900 in a different form.02:58
LaoLang_coolNIN101: oh, I finally realize that `hal-device bme` is a cmd, thanks02:58
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jonwilwell that was easy04:01
jonwilJust cloned tablet-browser-view-test :)04:01
jonwilwhich is of value04:01
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jonwilsince it shows you how to use a tablet browser view widget04:01
jonwilwhich is nice because that widget does lots of the work for you04:03
jonwilincluding zoom and pan04:03
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LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: Thanks very much for your kind and your sdcv pkg for me :)04:08
merlin1991I've also uploaded it to the official repos, it's in extras-devel04:08
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: so cool!04:10
LaoLang_coolYup, I've found it04:11
jonwilI think I now understand pretty much everything there is to know about the microb browser and which stock packages use what part of microb04:13
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LaoLang_coolAny one could try to compile weechat for n900? www.weechat.org04:19
LaoLang_coolI prefer it much to irssi04:20
jonwiltutorial-home-applet uses browser-neteal to talk to the browser daemon. rtcom-messaging-ui does the same (although it claims to use tablet-browser-view it does not) and nokia-maps embeds the browser widget directly via browser-eal04:20
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: could you help once more please? :)04:20
merlin1991what do you need?04:21
psycho_oreoshe wants weechat04:22
LaoLang_coolCould you try to compile weechat for n900 please? It's a irssi like irc client but I like it more than irssi, its webpage is at www.weechat.org04:22
LaoLang_coolThe src can be fetched at
LaoLang_coolThe compiling method and dependents is at
LaoLang_coolThe must-have dependents are cmake and libncursesw5-dev, but for plugins work, it's better compiled with perl and python support.04:25
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jonwilok, now that tablet-browser-view-test is done, gotta figure out what to do next. I was thinking about clockd but its too complex04:32
jonwilsame for libtime04:33
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LaoLang_coolanyone using vim on n900?04:42
merlin1991only when I have too04:43
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: Don't know how to communicate the text with external app04:43
LaoLang_coolseems * and + failed04:43
LaoLang_coolIt has the feature, but I guess maemo doesn't use the x clipboard?04:44
merlin1991no maemo has some hildon-clipboard thingy04:44
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Guest40473kids these days dont even know what hildon is.04:49
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psycho_oreosits not that they don't know, its more like they won't research for themselves04:52
Guest40473tbqh nokia did basically dismantle their dev community...04:53
Guest40473took me 30 mins to find the docs on N9 and still have not found the forum.04:55
MohammadAGit was the plan from the start04:55
Guest40473qt mobility has api to get cellid, but04:55
MohammadAGfremantle, dismantle, coincidence? i think not04:55
Guest40473community are the only people who are going to document anything like digging neighboring cells out of the baseband04:55
Guest40473no community? shiny polished, dead, limited product04:56
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jonwilI doubt the baseband even exposes that information to the userspace05:09
jonwilwhy would it need to, the userspace doesnt need it05:11
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LaoLang_coolgot disconnected...05:14
LaoLang_coolI find the way, press shift, then drap the mouse, then xterm could copy the selection05:14
infobotLaoLang_cool meant: I find a way, press shift, then drap the mouse, then xterm could copy the selection05:14
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jonwilso anyone know of any control panel widgets that would be worth cloning?05:19
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DocScrutinizerneighbour cells... well seems virtually every Nokia phone since at least 1999 had some so called netmonitor that was accessible via special AT cmds and FBus/IrDA. Wouldn't feel surprised to learn it's still buried in BB5 cmt firmware05:26
DocScrutinizeralso you dunno what liblocation&friends *really* does, neighbour cells are friggin useful to get a location without GPS available05:28
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jonwilaha, NET_NEIGHBOUR_CELLS_REQ and NET_NEIGHBOUR_CELLS_RESP exist in the headers I have. But I have no way to know if those are functional in the N900 or not05:34
jonwilor how to call it given that we dont have headers for libisi05:36
psycho_oreosgrr this device is really pissing me off... is there any way to invoke bootmenu to run apart from having the keyboard slid out? I have tried numerous times in numerous ways to make the device get into bootmenu but it just refuses to. I've even reinstalled bootmenu and backupmenu which doesn't even seem to help05:37
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jonwilwhy cant you slide out the keyboard?05:37
psycho_oreosI have, done it many times but the device fails to even get into bootmenu05:39
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psycho_oreosmy other N900 work, except for this one05:39
jonwilok, it appears that the N900 does not have the right PN_NETWORK resource version to support NET_NEIGHBOUR_CELLS05:41
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robbiethe1stIs Bash installed?06:01
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psycho_oreosyou're not telling me that's a pre-requisite is it? *facepalms self if that were the case*06:03
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robbiethe1stMake sure sh is a symlink to busybox06:07
robbiethe1stalso, try remove --purge bootmenu and backupmenu, then reinstall06:07
psycho_oreosI'll check those, the device came out of a clean reflash (vanilla+combined)06:08
robbiethe1stHell, I don't know. I've never had any trouble myself when I got my new device, flashed it etc.06:09
psycho_oreosmine wasn't exactly new, for the 3rd device that is. Though I have had numerous troubles with this device06:11
robbiethe1stYou can try flashing a BM-installed rootfs...06:12
robbiethe1stthere's one on my website06:12
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psycho_oreosdefinitely going to give that a try if this still fails. Thanks06:13
luke-jr[20:35:20] <SpeedEvil> No PC is open. <-- mine is06:18
luke-jr[20:37:15] <jonwil> The "closed blobs" argument doesn't apply to ATI anymore <-- the only closed blobs argument ever was firmware, which is still closed afaik06:18
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Is the microcode open? Is the boot ROM inside the chipset open? ...06:19
luke-jrSpeedEvil: the software is.06:19
luke-jrSpeedEvil: considering OpenRISC for my next PC06:20
SpeedEvilThe software running on the CPU includes that which is run at boot, which is closed.06:20
luke-jrSpeedEvil: no, it doesn't, because that *isn't* running when I use it06:20
SpeedEvilAs far as you know.06:21
luke-jrI wish it were open though… it only boots like 20% of the time -.-06:21
luke-jrSpeedEvil: Linux would notice.06:21
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psycho_oreosrobbiethe1st, no dice, going to use that flashable image from your site: flashable_rootfs_v0.56-1-20101109.img06:34
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robbiethe1styeah, that's good06:34
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robbiethe1stit's compatible with all later BM versions, so... you can use it for chainloading your files06:35
psycho_oreoscool so you mean I can use it to restore compressed tarballs created by later BM versions? I was about to say with the filename, could it be that it contains a really old BM version06:36
Macerfaster package manager should seriously be the default06:36
robbiethe1stYeah; none of the important bits changed in later versions06:37
robbiethe1stJust mainly GUI stuff and extra features. File paths and contents are the same06:37
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psycho_oreostoo bad FAM lacks a few things like categorising programs in different categories, and it doesn't handle Ovi stuff well06:38
psycho_oreosrobbiethe1st, hmm ok06:38
psycho_oreosas long as I can hack it to make it support ext3 formatted emmc then I should be all good :)06:39
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Maceri swear i would love to know how nokia does its wifi07:29
Macerthe n900 wifi can go through 3ft lead across a room and up some stairs.. with my g2 i was happy to get a signal with the door closed07:30
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ShadowJKN9 supposedly performs more like g2 ;)07:41
Macerso... like crap?07:42
Macermargin call is a great movie07:42
Macer80% of the people were just laid off and he is sad over his dog dying07:43
Macercssu should make faster application manager the default07:46
ShadowJKwhen it doesn't screw up certain things? :)07:56
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LaoLang_coolI try to install an app via dpkg -i, but it says some depends missing, is there an option to let dpkg solve depends automatically?08:03
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LaoLang_cool_I got disconnected...08:12
LaoLang_cool_Anyone has helped me?08:13
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psycho_oreosanswer is no08:13
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: thank you08:13
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LaoLang_cool_merlin1991: thank you your weechat! it works fine08:18
LaoLang_cool_merlin1991: it would be better if it supports perl/python :)08:21
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LaoLang_cool_I think it can be uploaded to repo08:21
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Maceranybody know of a good silicon cover for an n90008:23
psycho_oreosotterbox case08:24
Macerdoes it slide?08:24
Macerto access the keybaord?08:25
Macernice. thanks.08:25
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Jef91Anyone know how I can get X running from a Debian Chroot on the n900?08:25
Jef91I've got a terminal of it, just not sure how to get X running08:26
psycho_oreosare you using easy debian?08:27
Jef91I installed with that yea08:27
Jef91but hitting the "lxde" option in the menu doesn't launch anything08:27
Maceramazon doesn't have any :(08:27
psycho_oreosJef91, that debian LXDE was supposed to launch debian chroot with X running. Though it takes a bit of time08:28
psycho_oreosMacer, I think they're getting quite rare now, otterbox may still sell them on their own site, if not there's always fleabay08:29
Jef91Yea it dumps out08:30
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Macerpsycho_oreos: what about the other company...08:31
psycho_oreosMacer, amzer? never heard. fyi otterbox case for N900 (commuter series) is not a silicon cover, the material used to make the case is some sort of ABS plastic08:33
LaoLang_cool_How to set x resource for xterm? I want to change its background/foreground08:34
Macerdoes tht look like an n900 in the pic? :)08:35
Macerpsycho_oreos: yeah i saw that. i will check their site otherwise i will get the amzer one08:35
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, under X Terminal, there's a blue down arrow, hit that and hit color08:35
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: LaoLang_cool_, under X Terminal, there's a blue down arrow, hit that and hit font08:36
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: nice, thank you, I wonder if maemo supports to set up in .Xdefault? seems it doesn't08:38
psycho_oreosMacer, I personally have tried two other cases for N900, but none is as superior as otterbox commuter series case for N900. After several times of removing N900 from the case and replacing it back into the case I never had its plastic tabs falling off. Had those plastic tabs falling off the fitting of the case back onto N900 would be very loose. Also from accidental dropping showed N900 in otterbox case showed no damage to either the case or the device, wh08:38
psycho_oreosereas my first clear case actually cracked08:38
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, don't know it might08:39
Jef91where does maemo keep it's .desktop files?08:40
psycho_oreosvarious parts of the filesystem, probably a good idea to issue a find on them08:40
Jef91how about easy debian?08:41
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psycho_oreosJef91, /usr/share/applications/hildon08:44
Jef91Got Enlightenment running on this thing finally08:46
Jef91Looks really slick08:46
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Jef91anyone know where easy debian saves it's settings to09:00
Jef91like things that would normally go in ~/ where do they go?09:00
psycho_oreossettings are saved into the image itself09:01
Macerhostmode easy now?09:03
jonwilI think Rule #1 of looking after a N900 is to ensure that you NEVER have the phone plugged into USB (data or charging) unless the phone is in a position where accidentally bumping the cable is not possible09:05
jonwilI make sure my N900 is never somewhere it can be knocked off with the cable plugged in09:05
Macerlol. me too. i put it on a velvet pillow09:08
LaoLang_cool_how to see ip? there isn't ipconfig cmd09:08
Maceri was going to try to use a duracell mygrid09:08
LaoLang_cool_oh, it's available when I'm root09:09
Macerand see if it were possible to put the microusb clip on without ruining the cam09:09
Maceri also have 2 batteries now heh09:10
Macerdoes hostmode work on the n900??09:10
Macerhomescreen dockbar?09:12
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psycho_oreoshostmode does work with N900 only if you have power kernel (at least version 46 iinm)09:14
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LaoLang_cool_what's the default password for root?09:22
LaoLang_cool_I'm trying to ssh into n900, but it needs root's passwd09:22
psycho_oreosdid you install sshd?09:23
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: yes09:23
xkr47LaoLang_cool_, I use rootsh09:23
LaoLang_cool_xkr47: nice!09:24
LaoLang_cool_rootme works09:24
Macerpsycho_oreos: well i will tell you how this case goes ;)09:28
Macerif it is any good i might get a couple more09:28
Maceri wish they had red ones still but they don't :(09:29
Macerwhat is home screen dockbar?09:29
psycho_oreosMacer, lol they're black by default and its the only colour. What's wrong with black anyway? N900 is black by default lol09:30
Maceroh i actually got a clear one09:30
Macerbecause that was one of the few ones in stock :(09:30
Maceri don't care about the color. i'm not really worried too much about drops .. if it takes 1 hit from a drop i'm happy and it has done its job09:30
Macerit's the minor scratches from common use that i can't stand09:30
Macerhumanity theme for maemo lol09:31
Macertoo funny09:31
Maceri am going through the faster app manager still installing apps... geez there are a ton of them09:31
psycho_oreosclear otterbox case?09:32
Macerno.. the other brand... i might get an otterbox too09:32
Macerjust as a backup09:32
psycho_oreosahh wait those clear crystal cases09:32
LaoLang_cool_what's the passwd for user? I try to ssh user@myip09:33
psycho_oreosyeah I've dropped it once I think and it cracked the screen portion of the crystal case.09:33
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, there's none09:33
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: but it fails if I simply hit enter09:33
Macerpsycho_oreos: yeah. i don't intend on dropping my n900 ;)09:33
LaoLang_cool_maybe user doesn't allowed to use sshd service?09:33
psycho_oreosI haven't heard of amzer but I bought this (somewhat cheap) generic one from the shops. Didn't last long though09:33
Maceri'm usually incredibly careful with my gadgets.. ever since the n810 cotastrophe09:34
Maceri'm still kicking myself for that one09:34
psycho_oreosMacer, I know I know.. neither do I (or most of us anyway), though accidents can and will happen :) the last thing you want is a broken N90009:34
Maceroh i agree.. but there is only so much that a case can do ;)09:34
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, no they're allowed, its just there's no passwd set.. you can set it via root however09:34
Macerif i were that paranoid i would get the aluminum boxwave armored case09:34
psycho_oreosMacer, indeed09:34
Macerhonestly i would get it now if it slid open09:34
Macerbut it doesn't :/09:35
Macerpsycho_oreos: these n900 accessories are geting more and more rare09:35
Maceri think i might actually purchase extra parts just in case09:35
Macerlike housings and keypads09:35
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: hmm, nice, it works!09:36
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: thank you!09:36
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psycho_oreosMacer, it is true that N900 accessories are getting rare.. I guess its really inevitable that accessories are only there when there's a huge demand for it.. though its really nokia for you in other sense09:37
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, nw09:37
LaoLang_cool_n900 is so cool!09:37
LaoLang_cool_for geek...09:37
psycho_oreosfor a linux user :P09:39
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: for a linux lover :P09:40
psycho_oreosN950 is even more cool than N900 had it been made available to the public09:41
LaoLang_cool_I hear that n950 is only available for developer09:41
psycho_oreosindeed, and that still is the case.. only for the selected developers09:42
LaoLang_cool_can't understand09:43
psycho_oreosN950 is still only for developers.. but nokia gave it out to developers which meets the criteria fit for nokia to hand them out. You can be a developer, no problems with that but if you cannot do the things that nokia for example requests you to do as a developer you're basically not fit for the task.09:47
Maceris there a usable sftp client for mameo?09:49
LaoLang_cool_I hope I can be a developer on someday :)09:49
psycho_oreosIf you're not fit for the task, you won't get N950 as a result09:49
Macergftp is still broken09:49
psycho_oreossshfs ftw09:49
Macerdoes sshfs work in maemo??09:50
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, unfortunately requests for N950 developer's device has long been closed09:50
psycho_oreosMacer, it does for me09:50
Macercan you show me an example syntax to mount?09:50
psycho_oreossshfs user@host:/remote/dir /local/dir09:52
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LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: oh...09:52
Macerusage: sshfs [user@]host:[dir] mountpoint [options]09:53
Maceroops.. awesome thanks... do i have to do it as root?09:53
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, they only had 400 N950 to hand out for Qt developers. Many applied in the first round (which only 350 were to be handed out), then they had a second round (which they only could send out 50)09:53
psycho_oreosMacer, no, if you do it means only root can access that mount point09:53
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: nokia has abandoned the development on meego, so I guess few developer would get intested in it09:55
Macerfuse: failed to open /dev/fuse: Permission denied09:56
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, that's beside the point, N950 is far superior than N900 in almost every way. The N950 were used by developers to port their programs into Qt so that N9 users can use it09:57
psycho_oreosMacer, hmm try as root then (which means you'll have to use root to see things and do transfers, etc)09:57
Macerthat sucks09:57
Maceri just wanted to copy and paste from filemanager09:58
Macermaybe i can set an acl on /dev/fuse09:58
psycho_oreosyou might be able to run that as root *snickers*09:58
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: sounds interesting, n900 is still ok09:58
psycho_oreosor stickybit.. suid :)09:58
Maceromg that is lame too09:58
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, not saying N900 is bad but N950 is rare and its cooler. I was one of the many candidates for the N950 devkit but failed to get shortlisted. Had I have N950 I wouldn't want N909:59
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: LaoLang_cool_, not saying N900 is bad but N950 is rare and its cool. I was one of the many candidates for the N950 devkit but failed to get shortlisted. Had I have N950 I wouldn't want N910:00
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jaskai wouldnt mind more ram for a n900 :|10:00
psycho_oreosjaska, virtually impossible10:00
jaskai know10:00
jaskawhich is why i am terminally angry at nokia10:00
psycho_oreosbecause of that? lol10:00
Maceromg that was ghetto10:00
Maceri changed the owner of /dev/fuse to user10:01
jaskapsycho: no, that and because i cant buy n950s :|10:01
Macerand it worked10:01
Macerlol! i feel ashamed10:01
psycho_oreosjaska, ahh yes that I completely agree.. rumour mills are reporting there's 1000s of N950 probably still lying in various warehouses around the world unused and unloved. Then there's rumours of heaps of N950 in nokia offices10:01
Macerdoesnt the n900 have "1GB"10:02
Macerwith nand swapping10:02
jaska768mb of swap does not count10:02
psycho_oreosMacer, 256MB RAM + 768MB Swap10:02
Maceryah. hence the "10:02
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Macerpsycho_oreos: thanks. sshfs works10:02
Maceri did it ghetto style10:02
Macerbut it works10:02
jaskawouldnt have changing the group on the device node to users and giving g+rw have worked?10:03
psycho_oreosMacer, glad it did10:03
psycho_oreosjaska, doubt it, user isn't in the group of root10:03
jaskapsycho: i meant changing the group of the device node to something user is part of.10:04
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jonwilwhy not just do it the simple way with chmod a+rw /blah10:05
jonwilbah, run out of things to do/clone/reverse engineer that are actually doable :(10:06
psycho_oreosjaska, ahh, but that's more or less similar to what Macer did anyway10:06
psycho_oreosisn't it chmod o+rw? *shrugs* I prefer octal :D10:06
Macermy way was horrible10:07
Macerfuse shou.d have created a grp and added user to it10:07
Macerthis is great tho. awesome using file manager to xfer across my wifi10:07
Macerwish file managr simply supported smb10:08
psycho_oreosit sort of does I think10:08
psycho_oreosthere's cifs support via extras-devel iinm10:08
psycho_oreosmaybe even kp might have it *shrugs*10:08
jonwilosso-systemui-tklock is too hard to clone, as are the browser ui bits, the connectivity widgets, and everything else worth cloning :(10:09
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Macerjonwil: welcome to where maemo failed10:18
Macer* open10:18
Macer* 30% open hardware 80% open software10:19
Maceryou would think there would be a rating system like that10:19
Macerisnt there some "open committee" ?10:20
psycho_oreosnon-existent by now I bet :)10:20
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LaoLang_cool_Has nokia stopped produce more n950?10:21
psycho_oreosthey've stopped it ages ago, it was meant to be for the public I bet before Flop came around10:21
LaoLang_cool_The following packages have been kept back:10:22
LaoLang_cool_  libsdl-mixer1.210:22
LaoLang_cool_Is it danger to upgrade it?10:22
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psycho_oreoswhat are you doing exactly?10:23
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: apt-get upgrade10:23
LaoLang_cool_A question, I'm tring to use n900 to ssh my pc, but my pc user name contains a space, how to ssh?10:24
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, I would personally advise against that.. even dist-upgrade10:24
psycho_oreosyou SSH via its IP address10:24
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: how to upgrade recommended? use app manager?10:25
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: ssh ip@ip?10:25
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, don't upgrade by hand, if there's an update for OTA stuff (like what nokia used to do) then use apt-get.. otherwise don't10:25
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, ssh user@IP10:26
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: but user is a string contains a space, say, "my user"10:26
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: don't upgrade by hand, then by what?10:26
LaoLang_cool_ssh my user@ip is wrong I guess10:27
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool_, linux or unix rather doesn't support usernames with spaces10:27
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: I'm on windows...10:27
psycho_oreosits probably got underscore (_)10:27
psycho_oreostry enclosing it in quotes10:27
psycho_oreosmaybe something like ssh "user@IP"10:28
psycho_oreosor ssh "user"@IP10:28
LaoLang_cool_psycho_oreos: "user"@ip works :)10:30
Maceris that for on the go cc theft?10:30
Macer:) sir.. you dropped your wallet! after reading all the cards10:30
Macerdoes maemo jabber support jabber channels?10:32
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petterion n900 it does10:36
Macerdoes it?10:37
Maceri should try it10:37
Maceri should make a jabber server heh10:37
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Macerno google+ clients for maemo?10:40
Maceropen media player? :)10:43
MacerMohammadAG: that kind of sucks10:43
Macerguess i will see how well it runs in the browser10:44
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Macerdoes cssu have a hotspot sompatible kernel?10:58
Macerdamn the maemo vkb is horrible11:01
MohammadAGCSSU doesn't ship a kernel11:02
MohammadAGmeego's kb is awesome11:02
Maceris there a meego kb for maemo?11:02
MohammadAGyes, but only for qt-components i think11:02
Macerit has to be awesome. there is no qwerty11:02
Macerno qwerty for n911:03
Macerand not enough n950s to allow the vkb to suck11:03
Macerok. i am installing like 100 pkgs :) best to charge this thing11:03
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Maceryou tell em us cellular!11:19
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Maceri wonder if i could turn my n810 into a server :)13:02
Maceri would have to install gentoo or something on it tho13:02
Macer:-/ or is there a straight debian distro for it?13:02
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* Macer has to do some research..i remember luke-jr going out of his way to run gentoo on it13:06
Macermaybe there is debian for it :) that would be nice... i want to use my n810 as a low powered server heh13:06
Macerwith its 128MB of ram13:06
Macerand 400MHz cpu13:06
MacerRAW... POWER13:06
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HRH_H_Crabive run gentoo on a P2 350 before.13:10
HRH_H_Crabi think i had more than 128MB though.13:10
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Macer128MB is good enough for most things13:11
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Maceri just want to run bind and httpd on it .. irssi.. stuff like that13:11
Macerlow powered stuff ... only a handful of users13:11
HRH_H_Crabthe machine this irc client is running on has 28MB13:11
Maceri wonder how well it can do it13:11
HRH_H_Crablinksys nslu213:11
Macerwell i have to find out information on how to install a full linux distro on the n81013:12
HRH_H_Crab211 days uptime13:12
Macerheh.. the n810 has its own ups ;)13:12
Macerthat lasts a very long time.. although i'm sure the battery is drained faster when dealing with a non-maemo distro13:12
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Macerbecause of bme problems that are always lingering13:12
Macerlet me look it up13:13
HRH_H_Crabwell all you need to do is figure out some way to shut itself down cleanly when it figures out the mains has gone...13:13
ShadowJKI wouldn't call it "bme problem" :P13:13
MacerShadowJK: heh.. isn't that where the meego people were having a ton of problems13:14
Maceras well as with mer13:14
Macerand anything else that ran on the n81013:14
Macern900 too i thought13:14
Maceri need a damn minisd adapter... i don't have one lying around13:15
ShadowJKit doesn't affect power consumption though13:15
Macermaybe it was cpu throttling that was the issue13:15
Macerthe cpu always ran full speed13:15
Macerwhen not running maemo?13:15
ShadowJKit's all about wakeups13:16
ShadowJKunder Maemo the cpu is stopped most of the time :P13:16
Maceromg. i have every sd adapter except micro to mini13:17
Macerwhy couldn't nokia just use a microsd slot for the n810?!13:17
Maceroh wait... it has 2GB internal doesn't it? hm.. that might be too small13:17
ShadowJKit didn't exist yet13:18
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Macerwell.. my mistake :)13:19
Maceri will order the adapter when i get a 32GB for my transformer13:19
Macerthen i can move the 16GB i have in it to my N900 and the 8GB from there to the N810 for debian13:20
Macerit is possible to intall debian onto the n810 right?13:20
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ShadowJKfor various definitions of "possible"13:22
Macerbare metal install13:22
Macerusing bootmenu to start it13:22
Macerand having all the necessary hardware for the server to work.. which i would guess would be the screen and keyboard13:23
Macerand wifi13:23
Macera small server is what i'm aiming for13:23
MacerX is unnecessary... console is13:23
Macerwhat makes it so great is if it does have problems i can just flip it open and use the screen and keyboard to find out why13:24
Macerand i would also like the screen to be able to turn off :)13:24
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Hurrianhmm, does the N900 need 15Kohm resistor for USB host mode?13:34
Hurriani hackjobbed a USB AF-AF adaptor13:34
Hurrianwait, lemme take a pic of my hackjob13:36
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Siceloif u diy the f-f adapter.. make sure it does correct crossing of the connections.. someone here bought one that didn't, and obviously wouldnt work13:37
Hurrianany diagrams?13:38
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Hurriani connected GND to GND, D+ to D+, D- to D- and VCC to VCC.13:38
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Hurrianhmm, i might have shorted something, but my usb hub works just fine13:40
Hurriani dont have a multimeter on me right now, so i can't check13:40
Hurrianyes the soldering is horrible, yes i used a boxcutter, yes i cut up an ethernet cable to do it13:41
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* jonwil is now knee deep in the "conversations" applet trying to figure out as much of the "secret things" that it does as possible13:45
nealjonwil: What's your long-term goal with respect to the reverse engineering that you are doing?13:46
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jonwilmultiple things, some of it is to give app developers more options and more things they can use in their apps13:47
jonwilsome of it is to create things the CSSU can play with and use13:47
nealfair enough13:48
jonwilThe messaging ui bit is to give anyone who might produce a replacement the info they need to make it do some of the important bits13:50
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nealdon't you think it would be better to use community developped APIs rather than Nokia-no-longer-supported APIs?13:52
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jonwilexcept that for many of these things there IS no viable community developed API13:53
jonwile.g. if you want to embed the web browser widget, you can either write your own widget embedding (takes time) or just embed a tablet-browser-view widget13:54
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jonwiland get all the hard parts (scroll, zoom and some others) done for you13:54
nealAnd WebKit doesn't have its own API for that type of thing?13:55
jonwilWebkit does but thats if you want webkit13:55
jonwilYou can embed a QT Webkit widget if you want13:55
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jonwilbut if you want Gecko, tablet-browser-view is the easy option13:55
nealWhat I mean is: wouldn't it be better to replace the proprietary bits with open bits that are maintained (even if not yet integrated into Maemo)13:56
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jonwilIf you were to replace the proprietary browser bits you would need to also replace the conversations app (which embeds a browser widget), the nokia maps app, the "getting started" app13:57
jonwilplus the flash plugin13:57
nealyes, that would be great :)13:57
jonwilits hard13:57
nealbut it seems more sustainable13:58
nealespecially given that maemo is abandonned13:58
jonwilThere are already open browsers for Maemo if you want them13:58
jonwilincluding Firefox mobile (aka Fennec)13:58
jonwiland I think at least one Webkit based option13:58
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jonwilbut you dont get flash13:58
jonwilor a bunch of other important things13:59
nealalthough flash never worked for me on the built in browser when I needed it13:59
Hurrianahahaha, fennec on maemo13:59
jonwilIf you think you can produce an open source flash plugin for Maemo, feel free to try.13:59
Hurrianit became pretty clear later on that they're not targeting maemo itself13:59
nealI don't use flash :)14:00
Hurriani really don't care for flash on mobile - after using ONLY a tab 8.9 for a few days, i learned that you don't miss much14:00
jonwilI think an open source flash plugin for embedded linux would be great, especially if it can "lie" to all those flash websites like Hulu that refuse to work on mobile versions of Flash14:00
jonwilbut hey, I dont know anywhere near enough about Flash to try such a thing14:00
Hurriani don't play games, youtube has device clients everywhere, and no more flash ads, just gif/jpg ads14:01
Hurrianjonwil: the desktop flash player is barely even worth using14:01
Hurrian*desktop open source14:01
jonwilyeah I know open source flash players suck unfortunatly14:02
jonwilI am surprised we havent seen more effort into such things14:02
Macerflash sucks14:03
Macerapple says so14:03
jonwilbut as long as web sites like YouTube keep using it, I have to keep using it14:03
jonwilWhat pisses me off are "web" developers who think designing the entire site in Flash is a good idea.14:03
Macerbut honestly.. it does suck14:03
jonwilFlash as a video player is ok.14:03
jonwilFlash for an interactive game is also ok.14:03
Macerthere are better options14:03
Hurrianok for the desktop, deffo not for mobile14:04
Macerbut if there is no need to change people wont change14:04
jonwilName a better option that runs on all the common browsers in use14:04
jonwilIncluding Internet Explorer 6.014:04
Hurrianwait, lemme rethink that14:04
Hurrianit depends really14:04
jonwilSilverlight is passable but its not cross platform14:04
Hurrianon mobile, you can pipe video stream and let the device software handle how to play it14:05
Hurriansw/hw accel, softsubs support, etc.14:05
Macerthat would require muxing14:05
Hurrianon mobile + flash, only flash needs to be optimized14:05
Macerwhich is not practical on a mob device14:05
Macernor practical for the server to mux14:06
jonwilThese days its not that hard to create a single H.264 video file that will play with the Flash plugin and through browser support on Android or on iOS14:06
Macerthe overhead would be too high14:06
Macerios wont do it14:06
Macerapple says no14:06
jonwiliOS wont do flash14:06
Macerunfortunately flash has become the commercial standard14:07
jonwilIf it doesn't do H.264 video in a web page, that's an epic fail for Apple given that it has nice fast hardware playback of such video clips and given that Apple has been pushing HTML5 so much14:07
Hurrianthe flash client is unresonably buggy14:07
Maceradobe has done a fine job of promoting it as well14:07
Hurrianthe only problem with flash is that it's buggy.14:08
Hurrianotherwise, it does everything it set out to do: multimedia content delivery14:08
HurrianAS3 is a pain to learn though14:08
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jonwilbtw, I recon the award for the worst ever use of Flash has to go to a PC game title that used a custom file format based on Flash for the game UI14:09
Hurrianjonwil, GTA4?14:09
jonwilnope, Command & Conquer 314:09
jonwiland some other games on related engines14:10
jonwilIts not flash although the files start out as flash files and then get converted through some (unfortunatly not released to the public) tools14:10
jonwilMy limited knowledge of Flash internals comes from reverse engineering this nightmare of a format14:10
Hurriani still think the worst use of flash was on banner ads14:11
jonwilThats why I run Adblock on this desktop PC14:12
nealDoes anyone have time to review my Woodchuck packages so they can go into extras?14:12
Hurriani mean, if you needed a hover effect, was it so hard to use an iframe of fixed size, then do .shittybannerad:hover{ background: url(14:12
Hurrianjonwil, the only device that doesn't run adblock is my android tablet14:13
Hurrianbecause i am opposed to the idea of blocking via hosts files14:13
Hurrianthat's simply stupid14:13
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nealthose are the two most important, but there are a few others :/14:14
jonwilI have no idea if my Gentoo box runs adblock or not (and if so which browsers it runs) but I dont use it to connect to the internet14:14
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Hurrianyou don't connect a gentoo box to the internet?14:14
jonwilwell to browser the web that is14:14
jonwilobviously I use emerge etc14:15
jonwilI use the windows PC for web browsing as a rule14:15
jonwilunless I am using gentoo so I can copy text from a web page or something14:15
Hurriani was gonna say 'use debian' if you leave it off the grid ;)14:15
jonwilI picked Gentoo because the "build stuff yourself" is fun :P14:15
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jonwilwell it isn't so fun when its taking the best part of 2 hours to emerge a large package like GCC or QT or KDE14:16
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Hurriani was using gentoo until i lost track of that cflags etc i'd set14:16
Hurrianso i cleaned house, and started using arch14:16
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Hurrianyes, the defaults are insecure14:16
jonwilgoing back to flash, I think RMS said that Flash is one of the most important "missing pieces" of open source software.14:17
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Hurrianbut then, why?14:17
Hurrianwhat on the internet is missing if you don't have it?14:17
Hurriansomething more important would be open source mobile drivers14:18
Hurrian(GPU, etc)14:18
jonwilyeah I would rank "open drivers for the PowerVR GPUs" as the #1 thing the mobile ecosystem is missing14:18
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Hurrianmost video sites nowadays have html5 options, and if you have enough cpu for flash, chances are you have enough cpu cycles for html5 video14:19
jonwilunfortunatly its just not possible to buy an ARM SoC with an open GPU in it14:19
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Hurrianjonwil, yeah, unfortunately, device manufacturers don't like to release code14:19
Hurriani mean, you can't upgrade anything so they just expect you to buy new device if you want newer software14:20
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jonwilas for why you need Flash, I cant find one off the top of my head but I see sites all the time that would be less usable without Flash14:22
Hurrianfor a regular user: facebook games, for one14:23
jonwileither way, Flash is here to say and rather than shunning it and hoping it goes away, trying to create an open source clone of the thing is the better option14:23
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jonwilhence GNU Gnash14:25
Hurrian...and lightspark14:26
jonwilI wish lightspark and Gnash and all the other free flash efforts would unify under a single effort14:28
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villagerI heard that Apple was working to make Flash go away a while ago, what happened with that?14:43
jonwilIt helped a little14:44
jonwilbut a lot of sites just kept the Flash and wrote an iOS specific app for iOS14:44
jonwilrather than redo their site14:44
villagerI see14:45
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Macermaemo needs working google contacts integration14:47
ZogGMacer there is some python app afaik14:49
Maceri think i tried that14:50
Macerit didnt work well14:50
Macerat least google voice integration downloads the gvoice numbers14:51
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merlin1991back to flash games, the fsckd cryengine uses flash for game ui15:00
merlin1991pita to edit15:00
merlin1991besides also beeing strictly directx that is the 2nd most disturbing fact about it15:00
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ZogGruskie, ping15:03
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ZogGruskie sup15:10
ZogGruskie, i'll pm you15:10
ZogGmay i?15:11
ruskiethat's what pms are for15:11
ruskieif I don't want to get them I'll put all PMs on ignore ;)15:11
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infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
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slonopotamushmm... my n800 runs 3.1 kernel15:28
ZogGslonopotamus, privet medved =()15:29
ZogGDocScrutinizer, ping15:29
slonopotamusZogG: who is on duty today?15:29
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DocScrutinizerZogG: pong15:30
ZogGDocScrutinizer i had a qurestion but it doesn't matter i think15:33
ZogGDocScrutinizer, how are you?15:33
ZogGslonopotamus duty?15:33
DocScrutinizerZogG: american or german answer?15:34
ZogGjewish =)15:34
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ZogGi would uderstand german if you say you feel shitty15:35
ZogGcoz it's only one15:35
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DocScrutinizerwell, you got the german answer already, so here's the american one: great!15:37
DocScrutinizerjewish I'm mostly lost, maybe: Happy to be alive!15:38
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DocScrutinizeror let me try better: I felt fine until you pinged me and told me "I got an unimportant question: how are you?" - now I ponder if I'm unimportant. (Dunno, I'm probably completely failing on jiddish humor)15:43
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DocScrutinizerunrelated comment: tmo -> #post1116491  just WTF for > 1 mio posts on that forum :-o15:59
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DocScrutinizer(don't bother about that particular post, it's just an example where I noticed it)16:02
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fredepIs there anyway to stream YouTube videos as just audio through my phone? At night I would like to listen to music, playlists, however, Adobe Flash is not very keen towards my little N900 Maemo powered device.16:14
fredepI was wondering if there was anyway, for me to easily implement it in the existing media player or so, or have a application / desktop widget that comes close to it.16:14
fredep(one that actually works)16:15
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fredepOr shall I have to implement it myself?16:16
SpeedEvilNot easily.16:17
fredepAnd if I would implement it myself, would anyone here consider there to be any demand for such an application?16:17
SpeedEvilI'd like it.16:17
fredepA backend that would implement YouTube video / audio streaming to the Maemo media player.16:17
SpeedEvilIt works best if you can run it on a seperate server.16:17
fredepI would consider developing it myself, but only, if there would be a demand for it.16:17
SpeedEvilThe ideal way would be something that detected a flash stream, jumped in the way of the negotiation, proxying this negotiation to a server.16:18
fredepI am looking for something that would stick to the ease and convenience of the existing media player, yet, have the possibility of viewing or listening to YouTube content through it, in the most optimal possible way.16:18
SpeedEvilThe server would then negotiate with the site, and do the transcoding, providing you with an audio only stream that gets fed into the browser.16:18
fredepSpeedEvil, I would like to keep it without a server, if I would turn this into a public application.16:18
fredepJust playing the audio, and hiding the video part, dirty hacky way, until Google implements ogg, is something I would stick to.16:19
fredepIt is dirty, it is hacky, but it works, and seems to be the only option.16:19
SpeedEvilI've not found a nice player that will play all flash streams well.16:19
SpeedEvilffplay is sort-of-the-least-bad.16:19
fredepThen I shall make it a quest to develop YouTube integration into the Maemo media player (I like things that integrate seamlessly into the existing Maemo applications).16:20
ShadowJKthe media player isn't modifiable :P16:20
fredepAnd I shall see to what extend, I will consider your server suggestion.16:20
SpeedEvilThat would be awesome.16:20
fredepI simply do not have the money to make such a server available.16:20
* ShadowJK is having issues viewing youtube even on desktop now16:21
ShadowJKdamn insolvable captchas16:21
fredepIf I could just set a YouTube playlist in the Maemo media player, and be able to click that play button on the desktop widget, and have it run through, that would be very neat.16:22
fredepPlay, and close my eyes, and sleep.16:22
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ShadowJKIf you go to and tap a video, it actually opens in the media player16:22
fredepAt the moment I try to use browser mode, but, whenever my N900 goes into inactive / sleep mode, the music stops playing as it tries to load the next video, until I open my N900, then it continues.16:22
ShadowJKbut youtube only serves low quality stuff on m.16:22
fredepThe low quality thing is good as far as I am concerned.16:23
fredephigh quality flash stuff will lag the N900.16:23
fredepConsidering how proprietary and closed source it is.16:23
SpeedEvilfredep: Attach charging cable, install simple-brightness-widget, and turn 'keep display on' on.16:23
ShadowJKand by low quality I mean 176x144 video and 32kbit/s audio ;p16:23
ShadowJKalso disable "javascript pausing" in browser16:23
fredepWhat does that option even do?16:23
fredepIt is set to 30 seconds, I left it like that because I have no idea what it actually does16:24
ShadowJKit stops javascript when display is off16:24
ShadowJKSo that if you leave a site open it doesn't suck your battery empty.16:24
fredepHm still, I am considering a more convenient solution.16:24
fredepBattery and all is not a problem.16:24
fredepIt is always plugged in when I am asleep.16:24
fredepNext to my bed.16:24
fredepJust need relaxing music as I fall asleep, and during sleep.16:25
SpeedEvilIt would be neat from a battery POV - youtube uses lots of power16:25
fredepWell regardless, the implementation I have in mind would still just grab the Flash content and deal with it in a certain way.16:25
fredepAnd I think the main point of process consumption, is that Flash content.16:25
fredepNot the actual website, right?16:25
fredepOr has YouTube began to provide some sort of ogg access / API / streaming?16:26
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DocScrutinizerwhat's status of youtube on iPhone now?16:27
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ShadowJKyoutube actively fights app developers :)16:27
fredepUh, did Apple not write an open letter about what they think about Adobe's Flash platform?16:27
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DocScrutinizerthat's why I asked16:27
fredepSteve Jobs, "New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.".16:28
fredepI hope they continue to fight against Flash.16:28
ShadowJKiphone doesn't and has never had flash. It has used an app for youtube16:28
fredepAnd hopefully, this will convince Google to focus on Theora for YouTube.16:28
fredepAs they are very open minded using free things on other platforms (XMPP with Google Chat, etc.).16:28
ShadowJKIf theora wasn't so damn bad.. and if google didn't already have that vp8 thing, whatever it was called16:28
fredepFrom what point of view would Theora be bad?16:29
dzhooddly enough, many entities seem able to make their websites useable on iOS devices.16:29
fredepSo far, I have never really seen any trouble with it.16:29
dzhowhen I access them with microb, though, I get this guff about needing to have flash.16:29
fredepThe freedom is there, and the compression does not seem that bad.16:29
dzhoa ver fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu   moment16:29
infobotdzho meant: a very fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu   moment16:29
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* dzho shrugs16:30
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* infobot shrugs too16:30
* fredep goes to check out Maemo development documentation for basic development concepts.16:30
fredepOh, Maemo SDK, even better. :316:31
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fredepIs the Maemo SDK entirely free?16:31
fredepIt might even be included in my distribution's repositories if that would be the case.16:32
fredepWell, that is just, swell.16:32
SpeedEvilThere are closed binaries from nokia in it.16:32
ShadowJKI guess if you don't agree to the EULA you don't get the binaries?16:32
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DocScrutinizeryes, exactly16:33
dzhofredep: I know how you feel.16:33
fredepYeah, SpeedEvil as soon as my eyes crossed that "Nokia Binaries" part I started to doubt how free the SDK would be.16:33
fredepWhich made me quickly question it in here.16:33
ShadowJKi don't think you actually need any of them16:33
DocScrutinizerand I remember some weird stuff with placing an individual token/cert whatever somewhere in SB to get access to those binaries via apt-get16:34
ShadowJKmostly for the "emulator" part I'd think?16:34
fredepWell, regardless, I do not think there is a free Maemo SDK alternative, is there? It would be nice if I could just aptitude install thatmaemofreeshit on my distribution.16:34
fredepI use Trisquel (, which is basically Ubuntu with all the non-free shit thrown out.16:34
dzhofredep: it remains a dream, I think16:34
fredepWell, if those non-free things are not really a dependency, I do not see how hard it would be to repackage it, without them, and throw it on the web.16:35
* SpeedEvil lols.16:35
dzhofamous last words "how hard could it be?"16:35
ShadowJKdude it's scratchbox, nothing is easy16:35
fredepI have no experience with Maemo development, although I am interested, so excuses for any ignorant statements.16:35
fredepAt first sight.16:35
DocScrutinizerdu -hs /scratchbox -> 5.3G16:36
fredepBut I am going to familiarise myself with the available documentation at
dzhofredep: I think the most optimistic thing one could say about all this is that there remain huge opportunities :-)16:36
fredepIt being free is not that much of a priority, at least if I can make the applications I build for it, available under a free license.16:36
dzhoand that's how we get to the point of having many almost-free solutions16:36
fredepThen I am happy.16:36
ShadowJKfredep, so when they created the "SDK", they first kidnapped a linux guy, a windows guy, and a steve jobs clone. Then they put them in specially designed chairs that constantly measure their level of disgust, pain and fear. The SDK was then carefully designed to produce the strongest disgust,pain and fear sensations in all 3 test subjects.16:37
ShadowJKor well, scratchbox was16:37
fredepI read some post about somebody loving N9 / W7 on, what the fuck was that about?16:37
fredepWhy would anyone think I want to read shit about Windows Phone on
SpeedEvilN9 is like n900 with all the ponies taken out.16:37
fredepCan anyone just post bullshit they like at the news section?16:38
fredepWhere do I report for removal. >:316:38
SpeedEvilclick the down-thumb.16:38
ShadowJKI think it's based on votes16:38
infobothmm... tmo is, or trolls, morons, oxes16:38
fredepThe WP7 entry is already gone.16:38
ShadowJKSo it's like a collection of random people's RSS feeds16:38
fredepI see.16:38
vdvin qtcreator, i create a new mobile app, but i'm unable to select maemo/fremantle as target, is that normal? in screenshot from the tutorial it's shown16:39
DocScrutinizer[2011-11-05 14:59:55] <DocScrutinizer> unrelated comment: tmo -> #post1116491  just WTF for > 1 mio posts on that forum :-o16:39
DocScrutinizeryou bet you see *all* $random staements and noise/BS in >10^6 posts16:39
fredepI hope Maemo lives on for a long time, and Nokia should just release N900 blueprints considering they fuck up everything so other companies can continue with the N900 spirit if my N900 would ever die (hopefully, it will never die).16:39
fredepI do not like N9, WP7 nor MeeGo (MeeGo, only having see the visual interface, put me off at first sight).16:40
dzhomay your usb port remain strong and true16:40
ShadowJKwhich visual interface16:40
fredepIs there a default way to take a screenshot of your Maemo environment?16:40
ShadowJKctrl-shift-p, iirc16:40
fredepThe general MeeGo interface.16:40
ShadowJKfredep, are you talking about N9?16:40
fredepN9, WP7 device, yes.16:41
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fredepBut that is no MeeGo.16:41
fredepI am not sure if anything is MeeGo to be honest.16:41
psycho_oreosN9 is not a WP7 device16:41
fredepWith what has happened.16:41
fredepIt is not?16:41
ShadowJKN9 is more like Maemo 6 Harmattan.. which marketing calls MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan... which is different from "real" MeeGo..16:41
psycho_oreosand if its a WP7 device, you'd see the infamous windows logo on the bottom of the screen16:42
fredepI only really read the news about what Nokia is doing, I never really got down to what actually happens behind the scenes regarding Maemo, or MeeGo, I just skimmed through little bits, of guides being available to MeeGo your N900, and all.16:42
fredepI see.16:42
fredepBut one thing I do know is, I love my N900, I love Maemo, and if my N900 would die, I can only hope I could get it somewhere new (dislike second hand).16:43
fredepN900 spoiled me rotten.16:43
* ShadowJK has two N900, in case the infamous USB port decides to eject itself, or in case the modem stops working16:43
fredepThat actually is a bright idea.16:43
* psycho_oreos has three16:43
fredepBuying a few and stocking them on the attic. :x16:43
ShadowJKMy N900 #1 died the modem death16:44
ShadowJKaka "Crossed out SIM icon" death16:44
fredepI have had my N900 since 2009 I believe, still working fine to date.16:44
fredepWith the exception of the recharger cable breaking down.16:44
fredepAnd having lost the touch pen. :L16:44
fredepIt works fine. x316:44
psycho_oreosShadowJK, I suppose you could have used that N900 as just a pure internet tablet, like 770, N8x0 series16:45
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fredepShadowJK, how did that even happen, you are scaring me with these stories. =(16:45
fredepWhat did you do to get broken SIM slot?16:45
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* fredep hugs his N900 and whispers, "do not worry, it is all just mythological, do not listen to him"16:46
ShadowJKIt's not the sim slot breaking, it's probably the modem desoldering itself or something like that16:46
ShadowJKor silicon rot16:46
fredepDid you overclock it or do anything special?16:46
fredepHm, neat, did not know about the screenshot taking feature.16:47
fredepShould take some screenshots in a bit when I got my desktop ready. :316:47
psycho_oreosI thought changing the SIM card numerous times could have affected the SIM slot16:47
ShadowJKIt's not a problem with the sim slot16:47
fredepDoes anyone know where you can still buy new N900 devices.16:47
psycho_oreosahh its the actual modem16:47
fredepI really feel like getting another one just in-case.16:48
fredepOr two...16:48
ShadowJKfredep, they're not made anymore16:48
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fredepYeah, but certain stores might still have some on stock.16:48
ShadowJKi think Macer ordered one from hongkong on ebay16:48
SpeedEvilFairly unlikely.16:48
psycho_oreoseven if they do they may not be available locally or have their own websites16:48
fredepOr is the Nokia N9 not that bad?16:48
ShadowJKno it's bad16:48
SpeedEvilIt's been ~6mo since they stopped selling it at all.16:48
fredepAmazon has some new ones available.16:49
fredep(US Amazon)16:49
* fredep checks Amazon UK16:49
ShadowJKN9 has no keyboard, has no bluetooth keyboard support, and it has the security nazi framework to prevent you from installing stuff and modifying stuff :D16:49
fredepOh wow.16:49
fredepYeah, you convinced me at the "has no keyboard" part.16:49
psycho_oreosif you'll excuse the lack of hardware keyboard, the no microSDHC slot and no interchangeable batteries. The N9 may just be slightly superior if you could somehow bypass aegis (maybe with running real MeeGo for instance)16:49
fredepOne of the most important things to me is the keyboard.16:49
fredepThe software turning out to be so lovely, was an extra.16:50
ShadowJKIf aegis didn't exist I might consider buying N9, just to put in the drawer as backup for the day that both my N900 have died :/16:50
fredepThere are two new N900s available on Amazon.16:50
fredepOne store just launched, do not really trust.16:50
fredepAnother store has 100% positive feedback from 18 entries.16:50
ShadowJKBut really, right now N9 has too much "fuck you" attitude towards the consumer that I'm not at all interested16:50
DocScrutinizerand who was the first to warn you all about "aegis is hell spawn"?16:51
fredepDoes anyone else think, Nokia, really, really, fucked up, on such a significant scale, by ditching the N900?16:51
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SpeedEvilfredep: Nope.16:51
fredepWhy not?16:51
psycho_oreosIf N9 did have hardware keyboard, I wouldn't have hesitated in buying one. The rest of the issues I could sort of shrug it off.. but without hardware keyboard it pisses me off.. and no bluetooth keyboard support is pure fail16:51
fredepI think it is a godly device.16:51
SpeedEvilThe fuckups started about 3 months into the n900s sales.16:51
SpeedEvilWith the ovi store screwups.16:51
fredepSure, it is a high priced device, but the money I spent on it, all worth it.16:51
psycho_oreosand that N900 was released late16:52
fredepYeah, well, those are things that could have been prevented.16:52
fredepBut dumping it, instead of fixing it,...16:52
psycho_oreosno hostmode out of the box by default16:52
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psycho_oreosthat's Flop for you16:52
SpeedEvilElop wasn't the problem.16:52
SpeedEvilIt went wrong well before Elop.16:53
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psycho_oreosFlop basically was hired and he killed maemo platform, killed symbian (almost). Then N950 was crippled and given free to selected developers whilst the rest gets N9. Cripples N9 and sells it in certain countries. Makes WP7 device that looks very similar to N916:54
psycho_oreosnokia board of directors were smoking crack. They wouldn't give two shits anyway16:54
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fredepWell no matter how much they fucked up with N900 / Maemo, I still really love it to this day.16:54
fredepI really was a Samsung guy (liked the way their models looked), not really too fond of Nokia, but then the N900 came along, and I liked it a lot, the design, the keyboard, the software, and got it, regardless of the price tag.16:55
Guest40473im just waiting for tizen/samsung to bring desktop linux back to phones.   or meltemi.16:55
fredepSo do you guys think it would be a good idea to buy one of the last available new N900s from Amazon?16:56
Guest40473or ubuntu to magically get partners, like they didnt manage with tablets.16:56
fredepThere is only one left from a reliable store on Amazon UK.16:56
Guest40473fredep: i like mine, bought recently.16:56
fredepI do not give a shit about the 400 pounds price tag.16:56
fredepWell, I have an N900 too.16:56
Guest40473it just baarely replaced my n81016:56
fredepBut, one day it might die...16:56
fredepI want it again.16:56
fredepI have had my N900 since 2009.16:56
ShadowJKthough I guess the real attraction of having desktop linux on phone is that a) you can have all the apps you need, b) when the manufacturer abandons the device, it's not a 14-man-month task to get the browser back to compatibility with facebook again :P16:57
fredepAnd, I would be lost if it would die on me.16:57
Guest40473im not sure it's *that* nice.. :P16:57
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ShadowJK: what are the top screwups hw side on N900 design on your list, I mean what are the things Nokia shall fix on a N900i ? (please no major changes! So no "get multitouch" etc)16:57
fredepIt iisssss.16:57
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Guest40473i would have preferred the n900 hardware in an 810 form factor16:57
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psycho_oreosI wouldn't know if amazon sellers do sell N900 new or is it some sort of `technically new' term16:58
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, they could fix the USB. Clock battery. Figure out why the modem dies, or put in a new one. Refresh to latest omap3, gigabyte of memory.16:58
psycho_oreosor if there's just scammers16:58
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: good list, thanks16:58
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: or if they're just scammers16:59
Guest40473'new' as in unopened maybe.17:00
psycho_oreosor unused, but the case was opened and resealed to make it look like new :þ17:00
Guest40473or that.17:01
psycho_oreosor probably used once or twice before it was cleaned up and put back into the case, and resealed17:01
Guest40473if n900 dies, i'll just go back to tablet+phone.17:02
fredepHas anyone ever considered purchasing the N900 schematics and rights off of Nokia?17:02
fredepOr has nobody ever gone that extreme?17:02
Guest40473only get a nice new linux tab, instead of n81017:02
psycho_oreosfredep, you can download a leaked copy of the schematics17:02
fredepNo, no.17:03
fredepI am actually thinking, of legally, buying them, community improving them, and open it up for manufacturers to freely manufacture them.17:03
ShadowJKSomething liek a gta04 for N900 would be interesting ;p17:03
psycho_oreosconsider forking out millions, if not billions17:03
DocScrutinizerfredep: schematics are available. Buying the rights is sth nobody ever done I guess17:03
fredepYeah, I considered that.17:03
fredepBut I also considered, if somebody before me, thought about it, and gotten anywhere with that idea.17:04
ShadowJKN900 also has some nokia-only parts that a) are not made anymore b) they dont sell to third parties anyway17:04
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DocScrutinizerfredep: also you won't get BB5 modem that simply, esp in a range of 100 < N < 100.00017:05
fredepIf that would be possible, if somebody could pull it off, rebrand it, turn it both, hardwarematically and softwarematically, into a fully free device, for any manufacturer to develope, manfacture and distribute (under the license of sharing alike, maintain the freedom, that was given to you, in your derivative work), then that would be one wicked collaboration started right there.17:05
DocScrutinizeror what ShadowJK said :-D17:05
fredepYou do not need any of the hardware that it holds.17:06
psycho_oreosfredep, there were talks about that at numerous stages in both this chan and on the tmo threads. However nobody has done anything considering its not an easy job let alone finding a decent manufacturer which won't charge you an arm and a leg17:07
fredepIf you could just obtain the rights and schematics, and open up a community collaboration to change, replace and improve the existing schematics, and open it up for manufacturers to freely manufacture it, that would do.17:07
DocScrutinizerfredep: oh not?17:07
Guest40473i dont think it would be worth it. n900 hardware is fairly limited. everything is licensed17:07
fredepI would not even envision being able to pull that off with simple email communications.17:07
Guest40473contrast with freerunner neo17:07
fredepYou would actually have to know some people within Nokia, and go down to Finland.17:07
Guest40473can n900 run hostapd?17:07
fredepI had a Neo Freerunner once, did not like it, software and hardware, were inconvenient to use.17:08
Guest40473but, it is a much more open platform17:08
fredepThe thought about the freedom was nice, the usability, as a device to use daily, was lacking, and was not something that could be quickly turned over.17:08
ShadowJKGuest40473, most of the circuit board components can actually be purchased, except for the modem17:08
Guest40473n900 was just a 'good enough' platform that received sponsorship and attention from someone in to make a buck17:08
DocScrutinizerfredep: let developer of neo FR tell you it won't fly17:09
fredepWhat wont fly?17:09
psycho_oreosopen N90017:09
fredepMy Neo FreeRunner could fly.17:09
ThreeMneo freerunner17:09
fredepAlthough it did not have a measurement application of how high it went like my N900.17:09
psycho_oreosI'd hate to see what happens if you manage to not catch the device once it lands17:10
psycho_oreos*smash* oh sh*t17:10
fredepTo be honest I just giggled and moved on when I saw that application in the repository.17:10
fredepI thought it was some Nokia incentive to break N900's so more would be purchased. :V17:10
fredepI did not have any crazy urges to install that and throw my N900 up as high as I could. :317:11
psycho_oreosI think that program was curiously questioned and I think it was sort of an unanimous conclusion that it was mainly for those who do skydiving with their N90017:11
DocScrutinizeras you can see from my prev post (>>[2011-11-05 15:57:16] <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: ShadowJK: what are the top screwups hw side on N900 design<<) I'm pondering a different approach right ATM17:11
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DocScrutinizerindeed N900fly can measure height of jumps as well17:13
DocScrutinizer or how deep you jumped (by multiplying the value by 2)17:14
DocScrutinizerwon't work for skydivers though as on reaching steady speed there's no free-fall state anymore17:14
Guest40473biggest hardware screwups.  no usb-host mode, closed baseband, no driver support for wifi ap-mode, no electronic compass or gyroscopes.17:14
DocScrutinizerok, thanks. next17:15
psycho_oreosGuest40473, no driver support for wifi ap-mode is not nokia's fault directly, its more of Ti's fault which was concluded by a few tmo members that its a firmware bug that prohibits AP mode17:15
Guest40473ofono patches were nice, but not 18 mo later and still in a state no one can use.17:16
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Guest40473that makes it Nokia's fault for going with that chip17:16
DocScrutinizerhostmode: FIXED, baseband: WONTFIX, wifi: WONTFIX, compass and gyro... errr17:16
psycho_oreosGuest40473, wl1271 (on N950/N9) has AP mode but wl1251 (on N900) doesn't ironically. Ti never bothered to fix their shit.. just like that ACX1XX case with linux17:16
Guest40473im not sure i can think of another hardware 'screwup'17:17
Guest40473no 2mm nokia charging jack :P17:17
Guest40473kickstand blows, n810 much better17:17
psycho_oreosin fact we should be a little more thankful that nokia at that point in time hired K. Valo to write up a linux driver support for wl1251, otherwise we'd probably be stuck with some proprietary Ti blob with even less features17:18
Guest40473n810 generally had a superior feel in hand. the 3" formfactor was a mistake in n90017:18
DocScrutinizerwell, that's not what I was asking at least17:19
DocScrutinizerI'm more about to wonder how many devices it needs to reach break even on ramping up manufacturing line again17:20
fluxbtw, are there QtQuick-able Qt binaries around for n810?17:20
Maceri guess i should be thankful there is a google voice plugin at all17:20
Macerbut wow is it horrible :)17:21
Macerdoes it just poll for new txts?17:21
Macerand is there a way to disable the talking features?17:21
* DocScrutinizer wishes konttori was around17:21
Macerand only use it for txting? :)17:21
Macergvoice is just as bad as a power whore as skype is on this n90017:22
Macerit is totally murdering the battery17:22
yigalis anyone has anyone set up Monav both client and daemon.  I have a VPS that I'm thinking of using to preprocess certain maps as a daemon and of course use the client for routing but I was wondering if anyone had experience doing this?17:22
Guest40473really? you mean theonering plugin?17:22
Guest40473im not sure i've noticed any problems with it17:22
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Guest40473i keep it in 'away' status constantly17:22
Macerdoes keeping it in "away" allow you to receive txts still while turning off the call features?17:23
Macertheonering plugin? :)17:23
Guest40473no, but it saves battery life (per the instructions)17:23
luke-jrMacer: I repurposed my N810 to a GPS/Wifi mapper17:23
DocScrutinizerMacer: this kind of IM apps with presence and whatnot always tend to cut thru your battery, just skype is the worst of all due to even abusing your device as a relay, by skype design17:24
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MacerGuest40473: instructions?17:24
Macerwhere are they?17:24
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MacerDocScrutinizer: gtalk seems to do rather well on the n90017:27
Macercompared to gvoice17:27
Macernot to mention the way the gvoice plugin adds things to your contacts17:28
Macerif a contact has a phone number... gvoice adds "call and sms" options... and when you use the sms option... the person's number is only displayed and not their contact icon or name17:28
Macerunless you merge it17:28
Macerthen you have "google voice IM" added to the contact17:28
Macerthis seems rather redundant17:28
DocScrutinizersorry can't comment, I use SIP and proper high quality GSM calls only, as voice is a premium service for me and I'm not interested in using shitty g* (also it starts with g* ;-P, like gmail, gconf, gnome...)17:29
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nealDocScrutinizer: haha17:30
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DocScrutinizerI basically can call via proper plain old telephone to any location on this earth for as little as 1ct/min, why should I be interested in using flaky inferior quality services17:31
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DocScrutinizeron mobile I'm at ~10ct/min but then on mobile it's neigh impossible to get good quality via those "free" services like skype etc17:33
DocScrutinizerso again, whyt's the use of that crap?17:33
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ZogGhey anyone knows program in C working with dbus, want to check code17:46
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nealZogG: What do you want to do?17:48
nealZogG: You could check Woodchuck:
nealZogG: It does a lot with dbus17:48
ZogGneal all i need to send dbus signal from my app with data17:49
ZogGactually i want to display something on rds17:49
ZogGi would be glad if you can help me17:49
nealwhat are 'rds'?17:49
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ZogGneal it's the radio display17:50
nealzogg: Look at around 41517:50
ZogGi have more stupid question17:50
ZogGwait, i'll trying to find answer myself =)17:51
ZogGneal i'm compiling it with makefile17:52
ZogG1st time i do it manually, or even truly i use one from other program my based on..17:53
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ZogGall mentions i see of libs are in main.c with include blah blah blah17:54
ZogGwhen i add dbus it doesn't give me to compile17:54
ZogGmy mistake17:54
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ZogGneal around here?18:01
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nealZogG: What do you mean?18:01
ZogGlet me post it18:02
ZogGneal you see dbus part?18:03
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nealyou're missing a space between:  $(DBUS_LDFLAGS)$(OBJECTS)18:03
ZogGPackage dbus was not found in the pkg-config search path.18:04
ZogGPerhaps you should add the directory containing `dbus.pc'18:04
ZogGto the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable18:04
ZogGNo package 'dbus' found18:04
MacerDocScrutinizer: lmao! i use it for txting18:04
Macerbecause unfortunately most women do not want to use gtalk on their iphones :-P18:04
nealZogG: do you have the dev packages isntalled?18:04
Macerthey would rather pay an extra $10-20 for unlimited txts which still rake in like 50000% profit to the network charging them for it18:04
ZogG$ locate dbus.h18:05
ZogGneal, ^18:05
Maceri refuse to pay for txting women when i'm already paying for dinner18:06
Maceri wish maemo had G+ sharing :/18:07
Maceri suppose it DOES have a picasa plugin18:07
ZogGneal i think so18:07
Macerand now the plugin has made gvoice contacts again18:09
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Macernow i have to rm all these fking gvoice contacts18:12
* DocScrutinizer stutters "backup" while laughing18:15
ZogGneal ?18:16
vdvi'm trying to launch qt project in simulator from qt sdk, but get following: Assertion »intel->is_g4x || (tile_x == 0 && tile_y == 0)« failed. Is it related to OpenGL?18:18
MacerDocScrutinizer: well.. it works fine on an android phone :)18:23
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ZogGneal, i think i figured it out, can you check something?18:47
nealseems ok18:48
ZogGneal the part of sending is right?18:48
nealit's a bit strange18:49
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nealyou want the name of your signal to be something like "artist"18:49
nealand have it carry a payload18:49
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nealmaking the name of the artist the payload is unusual18:50
nealand likely unusable18:50
nealif the number of values that artist takes on is large18:50
nealyou like want to do dbus_message_append_args18:51
nealwhoops, sorry about the double paste18:51
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fredepNom nom.18:55
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hakkattakknice theme fredep19:04
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Guest40473"Setting of presence: Available, Away (check for messages less often), and Do Not Disturb (disables in-bound phone calls) "19:06
Guest40473"Basic features:19:06
Guest40473    Support for GV Contacts w/ names19:06
Guest40473        Can be disabled by setting the contact polling time to -1 "19:06
fredepI am using erm.19:06
Guest40473i think it was a changelog entry that first was like: "yo dog, set your status to away and battery consumption will suck less"19:06
fredepArray theme and AwOken icon theme, both available in the regular repository.19:06
fredepThen I am using the following background:
fredepWhich, would result in the above desktop.19:07
fredepOh, yeah, I modified the background, I opened it in GIMP and put the mode on grey scale, and saved it.19:08
fredepThat is all.19:08
fredepI also modified theme settings to change the (in my opinion), not so pretty green on Active Text to blue, and using fast window transition (why is this not used by default??, not only prettier, but also faster window transition).19:09
Guest40473Macer: there we go   a 'feature' in the apt-cache show description. just about as close to 'does what it says on the box' as you can get19:11
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fredepCould anyone tell me, why the option which theme customiser provides, "Faster window transition", is not enabled by default in Maemo CSSU?19:20
fredepIt is faster, and prettier.19:20
fredepIs it perhaps unstable or so?19:20
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Robot101I'm sure its not more unstable - in the run up the N900 release the product managers were changing their mind about the transition speeds / timings / effects / etc every day19:48
Robot101which is why we made transitions.ini in the end19:48
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ZogGneal changed it but still not sure =) used examples here and there to understand19:59
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Rioting_PacifistI keep getting the error "SU_GET_UPDATE_STATUS_REQ terminated with error code 1", when trying to flash the VANILLA image, it looks like the n900 is just booting up and not going into flashing mode , is there any way to fix that?20:39
andre__which OS? with which command?20:42
Rioting_Pacifistlinux kubuntu 64bit flasher-3.520:47
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Rioting_Pacifistdon#t have an alternative os to use but it definelty looks like the phone is just booting up not in flash mode20:48
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_rdMy GPS takes a long time to get my location on the n900, although I enabled cell tower positioning with the server.21:03
_rdIs anybody else seeing this, did the server name change or do I even have broken hardware?21:04
NIN101afaik some people changed to afer some issues...21:07
Rioting_Pacifistany ideas for ways to to a emmc flash without using plain flasher as it keeps failing?21:08
bindiyup21:08 no workie21:08
bindifixed with
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Rioting_Pacifistcan i get root on an n900 without installing anything?21:26
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Guest40473attach USB cable, use nokia flasher to --enable-rd-mode21:38
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Guest40473then you can run sudo gainroot on stock tablet21:38
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Guest40473otherwise you must install one of the several simple gainroot scripts from the repos21:38
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NIN101Rioting_Pacifist: seems the guy in this thread had the same problem and it was solved.21:39
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Rioting_Pacifistthanks Guest40473, turned that on now hopefully if flashing fails i can just format the mmc as required from the rootfs21:44
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Guest40473no probs. keep in mind R&D mode may increase battery useage by eg:disabling the processor watchdog, extra blinking lights, etc.21:48
Guest40473might want to --disable-rd-mode & install rootsh from extras when you're done.21:48
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Rioting_Pacifistok now i broke initfs \o/ google is failing me is there an easy way to flash nolo to pass the default initfs to the kernel?21:55
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NIN101initfs && maemo?21:59
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Rioting_Pacifistwhen it boots it says no initfs \o/ then froze but it seems to be booting now, perhaps meamo doesn't have an initfs thats what the \o/ is for?22:01
NIN101it hasn't.22:03
Rioting_Pacifistseems to have booted I'll run through that fix you found thanks22:03
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Rioting_Pacifistis the main memory in the screen or the keyboard half of the n900?23:02
Guest40473keyboard, i'd be sure.23:03
Guest40473screen's going to be only display/digitizer module, sensors, speaker & possibly an antenna.23:04
Guest40473*forget that, antenna's are all going to be in the plastic main body. unlikely any are crammed around that thin top part23:05
SpeedEvil'all' the circuitry is in the base.23:06
Rioting_Pacifistthanks, it's just that my problems started when i started switching screens and now it seems nothing can read the main memory at all23:09
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SpeedEvilBy main memory, do you mean the EMMC?23:17
RiotingPacifist`SpeedEvil: yes sorry keep dropping off due to bad conenction23:20
SpeedEvilThere was someone who was writing a FAQ on how to get your n900 working again from SD - I don't think they've got it quite finished yet.23:21
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RiotingPacifist`wait after a whole day of trying evrything i switched the screens work and BAMM it flashed and is now working :D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D thanks to everybody who helped Guest40473 NIN101 SpeedEvil and anybody who tried to help when i got dropped due to rubbish wifi i love you guys! :D:D:DD23:36
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