IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-11-04

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trumeeDocScrutinizer: right, but isnt KP independent of multiboot?00:00
DocScrutinizeryou are trying to force your system into bricked state and complain it doesn't work00:00
DocScrutinizerNO, IT IS NOT00:00
trumeethis seems to be ok, apt-get -s  install multiboot-kernel-power kernel-power=1:2.6.28-10power47 kernel-power-modules=1:2.6.28-10power4700:01
rlySicelo: it says that HAM is running, please exit it and press enter... but it isn't running.00:01
rlyWhat is the binary name of HAM?00:02
rlyThen I can just do killall and be sure it is done.00:02
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Sicelodon't kill it if u are installing cssu. iirc it says it takes a while00:02
Sicelotrumee: it is worth your while to take it as said. unless u want to re-flash00:04
rlySicelo: I also read something about being able to use 720p filming on the device. Is that hoax?00:05
rlya hoax?00:05
Siceloapparently not. but i don't use my device for videos, so idk. haven't tried00:06
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rlyDoes anyone know which package enabled 720p filming?00:07
DocScrutinizerHAM running? wait til it finished00:07
DocScrutinizercan take 5..10 min00:08
rlyDocScrutinizer: did that and the upgrade worked, but now it is just apparently doing nothing.00:08
rlybrowserd uses 98% cpu again.00:09
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rlyCan I kill that one?00:09
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DocScrutinizercheck your CPU load - as long as some apt-worker is pushing CPU to 100% yu want to wait for it finishing00:09
DocScrutinizeryes, kill browserd00:09
rlyIs there some replacement/update for browserd?00:10
rlyI already killed it three times today.00:10
DocScrutinizerand say "thank you" to the designer of that webpage with flash/JS00:10
rlyDocScrutinizer: all flash causes that or just some flash?00:11
DocScrutinizersome poorly written JS and some flash00:11
DocScrutinizermost flash00:11
rlyBut I wasn't even running a browser anymore.00:11
DocScrutinizerflash doesn't stop when the browser loses focus00:12
rlyOr does it keep running in the background?00:12
rlyWhy not?!00:12
DocScrutinizermaybe to make your youtube music not stop while you check mail/whatever?00:13
rlyDocScrutinizer: but if I kill the browser window including youtube, then youtube also stops.00:14
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rlySo, to have something in the background running when nothing is visually there, that doesn't make sense.00:14
DocScrutinizerkillall browserd00:15
NIN101..but not as root :-).00:15
DocScrutinizerand get cpu load applet!00:15
rlyDocScrutinizer: I am not following.00:15
rlyDocScrutinizer: I am a screen user, if you think I don't know the usefulness of running stuff truly in the background.00:15
rly(or the tons of other daemons that do something useful on a real system)00:16
DocScrutinizerI am not the browserd developer00:16
rlyDocScrutinizer: ok, I thought you where making some point.00:16
DocScrutinizerso no use in arguing with me about usefulness of brwserd behaviour00:16
DocScrutinizerit's a "known" problem00:17
DocScrutinizerat least I know it00:17
DocScrutinizeralso from my desktop PC00:17
rlySo, has Nokia completely burned all maemo code and are they going Windows only, or is that just a marketing gimmick?00:18
DocScrutinizeron my desktop I frequently kill nspluginviewer processes, on N900 sometimes I need to killall nrowserd00:18
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DocScrutinizerNIN101: why not as root?00:19
rlyUpgrade complete \o/00:19
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NIN101DocScrutinizer: well it rebooted my device, but it was -9.00:21
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NIN101interesting, you need to do it several times.00:31
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NIN101until it reboots.00:32
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DocScrutinizerdsmetool? yeah that's known00:53
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DocScrutinizerNIN101: dsmetool --help -> >>  -t --start-restart=<cmd>        Start a process                                   (on process exit, restart max N times,                                    then do SW reset)<< also see -c --max-count=N  and -T --count-time=N01:29
NIN101DocScrutinizer: thx.01:31
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Hurriani've been wondering about /sbin/preinit on the n90001:46
Hurriana large part of it is a bootmenu01:46
Hurrianwhich we never see on the n90001:46
Hurrianand all it seems to actually do is mount filesystems and boot01:46
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Robot101how can I play speex files on the n900?01:59
SpeedEvilmplayer would be an option.01:59
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LaoLang_coolI can't understand why vim on maemo missing 'autochdir' feature...02:34
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DocScrutinizerHurrian: AIUI the preinit boot menu is for boting with "console"02:37
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LaoLang_coolhello, I'm trying to compile an app on N900, while doing ./configure, there is an error: checking whether the C copiler works.. no03:31
LaoLang_coolHow to solve it? I have installed gcc base03:31
LaoLang_coolShadowJK: I can't find such pkg on N900...03:33
ShadowJKI'd imagine it'd be in sdk tools like gcc03:33
LaoLang_coolapt-cache search build-essential returns nothing03:33
ShadowJKbut it's probably not such a good idea to be installing stuff from there anyways03:34
ShadowJKprobably libc6-dev is the most important missing piece03:34
LaoLang_coolShadowJK: I can't find a bin version for n900 of the app I want, so I have to try to compile it :(03:35
LaoLang_coolThe pkg name is fcitx03:36
DocScrutinizerthat'smmaemo and not gentoo ;-)03:36
LaoLang_coolA chinese input method03:36
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: I'm missing a suckless input method on n900, hard to use without it :(03:36
DocScrutinizerit's actually discouraged to compile on device03:36
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: so what's the recommended way?03:36
DocScrutinizerthe PC based SDK, called scratchbox03:37
DocScrutinizerthere's actually not even enough free space on a sane filesystem on N900 to install all the needed bits for proper building of maemo packages03:38
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ShadowJKYeah especially if you need lots of -dev packages you'll run out of space quite fast03:41
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LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: I'm not programmer, so it's very likely that I failed to compile it successfully, I wonder if there is somewhere that I could make a request or let others try to build an app for n900?03:46
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merlin1991LaoLang_cool: what is the application in question?03:52
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: a common Chinese input method, but there's no build on n90003:53
LaoLang_coolits name is fcitx03:53
LaoLang_coolit's sad that I have no dev enviroment and knowledge to build it :(03:54
merlin1991LaoLang_cool: got a link somewhere?03:55
merlin1991I could try to build it03:55
merlin1991(I have a complete scratchbox set up)03:57
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merlin1991LaoLang_cool: got a link to the projects page?04:00
merlin1991I could try to build it04:00
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LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: sorry, I'm got disconnected again, I will04:01
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: It's a Chinese website:
LaoLang_coolThe file is: fcitx-3.6.3.tar.bz2 2010-02-1304:02
merlin1991is it the same as
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: yes, but the page you give has newer version (above 4), it depends pango, so I guess it's harder to build than old version 304:04
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: Another app I'm missing on N900 is a cli dictionary, I'm using sdcv, the website is at
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LaoLang_coolI think it's much more easy to compile than fcitx :)04:04
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: and thank you for your so kind!04:05
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merlin1991LaoLang_cool: wich resulting file do you actually need?04:11
DocScrutinizerLaoLang_cool: meanwhile you may want to have an informative glance at
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: .deb? I'm new on N900 and maemo...04:12
DocScrutinizerLaoLang_cool: esp
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: if it works fine, could you please upload it into official maemo repo?04:13
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: thank you, will read it!04:13
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: My email is vanopen AT gmail DOT com04:14
DocScrutinizerbetter ^^^04:15
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: thank you, vmplayer + img is fit for me :)04:16
DocScrutinizeryeah, another good method, though the vm images need an update to latest after starting them, as the ones deployed are really obsolete - as far as I know04:17
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: Thank you for notice, I guess the speed of update is fast on pc04:18
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DocScrutinizeryeah, only takes hours ;-)04:21
DocScrutinizerhonestly I dunno, installing a generic scratchbox maemo SDK takes some hours though04:22
LaoLang_coolhours, oh..04:22
DocScrutinizerbut maybe I confuse things here, as I dealt with installing kernel sources and building kernel, and both took quite several hours, incl download though04:23
DocScrutinizerdu -hs /scratchbox -> 5,4G    /scratchbox04:26
merlin1991arf debhelper doesn't support bz204:27
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LaoLang_coolI'm curious that why vim on maemo doesn't support 'autochdir'?04:29
LaoLang_coolIt supports everything I need except this minor feature, don't know if it's because some technology reason04:31
LaoLang_cooltar on maemo doesn't support bz2 too..04:32
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ShadowJKtar is busybox04:35
SpeedEviltar is busybox.04:35
DocScrutinizerbusybox is crap04:35
SpeedEvilBusybox is great.04:35
LaoLang_coolgot it, thanks04:35
SpeedEvilFor what it is.04:35
SpeedEvilWhich isn't an interactive shell.04:35
LaoLang_coolBut my shell says it's ash, not busybox04:36
DocScrutinizeryeah, with tar that has no bz2 support04:36
DocScrutinizerbelieve me it's busybox04:36
ShadowJKi think "gnutar" is in repos04:36
DocScrutinizerLaoLang_cool: btw vim = busybox04:37
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils04:37
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: I install vim via apt-get install vim, so it's busybox too?04:37
ShadowJKit's not04:38
DocScrutinizerit's  not?04:38
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ll `which more`04:38
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 2010-06-23 06:13 /bin/more -> busybox04:39
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: vim isn't more...04:39
DocScrutinizererr no vim here04:39
DocScrutinizeryeah I know04:39
DocScrutinizerwas unrelated04:39
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ll `which vi`04:40
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-06-23 06:19 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi04:40
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ll /etc/alternatives/vi04:40
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2010-06-23 06:19 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /bin/busybox04:40
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: vim is not vi04:41
LaoLang_coolI got it :)04:41
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jonwilI think I may just have a set of source files that is functionally identical to the Maemo5 browserd daemon :)04:58
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jonwilJust testing it now04:59
pawkyhello, does anyone have any idea how to reset passwd?04:59
pawkyi f-- upp the root password... :-(04:59
pawkytried hard reset, soft reset with no luck..05:00
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: is it going on? :)05:01
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: cool~05:01
pawky(what I meant is how to restore the  /etc/passwd file)05:01
LaoLang_coolpawky: passwd <user name> ?05:02
pawkyno..  doesnt work..  its the root password thats Fucked up...05:03
pawkyso i need to reset the /etc/passwd file.. :-(05:03
pawkyBut maybe I should ask this in#harmattan?05:05
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merlin1991LaoLang_cool: well it compiled, but it doesn't run05:13
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LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: sorry, I disconnected again05:28
merlin1991fcitx did compile, but it doesn't run (ui crashes)05:28
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: hmmm05:29
LaoLang_coolwhat about sdcv?05:29
merlin1991I'll have a look at sdcv tomorrow05:29
merlin1991it's past 4 am here, I gotta catch some sleep :)05:29
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: thank you very much! My email is vanopen AT gmail DOT com, if I'm not here, please send it to me05:29
LaoLang_coolmerlin1991: have a good dream, too late there05:30
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* jonwil wishes Nokia would stop putting links to private bug trackers, repos etc in public documentation and bug reports06:26
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Macermy n900 made it to chicago08:30
Macerhopefully i get it tomorrow or the next day. that would be awesome08:30
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Macerdefinitely monday if not saturday08:31
Macerwow. figured travel time from hk would be a lot longer08:31
RST38bisheya macer08:37
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MacerRST38h:  good evening08:38
Maceror whatever you're on08:39
RST38hmoorning here08:39
Macermourning ;-)08:39
Maceri cant wait to get my n90008:39
Maceri am disappointed i cant find a pad charger that is compatible with it08:40
Maceri think the closest would be a duracell mygrid since it has a microusb clip on power receiver. that sucks.08:40
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LaoLang_coolHow to invoke web app from xterm?09:27
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Sicelosimplest is to use phone-control ... a really nice package09:40
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LaoLang_coolIs there some way to configure key binding globally to run a cmd10:15
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: hi, you're always online10:15
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psycho_oreosnot that I know of, you could try with vkb editor if you want to bind a hardware keyboard button to run a cmd I suppose10:16
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psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, pure coincidence :)10:16
LaoLang_coolAnother question, how to run apps in app list in xterm?10:17
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: thanks all the same, but that's not what I want, I want a key binding :)10:17
LaoLang_coolAny call recorder software on maemo?10:17
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LaoLang_coolAnd money management software10:18
psycho_oreoscall recorder software = recaller10:18
psycho_oreosapps in app list in xterm?10:18
psycho_oreosalso define what do you mean exactly by key binding? which keybinding? hardware or software?10:19
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: apps in app list means apps in the application menu :)10:20
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: keybinding is like Ctrl-r10:20
LaoLang_coolFor example, I want to run web app in xterm10:20
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psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, apps in app list would probably require creating .desktop icons?10:21
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, not sure about that but hildon-desktop is what I would be looking into... matan made a custom hildon-desktop which allows one to press certain keyboard sequences to do specific things. Since then his hack has been integrated and polished for use in CSSU10:22
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: I mean I want to run app in xterm, for example, I want to launch web browser in xterm, don't know what should I type in xterm10:22
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: thanks, that would be a starting point, I will look into it when I'm get more familiar with n900 :)10:23
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psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, you just type in the name of the program in order to execute it, iinm the stock browser is called microb10:24
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LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: $microb produces "microb: not found" ...10:24
Sicelo09:40 < Sicelo> simplest is to use phone-control ... a really nice package10:25
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Sicelo << has the info that package is based on, if u want to type directly10:26
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: recorder is, ..., just recorder..., I want to record the phone calling10:27
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, note that I said recaller, not recorder10:28
Siceloheh, he said 'recaller' which can record every sound from any bus inside N900. if u want to do it manually still, here -
LaoLang_coolMy faulse, sorry10:28
psycho_oreosand also read what Sicelo said, my device is lagging pretty badly so I cannot find the exact name of the program to run microb from xterem10:29
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: and also read what Sicelo said, my device is lagging pretty badly so I cannot find the exact name of the program to run microb from xterm10:29
Sicelopsycho_oreos: network lag, or system lag?10:30
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psycho_oreosSicelo, system lag, 4 days uptime and it seems to take awfully lots of time doing simple things. I guess when you run microb numerous times, osso-mediaplayer and bluetooth it seems to lag the device over time10:31
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psycho_oreosthe irony is that with my other N900 (with SIM card but the device is not used heavily as my main N900) seems to have the same amount of lag after 50+ days of uptime10:31
psycho_oreosin other words, for 4 days of lag from my main N900 is equivalent to roughly 50+ days of lag from my spare N900 with very similar configuration10:32
Siceloweird. nice device though, and i envy u ;)10:32
ShadowJKpsycho_oreos, it's swap fragmentation10:33
psycho_oreosit is a nice device but it has its flaws.. even with all that I still accepted and provided my N900 with two other siblings ;) you may envy me all you like but I still envy N950 owners more :D10:33
psycho_oreosShadowJK, o.O so if I adjust vm_swappiness for instance it would help?10:33
ShadowJKNot really10:34
jonwilok, time to post the latest results of my reverse engineering efforts10:34
psycho_oreoshmm, now I'm thinking of stupid things, like make sure nothing else is running (GUI programs-wise) and quickly turn off swap before turning swap back on10:35
ShadowJKOr, with swappiness high it's frequent amounts of "small" lag, with swappiness low it's infrequent amounts of huge lag.10:35
psycho_oreoshaha sounds like a huge trade-off either way10:36
ShadowJKYeah, I normally have swap on a swap partition on microsd. I use "iostat -m" from sysstat to monitor the amount of megabytes written to swap. When that is > size of swap partition, I swapon emmc swap again, swapoff microsd, etc.10:36
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: How to run recaller? I've installed it10:36
Siceloit's a widget10:37
psycho_oreoshmm that is interesting idea actually, and that would sort of temporarily alleviate the issue I suppose?10:37
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, what Sicelo said10:37
ShadowJKpsycho_oreos, for another 4 days10:37
jonwilCould write a program to automatically detect that and switch swaps as needed10:38
psycho_oreosShadowJK, that's not too bad at all considering that advanced-power sometimes fails to work upon reboots, not to mention the amount of time it takes for my device to reboot as well10:38
LaoLang_coolSicelo: I tried to add a widget in desktop, but the list doesn't have recaller too10:38
Siceloheh :P10:38
LaoLang_coolI find it has there...10:38
psycho_oreosjonwil, I was thinking of hacking a quick script together but I constantly pondered the thoughts of wearing out the microSD more10:38
ShadowJKjonwil, yeah I use a script10:39
ShadowJKI've never really worn out a microsd.. they've all died from what appears to be firmware bugs10:39
jonwilI have a list of about 27 different things I may do related to the N90010:40
jonwilreverse engineering things that is10:40
psycho_oreoscorrection, advanced-power works every now and then.. when it doesn't work its annoying that you get a grey battery icon with no indications of device is either charging or charged, etc. Apart from BME of course indicating via LED light on that lp5523 sensor. This is with advanced-power from extras-devel10:40
LaoLang_cooland, what about a money management software?10:41
psycho_oreosShadowJK, firmware bugs? ever owned TopRam microsd? just out of curiousity10:41
ShadowJKno it's not available here10:41
jonwilI know of no money management software for the N90010:41
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, I've only tried one but I don't know if its good enough to be recommended. All it does is you input your income and daily expenses and it makes a nice graph, etc10:42
psycho_oreosShadowJK, ahh bugger :/10:42
LaoLang_coolShadowJK: you talked to me?10:42
Sicelotoshl, and b-something LaoLang_cool10:42
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, doubt it10:42
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: oh, I think plain txt + R is a way10:43
LaoLang_coolSicelo: what do you mean? I can't understand10:43
jonwilanyone heard of or can tell me what it is?10:44
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, plain txt + R?10:45
LaoLang_coolIs it a built-in way to take screenshot?10:45
Sicelofind toshl in HAM. the other one will be in same category, starts with a B... but they're all as psycho_oreos said. nothing fancy like GnuCash10:45
psycho_oreosjonwil, I personally never heard of it10:45
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LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: record my expense then use R to import and analyse the data :) Geek way10:45
jonwilgoogle shows that this "" is running password protected svn repository and also a matching protected git repo10:46
Siceloaha, Buddy...10:46
psycho_oreosLaoLang_cool, ahh I never used R before10:46
LaoLang_coolSicelo: got it, thanks10:46
Sicelowhat is R?10:46
psycho_oreossome money management software I guess *shrugs*10:47
jonwilI think R is a programming language10:47
jonwilor a toolking10:47
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: Sicelo
LaoLang_coolBut I failed to install r-base on maemo10:47
LaoLang_coolIt says: r-recommended is broken here10:48
LaoLang_coolwhat about yours?10:48
LaoLang_coolhmmm :(10:49
jonwilaha, looks like is a place where development of things that arent developed in the open happens10:50
jonwilhence the password protection :P10:50
psycho_oreosor even experiments, maybe even secret stuff from nokia too *shrugs* who knows :)10:50
jonwilhmmm, what to work on next now that my browser-daemon work is completed10:52
LaoLang_coolwhere does n900 store the tarball of the pkg I've installed? I want to back them up10:53
psycho_oreosthey're not tarballs, they are compressed fakeroots known as deb files10:53
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: oh, so where can I find these .deb files on my N900?10:54
LaoLang_coolOr n900 will delete them after installing pkgs10:54
psycho_oreosand by default N900 doesn't store them, unless if you use FAM and/or you enable red pill mode with HAM and unchecked boxes for cleaning out apt cache10:54
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psycho_oreosapt-get is also another way, along with synaptics. apt-get stores the downloaded debs in the usual location: /var/cache/apt/archives. Synaptics may store elsewhere but may also delete it by default if you have not bothered to check the configs. FAM also does it by default but the setting is not locked away like in HAM10:56
* jonwil wishes bug 3836 had been fixed10:56
povbot`Bug Move MicroB to an open development process10:56
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psycho_oreosjonwil, I suppose timeless (who's hardly here these days) would happen to know a few things about microb10:58
LaoLang_cooln900 is so nice10:59
jonwilI dont think its info that's missing though, whats missing is code. And that is up to the10:59
psycho_oreosin its own ways, yes10:59
jonwilthat is probably up to the lawyers :(11:00
psycho_oreosheh as always11:00
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* jonwil has "corporate lawyers" on his list of people, companies and inventions that should vanish off the face of the earth11:00
psycho_oreosthe eradication of patents would be a good thing to target for starters *ducks*11:01
psycho_oreostoo many patent trolls11:01
jonwilactually no, dont get rid of patents11:02
jonwilget rid of bogus patents11:02
jonwiland make it easier for someone with prior art to get the patent overturned11:02
jonwilPlenty of patents that are genuinely worthy of existing11:03
psycho_oreosthat in itself also would pose bad idea.. what if the organisation for instance applied for the patent and was granted but never bothered to apply the technology utilising that patent? If you remove bogus patents, it may also mean unused patents which may force organisations to either implement it or never bother applying the patent in the first place.11:03
jonwilI mean "bogus" in the sense of patents that should never have been granted in the first place11:04
* psycho_oreos can now think of two apple's patents which can be quickly turned around and be placed into effect.. sure that would piss people off but then again11:04
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jonwilif the invention is original and unique enough to be worth registering, it deserves protection regardless of whether its being used in the real world or not11:05
psycho_oreosyeah though the definition of that is pretty vague, I mean such as what defines it should never have been granted? there are lots of patents which are not really used at all regardless if it was never meant to be patented.11:05
jonwilThe problem is that patents are being granted for things that are not original or novel enough to be deserving of protection11:06
psycho_oreosI mean take for instance, apple applied patent for some sort of infrared technology to be implemented in areas where their iphone/ipad users cannot use those device to record via camera. The owners could do everything else at such venue with such anti-home recording patent but just not record live shows. If lets say you tried to remove bogus patents which would inherently affect that imagine the all the shenanigans that follows afterwards11:08
LaoLang_coolWhich shell do you use?11:09
LaoLang_coolbash, tcsh11:09
psycho_oreos/bin/bash myself11:09
* ShadowJK uses busybox!11:09
psycho_oreosthere's also zsh11:09
LaoLang_coolShadowJK: geek does11:09
ShadowJKchanging your login shell is probably a bad idea, btw11:09
psycho_oreosI use busybox-power tools though. I hardly use ash (part of busybox) unless if I absolutely have to11:10
LaoLang_coolShadowJK: which file is the equivalent .bash_profile for ash?11:10
ShadowJKno idea11:10
Hurrianlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2011-09-25 13:39 /bin/bash -> /bin/bash411:10
LaoLang_coolShadowJK: so you use ash with no any customize?11:10
jonwilThat Apple patent, it doesn't matter if Apple are using it or not what matters is if its an original invention or not. Its hard for me to tell if that particular invention is novel enough to deserve protection or not since I am not an expert in the field.11:11
ShadowJKI have one screen session that I enter a few aliases in at startup11:11
psycho_oreoschanging your login shell isn't as much of a bad idea as deleting /bin/sh symlink and create a new symlink to the shell of your choice11:11
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psycho_oreosjonwil, heh neither am I but I can imagine eradicating bogus patents could create huge uproar11:12
LaoLang_coolpsycho_oreos: yes, it's .profile, thank you!11:13
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psycho_oreosno worries, also I would recommend what I said about symlinking /bin/sh to shell of your choice :| I learnt that the hard way (bootloops)11:14
LaoLang_coolash is ok enough :)11:14
LaoLang_coolfor me11:14
psycho_oreosShadowJK, maybe you could try that as well.. creating .profile and adding your favourite aliases in there11:15
ShadowJKI just do alias swapon=/home/user/swapon11:15
ShadowJKor something like that11:15
psycho_oreosI was thinking of having to do that as a routine would be a bit of a pita :)11:16
ShadowJKone every two months11:16
pyhimysthis maybe a stupid question, but what does n9 developer mode do? enable sshd?11:17
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inzpyhimys, that and adds new usb connection mode and installs terminal, and more11:18
DocScrutinizerash executes bash profile though!
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pyhimysinz: thanks! Is there a list of things it does?11:20
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pyhimysI didn't find anything on google. My google-fu might be lacking :(11:21
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DocScrutinizerpyhimys: N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan  -> /topic11:21
pyhimysDocScrutinizer: just noticed, i'll ask there, sorry about the inconvenience11:22
DocScrutinizerno inconvenience, but you'll get better (or at least more likely any) answer there11:22
jonwilpsycho_oreos, I suspect anything timeless may have that's of any value to the community is stuff he cant share.11:22
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psycho_oreosjonwil, then again he is pretty much the one responsible for microb developments. Sure he may have to hold secrets but I'm sure not all of it is a secret :)11:25
jonwilunless he can somehow magically make tablet-browser-source.tar.gz appear from thin air I doubt there is much information we could glean from him :P11:27
jonwileven a proper neteal.h file would be nice but again, its not going to happen :(11:28
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Sicelotimeless is with BB now, iirc11:29
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Hurrianwasnt someone working on a replacement for tablet-browser-ui?11:31
jonwilno idea11:31
jonwilAll the evidence I have suggests that Nokia does not want people talking to browserd and would rather they embed the browser widget directly :)11:32
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jonwilBut thats not going to stop me posting my browser-neteal-dev package :P11:32
ShadowJKhaving gecko "updated" would be nice, but I imagine that's easier said than done11:33
jonwilI dont see it being all that hard, all the pieces are there. And none of the interfaces used to talk to gecko (browser-eal or the browserd dbus interface) are using any gecko internals.11:34
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jonwilMain issue would be if closed-source gecko addins (i.e. Flash) are broken by any upgrade11:35
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psycho_oreosShadowJK, I don't suppose when your device has had 4 days uptime it had hildon-home eating up loads of CPU cycles?11:52
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psycho_oreoshmm crap :/ I'm facing this same old issue again and I'm guessing there's a really buggy widget somewhere that is constantly making hildon-home constantly do syscalls for get_timeofday11:54
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ruskiehmm interesting my n900 has been off the cell network for a while... odd11:55
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ruskiehmm interesting can't even get to the Phone settings applet11:57
LaoLang_coolhi, what about multi clipboard buffer?11:57
* ruskie wonders if he maybe put the thing into flight mode11:58
LaoLang_coolso I can copy two things then paste any of them in any order I like11:58
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LaoLang_coolmaybe it's called multi copy11:59
Sicelocheck out clipboard-manager. i haven't used it thoug12:04
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Siceloand cipman12:05
infobotSicelo meant: and clipman12:05
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LaoLang_coolhmm, clipman is multi copy, no multi paste12:32
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gryHi, I have a '/scratchbox' on my desktop system after installing something Maemo-related a few months ago; I don't remember the exact instructions that I followed. How do I properly uninstall it?13:05
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mecebrowserd open source!!13:09
pigeonis there a complete/flashable image for the n900 21.2011.38-1?13:09
meceI wonder if we could have microb on N9 now...13:12
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pigeonwhat is the browser on the n9?13:13
mecewebkit2 based13:13
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gry(For example, I have a shortcut to '/usr/local/bin/' at the Desktop, and it's labeled 'Maemo SDK' - so simply removing the '/scratchbox' directory is likely not enough)13:14
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jonwilWe cant have microb on the N913:17
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jonwilbecause the UI bits are closed source13:18
jonwiland GTK based13:18
jonwilPorting "microb" to the N9/N950 wont happen13:18
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jonwilPorting Gecko to the N9/N950 is possible if you can come up with a QT backend13:18
jonwiland writing a UI to talk to that gecko engine is also possible13:19
pigeonis n9 running X? or qt/qte like?13:19
jonwilN9 is running x13:19
pigeonhow about a n900/maemo chroot then?13:20
jonwilThats also not possible13:20
jonwilthere are too many hardware differences in the N9/N95013:20
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jonwilbrowserd being open source (which was my work btw) makes it easier to replace Gecko with a newer version13:22
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jonwilwell in theory it does13:26
jonwilas long as the new version doesnt break the closed-source bits like Flash13:27
merlin1991sry pigeon wrong highlight13:28
merlin1991gry ^^13:28
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gryThank you.13:37
DocScrutinizergry: rm /scratchbox see TOP13:38
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gryDocScrutinizer: "There is currently no text in this page"?13:41
gryThank you, too.13:42
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gryI already did "sudo rm -rf /scratchbox" like said.13:43
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gryDocScrutinizer, How do I proceed?13:44
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DocScrutinizergry: well, either your scratchbox wasn't started, or you already killed your system13:45
DocScrutinizera `mount` will show you if there are bindmounts of /proc /dev etc to /scratchbox/*13:46
jonwilhmmm, what to work on next? :P13:46
jonwilI am pleased with the browserd work, it took a fair bit of effort to get things right13:47
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~/Documents/N900/backup/IroN900> mount|grep scratch13:47
DocScrutinizer/scratchbox on /scratchbox/users/jr/scratchbox type none (rw,bind)13:47
DocScrutinizer/tmp on /scratchbox/users/jr/tmp type none (rw,bind)13:47
DocScrutinizer/proc on /scratchbox/users/jr/proc type none (rw,bind)13:47
DocScrutinizer/dev on /scratchbox/users/jr/dev type none (rw,bind)13:47
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pigeonjonwil: is that an open request to everyone? ;)13:49
gryDocScrutinizer, is ok?13:50
jonwilif you have things for me to reverse engineer, speak up13:50
DocScrutinizergry: yes13:50
SpeedEviljonwil: Can you reverse engineer Nokia, so we can try to fix the more annoying bugs?13:51
jonwilspeedevil: :P13:54
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DocScrutinizerLOL -> Microsoft Security Advisory (2639658): Vulnerability in TrueType Font Parsing Could Allow Elevation of Privilege
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ZogGMohammadAG, ping13:56
jonwilso yeah what should I work on next?13:57
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jonwilmight try to clone tablet-browser-view-test14:12
Macerwow i am way ahead in my bills this month.. it's nice14:12
jonwilseems like the perfect way to handle a web browser in your app14:12
jonwiltablet-browser-view looks like it does some of the good things for you :)14:12
SpeedEviljonwil: OMG! I just read the 'new web browser' post. :)14:12
SpeedEvil(I know there would be lots of work)14:12
Maceryou made a new web browser?14:12
Maceruhm.... you are making one? :)14:13
Maceryou need one?14:13
jonwilwhy do you ask?>14:13
jonwilYou got one?14:13
jonwilWhat I did was I took some code for an old version of the maemo browserd daemon and fixed it up to match the N900 version14:14
Macerwas there something wrong with the new one?14:14
jonwilwell the stock one is closed-source14:14
jonwilso I created something thats open14:15
Maceroooooh. i see. fair enough. makes sense14:15
jonwilso people can change it14:15
Macerit is nice to see that there are people still working on cssu14:15
Macermake a new desktop that uses the sgx and the world will be a perfect place heh14:15
Robot101jonwil: did you see the port we did of GtkWebKit to the N810 EAL?14:15
Robot101jonwil: if you've got an OSS NetEAL version you could resurrect that engine port14:16
Robot101jonwil: it's pretty fast :)14:16
jonwilno, where is that?14:16
Macerfor the love of God.. no gtk!!14:16
* Macer hides14:16
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Robot101the N900 - uses quite a lot of Gtk...14:16
Maceri know. it is a shame.14:16
Macermaemo was moving away from gtk (which was awesome) in favor of qt.. but unfortunately ... well... we all know the story14:17
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Macergtk needs to be abandoned by the world14:17
Macerit is like watching the world use motif still14:17
derfYou wouldn't say that if you'd ever actually used Motif.14:18
derfOr worse, written code for it.14:18
jonwilso where is this GtkWebKit for the N810?14:19
Macerheh... i was just using a similie14:19
jaskai have read code written for motif, i am thankful for not ever having to write :D14:19
Macerjaska: i would hope you would say the same for gtk14:19
Macerpython and perl need to go as well14:20
jaskamacer: i detest gui toolkits in general :)14:20
Macergo straight to hell14:20
Robot101Macer: you should get over this technology thing14:20
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Robot101the problem isn't any given technology, it's changing the technology all the time14:20
Macerjava too :-)14:20
Robot101switching from Gtk to Qt was the waste of time that killed MeeGo's chances inside Nokia14:21
Macerthat is why governments should execute people that dont use asm14:21
Robot101it cost literally 2 years of rewriting stuff on the N900 which basically almost worked14:21
gryDocScrutinizer: I rebooted, the system appears to be ok. Thank you for your advice.14:21
MacerRobot101: you really think that is what killed meego? :-)14:22
Robot101um... yes14:22
Macerif you say so14:22
Maceri think the inability to make nokia money killed meego14:23
Robot101yes, due to inability to release a product14:23
Macerbut i suppose we all have a different point of view on the matter14:23
Robot101no, you're just supporting my theory14:23
Robot101time wasted => no money in14:23
Macerthey could have released a product had they put their full weight and resources behind it... maemo was a back alley nokia product while symbian had all the goods14:24
Robot101change technology and rewrite loads of stuff with a team which is 10 times bigger than it needs to be, and get rid of the working code for *NO REAL REASON* => waste years and 10 times more money14:24
Robot101Harmattan had a gigantic team compared to Fremantle - that was part of the problem14:24
Maceri am still with a demand issue14:25
Macerandroid and ios had 70% of the market and nobody wanted the other stuff14:25
Robot101Nokia's supply chain inertia is large enough to create demand just by filling the market14:25
Robot101provided the product is good enough14:25
Robot101that's what Microsoft is betting on14:25
Macerwebos.... rim..... symbian.....14:25
Robot101webos and rim are just ants compared to the nokia juggernaut - they didn't ship in as many countries, or as many operators, or in as much volume as anything from N14:26
Robot101anyway, lunch time14:26
jonwilI dont know that a webkit based EAL will work very well on the N90014:26
Macersounds like maemo14:26
Macerwhich shipped in many countries and was still an ant14:27
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ShadowJKwebit microb didn't work that well in diablo I think14:31
jonwilLooking at that EAL code it should be fairly simple to port to Fremantle if you wanted to14:31
jonwilalthough as was said, its probably not worth doing14:31
jonwilme, I intend to clone tablet-browser-view-test now :)14:33
jonwilshouldn't be hard from the look of it14:33
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jonwillately I have been on a real "lets reverse engineer stuff14:37
jonwil" mood14:37
jonwilwhich is a good thing14:37
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jonwilI have a habit of comming into communities and really contributing to those communities with good things14:44
Maceri just took the most awesome shower ever14:44
Macerjonwil: thats awesome. no matter how much contempt we may all have for nokia.... maemo is still great14:45
Macerthere is nothing like it14:45
luke-jrMaemo *could have been great* if anything worked right, maybe.14:46
jonwilI love Maemo14:47
jonwiland I think the N900 is the best cellphone ever made :)14:47
Macerluke-jr: i think it is the best mobile full linux distro made thus far14:47
luke-jrjonwil: N900 wasn't supposed to be a cellphone14:47
luke-jrMacer: Maemo isn't Linux14:47
luke-jrMacer: MeeGo, maybe14:47
luke-jrbut not Maemo for sure14:47
jonwilMaemo IS linux14:48
luke-jrjonwil: nope14:48
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Macermaemo uses a linux kernel and it also has a gnu user env14:48
luke-jrjonwil: it doesn't ship with Linux, and you can't even use it with Linux14:48
Macerwhat more do you need to fit the definition of "Linux"14:48
petteriwe all love maemo, luke-jr is just trolling14:48
luke-jrMacer: no, it doesn't have a GNU env14:48
luke-jrMacer: it has BusyBox14:48
luke-jrMacer: Linux comes from kernel.org14:49
Macera lot of arm based distros have busybox14:49
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luke-jrMacer: sure, but that doesn't make it GNU14:49
luke-jrBusyBox != GNU14:49
Macerseriously? :)14:49
Macerso you're saying the kernel used on a n900 is not a linux kernel?14:49
LaoLang_coolwhich file browser is recommended?14:49
Macerok.. how about "linux based"14:49
jonwilThe N900 is most definatly "Linux"14:49
luke-jrdownload *any* Linux kernel (remember, they're on and get Maemo to boot with it14:49
jonwilIts got a linux kernel on it14:49
luke-jrMacer: sure14:50
luke-jrMacer: Android is also Linux-based,  though14:50
MacerLinux-Like heh14:50
luke-jrjonwil: no more than Android does14:50
jonwilIts linux in that it can run linux apps14:50
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luke-jrjonwil: BSD can also run Linux apps14:50
Macerluke-jr: i assumed n900 used a basic omap kernel with hardware blobs14:50
luke-jrMacer: nope14:50
luke-jrMacer: it has a bunch of userspace API hacks required14:50
Maceri think you're being way too technical on what should be considered "linux"14:51
* merlin1991 can't find the icon for terminal app packages on the wiki14:51
luke-jrMacer: for good reason14:51
merlin1991I remember that if the package contains a terminal app it shoud have that icon14:51
Macerluke-jr: that sounds like anal debian dev talk there14:51
luke-jrMacer: the fact that Maemo doesn't use Linux is the reason why you can never get Linux 3.1 working with it14:51
luke-jreven with the drivers ported14:51
Macerstskeeps was workign on adding all the open stuff to the linux arm branch.. but well.. we all know how that went14:51
luke-jrLinux won't accept Maemo's API hacks14:52
jonwilI see nothing in the N900 system that would be in any way tied to specific kernel vresions14:52
luke-jrjonwil: you didn't look very hard.14:52
jonwilGive me an example then14:52
jonwilYou could easily port whatever maemo patches are in the maemo kernel to whatever other kernel source tree you had14:52
jonwilif you wanted to14:52
luke-jrjonwil: perhaps, but then you're back to Linux-based since Linux proper will never accept these patches14:53
fluxif the companies would need to get everything the need to get the project going upstreamed before they use it, they would miss deadlines even better14:54
luke-jr/proc/bootreason is not a Linux API, yet Maemo requires the kernel to provide it14:54
Macerwouldn't that mean that ubuntu is also not linux?14:54
luke-jrMacer: Ubuntu will boot if you install a Linux kernel14:54
fluxand after it's been released, nobody cares about working with the upstream14:54
Maceron an n900?14:54
fluxit's not like you can just ship a patch and it gets integrated14:54
luke-jrMacer: yes, if the drivers are patched in (drivers *can* be accepted upstream)14:54
luke-jrflux: it's easier than supporting the device after releasing it14:55
fluxprobably bootreason could've just been an additional driver (maybe it is now already, I don't know)14:55
luke-jrflux: the problem is Nokia doesn't care to do either14:55
fluxluke-jr, but if you don't get everything in, it's not very useful14:55
fluxbecause you still need to provide support14:55
luke-jrflux: if you get everything in, the Linux kernel maintainers keep it up to date for you14:55
luke-jrmore or less14:55
* luke-jr thinks Linus should be more assertive about enforcing the trademark14:56
jonwilI suspect Linus would consider that a N900 is "running Linux"14:56
jonwilRMS would probably say "its Linux but not gnu/linux"14:57
fluxso does a linux fork become not-linux the moment you have an application that depends on a modification you've made?14:57
jonwilbtw, what part of the system relies on bootreason anyway?14:57
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jonwiloh ok, getbootstate needs it14:59
luke-jrflux: the Linux fork becomes not-Linux the moment it behaves differently from Linux14:59
Macer:) luke-jr maemo is still the best "linux-based" mobile distro14:59
jonwilsomeone created an open clone of getbootstate IIRC14:59
luke-jrflux: the *userland/aggregation* becomes "not Linux" the moment it won't boot with a standard Linux kernel14:59
SpeedEvilluke-jr: That would mean linuses fork is not linux.14:59
fluxluke-jr, so it's all black and white? you add a usleep(1) to boot and then it behaves differently from The True Linux?14:59
luke-jrSpeedEvil: Linus defines Linux14:59
luke-jrflux: that's not different behaviour :pp14:59
fluxI would say adding custom system calls crosses the line, for example15:00
jonwilI like the N900 because its the most open 3G handset available15:00
fluxnot adding new drivers or entries in /proc15:00
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Then that would mean the mainline kernel is not linux.15:00
Macerluke-jr: omg that should go on the quote bot15:00
luke-jrSpeedEvil: fail15:00
MacerLinux defines Linux15:00
Macerthat was epic15:00
fluxdyslexics of the world, untie ;)15:00
Macerand after that he walks on water and rises from the dead :)15:00
luke-jrflux: /proc entries are basically system calls without using up syscall numbers15:00
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Linus maintains a repository that is not in the mainstream kernel yet.15:00
Macerwhat does linux do for money?15:01
jonwilcan we stop arguing about whether the N900 is running Linux or not and get back to taking about which closed-source bits of the N900 software I will reverse engineer next? :)15:01
luke-jrhe's paid to hack Linux15:01
Maceri mean. he writes open source kernels.. does he have a side job? :)15:01
luke-jrjonwil: AGPS?15:01
luke-jrwait, that's N8x015:01
jonwilN900 has AGPS15:01
jonwilbut GPS is too complicated15:01
luke-jrMacer: open source != not paid15:01
luke-jrjonwil: pfft15:01
luke-jrjonwil: hack NOLO?15:01
fluxluke-jr, except drivers can easily add new entries to /proc15:02
luke-jrreplace it with something open15:02
jonwilI already investigated location-daemon, location-proxy etc15:02
luke-jrflux: not really, no. they change /sys15:02
jonwilAs for NOLO, I dont want to touch stuff that low-level15:02
jacekowskiluke-jr: that's not a problem15:02
jonwilso not NOLO or kernel or cellmodem15:02
fluxluke-jr, well, things are just moving to /sys or have moved there lately15:02
luke-jrjonwil: you know I reverse engineered location-* years ago?15:02
jacekowskiluke-jr: but u-boot is huge compared to nolo15:02
jacekowskiluke-jr: and rewriting bootloader takes time15:02
jacekowskiluke-jr: and nolo does the job15:03
jonwilgot a link to that location-* work?15:03
luke-jrjonwil: PowerVRT15:03
luke-jrjonwil: PowerVR15:03
Macerjonwil: is there a list of closed things on a n900?15:03
Maceryeah... open up the powervr15:03
jonwilPowerVR is also too complex, already looked at it before15:03
jonwiloh that page15:04
fluxluke-jr, create_proc_read_entry still exists and is used by modules15:04
luke-jrflux: modules != drivers15:04
luke-jrflux: modules are just binary patches15:04
* DocScrutinizer smells Friday15:05
MacerDocScrutinizer: i'm already off work. i smell weekend :)15:05
DocScrutinizerMacer: I notice that, yeah15:05
jonwilclockd is closed source I suspect because it talks to cell network to get cell network time or related settings15:05
Macerand i made a big plan to veg out the entire week15:05
Maceryeah well... get rid of that haha... make it use ntpd or something :)15:06
DocScrutinizerjonwil: a good candidate fro RE15:06
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Macerwow... that much of hildon is closed?15:07
Macerwhy would nokia even bother keeping hildon on lockdown like that?15:07
luke-jr[09:05:58] <jonwil> clockd is closed source I suspect because it talks to cell network to get cell network time or related settings15:08
luke-jr^ retarded15:08
luke-jrcell network takes too long to get time15:08
luke-jrI wish NITs just used the stupid GPS for time15:09
luke-jrit doesn't even really need a fix15:09
luke-jrjust a single GPS packet15:09
Maceruntil you're not los for a long time15:09
SpeedEvilIs a GPS packet - enough for time anyway15:09
luke-jrthe only time GPS fails for me is when cell service fails15:09
jonwilBtw that GPS reverse engineering is only a tiny part of the functionality for GPS, its only one of many different packets that are sent to and from the cell modem for GPS15:10
luke-jrand once you get a single GPS packet, you can use the system clock15:10
jonwiland that packet isn't even totally reverse enginereed15:10
luke-jrjonwil: it was enough to get the GPS fully functional…15:10
luke-jrexcept maybe AGPS15:10
jonwil"functional" and "works as good as stock" are 2 different things :)15:10
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jonwilas for hildon, I bet a lot of the closed bits are closed for other reasons. For example hildon-theme-* are closed because they are "branding"15:11
Macerjonwil: just don't listen to him.. open clockd15:12
Macerdo it your own way :)15:12
jonwilalso remember Nokia has a "UX == differentiation" rule15:12
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Macerwell... hildon is very wel closed15:12
Macerthe applets are shocking15:12
Macerall the applets are closed? :)15:13
jonwilyeah the control panel applets are closed15:13
jonwilbut that doesnt mean hildon iself is closed15:13
Maceryou would think someone would have made new applets15:13
Maceropen ones15:13
jonwilalthough a number of the applets have been cloned for the CSSU15:13
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jonwillike the notification light applet15:13
Macerah i see15:13
jonwilor the tv-out applet15:13
jonwilsomeone cloned the battery charge status widget15:13
Maceri find it odd nokia would keep that closed as well15:14
Maceri wonder what goes through their minds when they make these decisions15:14
jaskaprobably nothing15:14
jonwilas for clock, I am looking up right now all the different packages involved to figure out which ones should go on my todo15:15
jonwilI plan to finish cloning tablet-browser-view-test first I think15:16
jonwilbut yeah clockd seems like a good idea15:16
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jonwilhmmm there is clockd and also Libclockcore0-015:17
jonwilalthough it looks like Libclockcore0-0 is just for the clock applet15:17
jonwili.e. its not low-level like clockd15:18
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jonwilclockd requires libcityinfo0, whatever that is15:18
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Macerprobably the database that some atlas company sued over15:19
Macerthat was comical15:19
Macerno more timezones for linux!15:20
ShadowJKthat's tzdata15:23
ShadowJKlibcityinfo is probably that world map15:23
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Macerwell... my n900 is in chicago.... i hope it gets here soon15:23
Macerprobably tomorrow... i hope... i need an n900 before i just die15:23
Macerthis G2 is so absolutely horrible15:23
jonwilno, world map is libhildon-time-zone-chooser0-015:23
jonwilsomeone produced a set of header files for libhildon-time-zone-chooser0-015:24
jonwillibcityinfo looks worth cloning maybe15:24
jonwilif I am doing clockd, libcityinfo seems worth checking out too15:24
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jonwilit has a -dev and a -doc package too15:25
jonwilwhich makes life easier15:25
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Maceri wonder why a blue nokia e7 is so much more than a silver one15:25
Macerdo they use porshe quality paint?15:26
jonwileeew, german cars :P15:26
Macerdo the fins make cars? :)15:27
jacekowskiMacer: they use porsche quality paint on silver oone15:27
jacekowskiMacer: that's why it's so cheap15:27
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Macergeez i was just curious :) i mean the shade of blue just doesn't seem very high demand15:28
jonwilI dont know if they make cars in finland but they do over the boarder in Sweeden15:28
jonwilsome mighty fine cars at that15:28
jacekowskijonwil: saab went bust last month15:28
jonwilnope, they havent gone bust yet15:28
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jonwilthey are in financial trouble15:28
jonwilbut there are all sorts of people who want to invest money in SAAB15:29
jacekowskiOn September 7th 2011, Saab Automobile filed for bankruptcy protection15:29
jaskaarent they getting sold to chinese?15:29
jacekowskithey are bust15:29
jacekowskivolvo is all right15:29
jonwilvolvo ftw :)15:29
jaskaand volvo got sold to the chinese already :)15:29
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Macermaybe i will buy an allvelo15:30
jacekowskibut saab made much better cars15:30
Macersaab made ugly cars15:30
Macerthey turned into just a name15:30
Macerlike apple :)15:30
jonwilThe local transport authority around here is buying a whole bunch of Volvo buses15:30
jacekowskibut you could do million miles and it would still work15:30
jonwiland they are good buses at that15:30
jaskanot quite like apple, i wouldnt take an iphone for free.15:30
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Macerjacekowski: but if for some reason it doesn't last a million miles then it costs a million to repair15:31
jonwilI would actually say the Volvo buses are better than the german and french product (Mercedes Benz and Renault) that makes up the rest of the bus fleet15:32
jacekowskiMacer: still cheaper than fixing german crap15:33
jacekowskii've seen 2008 BMW on fire 3 weeks ago15:33
jacekowskion M2515:33
jonwilheh, just saw a TV ad for the N915:33
jacekowskijonwil: i don't have a tv15:34
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Macerare they still only selling N9s to fins only?15:35
Macerhow racist :)15:36
jonwilThe N9 is definatly for sale in Australia15:36
jaskafriend bought n9 and a bt kbd, told him not to15:36
jonwilfrom at least one carrier15:36
jaskanow hes moaning about the kbd not working :)15:36
MacerDocScrutinizer was talking about that15:36
Macerthat the bt keyboard doesn't work :)15:37
Maceri wonder if my su8w will work with the e715:37
jonwilok, so for the clock stuff, if I decide to clone anything, I will clone clockd, libcityinfo0-0 and libtime015:37
Maceri bet it does15:37
jaskai should lure him to sell me his n90015:37
jaskafor spares15:37
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Macerhurry up before he realizes the n9 sucks15:37
jonwilclockd at the very least doesn't seem that hard to clone15:38
jonwillibtime seems harder15:38
Macermaybe someone will port meego for the e715:38
jonwilok, back to reverse engineering tablet-browser-view-test :)15:38
Macerdamn... my n900 is already at my post office at 6am.. it might get here today!15:39
Macerthat would be great15:39
Macerit is amazing how quickly this thing is getting here15:39
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jonwiloh and btw luke-jr, I have a pn_location_isi.h header file containing all the packets sent too and from the cellmodem for GPS15:40
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Macerjonwil: don't listen to luke-jr .. he is bitter15:43
luke-jrno u15:43
luke-jrjonwil: could be legally grey to use that :p15:44
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DocScrutinizerjonwil: pn_location_isi.h WOW!15:48
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jonwilis that WOW as in, cool, didnt know that was out there or wow as in "big deal"?15:49
jonwiltablet-browser-view-test seems nice and simple :P15:50
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jonwiltonight though I will not make the mistake I made last night of pulling an all-nighter and ending up in bed at 5am just as the sun was starting to come up15:52
jonwilok, good, tablet-browser-view-test has an i386 build15:53
jonwil(i386 packages are easier to reverse engineer than armel)15:54
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jonwiltoo tired to do much more work tonight15:55
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jonwilshould probably stop doing all this N900 work and clean up my pigsty of an apartment ready for a rent-inspection in just under 2 weeks :)15:56
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meceThinking about cloning keycard to phone...15:59
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merlin1991FSCKD AUTOBUILDER15:59
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Macermy artigo took a crap on me16:01
Maceri was in the middle of watching something and it just shut off by itself and now it won't boot16:01
Maceri get the bios and it just sits there and doesn't count the memory. i hope the memory just died16:01
Maceri used the damn thing to watch tv shows in my room16:01
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merlin1991okay got my package to build now, but is there any convenient way to build packages beforehand like on the autobuilder?16:08
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LaoLang_coolHow do you sync time on n900?16:30
IkarusLaoLang_cool: GSM16:32
Ikarusdoes require the network to have active time broadcasts16:32
LaoLang_coolIkarus: my GSM has no this service here...16:33
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IkarusLaoLang_cool: then you could use NTP or GPS16:33
LaoLang_coolI think npt is the best way for my condition16:33
LaoLang_cooloh, mensioned GPS, here when I open map, it always says: looking for GPS...16:33
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DocScrutinizerLaoLang_cool: with time incorrect AGPS will fail16:46
DocScrutinizerwe had that topic like 18h ago16:46
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LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer: oh! it's the time incorrect issue16:47
LaoLang_coolI will try to install a ntpupdate to sync my clock16:47
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LaoLang_coolI've installed openntpd16:51
color`codedwas reading installation of queen beecon/sense ui widget ... reading through that seems installing nitdroid is simpler hehe16:52
LaoLang_coolbut how to use it...16:53
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LaoLang_coolno ntpdate for n900 :(17:01
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LaoLang_coolSpeedEvil: I've installed it, but don't know how to use it...17:04
LaoLang_cooljust a nptd command17:05
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NIN101ntpd -p ntp.ubuntu.com17:05
SpeedEvilit should sync after a few mins, if you have network17:05
NIN101(at least the busybox version of ntpd)17:05
LaoLang_coolNIN101: Invalid option -- p17:06
LaoLang_coolntpd [-dSs] [-f file]17:06
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LaoLang_coolSpeedEvil: Is the openntpd installed by apt-get busybox version?17:08
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SpeedEvilIt's not the full version17:10
SpeedEvilI'm unsure where it comes from17:10
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SpeedEvilntpd -d seems to update17:12
LaoLang_coolHow to know if the time is correct?17:12
LaoLang_coolSpeedEvil: cool, -d works17:12
DocScrutinizer51probably it's most reasonable to add ntpd -q(?) && hwclock --systohc  to ifup17:13
LaoLang_coolDocScrutinizer51: no -q option too...17:14
DocScrutinizer51ntpd in daemon mode doesn't play nice on random connectivity17:14
DocScrutinizer51yeah, in former times there's been ntptime17:14
DocScrutinizer51it's obsolete though ntpd doesn't completely replace it17:15
LaoLang_coolStill always looking for GPS...17:15
DocScrutinizer51anyway messybox $random_cmd usually doesn't work as expeted, so better get the genuine package17:16
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Corsacmpf, no openssl17:17
LaoLang_coolCorsac: do you talk to me?17:17
Corsacnot at all17:18
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LaoLang_coolCorsac: oh17:20
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* Sicelo has ntpdate :)17:53
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revHi guys.  Can anyone tell me why certain packages listed here:  won't show up in my applications list on the n900?  I'm specifically trying to get iptables18:01
revI see lots of other packages, just not iptables18:02
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jacekowskibecause it's not gui application18:03
jacekowskistuff that's not gui has to be installed from console18:03
revgotcha.  thanks18:03
revawesome.  Got it.  :(18:04
rever :)18:04
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nealI'm looking for people to vote on woodchuck related packages so they can enter extras18:54
nealthose are the two most important, but there are 7 packages in total :/18:55
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psycho_oreoshmm any reasons as to why Fn + Sym does not bring up the vkb with extra symbols? If I double tap Fn I will get a banner that says Fn is locked, obviously pressing it once again gets out of Fn locking. If I press and hold Fn key whilst hitting another key that has Fn functionality I get the symbols. The Sym|Ctrl appears to work as well in terminal when I press and hold Sym|Ctrl and hit D (for logging out).20:52
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psycho_oreosAlso when the keyboard is not slid out on N900, I could get the virtual keyboard, but not the extra symbols keyboard20:53
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* psycho_oreos is starting to think this third N900 is a real lemon, too many issues here and there20:54
ShapeshifterHey, does someone know if it's possible to turn of Javascript in opera?20:54
ShapeshifterI can't find the setting and nothing on the web.20:55
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Shapeshifterx29a: I'm talking about opera for the N900, naturally.20:56
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x29aid figure its not that much different20:58
x29aShapeshifter: did you go through the settings already?20:58
Shapeshifterx29a: yes20:58
x29aopera:config as well?20:58
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x29athe option of question would be: Scripting Enable JavaScript/ECMAScript 120:59
Shapeshifterx29a: mhh, there's only one option matching ecma, "EcmaScriptJIT". searching for javascript shows a bunch of unrelated settings21:00
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x29ano value for scripting?21:01
x29athen id say, its not possible21:01
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Shapeshifterno. yeah it's odd21:02
StarwizWhen flashing my N900, what firmware should I use for canada?21:02
StarwizThe USA or global one?21:02
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StarwizWell.. my Nokia N900 isn't detecting my SIM card.21:03
psycho_oreosStarwiz, probably global one imo21:05
StarwizPsycho_Oreos: That was my quess.. But neither are detecting my SIM card. =\21:05
nox-do i see that right the pr1.3.1 update the autoupdating offers doesnt touch the kernel?21:05
psycho_oreosStarwiz, did the device use to work with the exact same SIM card?21:05
psycho_oreosnox-, I'm assuming it shouldn't21:06
StarwizPsycho_Oreos: I just bought it.21:06
psycho_oreosnox-, but as always, backup is really handy21:06
psycho_oreosStarwiz, which? the device or the SIM card?21:07
nox-psycho_oreos, whats the preferred backup method these days? :)21:07
StarwizPsycho_Oreos: The device.21:07
psycho_oreosnox-, backupmenu, too bad backupmenu couldn't backup the kernel but at least it'll save you heck alot of work though21:08
psycho_oreosStarwiz, brand new or second hand?21:08
StarwizPsycho_Oreos: Brand new21:08
psycho_oreosStarwiz, it could be that the provider is not using a frequency that the device could handle (e.g. 850MHz band)21:09
nox-psycho_oreos, ok.  its mostly just bc i use kernel power and was wondering if i should uninstall it before upgrading...21:09
psycho_oreoss/device could/device couldn't/21:09
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: Starwiz, it could be that the provider is not using a frequency that the device couldn't handle (e.g. 850MHz band)21:09
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psycho_oreosnox-, to be frank I wouldn't have a clue. nokia said it was only a security fix which is a simple/trivial matter of updating the certificates but who knows what else has been changed in PR1.3.1. I myself use CSSU which already has the diginotar's fix ages ago21:10
nox-yeah i see they're aiming for a stable cssu, i might use that too once its released...21:11
nox-maybe ill just wait :)21:11
psycho_oreosStarwiz, I'd try another SIM card that works with your previous device/phone and that doesn't use 850MHz band. If you still get no SIM card, your device could be faulty. Thinking about it again, its somewhat unlikely that inserting a SIM card with a provider that works with 850MHz band will give you a no SIM card error. If anything, it would not be able to subscribe to the network instead of showing no SIM card inserted icon21:12
psycho_oreosCSSU currently is somewhat stable from my point of view, at least it provides plenty of cool features that nokia couldn't be assed revealing21:13
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StarwizPsycho_oreos: I redid the flash, and now I'm not getting the no-sim error thang.. But I don't have a service bar or anything =\21:18
psycho_oreosStarwiz, you still have yet to find out if the provider works on 850MHz band or not21:19
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StarwizPsycho_Oreos: After a google search, wikipedia came up saying that the GSM-850 and GSM-1900 are used in Brazil, Canada, etcetc21:22
* psycho_oreos facepalms21:22
StarwizUMTS/HSPA 850MHz and/or 1900MHz21:23
psycho_oreosIndeed, there are a few countries that uses 850MHz band but that's not my question. My question is if your SIM provider works with 850MHz band21:23
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StarwizUMTS/HSPA 850MHz and/or 1900MHz = Telus21:23
StarwizSo I'm going to say yes. =P21:23
Maceri will be damned21:24
Macerit really is a brand new nokia n900 lol21:24
psycho_oreosSo go with another provider that doesn't use 850MHz band because afaik N900 doesn't support 850MHz band?21:24
Macerit doesnt seem to be a hk knockoff21:24
Macer$255 for a brand new n900 wasnt bad21:25
psycho_oreosfrom where?21:25
Maceri am using it now waiting for it to do something asian :)21:26
Macerbut so far it seems to be working like a champ21:27
Maceromg i missed the n900 qwerty. pne of the better ones i have ever used21:27
psycho_oreosit won't do anything asian if you flashed it properly and fully. I've bought my 2nd N900 when I visited HK. Needless to say I was a little pissed off it isn't quite brand new as someone has played around with it and screwed up the vkb. Plus I'm missing a proper USB -> microUSB cable and headphone21:29
Maceryeah.. mine was too lol21:29
Macerfake chinese headphones21:30
Macerat least the battery is nokia21:30
Maceri can deal with that as long as the phone is good21:30
Macer$255 is cheap even for a used n90021:30
psycho_oreosmine was a genuine nokia headphones but they don't work with N900. It has extra buttons to control music player (needless to say which doesn't work).21:30
StarwizPsycho_Oreos: Is it possible for me to use this phone without the 3G network? Because the 2G is 850/1900 compatible. So shouldn't it work for just calls and whatnot?21:30
StarwizOr am I just crazy.21:31
Maceri have my original headphones from my broken one21:31
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Macerfk.. i just realized my xp box died this morning21:31
psycho_oreosStarwiz, You can, the problem isn't that. The problem is that if your provider currently is only using 850MHz band, if they are you're pretty much screwed21:32
Maceri need to flash cssu21:32
Macermeh. i will do that later21:32
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StarwizPsycho_Oreos: Oh I see.21:32
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psycho_oreosStarwiz, and the alternative is to get another SIM card with a provider that does not use 850MHz band or you'll need to buy another phone that is capable of using Telus21:33
Macercrap i forgot how long it takes to install something on the n90021:34
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psycho_oreosit actually doesn't take that long :P21:35
psycho_oreosaka FAM21:36
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Sazpaimonwhat is event_type_id 7 in the el-v1.db21:44
Sazpaimoni thought its sms, in my db those are 1121:45
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DocScrutinizerMacer: yeah, wait for either T17 CSSU, or the all exciting new Stable version to come soon21:53
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MacerDocScrutinizer: really?22:22
Macerso no point in flashing now?22:22
DocScrutinizerreally what?22:22
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Maceryou said to wait for a stable release22:25
Maceri am guessing i am going to have to flash cssu on my hk n90022:25
Maceri cant believe this thing works lol22:25
DocScrutinizerwe just finished a meeting where we sorted last questions about who and how is going to build CSSU-testiing-17.0 (16.8 being recent), and merlin1991 is about to branch a stable version based on 16.8 and cleaned up a bit - it will probably see merges to level T17 prior to first release22:25
Macernice... when that is all said and done i will flash this thing22:26
DocScrutinizerwell, T17 got "announced" by MohammadAG for this weekend22:26
Maceri sure wish the n900 had a charging pad sleeve for any charging pad22:27
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Macerduracell mygrid clip wou.d go right across the cam :(22:27
MacerDocScrutinizer: i look forward to it22:29
Maceri think i wi.. try arm meego out as well22:29
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whatever4everwhere is the skype account password stored on the n900?23:14
merlin1991skype on the n900 is a dark and battery draining thing, better not ask about it on foss channels ;)23:16
Macerin conversations acct settings23:17
Macermerlin1991: is right tho. it is a battery draining whore23:17
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whatever4evermerlin1991: how else would you communicate with skype contacts? Pidgin?23:19
merlin1991from my pc ;)23:19
whatever4everBTW, I hope someone builds the newest pidgin for the n900 soon, as well as the OTR pluggin23:19
whatever4everThe reason we buy an n900 is to do everything with it23:20
whatever4everIncluding turning off TVs in bars23:20
whatever4everto impress women23:20
whatever4everMacer: you can see the pass in cleartext?23:20
Maceri never got the ir to work :-)23:21
Maceri would love to use it as a remote23:21
Maceri dont know? doubt it23:21
DocScrutinizerIR is incredibly weak23:21
Macerlike 2ft weak?23:22
Maceroh. not worth it then23:22
Macernobody in meego-arm answered if n900 meego works :-)23:23
DocScrutinizerI get it to control my TV over a rnage of ~2m if I aim exactly23:23
whatever4everwhy do they put these things in it if they suck?23:23
Macerwhatever4ever: marketing?23:23
whatever4everGod they suck at marketing23:23
Maceror they thought it would have a better usr later23:23
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whatever4everNokia is so damn bad at it. Probably good tech guys though23:23
Macerthey have awesome engineers and their phones are incredibly well built23:24
Macercompared to htc23:24
* DocScrutinizer pondered to pimp the IR LED several times23:24
Maceri am so happy i dont need to use this g2 anymote23:24
whatever4everIf they made some elegant software for universal remove. Like send every off code when you push the off button (so you turn off any tv without configuring it)23:24
Macerthere is an ir led?23:24
DocScrutinizertechnically it could be 10 times as strong as it is23:24
Macerwhatever4ever: people cant write that?23:25
MacerDocScrutinizer: is it a software limiter?23:25
DocScrutinizerwhatever4ever: that's called tvbgone23:25
whatever4everThey can, but if you make the hardware then it should probably come with software that demonstrates teh HW functionality23:25
Macerlike the fm trans23:25
whatever4evertvbgone exists?23:25
whatever4everI waaaaaaaaaaaant23:25
Macerthe fm trans was set artificially low wasnt it?23:26
DocScrutinizerMacer: nope, hw23:26
whatever4everSeriously though, I'm really curious why some things succeed and some fail (and mostly the lessons learned from such events). So we know out of the smart phones the n900 had some of the least R&D funds spent23:26
Macerwhatever4ever: and amazing it is one of the most awesome phones made23:26
Maceri wish someone would write a new ui for it23:27
Macerand ditch hildon23:27
whatever4everDocScrutinizer: I was going to ask you... If you were making some new device... lets say, where you wanted the best coverage in the US, but didn't need much bandwidth or "data" - what would you choose?23:27
MacerDocScrutinizer: is that even possible?23:27
whatever4everThe pager protocol is an option, but the coverage isn't as good as I expected (for two way)23:27
whatever4everMaybe I can get an n950 from my nokia friend23:28
Macerget a sat phone23:28
Macerthat probably has the best coverage23:28
whatever4everno, I'm talking about a service for a cheap device with an antenna that is low cost23:28
whatever4everI was thinking 2g23:28
whatever4everbut the overhead is too high for my conceptual device23:29
bindiwlan and free hotspots23:29
Macercoverage for anything uhf will always depend on towers23:29
Macerexcept sat23:29
Maceromg i want my n900 to finish charging both batteries. it has been months since my other one broke.23:30
whatever4everget an external charger23:30
whatever4everI always carry 3 full bats23:30
Maceri am23:30
DocScrutinizerwhatever4ever: (US device) NFC, seems US carrier world is a daunting and cruel one23:30
Macerhonestly.... just so i dont have to touch the usb port23:31
whatever4everFor sure23:31
whatever4everexactly, NFC23:31
Maceri need a n900 supported charging pad23:31
whatever4everSo with in mind that NFC is good enough, what would you pick?23:31
whatever4everWe're trying to get overhead as low as possible in this concept23:31
DocScrutinizerNFC != near filed comm, here23:31
Maceri thought it meant no fking clue23:32
whatever4ever!= near field?23:32
DocScrutinizermaybe you still need CDMA in USA to get good coverage. OR sth like N9 octoband modem23:33
DocScrutinizeras a lot of mad carriers drop 2G to use the same bands for 3G now23:34
whatever4everAre there any benefits to CDMA? Someone was arguing something, I don't remember... Less power?23:34
DocScrutinizernot really23:34
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whatever4everWould you recommend a specific antenna to use that would allow for use on some long range low bandwidth freq & NFC?23:35
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DocScrutinizersorry you lost me23:35
SpeedEvilNFC is a compleltey seperate radio.23:36
SpeedEvilIt is not related to any radios in the n90023:36
whatever4everI'm talking about the hardware of a device23:37
DocScrutinizerand not suited for voice communication, nor for any mobile communication23:37
whatever4everSharing antenna and chips make it cheaper23:37
whatever4everStuff that works indoors/basements is bad ass23:37
whatever4everThat's why I was thinking about the pager protocols23:37
whatever4everdon't have to transfer much data here23:38
SpeedEvilwhatever4ever: It doesn't work that way.23:38
SpeedEvilSharing antennas and chips does often not make it cheaper.23:38
SpeedEvilEspecially if the frequencies are seperated enough.23:38
whatever4ever(You can recommend a book if you want, that'd be helpful)23:38
SpeedEvilFor a similar reason why your car does not have a power takeoff from the gearbox for the interior fans.23:39
SpeedEvilIt just doesn't work.23:39
SpeedEvil##electronics may be able to point you to a suitable book.23:40
SpeedEvilOr #hamradio23:40
whatever4everYeah, I don't know much EE23:40
whatever4everYou got an n950?23:41
whatever4everI might have to switch to android as my main device when n900 dies23:41
whatever4everHoping some mini comp will come out23:42
SpeedEvilHope so too.23:42
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jaskaill prolly switch to a dumbphone :|23:42
whatever4everflipphones back in!23:42
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whatever4ever*flips the screen of the mini netbook open with thumb*23:42
SpeedEvilI never really used the bits which integrate the phone with the n90023:42
whatever4everI can't do the N9 lack of keyboard23:42
whatever4everThe part that integrates it for me is the fact that it is in one physical object23:43
SpeedEvilA dumbphone, used with a mini-tablet thingy would work OK for me (modulo the whole two devices thing)23:43
SpeedEvilDoubling device count = fail.23:43
whatever4everI wonder why they haven't come out with modular device23:44
whatever4everlike legos23:44
whatever4ever"what an accelerometer?"23:44
whatever4everThat's the red add on right there!23:44
DocScrutinizerdoesn't fly23:44
whatever4everWhy couldn't it?23:44
DocScrutinizertoo much mech overhead#23:45
SpeedEvilModular has costs.23:45
whatever4everI realize it is harder, but that is the direction PC hardware went 20 years ago23:45
whatever4everWe make each part really well and think about how they fit together23:45
SpeedEvilDiddn't I write this down somewhere.23:45
SpeedEvilMaybe not.23:45
SpeedEvilAs an example.23:45
SpeedEvilThe costs of modular.23:45
* DocScrutinizer fetches popcorn23:45
whatever4everDidn't modular decrease costs for x86?23:45
SpeedEvilA 3G modem may have a 3*2cm area of PCB.23:45
SpeedEvilIt's stuck on the 'motherboard'23:46
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SpeedEvilIf you modularise the design, then you need to have a slot or hole in the case, where you can put this. It's got to have a wrap round the modem so it can be safely touched.23:46
DocScrutinizerneeds heatsink23:47
DocScrutinizerantenna plug23:47
SpeedEvilIt's got to have antistatic protection on both sides of the connector - a few dozen components. And decoupling.23:47
SpeedEvilAnd then you runinto the issue that the antenna in the device won't work for the waveband you want.23:47
DocScrutinizerFAT B2B-connectors that can cope with several Ampere of surge current23:47
whatever4everSo it would have to be designed so that all antennae are on the main device with the PCB23:47
SpeedEvilPlus - if you leave 'slack' space in the modem bay, for expansion, you're wasting that space in the first product.23:48
whatever4everwhat about IRs, accelerometers, compasses, etc?23:48
SpeedEvilAn accel is a 3*3*0.8mm chip.23:48
whatever4everI wish I had a book on this stuff entitled "what things are"23:48
SpeedEvilIf it's soldered to the PCB, it takes up that area, and adds maybe $.10 + the accel cost to the design.23:48
SpeedEvil(so $1 total)23:49
SpeedEvilIf it's modularised, that's got to be in a format the user can physically connect it to the phone, it's got to have two connectors, another half dozen components that aren't required, and it makes the mechanical design of the case lots harder.23:49
SpeedEvilPlus, you have the seperate retail costs of selling it to the user.23:50
SpeedEvilIt's going to be really hard to keep the costs for that simple chip on a tiny board to below $10/device, and $.5/device for each phone it's not in.23:50
DocScrutinizerand mere BOM will be ~10$ istead 1$23:50
SpeedEvilIn broad outline. If you modularise the device, it's going to be half the reliability (optimistically), twice the price, twice the volume.23:51
DocScrutinizerprobably the B2B connector is more expensive than the accel chip ;-P23:51
SpeedEviland closing on twice the weight.23:51
DocScrutinizerso leave out the accel chip (3 * 3 * 0.8mm, 1$), add a B2B-connector instead ( 2 * 10 * 1.2mm, 2$) - profit :-D23:53
whatever4everWhat about dongles? Also, how did you learn about this?23:53
SpeedEvilI learned about it by designing stuff at home, and reading lots about lectronics.23:54
whatever4everBut they don't even put a lot of chips in there for the masses because "who needs an FM transmitter, better to have a polished iphone with core func"23:54
DocScrutinizerlearn? read magazines and books for 45 years23:54
whatever4everdongles like external things that connect via bluetooth23:54
whatever4everWhat did you make at home?23:55
SpeedEvilThat is in some ways free - though it adds to battery use, but it means the device is a whole lot more clunky as you need to keep lots of boxes, and charge them all.23:55
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SpeedEvilNot ended up making much - designed various stuff from teeny cameras on.23:55
whatever4everhmm, I wonder how many dongles could work via induction... they'd have to be too close23:56
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whatever4everSo how do we get them to put both 1) a lot of R&D and 2) lots of cool gadgets into a device for people like us?23:58
whatever4evern900 has #2, iphone&android has #123:58
whatever4ever1+2=3 omg23:58
SpeedEvilIt's hard.23:58
SpeedEvilYou need - to make a good stab at a smartphone - several million dollars.23:58
whatever4everAnd I guess the software is another issue23:59
whatever4everLike on the n900 being able to run x86 apps via screen remotely23:59
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SpeedEvilIn some ways, the hardware is the easy part.23:59

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