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| trumee | DocScrutinizer: right, but isnt KP independent of multiboot? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer | you are trying to force your system into bricked state and complain it doesn't work | 00:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | NO, IT IS NOT | 00:00 |
| trumee | this seems to be ok, apt-get -s install multiboot-kernel-power kernel-power=1:2.6.28-10power47 kernel-power-modules=1:2.6.28-10power47 | 00:01 |
| rly | Sicelo: it says that HAM is running, please exit it and press enter... but it isn't running. | 00:01 |
| rly | What is the binary name of HAM? | 00:02 |
| rly | Then I can just do killall and be sure it is done. | 00:02 |
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| Sicelo | don't kill it if u are installing cssu. iirc it says it takes a while | 00:02 |
| Sicelo | trumee: it is worth your while to take it as said. unless u want to re-flash | 00:04 |
| rly | Sicelo: I also read something about being able to use 720p filming on the device. Is that hoax? | 00:05 |
| rly | a hoax? | 00:05 |
| Sicelo | apparently not. but i don't use my device for videos, so idk. haven't tried | 00:06 |
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| rly | Does anyone know which package enabled 720p filming? | 00:07 |
| rly | enables* | 00:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | HAM running? wait til it finished | 00:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | can take 5..10 min | 00:08 |
| rly | DocScrutinizer: did that and the upgrade worked, but now it is just apparently doing nothing. | 00:08 |
| rly | browserd uses 98% cpu again. | 00:09 |
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| rly | Can I kill that one? | 00:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | check your CPU load - as long as some apt-worker is pushing CPU to 100% yu want to wait for it finishing | 00:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, kill browserd | 00:09 |
| rly | Is there some replacement/update for browserd? | 00:10 |
| rly | I already killed it three times today. | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | and say "thank you" to the designer of that webpage with flash/JS | 00:10 |
| rly | DocScrutinizer: all flash causes that or just some flash? | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | some poorly written JS and some flash | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | most flash | 00:11 |
| rly | But I wasn't even running a browser anymore. | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | flash doesn't stop when the browser loses focus | 00:12 |
| rly | Or does it keep running in the background? | 00:12 |
| rly | Why not?! | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | dunno | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe to make your youtube music not stop while you check mail/whatever? | 00:13 |
| rly | DocScrutinizer: but if I kill the browser window including youtube, then youtube also stops. | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | :shrug: | 00:14 |
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| rly | So, to have something in the background running when nothing is visually there, that doesn't make sense. | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | orly? | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | killall browserd | 00:15 |
| NIN101 | ..but not as root :-). | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | and get cpu load applet! | 00:15 |
| rly | DocScrutinizer: I am not following. | 00:15 |
| rly | DocScrutinizer: I am a screen user, if you think I don't know the usefulness of running stuff truly in the background. | 00:15 |
| rly | (or the tons of other daemons that do something useful on a real system) | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | I am not the browserd developer | 00:16 |
| rly | DocScrutinizer: ok, I thought you where making some point. | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | so no use in arguing with me about usefulness of brwserd behaviour | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's a "known" problem | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | at least I know it | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | also from my desktop PC | 00:17 |
| rly | So, has Nokia completely burned all maemo code and are they going Windows only, or is that just a marketing gimmick? | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | on my desktop I frequently kill nspluginviewer processes, on N900 sometimes I need to killall nrowserd | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | browserd* | 00:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | NIN101: why not as root? | 00:19 |
| rly | Upgrade complete \o/ | 00:19 |
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| NIN101 | DocScrutinizer: well it rebooted my device, but it was -9. | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | umm | 00:21 |
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| NIN101 | interesting, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=926k0ih6 you need to do it several times. | 00:31 |
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| NIN101 | until it reboots. | 00:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | dsmetool? yeah that's known | 00:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | NIN101: dsmetool --help -> >> -t --start-restart=<cmd> Start a process (on process exit, restart max N times, then do SW reset)<< also see -c --max-count=N and -T --count-time=N | 01:29 |
| NIN101 | DocScrutinizer: thx. | 01:31 |
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| Hurrian | i've been wondering about /sbin/preinit on the n900 | 01:46 |
| Hurrian | a large part of it is a bootmenu | 01:46 |
| Hurrian | which we never see on the n900 | 01:46 |
| Hurrian | and all it seems to actually do is mount filesystems and boot | 01:46 |
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| Robot101 | how can I play speex files on the n900? | 01:59 |
| SpeedEvil | mplayer would be an option. | 01:59 |
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| LaoLang_cool | I can't understand why vim on maemo missing 'autochdir' feature... | 02:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: AIUI the preinit boot menu is for boting with "console" | 02:37 |
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| LaoLang_cool | hello, I'm trying to compile an app on N900, while doing ./configure, there is an error: checking whether the C copiler works.. no | 03:31 |
| LaoLang_cool | How to solve it? I have installed gcc base | 03:31 |
| ShadowJK | build-essential | 03:32 |
| LaoLang_cool | ShadowJK: I can't find such pkg on N900... | 03:33 |
| ShadowJK | I'd imagine it'd be in sdk tools like gcc | 03:33 |
| LaoLang_cool | apt-cache search build-essential returns nothing | 03:33 |
| ShadowJK | but it's probably not such a good idea to be installing stuff from there anyways | 03:34 |
| ShadowJK | probably libc6-dev is the most important missing piece | 03:34 |
| LaoLang_cool | ShadowJK: I can't find a bin version for n900 of the app I want, so I have to try to compile it :( | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | errhm | 03:35 |
| LaoLang_cool | The pkg name is fcitx | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | that'smmaemo and not gentoo ;-) | 03:36 |
| LaoLang_cool | A chinese input method | 03:36 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: I'm missing a suckless input method on n900, hard to use without it :( | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's actually discouraged to compile on device | 03:36 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: so what's the recommended way? | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | the PC based SDK, called scratchbox | 03:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's actually not even enough free space on a sane filesystem on N900 to install all the needed bits for proper building of maemo packages | 03:38 |
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| ShadowJK | Yeah especially if you need lots of -dev packages you'll run out of space quite fast | 03:41 |
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| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: I'm not programmer, so it's very likely that I failed to compile it successfully, I wonder if there is somewhere that I could make a request or let others try to build an app for n900? | 03:46 |
| LaoLang_cool | disconnected... | 03:46 |
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| merlin1991 | LaoLang_cool: what is the application in question? | 03:52 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: a common Chinese input method, but there's no build on n900 | 03:53 |
| LaoLang_cool | its name is fcitx | 03:53 |
| LaoLang_cool | it's sad that I have no dev enviroment and knowledge to build it :( | 03:54 |
| merlin1991 | LaoLang_cool: got a link somewhere? | 03:55 |
| merlin1991 | I could try to build it | 03:55 |
| merlin1991 | (I have a complete scratchbox set up) | 03:57 |
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| merlin1991 | LaoLang_cool: got a link to the projects page? | 04:00 |
| merlin1991 | I could try to build it | 04:00 |
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| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: sorry, I'm got disconnected again, I will | 04:01 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: It's a Chinese website: http://www.fcitx.org/main/?q=node/9 | 04:02 |
| LaoLang_cool | The file is: fcitx-3.6.3.tar.bz2 2010-02-13 | 04:02 |
| merlin1991 | is it the same as http://code.google.com/p/fcitx/ | 04:02 |
| merlin1991 | ? | 04:03 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: yes, but the page you give has newer version (above 4), it depends pango, so I guess it's harder to build than old version 3 | 04:04 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: Another app I'm missing on N900 is a cli dictionary, I'm using sdcv, the website is at http://sdcv.sourceforge.net/ | 04:04 |
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| LaoLang_cool | I think it's much more easy to compile than fcitx :) | 04:04 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: and thank you for your so kind! | 04:05 |
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| merlin1991 | LaoLang_cool: wich resulting file do you actually need? | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: meanwhile you may want to have an informative glance at http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation | 04:12 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: .deb? I'm new on N900 and maemo... | 04:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: esp http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK | 04:12 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: if it works fine, could you please upload it into official maemo repo? | 04:13 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: thank you, will read it! | 04:13 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: My email is vanopen AT gmail DOT com | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation | 04:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | better ^^^ | 04:15 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: thank you, vmplayer + img is fit for me :) | 04:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, another good method, though the vm images need an update to latest after starting them, as the ones deployed are really obsolete - as far as I know | 04:17 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: Thank you for notice, I guess the speed of update is fast on pc | 04:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yeah, only takes hours ;-) | 04:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | honestly I dunno, installing a generic scratchbox maemo SDK takes some hours though | 04:22 |
| LaoLang_cool | hours, oh.. | 04:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | but maybe I confuse things here, as I dealt with installing kernel sources and building kernel, and both took quite several hours, incl download though | 04:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | du -hs /scratchbox -> 5,4G /scratchbox | 04:26 |
| merlin1991 | arf debhelper doesn't support bz2 | 04:27 |
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| LaoLang_cool | I'm curious that why vim on maemo doesn't support 'autochdir'? | 04:29 |
| LaoLang_cool | It supports everything I need except this minor feature, don't know if it's because some technology reason | 04:31 |
| LaoLang_cool | tar on maemo doesn't support bz2 too.. | 04:32 |
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| ShadowJK | tar is busybox | 04:35 |
| SpeedEvil | tar is busybox. | 04:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | busybox is crap | 04:35 |
| LaoLang_cool | oh | 04:35 |
| SpeedEvil | Busybox is great. | 04:35 |
| LaoLang_cool | got it, thanks | 04:35 |
| SpeedEvil | For what it is. | 04:35 |
| SpeedEvil | Which isn't an interactive shell. | 04:35 |
| LaoLang_cool | But my shell says it's ash, not busybox | 04:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, with tar that has no bz2 support | 04:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | believe me it's busybox | 04:36 |
| ShadowJK | i think "gnutar" is in repos | 04:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: btw vim = busybox | 04:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~messybox | 04:37 |
| infobot | messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils | 04:37 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: I install vim via apt-get install vim, so it's busybox too? | 04:37 |
| ShadowJK | it's not | 04:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not? | 04:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | IroN900:~# ll `which more` | 04:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 2010-06-23 06:13 /bin/more -> busybox | 04:39 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: vim isn't more... | 04:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | err no vim here | 04:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah I know | 04:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | was unrelated | 04:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | IroN900:~# ll `which vi` | 04:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-06-23 06:19 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi | 04:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | IroN900:~# ll /etc/alternatives/vi | 04:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2010-06-23 06:19 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /bin/busybox | 04:40 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: vim is not vi | 04:41 |
| LaoLang_cool | I got it :) | 04:41 |
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| jonwil | I think I may just have a set of source files that is functionally identical to the Maemo5 browserd daemon :) | 04:58 |
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| jonwil | Just testing it now | 04:59 |
| pawky | hello, does anyone have any idea how to reset passwd? | 04:59 |
| pawky | i f-- upp the root password... :-( | 04:59 |
| pawky | tried hard reset, soft reset with no luck.. | 05:00 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: is it going on? :) | 05:01 |
| merlin1991 | kinda | 05:01 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: cool~ | 05:01 |
| pawky | (what I meant is how to restore the /etc/passwd file) | 05:01 |
| LaoLang_cool | pawky: passwd <user name> ? | 05:02 |
| pawky | ? | 05:02 |
| pawky | ahh.. | 05:03 |
| pawky | no.. doesnt work.. its the root password thats Fucked up... | 05:03 |
| pawky | so i need to reset the /etc/passwd file.. :-( | 05:03 |
| pawky | But maybe I should ask this in#harmattan? | 05:05 |
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| merlin1991 | LaoLang_cool: well it compiled, but it doesn't run | 05:13 |
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| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: sorry, I disconnected again | 05:28 |
| merlin1991 | fcitx did compile, but it doesn't run (ui crashes) | 05:28 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: hmmm | 05:29 |
| LaoLang_cool | what about sdcv? | 05:29 |
| merlin1991 | I'll have a look at sdcv tomorrow | 05:29 |
| merlin1991 | it's past 4 am here, I gotta catch some sleep :) | 05:29 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: thank you very much! My email is vanopen AT gmail DOT com, if I'm not here, please send it to me | 05:29 |
| LaoLang_cool | merlin1991: have a good dream, too late there | 05:30 |
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| * jonwil wishes Nokia would stop putting links to private bug trackers, repos etc in public documentation and bug reports | 06:26 | |
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| Macer | my n900 made it to chicago | 08:30 |
| Macer | hopefully i get it tomorrow or the next day. that would be awesome | 08:30 |
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| Macer | definitely monday if not saturday | 08:31 |
| Macer | wow. figured travel time from hk would be a lot longer | 08:31 |
| RST38bis | heya macer | 08:37 |
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| Macer | RST38h: good evening | 08:38 |
| Macer | or whatever you're on | 08:39 |
| RST38h | moorning here | 08:39 |
| Macer | mourning ;-) | 08:39 |
| Macer | i cant wait to get my n900 | 08:39 |
| Macer | i am disappointed i cant find a pad charger that is compatible with it | 08:40 |
| Macer | i think the closest would be a duracell mygrid since it has a microusb clip on power receiver. that sucks. | 08:40 |
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| LaoLang_cool | How to invoke web app from xterm? | 09:27 |
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| Sicelo | simplest is to use phone-control ... a really nice package | 09:40 |
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| LaoLang_cool | Hi | 10:15 |
| psycho_oreos | hai | 10:15 |
| LaoLang_cool | Is there some way to configure key binding globally to run a cmd | 10:15 |
| LaoLang_cool | ? | 10:15 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: hi, you're always online | 10:15 |
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| psycho_oreos | not that I know of, you could try with vkb editor if you want to bind a hardware keyboard button to run a cmd I suppose | 10:16 |
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| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, pure coincidence :) | 10:16 |
| LaoLang_cool | Another question, how to run apps in app list in xterm? | 10:17 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: thanks all the same, but that's not what I want, I want a key binding :) | 10:17 |
| LaoLang_cool | Any call recorder software on maemo? | 10:17 |
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| LaoLang_cool | And money management software | 10:18 |
| psycho_oreos | call recorder software = recaller | 10:18 |
| psycho_oreos | apps in app list in xterm? | 10:18 |
| psycho_oreos | also define what do you mean exactly by key binding? which keybinding? hardware or software? | 10:19 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: apps in app list means apps in the application menu :) | 10:20 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: keybinding is like Ctrl-r | 10:20 |
| LaoLang_cool | For example, I want to run web app in xterm | 10:20 |
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| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, apps in app list would probably require creating .desktop icons? | 10:21 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, not sure about that but hildon-desktop is what I would be looking into... matan made a custom hildon-desktop which allows one to press certain keyboard sequences to do specific things. Since then his hack has been integrated and polished for use in CSSU | 10:22 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: I mean I want to run app in xterm, for example, I want to launch web browser in xterm, don't know what should I type in xterm | 10:22 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: thanks, that would be a starting point, I will look into it when I'm get more familiar with n900 :) | 10:23 |
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| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, you just type in the name of the program in order to execute it, iinm the stock browser is called microb | 10:24 |
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| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: $microb produces "microb: not found" ... | 10:24 |
| Sicelo | 09:40 < Sicelo> simplest is to use phone-control ... a really nice package | 10:25 |
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| Sicelo | https://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control << has the info that package is based on, if u want to type directly | 10:26 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: recorder is, ..., just recorder..., I want to record the phone calling | 10:27 |
| LaoLang_cool | automatically | 10:27 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, note that I said recaller, not recorder | 10:28 |
| LaoLang_cool | oh! | 10:28 |
| Sicelo | heh, he said 'recaller' which can record every sound from any bus inside N900. if u want to do it manually still, here - http://wiki.maemo.org/Recording_phonecalls | 10:28 |
| LaoLang_cool | My faulse, sorry | 10:28 |
| psycho_oreos | and also read what Sicelo said, my device is lagging pretty badly so I cannot find the exact name of the program to run microb from xterem | 10:29 |
| psycho_oreos | s/xterem/xterm/ | 10:29 |
| infobot | psycho_oreos meant: and also read what Sicelo said, my device is lagging pretty badly so I cannot find the exact name of the program to run microb from xterm | 10:29 |
| Sicelo | psycho_oreos: network lag, or system lag? | 10:30 |
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| psycho_oreos | Sicelo, system lag, 4 days uptime and it seems to take awfully lots of time doing simple things. I guess when you run microb numerous times, osso-mediaplayer and bluetooth it seems to lag the device over time | 10:31 |
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| psycho_oreos | the irony is that with my other N900 (with SIM card but the device is not used heavily as my main N900) seems to have the same amount of lag after 50+ days of uptime | 10:31 |
| psycho_oreos | in other words, for 4 days of lag from my main N900 is equivalent to roughly 50+ days of lag from my spare N900 with very similar configuration | 10:32 |
| Sicelo | weird. nice device though, and i envy u ;) | 10:32 |
| ShadowJK | psycho_oreos, it's swap fragmentation | 10:33 |
| psycho_oreos | it is a nice device but it has its flaws.. even with all that I still accepted and provided my N900 with two other siblings ;) you may envy me all you like but I still envy N950 owners more :D | 10:33 |
| psycho_oreos | ShadowJK, o.O so if I adjust vm_swappiness for instance it would help? | 10:33 |
| ShadowJK | Not really | 10:34 |
| jonwil | ok, time to post the latest results of my reverse engineering efforts | 10:34 |
| psycho_oreos | hmm, now I'm thinking of stupid things, like make sure nothing else is running (GUI programs-wise) and quickly turn off swap before turning swap back on | 10:35 |
| ShadowJK | Or, with swappiness high it's frequent amounts of "small" lag, with swappiness low it's infrequent amounts of huge lag. | 10:35 |
| psycho_oreos | haha sounds like a huge trade-off either way | 10:36 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah, I normally have swap on a swap partition on microsd. I use "iostat -m" from sysstat to monitor the amount of megabytes written to swap. When that is > size of swap partition, I swapon emmc swap again, swapoff microsd, etc. | 10:36 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: How to run recaller? I've installed it | 10:36 |
| Sicelo | it's a widget | 10:37 |
| psycho_oreos | hmm that is interesting idea actually, and that would sort of temporarily alleviate the issue I suppose? | 10:37 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, what Sicelo said | 10:37 |
| ShadowJK | psycho_oreos, for another 4 days | 10:37 |
| jonwil | Could write a program to automatically detect that and switch swaps as needed | 10:38 |
| psycho_oreos | ShadowJK, that's not too bad at all considering that advanced-power sometimes fails to work upon reboots, not to mention the amount of time it takes for my device to reboot as well | 10:38 |
| LaoLang_cool | Sicelo: I tried to add a widget in desktop, but the list doesn't have recaller too | 10:38 |
| LaoLang_cool | oh! | 10:38 |
| Sicelo | heh :P | 10:38 |
| LaoLang_cool | I find it has there... | 10:38 |
| psycho_oreos | jonwil, I was thinking of hacking a quick script together but I constantly pondered the thoughts of wearing out the microSD more | 10:38 |
| ShadowJK | jonwil, yeah I use a script | 10:39 |
| ShadowJK | I've never really worn out a microsd.. they've all died from what appears to be firmware bugs | 10:39 |
| ShadowJK | ;p | 10:40 |
| jonwil | I have a list of about 27 different things I may do related to the N900 | 10:40 |
| jonwil | reverse engineering things that is | 10:40 |
| psycho_oreos | correction, advanced-power works every now and then.. when it doesn't work its annoying that you get a grey battery icon with no indications of device is either charging or charged, etc. Apart from BME of course indicating via LED light on that lp5523 sensor. This is with advanced-power from extras-devel | 10:40 |
| LaoLang_cool | and, what about a money management software? | 10:41 |
| psycho_oreos | ShadowJK, firmware bugs? ever owned TopRam microsd? just out of curiousity | 10:41 |
| ShadowJK | no it's not available here | 10:41 |
| jonwil | I know of no money management software for the N900 | 10:41 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, I've only tried one but I don't know if its good enough to be recommended. All it does is you input your income and daily expenses and it makes a nice graph, etc | 10:42 |
| psycho_oreos | ShadowJK, ahh bugger :/ | 10:42 |
| LaoLang_cool | ShadowJK: you talked to me? | 10:42 |
| Sicelo | toshl, and b-something LaoLang_cool | 10:42 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, doubt it | 10:42 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: oh, I think plain txt + R is a way | 10:43 |
| LaoLang_cool | Sicelo: what do you mean? I can't understand | 10:43 |
| jonwil | anyone heard of projects.maemo.org or can tell me what it is? | 10:44 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, plain txt + R? | 10:45 |
| LaoLang_cool | Is it a built-in way to take screenshot? | 10:45 |
| Sicelo | find toshl in HAM. the other one will be in same category, starts with a B... but they're all as psycho_oreos said. nothing fancy like GnuCash | 10:45 |
| psycho_oreos | jonwil, I personally never heard of it | 10:45 |
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| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: record my expense then use R to import and analyse the data :) Geek way | 10:45 |
| jonwil | google shows that this "projects.maemo.org" is running password protected svn repository and also a matching protected git repo | 10:46 |
| Sicelo | aha, Buddy... | 10:46 |
| psycho_oreos | LaoLang_cool, ahh I never used R before | 10:46 |
| LaoLang_cool | Sicelo: got it, thanks | 10:46 |
| Sicelo | what is R? | 10:46 |
| psycho_oreos | some money management software I guess *shrugs* | 10:47 |
| jonwil | I think R is a programming language | 10:47 |
| jonwil | or a toolking | 10:47 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: Sicelo https://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control | 10:47 |
| LaoLang_cool | http://www.r-project.org/ | 10:47 |
| LaoLang_cool | But I failed to install r-base on maemo | 10:47 |
| LaoLang_cool | It says: r-recommended is broken here | 10:48 |
| LaoLang_cool | what about yours? | 10:48 |
| Sicelo | same | 10:49 |
| LaoLang_cool | hmmm :( | 10:49 |
| jonwil | aha, looks like projects.maemo.org is a place where development of things that arent developed in the open happens | 10:50 |
| jonwil | hence the password protection :P | 10:50 |
| psycho_oreos | or even experiments, maybe even secret stuff from nokia too *shrugs* who knows :) | 10:50 |
| jonwil | hmmm, what to work on next now that my browser-daemon work is completed | 10:52 |
| LaoLang_cool | where does n900 store the tarball of the pkg I've installed? I want to back them up | 10:53 |
| psycho_oreos | they're not tarballs, they are compressed fakeroots known as deb files | 10:53 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: oh, so where can I find these .deb files on my N900? | 10:54 |
| LaoLang_cool | Or n900 will delete them after installing pkgs | 10:54 |
| psycho_oreos | and by default N900 doesn't store them, unless if you use FAM and/or you enable red pill mode with HAM and unchecked boxes for cleaning out apt cache | 10:54 |
| LaoLang_cool | ? | 10:54 |
| psycho_oreos | ^ | 10:54 |
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| psycho_oreos | apt-get is also another way, along with synaptics. apt-get stores the downloaded debs in the usual location: /var/cache/apt/archives. Synaptics may store elsewhere but may also delete it by default if you have not bothered to check the configs. FAM also does it by default but the setting is not locked away like in HAM | 10:56 |
| * jonwil wishes bug 3836 had been fixed | 10:56 | |
| povbot` | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/3836 Move MicroB to an open development process | 10:56 |
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| psycho_oreos | jonwil, I suppose timeless (who's hardly here these days) would happen to know a few things about microb | 10:58 |
| LaoLang_cool | n900 is so nice | 10:59 |
| jonwil | I dont think its info that's missing though, whats missing is code. And that is up to the | 10:59 |
| psycho_oreos | in its own ways, yes | 10:59 |
| jonwil | that is probably up to the lawyers :( | 11:00 |
| psycho_oreos | heh as always | 11:00 |
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| * jonwil has "corporate lawyers" on his list of people, companies and inventions that should vanish off the face of the earth | 11:00 | |
| psycho_oreos | the eradication of patents would be a good thing to target for starters *ducks* | 11:01 |
| jonwil | yeah | 11:01 |
| psycho_oreos | too many patent trolls | 11:01 |
| jonwil | actually no, dont get rid of patents | 11:02 |
| jonwil | get rid of bogus patents | 11:02 |
| jonwil | and make it easier for someone with prior art to get the patent overturned | 11:02 |
| jonwil | Plenty of patents that are genuinely worthy of existing | 11:03 |
| psycho_oreos | that in itself also would pose bad idea.. what if the organisation for instance applied for the patent and was granted but never bothered to apply the technology utilising that patent? If you remove bogus patents, it may also mean unused patents which may force organisations to either implement it or never bother applying the patent in the first place. | 11:03 |
| jonwil | I mean "bogus" in the sense of patents that should never have been granted in the first place | 11:04 |
| * psycho_oreos can now think of two apple's patents which can be quickly turned around and be placed into effect.. sure that would piss people off but then again | 11:04 | |
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| jonwil | if the invention is original and unique enough to be worth registering, it deserves protection regardless of whether its being used in the real world or not | 11:05 |
| psycho_oreos | yeah though the definition of that is pretty vague, I mean such as what defines it should never have been granted? there are lots of patents which are not really used at all regardless if it was never meant to be patented. | 11:05 |
| jonwil | The problem is that patents are being granted for things that are not original or novel enough to be deserving of protection | 11:06 |
| psycho_oreos | I mean take for instance, apple applied patent for some sort of infrared technology to be implemented in areas where their iphone/ipad users cannot use those device to record via camera. The owners could do everything else at such venue with such anti-home recording patent but just not record live shows. If lets say you tried to remove bogus patents which would inherently affect that imagine the all the shenanigans that follows afterwards | 11:08 |
| LaoLang_cool | Which shell do you use? | 11:09 |
| LaoLang_cool | bash, tcsh | 11:09 |
| LaoLang_cool | ash | 11:09 |
| psycho_oreos | /bin/bash myself | 11:09 |
| * ShadowJK uses busybox! | 11:09 | |
| psycho_oreos | there's also zsh | 11:09 |
| LaoLang_cool | ShadowJK: geek does | 11:09 |
| ShadowJK | changing your login shell is probably a bad idea, btw | 11:09 |
| psycho_oreos | I use busybox-power tools though. I hardly use ash (part of busybox) unless if I absolutely have to | 11:10 |
| LaoLang_cool | ShadowJK: which file is the equivalent .bash_profile for ash? | 11:10 |
| ShadowJK | no idea | 11:10 |
| psycho_oreos | .profile | 11:10 |
| Hurrian | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2011-09-25 13:39 /bin/bash -> /bin/bash4 | 11:10 |
| LaoLang_cool | ShadowJK: so you use ash with no any customize? | 11:10 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 11:11 |
| jonwil | That Apple patent, it doesn't matter if Apple are using it or not what matters is if its an original invention or not. Its hard for me to tell if that particular invention is novel enough to deserve protection or not since I am not an expert in the field. | 11:11 |
| ShadowJK | I have one screen session that I enter a few aliases in at startup | 11:11 |
| psycho_oreos | changing your login shell isn't as much of a bad idea as deleting /bin/sh symlink and create a new symlink to the shell of your choice | 11:11 |
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| psycho_oreos | jonwil, heh neither am I but I can imagine eradicating bogus patents could create huge uproar | 11:12 |
| LaoLang_cool | psycho_oreos: yes, it's .profile, thank you! | 11:13 |
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| psycho_oreos | no worries, also I would recommend what I said about symlinking /bin/sh to shell of your choice :| I learnt that the hard way (bootloops) | 11:14 |
| psycho_oreos | wouldn't* | 11:14 |
| psycho_oreos | ffs | 11:14 |
| LaoLang_cool | ash is ok enough :) | 11:14 |
| LaoLang_cool | for me | 11:14 |
| psycho_oreos | ShadowJK, maybe you could try that as well.. creating .profile and adding your favourite aliases in there | 11:15 |
| ShadowJK | I just do alias swapon=/home/user/swapon | 11:15 |
| ShadowJK | or something like that | 11:15 |
| psycho_oreos | ahh | 11:15 |
| psycho_oreos | I was thinking of having to do that as a routine would be a bit of a pita :) | 11:16 |
| ShadowJK | one every two months | 11:16 |
| ShadowJK | once* | 11:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | bash | 11:16 |
| pyhimys | this maybe a stupid question, but what does n9 developer mode do? enable sshd? | 11:17 |
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| inz | pyhimys, that and adds new usb connection mode and installs terminal, and more | 11:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | ash executes bash profile though! http://paste.debian.net/142595/ | 11:18 |
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| pyhimys | inz: thanks! Is there a list of things it does? | 11:20 |
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| pyhimys | I didn't find anything on google. My google-fu might be lacking :( | 11:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer | pyhimys: N9/harmattan related questions please in #harmattan -> /topic | 11:21 |
| pyhimys | DocScrutinizer: just noticed, i'll ask there, sorry about the inconvenience | 11:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | no inconvenience, but you'll get better (or at least more likely any) answer there | 11:22 |
| jonwil | psycho_oreos, I suspect anything timeless may have that's of any value to the community is stuff he cant share. | 11:22 |
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| psycho_oreos | jonwil, then again he is pretty much the one responsible for microb developments. Sure he may have to hold secrets but I'm sure not all of it is a secret :) | 11:25 |
| jonwil | unless he can somehow magically make tablet-browser-source.tar.gz appear from thin air I doubt there is much information we could glean from him :P | 11:27 |
| jonwil | even a proper neteal.h file would be nice but again, its not going to happen :( | 11:28 |
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| Sicelo | timeless is with BB now, iirc | 11:29 |
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| Hurrian | wasnt someone working on a replacement for tablet-browser-ui? | 11:31 |
| jonwil | no idea | 11:31 |
| jonwil | All the evidence I have suggests that Nokia does not want people talking to browserd and would rather they embed the browser widget directly :) | 11:32 |
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| jonwil | But thats not going to stop me posting my browser-neteal-dev package :P | 11:32 |
| ShadowJK | having gecko "updated" would be nice, but I imagine that's easier said than done | 11:33 |
| jonwil | I dont see it being all that hard, all the pieces are there. And none of the interfaces used to talk to gecko (browser-eal or the browserd dbus interface) are using any gecko internals. | 11:34 |
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| jonwil | Main issue would be if closed-source gecko addins (i.e. Flash) are broken by any upgrade | 11:35 |
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| psycho_oreos | ShadowJK, I don't suppose when your device has had 4 days uptime it had hildon-home eating up loads of CPU cycles? | 11:52 |
| ShadowJK | nope | 11:52 |
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| psycho_oreos | hmm crap :/ I'm facing this same old issue again and I'm guessing there's a really buggy widget somewhere that is constantly making hildon-home constantly do syscalls for get_timeofday | 11:54 |
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| ruskie | hmm interesting my n900 has been off the cell network for a while... odd | 11:55 |
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| ruskie | hmm interesting can't even get to the Phone settings applet | 11:57 |
| LaoLang_cool | hi, what about multi clipboard buffer? | 11:57 |
| * ruskie wonders if he maybe put the thing into flight mode | 11:58 | |
| LaoLang_cool | so I can copy two things then paste any of them in any order I like | 11:58 |
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| LaoLang_cool | maybe it's called multi copy | 11:59 |
| Sicelo | check out clipboard-manager. i haven't used it thoug | 12:04 |
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| Sicelo | and cipman | 12:05 |
| Sicelo | s/ip/lip/ | 12:05 |
| infobot | Sicelo meant: and clipman | 12:05 |
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| LaoLang_cool | hmm, clipman is multi copy, no multi paste | 12:32 |
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| gry | Hi, I have a '/scratchbox' on my desktop system after installing something Maemo-related a few months ago; I don't remember the exact instructions that I followed. How do I properly uninstall it? | 13:05 |
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| mece | browserd open source!! | 13:09 |
| pigeon | is there a complete/flashable image for the n900 21.2011.38-1? | 13:09 |
| mece | I wonder if we could have microb on N9 now... | 13:12 |
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| pigeon | what is the browser on the n9? | 13:13 |
| mece | grob | 13:13 |
| mece | webkit2 based | 13:13 |
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| gry | (For example, I have a shortcut to '/usr/local/bin/start_xephyr.sh' at the Desktop, and it's labeled 'Maemo SDK' - so simply removing the '/scratchbox' directory is likely not enough) | 13:14 |
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| jonwil | We cant have microb on the N9 | 13:17 |
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| jonwil | because the UI bits are closed source | 13:18 |
| jonwil | and GTK based | 13:18 |
| jonwil | Porting "microb" to the N9/N950 wont happen | 13:18 |
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| jonwil | Porting Gecko to the N9/N950 is possible if you can come up with a QT backend | 13:18 |
| jonwil | and writing a UI to talk to that gecko engine is also possible | 13:19 |
| pigeon | is n9 running X? or qt/qte like? | 13:19 |
| jonwil | N9 is running x | 13:19 |
| pigeon | how about a n900/maemo chroot then? | 13:20 |
| jonwil | Thats also not possible | 13:20 |
| jonwil | there are too many hardware differences in the N9/N950 | 13:20 |
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| jonwil | browserd being open source (which was my work btw) makes it easier to replace Gecko with a newer version | 13:22 |
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| jonwil | well in theory it does | 13:26 |
| jonwil | as long as the new version doesnt break the closed-source bits like Flash | 13:27 |
| merlin1991 | pigeon: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#Un-installation | 13:28 |
| merlin1991 | sry pigeon wrong highlight | 13:28 |
| merlin1991 | gry ^^ | 13:28 |
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| gry | ? | 13:37 |
| gry | Thank you. | 13:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | gry: rm /scratchbox see http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation TOP | 13:38 |
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| gry | DocScrutinizer: "There is currently no text in this page"? | 13:41 |
| gry | err | 13:41 |
| gry | Thank you, too. | 13:42 |
| gry | ... | 13:42 |
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| gry | I already did "sudo rm -rf /scratchbox" like http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#Un-installation said. | 13:43 |
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| gry | DocScrutinizer, How do I proceed? | 13:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | gry: well, either your scratchbox wasn't started, or you already killed your system | 13:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | a `mount` will show you if there are bindmounts of /proc /dev etc to /scratchbox/* | 13:46 |
| jonwil | hmmm, what to work on next? :P | 13:46 |
| jonwil | I am pleased with the browserd work, it took a fair bit of effort to get things right | 13:47 |
| ruskie | http://www.reghardware.com/2011/11/04/nokia_ceo_talks_up_windows_8_tablet_opportunity/ | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | jr@halley:~/Documents/N900/backup/IroN900> mount|grep scratch | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | /scratchbox on /scratchbox/users/jr/scratchbox type none (rw,bind) | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | /tmp on /scratchbox/users/jr/tmp type none (rw,bind) | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | /proc on /scratchbox/users/jr/proc type none (rw,bind) | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | /dev on /scratchbox/users/jr/dev type none (rw,bind) | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | ... | 13:47 |
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| pigeon | jonwil: is that an open request to everyone? ;) | 13:49 |
| gry | DocScrutinizer, http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1373564 is ok? | 13:50 |
| jonwil | if you have things for me to reverse engineer, speak up | 13:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | gry: yes | 13:50 |
| SpeedEvil | jonwil: Can you reverse engineer Nokia, so we can try to fix the more annoying bugs? | 13:51 |
| jonwil | speedevil: :P | 13:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | LOL -> Microsoft Security Advisory (2639658): Vulnerability in TrueType Font Parsing Could Allow Elevation of Privilege http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/advisory/2639658 | 13:54 |
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| ZogG | MohammadAG, ping | 13:56 |
| jonwil | so yeah what should I work on next? | 13:57 |
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| jonwil | might try to clone tablet-browser-view-test | 14:12 |
| Macer | wow i am way ahead in my bills this month.. it's nice | 14:12 |
| Macer | :) | 14:12 |
| jonwil | seems like the perfect way to handle a web browser in your app | 14:12 |
| jonwil | tablet-browser-view looks like it does some of the good things for you :) | 14:12 |
| SpeedEvil | jonwil: OMG! I just read the 'new web browser' post. :) | 14:12 |
| SpeedEvil | Congrats! | 14:12 |
| SpeedEvil | (I know there would be lots of work) | 14:12 |
| Macer | you made a new web browser? | 14:12 |
| SpeedEvil | No. | 14:12 |
| jonwil | nope | 14:12 |
| Macer | uhm.... you are making one? :) | 14:13 |
| jonwil | nope | 14:13 |
| Macer | you need one? | 14:13 |
| jonwil | why do you ask?> | 14:13 |
| jonwil | You got one? | 14:13 |
| jonwil | What I did was I took some code for an old version of the maemo browserd daemon and fixed it up to match the N900 version | 14:14 |
| Macer | why? | 14:14 |
| Macer | was there something wrong with the new one? | 14:14 |
| jonwil | well the stock one is closed-source | 14:14 |
| jonwil | so I created something thats open | 14:15 |
| Macer | oooooh. i see. fair enough. makes sense | 14:15 |
| jonwil | so people can change it | 14:15 |
| Macer | it is nice to see that there are people still working on cssu | 14:15 |
| Macer | make a new desktop that uses the sgx and the world will be a perfect place heh | 14:15 |
| Robot101 | jonwil: did you see the port we did of GtkWebKit to the N810 EAL? | 14:15 |
| Robot101 | jonwil: if you've got an OSS NetEAL version you could resurrect that engine port | 14:16 |
| Robot101 | jonwil: it's pretty fast :) | 14:16 |
| jonwil | no, where is that? | 14:16 |
| Macer | for the love of God.. no gtk!! | 14:16 |
| * Macer hides | 14:16 | |
| Robot101 | ...? | 14:16 |
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| Robot101 | the N900 - uses quite a lot of Gtk... | 14:16 |
| Macer | i know. it is a shame. | 14:16 |
| Macer | maemo was moving away from gtk (which was awesome) in favor of qt.. but unfortunately ... well... we all know the story | 14:17 |
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| Macer | gtk needs to be abandoned by the world | 14:17 |
| Macer | it is like watching the world use motif still | 14:17 |
| derf | You wouldn't say that if you'd ever actually used Motif. | 14:18 |
| Macer | :-) | 14:18 |
| derf | Or worse, written code for it. | 14:18 |
| jonwil | so where is this GtkWebKit for the N810? | 14:19 |
| Macer | heh... i was just using a similie | 14:19 |
| jaska | i have read code written for motif, i am thankful for not ever having to write :D | 14:19 |
| Macer | jaska: i would hope you would say the same for gtk | 14:19 |
| Robot101 | jonwil: http://cgit.collabora.com/git/webkit-eal.git/ | 14:20 |
| Macer | python and perl need to go as well | 14:20 |
| jaska | macer: i detest gui toolkits in general :) | 14:20 |
| Macer | go straight to hell | 14:20 |
| Robot101 | Macer: you should get over this technology thing | 14:20 |
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| Robot101 | the problem isn't any given technology, it's changing the technology all the time | 14:20 |
| Macer | java too :-) | 14:20 |
| Macer | exactly | 14:21 |
| Robot101 | switching from Gtk to Qt was the waste of time that killed MeeGo's chances inside Nokia | 14:21 |
| Macer | that is why governments should execute people that dont use asm | 14:21 |
| Robot101 | it cost literally 2 years of rewriting stuff on the N900 which basically almost worked | 14:21 |
| gry | DocScrutinizer: I rebooted, the system appears to be ok. Thank you for your advice. | 14:21 |
| Macer | Robot101: you really think that is what killed meego? :-) | 14:22 |
| Robot101 | um... yes | 14:22 |
| Macer | if you say so | 14:22 |
| Macer | i think the inability to make nokia money killed meego | 14:23 |
| Robot101 | yes, due to inability to release a product | 14:23 |
| Macer | but i suppose we all have a different point of view on the matter | 14:23 |
| Robot101 | no, you're just supporting my theory | 14:23 |
| Robot101 | time wasted => no money in | 14:23 |
| Macer | they could have released a product had they put their full weight and resources behind it... maemo was a back alley nokia product while symbian had all the goods | 14:24 |
| Robot101 | change technology and rewrite loads of stuff with a team which is 10 times bigger than it needs to be, and get rid of the working code for *NO REAL REASON* => waste years and 10 times more money | 14:24 |
| Robot101 | Harmattan had a gigantic team compared to Fremantle - that was part of the problem | 14:24 |
| Macer | i am still with a demand issue | 14:25 |
| Macer | android and ios had 70% of the market and nobody wanted the other stuff | 14:25 |
| Robot101 | Nokia's supply chain inertia is large enough to create demand just by filling the market | 14:25 |
| Robot101 | provided the product is good enough | 14:25 |
| Robot101 | that's what Microsoft is betting on | 14:25 |
| Macer | webos.... rim..... symbian..... | 14:25 |
| Robot101 | webos and rim are just ants compared to the nokia juggernaut - they didn't ship in as many countries, or as many operators, or in as much volume as anything from N | 14:26 |
| Robot101 | anyway, lunch time | 14:26 |
| jonwil | I dont know that a webkit based EAL will work very well on the N900 | 14:26 |
| Macer | sounds like maemo | 14:26 |
| Macer | lol | 14:26 |
| Macer | which shipped in many countries and was still an ant | 14:27 |
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| ShadowJK | webit microb didn't work that well in diablo I think | 14:31 |
| jonwil | Looking at that EAL code it should be fairly simple to port to Fremantle if you wanted to | 14:31 |
| jonwil | although as was said, its probably not worth doing | 14:31 |
| jonwil | me, I intend to clone tablet-browser-view-test now :) | 14:33 |
| jonwil | shouldn't be hard from the look of it | 14:33 |
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| jonwil | lately I have been on a real "lets reverse engineer stuff | 14:37 |
| jonwil | " mood | 14:37 |
| jonwil | which is a good thing | 14:37 |
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| jonwil | I have a habit of comming into communities and really contributing to those communities with good things | 14:44 |
| Macer | i just took the most awesome shower ever | 14:44 |
| Macer | jonwil: thats awesome. no matter how much contempt we may all have for nokia.... maemo is still great | 14:45 |
| Macer | there is nothing like it | 14:45 |
| jonwil | yep | 14:45 |
| luke-jr | nonsense | 14:45 |
| luke-jr | Maemo *could have been great* if anything worked right, maybe. | 14:46 |
| jonwil | I love Maemo | 14:47 |
| jonwil | and I think the N900 is the best cellphone ever made :) | 14:47 |
| Macer | luke-jr: i think it is the best mobile full linux distro made thus far | 14:47 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: N900 wasn't supposed to be a cellphone | 14:47 |
| luke-jr | Macer: Maemo isn't Linux | 14:47 |
| luke-jr | Macer: MeeGo, maybe | 14:47 |
| luke-jr | but not Maemo for sure | 14:47 |
| jonwil | Maemo IS linux | 14:48 |
| Macer | uhm | 14:48 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: nope | 14:48 |
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| Macer | maemo uses a linux kernel and it also has a gnu user env | 14:48 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: it doesn't ship with Linux, and you can't even use it with Linux | 14:48 |
| Macer | what more do you need to fit the definition of "Linux" | 14:48 |
| petteri | we all love maemo, luke-jr is just trolling | 14:48 |
| luke-jr | Macer: no, it doesn't have a GNU env | 14:48 |
| Macer | er | 14:48 |
| luke-jr | Macer: it has BusyBox | 14:48 |
| luke-jr | Macer: Linux comes from kernel.org | 14:49 |
| Macer | a lot of arm based distros have busybox | 14:49 |
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| luke-jr | Macer: sure, but that doesn't make it GNU | 14:49 |
| luke-jr | BusyBox != GNU | 14:49 |
| Macer | seriously? :) | 14:49 |
| luke-jr | … | 14:49 |
| Macer | so you're saying the kernel used on a n900 is not a linux kernel? | 14:49 |
| luke-jr | correct. | 14:49 |
| Macer | lmao | 14:49 |
| LaoLang_cool | which file browser is recommended? | 14:49 |
| Macer | ok.. how about "linux based" | 14:49 |
| Macer | better? | 14:49 |
| jonwil | The N900 is most definatly "Linux" | 14:49 |
| luke-jr | download *any* Linux kernel (remember, they're on kernel.org) and get Maemo to boot with it | 14:49 |
| jonwil | Its got a linux kernel on it | 14:49 |
| luke-jr | Macer: sure | 14:50 |
| luke-jr | Macer: Android is also Linux-based, though | 14:50 |
| Macer | Linux-Like heh | 14:50 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: no more than Android does | 14:50 |
| jonwil | Its linux in that it can run linux apps | 14:50 |
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| luke-jr | jonwil: BSD can also run Linux apps | 14:50 |
| Macer | luke-jr: i assumed n900 used a basic omap kernel with hardware blobs | 14:50 |
| luke-jr | Macer: nope | 14:50 |
| Macer | heh | 14:50 |
| luke-jr | Macer: it has a bunch of userspace API hacks required | 14:50 |
| Macer | i think you're being way too technical on what should be considered "linux" | 14:51 |
| * merlin1991 can't find the icon for terminal app packages on the wiki | 14:51 | |
| luke-jr | Macer: for good reason | 14:51 |
| merlin1991 | I remember that if the package contains a terminal app it shoud have that icon | 14:51 |
| Macer | luke-jr: that sounds like anal debian dev talk there | 14:51 |
| Macer | :) | 14:51 |
| luke-jr | Macer: the fact that Maemo doesn't use Linux is the reason why you can never get Linux 3.1 working with it | 14:51 |
| luke-jr | even with the drivers ported | 14:51 |
| Macer | stskeeps was workign on adding all the open stuff to the linux arm branch.. but well.. we all know how that went | 14:51 |
| luke-jr | Linux won't accept Maemo's API hacks | 14:52 |
| jonwil | I see nothing in the N900 system that would be in any way tied to specific kernel vresions | 14:52 |
| jonwil | versions | 14:52 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: you didn't look very hard. | 14:52 |
| jonwil | Give me an example then | 14:52 |
| jonwil | You could easily port whatever maemo patches are in the maemo kernel to whatever other kernel source tree you had | 14:52 |
| jonwil | if you wanted to | 14:52 |
| luke-jr | /proc/bootreason | 14:53 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: perhaps, but then you're back to Linux-based since Linux proper will never accept these patches | 14:53 |
| flux | if the companies would need to get everything the need to get the project going upstreamed before they use it, they would miss deadlines even better | 14:54 |
| luke-jr | /proc/bootreason is not a Linux API, yet Maemo requires the kernel to provide it | 14:54 |
| Macer | wouldn't that mean that ubuntu is also not linux? | 14:54 |
| luke-jr | Macer: Ubuntu will boot if you install a Linux kernel | 14:54 |
| flux | and after it's been released, nobody cares about working with the upstream | 14:54 |
| Macer | on an n900? | 14:54 |
| Macer | :) | 14:54 |
| flux | it's not like you can just ship a patch and it gets integrated | 14:54 |
| luke-jr | Macer: yes, if the drivers are patched in (drivers *can* be accepted upstream) | 14:54 |
| luke-jr | flux: it's easier than supporting the device after releasing it | 14:55 |
| flux | probably bootreason could've just been an additional driver (maybe it is now already, I don't know) | 14:55 |
| luke-jr | flux: the problem is Nokia doesn't care to do either | 14:55 |
| flux | luke-jr, but if you don't get everything in, it's not very useful | 14:55 |
| flux | because you still need to provide support | 14:55 |
| luke-jr | flux: if you get everything in, the Linux kernel maintainers keep it up to date for you | 14:55 |
| luke-jr | more or less | 14:55 |
| * luke-jr thinks Linus should be more assertive about enforcing the trademark | 14:56 | |
| jonwil | I suspect Linus would consider that a N900 is "running Linux" | 14:56 |
| jonwil | RMS would probably say "its Linux but not gnu/linux" | 14:57 |
| flux | so does a linux fork become not-linux the moment you have an application that depends on a modification you've made? | 14:57 |
| jonwil | btw, what part of the system relies on bootreason anyway? | 14:57 |
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| jonwil | oh ok, getbootstate needs it | 14:59 |
| luke-jr | flux: the Linux fork becomes not-Linux the moment it behaves differently from Linux | 14:59 |
| Macer | :) luke-jr maemo is still the best "linux-based" mobile distro | 14:59 |
| Macer | heh | 14:59 |
| jonwil | someone created an open clone of getbootstate IIRC | 14:59 |
| luke-jr | flux: the *userland/aggregation* becomes "not Linux" the moment it won't boot with a standard Linux kernel | 14:59 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: That would mean linuses fork is not linux. | 14:59 |
| flux | luke-jr, so it's all black and white? you add a usleep(1) to boot and then it behaves differently from The True Linux? | 14:59 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: Linus defines Linux | 14:59 |
| luke-jr | flux: that's not different behaviour :pp | 14:59 |
| Macer | hahahaha | 15:00 |
| flux | I would say adding custom system calls crosses the line, for example | 15:00 |
| jonwil | I like the N900 because its the most open 3G handset available | 15:00 |
| flux | not adding new drivers or entries in /proc | 15:00 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Then that would mean the mainline kernel is not linux. | 15:00 |
| Macer | luke-jr: omg that should go on the quote bot | 15:00 |
| Macer | :) | 15:00 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: fail | 15:00 |
| Macer | Linux defines Linux | 15:00 |
| Macer | that was epic | 15:00 |
| flux | dyslexics of the world, untie ;) | 15:00 |
| Macer | and after that he walks on water and rises from the dead :) | 15:00 |
| luke-jr | flux: /proc entries are basically system calls without using up syscall numbers | 15:00 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Linus maintains a repository that is not in the mainstream kernel yet. | 15:00 |
| Macer | what does linux do for money? | 15:01 |
| jonwil | can we stop arguing about whether the N900 is running Linux or not and get back to taking about which closed-source bits of the N900 software I will reverse engineer next? :) | 15:01 |
| luke-jr | he's paid to hack Linux | 15:01 |
| Macer | i mean. he writes open source kernels.. does he have a side job? :) | 15:01 |
| Macer | heh | 15:01 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: AGPS? | 15:01 |
| luke-jr | wait, that's N8x0 | 15:01 |
| jonwil | N900 has AGPS | 15:01 |
| jonwil | but GPS is too complicated | 15:01 |
| luke-jr | Macer: open source != not paid | 15:01 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: pfft | 15:01 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: hack NOLO? | 15:01 |
| flux | luke-jr, except drivers can easily add new entries to /proc | 15:02 |
| luke-jr | replace it with something open | 15:02 |
| jonwil | I already investigated location-daemon, location-proxy etc | 15:02 |
| luke-jr | flux: not really, no. they change /sys | 15:02 |
| jonwil | As for NOLO, I dont want to touch stuff that low-level | 15:02 |
| jacekowski | luke-jr: that's not a problem | 15:02 |
| jonwil | so not NOLO or kernel or cellmodem | 15:02 |
| flux | luke-jr, well, things are just moving to /sys or have moved there lately | 15:02 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: you know I reverse engineered location-* years ago? | 15:02 |
| jacekowski | luke-jr: but u-boot is huge compared to nolo | 15:02 |
| jacekowski | luke-jr: and rewriting bootloader takes time | 15:02 |
| jacekowski | luke-jr: and nolo does the job | 15:03 |
| jonwil | got a link to that location-* work? | 15:03 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: PowerVRT | 15:03 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: PowerVR | 15:03 |
| Macer | jonwil: is there a list of closed things on a n900? | 15:03 |
| Macer | yeah... open up the powervr | 15:03 |
| Macer | heh | 15:03 |
| NIN101 | http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages | 15:03 |
| jonwil | PowerVR is also too complex, already looked at it before | 15:03 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_GPS_Reverse_Engineering | 15:04 |
| jonwil | oh that page | 15:04 |
| flux | luke-jr, create_proc_read_entry still exists and is used by modules | 15:04 |
| luke-jr | flux: modules != drivers | 15:04 |
| luke-jr | flux: modules are just binary patches | 15:04 |
| Macer | clockd? | 15:05 |
| * DocScrutinizer smells Friday | 15:05 | |
| Macer | wtf? | 15:05 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer: i'm already off work. i smell weekend :) | 15:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | Macer: I notice that, yeah | 15:05 |
| jonwil | clockd is closed source I suspect because it talks to cell network to get cell network time or related settings | 15:05 |
| Macer | and i made a big plan to veg out the entire week | 15:05 |
| Macer | yeah well... get rid of that haha... make it use ntpd or something :) | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | jonwil: a good candidate fro RE | 15:06 |
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| Macer | wow... that much of hildon is closed? | 15:07 |
| Macer | why would nokia even bother keeping hildon on lockdown like that? | 15:07 |
| luke-jr | [09:05:58] <jonwil> clockd is closed source I suspect because it talks to cell network to get cell network time or related settings | 15:08 |
| luke-jr | ^ retarded | 15:08 |
| luke-jr | cell network takes too long to get time | 15:08 |
| luke-jr | I wish NITs just used the stupid GPS for time | 15:09 |
| luke-jr | it doesn't even really need a fix | 15:09 |
| luke-jr | just a single GPS packet | 15:09 |
| Macer | until you're not los for a long time | 15:09 |
| SpeedEvil | 6s | 15:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Is a GPS packet - enough for time anyway | 15:09 |
| luke-jr | the only time GPS fails for me is when cell service fails | 15:09 |
| jonwil | Btw that GPS reverse engineering is only a tiny part of the functionality for GPS, its only one of many different packets that are sent to and from the cell modem for GPS | 15:10 |
| luke-jr | and once you get a single GPS packet, you can use the system clock | 15:10 |
| jonwil | and that packet isn't even totally reverse enginereed | 15:10 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: it was enough to get the GPS fully functional… | 15:10 |
| luke-jr | except maybe AGPS | 15:10 |
| jonwil | "functional" and "works as good as stock" are 2 different things :) | 15:10 |
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| jonwil | as for hildon, I bet a lot of the closed bits are closed for other reasons. For example hildon-theme-* are closed because they are "branding" | 15:11 |
| Macer | jonwil: just don't listen to him.. open clockd | 15:12 |
| Macer | lol | 15:12 |
| Macer | do it your own way :) | 15:12 |
| jonwil | also remember Nokia has a "UX == differentiation" rule | 15:12 |
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| Macer | well... hildon is very wel closed | 15:12 |
| Macer | the applets are shocking | 15:12 |
| Macer | all the applets are closed? :) | 15:13 |
| jonwil | yeah the control panel applets are closed | 15:13 |
| jonwil | but that doesnt mean hildon iself is closed | 15:13 |
| Macer | you would think someone would have made new applets | 15:13 |
| Macer | heh | 15:13 |
| Macer | open ones | 15:13 |
| jonwil | although a number of the applets have been cloned for the CSSU | 15:13 |
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| jonwil | like the notification light applet | 15:13 |
| Macer | ah i see | 15:13 |
| jonwil | or the tv-out applet | 15:13 |
| jonwil | someone cloned the battery charge status widget | 15:13 |
| Macer | i find it odd nokia would keep that closed as well | 15:14 |
| Macer | i wonder what goes through their minds when they make these decisions | 15:14 |
| jaska | probably nothing | 15:14 |
| jonwil | as for clock, I am looking up right now all the different packages involved to figure out which ones should go on my todo | 15:15 |
| jonwil | I plan to finish cloning tablet-browser-view-test first I think | 15:16 |
| jonwil | but yeah clockd seems like a good idea | 15:16 |
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| jonwil | hmmm there is clockd and also Libclockcore0-0 | 15:17 |
| jonwil | although it looks like Libclockcore0-0 is just for the clock applet | 15:17 |
| jonwil | i.e. its not low-level like clockd | 15:18 |
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| jonwil | clockd requires libcityinfo0, whatever that is | 15:18 |
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| Macer | heh | 15:19 |
| Macer | probably the database that some atlas company sued over | 15:19 |
| Macer | that was comical | 15:19 |
| Macer | no more timezones for linux! | 15:20 |
| ShadowJK | that's tzdata | 15:23 |
| ShadowJK | libcityinfo is probably that world map | 15:23 |
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| Macer | well... my n900 is in chicago.... i hope it gets here soon | 15:23 |
| Macer | probably tomorrow... i hope... i need an n900 before i just die | 15:23 |
| Macer | this G2 is so absolutely horrible | 15:23 |
| jonwil | no, world map is libhildon-time-zone-chooser0-0 | 15:23 |
| jonwil | someone produced a set of header files for libhildon-time-zone-chooser0-0 | 15:24 |
| jonwil | libcityinfo looks worth cloning maybe | 15:24 |
| jonwil | if I am doing clockd, libcityinfo seems worth checking out too | 15:24 |
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| jonwil | it has a -dev and a -doc package too | 15:25 |
| jonwil | which makes life easier | 15:25 |
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| Macer | i wonder why a blue nokia e7 is so much more than a silver one | 15:25 |
| Macer | do they use porshe quality paint? | 15:26 |
| jonwil | eeew, german cars :P | 15:26 |
| Macer | do the fins make cars? :) | 15:27 |
| jacekowski | Macer: they use porsche quality paint on silver oone | 15:27 |
| jacekowski | Macer: that's why it's so cheap | 15:27 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 15:27 |
| Macer | hahaha | 15:27 |
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| Macer | geez i was just curious :) i mean the shade of blue just doesn't seem very high demand | 15:28 |
| jonwil | I dont know if they make cars in finland but they do over the boarder in Sweeden | 15:28 |
| jonwil | some mighty fine cars at that | 15:28 |
| jacekowski | jonwil: saab went bust last month | 15:28 |
| jonwil | nope, they havent gone bust yet | 15:28 |
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| jonwil | they are in financial trouble | 15:28 |
| jonwil | but there are all sorts of people who want to invest money in SAAB | 15:29 |
| jacekowski | On September 7th 2011, Saab Automobile filed for bankruptcy protection | 15:29 |
| jacekowski | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Automobile#2nd_bankruptcy_protection | 15:29 |
| jaska | arent they getting sold to chinese? | 15:29 |
| jacekowski | they are bust | 15:29 |
| jacekowski | volvo is all right | 15:29 |
| jonwil | volvo ftw :) | 15:29 |
| jaska | and volvo got sold to the chinese already :) | 15:29 |
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| jacekowski | ahm | 15:30 |
| Macer | maybe i will buy an allvelo | 15:30 |
| jacekowski | but saab made much better cars | 15:30 |
| Macer | saab made ugly cars | 15:30 |
| Macer | they turned into just a name | 15:30 |
| Macer | like apple :) | 15:30 |
| jonwil | The local transport authority around here is buying a whole bunch of Volvo buses | 15:30 |
| jacekowski | but you could do million miles and it would still work | 15:30 |
| jonwil | and they are good buses at that | 15:30 |
| jaska | not quite like apple, i wouldnt take an iphone for free. | 15:30 |
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| Macer | jacekowski: but if for some reason it doesn't last a million miles then it costs a million to repair | 15:31 |
| jonwil | I would actually say the Volvo buses are better than the german and french product (Mercedes Benz and Renault) that makes up the rest of the bus fleet | 15:32 |
| jacekowski | Macer: still cheaper than fixing german crap | 15:33 |
| jacekowski | i've seen 2008 BMW on fire 3 weeks ago | 15:33 |
| jacekowski | on M25 | 15:33 |
| jonwil | heh, just saw a TV ad for the N9 | 15:33 |
| jacekowski | jonwil: i don't have a tv | 15:34 |
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| Macer | are they still only selling N9s to fins only? | 15:35 |
| Macer | how racist :) | 15:36 |
| jonwil | The N9 is definatly for sale in Australia | 15:36 |
| jaska | friend bought n9 and a bt kbd, told him not to | 15:36 |
| jonwil | from at least one carrier | 15:36 |
| jaska | now hes moaning about the kbd not working :) | 15:36 |
| Macer | haha | 15:36 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer was talking about that | 15:36 |
| Macer | that the bt keyboard doesn't work :) | 15:37 |
| Macer | i wonder if my su8w will work with the e7 | 15:37 |
| jonwil | ok, so for the clock stuff, if I decide to clone anything, I will clone clockd, libcityinfo0-0 and libtime0 | 15:37 |
| Macer | i bet it does | 15:37 |
| jaska | i should lure him to sell me his n900 | 15:37 |
| jaska | for spares | 15:37 |
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| Macer | heh | 15:37 |
| Macer | hurry up before he realizes the n9 sucks | 15:37 |
| jonwil | clockd at the very least doesn't seem that hard to clone | 15:38 |
| jonwil | libtime seems harder | 15:38 |
| Macer | maybe someone will port meego for the e7 | 15:38 |
| jonwil | ok, back to reverse engineering tablet-browser-view-test :) | 15:38 |
| Macer | damn... my n900 is already at my post office at 6am.. it might get here today! | 15:39 |
| Macer | that would be great | 15:39 |
| Macer | it is amazing how quickly this thing is getting here | 15:39 |
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| jonwil | oh and btw luke-jr, I have a pn_location_isi.h header file containing all the packets sent too and from the cellmodem for GPS | 15:40 |
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| Macer | jonwil: don't listen to luke-jr .. he is bitter | 15:43 |
| luke-jr | no u | 15:43 |
| luke-jr | jonwil: could be legally grey to use that :p | 15:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | jonwil: pn_location_isi.h WOW! | 15:48 |
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| jonwil | is that WOW as in, cool, didnt know that was out there or wow as in "big deal"? | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | #1 | 15:49 |
| jonwil | ok | 15:49 |
| jonwil | tablet-browser-view-test seems nice and simple :P | 15:50 |
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| jonwil | tonight though I will not make the mistake I made last night of pulling an all-nighter and ending up in bed at 5am just as the sun was starting to come up | 15:52 |
| jonwil | ok, good, tablet-browser-view-test has an i386 build | 15:53 |
| jonwil | Perfect. | 15:53 |
| jonwil | (i386 packages are easier to reverse engineer than armel) | 15:54 |
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| jonwil | too tired to do much more work tonight | 15:55 |
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| jonwil | should probably stop doing all this N900 work and clean up my pigsty of an apartment ready for a rent-inspection in just under 2 weeks :) | 15:56 |
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| mece | Thinking about cloning keycard to phone... | 15:59 |
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| merlin1991 | FSCKD AUTOBUILDER | 15:59 |
| psychologe | N900 | 15:59 |
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| Macer | damn | 16:01 |
| Macer | my artigo took a crap on me | 16:01 |
| Macer | i was in the middle of watching something and it just shut off by itself and now it won't boot | 16:01 |
| Macer | i get the bios and it just sits there and doesn't count the memory. i hope the memory just died | 16:01 |
| Macer | i used the damn thing to watch tv shows in my room | 16:01 |
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| merlin1991 | okay got my package to build now, but is there any convenient way to build packages beforehand like on the autobuilder? | 16:08 |
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| LaoLang_cool | How do you sync time on n900? | 16:30 |
| LaoLang_cool | ntp? | 16:30 |
| Ikarus | LaoLang_cool: GSM | 16:32 |
| Ikarus | does require the network to have active time broadcasts | 16:32 |
| LaoLang_cool | Ikarus: my GSM has no this service here... | 16:33 |
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| Ikarus | LaoLang_cool: then you could use NTP or GPS | 16:33 |
| LaoLang_cool | I think npt is the best way for my condition | 16:33 |
| LaoLang_cool | oh, mensioned GPS, here when I open map, it always says: looking for GPS... | 16:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | LaoLang_cool: with time incorrect AGPS will fail | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | we had that topic like 18h ago | 16:46 |
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| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer: oh! it's the time incorrect issue | 16:47 |
| LaoLang_cool | I will try to install a ntpupdate to sync my clock | 16:47 |
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| LaoLang_cool | I've installed openntpd | 16:51 |
| color`coded | was reading installation of queen beecon/sense ui widget ... reading through that seems installing nitdroid is simpler hehe | 16:52 |
| LaoLang_cool | but how to use it... | 16:53 |
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| LaoLang_cool | no ntpdate for n900 :( | 17:01 |
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| SpeedEvil | openntpd | 17:03 |
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| LaoLang_cool | SpeedEvil: I've installed it, but don't know how to use it... | 17:04 |
| LaoLang_cool | just a nptd command | 17:05 |
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| NIN101 | ntpd -p ntp.ubuntu.com | 17:05 |
| SpeedEvil | it should sync after a few mins, if you have network | 17:05 |
| NIN101 | (at least the busybox version of ntpd) | 17:05 |
| LaoLang_cool | NIN101: Invalid option -- p | 17:06 |
| LaoLang_cool | ntpd [-dSs] [-f file] | 17:06 |
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| LaoLang_cool | SpeedEvil: Is the openntpd installed by apt-get busybox version? | 17:08 |
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| SpeedEvil | It's not the full version | 17:10 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm unsure where it comes from | 17:10 |
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| SpeedEvil | ntpd -d seems to update | 17:12 |
| LaoLang_cool | How to know if the time is correct? | 17:12 |
| LaoLang_cool | SpeedEvil: cool, -d works | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | probably it's most reasonable to add ntpd -q(?) && hwclock --systohc to ifup | 17:13 |
| LaoLang_cool | DocScrutinizer51: no -q option too... | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ntpd in daemon mode doesn't play nice on random connectivity | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | yeah, in former times there's been ntptime | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | it's obsolete though ntpd doesn't completely replace it | 17:15 |
| LaoLang_cool | Still always looking for GPS... | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | anyway messybox $random_cmd usually doesn't work as expeted, so better get the genuine package | 17:16 |
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| Corsac | mpf, no openssl | 17:17 |
| LaoLang_cool | Corsac: do you talk to me? | 17:17 |
| Corsac | not at all | 17:18 |
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| LaoLang_cool | Corsac: oh | 17:20 |
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| * Sicelo has ntpdate :) | 17:53 | |
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| rev | Hi guys. Can anyone tell me why certain packages listed here: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/dists/fremantle/free/binary-armel/Packages won't show up in my applications list on the n900? I'm specifically trying to get iptables | 18:01 |
| rev | I see lots of other packages, just not iptables | 18:02 |
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| jacekowski | because it's not gui application | 18:03 |
| jacekowski | stuff that's not gui has to be installed from console | 18:03 |
| jacekowski | apt-get | 18:03 |
| rev | gotcha. thanks | 18:03 |
| rev | awesome. Got it. :( | 18:04 |
| rev | er :) | 18:04 |
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| neal | I'm looking for people to vote on woodchuck related packages so they can enter extras | 18:54 |
| neal | http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/murmeltier/0.4~20111102-7/ | 18:54 |
| neal | http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/pywoodchuck/0.4~20111102-7/ | 18:55 |
| neal | those are the two most important, but there are 7 packages in total :/ | 18:55 |
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| psycho_oreos | hmm any reasons as to why Fn + Sym does not bring up the vkb with extra symbols? If I double tap Fn I will get a banner that says Fn is locked, obviously pressing it once again gets out of Fn locking. If I press and hold Fn key whilst hitting another key that has Fn functionality I get the symbols. The Sym|Ctrl appears to work as well in terminal when I press and hold Sym|Ctrl and hit D (for logging out). | 20:52 |
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| psycho_oreos | Also when the keyboard is not slid out on N900, I could get the virtual keyboard, but not the extra symbols keyboard | 20:53 |
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| * psycho_oreos is starting to think this third N900 is a real lemon, too many issues here and there | 20:54 | |
| Shapeshifter | Hey, does someone know if it's possible to turn of Javascript in opera? | 20:54 |
| Shapeshifter | I can't find the setting and nothing on the web. | 20:55 |
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| x29a | Shapeshifter: http://mistered.us/tips/javascript/opera.shtml | 20:56 |
| Shapeshifter | x29a: I'm talking about opera for the N900, naturally. | 20:56 |
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| x29a | id figure its not that much different | 20:58 |
| x29a | Shapeshifter: did you go through the settings already? | 20:58 |
| Shapeshifter | x29a: yes | 20:58 |
| x29a | opera:config as well? | 20:58 |
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| x29a | the option of question would be: Scripting Enable JavaScript/ECMAScript 1 | 20:59 |
| Shapeshifter | x29a: mhh, there's only one option matching ecma, "EcmaScriptJIT". searching for javascript shows a bunch of unrelated settings | 21:00 |
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| x29a | no value for scripting? | 21:01 |
| x29a | then id say, its not possible | 21:01 |
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| Shapeshifter | no. yeah it's odd | 21:02 |
| Starwiz | When flashing my N900, what firmware should I use for canada? | 21:02 |
| Starwiz | The USA or global one? | 21:02 |
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| Starwiz | Well.. my Nokia N900 isn't detecting my SIM card. | 21:03 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, probably global one imo | 21:05 |
| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: That was my quess.. But neither are detecting my SIM card. =\ | 21:05 |
| nox- | do i see that right the pr1.3.1 update the autoupdating offers doesnt touch the kernel? | 21:05 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, did the device use to work with the exact same SIM card? | 21:05 |
| psycho_oreos | nox-, I'm assuming it shouldn't | 21:06 |
| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: I just bought it. | 21:06 |
| psycho_oreos | nox-, but as always, backup is really handy | 21:06 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, which? the device or the SIM card? | 21:07 |
| nox- | psycho_oreos, whats the preferred backup method these days? :) | 21:07 |
| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: The device. | 21:07 |
| psycho_oreos | nox-, backupmenu, too bad backupmenu couldn't backup the kernel but at least it'll save you heck alot of work though | 21:08 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, brand new or second hand? | 21:08 |
| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: Brand new | 21:08 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, it could be that the provider is not using a frequency that the device could handle (e.g. 850MHz band) | 21:09 |
| nox- | psycho_oreos, ok. its mostly just bc i use kernel power and was wondering if i should uninstall it before upgrading... | 21:09 |
| psycho_oreos | s/device could/device couldn't/ | 21:09 |
| infobot | psycho_oreos meant: Starwiz, it could be that the provider is not using a frequency that the device couldn't handle (e.g. 850MHz band) | 21:09 |
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| psycho_oreos | nox-, to be frank I wouldn't have a clue. nokia said it was only a security fix which is a simple/trivial matter of updating the certificates but who knows what else has been changed in PR1.3.1. I myself use CSSU which already has the diginotar's fix ages ago | 21:10 |
| nox- | yeah i see they're aiming for a stable cssu, i might use that too once its released... | 21:11 |
| nox- | maybe ill just wait :) | 21:11 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, I'd try another SIM card that works with your previous device/phone and that doesn't use 850MHz band. If you still get no SIM card, your device could be faulty. Thinking about it again, its somewhat unlikely that inserting a SIM card with a provider that works with 850MHz band will give you a no SIM card error. If anything, it would not be able to subscribe to the network instead of showing no SIM card inserted icon | 21:12 |
| psycho_oreos | CSSU currently is somewhat stable from my point of view, at least it provides plenty of cool features that nokia couldn't be assed revealing | 21:13 |
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| Starwiz | Psycho_oreos: I redid the flash, and now I'm not getting the no-sim error thang.. But I don't have a service bar or anything =\ | 21:18 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, you still have yet to find out if the provider works on 850MHz band or not | 21:19 |
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| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: After a google search, wikipedia came up saying that the GSM-850 and GSM-1900 are used in Brazil, Canada, etcetc | 21:22 |
| * psycho_oreos facepalms | 21:22 | |
| Starwiz | UMTS/HSPA 850MHz and/or 1900MHz | 21:23 |
| psycho_oreos | Indeed, there are a few countries that uses 850MHz band but that's not my question. My question is if your SIM provider works with 850MHz band | 21:23 |
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| Starwiz | UMTS/HSPA 850MHz and/or 1900MHz = Telus | 21:23 |
| Macer | ok | 21:23 |
| Starwiz | So I'm going to say yes. =P | 21:23 |
| Macer | i will be damned | 21:24 |
| Macer | it really is a brand new nokia n900 lol | 21:24 |
| psycho_oreos | So go with another provider that doesn't use 850MHz band because afaik N900 doesn't support 850MHz band? | 21:24 |
| Macer | it doesnt seem to be a hk knockoff | 21:24 |
| Macer | awesome | 21:24 |
| Macer | $255 for a brand new n900 wasnt bad | 21:25 |
| psycho_oreos | from where? | 21:25 |
| Macer | hk | 21:26 |
| Macer | ebay | 21:26 |
| Macer | i am using it now waiting for it to do something asian :) | 21:26 |
| Macer | but so far it seems to be working like a champ | 21:27 |
| Macer | omg i missed the n900 qwerty. pne of the better ones i have ever used | 21:27 |
| psycho_oreos | it won't do anything asian if you flashed it properly and fully. I've bought my 2nd N900 when I visited HK. Needless to say I was a little pissed off it isn't quite brand new as someone has played around with it and screwed up the vkb. Plus I'm missing a proper USB -> microUSB cable and headphone | 21:29 |
| Macer | yeah.. mine was too lol | 21:29 |
| Macer | fake chinese headphones | 21:30 |
| Macer | at least the battery is nokia | 21:30 |
| Macer | i can deal with that as long as the phone is good | 21:30 |
| Macer | $255 is cheap even for a used n900 | 21:30 |
| psycho_oreos | mine was a genuine nokia headphones but they don't work with N900. It has extra buttons to control music player (needless to say which doesn't work). | 21:30 |
| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: Is it possible for me to use this phone without the 3G network? Because the 2G is 850/1900 compatible. So shouldn't it work for just calls and whatnot? | 21:30 |
| Starwiz | Or am I just crazy. | 21:31 |
| Macer | i have my original headphones from my broken one | 21:31 |
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| Macer | fk.. i just realized my xp box died this morning | 21:31 |
| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, You can, the problem isn't that. The problem is that if your provider currently is only using 850MHz band, if they are you're pretty much screwed | 21:32 |
| Macer | i need to flash cssu | 21:32 |
| Macer | meh. i will do that later | 21:32 |
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| Starwiz | Psycho_Oreos: Oh I see. | 21:32 |
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| psycho_oreos | Starwiz, and the alternative is to get another SIM card with a provider that does not use 850MHz band or you'll need to buy another phone that is capable of using Telus | 21:33 |
| Macer | crap i forgot how long it takes to install something on the n900 | 21:34 |
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| psycho_oreos | it actually doesn't take that long :P | 21:35 |
| psycho_oreos | aka FAM | 21:36 |
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| Sazpaimon | what is event_type_id 7 in the el-v1.db | 21:44 |
| Sazpaimon | i thought its sms, in my db those are 11 | 21:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Macer: yeah, wait for either T17 CSSU, or the all exciting new Stable version to come soon | 21:53 |
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| Macer | DocScrutinizer: really? | 22:22 |
| Macer | so no point in flashing now? | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | really what? | 22:22 |
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| Macer | you said to wait for a stable release | 22:25 |
| Macer | i am guessing i am going to have to flash cssu on my hk n900 | 22:25 |
| Macer | i cant believe this thing works lol | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | we just finished a meeting where we sorted last questions about who and how is going to build CSSU-testiing-17.0 (16.8 being recent), and merlin1991 is about to branch a stable version based on 16.8 and cleaned up a bit - it will probably see merges to level T17 prior to first release | 22:25 |
| Macer | nice... when that is all said and done i will flash this thing | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, T17 got "announced" by MohammadAG for this weekend | 22:26 |
| Macer | i sure wish the n900 had a charging pad sleeve for any charging pad | 22:27 |
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| Macer | duracell mygrid clip wou.d go right across the cam :( | 22:27 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer: i look forward to it | 22:29 |
| Macer | i think i wi.. try arm meego out as well | 22:29 |
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| whatever4ever | where is the skype account password stored on the n900? | 23:14 |
| merlin1991 | skype on the n900 is a dark and battery draining thing, better not ask about it on foss channels ;) | 23:16 |
| Macer | heh | 23:17 |
| Macer | in conversations acct settings | 23:17 |
| Macer | merlin1991: is right tho. it is a battery draining whore | 23:17 |
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| whatever4ever | merlin1991: how else would you communicate with skype contacts? Pidgin? | 23:19 |
| merlin1991 | from my pc ;) | 23:19 |
| whatever4ever | BTW, I hope someone builds the newest pidgin for the n900 soon, as well as the OTR pluggin | 23:19 |
| whatever4ever | The reason we buy an n900 is to do everything with it | 23:20 |
| whatever4ever | Including turning off TVs in bars | 23:20 |
| whatever4ever | to impress women | 23:20 |
| whatever4ever | Macer: you can see the pass in cleartext? | 23:20 |
| Macer | i never got the ir to work :-) | 23:21 |
| Macer | i would love to use it as a remote | 23:21 |
| Macer | i dont know? doubt it | 23:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | IR is incredibly weak | 23:21 |
| Macer | like 2ft weak? | 23:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah | 23:22 |
| Macer | oh. not worth it then | 23:22 |
| Macer | nobody in meego-arm answered if n900 meego works :-) | 23:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | I get it to control my TV over a rnage of ~2m if I aim exactly | 23:23 |
| whatever4ever | why do they put these things in it if they suck? | 23:23 |
| Macer | whatever4ever: marketing? | 23:23 |
| whatever4ever | Seriously? | 23:23 |
| whatever4ever | God they suck at marketing | 23:23 |
| Macer | or they thought it would have a better usr later | 23:23 |
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| Macer | use | 23:23 |
| whatever4ever | Nokia is so damn bad at it. Probably good tech guys though | 23:23 |
| Macer | they have awesome engineers and their phones are incredibly well built | 23:24 |
| Macer | compared to htc | 23:24 |
| * DocScrutinizer pondered to pimp the IR LED several times | 23:24 | |
| Macer | i am so happy i dont need to use this g2 anymote | 23:24 |
| whatever4ever | If they made some elegant software for universal remove. Like send every off code when you push the off button (so you turn off any tv without configuring it) | 23:24 |
| Macer | there is an ir led? | 23:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | technically it could be 10 times as strong as it is | 23:24 |
| Macer | whatever4ever: people cant write that? | 23:25 |
| Macer | heh | 23:25 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer: is it a software limiter? | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever4ever: that's called tvbgone | 23:25 |
| whatever4ever | They can, but if you make the hardware then it should probably come with software that demonstrates teh HW functionality | 23:25 |
| Macer | like the fm trans | 23:25 |
| whatever4ever | tvbgone exists? | 23:25 |
| whatever4ever | I waaaaaaaaaaaant | 23:25 |
| whatever4ever | lol | 23:25 |
| Macer | the fm trans was set artificially low wasnt it? | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | Macer: nope, hw | 23:26 |
| whatever4ever | Seriously though, I'm really curious why some things succeed and some fail (and mostly the lessons learned from such events). So we know out of the smart phones the n900 had some of the least R&D funds spent | 23:26 |
| Macer | oh | 23:26 |
| Macer | whatever4ever: and amazing it is one of the most awesome phones made | 23:26 |
| Macer | lol | 23:27 |
| Macer | i wish someone would write a new ui for it | 23:27 |
| Macer | and ditch hildon | 23:27 |
| whatever4ever | DocScrutinizer: I was going to ask you... If you were making some new device... lets say, where you wanted the best coverage in the US, but didn't need much bandwidth or "data" - what would you choose? | 23:27 |
| Macer | DocScrutinizer: is that even possible? | 23:27 |
| whatever4ever | The pager protocol is an option, but the coverage isn't as good as I expected (for two way) | 23:27 |
| Macer | hf | 23:28 |
| Macer | lol | 23:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://maemo.org/packages/view/tvbgone/ | 23:28 |
| whatever4ever | Maybe I can get an n950 from my nokia friend | 23:28 |
| Macer | get a sat phone | 23:28 |
| Macer | that probably has the best coverage | 23:28 |
| whatever4ever | no, I'm talking about a service for a cheap device with an antenna that is low cost | 23:28 |
| whatever4ever | I was thinking 2g | 23:28 |
| whatever4ever | but the overhead is too high for my conceptual device | 23:29 |
| bindi | wlan and free hotspots | 23:29 |
| bindi | :-D | 23:29 |
| Macer | coverage for anything uhf will always depend on towers | 23:29 |
| Macer | except sat | 23:29 |
| Macer | omg i want my n900 to finish charging both batteries. it has been months since my other one broke. | 23:30 |
| whatever4ever | get an external charger | 23:30 |
| whatever4ever | I always carry 3 full bats | 23:30 |
| Macer | i am | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever4ever: (US device) NFC, seems US carrier world is a daunting and cruel one | 23:30 |
| Macer | honestly.... just so i dont have to touch the usb port | 23:31 |
| whatever4ever | For sure | 23:31 |
| whatever4ever | exactly, NFC | 23:31 |
| Macer | i need a n900 supported charging pad | 23:31 |
| whatever4ever | So with in mind that NFC is good enough, what would you pick? | 23:31 |
| whatever4ever | We're trying to get overhead as low as possible in this concept | 23:31 |
| whatever4ever | :) | 23:31 |
| Macer | hf | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | NFC != near filed comm, here | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-P | 23:31 |
| Macer | i thought it meant no fking clue | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 23:32 |
| whatever4ever | != near field? | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe you still need CDMA in USA to get good coverage. OR sth like N9 octoband modem | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | as a lot of mad carriers drop 2G to use the same bands for 3G now | 23:34 |
| whatever4ever | Are there any benefits to CDMA? Someone was arguing something, I don't remember... Less power? | 23:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | not really | 23:34 |
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| whatever4ever | Would you recommend a specific antenna to use that would allow for use on some long range low bandwidth freq & NFC? | 23:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sorry you lost me | 23:35 |
| SpeedEvil | NFC is a compleltey seperate radio. | 23:36 |
| SpeedEvil | It is not related to any radios in the n900 | 23:36 |
| whatever4ever | I'm talking about the hardware of a device | 23:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | and not suited for voice communication, nor for any mobile communication | 23:37 |
| whatever4ever | Sharing antenna and chips make it cheaper | 23:37 |
| whatever4ever | Stuff that works indoors/basements is bad ass | 23:37 |
| whatever4ever | That's why I was thinking about the pager protocols | 23:37 |
| whatever4ever | don't have to transfer much data here | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | whatever4ever: It doesn't work that way. | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Sharing antennas and chips does often not make it cheaper. | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Especially if the frequencies are seperated enough. | 23:38 |
| whatever4ever | why? | 23:38 |
| whatever4ever | (You can recommend a book if you want, that'd be helpful) | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | For a similar reason why your car does not have a power takeoff from the gearbox for the interior fans. | 23:39 |
| SpeedEvil | It just doesn't work. | 23:39 |
| SpeedEvil | ##electronics may be able to point you to a suitable book. | 23:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Or #hamradio | 23:40 |
| whatever4ever | Yeah, I don't know much EE | 23:40 |
| whatever4ever | K | 23:41 |
| whatever4ever | You got an n950? | 23:41 |
| whatever4ever | I might have to switch to android as my main device when n900 dies | 23:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Yes. | 23:42 |
| SpeedEvil | :/ | 23:42 |
| whatever4ever | Hoping some mini comp will come out | 23:42 |
| SpeedEvil | Hope so too. | 23:42 |
| whatever4ever | mininetbook | 23:42 |
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| jaska | ill prolly switch to a dumbphone :| | 23:42 |
| whatever4ever | flipphones back in! | 23:42 |
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| whatever4ever | *flips the screen of the mini netbook open with thumb* | 23:42 |
| SpeedEvil | I never really used the bits which integrate the phone with the n900 | 23:42 |
| whatever4ever | I can't do the N9 lack of keyboard | 23:42 |
| whatever4ever | The part that integrates it for me is the fact that it is in one physical object | 23:43 |
| SpeedEvil | A dumbphone, used with a mini-tablet thingy would work OK for me (modulo the whole two devices thing) | 23:43 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 23:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Doubling device count = fail. | 23:43 |
| whatever4ever | I wonder why they haven't come out with modular device | 23:44 |
| whatever4ever | s | 23:44 |
| whatever4ever | like legos | 23:44 |
| whatever4ever | "what an accelerometer?" | 23:44 |
| whatever4ever | That's the red add on right there! | 23:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | doesn't fly | 23:44 |
| whatever4ever | Why couldn't it? | 23:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | too much mech overhead# | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Modular has costs. | 23:45 |
| whatever4ever | I realize it is harder, but that is the direction PC hardware went 20 years ago | 23:45 |
| whatever4ever | We make each part really well and think about how they fit together | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Diddn't I write this down somewhere. | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Maybe not. | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Anyway. | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | As an example. | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | The costs of modular. | 23:45 |
| * DocScrutinizer fetches popcorn | 23:45 | |
| whatever4ever | Didn't modular decrease costs for x86? | 23:45 |
| whatever4ever | "PCs" | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | A 3G modem may have a 3*2cm area of PCB. | 23:45 |
| SpeedEvil | It's stuck on the 'motherboard' | 23:46 |
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| SpeedEvil | If you modularise the design, then you need to have a slot or hole in the case, where you can put this. It's got to have a wrap round the modem so it can be safely touched. | 23:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | needs heatsink | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | antenna plug | 23:47 |
| SpeedEvil | It's got to have antistatic protection on both sides of the connector - a few dozen components. And decoupling. | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | B2B-connectors | 23:47 |
| SpeedEvil | And then you runinto the issue that the antenna in the device won't work for the waveband you want. | 23:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | FAT B2B-connectors that can cope with several Ampere of surge current | 23:47 |
| whatever4ever | So it would have to be designed so that all antennae are on the main device with the PCB | 23:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Plus - if you leave 'slack' space in the modem bay, for expansion, you're wasting that space in the first product. | 23:48 |
| whatever4ever | what about IRs, accelerometers, compasses, etc? | 23:48 |
| SpeedEvil | An accel is a 3*3*0.8mm chip. | 23:48 |
| whatever4ever | I wish I had a book on this stuff entitled "what things are" | 23:48 |
| SpeedEvil | If it's soldered to the PCB, it takes up that area, and adds maybe $.10 + the accel cost to the design. | 23:48 |
| SpeedEvil | (so $1 total) | 23:49 |
| SpeedEvil | If it's modularised, that's got to be in a format the user can physically connect it to the phone, it's got to have two connectors, another half dozen components that aren't required, and it makes the mechanical design of the case lots harder. | 23:49 |
| SpeedEvil | Plus, you have the seperate retail costs of selling it to the user. | 23:50 |
| SpeedEvil | It's going to be really hard to keep the costs for that simple chip on a tiny board to below $10/device, and $.5/device for each phone it's not in. | 23:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | and mere BOM will be ~10$ istead 1$ | 23:50 |
| SpeedEvil | In broad outline. If you modularise the device, it's going to be half the reliability (optimistically), twice the price, twice the volume. | 23:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably the B2B connector is more expensive than the accel chip ;-P | 23:51 |
| SpeedEvil | and closing on twice the weight. | 23:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | so leave out the accel chip (3 * 3 * 0.8mm, 1$), add a B2B-connector instead ( 2 * 10 * 1.2mm, 2$) - profit :-D | 23:53 |
| whatever4ever | What about dongles? Also, how did you learn about this? | 23:53 |
| SpeedEvil | Dongles? | 23:54 |
| SpeedEvil | I learned about it by designing stuff at home, and reading lots about lectronics. | 23:54 |
| whatever4ever | But they don't even put a lot of chips in there for the masses because "who needs an FM transmitter, better to have a polished iphone with core func" | 23:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | learn? read magazines and books for 45 years | 23:54 |
| whatever4ever | dongles like external things that connect via bluetooth | 23:54 |
| whatever4ever | What did you make at home? | 23:55 |
| SpeedEvil | That is in some ways free - though it adds to battery use, but it means the device is a whole lot more clunky as you need to keep lots of boxes, and charge them all. | 23:55 |
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| SpeedEvil | Not ended up making much - designed various stuff from teeny cameras on. | 23:55 |
| whatever4ever | hmm, I wonder how many dongles could work via induction... they'd have to be too close | 23:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 23:56 |
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| whatever4ever | So how do we get them to put both 1) a lot of R&D and 2) lots of cool gadgets into a device for people like us? | 23:58 |
| whatever4ever | n900 has #2, iphone&android has #1 | 23:58 |
| whatever4ever | 1+2=3 omg | 23:58 |
| SpeedEvil | It's hard. | 23:58 |
| SpeedEvil | You need - to make a good stab at a smartphone - several million dollars. | 23:58 |
| whatever4ever | And I guess the software is another issue | 23:59 |
| SpeedEvil | Yes. | 23:59 |
| whatever4ever | Like on the n900 being able to run x86 apps via screen remotely | 23:59 |
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| SpeedEvil | In some ways, the hardware is the easy part. | 23:59 |
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