IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2011-09-27

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Psihow much power can the n900 port supply in host mode?00:52
jacekowski200mA it was00:52
jacekowskior 300mA00:52
jacekowskisomething like that00:52
jacekowskinot a lot00:52
Psiok, thanks00:52
Psiits a huge amount more than my neo197300:52
Psi0mA is pretty low00:53
jacekowskin8 can supply full 500mA00:53
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DocScrutinizer51Psi: 20001:30
DocScrutinizer51jacekowski: 500? duh!01:31
DocScrutinizer51as good as Freerunner01:31
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DocScrutinizer51haha my provider fails with DHCP/login on 2G01:36
* DocScrutinizer51 praises statusmenu 2G/3G/dual switcher01:37
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rmitagehey everyone01:44
DocScrutinizer51rmitage: hey01:46
rmitagelots of people here01:47
DocScrutinizer51a few still, yeah01:48
HyperSnyperhi DocScrutinizer01:48
DocScrutinizer51benn >600 at times01:48
HyperSnyperi'm still waiting on the n900 to arrive :D01:48
rmitageyou bought a new one HyperSnyper?01:49
HyperSnypernah refurb01:50
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rmitageIs it your first one?01:50
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HyperSnyperfirst "smartphone" aswell01:50
Sc0rpiusI'm not sure if congratulate you01:51
HyperSnyperstill going old school with an s4001:51
Sc0rpiusif I lose my N900 today I'd wait for an N901:51
rmitagewell the n900 is the smartest one out there :p01:51
HyperSnyperwell Sc0rpius i didn't pay alot for it01:51
DocScrutinizer51MEH N901:51
Sc0rpiusI still think the N8 should be hacked and some genius out there put some Meego in there01:51
HyperSnyperand nowhere near what id guess the N9 will be01:52
Sc0rpiusu mad DocScrutinizer01:52
Sc0rpiusit seems the days of physical keyboards are over :(01:52
rmitagehardware kb ftw01:52
Sc0rpiusnobody releases real kb in their phones anymore01:53
DocScrutinizer51I'd not need or worry a hw kbd on a szstem as BS as harmattan01:53
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Sc0rpiusyou think Maemo was/is better?01:53
Sc0rpiusas in Maemo501:53
rmitagealso, people seem to be having trouble with aegis01:53
infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
rmitageyou can check the discussion about aegin on the forums01:55
HyperSnyperDocScrutinizer51 ok tpm ?01:56
HyperSnyper*to pm01:56
DocScrutinizer51well, if you absolutely need that01:57
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DocScrutinizer51last state abot airodump?02:00
DocScrutinizer51works with stock kernel or needs PK/special-driver for wifi?02:00
DocScrutinizer51HyperSnyper: check repos for aircrack02:02
HyperSnyperwill do when i can ;P02:03
rmitagewhat's aerodump? one of those packet sniffing thingies?02:03
rmitageairodump i mean02:03
DocScrutinizer51the sniffing part of aircrack02:04
rmitagedoes that stuff actually work?02:04
DocScrutinizer51might need powerkernel02:04
HyperSnyperhow risky is changing kernel's ?02:05
DocScrutinizer51as there's been a bug so wifi worked only on chan 602:05
HyperSnyperalso is there a "system backup/system image" i should do when phone arrives before i start trying to break it02:05
HyperSnyperor just reflash when/if that happens02:05
DocScrutinizer51very low risk, if you do proper backups first02:05
DocScrutinizer51use backupmenu02:05
DocScrutinizer51THE backup utility app02:06
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DocScrutinizer51it does full images on boot time02:08
DocScrutinizer51not like the builtin backup app by nokia02:08
DocScrutinizer51HyperSnyper: just never dare to unintall a kernel. doesnt ork on any unix ;-)02:11
DocScrutinizer51HyperSnyper: just never dare to uninstall a kernel. doesn't work on any unix ;-)02:12
HyperSnyperi'll try remember that one :P02:12
rmitagehope you get one of the good ones HyperSnyper. Some are more overclockable than others :p02:12
HyperSnyperoh ?02:12
HyperSnyperwasn't really thinking about overclockin to be honest02:13
Kilroo1Yeah, mine is pretty stable at 850 but if I try to push it any higher it seems to get upset.02:13
* DocScrutinizer51 deprecates OC02:14
rmitagewell, overclocking has benefits, especially if you're into gaming02:14
Kilroo1I really ought to get another one, though, as a backup...even the 950 is capacative, so the chances of my ever finding a suitable replacement seem a bit slim...02:15
ShadowJKIf you're a linux user/hacker from before, also beware that the classic "apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade" is likely to blow away large chunks of the system and make the device unbootable ;)02:15
DocScrutinizer5125% more are never worth the bad feeling you might have fried it02:15
HyperSnyperthats very good to know....02:15
ShadowJKAlso, the cake^Wfstab is a lie02:16
HyperSnyperShadowJK just to know "unbootable" = bircked ?02:16
Kilroo1Maybe I'll feel adventurous again soon and try to follow one of the confusing sets of instructions for getting nitdroid to u-boot.02:16
HyperSnyperor just would need reflash02:16
rmitagehas anyone ever actually managed to fry the n900 from overclocking?02:17
DocScrutinizer51HyperSnyper: you can't brick OMAP devices, unless you OC02:17
ShadowJKIt takes serious effort to truly brick it. Although sometimes you can be fooled, because flashing doesn't work if battery is low, and battery charging does not charge sufficiently if OS doesn't boot.02:17
HyperSnypergood to know02:17
HyperSnyperi managed to brick a dreambox02:17
DocScrutinizer51rmitage: several reports02:18
HyperSnyperthat took a fair bit of effort02:18
ShadowJKrmitage, fried CPU mostly manifests in the form of "Third time THIS WEEK N900 corrupted my filesystem, I'm done!!!" type rants :P02:18
DocScrutinizer51OMAP has romboot and coldflash02:18
HyperSnyperShadowJK so can't flash if battery is low and can't charge if can't boot...02:19
rmitageoh ok02:19
HyperSnyperwhat do u do then..02:19
DocScrutinizer51HyperSnyper: exactly02:19
* HyperSnyper buys external battery charger02:19
ShadowJKexactly :-)02:19
DocScrutinizer51you'll love N90002:20
rmitageI'm more worried about the usb port breaking tbqh :p02:20
Kilroo1The fact that the n900 requires battery power to enter charging mode does get some WTF reactions sometimes.02:20
HyperSnyperyeh that scare me aswell rmitage02:20
infoboti guess usbfix is - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater)02:21
ShadowJKKilroo1, not exactly true though02:21
DocScrutinizer51Kilroo1: not true02:21
pigeonis there somewhere i could see the console output of browser or browserd on the n900?02:22
DocScrutinizer51Kilroo1: it needs battery power to *flash*02:22
Kilroo1Okay, explain the correct wording of the phenomenon I was describing then.02:22
HyperSnyperanyhow pizza time02:22
ShadowJKKilroo1, the hardware will charge a battery sufficiently to boot, after which the hardware will boot the device and hand over control to software. If software isn't there/working, no more charging.02:22
HyperSnyperthxs for the words of advice so far people02:22
Kilroo1If the battery is all the way dead, the n900 cannot charge it and an external charger is required.02:22
infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover02:22
DocScrutinizer51if your rootfs is fucked, you are in trouble02:23
rmitagecan't wait to try the new version of meego ce02:24
rmitagemight have to buy a card though02:24
Kilroo1I had never heard that before, and the closest analog I tried was with the usb cable instead of the wall charger, I think. If not, then I got c and didn't try repeating it.02:24
DocScrutinizer51you need wallcharger, PC charging doesn't work for flatbatrecover02:25
ShadowJKMy spare N900 charged and booted a battery after sitting "dead" for several months. The battery had degraded alot from sitting empty, but it still successfully charged and booted it. That battery's health is about doubly worse than what I'd consider time to replace battery at :-)02:26
Kilroo1I think I'm actually more annoyed by finding out there is a workaround after already buying an external charger in case of flatbat than I was when I found out I needed the external charger (which was, to the best of my knowledge, conventional wisdom at the time).02:27
Kilroo1Oh well.02:27
DocScrutinizer51sounds like heritage knowledge from OM Freerunner02:28
Kilroo1What does?02:29
DocScrutinizer51even there A7 version was able to boot without any bat, also half of the A6 could02:29
Kilroo1I wouldn't know about that. The information I found was specific to the n900.02:29
DocScrutinizer51but OM FR  had not real hw flatbatrecover02:30
Kilroo1Couldn't begin to recall whether it came from IRC, TMO, or someone's blog, though.02:30
DocScrutinizer51it came from a noob no matter what ;-P02:30
rmitagespeaking of tmo what's with all the spamming lately... jeez02:31
infoboti heard tmo is, or trolls, morons, oxes02:31
Kilroo1Four or five noobs at least. I didn't believe there was no workaround until it had been corroborated by several sources.02:32
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DocScrutinizer51Kilroo1: I RE'd the charging in N900 more than a year ago. Since then it's known02:33
DocScrutinizer51~factinfo flatbatrecover02:33
infobotflatbatrecover -- created by DocScrutinizer <~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon Jul 26 02:02:58 2010 (427 days); last modified at Mon Jul 26 02:06:16 2010 by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 35 times, last by DocScrutinizer51, 10m 54s ago.02:33
Kilroo1I suppose I could try to look up when I got the external charger.02:34
rmitagewell there are some obnoxious fools on tmo, Doc. But some pretty cool people as well02:37
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HyperSnypersame as any site then ?02:40
DocScrutinizerheh, I'm posting to tmo as well smetimes ;-P02:41
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DocScrutinizerdon't read a single thread though unless somebody points me at it02:42
DocScrutinizeror I started it02:42
HyperSnyperwould an app running in deb chroot have access to the n900's bluetooth ?02:42
DocScrutinizererr, via /dev and /sys, why not?02:43
HyperSnypernot sure why not, just wanted to ask :P02:43
DocScrutinizerdepends on wha you bindmount into your chroot root02:43
HyperSnypershould really just wait till it arrives and try myself02:43
DocScrutinizerfor obvious reasons dbus msgs won't probably work though02:44
DocScrutinizerdunno how BT is usually accessed02:44
DocScrutinizerafail it's plain Bluez02:45
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DocScrutinizerso I'd guess it probably will work02:45
ShadowJKbluez is increasingly dbus based :/02:47
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DocScrutinizeryeah, that's why I mentioned dbus02:47
DocScrutinizeryou *could* make dbus share the chroot as well02:47
DocScrutinizeriirc it's also basically just a file in /tmp02:48
DocScrutinizersession + system02:49
DocScrutinizerbut that's definitely non-trivial to make it work02:49
DocScrutinizerHyperSnyper: if you can't wait anymore - there are a few N900 on Nokia's RDA02:51
DocScrutinizerquite boring (and probably even worse than qemu+xephyr based SDK emu), but a way to "get in touch"02:52
DocScrutinizerHyperSnyper: if you want to dive into it head first, then I suggest you install scratchbox maemo SDK02:54
DocScrutinizeryou could have your first app ready to install and run when your device arrives02:54
opdf2man been seeing a lot of sports tv show streams on tmo02:55
DocScrutinizeroh, the spam continues? I wonder how long it takes reggie to implement some proper captchas and maybe even my suggested virtual currency system for "paying" your posts02:57
rmitagethat's a pretty good idea actually02:59
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rmitagebased on number of posts, thanks or the ratio between the two maybe?03:01
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DocScrutinizeralso based on your karma from activities, as of
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DocScrutinizeradd in number of months you are a member of community (aka account age), and this determines your weekly "wages", with a "bonus" for posts that got thanked by senior members03:04
DocScrutinizerPLUS I *DEMAND* a "frown" button that is enabled for senior members only and will reduce the account of the one posting the msg that get "frowned" by a noticeable amount of $currency03:06
DocScrutinizerspammers never would arrive to get enough balance on their virtual currency account to post *any* spam03:07
rmitagehehehe a frown button would also ensure some posters like a certain one from the uk would spare us all from their ramblings03:08
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DocScrutinizermaybe you could even "donate" $currency to other users, as an emphasized form of hitting "tnaks"03:10
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rmitageSeems like a great idea. I swear some people there get their kicks from annoying everyone else03:11
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rmitageI wonder how feasible it is03:11
DocScrutinizertechnically? no problem03:11
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DocScrutinizermanpower though... :-S03:12
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DocScrutinizerit seems maemo IT is semi-orphaned03:13
DocScrutinizerevrybody's riding the meego-train now - a pity03:14
rmitageyeah :/03:15
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DocScrutinizeras meego as in HARM is a red herring03:15
DocScrutinizerand meegoCE isn't much better03:15
rmitageyeah? I thought it might be a way to extend the n900's life a bit if compatible with harmattan03:16
rmitageisn't it the case?03:17
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DocScrutinizermeh, how's N900-meegoCE going to be compatible with HARM? not even inputmethod is implementable on N90003:17
DocScrutinizerthe whole GUI concept wails epically on N90003:18
rmitagehadn't thought of that tbqh... capacitive screen.03:19
DocScrutinizermeegoCE is having a hard time to be compatible on N903:19
DocScrutinizeras the whole swipe-UI is closed03:19
* DocScrutinizer btw hates the swipe-UI concept03:19
javispedroDocScrutinizer: what are you saying now? =)03:20
DocScrutinizerto be more specific I hate the idea of not usually closing any app, and also of not having any homescreen whatsoever03:20
rmitagehaven't seen much of it to be honest. what's wrong with it?03:20
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Swipe-down (in latest)03:21
DocScrutinizeryeah, a hack03:21
DocScrutinizerthis is a GUI for retard^Wtypical smartphone users03:22
DocScrutinizerno way it's intended to "bring PC experience to the phone" as NIT always been03:23
javispedroare you seriously complaining that the lack of a close button is the cause of that? =)03:24
javispedrocause it's quite easy to reenable in the theme file03:24
DocScrutinizerI outright can't see how OOo is ever running in a usable way on N903:24
javispedro(MeegoCE has always had a close button)03:24
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javispedroit will run same as on the N900: barely. the windows manager is only slightly worse.03:25
javispedro(with its lack of support for xrandr... :( )03:25
DocScrutinizerthe idea of easy porting of standard linux X apps to the phone is completely obsolete03:25
rmitagewell I guess they're trying to appeal to phone operators and a broader audience :/03:26
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: for the sake of god, please try it before complaining03:27
* DocScrutinizer figures javispedro moving thru the dropdown app menus with the cursor keys of the vkbd... ooops no cursor keys03:27
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DocScrutinizerand no hwkbd at all03:27
SpeedEvilOO was very, very sluggish when I tries it in qemu03:27
SpeedEvileasy debina03:27
javispedroDocScrutinizer: the lack of vkb integration is a point, but it is fixable.03:28
DocScrutinizerthe whole concept of the GUI is *not* "fixable"03:28
javispedrobut what's the problem with the UI03:28
javispedroI've been running gedit for a while and I've had virtually no problems except for the friggin ugly gray bar at the bottom that occupies a lot of space which is clearly a bug03:29
DocScrutinizerit's been designed off the scratch with smartphone in mind, rather than "PC experience"03:29
DocScrutinizer*from scratch*03:30
javispedrothere's no problem with the window manager save for the gray bar when running X11 apps03:31
DocScrutinizereven the hardware isn't capable of playing PC03:31
javispedrothe largest problem is called "capacitive".03:31
SpeedEvilI have to say, I've not had major issues with the capacitive screen.03:31
DocScrutinizeryes, exactly03:31
DocScrutinizerc-ts is the killer for a decent PC-like UI03:32
DocScrutinizerthat plus the lack of hw-kbd03:32
* javispedro sighs as we already had the "they broke the PC-like UI" war when Fremantle was released03:33
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: no surprise, as highlighting for c&p isn't working anywhere virtually03:33
javispedrowith the 64! pixel height buttons and worse03:33
rmitagestill those linux ports with their tiny buttons must be a nightmare on capacitive screens03:33
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: hmm - point03:33
* DocScrutinizer waves03:33
SpeedEvilIs there a drawing app in ovi?03:34
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DocScrutinizerthis been the right sentence for all of us to ponder about it til next time we talk about it03:36
SpeedEvilSome people need set on fire.03:36
SpeedEvil'Face painting news'03:36
SpeedEvilyet another RSS app03:37
javispedroFace painting news?03:37
rmitagelol who would have known from that name :p03:37
SpeedEvilIt could be an application which would violate the terms of service of ovi store actually.03:38
DocScrutinizerwe've seen awesome paintings, on a competition level, made on N900. I've never seen same on iPhone, nor will we see it on N903:38
* SpeedEvil wonders why the store is not responding03:39
javispedroOvi QA is done by Elop himself who rejects any potentially useful app =)03:41
SpeedEvilah - 'my little artist'03:41
javispedroj/k, there's at least one useful app ;P03:41
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javispedroSpeedEvil: another RSS reader03:41
DocScrutinizerI bet there ill be zealots that try to teach us we're "holding it wrong" and with a c-ts you don't paint anymore (and don't c&p anymore, and don't want rich menues anymore...), but rather do XY and we all had to switch to Xy now03:42
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rmitagegoing to bed. c ya guys03:44
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DocScrutinizersame zealots that teach us that no app should bother about filesystem and pathnames anymore, as some magic tracker will offer "just the right files" for each app, each usecase, always03:45
DocScrutinizerwhat a hybris03:45
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DocScrutinizeroh, missed that one in my top-10 of the worst ideas and concepts of the past, resurrected in harmattan03:48
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DocScrutinizergoes right on top, even before missing close button on #3 and missing c&p and missing homescreen sharing #203:50
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DocScrutinizerwhile aegis is master of the universe and not even competing here03:52
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SpeedEvili need transparent fingers.04:03
SpeedEvilthe 'my little artist' thing is crap - it's to make pretty patterns only04:04
DocScrutinizerthe joys of c-ts04:04
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SpeedEvilhaven't tried a c-stylus04:04
* SpeedEvil wonders.04:04
javispedrothey're useless04:05
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javispedrowell, I only tried on the lenovo, which according to some, is absolute crap.04:05
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DocScrutinizerthere are like 6 different technologies of what's called c-ts04:06
Sc0rpiusLenovo K1?04:07
DocScrutinizeron some a stylus may work, on others... not04:07
SpeedEvila teaspoon works - sort-of, but not on the handle end.04:07
SpeedEvilNeed to do some playing with resistors and tiny metal disks.04:08
DocScrutinizertry a statically charged object04:09
DocScrutinizerand try a penny on a wooden stick04:10
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DocScrutinizer(the former might work on c-ts of electret type, the second with those of RF type)04:11
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SpeedEvilisolated penny - no04:26
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SpeedEvil need to touch the case04:26
DocScrutinizeryeah, that'S what I noticed as well, as the ts refuses to work otherwise, when sitting here plugged to charger and I try to operate it with one hand only04:30
DocScrutinizerwould suggest it's an electret type of c-ts04:31
DocScrutinizer(or one that creates the RF dipole between screen electrodes and "GND" rather than between two electrodes of screen)04:32
DocScrutinizeraka matrix type04:33
DocScrutinizerpulse rows, check for capacitive coupling to cols04:33
DocScrutinizeriPhone is said to have electret type, allegedly static charge in electret vanishes in less than 2 years if you're cursed with bad luck04:35
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: if you got a mega high Z voltmeter (like the one heathkit meter based on an electron tube I once had), you may coonect one probe to the USB shielding GND and the other one to a penny, then approach the ts with the penny and watch for charge to build up. Only if that's an electret type c-ts04:42
DocScrutinizeropen LCD may work too04:42
SpeedEvili'll poke it with the scope tomorrow04:42
DocScrutinizerscope is way too low Z04:43
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DocScrutinizerhas usually <=10M input Z04:43
SpeedEvilit will show the waveform04:43
DocScrutinizeronly when it's a RF type04:43
DocScrutinizerotherwise all you see are interferences from the LCD driver04:44
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RST38hMoo gentlemen10:34
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freemangordon___~seen Pali10:43
infobotpali <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 5d 12h 14m 4s ago, saying: 'ping DocScrutinizer'.10:43
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SpeedEvilAre nokia warranties - EU - portable across countries?12:11
SpeedEvilCould I send my phone to a country that's shipping the n9 for repair, in the hopes of getting a n9 as a replacement?12:11
SpeedEvilThough I'd be holding od till there is some clarity on the state of the release image12:12
IkarusSpeedEvil: yes12:13
IkarusSpeedEvil: also just ask Nokia for a Maemo/Meego phone12:13
Ikarusthey tried to dump a N8 on me, until I reminded them it's not equivilent by far due to not running proper Linux12:13
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RST38h"Although there are talented people still there, a lot of talented folks have left MSFT senior leadership in the past 18 months or so - Liddell, Elop, Muglia, Bach, etc, etc. Although Elop was instrumental in getting the Nokia deal up and going"12:34
ruskieRST38h, that basically explains it all12:35
RST38h"MSFT is still very strong in the enterprise but to the consumer, MSFT seems completely dead. MSFT has no consumer mindshare any longer"12:35
* SpeedEvil imagines that as the announcement of Rebecca Black coming onboard as microsoft head of marketing.12:36
RST38hThe comments! The comments!!!12:37
RST38h"The review results this year looks opposite to the actual work. Good engineers who, is used to own code, are getting 4 and 5, so they are leaving, but the ones, who is awarded the top scores, are unable to manage the inherited code base."12:37
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RST38hEven more fun:
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Trewasin other news nokia announced that they actually started shipping N9 to operators/retailers12:44
RST38hDid they announce it at somebody's personal blog? =)12:44
Trewas probably in the wrong language for some :)12:45
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SpeedEvilSurprisingly cheap in some ways12:48
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SpeedEvilThe rumored prices were much higher.12:49
nid0before taxes though, so shop prices probably will be noticeably more12:49
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SpeedEvilI forgot VAT - true12:51
SpeedEvilBang on 500 pounds.12:51
ruskieyeah VAT and the shops own margin12:51
ruskiedepending on the shop12:52
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infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
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JaffaMorning, all14:10
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DocScrutinizerBWAHAHA >> "With the innovations in industrial design, user interface, **and_the_Qt_developer_experience**, the Nokia N9 sets the bar for how natural technology can feel...<<14:34
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DocScrutinizer  16GB 614,99 € - 836,90 €   64GB 699,00 € - 1.015,90 €14:44
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DocScrutinizerif I buy 2 pcs N900, I also got 64GB and sigma 1GHz CPU ;-P14:45
DocScrutinizerfor same money to shell out14:45
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brikbut you can't get a pink N90014:48
DocScrutinizerOK no (mostly useless) NFC, but then double screen area, two hw kbds, NO AEGIS lockdown to OVI store...14:48
DocScrutinizerand I probably can even find two pink spare N900 2nd-source cases in China, and somebody to mount those for me, and still save enough for a coffee to enjoy all this ;-D14:49
DocScrutinizerbtw there have been first reports of shadow-images burnt in to amoled screen after as short as a few minutes of static content display14:51
DocScrutinizeryet unconfirmed14:51
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DocScrutinizerplus a lot of testers frowned on pentile pixel scheme14:54
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DocScrutinizeron the bright side: it's shiny14:57
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acidspunkhey everyone15:11
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MohammadAGcan someone post the greek sum ascii letter16:33
MohammadAGtimes like this i wish the N950 had cp in browser16:36
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Sicelopost it to swaziland :P16:36
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fizzieNitpick time, apologies in advance. Unicode has the "n-ary summation" mathematical operator ∑, and the Greek capital letter sigma Σ (which are different); there's no "greek sum letter", and definitely no "greek sum ascii letter".16:50
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Siceloapologies accepted16:51
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DocScrutinizeractually they differ in rendering on my IRC client here17:53
DocScrutinizermath operator way taller17:54
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DocScrutinizerpossibly using max line height17:55
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ruskie <-- erm21:00
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dm8tbrruskie: you missed all the fun in #meego-bar then21:50
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