IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-09-08

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alien_what would be the best way to add an environment variable visible in all the applications launched from the UI?00:06
alien_I don't know why my device lacks INTERNAL_MMC_MOUNTPOINT and my camera reports no available space, although there are quite a few free GBs00:07
scoobertronalien_: are you sure the camera is saving to the right place?  I had a similar difficulty until I realised the camera was trying to save to the rootfs instead of home00:08
alien_scoobertron: I checked for this too00:08
alien_I only have MMC_MOUNTPOINT defined in my environment00:10
MohammadAGenv | grep MyDocs00:11
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alien_that's all I get00:12
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alien_MohammadAG: do you have INTERNAL_MMC_MOUNTPOINT set?00:15
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alien_I added it to .profile, let's see00:20
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alien_MohammadAG: that did the trick00:30
alien_I just added export INTERNAL_MMC_MOUNTPOINT=/home/user/MyDocs00:31
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javispedrostupid new laptop computer decided to _suspend_ while burning recovery disks00:53
javispedroI thought this would be a fixed problem in this day and age in windows...00:54
javispedroobviously, trashed disks00:54
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macmaNuh guys what ip are you getting for repository.maemo.org01:08
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SpeedEvilwill vary01:17
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DocScrutinizer> host has address has address
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DocScrutinizerhmm, wasn't also a google dns?01:43
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: (suspend) I seem to recall a suspend blacklist of binaries01:46
nox-is google01:46
DocScrutinizeraaah thanks01:46
DocScrutinizerdoesn't work either01:47
DocScrutinizeroops01:47 has address has address
DocScrutinizer8.8.8.4 obviously doesn't work ;-P01:47
DocScrutinizerso let's hope macmaN found an IP that works for him :-D01:49
ShadowJK8.8.8.8 is also google public dns. might be easier to remember01:51
ShadowJKah you already did :P01:51
* ShadowJK was too busy looking at a beerbrewing machine to pageup01:52
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kerioDocScrutinizer: why doesn't it work?02:02
kerioit's sensible for a hostname to have multiple A and AAAA records02:02
DocScrutinizer8.8.4.4 works, not02:03
nid0I never remember google's second address, but have opendns' thoroughly ingrained in my memory02:04
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WaltertoxHello guys.. I installed power kernel48 and my camera does not work atm. is there anyway to fix this?02:34
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DocScrutinizeruninstall and reinstall all the additional camera apps you got03:34
DocScrutinizerthe drivers need update03:34
DocScrutinizerthe old augmented camera kernel driver modules don't match the new kernel03:35
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* DocScrutinizer wonders why t F this particular module isn't upgraded with the other PK-modules03:36
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DocScrutinizermeh, he's gone anyway03:37
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DocScrutinizerdrive-by asker :-(03:37
* DocScrutinizer hates it03:37
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, fyi I found the culprit:
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cehtehin what repo is netcat available .. or better can anyone please give me the binary only (recovering device with full rootfs)08:38
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cehtehgot it08:42
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cehtehits not a good idea to place the n900 in front of the laptop where its bluetooth antenna is08:59
cehtehmouse becomes very jerky08:59
Venemonah, I need to leave now... going to class :)09:00
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psycho_oreoswireless mouse?09:02
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slonopotamusMohammadAG: ping09:07
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: so you are going to fix it and patch the package?09:46
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, I've fixed it (rather.. I'm using the lazy way out), as for patching the package? not likely at this point lol my patch isn't worth considering to be frank.. I really need to look deeper into the scripts to understand it all, I skimmed through the script but was quite confused so I'm gonna not bother with it until I have a nice sysimage :)09:48
psycho_oreosalso, I know this is really really old stuff but the other day I flipped my device (N900) upside-down whilst the car was still somewhat warm (though getting cooler because of aircon was running) as I was driving back home. The result with LED? no difference, it still dims its brightness level09:49
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psycho_oreosso yeah its the temp sensor elsewhere09:49
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DocScrutinizernot so old stuff. I also tried a few things, but found no further clear details on what's going on. Except it's related to high temperature but missing the additional bits relevant for it to show up09:58
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cehteh-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 5.0G Sep  8 09:10 mydocs.img10:06
cehteh ... eek image backup over wlan takes some time10:06
psycho_oreoswell WLAN tops out at around 1-2MBps, go figure :)10:07
cehtehmaybe i should add a compress into that pipe10:08
cehtehwell too late now10:08
cehtehi just wait10:08
psycho_oreosheh I wouldn't have a clue on where else to search for info as to why LED would automatically diminish its brightness intensity :/ but I've tried flipping the device over which is no dice as well.. oh well10:08
psycho_oreosI've learnt that pretty much when I was doing rsync (really bad idea imo)10:09
cehtehwhat led dimming problem do you have?10:09
cehtehdisplay or notification?10:10
psycho_oreosif anything it'll be nice to somehow have N900 either connected to the wired LAN via mUSB -> Cat5/6/etc cable + charger lead or maybe just go through USB networking lol10:10
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psycho_oreosnotification, it does that when it senses differences in ambient temperatures10:10
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psycho_oreosits not too much of a big deal but it was definitely evident :)10:11
psycho_oreoserr big deal (for me that is)10:11
cehtehsure its not just lighting level?10:12
psycho_oreosand speaking previously slightly on patching packages, I was pondering on the thought of recreating a big midi_addon package lol10:12
cehtehwell my notification led sometimes behave strangely too10:12
psycho_oreosif you leave your N900 out in the sun for maybe 5 minutes and take it back in, it'll dim the LED level on the notification light10:13
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cehtehthat new to me10:13
bash`hi all, aptitude segfault here and never worked. is this a known issue?10:13
cehtehsome people told it turns off when the brightness sensor gets excessive light10:13
psycho_oreosits to do with a temperature gauge, DocScrutinizer is far more knowledgable to me in this area. I've noticed that when he was mentioned this awhile ago, before then I was thinking it was just me that was seeing notification LED was dimming due to ambient heat variances10:14
psycho_oreosnot the LED screen, the LED notification light :)10:14
psycho_oreosbash`, yes, aptitude GUI10:14
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bash`psycho_oreos: yep, we cannot do anything about?10:14
psycho_oreosbash`, however aptitude CLI works fine however10:15
cehtehi was always wondering why mce doesnt modulate the led by ambient light10:15
cehtehprolly they had a half baked attempt in it which now bugs :P10:15
psycho_oreosbash`, MohammadAG was the one that made the package, he said something about a missing/broken dep that makes aptitude not work10:15
bash`psycho_oreos: you mean 'aptitude update/install/remove', yes they work here10:15
psycho_oreoscehteh, *shrugs* that's nokia for you ;) but yeah10:15
psycho_oreosbash`, yes aptitude why, etc :D10:15
bash`psycho_oreos: ok, then I should read debian dependencies10:15
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bash`psycho_oreos: where I can found an howto about packaging for maemo?10:16
psycho_oreosbash`, iirc there might have been a tmo thread about it.. maybe bugs.maemo or wiki.maemo.. *shrugs* I may have seen the issue in detail somewhere10:16
psycho_oreosbash`, err that too lol10:16
psycho_oreosthat also reminds me.. I'm about to find that `cheatsheet' on repackaging deb10:17
bash`psycho_oreos: I usually use qtcreator :P10:17
bash`but I guess isn't a clean solution10:17
bash`I download the code, apply patch, build in qt creator, then I get it installed on my n90010:17
psycho_oreosbash`, I'm using that dpkg method (which obviously requires one to have at least dpkg-dev installed)10:18
bash`"22 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded" <3 loves this10:18
DocScrutinizercehteh: psycho_oreos: I have the weird idea of LED chip heating up by direct sun radiation falling on the chip thru the light path10:18
bash`psycho_oreos: you build your package on the n900 or on the pc?10:18
cehtehi never seen that problem10:19
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, if you're referring to light path being on the upside of N900, it isn't :) its definitely a temperature sensor somewhere inside just taking ambient temps10:19
cehtehor the color led is temperature senstive :P10:20
psycho_oreosbash`, PC initially but for repackaging I use N90010:20
DocScrutinizerthere's no other sound story about why ind LED dims with high ambient temp and sunlight, but *not* when running e.g. video playback for hours and heating up the whole device to 60°C by that10:20
psycho_oreoscehteh, the colour LED is the LED we were on about :) notification LED in other words10:20
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: nope, I guess the LED itself is the temp sensor10:21
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cehtehyes sometimes µC do such tricks10:21
cehtehbut well there are certainly temperature sensors on the board too10:21
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, ahh well that goes back to what you said :) like I said, I've flipped my device upside down when car was warm and device was randomly exposed to sunlight. It didn't help10:22
cehtehevery LCD screen needs one for callibration10:22
cehtehbut i dont know if thats exposed10:22
DocScrutinizernonono, the LP5523 just has a very sophisticated compensation based on temperature, and I guess that runs completely out of rail when temp of LP5523 chip is different to the temp of LED itself10:22
cehtehthe cpu has a temperature sensor too or? .. and there is some ambient temp sensor10:22
cehtehpsycho_oreos: put it in a fridge :P10:23
DocScrutinizerthe LP5523 HAS temp sensor10:23
psycho_oreosI don't think the CPU itself has temperature sensor, it was covered on tmo pk thread that bq2x00 also shows temp readings10:23
psycho_oreoscehteh, no thanks :)10:24
DocScrutinizer(cpu also has one, but that's irrelevant and also broken)10:24
cehtehyes there are likely more than one temp sensor, maybe some are not exposed10:24
cehtehthe LED flash prolly has one too10:24
cehtehdoes the camera module need one for calibration too? dunno10:25
DocScrutinizerLP5523 has a temp compensation coefficient setting, sth about +-NNNN 0/00 per °C10:25
robbiethe1stI thought it would just do current-limiting?10:25
DocScrutinizerdunno if and how that register is initialized10:25
cehtehwhere is the temp sensor for the battery?10:25
DocScrutinizercheck the component placement in schematics10:26
cehtehheh :)10:26
cehtehrobbiethe1st: btw did you meanwhile fixed the filesystem handling in backup menu? (mount -t auto ...)10:26
DocScrutinizerfin R111010:26
robbiethe1stUh, no. Haven't messed with it since the last update a while back10:27
DocScrutinizerthe flash controller has no temp compensation afaik10:27
cehtehi fucked my device up, currently backing up and then to a complete reflash10:27
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robbiethe1stAnd I've been very hesitent to do *anything* right now, because I lost most of my PC's data, which means I don't have flasher etc handy10:27
DocScrutinizerooh, ugh10:28
cehtehrobbiethe1st: i used backup menu to backup, then updated the kernel, then cssu install fucked up, restored from backup menu, but that installed the wrong kernel modules .. *BOOOOM*10:28
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cehtehrobbiethe1st: would be nice if backupmenu could validate to restore on the same kernel version10:29
DocScrutinizerhehe, I strongly suggested to add kernel backup yesterday ;-)10:29
cehtehyes i seen that10:29
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cehtehwell even if not at least it could bail out when kernel doesnt match or do not clean the partition before restoring10:29
DocScrutinizerso standard would be to backup/restore both same time10:29
DocScrutinizerrootfs & kernel10:29
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DocScrutinizercehteh: VERY hard to do such kernel tricks like verification10:30
cehtehnot really10:30
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe md5sum, but MEH10:30
robbiethe1st...I suppose I could try doing a uname -r and seeing if that folder exists within the right part of the rootfs directory structure10:30
robbiethe1stBecause that's the real problem10:30
DocScrutinizerthen what? refuse restore?10:31
cehtehjust this uname check and have a option to restore without deleting the filesystem before10:31
cehtehgive an option .. or more like "dont wipe kernel modules"10:31
DocScrutinizerI'm not averse if BM throws a warning. Anything beyond... :-/10:31
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cehtehwell if restore bricks the device then i call that disfunctional :P10:32
DocScrutinizerwell, not deleting modules sounds like a rather brilliant concept10:32
cehtehbut none to blame but myself...10:32
robbiethe1stYou can always just load the kernel manually10:32
robbiethe1stthrough flasher10:32
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robbiethe1stI might be able to do something like that; have it say "kernel stuff is missing", and then give an option to continue anyway or use the modules from the current FS or abort10:32
cehtehwell my device was partially bricked before10:32
DocScrutinizerpretty please do not try to outsmart user10:33
cehtehso i invoked restore10:33
bash`MohammadAG: thank you for your great work!10:33
cehtehwhich was the final nail on the coffin :P10:33
robbiethe1stNah; you can always -- now -- load that kernel with the -K option, and it'll boot fine10:33
cehtehrobbiethe1st: just an  option not to delete the filesystem and restore overwriting existing file then would be enough10:33
DocScrutinizerrobbiethe1st: tagging backups with uname-a was a great idea anyway10:34
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DocScrutinizercombine that with "restore all but modules"10:34
DocScrutinizerhappy camper10:34
cehtehyou can restore modules10:34
cehtehbut dont wipe existing ones before restore, let restore overwrite10:35
DocScrutinizercombine that with an option "restore all but modules"10:35
DocScrutinizerto be verbouse10:35
psycho_oreosbash`, repacking deb (I can't find that tmo thread, I swear that bookmark is on my desktop PC which has a dead PSU :/): <--- search for time 13:05 and user named prahal10:35
cehtehthe problem is the wiping10:35
ruskie <-- erm10:35
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robbiethe1stNah; what I'd do is simply copy them out of the ramdisk after I'm done with the restore10:35
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robbiethe1stSeeing as I have em all copied over anyway in recent versions10:35
psycho_oreosbash`, s/05/08/10:36
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bash`psycho_oreos: great! thanks10:36
cehtehrobbiethe1st: actually i would unpack the tar over a existing filesystem (without rm before)10:36
DocScrutinizerhave to run, but this needs further discussion to find the best scheme10:36
ruskie <-- hmm10:36
robbiethe1stcehteh, Nah... then you end up with conflicting files and such. Or at least losing all your space10:36
psycho_oreosbash`, nw10:36
cehtehand after that in userland (or maybe from BM) i would have a option to delete files left over (tar -tf and diff that with whats existing)10:37
cehtehonly if the filesystem explodes (full) i'd fall back to a shell for the user to clean up manually10:37
robbiethe1stNah; for advanced stuff like that you should simply use the terminal mode. Then you can restore/list/copy whatever the hell you want10:38
cehtehwell you know the program i dont :) prolly i should have read the manual before :P10:39
cehtehanyways like doc saied, not removing modules would be the next best choice10:39
robbiethe1stThe current version has a built-in terminal mode(requires power-kernel, though), as well as a remote terminal over SSH or serial-console-over-USB10:40
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cehtehyes but you have to know where the backups are stored and how the system is rigged when you are in BM10:40
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psycho_oreosoh robbiethe1st, I could never get root terminal/console over serial to work, initially they complained login applet not found so I copied over the login applet (which is part of busybox). It then complained about /bin/bash not found so I created a test user with ash environment and its still failing to give me a prompt saying that /bin/ash is not found when there's already a symlink to the busybox bin10:41
ruskie <-- sure...10:41
psycho_oreos /home/user/MyDocs/systemBackup10:41
robbiethe1stFuck BSA10:41
psycho_oreossomething like that10:41
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robbiethe1stBut, erm, I have to say that if people are messing around with mixed backups, they darn well better be understanding the internals of the system10:42
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robbiethe1stOtherwise, they can simply take a backup of the broken system, restore to known-good, and then open the broken tar-files from within Maemo(or a PC) copy over what they want10:42
robbiethe1st(which would generally just be a file or two)10:42
psycho_oreosruskie, its like BSA themselves never committed any sins before whinging of others doing so :) funny ironically10:43
cehtehrobbiethe1st: well then at first some sanity check that a restore will not conflict with the kernel would be nice10:43
robbiethe1stcehteh, That I will do. And the kernel-module-check/restore bit.10:44
robbiethe1stThat sounds good to me10:44
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cehtehbtw instead of tarm squashfs the backup would be a nice option, compresses better, faster and preserves attributes better than tar10:44
cehteh(not that this is really needed)10:44
cehtehbut one could mount the backup directly for selective restore10:45
psycho_oreosor why not use the technique DocScrutinizer discovered, using that mtd_debug tool :)10:45
cehtehand yes that would only work on power kernels10:45
DocScrutinizermtdtools pkg10:45
cehtehDocScrutinizer: does that work on the n900?10:46
psycho_oreosand whats even more is that I think you might be able to mount it on the fly10:46
psycho_oreoscehteh, yes10:46
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cehtehimo the whole rootfs should be a squashfs ..10:46
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robbiethe1stI thought squashfs wasn't writable?10:47
psycho_oreosits ubifs for stability10:47
cehteh(and a unionfs for changed things)10:47
cehtehah yes i forgot ubi :P10:47
cehtehwell there is no stable unionfs in the kernel yet grr10:47
cehtehthat would solve a shitload of problems, the rootfs could be readonly, never reflash to get back to a pristine state10:48
psycho_oreosand you can't have more userland CLI tools :p10:49
Termanagood morning10:49
psycho_oreosthat plus many other flaws10:49
* RST38h moos10:49
cehtehpsycho_oreos: why that?10:49
robbiethe1stcehteh, erm...10:49
* psycho_oreos imagines busybox-power would never install as well10:49
robbiethe1stcehteh, The rootfs rairly fails. It's the optfs that always does so10:49
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robbiethe1stcehteh, That's why BackupMenu will almost always boot when things break - because it only uses stuff on the rootfs10:50
cehtehwell the whole optfs idea is borked10:50
psycho_oreosits better than sticking with 256MB of usable space :)10:50
cehtehthats completely unrelated10:51
psycho_oreosoptfs idea was to expand the limitations of NAND's limited space :p sure its not ideal but its better than nothing.. and what would have been ideal is if the whole thing were to not be running on NAND space10:52
cehtehuse nand for readonly essential things10:52
cehtehdo bind mounts or unionfs mounts10:52
cehtehbut not this crappy optification10:53
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infoboti heard optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot310:53
cehtehi used to setup normal systems with 16MB rootfs which have not this limitations as the nokia setup has10:53
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edheldilcehteh:  that would make problems with updating the rootfs, though10:53
psycho_oreosI wouldn't do that personally.. 256MB NAND is especially useful as a fast swap space :p as compared to swapping on eMMC as is with having more space on NAND than on eMMC10:53
cehtehedheldil: no it wont10:53
cehtehyou cant swap to nand and if that wears out then your device is really a brick10:54
psycho_oreoscorrection, the speed comparisons on NAND and eMMC is really neglegible10:54
cehtehmore ram and compcache ftw :P10:54
DocScrutinizer51no need for bindmounts, a normal mount of an usr partition is all it needs10:55
psycho_oreosits bound to wear out.. even eMMC doesn't last a lifetime :p10:55
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: yes even that, but with bind mounts it could be done little more elegantly10:55
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cehtehnormal fstab setup, maybe initrd boot, then the initrd could be on nand, and users can fuck up their userland without bricking the device10:56
cehtehthis charge mode (if it would be necessary, i even doubt that) could be a initrd state10:56
* DocScrutinizer51 ponders to put orphaned initrd partition to use10:57
cehtehmaybe even kexec into a user installable kernel from the readonly boot kernel in nand10:57
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cehtehi really wonder what the nokia guys who did that have smoked, looks to me that they never worked on linux/unix before and then decided to reinvent their own wheels10:58
DocScrutinizer51funny enough we had lots of it on diablo10:58
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infobot:), DocScrutinizer5111:09
edheldilthat j* tether thing in meego is reinvention of linux iptables rewriting, is not it?11:10
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kerioDocScrutinizer51: make me a linux phone with no horrendously stupid decisions pls11:11
DocScrutinizer51dunno meego, harmattan seems to have quite standard iptables11:11
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DocScrutinizer51kerio: will take like 5 iterations, as initially you dunno what's stupid11:12
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DocScrutinizer51maemo had just enough iterations when they abandoned it11:12
kerioDocScrutinizer51: ok, start iterating, i'll pay you when you're done11:13
DocScrutinizer51some things however, like '256MB will never be enough' ae easy to tell aforehand11:14
kerioDocScrutinizer51: let's add a touchscreen to the back of the openpandora!11:14
DocScrutinizer51sure, why not11:15
kerioor... huh, make the screen turnable11:15
DocScrutinizer51just Openpandora, duh!11:15
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keriothen we add a modem11:15
keriodesigning phones is easy11:15
DocScrutinizer51I planned exactly that, with raster11:16
DocScrutinizer51pandora dudes weren't even interested in any dialog11:16
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kerioalso the openpandora still has the 256mb problem ._.11:18
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fluxwho needs any on-board memory, just put everything into the cloud?-o11:25
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kerioflux: oh you :)11:30
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DocScrutinizersure, netboot, lean client, cool. just gimme a wireless network technology that offers connectivity everywhere, with minimal battery requirements ;-P11:41
RST38hNFC? =)11:41
DocScrutinizerseems to me that's about what iPhone initial design been all about X-P11:41
DocScrutinizerRST38h: and what will I do when the device is more than 5cm away from the "AP" implanted in my palm?11:42
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: biggier antenna :)11:50
* DocScrutinizer ponders heading out getting tea and shocking some Nokia store drones with a N95011:51
cehtehin what way?11:53
cehteh"please can you update the OS for me"?11:53
cehtehor "I need a 2nd one for my GF"11:54
cehtehor "Found this in a bar, do you know what it is?"11:54
cehteh.. "Nokia send it to me, it sux, could you take it back?" :)11:56
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edheldilI would be careful with that last one11:58
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* RST38h clicked on "reload" and got the "new tablet-improved" UI.12:07
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psycho_oreoslol this'll be interesting, still in the middle of upgrading CSSU and got a phone call from me mate. He prank called me and when I tried returning his call twice I couldn't connect to him lol12:25
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DocScrutinizernobody toldya to remove SIM prior to major firmware upgrades? :-S12:37
DocScrutinizerever heard about "cherry" ?12:38
psycho_oreoswell you see normally its meant to set the device into offline mode if one were sane (and used HAM), but I wasn't sane and I used fapman lol12:38
psycho_oreosyeah I know all those12:38
psycho_oreosI'm sure I won't be seeing `cherry states' unless I do a complete reflash :D12:39
psycho_oreosand I won't be looking forward to that either12:39
DocScrutinizerhonestly, installing CSSU via fapman is completely nuts12:41
DocScrutinizercehteh: I'll just ask for accessories for that particular model ;-P12:41
ruskiemake sure to have a hidden camera or something12:42
psycho_oreosI also seriously do not understand how much space and where exactly does it need that space in HAM for CSSU update. I have (at time of writing) 30 or so MB of rootfs space + 77MB or so space for optfs. Mind you this is with a heavily optified setup and lots of butchered rootfs userland CLI tools installed (when one was not supposed to install the said tools on N900's rootfs)12:43
psycho_oreosand voice recording on N900 ;)12:43
psycho_oreosahh it used up optfs.. now to reboot and see the glory..12:44
ruskieor the gore ;)12:44
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psycho_oreosI'll be prepared with a sigh for a gore :) I've just gone through there not long ago (yesterday)12:44
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ruskieI haven't needed a fresh flash in ages now(*knock on wood*)12:45
psycho_oreosand again thanks tremendously to robbiethe1st for his BM, or I'd be pulling me hair out for the Nth(!!) time12:45
DocScrutinizer30M root + 77M opt, omg12:47
psycho_oreosyesterday I tried to backup my setup before upgrading the CSSU, turns out I had fubared optfs+eMMC (both ext3). I fsck both three times and cleared the errors (until basically fsck ran cleanly) and I had a fubared setup :)12:47
psycho_oreossmall isn't it? ;)12:48
psycho_oreos30M root + 77M opt :)12:48
robbiethe1stDw, I'll be tearing my hair out for you!12:48
robbiethe1stWell, as soon as I start trying to port the damn thing to the N95012:48
psycho_oreoslol no need :) and plus you'll have more fun.. as you just spilled the beans lol12:49
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robbiethe1stIt's not exactly private... I talked about it on the topic12:49
robbiethe1stabout two weeks ago12:49
psycho_oreosI know I know... I just get that bit of chill when N950 is mentioned :p12:50
DocScrutinizeraegis will make you laugh XP12:50
psycho_oreosdon't worry, N9 will have it.. and without a hw keyboard to boot12:50
MohammadAGAegis, the only reason I doubt Harmattan will have a CSSU12:50
robbiethe1stUnless we can disable it, yeah12:50
ruskie <-- erm12:51
robbiethe1stIt's why I shake my head every time someone says the N950 is better than the N90012:51
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robbiethe1st(or N9, for that matter)12:51
DocScrutinizeroh ure you can disable aegis, but then things like mediaplayer etc won't work anymore. Probably no dialer as well12:51
robbiethe1stEffing hell12:52
psycho_oreosN950/N9 is better in some ways than N900 in terms of hardware.. but all three said devices are crippled in their own ways lol.. N900 has hardly much of a future, N950/N9 is plagued with aegis12:52
robbiethe1stTo be honest, after hacking my N900 into submission, I still don't see a faster device around12:53
chem|strobbiethe1st: appart from some hickups I second that12:53
psycho_oreoswhat, the 1GHz + 512MB RAM didn't make that much of a difference? :)12:54
robbiethe1stAnd well... I know the N950 developers have their work cut out - things like a simple LED torch seem like they'll require some major hacking.12:54
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psycho_oreosif it didn't make much difference it sounds like harmattan is bloated lol12:54
robbiethe1stWell, erm... thing is, on the N900, if you tweak it right you don't run into the limits12:54
robbiethe1stAnd I'm running mine at 500,950mhz, so the CPU speed isn't an issue either12:55
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chem|stpsycho_oreos: get trackerd apt-worker and hildon-* under control and your device is responsive, working smooth and does not crash more often than any other device I know12:55
DocScrutinizerthe thing is, N950 is smooth, but tell me, how wuld I evaluate true speed when nothing works on this aegis coffin?12:55
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robbiethe1stSetting the lower speed to 500 improved battery life slightly, and really improved responsiveness. And DocScrutinizer is right12:55
psycho_oreoschem|st, I've never really have my N900 crashing apart from the ugly hacks to optification that I've recently incorporated lol12:56
chem|stthought aegis is just one nail in the coffin^^12:56
DocScrutinizertime for ((i=1000000; i>0; i--)); do :; done12:56
chem|stpsycho_oreos: that is what I am talking about... ever since 1.312:56
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, lol I wonder if you can run coremark CPU benchmarks. I ran my N900 on it and submitted the score at one stage12:56
chem|st1.2 froze on me quiet often12:57
robbiethe1stAnd, I have to say.. I don't see the advantage of the new, shiny, Swipe UI. Assuming it works perfectly, it's still worse than the good old Hildon UI, because you can't close programs from within the program.12:57
psycho_oreoschem|st, I've only had laggy responses even with 1.2.. and 1.2 had battery management woes (i.e. chews battery like there's no tomorrow)12:57
psycho_oreosrobbiethe1st, lol ouch12:58
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DocScrutinizerrobbiethe1st: 100% ACK12:58
robbiethe1stAnd that's *not* a bug, if you look at the official documentation12:58
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psycho_oreosbut you still got to admit that having a hardware keyboard there is really handy.. if touchscreen keyboard UI is laggy/screwed you still have hardware keyboard.. come N9 and you won't have a choice12:59
DocScrutinizeralso the weird idea of browser bookmarks cluttering the already awkward app grid - eeeew12:59
robbiethe1stOh gees. I haven't tried that, but...12:59
robbiethe1stMainly because I can't see how to change the default browser's font size.12:59
MohammadAG<robbiethe1st> And, I have to say.. I don't see the advantage of the new, shiny, Swipe UI. Assuming it works perfectly, it's still worse than the good old Hildon UI, because you can't close programs from within the program.13:00
MohammadAGnext versions will be swipe down to close13:00
MohammadAGi.e by N9 release13:01
MohammadAGno, for sure afaik13:01
DocScrutinizerdoesn't make the concept better13:01
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MohammadAGthe concept is excellent13:01
MohammadAGand awesome, I don13:01
MohammadAG't  need a lock code so my friends don't unlock my phone13:01
DocScrutinizer8 of them13:01
MohammadAGthey just can't figure how13:01
MohammadAG8 is so last year13:02
MohammadAGrotate the 8 90 degrees and that'd be awesome13:02
MohammadAGthe concept of widgets can be done on Harmattan13:02
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MohammadAGthe task switcher design helps13:02
MohammadAGwhen you swipe out, an app can switch to a bigger view13:03
DocScrutinizerI frequently drop that aegis coffin like a hot potato uttering "MEH!" when it comes to task switching13:03
MohammadAGsure it's not a desktop, but it's nice13:03
MohammadAGoh and the events view has a whether icon next to the date in release SW :p13:03
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DocScrutinizerhonestly, WAY TO MUCH iPhome/andridiot-me-too13:05
DocScrutinizerthey'll always be the second best when trying to compete by copying BS13:05
DocScrutinizerswipe doesn't change that13:06
chem|stthe features of maemo being desktop like is what makes it still attractive13:06
robbiethe1stAlso, erm... where's the ' button?13:07
robbiethe1ston the N95013:07
cityLightsMohammadAG: got a paypal I can send you $$13:08
chem|steven my "not so" tech savvy father asked me if he could handle it as he likes the functionalities13:08
MohammadAGcityLights, I can't take $$ for the CSSU if that's the reason ;)13:08
cityLightsI see13:09
MohammadAGwhy? cause it's a big colalb by nicolai, acrean, freemangordon, thp, qwerty12, etc13:09
MohammadAGand taking money isn't right for that13:09
DocScrutinizerthe advantage of fremantle was the customizable desktop screens with shortcuts, the almost desktop alike concept, things like submenues on applauncher screen (albeit an option), the relatively "normal" browser, with its own bookmarks etc. They nuke all this for looking like all the other crap-phones13:09
cityLightsI wanted to help cssu somehow13:09
MohammadAGit's like your boss taking money and not giving you any for your work13:09
MohammadAGtheoretically, I don't consider my "position" in the CSSU higher than anyone's, a lot of the contribs have done more than I have13:10
robbiethe1stHm, so... testing: "time sh -c 'for i in $(seq 1 1000000); do:; done'"13:11
DocScrutinizerrobbiethe1st: won't probably fly, as seq 1 1000000 will bust shell's cmdline buffer, on expansion13:12
robbiethe1stN900/N950 | real: 13.22/13.69 | user: 12.72/12.35 | sys: 0.19/0.8713:12
robbiethe1stNah, it worked.13:12
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robbiethe1stI tried the other for-style loop, but it didn't work on the N950, so..13:14
DocScrutinizersure, it's bash syntax13:15
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DocScrutinizerand actually a "x=`seq 1 1000000`; echo $x" works - I'm amazed13:16
DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# time echo $x >/dev/null13:18
DocScrutinizerreal  0m17.087s13:18
DocScrutinizeruser  0m17.055s13:18
DocScrutinizersys   0m0.016s13:18
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DocScrutinizert900:~# time echo $x >/dev/null13:20
DocScrutinizer-sh: time: Argument list too long13:20
robbiethe1stput quotes around it13:21
cehtehbtw i removed my µSD card today and found out its a class2 only .. but sandisk, performs almost as good as the emmc13:22
DocScrutinizert900:~# bash13:22
DocScrutinizert900:~# x=`seq 1 1000000`13:22
DocScrutinizert900:~# time echo $x >/dev/null13:22
DocScrutinizerreal    0m35.496s13:22
cehtehjust for the note about how unimportant class ratings are13:22
DocScrutinizersuggests N950 ~2 times as fast as N900, sounds about right13:23
cehtehwell .. with 4 times as much ram, in real it will feel much faster right?13:24
DocScrutinizerif you do the dance on on-device xterm, like "time echo $x" then you also could check gfx accel13:25
psycho_oreosclass ratings are up to individual manufacturers to rate their cards, not controlled by some central entity.. i.e. you can get a class 10 which will be no faster than class 2 of two unrelated brands13:25
cehtehwell and class ratings are completely unrelated to the usage pattern you have on a smartphone13:26
DocScrutinizertestbed for SD card class ratings is a digicam storing photos continuously13:27
psycho_oreosunfortunately it should if you are critcal about it, but alas there's still no central entity that manages and makes sure nobody gets ripped off13:27
chem|stdelay between "ring-in" and actual action by ui13:27
chem|stloading time of websites13:27
chem|stbattery time on wifi with all accounts logged in13:28
DocScrutinizererr wut?13:28
JaffaMorning, all13:29
chem|stJaffa: moo13:29
DocScrutinizerhi Jaffa13:29
DocScrutinizerJaffa: would you've thought a "echo `seq 1 1000000`" works?13:30
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robbiethe1stOk, I did "time sh -c 'for i in $(seq 1 1000000); do echo $i>/dev/null; done'" - N900: 50.55s vs 42.19s13:31
psycho_oreoscehteh, also they say for meego dualboots on N900 it is recommended that you have class 6 or higher rated microSD. Maybe you can put that class 2 to the test and see if the lags annoy you ;)13:32
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cehtehwould be meegos fault then :P13:33
psycho_oreoson second thoughts though, there's only two classes above and including class 6, that is class 6 and class 10, lol13:33
cehtehis meego meanwhile useable? phone, gps, camera?13:33
cehtehon the n90013:33
psycho_oreosnot really, its a good way to also benchmark your microSD as well13:33
cehtehno thanks then13:33
robbiethe1stGPS works on the N900?13:33
psycho_oreosapparently phone functionality is usable on meego-N90013:34
nusse_how do i remove the microsd thingy ontop of the usb-connector? any special hints?13:34
cehtehrobbiethe1st: huh GPS works fine13:34
psycho_oreosGPS works but rather slow (even worse without assistance)13:34
robbiethe1stMaby it's just that I've rarely been far enough out fron a vehicle, or had data to use it...13:34
psycho_oreosnusse_, huh? you mean the port?13:34
cehtehi use gps a lot, works very well13:34
robbiethe1stI got it to work... once. When I was within range of our wifi point. Then it tracked me walk around our pasture fairly accurately13:35
cehtehnot with ovi maps :P13:35
psycho_oreosyou don't have to have a car just to use GPS :) its handy for various other things13:35
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robbiethe1strunning the same code, writing to the screen: N900: 4m 14.74s/48.37s So either they did some sort of fix to make it handle massive lines of code better, or somethings accelerated13:36
nusse_psycho_oreos: the pcb ontop of the micro usb port13:36
robbiethe1stIt's held in with glue13:36
robbiethe1stJust be very careful with a plastic wedge tool13:36
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psycho_oreosnusse_, ahh I wouldn't have a clue..13:36
nusse_robbiethe1st: does the sponge stay on the main pcb or on the sdcard-pcb?13:37
robbiethe1stI'd keep it on the SD card PCB13:37
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DocScrutinizerRM680-22-6_PR_RM680:~# time -p for ((i=1000000; i>0; i--)); do :; done13:38
DocScrutinizerreal 61.4913:38
DocScrutinizeruser 60.0813:38
DocScrutinizert900:~# time -p for ((i=1000000; i>0; i--)); do :; done13:38
DocScrutinizerreal 117.4113:38
DocScrutinizeruser 113.3413:38
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DocScrutinizerstill 2:113:39
robbiethe1stI don't have bash installed13:40
robbiethe1stBut for me it's closer to 1:1, because of the 950mhz vs 1ghz CPU and all...13:40
DocScrutinizer~bash robbiethe1st for overclocking13:41
* infobot beats robbiethe1st for overclocking with ksh13:41
DocScrutinizert900:~# time seq 1 100000; #on device:13:43
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nusse_fucking small13:44
DocScrutinizerreal 0m22:40s; user: 0m 1.53s; sys: 0m 1.37s13:44
nusse_how should i ever solder in this 1mm space13:44
robbiethe1stnusse_, with great care13:44
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DocScrutinizerrest is gfx for scrolling13:44
nusse_robbiethe1st: no, really? :)13:44
robbiethe1stSpeaking of which, I need to install my own new USB port13:44
nusse_one side of the connector is still attached13:44
robbiethe1stI just got 5 replacements, so...13:44
nusse_charging didnt work reliable, so its advisable to resolder all pins?13:45
DocScrutinizeron N50 :-D :13:45
DocScrutinizerreal: 0m 3.49; user: 0m 0.73; sys: 0m 057s13:46
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DocScrutinizeryeah, actually last two lines are 99999 and 10000013:47
nusse_should i remove the shield next to the usb port? will it give me more space13:47
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robbiethe1stTheoretically, yes, but you'd have to be very careful with it... and it protects the electronics undernieth, so I wouldn't risk it13:48
DocScrutinizeraah usb fix13:48
DocScrutinizerno, practically not, as you can not "remove" that shield13:49
DocScrutinizerit's a soldered can with a removable lid13:49
robbiethe1stNot like the other ones?13:49
DocScrutinizerremoving the lid doen't help anything13:49
robbiethe1stwell, yeah... but the lid would give you .02MM or w/e13:49
infobotFixate receptacle like this: - get the form there for details how to deal with contact pads came off, or >>NEVER use epoxy glue!<<13:50
DocScrutinizeryou won't get better advice13:51
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DocScrutinizer(unless you ask me specific questions, that is)13:51
nusse_mh, still wondering wether i need to resolder all pins13:52
DocScrutinizerodd are they're broken at receptacle body though - so inspect *carefully*13:52
nusse_what kind of soldering iron should be use? are there small tips to solder every pin by its own?13:53
DocScrutinizerresoldering a loose perfectly soldered pin won't help13:53
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DocScrutinizeryes, there are such soldering stations with matching tips13:53
DocScrutinizerstarting ~100 bucks and up13:54
DocScrutinizeryou may get away with a simple 30 bucks 30W soldering iron with a dirt cheap copper tip (if you can find any nowadays) that you'll need to file to shape to meet your needs13:55
robbiethe1stThere's some nice units on ebay; I bought myself a $100 solder rework station(with temp-controlled 60w iron and hot air) + a whole bunch of tips13:55
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jaskaid probably mis-solder and get angry and throw the iron out of the window :)13:56
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DocScrutinizerhonestly if you need to ask those questions, I strongly recommend you find an experienced repair dude that knows which end of the iron is the hot one, rather than ruining the device with practicing soldering on it13:57
* ruskie has a nice 60W Weller soldering iron with magnetically temp controlled exchangable tips... works a treat for most everything13:58
nusse_btw the shield thingy seems to be clipped not soldered13:59
nusse_how should i find out wether the pins of the connector are broken?13:59
DocScrutinizernusse_: please don't even think about doing it yourself. Your comment shows you're lacking the mandatory experience13:59
JaffaDocScrutinizer: On what system?13:59
DocScrutinizeron any system. I always thought cmdline expansion buffer had a certain limited size << several M14:00
nusse_DocScrutinizer: doesnt answer my question ;)14:00
* RST38h politely points out that 60W might be a bit of overkill for microelectronics14:00
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robbiethe1stRST38h, yes, but if it's temp-controlled, that doesn't matter14:01
DocScrutinizernusse_: I'm not one of the guys that answer questions of users to make them ruin their devices. I give advice to my best knowledge to give the user what he needs rather than what he asks for14:01
robbiethe1stIt just means that it heats up quickly, and will maintain the temp under the most adverse of conditions14:02
DocScrutinizerweller magnastat has the disadvantage of not easily adjust the temperature14:03
DocScrutinizeralso tips are exorbitantly expensive14:03
DocScrutinizernusse_: and I did when I suggested you should find someone with sufficient experience on such delicate soldering14:04
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chem|stnusse_: find a shop for it! just an advice... (asking if there are tips small enough shows no knowledge about soldering)14:11
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DocScrutinizernusse_: just to show you I know what I'm talking about:  I actually removed the lids of the shield cans14:11
DocScrutinizerand I did some rework in my life:
chem|stnusse_: and not knowing that there are stores with that many DMMs that they even sell them... (sry cannot hold it)14:12
infobotwell, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko14:13
chem|stDocScrutinizer: you don't have to...14:13
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nusse_its already disassembled in front of me14:16
nusse_bought it used, someone before me seems to disassembled it and used the wrong screws to put it back together14:17
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DocScrutinizeranyway, when it's already disassembled, you should find a repair shop that knows what to do and also know their soldering business, and you just show them the photos of the links infobot referred you to above. When they don't need to disassemble the device, you should get away with 10 or 20 bucks, depending on where you live14:40
infobotFixate receptacle like this: - get the form there for details how to deal with contact pads came off, or >>NEVER use epoxy glue!<<14:40
DocScrutinizeragain, for your convenience14:40
DocScrutinizerprint out the photos, grab the prints and the N900 bare PCBA (mainboard) and go "shopping"14:41
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DocScrutinizer might help as well14:42
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DocScrutinizeroh, and cover your camera lens with a patch of sticky tape prior to leaving home with the PCBA14:45
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ErwinJungeDocScrutinizer: That N900 exploded gallery is a lot less spectacular than the title would imply ;)14:57
DocScrutinizerhah, only from your POV14:57
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DocScrutinizerI might create a a gallery-N950-flattened that might more meet your taste, eventually14:59
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DocScrutinizerI'm afraid if I'd apply some few gram of real explosives to N950, there's probably not much left to take snapshots of15:00
ErwinJungeYou're that upset with the device?15:00
DocScrutinizerI don't like it15:01
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DocScrutinizerfor N900 I had to get a devel device as I couldn't stand it to mess with my daily phone. For N950... well let me put it this way: it's all the contrary15:02
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ErwinJungeAlso, what's the relation of the big-C rework pdf to the N900?15:02
ErwinJungeI'm going to let a friend fix the usb connector soon, would like to give him as much relevant information as possible. He's an electronics professional.15:03
DocScrutinizernothing at all, except I am the author of the paper and I'd hope this qualifies me to give some educated advice about N900 rework15:03
ErwinJungeAlright. I only have a minimal level of electronics knowledge, so not sure if it was relevant :)15:05
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DocScrutinizerif he's an electronics pro, I think he'll know how to tackle that, when you show him those three pictures (monster solder blobs, wiring rework if pads came off, and bare PCB) - he'll probably opt for hot air reflow if he got the equipment for that15:07
archlN900 as Phone mainly secondary as computer... so I want Gtalk Back!15:08
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DocScrutinizerwith the right equipment hot air is simple as eating cheesecake15:09
chem|starchl: ehrm N900 as phone "mainly" implies GSM not some third party bs15:09
DocScrutinizer(hot air) actually unless pads came off and you need to do real wiring15:10
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DocScrutinizerooops C&P error above15:11
DocScrutinizers/[2011-09-08 13:42:51] <DocScrutinizer> might help as well / /15:12
DocScrutinizernusse_: ^^^15:12
DocScrutinizerErwinJunge: ^^^ as well15:12
DocScrutinizernow I realize why you asked how that SOP is related15:13
ErwinJungeMine didn't come off yet, it's preventive.15:14
DocScrutinizerGOOD :-)15:14
DocScrutinizerso no hot air needed, the moster blobs can be done with regular iron just fine15:15
ErwinJungeWhile he's in there anyways, any other things that could use a bit of extra attention?15:15
ErwinJungeI only know about the usb thing since that's a very high profile problem15:15
DocScrutinizernothing else comes to mind15:16
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DocScrutinizermaybe clean and bend out a bit the contacts/springs/pads of AV-connector15:16
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DocScrutinizercleaning best is done with unvarnished carton, like a business card or similar15:17
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ErwinJungeOk, I'll pass it along. Thanks!15:18
DocScrutinizerdon't use solvents, they usually tend to make things worse rather than better15:18
DocScrutinizerfor cleaning contacts15:18
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DocScrutinizerwipe with dry rough paper is really best for gold plated15:19
ErwinJungeAll copied and pasted in a document that I'm going to print out and give to him, thanks15:20
DocScrutinizerand take special care with that friggin ribbon cable connector between screen and main half. It's way more delicate than it looks15:20
DocScrutinizerthe connector (aka plug) is a triple layer with vias, breaks on slightest bending15:21
ErwinJungeMore copypasting ensues :)15:22
ruskie <-- I mean I can see the benefits of bendy screens... but I still don't see the point of designing something like that then...15:25
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* SpeedEvil stabs designers in the face.15:27
DocScrutinizerlooks like a worn out cigar case15:27
DocScrutinizerlook there: not ideal but way better use of really flexible screens ->
SpeedEvilIn principle, for example, you could imagine a 8" long 1" thick rod, which when you pull it out, makes a 10" display, with the electronics at one edge15:28
DocScrutinizerhehe, me been a tad faster than SpeedEvil ;-D15:29
SpeedEvilI posted that years ago. That was just a reiteration. :)15:30
DocScrutinizerI think you already could build such a design, with eInk and static screen content that needs rollup and pull out cycle to change15:32
jaskaroll scroll to turn page15:32
DocScrutinizersure, like an erasable fax paper printout15:33
DocScrutinizerwrite to it while rollout, with a 1-dimensional write head15:33
jaskajust sounds "retro"15:34
DocScrutinizercheck some checkmark boxes using a special stylus, scan content incl checkmarks on rollup15:34
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DocScrutinizerof course scan handwriting as well15:35
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DocScrutinizertag some pages for "[x] print this page", then replace the eInk by a roll of thermopaper and actually create printouts with the same device (just using a thermo-printhead built in parallel to the e-Ink electrostatical print head)15:39
e0xmorning all15:39
DocScrutinizerjaska: yes it's kinda retro, but I think it has a special geeky charm, somewhat resembling handling of old parchment rolls :-)15:41
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DocScrutinizerand it's rather simple to build, and extremely easy and cheap to replace the "screen"15:42
DocScrutinizerof course you don't want to watch youtube videos on such a device ;-)15:44
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DocScrutinizermore kinda like the pocket kindle15:45
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: gameboy had printer to go with it15:56
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: and it was printing using small moving printing head15:56
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DocScrutinizercool but can't do what's needed for the electronic parchment roll15:57
jacekowskiwell, it can15:58
jacekowskiit's printing on rolls of thermal paper15:58
DocScrutinizerthat's fine for printouts, but not suited for e-Ink pull-it-out usage15:58
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RST38hDoc: You can probably use any thermoprinter with the paper that changes back after a while16:04
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DocScrutinizer[Notice] -christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, as previously promised today will be the day where the network goes up in flames... I mean, where we carry out some upgrades to the ircd. I'm about to kill off a number of servers and the affected user count is ~8K! Hopefully this won't take long but I suggest you brace for impact..16:08
* pronto flings bagels at DocScrutinizer 16:08
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DocScrutinizerhah, I'm back ;-D16:11
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DocScrutinizerinfobot: ping16:15
RST38hIn addition to firing CEO Carol Bartz, Yahoo's board has now put the company up for sale.16:18
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DocScrutinizerno wonder, afaik Nokia changed from own mail hosting to yahoo not too long ago, so what else would you expect for yahoo's future? ;-P16:19
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* DocScrutinizer checks chanlog for the actual impact16:20
derfRST38h: Shouldn't they have done that when they were being offered real money for it?16:20
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DocScrutinizerDocScrutinizer51: \o/16:21
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javispedrobtw, about my my.TI problems...16:50
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javispedrosome lady called to my phone and apologized =)16:50
javispedroso all is good again :)16:50
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MohammadAGyahoo's for sale? how much?16:51
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ErwinJungeMohammadAG: share value * number of shares * (something extra to convince people to agree)16:53
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ErwinJungeAccording to Yahoo Finance: $17.18B16:54
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ErwinJungeSo I'd say somewhere between $18B and $21B16:55
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ErwinJungeWhich is still a lot less than the 45 that MS offered a couple of years ago16:55
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ebzzry_How can I invoke osso-addressbook from the command line? (The 'Contacts' app no longer works, out of nowhere)17:21
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NIN101 heh, the CSSU in mainstream news.17:28
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Shapeshifterwell, uh, "mcenfiadvsetupofflinesync"? really?17:34
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smharnow that I have my N900 updated. how to enable more than 4 desktops?18:02
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ErwinJungeShapeshifter: "mcenfiadvsetupofflinesync" ?? What does that do?18:27
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ShapeshifterErwinJunge: that's what the option says in modest to enable imap offline storage18:28
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ShapeshifterCSSU people didn't seem to name it something less cryptic.18:28
ErwinJungeWow. That's awful.18:28
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ErwinJungeWhat does the mcenfi pard of it even mean?18:29
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smharI have followed the instruction in the wiki and enabled the repo and updated N900, but somehow, I feel that something is still missing18:33
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smharAbout tells me that CSSU version 20.2010.36-2maemo15 is installed but I can not set it to have more than 4 desktops18:36
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slonopotamusMohammadAG: ping18:39
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smharthis is th page I followed18:41
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slonopotamusstupid maemo scripts18:48
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slonopotamuscamera-ui no longer wants to save photos to MyDocs. you know why? because i've created /scratchbox dir.18:48
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DocScrutinizererr wut?18:54
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DocScrutinizerls -l please18:55
DocScrutinizerls -ld even18:55
slonopotamus/etc/osso-af-init/ doesn't export INTERNAL_MMC_MOUNTPOINT if it sees /scratchbox dir18:55
fralsim guessing it has a workaround to detect if its running inside scratchbox or not18:55
fralsand no sane person would create /scratchbox unless you are running scratchbox, i guess18:55
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slonopotamusand camera-ui relies on INTERNAL_MMC_MOUNTPOINT env var to find out where MyDocs is18:55
frals(and why youl would have that on the device... well :p)18:56
slonopotamusfrals: why the hell it cares about my dirs?18:56
Juozapasis it possible to buy new good quality n900 case?18:56
fralsslonopotamus: it cares about if its running in scratchbox likely18:56
slonopotamusfrals: creating /scratchbox dir is the easiest way to build stuff on device without messing with sed18:57
slonopotamus(because lots of stuff have /scratchbox/tools/bin path hardcoded)18:57
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DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: friggin funny18:57
slonopotamuscould someone please clone to community-ssu so that i file pull request there?18:58
slonopotamus(i don't know how to detect scratchbox but relying on /scratchbox dir is total crap)18:58
fralsdoesnt seem to be a problem for most users since this is the first ive ever heard of it being a problem and its what, 2years after release?18:59
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ErwinJungeslonopotamus: I never understood why people would want to build on device. Isn't that really really slow?18:59
DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: there's probably no beter way18:59
slonopotamusErwinJunge: because desktops do not fit in pocket19:00
DocScrutinizerand you can edit /etc/osso-af-init/ just easy enough, uh?19:00
ErwinJungeslonopotamus: That's why you want to use the device, but do you do development on the train a lot?19:00
slonopotamussure i can. i just don't want to mess with it again if/when it gets updated in cssu19:01
slonopotamusErwinJunge: that's basically the only place where i develop19:02
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DocScrutinizerwho would update that file in CSSU?19:03
ErwinJungeWouldn't a laptop be a lot easier to work with in that case? I'm all for the "doing things your way" approach that's inherent to OSS, but using only the device just seems cruel to yourself :)19:03
DocScrutinizerand if somebody did, do you think we'd care to keep this scratchbox nonsense intac?t19:03
DocScrutinizersed -i -e "s/scratch/smash/g" /etc/osso-af-init/af-defines.sh19:04
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: are you convincing me not to send a patch fixing that weird behavior?19:04
DocScrutinizerthis isn't weird behaviour19:05
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DocScrutinizerand it could get fixed only for strictly-on-device-only file19:05
slonopotamushaha. you know why they have that check? because "Do not create /tmp/.opi.tmp when running inside scratchbox"19:06
slonopotamusand they create that file when trying to source osso-product-info output19:06
DocScrutinizerthe one-liner above is all you need to fix it for your local system, and if CSSU would deploy a "fix" for that file, we would kill all those files that already got a custom mod, like yours might get with >>sed -i -e "s/scratch/smash/g" /etc/osso-af-init/ <<19:07
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DocScrutinizerit's a really niche issue, and easy to fix by devels as nifty as doing development on device. Risk of a fix is magnitudes higher than benefit19:09
DocScrutinizerfix for you, break for 238 other users. No way19:09
slonopotamusgrepping for "scratchbox" in /etc shows that half of scripts check /scratchbox presence and other half checks /targets/links/scratchbox.config19:10
DocScrutinizermeh, how about renaming that friggin /scratchbox dir in a launch script for your development environment?19:11
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DocScrutinizerall the scripts that offend you are checking for the /scratchbox folder during boot only19:12
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slonopotamusso, instead of fixing crap, let's pile some more on top19:12
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DocScrutinizerno, if I'd go fixing crap I'd teach you why this file looks the way it does19:13
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slonopotamusbecause someone wrote them that way.19:14
DocScrutinizerand no, we're not going to break CSSU for those that want to use it in scratchbox to develop and check on PC19:14
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DocScrutinizeryes, because someone wrote it that way, and that's also the reason why we won't change it for CSSU19:15
MohammadAGFirst impressions about the Samsung Galaxy SII19:15
MohammadAGwonderful smooth device19:15
MohammadAGtons of apps19:15
MohammadAGI'm already bored19:15
slonopotamusi somewhere suggested breaking cssu in scratchbox somewhere?19:15
* slonopotamus scrolls back through chatlog19:15
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: same reasoning can be applied to any cssu change.19:16
DocScrutinizer[2011-09-08 17:58:43] <slonopotamus> (i don't know how to detect scratchbox19:16
slonopotamusand who is "we" btw?19:16
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slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: yet19:16
DocScrutinizerand "we" is the more reasonable prudent half of CSSU dudes19:17
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DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: really, I gave you a ready made one-liner that fixes your problem in 3 seconds. Then I suggested a rather sane more global solution (renaming dir on SDK startup and shutdown) which you preferred to smash back into my face. No I'd say STFU19:19
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: meh. you don't care about on-device development but i do. and i have a bug an a will to fix it and send a patch. but you're rejecting it even before i wrote it. and you call that community?19:19
DocScrutinizerthere IS NO BUG19:20
slonopotamussure there is. on-device development breaks camera-ui19:20
DocScrutinizeron-device development the way you do it *is* the bug19:21
slonopotamusoh. you have better approach?19:21
DocScrutinizeryes, but you rejected it as crap19:21
DocScrutinizerI also could've suggested using chroot19:22
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DocScrutinizerwhich probably was the way cleaner approach19:22
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slonopotamussetting up chroot just because camera-ui breaks otherwise is strange19:25
DocScrutinizerhell you could even add a initscript that does "mv /scratchbox-hidden /scratchbox" on start, and  "mv /scratchbox /scratchbox-hidden" on stop19:25
DocScrutinizernot strange but clean.19:26
slonopotamuswhat's "dirty" in compiling in /home with /usr/bin/gcc?19:26
DocScrutinizerthe scratchbox folder is only existing on a development environment which per definition is PC and not device19:26
slonopotamusand /usr/bin/make19:26
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DocScrutinizerwell, maybe you want to add a patch to package gcc-n900 that cares to move /scratchbox into the development envs visibility on boot and away on shutdown. As you'd need to install a maemo-fied gcc package anyway - bare fremantle doesn't have these and thus is NO DEVELOPMENT ENV. So please don't complain about a supposed bug in fremantle (or CSSU) when the bug actually is in some of the things you did to convert fremantle into a development19:31
DocScrutinizerenvironment. --- using chroot would solve all this in a natural way19:31
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DocScrutinizerno, foobar-I'm-BORED-now19:32
slonopotamuswhy you care how i setup my phone if that doesn't break others' systems? for example, by replacing that check with [ -f /targets/links/scratchbox.config ] as many init scripts already do.19:35
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DocScrutinizerwhy and when did you decide to change to the trolling side?19:36
* RST38h yawns19:36
DocScrutinizerI don't give a flying F about what you do on your system, I just told you suggesting to fix this "bug" in CSSU is insane19:36
slonopotamusi'm just frustrated you're against my patch even before i wrote it.19:37
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IridosI see how it would be so much more frustrating if you spent hours/days writing one and then he'd be against it.19:44
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slonopotamusIridos: so, best strategy is to sit silently and use what Gods of CSSU gave you?19:47
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slonopotamusamazingly doc didn't say "development on device is unsupported, use SDK and carry desktop with you wherever you want to code"19:49
RST38hslonopotamus <-- is having a ball tonight19:51
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RST38hslonopotamus: what is the proposed patch?19:53
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slonopotamus_RST38h: if there is really no way to detect scratchbox except checking some file existence, unify checks so they all look for /targets/links/scratchbox.config19:54
slonopotamus_though it is obvious that scratchbox can exist without that file and that one can have that file without scratchbox.19:55
RST38hsounds sane, but only if everyone supports it19:55
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slonopotamus_that's just as bad as requiring that user is named "user"19:59
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Iridosindeed... wonder who ever thought of that20:03
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Iridosif I was bold, I would change the user and see what breaks20:03
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slonopotamus_Iridos: try grepping for "home/user" in /etc20:10
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Iridosall gui stuff20:22
Iridosor all osso stuff20:22
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DocScrutinizerif it was that simple the please explain those two lines: "  if [ -d /scratchbox ]; then" and "if [ ! -e /targets/links/scratchbox.config ]; then" BOTH show up in the file /etc/osso-af-init/ you identified as source of your problems. I don't think they mix different methods in one file just for fun, way more likely is you haven't wrapped your head around it and so are going to suggest and push a patch that will most likely20:30
DocScrutinizerbreak things for a lot of users, while not really trageting the root cause at all20:30
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DocScrutinizerrejecting this patch before I even looked at it been based on an abstract risk vs benefit estimation which made me think it's not worth it20:32
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DocScrutinizerI thought >>[2011-09-08 18:09:54] <DocScrutinizer> fix for you, break for 238 other users. No way<< made that clear enough20:33
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DocScrutinizersorry I didn't want to sound discouraging or mean or offensive. Sometimes I'm just too terse in explaining my thoughts I guess20:35
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DocScrutinizeranyway, given the fact we want to use a system as uniform as possible in scratchbox and on target device, there'll always be one flag (or two) that are used to signal "this is scratchbox, please act accordingly" and the scripts - as long as they are identical in scratchbox maemo system and on-device maemo system - will always have to check for that flag. It's no bug when this flag is missing per default on your N900 as it's meant to be that20:40
DocScrutinizerway, and it's also no bug when the scripts that need to take care actually will act differently when they detect that flag on a N900 and probably that different behaviour will cause things to break on N900 as that's why the different behaviour got implemented first instance.20:40
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DocScrutinizerand since CSSU first commandment is to keep as much compatibility with stock fremantle and only target things that really fix bugs that cause trouble and can't get fixed any other way (or bring much requested additional functionality that needs replacement of core components that will fail if replaced on a stock fremantle system), I can't see any patch regarding this syndrome going into CSSU and possibly causing lots of unwanted side20:46
DocScrutinizereffects and causing lots of testing effort for those who maintain CSSU20:46
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angelox|nokiaHi DocScrutinizer :)20:55
slonopotamus_i got your point. we need one more fork. cssu is "stable, frozen, only critical bugfixes" (btw, why the hell you touched camera at all? if i'm not mistaken, bug i hit is a regression compared to stock maemo camera ui). other one would be "evolution of maemo after nokia"20:56
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slonopotamus_with stuff like getting rid of "user" user, scratchboxisms, updating libs to modern times, etc20:59
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DocScrutinizerslonopotamus_: yes, I agree20:59
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RST38hslonopotamus; what you are talking about is called cordia21:00
DocScrutinizerbut then it's debatable if that's not a duplication of mer and meego-arm after all21:00
DocScrutinizerRST38h: yup21:00
slonopotamus_mer's dead21:00
slonopotamus_meego isn't hildon, is it?21:01
DocScrutinizernah, it resurrected recently I heard21:01
DocScrutinizerno I'm talking about meegoCE aka meego-arm here21:01
RST38hcheck out cordia21:01
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RST38hslonopotamus: you want this guy: *** smoku ( has joined channel #meego21:10
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RST38hMeanwhile: Edible Insects Produce Smaller Quantities of Greenhouse Gasses Than Cattle21:12
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infobot- Uptime for apt -21:26
infobotNow: 3h 12m 20s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux21:26
infobot1: 59d 8h 41m 19s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Sun Nov 14 18:39:57 201021:26
infobot2: 57d 3h 9m 23s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Fri Jun 26 20:39:27 200921:26
infobot3: 36d 20h 47m 14s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Tue Aug  4 17:38:59 200921:26
infobotI'm on 20 channels: #debian/1103, ##guleague/14, #debian-bots/6, #gsoc/2, #maemo/2, ##icf/2, #meego/2, #tomcat/2, #utos/1, #bzflag/1, #webos-internals/1, #bzflag-chat/1, #asterisk-dev/0, #sc2mapster/0, #asterisk-bugs/0, #sporewiki/0, #infobot/0, #wowuidev/0, #diablofans/021:26
infoboti've cached 1137 users, 1124 unique users, distributed over 20 channels.21:26
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nusse_soldering worked somehow, nothing i wanna do again21:28
derfThis channel has gotten smaller than I thought.21:28
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nusse_screws worn out, maybe time to look for a new phone21:28
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DocScrutinizerderf: some freenode "netsplit" might still have effects21:39
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IridosRST38h, but you need to eat more insects than cattle!21:44
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Iridoswell, actually per kg21:50
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angelox|laptopIn a charging process,it's common battery decreases his voltage?23:09
SpeedEvilIt usually increases, with the exception of NiCd and NiMH, where it either comes to a halt, or reverses for a bit, at full charge.23:12
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angelox|laptopthat's the 3 time i send my phone to the techinical shop and they doesn't fix the problem :(23:13
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angelox|laptopafter ~3 minutes,my battery goes from 3.865v to 3.900v,and now 3.888v,perharps it is charging ?23:14
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RST38hvoltage will depend on the load, a little bit23:14
angelox|laptopand the problem is in my phone,since they did change my battery 3 times23:14
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ShadowJKit will vary23:15
RST38hand the load will depend on what your cpu is doing23:15
ShadowJKwhat are you using to measure voltage?23:15
angelox|laptoplshal -m23:15
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ShadowJKlshal is rarely updated23:15
angelox|laptopor,5 minutes by 5 minutes lshal | grep battery23:15
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angelox|laptophmm,what should i use instead?23:16
angelox|laptopsome app?23:16
ShadowJKAll the apps use hal as source23:16
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angelox|laptopthen a multimeter23:17
ShadowJKBut if you're not afraid of x-terminal, you could use my script which accesses the hardware directly23:17
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angelox|laptopIt would be very nice23:17
ShadowJKDo you have rootsh installed?23:18
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: you don't know the GTA02-battery script?23:18
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: N900 is using same chip as GTA02 battery23:19
angelox|laptopShadowJK,no,they did flash my phone :( ; I can install it fastly23:19
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: No,i'm newbie at gta02 :)23:19
DocScrutinizerooh, I see23:19
ShadowJK - Download this. Become root (the 'root' command), cd /root ; tar -xf bq.tar (substitute bq.tar with the full path to bq.tar where you downloaded it)23:20
ShadowJKthen './ 5'23:20
ShadowJKWhen/if you get this far I'll explain what the stuff means23:21
angelox|laptopThanks,i'm going to try23:21
DocScrutinizerbut first please connect charger, then issue the command >> cat /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/charger << and tell what it prints23:21
angelox|laptopbut after 10~ minutes charging,the percentage (also from lshal) decreased23:22
DocScrutinizerlshal is telling BS23:22
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DocScrutinizeractually bme is doing this, and hal plays the parrot23:22
angelox|laptopcat /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/charger returns 123:22
angelox|laptopgood ? :)23:23
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DocScrutinizerso your fastcharger got detected23:23
DocScrutinizermeans your USB port has at very least no broken data pins23:23
* Sicelo listens carefully to know what output of bq2720 means 23:23
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DocScrutinizerand your charger is working as expected, regarding signalling23:24
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angelox|laptopso Nokia's charger also uses D+ D- pins?23:24
DocScrutinizeryep, it shorts them23:25
* angelox|laptop reboots his n900 because it doesn't want to connect wifi to download rootsh23:25
angelox|laptophmm,and other chargers wouldn't do that..23:25
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DocScrutinizerno other chargers frequently don't do that23:25
DocScrutinizerno, *23:25
DocScrutinizerso N900 frequently refuses to charge properly on second source chargers23:26
angelox|laptopsorry,really sorry. I got to go :( when i got back i'll try bq272023:27
DocScrutinizerNokia is *very* specs conform wrt that23:27
angelox|laptopreally sorry for stopping this conversation :(23:27
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DocScrutinizerjust ping SpeedEvil or ShadowJK or me when back23:27
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angelox|laptopok. And Thank you!23:28
angelox|laptopSee you again people!23:28
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DocScrutinizerSicelo: you probably want to read the bq27x00 datasheet23:29
ShadowJKIt's kinda big23:30
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ShadowJKI think all we want to know is whether "rate" is positive or not ;)23:30
DocScrutinizerin short: CSOC~=RSOC=capacity in percent, TimeToFull, TimeToEmpty, NAC=capacity in mAh23:31
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DocScrutinizerSI=current when "in suspend" (low current calculated separately)23:32
Siceloi have it :P23:32
DocScrutinizerSTTE suspend time to empty23:32
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DocScrutinizerMLI max load current MTTE same as above23:33
Sicelowhat is the exact meaning of this line: Cycle count  since Last full reset?23:35
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Siceloand how is such a reset performed/reached?23:36
DocScrutinizerthe number of completed charge+discharge cycles since battery got inserted23:36
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ShadowJKit resets if it has been without power for a few minutes23:37
DocScrutinizerit sums up fractional discharge+charge cycles23:37
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Siceloah, ok. that one has baffled me for a long time :)23:37
DocScrutinizertwo discharges to 50% and then recharge to 100% are one complete cycle23:38
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ShadowJKSo if you never removed battery for more than a few seconds, and only ever used one battery, and never had the n900 "out of battery" for more than a few days, this is the age of your battery23:38
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: bq will keep ram unless battery cuts out on lowvolt protection23:39
ShadowJKmy spareN900 did that23:39
DocScrutinizerso if bq resets due to "out of battery" then I'd consider that cell dead23:39
ShadowJKafter a few months23:40
ShadowJKand meego in a day ;P23:40
DocScrutinizera LiIon hardly survives a few days at Vlow_cutout23:40
DocScrutinizerwell bq will reset on cutout for some minutes, cell might survive that23:41
Sicelomine says 37 .. not sure if i ever took out battery for extended period of time, guess i must have. i've had it since July 423:41
DocScrutinizerwithout too much damage23:41
DocScrutinizersounds about right then23:42
DocScrutinizer37 cycles in 90 days23:42
DocScrutinizerquite ok if you keep it on charger a lot23:42
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DocScrutinizeror, rather, if your phone doesn't eat one complete charge in less than 24h, which should be the case on light use23:43
Siceloi used to, actually, (side effect of USB Networking) not anymore though23:43
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DocScrutinizerthen 37 sounds correct for a device/battery in service since july 423:44
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Siceloi have thought about a second battery though, from expansys .. just it sounds so cheap :/23:47
Atariiscuds are pretty good23:48
Atariialso just found my 770 \o/23:49
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Siceloscuds, won't that cost an arm and a leg to be delivered here in africa? :p23:50
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AtariiSicelo :p
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Sicelothanks :)23:55
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