IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-08-28

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smharI understand that it is possible now to use N900 in usb host, is there a way to connect say, a usb HD and still be able to charge N900 at the same time?00:48
SpeedEvilYou need a special cale though00:51
SpeedEviln900 will not power 99% of USB hard disks00:51
cehtehand not charge while powering :)00:51
cehtehits told to be working with some modified usb hubs00:52
cehtehinformation about that is on tmo00:52
cehtehand btw i wont even try to power a hdd ... the n900 was offically not designed to run in host mode and power devices00:53
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cehtehiirc it can deliver up to 250 mA or something like that, but if you blow a fuse on the mainboard you have a problem .. in case its not properly/fully electronically protected00:54
smharI mean the N900 charging not the HD. I would keep the N900 running for a long period while connected to a usb HD powered separately.00:57
cehtehyes as i saied, thats possible with a modified powered hub00:57
cehtehmaybe you can even modify the usb hdd electronics to supply power on the usb host and then connect it directly00:58
cehtehbut i dont rememmber the details and how you configure the n900 for that, read tmo00:58
michlhere is it:
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smharthank you a lot01:03
Gh0styhostmode is cool01:03
Gh0styfinally can offload my pictures from my camera to my phone as a backup :)01:04
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Gh0stynevertheless probably get a black fruit soon, so I'll just use it as an internet tablet in the end I guess ...01:06
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Gh0styeven wondering if it would be possible to remove the phone parts from the firmware :)01:06
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knoctehello, I'm having an issue with the media player, I've deleted all my songs via the console when connecting it to the computer (via mass storage mode), but when I disconnect from the computer, the mediaplayer still claims to have all those songs02:54
knocteanyone know how to tell the media-player to "refresh"?02:54
nid0youll need to wait for it to reindex02:55
knoctenid0: well, I've already waited like half hour :(02:55
psycho_oreosmaybe issue: tracker-process -r02:56
psycho_oreosyou'll probably need to wait even longer, as tracker-process restarts from nothing02:56
knoctepsycho_oreos: what do you mean, how can I kick the tracker-process?02:57
nid0he means runs tracker-process -r from xterm02:57
nid0(with media player closed)02:57
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: you'll probably need to wait even longer, as tracker-processes restarts from nothing02:57
knocteok, I'll try that02:57
psycho_oreosand photos closed, conversations closed, etc02:58
knoctetracker-process: not found02:59
knoctewhere is it?02:59
knocteah oops03:00
psycho_oreostab completion ftw03:00
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knocteyeah but there is no tab in this keyboard right?03:01
psycho_oreosthere's a tab button on osso-xterm (unless you hacked it)03:01
knocteah cool, didn't notice that03:02
knoctepsycho_oreos: when you said "you'll probably need to wait even longer, as tracker-processes restarts from nothing", you were assuming I had a lot of songs? because now I want to sync only 2, and after I used tracker-processes, now it warns me all the time that there are no songs03:07
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knocteok, google shows interesting stuff03:09
psycho_oreosknocte, no I didn't assume anything. what tracker-processes -r does is that it kills trackerd and removes all the relevant database pertaining music/videos/photos/etc. Then sometime a few minutes or so afterwards trackerd is respawned and goes crawling around maemo looking for stuff to add according to tracker.cfg03:09
knoctepsycho_oreos: ah cool thanks, and cannot I respawn tracker manually?03:10
psycho_oreosknocte, you probably could03:10
psycho_oreosbut even at that trackerd won't tell you much about what its doing unless you set it to verbose mode. I think the first few seconds of trackerd is set to idle for some reason03:10
knoctewhat a pain03:11
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psycho_oreospatience is a virtue...03:12
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knoctepsycho_oreos: what's the command to respawn?03:15
psycho_oreosknocte, I don't know, I haven't dived that far in03:15
knoctethey recommend me to reboot in here:
knocteI assume most people here have a N900?03:17
knoctehow does meego run nowadays in it?03:17
psycho_oreosstill WIP, and yes probably a fair few of us has N90003:18
psycho_oreosmeego has their own support channel -> #meego03:18
knoctedo people  that test meego have dual boot with maemo and meego at the same time?03:18
psycho_oreosits best to ask that question in #meego. Though that idea is best compared to having meego as the main OS03:19
ShadowJKthat's the only sensible way to do it (dualboot)03:19
knocteShadowJK: cool thanks03:20
knocteI'm wondering if the media-player in meego is much better than maemo's..03:20
ShadowJKWell I couldn't figure out how to make it play music03:20
ShadowJKand video is distorted last time I checked03:21
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DocScrutinizerhow could it be better, though it's not using the supposedly good blob hw support maemo got03:35
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knoctewell, maemo's doesn't have rating feature, which is surprising03:50
psycho_oreosand its not mandator03:51
psycho_oreosif you want a handheld device that can probably do ratings, there's iphone :p03:53
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DocScrutinizerwtf ratings? for videos? or instead of the rather sufficient name-able sore-able playlists for music?03:56
DocScrutinizerhell, it's not even rocket science to edit the playlists03:57
DocScrutinizeralso it's no science at all to get a queenbeecon button that calls a python 10-liner to increment the rating value of that entry in a plain text list that has the same name as song just played03:59
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DocScrutinizermafw tells you what's the song just played, via dbus call, the rest is unix toolbox 10104:00
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DocScrutinizerthen there's "most recently played" and "never played" and whatnot predefined playlists each of which could get "abused" to show the songs with highest rating04:02
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: lol?04:02
ShadowJKInstead of a "rating" button, how about automatically assigning score based on how far into the song you listen before you switch to the next one04:03
ShadowJKand then group songs into groups depending on "listened to all of this song today, and also these songs", so it starts learning what songs you like in different moods04:03
DocScrutinizerI hesitated to suggest this as I didn't feel like discussing the pros and cons of this approach04:03
ShadowJKThis rating thing just seems a bit strange to me, because one day a song could be a 1-star, and another day it could be a 5 :P04:04
knocteDocScrutinizer: sounds good, where can I get the codez04:04
DocScrutinizerhonestly I don't need all this, I think it's useless fancy04:04
DocScrutinizersorry, your last letter spoiled it04:05
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ShadowJK(doesn't exist)04:05
DocScrutinizerknocte: ^^^ "codes" I might have delivered04:05
DocScrutinizerknocte: plz lrn 2 wr8 < 133704:06
knocteDocScrutinizer: no, seriously, where's the repo? is it implemented in python?04:09
jpinxanyone found a way to boot the n900 direct into a terminal - maybe without phone functions ?04:11
DocScrutinizerknocte: sorry, which part of >>get a queenbeecon button that calls a python 10-liner<< made you think any of this already exists ready for you to click "install"?04:11
knocteDocScrutinizer: I meant if the mediaplayer is implements in python04:12
DocScrutinizerthe mediaplayer is closed source04:13
DocScrutinizerthe playlists it sstores are plaintext04:13
knocteI thought the whole maemo was open source?04:13
DocScrutinizeror you go for MohammadAG 's remake04:13
DocScrutinizerknocte: who told you that fairy tale?04:14
DocScrutinizerthe core system is (mostly) FOSS, the apps are not04:14
knocteok :(04:15
knoctehow about meego, apps are opensource?04:15
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DocScrutinizerneither dialer, nor calendar or mediaplayer or contacts or...04:15
DocScrutinizerfor now yes, until somebody decides to publish closed source stuff04:16
jpinxcalendar is a useless pos :)04:16
* ShadowJK finds it useful04:16
DocScrutinizerthe point however about ratings of music is that you have all you need to even interface closed stock mediaplayer to add that function, with sth a 1st semester CS student should build in 2h. There are most probably other mediaplayers available that already have rating funtion04:18
DocScrutinizeror you add it to mohamediaplayer and use this stock media player clone instead of the original one04:19
knocteDocScrutinizer: media players for maemo? where to find them?04:19
DocScrutinizerin extras repo?04:19
knocteok thanks04:20
DocScrutinizerhell, maybe even in extras-devel, OMFG04:20
DocScrutinizerI think I've seen half a dozen at least04:20
DocScrutinizercanola, mohammad's04:21
DocScrutinizerthe russian guy's04:21
cehtehmplayer and a shell script :P04:21
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utanapischtiDocScrutinizer: ?04:38
utanapischtiplease add comments to urls posted04:39
utanapischtiwe shall know you?04:39
DocScrutinizerthe comments are *before* the URLs04:39
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DocScrutinizerutanapischti: we shall know YOU?04:39
* jpinx is glad he is not on irc on the n900 04:39
utanapischtior shall we click evewry link you post?04:39
utanapischti03:39:48  DocScrutinizer | utanapischti: we shall know YOU?b  << i dont post links here04:40
DocScrutinizeryou're free to click whatever you like04:40
DocScrutinizerno you drop in to a slow convo unsolicited, giving weird advice04:41
utanapischtiwe are not all born with englisg tounge04:41
jpinxanyone found a way to boot the n900 direct into a terminal - maybe without phone functions ?04:42
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer04:42
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utanapischtime not kicked?04:43
utanapischtiwhat have i done wrong?04:43
infobot[docscrutinizer] jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko04:44
nox-he's a regular, his links are usually okay :)04:44
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utanapischtichats on freenode always feel kinda strange04:47
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utanapischtiomg! he didnt kick me!04:49
utanapischtiwhat have i done wrong?04:49
DocScrutinizerutanapischti: but I will if you continue to play the asshead04:49
utanapischtii'd be proud to be...04:49
DocScrutinizeryou gave strange advice to add comments to URLs while the URLs themselves were comments to the previous convo04:50
utanapischtian typical irc problem?04:50
DocScrutinizerso you suggested to give comments to comments, and you asked "should we know you?" whichj is the first word of _you_ I ever heard in this chan04:51
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utanapischtithen you have no good logs04:51
DocScrutinizerI need no logs04:51
utanapischtithat was not my first line in here04:51
DocScrutinizeranyway you're boring me, sorry04:52
utanapischti(silent now...)04:53
DocScrutinizerwell, then I suggest you keep me on your ignore list. This would help me as well as then I don't have to cope with your silly comments04:53
utanapischtisilly comments? ok... you're lucky... i decided " 1:1 " before...04:54
utanapischtijust let us go in different directions now04:55
utanapischtiwithout weighting weighting whos wrong or right... ok?04:55
utanapischtigood night!04:56
DocScrutinizerI'll go nowhere, you're free to go whereever you want, but please do it _now_04:56
utanapischti03:56:14    utanapischti | good night!04:56
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utanapischtilook at the timestamp04:56
utanapischtii'll be there tomorrow...04:57
DocScrutinizerlook at this, for "not your first line here"04:57
DocScrutinizeryou're free to enter "DocScrutinizer" into the searchfield to answer your own question of "should we know you?"04:58
* utanapischti is here as utanapischti and sasquatch04:58
utanapischtisometimes weechat connects me with my 2nd nick04:58
utanapischtiwhats your problem?05:00
jpinx03:59 [freenode] -!- There is no such nick sasquatch05:00
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sasquatch04:01:46  -- | NickServ (NickServ@services.): Information on sasquatch (account _yeti_):05:02
sasquatch04:01:47  -- | NickServ (NickServ@services.): Registered : Jun 11 09:13:59 2009 (2 years, 11 weeks, 005:02
sasquatch             | days, 16:47:47 ago)05:02
sasquatchcan we go to sleep (4:04 am here...) now and meed again more friendly tomorrow?05:03
sasquatch_o/  ___ ( pro! )05:04
DocScrutinizer -> 79 matches in 1764 log files with 4301570 lines || -> 57 matches in 1764 log files with 4301594 lines05:05
DocScrutinizerI can clearly see why _you_ don't know me05:06
sasquatchyou got a problem when someone doesnt know you?05:06
DocScrutinizeryes, when the same fool is asking "shall we know you" and thinks he needs to teach me about sth he's in fact wrong about05:07
* sasquatch should have left when reading "same fool"...05:09
sasquatchbut i'm curious05:09
Sc0rpiusis the Nokia N9 being sold in all major stores or not yet?05:10
Sc0rpiuswhen will be out if it isn't?05:10
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Sc0rpiusI'm a little behind in news05:10
DocScrutinizerSc0rpius: latest news in rumour are it's in fact not sold in Germany, UK and a few other countries05:11
* sasquatch just is disturbed and does not know how to have deserved those last 15 minutes#05:12
Sc0rpiusso it's not been officially released yet05:12
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Sc0rpiusso we all still have our N900s05:14
sasquatchseems i dont know what "04:09:47 DocScrutinizer | jump!" means05:14
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DocScrutinizerSc0rpius: indeed, most of us. Some lost it MIA at a nokia care center05:15
DocScrutinizerSc0rpius: some of the best of us got lured on the dark side with a thing called N95005:17
Sc0rpiusyou don't like it?05:17
DocScrutinizerdefinitely not05:18
Sc0rpiuswhat you don't like about it?05:18
Sc0rpiusit doesn't have the AMOLED screen the N9 has05:18
Sc0rpius(or supposed to have)05:19
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DocScrutinizerthe fact that N9 will have no hw kbd, no proper touchscreen (just this useless capacitive ts), and most of all I hate the fact that harmattan is more closed than any maemo OS before in a certain way05:19
Sc0rpiuswell actually I was asking you if you like the N950 you got05:20
DocScrutinizernot really as it has most of the disadvantages I enumerated above05:20
Sc0rpiusthe N9 is my last hope of a real OS in a phone :(05:21
Sc0rpiusall I ask is have 10 SSH at the same time without disconnecting when you do other things with the phone (you can't do that on Android)05:21
DocScrutinizerI *maybe* could live with N950 when it had *)no aegis *)support for landscape in all apps05:21
Sc0rpiusI wonder if WP7 is fully multitask05:22
Sc0rpiusjust wondering, I don't think I'll ever move to that05:22
DocScrutinizer*)proper hw kbd support05:22
Sc0rpiusthe support for landscape could come, it's a very new OS05:23
* luke-jr hopes someone picks up the handheld market sooner rather than later05:24
luke-jrthere was what? 4 years between Sharp and Nokia05:24
* DocScrutinizer feels alike05:24
sasquatchso what? the war will be android vs microsoft...05:25
Sc0rpiusand iOS?05:25
sasquatchios will fade till iphone505:25
sasquatchthen shortly explode...05:25
sasquatchand fade agein05:25
Sc0rpiuslet's hope so.05:26
sasquatchaple is good to present new directions... not to maintain them05:26
sasquatchapple always faded in stocks when competitors brougt the same stuff...05:27
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sasquatchi kinda liked the apple 1 to III05:28
sasquatchand lisa05:28
sasquatchand the macintoshs up to late 680x0ers05:28
sasquatchbut then apple took a turn i didnt like05:29
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sasquatchcompare apple-II to the 1st PCs...05:31
sasquatchslots fpr expansion cards?05:31
sasquatchnot an ibm invention...05:31
sasquatchapple was a good breed someday...05:32
sasquatchothers copied their ideas05:32
* sasquatch was on trs-80 in apple 1-2-3 days...05:33
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sasquatcha well defined expansion bus (like in apple-II) would have been fine for trs-8005:34
sasquatchthose were the days where apple was sympathic(!?)05:35
sasquatchand that lasted to the end of mac-68k-days...05:36
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | | Source: | Chanlog: | PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED"05:40
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javispedroplus it's time to remove nitdroid from the topic I think05:41
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: HI!05:41
javispedrohi :)05:41
DocScrutinizeryou just returned from the funeral party?05:42
* javispedro is doing RL work :(05:42
javispedroeither way yes, I think it's time to remove it05:42
DocScrutinizernot on nitdidiot I hope05:42
javispedroobviously not05:43
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javispedroif you get more stupid queries you can readdit, but so far, I think all it's doing is sending hits to nitdridiot.05:43
DocScrutinizeroh yes, indeed05:43
DocScrutinizerthough you could as well claim it made the stupid queries vanish almost completely :-D05:44
DocScrutinizerwe'll see05:44
infobotfrom memory, maemo-multiboot is deprecated, and a horrible hack05:45
DocScrutinizer~maemo-multiboot is also PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED05:46
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay05:46
javispedrowe'll see indeed.05:47
javispedrooh god05:49
javispedrojust watch the problems #webos is seemingly having now that android users have all but overrun it.05:50
* javispedro knocks on wood05:50
DocScrutinizerI'm not on #webos :-)05:52
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: what's your RL work?05:53
javispedroDocScrutinizer: to sum it up: "<rwhitby> first time we've had to ban anyone in two years"05:53
* DocScrutinizer giggles05:53
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GAN900Poor #webos07:35
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Termanagood morning09:02
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MohammadAGcan someone tell sivang to pm me his number09:12
Choomsend them a memo09:13
MohammadAGyeah, msg doesn't work on irc chatter09:14
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psycho_oreosmemo should :) and memo is not the same as messag09:16
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JaffaMorning, all11:59
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errordeveloperI have one n800 here .. would it be feasible to install the latest release on it or I rather should stick to the earlier one ?12:29
errordeveloperI mean .. is the latest maemo more suited for n9xx?12:30
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eichi_N900hello. Is there no autojoin option on startup op IrGGu irc client?12:58
errordeveloperok, I can see that this had been discussed on the forums of course13:07
errordeveloperso the n8xx devices are bound to latest 4.x branch :)13:08
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gomiamerrordeveloper: you could say that :)13:13
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DeathKnightany one here who works with n900 hardware? (sorry if offtopic)13:19
DibblahNot off-topic.13:21
DibblahAsking a question generally gets a response, though, rather than asking to ask which just annoys ;)13:21
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DeathKnightDibblah, thanks. :)13:22
DeathKnightso, we can talk about n900 related stuffs in this channel?13:24
DibblahYou're asking to ask again...13:24
DeathKnightOk here goes my problem...  seems like I reveersed te polarity of usb wile trying to make a charger.. and it has stopped my n900 from mking any contacts from usb (charging as well as Data transfer).13:27
DeathKnightSomeone suggested me to connect the two terminals of fuse.. I did that and still it doesnt work. So wanting to know what might have been damaged... and serarching for solution.13:28
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psycho_oreoserrordeveloper, N800 and N900 greatly differs in hardware, if you can successfully flash your N800 with N900 firmware, the end result is a bricked N80013:33
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errordeveloperpsycho_oreos: sure ... I see now13:42
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errordeveloperseems like there zero package updates fror Diablo ;(13:43
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errordeveloperI nee to get newer version of flash player ... youtube doesn't work :(((13:43
psycho_oreosits an ancient device, learn to deal with it13:43
errordeveloperyeah ... sure, though I though there should security patches etc ...13:44
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psycho_oreosnokia pretty much abandoned maemo, do you think any of us maemo handheld owners would be getting any more security updates let alone updates? :)13:45
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Gadgetoidpsycho_oreos: Yeah… but only if we installed Android *badum tssshh*13:45
errordeveloperoh well, this obviously not a general linux distro13:45
GadgetoidI pull my N810 out every now and then, and stare wistfully at the empty updates list13:46
errordeveloperso what's the score with getting android on it ?13:46
GadgetoidWhat, the N900? or are you talking about the N810 ( I just dropped in! )13:47
psycho_oreosGadgetoid, lol I don't know how well nitdroid performs on anything less than N900 but you can imagine people are generally annoyed at the stupid nitdroid users on N900 :p13:47
errordevelopergomiam: n800 in fact ;)13:47
errordeveloperwhat's so bad about this device ?13:47
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psycho_oreoserrordeveloper, it is a linux distro bubt a very specific one13:47
errordeveloperold? .. well, may be GL ES is not there ..13:47
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gomiamerrordeveloper: two n800s (one US and one EU) and an n81013:48
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gomiamerrordeveloper: there is nothing wrong about it... but its manufacturer, Nokia13:48
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errordevelopergomiam: well, my father uses this n800 quite happy13:48
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errordeveloperbut there a couple of issues right now13:49
gomiamerrordeveloper: I use my main n800 almost continuously13:49
errordevelopera) flash doesn't work for you tube13:49
errordeveloperb) he gets out of ram pop-ups13:49
GadgetoidHmm, it's been an age since I tried Android out… bloody chore to install13:49
gomiamerrordeveloper: it doesn't? I think I can see youtube videos on the browser... even if I need to get them to load completely13:49
Gadgetoidgomiam: what for?13:49
errordeveloperI see, well .. I got like an hour or two to fix it up somehow, so android is not an option in this case then :))13:50
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gomiamGadgetoid: mmm... RSS, browsing, mail, IRC, MSN, photos (in a pinch), skype, shell scripting, ssh13:50
gomiamlots of things actually13:50
gomiamI even bought an Ubiquio foldable Bluetooth keyboard for it.13:51
gomiamI'm having a few problems with the media player indexing my music right now, but Internet radio works very well13:51
gomiamoh, and Gnumeric for spreadsheets and Abiword for word processing13:52
gomiamof course having the Bt keyboard is very useful with Abiword13:53
errordeveloperah .. I think I know what's the score with out of ram pop-ups13:53
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errordeveloperapparently my dad took the internal sd card out13:53
gomiamI even have the text-to-speech to mess around with my friends :D13:53
gomiamerrordeveloper: so no swap13:53
gomiamyes, that could explain that.13:53
errordevelopersure, I see now :))13:53
GadgetoidYou're getting a helluva lot of use out of that!13:53
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gomiamGadgetoid: of course! It's a very versatile product even if it gets almost no support any more13:54
gomiamlet me see if I'm missing some usual application I use beside the standard ones.13:55
gomiamoh, yes, VNC connections, WifiInfo to check wifi status, and aircrack to "test" network security ;)13:55
GadgetoidTrue, some brilliant software… although I now use my N810 for nothing more than FBReader13:55
gomiamGadgetoid: I, myself, like using GPE calendar/todo a lot13:56
gomiamone of this days I'll finally get started on using HomeBank.13:57
GadgetoidMaemo was so awesome that Apple stole "Not Charging" from it for the iPad, badum tsssh!13:57
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gomiamGadgetoid: XD13:58
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gomiamI also use the tuner and comic reader ocasionally13:59
GadgetoidI had to go and grab my N810 now, haha!13:59
gomiamGadgetoid: nice :)13:59
gomiamI may put my dpkg list up somewhere if you want to check it out13:59
gomiamyou might find something interesting13:59
errordeveloperhow much ram does n800 has ?14:00
GadgetoidI think my battery is stuffed, doesn't seem to last long even with some very power conservative settings14:00
gomiamerrordeveloper: 128RAM, 256 Flash IIRC14:00
errordeveloperI'm trying to figure out what card to put for swap14:00
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gomiamerrordeveloper: you can assign up to 128 MB of the inner SD card for swap. I don't recommend you use the external one because sooner or later you will want to substitute it while the system is on14:01
gomiamI seem to remember you could bring swap up to 256 with some tricks, but you will need to Google that.14:01
gomiamI have 8GB cards on my N8x0s14:02
gomiamtwo in each N800 and one in the N810 as it doesn't have an internal slot :)14:02
GadgetoidYeah… how did Nokia manage to lose an SD card slot!14:03
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GadgetoidThe N900 isn't bad, as the internal memory is bigger than any SD card I'd ever bother buying for it14:03
GadgetoidBut the N810… grr14:03
gomiamGadgetoid: they decided "nobody should ever need more than 2GB of internal SD" :)14:04
psycho_oreosthe coolest thing about N900 is that it has phone functionality ;)14:04
GadgetoidMine doesn't14:04
gomiampsycho_oreos: true, true. Unfortunately it still is dead-ended by Nokia not open sourcing it all.14:05
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psycho_oreosgomiam, goes back to the age old reference: that's nokia for you :)14:05
cityLightswas the subject of webos discussed here?14:05
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gomiampsycho_oreos: I know, I know. It is still a shame.14:05
gomiamcityLights: possibly, though not while I was here.14:06
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cityLightswas there any thing valuable there?14:06
gomiamcityLights: it is quite unrelated to Nxx0 and the like, though.14:06
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GadgetoidTime to try the N810 with an iControlPad14:07
gomiamcityLights: no idea. I considered getting one when they dropped the price but, alas, no such luck in Spain.14:07
cityLightswell, it does cast a shade over maemo - now does it?14:07
cityLightscan it run maemo?14:07
gomiamGadgetoid: oh, you just reminded me of another funny app for N8x0, BlueMaemo, which lets your N8x0 act as a Bt keyboard, mouse and some other things.14:07
psycho_oreoscityLights, some webos owners decided to install android on their webos devices and had issues with it, they were complete idiots and got themselves banned. Apparently one of the op from #webos claimed it was the first ban ever in 2 years or something like that14:08
gomiamcityLights: I don't think so. AFAIK Touchpad is ARM and Maemo is OMAP...14:08
psycho_oreosgomiam, indeed, but life goes on with crippling features that would've benefitted if it were done right.. it gets worse as N950 and N9 is crippled in their own ways14:08
Gadgetoidgomiam: I remember that one ;)14:08
gomiampsycho_oreos: true, true. And we consumers are left holding the ball :)14:09
GadgetoidWhatever happened to Mer?14:09
gomiamGadgetoid: it was dropped in favour of bringing Meego to N8x014:09
gomiambut it didn't get too far either.14:09
GadgetoidSame old same old :(14:10
cityLightswell, looks like its possible to run meego on the touch[ad14:10
gomiamcityLights: I should hope so... as long as you have the needed hardware drivers14:11
psycho_oreosgomiam, I guess it was good thing whilst it sort of lasted.. the whole idea of keeping bonsai pets (i.e. in reference to hardwares that could have been better on internet tablets by nokia and yet each one they made seems to have some sort of deformity of some sort)14:11
gomiampsycho_oreos: well, I mean to keep my N800 working for quite a while. For the time being I haven't found anything that really called out to me to "upgrade"14:12
GadgetoidHeehee, works nicely with the iControlPad; it's like a liiittle tiny SNES14:12
GadgetoidIt's like having an N900 without horribly crippled bluetooth14:12
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gomiamGadgetoid: was Bt messed up in N900?14:13
psycho_oreosgomiam, heh14:13
Gadgetoidgomiam: absolute effing nightmare!14:13
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GadgetoidI think it's a trend with smartphones, to try and create the most screwed up shadow of bluetooth they can muster14:13
gomiamGadgetoid: I can't really deny that :D14:13
psycho_oreosalas N900 isn't a smartphone let alone a phone :p14:14
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gomiamback to the upgrade... Nokia is out for the time being (I want Linux, not some sewn down Windows), Android seems to be getting more closed with each new release, and I don't want Apple...14:15
gomiamso it is wait and see for me.14:15
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psycho_oreosopenmoko test projects seems promising but they are going at the rate of turtles in terms of mass hardware prototyping and selling their handheld devices14:16
GadgetoidAmazing what Google have done to Android.. created an OS so open that carries can ass-rape it full of crapware and break the bluetooth14:16
gomiamGadgetoid: I don't mind they fucking up Bt, that's what Cyanogen mod is for ;)14:16
gomiamisn't it?14:16
Gadgetoidgomiam: in theory, yes, in practise… gah… I can't be bothered!14:17
GadgetoidI've got a Motorola DEFY at the moment, the bluetooth seems ....okay14:17
gomiamGadgetoid: I would say you don't have enough computer-fu, but I may be mistaken. Then again I'm the one my friends come to whenever they want something weird done to their computers/phones/whatever :D14:18
Gadgetoidgomiam: Plenty of computer fu, too lazy to use it14:18
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gomiamGadgetoid: lazy? Not enough. I'm so lazy I spend time in setting up things so I don't have to work more than needed on them :P14:19
gomiamanyway, time to go get the newspaper, take the trash out... be back in a bit :)14:19
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mase76hi! when using hostmode with an ext3 formatted hdd, enumerating throws errors. is this only possible with fat formatted drives?15:30
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psycho_oreosI think its an issue with osso-filemanager or whatever you are using. If you mount it manually it'll work15:31
mase76device not accepting address 38, error -7115:31
mase76want to use filebox.15:31
x29a_i get that when using bad cables or low power on the drive15:31
x29a_(not on a maemo host, regular laptop)15:31
mase76it is an 3,5" hdd with separate power supply.15:32
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psycho_oreoshave you tried other USB -> uUSB adapter/cable?15:32
mase76mice work with my cable.15:32
psycho_oreosor at least tried other devices attached to the same cable?15:32
psycho_oreoshow old is the 3.5" hdd with separate power supply?15:33
mase76about half a year.15:33
psycho_oreosI'm guessing you might also have faced similar issues as I have.. I think external hard drives tend to leech some power off the host, sure enough they have their own power supply to feed off but it seems like they're willing to detect and leech off host's USB power15:35
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psycho_oreosI'm also guessing if and when you unplug the external HDD from the computer but leaving the external power supply intact, you hear the external hard drive click for maybe a second or so?15:37
mase76a normal usb stick works, too.15:37
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psycho_oreosyeah that's expected as USB stick draws fairly minimal power compared to conventional hard disks15:38
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mase76do i have to wait between the steps in hostmode-gui?15:39
psycho_oreosI don't think there would be that much of difference if you waited in between the steps. I usually give mine a second or two before each steps but checking the logs are quite handy15:40
mase76no chance with this hdd. i guess, you're right with the power issue.15:41
mase76but an ext3 fs should be ok?15:41
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psycho_oreosmase76, yes it should15:46
mase76thx for your help!15:46
psycho_oreosthere might be a way with the power issue but I'm only guessing of theoretical workarounds which may/may not work15:47
mase76which are?15:48
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gomiammase76: you can try and connect a powered USB hub in between. That way no power should be drawn that might make the host-mode cause problems.15:54
mase76if i had such a device.15:54
gomiamof course, that0s a requirement15:54
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psycho_oreosthat or maybe a charger that would feed USB output for use with the external hdd. In my case I'm thinking of using something like ipod's wall charger16:02
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psycho_oreosthat and a fancy cable for the 3.5" hdd to piggyback on. Think of that Y cable for 2.5" hdd except for the connector that goes into 2.5" hdd (which is mini USB) it is a proper USB head for the 3.5"16:04
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gomiamOTOH I think USB hubs with power input aren't too uncommon... and neither are 5V 1A power sources.16:13
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psycho_oreosI guess it highly depends on the end user's budget :)16:25
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Sicelotrue psycho_oreos17:15
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Triscar0my n900 display is broken, it mixes colours and somthimes all black, just like if the cable was not 100% connected but it happens when the phone is not moving and it nont changes if i shake the phone or anything, is this a software problem or ?17:17
Triscar0the nokia boot screen show nice and then it starts to mix colours and line moving fast on the screen¨17:17
Triscar0like now my n900 works nice!17:18
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Sicelostrange that i have to wait a while for usb devices to be connected on mine.17:19
SiceloTriscar0: seems like a known issue17:19
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Triscar0oh, someway to fix it ?17:19
Siceloof course, u could have hardware  that's failing17:19
ShadowJKIf it happens regulary I'd suspect hardware failure17:20
Siceloum, none that i know... i think DocScrutinizer has a video of one such occurence17:20
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Triscar0url ?17:21
Sicelocheck out his ovi page17:21
Sicelojoergn900 iirc17:21
lcukTriscar0, does the effect occur and change as you slide the keyboard in and out17:21
Triscar0no, i cant find any spess way to get it to start mixing colour, it happens random17:22
Triscar0now my phone work normal, and i shake it, push up screen and use it and nothing happens, but when its laying on the table it may start mixing colours17:23
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Triscar0lol, now it was on the table not moving, and the screen started his own disco!17:24
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Triscar0its my 2nd n900, and i like it because of linux operating system and because of the keyboard, but now i will try a new phone. Is there any simulare phone i shuld buy ?17:26
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DocScrutinizer51also somewhere on youtube17:28
psycho_oreosit would also technically help what you were doing last before your screen broke17:29
DocScrutinizer51Triscar0: supposedly DSP freaking ot, often a permanent damage rsulting feom OC17:29
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Triscar0i woke up and was going to check my facebook and then it started:D17:30
Triscar0thnx DocScrutinizer5117:30
DocScrutinizer51Triscar0: sorry I can't provide better links (like youtube) now, as I'm on the road and online via N90017:30
psycho_oreoslol so we have another oc'ers case, I wonder who's going to kill the remaining N900 stock. Those oc'ers or those with genuine N900 defects.17:30
DocScrutinizer51Triscar0: supposedly DSP freaking out, often a permanent damage resulting feom OC17:31
DocScrutinizer51from*  grrr17:31
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Triscar0its not like in the movie, its just crazy colours17:32
Triscar0alot of lines with colours, and moving from top to bottom17:33
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Triscar0just like a bad cable:D17:33
Sicelomaybe that's your issue then17:34
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Triscar0yeah maby, but strange when it happens when the phone is 100% still, and dont happen anyting when i shake, open display, hit the phone:D17:34
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Triscar0is the N8 any good ?17:41
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psycho_oreosN9 is about to come out fairly soon and here you're asking about N8, lmao17:48
ShadowJKI don't think either are comparable to N90017:50
psycho_oreosno neither of them are, but none of any other devices on the market currently is comparable to N900 either.17:50
psycho_oreosshould I add, devices that are available for sale to the public17:51
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psycho_oreosand N9 hopefully should feature a much full fledged linux beneath its ugly aegis mask. At least that in a very distant sense is comparable to that of N900 in terms of core software features, unlike N8 which has a completely different core.17:52
GNUtoo|laptopabout aegis, no way to disable it?17:54
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psycho_oreossome rumours say that a custom kernel might.. but that imposes two other set of notes: 1) how the hell are you going to be able to get the kernel to actually install let alone boot your custom kernel? 2) By disabling aegis you remove certain functionalities of N9/N95017:55
DocScrutinizerTriscar0: the DSP when going mad can cause all sorts of weird GFX artifacts. Your results may differ largely form what is in that video. The point however is that usually there's still some weird kind of relation between what's happening on screen to what user interaction caused that. If you can ssh in via WLAN etc, you may try to retart some DSP related stuff (don't ask me what that might be in particular) Also you may want to watch dmesg (17:56
DocScrutinizeror have ksyslog pkg installed and look into tail of /var/log/syslog) to find error messages related somehow to DSP/video/graphics17:56
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DocScrutinizeralso a god test is connecting the device to a TV via AV-cable, and see if the image there looks identical17:57
ShadowJKlooks more like what you'd see when a 3D GPU goes mad ;p17:58
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DocScrutinizeryeah that's what I meant17:58
DocScrutinizerTriscar0: did you overclock the device?17:59
DocScrutinizerany time?17:59
DocScrutinizerTriscar0: I also experienced a cable breakage on N900, and that was kinda different, as it didn't recover by a carefully executed reboot18:00
DocScrutinizerthe impact on image was more like green stripes on half of the screen, and finally whole screen collapsed into a single green horizontal line in the middle of the screen18:02
ShadowJKiirc in your video there were triangles flying around18:02
DocScrutinizernotably this also had impact on TV out which seems to depend on correct timing/data transfer to/from LCD18:02
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yes18:02
ShadowJKoh you're talking about cable break18:03
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DocScrutinizerTriscar0: first of all: reflash to a clean stock PR1.3 system, see if the defect vanishes for good then18:04
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DocScrutinizer2nd: back up all your data!!!18:04
DocScrutinizer3rd: check your purchase receipe and warranty18:05
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe make #2 actually topmost point on your todo list ;-D18:05
ShadowJKI'd do backup first ;P18:05
DocScrutinizer:-D lol18:06
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DocScrutinizeranybody experience with IP-cams for surveillance?18:06
DocScrutinizer(sorry for OT)18:07
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ShadowJKthe idea of running around rebooting surveillance cams all day seems fun18:07
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DocScrutinizerindeed, bothered me as well18:08
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DocScrutinizerthough this is only one cam here, the users are highly unlikely to even get the concept of rebooting a cam18:08
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DocScrutinizerso stability/watchdogs was actually one of the questions I had for experienced peers18:09
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DocScrutinizerI could do "remote scheduled reboot" via a timer-switch for PSU mains18:10
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ShadowJKI actually know a guy who resells ip surveillance cams18:11
ShadowJKor was going to18:11
DocScrutinizerwhat's the stories he tells in the bar about it?18:11
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ShadowJKbut he sort of thinks it's normal to powercycle things, so I dont think id get useful answers from him about reliability :)18:12
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* RST38h wonders how Ovi Suite people could keep jobs for so long18:12
DocScrutinizerwell, then he's familiar with my last-resort-approach to the issue18:12
DocScrutinizerRST38h: simple: OVI is topmost project of Nokia since ~2..3 years now18:13
DocScrutinizerso a letter of intent every other month will suffice18:13
DocScrutinizer(add a few pages explaining your "progress" and general nasty problems in running any appstore-alike thing, and you're fine)18:15
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DocScrutinizerthe lawyers will beef that up by another few 100 pages explaining the same for their particular segment in OVI, so managers won't finish reading one report until next one comes out 2 months later XP18:17
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ShadowJKit's kinda funny how when nokia announced it will make an appstore, analysts thought nokia's strength was in that it was good at accepting payments18:18
ShadowJKand yet we see lots of people having problems in getting the payments system of ovi work :p18:18
DocScrutinizerI have a hard time seeing Nokia being good in running a simple website18:19
ShadowJKwell they used to be experts at creating a frontpage that reiably crashed their pwn symbian devices ;p18:20
DocScrutinizerpawn symbian devices? :-D18:21
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DocScrutinizerSSO and general user account management also not exactly a domain Nokia excels in. Neither seems to be providing of SDKs and proper sw update strategy18:23
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ShadowJKmy symbian phone has been whininh about sw update for a year or so18:24
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DocScrutinizerhell, until new they are incapable of providing incremental upgrades - only full new PR releases, nothing else ever seen light of day18:25
ShadowJKbut i need a disposable windows computer or something to install ovisuite on first18:25
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: hell, until now they are incapable of providing incremental upgrades - only full new PR releases, nothing else ever seen light of day18:25
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DocScrutinizer(experts) well, it seems creating pages that crash the browser was a fairly recent bug ticket against harmattan as well ;-D18:27
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* RST38h is not even talking about Ovi Store18:28
RST38hThe Ovi Suite by itself feels like Satan's spawn18:28
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DocScrutinizerduh right. You said voi ssuite18:28
DocScrutinizerRST38h: it probably is18:29
DocScrutinizerfrankly I never touched it, matching OS missing here ;-P18:30
DocScrutinizerwhich actually is a sort of a missed opportunity, probably a windows crack could have RE'd quite some of the protocols and create some specs how to implement something similar but better (and less hell-related) on a *proper* OS18:32
DocScrutinizernever overestimate the number of true cross-platform developers and what they are willing to do for cross-platform18:34
DocScrutinizermost system level unix experts won't touch windows with a 10 feet pole18:35
DocScrutinizerwindows cracks usually are not that much familiar with unix concepts18:36
RST38hDoc: Trying to update an E7 to Anna here18:37
DocScrutinizerand the few ones that actually are sufficiently savvy to mess on both platforms frequently have better things on their todo list than porting ovi suite18:37
RST38hDoc: over-the-air update is not available18:37
DocScrutinizerfunny enough (or sad, depending on POV) we see a somewhat similar effect with fremantle vs HARM now18:39
DocScrutinizerof the 300 N950 bullets Nokia fired, 100some killed an active fremantle developer18:43
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kerioDocScrutinizer: wut18:44
DocScrutinizerkerio: nevermind, way too much my private POV. Never should've said it18:45
kerioyeah but now i want to know :(18:45
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* Sicelo agrees18:47
Sicelobeen thinking that for a while now18:47
DocScrutinizerkerio: how's MohammadAG's responsiveness and participation statistics here on #maemo changing since he got accepted for a N950? Pick arbitrary other active developers as of meego.som/developer_device_programm18:47
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kerioi see18:48
DocScrutinizerif all those developers would chat about their HARM topics here on #maemo still, the fremantle percentage of this channel already had dropped to 0.0n%18:50
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, yeah, I agree with you18:51
DocScrutinizerthat's why I pushed #harmattan when the N950 hype started18:51
VenemoDocScrutinizer, if only we had a newer software release on da N95018:51
Venemobut yeah, you are totally right18:52
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VenemoI played SO much with Fremantle and spent so much time with the N900 that the N950 with Harmattan feels like a fresh start.18:53
VenemoI would never have bought an N9 though, so if Nokia hadn't given me an N950 for free, I'd probably still mess with Fremantle18:54
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javispedroit is also way too different from fremantle/diablo to easily share stuff between both18:54
Venemojavispedro, what do you mean?18:54
javispedrobetween diablo and fremantle you could do with 10 or so #ifdefs18:55
javispedrobetween fremantle and harmattan, not so much.18:55
Venemojavispedro, umm, why?18:56
* javispedro fails to see why it is not evident18:56
javispedroharmattan requires a _complete_ rewrite18:56
Venemothat's true that I can't do QML on Diablo, but given the proper packages, even the qml-components apps can run on Fremantle.18:57
Venemocomplete rewrite? nope, only a partial rewrite of the GUI18:57
javispedro1) if you where in the diablo times your UI is probably Gtk+, so complee18:57
javispedro2) yeah, "run"18:58
javispedroas in, fennec-like.18:58
javispedroafter hours of waiting for it to spawn you get a completely non-native looking UI that takes ages to render18:58
Venemohave you actually tried? I'm just askin because I haven't (yet)18:58
Venemothat sounds very sad :(18:58
javispedroit does not take ages to render if you're fullscreen, but.... fremantle needs a title bar very much...18:59
Venemoharmattan apps cheat this by rendering the status bar for themselves19:00
Venemowhat a hack19:00
Venemoharmattan is, in fact, a bloody mess, because of this.19:00
RST38hjavispedro: Isn't Meego supposed to be a full rewrite of Harmattan?19:00
DocScrutinizerI always claimed it and now more than ever: there wasn't any better way for Nokia to put an end to maemo for good than to push meego-harmattan19:01
javispedroI like the Harmattan arch better because it works19:01
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: I always claimed it and now more than ever: there wasn't any better way for Nokia to put an end to $MAEMO* for good than to push meego-harmattan19:01
DocScrutinizerwhere are all the promises from "how I learned to love the bomb" about one-click-recompile compatibility between meego and maemo?19:03
DocScrutinizerhonestly if we had known 18 months ago what meego will look like in the end, nobody had accepted that maemo-moblin-merger and the strategy and rationale behind it19:05
cehtehhaha :P19:05
cehtehreally did you expected anything else?19:06
DocScrutinizernot really19:06
cehtehtake it, fuck it up, move along ...19:06
cehtehhey will that happen with WP too? :)19:06
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: actually, I am personally surprised.19:10
javispedroDocScrutinizer: I think the result would have been _quite_ worse.19:10
javispedros/I think/I believed19:10
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: well, the quality of HARM doesn't invalidate your previous statement of it being largely incompatible to diablo/fremantle19:12
javispedrobut I knew that from the day they bought qt, has nothing to do with meego.19:13
RST38hAhhahaha, Nokia did bungle Anna update after all19:13
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RST38h1. Ovi Suite (recommended way to update) does not work, requires Ovi login, hangs logging in with valid credentials19:14
RST38hBut I used Nokia Software Updater19:14
RST38h2. The software updates that have to be made AFTER the firmware update both fail19:14
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RST38hPeople on the forums say that QtMobility and QtWebkit fail to install19:15
RST38h"The Issue is that Qtmobility is conflicting with the already installed latest version that is 1.13 so when this component tries to install you will get "update error" This happen with qtmobility_pu.sis?? file."19:16
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: see, all this will have an end when Nokia completely switches to the wonderful world of microsoft ;-P19:16
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RST38hDoc: I shudder when thinking what will happen when they add Microsoft's idiots ot their own19:20
RST38hDoc: And lubricate them all with the perkele-management19:20
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, problem is, if Nokia goes the Microsoft way, who the heck else will manufacture proper semi-open Linux phones?19:24
VenemoDocScrutinizer, and I don't want to hear about android, thank you.19:25
DocScrutinizerI'm still hoping for Raster and Samsung19:25
javispedroI think a OpenMoko comeback is more likely than that :D19:26
javispedroah well.19:26
javispedromaybe they will exit the stupid phone market19:27
javispedrothat is the root of all evil19:27
VenemoSamsung? I was hoping for better.19:27
psycho_oreosI hope sooner than later for newer openmoko devices to appear. N9 isn't going to last forever19:27
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DocScrutinizerthere will be no new openmoko phones19:28
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Venemoalso, I doubt that I'll ever buy a smartphone again. a tablet+dumbphone combo is more affordable, more flexible, and more convenient in so many ways.19:28
psycho_oreosbut there was works in progress for new ones (at least for the base PCB)19:28
* javispedro prefers PDAs19:28
javispedroor maybe at most a 5'' tablet..19:29
DocScrutinizerthere's that gta04 project that is aimed at ~100 devices, and actually I dunno why it claims the openmoko name as it's largely unrelated to OM and for sure completely unrelated to OM_the_Inc19:29
* psycho_oreos still doesn't like the idea of tablet devices. Plus the idea of smartphone or internet tablet with phone functionality gives one less noticeable footprint in terms of tinkering around whilst at work or other places ;)19:30
Venemopsycho_oreos, well, that depends.19:30
DocScrutinizerbeen there troied that, with a featurephone + palmpilot, and again with a $whatever-phone + N810. It's basically unusable for me19:30
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: been there tried that, with a featurephone + palmpilot, and again with a $whatever-phone + N810. It's basically unusable for me19:31
psycho_oreosVenemo, you won't be caught offguard if you did this: :D19:31
javispedroDocScrutinizer: what you're not considering there as that I would probably drop $whatever-phone in the trash, I'm completely tired of phones.19:31
VenemoDocScrutinizer, why didn't it? what was the problem?19:31
VenemoDocScrutinizer, I would have thought that for web browsing or chatting, when going anywhere where a 7" device fits my pocket or bag, 7" is a lot better than 4".19:31
javispedrothe world of pervasive Wi-Fi is not yet here, but approaching.19:31
Venemopsycho_oreos, hehe19:32
psycho_oreosits just one prime example :) of how naive people can be when it comes to underestimating handheld technology19:32
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: this world will maybe arrive in some few towns19:32
DocScrutinizernever at least on many countries, country-wide19:32
psycho_oreoshacking? what hacking? I've only got a phone here, how the hell am I supposed to hack with just a phone? mmm?19:33
javispedroDocScrutinizer: places where I probably want to stay off the phone as long as possible19:34
Venemooh, and another advantage of the tablet+dumbphone combo: when you go to an unsafe place, you can leave your tablet home and not worry about your expensive smartphone19:34
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, I guess I'm speechless if there's no forward movement with newer OM devices coming out. I have rather strong hopes that OM would be the key to one's success should they be heavily attached to a linux platform with proper userland tools.19:34
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SpeedEvilOM - corporate - walked away a couple of year ago now.19:35
psycho_oreosVenemo, that's true but to think of the contrary if you have a rather exotic smartphone that was lost/stolen :) the thief wouldn't probably have as much clue as you would in trying to clear out the evidence :D19:35
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: OM_the_Inc is dead, OM_the_community has no resources to really build a consumer grade phone ready for primetime19:35
RST38h"Eric Schmidt has revealed that Google+ is an identity service, and the 'social network' bit is just bait. Schmidt says 'G+ is completely optional,' not mentioning that Google has admitted that deleting a G+ account will seriously downgrade your other Google services."19:35
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer && SpeedEvil, so in essence OM is also dead in its own tracks :( so much for high hopes.. I guess my next device maybe after N9 would probably be android based. I don't have much confidence over Samsung's phones but I guess we shall see19:37
ChoomRST38h: can you provide an URL for the full article?19:37
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: that's more or less exactly what made the approach useless. Every time you need some "smart functions" you bet you don't have that tablet with you. And then there's the missing contact db integration into $dialer19:37
VenemoDocScrutinizer, I dunno, I think I could live with that.19:38
ChoomRST38h: thanks19:38
javispedrooh god, Google+.19:38
VenemoDocScrutinizer, but there doesn't seem to be any smartphones that could even remotely replace the N900. Even the N9(50) barely lives up to the legacy of the N90019:38
javispedrothe other day I saw something worrisome. An actual interesting geek conversation between opensource people hidden behind the Google+ walls.19:39
DocScrutinizerindeed, that's why I ponder getting a few more N900 for spare19:39
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: there are always fools like the ones in German television ARD: In one program they tell how bad facebook is, in next program they tell "join us on facebook!"19:42
RST38hDoc: Facebook paid.19:42
DocScrutinizerRST38h: quite obviously. Few years ago they had the URL like http://ard.msn.com19:43
javispedroI have to say that I am finding a large bunch of supposed web forum haters in Google+, when Google+ looks to me like a large web forum.19:44
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DocScrutinizer99% of the managers and executives there have no idea about IT at large19:44
RST38hjavispedro: Most Net users look like aliens to me since about 3-5 years ago19:45
DocScrutinizerall lizards!!!1!11!!19:45
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RST38hjavispedro: I no longer understand what drives these creatures to engage into things they are engaing in (twitter, flickr, etc)19:45
RST38hDoc: lemmings, you mean?19:45
DocScrutinizernah lizards from outer space19:46
javispedrotwitter looks to me like IRC, so I can understand. It's also not hidden behind a registration wall.19:46
javispedroand flickr is just web hosting but tied to the whims of some nonsensical company instead of a proper ISP.19:46
RST38hjavispedro: but it is pretyt inconvinient, not thought-out IRC19:46
RST38hIRC is much more comfortable and has got a way more reliable infrastructure19:47
javispedrohere's when the "worse is better" rule comes in19:47
RST38hSo, WHY do they use twitter rather than IRC?19:47
RST38hAnd we have not even touched cesspools like ChatRoulette and OKCupid yet~19:47
Venemobecause it has a prettier-looking face19:47
javispedroI just had the idea of making a twitter-like interface to the #maemo IRC logs19:48
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RST38hWeb based IRC clients are known and they all suck.19:49
javispedrouse gravatar to get some avatars for nicknames, a regular expression to replace "username:" with "@username" and there you go19:49
RST38hAlthough with HTML5 you can probably contruct a decent client19:49
javispedroRST38h: if you can define HTML5 to me...19:50
Venemojavispedro, how do you use gravatar? IRC has no way of gathering e-mail addresses19:50
RST38hjavispedro: W3C standard.19:50
javispedroRST38h: which does not have anything that could potentially help a IRC client..19:50
javispedroif you grab any of the existing JS IRC clients, and tell to yourself, OK, I'm going to use HTML5 to enhace it19:51
javispedroWTH are you going to do?19:51
javispedrouse a canvas to render messages?19:51
javispedrouse a video element to play.... the latest youtube crap?19:51
DocScrutinizertime for 12648430   ☕19:51
Venemoyou need to pay to a graphics designer guy to make a pretty UI for you. that's it.19:51
DocScrutinizerand cake19:51
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* javispedro is of the opinion that HTML5 is a stepback from XHTML, so..19:52
Venemojavispedro, I had that opinion, but then I noticed that it is not19:52
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javispedroenlighten me19:53
Venemojavispedro, HTML5 clearly defines how to render incorrect markup, which wasn't contained by either of the previous (X)HTML specs19:53
RST38hjavispedro: of course, use the fucking canvas! and use offline storage for logs!19:53
javispedrogreat, incorrect markup!19:53
javispedroXHTML also defines how to render incorrect markup19:53
javispedroby NOT rendering it :)19:53
javispedrooffline storage is not HTML5!19:54
Venemonow the script kiddies will still make crappy web sites with crappy markup, but it will at least appear the same way in every browser.19:54
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javispedroand the cost is that you now have to implement SGML parsers which are like 10x the complexity.19:54
Venemojavispedro, you had to do that still.19:55
Venemobecause browsers DO render incorrect markup19:55
Venemobut not in the same way19:55
javispedroand thus 10x the slowness, because some kiddy wanted to use FrontPage 1998 and it doesn't close <p> tags19:55
Venemoso the script kiddie wrote some crappy HTML and he said "it works in IE8+, and not in crappy Firefox" => this is at least no more, if he switches to HTML5, both of them will render his crappy code in the same way.19:56
Venemoapart from this nuissance, I do not care about HTML5 at all.19:57
Venemoall my sites are XHTML 1.1, and will be for some time.19:57
javispedroif IE8 implemented XHTML, his crappy code would also render the same way19:57
VenemoCSS3, however, is very interesting and I already use some of its stuff (rounded corners, shadows, etc)19:57
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VenemoChoom, the article is not true and incorrect in several points.19:59
Choommind to point them out?20:00
javispedroChoom: it even contradicts itself on the first sentence.20:00
javispedro "XHTML is a markup language originally hoped to someday replace HTML"20:01
javispedroand in the myths section,20:01
Choomhow's that a contradiction?20:01
javispedro"In fact, the World Wide Web Consortium recently renewed the HTML working group, which is working to develop HTML 5"20:01
Venemojavispedro, "originally hoped to" != "now hoped to"20:01
Venemothe mistake is here:20:01
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Venemo"XHTML has all of the same elements and attributes (including presentational ones) that HTML has" ----> this is ONLY true for XHTML 1.0 Transitional, not XHTML 1.0 Strict, and NOT XHTML 1.120:02
Choomthere's htnk 4.1 strict too20:02
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VenemoChoom, if you mean HTML 4.01, yes, but that's a completely different thing with completely different purposes20:03
Choomanyway read the rest of the document20:04
Choomincluding quotes from browser vendors discouraging people from using it20:04
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Choomall major browser vendors are represented there with quotes20:05
Venemoyeah, I'm reading it.20:05
* javispedro sighs20:05
javispedrowhat are they going to say? with IE not implementing XHTML at all?20:05
Venemowell, as soon as HTML5 becomes widespread, I'll just switch to it. simply for 2 reasons: 1) the sake of the feature I mentioned above 2) because XHTML 2 has been abandoned long ago.20:06
javispedrohow do you "switch" to HTML5?20:07
javispedroit's like the agglomeration of all the previous standards plus the dedeprecation of all the previous crap plus whatever apple had in mind these days20:08
javispedrobasically, you switch to HTML5 by stoping caring about validation.20:08
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VenemoI "switch" by replacing my doctype.20:09
javispedroor removing the version number from it20:09
Venemoanyway, I need to leave now, will be back later :)20:09
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NIN101ShadowJK: ping22:41
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