IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-07-14

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Atarii	is there anywhere to search to find which repo an app is in?	00:01
DocScrutinizer	well, the sky wasn't exacly clear blue, so maybe GPS signal wasn't the best nevertheless	00:01
DocScrutinizer	Atarii: I once thought I could thell from apt-cache policy	00:02
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Atarii	from repos I don't have I mean	00:02
trumee	DocScrutinizer: worse than N900?	00:02
Atarii	like a web interface?	00:02
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DocScrutinizer	trumee: like N900 in the early days	00:02
trumee	DocScrutinizer: was that a hw or sw issue?	00:03
DocScrutinizer	on N900? probably a cmt-firmware issue	00:03
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DocScrutinizer	Atarii: http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/	00:04
DocScrutinizer	errr	00:04
DocScrutinizer	nope	00:04
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DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.org/packages/	00:04
DocScrutinizer	should help	00:04
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Atarii	perfect	00:05
Atarii	cheers :)	00:05
DocScrutinizer	yw	00:05
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trumee	DocScrutinizer: com.nokia.csd.Call.Instance Terminated gets triggered even on an incoming missed call	00:06
trumee	DocScrutinizer: oh well. life cannot be perfect	00:06
DocScrutinizer	trumee: maybe you actually need to keep track of established calls and type of call established	00:07
trumee	DocScrutinizer: yes, perhaps.	00:07
DocScrutinizer	trumee: but yeah, it gets triggered for end of all cmt calls	00:08
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DocScrutinizer	where call==session here, and session == all that makes modem act as a phone	00:08
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holmesIII	hi, i finally cal init HAL and get the battery information	00:09
DocScrutinizer	except SMS I hope, and USSD	00:09
trumee	DocScrutinizer: yes need to try out SMS. i dont use USSD	00:10
DocScrutinizer	a session in call context is starting with sending the "invite" to initiate a call, or inbound "invite", and ends when call is terminated either way	00:10
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holmesIII	just one question: Im trying to log the battery information every second/minitus. but i found, if the screen is off, then the battery information will remain the same for a long time, but if i click the screen and make it light, then the battery information will change immediately.	00:10
DocScrutinizer	trumee: It'd be great if you try USSD nevertheless	00:11
holmesIII	can anybody tell me why?	00:11
trumee	DocScrutinizer: never used it before, give me a command?	00:11
DocScrutinizer	trumee: it's not really hard to send a *111#	00:11
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DocScrutinizer	or *555#	00:11
trumee	ok, i get a Request Not completed + Popup doesnt appear	00:12
holmesII	hi, Docscrutinizer, help!!	00:12
trumee	DocScrutinizer: so all good i suppose	00:12
DocScrutinizer	you'll receive an error reply usually, but that's a rather valid USSD anyway	00:12
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vdv	if i do qchroot image dir, some mounts are done behind the scene, those mounts are not undo if i leave chroot, isn't there any command to "cleanup" after leaving chroot?	00:13
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DocScrutinizer	holmesII: I told you that your plans are useless, battery info doesn't change like 1/second, not even once per minute	00:14
holmesII	i know, it won't change so quick. I just want to know, if i get the battery info from HAL. is that the most direct information I can get?	00:15
DocScrutinizer	this is done for saving battery, as you don't want to run CPU all the time to monitor how battery gets eaten by monitoring battery - that's nonsense	00:15
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DocScrutinizer	holmesII: sorry, I really can't answer your extremely generic questions - I have no idea what you want to do, what you finally want to achieve. There's a lot of info at various rates, and each of them has a different meaning. Asking for "reading out battery info the fastest possible way" just sounds like artificial nonsense to me	00:17
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holmesII	i don't want to read the battery in a fast way. I just want to log the info, maybe 1 second a time, maybe 1 minute, maybe 1 hour a time. it doesn't matter how fast i log it.	00:18
DocScrutinizer	I'm not asking "how can I determine my body size 10 times per second?" - dunno if that's a good example	00:18
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holmesII	the thing isi want to confirm if i just run my logger program and leave the phone there. the screen will shut off the light few seconds later. I just wonder, in that case, my programm running in the background will get the current battery capacity exactly?	00:20
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DocScrutinizer	holmesII: well there's bme, the battery management entity. The info in hal about charge state is origin bme. bme is known to be a sucker and often lie about battery capacity, and probably it doesn't update hal capacity when there are "certain conditions" that make it likely nobody is interested in actual values. locked screen being one of those "certain conditions"	00:22
holmesII	right now, i am running my logger program and log the battery capacity every second, i also print out the result in terminal. i connect it by SSH. and see the current capacity stay in 529mha for a very long time.	00:22
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DocScrutinizer	yes, known "problem" with bme	00:22
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holmesII	i got it. that's why now i click the screen and the battery capacity is turn to 513	00:23
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DocScrutinizer	check out this script: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/jrbme/bq27200	00:23
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holmesII	what does that script for?	00:24
DocScrutinizer	it directly reads out the hardware, and sometimes the charge percentage isn't all that bad - sometimes it's off though esp when CI=1	00:24
DocScrutinizer	what always is correct though are the values for voltage of cell, and current in/out of cell	00:25
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holmesII	yes, i need the current in/out information	00:25
DocScrutinizer	you'll need i2ctools package for that	00:25
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* trumee wonders why pixelpipe was pulled out of ovi store.		00:26
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DocScrutinizer	pr0n?	00:26
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trumee	it was a useful sharing plugin	00:26
DocScrutinizer	holmesII: even this script doesn't make any sense to run more frequently than every 5s, as that's the window raster of the hw probing	00:27
DocScrutinizer	you can run it with a parameter that gives a loop time in seconds	00:28
DocScrutinizer	like bq27200.sh 30	00:28
DocScrutinizer	for one reading every 30s	00:28
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holmesII	i made it chmod 777 bq27200.sh	00:28
holmesII	however, i can't run it in my N900	00:29
DocScrutinizer	if you run it every 5s, you basically cover the full time 100%, as it shows the average values for the last completed 5.12s window	00:29
holmesII	it said /bin/sh: can't open	00:29
DocScrutinizer	holmesII: toldya you need i2ctools package installed	00:29
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DocScrutinizer	err	00:29
holmesII	can't find it when i try apt-get install i2ctools	00:30
DocScrutinizer	maybe you need to use full pathname to script, place it in a location that your $PATH variable lists as valid location for executables, or add the dir where you placed it to $PATH	00:30
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DocScrutinizer	i2ctools is in extras-devel repo afaik	00:31
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Sicelo	~seen robbiethe1st	00:32
DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.org/packages/ helps a lot	00:32
holmesII	well, if i keep the screen light on, can i get the battery up-to-date information	00:33
infobot	robbiethe1st <~robbiethe@71-34-223-199.spkn.qwest.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 3d 9h 49m 42s ago, saying: 'Facebook = evil'.	00:33
DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search[1][property]=name&org_maemo_packages_search[1][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[1][value]=i2c&org_maemo_packages_search[2][property]=title&org_maemo_packages_search[2][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[2][value]=same	00:34
DocScrutinizer	holmesII: don't you think this is an exceptionally silly question?	00:35
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holmesII	i really don't know. i am so sorry.	00:35
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DocScrutinizer	what's the use in monitoring battery when you keep screen on which is knows to be the hugest power-hog after 3G-data and will eat battery in max 6h. I don't need to monitor battery to tell you it won't last any longer than 6h when you keep screen backlight on	00:36
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DocScrutinizer	so we again are at the point where I completely fail to understand WHY you are doing all this	00:38
DocScrutinizer	it makes no sense to me	00:38
holmesII	i have another program and i need to know how fast that program consume the battery.	00:38
holmesII	make a compare	00:38
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DocScrutinizer	and I have a hard time giving advice for sth that makes no sense, just as I can't decide what is a good advice when I don't know what's the purpose	00:39
holmesII	that's why i need to write a logger	00:39
DocScrutinizer	ok, you want to know how much power $tandom-acme-program is using? use the script I gave you, it's the best for that purpose	00:40
Sicelo	thanks for that link DocScrutinizer, saved me from making a donkey of myself	00:41
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DocScrutinizer	check this http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption and that http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powerscript	00:41
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DocScrutinizer	Sicelo: which link?	00:42
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Sicelo	package search.. i was needing /lib/libac1.s0.1 and /lib/libattr.so.1.1.0 for backupmenu, hence the highlighting to robbiethe1st	00:44
holmesII	thank you so much! If you got my idea early, you could saved me few days ago.	00:44
DocScrutinizer	holmesII: it's been you who was kinda non-verbous about your idea. You always asked about details without mentioning what you are doing. This is prone to fail	00:46
DocScrutinizer	a good read for next weekend:	00:46
DocScrutinizer	~question	00:46
infobot	i heard question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html	00:46
hiemanshu	'lo	00:46
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holmesII	i can run http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powerscript now, but i can't run http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/jrbme/bq27200, it said /bin/sh can't open	01:11
holmesII	i already installed i2ctools	01:11
DocScrutinizer	forget my script at user:joerg, the simplified script at http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powerscript is perfect for your purpose	01:12
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holmesII	yes. thanks. please let me know what's the meaning of these three? NAC CACD CACT	01:20
holmesII	theirs resutls seem the same. but i don't know what's that.	01:20
holmesII	the unit is mhA, those three report the same number. but they are not the same of battery.reporting.current	01:21
javispedro	thank god the nfs module is whitelisted by aegis	01:23
holmesII	i will come back later. please let me know the meaning of NAC CACD CACT and the relathionship between those three and battery.reporting.current . Thanks!!	01:23
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jonwil	bah, still cant figure out how to get GDB to attach to hildon-desktop :(	02:42
javispedro	you will see two hildon-desktop processes	02:43
javispedro	one is the launcher stub	02:43
javispedro	use the second one	02:43
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jonwil	thanks, that seems to work	02:52
javispedro	lls	02:54
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jonwil	god GDB sucks for debugging a shared library loaded with dlopen()	02:59
javispedro	technically it should work out of the box	02:59
jonwil	Its too hard to find out where in memory the library ended up :(	02:59
jonwil	I cant get gdb to recognize where the library loaded	03:00
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DocScrutinizer	jonwil: run the main executable loading this lib, until it calls some lib function?	03:08
jonwil	if you know how I can attach to hildon-desktop before its loaded any plugins, that would be nice to know :P	03:08
jonwil	but I dont think either xterm or ssh is able to run at that point in time :P	03:09
hawai`i	Neigh impossible.	03:09
hawai`i	You might be able to kick the watchdog, kill it using dsmetool and then spawn it again inside gdb	03:10
DocScrutinizer	very very very simple: replace the line in upstart script (or whatever) saying "hildon-desktop" by "gdb(-remote) hildon-desktop"	03:10
* javispedro thinks gdb has had this feature for ages, and in fact I remember using it even on the older N900 arm version..		03:10
jonwil	I used info sharedlibrary which lists some libraries	03:11
jonwil	but doesnt list the ones opened with dlopebn	03:11
jonwil	dlopen	03:11
jonwil	since they were opened before gdb ran	03:11
DocScrutinizer	"older N900 arm version" - what's that?	03:11
jonwil	I dont think changing the hildon-desktop startup script will help since gdb will require user input at that point, input that I cant provide as there is no terminal	03:12
hawai`i	...	03:12
javispedro	jonwil: that does not work that way, it's actually easier to read the current loaded objects _after_ dlopen has been called	03:12
jonwil	oh ok	03:12
DocScrutinizer	that's where the "remote" bit comes in	03:12
javispedro	it's just a linked list	03:12
jonwil	so how come info sharedlibraries doesnt display them then?	03:13
javispedro	so no idea why it does not work on hd	03:13
javispedro	maybe lack of "-g"?	03:13
javispedro	you can build h-d with -g	03:13
javispedro	and then either replace your device's	03:13
javispedro	or just touch /etc/no_lg_reboots to be able to kill stock h-d.	03:14
DocScrutinizer	wut?	03:14
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javispedro	"wut?"?	03:14
DocScrutinizer	javispedro disclosing some if his very special magic curses ?	03:14
javispedro	hah	03:14
javispedro	but this is very old stuff	03:15
javispedro	from 770 days =)	03:15
DocScrutinizer	yeah, very special secret magic	03:15
jonwil	as for changing the init script, that wont work since it wont be attaching gdb to the second h-d process, the one that is spawned via maemo-launcher	03:15
DocScrutinizer	never ever heard about /etc/no_lg_reboots	03:15
hawai`i	Why can't you respawn it from within gdb?	03:15
javispedro	lg means lifeguard iirc.	03:16
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DocScrutinizer	hah	03:16
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: right	03:16
hawai`i	Use dsmetool to kill it and then exec within gdb.	03:16
jonwil	ok, how do I do that with dsmetool? and how do I exec within gdb?	03:17
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: unless yiu use that magic -f(?) for follow-forked-processes	03:17
* javispedro suggest building "-g" h-d, makes things much easier...		03:17
DocScrutinizer	?	03:17
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jonwil	gdbserver doesn't support that -f option	03:18
jonwil	nor does gdb	03:18
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hawai`i	Either way, you'll need lifeguards turned off -> might as well simply rebuild hildon-desktop as per javispedro.	03:18
jonwil	at least not the binaries I have	03:18
DocScrutinizer	first of all, take dsmetool out of the equation, for this edit upstart script	03:18
hawai`i	What would be the purpose of that?	03:18
DocScrutinizer	X doesn't need to be run under dsme supervision	03:19
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jonwil	so if I edit the upstart script, that will remove the need to fiddle with the watchdog bits?	03:19
DocScrutinizer	and it's actually dsme that reboots when X process quits, I guess	03:19
hawai`i	Why would you muck with upstart when you an safely kill and restart it "preattached"?	03:19
jonwil	preattaching it wont work since the gdb I have doesnt support -f	03:20
javispedro	fiddle with the watchdog?	03:20
javispedro	what's so hard about touching a file in /etc? =)	03:20
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jonwil	so I cant get it to attach to the other process, the one started by maemo-launcher	03:20
hawai`i	Oh.	03:20
jonwil	so will any of these ideas actually help me?	03:21
jonwil	given the lack of -f	03:21
jonwil	and inabillity to attach to the actual hildon-desktop process and not the stub	03:21
javispedro	What I would do: build h-d with -g. touch /etc/no_lg_reboots. upload built h-d to device. killall hildon-desktop. run and attach.	03:21
javispedro	because the reason dso tracking does not work is most probably lack of -g	03:22
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jonwil	except that I dont have a clue how to build hildon-desktop	03:22
javispedro	oh	03:22
DocScrutinizer	forget all my nonsesne comments	03:22
javispedro	apt-get source hildon-desktop on ARMEL sdk	03:22
javispedro	apt-get build-dep hildon-desktop	03:22
javispedro	enter hildon-desktop-* folder	03:23
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javispedro	dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot	03:23
javispedro	the binary will be around src/	03:23
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DocScrutinizer	there is cruft and black magic like /usr/bin/hildon-startup-progress in etc/events.d/	03:23
hawai`i	Uh. gdb 'set follow-fork-mode'	03:23
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javispedro	in fact, if you build it, you can get the standalone executable -- without launcher magic.	03:23
DocScrutinizer	hawai`i: that's what I meant by -f	03:23
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hawai`i	And that doesn't work, inconjuction with set detach-on-fork, why?	03:24
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jonwil	how do I make sure that dpkg-buildpackage builds hildon-desktop with -g?	03:24
javispedro	it is always built with -g, however debian strips it during package creating	03:25
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hawai`i	That will give gdb control over all subsequently forked processes	03:25
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javispedro	so if you get the executable from src/ instead of using the created package, you will be fine.	03:25
jonwil	oh ok	03:25
jonwil	sounds good	03:25
javispedro	what I do not remember at the moment is how relatively easy is to get a standalone executable (instead of .launch stuff)	03:26
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javispedro	btw launch stuff you can invoke with maemo-summoner	03:26
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javispedro	lot of stuff to understand here, but fortunately this is mostly known -- lots of h-d hackers around	03:28
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DocScrutinizer	hehe	03:28
jonwil	I imagine I am not the first guy who wants to run a debugger on a hildon-desktop status bar gizmo plugin :)	03:29
DocScrutinizer	you bet	03:29
DocScrutinizer	acme sigsegv gizmo plugin	03:30
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javispedro	acme sigsegv plugin =)	03:30
DocScrutinizer	on wiki, under tools section, there was a strace incantation that runs all processes on the system under strace	03:30
DocScrutinizer	but I guess it also attaches late	03:31
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villager	jonwil: also you can usually set the environment variable DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip during package build in order to make the .deb contain unstripped binaries	03:32
jonwil	ok, now running dpkg-buildpackage	03:32
* DocScrutinizer ponders to bookmark the chanlog of -like- an hour ago		03:33
DocScrutinizer	best most terse tutorial ever	03:34
DocScrutinizer	javispedro spitting out one line that saves you 5h googling and reading thru 50 pages manual and nagedinag	03:35
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DocScrutinizer	mere platinum	03:35
javispedro	=)	03:36
javispedro	remember the original problem was gdb not reading dlopen'd dsos	03:36
javispedro	and that's not solved yet =)	03:36
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jonwil	lets hope building hildon-desktop with -G can help	03:39
jonwil	-g	03:39
DocScrutinizer	I wonder if dlopen() loaded libs are identical to the ones that get loaderlinked	03:40
DocScrutinizer	in the memory program text	03:41
DocScrutinizer	e.g. gbd could go for the list of linked libs in ELF	03:41
javispedro	yes	03:41
javispedro	that's how it works -- or at least how I think it wors	03:42
javispedro	there's a global linked list with its head on a well-known symbol	03:42
javispedro	it contains pointers to ELF headers of all loaded images	03:42
javispedro	be it executables or shared objects	03:42
DocScrutinizer	aaah, ok then	03:43
DocScrutinizer	that list isn't sttaic :-)	03:43
DocScrutinizer	static	03:43
javispedro	nope	03:43
DocScrutinizer	I was concerned gdb could look directly to the static list of libs as founf in binaries ELF	03:44
javispedro	for some reason I know how this works on MacOS X better than ELF =)	03:44
DocScrutinizer	s/binaries/executable's/	03:44
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: I was concerned gdb could look directly to the static list of libs as founf in executable's ELF	03:44
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jonwil	ok, I rebuilt h-d now and other than some errors about signatures, it seems to have worked	03:46
DocScrutinizer	but anyway, all the libs' functions have to show up on the list of known symbols eventually, and that's the linked list you meant, I guess	03:46
jonwil	ok, I see a file called hildon-desktop in the /src folder	03:47
jonwil	is that the one I want?	03:47
javispedro	run file on it, see if its a dso, symlink or plain executable	03:47
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* DocScrutinizer yawns and mumbles "bookmarked.... http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html ... too late..."		03:48
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jonwil	ok, file says "ELF 32-bit LSB shared object,. ARM"	03:48
javispedro	dso, ah well.	03:48
jonwil	so what do I need to do?	03:49
javispedro	you should be able to run this via "maemo-summoner path/to/this/file"	03:49
jonwil	now that I have h-d built?	03:49
jonwil	ok, sounds good	03:49
javispedro	so, "gdb --args maemo-summoner /a/b"	03:49
jonwil	ok, so what do I do to properly kill the old h-d process without tripping a reboot?	03:50
DocScrutinizer	4.3. dlsym() http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/dl-libraries.html	03:50
javispedro	touch /etc/no_lg_reboots and kill it	03:50
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gn00b	finally got openoffice to compile in less than an hour. Wed Jul 13 11:19:39 2011 >>> app-office/openoffice-3.2.1-r1 merge time: 55 minutes and 33 seconds.	03:50
jonwil	ok, that didnt work	03:51
javispedro	gn00b: clearly, your build was incomplete, that's impossible.	03:51
jonwil	I did touch /etc/no_lg_reboots	03:51
jonwil	then killall hildon-dekstop	03:51
jonwil	but it just got restarted (presumably by dsme)	03:51
javispedro	hm	03:51
gn00b	i7 950 12gb ram	03:51
jonwil	I suspect I need to use dsmetool to kill it	03:51
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jonwil	ideas anyone?	03:52
RiD	hello :)	03:52
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jonwil	doing any kind of debugging on any of the "critical" processes such as hildon-desktop, mce etc is a pain in the ass	03:53
RiD	I am a pain in the ass too, believe me	03:54
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javispedro	jonwil: /etc/init.d/hildon-desktop stop	03:56
javispedro	gn00b: still impossibe, OOo always automatically enlarges to fill all available cores and disk space	03:57
javispedro	I still remember when building it just required 2 GiB...	03:57
RiD	houston, I got a problem! My battery life is really low: it doesn't last one day IDLE. And there's nothing stressing the CPU. It just happened, after i left the fone turned off 4 days	03:57
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SpeedEvil	What applications have you got installed?	03:58
SpeedEvil	Anything that polls the network?	03:58
RiD	nope, nothing.	03:58
RiD	I mean, every application that polls the network is in "manual" mode	03:58
DocScrutinizer	RiD: chech ifconfig to see traffic you didn't know about. If there is any, use tshark to see what exactly it is. use pwertop to find hidden CPU hogs. If nothing helps, switch down modem completely - after all your carrier could allow floodpinging your IP, and that wouldn't even show up as traffic on your ifconfig output is some cases	04:01
jonwil	ok, its NOT hildon-desktop that I need to debug, its hildon-home	04:01
jonwil	bah	04:01
DocScrutinizer	MUHAHA	04:01
jonwil	no wonder things arent working	04:01
jonwil	aha, NOW I see the library I want in the library list	04:03
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: well, now you've built hildon-desktop - isn't this amking you feel better alrady ;-)	04:04
jonwil	:P	04:04
DocScrutinizer	DARN I can't type anymore	04:04
DocScrutinizer	anyway many thanks. You made javispedro do a lesson hour that's better than all bookreading	04:05
DocScrutinizer	:-D	04:05
DocScrutinizer	of course many thanks to you javispedro as well, for that lesson	04:06
SpeedEvil	About what - should I read backscroll?	04:06
DocScrutinizer	how to build and gdb $random-program	04:06
SpeedEvil	ah	04:06
javispedro	dunno, I just commented on how I used to do build and test my h-d patches =)	04:07
DocScrutinizer	here: hilden-desktop	04:07
DocScrutinizer	:-D	04:07
RiD	DocScrutinizer what should i exactly search in ifconfig? in "lo" it shows RX bytes:36818 (35.9 KiB) TX bytes:36818 (35.9 KiB),etc. everything seems normal, wlan is using a bit more (obviously, I'm connected to my home wifi)	04:08
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SpeedEvil	also - powertop	04:08
SpeedEvil	Get screen	04:08
jonwil	btw, there are things that will take longer to build than OO.o	04:08
jonwil	building gcc is an excercise in pain for example	04:08
SpeedEvil	gcc was painless for me last time	04:09
SpeedEvil	oh - you mean cross	04:09
RiD	SpeedEvil: what the hell.. no command found (even on root)	04:09
SpeedEvil	you need to install powertop and screen from the sdk repos	04:09
RiD	SpeedEvil oh, forgive my n00bishness. I'll do it now	04:09
javispedro	jonwil: noway, OOo takes waywaywayway more	04:10
jonwil	ok	04:10
javispedro	and like 15GiB last time I builti t	04:10
DocScrutinizer	RiD: in gprs0 compare traffic values after some time, if they changed	04:10
nox-	i wonder what takes longer to build, ooo or atlas...	04:10
jonwil	whats atlas?	04:10
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javispedro	build OOo on a N900!	04:10
javispedro	maybe by next year you'll already have oowriter!	04:11
javispedro	if the flash chip doesn't die first.	04:11
nox-	some maths libs that do lots of optimizations during the build which take a long time	04:11
nox-	http://math-atlas.sourceforge.net/	04:12
DocScrutinizer	RiD: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management	04:12
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nox-	bbl	04:12
jonwil	KDE should go on the list of things that take forever to build	04:12
nox-	true	04:12
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: 15GiB RAM?	04:13
jonwil	especially if you need to emerge a full new set of libs for QT etc at the same time	04:13
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: disk	04:13
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: .o files, etc.	04:13
DocScrutinizer	meh that's nuttin. Try libboost	04:13
javispedro	nah, libboost is like 20% the time of OOo	04:13
DocScrutinizer	:-P	04:13
javispedro	OOo is like the ultimate C++ monster	04:13
javispedro	whenever there's a new version I shudder	04:14
villager	I thought OOo had lots of java in it too	04:14
nox-	doesnt ooo build its own copy of python etc too?	04:14
javispedro	well I don't know why it takes so much to build so it maybe builds its copy of python, and of Linux, and of GCC, and of whatever else.	04:14
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: OK you shot the bull's eye with KDE	04:14
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jonwil	Thankfully OO.o is not something I have installed	04:15
* javispedro gnite		04:15
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: aaaw	04:15
DocScrutinizer	:-D	04:15
DocScrutinizer	good night	04:15
nox-	gnite javispedro	04:16
javispedro	vya	04:16
* nox- too		04:16
DocScrutinizer	gentoo native	04:16
DocScrutinizer	;-P	04:16
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DocScrutinizer	inck KDE and OOo	04:16
DocScrutinizer	now top THAT!	04:16
DocScrutinizer	XP	04:16
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RiD	DocScrutinizer: It's now collecting data	04:17
nox-	installing and setting up a fresh XP still takes longer than building ooo :P	04:17
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DocScrutinizer	last I heard is you can only use every second update, as with the first update you're still compiling ;-P	04:18
nox-	hahaha	04:18
FIQ\|n900	<DocScrutinizer> now top THAT!	04:18
FIQ\|n900	linux!	04:18
FIQ\|n900	ok, jk	04:18
DocScrutinizer	gentoo is linux, no?	04:18
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FIQ\|n900	lol gentoo	04:19
FIQ\|n900	"Build everything from source! Do it, MANUALLY is the best. You will earn about 1s within booting!	04:20
FIQ\|n900	that's my feeling about it	04:20
FIQ\|n900	s/"//	04:20
RiD	DocScrutinizer: A whole bunch of characters appeared, as expected haha. last two lines were: Total wakeups 17903, 596.8/s \| IRQ 14221, 474.0/s \| Timers 3682, 122.7/snHW wakeups 0, 0.0/s \| Real gp_timers expired 234, 7.8/s	04:20
DocScrutinizer	RiD: please refer to the URLs I posted above. SpeedEvil explained powertop quite nicely there (except that last two lines, as I noticed today ;-D )	04:22
DocScrutinizer	your phone looks a bit busy anyway, just from looking at those last two lines even	04:23
DocScrutinizer	powertop will elaborate on which process was that busy, in the "lots of characters" above	04:24
FIQ\|n900	I prefer calling it line noise when I don't understand a single character :D	04:24
FIQ\|n900	whatever	04:24
RiD	Haha, most likely because I'm chatting from the phone. I'll take a deeper look on those pages	04:24
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DocScrutinizer	they are worse it - SpeedEvil is an excellent analytic and teacher	04:26
DocScrutinizer	worth ;-P	04:26
DocScrutinizer	MEH good night	04:26
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RiD	See ya later, then	04:27
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RiD	C0 \| 16.0% \| \| 1150 MHz \| nan% \|	04:32
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SpeedEvil	It doesn't understand powerkenrel	04:33
RiD	Ah, It scared me. D;	04:34
RiD	hildon desktop is in the 1st place of activthe top activity. PID1324 Activity:1836 Function Entry(exp): schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)	04:37
SpeedEvil	With screen blanked?	04:38
SpeedEvil	start powertop, blank the screen, wait 60s	04:39
RiD	with blanked you mean turned off right? (<- what a stupid question)	04:39
SpeedEvil	yes	04:39
RiD	back, hildon-desktop is still the top activity.	04:43
RiD	1324 \| 1874 \| hildon-desktop \| schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)	04:43
RiD	86% of the time it kept in C1 state, left percentage was in C0.	04:44
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SpeedEvil	Somethings screwy.	04:45
SpeedEvil	What widgets do you have active?/	04:45
RiD	haha i knew it! :/	04:45
RiD	omweather and ussd widget	04:45
RiD	both only update when i decide to	04:46
SpeedEvil	http://pastebin.com/d0pQerKM	04:47
SpeedEvil	for example - is my device - with USB unplugged	04:47
RiD	what a big difference!	04:48
SpeedEvil	'C4' state is the state it should be in most of the time.	04:48
RiD	It seems like it's never in C4, then.	04:48
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DocScrutinizer	RiD: do you have a "short" applauncher menu? I.E. a menu with so few icons that it can not scroll up or down?	04:50
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RiD	http://pastebin.com/Na3ctbGp - that's mine. It was done connected to WiFi	04:50
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RiD	yes, I do.	04:50
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SpeedEvil	that's it then	04:51
DocScrutinizer	RiD: there's a bug in hildon-desktop	04:51
DocScrutinizer	it constantly tries bouncing up and down when menu is "too short"	04:51
RiD	Right now all i want to do is throw myself at the window	04:51
RiD	But it's cold outside	04:51
DocScrutinizer	either make your menu longer, or get the fixed hildon-desktop, see CSSU	04:52
RiD	I can't really believe that my menu was haunting me.	04:52
Termana	good morning	04:53
RiD	thanks everyone, heh. I had CSSU before, maybe I'll install it or just add more icons (currently it's just two rows)	04:53
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RiD	But only the main launcher layer matters, or does the other ones have an impact too? (folders)	04:54
jonwil	well that was a bust	04:54
DocScrutinizer	RiD: unclear	04:55
DocScrutinizer	this bug dates back to PR1.2 and I fixed it by replacing hildon desktop original with the way better and bugfixed matan's Modified Hildon Desktop	04:56
jonwil	debugging connui-cellular-operator-home-item.so, libconnui.so.0 and libconnui_cell.so.0 brought me no closer to figuring out the connui functions I want to call	04:56
jonwil	specifically the callback function passed to connui_cell_net_status_register	04:57
jonwil	:(	04:57
SpeedEvil	:/	04:57
DocScrutinizer	so I can't say if the bug is only in main applauncher screen, but I guess it's not	04:57
RiD	DocScrutinizer: Well, I'll install CSSU then	04:57
DocScrutinizer	either that, or just MHD	04:58
RiD	Thanks again to DocScrutinizer and SpeedEvil :D	04:58
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools	04:58
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marainein	when i switch my n900's wlan0 to monitor mode and back to managed mode, it disconnects from the wireless network it was on. i can reconnect it through the gui, but how can i get it to reconnect via the command line?	05:01
DocScrutinizer	# fix annoying hildon-desktop cpu hog bug	05:01
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RiD	Oh by the way,my tracker isn't working. It simply doesnt indexes any of my media. (this has been for some time too, but i never really cared about that because i dont use some of the stock applications such as the media player etc)	05:07
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RiD	I'm off, it's 3:12 here and I have more stuff to do xD.	05:12
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holmesII	can anyone tell me which value is exact equal to battery.reporting.current? http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/jrbme/bq27200	05:16
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marainein	solved my problem from before - had to stop icd2 before switching to monitor mode and start it after switching back to managed mode	05:20
jonwil	libconnui_cell is annoying the hell out of me, I wanna call it but I cant figure out how :(	05:23
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jonwil	May need to give up hope ever being able to call it :P	05:35
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RST38h	Well. Moo all.	10:45
RST38h	Still no doughnut in the mail.	10:45
luke-jr\|otg	...	10:45
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cityLights	~seen lardman	10:49
infobot	lardman <~lardman@138-38-179-9.docking.bath.ac.uk> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 15h 40m 14s ago, saying: 'deimos: thanks, I got a dhl tracking number after contacting Nokia, but the package had already been delivered (or attempted anyway) '.	10:49
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deimos	wow 23 hours and 3 minutes takes DHL come here :D	12:33
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deimos	a teletransport should be better :)	12:34
Termana	rage	12:36
Termana	:p	12:36
deimos	:)	12:40
hiemanshu	Your order has been sent on 14.7.2011.	12:41
hiemanshu	Termana: finally :D	12:41
* SpeedEvil sighs.		12:41
DocScrutinizer	moo	12:42
SpeedEvil	meh	12:42
DocScrutinizer	baaah	12:42
hiemanshu	DocScrutinizer: now you can cancel your trip to HELL :D	12:43
DocScrutinizer	haha	12:43
deimos	awesom	12:44
DocScrutinizer	yours just began ;-)	12:44
deimos	ehe	12:44
hiemanshu	hah	12:44
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Jaffa	Morning, all	13:10
SpeedEvil	Mprnign	13:11
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Sicelo	jeez.. is the front camera just bad for everyone else, or just me? yay! i can hardly see myself. wonder how one's supposed to skype like that	13:24
Sickki	it's very dark and bad	13:27
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lardman	morning	13:38
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jhb	Sicelo: I remember reading something about drivers getting even more borked in some PR 1.? upgrade	13:39
jhb	Sicelo: not sure if thats the reason, but mine sucks as well	13:39
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MohammadAG	why the f hasn't my device shipped yet	13:55
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ruskie	you are not worthy ;)	13:56
trx	MohammadAG at least they didnt send your device to russia to ship it from there... just to add some extra 2500km :)	13:56
ruskie	gotta love such logistics	13:57
trx	yeap..	13:57
trx	someone from italy got it in 23 hours, and they send mine to russia :)	13:58
MohammadAG	trx, it wasn't even sent yet	13:59
MohammadAG	still at new order	13:59
trx	i started to wonder if they even know where Serbia is :/	13:59
trx	MohammadAG that sucks :/	13:59
ruskie	trx, hehe	13:59
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DocScrutinizer	moaning	14:12
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DocScrutinizer	trx: MohammadAG: Nokia may have to sort really nasty details for shipping to some countries. It was virtually impossible to ship N900 to Paul in Moscow just for example, and it took weeks to try, try again, try a third time, and finally fail.	14:14
divan	DocScrutinizer, they actually decided not to use DHL to ship devices to Russia and Ukraine due to problems with DHL there.	14:15
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, they already shipped an N950 to me	14:15
MohammadAG	err, N900	14:15
mgedmin	so, did anyone port fbreader to harmattan yet?	14:16
DocScrutinizer	yeah, but you don't know how long that took them to prepare all the paperwork. And it happened during a period of low workload, which clearly doesn't apply to this time	14:16
Sampppa_	Screenshot tool for Harmattan: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?p=26042	14:17
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: ShadowJK: weird hw defect in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1049858&postcount=43 ++ :: BSI value detected wrong :-o	14:18
* mgedmin finally figures out that "Nokia Account" is the same as "Ovi Account"		14:21
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, one of the guys in that thread sent me a pm the other day, I didn't have time to read the thread then though	14:23
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: indeed	14:24
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: so don't bother, it's lengthy and full of dead ends. But basically the finally spotted root cause in the post I linked	14:24
DocScrutinizer	estel made some rather odd assumptions about how bq27200 works, and there were a lot of interesting and some funny suggestions that all either were executed poorly or were dead ends from beginning. But they spotted the root cause, kudos for that	14:26
ShadowJK	btw, pnatd -> AT+CBC	14:27
ShadowJK	:D	14:27
DocScrutinizer	GOOOD point :-D	14:27
DocScrutinizer	time for 12648430 ☕	14:27
ShadowJK	(and it returns different values from bq and bme)	14:28
DocScrutinizer	sure, it has "another bme"	14:28
DocScrutinizer	+CBC: 0,52	14:29
DocScrutinizer	WTF?! .oO(???)	14:29
DocScrutinizer	whatever that's supposed to mean	14:30
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DocScrutinizer	if that's charge state [0..1] then it's extremely off	14:30
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mgedmin	hm, no sudo on a N950?	14:33
macmaN	devel-su	14:33
mgedmin	devel-su asks for a password	14:34
macmaN	rootme	14:34
mgedmin	:)	14:34
macmaN	i agree	14:34
mgedmin	hm, even root is not permitted to view dmesg	14:34
macmaN	yep	14:35
mgedmin	at least there's /var/log/syslog	14:36
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mgedmin	netstat doesn't support -p	14:40
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sivang	hmm	14:40
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, 0 = not charging, 52% SOC	14:40
sivang	hmm	14:40
sivang	so how do I reset the lock code? :)	14:40
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: extremely off, device is charging since 12h	14:41
sivang	I mean, the machine is not locked	14:41
sivang	but I seem to have forgotten my lock code	14:41
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, lol	14:41
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, and if you remove charger?	14:41
DocScrutinizer	mompls	14:41
sivang	mom ?	14:42
* DocScrutinizer heads to other room		14:42
sivang	hey hey	14:42
ShadowJK	moment	14:42
sivang	people	14:42
DocScrutinizer	~mompls	14:42
DocScrutinizer	hmmm	14:42
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DocScrutinizer	~mompl	14:42
infobot	somebody said mompl was a stupid short form for "moment please"	14:42
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: no change	14:43
ShadowJK	aw	14:44
ShadowJK	0,35 on mine (60% according to bq)	14:44
DocScrutinizer	did a 20s call ->same	14:44
mgedmin	it's hard to adjust to the CTRL key being on the opposite side of the keyboard, compared to a N900	14:45
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: indeed	14:45
DocScrutinizer	also some of the symbols again moved to wierd places	14:45
DocScrutinizer	also punctuation marks	14:45
mgedmin	oh cool < and > are now directly inputable!	14:46
mgedmin	explains why I find the location of / unusual	14:46
DocScrutinizer	I honestly want to make the kbd layouter type for his life, with blinded eyes	14:46
DocScrutinizer	well, we won't worry about all that, on N9 ;-P	14:47
mgedmin	a blind typing contest on a N9 would be very interesting	14:47
MohammadAG	hmm, does the N950 package have a wall charger?	14:48
mgedmin	my access point went crazy, I think	14:48
DocScrutinizer	I wonder if that's a exclusive N950 topic and thus a topic for #harmattan rather	14:48
deimos	MohammadAG, no !!!!	14:48
mgedmin	MohammadAG, no, just a micro-USB cable	14:48
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: nope	14:48
mgedmin	there's a #harmattan?	14:48
MohammadAG	I'm assuming the N900's charger works?	14:49
DocScrutinizer	yup	14:49
DocScrutinizer	flawlessly	14:49
deimos	DocScrutinizer, did u tried that = I don't want to burn it the 1st day :)	14:49
deimos	= = ?	14:49
DocScrutinizer	I'm doing that all the time	14:49
MohammadAG	technically it should work but I was wondering if it needs some more non standard shorting	14:49
mgedmin	I've two 12V to USB car adapters; neither of those charges my N900	14:50
DocScrutinizer	no, the standard nonstandard shorting is just fine, though yet untested if needed at all	14:50
SpeedEvil	odd	14:50
DocScrutinizer	yoh, SpeedEvil	14:51
SpeedEvil	(bsi)	14:51
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	14:51
* DocScrutinizer cranks up the schematics pdf another time		14:51
deimos	the n900 charger has an output of 5V and 1200 mA	14:51
DocScrutinizer	deimos: so what?	14:53
MohammadAG	<DocScrutinizer> no, the standard nonstandard shorting is just fine <-- epic sentence	14:53
ShadowJK	i thought it was standard shorting	14:54
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: BSI is pullup 120k to +2V5, so I gather the BSI R in battery is to GNS. What bothers me is: bat GND isn't digital GND	14:54
deimos	DocScrutinizer, for checking the usb car adapters	14:54
ShadowJK	?	14:54
deimos	surely they have different mA	14:54
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: kinda is, for Nokia at least	14:55
ShadowJK	Atleast at the time it was in the specs :)	14:55
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ShadowJK	deimos, if it's more than 350mA or so it'll work	14:55
DocScrutinizer	deimos: and your average car battery has 12V 250A	14:55
DocScrutinizer	doesn't mean it burns your car stereo that needs 12V@~2A	14:56
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deimos	ShadowJK, and why <mgedmin> chargers doesn't work ?	14:57
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DocScrutinizer	nfc	14:57
mgedmin	too low power?	14:57
mgedmin	lack of patience?	14:57
deimos	maybe intelliget chargers with face recon ? :)	14:58
mgedmin	my sister tried to charge her Sony Xperia with one of those, and it worked, but only after a couple of minutes	14:58
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ShadowJK	deimos, lots of shitty car chargers that only have a usb port on them lack the connection between D+ and D-	14:58
mgedmin	I never waited a couple of minutes, gave up after maybe 20 seconds	14:58
mgedmin	otoh an official Nokia adapter with the thin plug -> microusb converter works at once	14:59
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: yup exactly	14:59
DocScrutinizer	wallwart chargers as well	14:59
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: (thin plug -> microusb converter) CA-146A?	15:00
mgedmin	probably, I never keep track of those CA-xxx names	15:00
mgedmin	lemme google	15:00
DocScrutinizer	the one with the 3.5 and the 5mm barrel hole?	15:01
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: ^^^	15:01
mgedmin	yes	15:01
DocScrutinizer	yup	15:01
mgedmin	the one that's known to overheat and partially melt in certain occasions :)	15:01
DocScrutinizer	that's basically a whole autonomous charger circuit with a rather andom power supply via those barrel holes	15:02
DocScrutinizer	it works from ~3.6V .. some 6 or 8V without too much problems	15:03
DocScrutinizer	and surely has the Nokia mandatory D+- short	15:03
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mgedmin	that could explain everything	15:04
mgedmin	I'd optimistically assumed the D+- short was in an official USB charger spec, and all modern car adapters would have it	15:04
* DocScrutinizer digs thru his nest of cables and adaptors, to find a way to plug N950 to 5V without the D+- short		15:04
* mgedmin is trying to ssh into his N950 but is stumped by a password prompt		15:05
DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: it is a part of official specs - amost no device supports it though	15:05
DocScrutinizer	root rootme	15:05
sivang	foudn out the lock code	15:06
sivang	:)	15:06
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sivang	but with my memory not with the trick in TMO	15:06
sivang	seems the code s no longer stored in mtd1 ?	15:06
DocScrutinizer	it is	15:06
DocScrutinizer	afaik	15:06
sivang	interesting	15:06
deimos	I can ssh into 950 !	15:07
* sivang retires		15:07
sivang	deimos: sure you can	15:07
sivang	deimos: why would not you be able to?	15:07
sivang	it is a Maemo, after all	15:07
sivang	or a Harmattan for that matter	15:07
mgedmin	passwd -u user -> now I can ssh with my pubkey	15:07
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sivang	why would not yuou?	15:08
mgedmin	I wonder if that also leaves a hole where I can ssh in with no password or anything...	15:08
mgedmin	/etc/passwd has 'user::' instead of 'user:*:' that I expected	15:08
sivang	interesting	15:08
sivang	now it works, after I put the default lock code back	15:08
sivang	but befre that it was my social security number	15:08
sivang	and it did not show me the code wth the trick here:	15:08
sivang	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=37808&page=3	15:08
mgedmin	no, blank passwords do not work, whew	15:09
sivang	they are not blank!	15:09
sivang	:)	15:09
sivang	hey mgedmin , btw	15:09
sivang	beena while	15:09
* sivang wish for a N9		15:09
sivang	err	15:09
sivang	N950	15:09
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DocScrutinizer	mgedmin: sudo ssh user@localhost	15:09
DocScrutinizer	or rather devel-su; ssh user@loacalhost	15:10
DocScrutinizer	nm	15:10
sivang	devel-su ?	15:10
sivang	hrm	15:10
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sivang	what's that?	15:10
sivang	is there a channel for N950?	15:10
mgedmin	#harmattan	15:11
DocScrutinizer	the aegis flavour of su	15:11
sivang	heh	15:11
Mek	why not `devrootsh`?	15:11
sivang	gosh	15:11
sivang	doese it work in Mameo as well?	15:11
sivang	(N900)	15:11
Termana	DocScrutinizer, mmm mmm aegis flavour. my favourite	15:11
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sivang	Termana: bah	15:12
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DocScrutinizer	off topic: does anybody know of a way to disbale the sticky behaviour of alt-key for kbd-shortcuts, i.e. make alt;d;b != alt+(d;b), for KDE?	15:16
DocScrutinizer	sometimes I hit ALT and then type ahead. FUN :-/ Randomthings happen	15:17
MohammadAG	hmm, doesn't happen here	15:17
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Hurrian	tmo seems to be discussing a split from nokia	15:19
Hurrian	1/2 of the thread is discussing a name	15:19
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ShadowJK	a what?	15:22
ShadowJK	are they aware of that talk.maemo.org isn't run by Nokia..	15:22
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lardman	new laptop, need to install Linux now, what do people recommend?	15:42
lardman	bearing in mind it's a Dell Latitude and that I'm wanting to do dev for the N900 + Harmattan + Meego	15:42
kerio	debian!	15:44
lardman	hmm.....	15:44
kerio	DEBIAN!	15:44
* lardman wonders if selecting OpenSUSE based on the logo is justifiable ;)		15:44
DocScrutinizer	lardman: for harmattan dev you need ubuntu, for meego dev you need suse. Easy, isn't it? ;-P	15:45
kerio	don't you dare	15:45
lardman	Docscrutinizer: quite	15:45
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lardman	I don't need to use OpenSUSE for Meego though do I? I thought there were Ubuntu packages too?	15:46
DocScrutinizer	given the fact I managed to install maemo SB SDK on suse, I can't really recommend ubuntu	15:47
lardman	I'm getting annoyed with Ubuntu's multiscreen support, but that is not an issue for a laptop	15:47
lardman	suse is rpm based?	15:47
DocScrutinizer	yes	15:47
DocScrutinizer	though you don't care	15:48
lardman	I know the debian tools though, but I guess it will force me to learn something new and useful for meego	15:48
deimos	there are packages for ubuntu 10.10 not yet for 11.04, but you ca install all toolchains needed in QtSDK whatever linux distro you use	15:48
DocScrutinizer	for suse you don't learn anything new, as you use yast package manager	15:49
lardman	I need a builder though as not all my stuff is Qt based	15:49
lardman	DocScrutinizer: what about the maemo sdk, any issues there?	15:49
deimos	lardman, there is not the harmattan toolchain	15:50
DocScrutinizer	as mentioned I managed to install the maemo ( /harmattan) SDK on suse, and it's working ok there	15:50
DocScrutinizer	for harmattan there's a update that probably "just installs" on existing SB. The flasher-3.5.11 exists in two .deb for now, but no tarball	15:51
DocScrutinizer	I guess I can extract and install the binary from .deb manually, or use alien or what it's called	15:52
lardman	thanks Doc	15:52
DocScrutinizer	yw	15:52
lardman	I'll give it a go	15:52
lardman	one last Q	15:52
lardman	laptop has Windows installed, presumably the installer will alter the partiton sizes, etc., for me as Ubuntu would	15:52
DocScrutinizer	yes	15:53
DocScrutinizer	no problem	15:53
lardman	cool, one must check as some installation media (Meego netbook, hint hint) don't offer such options ;)	15:53
lardman	hmm, only 4.8MB/sec download	15:54
lardman	ah better, up to 6.8MB/s	15:54
* lardman goes to collect laptop in expectation that suse DVD will be downloaded when he gets back in a few min		15:55
DocScrutinizer	lardman: take all my prev staements with a grain of salt, as I hate ubuntu - it's too much like windows and too poorly "integrated" (whatever that means). MAybe you are better off with ubuntu nevertheless if you don't feel like that - esp I don't think suse is mandatory for meego development	15:56
DocScrutinizer	that's not reverting my prev advice, but to enable you to make your own decision	15:57
alterego	Strange how I only have 2G connection :/	15:57
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DocScrutinizer	alterego: where, why, on what?	15:59
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alterego	2G, at home, on my N950	16:00
alterego	I should get 3G ..	16:00
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DocScrutinizer	alterego: sounds like you better post those random N950 bits on #harmattan , as then there won't be such questions as mine	16:03
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lardman	DocScrutinizer: thanks for the caveats, another of my office workers is happy with suse, and it also has a nice logo so I'll give it a go :)	16:06
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DocScrutinizer	I think suse is pretty good	16:07
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DocScrutinizer	just one bad thing: you forget how to do things like user account management, firewall admin, all that stuff the classic cmdline way. Yast is too easy so you just use it and forget about adduser and all that	16:08
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* lardman wonders what a 512e hdd is		16:09
lardman	ah, 4KB sectors but it pretends to have 512B sectors	16:12
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DocScrutinizer	eeeew that crap	16:26
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rm_work	GAN900 / GeneralAntilles: shipped :P	16:40
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hiemanshu	GeneralAntilles: sent yet?	16:45
hiemanshu	rm_work: shipped today?	16:46
rm_work	hiemanshu: yes, though no DHL email yet	16:46
rm_work	at 12:00 finnish time	16:46
rm_work	14.7.2011 12:44	16:46
hiemanshu	rm_work: ah, I think they will give you the DHL number around 6-ish .fi time	16:46
rm_work	what time is it there now	16:46
hiemanshu	rm_work: around 4:45	16:47
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DocScrutinizer	rm_work: you might want to /join #harmattan	16:56
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DocScrutinizer	rm_work: FYI: it seems DHL can not send mail to anybody, as they don't even know your email addr. The mail with tracking number always is sent by xxx.yyy@nokia.com	16:57
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rm_work	DocScrutinizer: >_> #harmattan... >_>	16:59
rm_work	Docscrutinizer: and well, yes, by "DHL email" i just meant the email with the DHL tracking info, whoever it is from	16:59
hiemanshu	DocScrutinizer: I expect that arrives last .fi time right? can you give me the time you got yours?	17:00
hiemanshu	so we know when to send an email	17:00
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DocScrutinizer	hiemanshu: I'm discussing N950 specific topics on #harmattan	17:01
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DocScrutinizer	the S/N for "normal" N900 (and diablo...) users on this chan is poor enough since a week	17:02
MohammadAG	sigh	17:02
MohammadAG	not shipped yet for me	17:03
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fiferboy	I got the tracking email at around 8:30 EST	17:29
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GAN900	rm_work, yes.	18:35
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pavi	Is there no photo uploading tool to Gallery2 in maemo ?	19:00
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nid0	https://garage.maemo.org/projects/g2-sharing	19:04
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pavi	ok	19:07
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rm_work	yeah got my shipping email ... erm, apparently earlier somehow	19:14
rm_work	but missed it	19:14
rm_work	strange	19:14
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hiemanshu	rm_work: you got yours?	19:18
* hiemanshu hasn't got one yet		19:18
rm_work	yeah with DHL tracking number	19:18
rm_work	got it like 4 hours ago almost	19:18
hiemanshu	nothing for me yet	19:18
rm_work	apparently it went to a different email	19:18
rm_work	i have some sort of mismatch going on	19:18
hiemanshu	hah	19:18
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hiemanshu	I haven't got mine, I shoudl email and ask for one	19:19
rm_work	order sent email: 4:45am my time; tracking DHL email: 7:38am my time	19:19
rm_work	just wait a bit i'd say	19:19
rm_work	interesting tho, i have no idea estimated delivery time	19:20
rm_work	GAN900: yes to -- yours shipped?	19:20
hiemanshu	rm_work: and your current time?	19:21
rm_work	i'm CDT	19:22
rm_work	it's 11:22am right now	19:22
hiemanshu	ah ok	19:22
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hiemanshu	I'll need it to intercept the package as I am in the middle of moving houses	19:22
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rm_work	lol	19:23
GAN900	rm_work, yes.	19:23
rm_work	GAN900: cool, wonder if all of them have shipped now? this would be the "one week" period they stated	19:24
rm_work	anyone's order not ship yet?	19:24
hiemanshu	rm_work: Termana for example	19:24
rm_work	hrm ok	19:25
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rm_work	bbl, lunch :P	19:28
wazd	Any 3D-modelling guru's in here? :P	19:29
wazd	gurus*	19:29
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deimos	with maya ?	19:30
wazd	anything :)	19:30
wazd	anything that's able to produce a landscape :)	19:30
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deimos	I used a lot maya :)	19:31
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wazd	deimos: have some free time to help with OSS project? :)	19:31
deimos	well, now I have to study QML :) , but I can swap here and there :)	19:32
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* mgedmin appreciated the ability to ask for SMS announcements about various DHL delivery checkpoints		19:42
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RST38h	http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/07/fling-mini-joystick-for-smartphones-1310589283.jpg	19:47
RST38h	Yeaaaah	19:47
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Noobmonk3y	lol	19:51
GeneralAntilles	It's amazing the crap people churn out for iOS devices.	19:53
Noobmonk3y	lol general....	19:56
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luke-jr	the *nix/Windows security model is flawed	20:02
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RST38h	"Living above the 50N latitude, it is amusing to observe the next developing pandemia of cholera online..."	21:21
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Venemo	achipa, are there any Qt Quick components for Fremantle?	21:22
fiferboy	Venemo: I am almost positive there aren't any right now	21:23
achipa	Venemo: nope	21:23
fiferboy	But I would be interested in knowing if there are any that will be forthcoming	21:23
fiferboy	achipa: Do you know if there are any plans?	21:23
achipa	(if you mean Fremantle-style components)	21:23
achipa	fiferboy: no plans, Fremantle is dead as a doornail	21:24
fiferboy	I guess the community could step in, though	21:24
Venemo	achipa, any components at all? maybe desktop components would work on it?	21:24
achipa	sure, the custom branch should work	21:25
achipa	I think kate or antonio packaged it	21:25
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fiferboy	achipa: Is that branch likely to be officially supported over time?	21:25
fiferboy	I think it is just experimental currently	21:25
achipa	fiferboy: could, and for most stuff, it would be fairly easy, except for maybe the fancy pickers...	21:26
Venemo	so, for the time being, I may have to keep the QWidget-based GUI for Fremantle?	21:26
achipa	fiferboy: not sure, ask the trolls	21:26
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achipa	but the point is, there is not really such a thing as officially supported	21:26
fiferboy	achipa: Yeah, but pickers are actually easier to implement in QML than Qt (in my experience)	21:26
DocScrutinizer	achipa: fremantle is sucked out for profit, now it may start the real life	21:26
Venemo	lol DocScrutinizer	21:27
achipa	fiferboy: yes, they were HARD to implement in Qt. QML is a lot easier, but still not trivial, especially in thing which require hildon integration	21:27
DocScrutinizer	even while Nokia kept the parts they tought will stop this	21:27
achipa	fiferboy: read, the tough part is the HIM stuff	21:27
fiferboy	achipa: I don't doubt that. I never dug around in the HIM/Qt interaction code	21:28
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achipa	fiferboy: and the thing is that most of the effects (background blur, etc) is done on the WM level (again, something that would be something trivial with a shadereffect, but if you have to go to the system, ugh)	21:29
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DocScrutinizer	achipa: fremantle is linux, linux is FOSS. You never know when a FOSS project is dead - definitely it isn't as long as hundered contribute and thousands or even 100.000s use it	21:31
achipa	so for stuff like pushbuttons, lists, etc, shouldn't be hard, but dialogs, pickers, input method funk... that's a different story	21:31
DocScrutinizer	and even while everybody incl Nokia might think fremantle is owned by Nokia, in fact it is not	21:32
achipa	DocScrutinizer: the only hardware capable running is not produced for months now	21:32
achipa	sure, cordia et al, but then we're not talking about Fremantle	21:32
fiferboy	achipa: I was around the fringes of the original community Qt port, and the styling did look pretty easy (IIRC just pulled from the Gtk stlye) but there was a lot of system witchcraft that happened too	21:32
achipa	fiferboy: if you mean the Diablo 4.5 port, yeah, but in those days (functionally) it wasn't as far from the desktop (i.e. menus, status bars, etc)...	21:34
DocScrutinizer	so what? the VW Kaefer isn't built anymore since what? 30 years? only in Mexico a decade longer? I bet you will hear loud protest calling the community around it dead	21:34
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fiferboy	achipa: True	21:35
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wazd_	fiferboy: heya :)	21:35
wazd_	fiferboy: already got the device? :P	21:35
fiferboy	wazd_: Hi, how's things?	21:35
fiferboy	wazd_: No, it is leaving Finland around now	21:35
achipa	DocScrutinizer: sure, it's just that I don't see the manpower	21:35
wazd_	fiferboy: sad, thanks to russian customs :)	21:35
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fiferboy	wazd_: Has yours been confiscated?	21:36
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wazd_	fiferboy: no, but to avoid it Nokia had to send it with someone	21:37
achipa	DocScrutinizer: porting Qt4.7 to Diablo was trivial. Nobody did it. Fremantle is still on 4.7.0, even with the CSSU... and if you can't must the community support for something as important as Qt, then I'm somewhat skeptical of the viability...	21:37
wazd_	fiferboy: so it's gonnabe a looong journey :)	21:37
DocScrutinizer	achipa: I'm criticizing the diction. You may say fremantle won't have a next official release version anytime (soon). It's definitely not dead (yet) though	21:37
achipa	wazd_: coming on raindeer-sleds from Finland ? :)	21:37
fiferboy	wazd_: Oh yeah, I heard they were being "hard couriered" to Russia	21:37
DocScrutinizer	achipa: and it hurts those who care hearing such statements	21:37
achipa	DocScrutinizer: okay, okay, let's not get bogged down in terminology	21:37
achipa	SORRY :)	21:38
achipa	nhf	21:38
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wazd_	achipa: yep, something like that :)	21:38
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DocScrutinizer	and tbh I don't see any successor to take over	21:39
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DocScrutinizer	I don't think harmattan will have appeal to the same target group	21:40
achipa	harmattan is... special	21:40
DocScrutinizer	meegoCE is yet to get on par, usability wise	21:40
DocScrutinizer	no matter on which handheld	21:41
achipa	the question is of course what do you consider the "essence" of Fremantle	21:41
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DocScrutinizer	the desktop feeling in a nutshell	21:41
achipa	i.e. is it Hildon, the desktop, etc	21:41
DocScrutinizer	the idea that I could run KDE on that thing any time	21:42
achipa	well... dunno. I would say that's quite subjective, I didn't find harmattan that far in that regard (if a little more attention was put in the landscape stuff)	21:43
achipa	then again, I found Fremantle's three-layer navigation quite confusing in the beginning	21:43
frals	you could probably run KDE on harmattan as well	21:43
DocScrutinizer	starts with the missing buttons of any kind, and the implications this has on the entire UX design	21:43
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achipa	oh, we hatesss buttonssss :)	21:44
achipa	Honestly, I'm surprised the volume button(s) survived	21:44
DocScrutinizer	indeed	21:44
frals	butchering the camera key made me sad panda :(	21:45
DocScrutinizer	know what? all my nightshots with the cam were crap - shakey due to taping the screen	21:45
ruskie	hahahaha	21:45
achipa	DocScrutinizer: not disagreeing :)	21:46
achipa	personally I would love to have the same delay option my cam has - press +2 sec	21:46
achipa	and that's not rocket science	21:46
DocScrutinizer	actually a (botchy) workaround that's feasible	21:47
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achipa	frals: that camkey is coming back... it's a requirement for the WP7 HW spec	21:48
* achipa ducks		21:48
DocScrutinizer	yesterday I pondered a little fancy and writing a mail with a lengthy stricly hw-centric review, with points like these. But then again, meh, the device will never get sold	21:48
DocScrutinizer	even less reworked	21:48
frals	achipa: :(	21:49
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DocScrutinizer	achipa: it was a really smart move of Nokia if they'd look up in wikipedia what's a linux BSP, and then shipp all their phones with such a package	21:50
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DocScrutinizer	no matter what's the primary OS	21:51
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DocScrutinizer	fame and additional sales for almost free	21:52
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achipa	geez... why libstdc++.so.5... WHYYYY	21:52
ruskie	or atleast offer downloads	21:52
DocScrutinizer	ruskie: would make no difference, but throving in a mini-CD with the linux BSP was a mega advertisement effect	21:53
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DocScrutinizer	throwing even	21:54
DocScrutinizer	a download offer goes unnoticed in any review - the CD will get mentioned on each newspaper next to the name of the new models	21:56
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DocScrutinizer	"in times where every technically skilled user has the knowledge that 20 years ago was to be found only on highly specialized IT experts, Nokia has decided to open up the option to build your very own linux based OS for your phone, by shipping every model with the needed special driver CD that allows development for the phone like you're used to it for the standard linux desktop"	21:59
DocScrutinizer	no promises, no warranty, no hassle - just happy nerds and good public relations	22:01
DocScrutinizer	and setting up a basic BSP is sth the EE dpmt has to do anyway, for the OS sw dudes	22:01
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DocScrutinizer	just streamline that a bit, and make the ¼²¼²ð²²¹ß¹**## lawyers look into it and give their placet	22:03
DocScrutinizer	burn on a mini CD and prepare the story for the press	22:04
DocScrutinizer	Nokia still thinks they need to sell complete systems, while it seems to me they'd be better off producing hardware, strictly hardware only	22:05
DocScrutinizer	buy the WP7 from M$, and give community a BSP	22:06
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DocScrutinizer	Nokia knows to build good hw	22:06
DocScrutinizer	I'm not all that convinced Nokia understood about FOSS and the way it works	22:07
GAN900	Nokia as a giant blob doesn't necessarily mean anything	22:09
DocScrutinizer	the giant blob has coherence, and a nucleus like an amoeba that somewhat decides for some aspects of begaviour of the whole blob	22:10
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DocScrutinizer	the firs PCs came with the OS bundled, all from one hand and that was IBM. Nowadays no board manufacturer and not even many system integrators consider it mandatory to ship any OS with their product. Sure you can get a WIN7 or whatever with your Dell PC, but you can as well opt for Linux or bare bones	22:16
GeneralAntilles	I don't think phones are there yet for the overwhelming majority of consumers.	22:17
DocScrutinizer	nah, but it doesn't hurt to start offering it	22:17
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DocScrutinizer	PCs aren't there for most customers as well - >90% will get a all-in-one package	22:18
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DocScrutinizer	anyway how about Nokia this one time were the first to offer it, rather than always catching up with leaders of the trend	22:19
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DocScrutinizer	I for one would prefer to see this coming from and for Nokia rather than e.g HTC or Samsung	22:23
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DocScrutinizer	but then you bet the 50%(?) sw and UX and usability and services guys at nokia aren't exactly enthusiastic about such a concept	22:26
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SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: Try to get a laptop in many places without windows.	22:33
Jaffa	Ev'ning	22:36
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, finally shipped. ;)	22:38
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Yay	22:38
hiemanshu	GeneralAntilles: yay	22:38
hiemanshu	Jaffa: mine too :P	22:38
hiemanshu	Jaffa: now you rest in peace and dont have to worry about me coming to steal yours :P	22:38
hiemanshu	+can	22:38
hiemanshu	wait, that is more for DocScrutinizer than you :P	22:39
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MohammadAG	does the DC-6 work with the N900?	23:11
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DocScrutinizer	what is DC-6?	23:13
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MohammadAG	Nokia DC-6 car charger DocScrutinizer	23:16
DocScrutinizer	well, most probably it should work then	23:17
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/car-solutions/car-accessories/nokia-micro-usb-car-charger-dc-6/compatibility	23:19
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javispedro	moo.	23:24
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lbt	Jaffa: do you know how to work around : "couldn't open page : ssl handshake failed"	23:45
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Jaffa	lbt: thiago was saying on #meego that it's a Qt 4.7 bug.	23:58
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