IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-07-14

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Atariiis there anywhere to search to find which repo an app is in?00:01
DocScrutinizerwell, the sky wasn't exacly clear blue, so maybe GPS signal wasn't the best nevertheless00:01
DocScrutinizerAtarii: I once thought I could thell from apt-cache policy00:02
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Atariifrom repos I don't have I mean00:02
trumeeDocScrutinizer: worse than N900?00:02
Atariilike a web interface?00:02
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DocScrutinizertrumee: like N900 in the early days00:02
trumeeDocScrutinizer: was that a hw or sw issue?00:03
DocScrutinizeron N900? probably a cmt-firmware issue00:03
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DocScrutinizershould help00:04
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Atariicheers :)00:05
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trumeeDocScrutinizer: Terminated gets triggered even on an incoming missed call00:06
trumeeDocScrutinizer: oh well. life cannot be perfect00:06
DocScrutinizertrumee: maybe you actually need to keep track of established calls and type of call established00:07
trumeeDocScrutinizer: yes, perhaps.00:07
DocScrutinizertrumee: but yeah, it gets triggered for end of *all* cmt calls00:08
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DocScrutinizerwhere call==session here, and session == all that makes modem act as a phone00:08
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holmesIIIhi, i finally cal init HAL and get the battery information00:09
DocScrutinizerexcept SMS I hope, and USSD00:09
trumeeDocScrutinizer: yes need to try out SMS. i dont use USSD00:10
DocScrutinizera session in call context is starting with sending the "invite" to initiate a call, or inbound "invite", and ends when call is terminated either way00:10
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holmesIIIjust one question: Im trying to log the battery information every second/minitus. but i found, if the screen is off, then the battery information will remain the same for a long time, but if i click the screen and make it light, then the battery information will change immediately.00:10
DocScrutinizertrumee: It'd be great if you try USSD nevertheless00:11
holmesIIIcan anybody tell me why?00:11
trumeeDocScrutinizer: never used it before, give me a command?00:11
DocScrutinizertrumee: it's not really hard to send a *111#00:11
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DocScrutinizeror *555#00:11
trumeeok, i get a Request Not completed + Popup doesnt appear00:12
holmesIIhi, Docscrutinizer, help!!00:12
trumeeDocScrutinizer: so all good i suppose00:12
DocScrutinizeryou'll receive an error reply usually, but that's a rather valid USSD anyway00:12
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vdvif i do qchroot image dir, some mounts are done behind the scene, those mounts are not undo if i leave chroot, isn't there any command to "cleanup" after leaving chroot?00:13
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DocScrutinizerholmesII: I told you that your plans are useless, battery info doesn't change like 1/second, not even once per minute00:14
holmesIIi know, it won't change so quick. I just want to know, if i get the battery info from HAL. is that the most direct information I can get?00:15
DocScrutinizerthis is done for saving battery, as you don't want to run CPU all the time to monitor how battery gets eaten by monitoring battery - that's *nonsense*00:15
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DocScrutinizerholmesII: sorry, I really can't answer your extremely generic questions - I have no idea what you want to do, what you finally want to achieve. There's a lot of info at various rates, and each of them has a different meaning. Asking for "reading out battery info the fastest possible way" just sounds like artificial nonsense to me00:17
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holmesIIi don't want to read the battery in a fast way. I just want to log the info, maybe 1 second a time, maybe 1 minute, maybe 1 hour a time. it doesn't matter how fast i log it.00:18
DocScrutinizerI'm not asking "how can I determine my body size 10 times per second?" - dunno if that's a good example00:18
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holmesIIthe thing isi want to confirm if i just run my logger program and leave the phone there.  the screen will shut off the light few seconds later. I just wonder, in that case, my programm running in the background will get the current battery capacity exactly?00:20
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DocScrutinizerholmesII: well there's bme, the battery management entity. The info in hal about charge state is origin bme. bme is known to be a sucker and often lie about battery capacity, and probably it doesn't update hal capacity when there are "certain conditions" that make it likely nobody is interested in actual values. locked screen being one of those "certain conditions"00:22
holmesIIright now, i am running my logger program and log the battery capacity every second, i also print out the result in terminal. i connect it by SSH. and see the current capacity stay in 529mha for a very long time.00:22
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DocScrutinizeryes, known "problem" with bme00:22
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holmesIIi got it. that's why now i click the screen and the battery capacity is turn to 51300:23
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DocScrutinizercheck out this script:
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holmesIIwhat does that script for?00:24
DocScrutinizerit directly reads out the hardware, and sometimes the charge percentage isn't all that bad - sometimes it's off though esp when CI=100:24
DocScrutinizerwhat always is correct though are the values for voltage of cell, and current in/out of cell00:25
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holmesIIyes, i need the current in/out information00:25
DocScrutinizeryou'll need i2ctools package for that00:25
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* trumee wonders why pixelpipe was pulled out of ovi store.00:26
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trumeeit was a useful sharing plugin00:26
DocScrutinizerholmesII: even this script doesn't make any sense to run more frequently than every 5s, as that's the window raster of the hw probing00:27
DocScrutinizeryou can run it with a parameter that gives a loop time in seconds00:28
DocScrutinizerlike 3000:28
DocScrutinizerfor one reading every 30s00:28
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holmesIIi made it chmod 777 bq27200.sh00:28
holmesIIhowever, i can't run it in my N90000:29
DocScrutinizerif you run it every 5s, you basically cover the full time 100%, as it shows the average values for the last completed 5.12s window00:29
holmesIIit said /bin/sh: can't open00:29
DocScrutinizerholmesII: toldya you need i2ctools package installed00:29
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holmesIIcan't find it when i try apt-get install i2ctools00:30
DocScrutinizermaybe you need to use full pathname to script, place it in a location that your $PATH variable lists as valid location for executables, or add the dir where you placed it to $PATH00:30
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DocScrutinizeri2ctools is in extras-devel repo afaik00:31
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Sicelo~seen robbiethe1st00:32
DocScrutinizer  helps a lot00:32
holmesIIwell, if i keep the screen light on, can i get the battery up-to-date information00:33
infobotrobbiethe1st <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 3d 9h 49m 42s ago, saying: 'Facebook = evil'.00:33
DocScrutinizerholmesII: don't you think this is an exceptionally silly question?00:35
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holmesIIi really don't know. i am so sorry.00:35
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DocScrutinizerwhat's the use in monitoring battery when you keep screen on which is knows to be the hugest power-hog after 3G-data and will eat battery in max 6h. I don't need to monitor battery to tell you it won't last any longer than 6h when you keep screen backlight on00:36
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DocScrutinizerso we again are at the point where I completely fail to understand WHY you are doing all this00:38
DocScrutinizerit makes no sense to me00:38
holmesIIi have another program and i need to know how fast that program consume the battery.00:38
holmesIImake a compare00:38
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DocScrutinizerand I have a hard time giving advice for sth that makes no sense, just as I can't decide what *is* a good advice when I don't know what's the purpose00:39
holmesIIthat's why i need to write a logger00:39
DocScrutinizerok, you want to know how much power $tandom-acme-program is using? use the script I gave you, it's the best for that purpose00:40
Sicelothanks for that link DocScrutinizer, saved me from making a donkey of myself00:41
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DocScrutinizercheck this  and that
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DocScrutinizerSicelo: which link?00:42
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Sicelopackage search.. i was needing /lib/libac1.s0.1 and /lib/ for backupmenu, hence the highlighting to robbiethe1st00:44
holmesIIthank you so much! If you got my idea early, you could saved me few days ago.00:44
DocScrutinizerholmesII: it's been you who was kinda non-verbous about your idea. You always asked about details without mentioning what you are doing. This is prone to fail00:46
DocScrutinizera good read for next weekend:00:46
infoboti heard question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first:
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holmesIIi can run now, but i can't run, it said /bin/sh can't open01:11
holmesIIi already installed i2ctools01:11
DocScrutinizerforget my script at user:joerg, the simplified script at is perfect for your purpose01:12
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holmesIIyes. thanks. please let me know what's the meaning of these three?  NAC CACD CACT01:20
holmesIItheirs resutls seem the same. but i don't know what's that.01:20
holmesIIthe unit is mhA, those three report the same number. but they are not the same of battery.reporting.current01:21
javispedrothank god the nfs module is whitelisted by aegis01:23
holmesIIi will come back later. please let me know the meaning of NAC CACD CACT and the relathionship between those three and battery.reporting.current . Thanks!!01:23
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jonwilbah, still cant figure out how to get GDB to attach to hildon-desktop :(02:42
javispedroyou will see two hildon-desktop processes02:43
javispedroone is the launcher stub02:43
javispedrouse the second one02:43
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jonwilthanks, that seems to work02:52
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jonwilgod GDB sucks for debugging a shared library loaded with dlopen()02:59
javispedrotechnically it should work out of the box02:59
jonwilIts too hard to find out where in memory the library ended up :(02:59
jonwilI cant get gdb to recognize where the library loaded03:00
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DocScrutinizerjonwil: run the main executable loading this lib, until it calls some lib function?03:08
jonwilif you know how I can attach to hildon-desktop before its loaded any plugins, that would be nice to know :P03:08
jonwilbut I dont think either xterm or ssh is able to run at that point in time :P03:09
hawai`iNeigh impossible.03:09
hawai`iYou might be able to kick the watchdog, kill it using dsmetool and then spawn it again inside gdb03:10
DocScrutinizervery very very simple: replace the line in upstart script (or whatever) saying "hildon-desktop" by "gdb(-remote) hildon-desktop"03:10
* javispedro thinks gdb has had this feature for ages, and in fact I remember using it even on the older N900 arm version..03:10
jonwilI used info sharedlibrary which lists some libraries03:11
jonwilbut doesnt list the ones opened with dlopebn03:11
jonwilsince they were opened before gdb ran03:11
DocScrutinizer"older N900 arm version" - what's that?03:11
jonwilI dont think changing the hildon-desktop startup script will help since gdb will require user input at that point, input that I cant provide as there is no terminal03:12
javispedrojonwil: that does not work that way, it's actually easier to read the current loaded objects _after_ dlopen has been called03:12
jonwiloh ok03:12
DocScrutinizerthat's where the "remote" bit comes in03:12
javispedroit's just a linked list03:12
jonwilso how come info sharedlibraries doesnt display them then?03:13
javispedroso no idea why it does not work on hd03:13
javispedromaybe lack of "-g"?03:13
javispedroyou can build h-d with -g03:13
javispedroand then either replace your device's03:13
javispedroor just touch /etc/no_lg_reboots to be able to kill stock h-d.03:14
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro disclosing some if his very special magic curses ?03:14
javispedrobut this is very old stuff03:15
javispedrofrom 770 days =)03:15
DocScrutinizeryeah, very special secret magic03:15
jonwilas for changing the init script, that wont work since it wont be attaching gdb to the second h-d process, the one that is spawned via maemo-launcher03:15
DocScrutinizernever ever heard about  /etc/no_lg_reboots03:15
hawai`iWhy can't you respawn it from within gdb?03:15
javispedrolg means lifeguard iirc.03:16
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DocScrutinizerjonwil: right03:16
hawai`iUse dsmetool to kill it and then exec within gdb.03:16
jonwilok, how do I do that with dsmetool? and how do I exec within gdb?03:17
DocScrutinizerjonwil: unless yiu use that magic -f(?) for follow-forked-processes03:17
* javispedro suggest building "-g" h-d, makes things much easier...03:17
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jonwilgdbserver doesn't support that -f option03:18
jonwilnor does gdb03:18
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hawai`iEither way, you'll need lifeguards turned off -> might as well simply rebuild hildon-desktop as per javispedro.03:18
jonwilat least not the binaries I have03:18
DocScrutinizerfirst of all, take dsmetool out of the equation, for this edit upstart script03:18
hawai`iWhat would be the purpose of that?03:18
DocScrutinizerX doesn't *need* to be run under dsme supervision03:19
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jonwilso if I edit the upstart script, that will remove the need to fiddle with the watchdog bits?03:19
DocScrutinizerand it's actually dsme that reboots when X process quits, I guess03:19
hawai`iWhy would you muck with upstart when you an safely kill and restart it "preattached"?03:19
jonwilpreattaching it wont work since the gdb I have doesnt support -f03:20
javispedrofiddle with the watchdog?03:20
javispedrowhat's so hard about touching a file in /etc? =)03:20
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jonwilso I cant get it to attach to the other process, the one started by maemo-launcher03:20
jonwilso will any of these ideas actually help me?03:21
jonwilgiven the lack of -f03:21
jonwiland inabillity to attach to the actual hildon-desktop process and not the stub03:21
javispedroWhat I would do: build h-d with -g. touch /etc/no_lg_reboots. upload built h-d to device. killall hildon-desktop. run and attach.03:21
javispedrobecause the reason dso tracking does not work is most probably lack of -g03:22
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jonwilexcept that I dont have a clue how to build hildon-desktop03:22
DocScrutinizerforget all my nonsesne comments03:22
javispedroapt-get source hildon-desktop on ARMEL sdk03:22
javispedroapt-get build-dep hildon-desktop03:22
javispedroenter hildon-desktop-* folder03:23
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javispedrodpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot03:23
javispedrothe binary will be around src/03:23
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DocScrutinizerthere is cruft and black magic like /usr/bin/hildon-startup-progress in etc/events.d/03:23
hawai`iUh. gdb 'set follow-fork-mode'03:23
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javispedroin fact, if you build it, you can get the standalone executable -- without launcher magic.03:23
DocScrutinizerhawai`i: that's what I meant by -f03:23
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hawai`iAnd that doesn't work, inconjuction with set detach-on-fork, why?03:24
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jonwilhow do I make sure that dpkg-buildpackage builds hildon-desktop with -g?03:24
javispedroit is always built with -g, however debian strips it during package creating03:25
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hawai`iThat will give gdb control over all subsequently forked processes03:25
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javispedroso if you get the executable from src/ instead of using the created package, you will be fine.03:25
jonwiloh ok03:25
jonwilsounds good03:25
javispedrowhat I do not remember at the moment is how relatively easy is to get a standalone executable (instead of .launch stuff)03:26
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javispedrobtw launch stuff you can invoke with maemo-summoner03:26
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javispedrolot of stuff to understand here, but fortunately this is mostly known -- lots of h-d hackers around03:28
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jonwilI imagine I am not the first guy who wants to run a debugger on a hildon-desktop status bar gizmo plugin :)03:29
DocScrutinizeryou bet03:29
DocScrutinizeracme sigsegv gizmo plugin03:30
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javispedroacme sigsegv plugin =)03:30
DocScrutinizeron wiki, under tools section, there was a strace incantation that runs *all* processes on the system under strace03:30
DocScrutinizerbut I guess it also attaches late03:31
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villagerjonwil: also you can usually set the environment variable DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip during package build in order to make the .deb contain unstripped binaries03:32
jonwilok, now running dpkg-buildpackage03:32
* DocScrutinizer ponders to bookmark the chanlog of -like- an hour ago03:33
DocScrutinizerbest most terse tutorial ever03:34
DocScrutinizerjavispedro spitting out one line that saves you 5h googling and reading thru 50 pages manual and nagedinag03:35
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DocScrutinizermere platinum03:35
javispedroremember the original problem was gdb not reading dlopen'd dsos03:36
javispedroand that's not solved yet =)03:36
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jonwillets hope building hildon-desktop with -G can help03:39
DocScrutinizerI wonder if dlopen() loaded libs are identical to the ones that get loaderlinked03:40
DocScrutinizerin the memory program text03:41
DocScrutinizere.g. gbd could go for the list of linked libs in ELF03:41
javispedrothat's how it works -- or at least how I think it wors03:42
javispedrothere's a global linked list with its head on a well-known symbol03:42
javispedroit contains pointers to ELF headers of all loaded images03:42
javispedrobe it executables or shared objects03:42
DocScrutinizeraaah, ok then03:43
DocScrutinizerthat list isn't sttaic :-)03:43
DocScrutinizerI was concerned gdb could look directly to the static list of libs as founf in binaries ELF03:44
javispedrofor some reason I know how this works on MacOS X better than ELF =)03:44
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: I was concerned gdb could look directly to the static list of libs as founf in executable's ELF03:44
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jonwilok, I rebuilt h-d now and other than some errors about signatures, it seems to have worked03:46
DocScrutinizerbut anyway, all the libs' functions have to show up on the list of known symbols eventually, and that's the linked list you meant, I guess03:46
jonwilok, I see a file called hildon-desktop in the /src folder03:47
jonwilis that the one I want?03:47
javispedrorun file on it, see if its a dso, symlink or plain executable03:47
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* DocScrutinizer yawns and mumbles "bookmarked.... ... too late..."03:48
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jonwilok, file says "ELF 32-bit LSB shared object,. ARM"03:48
javispedrodso, ah well.03:48
jonwilso what do I need to do?03:49
javispedroyou should be able to run this via "maemo-summoner path/to/this/file"03:49
jonwilnow that I have h-d built?03:49
jonwilok, sounds good03:49
javispedroso, "gdb --args maemo-summoner /a/b"03:49
jonwilok, so what do I do to properly kill the old h-d process without tripping a reboot?03:50
DocScrutinizer4.3. dlsym()
javispedrotouch /etc/no_lg_reboots and kill it03:50
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gn00bfinally got openoffice to compile in less than an hour.  Wed Jul 13 11:19:39 2011 >>> app-office/openoffice-3.2.1-r1 merge time: 55 minutes and 33 seconds.03:50
jonwilok, that didnt work03:51
javispedrogn00b: clearly, your build was incomplete, that's impossible.03:51
jonwilI did touch /etc/no_lg_reboots03:51
jonwilthen killall hildon-dekstop03:51
jonwilbut it just got restarted (presumably by dsme)03:51
gn00bi7 950 12gb ram03:51
jonwilI suspect I need to use dsmetool to kill it03:51
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jonwilideas anyone?03:52
RiDhello :)03:52
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jonwildoing any kind of debugging on any of the "critical" processes such as hildon-desktop, mce etc is a pain in the ass03:53
RiDI am a pain in the ass too, believe me03:54
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javispedrojonwil: /etc/init.d/hildon-desktop stop03:56
javispedrogn00b: still impossibe, OOo always automatically enlarges to fill all available cores and disk space03:57
javispedroI still remember when building it just required 2 GiB...03:57
RiDhouston, I got a problem! My battery life is really low: it doesn't last one day IDLE. And there's nothing stressing the CPU. It just happened, after i left the fone turned off 4 days03:57
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SpeedEvilWhat applications have you got installed?03:58
SpeedEvilAnything that polls the network?03:58
RiDnope, nothing.03:58
RiDI mean, every application that polls the network is in "manual" mode03:58
DocScrutinizerRiD: chech ifconfig to see traffic you didn't know about. If there is any, use tshark to see what exactly it is. use pwertop to find hidden CPU hogs. If nothing helps, switch down modem completely - after all your carrier could allow floodpinging your IP, and that wouldn't even show up as traffic on your ifconfig output is some cases04:01
jonwilok, its NOT hildon-desktop that I need to debug, its hildon-home04:01
jonwilno wonder things arent working04:01
jonwilaha, NOW I see the library I want in the library list04:03
DocScrutinizerjonwil: well, now you've built hildon-desktop - isn't this amking you feel better alrady ;-)04:04
DocScrutinizerDARN I can't type anymore04:04
DocScrutinizeranyway many thanks. You made javispedro do a lesson hour that's better than all bookreading04:05
DocScrutinizerof course many thanks to you javispedro as well, for that lesson04:06
SpeedEvilAbout what - should I read backscroll?04:06
DocScrutinizerhow to build and gdb $random-program04:06
javispedrodunno, I just commented on how I used to do build and test my h-d patches =)04:07
DocScrutinizerhere: hilden-desktop04:07
RiDDocScrutinizer what should i exactly search in ifconfig? in "lo" it shows  RX bytes:36818 (35.9 KiB)  TX bytes:36818 (35.9 KiB),etc. everything seems normal, wlan is using a bit more (obviously, I'm connected to my home wifi)04:08
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SpeedEvilalso - powertop04:08
SpeedEvilGet screen04:08
jonwilbtw, there are things that will take longer to build than OO.o04:08
jonwilbuilding gcc is an excercise in pain for example04:08
SpeedEvilgcc was painless for me last time04:09
SpeedEviloh - you mean cross04:09
RiDSpeedEvil: what the hell.. no command found (even on root)04:09
SpeedEvilyou need to install powertop and screen from the sdk repos04:09
RiDSpeedEvil oh, forgive my n00bishness. I'll do it now04:09
javispedrojonwil: noway, OOo takes waywaywayway more04:10
javispedroand like 15GiB last time I builti t04:10
DocScrutinizerRiD: in gprs0  compare traffic values after some time, if they changed04:10
nox-i wonder what takes longer to build, ooo or atlas...04:10
jonwilwhats atlas?04:10
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javispedrobuild OOo on a N900!04:10
javispedromaybe by next year you'll already have oowriter!04:11
javispedroif the flash chip doesn't die first.04:11
nox-some maths libs that do lots of optimizations during the build which take a long time04:11
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jonwilKDE should go on the list of things that take forever to build04:12
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: 15GiB RAM?04:13
jonwilespecially if you need to emerge a full new set of libs for QT etc at the same time04:13
javispedroDocScrutinizer: disk04:13
javispedroDocScrutinizer: .o files, etc.04:13
DocScrutinizermeh that's nuttin. Try libboost04:13
javispedronah, libboost is like 20% the time of OOo04:13
javispedroOOo is like the ultimate C++ monster04:13
javispedrowhenever there's a new version I shudder04:14
villagerI thought OOo had lots of java in it too04:14
nox-doesnt ooo build its own copy of python etc too?04:14
javispedrowell I don't know why it takes so much to build so it maybe builds its copy of python, and of Linux, and of GCC, and of whatever else.04:14
DocScrutinizerjonwil: OK you shot the bull's eye with KDE04:14
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jonwilThankfully OO.o is not something I have installed04:15
* javispedro gnite04:15
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: aaaw04:15
DocScrutinizergood night04:15
nox-gnite javispedro04:16
* nox- too04:16
DocScrutinizergentoo native04:16
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DocScrutinizerinck KDE and OOo04:16
DocScrutinizernow top THAT!04:16
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RiDDocScrutinizer: It's now collecting data04:17
nox-installing and setting up a fresh XP still takes longer than building ooo :P04:17
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DocScrutinizerlast I heard is you can only use every second update, as with the first update you're still compiling ;-P04:18
FIQ|n900<DocScrutinizer> now top THAT!04:18
FIQ|n900ok, jk04:18
DocScrutinizergentoo *is* linux, no?04:18
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FIQ|n900lol gentoo04:19
FIQ|n900"Build everything from source! Do it, MANUALLY is the best. You will earn about 1s within booting!04:20
FIQ|n900that's my feeling about it04:20
RiDDocScrutinizer: A whole bunch of characters appeared, as expected haha. last two lines were: Total wakeups  17903, 596.8/s | IRQ 14221, 474.0/s | Timers 3682, 122.7/snHW wakeups        0,   0.0/s |     Real gp_timers expired  234,   7.8/s04:20
DocScrutinizerRiD: please refer to the URLs I posted above. SpeedEvil explained powertop quite nicely there (except that last two lines, as I noticed today ;-D )04:22
DocScrutinizeryour phone looks a bit busy anyway, just from looking at those last two lines even04:23
DocScrutinizerpowertop will elaborate on which process was that busy, in the "lots of characters" above04:24
FIQ|n900I prefer calling it line noise when I don't understand a single character :D04:24
RiDHaha, most likely because I'm chatting from the phone. I'll take a deeper look on those pages04:24
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DocScrutinizerthey are worse it - SpeedEvil is an excellent analytic and teacher04:26
DocScrutinizerworth ;-P04:26
DocScrutinizerMEH good night04:26
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RiDSee ya later, then04:27
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RiD     C0 |  16.0% |          |  1150 MHz |   nan% |04:32
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SpeedEvilIt doesn't understand powerkenrel04:33
RiDAh, It scared me. D;04:34
RiDhildon desktop is in the 1st place of activthe top activity.   PID1324  Activity:1836 Function Entry(exp): schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)04:37
SpeedEvilWith screen blanked?04:38
SpeedEvilstart powertop, blank the screen, wait 60s04:39
RiDwith blanked you mean turned off right? (<- what a stupid question)04:39
RiDback, hildon-desktop is still the top activity.04:43
RiD   1324 |       1874 | hildon-desktop | schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup)04:43
RiD86% of the time it kept in C1 state, left percentage was in C0.04:44
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SpeedEvilSomethings screwy.04:45
SpeedEvilWhat widgets do you have active?/04:45
RiDhaha i knew it! :/04:45
RiDomweather and ussd widget04:45
RiDboth only update when i decide to04:46
SpeedEvilfor example - is my device - with USB unplugged04:47
RiDwhat a big difference!04:48
SpeedEvil'C4' state is the state it should be in most of the time.04:48
RiDIt seems like it's never in C4, then.04:48
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DocScrutinizerRiD: do you have a "short" applauncher menu? I.E. a menu with so few icons that it can not scroll up or down?04:50
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RiD - that's mine. It was done connected to WiFi04:50
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RiDyes, I do.04:50
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SpeedEvilthat's it then04:51
DocScrutinizerRiD: there's a bug in hildon-desktop04:51
DocScrutinizerit constantly tries bouncing up and down when menu is "too short"04:51
RiDRight now all i want to do is throw myself at the window04:51
RiDBut it's cold outside04:51
DocScrutinizereither make your menu longer, or get the fixed hildon-desktop, see CSSU04:52
RiDI can't really believe that my menu was haunting me.04:52
Termanagood morning04:53
RiDthanks everyone, heh. I had CSSU before, maybe I'll install it or just add more icons (currently it's just two rows)04:53
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RiDBut only the main launcher layer matters, or does the other ones have an impact too? (folders)04:54
jonwilwell that was a bust04:54
DocScrutinizerRiD: unclear04:55
DocScrutinizerthis bug dates back to PR1.2 and I fixed it by replacing hildon desktop original with the way better and bugfixed matan's Modified Hildon Desktop04:56
jonwildebugging, and brought me no closer to figuring out the connui functions I want to call04:56
jonwilspecifically the callback function passed to connui_cell_net_status_register04:57
DocScrutinizerso I can't say if the bug is only in main applauncher screen, but I guess it's not04:57
RiDDocScrutinizer: Well, I'll install CSSU then04:57
DocScrutinizereither that, or just MHD04:58
RiDThanks again to DocScrutinizer and SpeedEvil :D04:58
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maraineinwhen i switch my n900's wlan0 to monitor mode and back to managed mode, it disconnects from the wireless network it was on. i can reconnect it through the gui, but how can i get it to reconnect via the command line?05:01
DocScrutinizer# fix annoying hildon-desktop cpu hog bug05:01
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RiDOh by the way,my tracker isn't working. It simply doesnt indexes any of my media. (this has been for some time too, but i never really cared about that because i dont use some of the stock applications such as the media player etc)05:07
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RiDI'm off, it's 3:12 here and I have more stuff to do xD.05:12
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holmesIIcan anyone tell me which value is exact equal to battery.reporting.current?
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maraineinsolved my problem from before - had to stop icd2 before switching to monitor mode and start it after switching back to managed mode05:20
jonwillibconnui_cell is annoying the hell out of me, I wanna call it but I cant figure out how :(05:23
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jonwilMay need to give up hope ever being able to call it :P05:35
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RST38hWell. Moo all.10:45
RST38hStill no doughnut in the mail.10:45
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cityLights~seen lardman10:49
infobotlardman <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 15h 40m 14s ago, saying: 'deimos: thanks, I got a dhl tracking number after contacting Nokia, but the package had already been delivered (or attempted anyway) '.10:49
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deimoswow 23 hours and 3 minutes takes DHL come here :D12:33
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deimosa teletransport  should be better :)12:34
hiemanshuYour order has been sent on 14.7.2011.12:41
hiemanshuTermana: finally :D12:41
* SpeedEvil sighs.12:41
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: now you can cancel your trip to HELL :D12:43
DocScrutinizeryours just began ;-)12:44
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JaffaMorning, all13:10
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Sicelojeez.. is the front camera just bad for everyone else, or just me? yay! i can hardly see myself. wonder how one's supposed to skype like that13:24
Sickkiit's very dark and bad13:27
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jhbSicelo: I remember reading something about drivers getting even more borked in some PR 1.? upgrade13:39
jhbSicelo: not sure if thats the reason, but mine sucks as well13:39
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MohammadAGwhy the f hasn't my device shipped yet13:55
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ruskie*you are not worthy* ;)13:56
trxMohammadAG at least they didnt send your device to russia to ship it from there... just to add some extra 2500km :)13:56
ruskiegotta love such logistics13:57
trxsomeone from italy got it in 23 hours, and they send mine to russia :)13:58
MohammadAGtrx, it wasn't even sent yet13:59
MohammadAGstill at new order13:59
trxi started to wonder if they even know where Serbia is :/13:59
trxMohammadAG that sucks :/13:59
ruskietrx, hehe13:59
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DocScrutinizertrx: MohammadAG: Nokia may have to sort really nasty details for shipping to some countries. It was virtually impossible to ship N900 to Paul in Moscow just for example, and it took weeks to try, try again, try a third time, and finally fail.14:14
divanDocScrutinizer, they actually decided not to use DHL to ship devices to Russia and Ukraine due to problems with DHL there.14:15
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, they already shipped an N950 to me14:15
MohammadAGerr, N90014:15
mgedminso, did anyone port fbreader to harmattan yet?14:16
DocScrutinizeryeah, but you don't know how long *that* took them to prepare all the paperwork. And it happened during a period of low workload, which clearly doesn't apply to this time14:16
Sampppa_Screenshot tool for Harmattan:
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ShadowJK: weird hw defect in ++  :: BSI value detected wrong :-o14:18
* mgedmin finally figures out that "Nokia Account" is the same as "Ovi Account"14:21
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, one of the guys in that thread sent me a pm the other day, I didn't have time to read the thread then though14:23
DocScrutinizermgedmin: indeed14:24
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: so don't bother, it's lengthy and full of dead ends. But basically the finally spotted root cause in the post I linked14:24
DocScrutinizerestel made some rather odd assumptions about how bq27200 works, and there were a lot of interesting and some funny suggestions that all either were executed poorly or were dead ends from beginning. But they spotted the root cause, kudos for that14:26
ShadowJKbtw, pnatd -> AT+CBC14:27
DocScrutinizerGOOOD point :-D14:27
DocScrutinizertime for 12648430   ☕14:27
ShadowJK(and it returns different values from bq and bme)14:28
DocScrutinizersure, it has "another bme"14:28
DocScrutinizer+CBC: 0,5214:29
DocScrutinizerWTF?! .oO(???)14:29
DocScrutinizerwhatever that's supposed to mean14:30
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DocScrutinizerif that's charge state [0..1] then it's extremely off14:30
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mgedminhm, no sudo on a N950?14:33
mgedmindevel-su asks for a password14:34
macmaNi agree14:34
mgedminhm, even root is not permitted to view dmesg14:34
mgedminat least there's /var/log/syslog14:36
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mgedminnetstat doesn't support -p14:40
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, 0 = not charging, 52% SOC14:40
sivangso how do I reset the lock code? :)14:40
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: extremely off, device is charging since 12h14:41
sivangI mean, the machine is not locked14:41
sivangbut I seem to have forgotten my lock code14:41
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, lol14:41
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, and if you remove charger?14:41
sivangmom ?14:42
* DocScrutinizer heads to other room14:42
sivanghey hey14:42
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infobotsomebody said mompl was a stupid short form for "moment please"14:42
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: no change14:43
ShadowJK0,35 on mine (60% according to bq)14:44
DocScrutinizerdid a 20s call ->same14:44
mgedminit's hard to adjust to the CTRL key being on the opposite side of the keyboard, compared to a N90014:45
DocScrutinizermgedmin: indeed14:45
DocScrutinizeralso some of the symbols again moved to wierd places14:45
DocScrutinizeralso punctuation marks14:45
mgedminoh cool < and > are now directly inputable!14:46
mgedminexplains why I find the location of / unusual14:46
DocScrutinizerI honestly want to make the kbd layouter type for his life, with blinded eyes14:46
DocScrutinizerwell, we won't worry about all that, on N9 ;-P14:47
mgedmina blind typing contest on a N9 would be very interesting14:47
MohammadAGhmm, does the N950 package have a wall charger?14:48
mgedminmy access point went crazy, I think14:48
DocScrutinizerI wonder if that's a exclusive N950 topic and thus a topic for #harmattan rather14:48
deimosMohammadAG, no !!!!14:48
mgedminMohammadAG, no, just a micro-USB cable14:48
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: nope14:48
mgedminthere's a #harmattan?14:48
MohammadAGI'm assuming the N900's charger works?14:49
deimosDocScrutinizer, did u tried that = I don't want to burn it the  1st day :)14:49
deimos= = ?14:49
DocScrutinizerI'm doing that all the time14:49
MohammadAGtechnically it should work but I was wondering if it needs some more non standard shorting14:49
mgedminI've two 12V to USB car adapters; neither of those charges my N90014:50
DocScrutinizerno, the standard nonstandard shorting is just fine, though yet untested if needed at all14:50
DocScrutinizeryoh, SpeedEvil14:51
* DocScrutinizer cranks up the schematics pdf another time14:51
deimosthe n900 charger has an output of 5V and 1200 mA14:51
DocScrutinizerdeimos: so what?14:53
MohammadAG<DocScrutinizer> no, the standard nonstandard shorting is just fine <-- epic sentence14:53
ShadowJKi thought it was standard shorting14:54
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: BSI is pullup 120k to +2V5, so I gather the BSI R in battery is to GNS. What bothers me is: bat GND isn't digital GND14:54
deimosDocScrutinizer, for checking the usb car adapters14:54
deimossurely they have different mA14:54
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: kinda is, for Nokia at least14:55
ShadowJKAtleast at the time it was in the specs :)14:55
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ShadowJKdeimos, if it's more than 350mA or so it'll work14:55
DocScrutinizerdeimos: and your average car battery has 12V 250A14:55
DocScrutinizerdoesn't mean it burns your car stereo that needs 12V@~2A14:56
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deimosShadowJK, and why <mgedmin> chargers doesn't work ?14:57
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mgedmintoo low power?14:57
mgedminlack of patience?14:57
deimosmaybe intelliget chargers with face recon ? :)14:58
mgedminmy sister tried to charge her Sony Xperia with one of those, and it worked, but only after a couple of minutes14:58
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ShadowJKdeimos, lots of shitty car chargers that only have a usb port on them lack the connection between D+ and D-14:58
mgedminI never waited a couple of minutes, gave up after maybe 20 seconds14:58
mgedminotoh an official Nokia adapter with the thin plug -> microusb converter works at once14:59
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yup exactly14:59
DocScrutinizerwallwart chargers as well14:59
DocScrutinizermgedmin: (thin plug -> microusb converter) CA-146A?15:00
mgedminprobably, I never keep track of those CA-xxx names15:00
mgedminlemme google15:00
DocScrutinizerthe one with the 3.5 and the 5mm barrel hole?15:01
DocScrutinizermgedmin: ^^^15:01
mgedminthe one that's known to overheat and partially melt in certain occasions :)15:01
DocScrutinizerthat's basically a whole autonomous charger circuit with a rather andom power supply via those barrel holes15:02
DocScrutinizerit works from ~3.6V .. some 6 or 8V without too much problems15:03
DocScrutinizerand surely has the Nokia mandatory D+- short15:03
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mgedminthat could explain everything15:04
mgedminI'd optimistically assumed the D+- short was in an official USB charger spec, and all modern car adapters would have it15:04
* DocScrutinizer digs thru his nest of cables and adaptors, to find a way to plug N950 to 5V *without* the D+- short15:04
* mgedmin is trying to ssh into his N950 but is stumped by a password prompt15:05
DocScrutinizermgedmin: it *is* a part of official specs - amost no device supports it though15:05
DocScrutinizerroot rootme15:05
sivangfoudn out the lock code15:06
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sivangbut with my memory not with the trick in TMO15:06
sivangseems the code s no longer stored in mtd1 ?15:06
DocScrutinizerit is15:06
deimosI can ssh into 950 !15:07
* sivang retires15:07
sivangdeimos: sure you can15:07
sivangdeimos: why would not you be able to?15:07
sivangit is a Maemo, after all15:07
sivangor a Harmattan for that matter15:07
mgedminpasswd -u user -> now I can ssh with my pubkey15:07
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sivangwhy would not yuou?15:08
mgedminI wonder if that also leaves a hole where I can ssh in with no password or anything...15:08
mgedmin/etc/passwd has 'user::' instead of 'user:*:' that I expected15:08
sivangnow it works, after I put the default lock code back15:08
sivangbut befre that it was my social security number15:08
sivangand it did not show me the code wth the trick here:15:08
mgedminno, blank passwords do not work, *whew*15:09
sivangthey are not blank!15:09
sivanghey mgedmin , btw15:09
sivangbeena while15:09
* sivang wish for a N915:09
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DocScrutinizermgedmin: sudo ssh user@localhost15:09
DocScrutinizeror rather devel-su; ssh user@loacalhost15:10
sivangdevel-su ?15:10
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sivangwhat's that?15:10
sivangis there a channel for N950?15:10
DocScrutinizerthe aegis flavour of su15:11
Mekwhy not `devrootsh`?15:11
sivangdoese it work in Mameo as well?15:11
TermanaDocScrutinizer, mmm mmm aegis flavour. my favourite15:11
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sivangTermana: bah15:12
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DocScrutinizeroff topic: does anybody know of a way to disbale the sticky behaviour of alt-key for kbd-shortcuts, i.e. make alt;d;b  != alt+(d;b), for KDE?15:16
DocScrutinizersometimes I hit ALT and then type ahead. FUN :-/ Randomthings happen15:17
MohammadAGhmm, doesn't happen here15:17
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Hurriantmo seems to be discussing a split from nokia15:19
Hurrian1/2 of the thread is discussing a name15:19
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ShadowJKa what?15:22
ShadowJKare they aware of that isn't run by Nokia..15:22
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lardmannew laptop, need to install Linux now, what do people recommend?15:42
lardmanbearing in mind it's a Dell Latitude and that I'm wanting to do dev for the N900 + Harmattan + Meego15:42
* lardman wonders if selecting OpenSUSE based on the logo is justifiable ;)15:44
DocScrutinizerlardman: for harmattan dev you need ubuntu, for meego dev you need suse. Easy, isn't it? ;-P15:45
keriodon't you dare15:45
lardmanDocscrutinizer: quite15:45
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lardmanI don't need to use OpenSUSE for Meego though do I? I thought there were Ubuntu packages too?15:46
DocScrutinizergiven the fact I managed to install maemo SB SDK on suse, I can't really recommend ubuntu15:47
lardmanI'm getting annoyed with Ubuntu's multiscreen support, but that is not an issue for a laptop15:47
lardmansuse is rpm based?15:47
DocScrutinizerthough you don't care15:48
lardmanI know the debian tools though, but I guess it will force me to learn something new and useful for meego15:48
deimosthere are packages for ubuntu 10.10 not yet for 11.04, but you ca install all toolchains needed in QtSDK whatever linux distro you use15:48
DocScrutinizerfor suse you don't learn anything new, as you use yast package manager15:49
lardmanI need a builder though as not all my stuff is Qt based15:49
lardmanDocScrutinizer: what about the maemo sdk, any issues there?15:49
deimoslardman, there is not the harmattan toolchain15:50
DocScrutinizeras mentioned I managed to install the maemo ( /harmattan) SDK on suse, and it's working ok there15:50
DocScrutinizerfor harmattan there's a update that probably "just installs" on existing SB. The flasher-3.5.11 exists in two .deb for now, but no tarball15:51
DocScrutinizerI guess I can extract and install the binary from .deb manually, or use alien or what it's called15:52
lardmanthanks Doc15:52
lardmanI'll give it a go15:52
lardmanone last Q15:52
lardmanlaptop has Windows installed, presumably the installer will alter the partiton sizes, etc., for me as Ubuntu would15:52
DocScrutinizerno problem15:53
lardmancool, one must check as some installation media (Meego netbook, hint hint) don't offer such options ;)15:53
lardmanhmm, only 4.8MB/sec download15:54
lardmanah better, up to 6.8MB/s15:54
* lardman goes to collect laptop in expectation that suse DVD will be downloaded when he gets back in a few min15:55
DocScrutinizerlardman: take all my prev staements with a grain of salt, as I hate ubuntu - it's too much like windows and too poorly "integrated" (whatever that means). MAybe you are better off with ubuntu nevertheless if you don't feel like that - esp I don't think suse is mandatory for meego development15:56
DocScrutinizerthat's not reverting my prev advice, but to enable you to make your own decision15:57
alteregoStrange how I only have 2G connection :/15:57
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DocScrutinizeralterego: where, why, on what?15:59
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alterego2G, at home, on my N95016:00
alteregoI should get 3G ..16:00
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DocScrutinizeralterego: sounds like you better post those random N950 bits on #harmattan , as then there won't be such questions as mine16:03
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lardmanDocScrutinizer: thanks for the caveats, another of my office workers is happy with suse, and it also has a nice logo so I'll give it a go :)16:06
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DocScrutinizerI think suse is pretty good16:07
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DocScrutinizerjust one bad thing: you forget how to do things like user account management, firewall admin, all that stuff the classic cmdline way. Yast is too easy so you just use it and forget about adduser and all that16:08
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* lardman wonders what a 512e hdd is16:09
lardmanah, 4KB sectors but it pretends to have 512B sectors16:12
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DocScrutinizereeeew that crap16:26
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rm_workGAN900 / GeneralAntilles: shipped :P16:40
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hiemanshuGeneralAntilles: sent yet?16:45
hiemanshurm_work: shipped today?16:46
rm_workhiemanshu: yes, though no DHL email yet16:46
rm_workat 12:00 finnish time16:46
rm_work14.7.2011 12:4416:46
hiemanshurm_work: ah, I think they will give you the DHL number around 6-ish .fi time16:46
rm_workwhat time is it there now16:46
hiemanshurm_work: around 4:4516:47
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DocScrutinizerrm_work: you might want to /join #harmattan16:56
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DocScrutinizerrm_work: FYI: it seems DHL can not send mail to anybody, as they don't even know your email addr. The mail with tracking number always is sent by xxx.yyy@nokia.com16:57
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rm_workDocScrutinizer: >_> #harmattan... >_>16:59
rm_workDocscrutinizer: and well, yes, by "DHL email" i just meant the email with the DHL tracking info, whoever it is from16:59
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: I expect that arrives last .fi time right? can you give me the time you got yours?17:00
hiemanshuso we know when to send an email17:00
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DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: I'm discussing N950 specific topics on #harmattan17:01
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DocScrutinizerthe S/N for "normal" N900 (and diablo...) users on this chan is poor enough since a week17:02
MohammadAGnot shipped yet for me17:03
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fiferboyI got the tracking email at around 8:30 EST17:29
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GAN900rm_work, yes.18:35
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paviIs there no photo uploading tool to Gallery2 in maemo ?19:00
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rm_workyeah got my shipping email ... erm, apparently earlier somehow19:14
rm_workbut missed it19:14
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hiemanshurm_work: you got yours?19:18
* hiemanshu hasn't got one yet19:18
rm_workyeah with DHL tracking number19:18
rm_workgot it like 4 hours ago almost19:18
hiemanshunothing for me yet19:18
rm_workapparently it went to a different email19:18
rm_worki have some sort of mismatch going on19:18
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hiemanshuI haven't got mine, I shoudl email and ask for one19:19
rm_workorder sent email: 4:45am my time; tracking DHL email: 7:38am my time19:19
rm_workjust wait a bit i'd say19:19
rm_workinteresting tho, i have no idea estimated delivery time19:20
rm_workGAN900: yes to -- yours shipped?19:20
hiemanshurm_work: and your current time?19:21
rm_worki'm CDT19:22
rm_workit's 11:22am right now19:22
hiemanshuah ok19:22
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hiemanshuI'll need it to intercept the package as I am in the middle of moving houses19:22
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GAN900rm_work, yes.19:23
rm_workGAN900: cool, wonder if all of them have shipped now? this would be the "one week" period they stated19:24
rm_workanyone's order not ship yet?19:24
hiemanshurm_work: Termana for example19:24
rm_workhrm ok19:25
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rm_workbbl, lunch :P19:28
wazdAny 3D-modelling guru's in here? :P19:29
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deimoswith maya ?19:30
wazdanything :)19:30
wazdanything that's able to produce a landscape :)19:30
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deimosI used a lot maya :)19:31
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wazddeimos: have some free time to help with OSS project? :)19:31
deimoswell, now I have to study QML :) , but I can swap here and there :)19:32
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* mgedmin appreciated the ability to ask for SMS announcements about various DHL delivery checkpoints19:42
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GeneralAntillesIt's amazing the crap people churn out for iOS devices.19:53
Noobmonk3ylol general....19:56
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luke-jrthe *nix/Windows security model is flawed20:02
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RST38h"Living above the 50N latitude, it is amusing to observe the next developing pandemia of cholera online..."21:21
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Venemoachipa, are there any Qt Quick components for Fremantle?21:22
fiferboyVenemo: I am almost positive there aren't any right now21:23
achipaVenemo: nope21:23
fiferboyBut I would be interested in knowing if there are any that will be forthcoming21:23
fiferboyachipa: Do you know if there are any plans?21:23
achipa(if you mean Fremantle-style components)21:23
achipafiferboy: no plans, Fremantle is dead as a doornail21:24
fiferboyI guess the community could step in, though21:24
Venemoachipa, any components at all? maybe desktop components would work on it?21:24
achipasure, the custom branch should work21:25
achipaI think kate or antonio packaged it21:25
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fiferboyachipa: Is that branch likely to be officially supported over time?21:25
fiferboyI think it is just experimental currently21:25
achipafiferboy: could, and for most stuff, it would be fairly easy, except for maybe the fancy pickers...21:26
Venemoso, for the time being, I may have to keep the QWidget-based GUI for Fremantle?21:26
achipafiferboy: not sure, ask the trolls21:26
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achipabut the point is, there is not really such a thing as officially supported21:26
fiferboyachipa: Yeah, but pickers are actually easier to implement in QML than Qt (in my experience)21:26
DocScrutinizerachipa: fremantle is sucked out for profit, now it may start the real life21:26
Venemolol DocScrutinizer21:27
achipafiferboy: yes, they were HARD to implement in Qt. QML is a lot easier, but still not trivial, especially in thing which require hildon integration21:27
DocScrutinizereven while Nokia kept the parts they tought will stop this21:27
achipafiferboy: read, the tough part is the HIM stuff21:27
fiferboyachipa: I don't doubt that.  I never dug around in the HIM/Qt interaction code21:28
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achipafiferboy: and the thing is that most of the effects (background blur, etc) is done on the WM level (again, something that would be something trivial with a shadereffect, but if you have to go to the system, ugh)21:29
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DocScrutinizerachipa: fremantle is linux, linux is FOSS. You *never* know when a FOSS project is dead - definitely it isn't as long as hundered contribute and thousands or even 100.000s use it21:31
achipaso for stuff like pushbuttons, lists, etc, shouldn't be hard, but dialogs, pickers, input method funk... that's a different story21:31
DocScrutinizerand even while everybody incl Nokia might think fremantle is owned by Nokia, in fact it is *not*21:32
achipaDocScrutinizer: the only hardware capable running is not produced for months now21:32
achipasure, cordia et al, but then we're not talking about Fremantle21:32
fiferboyachipa: I was around the fringes of the original community Qt port, and the styling did look pretty easy (IIRC just pulled from the Gtk stlye) but there was a lot of system witchcraft that happened too21:32
achipafiferboy: if you mean the Diablo 4.5 port, yeah, but in those days (functionally) it wasn't as far from the desktop (i.e. menus, status bars, etc)...21:34
DocScrutinizerso what? the VW Kaefer isn't built anymore since what? 30 years? only in Mexico a decade longer? I bet you will hear loud protest calling the community around it dead21:34
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fiferboyachipa: True21:35
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wazd_fiferboy: heya :)21:35
wazd_fiferboy: already got the device? :P21:35
fiferboywazd_: Hi, how's things?21:35
fiferboywazd_: No, it is leaving Finland around now21:35
achipaDocScrutinizer: sure, it's just that I don't see the manpower21:35
wazd_fiferboy: sad, thanks to russian customs :)21:35
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fiferboywazd_: Has yours been confiscated?21:36
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wazd_fiferboy: no, but to avoid it Nokia had to send it with someone21:37
achipaDocScrutinizer: porting Qt4.7 to Diablo was trivial. Nobody did it. Fremantle is still on 4.7.0, even with the CSSU... and if you can't must the community support for something as important as Qt, then I'm somewhat skeptical of the viability...21:37
wazd_fiferboy: so it's gonnabe a looong journey :)21:37
DocScrutinizerachipa: I'm criticizing the diction. You may say fremantle won't have a next official release version anytime (soon). It's definitely not dead (yet) though21:37
achipawazd_: coming on raindeer-sleds from Finland ? :)21:37
fiferboywazd_: Oh yeah, I heard they were being "hard couriered" to Russia21:37
DocScrutinizerachipa: and it hurts those who care hearing such statements21:37
achipaDocScrutinizer: okay, okay, let's not get bogged down in terminology21:37
achipaSORRY :)21:38
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wazd_achipa: yep, something like that :)21:38
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DocScrutinizerand tbh I don't see any successor to take over21:39
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DocScrutinizerI don't think harmattan will have appeal to the same target group21:40
achipaharmattan is... special21:40
DocScrutinizermeegoCE is yet to get on par, usability wise21:40
DocScrutinizerno matter on which handheld21:41
achipathe question is of course what do you consider the "essence" of Fremantle21:41
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DocScrutinizerthe desktop feeling in a nutshell21:41
achipai.e. is it Hildon, the desktop, etc21:41
DocScrutinizerthe idea that I *could* run KDE on that thing any time21:42
achipawell... dunno. I would say that's quite subjective, I didn't find harmattan that far in that regard (if a little more attention was put in the landscape stuff)21:43
achipathen again, I found Fremantle's three-layer navigation quite confusing in the beginning21:43
fralsyou *could* probably run KDE on harmattan as well21:43
DocScrutinizerstarts with the missing buttons of *any* kind, and the implications this has on the entire UX design21:43
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achipaoh, we hatesss buttonssss :)21:44
achipaHonestly, I'm surprised the volume button(s) survived21:44
fralsbutchering the camera key made me sad panda :(21:45
DocScrutinizerknow what? all my nightshots with the cam were crap - shakey due to taping the screen21:45
achipaDocScrutinizer: not disagreeing :)21:46
achipapersonally I would love to have the same delay option my cam has - press +2 sec21:46
achipaand that's not rocket science21:46
DocScrutinizeractually a (botchy) workaround that's feasible21:47
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achipafrals: that camkey is coming back... it's a requirement for the WP7 HW spec21:48
* achipa ducks21:48
DocScrutinizeryesterday I pondered a little fancy and writing a mail with a lengthy stricly hw-centric review, with points like these. But then again, meh, the device will never get sold21:48
DocScrutinizereven less reworked21:48
fralsachipa: :(21:49
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DocScrutinizerachipa: it was a really smart move of Nokia if they'd look up in wikipedia what's a linux BSP, and then shipp *all* their phones with such a package21:50
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DocScrutinizerno matter what's the primary OS21:51
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DocScrutinizerfame and additional sales for almost free21:52
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achipageez... why WHYYYY21:52
ruskieor atleast offer downloads21:52
DocScrutinizerruskie: would make no difference, but throving in a mini-CD with the linux BSP was a mega advertisement effect21:53
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DocScrutinizerthrowing even21:54
DocScrutinizera download offer goes unnoticed in any review - the CD will get mentioned on each newspaper next to the name of the new models21:56
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DocScrutinizer"in times where every technically skilled user has the knowledge that 20 years ago was to be found only on highly specialized IT experts, Nokia has decided to open up the option to build your very own linux based OS for your phone, by shipping every model with the needed special driver CD that allows development for the phone like you're used to it for the standard linux desktop"21:59
DocScrutinizerno promises, no warranty, no hassle - just happy nerds and good public relations22:01
DocScrutinizerand setting up a basic BSP is sth the EE dpmt has to do anyway, for the OS sw dudes22:01
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DocScrutinizerjust streamline that a bit, and make the ¼²¼²ð²²¹ß¹**## lawyers look into it and give their placet22:03
DocScrutinizerburn on a mini CD and prepare the story for the press22:04
DocScrutinizerNokia still thinks they need to sell complete systems, while it seems to me they'd be better off producing hardware, strictly hardware only22:05
DocScrutinizerbuy the WP7 from M$, and give community a BSP22:06
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DocScrutinizerNokia *knows* to build good hw22:06
DocScrutinizerI'm not all that convinced Nokia understood about FOSS and the way it works22:07
GAN900Nokia as a giant blob doesn't necessarily mean anything22:09
DocScrutinizerthe giant blob has coherence, and a nucleus like an amoeba that somewhat decides for some aspects of begaviour of the whole blob22:10
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DocScrutinizerthe firs PCs came with the OS bundled, all from one hand and that was IBM. Nowadays no board manufacturer and not even many system integrators consider it mandatory to ship any OS with their product. Sure you *can* get a WIN7 or whatever with your Dell PC, but you can as well opt for Linux or bare bones22:16
GeneralAntillesI don't think phones are there yet for the overwhelming majority of consumers.22:17
DocScrutinizernah, but it doesn't hurt to start offering it22:17
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DocScrutinizerPCs aren't there for most customers as well - >90% will get a all-in-one package22:18
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DocScrutinizeranyway how about Nokia this one time were the first to offer it, rather than always catching up with leaders of the trend22:19
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DocScrutinizerI for one would prefer to see this coming from and for Nokia rather than e.g HTC or Samsung22:23
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DocScrutinizerbut then you bet the 50%(?) sw and UX and usability and services guys at nokia aren't exactly enthusiastic about such a concept22:26
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Try to get a laptop in many places without windows.22:33
GeneralAntillesJaffa, finally shipped. ;)22:38
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Yay22:38
hiemanshuGeneralAntilles: yay22:38
hiemanshuJaffa: mine too :P22:38
hiemanshuJaffa: now you rest in peace and dont have to worry about me coming to steal yours :P22:38
hiemanshuwait, that is more for DocScrutinizer than you :P22:39
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MohammadAGdoes the DC-6 work with the N900?23:11
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DocScrutinizerwhat is DC-6?23:13
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MohammadAGNokia DC-6 car charger DocScrutinizer23:16
DocScrutinizerwell, most probably it should work then23:17
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lbtJaffa: do you know how to work around : "couldn't open page : ssl handshake failed"23:45
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Jaffalbt: thiago was saying on #meego that it's a Qt 4.7 bug.23:58
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