IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-06-24

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ric31	rm_work> thanks there is only one video on/home/user/MyDocs/.video	00:01
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ric31	and not my all video i take	00:02
rm_work	ric31: do you have a microSD card?	00:02
rm_work	ric31: it will often default to the microSD card	00:02
rm_work	in which case, I am not 100% sure where it goes on there, but a quick browse (and make sure to check for hidden folders) should help	00:03
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ric31	no	00:03
ric31	i see there is a lot file bebin by dot	00:04
ric31	begin	00:04
ric31	i am looking in	00:04
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piggz	after all the fuss about the n9 score on html5test.com, i just realised my n900 beats it anyway :)	00:05
rm_work	lol what piggz?	00:05
piggz	rm_work: 262 + 9 bonus (meego 1.2 ce with firefox ;)	00:06
rm_work	piggz: but what fuss about n9 score?	00:06
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Seablade	wazd: Funny side topic... I just came from here.... http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2011/06/21/photos-u2-preparations-in-baltimore.html	00:07
Seablade	wazd: Specifically went straight from that job to my full time work	00:07
piggz	ppl saying it is a good score i think	00:07
Seablade	;)	00:07
rm_work	piggz: ah i see it, 257 + 14?	00:08
piggz	y	00:08
rm_work	yeah that is pretty good for mobile browsers :P but yeah. n900 was just fine there too	00:08
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rm_work	jacekowski: wow this seems slick. man, i always loved opera :P	00:09
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mer_ge	maemo scores 271+9 on html5test.com nice :)	00:11
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mer_ge	firefox on maemo	00:11
mer_ge	does anyone use wifi-switcher?	00:11
Seablade	hmm 10 minutes in a toaster, and the n900 still turns on amazingly, but sadly no improvement in cell problems, so I now have an internet tablet it seems. I don't think I should try longer than 10 minutes though as I am already beginning to smell things I shouldn't be I don't think	00:12
Venemo	Seablade, wut?	00:13
Seablade	Venemo: Ongoing report from earlier, short version I am having communications error, reboot device, etc. that means I can't talk to cellular networks with my n900 anymore	00:13
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Seablade	Venemo: Been trying to reflow the solder with a toaster, but if it has happened there hasn't been any difference	00:14
Venemo	Seablade, why don't you just take it to warranty repair?	00:14
ric31	how do you do to backup video from n900 to pc linux	00:14
nox-	then he'll get an n8 back...	00:14
Seablade	Venemo: Because I am in the US, bought one of the first batches, and due to a 1 year warranty over here it is well out of warranty	00:14
Venemo	Seablade, ah. unlucky :(	00:15
nox-	Venemo, someone said they're out of spare parts and now send ppl other phones back like n8.s	00:15
Venemo	LoooL	00:16
Venemo	what the heck should I do with an N8?	00:16
nox-	right :)	00:16
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Venemo	N8 is not a mobile computer	00:16
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lcuk	Venemo, it is a mobile Qt platform though	00:16
lcuk	runs your app well?	00:17
lcuk	there is something wrong with your qt if it does not want to work there?	00:17
lcuk	oh Venemo, it is also multitouch	00:17
Venemo	yes, my app runs on the N8 in a not-so-bad manner	00:17
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Venemo	however, the philosophy of the N900 feels closer to my heart than the philosophy of the N8	00:18
lcuk	good stuff	00:18
mer_ge	is maemo6 on the N9 also such a nice integrated SIP/jabber phone btw?	00:19
Venemo	mer_ge, yes as far as I saw it	00:20
mer_ge	is there _any_ other phone out there except of maemos that do that? me doubting	00:21
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MohammadAG	yes it integrates shit	00:25
mer_ge	nice! that's SO underrated imo	00:25
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Seablade	Would be nice if it integrated into Google's services a bit better IMO, but that isn't to say I dislike the integration that is in the n900	00:26
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jacekowski	what about fmtx on n9?	00:26
jacekowski	any info on that	00:26
jacekowski	is it there or not?	00:26
flailingmonkey	pretty likely not	00:26
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Jaffa	Nokians have said h/w is on the wifi/BT chip as on N900	00:27
Seablade	I thought I saw the hardware is there, but like Maemo5 the software is not, but I could easily be passing along false information	00:27
Venemo	I think there is one, but I'm not sure	00:27
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Jaffa	But whether or not you can make it work is up to external softwar	00:27
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jacekowski	Jaffa: that's not a problem	00:27
jacekowski	Jaffa: is it same chip?	00:28
jacekowski	Jaffa: or something else?	00:28
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jacekowski	and NDAs will be a problem?	00:28
Jaffa	jacekowski: I think I read same chip; but ICBW	00:28
jacekowski	and when is it going to be released?	00:28
SpeedEvil	Seablade: It's not only the chip	00:28
SpeedEvil	Seablade: It will also depend on if the antenna matching components are there. If it's not - there is no hope.	00:29
SpeedEvil	oh - for tx - the antenna ratehr	00:29
jacekowski	well, if you only need 10cm or so you only need piece of copper connected to chip	00:29
Seablade	SpeedEvil: Define antenna matching components for me...?	00:29
jacekowski	Seablade: few inductors and few capacitors	00:30
jacekowski	to make transmission happen	00:30
Seablade	jacekowski: Oh ok, so the RF transmission front end that connects to the antenna itself, yes I would consider that to be a necessary part of the hardware	00:31
jacekowski	but 1G of ram is amazing	00:32
jacekowski	and 64G of flash	00:32
Seablade	Of course I consider the FMTX nice and use it often in my car, I am not personally on the line of it needs to be there, I owuld be happy using A2DP as well	00:32
jacekowski	Seablade: my radio can't do a2dp	00:32
Seablade	jacekowski: Neither can mine	00:32
jacekowski	exactly	00:32
Seablade	jacekowski: Thus why I use FMTX already on my n900, but worst case scneario I owuld hook a bluetooth receiver up to it	00:33
jacekowski	bt uses more power	00:33
Seablade	jacekowski: Then again playing with sound is my passion and my life. I make my living from it. I can understand that not everyone wants to do the same	00:33
Jaffa	Oooh, I want my next car radio to have Bluetooth & NFC :)	00:33
Jaffa	There's that Bluetooth standard which is better audio quality than A2DP; which it seems the N9 supports	00:34
Venemo	bye-bye	00:34
cehteh	anyone ever tried to transfer data with FMTX? AX.25 or so? :)	00:34
Seablade	jacekowski: Possibly yes, not something I Know off hand, but I am not to worried about the power differential myself, worst case just get a USB car charger	00:34
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Seablade	Jaffa: I would be curious on both standards, got links to info on them?	00:35
jacekowski	and palm pre style charging	00:35
jacekowski	contactless	00:35
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Seablade	Jaffa: I have often wondered what A2DP actually supported, obviously not something I use a whole lot, even given my profession as it isn't reliable enough for me to use professionally	00:35
cehteh	and for fast charge put it on our induction stove :P	00:35
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jacekowski	compatibility with that wouldn't be bad feature	00:36
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Jaffa	Seablade: http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/06/21/nokia-steps-it-up-a-gear-with-new-accessories/ - scroll down to see the MD-310	00:37
Jaffa	Seablade: APT-X is the alternative	00:37
mer_ge	[offtopic] I think soon there'd be no need to integrate Gtalk anymore at all as it becomes standard jabber-jingle http://www.zool.dk/?p=118	00:37
cehteh	jacekowski: the induction stove?	00:37
cehteh	i wont try it :)	00:37
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Seablade	Jaffa: Yea, I couldn't care less about their hardware, it is almost a guarantee it won't be what I want, looking up the protocol now	00:38
cehteh	i mean pumping 3.5KW into the tiny device .. what can possibly go wrong? :)	00:38
petteri	mer_ge: n9(00) might not be happy about that: http://blog.barisione.org/2011-06/broken-gtalk-calls	00:39
barisione	petteri, mer_ge: the N9 is fine	00:40
Seablade	mer_ge: I still want for a google voice call to ring my n900, which I believe is outside of the standard Jingle specs from my experience, but haven't looked into it to much yet. All I Know is it doesn't work on the n900 currently:)	00:40
petteri	barisione: nice to hear	00:40
Seablade	mer_ge: That should be, Google Voice Call forwarded to Google Talk, should ring my cell phone, it currently doesn't	00:40
barisione	petteri: we already released and integrate the fix for Harmattan	00:41
barisione	Seablade: how does google voice calls work exactly?	00:41
mer_ge	barisione it's sip I think	00:41
Seablade	mer_ge: No	00:41
mer_ge	k	00:42
Seablade	Google Voice itself does not make calls. It only forwards calls	00:42
Seablade	But it can forward calls to Google Talk, which can make and receive calls via Jabber/Jingle. Yet for some reason on the n900 when doing this it won't ring the n900	00:42
flailingmonkey	jabber != sip	00:42
rm_work	Jaffa: my car has A2DP built in, it is awesome	00:43
barisione	I work on gabble (so XMPP for both GTalk and Facebook), but others maintains the call bits	00:43
flailingmonkey	*?	00:43
barisione	so I don't know much about it :)	00:43
Seablade	Google Voice can also forward calls to any landline which is how I am currently using it, forwarding to a skype number which I get on my n900 since it's cell phone doesn't work	00:43
rm_work	Jaffa: when I turn on my car it auto-pairs to n900 and does calls over the radio / builtin mic, and plays music otherwise :P	00:43
rm_work	never take my phone out of my pocket	00:43
lcuk	rm_work, we don't have a problem with bluetooth cars	00:44
rm_work	lol yeah	00:44
lcuk	its the fact you wear stocking and suspenders to "turn your car on"	00:44
rm_work	rofl	00:44
Seablade	Jaffa: Based off what I am seeing on APT-X it is still unsuitable for professional uses, despite what Wikipedia may say:) But that being said I would still want to see side by side between it and A2DP to see the difference, if they are even comparable	00:45
mer_ge	I don't really get it. Google changed the jingle standard now? Will this affect any non-google calls in any way?	00:45
flailingmonkey	mer_ge: i'm pretty sure that google did something non-standard before, and are now moving to using jingle. is that right?	00:46
Seablade	mer_ge: Google didn't change the Jingle standard, what Google is doing with Voice integration is either outside of the Jingle protocol extension, or is something not yet implemented by the n900	00:46
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Seablade	IIRC Google was involved in the development of Jingle but again this is something that I may be wrong on	00:47
mer_ge	yes, google develped jingle but used their own dialekt of it	00:47
mer_ge	now they seem to merge	00:48
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mer_ge	and I thought that'd resolve any remaining little issue there might be anywhere :)	00:49
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mer_ge	but I get confused by this issue. and I don't use google, but you can log in to your google account using a non-gtalk client as well. and make calls over jingle right?	00:51
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mer_ge	the client decided (I thought)	00:51
Seablade	mer_ge: Yes you can, thus why the n900 can make calls over google talk	00:52
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mer_ge	thanks all! of what I read, everything seem to evolve nicely :)	00:54
mer_ge	bye	00:54
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Hurrian	ugh, rootfs.lzo file structure is ODD.	01:26
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Hurrian	there's no ext4 header, it starts off immediately with the FS label	01:27
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nox-	ext4? are you sure n900 even knows that?	01:28
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SpeedEvil	Can anyone point me at n950 source? Secifically kernel - but any is handy	01:29
Hurrian	http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/k/kernel/	01:32
andre__	SpeedEvil, http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/k/kernel/ I guess	01:32
SpeedEvil	Thanks!	01:32
andre__	heh	01:32
Hurrian	nox- i'm working with the rootfs.lzo image from the N950 system	01:32
SpeedEvil	And Human wins!	01:32
SpeedEvil	:)	01:32
Hurrian	nokia has it on download ;)	01:32
nox-	oh ok :)	01:33
Hurrian	also, i've found the EXT4 header at 18E, tried to mount it at offset 398, no dice	01:33
Hurrian	"53 EF"	01:33
jacekowski	Hurrian: it may be ubifs	01:33
jacekowski	Hurrian: i wouldn't expect them to change it	01:33
Hurrian	i will shoot somebody if they actually strapped an ext4 fs on top of ubi	01:34
Hurrian	then again, you may be right	01:35
jacekowski	are you sure it's ext4 header	01:35
jacekowski	not something looking like ext4?	01:35
Hurrian	the "ext4" header comes after FS label	01:35
Hurrian	i'm comparing an ext4 sparse file to the rootfs.lzo image	01:35
jacekowski	i would shoot them just for using ext4 on mobile device	01:35
SpeedEvil	Hurrian: Sorry - not awake - how do I go from deb to source?	01:36
Hurrian	uhh, wait	01:36
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: apt-get source packagename	01:36
andre__	I expect ext4 for /home (but vfat for the user documents section)	01:36
kerio	andre__: that's another whole load of bullshit	01:38
SpeedEvil	thanks	01:38
kerio	vfat is not fit for anything nowadays	01:39
SpeedEvil	Is there a onenand, or is it one big eMMC?	01:39
SpeedEvil	s/onenand/POP nand/	01:39
infobot	SpeedEvil meant: Is there a POP nand, or is it one big eMMC?	01:39
andre__	kerio, sure, let's just ignore the 96% Windows users out there that want to copy Music onto the device	01:40
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kerio	you mean let's ignore the 4 windows users who will buy the n9 by mistake?	01:40
jacekowski	andre__: you can always do it in MTP mode	01:41
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jacekowski	kerio: i thought about that	01:42
andre__	jacekowski: also for non-media files? always thought that it was a windows media player thingy, but haven't used windows for years so no idea	01:42
kerio	would that work?	01:42
jacekowski	kerio: yes	01:42
jacekowski	kerio: complicated though	01:43
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jacekowski	andre__: no	01:43
jacekowski	andre__: you can use MTP to transfer any kind of files	01:43
kerio	you'd still need to umount the fs from meego though	01:43
andre__	ah	01:43
jacekowski	no	01:44
jacekowski	that's the thing with mtp	01:44
jacekowski	it's more like scp sort of thing	01:44
jacekowski	just over usb and called differently	01:44
jacekowski	and implementd slightly differently	01:44
kerio	so, not like scp	01:45
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Hurrian	uuuugh, i wish we can port MTP to maemo 5	01:50
Hurrian	this is the way nokia should've done it a LONG time ago	01:50
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angelox\|laptop	Hi all	03:46
angelox\|laptop	only flashing rootfs and kernel i'll be at PR 1.3 ?	03:46
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c2pLaY	depends on what you are flashing it? with	03:48
angelox\|laptop	if i only flashed they,and i flash everything now again,i'll brick it?	03:50
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c2pLaY	not sure if that made sense	03:51
c2pLaY	is english your first language?	03:52
angelox\|laptop	no,sorry :(	03:52
c2pLaY	maybe ask if someone here speaks your language	03:53
c2pLaY	341 people	03:53
c2pLaY	good chances man	03:53
angelox\|laptop	I'm Brazillian..some one speaking Portuguese??	03:54
angelox\|laptop	c2pLaY: btw,sorry my bad english :(	03:54
c2pLaY	its ok	03:54
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Sc0rpius	it's ok	03:54
Sc0rpius	though I couldn't understand either	03:54
c2pLaY	hope someone would take pitty on me if i was in brazil	03:54
c2pLaY	;)	03:54
Sc0rpius	pity	03:54
c2pLaY	umm yeah	03:54
c2pLaY	typo	03:54
c2pLaY	what do you know	03:55
Sc0rpius	heh	03:55
c2pLaY	i rarely use that word	03:55
c2pLaY	;)	03:55
Sc0rpius	angelox\|laptop why would you want to flash your phone?	03:55
Sc0rpius	vc explícalo in portugués	03:56
Sc0rpius	and I'd understand	03:56
angelox\|laptop	some days ago my phone wasn't booting because i flashed a wrong kernel,i needed to flash only kernel and rootfs(was from pr 1.3) and it worked,and now i'd like to know if my phone is in pr 1.3 now...it was pr 1.2	03:57
angelox\|laptop	please check if you can understand	03:57
Sc0rpius	well go to Settings -> About product and what version does it say?	03:57
c2pLaY	i think he's saying it won't post	03:57
c2pLaY	so he can't check	03:58
angelox\|laptop	let me check	03:58
c2pLaY	oh	03:58
Sc0rpius	you thought his phone didn't boot? :)	03:58
c2pLaY	well that's what he said...	03:58
c2pLaY	lol	03:58
Sc0rpius	he confused "only" with "just"	03:58
Sc0rpius	that's all	03:58
Sc0rpius	"I needed to flash just the kernel and rootfs..."	03:58
c2pLaY	oi	03:58
Sc0rpius	because in portuguese, only and just is the same word	03:59
Sc0rpius	ARE	03:59
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angelox\|laptop	sorry,i forgot only word :\ but i know what that means	03:59
Sc0rpius	well my phone says 20.2010.36-2 but I have CSSU installed so I'm not sure what was PR1.3 version number but it's something very similar	04:00
angelox\|laptop	ouch... Version: unknown	04:00
Sc0rpius	really?	04:00
angelox\|laptop	yes! (LOL) let me reboot	04:00
MohammadAG	Sc0rpius, PR1.3 is exactly that	04:00
MohammadAG	the CSSU doesn't change that cause the ovi store is epic and doesn't handle other versions	04:01
Sc0rpius	haha	04:01
Sc0rpius	didn't know that	04:01
Sc0rpius	I never heard of a case where the version is unknown	04:02
MohammadAG	sometimes it gets unset	04:02
FIQ\|n900	<MohammadAG> the CSSU doesn't change that cause the ovi store is epic and doesn't handle other versions	04:02
FIQ\|n900	wat	04:02
angelox\|laptop	osso-product-info says unknown too	04:02
MohammadAG	if we change the version number the ovi store would break	04:02
FIQ\|n900	why...?	04:03
MohammadAG	angelox\|laptop, dpkg -l mp-fremantle-*	04:03
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MohammadAG	cause the store's retarded	04:03
FIQ\|n900	indeed, if that is true...	04:03
Sc0rpius	if he's not in PR1.2 and the version is unset the upgrade popup will never appear, right?	04:03
angelox\|laptop	MohammadAG: 20.2010.36-2	04:04
MohammadAG	if the package isn't present yes	04:04
MohammadAG	angelox\|laptop, latest version	04:04
MohammadAG	feel free to run /var/lib/dpkg/info/mp-fremantle-generic-pr.postinst	04:04
Sc0rpius	that will fix his problems?	04:04
MohammadAG	osso-product-info -s OSSO_VERSION="RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_MR0" 2> /dev/null \|\| exit 0	04:05
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Sc0rpius	what's that \|\| exit 0 for	04:05
Sc0rpius	:)	04:05
angelox\|laptop	MohammadAG: should i flash whole my firmware image to don't get any problem?	04:05
MohammadAG	idk, it's the postinst not me :P	04:05
Sc0rpius	no	04:05
Sc0rpius	angelox\|laptop, no	04:05
MohammadAG	no	04:05
Sc0rpius	just run the post install script like MohammadAG said	04:05
angelox\|laptop	Oh three "no"..ok i'll do it	04:06
angelox\|laptop	:_	04:06
angelox\|laptop	:) *	04:06
angelox\|laptop	MohammadAG: i have only:/var/lib/dpkg/info/mp-fremantle-generic-pr.list	04:07
MohammadAG	osso-product-info -s OSSO_VERSION="RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_MR0" 2> /dev/null	04:08
Sc0rpius	that's weird	04:09
angelox\|laptop	ok..	04:09
Sc0rpius	yeah just do that and your phone will be 100% ok	04:09
Sc0rpius	and type it EXACTLY like that!	04:10
FIQ\|n900	sure about that?	04:10
Sc0rpius	about what exactly?	04:10
FIQ\|n900	about it being OK	04:10
angelox\|laptop	i joint to irc to copy and paste on my n900	04:10
Sc0rpius	no, but that's what all support IT guys say all the time	04:10
FIQ\|n900	as it for some reason didn't do it right from the beginning	04:10
Sc0rpius	you don't need to do that angelox\|laptop	04:10
Sc0rpius	it's better to SSH from your PC to your phone	04:10
Sc0rpius	and then copy paste it there	04:10
angelox\|laptop	ah yes...i forgot that :)	04:11
angelox\|laptop	thank you	04:11
angelox\|laptop	FIQ\|n900: ?	04:11
FIQ\|n900	nvm	04:12
angelox\|laptop	ok	04:12
angelox\|laptop	i didn't know the ctcp version,only ctcp time...	04:12
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angelox\|laptop	thank you,worked	04:17
Sc0rpius	:)	04:20
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* angelox\|laptop liked the N900,but it didn't like me :(		04:23
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infobot	DocScrutinizer: infobot joined!	05:33
DocScrutinizer	~botsnack	05:33
infobot	:), DocScrutinizer	05:33
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DocScrutinizer	yay	05:34
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clifton	Is it possible to send text messages to a cell phone using my Nokia N900 if I don't have a SIM card?	05:36
SpeedEvil	No.	05:36
SpeedEvil	Well - yes	05:36
SpeedEvil	If you use a web-text service of some form and wifi	05:36
SpeedEvil	Or USB network	05:36
DocScrutinizer	:-)	05:36
clifton	Thanks	05:38
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DocScrutinizer	even some SIP providers allow that, but you'd need a SIP client that can send INFO messages then	05:39
DocScrutinizer	so for I only know of twinkle, and that's not running on maemo	05:39
DocScrutinizer	so far*	05:40
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SpeedEvil	http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/439717632-3-6-inch-dual-sim-cards-Slider-and-QWERT-keyboard-input-FM-radio-N950-mobile-phone-wholesalers.html	06:22
ds3	Is that a Nokla product?	06:23
Seablade	didn't take long for chinese knockoffs	06:24
SpeedEvil	Well - I'll let you guess on that one.	06:24
bindi	fake	06:24
Seablade	Well considering it has pics of at least 2 different phones listed, yea Ill go with fake trying to rip you off;)	06:25
wmarone_	nah, not a Nokla	06:25
Hurrian	surprising that chinese symbian knockoffs work as good as the real symbian	06:25
wmarone_	it's quite clearly spelled "Nokia"	06:25
wmarone_	hehe	06:25
wmarone_	with a DROID 2 knockoff design	06:25
DocScrutinizer	moo	06:36
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Hurrian	moo	06:38
Hurrian	Doc: heard of anyone unpacking that M6 root filesystem?	06:38
Hurrian	hmm, i don't think rootfs.lzo is a ubifs dump a la m5 root	06:42
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DocScrutinizer	Hurrian: not yet, other than on device ;-)	06:59
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DocScrutinizer	wmarone_: are you sure about the spelling? seen several Nokla phones ;-P	07:02
Hurrian	Doc: this lzo file sure is odd	07:02
Hurrian	after forcibly adding the magic i get header corrupted	07:03
Hurrian	mmm, let's try prepending the magic instead	07:03
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Termana	good morning	07:07
opdf2	is it 1gb physical ram on n9?	07:07
Termana	opdf2, AFAIK yes	07:07
opdf2	meego multitask looks awesome	07:07
dymaxion	is it me or am I spending far too much time hunting down every N9 teaser video and watching them over and over again! How sad! :-)	07:08
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opdf2	i really hope there's room for 4 great OSes	07:11
opdf2	dymaxion: you saw gsmarena's first look?	07:11
dymaxion	yep... I can't wait to get one.. hopefully in HK they will bring em out early... I'll be straight down the Nokia store to play :-)	07:12
opdf2	too bad they closed Nokia flagships stores in usa	07:12
dymaxion	really.. that's a shame...	07:12
dymaxion	in Asia they still have very strong brand	07:12
dymaxion	it's a shame ppl have been moving to HTC etc... my other half has a Sony Experia arc, and I've got a temporary (HTC Aria) broken... poor call quality , poor build..	07:13
dymaxion	after a while the OS gets completely boring and cameras always disappoint... bring on the N9... ! (Unfortuantely my N8 died after 4 months)	07:14
dymaxion	dead N8 <--- was my own fault... trying to use Maps, lost on a mountain during a tropical rainstorm which was more like a power-shower! :-)	07:16
opdf2	loving the pentaband umts	07:16
opdf2	need to see more pentaband devices	07:16
dymaxion	yep... I get frustrated that Nokia don't market that aspect	07:16
dymaxion	in fact they are rubbish at marketing their best features... if only they have Jobs' hypnotic presentations...	07:17
dymaxion	waching marko Ahtisaari's presentation was a bit painful... so many long pauses, dead pan face etc.	07:17
opdf2	yeah Apple's foray into physical retail store space is astounding	07:19
opdf2	something Sony and Nokia have tried and failed in america	07:19
opdf2	Nokia deserves better marketing soo badly	07:20
dymaxion	would it be fair to say there's a bit of "home" support because Apple is US company?	07:20
opdf2	yes	07:20
opdf2	its hard to change the usa's state of mind on Nokia.. the brand is recognized as cheap in usa	07:21
dymaxion	I think the US mentality is very different from Europe... I'm from UK originally, and we find American marketing lacking subtlety, and too many superlatives on matters of to little substance	07:21
opdf2	americans are easily subdued by marketing tricks	07:22
dymaxion	and the reason is that US carriers have always controlled Nokia, not allowing their top phones on the market etc unless on punitive contact terms for Nokia.. I find it strange that ppl in the USA don't realise how far behind (mobile networks) they are vs rest of Europe/Asia	07:22
dymaxion	you seem to be immune! :-)	07:22
Hurrian	lzop: rootfs.lzo: you need a newer version of lzop	07:23
Hurrian	uuuuuuuuuugh	07:23
opdf2	unfortunately i dont see N9 succeeding in usa unless subsidized	07:24
opdf2	jeez even then, i dont think anyone can break iphone's hypnotic powers	07:25
opdf2	only major carriers that carry the iphone can survive in usa	07:26
Hurrian	why do people love the iphone?	07:26
dymaxion	yes it drives me mad... ppl using the iphone camera and thinking it's the best thing on the planet, or wondering why reception is bad and blaming the network, but I stand next to them with my N8 and no problem... etc.	07:26
opdf2	=(((	07:27
Hurrian	it's extremely overpriced, the camera is the shittiest 5MP i've ever seen, battery life is meh, and the screen has terrible viewing angles	07:27
dymaxion	then I see low light photos on the iphone... and it's rubbish... i have done a lot of photos on my other half's Experia Arc... again worlds apart... hypnotised :-(	07:27
opdf2	majority of people don't care about all that	07:28
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dymaxion	yes viewing angles... ppl would care if they realised!	07:28
dymaxion	they get annoyed and think it's normal...	07:28
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opdf2	ios is monkey easy to use, smooth, streamlined experience...and the hardware is a fashion accessory	07:28
opdf2	+ marketing is no fail	07:29
dymaxion	I wonder about the software stack on N9 though.. whether meego allows deep linking between apps as Mango has... I think inter-woven apps is key to a functional OS	07:29
opdf2	mango is great too... i dont want to see duopoly os	07:29
Hurrian	reminds me of the iFruitphone in GTA IV: no buttons, no reception, no storage capacity, all ego	07:30
Hurrian	actually, i cant believe they predicted "no reception" right	07:30
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dymaxion	also iOS clever lock in.... proprietary connectors... ! my mates have spend hundreds of pounds on accessories... docks, speakers etc.. don't want to move away from iOS cos that will all be wasted	07:30
dymaxion	then charged to license use of the proprietary connectors...	07:31
Hurrian	herp da dee derp, i love laughing at people who bought expensive-ass Bose docks way back when and now on the iphone, they're "unauthorized accessories"	07:31
Hurrian	does anyone still remember what a 3.5 is?	07:31
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Hurrian	lzop: rootfs.lzo: header corrupted (checksum error)	07:41
Hurrian	rrrrrrraaaaaaage	07:41
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DocScrutinizer	LOL	09:04
* SpeedEvil fails at lollery.		09:05
SpeedEvil	Also sleep.	09:05
DocScrutinizer	so sleep!	09:06
SpeedEvil	Can't sleep, clowns will eat me.	09:06
DocScrutinizer	while I did some updates to your new wikipage :-)	09:07
* DocScrutinizer wonders how long it will take til finally can get service of some 14 y o dude brings the shopping from supermarket, on a phonecall - here in friggin Germany		09:10
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khertan	Morning all !	10:32
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DocScrutinizer	~moo	11:00
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass		11:00
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dm8tbr	mood groaning	11:03
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DocScrutinizer	morning dm8tbr	11:35
DocScrutinizer	anybody else getting "java exception: nullpointer" for this probably interesting address? https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=1462104	11:36
Termana	DocScrutinizer, it says "You are not authorized to access this page"	11:36
dm8tbr	'you're not authorized...'	11:36
Termana	DocScrutinizer, am I about to v& by the US feds?	11:36
Termana	to be*	11:36
Termana	shiiite, there's a white van outside	11:37
dm8tbr	they'll want to make sure and nuke you from orbit	11:37
DocScrutinizer	nonsense, these are the long-to-disclose parts of Nokia's FCC approval for N9(50?)	11:38
DocScrutinizer	https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=339630&fcc_id=%27LJPRM-680%27	11:38
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DocScrutinizer	external photos External Photos 05/10/2011 pdf 06/24/2011 (<-- date-available)	11:39
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: If I follow the link from the second URL I get a null pointer too now	11:39
DocScrutinizer	so is it still yesterday in that par of USA where FCC resides?	11:40
DocScrutinizer	my clock shows 2011-06-24 here	11:41
dm8tbr	mh, by now it should be past midnight everywhere but alaska IIRC	11:41
DocScrutinizer	manual Users Manual 05/10/2011 pdf 06/24/2011 >:-(	11:41
dm8tbr	oh, also past midnight in alaska too	11:42
dm8tbr	no excuses then	11:42
DocScrutinizer	well, FCC never hurries or rushes things	11:42
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dm8tbr	prolly an official has to push some buttons and move some levers manually	11:43
jonwil	bah, my code wont run	11:43
jonwil	The binary just gives a segfault and I cant work out why	11:44
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DocScrutinizer	https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=1462101 Request for confidentiality Cover Letter(s) >> Pursuant to Sections 0.457 (d) (l) (ii) and 0.459 of the Commission’s Rules, the Applicant hereby requests confidential treatment of some of the information accompanying this Application of FCC ID: LJPRM-680 and as outlined below: - - - Exhibit 4: Block Diagram Exhibit 5: Schematic Diagrams Exhibit 12: Theory of	11:44
DocScrutinizer	Operation / Description of Circuitry<<< GRRRRRR >:-(	11:44
Termana	Hmm, I can't even access that	11:45
Termana	They all tell me I'm not authorised	11:45
DocScrutinizer	seems direct links don't work	11:45
DocScrutinizer	https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=339630&fcc_id='LJPRM-680'	11:45
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DocScrutinizer	try this	11:46
jonwil	Anyone know how to tell why my binary might be segfaulting?	11:46
jonwil	Its just basically an empty cpp file	11:46
DocScrutinizer	lol	11:47
DocScrutinizer	wrong type of runtime libs	11:47
DocScrutinizer	?	11:47
jonwil	well I am running the standard N900 install fully updated	11:47
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DocScrutinizer	arm ELF on x86?	11:49
jonwil	ARM	11:49
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jonwil	this is an ARM ELF running on my N900	11:49
DocScrutinizer	doublecheck	11:49
jonwil	its definatly ARM	11:49
jonwil	since gcc -v says its ARM	11:50
DocScrutinizer	hmm	11:50
jonwil	and since scratchbox says "FREMANTLE_ARMEL"	11:50
DocScrutinizer	I'd use file nevertheless	11:50
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DocScrutinizer	also strace should usually help a lot, no?	11:50
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dm8tbr	It's much more fun if you have a binary compiled for the wrong libc.	11:51
DocScrutinizer	even gdb if nothing else	11:51
dm8tbr	then you can try to run it and it will say 'File not found'	11:51
jonwil	file says "ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped	11:51
DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: that's what I meant	11:51
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jonwil	where do I get strace for the N900?	11:52
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: strace it	11:52
DocScrutinizer	tools repo	11:52
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Debugging	11:53
nid0	not enough's ssl secured tbh	11:55
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Installation	11:55
nid0	oops	11:55
jonwil	http://pastebin.com/w9YqtS5y	11:56
jonwil	Thats what strace has to say	11:56
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jonwil	aha, I found it, somehow its transmitting as ascii	12:01
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DocScrutinizer	looks very strange	12:09
MohammadAG	anyone doing Maemo 5 devel with Qt might find these classes interesting https://gitorious.org/maemo5-foss-lockscreen/enhanced-lockscreen/trees/master/backends	12:10
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lardman\|gone	Jaffa: re build targets, yeah I noticed that	12:12
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lardman	morning all	12:12
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jonwil	I think I might have a solution to bug 8347...	12:16
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	12:16
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Jaffa	lardman: I didn't get a chance to expand on it last night.	12:25
Jaffa	lardman: Instead I was busy trying to build a Harmattan app for qgil to run :)	12:26
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lardman	Jaffa: no worries	12:26
lardman	I'm going to try some coding this weekend, assuming I can set up the SDK off line	12:27
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MohammadAG	Harmattan SDK installer is an online installer	12:32
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jonwil	There are manual setup steps	12:33
MohammadAG	where?	12:34
Termana	There better be, otherwise I will rage	12:35
Termana	:p	12:35
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RST38h	Yaahooo: http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Blogs/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2011/06/23/nokia-meego-1.2-harmattan-qt-quick-components	12:37
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lardman	urgh, online, that's a pita	12:39
lardman	it's Python though, so I guess I could download the components and do an offline install	12:40
lardman	or I can curse TalkTalk for not getting on with my phone line + broadband	12:40
jonwil	http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Platform_Guide/Troubleshooting_Harmattan_Platform_SDK/Installing_Harmattan_Platform_SDK_manually	12:40
jonwil	That should be it	12:41
Jaffa	RST38h: Fantastic news isn't it, on Qt Quick Components :-)	12:42
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jonwil	The only problem I had getting the Harmattan SDK going was that Gentoo is missing a package for scratchbox-devkit-hashutils-squeeze-sdk	12:43
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MohammadAG	Jaffa, thoughts on QML and Qt components?	12:45
MohammadAG	before I start rewriting Sociality :p	12:45
RST38h	Jaffa: It is	12:47
RST38h	Jaffa: The whole thing has a sense of finality to it though	12:47
lardman	thanks jonwil	12:49
RST38h	Meanwhile: http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/24/nokias-android-flirtations-revealed/	12:50
* lardman heads off to Bristol for the day, see you all later		12:51
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Jaffa	MohammadAG: QML good. Qt Components - API looks good, but not tried using in anger yet.	12:54
MohammadAG	so should I make the switch for Harmattan?	12:57
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MohammadAG	yay figured out how to restart X	13:00
jonwil	I wish I could get this thing to properly debug libcsd-sms.so or libsms.so	13:01
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jonwil	if I could single step the code in libsms or libcsd-sms, I would have this licked no problems	13:05
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divan	Have anyone seen the Boost libraries build for Maemo?	13:10
gri	Meegotouch applications by default have a home and back button. When using the "blanco" (n9) theme, the back button is hidden and the toolbar moves to bottom. Does the same behaviour also apply to the qml-components or do I manually have to find out whether I should place the toolbar on top or bottom and create/hide specific buttons?	13:13
MohammadAG	I'm also interested in that	13:16
mikkov	divan: in Extras, even multiple version	13:17
mikkov	s	13:17
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khertan	MohammadAG: until you didn't have need for advanced text manipulation ... qml is not too bad	13:19
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khertan	MohammadAG: also be carreful to not load use qml native component for loading things. The user agent isn't properly set and so it s didn't work on 3G with many phone isp	13:20
MohammadAG	khertan, you mean QWebView in QML?	13:21
khertan	MohammadAG: http://gitorious.org/maenews <- works on wifi, not over 3G	13:21
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khertan	MohammadAG: qwebview, XmlListModel, and everything that made call to a QNetworkFactory	13:22
MohammadAG	what if I use C++ for the backend and QML for the UI?	13:23
khertan	MohammadAG: it ll be fix quickly, it s a well know bug	13:23
khertan	MohammadAG: it ll be ok as you can set the useragent in the qnetworkfactory qnetworkrequest in c++	13:24
gri	by the way: Is there a way that ListView etc. completely load the model instead of creating delegates while scrolling? (For scrollbar reasons)	13:28
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MohammadAG	gri, not sure but I think qmltube does it	13:30
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gri	MohammadAG: I'll take a look at that, not sure if it only creates a flickable and stacks the items or something like that	13:31
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jonwil	bah, I cant get this working	13:32
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jonwil	I cant get the debugger to stop on the function I want it to stop on	13:34
jonwil	so I can see whats going on with this code	13:34
jonwil	and what the numbers look like :(	13:34
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jonwil	bah I give up	13:53
DocScrutinizer	(<jonwil> I think I might have a solution to bug 8347...) what? really?	13:53
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	13:53
jonwil	If I could just get the debugger to stop on sms_gsm_cb_routing_ntf I might be able to see whats going on	13:54
jonwil	If I can debug the .asm for it I can verify my theories of how the data looks	13:54
jonwil	and can see if in fact my potential fix idea is fesable	13:54
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, why doesn't gdb work?	13:56
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DocScrutinizer	It's supposed to stop at breakpoints you've set	13:57
jonwil	The problem I have is that libcsd-sms.so (and hence libsms.so) is loaded dynamically	13:57
jonwil	so its hard to get GDB to stop on it	13:57
DocScrutinizer	of course I guess debugging .so is a bit more tricky	13:57
DocScrutinizer	indeed, you'd need to debug the process that loads the .so	13:58
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jonwil	aha, I have an idea	13:59
vi__	so do I, get some golf clubs and meet me on the roof in 20 minutes.	14:00
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DocScrutinizer	those not interested in golf can meet me in the beergarden down the street in 5 min	14:01
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jonwil	finally, I have what should be a breakpoint where I want it	14:12
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jonwil	ok, I think I know whats going on	14:21
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jonwil	Whats the correct command for apt-get to say "I dont care what version I have, re-download it anyway"?	14:35
psycho_oreos	apt-get install --reinstall ?	14:36
jonwil	thanks	14:36
jonwil	thats what I needed	14:36
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psycho_oreos	nw	14:36
jonwil	now I can be sure my libcsd-sms.so file isn't busted	14:36
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jonwil	ok, I now have a proper libsms.so with my one byte change in place	14:42
jonwil	now I just need the tower to send me another CBSMS	14:44
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jonwil	ok, NOW the tower decides not to send me a CBSMS	14:48
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jonwil	one more CBSMS and I can verify that my fix is the right solution at this point	15:03
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jonwil	Thankyou to nokia for harmattanbeta\libsms0_i386.deb for letting me see how the CBS code works on harmattan and that my fix for Maemo is on the right track :)	15:08
jonwil	I just hope all this starting and stopping of CSD isn't putting my phone at risk somehow	15:09
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jonwil	If I could find out how to decode a CBSMS or the SMS alphabet, I could verify that what dbus just sent my dbus test program is correct	15:12
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edheldil	what fix are you working on?	15:23
jonwil	bug 8347	15:23
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	15:23
jonwil	I have a dump of what should be a cell broadcast SMS	15:23
jonwil	but I need some code or something to decode the actual message to see if its valid	15:23
jonwil	i.e. if the data decodes to a valid looking string	15:24
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SpeedEvil	jonwil: have you looked at the osmocom or whatever the acronym mailing listsl?/	15:42
jonwil	currently playing with some ofono code	15:42
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* khertan currently playing ... hum not ... qml isn't funny ...		15:46
* khertan trying to resolve that : http://lists.qt.nokia.com/pipermail/qt-qml/2011-June/002745.html		15:46
jonwil	If this decodes properly, then all we need for cbsms to work should be a one-byte change to libsms.so plus a userspace daemon to wire up to the IncomingCBS signal	15:47
jonwil	I mean userspace widget	15:47
SpeedEvil	jonwil: http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ - and the coresponding	15:47
jonwil	which can do something with the incoming SMS	15:47
vi__	:wq	15:47
vi__	:Q	15:47
vi__	:q!	15:47
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SpeedEvil	open source base station project	15:47
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jonwil	ok, ofono test code is correct	15:48
jonwil	I see output of EastVicPark which seems to be correct	15:50
jonwil	that reflects a suburb near where I live which I assume is the nearest Optus GSM tower	15:50
SpeedEvil	:)	15:50
jonwil	or the one that the phone has decided to talk to anyway	15:50
SpeedEvil	You took a break from this?	15:50
jonwil	yes I took a break for a while	15:51
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jonwil	it was only yesterday when I started playing with harmattan-beta-SDK and specifically the libsms0 i386 package that was included	15:51
SpeedEvil	Ah	15:51
SpeedEvil	Tried applying for harmattan dev?	15:52
jonwil	nope, not interested in harmattan	15:52
jonwil	interested in maemo	15:52
jonwil	fremantle	15:52
jonwil	since thats what my hardware runs	15:52
jonwil	only value of harmattan-beta-sdk is info to help with understanding fremantle	15:53
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SpeedEvil	I was meaning for hw.	15:53
SpeedEvil	but yes.	15:53
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jonwil	I dont want or need new hardware :)	15:53
SpeedEvil	Still keeping my n900 for a while.	15:53
jonwil	of note is that harmattan SDK contains libbmeipc-dev package for harmattan version of bme/libbmeipc	15:53
SpeedEvil	Wondering, as in principle your skillz might be useful for n950/n9/	15:54
khertan	jonwil: think of it two time ... as many have problem with sim recognition in their n900	15:54
xd13	is meego going to be community supported like maemo ?	15:55
khertan	i doubt mine used all days will last for 1 more year	15:55
SpeedEvil	xd13: Meego - yes.	15:55
khertan	xd13: there is already a community edition for n900 :)	15:55
SpeedEvil	xd13: Harmattan - that's another question	15:55
xd13	huh	15:55
xd13	isn't meego harmattan ?	15:55
xd13	i thought it was one word	15:55
khertan	there is more chance of a MeeGo community edition ... than maemo harmattan and fremantle	15:56
SpeedEvil	Harmattan is meego in some ways.	15:56
xd13	chances are i will b buying n9	15:56
SpeedEvil	Harmattan forked from meego 12 monthsish ago	15:56
khertan	SpeedEvil: oh ... really ?	15:56
khertan	it s 1.2 ?	15:56
SpeedEvil	yes.	15:56
SpeedEvil	It's a mash of meego + maemo components.	15:57
khertan	hum ... oh it could be 1.2, as it was forked 12 month ago ...	15:57
khertan	:(	15:57
chem\|st	khertan: it is 1.2 upwards	15:57
chem\|st	after 1.3 they moved most devel people to it	15:58
jonwil	From looking at the SDK, most of the lower level bits are still the closed-source Maemo bits	15:58
chem\|st	or was it 1.2 already?	15:58
xd13	all i know is depending on the price of the n9 when it comes out i'll either wait for a price drop or purchase	15:58
jonwil	cell stack for example	15:58
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Indeed.	15:58
jonwil	Give me an N9 with the keyboard and touchscreen of the N900 (stylus included) and sell it at retail and I will be VERY interested	15:58
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chem\|st	jonwil: n950 devel is it	15:59
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SpeedEvil	jonwil: An open n9 with perhaps a reverse engineered security framework and android...	15:59
SpeedEvil	alien-android	15:59
xd13	n950 man they rly need 2 put that out for people 2 purchase	15:59
Corsac	RE security framework? why so?	15:59
chem\|st	sadly we wont see any resistive screens any time soon again	15:59
SpeedEvil	xd13: ++	15:59
BCMM	the keyboard is important. the n900 is the smallest netbook i've ever seen; phone calls are a bonus	15:59
khertan	jonwil: welcome to the club	15:59
chem\|st	BCMM: +1	16:00
khertan	keyboard is essential	16:00
jonwil	The N950 is good for dev but no good as a daily use phone	16:00
SpeedEvil	Corsac: Well - I'm going off some of Doc's comments - I haven't investigated exactly how the scurity framework will work.	16:00
khertan	jonwil: ?	16:00
SpeedEvil	jonwil: ?	16:00
xd13	i don't know, if n900 didn't have phone capability i would probably have an android phone right now and no n900	16:00
xd13	jonwil wut y not?	16:00
Corsac	Doc doesn't have a clue about security, the only thing he sees is DRM	16:00
SpeedEvil	jonwil: I don't personally see why.	16:00
* khertan think that MeeGo community edition is better and better		16:00
jonwil	I mean that because its not possible to replace, if you use it as a daily phone and its damaged, stolen or otherwise has problems, you are in trouble	16:00
* khertan will probably not switch to android ... due to poor python support		16:00
* SpeedEvil needs to try installing meego CE		16:00
xd13	thats y u need to take care of ur phone	16:01
jonwil	yeah I do take care	16:01
xd13	i've had n900 since its rls in 2009	16:01
jonwil	but things happen beyond my control	16:01
SpeedEvil	khertan: I don't mean switching to android - I mean to be able to run externals	16:01
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Ah	16:01
xd13	its in mint condition right now	16:01
xd13	i never put a screen protector on it so a few slight marks but except for that perfect	16:01
chem\|st	khertan: python... what about uploading your personal data to google...	16:01
SpeedEvil	xd13: You can take care of the phone, and it can still develop wierd faults.	16:01
xd13	very true	16:01
SpeedEvil	Also - the hinge looks damn fragile to me.	16:01
xd13	but n900 has been like a godsend to me	16:02
SpeedEvil	Can anyone comment on how the hinge feels?	16:02
khertan	mine was dropped three from 1,5 meter on floor without impact :)	16:02
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xd13	as much as i love a keyboard i'm thinking if i could get used to on screen buttons...........i will miss the keyboardi think	16:02
* khertan think n900 will be the perfect device with more ram and larger screen		16:02
khertan	exactly what is n950	16:02
xd13	ya	16:02
xd13	and better screen	16:03
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N950	16:03
khertan	n900 screen is pretty good	16:03
SpeedEvil	See that - for diffenences	16:03
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xd13	can someone explain to me tft and olded so i don't have 2 look it up, i rly should know it but i don't	16:04
xd13	and which is better	16:04
khertan	non-Zeiss f/2.2, 28mm focal kength, 10cm to inf. focus <<< so this is why they abandon it !	16:04
SpeedEvil	OLED is LED based	16:04
SpeedEvil	khertan: ?	16:04
khertan	SpeedEvil: speculation	16:04
SpeedEvil	It emits light. It is more efficient at low amounts of white on screen	16:04
SpeedEvil	khertan: Yes - I'm failing to parse that as a sentance with meaning	16:05
xd13	is one better than the other or r there good/bad to both sides ?	16:05
SpeedEvil	Due to the use of different display technologies, on the N9, developers should avoid one pixel width fonts(?) and graphical objects with lines one pixel wide. Also avoid the extensive use of bright colors, especially white, when developing for OLED displays as this increases the power consumption (typical for OLED displays).	16:05
lcuk	SpeedEvil,	16:05
lcuk	single pixel use is tricky to use in a ux that involves scaling	16:06
lcuk	and also smudges muchly	16:06
lcuk	when you AA it	16:06
SpeedEvil	It's not that simple.	16:07
SpeedEvil	If you're doing AA, you need to know the hardware layout, and deal with it	16:07
jonwil	ok, so should I post my Cell Broadcast SMS findings to the mailing list?	16:07
SpeedEvil	Any arrangement that attempts to do AA without knowuing the pixel orientation and setup fails hard	16:07
xd13	aa ?	16:07
SpeedEvil	Anti-Aliasing	16:08
xd13	ah	16:08
lcuk	SpeedEvil, of course	16:08
lcuk	but I did some testing earlier this yyear	16:08
jonwil	ok, will post to the mailing list then	16:08
lcuk	and was very vocal about the issues of lines	16:08
BCMM	SpeedEvil: surely it's OK provided you don't attempt subpixel hinting?	16:08
BCMM	(which is a recipe for ugly and headaches anyway)	16:08
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xd13	wut r the chances nokia is just teasing us about n950 ?	16:09
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lcuk	SpeedEvil, single thickness clock: http://liqbase.net/liq.20110313_051154.ciroclock.scr.png then panned onto a "desktop" http://liqbase.net/liq.20110320_032054.liqbase-playground.scr.png then the fremantle same http://liqbase.net/Screenshot-20110314-225450.png	16:12
lcuk	SpeedEvil, unless realtime rendering of single thickness lines can be done everywhere their recommendation is right.	16:12
SpeedEvil	They can't.	16:12
SpeedEvil	I was meaning that 'AA' - can make thins much worse if you just try to pretend it's a simple triplet display.	16:13
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lcuk	SpeedEvil, http://alienryderflex.com/sub_pixel/	16:15
SpeedEvil	err - no	16:18
chem\|st	we need to get people not to buy N9s...	16:18
SpeedEvil	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PenTile_Matrix_Family	16:18
BCMM	see, i don't know if my eyes are weird or what, but i see obvious coloured fringes in the subpixel example	16:18
BCMM	and it's horrible	16:18
xd13	what is nfc ?	16:18
chem\|st	near field communications	16:18
xd13	which is ?	16:19
chem\|st	payment method	16:19
xd13	oh wow that thing	16:19
MohammadAG	saying it's a payment method isn't exactly right :p	16:19
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chem\|st	its a chip that can do what the name sais, prolly used for payment and other things	16:19
dm8tbr	nfc is rfid on steroids	16:20
dm8tbr	and it's just that	16:20
chem\|st	MohammadAG: yeah but for users it is just that	16:20
dm8tbr	if you want payments, that's a protocol on top of that involving smart-card chips etc	16:20
chem\|st	dm8tbr: growing muscels?	16:20
xd13	don't need it	16:20
chem\|st	or breasts?	16:20
MohammadAG	nope	16:20
MohammadAG	the N9 can pair bluetooth devices with NFC	16:20
MohammadAG	or send photos	16:20
dm8tbr	chem\|st: making it think it's stronger than it is ;)	16:20
MohammadAG	devs can use it to send crap	16:21
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dm8tbr	does the n9 have nfc with secure element?	16:21
chem\|st	MohammadAG: yeah it is another BT only working on close range	16:21
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chem\|st	nfc is said to do the same as BT was said...	16:21
chem\|st	but more secure in some way	16:22
SpeedEvil	chem\|st: BT can be read at a hundred meters easily	16:22
SpeedEvil	this may not be desirable for NFC	16:22
BCMM	any short-range thing can probably be done at longer ranges if you have a directional antenna and no respect for following spec	16:23
SpeedEvil	NFC is near-field.	16:23
SpeedEvil	It drops off as 1/r^4, not 1/r^2	16:23
SpeedEvil	So at 10 times the range, the signal is down 10000 times, not 100.	16:24
lcuk	they made a special EM signal?	16:24
SpeedEvil	It's M, not E	16:24
dm8tbr	SpeedEvil: it might couple into objects in the near field though and if your're lucky/unlucky they are resonant...	16:25
SpeedEvil	yes	16:25
SpeedEvil	Simplifying a lot for those that don't understand.	16:25
chem\|st	SpeedEvil: the capabilities payment, data transfer, doorlocks	16:25
SpeedEvil	Depending on stuff.	16:26
nid0	you can be much more inventive with nfc than that though	16:26
chem\|st	SpeedEvil: not talking about hardware though	16:26
SpeedEvil	NFC has a lot of meanings to a lot of people, and the devices do not always interoperate	16:26
nid0	putting my phone on my bedside table and having it go auto silent for the night would be far more useful	16:26
nid0	only takes an nfc sticker on the table	16:26
SpeedEvil	And for the NFC 'reader' to be very low power and active continuously.	16:27
SpeedEvil	Something that I question.	16:27
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jonwil	What makes NFC different to all those transit cards or office door cards that already exist?	16:33
jonwil	other than being built into a phone	16:33
X-Fade	jonwil: you can influence the data.	16:33
jonwil	instead of being a separate card	16:33
SpeedEvil	jonwil: It's a reader too	16:34
jonwil	oh nice	16:34
SpeedEvil	I suspect in practice 'our'a ccess to it will be very strongly limited for seciruty reasons.	16:35
jonwil	I posted all my Cell Broadcast SMS stuff to the devel mailing list	16:35
RST38h	Meanwhile: A Russian woman died of a heart attack at her own funeral, after waking up to find praying mourners filing past her coffin.	16:36
gri	In the future I also have to put a NFC sticker at my cat when the rfid chip gets old? :D	16:37
jonwil	I look forward to a day when I can pay someone else money right then and there with a card, no need to worry about having to find an ATM to get cash from or hoping the other guy has an expensive merchant account with Visa or MasterCard	16:37
nid0	no particular reason to	16:37
nid0	for purely identifying a chip, nfc has no benefits over rfid	16:38
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SpeedEvil	jonwil: As I understand it the NFC payments thing is _not_ peer-peer	16:38
jonwil	I guess I was thinking of something like Square for iPhone only using the NFC reader already in the phone	16:39
jonwil	and someone finding a way to convince the credit card companies to support it without the need to spend huge bucks on expensive merchant account annual fees etc	16:40
jonwil	but I doubt the credit card companies want to make it easier for Joe Blogs to accept credit cards, the risks are too big	16:40
jonwil	After all, Joe Blogs might really be Joe the fraudster	16:41
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nid0	that would be possible with debit cards, but no way credit cards are going to take the risks on reversible transactions	16:41
jonwil	anyhow, this is a moot point right now as the N900 sitting in front of me has no NFC :P	16:42
jonwil	and I have no need to be able to accept payment from random people in this way	16:42
nid0	device location aspects of nfc are way more interesting to me anyway	16:43
jonwil	I think using NFC as a security device has possibilities, i.e. instead of using your keys to get inside your house, you swipe your phone over the reader and the door unlocks.	16:44
jonwil	Although given that there have been alternatives to standard keys for years and very few houses use them, I doubt that's a big market	16:44
nid0	the problem is that door unlocks with alternative methods generally also have a key for backup	16:45
nid0	which makes the alternative method kind of redundant as the lock may as well not have it and remain just as pickable	16:45
jonwil	Personally I would err on the side of security and not have key backup at all	16:46
nid0	most people dont like, for example, being locked in/out of their house if there's a power cut though	16:46
nid0	or if the reader breaks	16:46
nid0	or if their phone breaks	16:46
jonwil	Thats why you power the lock with both batteries and mains	16:46
nid0	etc	16:46
jonwil	If the mains goes off, the batteries kick in	16:47
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divan	Is there any QtDesigner/Creator plugins for Maemo-specific widgets(like Maemo5ValueButton)?	16:47
nid0	and how long's the battery last? my keyed lock can last through an infinite-length power outage	16:47
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jonwil	You can also have an external plug where you can connect standard off-the-shelf batteries in case of emergency	16:47
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nid0	you're then introducing weaknesses into the lock and housing	16:48
jonwil	true	16:48
jonwil	but ultimatly if you want more security than a standard keyed lock, you have to give up something somewhere	16:49
SpeedEvil	jonwil: The other issue is that what happens if the n9 battery dies	16:49
jonwil	Thats a good point	16:49
nid0	swipey card locks and similar are great for looking fancy, but theyre generally shitty for actual security because theyre either bypassable by design or risk being unopenable with failures either in the lock or device unlocking it	16:49
jonwil	swipe card locks are best in environments where you need to give a bunch of different people keys and you want auditing and logging	16:50
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jonwil	hence why office buildings use them	16:50
jonwil	and hotels use them	16:51
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nid0	another key reason places like them use them though is there're people on hand if the lock suddenly doesnt work for any reason	16:51
RST38h	And they are also generally perfect for unlocking doors with a credit card pushed into the gap between the door and the frame	16:51
nid0	where if you come home at 3am for a night out and the lock fails you're shit out of luck	16:51
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nid0	this building errs on the side of caution with it's rfid entry doors, it has several that relevant fobs will work on and uses magnetic locks	16:53
nid0	the downside ofc being powercut = doors all unlocked	16:53
jonwil	Auto-open-on-powercut tends to be mandated for safety reasons	16:55
khertan	(15:48:46) SpeedEvil: jonwil: The other issue is that what happens if the n9 battery dies <<< nfc can work without battery	16:55
jonwil	although auto-open-on-fire-alarm also seems to be mandated	16:55
nid0	precisely, but on a house it equals a great way to bypass the lock :P	16:55
SpeedEvil	khertan: yes, it can.	16:55
SpeedEvil	khertan: The question is - what does it do without power - implementations vary.	16:56
SpeedEvil	khertan: Does it rely on a back-end to do the right thing - for example pair with bliuetooth speakers, or open your door, with the NFC chip being a dumb radio.	16:56
* khertan would love to see device with digital print reader for unlocking (but which work fast)		16:56
SpeedEvil	Or are there smarts in the NFC chip that are able to do stuff independantly.	16:56
SpeedEvil	Capacitive screen with resolution to read prints.	16:57
SpeedEvil	khertan: Also - iris recognition	16:57
jonwil	The mythbusters busted fingerprint scanners as a security idea	16:57
jonwil	although iris recognition works	16:57
khertan	iris will be unusable in sun light condition and pretty slow	16:57
jonwil	voice recognition could work	16:58
khertan	jonwil: fingerprint is still better than putting dumb four number code	16:58
SpeedEvil	khertan: It's not slow	16:58
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khertan	SpeedEvil: i mean on an mobile phone	16:58
ruskie	besh security... something you have, something you are and something you know	16:58
SpeedEvil	khertan: ah - yes - you do need to move the camera to the eye	16:58
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SpeedEvil	ruskie: naah.	16:58
SpeedEvil	ruskie: There is _much_ better than that.	16:58
SpeedEvil	Something you have, something you are, and something you don't know.	16:59
* khertan want an integrated stungun		16:59
* ruskie wants a tazer that looks like a phone he can hand off to a mugger and arm it in the process...		16:59
khertan	so someone still your phone ... and detect then thief aren't the trusted user ... and stun it	16:59
nid0	tbh, im happy that the n9 does at least come with theft tracking software	17:00
khertan	and i also an api to activated it to stupid user saying that khweeteur sucks because it s not done in qml	17:00
khertan	nid0: ? there is on ?	17:00
khertan	s/on/one ?	17:00
nid0	yeah, theres a piece of software in the included software list called "track and locate" or sth	17:01
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: WHO? it's been German CCC	17:01
nid0	Key applications: Facebook, Twitter, Skype, Joikuspot Wi-Fi tethering, Accuweather, AP News, Swype, Track and Protect, Galaxy on Fire 2, Real Golf, Angry Birds Magic, Mail, video player, Drive, Feeds, search, calculator, Calendar, Contacts, music player, web browser, messaging, photos, photo editor, Ovi Store, Maps	17:01
DocScrutinizer	not mythbusters	17:01
nid0	"track and protect"	17:01
ruskie	DocScrutinizer, could have been both	17:01
jonwil	Mythbusters busted fingerprint readers in one episode	17:01
ruskie	MythBusters featured it	17:01
jonwil	Others may have busted it also	17:02
khertan	nid0: no NFS Shift ? there is a icon in the theme of this game	17:02
jonwil	but Mythbusters is where I saw it	17:02
DocScrutinizer	mythbusters are the modern 3 stooges	17:02
DocScrutinizer	they busted nothing really	17:02
DocScrutinizer	except the things they blasted away with nitro	17:02
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khertan	didn't never heard of mythbuster	17:02
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nid0	khertan: no idea, thats just the key included software list on the nokia site	17:02
nid0	that list doesnt seem to be all inclusive though, as it doesnt include foursquare either	17:03
nid0	which is specifically mentioned at http://swipe.nokia.com/applications/	17:03
DocScrutinizer	khertan: stuntman and SFX holiwood dudes that pretend to go science	17:03
jonwil	ok, its been good talking about security and N9 and Cell Broadcast SMS but I have a hunger only the Kernel can satisfy so its time to go out and get some food (the success of CBSMS means that I am in a good mood and feeling like junk to celebrate :)	17:03
nid0	though it might just be some will be on ovi rather than preloaded	17:03
jonwil	cya later guys	17:03
nid0	later	17:03
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khertan	nid0: also :)	17:04
DocScrutinizer	sucess???? I obviously missed something	17:04
SpeedEvil	he's decoded a broadcast CBS	17:04
DocScrutinizer	hah	17:04
DocScrutinizer	I could do that probably, with wireshark	17:04
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DocScrutinizer	hope he used sth better	17:05
DocScrutinizer	smarter	17:05
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DocScrutinizer	alas it seems SMSCB is a strictly 2G thing	17:05
DocScrutinizer	never seen any on 3G	17:06
khertan	and it s	17:06
DocScrutinizer	so it's almost getting obsolete?	17:06
khertan	and it s usefull for what ?	17:06
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DocScrutinizer	in Japan they send tsunami warning	17:06
javispedro	omg	17:06
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DocScrutinizer	here you may get homezone notifications	17:06
khertan	hum ... so they can prepare cam ?	17:06
javispedro	do you realize this could mean than the lack of cbsms support in the n900 could have caused indirect tsunami deaths?	17:07
khertan	oh ... this thing that is implemented in all s40 nokia phone which was never working in France	17:07
DocScrutinizer	I'm aware of this	17:07
khertan	and for those not having phone ?	17:07
khertan	it s maybe not frequent in japan ... :)	17:07
DocScrutinizer	those will get a call from you on landline	17:08
DocScrutinizer	or you run over and shake them	17:08
DocScrutinizer	I give a sh** what it's used for, I'm only interested if it's supported or not	17:09
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DocScrutinizer	my first mobile had no SMS support at all - "why do you need that? it's not even working as carriers don't support it here". One year later I was the only one who couldn't text for free	17:10
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DocScrutinizer	(yes, there's been a time where SMS were free, and only when carriers noticed users like it, they started to charge for it)	17:11
nid0	I had a long conversation with a vodafone sales rep once who told me that "cameras are the new thing, but theyll never be available in phones you can get free on contract"	17:11
ruskie	heh	17:12
nid0	12 months later, practically every phone on my o2 contract renewal list had a camera	17:12
ruskie	frankly tha cameras in cell phones even the better ones aren't worth it	17:12
DocScrutinizer	the hackers here wil know where I come from, and why it's stupid to ignore technology on a "who's using it" rationale	17:12
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nid0	sadly though, all the mobile carriers here are largely doing that	17:14
ruskie	hmm is it just me or does qmfmail seem more useless than modest	17:14
DocScrutinizer	ruskie: I dare to differ. I'd friggin useful	17:14
nid0	the 4g spectrum sale that's coming soon is expected to do pretty badly, with the rationale being that people dont use 3g much so why bother with 4g	17:14
SpeedEvil	ruskie: http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/ WFM	17:14
nid0	and they dont get that they arent raking in cash from 3g because it's 1) overpriced 2) shitty coverage and 3) shitty speed	17:15
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ruskie	SpeedEvil, so noisy pic...	17:15
ruskie	http://codemages.net/20110617_001.jpg <-- frankly can't use this for anything much really	17:16
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Hurrian	ruskie, is that from the n900?	17:17
ruskie	DocScrutinizer, ? qmfmail? it didn't even load anything from my INBOX... I expect an IMAP client to get a listing quickly...	17:17
ruskie	Hurrian, yup	17:17
javispedro	meegotouch does too many things	17:17
Hurrian	the n900's camera is terrible in bad lighting conditions	17:17
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ruskie	Hurrian, which 90% of the time there are	17:17
SpeedEvil	yep	17:17
Hurrian	heh	17:17
Hurrian	^^^	17:17
ruskie	even the pics SpeedEvil posted have noise in them	17:18
SpeedEvil	In mediochre light, the default camera app does not do well	17:18
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SpeedEvil	ruskie: And yes, they do.	17:18
Hurrian	speedevil, so does blessn900. i always have to use fcamera to get the shots my N95 used to take	17:18
SpeedEvil	fcam++	17:18
ruskie	frankly I'm looking for a decent always-in-pocket dedicated camera myself	17:19
DocScrutinizer	ruskie: ?? I'm talking about camera	17:19
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ruskie	ahh	17:19
hiemanshu	the only decent cameras are DSLRs	17:20
DocScrutinizer	all my pictures at shae.ovo.com are made by N900 (minus one)	17:20
joga	are there any (free) alternatives to sygic mobile maps if I'd like to have turn by turn car navigation for n900?	17:21
DocScrutinizer	I just don't need a decent cam	17:21
DocScrutinizer	I need a everywhere and always cam	17:21
hiemanshu	DocScrutinizer: DSLR	17:21
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ruskie	hiemanshu, not really	17:22
ruskie	there are good alternatives	17:22
hiemanshu	ruskie: hold on, I'll show you why	17:22
ruskie	fuji actually has good sensors that they stick in some of theirs	17:22
ruskie	they put big sensors in the compacts	17:22
DocScrutinizer	I basically don'T care even if the shots are uggly as my butt	17:22
ruskie	apparently has great low-light properties and low noise	17:22
DocScrutinizer	I need the documentation, not the art and beauty	17:23
ruskie	hiemanshu, also there's a new upstart that has some interesting tech	17:23
hiemanshu	ruskie: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27748502/IMG_4501.JPG	17:23
hiemanshu	thats an unedited pic	17:23
javispedro	aha, so orientation works very much like the pre	17:23
Hurrian	oh, which reminds me, let's put all that wasted space, i mean the back cover to use. optical zoom, anyone?	17:23
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hiemanshu	most POS cameras I have used/have owned are shit, megapixel values barely matter	17:24
Hurrian	^^^	17:24
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javispedro	mikkov: did you build SDL statically on warmux?	17:25
ruskie	hiemanshu, MP above 8 is pointless	17:25
Hurrian	i have a 14.1 MPX sony cam, noisy as f***	17:25
ruskie	the prob is that nobody bothers expanding the colour range and improve noise performance	17:25
ruskie	http://www.lytro.com/ <-- btw that startup	17:25
hiemanshu	ruskie: decent POS cameras are about $200-250, you could instead get a low end DSLR for about $350-400 which will perform much much better	17:25
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ruskie	hiemanshu, I already have a DSLR	17:25
ruskie	I want something I can have in my pocket	17:25
ruskie	and I'm planing on spending 100-200 eur on it	17:26
hiemanshu	#justsaying	17:26
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hiemanshu	ruskie: for POS, canon, fuji, nikon	17:26
hiemanshu	err	17:27
hiemanshu	P&S	17:27
ruskie	hehe	17:27
ruskie	well fuji seems to be the best low-light peformer	17:27
ruskie	though lytro seems interesting as well	17:27
hiemanshu	my mind interperts P&S as POS :P	17:27
ruskie	frankly don't want anything from canikon	17:28
hiemanshu	the only reason there is a camera in my phone is that it comes with one	17:28
hiemanshu	ruskie: well canon and nikon are decent	17:28
hiemanshu	sony and olympus suck	17:28
ruskie	I'm quite happy with the pics my Oly produces	17:29
hiemanshu	I have an old oly too	17:29
hiemanshu	from the 1990s	17:29
ruskie	e-520 here	17:30
hiemanshu	works better than most cameras today	17:30
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Damnshock	hello everybody	17:31
Damnshock	I'm trying to flash the vanilla image	17:31
Damnshock	without success	17:31
Damnshock	I previously installed meego on it	17:31
Hurrian	open kb, start flasher, hold U and connect	17:32
hiemanshu	Damnshock: first flash vanilla image, then eMMC and then again vanilla one	17:32
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Damnshock	Hurrian: I'm trying to but it always boots meego	17:32
ruskie	hah I can get a samsung omnia 7 from my cellco for 140eur... they must be joking...	17:32
hiemanshu	ruskie: I have heard good things about the Canon PowerShot S95	17:33
Hurrian	damnshock, flash the kernel then	17:34
ruskie	the only interest for canon I might have is for use with the custom firmware stuff	17:34
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Damnshock	Hurrian: any link to where I can get?	17:34
ruskie	but frankly when I was comparing pics from various cams... each one tended to skew one colour or another	17:34
hiemanshu	Damnshock: need to flash the fiasco image first, then eMMC and then fiasco again	17:34
Damnshock	mmm hiemanshu I'll try that	17:35
DocScrutinizer	you all noticed the "user" manual for harmattan/N950?	17:35
hiemanshu	Damnshock: dont reboot until the last flash	17:35
DocScrutinizer	available since ~3h	17:35
DocScrutinizer	15 psges pdf	17:35
DocScrutinizer	pages even	17:36
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ruskie	DocScrutinizer, nope? linky	17:36
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DocScrutinizer	see wiki n950 -> FCC registration	17:36
Damnshock	hiemanshu: flashing right now:)	17:36
DocScrutinizer	I'm not posting a direct link here, for some reason	17:36
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GeneralAntilles	http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=23272&postcount=203	17:38
GeneralAntilles	Teehee	17:38
Damnshock	hiemanshu: it reboot by itself :S	17:38
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, did you apply for a devkit?	17:38
hiemanshu	Damnshock: did you use the -R switch?	17:38
javispedro	GeneralAntilles: yep	17:38
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GeneralAntilles	javispedro, out of interest, what project did you put?	17:38
javispedro	GeneralAntilles: I want to see that for myself (the PC swearing ;) )	17:39
Damnshock	hiemanshu: yes, I did :S	17:39
Damnshock	crap, should have done that hehe	17:39
DocScrutinizer	there are also butt ugly exterio photos and rather interesting (for me) internal photos now	17:39
javispedro	GeneralAntilles: I've put some stuff about SDL games.	17:39
GeneralAntilles	community program?	17:39
javispedro	GeneralAntilles: yep, no launchpad account.	17:39
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hiemanshu	Damnshock: well just reflash the eMMC and fiasco now	17:40
GeneralAntilles	Somebody needs to apply with theme hacking in mind.	17:40
javispedro	I'm actually very interested in deciphering how does rotation work and how we can make SDL games first class citizens.	17:40
Damnshock	hiemanshu: I'm going to :)	17:40
GeneralAntilles	Given what konttori has said about the themes.	17:40
DocScrutinizer	of course the internal photos aren't good enough to read a single chip print	17:40
javispedro	GeneralAntilles: agreed, they look awfully complex.	17:41
DocScrutinizer	batery is BL-4D anyway	17:41
GeneralAntilles	ian_r may be applying under theme hacking.	17:41
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Damnshock	hiemanshu: everything seems to have gone fine,booting the device right now. Thanks a lot for your help man!!!	17:51
DocScrutinizer	the USB receptacle looks terribly strange	17:52
hiemanshu	Damnshock: np	17:52
* khertan really hope to catch an n950 ... but have the feeling he will be disapointed ...		17:53
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: SpeedEvil: jacekowski: you might be interested in the shots of N950 internal hw guts	17:53
SpeedEvil	where?	17:53
DocScrutinizer	FCC	17:53
dm8tbr	https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=339630&fcc_id=%27LJPRM-680%27	17:53
SpeedEvil	Oh - I diddn't look through them in detail	17:53
dm8tbr	available since today in the morning	17:54
DocScrutinizer	not early in the morning though :-)	17:54
dm8tbr	ack :)	17:54
dm8tbr	the pictures are fairly low res though	17:54
DocScrutinizer	yep :-S	17:54
DocScrutinizer	no chip labels	17:55
DocScrutinizer	but they removel ALL the cans :-)	17:55
dm8tbr	let's hope some devices surface in the meego tampere community soon	17:55
dm8tbr	then we can have a happy picture session	17:55
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DocScrutinizer	I hope to see one on my desk soon, though I'm undecided if I want to go N900-exploded again	17:56
javispedro	fragile hinge	17:56
DocScrutinizer	yes	17:56
DocScrutinizer	that's why it got rejected by carriers I heard	17:57
SpeedEvil	The hunge looks fragile	17:57
SpeedEvil	I wonder if it really is	17:57
DocScrutinizer	you bet you mustn't sit on THAT device	17:58
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javispedro	stupid grainy photos	17:58
DocScrutinizer	N900 had chances to survive - this NOT	17:58
jonwil	They could have just used the same design as the N900 but with upgraded hardware and OS	17:59
jonwil	i.e. same sliding action	17:59
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dm8tbr	it's fairly similar to the E7 mechanics	18:00
DocScrutinizer	now if only they had placed the file "schematics" there as well, by acciddent	18:00
DocScrutinizer	N97 as well?	18:00
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DocScrutinizer	I like the fact it has a 42 key kbd	18:01
javispedro	nah, hinge on n97 looks bigger	18:01
DocScrutinizer	wouldn't want that to be 43	18:01
dm8tbr	dunno would need to find an n97 to check :)	18:01
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DocScrutinizer	domesheet, just as somebody asked yesterday "click or soft?"	18:02
DocScrutinizer	is there any way or time when/how you can get those schematics from FCC?	18:03
khertan	ouch even the manual say hello developper	18:03
DocScrutinizer	yep!	18:04
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DocScrutinizer	also watch the number of pages	18:04
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DocScrutinizer	khertan: developer doesn't mean a thing though, just "no consumer helpdesk included"	18:04
Hurrian	lzop.c: undocumented option '--no-header'. just for testing.	18:05
DocScrutinizer	also doesn't have to adhere to mandatory stuff for consumer devices, like 911 et cetera	18:05
javispedro	ah, my carrier is going to love it.	18:06
SpeedEvil	?	18:06
javispedro	being ironic	18:06
javispedro	;P	18:06
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: ?	18:06
SpeedEvil	Oh - you can't easily register arbitrary phones?	18:06
javispedro	I can	18:06
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khertan	DocScrutinizer : This device is not commercially available. is pretty clear :)	18:07
GeneralAntilles	Hrm, so, microsim	18:07
khertan	yep microsim	18:07
GeneralAntilles	What is AT&T gonna say when (if) I take an N9 in there.	18:08
GeneralAntilles	Is the N950 microsim?	18:08
dm8tbr	thought the thing said explicitly NOT microsim	18:08
DocScrutinizer	you can get scary shit commercially, like chainsaws, even 750kV transformers	18:08
ruskie	or guns!!!	18:08
khertan	GeneralAntilles: nope	18:08
DocScrutinizer	developer doesn't mean it's not on sale. Just the shops are different ;-P	18:08
SpeedEvil	The n950 battery is replaceable - and it has a microSD?	18:08
SpeedEvil	Or no microSD	18:08
SpeedEvil	I need to go and look at those phoens	18:08
khertan	GeneralAntilles: Do not use a mini-UICC SIM card, also known as a micro-SIM card	18:08
khertan	it s pretty clear too :)	18:09
dm8tbr	SpeedEvil: if you pop off the back cover you can change the battery yes	18:09
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: miniSIM	18:09
SpeedEvil	SD	18:09
SpeedEvil	not SIM	18:09
khertan	n950 The battery in the device is non-removable,	18:09
dm8tbr	I was told in theory you can replace the N9 battery too, but it's much harder to pry it open	18:09
DocScrutinizer	battery is BL-4D	18:09
DocScrutinizer	khertan: it is	18:10
dm8tbr	khertan: it sure is, saw it wednesday myself :)	18:10
DocScrutinizer	definitely	18:10
khertan	GeneralAntilles: no sd slot	18:10
SpeedEvil	I wondered yesterday if the N9 can have its SIM live-swapped	18:10
khertan	dm8tbr: so manual isn't uptodate :)	18:10
GeneralAntilles	I wonder if AT&T even needs to see tho phone.	18:10
ShadowJK	people cry and want battery hotswap, nokia makes coldswap impossible too. progress right there ;)	18:11
DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles: both N9 ands N950 are microSIM	18:11
dm8tbr	khertan: user replaceable and 'you can still do it if you know how' are two different things...	18:11
khertan	DocScrutinizer it s not what manual say	18:11
khertan	dm8tbr: so it s not removable :)	18:11
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer, N950 manual seems to say not for N950.	18:11
dm8tbr	khertan: if you consider yourself a dumb user, yes	18:12
DocScrutinizer	o.O	18:12
DocScrutinizer	mompls	18:12
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khertan	dm8tbr: yeah but i mean ... use a second battery ... i ll not lost crew changing battery in the metro	18:12
khertan	or tubes	18:12
khertan	:)	18:12
khertan	must go on .... bye everyone	18:12
SpeedEvil	WAve.	18:12
dm8tbr	khertan: it works fine without the screws	18:12
dm8tbr	you still need to pry the plastic back off	18:12
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dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: I may be wrong, but it sure looked like a standard sim what I saw in the N9	18:13
DocScrutinizer	indeed, the holder seems to be 'normal' SIM size	18:13
DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: that's weird as the N9 specs clearly say microSIM iirc	18:14
dm8tbr	also the n950 inside picture looks like 'nowadays' normal sim	18:14
dm8tbr	notice normal SIM is credit card size and a bit out of fashion :D	18:14
DocScrutinizer	0Y161 holder looks like standard SIM anyway	18:14
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: maybe I didn't look close enough. I'll have to check monday.	18:15
DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: not here, just grabbed a phone and "meh, not THIS one, the holder there is sure not right size" ;-P	18:15
* dm8tbr still owns a _working_ Siemens P1 ...		18:16
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DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: internal shots p13 looks like standard sized SIM	18:16
dm8tbr	that takes 'normal' sims! :D	18:16
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DocScrutinizer	supernormal	18:16
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: ack, we'll need to check for the n9 too though	18:16
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DocScrutinizer	neither 0Y161 nor OY161 gives me any hit for hw component :-S	18:18
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GeneralAntilles	OYL61?	18:18
DocScrutinizer	neither	18:19
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dm8tbr	btw: just noticed, on page 12 you can see the keyboard frame and it says N9 on it, lol, old casing	18:20
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dm8tbr	page 5 you can see it better	18:21
ShadowJK	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/23/wireless_disclosure_act/ <- americans call hspa 4g? Is that why every random idiot is asking about 4G support?	18:23
DocScrutinizer	this 0Y161 is definitely standard	18:23
DocScrutinizer	not micro	18:23
DocScrutinizer	I metered the dimensions	18:23
nid0	ShadowJK: it varies from carrier to carrier	18:23
dm8tbr	ShadowJK: carrier marketing departments screwed this one up	18:24
DocScrutinizer	yeah	18:24
nid0	at&t or one of them has a "4g" service thats just non-crippled 3g, afaik	18:24
dm8tbr	ShadowJK: elreg ran a nice article that 4G is NOT what people claim :)	18:24
DocScrutinizer	N9 like there: http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokias-qwerty-slidin-n9-shows-up-in-the-wilds-of-china/#3277333	18:24
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DocScrutinizer	we know this device for quite some time now	18:25
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: basically yes aiui	18:25
nid0	odd that they totally threw the design out and went for a candybar instead, really	18:25
DocScrutinizer	hspa+	18:25
ShadowJK	ah I forget there was hspa+	18:26
dm8tbr	ShadowJK: http://www.reghardware.com/2011/05/24/wtf_is_4g	18:27
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DocScrutinizer	hehe, subtle diffs between http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokias-qwerty-slidin-n9-shows-up-in-the-wilds-of-china/#3277344 and FCC internal shots regarding PCB layout	18:30
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dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: well one says 0724 the other 1122, go figure :)	18:31
DocScrutinizer	NB those engadget shots are 10 months old	18:31
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X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: N950 has regular sim slot btw.	18:31
DocScrutinizer	we gathered as much :-)	18:31
DocScrutinizer	nevertheless thanks	18:32
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: any idea about if that might change for N9?	18:32
DocScrutinizer	not that it really matters, just out of curiosity	18:33
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: No, don't know.	18:33
DocScrutinizer	what's your gut feeling?	18:33
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: micro	18:33
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	18:34
DocScrutinizer	makes sense	18:34
DocScrutinizer	more "hype"	18:34
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: I seem to recall reading or seeing it in one of the videos.	18:34
DocScrutinizer	yeah, me too that'S why I got taken by surprise to find mini on N950	18:35
nid0	it is also clearly listed on nokia's site as using micro :p	18:35
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DocScrutinizer	that's what I meant	18:35
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: what I'm wondering from this picture is. is the OMAP in the POP variety or is that RAM next to it. what's your take?	18:36
DocScrutinizer	nid0: otoh the N950-flasher_release_notes don't list SIM in the list of hw diffs to N9	18:36
DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: mompls	18:36
nid0	ima have to take a knife to my sim	18:37
dm8tbr	how likely is it that the SIM holder size changes between an proto and the release version of the n9?	18:37
dm8tbr	my guess would be unlikely, but that's just a guess	18:37
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DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: I gues that huge critter next to SOC is companion chip. But that's really hard to tell	18:38
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dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: companion chip as in PMIC, TI TWLxxxx?	18:39
DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: needs housing changes. Tooling is expensive. They won't do without massive need to	18:39
DocScrutinizer	dm8tbr: yup	18:40
dm8tbr	k, tx	18:40
DocScrutinizer	just a really uneducated guess	18:40
dm8tbr	yeah	18:40
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DocScrutinizer	I think OMAP always comes POP	18:40
dm8tbr	well I can have a look out. after all the N9 density here in hervanta should be quite high ;)	18:40
DocScrutinizer	TI OMAP	18:40
plautius	why does this channel still have 300 lurkers?	18:40
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nid0	why not?	18:41
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: IIRC you can get OMAP3 also in the non-pop variety, but TI doesn't recommend it	18:41
DocScrutinizer	would be silly anyway for that class of device, that formfactor	18:41
dm8tbr	plautius: nokia just released a new maemo device, why shouldn't it?	18:41
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DocScrutinizer	plautius: plus there's ~1/2 a million happy N900 usres, maybe more	18:42
plautius	dm8tbr: i thought it was a meego device	18:42
dm8tbr	plautius: that's what marketing likes to call it...	18:42
plautius	DocScrutinizer: those numbers are real? that's great!	18:42
DocScrutinizer	so why does this chan ONLY have 365 users?	18:42
plautius	the only normal people i ever saw with n900s were in finland	18:43
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dm8tbr	there are normal people in finland? snicker	18:43
obcecado_	plz define normal people	18:43
plautius	i immediately asked them 'why did you buy that!'	18:43
plautius	he said 'it's the best from nokia'	18:43
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plautius	he had no idea about linux	18:43
Choom	I have an n900 and do not live in finland	18:44
DocScrutinizer	yeah, the curse of maemo	18:44
nid0	I know lots of people who have / have had n900's	18:44
dm8tbr	plautius: congratulations you found out the motivation of 99% of all buyers	18:44
Choom	the coworker sitting right beside me has an n900 and doesn't live in finland	18:44
nid0	though admittedly theyre all ex symbian coders in cambridge	18:44
Choom	and I have another two friends with n900s who don't live in finland	18:44
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DocScrutinizer	I know some that all are (ex-)Freerunner users	18:45
DocScrutinizer	:-D	18:45
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DocScrutinizer	and they all are damn aware about the OS	18:45
Choom	everyone I know bought it because it's a pocket linux bocks that also makes phone calls	18:45
Choom	box*	18:46
Choom	wow	18:46
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Choom	another interesting thing	18:47
Choom	is that I'm seeing quite a lot of people excited about the N9	18:47
Choom	even apple fanboys who haven't bought anything besides iphones for the last 4 years	18:47
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plautius	Choom: i will never understand what motivates the booboisie to buy a phone	18:48
nid0	even my girlfriend likes the idea of a black n9	18:48
plautius	i like them too - they look super	18:48
nid0	she mentioned it to an apple fanboy she works with though, and his reply was "pff, dead platform"	18:48
nid0	sadly, that says it all unless nokia make a definite statement to the contrary before release	18:49
DocScrutinizer	LOL	18:49
DocScrutinizer	too late	18:49
DocScrutinizer	trollop already confirmed THAT statement	18:49
Choom	we don't know about their strategy yet	18:49
Choom	assuming the rumors of an android N9 also making it to the market, they might be targeting different markets with different OSes	18:50
DocScrutinizer	oh really? I have not the slightest doubt about trollops strategy	18:50
Choom	windows for corporate environments, android for the average user, linux for the nerds	18:50
Choom	well	18:50
Choom	android is linux	18:50
Choom	but you get the point :P	18:50
DocScrutinizer	Choom: you're dreaming	18:51
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nid0	DocScrutinizer: im not so sure. the full video of the presentation to staff when he showed em the wp7 device hinted several times that meego dev is continuing with more devices on the way	18:51
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DocScrutinizer	""trolop says >no more linux devices after N9, even when it sells like skunk<"	18:52
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DocScrutinizer	newspaper of yesterday	18:53
nid0	iv seen that quote thrown about, but whats the actual source	18:53
DocScrutinizer	interview with trolop	18:53
nid0	it certainly wasnt said in the 20 min presentation he gave	18:53
Choom	no, he said no more meego devices	18:53
DocScrutinizer	ok	18:53
Choom	and then stated that tne N9 was not meego but a Qt implementation	18:54
DocScrutinizer	idi....	18:54
DocScrutinizer	he's presenting a meego 1.2 harmattan device, and next day says "it's not meego" ???	18:55
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nid0	his video presentation also clearly has him saying that the ui concepts the n9 introduces are going to continue, qt is going to continue into the next billion "and elsewhere", and several references to the meego teams "continuing to do" great work etc etc, all in present tense	18:55
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DocScrutinizer	err, I'd need to actually watch that - alas I got no bucket around	18:56
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Choom	there was also a possible leak yesterday with a phone very similar to the N9 and its windows counterpart running android	18:57
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nid0	even his first sentence of it gives a clue, talking about the meego team and the "quality of work that's being done", not been done	18:57
DocScrutinizer	I bet 98% of interested devels as well as users and other folks are rather convinced of "dead platform"	18:58
jonwil	me, all I care about is making my N900 the best it can possibly be :)	18:58
nid0	if he was in the mindset that "there thats the n9 launched, now meego can fuck off", im sure some past tenses would be slipping out	18:58
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Its alive!	18:58
Choom	which, along with the fact that elob doesn't want to call it a meego phone, leads me to believe that they intend to target different market segments	18:58
Choom	might be wishful thinking from me, but I like to believe it	18:58
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lolcat	What does he want to call it?	18:58
nid0	well, he calls it meego frequently	18:59
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: I'm all with you	18:59
ShadowJK	Choom, like samsung's bada?	19:00
DocScrutinizer	maybe he starts calling it "OUR meego" next week, as opposed to "intel's meego" ;-P	19:01
ShadowJK	did he say "intel's meegp"?	19:01
lolcat	heh	19:01
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DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: I dunno, I really can't watch such shit	19:02
nid0	the first minute and a half of the video is the main bit	19:02
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DocScrutinizer	too long for my stomach	19:03
nid0	the next quarter of an hour is a finglish demonstration about how to view airline flight information on wp7.	19:03
jonwil	I am currently investigating making some improvements to the FindMine game, if I can figure out how to get libillumination0-dev installed into my Scratchbox install	19:03
plautius	come to ##antiwarradio	19:03
plautius	show is on now http://listen.kaosradioaustin.org/kaos-128	19:03
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: for winP7? ;-P	19:03
jonwil	For maemo :P	19:04
DocScrutinizer	plautius: now it's time to earn some bonus points before you got trolling/off-topic next time :-)	19:05
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: He did that in several channels	19:05
plautius	there is no fixing the plautius	19:05
DocScrutinizer	you bet there is	19:06
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jonwil	ok, good, FindMine is GPL	19:06
jonwil	so it should be no problems to make the changes I want to make	19:06
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Lets nuture (fix) plautius	19:06
plautius	hey lolcat	19:06
lolcat	hello	19:06
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plautius	you keep that sphincter sewn shut	19:06
Choom	google translate text: Elopin that N9 is more Qt programming environment than MeeGo operating system utilizing the device. Qt programming environment allows applications to be programmed to operate three of Nokia's operating system, but not a Windows phone.	19:06
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lolcat	Nokia has three oses?	19:07
nid0	well, if that is a true theyre obviously just trying to spin it the other way round to android	19:07
DocScrutinizer	nah, but Qt runs on windows desktop afaik	19:08
nid0	android is "our java overlay is linux really!!" and nokia's "our linux underlying os is a qt experience!"	19:08
Choom	lolcat: yes: symbian, maemo, and harmattan	19:08
lolcat	Meego is intel's	19:08
Choom	those are the current target platforms in the Qt SDK	19:08
lolcat	Also Maemo isn't an os, it is an distro	19:08
Choom	which is an OS	19:09
lolcat	Nokia doesn't own Linux (wich is an OS)	19:09
Choom	no, linux is just a kernel	19:09
lolcat	GNU/linux then	19:09
DocScrutinizer	pleeease gentelmen	19:09
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DocScrutinizer	when trolop says "Qt runs on 3 OS" he probably meant symbian, linux, and windows desktop	19:10
jonwil	ok, even better, the libillumination-dev package I need is in extras which means getting it for Scratchbox should be easy enough :)	19:10
Choom	DocScrutinizer: no, he has claimed that Qt will not be available on wp7	19:11
DocScrutinizer	pff	19:11
Choom	there was an engadget article about it	19:11
DocScrutinizer	wP7	19:11
DocScrutinizer	he said exactly same in same sentence, above	19:12
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lolcat	So we can write a something (app/program/application/whatever floats your boat) in qt and have it multi platform?	19:12
DocScrutinizer	>>but not a Windows phone.<<	19:12
lolcat	Symbian, Maemo, Meego and Android?	19:12
nid0	isnt it more likely by the 3 os's he means s40, symbian, and maego?	19:12
jonwil	If I had a dollar for everything posted on Engadget that later turned out not to be true...	19:13
DocScrutinizer	maemo and meego are the same OS basically	19:13
lolcat	nid0: Maego? A mix of maemo/meego?	19:13
DocScrutinizer	maybe not for trollop	19:13
nid0	lolcat: ie both being counted as one, as essentially they are	19:13
DocScrutinizer	but then he got his count incorrect	19:13
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Maemo has apt-get! I like apt-get	19:13
Choom	DocScrutinizer: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/nokia-notifies-developers-that-qt-is-out-for-windows-phone-devel/	19:13
DocScrutinizer	lolcat: and I like russian vodka	19:13
DocScrutinizer	Choom: SO WHAT?	19:14
DocScrutinizer	even the URL says exactly what trollop said up there ^^^^	19:14
Choom	DocScrutinizer: the UI frameworks are quite different, and they are presented as distinct target systems on Qt Creator	19:14
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Can I get the N9, take its stuff out, stick it into the n900 case, replace the screen with the N9 screen, and then make meego maemo + meego updates?	19:14
DocScrutinizer	yawn	19:15
Choom	so I Would Guess that nokia considers hem different OSes (and so would I, considering that core frameworks change)	19:15
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DocScrutinizer	Choom: you're boring me as you don't listen	19:15
Choom	I'm sleepy	19:15
Choom	sorry	19:15
lolcat	I want N9 hardware into my N900!	19:16
DocScrutinizer	Qt also is available on ubuntu, on debian, on fedorea...	19:16
Choom	reading back :P	19:16
DocScrutinizer	so how would trollop count exactly THREE os?	19:16
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Choom	sure, but none of those are Nokia OSes	19:16
DocScrutinizer	and once again, I said "afaik windows DESKTOP runs Qt"	19:16
nid0	I dont get the problem. s40, symbian, and meego.	19:17
Choom	and I think we're nitpicking here	19:17
Choom	so I won't continue down this road	19:17
nid0	maemo is either not counted or included under the meego count, because they dont develop it any more and havent done for quite a while	19:17
jonwil	hmm, someone suggested earlier that I ask on the osmocombb project channels about cell broadcast stuff but I dont know which channel would be most appropriate	19:17
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DocScrutinizer	honestly, I'm either geting a heart attack, or fall asleep, when we continue discussing trollop shit on that level	19:18
DocScrutinizer	he trolls this chan even though he isn't here at all	19:19
lolcat	nid0: s40 is symbian	19:19
DocScrutinizer	yo	19:19
lolcat	Sure he isn't here?	19:19
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DocScrutinizer	not really	19:20
ShadowJK	s40 is not symbian	19:20
ShadowJK	s60 is symbian	19:20
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lolcat	Elop, you dirty fuck, reveal yourself! You broke my N9! Fuck you!	19:20
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lolcat	Really?	19:21
DocScrutinizer	[Whois] elop ist ~elop@wsru.co.uk (elop)	19:21
ShadowJK	lolcat, really, s40 isn't symbian	19:21
ShadowJK	s30 and s40 are "Nokia OS"	19:22
ShadowJK	j2me devel api for third party apps	19:22
lolcat	hmm	19:23
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lolcat	I'll never have on of those	19:23
lolcat	Maybe a cheap s40 for backup	19:24
ShadowJK	they're what the common man refers to as "dumbphone" and nokia calls featurephone	19:24
Sicelo	s30 doesnt 'exist' anymore, does it?	19:24
ShadowJK	dunno	19:24
DocScrutinizer	don't you think it's way more interesting and exciting to spot references to new unseen devices in meego repository, rather than decrypting trollop's way to count platforms that run Qt?	19:24
Sicelo	iirc it was only on 3510i	19:25
ShadowJK	What does 1100 and 1600 run?	19:25
nid0	you can still get nokia 1100's	19:25
Sicelo	those don't do j2me :/	19:27
Sicelo	maybe i'm OT	19:27
ShadowJK	yeah they dont	19:28
lolcat	Sicelo: Nobody was OT since febuary last year here	19:28
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lardman	re	19:28
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jonwil	I wish I had some more docs on how Cell Broadcast works or better yet some example packets beyond just the one I can get the local tower to send me	19:29
Sicelo	what happened February? :p	19:29
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nid0	meego got announced.	19:29
nid0	and maemo was eol'd	19:29
SpeedEvil	jonwil: drive around a bit?	19:30
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Or publish something that can snarf them if we install it	19:30
jonwil	well I posted on the mailing list with all the notes and stuff I had	19:31
jonwil	have	19:31
jonwil	including the test dumper I am using	19:31
jonwil	and the bytes I had to change in libsms to get things to work	19:31
SpeedEvil	I mwan in extras-devel or something	19:31
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: \o/	19:32
jonwil	\o/ what?	19:32
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: I suggested that one byte, some time ago. You recall that? :-)	19:33
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jonwil	This is a change of 3 bytes	19:33
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: nice you succeeded to receive a smscb	19:33
jonwil	based on what I see in the new Harmattan x86 libsms package	19:33
DocScrutinizer	ok, one opcode	19:33
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: that is clearly a patch tha needs to go to cssu	19:34
jonwil	nope, its 2 opcodes actually	19:34
jonwil	:)	19:35
jonwil	2 instructions :)	19:35
DocScrutinizer	:-)	19:35
jonwil	is there an IRC channel or discussion forum/list for CSSU where the dev guys hang out?	19:35
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jonwil	I just thought of another option, perhaps it would be possible to completly duplicate sms_gsm_cb_routing_ntf and then use LD_PRELOAD to make the dynamic linker use my new copy instead of the original. Although I have no idea how that works on ARM	19:37
lardman	jonwil: yep, #maemo-ssu	19:37
jonwil	or with ARM position-independent-code though	19:37
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jonwil	the advantage of LD_PRELOAD is that it doesn't require redistributing a nokia binary file	19:39
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lardman	jonwil: just read your post to the list, nice bit of binary patching work there :)	19:40
jonwil	believe it or not, I find reverse engineering fun :)	19:41
nicofs	Is there a way to create one's own easy debian image?	19:41
jonwil	and have been doing it for years	19:41
plautius_	wow! very insteresting documents released from the arizona police department by lulzsec!	19:41
jonwil	mostly on PC games of all sorts	19:41
plautius_	DocScrutinizer: have you seen them yet?	19:42
lardman	jonwil: same here :)	19:42
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* lardman heads for home, catch you guys over the weekend hopefully		19:45
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jonwil	ok, a look at sms_gsm_cb_routing_ntf suggests that cloning it shouldn't be hard	19:46
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: ld_preload would work for sure, but on cssu I guess we could even patch the original file	19:48
jonwil	LD_PRELOAD is cleaner though and wont require people to install CSSU just for CBSMS	19:48
DocScrutinizer	still needs cssu, as you need to patch the location where you have to insert LD_PRELOAD	19:49
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DocScrutinizer	but I agree a clone is for sure the nicer method	19:49
DocScrutinizer	well, if we create a package that brute-force patches existing files, the we could get away with a package in extras repo ;-)	19:51
jonwil	a simple binary patch does seem the easiest, will discuss it in #maemo-ssu then	19:53
jonwil	who are the people that do the decision making regarding the CSSU? (if there are such people)	19:53
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nicofs	Is there a way to create one's own easy debian image? Or some sort of how-to for creating a similar chroot environment? Any help is appreciated...	19:54
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jonwil	the other problem I just realized with a clone of that function is that it calls msgbuf_get_ptr, sb_length_get and sb_id_get from libisi.so (functions I dont really know how to properly use)	19:55
scoobertron	is anyone using mediabox? am I right in thinking it should work as a dlna control point?	19:56
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dragly	Anyone where who's got their hands on a N950?	21:09
dragly	I'm already having trouble flashing mine :(	21:10
pronto	if i ever own a bunch of land(like massive mounts of acres) im so going to put shit like this on it in random places, hopefully some of it is wooded area http://i.imgur.com/3Dhzj.jpg	21:10
pronto	wait	21:10
pronto	the n950 is out?	21:10
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dragly	kinda. It's not for sale, but Nokia has started shipping it to developers.	21:11
ShadowJK	dragly, where do you live?	21:11
dragly	Worked very fine until I decided to "Clear device". Now it won't even boot.	21:12
dragly	Norway	21:12
ShadowJK	Ah ok	21:12
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* ShadowJK calls his SWAT team: "The device is in Norway, I repeat, the device is in Norway."		21:12
dragly	Hehe.	21:13
dragly	Have you got any experience with the N900 flasher. Seems they are similar, so maybe I can issue some command line options that would help?	21:14
ShadowJK	Well with N900 the main challenge is getting the N900 into a state where it will accept flashing	21:14
Corsac	dragly: and you can't reflash it again?	21:14
Corsac	I mean, what does it say when you try?	21:14
ShadowJK	The easiest way is to remove the battery, connect the USB cable, start flasher, insert battery	21:14
dragly	I'm doing a reflash now. It's "erasing" as we speak.	21:15
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dragly	Hm... Guess I'll have to dig out some special screw drivers to lift the battery out in that case.	21:15
dragly	The flash log is here, if it is of any help: http://pastebin.com/Qa13VdbK	21:16
dragly	Seems to be some kind of strange security error. (Pentagon device?)	21:16
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ShadowJK	Looks like it found the device ok	21:17
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dragly	Yes. And it erases everything with success too apparently.	21:18
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dragly	But as soon as it's supposed to load the images, it just fails with the errors you see in the log.	21:18
dragly	The erase takes about 15 minutes, so it's an awful lot of time to wait just to see it fail every time :(	21:18
ShadowJK	hm	21:19
Corsac	hmhm, thanks, ape-algo is indeed a tiny flashing environment then	21:19
dragly	seems so. The transfer before the erase is extremely quick.	21:20
Corsac	bb5_rdc_cert_read() are the function calls to the TEE which checks if you have a r&d cert on the device (which you have not, but I think it's normal)	21:20
Corsac	but the real problem seems to be that your apparently try to “downgrade” the firmware	21:21
dragly	ah, so that shouldn't be the problem?	21:21
Corsac	which is not allowed	21:21
dragly	I see. Why would they publish an older firmware version than they ship?	21:21
Corsac	no idea :/	21:21
FIQ\|n900	quick question: has anyone got J2ME to run on N900? a friend ask	21:21
ruskie	there is some emulator	21:22
wmarone	heh	21:22
Corsac	Version of 'sw-release': DFL61_HARMATTAN_10.2011.24-7_PR_RM680	21:22
Corsac	Image SW version DFL61_HARMATTAN_1.2011.22-6_PR_RM680	21:22
wmarone	four twitter clients, none work	21:22
FIQ\|n900	i know J2SE works with iced tea	21:22
* wmarone casts voodoo upon them		21:22
FIQ\|n900	but J2ME?	21:22
dragly	Ah, thanks for pointing that out Corsac.	21:23
ruskie	FIQ\|n900, as said there is something about j2me in the repos	21:23
ruskie	emolator iirc or something	21:23
ruskie	erm emulator	21:23
FIQ\|n900	let's check it out	21:23
dragly	I guess they might have done a mistake by uploading an old version or something then.	21:23
dragly	Why would it be risky to downgrade by the way? Isn't that quite normal?	21:23
Corsac	depends	21:24
Corsac	on a developer device it might be ok	21:24
Corsac	but downgrading on a production phone can be problematic	21:24
* dragly hoping for a command line option that says "--force-downgrade"		21:24
Corsac	if you find a flaw in a firmware version, then you hope people upgrade and you try to prevent reverting to the bad version	21:24
Corsac	so noone can exploit you by reverting to the vulnerable version	21:25
dragly	That makes sense.	21:25
dragly	Hmm... How can I obtain the new version then. Better go for a Google-hunt. I guess there are noone at work at Nokia until monday again.	21:25
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Oppo\|n900	hi	21:26
dragly	Except it the U.S. maybe? But would anyone there have the newest firmware laying around on their desk?	21:26
Oppo\|n900	is there a java SE in the repositories for maemo?	21:27
dragly	Damn... I was so happy that the device came today. Guess I'll have to be patient for a couple more days.	21:27
Oppo\|n900	if so, what is it called?	21:28
Oppo\|n900	ME*	21:28
dragly	Where should I file a bug for this? I guess bugs.maemo.org isn't the right place anymore?	21:28
Sicelo	0_0.. coincidence? ;/	21:28
dragly	I'll try http://developer.nokia.com/bugs	21:29
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Corsac	dragly: when you got your n950 didn't you get an url or something to report issue?	21:30
Corsac	in the package itself or in the mail you might have received	21:31
FIQ\|n900	wat	21:31
FIQ\|n900	N950 already being produced?	21:31
dragly	Nope. Just the developer.nokia.com/Devices/MeeGo page	21:31
dragly	FIQ\|n900: It's already being shipped :)	21:31
dragly	But only to developers	21:31
Corsac	reporting on meego.com might not really be a good idea either	21:31
FIQ\|n900	yeah, i know	21:31
dragly	Seems http://developer.nokia.com/bugs has a Harmattan category. I'll try my luck there.	21:32
dragly	After all, I downloaded the flasher from developer.nokia.com as well.	21:32
FIQ\|n900	too bad there's only one device for us non-devs on meego in sight, and that one doesn't have a keyboard...	21:32
FIQ\|n900	I guess I'll stick to N900 a bit more	21:32
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FIQ\|n900	as it still works fine	21:32
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FIQ\|n900	keyboard as in, a hardware one	21:33
dragly	Strange thing that the date for the firmware version on my device is 24th of July by the way... :s	21:33
Sicelo	Oppo\|n900: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=37799 and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=52898	21:33
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* FIQ\|n900 wants a phone that works the way his computer do, more or less, i.e. real linux experience. N900 is the only options on the market currently with that		21:35
FIQ\|n900	option*	21:35
Corsac	dragly: it's not july 24th	21:36
Corsac	dragly: if the versionning scheme didn't change it's more like the 7th revision on week 24	21:36
Corsac	so last week	21:36
dragly	oh, I see that it would make no sense now :-p	21:37
dragly	that would make the day a major version and the month a minor	21:37
Corsac	(well, week number is not really a good idea since not everyone has the same definition but eh :)	21:37
Corsac	I don't think there's day/month	21:37
dragly	hehe. Okay, but then I'm not so scared. I guess they have a newer version internally.	21:37
Corsac	yeah but not providing the installed version is a bad idea	21:38
Corsac	as you already found out :)	21:38
dragly	Yep. Which leaves me with a "bricked" device over the weekend.	21:38
Corsac	but at least you have a device	21:38
Corsac	;p	21:38
Corsac	it'd be worth trying to fool the flasher though	21:39
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dragly	Yeah, but how.	21:39
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gri_	dragly: Could you take a photo with the n950 and n900 side by side (even though it does not work)? :) I'm interested in the thickness-factor	21:39
dragly	Maybe I could open the bin in some Hex editing program and change the version number? :p	21:40
dragly	gri_: Of course. Hang on a minute ;)	21:40
Corsac	dragly: nah you don't need that	21:40
Corsac	well, I don't think so	21:40
Corsac	wait a sec	21:40
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dragly	Corsac: Okay :) Thanks	21:42
Corsac	hmhm, well, yeah, maybe you have to	21:42
Corsac	:)	21:42
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dragly	Would that be dangerous in any way?	21:43
dragly	Could it get any worse? :p	21:43
Corsac	no idea :)	21:43
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dragly	Don't know if I dare trying. But I'll try to open the bin file at least :p	21:44
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Corsac	no exactly sure how they are packed, you can extract them but I don't from where exactly the version number is checked	21:45
Corsac	and if there's a signature somewhere	21:45
Corsac	(I'd assume so)	21:45
FIQ\|n900	"ups, i bricked the developer phone a few hours after getting it"	21:45
dragly	FIQ\|n900: That's me! :p	21:45
* FIQ\|n900 wants a N950 too		21:46
Corsac	fun, the flasher.save doesn't have the --moslo arg	21:46
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dragly	Corsac: What is the --moslo arg?	21:46
Corsac	no idea	21:46
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piggz	the problem with tmo is that it stops be getting any work done!	21:48
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ShadowJK	fennec on N900/MeegoCE seems much faster than on N900/Maemo5...	21:49
piggz	ShadowJK: yes, i got that impression too	21:50
Corsac	hmhm, iirc fiasco-gen has a way to sign images so you can unpack images but I'm not sure you could repack it correctly	21:50
Corsac	but it might be possible to extract the various images and flash them one by one, but as we don't really know how flasher works, it might be a bad idea	21:51
dragly	Corsac: I guess you're right. I really miss the --force option in the flasher :(	21:52
dragly	Can't seem to find anything similar yet.	21:52
FIQ\|n900	Hm, would it be possible to get uboot running w/o running stock kernel but powerkernel?	21:52
Corsac	not sure it's in the flasher	21:52
Corsac	it's more in the n950 itself	21:53
Corsac	well, in the ape-algo image	21:53
FIQ\|n900	as uboot in the repositories seems to conflict with powerkernel	21:53
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dragly	FIQ\|n900: I think I read about something like a uboot-power, but I won't say that for sure.	21:55
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FIQ\|n900	du kunde ha valt en bättre font ;)	21:55
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FIQ\|n900	er, wrong channel..	21:55
FIQ\|n900	dragly, i'll look	21:55
dragly	Corsac: So no renaming would do then :(	21:55
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dragly	FIQ\|n900: Jeg synes fonten er fin jeg :)	21:55
FIQ\|n900	indeed uboot-power seems to be there	21:56
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dragly	gri_: Transfering image to PC now ;)	21:59
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dragly	gri_: Here is the N900 and the N950 lined up next to eachother: http://dragly.org/?attachment_id=494	22:03
gri_	dragly: Thank you! Looks as thick as an Iphone but with keyboard :)	22:05
SpeedEvil	dragly: Ok to use that in wiki?	22:05
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Corsac	hmmh yeah, ape-algo is a linux kernel + a tiny script to run softupd	22:06
dragly	SpeedEvil: To use the web browser in wiki?	22:06
SpeedEvil	dragly: pic	22:06
dragly	Oh, of course. CC-BY-SA ;)	22:07
SpeedEvil	Trying to fix up the wiki a bit.	22:07
dragly	SpeedEvil: Cool :)	22:08
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dragly	Uhm... Was it stupid of me to post the full log online? I just saw that there is a Device Identifier in there :o	22:11
Corsac	yeah, might not have been the wisest thing	22:11
dragly	Doh...	22:12
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dragly	But how can that possibly be misused?	22:12
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Corsac	no idea but I usually prefer to be safe than sorry :)	22:13
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Shapeshifter	dragly: is it good?	22:15
dragly	I agree :)	22:15
dragly	Shapeshifter: Is what good? The N950?	22:16
Shapeshifter	yeah	22:16
dragly	I managed to temporarily brick it now, but until I did that it was a pleasure to use :)	22:16
Shapeshifter	dragly: how linuxy is it? I mean, does it feel like a proper linux or is it slightly out of shape like on the n900?	22:17
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dragly	I'm not really sure what you mean by that. It has a terminal like the N900, but the interface is of course like a smartphone.	22:18
dragly	It is pretty far from any desktop distro.	22:18
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gri_	dragly: Did they send you one with norwegian keyboard layout? :D	22:20
Shapeshifter	dragly: does it ship with busybox? does it have man pages?	22:20
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dragly	gri_: Nope. It's the english keyboard version. Didn't notice that before just now :p	22:22
dragly	Shapeshifter: That I haven't had the chance to check. It's said that the N9 will have BusyBox, so I guess the N950 does too, but man pages I don't know if are installed.	22:22
Shapeshifter	dragly: mh, I'd also like to know about the partitioning, being one of the utterly broken things on the n900.	22:23
Shapeshifter	but oh well. we'll never see it in the stores anyway, so	22:23
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gri_	RX71-47-2_QEMU_MR0:~# man	22:25
gri_	-sh: man: not found	22:25
Shapeshifter	well I admit it makes sense to not include man pages on a device with limited space. a premade package would be nice though	22:26
Sicelo	Shapeshifter: iirc somewhere nokia mentioned that partitioning follows the FHS	22:26
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GAN900	http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/06/nokias-new-meego-based-n9-is-set-up-for-failure.ars	22:54
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, up for fixing the accelerometer driver? :)	23:13
DocScrutinizer	lol, ask me next week, I feel pissed by the N950 fighting and bitching	23:14
merlin1991	MohammadAG: is the lockscreen still an overlay?	23:14
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dragly	DocScrutinizer: Do you have an N950?	23:14
DocScrutinizer	nope, and I'll not get any	23:15
dragly	heh, ok :)	23:15
DocScrutinizer	not really sad about it, I'm happy with my N900. But I regret the hours invested for applying	23:16
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dragly	Oh, so that's what you meant about fighting. I was thinking you was fighting with the device or something.	23:17
DocScrutinizer	almost a whole day, counting in the the really unpleasant experience at developers.nokia.com	23:17
MohammadAG	merlin1991, you shouldn't know that	23:17
merlin1991	:D	23:17
merlin1991	But is it?	23:18
dragly	You ended up not applying? Or you didn't have your application approved?	23:18
DocScrutinizer	I ended up getting advised to apply better	23:18
dragly	Ah, I see :(	23:19
MohammadAG	I applied, but for some reason I doubt I'm getting a device	23:20
gri_	DocScrutinizer: You could also apply again at meego.com?	23:20
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DocScrutinizer	I did, after wasting a day with dev.nokia.com	23:20
DocScrutinizer	and now learnt that's a beauty competition of project pages	23:21
DocScrutinizer	meh, nevermind. Konttori asked me to apply, it's up to him if I receive a device or not. I don't really care	23:22
DocScrutinizer	it's not like my daily presence here could get any increase, I'm for sure not designing a project page to make my later wasting time with helping out happen	23:24
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DocScrutinizer	that'S why I suggested MohammadAG to ask next week	23:24
MohammadAG	I see	23:25
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MohammadAG	does anyone know how to read notifications?	23:33
lcuk	with your eyes.	23:33
lcuk	when they popup, look in their direction :P	23:33
hiemanshu	or record the screen at all times with another camera, so it can pause and read it if you are really slow	23:35
lcuk	hiemanshu, would you need to track the notifications on the second cameras' screen also?	23:36
wmarone	buncha comedians in here ;)	23:36
hiemanshu	lcuk: right so setup a circular recursive recording which ends up at the N900s camera	23:37
lcuk	with magnets?	23:38
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hiemanshu	nope, tripods	23:39
hiemanshu	they are cheap	23:39
lcuk	MohammadAG, I hear you can use dbus	23:40
lcuk	is the other option	23:40
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MohammadAG	hmm	23:41
lcuk	wmarone, I was being technically correct	23:43
GeneralAntilles	The best kind of correct.	23:45
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