IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-06-24

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ric31rm_work> thanks there is only one video on/home/user/MyDocs/.video00:01
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ric31and not my all video i take00:02
rm_workric31: do you have a microSD card?00:02
rm_workric31: it will often default to the microSD card00:02
rm_workin which case, I am not 100% sure where it goes on there, but a quick browse (and make sure to check for hidden folders) should help00:03
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ric31i see there is a lot file bebin by dot00:04
ric31i am looking in00:04
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piggzafter all the fuss about the n9 score on, i just realised my n900 beats it anyway :)00:05
rm_worklol what piggz?00:05
piggzrm_work: 262 + 9 bonus (meego 1.2 ce with firefox ;)00:06
rm_workpiggz: but what fuss about n9 score?00:06
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Seabladewazd: Funny side topic... I just came from here....
Seabladewazd: Specifically went straight from that job to my full time work00:07
piggzppl saying it is a good score i think00:07
rm_workpiggz: ah i see it, 257 + 14?00:08
rm_workyeah that is pretty good for mobile browsers :P but yeah. n900 was just fine there too00:08
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rm_workjacekowski: wow this seems slick. man, i always loved opera :P00:09
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mer_gemaemo scores 271+9 on nice :)00:11
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mer_gefirefox on maemo00:11
mer_gedoes anyone use wifi-switcher?00:11
Seabladehmm 10 minutes in a toaster, and the n900 still turns on amazingly, but sadly no improvement in cell problems, so I now have an internet tablet it seems.  I don't think I should try longer than 10 minutes though as I am already beginning to smell things I shouldn't be I don't think00:12
VenemoSeablade, wut?00:13
SeabladeVenemo: Ongoing report from earlier, short version I am having communications error, reboot device, etc. that means I can't talk to cellular networks with my n900 anymore00:13
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SeabladeVenemo: Been trying to reflow the solder with a toaster, but if it has happened there hasn't been any difference00:14
VenemoSeablade, why don't you just take it to warranty repair?00:14
ric31how do you do to backup video from n900 to pc linux00:14
nox-then he'll get an n8 back...00:14
SeabladeVenemo: Because I am in the US, bought one of the first batches, and due to a 1 year warranty over here it is well out of warranty00:14
VenemoSeablade, ah. unlucky :(00:15
nox-Venemo, someone said they're out of spare parts and now send ppl other phones back like n8.s00:15
Venemowhat the heck should I do with an N8?00:16
nox-right :)00:16
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VenemoN8 is not a mobile computer00:16
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lcukVenemo, it is a mobile Qt platform though00:16
lcukruns your app well?00:17
lcukthere is something wrong with your qt if it does not want to work there?00:17
lcukoh Venemo, it is also multitouch00:17
Venemoyes, my app runs on the N8 in a not-so-bad manner00:17
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Venemohowever, the philosophy of the N900 feels closer to my heart than the philosophy of the N800:18
lcukgood stuff00:18
mer_geis maemo6 on the N9 also such a nice integrated SIP/jabber phone btw?00:19
Venemomer_ge, yes as far as I saw it00:20
mer_geis there _any_ other phone out there except of maemos that do that? me doubting00:21
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MohammadAGyes it integrates shit00:25
mer_genice! that's SO underrated imo00:25
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SeabladeWould be nice if it integrated into Google's services a bit better IMO, but that isn't to say I dislike the integration that is in the n90000:26
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jacekowskiwhat about fmtx on n9?00:26
jacekowskiany info on that00:26
jacekowskiis it there or not?00:26
flailingmonkeypretty likely not00:26
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JaffaNokians have said h/w is on the wifi/BT chip as on N90000:27
SeabladeI thought I saw the hardware is there, but like Maemo5 the software is not, but I could easily be passing along false information00:27
VenemoI think there is one, but I'm not sure00:27
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JaffaBut whether or not you can make it work is up to external softwar00:27
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jacekowskiJaffa: that's not a problem00:27
jacekowskiJaffa: is it same chip?00:28
jacekowskiJaffa: or something else?00:28
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jacekowskiand NDAs will be a problem?00:28
Jaffajacekowski: I *think* I read same chip; but ICBW00:28
jacekowskiand when is it going to be released?00:28
SpeedEvilSeablade: It's not only the chip00:28
SpeedEvilSeablade: It will also depend on if the antenna matching components are there. If it's not - there is no hope.00:29
SpeedEviloh - for tx - the antenna ratehr00:29
jacekowskiwell, if you only need 10cm or so you only need piece of copper connected to chip00:29
SeabladeSpeedEvil: Define antenna matching components for me...?00:29
jacekowskiSeablade: few inductors and few capacitors00:30
jacekowskito make transmission happen00:30
Seabladejacekowski: Oh ok, so the RF transmission front end that connects to the antenna itself, yes I would consider that to be a necessary part of the hardware00:31
jacekowskibut 1G of ram is amazing00:32
jacekowskiand 64G of flash00:32
SeabladeOf course I consider the FMTX nice and use it often in my car, I am not personally on the line of it needs to be there, I owuld be happy using A2DP as well00:32
jacekowskiSeablade: my radio can't do a2dp00:32
Seabladejacekowski: Neither can mine00:32
Seabladejacekowski: Thus why I use FMTX already on my n900, but worst case scneario I owuld hook a bluetooth receiver up to it00:33
jacekowskibt uses more power00:33
Seabladejacekowski: Then again playing with sound is my passion and my life.  I make my living from it.  I can understand that not everyone wants to do the same00:33
JaffaOooh, I want my next car radio to have Bluetooth & NFC :)00:33
JaffaThere's that Bluetooth standard which is better audio quality than A2DP; which it seems the N9 supports00:34
cehtehanyone ever tried to transfer data with FMTX? AX.25 or so? :)00:34
Seabladejacekowski: Possibly yes, not something I Know off hand, but I am not to worried about the power differential myself, worst case just get a USB car charger00:34
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SeabladeJaffa: I would be curious on both standards, got links to info on them?00:35
jacekowskiand palm pre style charging00:35
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SeabladeJaffa: I have often wondered what A2DP actually supported, obviously not something I use a whole lot, even given my profession as it isn't reliable enough for me to use professionally00:35
cehtehand for fast charge put it on our induction stove :P00:35
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jacekowskicompatibility with that wouldn't be bad feature00:36
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JaffaSeablade: - scroll down to see the MD-31000:37
JaffaSeablade: APT-X is the alternative00:37
mer_ge[offtopic] I think soon there'd be no need to integrate Gtalk anymore at all as it becomes standard jabber-jingle
cehtehjacekowski: the induction stove?00:37
cehtehi wont try it :)00:37
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SeabladeJaffa: Yea, I couldn't care less about their hardware, it is almost a guarantee it won't be what I want, looking up the protocol now00:38
cehtehi mean pumping 3.5KW into the tiny device .. what can possibly go wrong? :)00:38
petterimer_ge: n9(00) might not be happy about that:
barisionepetteri, mer_ge: the N9 is fine00:40
Seablademer_ge: I still want for a google voice call to ring my n900, which I believe is outside of the standard Jingle specs from my experience, but haven't looked into it to much yet.  All I Know is it doesn't work on the n900 currently:)00:40
petteribarisione: nice to hear00:40
Seablademer_ge: That should be, Google Voice Call forwarded to Google Talk, should ring my cell phone, it currently doesn't00:40
barisionepetteri: we already released and integrate the fix for Harmattan00:41
barisioneSeablade: how does google voice calls work exactly?00:41
mer_gebarisione it's sip I think00:41
Seablademer_ge: No00:41
SeabladeGoogle Voice itself does not make calls.  It only forwards calls00:42
SeabladeBut it can forward calls to Google Talk, which can make and receive calls via Jabber/Jingle.  Yet for some reason on the n900 when doing this it won't ring the n90000:42
flailingmonkeyjabber != sip00:42
rm_workJaffa: my car has A2DP built in, it is awesome00:43
barisioneI work on gabble (so XMPP for both GTalk and Facebook), but others maintains the call bits00:43
barisioneso I don't know much about it :)00:43
SeabladeGoogle Voice can also forward calls to any landline which is how I am currently using it, forwarding to a skype number which I get on my n900 since it's cell phone doesn't work00:43
rm_workJaffa: when I turn on my car it auto-pairs to n900 and does calls over the radio / builtin mic, and plays music otherwise :P00:43
rm_worknever take my phone out of my pocket00:43
lcukrm_work, we don't have a problem with bluetooth cars00:44
rm_worklol yeah00:44
lcukits the fact you wear stocking and suspenders to "turn your car on"00:44
SeabladeJaffa: Based off what I am seeing on APT-X it is still unsuitable for professional uses, despite what Wikipedia may say:)  But that being said I would still want to see side by side between it and A2DP to see the difference, if they are even comparable00:45
mer_geI don't really get it. Google changed the jingle standard now? Will this affect any non-google calls in any way?00:45
flailingmonkeymer_ge: i'm pretty sure that google did something non-standard before, and are now moving to using jingle. is that right?00:46
Seablademer_ge: Google didn't change the Jingle standard, what Google is doing with Voice integration is either outside of the Jingle protocol extension, or is something not yet implemented by the n90000:46
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SeabladeIIRC Google was involved in the development of Jingle but again this is something that I may be wrong on00:47
mer_geyes, google develped jingle but used their own dialekt of it00:47
mer_genow they seem to merge00:48
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mer_geand I thought that'd resolve any remaining little issue there might be anywhere :)00:49
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mer_gebut I get confused by this issue. and I don't use google, but you can log in to your google account using a non-gtalk client as well. and make calls over jingle right?00:51
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mer_gethe client decided (I thought)00:51
Seablademer_ge: Yes you can, thus why the n900 can make calls over google talk00:52
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mer_gethanks all! of what I read, everything seem to evolve nicely :)00:54
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Hurrianugh, rootfs.lzo file structure is ODD.01:26
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Hurrianthere's no ext4 header, it starts off immediately with the FS label01:27
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nox-ext4?  are you sure n900 even knows that?01:28
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SpeedEvilCan anyone point me at n950 source? Secifically kernel - but any is handy01:29
andre__SpeedEvil, I guess01:32
Hurriannox- i'm working with the rootfs.lzo image from the N950 system01:32
SpeedEvilAnd Human wins!01:32
Hurriannokia has it on download ;)01:32
nox-oh ok :)01:33
Hurrianalso, i've found the EXT4 header at 18E, tried to mount it at offset 398, no dice01:33
Hurrian"53 EF"01:33
jacekowskiHurrian: it may be ubifs01:33
jacekowskiHurrian: i wouldn't expect them to change it01:33
Hurriani will shoot somebody if they actually strapped an ext4 fs on top of ubi01:34
Hurrianthen again, you may be right01:35
jacekowskiare you sure it's ext4 header01:35
jacekowskinot something looking like ext4?01:35
Hurrianthe "ext4" header comes after FS label01:35
Hurriani'm comparing an ext4 sparse file to the rootfs.lzo image01:35
jacekowskii would shoot them just for using ext4 on mobile device01:35
SpeedEvilHurrian: Sorry - not awake - how do I go from deb to source?01:36
Hurrianuhh, wait01:36
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: apt-get source packagename01:36
andre__I expect ext4 for /home (but vfat for the user documents section)01:36
kerioandre__: that's another whole load of bullshit01:38
keriovfat is not fit for *anything* nowadays01:39
SpeedEvilIs there a onenand, or is it one big eMMC?01:39
SpeedEvils/onenand/POP nand/01:39
infobotSpeedEvil meant: Is there a POP nand, or is it one big eMMC?01:39
andre__kerio, sure, let's just ignore the 96% Windows users out there that want to copy Music onto the device01:40
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kerioyou mean let's ignore the 4 windows users who will buy the n9 by mistake?01:40
jacekowskiandre__: you can always do it in MTP mode01:41
* kerio ponders about vfat emulation01:41
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jacekowskikerio: i thought about that01:42
andre__jacekowski: also for non-media files? always thought that it was a windows media player thingy, but haven't used windows for years so no idea01:42
keriowould that work?01:42
jacekowskikerio: yes01:42
jacekowskikerio: complicated though01:43
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jacekowskiandre__: no01:43
jacekowskiandre__: you can use MTP to transfer any kind of files01:43
kerioyou'd still need to umount the fs from meego though01:43
jacekowskithat's the thing with mtp01:44
jacekowskiit's more like scp sort of thing01:44
jacekowskijust over usb and called differently01:44
jacekowskiand implementd slightly differently01:44
kerioso, not like scp01:45
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Hurrianuuuugh, i wish we can port MTP to maemo 501:50
Hurrianthis is the way nokia should've done it a LONG time ago01:50
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angelox|laptopHi all03:46
angelox|laptoponly flashing rootfs and kernel i'll be at PR 1.3 ?03:46
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c2pLaYdepends on what you are flashing it? with03:48
angelox|laptopif i only flashed they,and i flash everything now again,i'll brick it?03:50
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c2pLaYnot sure if that made sense03:51
c2pLaYis english your first language?03:52
angelox|laptopno,sorry :(03:52
c2pLaYmaybe ask if someone here speaks your language03:53
c2pLaY341 people03:53
c2pLaYgood chances man03:53
angelox|laptopI'm Brazillian..some one speaking Portuguese??03:54
angelox|laptopc2pLaY: btw,sorry my bad english :(03:54
c2pLaYits ok03:54
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Sc0rpiusit's ok03:54
Sc0rpiusthough I couldn't understand either03:54
c2pLaYhope someone would take pitty on me if i was in brazil03:54
c2pLaYumm yeah03:54
c2pLaYwhat do you know03:55
c2pLaYi rarely use that word03:55
Sc0rpiusangelox|laptop why would you want to flash your phone?03:55
Sc0rpiusvc explícalo in portugués03:56
Sc0rpiusand I'd understand03:56
angelox|laptopsome days ago my phone wasn't booting because i flashed a wrong kernel,i needed to flash only kernel and rootfs(was from pr 1.3) and it worked,and now i'd like to know if my phone is in pr 1.3 was pr 1.203:57
angelox|laptopplease check if you can understand03:57
Sc0rpiuswell go to Settings -> About product and what version does it say?03:57
c2pLaYi think he's saying it won't post03:57
c2pLaYso he can't check03:58
angelox|laptoplet me check03:58
Sc0rpiusyou thought his phone didn't boot? :)03:58
c2pLaYwell that's what he said...03:58
Sc0rpiushe confused "only" with "just"03:58
Sc0rpiusthat's all03:58
Sc0rpius"I needed to flash just the kernel and rootfs..."03:58
Sc0rpiusbecause in portuguese, only and just is the same word03:59
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angelox|laptopsorry,i forgot only word :\ but i know what that means03:59
Sc0rpiuswell my phone says 20.2010.36-2 but I have CSSU installed so I'm not sure what was PR1.3 version number but it's something very similar04:00
angelox|laptopouch... Version: unknown04:00
angelox|laptopyes! (LOL) let me reboot04:00
MohammadAGSc0rpius, PR1.3 is exactly that04:00
MohammadAGthe CSSU doesn't change that cause the ovi store is epic and doesn't handle other versions04:01
Sc0rpiusdidn't know that04:01
Sc0rpiusI never heard of a case where the version is unknown04:02
MohammadAGsometimes it gets unset04:02
FIQ|n900<MohammadAG> the CSSU doesn't change that cause the ovi store is epic and doesn't handle other versions04:02
angelox|laptoposso-product-info says unknown too04:02
MohammadAGif we change the version number the ovi store would break04:02
MohammadAGangelox|laptop, dpkg -l mp-fremantle-*04:03
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MohammadAGcause the store's retarded04:03
FIQ|n900indeed, if that is true...04:03
Sc0rpiusif he's not in PR1.2 and the version is unset  the upgrade popup will never appear, right?04:03
angelox|laptopMohammadAG: 20.2010.36-204:04
MohammadAGif the package isn't present yes04:04
MohammadAGangelox|laptop, latest version04:04
MohammadAGfeel free to run /var/lib/dpkg/info/mp-fremantle-generic-pr.postinst04:04
Sc0rpiusthat will fix his problems?04:04
MohammadAGosso-product-info -s OSSO_VERSION="RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_MR0" 2> /dev/null || exit 004:05
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Sc0rpiuswhat's that || exit 0 for04:05
angelox|laptopMohammadAG: should i flash whole my firmware image to don't get any problem?04:05
MohammadAGidk, it's the postinst not me :P04:05
Sc0rpiusangelox|laptop, no04:05
Sc0rpiusjust run the post install script like MohammadAG said04:05
angelox|laptopOh three "no"..ok i'll do it04:06
angelox|laptop:)  *04:06
angelox|laptopMohammadAG: i have only:/var/lib/dpkg/info/mp-fremantle-generic-pr.list04:07
MohammadAGosso-product-info -s OSSO_VERSION="RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_MR0" 2> /dev/null04:08
Sc0rpiusthat's weird04:09
Sc0rpiusyeah just do that and your phone will be 100% ok04:09
Sc0rpiusand type it EXACTLY like that!04:10
FIQ|n900sure about that?04:10
Sc0rpiusabout what exactly?04:10
FIQ|n900about it being OK04:10
angelox|laptopi joint to irc to copy and paste on my n90004:10
Sc0rpiusno, but that's what all support IT guys say all the time04:10
FIQ|n900as it for some reason didn't do it right from the beginning04:10
Sc0rpiusyou don't need to do that angelox|laptop04:10
Sc0rpiusit's better to SSH from your PC to your phone04:10
Sc0rpiusand then copy paste it there04:10
angelox|laptopah yes...i forgot that :)04:11
angelox|laptopthank you04:11
angelox|laptopFIQ|n900: ?04:11
angelox|laptopi didn't know the ctcp version,only ctcp time...04:12
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angelox|laptopthank you,worked04:17
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* angelox|laptop liked the N900,but it didn't like me :(04:23
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infobotDocScrutinizer: infobot joined!05:33
infobot:), DocScrutinizer05:33
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cliftonIs it possible to send text messages to a cell phone using my Nokia N900 if I don't have a SIM card?05:36
SpeedEvil No.05:36
SpeedEvilWell - yes05:36
SpeedEvilIf you use a web-text service of some form and wifi05:36
SpeedEvilOr USB network05:36
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DocScrutinizereven some SIP providers allow that, but you'd need a SIP client that can send INFO messages then05:39
DocScrutinizerso for I only know of twinkle, and that's not running on maemo05:39
DocScrutinizerso far*05:40
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ds3Is that a Nokla product?06:23
Seabladedidn't take long for chinese knockoffs06:24
SpeedEvilWell - I'll let you guess on that one.06:24
SeabladeWell considering it has pics of at least 2 different phones listed, yea Ill go with fake trying to rip you off;)06:25
wmarone_nah, not a Nokla06:25
Hurriansurprising that chinese symbian knockoffs work as good as the real symbian06:25
wmarone_it's quite clearly spelled "Nokia"06:25
wmarone_with a DROID 2 knockoff design06:25
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HurrianDoc: heard of anyone unpacking that M6 root filesystem?06:38
Hurrianhmm, i don't think rootfs.lzo is a ubifs dump a la m5 root06:42
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DocScrutinizerHurrian: not yet, other than on device ;-)06:59
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DocScrutinizerwmarone_: are you sure about the spelling? seen several Nokla phones ;-P07:02
HurrianDoc: this lzo file sure is odd07:02
Hurrianafter forcibly adding the magic i get header corrupted07:03
Hurrianmmm, let's try prepending the magic instead07:03
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Termanagood morning07:07
opdf2is it 1gb physical ram on n9?07:07
Termanaopdf2, AFAIK yes07:07
opdf2meego multitask looks awesome07:07
dymaxionis it me or am I spending far too much time hunting down every N9 teaser video and watching them over and over again! How sad! :-)07:08
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opdf2i really hope there's room for 4 great OSes07:11
opdf2dymaxion:  you saw gsmarena's first look?07:11
dymaxionyep... I can't wait to get one.. hopefully in HK they will bring em out early... I'll be straight down the Nokia store to play :-)07:12
opdf2too bad they closed Nokia flagships stores in usa07:12
dymaxionreally.. that's a shame...07:12
dymaxionin Asia they still have very strong brand07:12
dymaxionit's a shame ppl have been moving to HTC etc... my other half has a Sony Experia arc, and I've got a temporary (HTC Aria) broken... poor call quality , poor build..07:13
dymaxionafter a while the OS gets completely boring and cameras always disappoint...   bring on the N9...  !   (Unfortuantely my N8 died after 4 months)07:14
dymaxiondead N8 <--- was my own fault... trying to use Maps, lost on a mountain during a tropical rainstorm which was more like a power-shower! :-)07:16
opdf2loving the pentaband umts07:16
opdf2need to see more pentaband devices07:16
dymaxionyep... I get frustrated that Nokia don't market that aspect07:16
dymaxionin fact they are rubbish at marketing their best features...   if only they have Jobs' hypnotic presentations...07:17
dymaxionwaching marko Ahtisaari's presentation was a bit painful... so many long pauses, dead pan face etc.07:17
opdf2yeah Apple's foray into physical retail store space is astounding07:19
opdf2something Sony and Nokia have tried and failed in america07:19
opdf2Nokia deserves better marketing soo badly07:20
dymaxionwould it be fair to say there's a bit of "home" support because Apple is US company?07:20
opdf2its hard to change the usa's state of mind on Nokia.. the brand is recognized as cheap in usa07:21
dymaxionI think the US mentality is very different from Europe... I'm from UK originally, and we find American marketing lacking subtlety, and too many superlatives on matters of to little substance07:21
opdf2americans are easily subdued by marketing tricks07:22
dymaxionand the reason is that US carriers have always controlled Nokia, not allowing their top phones on the market etc unless on punitive contact terms for Nokia..  I find it strange that ppl in the USA don't realise how far behind (mobile networks) they are vs rest of Europe/Asia07:22
dymaxionyou seem to be immune! :-)07:22
Hurrianlzop: rootfs.lzo: you need a newer version of lzop07:23
opdf2unfortunately i dont see N9 succeeding in usa unless subsidized07:24
opdf2jeez even then, i dont think anyone can break iphone's hypnotic powers07:25
opdf2only major carriers that carry the iphone can survive in usa07:26
Hurrianwhy do people love the iphone?07:26
dymaxionyes it drives me mad... ppl using the iphone camera and thinking it's the best thing on the planet, or wondering why reception is bad and blaming the network, but I stand next to them with my N8 and no problem... etc.07:26
Hurrianit's extremely overpriced, the camera is the shittiest 5MP i've ever seen, battery life is meh, and the screen has terrible viewing angles07:27
dymaxionthen I see low light photos on the iphone... and it's rubbish... i have done a lot of photos on my other half's Experia Arc... again worlds apart...    hypnotised :-(07:27
opdf2majority of people don't care about all that07:28
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dymaxionyes viewing angles... ppl would care if they realised!07:28
dymaxionthey get annoyed and think it's normal...07:28
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opdf2ios is monkey easy to use, smooth, streamlined experience...and the hardware is a fashion accessory07:28
opdf2+ marketing is no fail07:29
dymaxionI wonder about the software stack on N9 though.. whether meego allows deep linking between apps as Mango has... I think inter-woven apps is key to a functional OS07:29
opdf2mango is great too... i dont want to see duopoly os07:29
Hurrianreminds me of the iFruitphone in GTA IV: no buttons, no reception, no storage capacity, all ego07:30
Hurrianactually, i cant believe they predicted "no reception" right07:30
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dymaxionalso iOS clever lock in....    proprietary connectors...  !    my mates have spend hundreds of pounds on accessories... docks, speakers etc.. don't want to move away from iOS cos that will all be wasted07:30
dymaxionthen charged to license use of the proprietary connectors...07:31
Hurrianherp da dee derp, i love laughing at people who bought expensive-ass Bose docks way back when and now on the iphone, they're "unauthorized accessories"07:31
Hurriandoes anyone still remember what a 3.5 is?07:31
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Hurrianlzop: rootfs.lzo: header corrupted (checksum error)07:41
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* SpeedEvil fails at lollery.09:05
SpeedEvilAlso sleep.09:05
DocScrutinizerso sleep!09:06
SpeedEvilCan't sleep, clowns will eat me.09:06
DocScrutinizerwhile I did some updates to your new wikipage :-)09:07
* DocScrutinizer wonders how long it will take til finally can get service of some 14 y o dude brings the shopping from supermarket, on a phonecall - here in friggin Germany09:10
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khertanMorning all !10:32
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* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass11:00
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dm8tbrmood groaning11:03
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DocScrutinizermorning dm8tbr11:35
DocScrutinizeranybody else getting "java exception: nullpointer" for this probably interesting address?
TermanaDocScrutinizer, it says "You are not authorized to access this page"11:36
dm8tbr'you're not authorized...'11:36
TermanaDocScrutinizer, am I about to v& by the US feds?11:36
Termanato be*11:36
Termanashiiite, there's a white van outside11:37
dm8tbrthey'll want to make sure and nuke you from orbit11:37
DocScrutinizernonsense, these are the long-to-disclose parts of Nokia's FCC approval for N9(50?)11:38
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DocScrutinizer  external photos   External Photos  05/10/2011  pdf  06/24/2011 (<-- date-available)11:39
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: If I follow the link from the second URL I get a null pointer too now11:39
DocScrutinizerso is it still yesterday in that par of USA where FCC resides?11:40
DocScrutinizermy clock shows 2011-06-24 here11:41
dm8tbrmh, by now it should be past midnight everywhere but alaska IIRC11:41
DocScrutinizer  manual   Users Manual  05/10/2011  pdf  06/24/2011  >:-(11:41
dm8tbroh, also past midnight in alaska too11:42
dm8tbrno excuses then11:42
DocScrutinizerwell, FCC never hurries or rushes things11:42
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dm8tbrprolly an official has to push some buttons and move some levers manually11:43
jonwilbah, my code wont run11:43
jonwilThe binary just gives a segfault and I cant work out why11:44
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DocScrutinizer   Request for confidentiality   Cover Letter(s)  >> Pursuant to Sections 0.457 (d) (l) (ii) and 0.459 of the Commission’s Rules, the Applicant hereby requests confidential treatment of some of the information accompanying this Application of FCC ID: LJPRM-680 and as outlined below: - - - Exhibit 4: Block Diagram Exhibit 5: Schematic Diagrams Exhibit 12: Theory of11:44
DocScrutinizerOperation / Description of Circuitry<<<  GRRRRRR >:-(11:44
TermanaHmm, I can't even access that11:45
TermanaThey all tell me I'm not authorised11:45
DocScrutinizerseems direct links don't work11:45
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DocScrutinizertry this11:46
jonwilAnyone know how to tell why my binary might be segfaulting?11:46
jonwilIts just basically an empty cpp file11:46
DocScrutinizerwrong type of runtime libs11:47
jonwilwell I am running the standard N900 install fully updated11:47
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DocScrutinizerarm ELF on x86?11:49
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jonwilthis is an ARM ELF running on my N90011:49
jonwilits definatly ARM11:49
jonwilsince gcc -v says its ARM11:50
jonwiland since scratchbox says "FREMANTLE_ARMEL"11:50
DocScrutinizerI'd use file nevertheless11:50
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DocScrutinizeralso strace should usually help a lot, no?11:50
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dm8tbrIt's much more fun if you have a binary compiled for the wrong libc.11:51
DocScrutinizereven gdb if nothing else11:51
dm8tbrthen you can try to run it and it will say 'File not found'11:51
jonwilfile says "ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped11:51
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: that's what I meant11:51
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jonwilwhere do I get strace for the N900?11:52
DocScrutinizerjonwil: strace it11:52
DocScrutinizertools repo11:52
nid0not enough's ssl secured tbh11:55
jonwilThats what strace has to say11:56
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jonwilaha, I found it, somehow its transmitting as ascii12:01
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DocScrutinizerlooks very strange12:09
MohammadAGanyone doing Maemo 5 devel with Qt might find these classes interesting
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lardman|goneJaffa: re build targets, yeah I noticed that12:12
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lardmanmorning all12:12
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jonwilI think I might have a solution to bug 8347...12:16
povbotBug Cell Broadcast Feature not available12:16
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Jaffalardman: I didn't get a chance to expand on it last night.12:25
Jaffalardman: Instead I was busy trying to build a Harmattan app for qgil to run :)12:26
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lardmanJaffa: no worries12:26
lardmanI'm going to try some coding this weekend, assuming I can set up the SDK off line12:27
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MohammadAGHarmattan SDK installer is an online installer12:32
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jonwilThere are manual setup steps12:33
TermanaThere better be, otherwise I will rage12:35
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lardmanurgh, online, that's a pita12:39
lardmanit's Python though, so I guess I could download the components and do an offline install12:40
lardmanor I can curse TalkTalk for not getting on with my phone line + broadband12:40
jonwilThat should be it12:41
JaffaRST38h: Fantastic news isn't it, on Qt Quick Components :-)12:42
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jonwilThe only problem I had getting the Harmattan SDK going was that Gentoo is missing a package for scratchbox-devkit-hashutils-squeeze-sdk12:43
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MohammadAGJaffa, thoughts on QML and Qt components?12:45
MohammadAGbefore I start rewriting Sociality :p12:45
RST38hJaffa: It is12:47
RST38hJaffa: The whole thing has a sense of finality to it though12:47
lardmanthanks jonwil12:49
* lardman heads off to Bristol for the day, see you all later12:51
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JaffaMohammadAG: QML good. Qt Components - API looks good, but not tried using in anger yet.12:54
MohammadAGso should I make the switch for Harmattan?12:57
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MohammadAGyay figured out how to restart X13:00
jonwilI wish I could get this thing to properly debug or libsms.so13:01
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jonwilif I could single step the code in libsms or libcsd-sms, I would have this licked no problems13:05
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divanHave anyone seen the Boost libraries build for Maemo?13:10
griMeegotouch applications by default have a home and back button. When using the "blanco" (n9) theme, the back button is hidden and the toolbar moves to bottom. Does the same behaviour also apply to the qml-components or do I manually have to find out whether I should place the toolbar on top or bottom and create/hide specific buttons?13:13
MohammadAGI'm also interested in that13:16
mikkovdivan: in Extras, even multiple version13:17
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khertanMohammadAG: until you didn't have need for advanced text manipulation ... qml is not too bad13:19
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khertanMohammadAG: also be carreful to not load use qml native component for loading things. The user agent isn't properly set and so it s didn't work on 3G with many phone isp13:20
MohammadAGkhertan, you mean QWebView in QML?13:21
khertanMohammadAG: <- works on wifi, not over 3G13:21
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khertanMohammadAG: qwebview, XmlListModel, and everything that made call to a QNetworkFactory13:22
MohammadAGwhat if I use C++ for the backend and QML for the UI?13:23
khertanMohammadAG: it ll be fix quickly, it s a well know bug13:23
khertanMohammadAG: it ll be ok as you can set the useragent in the qnetworkfactory qnetworkrequest in c++13:24
griby the way: Is there a way that ListView etc. completely load the model instead of creating delegates while scrolling? (For scrollbar reasons)13:28
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MohammadAGgri, not sure but I think qmltube does it13:30
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griMohammadAG: I'll take a look at that, not sure if it only creates a flickable and stacks the items or something like that13:31
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jonwilbah, I cant get this working13:32
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jonwilI cant get the debugger to stop on the function I want it to stop on13:34
jonwilso I can see whats going on with this code13:34
jonwiland what the numbers look like :(13:34
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jonwilbah I give up13:53
DocScrutinizer(<jonwil> I think I might have a solution to bug 8347...) what? really?13:53
povbotBug Cell Broadcast Feature not available13:53
jonwilIf I could just get the debugger to stop on sms_gsm_cb_routing_ntf I might be able to see whats going on13:54
jonwilIf I can debug the .asm for it I can verify my theories of how the data looks13:54
jonwiland can see if in fact my potential fix idea is fesable13:54
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DocScrutinizerhmm, why doesn't gdb work?13:56
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DocScrutinizerIt's supposed to stop at breakpoints you've set13:57
jonwilThe problem I have is that (and hence is loaded dynamically13:57
jonwilso its hard to get GDB to stop on it13:57
DocScrutinizerof course I guess debugging .so is a bit more tricky13:57
DocScrutinizerindeed, you'd need to debug the process that loads the .so13:58
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jonwilaha, I have an idea13:59
vi__so do I, get some golf clubs and meet me on the roof in 20 minutes.14:00
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DocScrutinizerthose not interested in golf can meet me in the beergarden down the street in 5 min14:01
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jonwilfinally, I have what should be a breakpoint where I want it14:12
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jonwilok, I think I know whats going on14:21
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jonwilWhats the correct command for apt-get to say "I dont care what version I have, re-download it anyway"?14:35
psycho_oreosapt-get install --reinstall ?14:36
jonwilthats what I needed14:36
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jonwilnow I can be sure my file isn't busted14:36
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jonwilok, I now have a proper with my one byte change in place14:42
jonwilnow I just need the tower to send me another CBSMS14:44
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jonwilok, NOW the tower decides not to send me a CBSMS14:48
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jonwilone more CBSMS and I can verify that my fix is the right solution at this point15:03
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jonwilThankyou to nokia for harmattanbeta\libsms0_i386.deb for letting me see how the CBS code works on harmattan and that my fix for Maemo is on the right track :)15:08
jonwilI just hope all this starting and stopping of CSD isn't putting my phone at risk somehow15:09
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jonwilIf I could find out how to decode a CBSMS or the SMS alphabet, I could verify that what dbus just sent my dbus test program is correct15:12
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edheldilwhat fix are you working on?15:23
jonwilbug 834715:23
povbotBug Cell Broadcast Feature not available15:23
jonwilI have a dump of what should be a cell broadcast SMS15:23
jonwilbut I need some code or something to decode the actual message to see if its valid15:23
jonwili.e. if the data decodes to a valid looking string15:24
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SpeedEviljonwil: have you looked at the osmocom or whatever the acronym mailing listsl?/15:42
jonwilcurrently playing with some ofono code15:42
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* khertan currently playing ... hum not ... qml isn't funny ... 15:46
* khertan trying to resolve that :
jonwilIf this decodes properly, then all we need for cbsms to work should be a one-byte change to plus a userspace daemon to wire up to the IncomingCBS signal15:47
jonwilI mean userspace widget15:47
SpeedEviljonwil: - and the coresponding15:47
jonwilwhich can do something with the incoming SMS15:47
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SpeedEvilopen source base station project15:47
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jonwilok, ofono test code is correct15:48
jonwilI see output of EastVicPark which seems to be correct15:50
jonwilthat reflects a suburb near where I live which I assume is the nearest Optus GSM tower15:50
jonwilor the one that the phone has decided to talk to anyway15:50
SpeedEvilYou took a break from this?15:50
jonwilyes I took a break for a while15:51
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jonwilit was only yesterday when I started playing with harmattan-beta-SDK and specifically the libsms0 i386 package that was included15:51
SpeedEvilTried applying for harmattan dev?15:52
jonwilnope, not interested in harmattan15:52
jonwilinterested in maemo15:52
jonwilsince thats what my hardware runs15:52
jonwilonly value of harmattan-beta-sdk is info to help with understanding fremantle15:53
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SpeedEvilI was meaning for hw.15:53
SpeedEvilbut yes.15:53
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jonwilI dont want or need new hardware :)15:53
SpeedEvilStill keeping my n900 for a while.15:53
jonwilof note is that harmattan SDK contains libbmeipc-dev package for harmattan version of bme/libbmeipc15:53
SpeedEvilWondering, as in principle your skillz might be useful for n950/n9/15:54
khertanjonwil: think of it two time ... as many have problem with sim recognition in their n90015:54
xd13is meego going to be community supported like maemo ?15:55
khertani doubt mine used all days will last for 1 more year15:55
SpeedEvilxd13: Meego - yes.15:55
khertanxd13: there is already a community edition for n900 :)15:55
SpeedEvilxd13: Harmattan - that's another question15:55
xd13isn't meego harmattan ?15:55
xd13i thought it was one word15:55
khertanthere is more chance of a MeeGo community edition ... than maemo harmattan and fremantle15:56
SpeedEvilHarmattan is meego in some ways.15:56
xd13chances are i will b buying n915:56
SpeedEvilHarmattan forked from meego 12 monthsish ago15:56
khertanSpeedEvil: oh ... really ?15:56
khertanit s 1.2 ?15:56
SpeedEvilIt's a mash of meego + maemo components.15:57
khertanhum ... oh it could be 1.2, as it was forked 12 month ago ...15:57
chem|stkhertan: it is 1.2 upwards15:57
chem|stafter 1.3 they moved most devel people to it15:58
jonwilFrom looking at the SDK, most of the lower level bits are still the closed-source Maemo bits15:58
chem|stor was it 1.2 already?15:58
xd13all i know is depending on the price of the n9 when it comes out i'll either wait for a price drop or purchase15:58
jonwilcell stack for example15:58
SpeedEviljonwil: Indeed.15:58
jonwilGive me an N9 with the keyboard and touchscreen of the N900 (stylus included) and sell it at retail and I will be VERY interested15:58
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chem|stjonwil: n950 devel is it15:59
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SpeedEviljonwil: An open n9 with perhaps a reverse engineered security framework and android...15:59
xd13n950 man they rly need 2 put that out for people 2 purchase15:59
CorsacRE security framework? why so?15:59
chem|stsadly we wont see any resistive screens any time soon again15:59
SpeedEvilxd13: ++15:59
BCMMthe keyboard is important. the n900 is the smallest netbook i've ever seen; phone calls are a bonus15:59
khertanjonwil: welcome to the club15:59
chem|stBCMM: +116:00
khertankeyboard is essential16:00
jonwilThe N950 is good for dev but no good as a daily use phone16:00
SpeedEvilCorsac: Well - I'm going off some of Doc's comments - I haven't investigated exactly how the scurity framework will work.16:00
khertanjonwil: ?16:00
SpeedEviljonwil: ?16:00
xd13i don't know, if n900 didn't have phone capability i would probably have an android phone right now and no n90016:00
xd13jonwil wut y not?16:00
CorsacDoc doesn't have a clue about security, the only thing he sees is DRM16:00
SpeedEviljonwil: I don't personally see why.16:00
* khertan think that MeeGo community edition is better and better16:00
jonwilI mean that because its not possible to replace, if you use it as a daily phone and its damaged, stolen or otherwise has problems, you are in trouble16:00
* khertan will probably not switch to android ... due to poor python support16:00
* SpeedEvil needs to try installing meego CE16:00
xd13thats y u need to take care of ur phone16:01
jonwilyeah I do take care16:01
xd13i've had n900 since its rls in 200916:01
jonwilbut things happen beyond my control16:01
SpeedEvilkhertan: I don't mean switching to android - I mean to be able to run externals16:01
SpeedEviljonwil:  Ah16:01
xd13its in mint condition right now16:01
xd13i never put a screen protector on it so a few slight marks but except for that perfect16:01
chem|stkhertan: python... what about uploading your personal data to google...16:01
SpeedEvilxd13: You can take care of the phone, and it can still develop wierd faults.16:01
xd13very true16:01
SpeedEvilAlso - the hinge looks damn fragile to me.16:01
xd13but n900 has been like a godsend to me16:02
SpeedEvilCan anyone comment on how the hinge feels?16:02
khertanmine was dropped three from 1,5 meter on floor without impact :)16:02
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xd13as much as i love a keyboard i'm thinking if i could get used to on screen buttons...........i will miss the keyboardi think16:02
* khertan think n900 will be the perfect device with more ram and larger screen16:02
khertanexactly what is n95016:02
xd13and better screen16:03
khertann900 screen is pretty good16:03
SpeedEvilSee that - for diffenences16:03
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xd13can someone explain to me tft and olded so i don't have 2 look it up, i rly should know it but i don't16:04
xd13and which is better16:04
khertannon-Zeiss f/2.2, 28mm focal kength, 10cm to inf. focus  <<< so this is why they abandon it !16:04
SpeedEvilOLED is LED based16:04
SpeedEvilkhertan: ?16:04
khertanSpeedEvil: speculation16:04
SpeedEvilIt emits light. It is more efficient at low amounts of white on screen16:04
SpeedEvilkhertan: Yes - I'm failing to parse that as a sentance with meaning16:05
xd13is one better than the other or r there good/bad to both sides ?16:05
SpeedEvilDue to the use of different display technologies, on the N9, developers  should avoid one pixel width fonts(?) and graphical objects with lines  one pixel wide. Also avoid the extensive use of bright colors,  especially white, when developing for OLED displays as this increases  the power consumption (typical for OLED displays).16:05
lcuksingle pixel use is tricky to use in a ux that involves scaling16:06
lcukand also smudges muchly16:06
lcukwhen you AA it16:06
SpeedEvilIt's not that simple.16:07
SpeedEvilIf you're doing AA, you need to know the hardware layout, and deal with it16:07
jonwilok, so should I post my Cell Broadcast SMS findings to the mailing list?16:07
SpeedEvilAny arrangement that attempts to do AA without knowuing the pixel orientation and setup fails hard16:07
xd13aa ?16:07
lcukSpeedEvil, of course16:08
lcukbut I did some testing earlier this yyear16:08
jonwilok, will post to the mailing list then16:08
lcukand was very vocal about the issues of lines16:08
BCMMSpeedEvil: surely it's OK provided you don't attempt subpixel hinting?16:08
BCMM(which is a recipe for ugly and headaches anyway)16:08
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xd13wut r the chances nokia is just teasing us about n950 ?16:09
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lcukSpeedEvil, single thickness clock:    then panned onto a "desktop"    then the fremantle same
lcukSpeedEvil, unless realtime rendering of single thickness lines can be done everywhere their recommendation is right.16:12
SpeedEvilThey can't.16:12
SpeedEvilI was meaning that 'AA' - can make thins much worse if you just try to pretend it's a simple triplet display.16:13
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SpeedEvilerr - no16:18
chem|stwe need to get people not to buy N9s...16:18
BCMMsee, i don't know if my eyes are weird or what, but i see obvious coloured fringes in the subpixel example16:18
BCMMand it's horrible16:18
xd13what is nfc ?16:18
chem|stnear field communications16:18
xd13which is ?16:19
chem|stpayment method16:19
xd13oh wow that thing16:19
MohammadAGsaying it's a payment method isn't exactly right :p16:19
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chem|stits a chip that can do what the name sais, prolly used for payment and other things16:19
dm8tbrnfc is rfid on steroids16:20
dm8tbrand it's just that16:20
chem|stMohammadAG: yeah but for users it is just that16:20
dm8tbrif you want payments, that's a protocol on top of that involving smart-card chips etc16:20
chem|stdm8tbr: growing muscels?16:20
xd13don't need it16:20
chem|stor breasts?16:20
MohammadAGthe N9 can pair bluetooth devices with NFC16:20
MohammadAGor send photos16:20
dm8tbrchem|st: making it think it's stronger than it is ;)16:20
MohammadAGdevs can use it to send crap16:21
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dm8tbrdoes the n9 have nfc with secure element?16:21
chem|stMohammadAG: yeah it is another BT only working on close range16:21
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chem|stnfc is said to do the same as BT was said...16:21
chem|stbut more secure in some way16:22
SpeedEvilchem|st: BT can be read at a hundred meters easily16:22
SpeedEvilthis may not be desirable for NFC16:22
BCMMany short-range thing can probably be done at longer ranges if you have a directional antenna and no respect for following spec16:23
SpeedEvilNFC is near-field.16:23
SpeedEvilIt drops off as 1/r^4, not 1/r^216:23
SpeedEvilSo at 10 times the range, the signal is down 10000 times, not 100.16:24
lcukthey made a special EM signal?16:24
SpeedEvilIt's M, not E16:24
dm8tbrSpeedEvil: it might couple into objects in the near field though and if your're lucky/unlucky they are resonant...16:25
SpeedEvilSimplifying a lot for those that don't understand.16:25
chem|stSpeedEvil: the capabilities payment, data transfer, doorlocks16:25
SpeedEvilDepending on stuff.16:26
nid0you can be much more inventive with nfc than that though16:26
chem|stSpeedEvil: not talking about hardware though16:26
SpeedEvilNFC has a lot of meanings to a lot of people, and the devices do not always interoperate16:26
nid0putting my phone on my bedside table and having it go auto silent for the night would be far more useful16:26
nid0only takes an nfc sticker on the table16:26
SpeedEvilAnd for the NFC 'reader' to be very low power and active continuously.16:27
SpeedEvilSomething that I question.16:27
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jonwilWhat makes NFC different to all those transit cards or office door cards that already exist?16:33
jonwilother than being built into a phone16:33
X-Fadejonwil: you can influence the data.16:33
jonwilinstead of being a separate card16:33
SpeedEviljonwil: It's a reader too16:34
jonwiloh nice16:34
SpeedEvilI suspect in practice 'our'a ccess to it will be very strongly limited for seciruty reasons.16:35
jonwilI posted all my Cell Broadcast SMS stuff to the devel mailing list16:35
RST38hMeanwhile: A Russian woman died of a heart attack at her own funeral, after waking up to find praying mourners filing past her coffin.16:36
griIn the future I also have to put a NFC sticker at my cat when the rfid chip gets old? :D16:37
jonwilI look forward to a day when I can pay someone else money right then and there with a card, no need to worry about having to find an ATM to get cash from or hoping the other guy has an expensive merchant account with Visa or MasterCard16:37
nid0no particular reason to16:37
nid0for purely identifying a chip, nfc has no benefits over rfid16:38
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SpeedEviljonwil: As I understand it the NFC payments thing is _not_ peer-peer16:38
jonwilI guess I was thinking of something like Square for iPhone only using the NFC reader already in the phone16:39
jonwiland someone finding a way to convince the credit card companies to support it without the need to spend huge bucks on expensive merchant account annual fees etc16:40
jonwilbut I doubt the credit card companies want to make it easier for Joe Blogs to accept credit cards, the risks are too big16:40
jonwilAfter all, Joe Blogs might really be Joe the fraudster16:41
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nid0that would be possible with debit cards, but no way credit cards are going to take the risks on reversible transactions16:41
jonwilanyhow, this is a moot point right now as the N900 sitting in front of me has no NFC :P16:42
jonwiland I have no need to be able to accept payment from random people in this way16:42
nid0device location aspects of nfc are way more interesting to me anyway16:43
jonwilI think using NFC as a security device has possibilities, i.e. instead of using your keys to get inside your house, you swipe your phone over the reader and the door unlocks.16:44
jonwilAlthough given that there have been alternatives to standard keys for years and very few houses use them, I doubt that's a big market16:44
nid0the problem is that door unlocks with alternative methods generally also have a key for backup16:45
nid0which makes the alternative method kind of redundant as the lock may as well not have it and remain just as pickable16:45
jonwilPersonally I would err on the side of security and not have key backup at all16:46
nid0most people dont like, for example, being locked in/out of their house if there's a power cut though16:46
nid0or if the reader breaks16:46
nid0or if their phone breaks16:46
jonwilThats why you power the lock with both batteries and mains16:46
jonwilIf the mains goes off, the batteries kick in16:47
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divanIs there any QtDesigner/Creator plugins for Maemo-specific widgets(like Maemo5ValueButton)?16:47
nid0and how long's the battery last? my keyed lock can last through an infinite-length power outage16:47
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jonwilYou can also have an external plug where you can connect standard off-the-shelf batteries in case of emergency16:47
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nid0you're then introducing weaknesses into the lock and housing16:48
jonwilbut ultimatly if you want more security than a standard keyed lock, you have to give up something somewhere16:49
SpeedEviljonwil: The other issue is that what happens if the n9 battery dies16:49
jonwilThats a good point16:49
nid0swipey card locks and similar are great for looking fancy, but theyre generally shitty for actual security because theyre either bypassable by design or risk being unopenable with failures either in the lock or device unlocking it16:49
jonwilswipe card locks are best in environments where you need to give a bunch of different people keys and you want auditing and logging16:50
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jonwilhence why office buildings use them16:50
jonwiland hotels use them16:51
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nid0another key reason places like them use them though is there're people on hand if the lock suddenly doesnt work for any reason16:51
RST38hAnd they are also generally perfect for unlocking doors with a credit card pushed into the gap between the door and the frame16:51
nid0where if you come home at 3am for a night out and the lock fails you're shit out of luck16:51
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nid0this building errs on the side of caution with it's rfid entry doors, it has several that relevant fobs will work on and uses magnetic locks16:53
nid0the downside ofc being powercut = doors all unlocked16:53
jonwilAuto-open-on-powercut tends to be mandated for safety reasons16:55
khertan(15:48:46) SpeedEvil: jonwil: The other issue is that what happens if the n9 battery dies <<< nfc can work without battery16:55
jonwilalthough auto-open-on-fire-alarm also seems to be mandated16:55
nid0precisely, but on a house it equals a great way to bypass the lock :P16:55
SpeedEvilkhertan: yes, it can.16:55
SpeedEvilkhertan: The question is - what does it do without power - implementations vary.16:56
SpeedEvilkhertan: Does it rely on a back-end to do the right thing - for example pair with bliuetooth speakers, or open your door, with the NFC chip being a dumb radio.16:56
* khertan would love to see device with digital print reader for unlocking (but which work fast)16:56
SpeedEvilOr are there smarts in the NFC chip that are able to do stuff independantly.16:56
SpeedEvilCapacitive screen with resolution to read prints.16:57
SpeedEvilkhertan: Also - iris recognition16:57
jonwilThe mythbusters busted fingerprint scanners as a security idea16:57
jonwilalthough iris recognition works16:57
khertaniris will be unusable in sun light condition and pretty slow16:57
jonwilvoice recognition could work16:58
khertanjonwil: fingerprint is still better than putting dumb four number code16:58
SpeedEvilkhertan: It's not slow16:58
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khertanSpeedEvil: i mean on an mobile phone16:58
ruskiebesh security... something you have, something you are and something you know16:58
SpeedEvilkhertan: ah - yes - you do need to move the camera to the eye16:58
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SpeedEvilruskie: naah.16:58
SpeedEvilruskie: There is _much_ better than that.16:58
SpeedEvilSomething you have, something you are, and something you don't know.16:59
* khertan want an integrated stungun16:59
* ruskie wants a tazer that looks like a phone he can hand off to a mugger and arm it in the process...16:59
khertanso someone still your phone ... and detect then thief aren't the trusted user ... and stun it16:59
nid0tbh, im happy that the n9 does at least come with theft tracking software17:00
khertanand i also an api to activated it to stupid user saying that khweeteur sucks because it s not done in qml17:00
khertannid0: ? there is on ?17:00
khertans/on/one ?17:00
nid0yeah, theres a piece of software in the included software list called "track and locate" or sth17:01
DocScrutinizerjonwil: WHO? it's been German CCC17:01
nid0Key applications: Facebook, Twitter, Skype, Joikuspot Wi-Fi tethering, Accuweather, AP News, Swype, Track and Protect, Galaxy on Fire 2, Real Golf, Angry Birds Magic, Mail, video player, Drive, Feeds, search, calculator, Calendar, Contacts, music player, web browser, messaging, photos, photo editor, Ovi Store, Maps17:01
DocScrutinizernot mythbusters17:01
nid0"track and protect"17:01
ruskieDocScrutinizer, could have been both17:01
jonwilMythbusters busted fingerprint readers in one episode17:01
ruskieMythBusters featured it17:01
jonwilOthers may have busted it also17:02
khertannid0: no NFS Shift ? there is a icon in the theme of this game17:02
jonwilbut Mythbusters is where I saw it17:02
DocScrutinizermythbusters are the modern 3 stooges17:02
DocScrutinizerthey busted nothing really17:02
DocScrutinizerexcept the things they blasted away with nitro17:02
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khertandidn't never heard of mythbuster17:02
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nid0khertan: no idea, thats just the key included software list on the nokia site17:02
nid0that list doesnt seem to be all inclusive though, as it doesnt include foursquare either17:03
nid0which is specifically mentioned at
DocScrutinizerkhertan: stuntman and SFX holiwood dudes that pretend to go science17:03
jonwilok, its been good talking about security and N9 and Cell Broadcast SMS but I have a hunger only the Kernel can satisfy so its time to go out and get some food (the success of CBSMS means that I am in a good mood and feeling like junk to celebrate :)17:03
nid0though it might just be some will be on ovi rather than preloaded17:03
jonwilcya later guys17:03
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khertannid0: also :)17:04
DocScrutinizersucess???? I obviously missed something17:04
SpeedEvilhe's decoded a broadcast CBS17:04
DocScrutinizerI could do that probably, with wireshark17:04
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DocScrutinizerhope he used sth better17:05
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DocScrutinizeralas it seems SMSCB is a strictly 2G thing17:05
DocScrutinizernever seen any on 3G17:06
khertanand it s17:06
DocScrutinizerso it's almost getting obsolete?17:06
khertanand it s usefull for what ?17:06
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DocScrutinizerin Japan they send tsunami warning17:06
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DocScrutinizerhere you may get homezone notifications17:06
khertanhum ... so they can prepare cam ?17:06
javispedrodo you realize this could mean than the lack of cbsms support in the n900 could have caused indirect tsunami deaths?17:07
khertanoh ... this thing that is implemented in all s40 nokia phone which was never working in France17:07
DocScrutinizerI'm aware of this17:07
khertanand for those not having phone ?17:07
khertanit s maybe not frequent in japan ... :)17:07
DocScrutinizerthose will get a call from you on landline17:08
DocScrutinizeror you run over and shake them17:08
DocScrutinizerI give a sh** what it's used for, I'm only interested if it's supported or not17:09
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DocScrutinizermy first mobile had no SMS support at all - "why do you need that? it's not even working as carriers don't support it here". One year later I was the only one who couldn't text for free17:10
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DocScrutinizer(yes, there's been a time where SMS were free, and only when carriers noticed users like it, they started to charge for it)17:11
nid0I had a long conversation with a vodafone sales rep once who told me that "cameras are the new thing, but theyll never be available in phones you can get free on contract"17:11
nid012 months later, practically every phone on my o2 contract renewal list had a camera17:12
ruskiefrankly tha cameras in cell phones even the better ones aren't worth it17:12
DocScrutinizerthe hackers here wil know where I come from, and why it's stupid to ignore technology on a "who's using it" rationale17:12
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nid0sadly though, all the mobile carriers here are largely doing that17:14
ruskiehmm is it just me or does qmfmail seem more useless than modest17:14
DocScrutinizerruskie: I dare to differ. I'd friggin useful17:14
nid0the 4g spectrum sale that's coming soon is expected to do pretty badly, with the rationale being that people dont use 3g much so why bother with 4g17:14
SpeedEvilruskie: WFM17:14
nid0and they dont get that they arent raking in cash from 3g because it's 1) overpriced 2) shitty coverage and 3) shitty speed17:15
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ruskieSpeedEvil, so noisy pic...17:15
ruskie <-- frankly can't use this for anything much really17:16
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Hurrianruskie, is that from the n900?17:17
ruskieDocScrutinizer, ? qmfmail? it didn't even load anything from my INBOX... I expect an IMAP client to get a listing quickly...17:17
ruskieHurrian, yup17:17
javispedromeegotouch does too many things17:17
Hurrianthe n900's camera is terrible in bad lighting conditions17:17
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ruskieHurrian, which 90% of the time there are17:17
ruskieeven the pics SpeedEvil posted have noise in them17:18
SpeedEvilIn mediochre light, the default camera app does not do well17:18
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SpeedEvilruskie: And yes, they do.17:18
Hurrianspeedevil, so does blessn900. i always have to use fcamera to get the shots my N95 used to take17:18
ruskiefrankly I'm looking for a decent always-in-pocket dedicated camera myself17:19
DocScrutinizerruskie: ?? I'm talking about camera17:19
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hiemanshuthe only decent cameras are DSLRs17:20
DocScrutinizer*all* my pictures at are made by N900 (minus one)17:20
jogaare there any (free) alternatives to sygic mobile maps if I'd like to have turn by turn car navigation for n900?17:21
DocScrutinizerI just don't *need* a decent cam17:21
DocScrutinizerI need a everywhere and always cam17:21
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: DSLR17:21
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ruskiehiemanshu, not really17:22
ruskiethere are good alternatives17:22
hiemanshuruskie: hold on, I'll show you why17:22
ruskiefuji actually has good sensors that they stick in some of theirs17:22
ruskiethey put big sensors in the compacts17:22
DocScrutinizerI basically don'T care even if the shots are uggly as my butt17:22
ruskieapparently has great low-light properties and low noise17:22
DocScrutinizerI need the documentation, not the art and beauty17:23
ruskiehiemanshu, also there's a new upstart that has some interesting tech17:23
hiemanshuthats an unedited pic17:23
javispedroaha, so orientation works very much like the pre17:23
Hurrianoh, which reminds me, let's put all that wasted space, i mean the back cover to use. optical zoom, anyone?17:23
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hiemanshumost POS cameras I have used/have owned are shit, megapixel values barely matter17:24
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javispedromikkov: did you build SDL statically on warmux?17:25
ruskiehiemanshu, MP above 8 is pointless17:25
Hurriani have a 14.1 MPX sony cam, noisy as f***17:25
ruskiethe prob is that nobody bothers expanding the colour range and improve noise performance17:25
ruskie <-- btw that startup17:25
hiemanshuruskie: decent POS cameras are about $200-250, you could instead get a low end DSLR for about $350-400 which will perform much much better17:25
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ruskiehiemanshu, I already have a DSLR17:25
ruskieI want something I can have in my pocket17:25
ruskieand I'm planing on spending 100-200 eur on it17:26
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hiemanshuruskie: for POS, canon, fuji, nikon17:26
ruskiewell fuji seems to be the best low-light peformer17:27
ruskiethough lytro seems interesting as well17:27
hiemanshumy mind interperts P&S as POS :P17:27
ruskiefrankly don't want anything from canikon17:28
hiemanshuthe only reason there is a camera in my phone is that it comes with one17:28
hiemanshuruskie: well canon and nikon are decent17:28
hiemanshusony and olympus suck17:28
ruskieI'm quite happy with the pics my Oly produces17:29
hiemanshuI have an old oly too17:29
hiemanshufrom the 1990s17:29
ruskiee-520 here17:30
hiemanshuworks better than most cameras today17:30
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Damnshockhello everybody17:31
DamnshockI'm trying to flash the vanilla image17:31
Damnshockwithout success17:31
DamnshockI previously installed meego on it17:31
Hurrianopen kb, start flasher, hold U and connect17:32
hiemanshuDamnshock: first flash vanilla image, then eMMC and then again vanilla one17:32
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DamnshockHurrian: I'm trying to but it always boots meego17:32
ruskiehah I can get a samsung omnia 7 from my cellco for 140eur... they must be joking...17:32
hiemanshuruskie: I have heard good things about the Canon PowerShot S9517:33
Hurriandamnshock, flash the kernel then17:34
ruskiethe only interest for canon I might have is for use with the custom firmware stuff17:34
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DamnshockHurrian: any link to where I can get?17:34
ruskiebut frankly when I was comparing pics from various cams... each one tended to skew one colour or another17:34
hiemanshuDamnshock: need to flash the fiasco image first, then eMMC and then fiasco again17:34
Damnshockmmm hiemanshu I'll try that17:35
DocScrutinizeryou all noticed the "user" manual for harmattan/N950?17:35
hiemanshuDamnshock: dont reboot until the last flash17:35
DocScrutinizeravailable since ~3h17:35
DocScrutinizer15 psges pdf17:35
DocScrutinizerpages even17:36
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, nope? linky17:36
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DocScrutinizersee wiki n950 -> FCC registration17:36
Damnshockhiemanshu: flashing right now:)17:36
DocScrutinizerI'm not posting a direct link here, for some reason17:36
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Damnshockhiemanshu: it reboot by itself :S17:38
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, did you apply for a devkit?17:38
hiemanshuDamnshock: did you use the -R switch?17:38
javispedroGeneralAntilles: yep17:38
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, out of interest, what project did you put?17:38
javispedroGeneralAntilles: I want to see that for myself (the PC swearing ;) )17:39
Damnshockhiemanshu: yes, I did :S17:39
Damnshockcrap, should have done that hehe17:39
DocScrutinizerthere are also butt ugly exterio photos and rather interesting (for me) internal photos now17:39
javispedroGeneralAntilles: I've put some stuff about SDL games.17:39
GeneralAntillescommunity program?17:39
javispedroGeneralAntilles: yep, no launchpad account.17:39
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hiemanshuDamnshock: well just reflash the eMMC and fiasco now17:40
GeneralAntillesSomebody needs to apply with theme hacking in mind.17:40
javispedroI'm actually very interested in deciphering how does rotation work and how we can make SDL games first class citizens.17:40
Damnshockhiemanshu: I'm going to :)17:40
GeneralAntillesGiven what konttori has said about the themes.17:40
DocScrutinizerof course the internal photos aren't good enough to read a single chip print17:40
javispedroGeneralAntilles: agreed, they look awfully complex.17:41
DocScrutinizerbatery is BL-4D anyway17:41
GeneralAntillesian_r may be applying under theme hacking.17:41
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Damnshockhiemanshu: everything seems to have gone fine,booting the device right now. Thanks a lot for your help man!!!17:51
DocScrutinizerthe USB receptacle looks terribly strange17:52
hiemanshuDamnshock: np17:52
* khertan really hope to catch an n950 ... but have the feeling he will be disapointed ...17:53
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: SpeedEvil: jacekowski: you might be interested in the shots of N950 internal hw guts17:53
SpeedEvilOh - I diddn't look through them in detail17:53
dm8tbravailable since today in the morning17:54
DocScrutinizernot early in the morning though :-)17:54
dm8tbrack :)17:54
dm8tbrthe pictures are fairly low res though17:54
DocScrutinizeryep :-S17:54
DocScrutinizerno chip labels17:55
DocScrutinizerbut they removel ALL the cans :-)17:55
dm8tbrlet's hope some devices surface in the meego tampere community soon17:55
dm8tbrthen we can have a happy picture session17:55
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DocScrutinizerI hope to see one on my desk soon, though I'm undecided if I want to go N900-exploded again17:56
javispedrofragile hinge17:56
DocScrutinizerthat's why it got rejected by carriers I heard17:57
SpeedEvilThe hunge looks fragile17:57
SpeedEvilI wonder if it really is17:57
DocScrutinizeryou bet you mustn't sit on THAT device17:58
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javispedrostupid grainy photos17:58
DocScrutinizerN900 had chances to survive - this NOT17:58
jonwilThey could have just used the same design as the N900 but with upgraded hardware and OS17:59
jonwili.e. same sliding action17:59
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dm8tbrit's fairly similar to the E7 mechanics18:00
DocScrutinizernow if only they had placed the file "schematics" there as well, by acciddent18:00
DocScrutinizerN97 as well?18:00
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DocScrutinizerI like the fact it has a 42 key kbd18:01
javispedronah, hinge on n97 looks bigger18:01
DocScrutinizerwouldn't want that to be 4318:01
dm8tbrdunno would need to find an n97 to check :)18:01
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DocScrutinizerdomesheet, just as somebody asked yesterday "click or soft?"18:02
DocScrutinizeris there any way or time when/how you can get those schematics from FCC?18:03
khertanouch even the manual say hello developper18:03
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DocScrutinizeralso watch the number of pages18:04
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DocScrutinizerkhertan: developer doesn't mean a thing though, just "no consumer helpdesk included"18:04
Hurrianlzop.c: undocumented option '--no-header'. just for testing.18:05
DocScrutinizeralso doesn't have to adhere to mandatory stuff for consumer devices, like 911 et cetera18:05
javispedroah, my carrier is going to love it.18:06
javispedrobeing ironic18:06
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ?18:06
SpeedEvilOh - you can't easily register arbitrary phones?18:06
javispedroI can18:06
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khertanDocScrutinizer : This device is not commercially available. is pretty clear :)18:07
GeneralAntillesHrm, so, microsim18:07
khertanyep microsim18:07
GeneralAntillesWhat is AT&T gonna say when (if) I take an N9 in there.18:08
GeneralAntillesIs the N950 microsim?18:08
dm8tbrthought the thing said explicitly NOT microsim18:08
DocScrutinizeryou can get scary shit commercially, like chainsaws, even 750kV transformers18:08
ruskieor guns!!!18:08
khertanGeneralAntilles: nope18:08
DocScrutinizerdeveloper doesn't mean it's not on sale. Just the shops are different ;-P18:08
SpeedEvilThe n950 battery is replaceable - and it has a microSD?18:08
SpeedEvilOr no microSD18:08
SpeedEvilI need to go and look at those phoens18:08
khertanGeneralAntilles: Do not use a mini-UICC SIM card, also known as a micro-SIM card18:08
khertanit s pretty clear too :)18:09
dm8tbrSpeedEvil: if you pop off the back cover you can change the battery yes18:09
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: miniSIM18:09
SpeedEvilnot SIM18:09
khertann950 The battery in the device is non-removable,18:09
dm8tbrI was told in theory you can replace the N9 battery too, but it's much harder to pry it open18:09
DocScrutinizerbattery is BL-4D18:09
DocScrutinizerkhertan: it is18:10
dm8tbrkhertan: it sure is, saw it wednesday myself :)18:10
khertanGeneralAntilles: no sd slot18:10
SpeedEvilI wondered yesterday if the N9 can have its SIM live-swapped18:10
khertandm8tbr: so manual isn't uptodate :)18:10
GeneralAntillesI wonder if AT&T even needs to see tho phone.18:10
ShadowJKpeople cry and want battery hotswap, nokia makes coldswap impossible too. progress right there ;)18:11
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: both N9 ands N950 are microSIM18:11
dm8tbrkhertan: user replaceable and 'you can still do it if you know how' are two different things...18:11
khertanDocScrutinizer it s not what manual say18:11
khertandm8tbr: so it s not removable :)18:11
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, N950 manual seems to say not for N950.18:11
dm8tbrkhertan: if you consider yourself a dumb user, yes18:12
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khertandm8tbr: yeah but i mean ... use a second battery ... i ll not lost crew changing battery in the metro18:12
khertanor tubes18:12
khertanmust go on .... bye everyone18:12
dm8tbrkhertan: it works fine without the screws18:12
dm8tbryou still need to pry the plastic back off18:12
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: I may be wrong, but it sure looked like a standard sim what I saw in the N918:13
DocScrutinizerindeed, the holder seems to be 'normal' SIM size18:13
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: that's weird as the N9 specs clearly say microSIM iirc18:14
dm8tbralso the n950 inside picture looks  like 'nowadays' normal sim18:14
dm8tbrnotice normal SIM is credit card size and a bit out of fashion :D18:14
DocScrutinizer0Y161 holder looks like standard SIM anyway18:14
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: maybe I didn't look close enough. I'll have to check monday.18:15
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: not here, just grabbed a phone and "meh, not THIS one, the holder there is sure not right size" ;-P18:15
* dm8tbr still owns a _working_ Siemens P1 ...18:16
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DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: internal shots p13 looks like standard sized SIM18:16
dm8tbrthat takes 'normal' sims! :D18:16
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: ack, we'll need to check for the n9 too though18:16
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DocScrutinizerneither 0Y161 nor OY161 gives me any hit for hw component :-S18:18
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dm8tbrbtw: just noticed, on page 12 you can see the keyboard frame and it says N9 on it, lol, old casing18:20
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dm8tbrpage 5 you can see it better18:21
ShadowJK <- americans call hspa 4g? Is that why every random idiot is asking about 4G support?18:23
DocScrutinizerthis 0Y161 is *definitely* standard18:23
DocScrutinizernot micro18:23
DocScrutinizerI metered the dimensions18:23
nid0ShadowJK: it varies from carrier to carrier18:23
dm8tbrShadowJK: carrier marketing departments screwed this one up18:24
nid0at&t or one of them has a "4g" service thats just non-crippled 3g, afaik18:24
dm8tbrShadowJK: elreg ran a nice article that 4G is NOT what people claim :)18:24
DocScrutinizerN9 like there:
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DocScrutinizerwe know this device for quite some time now18:25
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: basically yes aiui18:25
nid0odd that they totally threw the design out and went for a candybar instead, really18:25
ShadowJKah I forget there was hspa+18:26
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DocScrutinizerhehe, *subtle* diffs between and FCC internal shots regarding PCB layout18:30
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: well one says 0724 the other 1122, go figure :)18:31
DocScrutinizerNB those engadget shots are 10 months old18:31
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X-FadeDocScrutinizer: N950 has regular sim slot btw.18:31
DocScrutinizerwe gathered as much :-)18:31
DocScrutinizernevertheless thanks18:32
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: any idea about if that might change for N9?18:32
DocScrutinizernot that it really matters, just out of curiosity18:33
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: No, don't know.18:33
DocScrutinizerwhat's your gut feeling?18:33
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: micro18:33
DocScrutinizermakes sense18:34
DocScrutinizermore "hype"18:34
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: I seem to recall reading or seeing it in one of the videos.18:34
DocScrutinizeryeah, me too that'S why I got taken by surprise to find mini on N95018:35
nid0it is also clearly listed on nokia's site as using micro :p18:35
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DocScrutinizerthat's what I meant18:35
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: what I'm wondering from this picture is. is the OMAP in the POP variety or is that RAM next to it. what's your take?18:36
DocScrutinizernid0: otoh the N950-flasher_release_notes don't list SIM in the list of hw diffs to N918:36
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: mompls18:36
nid0ima have to take a knife to my sim18:37
dm8tbrhow likely is it that the SIM holder size changes between an proto and the release version of the n9?18:37
dm8tbrmy guess would be unlikely, but that's just a guess18:37
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DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: I gues that huge critter next to SOC is companion chip. But that's really hard to tell18:38
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: companion chip as in PMIC, TI TWLxxxx?18:39
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: needs housing changes. Tooling is *expensive*. They won't do without massive need to18:39
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: yup18:40
dm8tbrk, tx18:40
DocScrutinizerjust a really uneducated guess18:40
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DocScrutinizerI think OMAP always comes POP18:40
dm8tbrwell I can have a look out. after all the N9 density here in hervanta should be quite high ;)18:40
DocScrutinizerTI OMAP18:40
plautiuswhy does this channel still have 300 lurkers?18:40
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nid0why not?18:41
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: IIRC you can get OMAP3 also in the non-pop variety, but TI doesn't recommend it18:41
DocScrutinizerwould be silly anyway for that class of device, that formfactor18:41
dm8tbrplautius: nokia just released a new maemo device, why shouldn't it?18:41
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DocScrutinizerplautius: plus there's ~1/2 a million happy N900 usres, maybe more18:42
plautiusdm8tbr: i thought it was a meego device18:42
dm8tbrplautius: that's what marketing likes to call it...18:42
plautiusDocScrutinizer: those numbers are real? that's great!18:42
DocScrutinizerso why does this chan ONLY have 365 users?18:42
plautiusthe only normal people i ever saw with n900s were in finland18:43
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dm8tbrthere are normal people in finland? *snicker*18:43
obcecado_plz define normal people18:43
plautiusi immediately asked them 'why did you buy that!'18:43
plautiushe said 'it's the best from nokia'18:43
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plautiushe had no idea about linux18:43
ChoomI have an n900 and do not live in finland18:44
DocScrutinizeryeah, the curse of maemo18:44
nid0I know lots of people who have / have had n900's18:44
dm8tbrplautius: congratulations you found out the motivation of 99% of all buyers18:44
Choomthe coworker sitting right beside me has an n900 and doesn't live in finland18:44
nid0though admittedly theyre all ex symbian coders in cambridge18:44
Choomand I have another two friends with n900s who don't live in finland18:44
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DocScrutinizerI know some that all are (ex-)Freerunner users18:45
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DocScrutinizerand they all are damn aware about the OS18:45
Choomeveryone I know bought it because it's a pocket linux bocks that also makes phone calls18:45
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Choomanother interesting thing18:47
Choomis that I'm seeing quite a lot of people excited about the N918:47
Choomeven apple fanboys who haven't bought anything besides iphones for the last 4 years18:47
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plautiusChoom: i will never understand what motivates the booboisie to buy a phone18:48
nid0even my girlfriend likes the idea of a black n918:48
plautiusi like them too - they look super18:48
nid0she mentioned it to an apple fanboy she works with though, and his reply was "pff, dead platform"18:48
nid0sadly, that says it all unless nokia make a definite statement to the contrary before release18:49
DocScrutinizertoo late18:49
DocScrutinizertrollop already confirmed THAT statement18:49
Choomwe don't know about their strategy yet18:49
Choomassuming the rumors of an android N9 also making it to the market, they might be targeting different markets with different OSes18:50
DocScrutinizeroh really? I have not the slightest doubt about trollops strategy18:50
Choomwindows for corporate environments, android for the average user, linux for the nerds18:50
Choomandroid is linux18:50
Choombut you get the point :P18:50
DocScrutinizerChoom: you're dreaming18:51
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nid0DocScrutinizer: im not so sure. the full video of the presentation to staff when he showed em the wp7 device hinted several times that meego dev is continuing with more devices on the way18:51
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DocScrutinizer""trolop says >no more linux devices after N9, even when it sells like skunk<"18:52
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DocScrutinizernewspaper of yesterday18:53
nid0iv seen that quote thrown about, but whats the actual source18:53
DocScrutinizerinterview with trolop18:53
nid0it certainly wasnt said in the 20 min presentation he gave18:53
Choomno, he said no more meego devices18:53
Choomand then stated that tne N9 was not meego but a Qt implementation18:54
DocScrutinizerhe's presenting a meego 1.2 harmattan device, and next day says "it's not meego" ???18:55
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nid0his video presentation also clearly has him saying that the ui concepts the n9 introduces are going to continue, qt is going to continue into the next billion "and elsewhere", and several references to the meego teams "continuing to do" great work etc etc, all in present tense18:55
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DocScrutinizererr, I'd need to actually watch that - alas I got no bucket around18:56
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Choomthere was also a possible leak yesterday with a phone very similar to the N9 and its windows counterpart running android18:57
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nid0even his first sentence of it gives a clue, talking about the meego team and the "quality of work that's being done", not been done18:57
DocScrutinizerI bet 98% of interested devels as well as users and other folks are rather convinced of "dead platform"18:58
jonwilme, all I care about is making my N900 the best it can possibly be :)18:58
nid0if he was in the mindset that "there thats the n9 launched, now meego can fuck off", im sure some past tenses would be slipping out18:58
lolcatDocScrutinizer: Its alive!18:58
Choomwhich, along with the fact that elob doesn't want to call it a meego phone, leads me to believe that they intend to target different market segments18:58
Choommight be wishful thinking from me, but I like to believe it18:58
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lolcatWhat does he want to call it?18:58
nid0well, he calls it meego frequently18:59
DocScrutinizerjonwil: I'm all with you18:59
ShadowJKChoom, like samsung's bada?19:00
DocScrutinizermaybe he starts calling it "OUR meego" next week, as opposed to "intel's meego" ;-P19:01
ShadowJKdid he say "intel's meegp"?19:01
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I dunno, I really can't watch such shit19:02
nid0the first minute and a half of the video is the main bit19:02
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DocScrutinizertoo long for my stomach19:03
nid0the next quarter of an hour is a finglish demonstration about how to view airline flight information on wp7.19:03
jonwilI am currently investigating making some improvements to the FindMine game, if I can figure out how to get libillumination0-dev installed into my Scratchbox install19:03
plautiuscome to ##antiwarradio19:03
plautiusshow is on now
DocScrutinizerjonwil: for winP7? ;-P19:03
jonwilFor maemo :P19:04
DocScrutinizerplautius: now it's time to earn some bonus points before you got trolling/off-topic next time :-)19:05
lolcatDocScrutinizer: He did that in several channels19:05
plautiusthere is no fixing the plautius19:05
DocScrutinizeryou bet there is19:06
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jonwilok, good, FindMine is GPL19:06
jonwilso it should be no problems to make the changes I want to make19:06
lolcatDocScrutinizer: Lets nuture (fix) plautius19:06
plautiushey lolcat19:06
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plautiusyou keep that sphincter sewn shut19:06
Choomgoogle translate text:     Elopin that N9 is more Qt programming environment than MeeGo operating system utilizing the device. Qt programming environment allows applications to be programmed to operate three of Nokia's operating system, but not a Windows phone.19:06
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lolcatNokia has three oses?19:07
nid0well, if that is a true theyre obviously just trying to spin it the other way round to android19:07
DocScrutinizernah, but Qt runs on windows desktop afaik19:08
nid0android is "our java overlay is linux really!!" and nokia's "our linux underlying os is a qt experience!"19:08
Choomlolcat: yes: symbian, maemo, and harmattan19:08
lolcatMeego is intel's19:08
Choomthose are the current target platforms in the Qt SDK19:08
lolcatAlso Maemo isn't an os, it is an distro19:08
Choomwhich is an OS19:09
lolcatNokia doesn't own Linux (wich is an OS)19:09
Choomno, linux is just a kernel19:09
lolcatGNU/linux then19:09
DocScrutinizerpleeease gentelmen19:09
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DocScrutinizerwhen trolop says "Qt runs on 3 OS" he probably meant symbian, linux, and windows desktop19:10
jonwilok, even better, the libillumination-dev package I need is in extras which means getting it for Scratchbox should be easy enough :)19:10
ChoomDocScrutinizer: no, he has claimed that Qt will not be available on wp719:11
Choomthere was an engadget article about it19:11
DocScrutinizerhe said exactly same in same sentence, above19:12
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lolcatSo we can write a something (app/program/application/whatever floats your boat) in qt and have it multi platform?19:12
DocScrutinizer>>but not a Windows phone.<<19:12
lolcatSymbian, Maemo, Meego and Android?19:12
nid0isnt it more likely by the 3 os's he means s40, symbian, and maego?19:12
jonwilIf I had a dollar for everything posted on Engadget that later turned out not to be true...19:13
DocScrutinizermaemo and meego are the same OS basically19:13
lolcatnid0: Maego? A mix of maemo/meego?19:13
DocScrutinizermaybe not for trollop19:13
nid0lolcat: ie both being counted as one, as essentially they are19:13
DocScrutinizerbut then he got his count incorrect19:13
lolcatDocScrutinizer: Maemo has apt-get! I like apt-get19:13
DocScrutinizerlolcat: and I like russian vodka19:13
DocScrutinizerChoom: SO WHAT?19:14
DocScrutinizereven the URL says exactly what trollop said up there ^^^^19:14
ChoomDocScrutinizer: the UI frameworks are quite different, and they are presented as distinct target systems on Qt Creator19:14
lolcatDocScrutinizer: Can I get the N9, take its stuff out, stick it into the n900 case, replace the screen with the N9 screen, and then make meego maemo + meego updates?19:14
Choomso I Would Guess that nokia considers hem different OSes (and so would I, considering that core frameworks change)19:15
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DocScrutinizerChoom: you're boring me as you don't listen19:15
ChoomI'm sleepy19:15
lolcatI want N9 hardware into my N900!19:16
DocScrutinizerQt also is available on ubuntu, on debian, on fedorea...19:16
Choomreading back :P19:16
DocScrutinizerso how would trollop count exactly THREE os?19:16
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Choomsure, but none of those are Nokia OSes19:16
DocScrutinizerand once again, I said "afaik windows DESKTOP runs Qt"19:16
nid0I dont get the problem. s40, symbian, and meego.19:17
Choomand I think we're nitpicking here19:17
Choomso I won't continue down this road19:17
nid0maemo is either not counted or included under the meego count, because they dont develop it any more and havent done for quite a while19:17
jonwilhmm, someone suggested earlier that I ask on the osmocombb project channels about cell broadcast stuff but I dont know which channel would be most appropriate19:17
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DocScrutinizerhonestly, I'm either geting a heart attack, or fall asleep, when we continue discussing trollop shit on that level19:18
DocScrutinizerhe trolls this chan even though he isn't here at all19:19
lolcatnid0: s40 is symbian19:19
lolcatSure he isn't here?19:19
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DocScrutinizernot really19:20
ShadowJKs40 is not symbian19:20
ShadowJKs60 is symbian19:20
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lolcatElop, you dirty fuck, reveal yourself! You broke my N9! Fuck you!19:20
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DocScrutinizer[Whois] elop ist (elop)19:21
ShadowJKlolcat, really, s40 isn't symbian19:21
ShadowJKs30 and s40 are "Nokia OS"19:22
ShadowJKj2me devel api for third party apps19:22
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lolcatI'll never have on of those19:23
lolcatMaybe a cheap s40 for backup19:24
ShadowJKthey're what the common man refers to as "dumbphone" and nokia calls featurephone19:24
Sicelos30 doesnt 'exist' anymore, does it?19:24
DocScrutinizerdon't you think it's *way* more interesting and exciting to spot references to new unseen devices in meego repository, rather than decrypting trollop's way to count platforms that run Qt?19:24
Siceloiirc it was only on 3510i19:25
ShadowJKWhat does 1100 and 1600 run?19:25
nid0you can still get nokia 1100's19:25
Sicelothose don't do j2me :/19:27
Sicelomaybe i'm OT19:27
ShadowJKyeah they dont19:28
lolcatSicelo: Nobody was OT since febuary last year here19:28
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jonwilI wish I had some more docs on how Cell Broadcast works or better yet some example packets beyond just the one I can get the local tower to send me19:29
Sicelowhat happened February? :p19:29
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nid0meego got announced.19:29
nid0and maemo was eol'd19:29
SpeedEviljonwil: drive around a bit?19:30
SpeedEviljonwil: Or publish something that can snarf them if we install it19:30
jonwilwell I posted on the mailing list with all the notes and stuff I had19:31
jonwilincluding the test dumper I am using19:31
jonwiland the bytes I had to change in libsms to get things to work19:31
SpeedEvilI mwan in extras-devel or something19:31
DocScrutinizerjonwil: \o/19:32
jonwil\o/ what?19:32
DocScrutinizerjonwil: I suggested that one byte, some time ago. You recall that? :-)19:33
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jonwilThis is a change of 3 bytes19:33
DocScrutinizerjonwil: nice you succeeded to receive a smscb19:33
jonwilbased on what I see in the new Harmattan x86 libsms package19:33
DocScrutinizerok, one opcode19:33
DocScrutinizerjonwil: *that* is clearly a patch tha needs to go to cssu19:34
jonwilnope, its 2 opcodes actually19:34
jonwil2 instructions :)19:35
jonwilis there an IRC channel or discussion forum/list for CSSU where the dev guys hang out?19:35
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jonwilI just thought of another option, perhaps it would be possible to completly duplicate sms_gsm_cb_routing_ntf and then use LD_PRELOAD to make the dynamic linker use my new copy instead of the original. Although I have no idea how that works on ARM19:37
lardmanjonwil: yep, #maemo-ssu19:37
jonwilor with ARM position-independent-code though19:37
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jonwilthe advantage of LD_PRELOAD is that it doesn't require redistributing a nokia binary file19:39
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lardmanjonwil: just read your post to the list, nice bit of binary patching work there :)19:40
jonwilbelieve it or not, I find reverse engineering fun :)19:41
nicofsIs there a way to create one's own easy debian image?19:41
jonwiland have been doing it for years19:41
plautius_wow! very insteresting documents released from the arizona police department by lulzsec!19:41
jonwilmostly on PC games of all sorts19:41
plautius_DocScrutinizer: have you seen them yet?19:42
lardmanjonwil: same here :)19:42
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* lardman heads for home, catch you guys over the weekend hopefully19:45
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jonwilok, a look at sms_gsm_cb_routing_ntf suggests that cloning it shouldn't be hard19:46
DocScrutinizerjonwil: ld_preload would work for sure, but on cssu I guess we could even patch the original file19:48
jonwilLD_PRELOAD is cleaner though and wont require people to install CSSU just for CBSMS19:48
DocScrutinizerstill needs cssu, as you need to patch the location where you have to insert LD_PRELOAD19:49
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DocScrutinizerbut I agree a clone is for sure the nicer method19:49
DocScrutinizerwell, if we create a package that brute-force patches existing files, the we could get away with a package in extras repo ;-)19:51
jonwila simple binary patch does seem the easiest, will discuss it in #maemo-ssu then19:53
jonwilwho are the people that do the decision making regarding the CSSU? (if there are such people)19:53
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nicofsIs there a way to create one's own easy debian image? Or some sort of how-to for creating a similar chroot environment? Any help is appreciated...19:54
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jonwilthe other problem I just realized with a clone of that function is that it calls msgbuf_get_ptr, sb_length_get and sb_id_get from (functions I dont really know how to properly use)19:55
scoobertronis anyone using mediabox?  am I right in thinking it should work as a dlna control point?19:56
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draglyAnyone where who's got their hands on a N950?21:09
draglyI'm already having trouble flashing mine :(21:10
prontoif i ever own a bunch of land(like massive mounts of acres)  im so going to put shit like this on it in random places, hopefully some of it is wooded area
prontothe n950 is out?21:10
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draglykinda. It's not for sale, but Nokia has started shipping it to developers.21:11
ShadowJKdragly, where do you live?21:11
draglyWorked very fine until I decided to "Clear device". Now it won't even boot.21:12
ShadowJKAh ok21:12
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* ShadowJK calls his SWAT team: "The device is in Norway, I repeat, the device is in Norway."21:12
draglyHave you got any experience with the N900 flasher. Seems they are similar, so maybe I can issue some command line options that would help?21:14
ShadowJKWell with N900 the main challenge is getting the N900 into a state where it will accept flashing21:14
Corsacdragly: and you can't reflash it again?21:14
CorsacI mean, what does it say when you try?21:14
ShadowJKThe easiest way is to remove the battery, connect the USB cable, start flasher, insert battery21:14
draglyI'm doing a reflash now. It's "erasing" as we speak.21:15
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draglyHm... Guess I'll have to dig out some special screw drivers to lift the battery out in that case.21:15
draglyThe flash log is here, if it is of any help:
draglySeems to be some kind of strange security error. (Pentagon device?)21:16
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ShadowJKLooks like it found the device ok21:17
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draglyYes. And it erases everything with success too apparently.21:18
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draglyBut as soon as it's supposed to load the images, it just fails with the errors you see in the log.21:18
draglyThe erase takes about 15 minutes, so it's an awful lot of time to wait just to see it fail every time :(21:18
Corsachmhm, thanks, ape-algo is indeed a tiny flashing environment then21:19
draglyseems so. The transfer before the erase is extremely quick.21:20
Corsacbb5_rdc_cert_read() are the function calls to the TEE which checks if you have a r&d cert on the device (which you have not, but I think it's normal)21:20
Corsacbut the real problem seems to be that your apparently try to “downgrade” the firmware21:21
draglyah, so that shouldn't be the problem?21:21
Corsacwhich is not allowed21:21
draglyI see. Why would they publish an older firmware version than they ship?21:21
Corsacno idea :/21:21
FIQ|n900quick question: has anyone got J2ME to run on N900? a friend ask21:21
ruskiethere is some emulator21:22
CorsacVersion of 'sw-release': DFL61_HARMATTAN_10.2011.24-7_PR_RM68021:22
CorsacImage SW version DFL61_HARMATTAN_1.2011.22-6_PR_RM68021:22
wmaronefour twitter clients, none work21:22
FIQ|n900i know J2SE works with iced tea21:22
* wmarone casts voodoo upon them21:22
FIQ|n900but J2ME?21:22
draglyAh, thanks for pointing that out Corsac.21:23
ruskieFIQ|n900, as said there is something about j2me in the repos21:23
ruskieemolator iirc or something21:23
ruskieerm emulator21:23
FIQ|n900let's check it out21:23
draglyI guess they might have done a mistake by uploading an old version or something then.21:23
draglyWhy would it be risky to downgrade by the way? Isn't that quite normal?21:23
Corsacon a developer device it might be ok21:24
Corsacbut downgrading on a production phone can be problematic21:24
* dragly hoping for a command line option that says "--force-downgrade"21:24
Corsacif you find a flaw in a firmware version, then you hope people upgrade and you try to prevent reverting to the bad version21:24
Corsacso noone can exploit you by reverting to the vulnerable version21:25
draglyThat makes sense.21:25
draglyHmm... How can I obtain the new version then. Better go for a Google-hunt. I guess there are noone at work at Nokia until monday again.21:25
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draglyExcept it the U.S. maybe? But would anyone there have the newest firmware laying around on their desk?21:26
Oppo|n900is there a java SE in the repositories for maemo?21:27
draglyDamn... I was so happy that the device came today. Guess I'll have to be patient for a couple more days.21:27
Oppo|n900if so, what is it called?21:28
draglyWhere should I file a bug for this? I guess isn't the right place anymore?21:28
Sicelo0_0.. coincidence? ;/21:28
draglyI'll try
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Corsacdragly: when you got your n950 didn't you get an url or something to report issue?21:30
Corsacin the package itself or in the mail you might have received21:31
FIQ|n900N950 already being produced?21:31
draglyNope. Just the page21:31
draglyFIQ|n900: It's already being shipped :)21:31
draglyBut only to developers21:31
Corsacreporting on might not really be a good idea either21:31
FIQ|n900yeah, i know21:31
draglySeems has a Harmattan category. I'll try my luck there.21:32
draglyAfter all, I downloaded the flasher from as well.21:32
FIQ|n900too bad there's only one device for us non-devs on meego in sight, and that one doesn't have a keyboard...21:32
FIQ|n900I guess I'll stick to N900 a bit more21:32
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FIQ|n900as it still works fine21:32
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FIQ|n900keyboard as in, a hardware one21:33
draglyStrange thing that the date for the firmware version on my device is 24th of July by the way... :s21:33
SiceloOppo|n900: and
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* FIQ|n900 wants a phone that works the way his computer do, more or less, i.e. real linux experience. N900 is the *only* options on the market currently with that21:35
Corsacdragly: it's not july 24th21:36
Corsacdragly: if the versionning scheme didn't change it's more like the 7th revision on week 2421:36
Corsacso last week21:36
draglyoh, I see that it would make no sense now :-p21:37
draglythat would make the day a major version and the month a minor21:37
Corsac(well, week number is not really a good idea since not everyone has the same definition but eh :)21:37
CorsacI don't think there's day/month21:37
draglyhehe. Okay, but then I'm not so scared. I guess they have a newer version internally.21:37
Corsacyeah but not providing the installed version is a bad idea21:38
Corsacas you already found out :)21:38
draglyYep. Which leaves me with a "bricked" device over the weekend.21:38
Corsacbut at least you have a device21:38
Corsacit'd be worth trying to fool the flasher though21:39
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draglyYeah, but how.21:39
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gri_dragly: Could you take a photo with the n950 and n900 side by side (even though it does not work)? :) I'm interested in the thickness-factor21:39
draglyMaybe I could open the bin in some Hex editing program and change the version number? :p21:40
draglygri_: Of course. Hang on a minute ;)21:40
Corsacdragly: nah you don't need that21:40
Corsacwell, I don't think so21:40
Corsacwait a sec21:40
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draglyCorsac: Okay :) Thanks21:42
Corsachmhm, well, yeah, maybe you have to21:42
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draglyWould that be dangerous in any way?21:43
draglyCould it get any worse? :p21:43
Corsacno idea :)21:43
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draglyDon't know if I dare trying. But I'll try to open the bin file at least :p21:44
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Corsacno exactly sure how they are packed, you can extract them but I don't from where exactly the version number is checked21:45
Corsacand if there's a signature somewhere21:45
Corsac(I'd assume so)21:45
FIQ|n900"ups, i bricked the developer phone a few hours after getting it"21:45
draglyFIQ|n900: That's me! :p21:45
* FIQ|n900 wants a N950 too21:46
Corsacfun, the doesn't have the --moslo arg21:46
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draglyCorsac: What is the --moslo arg?21:46
Corsacno idea21:46
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piggzthe problem with tmo is that it stops be getting any work done!21:48
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ShadowJKfennec on N900/MeegoCE seems much faster than on N900/Maemo5...21:49
piggzShadowJK: yes, i got that impression too21:50
Corsachmhm, iirc fiasco-gen has a way to sign images so you can unpack images but I'm not sure you could repack it correctly21:50
Corsacbut it might be possible to extract the various images and flash them one by one, but as we don't really know how flasher works, it might be a bad idea21:51
draglyCorsac: I guess you're right. I really miss the --force option in the flasher :(21:52
draglyCan't seem to find anything similar yet.21:52
FIQ|n900Hm, would it be possible to get uboot running w/o running stock kernel but powerkernel?21:52
Corsacnot sure it's in the flasher21:52
Corsacit's more in the n950 itself21:53
Corsacwell, in the ape-algo image21:53
FIQ|n900as uboot in the repositories seems to conflict with powerkernel21:53
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draglyFIQ|n900: I think I read about something like a uboot-power, but I won't say that for sure.21:55
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FIQ|n900du kunde ha valt en bättre font ;)21:55
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FIQ|n900er, wrong channel..21:55
FIQ|n900dragly, i'll look21:55
draglyCorsac: So no renaming would do then :(21:55
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draglyFIQ|n900: Jeg synes fonten er fin jeg :)21:55
FIQ|n900indeed uboot-power seems to be there21:56
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draglygri_: Transfering image to PC now ;)21:59
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draglygri_: Here is the N900 and the N950 lined up next to eachother:
gri_dragly: Thank you! Looks as thick as an Iphone but with keyboard :)22:05
SpeedEvildragly: Ok to use that in wiki?22:05
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Corsachmmh yeah, ape-algo is a linux kernel + a tiny script to run softupd22:06
draglySpeedEvil: To use the web browser in wiki?22:06
SpeedEvildragly: pic22:06
draglyOh, of course. CC-BY-SA ;)22:07
SpeedEvilTrying to fix up the wiki a bit.22:07
draglySpeedEvil: Cool :)22:08
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draglyUhm... Was it stupid of me to post the full log online? I just saw that there is a Device Identifier in there :o22:11
Corsacyeah, might not have been the wisest thing22:11
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draglyBut how can that possibly be misused?22:12
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Corsacno idea but I usually prefer to be safe than sorry :)22:13
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Shapeshifterdragly: is it good?22:15
draglyI agree :)22:15
draglyShapeshifter: Is what good? The N950?22:16
draglyI managed to temporarily brick it now, but until I did that it was a pleasure to use :)22:16
Shapeshifterdragly: how linuxy is it? I mean, does it feel like a proper linux or is it slightly out of shape like on the n900?22:17
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draglyI'm not really sure what you mean by that. It has a terminal like the N900, but the interface is of course like a smartphone.22:18
draglyIt is pretty far from any desktop distro.22:18
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gri_dragly: Did they send you one with norwegian keyboard layout? :D22:20
Shapeshifterdragly: does it ship with busybox? does it have man pages?22:20
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draglygri_: Nope. It's the english keyboard version. Didn't notice that before just now :p22:22
draglyShapeshifter: That I haven't had the chance to check. It's said that the N9 will have BusyBox, so I guess the N950 does too, but man pages I don't know if are installed.22:22
Shapeshifterdragly: mh, I'd also like to know about the partitioning, being one of the utterly broken things on the n900.22:23
Shapeshifterbut oh well. we'll never see it in the stores anyway, so22:23
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gri_RX71-47-2_QEMU_MR0:~# man22:25
gri_-sh: man: not found22:25
Shapeshifterwell I admit it makes sense to not include man pages on a device with limited space. a premade package would be nice though22:26
SiceloShapeshifter: iirc somewhere nokia mentioned that partitioning follows the FHS22:26
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, up for fixing the accelerometer driver? :)23:13
DocScrutinizerlol, ask me next week, I feel pissed by the N950 fighting and bitching23:14
merlin1991MohammadAG: is the lockscreen still an overlay?23:14
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draglyDocScrutinizer: Do you have an N950?23:14
DocScrutinizernope, and I'll not get any23:15
draglyheh, ok :)23:15
DocScrutinizernot really sad about it, I'm happy with my N900. But I regret the hours invested for applying23:16
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draglyOh, so that's what you meant about fighting. I was thinking you was fighting with the device or something.23:17
DocScrutinizeralmost a whole day, counting in the the really unpleasant experience at
MohammadAGmerlin1991, you shouldn't know that23:17
merlin1991But is it?23:18
draglyYou ended up not applying? Or you didn't have your application approved?23:18
DocScrutinizerI ended up getting advised to apply better23:18
draglyAh, I see :(23:19
MohammadAGI applied, but for some reason I doubt I'm getting a device23:20
gri_DocScrutinizer: You could also apply again at
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DocScrutinizerI did, after wasting a day with
DocScrutinizerand now learnt that's a beauty competition of project pages23:21
DocScrutinizermeh, nevermind. Konttori asked me to apply, it's up to him if I receive a device or not. I don't really care23:22
DocScrutinizerit's not like my daily presence here could get any increase, I'm for sure not designing a project page to make my later wasting time with helping out happen23:24
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DocScrutinizerthat'S why I suggested MohammadAG to ask next week23:24
MohammadAGI see23:25
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MohammadAGdoes anyone know how to read notifications?23:33
lcukwith your eyes.23:33
lcukwhen they popup, look in their direction :P23:33
hiemanshuor record the screen at all times with another camera, so it can pause and read it if you are really slow23:35
lcukhiemanshu, would you need to track the notifications on the second cameras' screen also?23:36
wmaronebuncha comedians in here ;)23:36
hiemanshulcuk: right so setup a circular recursive recording which ends up at the N900s camera23:37
lcukwith magnets?23:38
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hiemanshunope, tripods23:39
hiemanshuthey are cheap23:39
lcukMohammadAG, I hear you can use dbus23:40
lcukis the other option23:40
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lcukwmarone, I was being technically correct23:43
GeneralAntillesThe best kind of correct.23:45
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