IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2011-06-13

MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, sorry, no other sane systems00:00
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DocScrutinizerawesome forum software replacing *each* "ass" by ***  X-P
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timelesshello world00:12
lcukDocScrutinizer, that is cl***ic00:12
* timeless is getting to love BlackBerry00:12
lcukor in the terms of other software: that is clbuttic00:12
lcuktimeless, do you have a raised eyebrow?00:12
DocScrutinizerlcuk: makes for some h***le when reading00:13
timelessUnlike my n8, there's a Google Mobile App for BlackBerry (there used to be one for Symbian, but I think Google dropped it)00:13
timelesslcuk: why do you ask?00:13
ShadowJKthere used to be one for j2me too00:13
lcukdid you not expect a polished experience?00:13
timelesslcuk: oh00:14
timelessi had no expectations to be honest00:14
timelessi mean, i had a basic hope "it has to be better than Symbian"00:14
lcukgood approach00:14
* timeless didn't pay *any* attn to rim news until after joining00:14
timelessmost things are much better here00:15
timelessunfortunately i've found a couple of apps which don't seem quite interested in dying and i'm not quite sure yet how to kill them00:15
timelessbut i'm sure i'll figure it out00:16
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timelessoh, unlike my n8, the BlackBerry Torch has a green button that one can use for search in google apps...00:18
* timeless chuckles @nokia's lack of a green button and how that totally ruined google's clever ui for voice search)00:19
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keriogreen button?00:23
keriobuttons are so yesterday00:23
SpeedEvilYeah - this is the interface of the future. He's writing an email.
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DocScrutinizerLOL, maybe for mobile this interface is better?
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timelessanyone know why i'm getting a 1% fee while trying to send money from paypal[finland] to paypal[USA/Canada]?00:31
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: the one you suggested is a bit hard to use e.g. in subway ;-)00:31
timelesskerio: i'll have to find a picture of the ui at some point, or take a photo, i might actually have a photo of it in my n8 gallery on facebook00:32
timelessif you haven't looked at the gallery, please do :)00:32
DocScrutinizertimeless: currency conversion?00:32
timelessdoc: nope, i have currency in EUR and USD and my recipient accounts can all take USD and i set up the CA one to take EUR00:32
timelesspaypal points me to
timelessbut there's no sign of a 1% fee anywhere in it00:33
DocScrutinizerso put it away with tag "paypal sucks"00:33
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Even ideal for multitouch00:33
DocScrutinizertimeless: you know paypal can freeze your account any time, as long as they like, and reject all your complaints with "please sort it out with your neighbour"00:35
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timelessi know00:35
timelessso far i haven't had a problem w/ it00:35
timelessand i've managed >40k USD w/ it00:35
timeless(downpayment on my Finnish apartment)00:35
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DocScrutinizerwell, you're lucky00:37
DocScrutinizercan happen to everyone00:37
DocScrutinizerand there's basically nuttin you can do against it00:37
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DocScrutinizerthey can steal your money, ruin your business, and laugh at your face while doing that - any time they like00:38
timelessI'm not a business00:38
timelessDoing business using PayPal would be a different story00:38
DocScrutinizerthe landlord of your appartment in Finland obviously been though00:38
timelessI own the property, surely that makes me my own landlord?00:39
timelessBut I'd rather be screwed by PayPal than each of my Banks in each of the countries in which I've resided00:39
DocScrutinizerok, whatever00:39
timelessAt least PayPal speaks English00:39
timelessand is mostly honest and has reasonable documentation00:39
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timelesseven its horror stories are public!00:40
timelessthe same can not be said for my Finnish banks00:40
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timelesswhich have been incredibly dishonest and whose dirty laundry is either private or enciphered in an indecipherable language for which no particularly good translation tools exist :)00:40
DocScrutinizerI'd not let my friggin paypal account grow to any 4 digit amount anyway00:41
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timelessthe interest rate on a US based PayPal account (when established as a Money Market) was considerably better than anything I could get at a bank00:43
DocScrutinizerpaypal is too big, with too few real human beings involved into the process, and not bound to any jurisdiction that would help me out when the IT goes mad00:43
timelessand its fee structure was much much much better, as was my abilitity to use it as a liquid account.00:43
timelessHeck, I could have gotten a credit card for it to enable me to draw its funds directly.00:43
DocScrutinizerthat's all fine as long as it works. If something fails you're screwed00:44
* timeless shrugs00:45
timelessplacing all your eggs in one basket is never a good idea00:45
DocScrutinizertry to get back your 1%00:45
timelessmy eggs are spread across a number of baskets00:45
DocScrutinizertry to get an explanation about it00:45
timelessyeah, i just set a "message" asking about it00:45
DocScrutinizeryou'll get text templates forever00:45
DocScrutinizer"please read"00:46
timelesswe'll see00:46
* timeless sighs00:46
timelessit turns out i was trying to confirm the wrong bank account :o00:46
timelessin other news00:46
MohammadAGKDE isn't as bad as I thought it'd be00:49
timelessMohammadAG: when was the last time you used it, what did you expect, why are you trying it, and how's it doing?00:50
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MohammadAGlast time I used it, umm, not sure, kubuntu 9.10 or 8.10 I'd say00:50
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MohammadAGI expected a slow UI since I thought it was bloated00:50
MohammadAGI'm trying cause Unity isn't good as a desktop, at least for something that's not a netbook00:51
ShadowJKlast major slowdown was KDE4, after that computers have gotten faster00:51
MohammadAGit's going to stay as my default desktop manager for quite a while00:51
timelessShadowJK: heh00:55
MohammadAGthis was the last one I tried
MohammadAGso yeah, I guess it was KDE 400:56
MohammadAGI actually tried openSUSE as a kid and didn't know KDE/Gnome stuff, I remember I liked it00:56
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Choomyou must be pretty young00:57
DocScrutinizerKDE4 been a rather nasty complete nuke of old KDE, then rebuild everything, which hasn't been done on same level of professionally like KDE1..300:57
Choomlast time I tried KDE was in 1999, when dragging windows around corrupted parts of the wallpaper00:58
DocScrutinizerKDE4 still sucks for me, compared to KDE300:59
ShadowJKChoom, that sounds like KDE4.0 actually..00:59
DocScrutinizerkde4.5foo actually00:59
fusi[n901]whats the keyb shortcut to detach from a screen again?00:59
ShadowJKAlso, scrolling in the konsole (terminal application) corrupted glyps all over the screen :-)00:59
DocScrutinizererr, 4.3.500:59
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DocScrutinizerooh, wasn't for me01:00
SpeedEvilfusi[n901]: ctrl-a d01:00
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: 1999 sounds like KDE1.0 beta sth01:01
DocScrutinizeror like KDE4 yeah01:01
ShadowJKcorruption when moving windows sounds like KDE401:01
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fusi[n901]i guessed it but thankyou :)01:02
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DocScrutinizerKDE4.3 still occasionally corrupting my taskbar here, when switching windows01:02
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DocScrutinizer~lart KDE401:03
* infobot judo chops KDE401:03
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hiemanshuKDE 4.3?01:03
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: get the latest :P01:03
DocScrutinizerplasma, phonon, a pile of other useless crap01:03
hiemanshuwell atleast 4.501:03
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hiemanshuurgh, stupid mouse01:04
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DocScrutinizerfunny enough I osted a shortstory ranting fairy tale about KDE, on another freenode chan just some 2h ago. Alas in German01:07
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: I'd have preferred to stay with KDE3 until they reach some state of maturity with that friggin kde4 effort01:08
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: <nod>01:08
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: KDE 4.6 is pretty mature01:08
hiemanshu*much* *much* better than 4.301:08
GAN900Ubuntu is back to not resuming01:09
GAN900Kill me.01:09
* hiemanshu puts a generade in GAN900's mouth, and hides behind a cover01:09
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: in quite some aspects this whole kde4 story reminds me on maemo->meego01:11
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: same with GNOME 2.32 to 301:11
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GeneralAntillesDidn't gerbick already leave once?01:16
* DocScrutinizer honestly considers switching to some LTS distro, SLES or whatever01:20
DocScrutinizerI don't need compiz, you know01:20
DocScrutinizerI want my uptime exceed one year01:21
DocScrutinizershit has to work, not to deliver eyecandy01:21
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: CentOS 501:22
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: KDE 3.5.401:22
DocScrutinizerthere's been a time ~2years ago where I was able to switch off the touchpad of this friggin laptop by clicking on a script icon I made. 3 years ago synaptics applet worked and disabled touchpad automatically when starting typing. Now it's fsckdup01:24
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: We intend to support CentOS 5 until Mar 31st, 201401:24
hiemanshuso another few years01:24
DocScrutinizersounds like I'd love it then01:25
DocScrutinizeralas it means a complete "restart" on all my desktop environment01:27
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: and there are qt 4.6/7 packages too (named differently so they dont interfere with default ones)01:27
DocScrutinizersth I tried to avoid as much as possible, which gave me the uncomfortable situation I'm in now01:27
DocScrutinizerfigure: there are custom kbd-shortcuts I defined on KDE2 when it been fresh01:28
DocScrutinizerI'm still using those01:28
DocScrutinizerit's not the 30min to install a fresh OS, it's the weeks to do all those little tweaks to your environment that drives me mad01:30
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DocScrutinizerI should've changed to centOS when they forced me to KDE401:30
hiemanshuif you dont distro hop, that really shouldn't be an issue01:30
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DocScrutinizeras KDE4 did a decent job on nuking 80% of those tweaks and hacks01:31
hiemanshuwell I built the packages for Fedora myself, and used KDE 3 for a while01:31
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DocScrutinizerI'm still unsure if khotkeys for example is a legacy from my kde3 install or meanwhile supported on kde4 as well01:33
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FIQSo I downloaded Maemo SDK the other day for compiling things for Maemo. I sometimes compiles things at desktop, and it usually weorks fine. Now, I tried to compile node.js for Maemo, with following error: sb_gcc_wrapper (g++): /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++: No such file or directory02:01
FIQAm I doing something wrong?02:01
ShadowJKyou don't usually compile .js02:02
FIQIt happens in the make step of it02:02
FIQnode.js is a framework...02:02
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FIQAlso, the SDK is shipping with some really outdated version of python (2.3.4), how come?02:05
FIQHm, weird02:06
FIQTried to tab into that, and the file for sure exists02:07
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DocScrutinizerI think there's sth weird about trying to compile .js, no matter what it actually is02:09
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FIQDid you check the link?02:09
ShadowJKMaybe he meant that hte software is called "dot js", not that he was trying to compile a file ending with ".js"02:09
FIQOr what i told02:09
FIQAnyway, the file indeed exists so why does make say that it doesn't?02:10
DocScrutinizerwell, obviously in sb_gcc_wrapper there exists a problem accessing the file scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++ in the way it tries to do. So the error msg may be slightly off, that's not unseen02:11
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FIQit seems to be a symlink02:14
FIQto something non-existent02:14
FIQthat could be the problem as well02:14
ShadowJKGenerally I have no clue what's going on when using scratchbox02:14
DocScrutinizer:nod:  a stale symlink probably won't work for any purpose02:15
FIQlet's see02:15
FIQthe symlink point to a relative place that it takes for granted is in the PATH, but isn't02:15
FIQi found a binary file in the same path for where it points to02:15
FIQthat's probably it, but... why does it even do that?02:16
DocScrutinizerwhat got a symlink to deal with $PATH?02:16
FIQlrwxrwxrwx  1 root root 26 Jan 11  2010 /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++ -> arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++02:16
FIQprobably that02:16
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DocScrutinizerresolving a symlink the OS doesn't look for $PATH02:19
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DocScrutinizerif there's no real file at the location the either relative or fqn symlink points to, then there happened sth odd either to the symlink on creation time, or to the dest file after symlink got created02:21
FIQwell, I've never used eihter scratchbox or maemo sdk before, the problem could be at my side02:23
FIQbut well, I followed the instructions per wiki page, so I don't know why it happens..02:23
DocScrutinizerprobably sth during installation went wrong02:23
FIQnow I actually tried running it from command line just to see02:25
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> ll /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++02:25
FIQthen it seems to have worked02:25
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 26 16. Mai 2010  /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++ -> arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++02:25
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FIQso I probably just mis-interpreted the point02:26
FIQSo, it's not the problem, it's just the make that fail for some unknown reason02:27
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> ll /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++02:27
DocScrutinizer-rwxr-xr-x 2 root root 181088 11. Jan 2010  /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++02:27
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FIQindeed it looks the same here02:28
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DocScrutinizerpfrrrt  /scratchbox/compilers/bin/sb_gcc_wrapper is an ELF02:30
DocScrutinizerNFC sorry02:31
DocScrutinizerI guess it's SB's way to tell you "don't try to compile javascript" or whatever ;-)02:32
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DocScrutinizer(no, I didn't check that link)02:32
DocScrutinizerI suggest a test with "hello world"02:32
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DocScrutinizerI vaguely recall somebody trying to build something on buildhost that was like converting python script to c to machine code using something written in python. It failed, and I wasn't amazed it did02:35
DocScrutinizercrosscompiling is a bit special sometimes02:36
FIQit's not JS, it's a JS engine ;_;02:36
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DocScrutinizerwhat's the source language?02:37
DocScrutinizerhmm, should work02:38
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DocScrutinizeras mentioned above, make sure the environment is basically functional, by testing a "hello world" build02:39
DocScrutinizerthen maybe ask for help of somebody feeling "at home" in SB, like MohammadAG ;-D02:40
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FIQtried to compile hello world in C++, that worked02:41
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DocScrutinizertried strace'ing this friggin wrapper?02:49
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DocScrutinizerwait, isn't SB compiler running in a changeroot? so maybe there's really no file like /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++02:51
FIQ|n900well, I've never used SB or maemo SDK before, so... well, I don't know02:52
DocScrutinizerNFC why this wouldn't show up when compiling "hello world"02:52
DocScrutinizeryou "logged in" to SB?02:53
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FIQ|n900I've been logged into it all the time02:53
DocScrutinizersorry, I give up02:54
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: ping02:54
DocScrutinizer(SB noob here too)02:54
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DocScrutinizerI even had to look for my post-it note where I noted how to log in to SB02:56
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DocScrutinizeras you can see from my ls I posted above, it's been >12months since I last touched that beast02:56
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flailingmonkeywhat gets used for meego development, in place of scratchbox?03:01
DocScrutinizerhey flailingmonkey - long time no post from you :-)03:03
merlin1991so FIQ|n900 you did /scractchbox/login before trying the compile?03:03
merlin1991flailingmonkey: meego sdk aka qt-creator03:03
FIQ|n900as it would be compiled to my own system in other cases :p03:03
merlin1991ofc :D03:03
FIQ|n900(if i don't do something very scary)03:04
DocScrutinizerflailingmonkey: I *think* meego is using OBS which is some suse build thing. for buildserver, nfi about local build03:04
merlin1991sb does the scary stuff for you, wich is why it's scray ;)03:04
flailingmonkeyDocScrutinizer: hey, yeah :) school took over03:04
MohammadAGsb > madde03:04
FIQ|n900oh hai MohammadAG03:04
FIQ|n900<FIQ> So I downloaded Maemo SDK the other day for compiling things for Maemo. I sometimes compiles things at desktop, and it usually weorks fine. Now, I tried to compile node.js for Maemo, with following error: sb_gcc_wrapper (g++): /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++: No such file or directory03:05
flailingmonkeyDocScrutinizer: oh right, OBS. I just hope its a major improvement from SB03:05
MohammadAGit's not imo03:05
MohammadAGFIQ|n900, sudo /etc/init.d/scratchbox-core start03:06
FIQ|n900it is started03:06
FIQ|n900i'm logged into scratchbox and all03:06
MohammadAGdoesn't matter, I have to do that even if login works03:06
flailingmonkeyease of development (as in not having to spend hours to get the tools just working at all) is always a huge influencer for attracting devs. too bad it seems to be very difficult to do :p03:07
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: how would you tell you did?03:07
MohammadAGI installed sb when I was a noob03:07
MohammadAGI couldn't install OBS, instructions are a nightmare03:07
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: is there some `mount` or other cmd showing of init.d/sb-core been started?03:07
FIQ|n900uh, wait a minute, i don't even have a scratchbox-core daemon there (or in where my architecture actually places daemons as well)03:08
MohammadAGsbctl or something03:08
MohammadAGon the N900 so not sure what it's called03:08
MohammadAGbut it's on the host system03:08
MohammadAGsbox_ctrl I think03:08
DocScrutinizerit's generally better to diagnose first, rather than to suggest fixes03:09
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FIQ|n900I'm using arch, in which daemons is placed in /etc/rc.d but i don't have any SB core there03:09
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe that's first trail of the bugger ;-)03:10
merlin1991FIQ|n900: only because arch normally places stuff there, are you sure sb installer didn't put it elsewhere? :D03:10
DocScrutinizerI guess SB isn't meant to get installed on arch03:10
MohammadAGnot sure about arch, I used debs03:10
DocScrutinizermerlin1991: indeed03:10
merlin1991afaik SB is for "debian based systems"03:10
FIQ|n900there is SB for arch in repositories03:10
DocScrutinizerI'm the noob here :-P03:11
FIQ|n900but I just used the shellscript to make sure it installed something that worked... but it didn't, i guess03:11
merlin1991sudo /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start03:11
merlin1991according to
Hurrianarch? /etc/rc.d/03:12
FIQ|n900that worked03:12
FIQ|n900Hurrian, yeah, i looked there, no scratchbox_ctrl03:12
FIQ|n900but merlin1991s thing worked03:13
DocScrutinizerless /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl  for LULZ03:13
* merlin1991 would like to, but can't03:13
merlin1991stupid us based supplier for the new motherboard03:13
DocScrutinizerI suggested `mount` for a reason03:14
FIQ|n900hm, nope, still failing03:15
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DocScrutinizerif sb_ctl start been executed, there should be quite a number of unique bindmounts03:15
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DocScrutinizerFIQ|n900: do you see those SB bindmounts in your `mount` output - on *host* PC, not in SB terminal03:17
FIQ|n900nope, it didn't seem to change anything03:18
DocScrutinizerscratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl should do those bindmounts - of course you need to run it outside of SB, and prior to login03:19
DocScrutinizerthe bindmounts can't work from inside SB, they probably also will fail when not run as root03:20
DocScrutinizerthat's why <merlin1991> sudo /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start03:21
FIQ|n900that's what i did, outside scratchbox03:21
merlin1991face it, sb for maemo isn't meant for arch :D03:22
DocScrutinizerand no new mounted "volumes" when you issue a `mount` right after that?03:22
DocScrutinizerno errors thrown?03:23
DocScrutinizerjust nuttin sounds a bit odd03:23
FIQ|n900there are new mountpoints there03:24
FIQ|n900(i runned df -h before and it didn't show anything more than the usual)03:24
DocScrutinizerdf isn't supposed to show bindmounts?03:25
* FIQ|n900 dunno03:25
FIQ|n900But well, they're mounted03:25
DocScrutinizerthat'S why I suggested `mount`03:25
merlin1991df show free disk space03:25
merlin1991bindmounts have no affect on space03:25
FIQ|n900I'm tired (as stated before), i guess03:26
FIQ|n900Anyway, so there are bindmounts03:26
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DocScrutinizerso log in03:26
merlin1991MohammadAG: could you pastebin something like `mount | grep scratchbox` so FIQ can compare?03:27
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FIQ|n900Still, it fails with the compile because of the same as before03:28
merlin1991are you in the x86 or the fremantle target?03:28
merlin1991also did you install the nokia binaries?03:28
FIQ|n900I did03:29
FIQ|n900@ merlin199103:29
FIQ|n900and, i'm in FREMANTLE_ARMEL03:29
* merlin1991 is out of ideas03:30
FIQ|n900why do DocScrutinizer have 2 sets of bindmounts, one for root, one for normal user, and i just one?03:31
FIQ|n900Pretty sure that's irrelevant, just wondering03:31
DocScrutinizerI was just wondering as well03:31
merlin1991I bet because the sb debian installer runs it as a service under root, and on logon runs the script again for the user03:32
DocScrutinizerlooks like some weird bug in `mount`03:32
DocScrutinizerI didn't log in03:32
DocScrutinizersee my pastebin03:32
merlin1991I think you did03:32
merlin1991on logon as in log into user03:33
merlin1991system user, not sb user03:33
FIQ|n900Oh, by the way, why is an outdated version of Python provided in the SDK?03:36
FIQ|n900python 2.3.403:36
FIQ|n900i wonder03:37
DocScrutinizeraaah, SB users root and jr03:38
DocScrutinizerand user maybe as well03:38
FIQ|n900maybe I should try to install the scratch provided in AUR03:38
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infobotFIQ|n900 meant: maybe I should try to install the scratchbox provided in AUR03:38
FIQ|n900and reinstall maemo SDK03:38
FIQ|n900but i'm pretty sure nothing will improve tbh03:38
DocScrutinizerFIQ|n900: I created a user in SB, called jr03:39
DocScrutinizeryou don't need to03:39
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DocScrutinizerFIQ|n900: (python) I think python is the version available when maemo SB been "built" - you could update it from inside SB03:41
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DocScrutinizerFIQ|n900: I meanwhile checked that nodejs thing's page, sounds nice03:46
DocScrutinizerthough I still fail to figure a real usecase for it on N900 ;-)03:47
FIQ|n900it's not the end of the world if i don't manage to get it to compile... but as far as i see, it seems that the wrapper just doesn't work - and that it will give other things problems as well03:51
FIQ|n900but i want it!03:52
flailingmonkeynodejs is nice for doing things through callbacks rather than threads just sitting and waiting around, "evented I/O"03:54
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fusi[n901]i freaking love my n90004:01
user0i need one badly04:01
user0first one got stolen04:02
fusi[n901]theyre really good :p04:02
fusi[n901]oh nhoes04:02
fusi[n901]that sucks dood04:02
fusi[n901]gonna b hard to get onethese day04:03
fusi[n901]i only found mine thru clearance sale on
user0i've found a few used ones04:03
fusi[n901]300 reddies tho04:04
user0all had problems, still searching for one04:04
flailingmonkeyamazon has supply of them04:04
fusi[n901]oh u mean in us04:04
user0at what price ?04:04
fusi[n901]where u at user004:04
fusi[n901]is price a factor04:06
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user0yes ofcourse04:06
fusi[n901]you could always steal one..04:06
user0outside the us, but shipping shouldnt cost much04:06
fusi[n901]try looking on
fusi[n901]they might still have some04:07
fusi[n901]ur in the eu ye so they will prolly ship04:07
fusi[n901]i must go smoke this thing now04:07
fusi[n901]tally bai and gl o/ x04:08
flailingmonkeyit was listed at $400 USD04:10
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DocScrutinizer>>Some of the Nokia applications shipped with the final SDK use a hard coded path for user home directory which presents a problem since the default username on the device differs from the username on the developer’s machine.<< (from )04:12
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* DocScrutinizer just wonders if this might have made some devels @ Nokia start to think about their cncept04:12
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DocScrutinizerhardcoded usernames, omfg04:13
DocScrutinizermaybe we could also get hardcoded allowable serial # of device?04:14
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DocScrutinizerhardcoded IMEI maybe, hardcoded kbd layout - there are lots of nice things you could hardcode04:14
FIQ|n900hardcoded IMEI :D04:17
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DocScrutinizerhey, you made me touch that whole stuff again, just to see how hard it can get to get sth running04:42
DocScrutinizerjust about to download the nokia blobs04:43
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flailingmonkeygood luck to you with that DocScrutinizer :p04:49
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DocScrutinizerwondering what to start to put this Xephyr thing to some life and purpose04:58
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DocScrutinizermeh, this took some time to set up the friggin localizations05:06
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DocScrutinizerYEEEEHAAAAAAA!!!! tracker eating my laptop CPU :-P I FEEL AT HOME X-P05:13
DocScrutinizertrackerd[12713]: GLIB CRITICAL ** Tracker - Could not open directory 'file:///home/jr/MyDocs/.camera': No such file or directory05:14
DocScrutinizerInitializing tracker-extract...05:14
DocScrutinizerdamn, that's indeed amazing, running maemo in Xephyr - should've done that before ;-P05:15
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DocScrutinizerwdgt_va_24h_time X-P05:20
DocScrutinizerfor that I had to go thru 20min of localization installs? :-D05:21
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Hurriandocscrutinizer, using cordia?05:36
DocScrutinizerwhat's cordia?05:36
DocScrutinizerduh, that hildon-on-meego thing?05:36
DocScrutinizernah, running "maemo" in Xephyr/SB on my laptop05:37
DocScrutinizerjust wondering why there's "not enough free memory to install application" xchat, in HAM05:38
DocScrutinizerI guess /opt isn't properly linked05:38
Hurrianall the localization strings were fine when i installed Maemo 5 Scratchbox Target05:38
DocScrutinizeror the x86 pkg of xchat not properly optified, or whatever05:38
Hurriandid you separate usr or home?05:39
Hurrianscratchbox is bitchy, had to redo my system for it05:39
DocScrutinizerswitching system lang to Deutsch gave me all the nice wdgt_foo_bar labels everywhere05:39
DocScrutinizerI didn't separate anything yet, just an af-sb-init start or what it's called05:40
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DocScrutinizerI should try to install CSSU ;-P05:41
DocScrutinizerctl-shift-X doesn't work for xterm05:41
DocScrutinizeras Xephyr grabs ctrl-shift :-P05:42
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DocScrutinizerimpossible to "enter" on xchat in SB06:24
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jr_found out FN+carriage-return-key on laptop allows to enter a "ENTER" on SB06:37
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jr_kinda weird to run maemo-xchat under maemo under qemu under SB under linux on X8606:38
jr_btw, as "we" wondered recently: seems F4 is the magic menu key, alas completely useless for M5 as there's no way whatsoever to move to and click a particular menu entry except for mouse/touchscreen of course again06:41
jr_F9 closes apps06:41
jr_maybe at least that could be kinda useful for kbd06:42
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DocScrutinizertime for 12648430   ☕06:43
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DocScrutinizerI'd say hildon gtk is missing accelerator keys as badly as new Qt does06:45
DocScrutinizerwell, I have to admit I not even tried if maybe it *has* accel keys (the _u_nderlined ones) in menus, just that they aren't shown. might still react on proper key in a menu06:47
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jr_nah, in menu of e.g settings you're stuck when your touchpanel is broken06:50
jr_no select, not even escape06:50
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Termanagood morning08:25
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DocScrutinizeryo Termana08:35
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ShorukenSpeedEvil: YOU WAS BORN.08:44
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Shorukenyou've also a typoe "recsue"08:45
SpeedEvilNo I diddn't.08:46
FIQHuh, I was able to get it to compile manually through supplying the command that make runs to compile a C++ manually08:50
FIQs/it/a file/08:50
infobotFIQ meant: Huh, I was able to get a file to compile manually through supplying the command that make runs to compile a C++ manually08:50
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FIQ|n900hm, oh, it didn't work08:57
FIQ|n900it just didn't error for some reason08:57
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RST38hfMSX works on Android!09:57
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timelessany finns awake?10:29
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mecetimeless, \o10:34
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timelessmece: do you count?10:35
kirmaany experience on warranty repair of broken N900 USB connector lately?10:36
mecetimeless, Well, I was born in Finland, lived 32.5 of my 33 years in Finland, I work in finland, I own two buildings in finland, my two cars are registered in finland, both my parents, grand parents and great grand parents are finns, so yeah. I believe I count.10:37
mecekirma, where do you live?10:37
kirmafor the first time a bartender offered me to recharge my phone directly with microUSB charger on friday. well, that was the last time too, as she attempted to blindly ram the cable in place. after that night, I haven't been able to recharge, and before that I probably had thousand flawless recharge plug/unplug cycles10:38
kirmamece: helsinki capital area10:38
mecekirma, nokia care should take care of that10:38
timelessmece: ok :)10:38
mecetimeless, :)10:38
kirmaI've heard at least somewhere they have been offering E7/N8 as a replacement10:39
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mecekirma, they can just fix the N900. It took 3 hours to get mine fixed at a nok care centre here in Turku10:39
kirmamece: hmmh. sounds surprisingly good10:40
cehtehheh .. e7/n8 as replacement for the n900?10:40
mecekirma, well that was here..10:40
* cehteh boggles10:40
mecekirma, I knew which special magical place to go to :)10:40
* joga_ also finn and awake10:40
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kirmalooking at the service manual I'd consider that they have to have much more replacement parts than just a bit of resoldering if they actually follow the procedures of the service manual10:40
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mecetimeless, so what did you need a finn for?10:40
timelessi got a letter from kela10:41
timelessin finnish10:41
jogauh oh10:41
timelesswith instructions to call their finnish line service10:41
timelessthey didn't offer me the english phone number...10:41
mecetimeless, ow..10:41
timelessthey're ... helpful..10:41
cehtehkirma: resoldering will most often not do that .. usually it comes off with the pads10:41
Hurriankirma, that would be the screws, and bubble matrix10:41
cehtehso they have to swap the mainboard10:41
mececehteh, they soldered mine10:41
cehtehwell sometimes soldering may work of course10:42
jogatimeless: try these
kirmawell, even soldering is fine if it works.10:42
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cehtehwell if the pads are half off then resoldering wont be a permanent fix10:43
kirmathe connector itself doesn't seem to be badly hit on basis of looking it from outside, but sufficiently not to recharge any more :I10:43
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kirmaanyway, I bet these bars kill N900s en masse if they continue that practice10:44
mecekirma, that's exactly what I had. It looke dfine, perhaps a little wiggly, but it didn't charge10:44
kirmawell, I "recharged" the phone at two bars to be exact. first bruuveri, then home (didn't charge any more properly according to logs) and then gallows bird pub. both had recently started offering microusb... "treatment"10:45
kirmaand both handled the phone roughly, and both have quite a bit of n900 owners visiting. better be cautious!10:45
kirmaI mean, relatively popular pubs on the linux + good beer demographic here10:47
flailingmonkeyseems like you need microusb male to microusb female cable :p so they can roughly handle the female end of the cable10:50
flailingmonkeybut it would look very silly10:50
kirmathe supplied nokia adapter cable has been this far a great protection for microusb connector damage... and only now I really learned that.10:53
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ruskiewhy one would let other people plug an unknown charger into their phone I probably will never understand10:56
kirmaI can pretty safely assume that at least the round-plug chargers around here are original nokia chargers10:57
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kirmaworst that can happen is awfully slow charge rate10:57
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ruskiealso do people really need to keep recharging their devices so often???10:58
kirmabecause n900 eats plenty of battery, especially when it's used a lot all the time? :I10:58
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ruskieI guess I just don't get the use it all the time thing...10:59
ruskieI hardly touch it10:59
kirmabeer on one hand, n900 on another, irc+ssh/browser/chat/calling going on for hours, tends to eat battery11:00
ruskieI don't get it... I thought the whole point of going to a pub was to socialise in real life... not chat around/call people...11:01
kirmadoesn't really prevent socializing with folks on the table at the same time11:01
kirmarather, "friends seem to be on bar X, maybe we should head there" or "had to check how this factoid of a beer rant actually is, looked up wikipedia"11:03
mecekirma no shit. Also one has to read things on intertubes to keep fresh topics coming :D11:05
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kirmamece: yep, one has to know hourly status of which parties are trying to form the government now ;)11:09
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Hurrianoh, people still burn through the n900's battery?11:12
Hurrianunder heavy load, i get it to use 1.2%/minute11:13
timeless> Olet voinut saada postitse myös kirjeen, joka ei valitettavasti näy asiointipalvelussa.11:14
cehtehHurrian: yes thats possible11:14
Hurrianand on some days, i expect the thing to burst into flames11:14
Hurrianit just gets really really hot around the antennas11:15
timelessso. um11:15
* timeless curses kela for being *insane*11:15
timelesskela is being stupid11:15
jaskayes.. kela is silly11:15
timelessthey made me waste a secure token11:15
timelesshow do i fill out form y 39 electronically?11:16
jaskai had to fight with kela and various other instances for a few years when i was sick11:16
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jaskait didnt work when you filled it online?11:17
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timelessi can't figure out where to fill it out online11:19
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jaskaare you still logged in?11:21
jaskastupid system wont let me see the actual user pages unless i use up one of my bank codes :)11:22
jaskaahh, there is a test mode11:22
timelessthere is?11:24
timelessyeah i'm still logged in, i think11:24
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jaskalooking around..11:25
timelessi think i didn't need to burn a secure token to do this11:25
timelessi think the y 39 pdf is boobie trapped with a submission procedure11:25
timeless> 5. Pensioners moving abroad permanently11:25
timelessdoes that mean "if you are retired"?11:26
timelessi'm not retired... but some day i hope to be11:26
jaskawhat language is your UI in?11:26
timelessthis form is not properly boobie trapped11:26
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timelessit's just stupid11:26
timelessok, so how the **** does one submit this form to these a** holes?11:27
timelessor should i say monkeys?11:27
jaskais your web ui english or finnish.. the demo only has finnish11:27
timelessweb ui is um11:27
* timeless ponders11:27
timelessthey probably have swedish too11:27
jaska"hakemus ja ilmoitus"11:28
timelessbut yeah, no finnish11:28
timelesserr no engilsh11:28
jaskathat opens: "oikeus suomen sosiaaliturvaan"11:28
timeless"Hakemus tai ilmoitus" ?11:28
timelessok.. now what11:28
jaskado you get a dialogueish page with "keskeyta" "jatka"?11:29
timelessi only clicked on "Hakemus tai ilmoitus"11:29
jaskadoes it open a "submenu" tree under it11:29
timelessdo you want me to click jaska jaska jaska "Oikeus Suomen sosiaaliturvaan"?11:29
timelessyeah i have  ~15 items under it11:29
jaskaok, the bottom one is "oikeus suomen sosiaaliturvaan"11:30
timelessbtw if you see 'jaska', it means i did '<ctrl>-<tab>' and the irc client heard it..11:30
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timelessok, i clicked that11:30
jaskayou get a page with "keskeyta" "jatka"?11:30
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jaskaclick jatka11:31
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jaskai think ill take this to pm.. not wanting to flood here11:32
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scoobertronI have been a dumbass and edited my sudoers file.  Now I can't get root access.  Any idea how to fix it? (without ssh server installed)11:39
DocScrutinizer51tzzz, touchscreen click been dead until I closed mediaplayer11:40
DocScrutinizer51reopened MP and started/stopped playback... click OK11:40
DocScrutinizer51all hail to PA I'd say11:41
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ruskiescoobertron, reinstall the root sh stuff from the app manager?11:47
scoobertronapp manager doesn't work because it uses sudoers to get root access11:50
mgedminwell, can you run anything as root? is /etc/sudoers empty now, or what?11:53
mgedminworst case, reflash the rootfs11:53
mgedminI wonder if there are any known unpatched local root exploits in that kernel version11:53
robbiethe1stYou don't have backupmenu, do you?11:55
cehtehssh installed?11:55
DocScrutinizernonsense, enable R&D mode11:56
* timeless thanks mece and jaska for their help w/ kela11:56
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robbiethe1stR&D mode would work?11:56
DocScrutinizerit's supposed to work, yes11:56
robbiethe1stit doesn't rely on sudoers?11:56
DocScrutinizernot afaik11:57
cehtehwell if sshd is running that might be easier :P11:57
scoobertronmgedmin: No, I added a line without realising it superceded all the lines above it.11:57
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mgedminwhat was the line?11:57
scoobertronmgedmin: iirc user ALL = ALL11:58
scoobertronthis was before I realised I didn't have a password11:58
mgedminyou can create a password11:58
mgedminor maybe not11:58
DocScrutinizeryou ran update-sudoers?11:58
scoobertronno, edited it with visudo11:58
DocScrutinizeryou rebooted?11:59
scoobertronpasswd told me I couldn't change the user password11:59
scoobertronI don't think I rebooted11:59
DocScrutinizerso run update-sudoers now11:59
mgedminI'm pretty sure you need to be root to do that :/12:00
DocScrutinizerbasically you're not supposed to edit etc/sudoers12:00
DocScrutinizermgedmin: I'm pretty sure a boot does as well12:00
mgedminthat would solve everything12:00
mgedmingrep sudo /etc/event.d/* finds nothing12:01
mgedminhow would update-sudoers be run during boot?12:01
scoobertronDocScrutinizer: yeah, I saw the wiki afterwards.  I feel like such a dumbass.  I just thought I would share my embarressment with all the good folks at #maemo before reflashing.12:01
DocScrutinizernevertheless update-sudoers is run at boot time for all I know12:01
scoobertronand update-sudoers would fix it?12:01
DocScrutinizermgedmin: no idea, but I'm sure it's run at boottime, rather sure12:02
DocScrutinizerscoobertron: depends12:02
DocScrutinizercould, without waranty12:02
mgedminupdate-sudoers will regenerate a new /etc/sudoers by concatenating all the files in /etc/sudoers.d/12:02
DocScrutinizerif not, you still can enable R&D mode12:02
mgedminif you haven't modified those, you will get a sudoers file that was exactly as it was before you ran visudo12:02
mgedminI'm pretty sure R&D mode won't help... you run sudo gainroot, and the gainroot script checks for R&D before giving you a shell12:03
DocScrutinizermgedmin: I heard it somehow appends some part of the original sudoers file12:03
mgedminif you can't use sudo, you won't get as far as the script checking for the mode12:03
DocScrutinizeror prepends12:03
scoobertronDocScrutinizer: rebooted but sudo gainroot still asked for a password12:03
robbiethe1stTry R&D mode12:04
mgedminhmm, you could be right12:04
scoobertronok, gonna check the wiki to find out how.  Ill check back later.  Thanks for your help12:04
mgedminthere are a bunch of ### Automatically added by update-sudoers start/end ### lines in /etc/sudoers12:04
mgedmincould be update-sudoers strips everything between them but keeps everything outside12:04
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DocScrutinizermgedmin: yep12:05
DocScrutinizersth like that12:05
DocScrutinizerreal mess12:05
RST38hDear God! Please, find the person responsible for using OpenAL as the audio API in the Android NDK and punish him. With extremeprejudice.12:05
robbiethe1stBut I thought everyone loved OpenAL?12:06
lardmanRST38h: does it mean the driver can be better hidden?12:06
lardmanI'm sure I've read a page somewhere justifying or at least giving some hints as to why these odd components were used12:07
lardmanrild for the modem too iirc12:07
DocScrutinizersure, there's an excuse for every madness in andridiot12:08
DocScrutinizerscoobertron: I guess you're really out of luck for today12:09
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DocScrutinizermaybe update-sudoers fixed HAM, but I doubt it12:09
DocScrutinizersudo is pretty central12:10
scoobertronDocScrutinizer: its my own fault.  and it won't be my first reflash due entirely to my own stupidity.  I guess this is what happens when you put a terminal on a phone12:10
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lardmananyone know of an IRC client that can remember when your highlights occurred and e.g. tell you the times?12:11
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DocScrutinizerscoobertron: you said you got sshd but no pw?12:11
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scoobertronI have ssh client but not server12:12
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DocScrutinizerwell, I'm out of ideas, which OTOH makes me a lil bit happy about the whole issue ;-)12:15
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scoobertronDocScrutinizer: there isn't anything stupid like a secret root password so I could just use su12:16
DocScrutinizerso far I never really thought how to break the system permissions, just added my root password for sudo gainroot and thought "better", but didn't really evaluate security12:17
DocScrutinizerscoobertron: nope12:17
DocScrutinizerexcept R&D mode, but if mgedmin is right it also won't work12:17
mgedminsecret root used to exist in older firmware versions (password: rootme, iirc)12:18
mgedminbut now it's gone12:18
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mgedmin(older, as in the times of  nokia 770s)12:19
DocScrutinizerwhere from came THAT? passwd?12:19
scoobertronDocScrutinizer: yeah, I wondered about r&d being a lost hope.  I might just reflash, its not a huge deal.12:20
DocScrutinizeror did they really hardcode it into some binary?12:20
DocScrutinizerwell, before reflashing, it's a small effort to enable R&D12:21
DocScrutinizerthough mgedmin has sound arguments why it can't work12:22
scoobertronDocScrutinizer: that's true, except I just found out that the flasher doesn't work with 64bit linux, so I gotta go plug it into my server.12:22
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DocScrutinizermgedmin: I can't find a check for R&D in gainroot script, so it has to be hardcoded to sudo, or it lives somewhere else12:25
mgedminMODE=`$CALTOOL --get-rd-mode`12:25
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mgedminif [ x$MODE = xenabled ]12:26
DocScrutinizernot here12:26
mgedminif you've got easyroot installed, it replaces the original gainroot with its own version12:26
mgedminyou can find the original in /usr/sbin/gainroot.old12:26
DocScrutinizerwhat's easyroot doing then12:26
mgedmincat /usr/sbin/gainroot and see for yourself12:27
DocScrutinizerI might have it, but never wrapped my head around it12:27
mgedminbasically it runs /bin/sh12:27
DocScrutinizerdarn, that's what I did12:27
mecepeople with the (tester) tag on maemo, are they the special magical testers whose votes are more valuable?12:27
DocScrutinizerless `which gainroot`12:27
mgedminthe whole magic is in the sudoers file which lets you run /usr/sbin/gainroot with no password12:28
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mgedminthe original gainroot is then additionally protected by the R&D mode check12:28
mgedminthe modified one just gives you a root shell no questions asked12:28
DocScrutinizerstill I wonder what's easyroot12:28
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mgedmingood question12:29
DocScrutinizerso it's rootsh that swapped that file?12:29
mgedminI did a cat $(which gainroot) and saw12:29
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: so it's rootsh that swapped that script?12:29
mgedmin#From Andey Gubarev's easyroot.12:29
DocScrutinizeraaah yes12:29
mgedminperhaps rootsh is based on an earlier package called easyroot?12:29
DocScrutinizergot that too12:29
mgedminapt doesn't know anything about easyroot, but shows I've got rootsh installed12:30
mgedminthanks for reminding about the name, I was scratching my head after apt-cache policy rootme disclaimed any knowledge12:30
infobotmgedmin: de nada12:30
mgedminwhat did I say to trigger infobot?12:31
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DocScrutinizerlook at12:32
DocScrutinizerif [ -x /mnt/initfs/usr/bin/cal-tool ]; then12:32
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DocScrutinizer    CALTOOL="/usr/sbin/chroot /mnt/initfs cal-tool"12:32
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DocScrutinizer100 point for a good explanation if this is a vulnerability or not, and why :-)12:34
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DocScrutinizerbut yeah, if sudo doesn't get to execute the script even, then you won't win a snip there12:36
DocScrutinizerscoobertron: R&D won't work either12:37
DocScrutinizerso it's reflash for you12:40
DocScrutinizerunless you want to go the path of meego-jedi and use rescue-initrd12:40
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DocScrutinizermgedmin: indeed, what did you do to trigger infobot? your "reference" to her other name apt been in your former post12:43
scoobertronnah, I think it is reflash o' clock12:43
DocScrutinizerthanks apt done it, see?12:43
infobotno worries, DocScrutinizer12:43
mgedminthanks blah blah blah apt blah blah?12:43
infobotno worries, mgedmin12:43
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scoobertronI though apt was a #debian bot.  maybe it's lost12:46
DocScrutinizerthanks infobot works too?12:46
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DocScrutinizerhahaha, legacy, ancient legacy12:47
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DocScrutinizer~info sudo12:47
DocScrutinizer~+info sudo12:48
infobotUpdating debian files... please wait.12:48
infobotSince Sun May 29 22:34:31 2011, there have been 36 modifications, 556 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 368 commands.  I have been awake for 14d 11h 14m 8s this session, and currently reference 117826 factoids.  I'm using about 38768 kB of memory. With 1 active fork. Process time user/system 3848.58/103.21 child 0/012:48
DocScrutinizerapt died12:48
DocScrutinizerback again ;-P12:49
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Sicelohow does infobot detect morons?12:49
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DocScrutinizergood question - obviously not at all12:50
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infobotsudo: (Provide limited super user privileges to specific users), section admin, is optional. Version: 1.7.4p6-1 (sid), Packaged size: 393 kB, Installed size: 716 kB12:50
TermanaThat feature had to be disabled. The number was going outside the variables range.12:50
* DocScrutinizer wonders how long that updating debian files takes12:50
DocScrutinizerTermana: lol12:51
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DocScrutinizerso now you learnt why infobot thinks she's apt12:51
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DocScrutinizerthanks apt12:54
infobotno problem, DocScrutinizer12:54
ruskie <-- bye bye... it's been nice knowing you12:55
DocScrutinizerthis time for real?12:55
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ruskiewell apparently they've dropped from the 1st place globaly12:56
ruskiesmartphones that is12:56
DocScrutinizeraaah, got that wrong12:56
DocScrutinizerthought it's the big sellout already12:56
ruskieif this keeps going there won't be much to sell will there?12:57
DocScrutinizeras then I'd say "byebye Elop, take your winP7 and run!"12:57
TermanaTrojan horse12:57
ruskiewhoever thought that sticking Elop in charge was a good idea will probably be getting a huge bonus or something as well12:58
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DocScrutinizeras neither Samsung nor Apple will be interested in Nokia selling windows phones12:58
TermanaIf I read the article right, Samsung is selling more than Apple?12:59
DocScrutinizeriNokia galaxy12:59
jaskaugh, now getting phonesexline sms spam, guess i need to start blacklisting :)12:59
ruskieto bad I'm not really interested in any Apple gear... as for Samsung.. unless they actually come up with a maemo like open device... they're more or less a dead market for me as well12:59
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ruskieTermana, apple is a niche player at best in europe I'd say13:00
TermanaOh, it's just for Europe, not overall?13:01
ruskieit's overall13:01
ruskiethough no clue what metrics they are using13:01
DocScrutinizerI guess the iPHone market is rather small in India and Africa13:02
ruskieodd though that apple got the top smartphone spot in europe13:02
DocScrutinizerfor india it's too expensive, for africa too flimsy13:02
ruskiethough of course... I wonder how big the market share is for all the 'droid manufacturers put togheter in europe13:03
DocScrutinizerwell, I actually don't know anybod< with a droid13:04
ruskieI do... actually quite a few people now13:04
DocScrutinizerall iPhoney here13:04
ruskieeven our business phones the people are buying some droids @work13:05
ruskieI can't type apparently13:05
ruskieone of them actually has a touch symbian device13:05
ruskieit's sad seeing him trying to use it13:05
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ruskieI wonder if cellcos will ever start selling dual-sim kits with one sim call+sms only and the other 3g only and you can use both at the same time...13:09
Hurrianruskie, carriers love charging you13:10
Hurriani'm thinking of buying a dual sim kit for the n900 actually13:10
Hurriansince there's unlimited data for a 3.5G USB stick @ $20USD13:10
ruskieyou misunderstood me... not two separate accounts... a single account but with separate functionality13:11
ruskieso that I can have a cheap call/sms only cell phone with a number and a 3g sim card for whatever portable device I want to use atm using the same account and costs13:11
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Hurrianmy ISP actually gives you free 3.5G internet as an extension of the service at home13:12
ruskiehmm my cellco started to offer iphone 413:12
Hurriani cba to switch phone numbers on my n900 and i already have an unlimited call+text on another carrier13:13
Hurrianso i just stuck it in my iphone 413:13
ruskiefor a 54€/m cost13:13
Hurrianthat's pricy13:14
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ruskiewell I pay 5€/m for the basic service13:14
ruskieno free calls/texts/data13:14
ruskieand then on top of that 12€/m for 2gb of data allowance per month13:14
Hurrian12 euro for 2GB?13:15
Hurriangod damn13:15
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ruskieI could pay 18€/month for 20gb13:15
HurrianUS$20 gets me unlimited calls+text, and +$20 gets me unlimited data13:16
ruskieif I just get a 3g only account I can pay 15€/m for 10gb of data or 24€/month for "unlimited"(drops to 128kbit/s on reaching 20gb)13:16
Hurrianwhere i'm from, everybody loves unlimited. if it's not unlimited, it won't sell13:17
TermanaI'm on 10 GB for $40 AUD13:17
TermanaWhich has just gone up from $60 for 8 GB13:17
Hurrianan isp actually went bankrupt from having the fastest home DSL @ 5Mbps but with a 15GB cap13:17
Termana(down/up whatever, at least it's a little better now)13:17
ruskieTermana, so 30 eur13:17
Hurrianin before someone says i'm from a third world country13:18
Termanaruskie, yeah13:18
TermanaAnd that's basically the CHEAPEST 3G service we have in Australia13:18
TermanaAll the others are charging out their arse13:18
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ruskieI can get 51 min to all other networks, 101 mb data and 101 text for 20€/month13:19
ruskieand can even mix and match stuff13:19
ruskiemaybe I want 201 mins to other networks... etc...13:19
ruskieactually 51min to all even home network13:19
Hurrianpersonally i'd rather have unlimited minutes rather than texts13:19
ruskiethe 101 minute package comes with free calls in home network13:19
ruskieno unlimited options for that here13:20
ruskie1001 is the max for minutes and texts13:20
Hurriani have never, ever texted anyone in the past 5 years13:20
TermanaHurrian, that's cause your from a third world country13:20
ruskieI probably do more texting than calling13:21
Hurriantermana, i only call people!13:21
ruskiebut I don't really use either13:21
meceI want m6 sdk.13:21
Hurrianand personally, i'd rather route all this shit thru sip/voip13:21
ruskieI basically pay 5eur so I don't use it for 99% of the time13:21
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ruskiesheesh... I wish the cellco would actually tell the data division and the calls division and the marketing department that they should agree on some common price points13:22
ruskieon their put togheter a package they are charging 18€/m for 3gb data limit13:23
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ruskiewhile for 18€/m as an added option you can get 20gb/m13:23
Hurrianmece, I want maemo 6 HE for N900.13:24
meceHurrian, that would be nice too, but first I want sdk13:25
bindiup to 15 Mbit/s for 13.49€/mo, no caps13:26
ruskiebindi, well different caps ;)13:26
ruskiespeed cap: 15 Mbit/s13:26
ruskievs size cap: 20gb13:26
ThreeM100Mbit/s for 29 euros :)13:27
ThreeMunlimited traffic for sure13:27
DocScrutinizer100Mbit/s? WTF?!13:28
DocScrutinizerwhat's that? 3G++?13:28
ThreeMupstream is 10mbits13:28
ThreeMfibreoptic :)13:28
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DocScrutinizerwe got DSL here that maxes out at 50Mbit13:28
RST38hA'ok. Tasks left: audio support, file selector, missing buttons support, touch screen13:29
ThreeMvdsl i gues13:29
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ThreeMthey have to give the user more upstream13:30
ThreeMthats more important than downstream for me13:30
DocScrutinizerI'm on a lame 1Mb line here, with an upstream slow as molasses. Actually my 3G is magnitudes faster than that13:30
crashanddieThreeM, what country?13:31
DocScrutinizerliterally magnitudes13:31
ruskiehahahaha just read an article in the local news about how users really don't need a laptop/computer but a tablet or a smartphone only...13:31
DocScrutinizersure, as lusers are lusers13:32
ruskieand apparently business users shouldn't need anything more as well13:32
DocScrutinizerthey don't even know what that thing is, it's just funny collorful13:32
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DocScrutinizerruskie: and authors should engrave their new books into stone?13:33
ruskieand this is written from someone who apparently does usability stuff13:33
DocScrutinizera certified gashead13:33
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DocScrutinizerusability tested for consoles13:34
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DocScrutinizerand toasters13:35
ruskieand apparently the place this guy works in is in the same building I work in13:35
DocScrutinizerheh great, so you can give him a visit13:35
ruskiehe probably does usability stuff for web apps so basicalyl mixing air and putting pwetty things around13:36
DocScrutinizerI can see why you don't need a proper computer for *webapps*13:37
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DocScrutinizerthe question is: who needs webapps?13:38
ruskieapparently according to him... everyone13:38
DocScrutinizerI guess this dude got no secretary13:38
DocScrutinizeror he's an evil anarchist and terrorist13:39
ruskiebut most of the people that are working here couldn't even wipe their arses with a tablet since they actually need performance(they are mostly developers or do heavy computation lifting of one sort or another)13:39
DocScrutinizerso the latter13:39
crashanddieif you do heavy computation and are considering a tablet, you're not a developer.13:39
DocScrutinizerno, you're a mole terrorist13:40
ruskiecrashanddie, I never said I or we were considering a tablet ;)13:40
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ruskieother than to test anything we might develop for them since the CTO seems to have some grand ideas how mobile apps will be I don't know what...13:41
DocScrutinizerthis dude (allegedly usability) is a mole trying to tear down the company13:41
DocScrutinizeryour local Elop ;-P13:41
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, well I said building not company ;)13:42
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ruskiea building can have multiple companies in it...13:42
DocScrutinizerso an ueber-Elop with a master plan for a whole region13:43
DocScrutinizersuggesting nobody needs any IT except a tablet is really tepco13:44
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ruskieowww fun... this gov already managed to shoot out both it's legs and is now trying to shoot out it's knees... one law is for criminalizing downloading of copyrighted works without permission... if you download more than 5000 eur worth of downloads you are facing jail time of up to 3 years... and ...13:47
ruskie... for over 50000 eur jail time of up to 5 years...13:47
Hurrianlol wut13:47
crashanddieits legs, its knees.13:47
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ruskiecrashanddie, sorry about that13:47
ruskieand for the second one... the cops want to extend wiretapping laws to allow them to monitor basically all communications metadata(origin, destination, time, duration etc...) on the same point of tapping where they have a valid wiretap warrant...13:48
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ruskieow... and they just lost 3 referendums on the same day like a week ago...(which was basically the first two shoots)13:49
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griDocScrutinizer: did you get the german localization in scratchbox working?13:49
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RST38hDoc: What? Elop bred and split into two? Who is his clone?13:50
RST38hgri <-- a real aesthete13:50
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griRST38h:  This means no way? :D13:52
ruskieNoteplate, ask if you have anything to ask13:52
thopiekarhi.. I'll get an N900 at the end of the week and I'm now repackaging console apps at sb.. now managed to build streamripper that I uploaded already on diablo and xbindkeys.. I think Macer wanted xbindkeys afaik weeks before.. are there other console apps from ubuntu you want?13:52
ruskieelse just sit back and enjoy the show13:52
DocScrutinizergri: nope13:53
NoteplateI just wanted an idea for my n900 based blog name13:53
DocScrutinizerswitched back to english and all fine13:53
Noteplatehopefully to help out the end users a little bit13:53 maybe ?13:53
Noteplateits going to have app roundups and things like that to hopefully reduce the amount of disgruntled end users13:54
RST38hgri: Means "WHY?"13:55
ruskieNoteplate, so you want to magically change their N900 into fruit-companyphones and robot-namedphones ?13:55
* RST38h wonders what would world need another n900-themed blog for13:56
Noteplateno but maybe offering some simple solutions to common problems would help13:56
crashanddieAnother blog, woop de fucking woop13:57
RST38hNoteplate: like, the solution to searching on TMO and Google?13:57
griRST38h: Just to know if it works for others, I can live with the english one, too13:57
crashanddieWas "Imtoolametofindaname" already taken?13:57
ruskieNoteplate, most disgruntled users tend to be of theopinion of: OMFG this isn't android or iphone you $%^*#%$*@%$*$ liars13:58
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cehtehdead-horses as blog name? :)13:58
ruskieand of course directed at the maemo community... not at nokia...13:58
thopiekarI'm sorry if I'm wrong but is searching a blog name not a little but toooo offtopic?13:59
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ruskieand I think I've noticed a few common ones of the type: how can I run this app that my friend is running on his shiny13:59
crashanddiethopiekar, oh I'm sorry, who made you operator?14:00
RST38hthopiekar: no, just lame.14:00
ruskiehmm maybe someone should make faqtmo.blog14:00
ruskieand just bring all these common questions with answers there14:00
ruskieso people can ignore it there as well and post yet another thread with the same name14:01
Noteplatewell more things like "whats the best way to view facebook" kaverspous touch.facebook ect14:01
Noteplateor ways to watch tv on n90014:01
jogaI'd like a "what's a good mail client"14:01
* joga doesn't really get the hostility towards this blog...14:01
ruskiejoga, good or good enough?14:01
jogaruskie, good enough14:02
ruskiejoga, it's not hostility towards the blog14:02
ruskiejoga, mutt?14:02
RST38hThe favorite of all times is "my battery is dead how do I turn n900 on?"14:02
Noteplateall im asking for is some blog name ideas not a discussion of "i hate end users because ...."14:02
ruskieit's the idea that people will actually find it14:02
jogaruskie, yes, I use mutt over ssh, it's just that not everyone uses their phone via terminal14:02
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ruskiejoga, erm... so? use it localy... setup mailcap to open graphical things graphically14:03
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jogaruskie, ehrm....let's assume a business user for example. I haven't found any mail client that would handle even the basics14:03
ruskiespeaking of which I really ought to build alpine for n900 sometime soon14:03
jogabesides thunderbird in easydebian or such14:03
ruskieclaws-mail ?14:03
griNoteplate: You want to buy a domain?14:03
jacekowskiclaws is even worse than modest14:03
ruskieI'm assuming you are refering to calendaring etc...14:03
ruskiejacekowski, outlook is worst than modest... outlook express as well14:04
BluesLeewho uses smscon here?14:04
jogaruskie, mostly just accessing an imap account and folder support14:04
cehteh.. note: the next smartphone should have an useable email client14:04
cehtehwith imap, dozens of folders and tens of thousands of messages no email client works :/ ...14:05
jogano prob with mutt14:05
ruskiecehteh, alpine works fine14:05
jogaor, ok, I don't have *tens* of thousands of messages but over a ten thousand at least14:05
cehtehimap idle support?14:06
ruskieany caching client though will fail at most imap tasks14:06
cehtehwell modest cant even select subscribed folders14:06
ruskiemodest is frankly a joke14:06
cehtehand notifies on every incoming mail .. which is most usualy spam14:06
Noteplateto be honest not everybody wants to ssh and other do other "techie" stuff just to read an email14:06
ruskieNoteplate, and they have modest for that14:07
cehtehhere things get into inbox and are sorted then by popfile14:07
ruskieI have on delivery sieve filtering... so stuff is already sorted into folders14:07
jogame too..14:07
ruskieand I have a New mails server provided virtual dir that shows all new mail in various folders14:07
NoteplateWhen nokia sold the phone there was no warning that the phone is for linux geeks only. There are plenty of end users who own the phone and for good reason too14:07
ruskieNoteplate, end users by Nokia definition will use the phone as is out of the box I'd say14:08
crashanddieNoteplate, abill_uk, is that you?14:08
jogamost non-techy end users I know have sold it for some other phone...14:08
cehtehi am a linux geek but still there is no useable mail solution14:08
NoteplateIts like buying a car then being told it will only work if your a mechanic14:08
jogaI agree with cehteh14:08
jogabesides using mutt14:08
cehtehmutt is not really a solutiion14:09
ruskiecehteh, agreed... there is no actual usable email client on the n900 that would just work14:09
jogaproblem was, I was asked what mail client would be ok (a gui one) but couldn't give an answer after researching a bit14:09
Noteplateruskie, your saying that no end user will want to add functionality to their phone?14:09
ruskieNoteplate, most of them won't use a phone beyond basic calls and messaging14:09
Noteplatealso for me if I run into a simple problem it pains me to trawl through countless threads for an answer14:09
ruskieNoteplate, then call it tmofaq.blog14:10
jogaI can't understand a person who doesn't use the phone beyond the basics *and* buys a smartphone14:10
ruskieand find the most common questions and answers and do it14:10
cehtehi wont miss threading .. but push email aka imap idle and selectable subscriptions for important folders only and then only notifications enabled for even fewer folders are a must14:10
crashanddieNoteplate, how about you just become an editor for mwkn?14:10
Noteplatewhats mwkn?14:10
crashanddieoh ffs14:10
cehtehand mutt doesnt solve the notification problem14:10
ruskiemaemo weekly news?14:10
ruskieI'd like JUST notification14:11
ruskieno email client at all... just a tool I tell it to get updates from the imap dirs I specifiy... and notify me with a quick from, subject, maybe some body14:11
jogabut hey, you can access n900 over ssh so the mutt running in your shell could make it do a notification!114:11
Noteplateruskie, your telling me that smartphone buyers use only basic calls and messaging, have you heard of the iPhone by any chance?14:11
ruskieNoteplate, I didn't say ALL... I said MOST14:12
NoteplateI dont think thats true14:12
ruskiehell if I look at my own use... I mostly don't use 90% of the functionality of the n900 and I consider myself a geek...14:12
jogaI feel that *most* would expect being able to do something more besides sms and calling14:12
crashanddieNoteplate, you're a troll. I'm about to kick your ass out of here.14:12
Noteplateim not a troll14:12
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crashanddieThen don't behave like one.14:13
maybeWTFwell you can play solitaire14:13
jogacrashanddie, like how?14:13
Noteplateyour all just pretty closed minded about new users and anybody helping them14:13
crashanddieOh really?14:13
ruskieI like helping new users...14:13
Noteplateby telling them to use ssh?14:13
ruskiebut I expect them to be able to logically deduce things on their own14:13
ruskienot handholding them on how to do things14:14
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crashanddieNoteplate, listen, good luck on the blog, you're not the first one who tried, and won't be the last, methinks.14:14
jogasometimes a bit of handholding will save a couple years of someone's time and may leave them happier14:14
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ruskieyes a bit14:15
crashanddieNoteplate, however, I've also seen quite a few of those, and most of them went the way of the dodo14:15
ruskiebut I've had to deal with various users over the years of various software... and hit to many times on the: it's urgent I need this done asap tell me all the steps on how to do it NOW! NOW! NOW!!!14:15
Noteplateits almost like if somebody is not an "end user" to you they must be "linux geek" is there no middleground of user who wants to install some good apps and generally use more than calls?14:15
Noteplateall i wanted is a name14:16
crashanddieNoteplate, well, it's exactly because the whole community behaves that way that I've stopped being involved14:16
ruskieI suggested it...14:16
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ruskieNoteplate, those users tend to be in the I need help how can I do this and that14:16
crashanddieor howtomaemo14:16
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crashanddieyou'll definitely get a lot of hits from all the users typing "how to $x maemo" in google.14:17
Noteplatehow to n900?14:17
maybeWTFpush buttan14:17
ruskiethat could work as well14:17
Noteplatebut its not just how tos, there will be other stuff :s14:18
Noteplatelike css3/html5 testing14:18
ruskieyour point?14:18
crashanddiemaemovolcano then14:18
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crashanddieNow, don't say we didn't help.14:19
ruskieas for the aggressive stance against users... I've had like a month or so ago had a person come to some channel and ask for a fully working config for their setup for that software so they wouldn't have to do it while they were charging a client for that service!!!14:20
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jogathat would be *AWESOME*14:21
jogaimagine the furious client after you give them the destructive configuration14:21
jogaor otherwise convoluted so they waste more time reading through it than writing their own14:22
ruskieI tend to mostly link users to relevant docs for their problems14:22
Noteplateso how do you guys browse facebook?14:22
jogabut such blatancy should be used be some funny person14:22
jogaI'm not on facebook so no problem for me..14:23
JaffaNoteplate: Web site, infrequently.14:23
Noteplateon your n900?14:23
ruskieNoteplate, fecesbook? haven't touched it ever14:23
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jogaI'd just use the browser I guess14:23
JaffaNoteplate: Have you considered a nicely tended garden as part of
JaffaNoteplate: Take on ownership of {{Category:HowTo}}, come up with a nice consistent template and style guide.14:23
NoteplateScinario: your out with friends, one of them tells you about a funny video on youtube(about cats or something retarded) how would you view it? native browser? or a viewer, but then which one? you dont have time to piss about with each solution so it would of been better to know in advance, when that nice blog showed you the best client.14:26
JaffaNoteplate: Yes, on my N900.14:26
ruskieNoteplate, youtube-dl with mplayer ;)14:27
JaffaNoteplate: Not sure about your use case. The speed of download would be a little limiting, I think. Meaning - in that user story - the built-in browser would be best.14:27
Noteplatethe blog would list things like this so end users and geeks alike would know the best way to do things14:28
Noteplateby showing the pros and cons of each way14:28
Noteplatesame with facebook, the full site display images in that annoying modal box14:29
JaffaNoteplate: Your definition of "best" may vary, of course.14:29
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Noteplateyes, but the reader would be able to tell by the review of the app within the article14:30
JaffaNoteplate: Anyway, as I hinted, the chronological nature of a blog isn't the best taxonomy; and it'd be more useful to the community to take on a portion of the garden, and tend it as its groundkeeper.14:30
JaffaNoteplate: Are you going to try and be a review place as well, like or other sites which just regurgitate
NoteplateA bit, but also like the .appstorm website particularly this:
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Noteplatearticles like that, helping n900 users do simple things in every day situations14:32
JaffaFantastic idea.14:33
JaffaI still suggest the wiki14:33
Noteplatemaybe "intergrate your n900 with social media" best way to upload to flickr,youtube,facebook ect14:33
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JaffaThen you don't have to worry about the name and, when you lose interest, your content isn't lost.14:33
Noteplateok ill have a look at the wiki14:34
Noteplatemy username is jackdoor14:34
Noteplateim not sure if i will use the wiki but i may14:35
JaffaWell, if you choose not to, we'll wish you luck & send you on your way.14:36
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Noteplatethanks for the discussion guys, i think some content definatly belongs in the wiki but some may require a separate blog. Ill have a think about it at lunch14:40
DocScrutinizer~bon appetit14:41
infobotwell, bon appetit is smacznego.  Guten Appetit.  Eet Smakelijk.  God Appetitt.  Buon Appetito.  Buen apetito  Bom Apetite. buen apetito  Smaklig måltid!.  Hyvää ruokahalua.  Bo Proveito  Mahlzeit!14:41
Noteplatethe wiki seems to be aimed at the n810/n80014:42
DocScrutinizer51it's aimed at maemo devices14:43
infobotfrom memory, flashing is
Noteplatewould an entry of "how to watch tv on your n900" be acceptable14:43
JaffaNoteplate: Of course14:44
DocScrutinizer51much appreciated14:44
JaffaNoteplate: and seem appropriate sections to slot into14:45
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Noteplatethanks guys I've got lunch break in 10 so ill have a think and probably start work when i get home14:47
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NoteplateI think I will make the blog and mirror some of the content to the wiki. As some posts would not fit into the wiki like "top 10 n900 games" or "having fun with Dj turntables for the n900"14:52
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ThreeMsometimes the mediaplaye widget stop working15:08
ThreeMonly the play button15:08
ThreeMwhen i close the widget and open it again, a few widgets crash15:09
ThreeMany idea why?15:09
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SpeedEvilOn the stock mdia player - is there a way to 'jog' - the track playing back or foward with the keyboard?15:13
SpeedEvilOn a 2h program - say - it's hard to move position by under 10 mins.15:14
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JaffaSpeedEvil: NAFAIK :-(15:20
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ruskie <-- hmm "and a biometric fingerprint security pad, which doubles as the power/sleep button." mugger: "give us your phone" grab his arm... pulls finger over the reader... there unlocked... now we have it all15:23
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ruskieactually the atrix looks interesting as a netbook replacement with that dock15:30
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prontoso i use a socks5 proxy to tunnel my traffic, does anyone know of a way to get chrome to also tunnel dns traffic?15:32
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thopiekarpronto: have you checked about:config?15:43
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RST38h...and now, the shocker: Android does not have a core file chooser component!15:53
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ruskieRST38h, well that doesn't actually seem so weird given googles cloud tendencies15:55
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JaffaRST38h: That's OK, neither does QML15:57
prontooh wow, i compeley posted that in the wrong channel...15:57
thopiekarhope it helped anyways.. about:config will give you more options to change..15:58
prontochrome does not have an about:config15:58
prontoi know firefox has an about:config optoin for dns tunneling15:58
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RST38h Android device emulator crashes pitifully after ~5-10 minutes of running16:30
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mgedminat least maemo doesn't have this problem (no emulator -> no problem)16:30
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Macerandroid device emulator?16:34
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Maceris it just a dalvik jre?16:35
mgedminI don't think so16:35
mgedminit was way too slow to be just a jre16:36
mgedminI think it emulates a CPU16:36
Macerwhy does it need to emulate a cpu?16:36
mgedminbeats me16:36
mgedmincan you use native code in android apps, or is it all just dalvik?16:36
Macerthey released a native sdk16:36
mgedminwell then16:37
Maceri think it is called ndk or something16:37
mgedminI base my guess on observation: I downloaded an android game and ran it in the emulator, for kicks16:37
mgedminit was too slow to be playable16:37
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griWasn't the android emulator just another qemu running the system?16:38
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* lardman is rather surprised that apparently one cannot specify the default line endings in QtCreator16:41
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gruinelliHi all17:30
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CaCO3I am trying to mount a network drive with sshfs. It works and I can see the first level of teh mounted directory, how ever I get this error on mounting: "mount: getcwd: No such file or directory". Does anybody know how to solve this? Havent found a solution in the web yet :(17:32
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scoobertroncan I make it so that the terminal icon will open a new terminal even if one is open already?  I know I can open a new one from within xterm, but I would prefer to use the icon to launch new terminals.18:36
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Jaffascoobertron: Yes, but I forget how18:44
Jaffascoobertron: Look at vim's .desktop file18:45
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Jaffascoobertron: ...and the vim.launch script18:45
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scoobertronI fixed it by adapting the solution here
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GeneralAntillesI love Engadget:
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ruskieresistive isn't really archaic19:22
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jacekowskiwell, resistive is older than capacitive19:30
jacekowskibut it can do some things that capacitive can't19:30
jacekowskiSAW screens would be great if can be made sensitive enough to work with stylus19:31
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kevloralHello all19:38
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GeneralAntillesruskie: intellectual honesty is a scarce resource at Engadget.com19:45
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VenemoGeneralAntilles, "intellectual" is a scarce resource at engadget.com19:51
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GeneralAntillesVenemo, no, it's filled to the brim with "intellectuals" (see the Week in Green column). :P19:53
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fusi[n901]how many n900 were sold?20:11
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GeneralAntillesfusi[n901], nobody but Nokia knows for sure.20:12
fusi[n901]just curious how large userbase is20:12
petteriquite big, I would guess20:13
petteribut getting smaller all the time20:13
fusi[n901]millions or thousands do you think20:13
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petteriif those where the options i would pick the first one :)20:14
GAN900Million, maybe.20:14
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SpeedEvilIIRC 130K was mentioned as having sold in the first few weeks by nokia20:15
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fusi[n901]thats a lot more than i thought20:20
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CaCO3I am trying to mount a network drive with sshfs. It works and I can see the first level of teh mounted directory, how ever I get this error on mounting: "mount: getcwd: No such file or directory". Does anybody know how to solve this? Havent found a solution in the web yet :(21:25
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RST38hElectric cars manufactured by Nissan surreptitiously leak detailed information about a driver's location, speed and destination to websites accessed through the vehicle's built in RSS reader22:51
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Venemo~burn nvidia for making such a crappy driver23:28
* infobot pours gasoline all over nvidia for making such a crappy driver, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze23:28
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Venemothank you infobot23:29
infobotVenemo: gern geschehen23:29
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