IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-06-03

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GeneralAntillesHoly hell. Jet lag round two.00:23
SpeedEvilI have a foolproof method for avoiding jetlag.00:24
SpeedEvilDon't fly anywhere.00:24
SpeedEvilThough I make up for it by having a comedically disturbed sleep schedule without mechanical assistance.00:25
lcukn900computers are still mechanical00:26
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GeneralAntillesIt didn't help that I was sitting next to "Stinky wide batting stance guy" on the long flight back to Atlanta.00:27
GeneralAntillesand didn't sleep much.00:27
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NIN101My N900 LED sometimes blinks red, what does it mean(I guess nothing good :-))?00:34
NIN101at least when I try to charge it...00:34
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myuuon nit droid?00:36
arvutwill a backup be enough to restore the phones settings, apps, calender and bookmarks if I choose to reflash it to fix it after I messed it up by installing a devel app?00:37
SpeedEvilIt will not restore apps.00:37
SpeedEvilIt has a list of apps that you can choose to restore drom the repositories00:37
lcukn900a backup stores lists of apps and repos00:37
arvutnot even reinstall them/redownload them?00:37
NIN101or it isn't even red, probably orange but never gets really turned on, don't know how to explain. I thnk my usb port is dying, damn it.00:38
SpeedEvilIf the repositories are down - angry birds - say - you can't redownload00:38
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arvutand if I reflash, extras-devel will be disabled by default?00:38
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arvutNIN101: I've seen that colour of my LED too once or twice. I know there is an app that lets you configure the led, if that helps00:40
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arvutbtw, if is running at 70% cpu and logging something to the /tmp, does that indicate a f-up?00:42
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SpeedEvilDepends on the something.00:43
SpeedEvilIn some cases, X having high CPU is not an error, as the app  is asking  X to do work00:43
SpeedEvilwhat's the error/00:43
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arvutwell, from what I can tell, the device is slow (really slow) from time to time), screen stays black for longer than it should and top reports high cpu usage on -logfile00:46
arvuthildon-desktop likes to freeze too00:47
arvutin other words, not responding, asking me if I wanna close it00:47
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SpeedEvilLook at /tmp/Xorg.0.log00:49
arvutthe problem as far as I can tell is that goes from the normal 3.2% cpu usage to 30, 50 & 70% cpu usage, which worries me00:49
arvutSpeedEvil: anything I should look for in it? I already did and I didn't understand it that well00:50
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arvutor should I post a pagebin of it?00:51
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arvutright, typo00:52
SpeedEvilI know.00:52
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arvutplease do try to explain, I wanna learn :P01:07
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arvutnot sure this is relevant but if aptitude returns sigsev whenever I try to use it, does that mean my device is acting weird or is it the app itself?01:16
arvutI have experience from using it under ubuntu01:16
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arvutSpeedEvil: found anything? It feels somewhat quiet in here ;)01:20
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SpeedEviloh - I forgot01:22
SpeedEvilEverything normal in that log01:23
SpeedEvilOn a quick skim anyway01:23
arvuthaha, I tend to do that too.01:23
arvutsounds good then, wanna teach me how to read it btw?01:23
SpeedEvilyeah - I get the same warnings at the start too - so that's not an issue01:23
arvutor whatcha be doin?01:24
SpeedEvilI forget.01:24
SpeedEvilWW lines are warnings01:24
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SpeedEvilII are informational errors01:24
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arvutdouble equals must be somehow related to the C language01:25
SpeedEvilIt's not actually helpful in diagnosis - as mine is essentially identical01:25
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arvuta completely different question then; do you know what encryption the backups are protected with? (when they got pw's) =)01:27
SpeedEvilAren't tehy zips?01:27
SpeedEvilWhch would imply it's zip passwords.01:27
SpeedEvil(which are broken, with a known plaintext attack if you know 13 bytes at the begiinign of any file BTW)01:27
arvutI tend to create awesome backups of my desktops and how things are arranged exactly the way I want it to be, then pw them01:28
arvutthe 13 first bytes of the file when hexdumped?01:28
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arvutyou lost me there01:29
SpeedEvilIf you know 13 bytes of the compressed file.01:29
SpeedEvilThe first 13.01:29
SpeedEvilThen you can work out the password of the archive.01:29
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arvutI bet thats googlable, but if you'd care to explain in more detail that would be cool too =)01:30
arvutwhy is it so quiet in here at this time of the day anyway? is it a channel mostly used by working devs?01:31
vldcnstwe're watching pr0n01:32
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arvutI scry the internet and chat with /dev/null then01:33
arvutI found a funny topic about xorg in the forums.. "what the hell is xorg" =)01:34
SpeedEvilJust google known plaintext zipfile01:35
vldcnstSpeedEvil: are you sure you can get the password?01:35
SpeedEvilI don't think you can get the password, you can get a password that works though01:36
SpeedEvilI forget - it's been a decadish since I needed to.01:36
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BCMMarvut: not all maemo users are otherwise linux users01:44
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arvutBCMM: since maemo is a linux distro then I would say they are :)01:47
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BCMMi said "otherwise"01:47
arvutoh, sorry =P01:48
arvutI'm mostly a windows user myself, should really go recompile the kernel for my desktop gentoo install. just can't be bothered todo it :|01:49
BCMMgentoo user here, and it's very little work to rebuild the kernel once it's set up right01:52
javispedroseems that guys are being serious with ipv6 this time01:52
BCMMthe gentoo manual favours a needlessly fiddly install method01:52
javispedrolet's see if google can finally flip the switch to dual for once dammit.01:52
BCMMjavispedro: well, they can't do anything else now01:52
BCMMthe addresses are actually all gone...01:52
javispedrooh, they can.01:53
javispedroI am already starting to hear about hierarchical NAT...01:53
BCMMyeah, i suppose they can. i really do not want the carrier-grade NAT solution01:53
BCMMin the long run, that has to be more expensive01:53
derfThere's only so many ports.01:53
javispedroit's not necessarily N-to-1 nat01:54
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arvutBCMM: problemm is, mne paniced, someone in #gentoo said it was due to lack of fs support, which would make sense01:55
BCMM"not syncing"?01:55
infobotarvut meant: BCMM: problemm is, mine paniced, someone in #gentoo said it was due to lack of fs support, which would make sense01:55
arvutdelete that infobot!01:55
javispedrotime to look at the sad state of home adsl routers again..01:56
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arvuthmm, cant remember, I do have a nice gentoo-style grub with win7 as first choice tho01:56
arvutjavispedro: what about them? shall they crash and burn?01:57
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javispedrothey DO crash and burn.01:58
arvutjavispedro: I've  never had one. but sure, yes they do01:59
arvutbtw, I love woodmann for its many great articles :) And thank you SpeedEvil for telling me about the known plaintext attack. now I got enough reading for the whole weekend :)02:00
arvutthat.. sounded fairly odd02:01
GeneralAntillesThe trend towards integrated routers/modems is scary.02:02
GeneralAntillesI have yet to see one that isn't useless garbage02:02
lcukyet they are out there in their millions02:03
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: I've got one that I would like - if only it had source. (and a few more megs of RAM)02:03
lcukso they must be "good enough"02:03
SpeedEvilLinux, busybox, configurable.02:03
GeneralAntilleslcuk, no, people are just to under informed to know otherwise.02:03
SpeedEvilI'd really love an opensource DSL stack.02:04
lcukGeneralAntilles, under informed to what?02:04
GeneralAntillesand Microsoft products have set their expectations of technology very low.02:04
SpeedEvilBut I may be wierd.02:04
GeneralAntilleslcuk, sorry, too jet lagged to play this weird game with you.02:04
lcukand if you want to make a change, go to the isp with your notes/ideas/principles02:04
* javispedro likes integrated router+modem02:05
javispedroone reason: power.02:05
javispedrosadly, I do see they all suck.02:05
lcukGeneralAntilles, not game playing, just wondering what the problem with them is02:05
lcukoutside lab conditions they tend to work02:05
SpeedEvilI'm actually going to an 'old linux box' for a router, from an integrated unit in a few days.02:05
lcukpeople tsk and tut and just get replacement from isp if its tits up02:05
lcukgives folks something to talk about02:05
* javispedro would do that if it weren't for ... power, you guessed it!02:05
SpeedEvilHowever, the old linux box is a laptop that uses ~6W - so it's comparable with the router.02:05
SpeedEvilAnd it can also run other stuff.02:05
javispedrolaptop that uses ~6W? where?02:06
SpeedEvilIt was cheaper than a pogoplug02:06
lcuk"argggg the modem * from $ISP screwed up my internet"   * its a modem/router/coffee machine02:06
javispedroit's an atom?02:06
SpeedEviljavispedro: Thinkpad x60s02:06
SpeedEviljavispedro: Though I forget how I got 6.5W - it's about 9 now.02:06
javispedrothat sounds more reasonable... and screen off and totally idle.02:06
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javispedrolcuk: it comes with an usb port these days so they plug their ipods on it and then complain it didn't give their ipods internet02:07
javispedro(I'm talkinga bout cheap-o ipods, not the iphone-like ones)02:08
* arvut wonders in what way an ipod could be used to spread evil content =)02:13
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javispedrohiding a bomb inside it?02:15
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arvuta bomb contains evil content? didn't know that :)02:38
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: ping02:40
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timelesshow the heck do i contact welho from abroad by email?03:09
SpeedEvilFind finlands dialing code03:10
SpeedEviloh there it is03:10
SpeedEvilinternational dialing prefix 3584414404403:11
arvutwhat does (++) , (**) & (==) mean in the xorg log?03:15
cehtehdefaults, from config etc .. dunno what order03:15
arvutare they some logical operators?03:15
cehtehits somewhere in the log explained by itself03:15
cehtehdefaults, probed, from config  ..03:16
cehtehMarkers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,03:16
cehteh        (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,03:16
cehteh        (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.03:16
cehteh10th line of the logfile ..03:16
arvutI made way-too-hot chocolate.. too much ginger and chilly03:17
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arvutI should have spiced it with weed instead03:20
timelessspeedevil: i don't want to call them, that's expensive03:21
timelessi want to *email* them03:21
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SpeedEvilThat would be too easy.03:30
SpeedEvilI'm currently really pissed of at the government department I'm dealing with.03:30
SpeedEvilEverything has to be in writing.03:30
SpeedEvilOf course no email. And they take 5 days after they get mail to actually notice it's appeared.03:31
SpeedEvilAnd they lose stuff.03:31
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arvutgovernments suck03:35
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Maceris meego officially dead?04:42
cehtehdoes it matter if thats official or inofficial?04:43
cehtehand do you ask for meego in general or from elop/nokias point?04:43
SpeedEvilNokia has a meego fork - that forked most of a year ago.04:44
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Macercehteh: i just heard a rumor that meego was officially dead04:45
cehtehintel still works on it04:47
SpeedEvilIntel and various other people are working actively on it.04:48
SpeedEvilNokia is even contributing in some ways as I understand it, seperately to the harmattan effort.04:49
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Macermeh. maemo5 is the best heh05:00
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yigalso I'll bring back the same Qs I had this afternoon.  Why are reasonable features threads, tags, and fullscreen no implemented in Modest?  Is it because it's too difficult, in a reasonable way, or are people very lazy.  I have to imagine the 1st but well?05:30
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ShadowJKclaws does threads, but atleast on N810 it takes like 30 minutes and full swap usage to update my email :)05:32
ShadowJKI imagine it's pretty hard to make threads both low-memory, responsive (because if it responds slower than a web browser I can just use webmail) and not do just 100 posts at a time like modest :P05:33
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cehtehif only imap-idle would be enabled in modest05:43
cehtehpile of shit :P05:43
mr_jrtI'd settle for just being able to select which folders I want to subscribe to, and whcih I want notificatiosn for. Closely followed by changign the way sent mails are apparently handled (i.e. not stored on device, stored in configurabel location, etc.). One for the todo list methinks.05:48
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yigalsorry drunk and playing poker, but thanks for the discourse05:59
yigalI mean thanks for the attempt to answer the question, but I think threads, and tags shouldn't be a crazy memory problem nor fullscreen06:00
yigalI mean Mutt does that so?06:00
yigalI guess a desire to make it compatible with Outlook or something?06:01
yigalit's lame, makes me laugh at the idea of "this is a computer" not a phone, phh06:02
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yigalif it was a computer it would have been given a 4"+ screen and a decent email client06:03
yigalok, stop Nokia bashing06:03
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yigalNokia how bright you were when you brought out the n8x006:07
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yigalmy bad06:16
dangergrrlnokia made my n900 and i love that06:18
dangergrrlbut they bought into wp7 and i hate that06:18
dangergrrlhow hard is it to port a python app to n900 if you know no python, just C, C++, lisps, used to know perl, lex/yacc, most any assembly, etc?06:20
dangergrrli want to be able to use a pc at a public library to get individual kindle books from my amazon library and de drm it so i can read on n90006:22
dangergrrlwas thinking calibre might be nice on the n90006:22
dangergrrlhi from a beer drinking biker woman in texas, yigal who's ipaddy is in l a06:24
yigalI'm so confused dangergrrl06:31
yigalyou want to port a python app. when you don't know python06:32
yigalwhat type of app.?06:32
dangergrrli know unix06:32
yigalI feel it06:32
yigalI do too :D06:32
dangergrrlebook reader/toolkit06:32
yigalnot sure06:32
dangergrrllearned unix when the internet was still arpanet06:33
yigalnot sure how I should feel about it :D06:33
yigalI feel you would be dropping something like that06:33
yigalI learned *nix 7 years ago06:33
yigalbut I loved it as soon as I was introduced06:34
yigalgrep sed chown sed it's d bomb06:34
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dangergrrlbash is sweet for interactive programming06:35
yigalzsh is my term, I can't understand why it wasn't adopted by more06:36
dangergrrli ♥ gnu06:37
dangergrrl<3 for the unicode impaired06:37
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yigalman I'm too drunk to make simple happy faces, this is great06:37
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dangergrrlactually on recent X11 ♥ is compose < 306:38
yigalX11 I switch between xmonad and compiz06:38
dangergrrlyou have to turn on a compose key in xkb or keyboard prefs06:38
yigalboth are sweet in their own way06:38
dangergrrli use compiz06:39
dangergrrlnot tried the other06:39
yigalit's very good at tyling06:39
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dangergrrlno gpu use?06:40
yigalvery little06:40
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dangergrrlcompiz makes my machine slower because it uses GPU memory and i am using a motherboard GPU with shared mem06:42
yigalme too intel 94506:42
yigalbut the bling is sometimes useful06:42
yigalthe scale function, basically the task switcher, almost n900s without the ability to close apps through it, that's what I find most useful06:44
dangergrrli use 32 bit ubuntu to run maemo sdk06:44
dangergrrli put it on a face of the cube by itself06:44
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dangergrrlcompize lets you face switch when you have full screen apps06:45
yigalyes, that's pretty good06:45
yigaldangergrrl: so compiz by itself that's what you use?06:46
yigalI think it's a good WM06:46
dangergrrlon sabayon which i think is gnome 206:46
dangergrrlby default06:46
dangergrrli like gentoo and have crappy hardware06:47
dangergrrlsabayon is binary gentoo06:47
yigalya, I like archlinux06:47
yigalsimilar idea06:47
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yigalman I've done quite well in poker today06:51
yigalabout $1006:52
yigalI've made about $1000 over a year06:53
yigalshould make myself big league go to Vegas :D06:53
yigalprobably lose every penny in an hour06:54
dangergrrlmaybe you should start a software company06:55
dangergrrlbill gates quit harvard because he made too much playing poker06:55
yigalI have a degree in physics, hasn't helped me too much financially06:56
yigala good socially responsible exceptionally reasonable software company I'd like that06:58
yigalperhaps 1 day I'll be lucky enough06:58
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yigalwhat about you dangergrrl what do you do to feed and clother yourself?07:06
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dangergrrli collect a disability check07:07
yigalI seriously don't think anyone should have to work in this day and age unless they want to07:08
dangergrrlit is a long story07:09
dangergrrlsomeone tried to murder me i got a head injury07:09
yigaldude that sucks hardcore07:09
SpeedEvilSome people really don't like open-source.07:13
yigaloh shit, lol07:13
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dangergrrlwell, i get to ride my motorcycle around america and not work07:14
dangergrrli was actually having a debate with someone over AGPL earlier07:14
SpeedEvilI know L and ""07:14
dangergrrlit't the new gnu public license for cloud apps07:15
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dangergrrlif you use the code on a public web werver you must offer source code07:15
SpeedEvilthe 'distribution' clause is messy for that kind of stuff, yes.07:15
SpeedEvilOh - that's a seperate issue.07:16
dangergrrlwell you aren't distributing the code so gpl does not apply to custom versions07:16
dangergrrlyou can customize and never release under gpl07:17
dangergrrlbut you are not the end user07:17
SpeedEvilI was assuming it was clarifying the uissue about when distribution occurs on rented computers, or customers computers that you install it on.07:18
SpeedEvilAnd stuff like that.07:19
yigaldarn got 2nd on that poker match too drunk07:20
dangergrrlwell my friend wrote the code for duuit.com07:23
dangergrrlwhich is a social networking site07:23
dangergrrlit is gpl207:24
yigalsounds good07:24
dangergrrlwhat if facebook decided his code was better than theirs07:24
yigali h8t fbook07:24
dangergrrland wrote whatever they have and he doesn't and based their website on it?07:24
dangergrrland refused to share the code07:24
dangergrrlthey didn't give the binary away07:25
dangergrrlso they do not have to share changes07:25
yigalI'm already angry at fbook07:25
dangergrrlwell, check out :)07:26
dangergrrland you can join #duuit to talk to the dev07:27
dangergrrlsorry for shameless promotion of my friend07:27
yigalty that's how good stuff should be spread, through word of mouth or at least through typing on irc07:27
dangergrrlif it asks for an invitation code i will get one07:30
dangergrrli don't think it does but it says it is an invited trial07:30
dangergrrlwe have an interesting music community07:31
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yigalsounds good I'm too drunk to do anything about it tonight but tomorrow I'll probably ask, if I need to07:31
dangergrrlwell i may be conscious07:32
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dangergrrli bought the amount of alcohol i can handle and the store is far and i do not ride a motorcycle after drinking07:32
yigalgood, no pressure :)07:32
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dangergrrlbut i am usually here and the n900 would not be worth anything without DocScrutinizer and MohammadAG07:33
dangergrrlsorry for dinging guys07:33
dangergrrlbut they are awesome07:33
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yigalnight awesome open source people07:37
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GeneralAntillesSo, Windows 8 on ARM.08:17
GeneralAntillesHow much do you think that's going to jumpstart the CPU race?08:17
robbiethe1stUnless it can run legacy apps through a VM, I don't think it really will08:19
GeneralAntillesYeah, that's always been the big issue.08:20
GeneralAntillesBut, substituting crufty corporate environments where that's usually actually an issue.08:21
robbiethe1stBecause it'll essentially be the same as Android: a mobile OS  with apps designed for the platform.... and not compatible with x86 legacy and other "full" apps08:23
dangergrrlwindows 8 is meh08:24
dangergrrlwe can do better08:24
dangergrrlwith no sweat08:24
robbiethe1stWell, I'd argue that if it was able to run old Windows programs "natively" via a seamless VM, it'd be worth it on tablets. But if not, no reason to pay the MS tax.08:34
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JaffaMorning, all09:55
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hiemanshuMorning MohammadAG10:38
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Evanescenceso quient12:02
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crashanddieLibra: "Romance is in the air, so plan something special with your partner. Single Librans - has your love life been going nowhere? Uranus is about to shake up your relationship zone so expect the unexpected!"12:55
shark_eyeHi alli am facing few problems with setting up for maemo sdk .can any1 help me with that  ??12:56
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myuuanyone use ff4 on n900?13:56
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edheldilis it possible to cancel the mass storage usb mode on n900 without pulling out the cable?15:04
edheldil(or reboot)15:04
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robbiethe1stNot that I know of15:07
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nid0theres a shell script that should do it15:07
nid0surely just replugging the cable's easier though15:08
nid0yer, that one ^15:09
NIN101takes one argument15:09
NIN101the partition which is on mass storage mode...15:09
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AStormhello there, been a long time15:25
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DocScrutinizerold but funny:  coremelt in the virtual world. You know skype is BAD(TM), didn't you?16:05
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fluxdidn't they have a more recent outage as well? did they explain that?16:10
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divanHow to keep the backlight on in Qt? I've read about a few methods - using QSystemScreensaver or emiting some DBus signal every 30 seconds.. but what is most commonly used?16:16
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khertanHello !16:17
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cehtehdivan: for the n900 certainly the dbus method .. i even wonder if its necessary to do that every 30 secs (tough prolly thats failsafe)16:29
SpeedEvilOtherwise the screen blanks16:29
SpeedEvilIf the user does not touch16:29
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DocScrutinizerdivan: the "official" method is by sending 'keep alive' dbus mgs, yu should do this every 10s rather than every 30s, as users might have blanktimes <30s16:30
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divanthanks for replies16:31
divanDocScrutinizer, is blanktime configurable?16:31
DocScrutinizerthere's however another inofficial method that changes blanktime setting to infinite, it's not an officially supported API16:31
divanthe 'every N seconds' method looks more reliable16:32
DocScrutinizerAFAIK simple brightness applet is using this inofficial method to keep screen "always on"16:32
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DocScrutinizerwait a moment, I might find a link for you16:33
divanDocScrutinizer, I know brightness applet. I'll take a look, thanks )16:35
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* DocScrutinizer makes virtual post-it note to add the fsckdup aka missing backlight stay-on option to the long list why mce is bad and needs to go FOSS so such things could get fixed16:37
edheldilFuelpad's import feature is really bad :(16:39
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* DocScrutinizer sighs and mumbles ``fsoraw -r display AppThatShouldntDimm''16:42
DocScrutinizerdid I mention maemo is really not exactly top notch when it comes to a consistent comprehensive middleware layer16:43
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DocScrutinizerofono... meh16:45
DocScrutinizerofono guys really thought fso is "just a wrapper around the modem to do AT" - LOL16:46
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DocScrutinizertake your NIH syndrome and feel happy with it!16:46
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DocScrutinizerdarn, meego could have been a really nice OS if only they adopted FSO16:48
DocScrutinizerlo javispedro16:48
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khertanDocScrutinizer: i prefer nih syndrom than the nokia IHBLRIA16:50
DocScrutinizer~wtf IHBLRIA16:50
infobotGee...  I don't know what IHBLRIA means...16:51
khertan"Invented Here, But Let's Reinvent It Anyway"16:51
DocScrutinizer~IHBLRIA is "Invented Here, But Let's Reinvent It Anyway"16:52
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay16:52
DocScrutinizer~IHBLRIA is also a notion found at Nokia sometimes16:53
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay16:53
* javispedro is starting to like python16:55
DocScrutinizergoogle fsoraw if you want to find a few nice pointers16:55
javispedroand me liking an interpreted language is a dangerous thing...16:55
rm_work<3 python16:55
rm_workthough only the 2.x series16:56
rm_work3.x can suck it16:56
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hiemanshu<3 python :D16:58
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khertanjavispedro: it s too late ... you will not be able to do other language17:02
khertanrm_work: ?17:02
khertanrm_work: arguments ?17:02
rm_workoh, as to why python 3.x is annoying to use?17:03
khertanyou said python 3 sucks ... ? i ask why ?17:03
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rm_workwell, in common use, one of the best things about python 2.x was how magically it did dynamic typing17:06
rm_workthey've completely ruined that in python 317:06
rm_workeven stupidly simple things like "print 1" throw a type error17:06
rm_workin what universe do I want to have to type "print str(1)"?! if i wanted to do that I wouldn't be using python17:07
rm_workthis manifests itself in a myriad of places <_<17:07
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rm_worki guess python2 isn't technically weakly typed17:09
rm_workbut it works in such a way that sometimes it seems like it is (which gave us the best of both worlds)17:10
rm_workjust some really intelligent auto type conversion in specific places17:10
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javispedrotechnically it is weakly typed17:10
javispedrothe fact that you are getting _runtime_ typeerrors kinda proves it.17:11
javispedrono what?17:12
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rm_workno, it is not weakly typed, and no, getting runtime type errors does not prove it (i was talking about getting those in python3.x anyway, not 2.x)17:12
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nusseis there a solution for this bug?
povbotBug 9353: Writing large files to /home/user/MyDocs can take a very very long time17:13
nusseuse the filemanager does not work when using scp17:14
DocScrutinizergetting runtime errors proves exactly nuttin for an interpreted code ;-D17:14
rm_work^^^ this17:14
rm_workthere are no compile errors, EVERYTHING is runtime :P17:14
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khertanrm_work: yep it 's now print(1)17:16
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javispedrorm_work: so, who the hell wrote that page?17:17
khertanrm_work: and there is no difference about compile error or not between 2.0 and 317:17
javispedroit says "why is python a strongly typed language"17:17
rm_workkhertan: i never said there was17:17
rm_workjavispedro: it's a FAQ17:17
khertanrm_work: ah sorry didn't understand :)17:17
javispedrothen it proceeds to say "strong typed = statically typed + strongly typed"17:17
rm_workjavispedro: it says that's common usage17:17
javispedrodefining statically typed as "can tell which type a variable refers to, for example through type inference, without executing the program"17:18
javispedrobut on python, noone can tell the type of variable without executing the program!17:18
DocScrutinizersound odd17:19
javispedroand if we keep to their definition of strong typing,17:19
edheldilrm_work:  is not the problem that in P3, print is a function?17:19
javispedrothen why I can use a real as an int?17:19
rm_workjavispedro: see bullet 217:19
javispedroint as a real?17:20
edheldili.e. use print(1)17:20
rm_workedheldil: possibly :/17:20
rm_work"The object-oriented programming languages Smalltalk, Ruby, Python, and Self are all "strongly typed" in the sense that typing errors are prevented at runtime and they do little implicit type conversion, but these languages make no use of static type checking: the compiler does not check or enforce type constraint rules. The term duck typing is now used to describe the dynamic typing paradigm used by the languages in this group."17:20
javispedroduck typing does not have anything to do with static or dynamic according to that same wikipedia page17:22
javispedroit says something about "if a bird walks like a duck and swims like aduck then it is a duck"17:22
DocScrutinizer(strong types) see: everything is an object, so Ocomplex is an object, but not evry object is compatible to Ocomplex17:22
javispedrosomething you could check statically or dinamically, I couldn't care less.17:22
edheldilkhertan:  ah, sorry, you said it already17:22
* DocScrutinizer wnders if a single person on this earth will get his point17:22
* javispedro would call that structural typing, but that's another story..17:23
javispedro(not DocScrutinizer's point, but the point about the duck)17:23
DocScrutinizerI guess what I want to say is: it's all about your paradigms17:24
DocScrutinizertypes don't have to be disjunct by definition17:25
rm_work  <--- 2.2.117:25
DocScrutinizerit's about the paradigms of the particular language if >print( int 1)< is valid or not17:26
rm_workactually it is now17:26
rm_worki may have to revisit17:26
rm_workjust tried it again in a newer release17:26
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javispedrorm_work: I get your point. But Python has automatic conversions. (int -> real)17:27
javispedroso it's not strong by that definition either.17:27
DocScrutinizerobviously low level lang - like assembler, forth, c(?) - have a strong typing. Higher level lang tend to handle types in a more nifty way17:29
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rm_workhrm, looks like i can't say 3.x sucks anymore, have to limit that to 3.0. seems that 3.1 fixed a few of my main gripes17:31
javispedroI've been reading about it and I prefer the old print syntax17:32
javispedrospecially to print to files.17:32
DocScrutinizer(musing about forth - it's actually a smartass inetractive macro assembler operating on a virtual CPU)17:32
rm_workthen again I really liked ML17:32
rm_workwhich has stupidly strong typing :P17:33
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DocScrutinizer(while c is even more smartass, not interactive, and generating code for arbitrary real machines ;-P )17:34
DocScrutinizerstill I think of c to be the most complex assembler existing17:35
javispedroand portable :D17:35
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DocScrutinizermostly ;-)17:35
khertanrm_work: and 3.2 surely fix the rest17:38
javispedrowtf, they removed reduce in python 3.017:38
DocScrutinizerbut my point about c is that you are on your way to failure when you ever forget about c's nature of being an assembler rather than a compiler17:39
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khertanGuido van Rossum comments on the elimination of map(), filter(), reduce() and lambda from Python 3000:17:39
khertan    About 12 years ago, Python aquired lambda, reduce(), filter() and map(), courtesy of (I believe) a Lisp hacker who missed them and submitted working patches. But, despite of the PR value, I think these features should be cut from Python 3000.17:39
javispedroI see that he added any/all builtins17:40
javispedrokinda agree with that, ok.17:40
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DocScrutinizer(way to failure) a common problem to coders learning on a high level languge though is that they forget they aren't operating in an entirely virtual abstract mathematical universe, and it takes TIME and RESOURCES to instatiate an object for each ascii character of the text in your editor17:43
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DocScrutinizerthat's why I think you should start learning programming with a nice assembler17:45
DocScrutinizerrather than lisp17:45
DocScrutinizeror C++17:45
* javispedro disagrees17:45
javispedrobecause before programming, you need algorithms.17:46
javispedrogood luck doing any of them in asm before truly mastering asm itself.17:46
DocScrutinizerthough those are vastly overrated in their importance for everyday coding duty17:46
DocScrutinizeralgorithms to code a simple "throw the dice" proggy are like null17:47
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DocScrutinizergiven you can use /dev/random17:47
DocScrutinizeralgorithms of "game of life" are utterly simple17:48
javispedroand I'm thinking utterly simple stuff17:49
DocScrutinizereven madelbrodt is not really heavy algo shuffling17:49
cehtehDocScrutinizer: there are some very clever and nontrivial optimizations for game of life simulations17:49
DocScrutinizerof course you shoud've finished your math classes17:49
DocScrutinizercehteh: good luck for expressing these as algorithms X-D17:50
cehtehyou looked at golly?17:50
cehtehinstall that and take a look (on desktop machine)17:51
cehtehi dont know how this algos work but they do exponential speed up17:51
cehtehso you can run billions of generations of really huge maps (infinite bound) in a few seconds/minutes17:52
cehtehvery complex things17:52
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DocScrutinizeryou could e.g. find macro pattern and how they evolve - if you find a recursion, you're done with optimizing this pattern :-)17:53
cehtehyes basically that17:54
cehtehbut its an algorithm to find such patterns too17:54
DocScrutinizerfor instance a glider is very easy to process, once recognized to be one, as long as it doesn't collide17:55
cehtehand there are hillariously huge constructs in life done by its community17:55
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* DocScrutinizer muses about exploiting gzip's dictionary building algos for g-o-l pattern detection17:56
cehtehThe 6,366,548,773,467,669,985,195,496,000th (6 octillionth) generation17:57
cehteh.. you'll never reach that with a linear simulator :)17:57
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keriorm_work: wtf are you smoking18:05
kerioprint <expr> is a syntax error in py318:05
kerioprint is a function18:05
rm_workyeah sorry18:05
rm_workmeant print(1)18:05
kerioit works18:06
rm_workbut it did used to throw a type error18:06
rm_workit works now18:06
keriowhy wouldn't it18:06
rm_workin 3.118:06
rm_workthat was my point :P18:06
kerioyou're lying, but ok18:06
rm_workwhen python 3.0 first came out it would say you had to explicitly convert it to a string18:06
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rm_workso i promptly uninstalled it18:07
AStormand that was so bad, yes?18:07
kerioprint_function in py2.6 doesn't do that18:07
AStormI mean, print(str(...)) too hard?18:07
kerioso i really doubt you're telling the truth18:07
rm_workit's the simplest form of illustration18:07
kerioAStorm: not the point here18:07
AStormoriginal print doesn't convert to string18:07
rm_workno one would ever actually type print(1) in their program anyway18:08
AStormthe one in 2.7.x18:08
kerioAStorm: original print... does18:08
kerioit calls str() on its arguments18:08
AStormI'll check to be extrasure18:08
kerioand it would be hard18:08
AStormyes, it does18:08
keriobecause print takes arbitrary objects, coercing them to strings18:08
AStormthis or calling str()18:09
keriocehteh: hashlife is incredible18:09
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kerioanyway, rm_work, py3k is a much, much better language than python 218:09
keriosadly, it's still not exactly usable because no twisted and no numpy18:10
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rm_workalso no django :/ which i use quite a bit18:14
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javispedrooh, that abill_uk's poll thread is now even funnier.19:00
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Jaffajavispedro: Sufficiently funny for me to open TMO?19:15
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javispedrosince when you last looked at it?19:15
javispedroif it's around three or four days, well, as a spoiler, they for a few pages tried to find licensing "errors" on nokia's part to sue the source code out of them.19:16
javispedromy grammar is sadly becoming funnier every day.19:17
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styleHas anyone been able to connect canon camera to n900 (usb hostmode)19:23
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DocScrutinizers/since when/how  long since/ ?19:45
DocScrutinizerand no, I'm not going to look at tmo again for that freakin thread19:46
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DocScrutinizerI for a purpose didn't answer when that guy suggested to me "how about checking for GPL violations instead?"19:47
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: javispedro: Good grief, they're nots.19:48
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infobotJaffa meant: DocScrutinizer: javispedro: Good grief, they're nuts.19:50
DocScrutinizerjavispedro:  one-time-wonder N900 gfx core going psycho. Alas no clue how to reproduce ;-P19:50
javispedro250 MiB file??19:50
DocScrutinizeryo :-/19:50
javispedrowhat is in there, the new harry potter movie? =)19:50
DocScrutinizerno video editing on N900, see?19:50
DocScrutinizerwell, harry potter might be involved, having cursed the N900 ;-)19:51
javispedroI've seen many weird things with the sgx.19:51
DocScrutinizernot a funny friggin nice one like this though, I guess19:51
DocScrutinizerI honestly thought for a short while that has to be some gfx art producing prog somebody smuggled onto my N90019:52
javispedroabill_uk did that via his mastery of telekinesis and televectordrawing.19:53
DocScrutinizerI simply unlocked a pretty normal maemo hildon screen, and that's been what I got19:53
javispedrois it SFW?19:53
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I'm afraid that's true :-D19:53
povbotBug 11794: Open Fremantle's MCE19:54
javispedroqgil: "There are no plans to open the Fremantle version."19:54
DocScrutinizeryou honestly expected *anything* else?19:54
javispedroon the bright side, this only took half a year!19:55
DocScrutinizerNokia's seriously going "F*CK YOU maemo"19:55
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DocScrutinizermaybe we could convince somebody@nokia to provide the unstripped binaries of quite some blobs ?19:57
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DocScrutinizercan't be a big thing in any respect19:57
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DocScrutinizerexcept codesize :-P19:57
javispedrothe fremantle codebase is probably already lost19:59
DocScrutinizerI bet there's no official policy about "you must not publish unstripped binaries" or even "lawyers have to check binaries with symbols prior to disclosure/publishing"19:59
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javispedronokia has provided unstripped binaries in the past19:59
javispedrocan't really remember an example...19:59
DocScrutinizersome bored devel can do now :-)20:00
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javispedrothe stuff in the video does not seem sgx20:05
DocScrutinizertell me what you think it is :-)20:06
javispedrodunno, unless you have a video with static and music? ;P20:06
DocScrutinizerdefinitely not20:06
javispedroit is clearly a message from god.20:07
DocScrutinizerfunny part is I never before heard that music either, but it might be somewhere in the 10GB of MP3 hanging around there20:07
javispedroit is sgx after all20:07
javispedroweird thing is that I don't know why there was static on video... video should be overlayed..20:08
javispedroaah, it is not a video, it's always normal ui20:08
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DocScrutinizersome of the static is from recording, not actually from the recorded DUT20:08
javispedroI see20:09
javispedroso then it is definitely sgx.20:09
DocScrutinizer(I added that for the proper blairwitch effect :-P )20:09
javispedroand this happened after a fresh boot, or with a long uptime?20:10
DocScrutinizerprobably rather fresh boot20:10
DocScrutinizerlike sitting idle after boot for some hours20:10
javispedrothen I bet this is caused by what I was talking about the other day, the 1 in a 60 chance of weird sgx boot20:10
DocScrutinizerit's my devel device which doesn't run much more than a sshd usually20:11
javispedroso prolly there's a 1 in a billion chance of really weird sgx boot.20:11
* DocScrutinizer ponders moving the video to YT for easy watching20:12
DocScrutinizerdunno if it's worth the effort20:12
javispedroit can't hurt20:12
DocScrutinizerk, so teach me about upping to YT, please :-) never did it20:12
DocScrutinizerheard I'd need to convert to flash, can't do that20:13
javispedroyou probably don't, yours was xvid20:13
DocScrutinizermp4 aka H263? sth20:14
javispedrompeg4 asf20:14
javispedro(not h263 iirc)20:14
DocScrutinizerotoh YT has some size limitations as well AFAIK20:15
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: ping20:15
* RST38h moos at javispedro and the Doc20:15
* DocScrutinizer remoos20:16
javispedroHELO RST38h20:16
RST38hInternet Explorer Use Slips Below 55%20:16
javispedrosadly, slashdot is returning 503 here =)20:16
RST38hjavispedro: You really want to watch dull people gloating?20:18
javispedrono, but I want to read about that "bomb making info replaced with cupcake recipe by mi6" headline20:19
RST38hjavispedro: see it on theregister20:19
RST38hBut it is basically what it says20:19
GeneralAntillesCan we just fast-forward to the 21st already?20:20
javispedroto see another capacitive screen device?20:21
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* RST38h does not understand why people are getting all upset about capacitive/resistive thing20:23
GeneralAntillesTo see anything at all.20:23
GeneralAntillesI'm sort of "Meh" about the whole issue at this point.20:23
style any ideas why I'm unable to mount any of those devices?20:23
GeneralAntillesYeah, it's not ideal. But I want something to be excited about.20:23
stylethere is 4 /dev/usbdev1.58ep{00,02,81,83}20:24
javispedrostyle: that does not look like a mass storage. you should try and use that camera on a normal gnu/Linux desktop first.20:24
* javispedro still wants a stylus20:24
stylehmmm, one of those devices should be my memory card tough..20:24
RST38hGeneral: A 4.8" slim Acer Iconia Smart device? =)20:24
javispedroRST38h: you kinda love 5'' devices, eh?20:25
stylenormal linux desktop shows onl: [16952700.044057] usb 1-5: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 420:26
style[16952700.179804] usb 1-5: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice20:26
javispedrostyle: pastebin20:26
stylejavispedro: it was just 2 lines :/20:26
SpeedEvilstyle: Are you sure you can in fact mount it at all?20:26
SpeedEvilstyle: Anyway. Google.20:26
styleSpeedEvil: atm, no. I've tried to google and I didn't found anything :/20:27
stylewell maybe the easiest way is to buy memory card reader20:27
SpeedEvilstyle: Search for 04a9 3224 camera kernel driver20:27
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RST38hjavispedro: I have poor sight and like reading from them20:28
styleSpeedEvil: propably hard to find because that camera model is like 1 month old20:28
RST38hjavispedro: So, yes, 5" would be ideal20:28
RST38hCan even sacrifice the keyboard, given that it will make the whole device unpocketable20:29
SpeedEvilstyle: what's the camera?20:29
stylecanon powershot a3200 IS20:30
SpeedEvilI'd look for projects reading canon powershot cameras.20:30
SpeedEvilLook for earlier models20:30
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danger94833is overclocking with a backup an awful idea? (800mhz)20:32
RST38hoverclocking is a bad idea in general20:32
danger94833old , out of warranty. etc20:32
RST38halthough your NAND flash may die before your CPU does...20:32
danger94833i overclcok my desktop, but i do realize x86 is different20:32
SpeedEvilstyle: Lists tha A2100 IS20:33
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danger94833Also i dont use it 24/7, so thinking it wont be at high cpu clock so much, not going to mess with voltages.20:34
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javispedrolarger screen = more feeling I need a stylus :(20:37
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infobotwell, omap-oc is  read that!, or and this
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RST38hAlso here: (yes, I know, they look like sausages)20:39
javispedroRST38h: note: the capacitive stylus ois on the opposite side to the ball point pen part.20:40
javispedroRST38h: they basically suck. I already have a natural sausage implanted on my body (called finger) if I really wanted to use a sausage for some reason.20:40
RST38hthere are some relatively thin ones though20:41
javispedrobut ofc what I want is a ... stylus. sharp pointed stylus.20:41
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javispedromore thin => less sensitive on capacitive20:42
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RST38hhow about getting the ipen (or whatever it is called) and using it as a stylus?20:42
danger94833hey all, running smartreflux doesnt seem to cause anything UI/crasing problems.. should i continue running it?20:42
javispedroRST38h: what is the ipen?20:42
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javispedroah, optical stuff20:43
RST38ha pen with some optics and a bt interface20:43
RST38hkinda like mini optical mouse20:43
javispedrothat might be a sellable idea.20:43
javispedrobut you might need certain resolution on the screen.20:44
RST38hyou do not use it on the screen, you use it on paper :)20:44
RST38hor a desktop, or anthing20:44
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danger94833doesnt the livescribe require special paper?20:46
danger94833i would of bought it if it didnt require special paper20:47
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javispedroyou can print the paper20:48
javispedroit's just a grid.20:48
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danger94833so i buy it, print out say 100 sheets , put it in a binder... write on it with the pen, it "saves" , and then sends to like evernote?20:49
danger94833how long is the battery life?20:49
javispedroI was really considering once long ago -- until I saw the price.20:49
javispedro*considering one20:50
javispedroway more20:50
danger94833back then20:50
danger94833is it just black and white printing?20:50
danger94833i honestly want to buy one now20:50
javispedrodanger94833: they list on their website printers that are compatible, search for them if you plan to buy one.20:51
danger94833have to be special printer?20:51
DocScrutinizergood printers will do I guess20:51
danger94833i was gonna goto one of those printing stores , get it mass photocopied20:51
javispedroneeds some resolution.20:52
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javispedro"back then" the list was long already.20:52
DocScrutinizerthe grid is "morse code"20:52
javispedroso I'd bet any recent printer will make it these days.20:52
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danger94833you will need a Color LaserJet Printer that is Adobe PostScript compatible and can print at 600dpi or higher.20:57
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javispedroif this wasn't complete vaporware:
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danger94833javispedro: im gonna buy the livescribe next week21:08
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Jaffajavispedro: That thread is teh lolz21:09
javispedrotoldya :)21:10
danger94833bought a 50Wh portable battery pack :)21:10
lcukn900i thought that read 50kWh and wondered whether it came 2ith a wheelbarrow21:11
danger94833lcukn900: :)21:12
lcukn900javis which thread?21:12
javispedrolcukn900: seems that noteslate guys updated website but no shipping and no new shipping date21:12
danger94833i figure the n900 .. 1320*3.7V = 4.88Wh .. so id get about 10 charges worth.21:12
DocScrutinizer~dict wheelbarrow21:13
infobotDictionary 'wheelbarrow' (2): a cart for carrying small loads; has handles and one or more wheels  ;; \Wheel"bar`row\, n. A light vehicle for conveying small loads. It has two handles and one wheel, and is rolled by a single person. [1913 Webster].21:13
javispedrolcukn900: the abill_uk Nokia release source thread:
lcukn900javis i still wonder if the os will match.  i know some softwre that will suit it though21:13
DocScrutinizerdanger94833: writing on the bat says 4.9, so yes21:13
danger94833omg it displays21:14
danger94833i had to use a calculator21:14
danger94833(wasnt aware of the equation)21:14
javispedrolcukn900: more worried whether they'll ship at all.21:14
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lcukn900javis find out if the hardware exists and with some help will try and put real handwritten UX on it21:15
DocScrutinizerthough due to efficiency loss you'll not get 10 charges out of 50Wh21:16
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danger948338-9? :p21:18
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* DocScrutinizer idly wonders about the kill-factor of harmattan HE to fremantle, and silently hopes for it to never ship21:19
DocScrutinizerdanger94833: 8 sounds reasonable21:19
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DocScrutinizerETA for N900_goes_psycho on YT: 133min21:21
danger94833thats insane :) should never run out of battery :P21:22
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Based on previous HE's; Harmattan HE won't be what kills Fremantle.21:26
JaffaDocScrutinizer: It'll be all the people with clue getting Harmattan devices and not working on N900s anymore that'll kill Fremantle.21:26
JaffaEspecially if the dev device/consumer device split is real - and devs can get the devices with a keyboard.21:26
DocScrutinizerthat's exactly what I referred to21:27
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DocScrutinizercouldn't think of any better way to kill maemo for good21:27
lcukn900if the qt apps are strong maemo  as an upstream ux/app provider to meego/harmattan is still practical21:28
JaffaI thought the "HE" stood for "Hacker Edition". i.e. the backport we got of OS2007 etc.21:28
DocScrutinizerand honestly - harmattan "meego"??? c'mon what's that? is it compatible to *anything* ?  does it have any future whatsoever?21:28
javispedroit is compatible to maemo.21:29
javispedroas long as you limit yourself to non-gui apps ;)21:29
Jaffalcukn900: I'm not entirely convinced of the niceness of maintaining Fremantle/Harmattan/MeeGo/Symbian apps. Having tried it for something as simple as Attitude.21:29
ShadowJKMeeGo compatibility, where MeeGo == QT, I think :-)21:29
lcukn900jaffa you did not try to maintain it, you rewrote it21:30
lcukn900big difference.21:30
lcukn900look at venemo, he has 1 codebase for qt, one app, available on everything from n8x0 n900 maemo meego ubuntu windows and probably a few i forgot21:31
lcukn900qt *CAN* do crossplatform relatively easily21:31
DocScrutinizerto me all fits nicely into Elop's masterplan to keep Nokia down21:31
javispedrolcukn900: he uses Qml?21:31
lcukn900but if you decide to rewrite it is more troublesome21:31
lcukn900your attitude had you used native qt woud be happy21:32
lcukn900javis idk he uses qt21:32
DocScrutinizerreally a Machiavellian genius, this Elop21:32
javispedroprolly QWidgets21:32
lcukn900shopper from lbt should be similar21:32
javispedroWindows 8 new default API for the "tablet mode" apps is ... HTML+Javascript21:32
javispedronot dot net, not silverlight.21:33
* ShadowJK has doubts about this QML thing though, python is already memory and CPU hungry.. How much heavier is QT and QML?21:33
lcukn900but using python and bindings and changing direction partway through is what yours went wrong jaffa, you  are spending more time now remaking it than just tweaking your simple lowest common denominator base code21:33
lcukn900plus it would have been marginally faster :p21:34
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lcukn900python bindings prevented attitude from running everywhere qt ran before as well, attitude on windows would be trivial21:35
DocScrutinizera pity to see Nokia shooting their own foot, then recharging and shooting the other, then asking "who's gonna help us to shoot some other peripherals, or shoot at head if you like that better"21:36
lcukn900there are other issues for sure with the direction i took, but my code runs happily on the devices i targeted and still today is happy compiling and running on n8x0 up and on meego machines21:37
javispedrolcukn900: right until they switch to wayland! ;)21:37
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lcukn900javis i have minimal x11 depenendencies and could talk easily on wayland when required21:38
danger94833lcukn900: liqbase?21:38
lcukn900remember i just used minimal footprint21:38
danger94833still code it?21:39
lcukn900infact it will probably work better on wayland21:39
javispedroI know, but your app is basically an operating system =)21:39
lcukn900i tinker and polish21:39
danger94833when is this switch to wayland happening?21:39
* DocScrutinizer hpes never21:39
lcukn900javis not really that is just the playground21:39
javispedrolcukn900: prolly not, if you use xv... x11 already does little for you.21:39
lcukn900the apps all build and run as standalone21:40
danger94833been quite out of the loop, last i heard it was still much in coding, and saw it in this linux magazine at work the other day21:40
lcukn900javis that is my point21:40
lcukn900i do not have dependencies on x11 itself really21:40
lcukn900which mag? can you scan a copy?21:41
danger94833isnt wayland very fast?21:41
javispedrowhat wayland is is very overrated.21:41
lcukn900from what i hear. yes21:41
DocScrutinizerwayland is as fast as X11 been before they added to X11 what makes it better than wayland21:41
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lcukn900faster pathway than x11 certainly21:42
DocScrutinizeronce wayland is on par with X11 feature wise, it will be as bloated and slow as X11 is now21:43
javispedroDocScrutinizer: but I bet they don't want to make it on par with X11.21:43
lcukwayland does not aim to be feature for feature compatible21:43
RST38hWayland is Havoc Pennington's wet dream of killing X11 coming true =)21:43
RST38hDoc: It will not be21:43
DocScrutinizeryou could as well strip down X11 and call it X11_lite--kicks-waylands-arse21:44
RST38hDoc: They are limiting themselves to composition only21:44
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DocScrutinizerbut I guess some L.P. alike character needs a NIH playground, so they called it wayland21:45
infoboti heard nih is \"Not Invented Here\" - a syndrome often suffered by developers and companies who tend to reinvent the wheel for no reason other than being able to put their name on it.21:46
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DocScrutinizerooops, no reply? I'm "acting erratically" once more?21:50
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javispedroit's just that ranting on wayland is boring when there are no wayland fans around ;)21:51
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* merlin1991 wonders why X doesn't do what opengl did21:54
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, pong21:54
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: nm, liked to ask you about YT, but I managed to handle that - even without getting allergic shock21:55
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DocScrutinizeractually with my age old google account still around, it was easy21:56
Jaffalcuk: I'm talking about the QML port of Attitude.21:56
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Jaffalcuk: This is an app with no widgets, remember. But having a single codebase which works on MeeGo/Maemo/Harmattan/Symbian is already tricky.21:57
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MohammadAGWhat's Attitude?22:00
* javispedro hits MohammadAG22:01
MohammadAGGraduating tomorrow :D22:01
javispedroMohammadAG: on what?22:01
MohammadAGjavispedro, high school22:02
javispedrogood job :)22:02
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DocScrutinizergood luck, MohammadAG22:03
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DocScrutinizerhope to find you working for your CS bachelor soon, smashing maemo/meego to pieces and rebuilding it to sth better ;-)22:05
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MohammadAGThanks DocScrutinizer :D22:06
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DocScrutinizerbut wait, there's probably no making a living in that, so better find sth *real* for your future22:07
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DocScrutinizeras my colleague used to say: "there are so many nice professions: Butcher, baker, bricklayer - just me moron had to insist in messing with computers"22:10
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javispedrowhy does everyone tell everyone else their career sucks?22:11
jacekowskiyou know what, friend electrician told me that sometimes on a good day he can do as much as i do in a week22:11
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: but but .. it's fun?22:11
jacekowskibut he is self employed22:11
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: at least that friend of mine reasoned about his own career22:12
javispedros/their career sucks/his own career sucks/22:13
DocScrutinizersometimes I feel like him22:13
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DocScrutinizerand yeah, you inevitably face those moments when dealing ith entities like Siemens22:14
javispedroeither way, enough with career talk, it's depressing. let's continue bashing wayland.22:15
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DocScrutinizerwho tell you "meh, CIM isn't anything more than moving around some data records, so please do it in COBOL, as we (the clerks) know to read that"22:15
MohammadAG<DocScrutinizer> as my colleague used to say: "there are so many nice professions: Butcher, baker, bricklayer - just me moron had to insist in messing with computers"22:15
MohammadAGwhat's wrong with CS/CE/EE?22:16
DocScrutinizersee above :-)22:16
javispedronothing wrong with cobol..22:17
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DocScrutinizercoding a CIM for a 100 engines 700 workers fab, with automated transport systems and all, in *COBOL*...22:17
DocScrutinizeryou're sometimes starting to wonder... "baker maybe?"22:17
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: yeah, and the 30% assembler we needed to interface all the machines were mere fun22:18
DocScrutinizerbut admittedly doing the aggregating over the production records to give statistics was a charm in COBOL22:19
* danger94833 wonders how many more years in IT he needs before he understands what was just said :)22:21
DocScrutinizerand I had a nice task to develop a data dictionary tool to unify datatypes across the whole project, for the include files to COBOL22:21
DocScrutinizercalled COPY elements22:22
DocScrutinizeralas on cobol copy elements can't include copy elements, so you got a problem there22:22
DocScrutinizerautomating a fab22:22
jacekowskiwell, biggest problem is having whole thing described and understand the process22:23
* danger94833 believes 10 years. 22:23
jacekowskicoding it later on is easy part22:23
jacekowskiis knowing what to code is hard22:23
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jacekowskiand sometimes people think that it's simple when it isn't22:24
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jacekowskilike when i was doing fuel transfer system for some site that runs on red diesel and cooking oil22:25
jacekowskiwhere you have like 12 different valves + output breaker states22:26
jacekowski+ what is generator supposed to be doing22:26
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, lucky you having cobol22:26
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: it's simple to say "we are using YYYYMMDDHHMMSSss for *all* timestamps and durations in our project", but it is kinda difficult to make that happen in a correct way, when you are using COBOL to implement your program22:26
jacekowskiit took like 3h to draw how whole thing is supposed to operate22:26
jacekowskibecause it should never generate on red diesel22:27
ShadowJKstuff here is all in Ladder. I had never heard of it before. It was like discovering a bunch of stoneage people bashing rocks together. Good thing I dont have to touch that shit :-)22:27
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jacekowskiShadowJK: ladder logic is nice thing22:27
jacekowskiShadowJK: as long as it's not some limited implementation22:27
ShadowJKjacekowski, touchscreen guis?22:27
jacekowskiShadowJK: done that22:28
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jacekowskiShadowJK: i've done B&R screens that were meant to be programmed in C from beggining22:28
jacekowskiShadowJK: but later on to make some people happy they added ladder logic22:28
jacekowskiShadowJK: very poorly implemented22:28
jacekowskithere are some screens that you can see that were designed for ladder logic from begginging22:29
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jacekowskiand it's completly different thing22:29
jacekowskibecause then it looks bit more like designing ICs22:30
jacekowskinot exactly like that22:30
jacekowskibut you get some functional blocks22:30
jacekowskimath functions22:30
jacekowskilogic functions22:30
jacekowskiand you get some sad implementations that can do nothing22:31
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lcukJaffa, does it work on your n900?22:32
jacekowskiShadowJK: but ladder logic is meant mostly for EEs22:33
jacekowskiShadowJK: as it's supposed to look like physical relays22:33
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jacekowskiShadowJK: but thing is, good EE will not have big problem learning normal programming language22:34
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DocScrutinizerI know similar crap under the name of STEPS5/722:35
jacekowskidone that22:35
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DocScrutinizerdisgusting stuff22:35
jacekowskiagain, simatics were never meant for ladder logic22:36
DocScrutinizerlike playing with LEGO and always missing the stone with 7 nipples22:36
DocScrutinizerwe had to do a lot of interfacing to simatic SPS5 back when we coded that COBOL CIM22:37
lcukDocScrutinizer, lego bricks generall have an even number of nobbles22:37
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lcukand they were never described as nipples22:37
DocScrutinizerthose guys always were terribly nervous and depressed22:38
DocScrutinizerlcuk: excuse my French :-)22:39
ShadowJKit's actually Simatics at work..22:39
jacekowskibut siemens is german22:40
jacekowskiso you can't expect too much22:40
jacekowskii really like hitachi PLCs22:40
dm8tbrno it's siemens, that's worse than german22:40
jacekowskiand yokogawa22:40
ShadowJKalso some amount of actual crankshaft+notches+switches+relays :)22:42
ShadowJKSometimes forming part of plc program...22:43
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DocScrutinizerlag: 27s22:43
* ShadowJK yawns22:43
DocScrutinizerI hate javascript based file uploaders - no way to manage bandwidth22:43
ShadowJKWhen's N950 coming out, will we get keyboard or not :(22:44
DocScrutinizerand while I got a downstream of like 1Mb actually idling, I am waiting for webpages to open until connections time out22:44
javispedronever and no22:44
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, I used to use iptables to rate limit uploads and downloads22:45
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: actually a bit tricky when your uploader is a javascript crap in a youtube webpage22:46
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DocScrutinizerI mean - how would I prioritize other web pages over that one?22:47
nox-youd prioritize acks22:48
nox-and maybe limit upload bw22:48
DocScrutinizeror simply write a job that sigstop's that process every other second ;-D22:49
DocScrutinizerlag: 7s22:49
DocScrutinizeri've no problems with it eating up 100% of one of my 2 cores, but the congestion of upstream is a PITA22:50
DocScrutinizer77% ETA 44min22:51
nox-anything interesting you're putting on youtube? :)22:51
SpeedEvilI vaguely recall thatyou can do that with net filtering22:52
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nox-yeah as i said22:52
nox-ack prio22:52
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: you prioritise traffic with smaller queue22:52
DocScrutinizerthe N900_going_psycho movie I took last night22:52
GeneralAntillesShadowJK: I think we may be getting both.22:52
GeneralAntillesSupposedly the one sans keyboard has better specs for some reason, though. :\22:52
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SpeedEviljacekowski: Or you rate limit all outgoing http to x22:52
jacekowskinot universal enough22:53
SpeedEvilSmaller queue doesnt' always help22:53
nox-what did you do to the poor device doc? :)22:53
* DocScrutinizer starts feeling sick when pondering GAN900 news22:53
GAN900Nokia iz dum22:53
SpeedEvilIf you have a transfer to a low RTT hose, and one to a far RTT host, the far RTT will starve - even if you proritise on queue lengths.22:54
DocScrutinizernox-: MEEE? I did nothing - is what Bart Simpson said22:54
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* DocScrutinizer curses on not finding a EU standard sized plastic straw for his new charger hack22:57
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ruskieeu standard sized???22:58
ruskiethat exist?22:58
DocScrutinizeranother field McD ruined ;-)22:58
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DocScrutinizerruskie: I'm just calling the old-school straws like that22:59
DocScrutinizerthose with ~2.5mm diameter22:59
DocScrutinizeryou hardly find them anywhere nowadays22:59
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ShadowJKyeah, rate linit http to ip x where x is the destination for your big uoload23:00
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DocScrutinizerthat's easy but needs realtime config23:01
DocScrutinizeras I got nfc about x23:01
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ShadowJKGeneralAntilles, ah the usual Nokia piss-off-users, uh, I mean "segmentation"? :)23:02
DocScrutinizerI *might* do this if YT upload server has same IP all the time and I'd do that stuff frequently23:02
GAN900Product timing, I guess.23:02
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, yeah obviously only worth it for multihour uploads where you manually check netstat to find the connection and manually create iptables rules to ratelimit23:02
rm_workGAN900: what's up? some news?23:03
GAN900rm_work, nothing exciting.23:03
* rm_work goes back to his corner23:03
* DocScrutinizer ponders a nice shower23:04
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: BSP! Nokia, gimme BSP and take your OS and eat it23:05
* ShadowJK hopes for wifi roaming23:06
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DocScrutinizerlinux community never been in need of manufacturers to deliver their crap with working OS23:06
DocScrutinizeralas that'S a bit of FOSS Nokia never got the catch of23:06
DocScrutinizernot even with meego where they really had the chance to go for BSP_only policy23:08
DocScrutinizerinstead of a decent BSP they now come up with this "meego" harmattan HE abomination23:09
DocScrutinizeranother missed opportunity to do the *right* thing and *not* shoot your own foot23:10
* DocScrutinizer really wonders what makes Nokia think they got the know how to build a decent OS, from "scratch"23:11
DocScrutinizereven more, what makes them think anybody really wants them to do that23:11
lcukDocScrutinizer, technically it is possible23:12
lcukbecause didn't one single Finn choose to do exactly that about 30 years ago23:13
ruskie30 years ago?23:14
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DocScrutinizerand I guess nowadays the drivers coming from BSPs and those created by community by RE are 50/5023:14
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DocScrutinizerhonestly, Nokia missed a opportunity when they dropped (or never even thought of) shipping their devices with $random_proprietary_OS (sybian / wincrap) *plus* a decent linux BSP, maybe including a barebones FOSS dialer implementation23:20
DocScrutinizerwhy ICD2  ?23:21
DocScrutinizerwhy location_lib?23:21
DocScrutinizerwhy blobs for calendar and dialer and whatnot?23:21
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ShadowJKicd at the time was probably sensible because nm wasn't working and the nm authors were outright hostile to patches23:23
DocScrutinizerall just cruft born from the idea they need to ship their hw with a shiny working full fledged linux OS. Drop that idea, ship with WinP7 plus a linux BSP23:23
DocScrutinizergive support to linux community when they run into problems on porting their stuff to Nokia hw. everybody happy, and for sure we'd be way further with that concept being followed back on rise of N900 than we are now with fremantle just another 50% blobs release23:26
DocScrutinizerand next OS from Nokia quite likely is the same again23:26
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DocScrutinizerwhere "next OS" == harmattan "meego"23:27
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DocScrutinizerdarn, I forgot to copy SpeedEvil 's golden statement about maemo and what it looks like23:29
DocScrutinizerit quite suggests why things weren't done that way sketched above23:29
DocScrutinizerboard support package, goole linux bsp23:30
ruskieso basically drivers?23:30
DocScrutinizerwindows worls calls that "driver cd"23:30
ruskieand a way to boot it I guess23:30
ruskieyeah that could actually work better23:31
DocScrutinizerETA 3min \o/23:32
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DocScrutinizersome lengthy YT upload that eats my DSL bandwidth and makes surfing a PITA23:34
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* ruskie is downloading the welcome back stuff from psn23:36
DocScrutinizer  hmmm23:38
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RST38hNokia at 6.6623:45
RST38hAh, the magic of the numbers...23:45
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jacekowskigoing up or down?23:45
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DocScrutinizerthe've seen my video and the *awesome* things you can encounter with Nokia devices :-)23:52
ShadowJKTelling users/customers that symbian is dead man walking was a brilliant move ;P23:52
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DocScrutinizerhonestly I like the music part the best, I never even knew this song been on that device (I don't even know the song)23:57
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