IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2011-05-30

* MoonTiger just figured out the make clean thing00:00
lcuklol MoonTiger00:03
MoonTigerseriously... its amazing what you learn when you rtfm00:03
MoonTigeri never do ... i just jump in and start modifying code00:03
dangergrrli wish i had time to spend playing with code00:03
MoonTigernever really learn the tools and such from basics00:03
MoonTigerdangergrrl, i dont have a lot of time but my gf is away and its the weekend00:04
dangergrrli have to go try to lift an 800lb motorcycle instead00:04
dangergrrlwell, i will be able to in a day or two00:04
dangergrrli have an oil leak and some superficial parts to mount00:04
dangergrrlradiator shroud bottom cover etc00:05
dangergrrlneed to look at where the oil is leaking from00:05
MoonTigereeesh sounds like fun00:06
MoonTigerwhat bike is it?00:06
MoonTigera harley right00:06
dangergrrlworking on a gold wing is not fun00:06
MoonTigerthe bike with a reverse gear00:06
dangergrrlthey have plastic covering everything00:06
dangergrrli bet an electraglide would not be fun either00:06
* MoonTiger now understand make install too00:06
MoonTigermy last bike was a R100:07
dangergrrlactually the starter motor runs the reverse on mine00:07
dangergrrlthe new ones have airbags00:07
MoonTigerairbags? on a bike??00:07
dangergrrlwell, the plan is for some major touring00:07
* MoonTiger goes back to makefiles00:07
dangergrrliǘe seen the crash test videos00:08
dangergrrlthey help00:08
dangergrrli think the canam spyder has engine powered reverse00:08
dangergrrlbut itś like auto transmission00:08
dangergrrlso glad i did not get a 500cc vespa00:09
MoonTigerdo they make vespas at 500cc00:09
dangergrrlstill cvt00:09
dangergrrland flat floor in front of the seat00:09
dangergrrlno shifting00:10
dangergrrlbut i bet they are still pretty fun00:10
MoonTigerwouldnt work for me00:10
dangergrrlnot as fun as a bike with manual transmission00:10
MoonTigeri like kicking up and down the gears00:10
dangergrrlme too00:10
MoonTigeri have the clutch mark on all my boots00:11
dangergrrli tried a dirt bike on the streets around campus in college00:11
dangergrrlfell and scraped the crap out of my ankle00:11
MoonTigera real dirt bike?00:11
MoonTigeri rode one near moses lake in washington state for a day or two ... was real fun but scarey00:12
MoonTigerthey have some wicked dunes there00:12
dangergrrlwaited almost 30 years to ride again00:13
dangergrrlgot a dui that night on account of my banged up ankle and spinning my tired on a wet road at a stop light00:13
dangergrrl(in my car, not the dirt bike which was illegal on the streets)00:13
dangergrrli was sober tbh00:13
dangergrrlbut i had an empty vidka bottle in my back seat00:13
MoonTigeramerica is so retarded for the open containe laws00:13
dangergrrlwell it was in houston we were riding it on roads near uni of houston00:13
MoonTigertexas is even worse00:13
dangergrrltexas open container outside a vehicle is legal00:14
dangergrrlmost cities00:14
dangergrrlyou can walk to 7-11 and buy a beer and drink it walking home00:14
MoonTigerim glad i left there now :) back to the land(s) of the sane00:14
dangergrrlbut they nail people for public intoxication00:14
dangergrrlsometimes just for being mexican00:15
dangergrrlor gay or black00:15
dangergrrlbut they can charge anyone at any time for PI00:16
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dangergrrlmy boots have a pad for the shifter00:16
MoonTigerlcuk ... makefiles have recursive variables ffs!00:16
lcukMoonTiger, ?00:16
dangergrrlisn'that normal?00:16
MoonTigerthey have recursive variables ... wtf?00:17
MoonTigeri never heard of a recursive variable before00:17
* MoonTiger shakes head00:17
dangergrrlautomake does that00:17
MoonTigerthats what im learning00:17
dangergrrlwait itś conditionally defined and recurses more than once?00:17
dangergrrlwhat does meego use for init?00:19
dangergrrli know i saw upstart roll by in the maemo sdk00:19
DocScrutinizerupstart aka initctl (?) for maemo, nfc about meego00:19
dangergrrlsystemd would give faster boot times00:20
wmaroneit does use systemd00:20
dangergrrlbut i think is a bad idea00:20
MoonTigerchrist ... jquery, php and now makefiles ... all using the $ *sigh*00:20
dangergrrlso there are no shell scripts?00:20
DocScrutinizerUUUAERGHH, it's a lennart poettering thing00:20
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MoonTigerthis is fun ... lots of stuff is becoming clear00:20
wmaroneone sec00:20
wmarone1.2 is on Upstart, going forward they're moving to systemd00:20
merlin1991trunk is systemd already00:21
dangergrrlwhy not extend busybox instead?00:21
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DocScrutinizeronly when there L.P. on the outside, you *know* there's ****inside ;-P00:21
dangergrrlmake it into initsh00:21
wmaronebecause it's busybox00:21
dangergrrlwell systemd claims faster boot times00:22
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: were does your L.P. hate come from? :D00:22
dangergrrlpartially due to less forking00:22
DocScrutinizeryou're ASKING?00:23
dangergrrlwe can have less forking in sh scripts if we put more in busybox00:23
andre__DocScrutinizer, I'm very sorry for you that your pulseaudio integration was screwed up by the packager of your distribution and that you know target the wrong person for your problems. Not.00:23
DocScrutinizerpukeaudio: L.P.    avahi: L.P.   systemd: L.P.00:23
wmaronedangergrrl: one of the main things with meego is moving away from busybox (and all of its crippled facilities)00:23
dangergrrlbut why not turn busybox or even ash or gads bash00:24
dangergrrlinto initsh00:24
DocScrutinizerandre__: PA been screwed up on every system I've seen so far, INCL maemo00:24
wmaronewhat's bad about systemd, anyway?00:24
dangergrrland integrate most of the things that init needs00:24
DocScrutinizerNIH shit00:24
andre__DocScrutinizer, not really. :)00:24
dangergrrlwmarone: booting is no longer hackable using traditional unix skills00:25
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: i see the point about pa, have nfc about avahi, but don't see why systemd is evil00:25
dangergrrlinit is very simple00:25
DocScrutinizerwhy do we need systemd when we can improve/augment upstart?00:25
dangergrrlall of booting is configurable by editing text files00:25
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dangergrrlmost of it is implemented in text files00:26
DocScrutinizerwhy do we need PA while ALSA just works fine00:26
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: same reason as PA00:26
dangergrrlwhy not find ways to make that faster without changing itś face?00:26
DocScrutinizerand WTF do we need avahi for at all?00:26
andre__yes, and why don't we just stay in the 70es and want no progress at all? why this internet thingy at all?00:26
andre__letters also worked fine for me! I don't need this for my limited usecases!00:27
DocScrutinizerALSA is evidently *better* than PA00:27
dangergrrli have not come up against avahi00:27
jacekowskipulseaudio has less features than alsa00:27
andre__assuming that BS refers to what you've written: cool that you realize00:27
jacekowskiand it's slower00:27
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: exactly00:27
dangergrrlpulseaudio has not given my trouble on the n90000:28
jacekowskiit's just a buggy fucked up frontend for alsa00:28
dangergrrlon my pc it fails a lot00:28
jacekowskidangergrrl: except using up 50% of cpu00:28
dangergrrljacekowski: haven't caught that00:28
andre__"DVDs have this default disclaimer at the beginning. I can't skip that by fast forward! That's why I prefer VHS tapes!"00:28
andre__oh yesh.00:28
DocScrutinizersince avahi I got issues on my networks I never had vefore, while I've never seen any benefit00:28
dangergrrljacekowski: on my pc it starts giving my audio odd harmonics after a while00:29
DocScrutinizerand for systemd... ohmy00:29
dangergrrland it gets worse with time00:29
dangergrrli read the paper on systemd00:29
jacekowskiandre__: dvd has some measurable quality improvements00:29
jacekowskiandre__: pa is based on same alsa00:29
andre__nox-, hehe, had that one in mind, yes :)00:29
dangergrrli think he answers many of the right questions the wrong way00:29
jacekowskiandre__: and it's just another layer of complexity00:29
nox-andre__, :)00:29
andre__jacekowski, well... that's very generalizing and partially wrong00:30
dangergrrli am about to have only a n900 to work on for a while00:30
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dangergrrlit it possible to make a user maintained maemo+upstart for >1.2?00:31
jacekowskiandre__: name one thing that PA is giving me or anybody00:31
jacekowskiandre__: that alsa couldn't00:31
dangergrrljacekowski: redirection over ip00:31
jacekowskipositive thing to be precise00:31
jacekowskialsa can do that00:31
DocScrutinizeraudio over TCP ;-P00:31
dangergrrlbut i can not get it to work00:31
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jacekowskidangergrrl: alsa has drivers for that as well00:31
dangergrrlalsa can do tcp by itself?00:31
dangergrrlthen what does pulse do besides break?00:32
DocScrutinizeralso, do you think more tha 0.0001% of users need this?00:32
jacekowskithere is virtual sound card driver00:32
jacekowskithat does that and some other stuff00:32
andre__jacekowski, errm, e.g. applications that don't block the audio hardware anymore? (except for crappy closed flash maybe)00:32
jacekowskiandre__: emm00:33
jacekowskiandre__: alsa does that as well00:33
DocScrutinizerand always did00:34
andre__that's news to me compared to last time I checked this whole PA debate (probably a year ago)00:34
DocScrutinizerthat's been news to L.P. as well00:34
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jacekowskiandre__: dmix was added to alsa in 199900:35
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DocScrutinizerBUT BUT, PA can do >>per app volume<< pffff
andre__ah, since alsa 1.0.900:36
jacekowskiandre__: no00:37
jacekowskiandre__: since alsa 0.0.900:37
jacekowskiandre__: for 12 years now00:37
andre__"For ALSA 1.0.9rc2 and higher you don't need to setup dmix for analogue output"00:37
andre__according to
DocScrutinizeryeah hoe TERRIBLE00:37
andre__DocScrutinizer, +100:38
DocScrutinizerbefore you had to get a def for dmix in /etc/asoundrc00:38
dangergrrlalsa can not do per app mixing?00:38
jacekowskiandre__: since 1.0.9rc2 dmix is enabled by default00:38
jacekowskidangergrrl: yes it can00:38
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DocScrutinizerdangergrrl: see my link!!00:38
dangergrrlthen why does anyone need pulse?00:38
DocScrutinizernobody needs this sh*t00:39
jacekowskidangergrrl: nobody needs it00:39
jacekowskidangergrrl: that's the thing00:39
andre__I like it.00:39
dangergrrlthen i suppose i am running gentoo with the sabayon overlay and USE=-pulse then00:40
dangergrrlwhen i find the bandwidth00:40
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DocScrutinizerok, when "I like it" was the last argument for PA, then00:41
DocScrutinizerdone, what's next00:41
jacekowskiand besides, pulse forces you to do software mixing even if your HW can do HW mixing00:42
jacekowskiand my sound blaster can do full HW mixing00:42
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: good point00:42
andre__DocScrutinizer: I consider "I like it" slightly less childish and more argumentative then kids writing "nobody needs this sh*t"00:42
DocScrutinizerwell, bot is a statement. The relative relevance for the world though is obviously different00:43
andre__hehe, agreed :)00:44
DocScrutinizerand thanks for "kids", I'm feeling miuch younger now, I can use it :-D00:44
andre__you're welcome :)00:45
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, you've got PM00:46
dangergrrli somehow doubt DocScrutinizer is a kid00:47
dangergrrli do not know for sure but if he is then like WOW00:48
jacekowskiafaik he's more like 40ish00:52
dangergrrli guessed that actually00:53
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MoonTigerdo pp; really write these makefiles by hand??01:08
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MoonTigerlcuk, you still here?01:13
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MohammadAGMoonTiger, simple ones, yes01:17
MoonTigerMohammadAG, it makes sense now that i look at how they are made ... and the integration of pkg-confg means you dont need to mess with inc and lib paths right?01:17
MoonTigerwow that is sweet01:18
MoonTigeri think i can get the hang of this01:18
MoonTigerheh i know right? welcome to the 1990's party moon01:19
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lcukMoonTiger, i am thinking01:24
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merlin1991anyone else in here thinking R&D means research and destroy?01:34
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merlin1991SpeedEvil: R&D mode on the device, some sources say that's research and develop mode, but imo it's research and destroy :P01:35
infobotDocScrutinizer: infobot joined!01:35
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MoonTigernight all :)01:39
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NIN101I love the read poettering bashing01:39
cityligh1swhere to find morning breakfast open at 7?01:42
cityligh1show can I even ask google?01:42
DocScrutinizerhere. If it were 7o here. Alas it's shortly after midnight and I'll have a hard time finding breakfast *now*01:43
DocScrutinizernevertheless I have to try... o/01:44
cityligh1swell as you maybe from munchen...01:44
cityligh1ss/maybe/may ba/01:45
infobotcityligh1s meant: well as you may ba from munchen...01:45
compengidoes anyone use maemo sdk on ubuntu 11.04 64bit?01:47
* MohammadAG raises hand01:47
compengiMohammadAG, how did you install it?01:48
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MohammadAGcompengi, carried it over from Ubuntu 10.10, why?01:54
MohammadAGI installed it on some other PC running Natty iirc01:54
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MacerMohammadAG: i couldn't get it working in natty01:57
MohammadAGwhat errors did you get?01:58
Maceri dont remember... i just use the vm01:58
Macerwhich runs an ancient ver of ubuntu01:58
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MohammadAG8.10 I think01:59
Macerthe sdk needs to be fixed... can the cssu people fix it?01:59
MohammadAGcan't fix it if I don't know what's broken01:59
MohammadAGI mean, it works fine for me, and I guided a friend through it the other day and it worked01:59
Macerupdating the install scripts for more modern linux would help01:59
MacerMohammadAG: do you have a wiki on how to do it?02:01
infobotmethinks maemosdk is
Macertried that. install script doesnt work02:01
Macerkeeps dying out when newgrp02:02
MohammadAGthe script or the GUI?02:02
Macerand then it tries to do the pkg install02:02
Macerthe script02:02
Macerdpkg always gives out errors02:02
Macerit downloads the debs02:02
Macerthen tries to install and gives a million dep errors02:02
MohammadAGsudo error I guess02:03
MohammadAGI remember that on 10.04 but not 11.0402:03
Macerthe user i am installing for is in sudoers02:03
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Macerbut yeah... that is the problem i am having installing on my natty box so i use the vm02:04
Maceri need to learn how to make debs02:04
Macerbut i kind of lost my thunder for it all as i felt like pulling out my teeth with installing the sdk02:05
Macernot to mention using a vm hinders the speed02:05
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MohammadAGMacer, no, I meant the problem is related to sudoers in scratchbox02:07
Macerwell.. once the script goes.. it goes02:07
Macerthe target is created and it goes on auto pilot02:07
Macerso am i supposed to finish with the error and go into the sb target and fix /etc/sudoers and try to apt-get everything?02:08
Macerwell... that is what needs fixing ;)02:09
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MohammadAGMacer, no, you should fix that before the script even starts02:16
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cehtehfind: unrecognized: -exec03:58
cehtehbusybox crap03:58
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils04:00
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* SpeedEvil posts 'where can I download the linux 3 kernel with android support' on TMO.05:32
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DocScrutinizerapt-get install findutils-gnu05:35
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# echo $PATH05:36
* DocScrutinizer idly ponders /usr/local optification05:38
DocScrutinizeralso general optification sanitizing:05:41
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/|wc -l05:41
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/|grep lrwx|wc -l05:41
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/|grep -v lrwx05:42
DocScrutinizerinsgesamt 12405:42
DocScrutinizer-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18680 2010-04-21 12:14 cmp05:42
DocScrutinizer-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 61316 2010-04-21 12:14 diff05:42
DocScrutinizer-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18960 2010-04-21 12:14 diff305:42
DocScrutinizer-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root    43 2010-03-19 22:50 rgrep05:42
DocScrutinizer-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18204 2010-04-21 12:14 sdiff05:42
DocScrutinizerthat's *sick*05:43
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infobotmethinks optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence305:44
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infobotfrom memory, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot305:48
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DocScrutinizeryou really should have a look at - how can it be Nokia managed to put binaries into /usr/bin that are clearly needed *before* /usr gets mounted, and then - instead of doing the right thing and just move the binary from /usr/bin to /bin - they come up with this optification abomination ""because we need some of the binaries of /usr/bin to exist on rootfs"" ::mad::05:54
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DocScrutinizerit the most nobe duty of a distro maintainer to sort such things out in a *sane* way05:55
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DocScrutinizernot to go "ohmy, developer of foo pkg decided to install it to /usr/bin/foo. We need it during boot, so let's invent this optification chimera crack nightmare05:58
DocScrutinizerbest thing of some Nokia departments must have been their drug dealer ;-P05:59
DocScrutinizerI was hoping for a clear cut to clean this up on PR1.2, then again on PR1.3 - now it's clear they love it the way it is, and this is one of the batshit crazy things of maemo that never is going to change again for the better06:04
DocScrutinizerunless we roll it up again in CSSU06:05
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin|wc -l06:07
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin|grep lrwx|wc -l06:07
DocScrutinizer= ~390 pkg NOT optified in /usr/bin06:09
DocScrutinizeruseless effort06:10
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DocScrutinizerjust a last word, in case there's been something not as utterly clear as it should've been: this rationale applies to ALL /usr/*06:12
DocScrutinizerI.E. /usr has to be a mountpoint, nothing else06:13
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DocScrutinizerusr = Unix Sharable Resources06:23
DocScrutinizersharable implies it might not be available on local machine all the time, as it's shared from elsewhere06:23
DocScrutinizerso even the name *implies* it's a mountpoint06:24
Sc0rpiusI've been using Unix since like 1979 and I never knew usr meant that06:24
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DocScrutinizeryou got a better definition of what this TLA means?06:25
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Sc0rpiusnot even there it says usr means that06:28
DocScrutinizerno, it just says "shareable"06:28
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DocScrutinizerit's actually not easy to spot exactly where it came from06:28
DocScrutinizermight also be "unix/shareable/readonly" or whatever06:29
DocScrutinizerI've heard the Unix-Shareable-resources explanation though06:29
Sc0rpiuswould you buy an N9 if it comes with MeeGo?06:29
Sc0rpiusand those 64 GB and dual 1GHz processor?06:29
SpeedEvil'MeeGo' is a hard definition.06:29
DocScrutinizerprolly not06:30
SpeedEvilIt seems likely that what it will come with is nokias fork of meego, as it forked 12 months ago or so.06:30
DocScrutinizera) meego handset-UX is premature06:30
SpeedEvilWith some maemo bits jammed in.06:30
DocScrutinizerb) this device for sure comes with a capacitive touchscreen06:30
Sc0rpiusand you want a resistive screen?06:31
DocScrutinizerevery single day, yes06:31
Sc0rpiusN900 is resistive?06:31
Sc0rpiusbut not multitouch06:31
derfI'd like to be able to touch _one_ spot accurately, before I worry about more than one.06:32
Sc0rpiusI just care it supports multitouch06:32
DocScrutinizera) mt is worthless without proper integration into OS , and b) resistive can do mt as well06:32
Sc0rpiuslike the N806:32
Sc0rpiusN8 is capacitive?06:32
Sc0rpiusbecause that's the screen I like06:32
Sc0rpiusI have a friend that has an N8 and the screen is really gorgeous and responsive, and it's multitouch06:33
Sc0rpiusbut the bad news would be what SpeedEvil said that the Meego it has is a weird Nokia's fork of it06:33
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Sc0rpiusyeah N8 is capacitive just checked.06:34
DocScrutinizermy laptop is not multitouch, so given the paradigm my smartphone should be as much like a normal PC as possible, I'd probably not even *want* mt06:34
Sc0rpiusN900 is heavy and bulky.  If N9 comes around the thickness and lightness of an N8, I'd think about buying one06:35
SpeedEvilIt sounds like - from what I've heard - that the N9 or whatever it's called - has been around at least in prototype form for 9 months or so.06:35
DocScrutinizerI want a screen though that I can operate with toothpicks, styli, fingernail, biker gloves06:35
Sc0rpiusyou need a finger for capacitive, like (btw) the touchpad of your laptop!06:36
SpeedEvilI'm not sure about the state of the software.06:36
* SpeedEvil uses trackpoints exclusvely.06:36
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you'd be happy with the Samsung Omnia - it has an inverted otical mouse06:37
DocScrutinizerquite nifty06:37
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DocScrutinizerkinda feels like a apple-mouse micro-trackball06:40
DocScrutinizerjust solid-state06:40
SpeedEvilI meant to look at implementing that ages ago on a hp uipad thingy06:41
SpeedEvilwith finger-reader06:42
DocScrutinizerI just can't get used to it, for a pointer device06:43
DocScrutinizerit's somewhat anti-natural06:43
DocScrutinizersame with trackpoints06:44
DocScrutinizeractually trackpoints are even worse, like F'06:45
SpeedEvilI tend to use my keyboard under the blankets, so using a trackpoint is great.06:45
DocScrutinizernext step to drive me mad: make the cursor ballistic, so you can accelerate it and them have to decelerate aka "break" it06:46
DocScrutinizerthat's F'' then06:46
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DocScrutinizerI want to *move* my hand to move the cursor. I don't like spinning wheels or rolling balls or remote controlling this spinning of wheels (trackpoint), to move the cursor where it belongs. Basically the less chance you have to operate the cursor 'blindly' (without constant feedback from screen) the less ergonomic the HID06:51
SpeedEvilsleep now. Night!06:51
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DocScrutinizernight SpeedEvil06:51
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DocScrutinizernice test: try drawing a circle with a trackball or a trackpoint. Try even writing06:53
DocScrutinizernow try it with your eyes closed ;-D06:55
DocScrutinizerdo same with a mouse, a touchscreen, a digitizer tablet06:55
DocScrutinizeryou'll get my point06:56
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DocScrutinizerSc0rpius: (multitouch) see
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DocScrutinizerTHAT is a really good touchscreen07:09
DocScrutinizerand *precise*07:09
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DocScrutinizerworks with all touching objects, not just fingers and wiener sausages, like capacitive ;-)07:10
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krayonDocScrutinizer: I was beginning to think I was the only person not drooling and getting excited by all the capacitive screen devices :P07:45
DocScrutinizerindeed you can start to feel somewhat depressed when listening to the general public. Here's a realm of r-ts fans though07:46
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slonopotamushmm... new cssu says it will "upgrade" qt from 4.7.2 to 4.7.0. how's that?08:07
slonopotamuslibqt4-dbus (4.7.2~git20110302-0maemo2+cssu2 => 4.7.0~git20100909-0maemo1+0cssu1)08:07
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DocScrutinizerqt4.7.2 is borked - we downgrade to 4.7.0 with patches backported08:29
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DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: ^^^08:30
slonopotamusokay, but why it says it is an upgrade then? and didn't you say one cannot do downgrades with apt?08:30
DocScrutinizerdon't ask *me*08:31
DocScrutinizerI'm a noob to all packaging and apt things08:31
DocScrutinizeractually I myself am musing how this works08:32
DocScrutinizerbut that's what MohammadAG told me some 6h ago08:33
slonopotamusthat all sounds like a dark voodoo :)08:37
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Venemogood morning!08:51
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: moo09:14
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: wake up voodoomaster! :-D09:15
Venemomoo DocScrutinizer09:15
ruskiehmm fun...09:16
DocScrutinizerruskie: ?09:16
ruskieI couldn't get a GPS lock at home no matter what I tried with either the N95 or the N90009:16
ruskieand that was on the balcony09:16
DocScrutinizerruskie: US airstrike pending, no doubt09:16
ruskienow that I'm @work inside the office... I got a lock like instantly09:16
ruskieI wonder if the bazillion wifi APs in the building have anything to do with it09:17
DocScrutinizerwifi shouldn't - wrong freq09:18
ruskiewill have to test once I get home again to see if things work09:18
DocScrutinizeryour home BTS might be messed up09:19
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DocScrutinizerI guess when rrlp can speed up GPS fixes, then it for sure can mess up GPS as well09:22
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infobotrumour has it, rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or
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ruskiewell the N95 is sim-less so I was thinking it might be that09:22
ruskiebut adding a working sim... no diff09:23
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DocScrutinizerit's questionable if rrlp works without SIM09:23
ruskiewell it should since it's supposed to be abused for emergency calls09:23
ruskieand a sim-less phone should be able to make those09:23
DocScrutinizermaybe it's also questionable if it does *with* SIM ;-P09:23
DocScrutinizerruskie: indeed, but seems this isn't actually the case at least for N90009:24
ruskieI thought it was part of the GSMA spec?09:25
DocScrutinizerI found *significant* reproducible differneces between a N900 with non-registered SIM, and a reference model without any SIM09:25
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DocScrutinizerand the issue moved together with the SIM, from DUT A to DUT B09:26
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DocScrutinizerwell, actuall in the opposite direction :-)09:26
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DocScrutinizerboth devices sitting at same place, same moment started GPS09:27
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DocScrutinizerI think a device without SIM doesn't usually communcate at all with any BTS, unless you do a 911 call09:28
DocScrutinizerno idea how the unregistered SIM comes in09:28
DocScrutinizerand LLRP is an active protocol09:29
ruskiewell I'll see again today...09:29
DocScrutinizermeans your device has to transmit09:29
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ruskieand will even try taking the n95 to a diff part of the building just to see if maybe that might be a remote posibility09:29
ruskieand I know I can get a GPS lock with any device where I was testing it last night09:29
DocScrutinizerI'd guess some random local interference spoiled your GPS09:30
ruskieit was sunset time09:30
ruskieso that might be it09:30
DocScrutinizerdon't think so09:30
DocScrutinizerit might have been a defect microwave or whatever09:31
DocScrutinizerthough those also are usually wrong frequency - not if defect maybe09:31
ruskieI'm still wondering what kind of intereference 7 wifi APs could cause09:32
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ruskieand even that probably aren't all that are in the area09:32
DocScrutinizeralso a microwave on wrong freq will as well leak like hell, as the lambda/2 seals won't work09:32
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ruskiebut wouldn't it need to be operational for that to actually occur?09:33
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DocScrutinizerwifi, like BT, and usual microwaves, have the wrong frequency for interference with GPS09:33
dm8tbrnote: anything with holes larger than lambda/10 will start to leak substantially09:33
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DocScrutinizernot lambda/2 seals :-)09:33
DocScrutinizerlook at an arbitrary modern microwave - does that lok like a SEAL?09:34
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DocScrutinizerit's just they have exactly the right dimensions so the standing wave that builds up seals the thing09:35
DocScrutinizerthe door frame that is09:35
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DocScrutinizerwhile a microwave usually seals well @ 2.4(?)GHz, it evidently didn't really stop my cellphone from working inside the closed MW-oven @ 1.8GHz09:36
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DocScrutinizer  >>Die Wellenlänge darf nicht geändert werden können, weil sonst die Resonanzdichtung des Türspaltes unwirksam wird.<<09:45
DocScrutinizersorry, the english wikipedia article is quite a bit different and not as good as the german one09:45
psycho_oreoslol I was about to say `ja das ist gut, aber ich kanst nicht sprech sie Deutsch'09:46
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DocScrutinizerit says: "the frequency must not change, otherwise the resonance seal of the gap between door and housing will fail to work correctly"09:47
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: that's why EM cells for testing have completely different seals :)09:50
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DocScrutinizeryeah, the microwave ovens of stone age also had 'real' seals, and I guess that's quite a part of why they were so expensive09:51
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DocScrutinizerruskie: nevertheless I don't see how a MW-oven rsp the magnetron in there could change its frequency09:56
ruskiewell something happened that caused issues... will see if it happens again today09:56
DocScrutinizerif it did, for some weird reason, odds are the user won't realize a difference09:56
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ruskieof course I'm not discounting that someone is running some jammer around as well09:57
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DocScrutinizereasily possible. They used to do that in Iraq all the time09:57
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ruskiewell around here I would assume it's some hobbyist09:58
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DocScrutinizermmpf, dead10:08
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dangergrrlDocScrutinizer: you read phrack?10:16
dangergrrlwere you hacking into stuff in the 80s too?10:17
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DocScrutinizerso no, I'm really no kid ;-D10:17
dangergrrlcheck out osuny10:18
dangergrrlit is ressurected10:18
DocScrutinizerat laest judging by my ID card10:18
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dangergrrli never asked your age10:20
dangergrrli guessed ~40 by context10:20
dangergrrland laughed at you called a kid10:20
dangergrrlit was funny10:20
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dangergrrli suppose you could have been a child genius and likely were10:21
dangergrrlbut if a child genius had been behind openmoko i would have heard about it10:21
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Arcueid_Phrack, huh?10:22
Arcueid_Wonder if 2600 still works somewhere.10:22
Arcueid_I still remember how I cursed the day I found out my country had switched to ccitt-7...10:22
Arcueid_I still can't believe I marched in, as a kid,10:23
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Arcueid_into the local telecom, asking people about frequencies. They bought it when I told it was about school homework.10:23
Arcueid_Vanity's still a decent exploit. Guess it'll be till kingdom come.10:24
dangergrrlmaybe in indonesia10:25
dangergrrlor nigeria10:25
dangergrrlland of scamsters10:25
dangergrrlthat web site seems true10:25
dangergrrlexploits are fun10:25
dangergrrland generally help the exploited10:25
dangergrrlif they are not morons10:25
Arcueid_Yeah, back in the day, 2600'd work in a few african countries.10:26
dangergrrlback then i exploited the heck out of primos10:26
Arcueid_Sorry, not that savvy.10:27
Arcueid_I was mostly a kid back then.10:27
dangergrrli used it to play with NASA10:27
Arcueid_Tell me more, though don't cover all the bases.10:27
Arcueid_Some researching is good.10:28
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dangergrrlit was the only phone exchange in houston you could blow off10:28
dangergrrlbut you could only pulse dial it10:29
dangergrrl713 4410:29
dangergrrlitś a NT switch now i think10:29
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Arcueid_I wouldn't know. I'm way out of the civilized world.10:29
dangergrrli think +1 713c 440 4050 is NASA information10:30
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dangergrrla voice messagwe10:30
Arcueid_I think my country never actually had operators, btw.10:30
Arcueid_It just... Inherited the system. A few switches, god he knows where in the bloody countryside,10:31
Arcueid_where people still worship trees, you know,10:31
dangergrrlin the 80s10:32
Arcueid_likely still work with standard frequencies, but honestly, don't ask me where's that.10:32
dangergrrlthere was still a plugboard in death valley ca10:32
dangergrrlthere was10:33
dangergrrland itr was a big joke10:33
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dangergrrlto ask for directory assistance10:33
dangergrrlfor death valley california10:33
dangergrrli actually got it once10:33
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dangergrrlthere were like 14 lines10:34
dangergrrlall payphones10:34
DocScrutinizerisn't it the area of those errr mormons(?) who refuse to even have electricity10:34
dangergrrlno direct dial10:34
dangergrrlmormons like electricity10:34
dangergrrland making money off sinners10:34
dangergrrlwhich i think means you and me10:34
Arcueid_Last I heard they also like same-sex companionship,10:35
Arcueid_a bit too much for their own tastes, actually.10:35
dangergrrlthe mormons excommunicated my exgirlfriend for being transsexual and cutting her balls off10:35
Arcueid_Weren't they building some sort of underground fallout shelter, or somethig?10:35
dangergrrlshe did use a doctor10:36
dangergrrlbut she was excommunicated for being trandgender10:36
DocScrutinizershe's better off that way10:36
dangergrrli do not understand her10:36
dangergrrlshe was still married to her wife as a man10:37
dangergrrland got her balls chopped and was taking estrogen and the mormon wife sis not notice10:37
dangergrrltrue story10:38
Arcueid_Doesn't ring false,10:38
dangergrrlsomeone i personally knew10:38
Arcueid_you know, most couples, especially long time ones, don't really do the work, you see.10:38
DocScrutinizernow I know for sure getting excumunicated was the best thing to happen to her10:38
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dangergrrlwell the mormons are better than other xtians in some ways but they still refuse to see truth10:39
dangergrrlwe are part of an information system10:39
dangergrrlif you want to call me that i am just a complicated program interacting on the global web to produce intelligence10:40
DocScrutinizerwe are just generation 100 or less of a somewhat beginning to see the truth biological deviation10:41
dangergrrlwhat we call sentience now is a joke10:41
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dangergrrlwe are amazing10:41
dangergrrlwe have thumbs10:42
Arcueid_Now I'm really not sure what you're talking about,10:42
dangergrrli use that one on the dogs all the time10:42
Arcueid_though you really have me hooked.10:42
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Arcueid_Please, further that.10:42
dangergrrlthe dogs would like to go outside10:42
dangergrrlthey have no thumbs10:42
dangergrrlneed a human to turn the locks and knob10:43
DocScrutinizerI'm talking about religion and human awarenes/mind/spirit/consciousness at large10:43
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dangergrrli am too10:43
dangergrrlbut is belief in the singularity religion?10:43
DocScrutinizerwe got science that earns that name at all, since like 200 years10:44
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DocScrutinizera lot of our species hasn't even realized we're on that way10:44
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dangergrrldo we need someone with thumbs to turn then next key?10:44
dangergrrldogs are clearly intelligent to an extent10:45
dangergrrlthey have motives10:45
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* Arcueid_ 's following10:45
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dangergrrlthey pursue access to outside10:46
DocScrutinizerfor a dog we're either dogs, or Gods10:46
dangergrrland access to inside10:46
dangergrrlare not dogs and gods the same10:46
dangergrrli doubt in german it makes sense10:46
DocScrutinizerfor a dog probably yes10:46
Arcueid_dangergrrl, ok, I'm following, but..10:47
Arcueid_If we're dogs, than's who's god?10:47
dangergrrlthe maddest guy i respect10:47
Arcueid_Sure, most people don't even get what's rationality, they're mostly emotional...10:47
dangergrrlsays we come from sirius10:47
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dangergrrli actually believe in panspermia10:48
Arcueid_But who's gonna let us out of the dog pen? I didn't get that.10:48
dangergrrlonly theory that makes sense10:48
dangergrrlwe are10:48
DocScrutinizerI'm kinda fan of "there is no spoon"10:48
dangergrrli know you know eris10:49
DocScrutinizerconcept of religion is strange to me10:49
dangergrrlyou have not read "Illuminatus"?10:50
dangergrrlit is a useful false abstraction10:50
dangergrrlthey try to take our toys and make us zombies10:51
Arcueid_Let's go outside of the box.10:51
dangergrrlwe fight back by increasing information10:51
Arcueid_We're all living in a world that only exists because, somewhere along the line,10:51
Arcueid_mr. Conan the Barbarian, the hyperborian,10:51
dangergrrlnow you are going to challenge my solipsism10:52
Arcueid_"Ok, so... Rather than kill every damn weakling my way, what if I make them work for me?"10:52
Arcueid_So, society was born.10:52
DocScrutinizer"dear Mr God, in the instruction manual we clearly advices users of our simulation >Universe< *not* to turn the afinity parameters of rhibonukleoid acids above the level of 45. You mustn't be surprised now when there are strange things happening in your simulation run..."10:52
dangergrrlbut there are infinite universes10:53
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dangergrrlthere is one where you are the leader of the reich10:53
Arcueid_I don't quite challenge solipsism, I'm actually pretty sure we live in meat sacks.10:53
dangergrrlmeat sacks are sucky10:54
Arcueid_The thing is... How do we, as a group, transcend current limitations? We're still a bunch of wild penned monkeys, in a sense.10:54
Arcueid_Can't argue with you there, but still, I'm all too dependant on my mine to complain about it.10:54
dangergrrlmine has a liver that could fail10:55
dangergrrli love beer10:55
dangergrrli with the help of obviously non engineers got my bike in maintenance mode10:56
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dangergrrlused a floor jack and lack of mathematical knowledge10:56
dangergrrlsorry i had republicans to deal with10:57
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dangergrrli am expected to go away soon10:57
dangergrrli need my n900 to be the linux pc i bought10:57
Arcueid_Got a keyboard and mouse?10:58
dangergrrlnot for n90010:59
Arcueid_It does fulfill that role, as long as you have some bluetooth human interface devices.10:59
dangergrrli am trying to port miro10:59
dangergrrli want democracy now10:59
dangergrrland rt.com10:59
dangergrrli am soviet11:00
Arcueid_ You're russian?11:00
Arcueid_Or from somewhere up there?11:01
Arcueid_I'm not too linux savvy. I'm also afraid I missed a joke. =x11:01
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dangergrrlan american societ11:02
dangergrrlit was a song in the 80s11:02
dangergrrlby a band named CCCP11:02
DocScrutinizerI want a unix cmd named like that ;-)11:02
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Termanagood morning11:03
dangergrrlbut we are the cccp11:03
dangergrrlhow do i stop the fighting in bahrain?11:03
dangergrrlthe suni deserve representation11:04
dangergrrland iraq only wants to become dine11:05
Arcueid_You don't.11:05
dangergrrl(din a long)11:05
Arcueid_You gather like-minded people,11:05
Arcueid_and then, go around challenging consensus.11:06
dangergrrli live with wrong minded people11:06
Arcueid_That's what you do.11:06
dangergrrlone of which i created11:06
Arcueid_I considered going to the middle east, you know, earning a few thousand bucks as a mercenary.11:06
dangergrrli doubt they would hire me11:07
Arcueid_I chickened out, mostly because... Well, that place is a bloody warzone. lol.11:07
dangergrrlyou know blackwater is native american owned11:07
dangergrrlthe biggest private army in the world11:07
Arcueid_Just read a bit on it.11:08
DocScrutinizerbiggest club of morons11:08
dangergrrlDocScrutinizer: you know this11:08
dangergrrlhelp me11:08
dangergrrli need some weed11:08
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dangergrrlso how do we get devices to the inteligensia and also to the masses?11:09
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Arcueid_Somebody please tell me that I wasn't klined for swearing.11:10
dangergrrlis blackwater mormon?11:10
dangergrrlthey let me say fuck11:11
Arcueid_Let's cover some moral ground...11:11
dangergrrlwhere do you get your morals11:11
Arcueid_Honestly, would any of you have a problem with killing people?11:11
dangergrrllet us start there11:11
dangergrrlof course11:12
dangergrrli could not kill george walker bush11:12
dangergrrlthough he is a war criminal11:12
dangergrrland guilty of crimes against humanity11:12
DocScrutinizerwell, I had a problem with killing a bird when I was 16. Never tried how that works for me with humans11:12
jaskahe belongs in an ape house.11:12
dangergrrli could not kill him11:13
dangergrrlyou win11:13
dangergrrlthat is lulz11:13
dangergrrli could put him in an ape house11:13
dangergrrlso how do i extract myself11:14
dangergrrlthe n900 would have my world with 2gb of ram11:14
dangergrrldual core 1.5 ghz a911:15
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Arcueid_Wait for the n950.11:15
jaskaand a hmm.. miniature atomic battery?:)11:15
Arcueid_Whatever the fuck's Elop planning on.11:15
dangergrrlmy sleepin like a baby days are over11:16
dangergrrli must leave here11:16
Arcueid_Honestly, as soon as I can code something, I'll code some app called "Let's Elop".11:16
Arcueid_It'll be a heterossexual grindr-like app.11:16
dangergrrlyou can not code?11:16
Arcueid_Humans? Been doing it since birth.11:17
Arcueid_Computers? Still too lazy to do it.11:17
dangergrrlmy first language is C11:17
Arcueid_Well, your platform is way ahead of mine11:18
Arcueid_MIne's still has a lot of trouble compiling simple code.11:18
Arcueid_You can still whip it into shape though.11:18
Arcueid_Take that however you like. lol11:18
dangergrrlmain(){char*msg="hello world¨; printf(msg) ;}11:20
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Arcueid_Wanna learn "hello world" in human?11:20
dangergrrli already know human11:21
Arcueid_Maybe, all of us know that...11:21
Arcueid_We just don't know that we know.11:21
dangergrrlunless you know where my mj went11:21
Arcueid_Sorry, I don't get the MJ.11:22
dangergrrlbetter than fermentation11:23
Arcueid_Oh, grass and whatnot.11:23
Arcueid_Nah, I don't know grass.11:23
Arcueid_Last time I tried making some sense out of it,11:24
dangergrrli had a wonderfully rolled fag of it11:24
Arcueid_I smoked some and went to a bar.11:24
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dangergrrlbad idea11:24
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dangergrrlsmaok and write code11:25
Arcueid_I still recall the distinct sensation of drinking beer, and... Listening to the beer echoing, as it hid my stomach.11:25
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Arcueid_I don't recall listening to anything else as it hit that area, but well, strange things happen.11:25
dangergrrlit gives you coprocessors11:25
Arcueid_I'd say, computer-wise, it just messes the instructions...11:26
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dangergrrldid you know frank zappa and george carlin are saved mormons?11:26
Arcueid_And given that humans have no error codes, well, you get what you get. lol.11:26
dangergrrlthe mormos church says you can save nonbelievers11:27
Arcueid_That's profanation.11:27
dangergrrlit is funny11:27
dangergrrllike roflmao11:28
Arcueid_They better not save me :~11:28
dangergrrland they claim alexander the great11:28
dangergrrlin heaven willing or not11:28
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dangergrrlwell if they grabbed dr sagan it might not suck11:29
* dangergrrl contemplates heaven with dr sagan11:30
Arcueid_What's mormon heaven like?11:30
dangergrrlcarl would tell them that it did not fit objective data11:30
dangergrrli dunno11:30
Arcueid_Maybe it doesn't suck.11:31
dangergrrlmaybe you get virgins and stuff like moslim heaven11:31
Arcueid_Heavy emphasis on the Maybe part.11:31
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dangergrrlthey think they get 13 virgins forever for killing infidel11:31
Arcueid_What's the big deal with virgins, anyway?11:32
dangergrrlhow do they stay virgin if the guy gets to have his way with them?11:32
Arcueid_They perform in bed, like...11:32
dangergrrli dunno11:32
Arcueid_Virgins, anyway.11:32
dangergrrli had one experience with one11:32
Arcueid_Maybe they're tight.11:32
dangergrrlbut i was too11:33
Arcueid_What was your experience like?11:33
dangergrrlyou don' t want to know11:33
Arcueid_Sounds nasty.11:34
dangergrrlit was ok11:34
dangergrrlZZ Top "pearl necklace"was playing loud in the next room11:34
Arcueid_Have yoy heard the translation thing on the "virgin" stuff?11:35
dangergrrli was in the closet floor11:35
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Arcueid_Pearl necklace...11:35
Arcueid_It does sound interesting.11:35
dangergrrlwith a girl who chased me around astroworld for hours11:35
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Arcueid_Was it nice?11:36
Arcueid_I've never had a same sex experience, so far.11:36
dangergrrli was listening to a band called "rock goddess"that day11:36
Arcueid_Not in bed. I've had a few good times with boys.11:37
Arcueid_But not down there.11:37
dangergrrlit was dissasociative11:37
Arcueid_How so?11:37
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dangergrrli imagined how she might feel and went with that11:38
dangergrrli had body parts i should not have11:38
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Arcueid_You know what I'm gonna ask next.11:39
Arcueid_Just go ahead. lol.11:39
dangergrrlwhat i am trans11:39
Arcueid_mtf, or ftm?11:39
dangergrrlmtf and maybe ftm too11:40
Arcueid_Well... While I'm all for that, psychologically,11:40
Arcueid_you know, bodies just don't quite work that way, usually.11:41
dangergrrlwell a penis is convenient if you want to unf girls or be a top in general11:41
dangergrrliḿ not a top11:42
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Arcueid_Things are tough in the homefront, shall we say.11:42
Arcueid_I don't quite care what people want to do with their bodies. I really don't.11:43
dangergrrlanyhow what can you compile?11:43
Arcueid_I actually have a few female online identities11:43
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Arcueid_Honestly? Computerwise, nothing.11:43
dangergrrli have an almost oerfect female body11:43
dangergrrlexcvept for a substantial thing in the middle11:44
Arcueid_I could spend all day talking to you about human psychology, but I'm not too much of a computer programmer. Not sure you ask about that, though. lol11:44
Arcueid_Well... Let's get down to it...11:44
Arcueid_I actually like the whole 4chan anonymous philosophy.11:45
dangergrrli want to go out with the cute blonde chick who digs my bike11:45
dangergrrlshe works at the gas station11:45
Arcueid_We should all be able to weave identities out of the thin air.11:46
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Arcueid_Hmmm... And what's keeping you?11:46
Arcueid_There's the whole PUA thing going on...11:46
Arcueid_Maybe you could adapt that "rooting" method to you situation...11:47
dangergrrluhm i would have to act really butch to ask her out11:47
Arcueid_Most people are as dumb as rock.11:47
dangergrrli mean i wear leather and ride a big bike11:47
dangergrrlbut i am very femme11:47
Arcueid_I'd let you do me, or honestly, I'd do you.11:48
Arcueid_I ride an old two stroke, btw.11:48
Arcueid_Rz 350.11:48
dangergrrlyou don't lmow me11:48
Arcueid_You're right, you just don't sound like a brick, though.11:48
Arcueid_I like non-brick people.11:49
dangergrrli am severely brain damaged11:49
dangergrrland tested to 14211:49
Arcueid_Not sure what does that mean.11:50
dangergrrlnot bad for losing head vs concrete11:50
dangergrrlit means 4 stddev above "normal"11:50
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dangergrrlbut i need safety11:51
dangergrrland i need girl power11:51
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dangergrrli ride a 6 cylinder gold wing 152011:51
Arcueid_Society relies on deviants to make it grow.11:52
Arcueid_Everywhere else, it relies on open market to work. But mostly, deviants are really the ones pushing it forward.11:52
dangergrrliam not a deviant just a rather vanilla girl who likes bikes and leather and code11:52
Arcueid_How fast can you goldwing go?11:52
dangergrrlonly like 130 or so11:53
dangergrrl0-60 it is fun11:53
Arcueid_Well, I like fast bikes which make blue smoke and require a shitton of maintenance, but still give me a hell of a ride.11:54
dangergrrli want to see the world11:54
Arcueid_Why don't you?11:54
ruskiebecause it costs money?11:54
Arcueid_Nuff said, can't argue with you there.11:54
Arcueid_Still, honestly, I guess that if you're born in the US or in Europe, you've got a free pass to the rest of the world...11:55
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dangergrrlnot true11:57
dangergrrlmy income is way more than nigerians11:57
dangergrrlbut less than retired europeans11:57
dangergrrllast night11:58
ruskiedepends on the EU country11:58
dangergrrli dreampt11:58
dangergrrlsomebody loved me11:58
ruskiearound here one doesn't really get all that money11:58
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dangergrrli doubt i could live reasonably in eu for 1400 us/mo11:58
ruskiehomeowning or renting?11:59
dangergrrli would rather live in stalingrad anyhow11:59
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dangergrrlsy petersburg11:59
dangergrrlor whatever it is called now11:59
ruskiethat's 980 eur/month... my net sallary is 1100 eur/month but I'm lucky that I'm a homeowner not a renter12:00
dangergrrlhow could i own a home in eur for that?12:00
ruskieyou inherit it from parents/grandparents/etc...12:00
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dangergrrlmy ancestors murdered native americans instead of leaving me a legacy12:01
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ruskieanyways lunch...12:02
Arcueid_Lunch sounds funny.12:02
Arcueid_It's late late night in here.12:02
Arcueid_Oh well. It's a big world.12:02
dangergrrli expect the germans to put me in my place soon12:03
Arcueid_While my ancestors didn't get the change to murder native americans,12:03
Arcueid_they sure had their way in... Domesticating african people, shall we say.12:04
Arcueid_I'm of english/spanish brazilian coast ancestry.12:04
jacekowskiwell, they failed to be honest12:04
dangergrrlwe are all guilty of crimes of ancestry12:04
Arcueid_In other worlds... Slavers.12:04
jacekowskiafrican people spread around the world12:04
jacekowskiand now keep living on benefits12:04
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Arcueid_Somewhat. Btw, hi there jacekowski. I think I know you from talk, and I like your contributions there.12:05
dangergrrland aryan people are often arrogant12:05
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Arcueid_In brazil we don't have a race card... There's stirring for a sex card, from gay people,12:06
dangergrrlif it had not been for kepler12:06
dangergrrldescartes was a weenie it turns out12:06
dangergrrlsays you can not understand culculus without god12:07
Arcueid_but mostly, gentlemen of color, shall we say, were mostly incorporated into society as second class citizens.12:07
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dangergrrlin brazil i would make good money in film12:07
dangergrrli would be a slave12:07
dangergrrlbut they would keep me drugged12:07
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jacekowskiwhere are you now?12:08
Arcueid_Not quite, I'm afraid.12:09
Arcueid_In soviet brazil, govermnent owns you.12:09
Arcueid_I'm sure the president's computer runs a pirated windows copy, but digital freedom is as far as we'll go.12:10
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Arcueid_Time for me to hit the sheats.12:13
Arcueid_Thanks for the good conversation, all, and hope to see you soon.12:13
Arcueid_Stay free.12:13
dangergrrlin texas12:14
dangergrrla captive of myself12:15
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chem|stwho likes capa MT?12:34
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e-yesLol topic12:41
e-yesDon't fix problems - just put your head to safeplace12:41
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e-yesIs there any alternative for users?12:43
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DocScrutinizere-yes loves to talk in riddles13:43
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MohammadAGDBus driving me nuts13:47
MohammadAGI need to connect method call sender=:1.32 -> serial=444 path=/com/nokia/HildonDesktop/AppMgr;; member=LaunchApplication13:47
MohammadAG   string "sociality"13:47
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MohammadAGmost pointless thread ever
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ham5has anyone made the ' my phone is on its face, reject all calls ' program?14:09
MohammadAGHe kinda reminds me of Portal 2's wheatley in chapter 414:09
MohammadAGham5, nope, not that I know of14:09
ham5dont even rember those bots names in that game letalone what chapter was what14:10
MohammadAGyou can't forget wheatley if you played through portal 2...14:10
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ham5im telling ya14:10
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merlin1991wheatley is burned into my head14:16
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keriomerlin1991: spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace14:21
merlin1991this is the part ... WHERE I KILL YOU14:21
ham5pluged him right in at the begging, but at the end you needed 3 cores ;\14:22
kerioham5: glados was already corrupted14:22
kerioshe had been dead for quite a while after all14:22
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kerio"Corrupted core, are you ready to start the procedure?" "What do you think?" "Interpreting vague answer as yes" "No no no no no no no no" "Stalemate detected"14:24
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BCMManyone know if fcamera is at all maintained?14:37
ham5cant check when the last update was?14:37
BCMMseptember '10, but maybe they haven't had any bug reports since then? :)14:38
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ham5yea or hes not developing14:39
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chem|stMohammadAG: those nitdroid people are puppets aren't they?14:43
chem|stehrm droids...14:44
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Corsacthose are not the droids you are looking for14:54
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Psiwhats the best way to get an audio line-in on the n900?  bluetooth soundcard?15:35
SpeedEvilIf you need stereo, it's the ony way15:36
SpeedEvilWell - USB audio and host-mode too.15:36
Psiwhat about mono?15:36
SpeedEvilIn principle, you can do mono in through a headset-like thing.15:36
Psiusing the mic channel15:37
SpeedEvilHowever, I don't know of any cabling to do this.15:37
SpeedEvilI suspect that the composite in cable can do this - but you would need to setup the hardware in unexpected-to-the-software ways.15:37
SpeedEvilAnd it may expect quite a low audio level.15:37
Psii guess ya could also streem it to the n900 over wifi15:37
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Psihow is the n900's bluetooth system, does it support most bluetooth devices a normal linux box does?15:38
SpeedEvilNot played with bluetooth much.15:41
Psithanks anyway15:41
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jacekowskiPsi: it's standard bluez stack15:47
jacekowskiPsi: with some features disabled15:48
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JaffaQML question: how do you change the title of the window from the package name?15:52
mtnbkrregarding bluetooth and my N900, I can not use it with my BT ear pice.  The sound is terrible, sometimes static, sometimes robot voice, and sometimes a little of both.   Same earpiece works crystal clear with other phones though. :(15:53
fluxI had a similar issue with one bluetooth. well, not that bad. I guess there are some subtle compatibility issues.15:54
JaffaAh,     viewer.setWindowTitle("Attitude");15:54
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jacekowskiwell, bluez isn't the best bluetooth stack around15:57
jacekowskibut it's only linux stack15:57
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fluxthe only foss one that is. at least ericsson used to have a stack for their chips.16:01
flux(but I know that it was discontinued, so bluez might just as well be the only one left :))16:02
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merlin1991X-Fade: ping16:18
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merlin1991X-Fade: I know you're here, so whatabout my cloak?16:21
chem|stmerlin1991: lol16:22
chem|st"I know you read me!"16:23
merlin1991chem|st: yea :P16:23
chem|stmerlin1991: what about your cloak?! what about my access list entry...16:23
chem|sta cloak would be nice to16:24
chem|stactualy I do not care much for both16:24
merlin1991chem|st: cloak is approved, all it needs is him to poke some freenode staff afaik16:24
merlin1991and I keep waiting for that :P16:25
edheldilwhat is cloak good for?16:25
merlin1991show that you belong to some group / company / whateveritsaysinyourcloak and cloaks your ip16:26
chem|stedheldil: your reverse-dns entry or IP get cloaked with some status in a group16:26
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chem|stedheldil: like 15:09 -!- Thierry_ (New Now Know How) [~chatzilla@nat/trolltech/x-rdaldwtqqxvhllaz] has joined #maemo15:09 -!- Thierry_ (New Now Know How) [~chatzilla@nat/trolltech/x-rdaldwtqqxvhllaz] has joined #maemo16:26
edheldilty. I thought there's more to it :)16:27
chem|stedheldil: nope16:27
PBeckanybody knows a good dictionary for english chinese - with pinyin and chinese symbols?16:27
Lynoureif your web presense is very strong, and you come from a static ip, don't trust the IP hiding, it's not doing you any good if someone hates you :)16:27
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edheldiland I do not realized they show in login/parting messages16:27
infobotedheldil meant: and I have not realized they show in login/parting messages16:27
PBeck <= i think that describes it very good16:27
chem|stLynoure: dcc request...16:27
chem|stPBeck: wrong channel for droid questions16:28
Lynourechem|st: is just one possible way.16:28
Lynourechem|st: or do you mean cloaked people can still be dcced somehow?16:29
PBeckchem|st: you have to read the complete question. I want only to show what i mean. I searching of course for maemo16:29
chem|stLynoure: the latter16:29
PBeckchem|st: but i think maemo is here not the right os ;) Symbian has here more potential ;)16:29
andre__PBeck, maybe MStarDict? Don't know if there's files around16:30
chem|stPBeck: what andre__ said...16:30
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PBeckandre__: i have not found any usefull dict file. Perhaps i am to stupid for searching. All link in the maemo forum goes into a 404 ;)16:31
andre__PBeck, ?16:31
andre__first hit on google.16:31
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PBeckandre__: yes of course, but now pinyin to english16:31
PBecki cant read the chinese characters ;)16:31
andre__PBeck, Pinyin is not a language, is it?16:32
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andre__I guess you want to look for a language instead of a script.16:32
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andre__plus there are clickable links on that website I just posted.16:32
PBeckandre__: pinyin is chinese in latin characters16:33
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chem|stPBeck: are you looking for chinese english or what?16:38
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chem|stPBeck: you are looking for a character map not a dictonary16:41
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PBeckchem|st: both - englisch - pinyin with chinese characters - for showing16:52
chem|stno idea16:52
chem|styou can make your own...16:53
PBeckchem|st: hanping has a collegue and its very useful ;) In china you can forget english ;)16:53
PBeckchem|st: yeah of course ;)16:54
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KhertanHello :17:11
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ruskieso apparently the N95 is completly useless in offline mode...18:02
ShadowJKare you surprised18:03
ruskienot really18:03
ruskiewell I guess I'll keep it as an alarm clock... that's the only real use it's meant for I guess...18:04
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ruskieand sadly the bluetooth gps magic doesn't seem to work as well18:06
ruskieatleast the n900 to n95 bt18:07
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ruskiemaybe if I spend some cash on an actualy bt gps it might actually be usable18:08
ShadowJKn900 has bugs accessing certain bluetooth gps receivers18:10
ShadowJKit drops speed and heading data, making ovi maps always point north and update slowly18:11
ruskiewell it's not for the n90018:11
ruskieit's for the n9518:11
ruskiehmm used nokia LD-3W for 30 eur18:12
ShadowJKdoesnt it have its own gps?18:12
ruskiewhich doesn't work in offline mode18:12
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ruskiethe n900 will get a fix like in a couple of seconds18:12
ruskiethe n95 won't even after a long time18:12
ShadowJKif it has been recently online18:12
ShadowJKor recently had a gps fix18:13
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ruskiewell put my sim in... now waiting to see if it'll get any lock...18:16
ruskieand enabled agps and network18:17
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dRbiGdo we have a c64 emulator for n900?18:22
dRbiGor do I have to port one18:22
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SpeedEvil - reveals null result for commodore, and c6418:23
peetahdRbiG: vice18:23
dRbiGi did check via the appmanager but i don't have extras/devel repos18:24
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dRbiGso i'm asking18:24
dRbiGvice, frodo what else18:24
dRbiGpeetah: .deb anywhere?18:24
peetahin one of the official repositories, don't remember which one though18:25
dRbiGokay, so i'll look first :)18:25
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peetahhere is the tmo thread:
dRbiGextras-devel, thank you!18:28
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chem|struskie: waited the 12 mins? if cache download is aborted in between it takes another 12 minutes...18:29
ruskiechem|st, probably left it untouched for 30 minutes18:29
chem|struskie: weird...18:29
ruskiebut atm letting it see what it can18:30
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chem|struskie: google says it depends on the software used, remember n900 ovi maps getting no connection when offline?!18:33
ruskienever used n900 ovi maps18:33
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ruskiebut atm trying to get the n95 in online mode to actually work... still no lock on gps18:34
chem|stwas one of the first n900 gps bug reports18:34
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ShadowJKuh, "no connection"?18:37
ShadowJKthe only thing they changed in ovi maps was to not switch gps immediately off when screen blanked18:38
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Trewasovi maps is hugely annoying without network connection, every time the screen has been blanked for a minute it asks if the I allow roaming data use (no) and then that internet connection failed, retry? (no)... and the same thing again a minute later18:42
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* ruskie gives up on n95 for anything but alarm clock use18:43
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chem|stShadowJK: that prolly was the first ^^18:47
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mr_jrt@ruskie Poor N95.18:49
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VenemoMohammadAG, most pointless thread ever is
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JaffaVenemo: +119:11
VenemoJaffa :)19:11
* SpeedEvil realises he would get karma for starting a brainstorm to add 'dislike' buttons to TMO.19:12
VenemoSpeedEvil, there is already such a brainstorm19:13
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SpeedEvilDamn! Foiled again.19:13
VenemoSpeedEvil, I think I saw it ~1 year ago, but nothing has came out of it19:13
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VenemoJaffa, btw I voted on "no" at that thread19:16
ShadowJKI want meta likes19:17
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ShadowJKlike, "I dislike the ramifications of the facts brought to light in this post"-dislike and a "This author made a good post about the dislikeful topic"19:18
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lcukShadowJK, then it gets fun19:19
lcuk"I liked the fact this guy liked the topic but for the wrong reasons :P19:19
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: you're no better than those that voted yes :-P19:22
VenemoDocScrutinizer, what do you mean? :P19:23
DocScrutinizerand btw at least stskeeps agreed on non-PR-bound binary updates, aiui19:23
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: voting on this poll is useless, no matter what you vote for19:23
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, indeed, but voting for "no" and seeing abill whining about it is more fun19:24
DocScrutinizerthe thread itself however is kinda fun and actually brought some small bits to a wider audience19:24
Venemosmall bits, for example?19:24
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DocScrutinizerstskeeps' notions on some bits - the long lawyer queue at maemo and the fact it's overloaded atm - the still widely common misconception of hw drivers being our biggest problem at maemo...19:26
SpeedEvilOpen gfx would be nice.19:27
DocScrutinizerwon't happen until hell freezing over19:27
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DocScrutinizerat least that's what I got from it19:28
Venemoopen gfx hasn't even happened on the desktop yet19:28
ChoomI'd say it's less likely to happen on the desktop19:29
DocScrutinizermaybe, but eternity / 2 is still a long time ;-)19:30
VenemoDocScrutinizer :D19:30
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lolcatHello, does symbian store texts in ram?19:35
DocScrutinizerfrom this PoV we didn't perform THAT bad at OM with glamo19:35
Venemololcat, how should we know19:35
DocScrutinizerit's just glamo performs terribly bad ;-P19:36
lolcatVenemo: Thihs is the channel with the highest density of Nokia Fanboys19:36
Venemololcat, I wouldn't say so19:36
Venemololcat, this channel is not about Symbian19:36
lolcatIt is about the mythical N90019:38
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styleis there working voice navigation software for maemo (nokia n900)19:43
lcukstyle, I sometimes phone mym mum to ask for directions (if that counts)19:43
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macmaNstyle: i havent found anything wothewhile yet19:44
macmaNhow do i load maps on linux19:44
merlin1991macmaN: you mean for the ovi maps?19:44
merlin1991hm need to find the link19:45
SpeedEvillcuk: Is your mom a service?19:45
merlin1991but it's just a .zip that you extract into the places dir19:45
merlin1991sry into the cities dir19:45
* SpeedEvil ponders qtlcuksmumdialer.19:45
styleovi maps on n900 + driving is quite dangerous combination19:46
merlin1991*hello, is there lcuks mum? i need some directions, can you help me?* :D19:46
macmaNmerlin1991: "where do i get map zips" is probably a tmo search question19:46
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edheldildoes not nav app download them on the fly?19:47
SpeedEviledheldil: yes - but it doesn't works o well if you have no network19:47
lcukedheldil, yes but when in new country, roaming costs prohibit many from wanting to do that19:48
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* merlin1991 still wants a proper mappreload for mappero19:48
SpeedEvilI just downloaded UK and EU map packs from the above site, in case it goes down.19:48
merlin1991I have the whole europe zip saved somewhere19:48
edheldilSpeedEvil:  at least for me, it does not work too well anyway :)19:52
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obcecadothanks for that link SpeedEvil :-]19:53
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macmaNok unzipped a bunch of N-Am maps20:01
macmaNlooks like theres something else you need to do for offline search20:01
merlin1991macmaN: search is online only20:01
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macmaNyep. im fricking jealous how my girl's old broken ass n79 is a kick ass gps navigator20:22
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krayonEvening.  I upgraded CSSU just then and got dep errors relating to libqt4-webkit.  when I try an apt-get -f install it reports that it can't due to also belonging to another pkg.  removing that pkg doesn't work however.20:35
krayonIs there a way I can force it to install over the top, and/or force it to remove the other pkg?20:36
MohammadAGwhat's the other pkg? cause it looks crappy at best20:37
krayonI just realised, I think it's because it's from OVI Store IIRC20:38
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krayonI was installing many browsers to find a good one :/20:38
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MohammadAGit shouldn't include libQtWebkit20:39
MohammadAGit should depend on it20:39
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MohammadAGif it includes it, it should have it in its own dir, not /usr/lib20:39
krayonYeah, agreed.20:40
krayonObviously :P  But they are @#$%20:40
MohammadAGI'd just remove it really, the only two good browsers are microB (built in one) and Opera20:40
krayonI tried with apt-get and FAM and it wasn't working but yeah I just used App Manager and it did.20:41
krayonNow apt-get -f install is working as expected.20:41
MohammadAGthe app manager ignores all errors :P20:41
krayonSo you can't ap-get remove OVI applications?20:41
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MohammadAGyou can20:42
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krayonIt didn't work when I tried it :/20:43
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krayonJust kept spitting out the "You might want to run 'apt-get -f install' to correct these:" stuff relating to libqt4-webkit.20:44
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krayonMohammadAG: If you're interested:
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krayonThanks anyway MohammadAG, after removing all was good :)20:52
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MohammadAGhmm that was actually weird...20:54
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GAN900New CSSU?21:20
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GAN900Well, there's one of Arjan's device announcements.21:24
lcukGAN900, is it a touch device?21:25
lcuk(for the hands on part)21:25
GAN900Nope, just more netbook bs.21:25
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SpeedEvilOooh! A net....21:27
SpeedEvilSo awesome.21:28
SpeedEvilbrb - have to yawn.21:28
SpeedEvil(though to be fair - I'm in favour of any non-MS OS on notebooks.21:28
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GAN900Me too21:28
GAN900But I'm bored with TN-sporting devices21:29
SpeedEvilI had a lenovo s10e with s.... the linux dist beginning with s that is not slackware.21:29
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SpeedEvilI'm also deeply depressed as to that announcement in other ways.21:29
SpeedEvilI have a nice ... 10yo? PII/300 netbook.21:29
SpeedEvil(though it has no wifi)21:30
SpeedEvilIt's 1.05Kg. Has 8 hour battery life (after I recelled it(would be 11 now with the best cells) a nice 10.1" 4:3 display.21:30
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SpeedEvilAnd also has a nice keyboard with a trackpoint.21:31
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NIN101the funny application manager is telling me that I should use the pcsuite to update to the newest cssu. m(21:38
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kerioMohammadAG: were you saying something about mouse+keyboard vs controller in FPSes some time ago?21:39
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_trinedoes anyone know how to correct this error .. unable to update 'linux kernel for power user (boot image)21:43
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JaffaMohammadAG: BTW, since you complained about Catorise slowing down apt/HAM - it now tracks invocations and changes to prevent unnecessary work21:47
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_trinewhen I try to installer the flasher on mu computer it seems to stop on a page which just has instructions you can scroll up and down22:55
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_trinewhat am I doing wrong22:55
_trineon my Ubuntu22:55
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_trineit says ok on the page but there is nothing to click on and it does not look like it installed the flasher22:56
MohammadAGkerio, gimme a controller and I can beat anyone using a mouse22:56
kerioat what game?22:56
MohammadAGJaffa, hmm, i forgot about that22:56
MohammadAGkerio, any22:57
_trineare you all too busy to help?22:58
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MohammadAGkerio, something cross platform, I like my PS323:02
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kerioMohammadAG: i thought the only game that supported cross-platform gaming was UT323:03
kerioand it kinda sucked23:03
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, wait for it, waaaait for it, bam
MohammadAGI have to say, I lol'd23:05
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DocScrutinizerwell, I was going WTF?! But actually, this thread has a bit of everything23:09
Sc0rpiusat least the tags are funny23:10
DocScrutinizerI's kinda like Monty Python's meaning of life23:10
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MohammadAGthis won't end well23:11
DocScrutinizerthis HAS ended23:11
DocScrutinizerI actually think this thread will eventually die from sudden starvation23:12
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DocScrutinizeror texrat killing it off23:12
DocScrutinizer"the source is *too* ugly, to disclose it" HELLLOOOOOO anybody AT HOME?23:13
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DocScrutinizerif anybody at Nokia is too embarrassed by his own code getting disclosed, I'm willing to offer a red papernose for free23:16
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DocScrutinizereither way, they always could claim it's not their code but some subcontractor's, and they're just not willing to look at it ;-D23:17
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DocScrutinizerno reason to keep it closed23:17
ChoomI worked on the yopy's kernel once (a korean PDA from 2003)23:18
ChoomI doubt the code could look any worse than what I found there23:18
DocScrutinizerI'm well aware of the nasty dark powers of lawyers23:18
DocScrutinizeryopy \o/23:18
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Choomfrom video drivers that had its registers' input hardcoded without even macros for human readability's sake to huge chunks of proprocessor-commented code becausee apparently the previous maintainers were not aware of version control systems, I believe I found a little of everything there23:21
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DocScrutinizeranother scenario: "Hi, I'm Nuerte Nooonononm of Nokia, I am the developer of maemo's foobar subsystem. I'd love to see it going FOSS, but you know folks, the powers that be :-S Bear with me, I can't talk about a lot of that stuff, but I'm more than happy to answer your questions as precisely as I can, as long as they are related to my stuff. You'll find me here once a months, at 13th, between 22:00 and 22:45 UTC"23:23
Choomfortunately, in the case of the video driver, I actually managed to find documentation and reimplement the driver, and the rest was rebuilt from scratch out of a vanilla 2.4.28 kernel with some patches from the arm project (as the arm tree was completely broken in the vanilla kernel back then) and lots of driver implementation and fixes23:23
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DocScrutinizerOM knew when they hired me they're not only getting a grumpy damn sharp-eye EE who did every shit you could think of, they also knew and accepted, actually appreciated that they're hiring a loyal (to them, but anyway) community community community guy23:27
DocScrutinizerNokia never got that catch on this way of thinking23:28
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kerioDocScrutinizer: it's clear now that nokia sucks bawls23:29
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DocScrutinizerso what the hell made them believe messing with linux would be a god thing to do fo them?23:29
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DocScrutinizerdidn't they anticipate a system that's like 40% closed, but marketed as being FOSS, would inevitably lead to community going to backfire?23:31
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DocScrutinizerI'd call that hijacking23:32
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DocScrutinizerbut I should pass the mic to SpeedEvil who's way more eloquent on maemo's dark eerie secrets23:34
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DocScrutinizer(community guy) finally there's been this:
Choomto be honest I wouldn't mind maemo the way it is so long as they kept developing it23:38
DocScrutinizerand it's not been easy to push OM there23:39
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DocScrutinizerI wouldn't even mind they dropping it as long as there's proper COMPLETE documantation, down to the .h23:40
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ChoomI don't really care about the sources, hardware documentation would do23:40
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DocScrutinizerwell, even that, yes. But sometimes hw ds are just... limited purpose. As a lot is in the knowhow to deal with the hw in a decent way, and that might be really really tricky sometimes (you don't want to reinvent how to implement openGL based on the hw specs of gfx card registers)23:44
DocScrutinizergoogle for "linux bsp"23:45
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DocScrutinizerit's not like Nokia had invented embedded23:45
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DocScrutinizerit's more like they were furiously commited to reinventing the wheel for some stuff and some procedures - well known established procedures23:47
alteregoWell, they have done a bit of good reinventing.23:49
alteregoBut also some awful reinventing23:49
alteregoWhat I find hilarious, is now Nokia have walked out of MeeGo, intel are dropping a load of things I kinda liked from Nokia,23:50
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alteregoLike tracker for instance.23:50
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DocScrutinizeryeah, ~nuke tracker23:50
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alteregoI was just thinking about what has happened after febuary 11th23:51
alteregoObviously Intel have taken over, they're now getting very heavy into tablets.23:51
alteregoDo you know why?23:51
DocScrutinizerIF my N900 experience is 19months 3 weeks now, then my bitching against tracker is since 19months 2 weeks 4 days23:51
SpeedEvilThey want to sell intel chips of course.23:51
alteregoBecause the tablet form factor (though pretty much doomed) is the smallest they can go with the battery capacity they require,23:52
alteregoBut tablets are also a good stepping stone down to handsets.23:52
alteregoIt's just a really stupid fad of a device.23:52
DocScrutinizeralterego: (stepping stone) thats debatable23:53
alteregoDocScrutinizer: okay, I'm trying to think of a better metaphor ..23:53
alteregoSafety net? Whilst waiting for an airlift? :)23:53
DocScrutinizereverybody telling me similar things, I'm not sold to it23:53
alteregoIn what respect?23:53
alteregoYou think 10" tablets are here to stay?23:53
alteregoI think they'll get smaller and smaller and then turn in to handsets.23:54
SpeedEvilFor some things, yes.23:54
DocScrutinizere.g. meego "we deal with powersaving later - now lets create a working system"23:54
DocScrutinizerprone to fail23:54
SpeedEvilUnder a 10" display is not comfortable to read large amounts of text on at arms length23:54
DocScrutinizerfirst build tablet UX, then clone handset UX from that - incl kernel and middleware: PRONE TO FAIL23:55
alteregoSpeedEvil: tell that to kindle owners.23:55
ChoomI think they have different uses23:55
Choompeople are using ipads as electronic notepads23:55
SpeedEvilalterego: By 'under' I mean 'lots under'23:55
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SpeedEvilA 4" screen forex23:55
alteregoYes, you're probably right there, which is why I quite like the idea of the kindle23:56
alteregoBut actual tablet computers ...23:56
alteregoMaybe when devices are just screens with an RF tranceiver and are basically thin clients.23:56
DocScrutinizeran embeeded system definitely is no lil lil itsybitsy teenyweeny PC, and no shrinked tablet23:56
alteregoWe all just buy new "screens" and all the power is in our portable handsets, or on the internet.23:57
SpeedEvilThe major problem with th at is that the screen needs the largest slice of the powr.23:58
SpeedEvilWhich makes it the sane place to pu tthe battery.23:58
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alteregoThere's a lot of Steven Elop accounts on twitter ...23:58
SpeedEvilI was idly wondering about a 'n900' - but where you could pull the screen off, and stick the base onto a larger screen.23:58
DocScrutinizera tablet is a shrinked PC, or a PC can run like a bloated tablet - a phone though is an entirely differnet thing23:59
alteregoSpeedEvil: to me that's HDMI :P23:59
alteregoDocScrutinizer: I'm not convinced23:59
DocScrutinizerand hardly anybody is geting that difference23:59
alteregoThe N900 is a shrunk tablet/PC23:59
alteregoIt's not a feature phone, and it's better than a "smart phone" ..23:59
DocScrutinizerno, it's not23:59
DocScrutinizershow me your PCs that can do zeroclock23:59

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