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| frozen_de | lcuk, i know, but i just want to load my n900 at my car radio, so I'm looking for one which is able to use the n900 as a usb device | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| BCMM | well, it's not really a special USB device | 00:01 |
| BCMM | in that respect | 00:01 |
| BCMM | but i don't think it will work brilliantly - the radio will have to traverse the entire filesystem looking for music files | 00:02 |
| BCMM | better to get a cheap usb stick and keep music only on that | 00:02 |
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| lcuk | BCMM, :) the entire MyDocs filesystem you mean | 00:05 |
| BCMM | that is an entire filesystem | 00:06 |
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| BCMM | though i did realise afterwards that it is not, perhaps, *the* filesystem | 00:06 |
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| lcuk | BCMM, it is indeed, but it is not / | 00:06 |
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| frozen_de | BCMM, I want to use the usb slot for my n900 cause of mobile maps, so it wouldn't possible to use a cheap usb stick | 00:07 |
| BCMM | oh, to keep it charged... | 00:07 |
| BCMM | well, imho, whatever radio you get, it's going to spend a really long time finding music after you connect it | 00:08 |
| BCMM | actually, there may be more complex ones available that can be told which directory to use now | 00:08 |
| BCMM | why do you want it to use USB like that? so you can use radio controls while driving? | 00:09 |
| frozen_de | ya | 00:09 |
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| jacekowski | mobile maps on maemo suck a lot | 00:23 |
| jacekowski | i've tried using it instead of tomtom for couple days | 00:24 |
| jacekowski | and nope, | 00:24 |
| jacekowski | i hate when it tells me to turn when i should be already turning and indicating at least couple seconds earlier | 00:24 |
| cityLights | mc_teo: I cant get the calenderdb change event using dbus-scripts | 00:25 |
| mc_teo | maybe i should mention how ive never used dbus-scripts | 00:26 |
| cityLights | am I suppose to see it? | 00:26 |
| cityLights | I used: /root/echo.sh * * * * and echo.sh prints out $@ | 00:26 |
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| Tronic | jacekowski: I would recommend either Nokia Maps hacked w/ speech navigation support or Mappero. | 00:29 |
| Tronic | Paid 80 € or so for the full version of Sygic Mobile Maps but I have only used it for a couple of weeks (about a year ago) because it is so crap. | 00:29 |
| Tronic | Sorry, 6 months ago. | 00:30 |
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| ShadowJK | There's something strange going on with sygic and pulseaudio/gstreamer/mafw/whatever | 00:35 |
| ShadowJK | I've seen the voice being lagged from the visual by several seconds | 00:36 |
| ShadowJK | But it only happens sometimes, and I'm not sure what triggers it | 00:36 |
| Tronic | With Nokia Maps it happens all the time. | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: you remember my bitching about pukeaudio? First thing I noticed PA is on my box was a delay of like days(!) between KDE putting a event sound and speakers playing it | 00:37 |
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| ShadowJK | I've had that happen too, but mostly that's been when other stuff has used alsa, and alsa is blocking instead of sharing :-) | 00:38 |
| Tronic | DocScrutinizer: Everything consistently playing late, or just at some moment all the sounds from the last few days playing? | 00:38 |
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| Tronic | The former I have never seen, the latter happens with ALSA and others too if the sound card is blocked (e.g. by an application using S/PDIF pass-through). | 00:39 |
| ShadowJK | seems like sygic is using a separate thread for sound anyway, and I've seen it getting stuck eating 100% CPU all the time, which made the fps drop and delayed visual instructions too, and prevented sygic from exiting cleanly | 00:40 |
| ShadowJK | That could be the library you need for pulseaudio spawning threads actually.. | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, yeah. In my case anyway it seems PA is blocking itself by exclusively opening ALSA | 00:42 |
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| ShadowJK | or something else has done it :-) | 00:43 |
| cityLights | can anyone here help me use dbus-scripts to hook calender db change event? | 00:43 |
| ShadowJK | it doesn't use dmix anyway, because the whole point of pulseaudio was to get away from dmix's bugs :-) | 00:44 |
| ShadowJK | bugs or "so hard to use right not even the people who wrote it can show how to use it" | 00:44 |
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| jacekowski | Tronic: nothing so far came close to normal tomtom | 00:48 |
| MohammadAG | is there a way to know what the architecture is from a shell? | 00:48 |
| cityLights | mc_teo: how can I replace os.path.exists with subprocess ? | 00:48 |
| * MohammadAG can't believe he forgot | 00:48 | |
| jacekowski | uname | 00:48 |
| cityLights | uname | 00:48 |
| jacekowski | uname -m | 00:48 |
| nox- | MohammadAG, uname -m | 00:48 |
| cityLights | /proc/cpuinfo | 00:48 |
| mc_teo | cityLights: why would you need to replace that? | 00:49 |
| cityLights | you asked me not to use os any more | 00:49 |
| cityLights | os.system | 00:50 |
| mc_teo | just "from os import path" if thats the only from os you used | 00:50 |
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| cityLights | MohammadAG: do you use dbus-scripts? | 00:50 |
| ShadowJK | btw, if you external bluetooth receiver, there's a bug in maemo that makes sygic and maps not work properly :P | 00:51 |
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| cityLights | guess I must go back to using gobject | 00:53 |
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| MohammadAG | cityLights, nope | 00:59 |
| MohammadAG | ty jacekowski & nomis | 00:59 |
| MohammadAG | nox-*, sorry nomis | 00:59 |
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| cityLights | wish shapeshifter was here..... | 01:14 |
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| * DocScrutinizer too | 01:39 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | OMFG | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | cityLights: MohammadAG: | 02:09 |
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| cityLights | what? | 02:09 |
| cityLights | just about to go sleeping | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | alarmed-backend.py | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | """Checks if tweakr is installed and returns the profiles""" | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | try: | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | print "a" | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | state = subprocess.Popen(['dpkg-query', '-l', 'tweakr'], | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | stdout=subprocess.PIPE, stderr=open(os.devnull, "w")).communicate( | 02:10 |
| cityLights | :-) | 02:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and the most funny thing: this is from my N900 real sourcecode of the one where it works - on garage.maemo.org alarmed v2.1.2 it's not like that | 02:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | now this *definitely* becomes an issue for CSSU | 02:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | seems tweakr is replacing the status menu applet for profile selection, as I can't imagine the original nokia one does same thing like 'my' alarmed | 02:14 |
| cityLights | good night | 02:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | yet it works to switch between custom profiles, while the dbus cmd profiled.listprofiles does NOT work | 02:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer | night cityLights | 02:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | Shapeshifter: PING | 02:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | Shapeshifter: what's up with alarmed and tweakr profiles? | 02:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | \o/ and maemo.org is frozen another time | 02:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mmmpff | 02:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | alarmed: Installed: 0.2.0-2 works with tweakr | 02:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | alarmed: Installed: 0.2.1-2 doesn't work with tweakr anymore | 02:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | friggin funny thing: | 02:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | ii maemo-applet-profiles 0.56+0m5 Profile control panel applet | 02:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | works with tweakr :-o | 02:41 |
| SpeedEvil | :) Latest update of mbarcode doesn't crash. | 02:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Now - I should really dosomething with it. | 02:41 |
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| mc_teo | so DocScrutinizer, i am going to upload that script now | 02:43 |
| mc_teo | with the voice commands for media player | 02:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | super | 02:44 |
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| SpeedEvil | mc_teo: Neat | 02:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | while I scratch my head what's wrong now of profiled and its dbus-interface, libprofile, maemo-applet-profiles, and alarmed-0.2.0-2 vs 0.2.1-2 | 02:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer | tweaker_profiles = subprocess.Popen( | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | ['gconftool-2', '--all-dirs', '/system/tweakr'], | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate( | 02:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | )[0].split("\n") | 02:48 |
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| ShadowJK | What's alarmed? If it's .py it can't be installed by default :) | 02:48 |
| mc_teo | can i upload .pys to the forums? | 02:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: this ^^^ code is what alarmed_backend.py is using """Checks if tweakr is installed and returns the profiles""" | 02:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: sure, you can attach arbitrary files I think | 02:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: and which obviously also is used by maemo-applet-profiles (a closed Nokia blob) | 02:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer | while def getAvailableProfiles(): return list(dbus.Interface(dbus.SessionBus().get_object('com.nokia.profiled', '/com/nokia/profiled'), 'com.nokia.profiled').get_profiles()) fails on alarmed_backend.py V0.2.1-2 | 02:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the corresponding dbus-send cmd (as found in phonecontrol) fails for me on 1.2 and 1.3cssu | 02:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so the dbus interface of profiled always been borked, while maemo-applet-profiles isn't using this and thus worked since beginning | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | and shapeshifter - for obscure bizarre reason - decided to switch from the working to the non-working method on his last update | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~xyawn | 02:55 |
| infobot | rumour has it, xyawn is nap | 02:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | rrrright | 02:55 |
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| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: was that a joke? | 02:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | errrr what? | 02:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | no joke anywhere, but what do you think could have been ? | 02:58 |
| mc_teo | about the arbutrary files | 02:58 |
| mc_teo | and no, they wont accept with .py extension | 02:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | then rename it to .py.txt | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | or zip it ;-P | 02:59 |
| mc_teo | ill zip it | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | haha | 02:59 |
| mc_teo | i need to include the dictionary too | 03:00 |
| MohammadAG | <DocScrutinizer> seems tweakr is replacing the status menu applet for profile selection, as I can't imagine the original nokia one does same thing like 'my' alarmed | 03:00 |
| MohammadAG | yes, you didn't know that? | 03:00 |
| MohammadAG | it's quite clear that it's not the stock applet :P | 03:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: not according to my dpkg -l | 03:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O | 03:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | mhm, makes sense | 03:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | friggin shit | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, usually, replacements are unclean | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | so it's probably just an mv old applet somewhere, mv new applet in place | 03:01 |
| MohammadAG | (most probably the .desktop files, that's why the applet loses the stock position) | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | we got that in CSSU? | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | nope | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | why? | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | what's that exactly? | 03:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | user profiles | 03:02 |
| MohammadAG | the applet? it's not a proper replacement | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm yeah | 03:03 |
| MohammadAG | you can't control vibra from tweakr's applet | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | the fsckng profiled is closed | 03:03 |
| MohammadAG | true, but the applet can be rewritten properly | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | friggin vibra control | 03:03 |
| MohammadAG | see maemo-statusmenu-fmtx | 03:03 |
| MohammadAG | profiled has an API | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I wonder why tweakr isn't using that for custom profiles then | 03:04 |
| MohammadAG | http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/libprofile/libprofile_8h.html | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | is there a compliant method to create and use custom profiles? | 03:05 |
| MohammadAG | apparently, no | 03:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's strange | 03:06 |
| MohammadAG | indeed, there's a get profiles function | 03:07 |
| MohammadAG | if it was to be hardcoded to general and silent, I don't see why that's needed | 03:07 |
| MohammadAG | I wonder if setting the current profile to a non existent one creates it... | 03:08 |
| MohammadAG | hmm, interesting | 03:09 |
| MohammadAG | Ubuntu 11.04 got some sort of kinetic scrolling in lists | 03:09 |
| MohammadAG | it's kind of neat | 03:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mhm | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | method call sender=:1.27 -> dest=com.nokia.profiled serial=431 path=/com/nokia/profiled; interface=com.nokia.profiled; member=set_value | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | string "general" | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | string "email.alert.volume" | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | string "65" | 03:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | is what tweakr applet replacement does | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's kinda ouch | 03:13 |
| BCMM | can anyone help with Qt/qmake packaging? i've done what i was told by http://wiki.maemo.org/Packaging_a_Qt_application#Creating_a_Maemo_package_from_a_qmake_project | 03:13 |
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| MohammadAG | I'd try set_value string:"foo" string:"email.alert.volume" string:"32" | 03:13 |
| MohammadAG | but seriously Nokia, 32 is an int | 03:13 |
| BCMM | and it all works find apart from having decided to call the binary src | 03:13 |
| BCMM | and install it as /usr/bin/src | 03:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL | 03:13 |
| MohammadAG | open the .pro file and look for target = | 03:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | touche | 03:14 |
| MohammadAG | or was it TARGET =... | 03:14 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: thanks | 03:14 |
| MohammadAG | yeah, TARGET = | 03:14 |
| BCMM | TARGET = nothing right now, i guess that's where the binary name should go? | 03:14 |
| MohammadAG | yeah | 03:15 |
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| mc_teo | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=998056#post998056 | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: will you pole profiled via dbus with a sharp stick, or should I? | 03:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | poke* | 03:16 |
| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=998056#post998056 | 03:16 |
| mc_teo | i may go now | 03:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: thanks mate | 03:16 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, what exactly are you looking for? | 03:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | custom profiles in profiled | 03:16 |
| mc_teo | night | 03:17 |
| MohammadAG | nice, PC rebooted on its own | 03:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | night mc_teo | 03:17 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, here's my theory on it, since it replaces the stock applet it doesn't actually create new profiles, but rather creates "templates" that are set to the profile "general" | 03:17 |
| MohammadAG | so in effect, your custom profiles are just a shortcut to set new stuff on general | 03:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: yes, that's exactly what tweakr does | 03:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm interested in generic custom profiles other than general and silent, in profiled | 03:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | as you already mentioned above, there might be ways to create new profiles via profiled dbus API | 03:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer | or find where friggin profiled stores those two profiles and add new ones the hard way there | 03:21 |
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| MohammadAG | except the C api doesn't detail it | 03:22 |
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| MohammadAG | and the C api generally talks to DBus | 03:22 |
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| MohammadAG | yeah, I'm looking into that actually | 03:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | I grepped gconf but nuttin | 03:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | strace profiled | 03:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe | 03:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | lsof | 03:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever | 03:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, apt suggested to me xyawn is a nap this time | 03:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ | 03:23 |
| MohammadAG | yeah, sec | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | >yawn> | 03:24 |
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| MohammadAG | LOL | 03:25 |
| MohammadAG | look in /etc/profiled | 03:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-P | 03:25 |
| MohammadAG | that wasn't too hard to guess | 03:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | MUHAHAHA | 03:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | now that's also not too hard to play with | 03:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | nuke tweakr | 03:26 |
| MohammadAG | so [datatype] simply defines types, probably so the UI can create progress bars etc | 03:27 |
| MohammadAG | fallback is probably defaults, in case your ringtone's deleted etc | 03:27 |
| MohammadAG | and silent is.. well, silent | 03:27 |
| MohammadAG | but where the f is general | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep, and datatypes are for dbus | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | at least | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | general is fallback | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd guess | 03:28 |
| MohammadAG | oh, yeah | 03:28 |
| MohammadAG | yeah maybe | 03:28 |
| MohammadAG | it's just that I wasn't looking at _my_ N900 | 03:28 |
| MohammadAG | so ringtone was Nokia Tune | 03:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | same here, so sth's fishy | 03:28 |
| MohammadAG | lemme grep some stuff | 03:29 |
| MohammadAG | profiled runs as user, so configs probably exist in ~ too | 03:30 |
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| MohammadAG | Nokia-N900:/home/user/.profiled# | 03:30 |
| MohammadAG | ha | 03:30 |
| MohammadAG | Nokia-N900:/home/user/.profiled# cat custom.ini | 03:30 |
| MohammadAG | # custom profile values | 03:30 |
| MohammadAG | [general] | 03:30 |
| MohammadAG | enjoy | 03:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 03:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer | duh, profiled runs as user?? | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | funny | 03:32 |
| * DocScrutinizer highfives MohammadAG | 03:33 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | ok, some funny stuff to play with, tomorrow (or later, after my nap) | 03:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | let's see if mission control says nap==tv, as usual | 03:35 |
| MohammadAG | HA | 03:35 |
| MohammadAG | Nokia-N900:/home/user/.profiled# dbus-send --type=method_call --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.profiled /com/nokia/profiled com.nokia.profiled.get_profiles | 03:35 |
| MohammadAG | method return sender=:1.109 -> dest=:1.108 reply_serial=2 | 03:35 |
| MohammadAG | array [ | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | BASTARD | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-P | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | is it truncated by you or by profiled? | 03:36 |
| BCMM | ok, so how does one increment the -# number? | 03:36 |
| BCMM | i mean, from 0.1-1 to 0.1-2? | 03:36 |
| MohammadAG | dch -i? | 03:36 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, profiled | 03:37 |
| MohammadAG | I just added another profile to the config files | 03:37 |
| MohammadAG | I have to admit I killed profiled, not sure if that's necessary | 03:37 |
| MohammadAG | so who wants to donate their gtk skills and rewrites two applets? | 03:37 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: thanks, thought that was *just* for editing the log | 03:38 |
| MohammadAG | yw BCMM, I used to edit that file manually when I first started packaging :P | 03:38 |
| * DocScrutinizer suggests a 'strings profiled' to find a few depressing hardcoded profile names | 03:38 | |
| MohammadAG | nope | 03:38 |
| MohammadAG | they're not hardcoded | 03:38 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: heh, are you why there's great big warnings in the wiki about doing that? | 03:39 |
| MohammadAG | the applet names are, I'm guessing they check if profile == "general" show "General" | 03:39 |
| MohammadAG | or what the translated string is | 03:39 |
| MohammadAG | BCMM, maybe :P | 03:39 |
| MohammadAG | though really, I always made sure all spaces are correct | 03:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | oooohnOOOOOES | 03:40 |
| MohammadAG | so yeah, who wants to rewrite the two applets? | 03:40 |
| BCMM | i hadn't realised that making a .deb involves automated building | 03:40 |
| MohammadAG | the one in the status menu, and the one in control panel | 03:40 |
| BCMM | i mean, i assumed you built stuff as normal, then put it in a deb | 03:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | the friggin translate shit, that doesn't find your custom profile and makes profiled blow chunks | 03:40 |
| BCMM | this is basically like writing a gentoo ebuild, only horrible :) | 03:40 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, if an applet is rewritten, it has to do that so as not to confuse users, but for new profiles, just show the raw string | 03:41 |
| MohammadAG | BCMM, ha, I pretty much thought the same about .sis files when I was a symbian user | 03:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah but probably that's not like that in profiled | 03:41 |
| BCMM | never used symbian or .sis files | 03:41 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, profiled behaves well | 03:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: try changing "silent" to solent" | 03:41 |
| MohammadAG | the UI doesn't | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | see what dbus tell you | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | or general to feneral | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ | 03:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | l8r | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | lulz | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | Nokia-N900:/home/user/.profiled# dbus-send --type=method_call --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.profiled /com/nokia/profiled com.nokia.profiled.get_profiles | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | method return sender=:1.138 -> dest=:1.137 reply_serial=2 | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | array [ | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | string "solent" | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | string "test" | 03:43 |
| MohammadAG | ] | 03:43 |
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| MohammadAG | custom.ini | 03:46 |
| MohammadAG | general | 03:46 |
| MohammadAG | silent | 03:46 |
| MohammadAG | you're right | 03:46 |
| MohammadAG | those are hardcoded | 03:46 |
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| MohammadAG | haha, stock applet segfaults if a custom profile's set | 03:49 |
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| MohammadAG | Nokia-N900:/home/user/.profiled# dbus-send --type=method_call --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.profiled /com/nokia/profiled com.nokia.profiled.get_profile | 03:49 |
| MohammadAG | method return sender=:1.144 -> dest=:1.155 reply_serial=2 | 03:49 |
| MohammadAG | string "test" | 03:49 |
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| dangergrrl | mapperio is pretty cool | 04:07 |
| dangergrrl | but kinda difficult to figure out when the help page is offline | 04:07 |
| dangergrrl | it's looking like it's on a dev's home pc, tracerouts drops at a atm-dsl gateway | 04:08 |
| dangergrrl | pyradio is still my favorite program when riding my motorcycle | 04:09 |
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| dangergrrl | amazingly on tmobile i have very good luck streaming pandora in central texas | 04:10 |
| dangergrrl | -i | 04:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: translate("test") -> segfault | 04:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | bet? | 04:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | also - regarding hardcoded - remember we had to kill -9 call-ui to keep it from writing back the ~/.osso/call-ui.ini without the USSD easteregg for *#-ena? | 04:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | that's an object that opens and reads *.ini in constructor, manages any changes in local cache, and writes back the current setting in destructor | 04:17 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, I can switch profiles successfully now | 04:17 |
| MohammadAG | (not with the UI of course) | 04:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 04:17 |
| MohammadAG | but I just set different ringtones to "test", and set that profile, and the ringtone sounded correctly | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | so the status applet is still borked | 04:18 |
| MohammadAG | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=998070&postcount=3335 | 04:18 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, the UI team is bored | 04:18 |
| MohammadAG | borked* | 04:18 |
| MohammadAG | or was, depending on where they are now | 04:18 |
| MohammadAG | btw, it doesn't segfault now, it only displays general and silent | 04:18 |
| MohammadAG | /etc is on a real filesystem right? that means we could simply change permissions on /etc/profiled in postinst, so we can write new profiles to it | 04:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yes, /etc is a plain simple fs | 04:20 |
| MohammadAG | I could make a quick rewrite of the UI, but I hate Qt for applets | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | patch the tweakr rewrite? | 04:21 |
| MohammadAG | nah, a bit messy imo | 04:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | the applet I meant | 04:21 |
| MohammadAG | I like Gtk, I just hate the process of having to make, transfer to device, touch the desktop dir etc so I could reload the applet | 04:21 |
| * MohammadAG ponders | 04:22 | |
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| MohammadAG | hmm, cool, I don't need to use dbus | 04:23 |
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| MohammadAG | this should actually be a quick rewrite | 04:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search[1][property]=name&org_maemo_packages_search[1][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[1][value]=profile&org_maemo_packages_search[2][property]=title&org_maemo_packages_search[2][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[2][value]=same | 04:24 |
| MohammadAG | gimme 5/10 mins | 04:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | you are one nasty hacker :-D | 04:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | bbl | 04:24 |
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| internetishard | remember those reports of remotely turning on the mic on cells for eavesdropping. I don't remember how they said it worked. I'm guessing that is a lot harder on platforms like maemo | 05:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's basically impossible | 05:07 |
| chx | tell us more | 05:08 |
| chx | this is interesting | 05:08 |
| chx | is it impossible on Maemo or in general? (i guess the later is impossible to answer.) | 05:08 |
| internetishard | DocScrutinizer they claimed firmware was 'uploaded' | 05:08 |
| internetishard | which might be possible on old cheap flip phones that did that | 05:08 |
| internetishard | But I don't see any equivalent exploits with smarter phones | 05:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | you need firmware support for that, and on maemo/n900 you need even system support | 05:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | and btw this will eat your battery exactly like a normal call | 05:10 |
| ShadowJK | More interesting would be if mameo support the PTC of 3G, and you hooked eaves-dropping into that | 05:11 |
| * ShadowJK wonders if that PTC thing is still being used or if walkie talkie manufacturers came out with digital designs | 05:13 | |
| ShadowJK | Or maybe the users in .fi got permission to migrate to TETRA | 05:14 |
| * ShadowJK shrugs | 05:14 | |
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| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, what does it say when you click the profiles button? | 05:17 |
| MohammadAG | actually, what does the button say, Accept/Save/Ok? | 05:17 |
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| MohammadAG | nvm, Done | 05:19 |
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| MohammadAG | hildon_dialog_new_with_buttons is deprecated and should not be used in newly-written code. | 05:30 |
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| MohammadAG | how old is the stock applet exactly... | 05:30 |
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| dangergrrl | hai | 05:37 |
| dangergrrl | i jknow i'm useless | 05:37 |
| dangergrrl | sorryu | 05:37 |
| dangergrrl | i am looking at ideas of marketing motojournalism | 05:37 |
| dangergrrl | my n900 seems really good for it | 05:38 |
| ShadowJK | What is motojournalism? | 05:39 |
| dangergrrl | writing about places to ridfe motorcycles | 05:39 |
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| dangergrrl | mappero saves gps tracks well | 05:40 |
| dangergrrl | camera geotags | 05:40 |
| dangergrrl | pen does handwritten notes | 05:40 |
| dangergrrl | i have written my grocery list in pen | 05:40 |
| ShadowJK | Never heard of "pen" before :-) | 05:41 |
| SpeedEvil | osm2go lets you enter details aboutthebuilt environment into crowdsourced maps | 05:41 |
| dangergrrl | pen is nice | 05:43 |
| dangergrrl | it's just a touchscreen doodle | 05:43 |
| dangergrrl | but it is nice for handwritten notes | 05:43 |
| dangergrrl | or grocery lists | 05:43 |
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| * SpeedEvil wants to get a barcodeything going with his supermarketrs API | 05:44 | |
| dangergrrl | the barcode thing is kinda neat | 05:44 |
| dangergrrl | it doesn't like supermarket codes much but you could help that | 05:45 |
| SpeedEvil | tesco.com - has a API available to search product by barcode, and enables you to add it to your basket | 05:45 |
| dangergrrl | does it work with mbarcode? | 05:49 |
| SpeedEvil | IF I wreote the correct plugin | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | wrote | 05:51 |
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| dangergrrl | duuit | 05:58 |
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| SpeedEvil | No time. | 06:01 |
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| pupnik | <3 n900 | 08:03 |
| pupnik | amazing how fast these computers are | 08:03 |
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| robbiethe1st | pupnik: See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWVJ-6l6sWM | 08:09 |
| robbiethe1st | Very awesome | 08:09 |
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| pupnik | ty robbiethe1st | 08:26 |
| pupnik | a bit more information please | 08:26 |
| pupnik | ahh ty | 08:26 |
| robbiethe1st | heh | 08:27 |
| pupnik | i love waking up in the morning | 08:31 |
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| pupnik | being grateful to be alive (pic) http://pinopsida.com/wp-content/themes/f8-lite/images/default_header.jpg | 09:11 |
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| pupnik | oh sweet, someone made a proper netstat package | 09:23 |
| pupnik | thank you maemo community | 09:23 |
| pupnik | n900 is so much more complete than n800 | 09:23 |
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| RST38h | Hey pupnik, you will love this one: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/27/how_goldman_sachs_created_the_food_crisis?page=0%2C0 | 09:29 |
| pupnik | will have to study that when brain is free thanks RST38h | 09:32 |
| pupnik | bookmarked | 09:32 |
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| Tronic | RST38h: Are you sure the article is worth reading? It apparently misses the biggest reason for skyrocketing food prices. | 09:44 |
| Tronic | That is, biofuels. | 09:45 |
| ruskie | biofuels should be abolished | 09:46 |
| * Tronic used find for various words, didn't read the article. | 09:46 | |
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| RST38h | Tronic: Well, it is from the Foreign Policy Journal, which raises probability that it is drivel | 09:49 |
| RST38h | Tronic: On the other hand, it views the problem from an unexpected angle, which makes it interesting | 09:50 |
| RST38h | And no, I am not buying the biofuel theory: there is just a small bunch of food stuffs usable for the biofuel. You will probably get better output by extractign methane from your own feces. | 09:51 |
| ruskie | RST38h, yes... small bunch but they get money for growing them sadly | 09:56 |
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| pupnik | i need to get kb/s or packets/s or anything by my game's process | 10:29 |
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| pupnik | i still think my icon smiley is awesome and historic and epic http://m.uploadedit.com/b92/1716300.jpg | 10:48 |
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| pupnik | i'm just a pixel-pushin fool http://m.uploadedit.com/b92/22910703.jpg | 10:48 |
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| keks-n | Hi | 10:50 |
| pupnik | hi | 10:51 |
| keks-n | Is there any tool that searches files in maemo packages? | 10:51 |
| keks-n | I'm looking for some header files but I don't know where they are | 10:51 |
| keks-n | Certainly I can write a script that will download all of them and build some kind of a database. But it will take time | 10:52 |
| pupnik | headers are in -dev packages | 10:52 |
| keks-n | Yep | 10:52 |
| keks-n | But in _which_ of them? | 10:53 |
| pupnik | what are you seeking? | 10:53 |
| keks-n | EGL/egl.h | 10:53 |
| pupnik | and you have typed that into google? | 10:54 |
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| pupnik | libegl ... | 10:55 |
| pupnik | keks-n the program you want is "apt-file" | 10:57 |
| pupnik | afaik | 10:57 |
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| keks-n | It's not installable | 11:01 |
| keks-n | OK, will install in a chroot environment and add maemo repo's | 11:02 |
| keks-n | Thanks | 11:02 |
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| shyoty | hi ppl, uploaded an update to a Pomodoro timer app few weeks ago, it's in testing and I'd appreciate if some of you would take the time to test it and if the quality looks ok give it thumbs up: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=988581#post988581 | 11:12 |
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| pupnik | chem|st: none of my replies show up on 'new posts' search results? | 11:16 |
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| Venemo_N900 | morning | 12:20 |
| Venemo_N900 | MohammadAG: have you read the stuff from the mailing list? | 12:20 |
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| Venemo_N900 | MohammadAG: seems that raster is not the only thing borked in qt 4.7.2 | 12:20 |
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| pupnik | Retro Computer magazine cover (funny, sfw) http://www.funiaste.net/obrazki/6092932df01e33182d5de645ffb8dd83/4dbd2915/2011/maj/01/61882286.jpg | 12:35 |
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| cityLights | MohammadAG: may private msg you? | 12:37 |
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| keks-n | Linux way: if your program doesn't work with system libraries, change the libraries | 12:44 |
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| keks-n | And now I'm compiling my own version of libgtk | 12:45 |
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| pupnik | keks-n: you know any SDL-opengl stuff? | 12:46 |
| keks-n | nope | 12:46 |
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| pupnik | my font is awesome | 13:05 |
| SpeedEvil | It looks like comic sans from here. | 13:06 |
| pupnik | i have to readjust all the widgets for it | 13:07 |
| pupnik | i can see why people want higher level tools for placing stuff on screen | 13:07 |
| pupnik | it's really a lot of work to make it look good | 13:07 |
| SpeedEvil | Is anyione aware of any open-source http compressors? | 13:08 |
| SpeedEvil | Not just stream compressors like ssh | 13:08 |
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| pupnik | gahh segfault | 13:09 |
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| cityLights | Is anyone here a nokia employee , or are all freelancers | 14:18 |
| cityLights | I am seeking work , and dont know what is going on | 14:18 |
| psycho_oreos | work within nokia? | 14:18 |
| pupnik | lol | 14:18 |
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| SpeedEvil | I think Nokia is notemployingnew people. | 14:20 |
| SpeedEvil | Unless maybe you're an ostritch who's programmed WP7 | 14:20 |
| psycho_oreos | and would kiss Stephen Elop's toes without hesitation | 14:21 |
| pupnik | elop is evil | 14:22 |
| cityLights | so all ppl here are coding in private companies on the meamo platform? | 14:23 |
| psycho_oreos | nah he's just another Microsoft's little puppet that the nokia's board of directors hired. | 14:23 |
| psycho_oreos | not all of us are coders, not all of us are working on maemo platform | 14:24 |
| pupnik | not good for finland | 14:24 |
| SpeedEvil | cityLights: Speaking personally, I'm unemployed due to disability, and have done documentation work on the wiki, as well as poking people to develop stuff. | 14:24 |
| SpeedEvil | And giving them links to useful resources. | 14:24 |
| psycho_oreos | it was what nokia's board of directors wanted. I'm sure they must have been bored out of their head to hire an ex-microsoft puppet | 14:25 |
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| frals | psycho_oreos: or maybe us investors forced them to pick someone from NA ;) | 14:36 |
| pupnik | the maemo people had the right idea | 14:37 |
| pupnik | they were on the right track | 14:37 |
| pupnik | but they got killed by politics | 14:37 |
| pupnik | evil people | 14:37 |
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| compengi | hello, can i set a phone lock when sim card it not inserted? | 14:42 |
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| robbiethe1st | Yea? | 14:43 |
| robbiethe1st | I'm pretty sure you can | 14:43 |
| compengi | okay, how | 14:44 |
| robbiethe1st | uh... same way as usual? | 14:44 |
| robbiethe1st | go into settingd | 14:44 |
| robbiethe1st | lock code | 14:44 |
| psycho_oreos | frals, I don't think there's any sort of excuse to make up for the mess that has been caused to this date. Afterall I'm sure the board of directors couldn't care less about investors telling them that we should hire someone from ex-microsoft | 14:45 |
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| compengi | robbiethe1st, automatical lock will lock the screen after the specified time interval, correct? | 14:46 |
| RST38h | You all assume that the goal is to continue making money developing phones | 14:47 |
| RST38h | Although it is most likely that the current goal is simply to sell the company off to Microsoft, either as a whole or just the tastiest pieces like IP portfolio | 14:48 |
| RST38h | This will still make investors money, probably more money than it would have made otherwise | 14:48 |
| RST38h | Will also be good for Microsoft which gets to peruse decades of research done by Nokia | 14:49 |
| RST38h | As to all the "open source activists", they are not making anyone money either way, so they can go suck a penguin instead. =) | 14:50 |
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| jacekowski | goal is to make money doing whatever makes money | 14:51 |
| RST38h | correct | 14:51 |
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| psycho_oreos | the brighter alternative would have been to ally with the underdog whose core is quite similar to that of the maemo platform. | 14:53 |
| RST38h | like webos?:) | 14:53 |
| psycho_oreos | android, webos pretty much got gobbled up by HP | 14:54 |
| frals | how the hell is android underdog in smartphones? | 14:55 |
| jacekowski | it is | 14:56 |
| psycho_oreos | I'm just comparatively putting android as underdog because it wasn't `the chosen one' by nokia | 14:56 |
| jacekowski | it's like almost linux but not really | 14:56 |
| psycho_oreos | instead nokia went for something that's nowhere near the likes of linux | 14:56 |
| * RST38h sighs | 14:56 | |
| psycho_oreos | furthermore ditching symbian | 14:56 |
| RST38h | thank you, captain Obvious | 14:57 |
| psycho_oreos | I can't see how symbian is, at least it wasn't the case with s60v3 with extensions that one would normally find on the likes of windows | 14:57 |
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| pupnik | funny how usb decides to charge sometimes | 15:17 |
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| pupnik | maybe i need more room humidity | 15:17 |
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| psycho_oreos | MohammadAG, didn't you play with N8 before? | 15:45 |
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| MohammadAG | psycho_oreos, yeah, my mom has one | 15:54 |
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| cityLights | MohammadAG: are you working for nokia? or are you freelacer? | 15:59 |
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| psycho_oreos | MohammadAG, just wondering if you happen to know that N8 has locked bootloader or not | 16:07 |
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| chem|st | pupnik: link pls | 16:16 |
| pupnik | chem|st: http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?searchid=10240305 | 16:22 |
| chem|st | pupnik: I cant use searchids | 16:22 |
| pupnik | http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?do=getnew | 16:22 |
| chem|st | pupnik: is it just newposts search? | 16:22 |
| pupnik | ahh it transforms to a searchid | 16:22 |
| chem|st | what is the threads name? | 16:23 |
| pupnik | ahh it was under development | 16:23 |
| chem|st | some folders do not show in new search | 16:23 |
| pupnik | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72011 | 16:23 |
| pupnik | that could be it | 16:23 |
| chem|st | pupnik: that does look like a game client | 16:24 |
| chem|st | what is this about in "less than 10 words" | 16:25 |
| pupnik | hack-n-slash | 16:25 |
| pupnik | diablo-like | 16:25 |
| chem|st | so a game | 16:25 |
| chem|st | for which OS? | 16:25 |
| pupnik | linux/win | 16:25 |
| pupnik | mac also iirc | 16:26 |
| chem|st | as OS/Platform devel is the wrong place... | 16:26 |
| chem|st | and this specific thread? | 16:26 |
| pupnik | oh | 16:26 |
| chem|st | is it a port for fremantle | 16:26 |
| pupnik | there's a Games > Development? | 16:26 |
| chem|st | nope | 16:27 |
| pupnik | sorry if it's in the wrong spot - can you move the thread to a more appropriate place? | 16:27 |
| chem|st | this kind of stuff goes to games | 16:27 |
| pupnik | ok can you move it? | 16:27 |
| chem|st | and gets a [devel] in front | 16:27 |
| chem|st | is it for fremantle then? | 16:27 |
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| pupnik | for n900 | 16:28 |
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| pupnik | no diablo version forthcoming right now | 16:28 |
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| chem|st | pupnik: for release make a new thread [announce] foobar released version x.x | 16:29 |
| chem|st | so devel and release info do not get messed up | 16:29 |
| chem|st | thread moved | 16:29 |
| pupnik | fanks | 16:30 |
| chem|st | pupnik: is it in extras devel yet | 16:30 |
| pupnik | not yet | 16:30 |
| chem|st | ok | 16:30 |
| chem|st | pupnik: where are you from btw | 16:30 |
| pupnik | germany | 16:31 |
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| chem|st | pupnik: more detailed? | 16:31 |
| pupnik | near frankfurt | 16:31 |
| chem|st | pupnik: more detailed? | 16:31 |
| chem|st | used to live in DA and HP | 16:31 |
| chem|st | and my girl is from bockenheim/ffm | 16:32 |
| pupnik | nice, i had one in bockenheim too | 16:32 |
| chem|st | good girls^^^ | 16:32 |
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| mc_teo | ~sphinx | 16:51 |
| infobot | Sphinx is a speaker-independent large vocabulary continuous speech recognizer under Berkeley's style license. http://sourceforge.net/projects/cmusphinx/ http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/cmusphinx.php http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/sphinx/Sphinx.html | 16:51 |
| mc_teo | ~pocketsphinx | 16:51 |
| mc_teo | has to think about that one | 16:52 |
| mc_teo | ~pocketsphinx | 16:52 |
| mc_teo | the amount of people on here | 16:53 |
| mc_teo | yet a lot of people never say anything | 16:53 |
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| mc_teo | has anyone tried that demo for speech recognition yet? | 16:54 |
| mc_teo | heh, ive 7 posts and 23 thanks | 16:54 |
| * SpeedEvil wishes dragon dictate or similar was available. | 16:54 | |
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| mc_teo | i envision this to work like so: | 16:56 |
| mc_teo | a single sphinx process | 16:56 |
| mc_teo | with a database of vocabuary, sorted by app | 16:56 |
| mc_teo | and a system specific vocab too | 16:57 |
| mc_teo | so on a button press, the microphone input is piped to sphinx | 16:57 |
| mc_teo | which raises something to make the system aware of this | 16:58 |
| mc_teo | i have no knowledge of underlying systems at all | 16:59 |
| mc_teo | therefore would dbus messages be suitable for this? | 16:59 |
| mc_teo | if i understand correctly, when a sms is recieved, a dbus message gets sent | 16:59 |
| SpeedEvil | It's complex. | 16:59 |
| SpeedEvil | What happens when an app is in the background? | 17:00 |
| SpeedEvil | Will it want to listen to events? | 17:00 |
| SpeedEvil | IOr only in the foreground? | 17:00 |
| mc_teo | only in foreground | 17:00 |
| SpeedEvil | There are signals that can tell you the foreground app - I forget what they are though. | 17:00 |
| mc_teo | only system specific will be system wide | 17:01 |
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| mc_teo | also, i was wondering, would having a second process catering for actually commanding and vocabuary be better? | 17:01 |
| mc_teo | as pocketsphinx is just the engine itself | 17:02 |
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| Venemo_N900 | good afternoon | 17:02 |
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| mc_teo | and the second process takes the output from sphinx, and deals with commands or that | 17:02 |
| mc_teo | and deals with rasing any dbus commands that need to be raised | 17:03 |
| mc_teo | dbus messages* | 17:03 |
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| Venemo_N900 | mc_teo: excuse me, I'm late in the conversation. what are you talking about? | 17:04 |
| mc_teo | and also accertains wheither % of match is high enough to be counted as a valid match | 17:04 |
| mc_teo | Venemo_N900: pocketsphinx | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Rpobably wise to seperate things into two processes use, so you can do system specivic stuff in one | 17:04 |
| Venemo_N900 | mc_teo: what's pocketsphinx? | 17:04 |
| chem|st | Venemo_N900: speechrecognition | 17:04 |
| mc_teo | and possibilities for system wide deployment | 17:05 |
| mc_teo | Venemo_N900: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=998056 | 17:05 |
| chem|st | ~tell Venemo_N900 about sphinx | 17:05 |
| mc_teo | atm, i am mainly using python purely for speed of development | 17:06 |
| mc_teo | as i am in last year of school, the pressure is on | 17:06 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 17:07 |
| SpeedEvil | Unrelated - http://www.youtube.com/user/cyriak#p/u/2/QNwCojCJ3-Q zombie kitten apocalypse. | 17:07 |
| Venemo_N900 | thanks | 17:07 |
| mc_teo | but during summer, i shall start using the auld c++ again | 17:07 |
| Venemo_N900 | mc_teo: sounds good stuff | 17:07 |
| mc_teo | to reduce memory footprint, i think this needs to be c++ | 17:08 |
| mc_teo | well just not python anyway | 17:08 |
| SpeedEvil | Depends. | 17:09 |
| SpeedEvil | If it's not using more than a few percent of sphynxes memory and CPU | 17:09 |
| SpeedEvil | ... | 17:09 |
| Venemo_N900 | python may be good for prototyping, then when it gets more serious you could make a rewrite in cpp | 17:09 |
| mc_teo | thats what i think will happen | 17:10 |
| mc_teo | anyway, i have to go now | 17:10 |
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| kerio | *rewrite the cpu-bound parts in c | 17:12 |
| kerio | and when i say "c" i mean "probably in cython" | 17:12 |
| SpeedEvil | rewrite the CPU-bound parts for DSP | 17:12 |
| Venemo_N900 | SpeedEvil: how can I make some code to run on the dsp? | 17:13 |
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| SpeedEvil | Venemo_N900: As I understnad, it's not really simple. | 17:13 |
| SpeedEvil | Unfortunately. | 17:13 |
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| Venemo_N900 | SpeedEvil: I once tried to investigate about it. found some packages related to the dsp, all of which are closed source. | 17:14 |
| Venemo_N900 | there's also a 'gstreamer-dsp' which is probably responsible for utilizing the video/audio decoding on the dsp | 17:15 |
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| SpeedEvil | stanford.edu/class/ee282/project_spr10/EE282_Spring10_Project.pdf | 17:16 |
| SpeedEvil | may be interesting | 17:16 |
| Venemo_N900 | will check it out when I get home. I'm on a pretty crappy 2G connection here. | 17:17 |
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| cityLights | Venemo_N900: can you help me with python and dbus? | 17:20 |
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| Venemo_N900 | cityLights: I've never written anything in python | 17:21 |
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| cityLights | As I got no replay, I tried reading the logs to understand if any of the members here earn a living by selling maemo related software | 17:22 |
| Venemo_N900 | most of the Maemo-related software are created by enthusiasts and hobbysts and is open source | 17:23 |
| cityLights | so most ppl here are students? | 17:23 |
| Venemo_N900 | there are some apps for sale in the ovi store for Maemo, but I doubt you could "earn a living" with it. | 17:23 |
| Venemo_N900 | if you however write apps with Qt, then you can target other platforms too | 17:24 |
| Venemo_N900 | so Qt is more likely to earn you a living | 17:24 |
| cityLights | is this why developers commonly ask here about qt? | 17:24 |
| cityLights | need I master QT for that reason? | 17:25 |
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| Venemo_N900 | depends on what your purpose is | 17:25 |
| zerojay | I don't think anyone in the history of Maemo has attempted to earn a living making software for it. | 17:25 |
| zerojay | At least, I hope not. | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | Venemo_N900: the DSP itself is well known afaik, incl cmdset etc | 17:25 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer: sure, but how do I actually make some code run on it? | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe, that's the magic | 17:26 |
| Venemo_N900 | and are you a good magician? | 17:26 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer: teach me to do magic :P | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | tbh I have no real clue. I guess TI has some tools, no idea if they are free or commercial | 17:27 |
| Venemo_N900 | well I 'guess' too, but I don't have any facts | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | the DSP core is a native TI 32xxxx I guess | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | spruf98 SoC user manual should give a starting point | 17:28 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway don't get fooled! the DSP is not always the better alternative to the ARM core | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's also consuming power, much power | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | so if it isn't for mere speed, the DSP isn't really interesting | 17:31 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 17:32 |
| Venemo_N900 | so what does the dsp do faster than the cpu? | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | multivector | 17:32 |
| Trizt | cityLights; why do you assume that most here would be students? | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's a damn MULADD machine | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | FFT etc | 17:33 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer, what does that mean? | 17:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | all sorts of matrix operations I think are DSP domain | 17:34 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 17:35 |
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| Venemo_N900 | about a week ago a guy at uni contacted me to help him with dsp programming | 17:35 |
| cityLights | Trizt: cause ppl need to earn a living, then work a lot and have less time to write open source code | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | as the name says: Digital Signal Processing | 17:36 |
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| cityLights | students have more free time to that extent | 17:36 |
| Venemo_N900 | I told him I've never in my life programmed a dsp... but then it turned out all he needs is some help with c? | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | Signal here is anything from audio streams to mpeg | 17:36 |
| derf | TI has enough free tools to get code working on the DSP. | 17:36 |
| derf | At least for the N900. | 17:37 |
| Trizt | cityLights; you can earn a living on opensoource, see those working for RedHat for example | 17:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but again, playback of mp3 is more lightweight on ARM than it is on DSP | 17:37 |
| Venemo_N900 | derf: do you know that for a fact? | 17:37 |
| derf | Venemo_N900: I've written and run code on the DSP, so yes. | 17:37 |
| Venemo_N900 | I would guess that the chip can decode mp3 in hardware. | 17:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it can, but that's a useless execise | 17:38 |
| Venemo_N900 | derf: that sounds good :) | 17:38 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer: why would it be useless? | 17:38 |
| Trizt | DocScrutinizer; but most of the cpu power to play mp3 is eaten by pulsaudio? | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | the DSP is less power economic than the ARM with smartreflex | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | I guess | 17:39 |
| Venemo_N900 | maybe so | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | DSP is only useful for mere speed of MP | 17:39 |
| Venemo_N900 | but the n900 doesn't have a working smartreflex anyway | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | to free the ARM to do more useful things same time | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | sleeping isn't a useful thing for ARM | 17:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | Venemo_N900: SR is a bunch of measures | 17:40 |
| Venemo_N900 | you can sort of turn on smartreflex and watch the sw fall apart | 17:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the part not working on N900 is the automatic core voltage adjustment | 17:40 |
| Venemo_N900 | there was a bugreport about this on bmo | 17:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are several other SR measures in chipdesign itself | 17:41 |
| Venemo_N900 | ah | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | like immediate shutdown of unused subblocks | 17:41 |
| Venemo_N900 | so what is the two things that you can turn on/off from the config? | 17:41 |
| cityLights | what is SR? what is smartreflex? | 17:42 |
| Venemo_N900 | cityLights: SR=SmartReflex | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | The SoC has a dedicated I2C connection to TWL4030 power management unit to automatically adjust the voltage regulators according to CPU clock etc. This doesn't work reliably on N900 | 17:43 |
| Venemo_N900 | cityLights: as DocScrutinizer said, it's a set of powersaving measures on the TI Soc | 17:43 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer: is it a software/driver issue or a hw fault? | 17:43 |
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| ShadowJK | probably both :) | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's probably a hw bug. But not much of a problem, as you always can control the voltage regulators in sw | 17:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I guess due to some layout- or buffering-design the regulators are too slow to keep CPU stable, on SR-auto | 17:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so you do this control in sw and a bit more relaxed, to keep the core voltage stable | 17:46 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 17:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | results in CPU core voltage kept at a bit higher values a few percent longer than on auto-SR | 17:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | over all impact is - my humble guess - <0.1% on battery life | 17:48 |
| Venemo_N900 | well, my experience is this: | 17:48 |
| Venemo_N900 | when I enabled it (whatever that two config entried do), I got about 20-30% improvement on battery | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | duh, that's rather amazing | 17:49 |
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| Venemo_N900 | however with that enabled, the software had a bad habbit of cashing when the cpu was under high load. | 17:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer | if you're interested, I'd like to tell you a story about a bug in Openmoko Freerunner hardware, that might somehow be similar to the SR bug | 17:50 |
| Venemo_N900 | this is pretty similar to what others have experienced, the only thing varying was the rate at wich the crashes occoured | 17:51 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer: sure, tell me :) | 17:51 |
| * ShadowJK notices no change in power consumption or crash rates when enabling SR | 17:51 | |
| DocScrutinizer | the calypso modem chip on FR has a power management Unit as well. It has some regulators, that have a voltage output and a sense input | 17:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | the design rules say you have to route your traces from output to the modem chip's VDD, and from there back to the sense input so the sense is seeing same voltage as modem | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | our layouter wasn't aware and shorted the output and input with a minimum length trace, and from there routed another trace to the modem | 17:54 |
| Venemo_N900 | ouchhh | 17:54 |
| ShadowJK | heh :-) | 17:54 |
| Venemo_N900 | I would have thought that such mistakes are found before a release | 17:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | the result was the modem got instable transitions from 32kHz oscillator to 16MHz oscillator whenever switching to and from sleep-4 state, which resulted in deep sleep losing connection to BTS | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | this is known as the #1024 bug | 17:55 |
| Venemo_N900 | heh | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | Venemo_N900: it isn't as it depends on what the BTS tells the modem to do for deep-sleep | 17:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | and it only happened at low temperatures ;-P | 17:56 |
| Venemo_N900 | hehh | 17:56 |
| Venemo_N900 | for the record, here is the maemo bug i was talking about: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7633 | 17:57 |
| povbot | Bug 7633: Enable SmartReflex on N900 by default | 17:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | took us like 2 years to find the bug | 17:57 |
| Venemo_N900 | noone could really tell what /sys/power/sr_vdd1_autocomp and /sys/power/sr_vdd2_autocomp do. | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-November/000822.html | 17:58 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, oh it looks correct in the schematics but buggy in layout? | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, not really, our brilliant chinese EE folks even placed a 0R in that long trace - to measure current, pffff - so it was obvious even in schematics, if you look closely | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | the fix been to increase a 10uF buffer to 20uF and that instability in sleep4 went away | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | the right fix of course would've been to have a correct layout and nuke that 0R | 18:02 |
| Venemo_N900 | hehe | 18:03 |
| frozen_de | someone here using his n900 as an usb device in his car for music? (which radio?) | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | I guess the voltage regulation + SR-auto has some faintly similar issue | 18:04 |
| Venemo_N900 | DocScrutinizer: but how could the layouter afford to be not aware of the design rules? | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | could aslo be too much buffering, so valtage stays too high when it should drop, which might even destroy CPU | 18:04 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | Venemo_N900: don'r ask, please don't ask | 18:05 |
| Venemo_N900 | okay :P | 18:05 |
| Venemo_N900 | well anyway, the decision was to not enable smartreflex on an N900 fw update - they are looking into it for "harmattan devices" | 18:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | as a westerner you're all the time buffled by the expertise of eastern EE. Sometimes brilliant, sometimes ignorant, you simply can't believe that's the same person | 18:07 |
| Venemo_N900 | heh | 18:07 |
| Venemo_N900 | how did the chinese get involved in OM? | 18:07 |
| ShadowJK | at that point in time I think Harmattan device was expected to have the next version of omap3 with more bugfixes and 1000MHz capable | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | Venemo_N900: FIC and so OM are located in Taipei | 18:08 |
| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 18:08 |
| Venemo_N900 | I thought OM was a European company. hm. | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | not at all | 18:08 |
| Venemo_N900 | okay then | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | the heads are all westerners | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | mostly USA and Germany, some GB | 18:09 |
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| Venemo_N900 | mhm | 18:09 |
| Venemo_N900 | anyway, I would suspect the linux driver as the point of failure for SR. maybe the same guy wrote the driver who did for the accelerometer for meego... :P | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | 90% of crew were Chinese | 18:09 |
| ShadowJK | any idea how that wikireader is working out for them? | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably not really great. Last time I've seen it under OEM brand at Conrad electronics here in germany | 18:10 |
| ShadowJK | I assume Conrad isn't massmarket? | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | it actually is | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | largest Electronics store in Germany | 18:11 |
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| ShadowJK | oh | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | but real electronics, not a white/brown ware store | 18:12 |
| ShadowJK | wtf, kindle is only $140 | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | the OEM is Medion | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/876441/MEDIONR-P89615-MD-83020-WIKIREADER | 18:14 |
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| Venemo_N900 | btw, a few days ago I've found the source code of Diablo's Hildon desktop | 18:15 |
| Venemo_N900 | it's orders of magnitude simpler than that of Fremantle's | 18:15 |
| RST38h | no shit | 18:16 |
| MohammadAG | wtf is status-menu-applet-profiles.c:35: error: expected ')' before '*' token | 18:16 |
| Venemo_N900 | MohammadAG: pastebin da code | 18:16 |
| MohammadAG | <psycho_oreos> MohammadAG, just wondering if you happen to know that N8 has locked bootloader or not | 18:16 |
| MohammadAG | I think there's an open bootloader | 18:17 |
| MohammadAG | cityLights, no, I don't work for Nokia | 18:17 |
| Venemo_N900 | I wouldn't bet on it. | 18:17 |
| ShadowJK | it'd probably be the first symbian phone with unlocked bootloader | 18:17 |
| RST38h | and E7 would then be the last symbian phone | 18:18 |
| MohammadAG | someone pointed me at it once, I didn't look into it since the N8's not that interesting | 18:18 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, they released X1 after E7 didn't they? | 18:19 |
| RST38h | Dunno, have not seen X1 | 18:19 |
| Venemo_N900 | it would be a lot more interesting if it had a better cpu and a better screen | 18:19 |
| RST38h | 128x160 display, probably not a Symbian phone | 18:19 |
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| ShadowJK | E6, X7, C7 :-) | 18:21 |
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| MohammadAG | Venemo_N900, nvm, it was a typo | 18:22 |
| RST38h | ah,X7 | 18:22 |
| ShadowJK | It's kind of depressing in the list of newest phones, and the first page doesn't fit all that much on my n900 screen, there are 3 different symbian versions | 18:22 |
| RST38h | indeed | 18:22 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Meanwhile, it is time to start figuring out where to jump to | 18:22 |
| * ShadowJK has extra N900 in a drawer :-) | 18:23 | |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: I am still hoping to get my hands onto an N950 and use it for a year or so, but afterwards... | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | (wikireader) I'd really like to know if they kept the hacker outfit I gave to wikireader - like footprint to retrofit miniUSB | 18:23 |
| ShadowJK | to use after this one either ejects usb port, or desolders its cellmodem | 18:23 |
| RST38h | resourceful! alterego's has given its ghos^H^H^Husb port yesterday. | 18:24 |
| derf | RST38h: You will become RST38h of Droid, of course. | 18:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | desolder cmt?? o.O | 18:24 |
| derf | Resistence is futile. | 18:24 |
| derf | *Resistance | 18:24 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, seems other people are getting the "crossed out sim icon" syndrome too | 18:25 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, here's to hoping the market will look completely different in a year. | 18:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | aah, k. brken solder points | 18:25 |
| ShadowJK | and their devices are progressing (er, regressing) the exact same way mine did | 18:25 |
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| RST38h | derf: yea, hopefully there will be some 5" droids around | 18:25 |
| RST38h | GAN: Nah, it is like a pool game, the balls cannot jump or teleport | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | quite possible. Reflow of cmt is partially hard | 18:26 |
| Venemo_N900 | RST38h: there are 5" droid tablets | 18:26 |
| derf | RST38h: The form factor of the Droid2 isn't that bad. | 18:26 |
| RST38h | Venemo: Streak only | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | and thermal stress at a max with those components | 18:26 |
| derf | The only problem is it runs Android. | 18:26 |
| RST38h | Venemo: But it has got old hw | 18:26 |
| Venemo_N900 | RST38h: archos has some | 18:26 |
| ShadowJK | At the end I could reliably crash cellmo by lightly pinching my n900, at the 'h' key on the keyboard | 18:26 |
| RST38h | derf: Need 4.3"+ display, also scared of Moto messing things up | 18:27 |
| Venemo_N900 | RST38h: Archos 5 and Archos 43 look pretty well | 18:27 |
| RST38h | Venemo: no cell phone there | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: definitely a bug that could get fixed with a hot air reflow gun | 18:27 |
| Venemo_N900 | RST38h: I thought we're talking about tablets | 18:27 |
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| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, Nokia Care replaced it with a new device | 18:27 |
| RST38h | Venemo: I am talking about a single device I can carry | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: sure | 18:27 |
| Venemo_N900 | RST38h: ah, sorry then | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: disassemble, reflow, test, reflow, test, assemble: 3h. Mainboard swap: 30min + ~60$ for the board | 18:29 |
| ShadowJK | they swapped entire device | 18:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 18:30 |
| RST38h | easier this way | 18:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so the diff between mainboard and device cost is lower than the time to disassembel and swap and reassemble | 18:30 |
| RST38h | no need to teach the drones how to handle the soldering iron | 18:30 |
| RST38h | also nullifies the probability that they will break something else while fixing your cellmo | 18:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 18:31 |
| Venemo_N900 | lol | 18:31 |
| Venemo_N900 | yeah, they replaced mine too when it was faulty | 18:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer | when my FPC broke, they actually replaced the FPC incl camera, LED, ALS and proxy sensor - and managed to get a small almost invisible dent into touchpad | 18:35 |
| ShadowJK | Venemo_N900, what happened to yours? | 18:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ...plus ruined the powerswitch | 18:37 |
| Venemo_N900 | ShadowJK: I accidentally dropped it on concrete | 18:38 |
| ShadowJK | atleast in fixing industrial automation the components are fist sized and cosmetics secondary :) | 18:39 |
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| Venemo_N900 | ShadowJK: it began to behave glitchy, to an extent where it wasn't able to stay turned on for more than 2 minutes. | 18:39 |
| ShadowJK | did screen turn white then fade out? | 18:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's the time where JTAG comes in | 18:40 |
| Venemo_N900 | ShadowJK: of course I "forgot" to tell them that I dropped it. according to DocScrutinizer, the device should have survived that kind of drop | 18:40 |
| Venemo_N900 | ShadowJK: nope, it didn't | 18:40 |
| ShadowJK | aw | 18:41 |
| SpeedEvil | I think I've dropped mine 4 times, and thrown it across the room twice. | 18:41 |
| ShadowJK | because that would have been easy to fix | 18:41 |
| Venemo_N900 | ShadowJK: it simply kept crashing, sometimes even displayed all kinds of visual artifacts. even a reflash didn't fix it | 18:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | broken solder joint | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | or - even worse - broken chip case | 18:42 |
| SpeedEvil | I wonder how many errors are due to internal component fractures | 18:42 |
| Venemo_N900 | or the NAND memory became borked... who knows? | 18:42 |
| MohammadAG | what's the button group that can only have one button clicked called? | 18:42 |
| ShadowJK | radio buttona? | 18:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | radio buttons | 18:43 |
| * ShadowJK suddenly realizes why it's called radio button | 18:43 | |
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| Venemo_N900 | MohammadAG: there are also "toggle buttons" | 18:43 |
| Venemo_N900 | ShadowJK: enlighten us :) | 18:43 |
| ShadowJK | I recently saw an "Empire" radio from 1943 :) | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: sure - mw, sw, fm | 18:44 |
| Venemo_N900 | :) | 18:44 |
| ShadowJK | The buttons that select frequency band cause other buttons to pop up | 18:44 |
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| ShadowJK | so that you only select one band :) | 18:44 |
| Venemo_N900 | ah, right | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | pff, youngsters | 18:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's been the way they built radios til the mid 80s | 18:46 |
| ShadowJK | I wonder where my radio is | 18:46 |
| pupnik | yetifoot's shoestore! http://i.imgur.com/urmGp.png | 18:46 |
| ShadowJK | I had it repaired about 5 times :( | 18:46 |
| MohammadAG | Venemo_N900, how does it know which buttons are in one group? | 18:47 |
| MohammadAG | in Qt, I just have to add radio buttons to the same widget | 18:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | my last radio had a 3pos switch for modulation "am/fm/ssb" and a digit keypad to enter the frequency from 100k to 108MHz | 18:48 |
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| * ShadowJK needs an antenna | 18:49 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | had quite a few | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | oh YOU need an antenna | 18:50 |
| Venemo_N900 | MohammadAG: possibly it works the same way. I've never used them really, so I dunno. | 18:50 |
| ShadowJK | I'm guessing a reel of CAT-5e isn't a good aerial even if unwinded | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: might work as any other wire | 18:51 |
| Venemo_N900 | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_mobile_uffda&num=1 ver interesting | 18:53 |
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| GAN900 | derf, seems to be a common ailment these days. :\ | 18:58 |
| derf | I mean, I guess it could be worse. | 19:01 |
| GAN900 | Could be Windows Phone 6 | 19:02 |
| GAN900 | But at least WP is upfront about how evil it is. | 19:02 |
| Venemo_N900 | GAN900: what do you mean? | 19:02 |
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| GAN900 | Android just sabotages Open Source. | 19:03 |
| GAN900 | While pretending to be its friend | 19:03 |
| Venemo_N900 | agreed | 19:03 |
| derf | I don't think anyone in the actual Open Source community is fooled. | 19:03 |
| GAN900 | While it's really about feeding Google's advertising machine with the blood of duped OS advocates. | 19:03 |
| Venemo_N900 | yea | 19:04 |
| GAN900 | derf, you weren't at LFSF last year. :P | 19:04 |
| Venemo_N900 | android is just horseshit | 19:04 |
| derf | GAN900: This is true. | 19:04 |
| GAN900 | derf, but even if those core people get it | 19:04 |
| GAN900 | The next generation of programmers and users don't | 19:04 |
| derf | Yeah. That is the part that worries me. | 19:04 |
| derf | The OS as it is right now will not exist in 20 years. | 19:05 |
| derf | *OS movement | 19:05 |
| GAN900 | It's not really OK to have open as one of your big selling points then delay the Honeycomb AOSP so your industry partners can capitalize on it. | 19:05 |
| GAN900 | Hopefully that'll be because it isn't necessary, rather than because it's been crushed. | 19:06 |
| RST38h | GAN: Honeycomb is apparently a rushed mess | 19:06 |
| derf | Everything Google does is a rushed mess. | 19:06 |
| RST38h | GAN: So, the reasons for not opening it might be purely technical | 19:06 |
| derf | RST38h: Don't bet on it. | 19:06 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, thus: Release Early, Release Often. ;) | 19:06 |
| Venemo_N900 | hehe | 19:06 |
| RST38h | GAN: This only works with free stuff released with no guarantees | 19:06 |
| derf | I'll give you one other good reason, though this is purely speculation: IP. | 19:06 |
| RST38h | derf: yea, bt *what* IP? | 19:07 |
| derf | What doesn't actually matter. | 19:07 |
| RST38h | it is the same damn android, just with some big screen enablements | 19:07 |
| derf | I think you're confusing patents with innovation. | 19:08 |
| GAN900 | It's actually significantly improved Ui-wise from 2.x | 19:08 |
| derf | They are in fact almost direct opposites. | 19:08 |
| Venemo_N900 | so. android's openness means that they give out the code sometimes... but as I understand, they don't follow an open development model | 19:09 |
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| RST38h | derf:Still, what patents make Honeycomb different from Gingerbread? | 19:11 |
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| cityLights | MohammadAG: o ok, why are you so keen on QT then? | 19:11 |
| RST38h | Venemo: They have got very low quality, messed up base OS layer | 19:11 |
| cityLights | I hope its not rude to ask | 19:11 |
| RST38h | Venemo: Cannot say much about the other stuff | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | It's easy to work with | 19:11 |
| derf | RST38h: I don't know. I can't see the source. | 19:11 |
| derf | I can tell you what does make a difference: a bunch of recent lawsuits. | 19:12 |
| RST38h | derf: True. | 19:13 |
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| GAN900 | "Delivered before 10:30 Monday" has to mean they'll show up 5 minutes after I've left for work. | 19:21 |
| Venemo_N900 | hehehe | 19:22 |
| pupnik | join up game right now for some nice freebees | 19:24 |
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| Roaziel | Hi. I have a quick question. Is there any way to set the Maemo default browser to go to the mobile versions of site instead of the full verion? | 19:28 |
| psycho_oreos | <MohammadAG> I think there's an open bootloader <--- thanks :) | 19:29 |
| kerio | change the user-agent to match some mobile browser | 19:29 |
| Roaziel | how do i do that? | 19:30 |
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| pupnik | yes, how? | 19:32 |
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| Venemo_N900 | there's an app for that in the repo | 19:35 |
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| pupnik | what's the good gcc to use for fremantle? i have gcc 4.2.1 here and i thought there was way better stuff now | 19:52 |
| jacekowski | working one is good one | 19:52 |
| Venemo_N900 | pupnik: scratchbox's gcc? | 19:52 |
| pupnik | yea | 19:53 |
| pupnik | gcc -v | 19:53 |
| Venemo_N900 | apt-cache on my n900 says 4.2 | 19:55 |
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| pupnik | hmm i see a 4.4.1 avail | 19:57 |
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| Venemo_N900 | try it | 19:57 |
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| MohammadAG | int profile_get_value_as_bool | 20:07 |
| MohammadAG | wow Nokia | 20:07 |
| MohammadAG | getting a value as bool returns an integer | 20:07 |
| Venemo_N900 | because there is no bool in c? | 20:07 |
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| Venemo_N900 | boolean in c is int... | 20:08 |
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| jacekowski | have anybody tried kubuntu mobile? | 20:08 |
| MohammadAG | well, the status menu's segfaulting on it | 20:09 |
| MohammadAG | int is_general_vibration_active = profile_get_value_as_bool ("general", "vibrating.alert.enabled"); <-- causes a segfault | 20:13 |
| Venemo_N900 | interesing | 20:13 |
| Venemo_N900 | MohammadAG, ping me about that when I get home | 20:14 |
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| MohammadAG | well, if anyone's interested https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/status-menu-applet-profiles/blobs/master/src/status-menu-applet-profiles.c | 20:25 |
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| pupnik | your new work MohammadAG ? | 20:27 |
| MohammadAG | pupnik, just a quick rewrite | 20:30 |
| MohammadAG | it's missing stuff obviously | 20:30 |
| pupnik | people who don't understand colors shouldn't make graphics | 20:34 |
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| GAN900 | Purple doesn't go with orange and black? | 20:37 |
| pupnik | :) in halloween candy maybe | 20:37 |
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| Venemo | ~seen thp | 20:47 |
| infobot | thp is currently on #meego. Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 1d 1h 43m 21s, last said: 'alterego: any screenshots of the new qml dialer ui?'. | 20:47 |
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| SpeedEvil | ~seen SpeedEvil | 20:50 |
| infobot | speedevil is currently on #maemo (15h 35m 2s) #openmoko (15h 35m 2s) #edev (15h 35m 2s). Has said a total of 31 messages. Is idling for 2s, last said: '~seen SpeedEvil'. | 20:50 |
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| pupnik | you guys know how to take SCREENSHOT?! | 20:51 |
| pupnik | i press screenshot icon, and it says "you have 20 s to press camera capture key to take screenshot" | 20:51 |
| pupnik | then i switch to my app and press camera capture key (fully or half way) | 20:51 |
| pupnik | and it SHOWS ME OPEN CAMERA COVER | 20:51 |
| SpeedEvil | I just left it alone | 20:52 |
| SpeedEvil | And it takes shot after 20s | 20:52 |
| pupnik | where does the shot get stored? | 20:53 |
| pupnik | i cannot find it | 20:53 |
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| arvut | hi, how do I grep multiply outputs without retyping the command and grepping new outputs? | 21:11 |
| arvut | for example, grep on both Cell and ESSID from the "iwlist scanning" command | 21:12 |
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| RST38h | grep -e ? | 21:12 |
| pupnik | grep -e foo -e bar | 21:12 |
| pupnik | gives lines containing either foo, bar, or both | 21:13 |
| arvut | ah, that might be it :) | 21:13 |
| arvut | thx | 21:13 |
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| arvut | I tried && and ; with a new grep. didnt even consider using flags :p | 21:14 |
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| pupnik | so here's my new 'readable' font... http://i.imgur.com/2K3yq.png | 21:15 |
| RST38h | omg poor n900 kbd | 21:15 |
| RST38h | too much playing | 21:15 |
| arvut | is there a maemo-chat channel btw? like #ubuntu-offtopic and #gentoo-chat | 21:15 |
| pupnik | that was done between Oct 2009 and April 2010 RST38h | 21:15 |
| GAN900 | arvut, this is it. ;) | 21:16 |
| arvut | GAN900: =) | 21:16 |
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| arvut | pupnik: wow, what have u done with that keyboard?! sandblasted it? | 21:17 |
| pupnik | lots of irc | 21:18 |
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| arvut | pupnik: ouch.. I suddenly very concerned | 21:20 |
| arvut | s/I/I'm/ | 21:20 |
| infobot | arvut meant: pupnik: ouch.. I'm suddenly very concerned | 21:20 |
| pupnik | !lart arvut | 21:20 |
| arvut | interesting.. a spellcorrection bot :) | 21:21 |
| pupnik | it's hard to decide UI stuff | 21:21 |
| pupnik | maybe i need a shaded border around the top line of icons | 21:22 |
| pupnik | to seperate them visually from the game map | 21:22 |
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| onen|openBmap | hi everyone | 21:24 |
| onen|openBmap | just got my n900 | 21:24 |
| onen|openBmap | and just flashed it like new | 21:24 |
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| onen|openBmap | any recommendations about "must have" apps? | 21:25 |
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| onen|openBmap | what about community SSU? | 21:25 |
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| cityLights | ~seen shapeshifter | 21:26 |
| infobot | shapeshifter is currently on #maemo (3d 5h 37m 58s). Has said a total of 17 messages. Is idling for 3d 3h 28m 3s, last said: 'cityLights: or you add specific names/ids to the events you create on the queue and then parse it but it seems bothersome'. | 21:26 |
| arvut | onen|openBmap: fennec 4 and cloud gps are pretty much must have apps | 21:28 |
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| keks-n | sup | 21:30 |
| keks-n | I've seen a bit of space between the kernel and the rootfs named "initfs" | 21:30 |
| keks-n | It looks like that it was supposed to be used for initramfs, right? | 21:31 |
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| arvut | pupnik: what game was that btw? I've considered installing an rpg on my n900. only wish I could install nwn since it runs on linux.. can't recompile it for this cpu tho :( | 21:31 |
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| pupnik | arvut: that's a port/hackup of the daimonin linux client | 21:34 |
| pupnik | i've added 1000 lines of comments so far :/ | 21:35 |
| onen|openBmap | arvut: thanks, will have a look | 21:35 |
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| pupnik | arvut: if you're interested, it should be 'possible to play' sometime soon... lots of work yet | 21:43 |
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| pupnik | wb nox- | 21:47 |
| nox- | moin pupnik, # | 21:48 |
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| arvut | pupnik: cool, I gotta try nwn again on linux tho. built a new desktop monster a few months ago and win7 is getting on my nerves | 22:04 |
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| arvut | is this 'daiminon' an mmo or just a regular online rpg? | 22:18 |
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| arvut | pupnik: that question was meant 4 u | 22:19 |
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| pupnik | arvut: it's concieved as a mmorpg but right now it's more of an in-development thing | 22:21 |
| pupnik | if you have time to try it out, take notes about what it is you like, and what you find unintuitive about the interface, please | 22:22 |
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| pupnik | heh when i hook up the charger, current consumption increases | 22:23 |
| arvut | pupnik: ah.. cuz im not really an mmo person. ive been addicted to nwn which is as you might know, an dnd 3.0 based non-mmo rpg | 22:23 |
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| pupnik | i respect bioware and i played nwn and nwn2 (for a bit) | 22:24 |
| pupnik | the ambient sounds were top-notch | 22:24 |
| arvut | the aurora toolset is paradise ^_^ | 22:25 |
| pupnik | it is easy to design new adventures? | 22:26 |
| pupnik | i'm not really an online rpg guy myself | 22:26 |
| pupnik | but this is a pretty fun hack-n-slash imo | 22:26 |
| pupnik | at least in its bare form it does some things nicely | 22:26 |
| pupnik | or you could fix up the client with me | 22:27 |
| arvut | yeah, most "modules" as they are called are singleplayer adventures which everyone can download if the makers upload them | 22:28 |
| pupnik | i bought one of gary gygax's first modules :) | 22:28 |
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| arvut | they are then often rated and sometimes added to the hall of fame on the nwvault | 22:29 |
| lolcat | Why won't the N900 boot with BL-4D? | 22:30 |
| jacekowski | because BME has no support for it | 22:30 |
| jacekowski | and thinks that there is no battery | 22:31 |
| lolcat | BME? | 22:31 |
| jacekowski | and rapuyama will not start for same reason | 22:31 |
| lolcat | It comes to the NOKIA screen, then dies | 22:31 |
| jacekowski | yeah | 22:31 |
| jacekowski | that's NOLO | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~bme | 22:31 |
| infobot | somebody said bme was http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME | 22:31 |
| jacekowski | BME is looking for specific batteries, anything different will result in shut down | 22:31 |
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| arvut | pupnik: wow, didnt even know he made mods for nwn | 22:32 |
| lolcat | Well, that sucks | 22:32 |
| lolcat | N97 mini can charge the BL-5J | 22:32 |
| pupnik | he called the first commercial adventures 'modules' afair | 22:33 |
| jacekowski | it can be hacked | 22:33 |
| jacekowski | to support other batteries | 22:33 |
| pupnik | 'slave pits of the undercity' was the one i had | 22:33 |
| jacekowski | but i'm not bored enough for that | 22:33 |
| lolcat | Well the BL-4D doesn'treally fit | 22:33 |
| pupnik | arvut: but this modules thing is very interesting to me | 22:33 |
| lolcat | But it has 1200 mAh | 22:33 |
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| jacekowski | what you can do is take it apart and change BSI resistor | 22:34 |
| pupnik | is there an open-source client for them? | 22:34 |
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| pupnik | and is the community large? is there good content for them? good stories/quests etc? | 22:34 |
| pupnik | jacekowski: i just managed to get it charging again :) | 22:34 |
| pupnik | sometimes it takes ages to find the right angle/pressure | 22:35 |
| jacekowski | try using normal usb cable | 22:35 |
| jacekowski | not charger | 22:35 |
| jacekowski | it tends to make better contact in my experience | 22:35 |
| jacekowski | plug used in nokia charger is inferior compared to one used in cable | 22:36 |
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| arvut | lolcat: what's this BL-4D then? | 22:38 |
| lolcat | arvut: THe battery for Nokia N97 mini | 22:38 |
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| lolcat | It is about 0,5cm to big | 22:39 |
| arvut | ah | 22:41 |
| lolcat | But my charger port is b0rked | 22:42 |
| lolcat | So I need to use the N97 mini to charge it | 22:42 |
| arvut | lolcat: heard of the mügen power batteries? | 22:42 |
| lolcat | So I wanted to have the battery in so I could recive calls. | 22:42 |
| lolcat | arvut: I am more in need of an external charger than that... | 22:42 |
| arvut | ouch.. how did u manage to break that? I can imagine the horror of losing usb.. | 22:43 |
| lolcat | I dropped both phones to the ground while drinking | 22:43 |
| lolcat | The N97 mini was ontop | 22:43 |
| lolcat | Probably didn't help | 22:43 |
| arvut | oh.. | 22:44 |
| lolcat | But I had it repaired about a month or two ago | 22:44 |
| lolcat | For a loose chargerport, so I guess I will tell them they did a poor job | 22:45 |
| arvut | I'm not into alcohol that much but I've dropped my phones (or dragged em down actually) into the floor with cables connected to them tho | 22:45 |
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| mc_teo | has anyone tried this yet: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=998056#post998056 | 22:46 |
| mc_teo | ? | 22:46 |
| arvut | lolcat: I somehow doubt that'll work as they might remember what they did if it was that recently. could be worth a try tho | 22:47 |
| lolcat | arvut: The receipt says: "Main mechanical error fixed" | 22:48 |
| mc_teo | yeah, something in my n900 broke a two months agi | 22:49 |
| mc_teo | ago*, so i sent it in to get repaired | 22:49 |
| mc_teo | they sent back the damage was due to a fall, so it voided my warrenty | 22:49 |
| mc_teo | n900 works for everything, except anything that require SIM card | 22:50 |
| mc_teo | so basically, just no sms, or phone calls | 22:50 |
| lolcat | Or actually it said: "Main fault serviced: MEchanical failure" | 22:50 |
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| lolcat | This will be its 3rd repair, so I am entitled to a refund | 22:51 |
| arvut | mc_teo: so it's basicly a tablet like the n800 and n810 now then? | 22:51 |
| mc_teo | basically | 22:51 |
| mc_teo | lolcat: did they include a photo? | 22:51 |
| lolcat | mc_teo: A photo of what? | 22:51 |
| mc_teo | they did for me, with a circle around whole photo | 22:51 |
| mc_teo | entitled, problem area outlined below | 22:52 |
| arvut | mc_teo: what's that pocket_sphinx btw? | 22:52 |
| mc_teo | ~tell arvut about pocketsphinx | 22:52 |
| mc_teo | ~tell arvut about sphinx | 22:52 |
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| mc_teo | so basically, speech recognition engine | 22:53 |
| lolcat | What is pocket_sphinx? | 22:53 |
| lolcat | ahh | 22:53 |
| lolcat | Boring | 22:53 |
| mc_teo | ? | 22:53 |
| arvut | cool, for voicecontrol and such? | 22:53 |
| lolcat | I have gotten two simcards now, so I can use the N900 for fun, and the N97 mini for calling/sms | 22:53 |
| arvut | the n900 works with dual sim tho doesnt it? | 22:54 |
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| lolcat | arvut: My issue is the N900 battery time, I have the same number on both phones. | 22:55 |
| mc_teo | arvut: yes for voice control | 22:55 |
| mc_teo | i included a simple media player controller | 22:55 |
| arvut | mc_teo: nice! =) | 22:55 |
| mc_teo | that has play/pause/resume/stop/next/previous commads | 22:56 |
| mc_teo | commands* | 22:56 |
| arvut | lolcat: cloned sim O.0 | 22:56 |
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| lolcat | arvut: Yep, it is awesome! I just have to charge the N900 first :P | 22:56 |
| mc_teo | i find the n900 has fairly poor battery life | 22:57 |
| arvut | so dual sim eats a lot more power then? | 22:58 |
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| mc_teo | i dont use even single sim, due my error | 22:58 |
| arvut | mc_teo: yeah, got a lot better with that flash in october last year tho | 22:58 |
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| mc_teo | which? | 23:01 |
| mc_teo | PR1.3? or 1.2? | 23:01 |
| mc_teo | i think for 1.2 it got worse | 23:01 |
| mc_teo | but i seemed to be the only one that had this | 23:01 |
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| arvut | meh.. accidently closed irssi :| | 23:08 |
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| arvut | anyway, I've considered ordering this: http://www.mugen-power-batteries.com/nokia/nokia-n900/mugen-power-nokia-n900-2400mah-extended-replacement-battery-with-battery-door.html | 23:09 |
| arvut | wow, thats some link :/ sorry | 23:09 |
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| shanttu | Hi. Where can I find the MicroB (desktop shortcut) icon and what is the name of it? usr/share/applications/hildon/? | 23:13 |
| ruskie | browser.desktop possibly? | 23:14 |
| ruskie | but that's not for the icon but for the shortcut | 23:15 |
| ruskie | you can get the filename from there | 23:15 |
| lolcat | What is the best way to backup contacts? | 23:15 |
| ruskie | backup app? syncml? | 23:15 |
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| lolcat | I had one problem with them | 23:16 |
| lolcat | the contacts, they dont work on my N97 mini, the symbian computer | 23:16 |
| Venemo | lolcat, try to backup with "ovi suite", which can then put the backup onto the n97 | 23:16 |
| lolcat | Venemo: Some of the problem was that the N900 only stored nickname, and not a real name | 23:18 |
| ruskie | erm??? | 23:18 |
| ShadowJK | I've used bluetooth for transfering contacts to and from my nokia e75 | 23:18 |
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| shanttu | ruskie: Thanks. | 23:19 |
| mc_teo | just dump the file, and use python to parse it to fit new format | 23:19 |
| mc_teo | export a contact fron N95 mini with full information to see what format they like | 23:19 |
| mc_teo | then you can change the export from n900 to match | 23:20 |
| lolcat | If I knew python that would be awesome | 23:20 |
| mc_teo | perl then? | 23:20 |
| mc_teo | even php could do it | 23:20 |
| mc_teo | heck, even bash or javascript | 23:20 |
| mc_teo | batch might be stretching it | 23:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh, vcard is the magic word | 23:24 |
| cityLights | does anyone use the kde pim ? | 23:24 |
| lolcat | DocScrutinizer: When the contacts got to the N97min they where nameless | 23:24 |
| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: i never knew you were joerg_rw on the forums | 23:25 |
| Venemo | conclusion: N97 is crap | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: too bad | 23:25 |
| ruskie | Venemo, then why mention it? | 23:25 |
| Venemo | mc_teo, all you would have needed to know is a /whois command | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: hope you're not too scared now | 23:25 |
| mc_teo | nope, should i be? | 23:26 |
| lolcat | Venemo: It has a longer batterylife | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | /whois DocScrutinizer | 23:26 |
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| Venemo | lolcat, and a crappy screen, and a crappy CPU, and a crappy keyboard. | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~ DocScrutinizer | 23:26 |
| infobot | i heard docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko | 23:26 |
| lolcat | Venemo: I am planning on using both | 23:27 |
| Venemo | it's your loss | 23:27 |
| cityLights | DocScrutinizer: I am waiting here for shapeshifter to return | 23:28 |
| cityLights | are there any other python developers here , that you think may help me with dbus? | 23:28 |
| Venemo | cityLights, are you using PyQt? | 23:29 |
| cityLights | not yet | 23:29 |
| Venemo | QtDBus is quite simple | 23:29 |
| cityLights | I need to add gui, may use that | 23:29 |
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| cityLights | ok, let me google an example\ | 23:29 |
| Venemo | cityLights, I could help you more if you worked with C++ | 23:30 |
| cityLights | I am starting to think most ppl here use qt | 23:30 |
| cityLights | when I finish the proto I will translate to c++ | 23:30 |
| ruskie | optimist | 23:30 |
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| keks-n | Guys | 23:30 |
| keks-n | Have anyone tried to compile MeeGo kernel? | 23:31 |
| Venemo | keks-n, ask in #meego | 23:31 |
| keks-n | oh | 23:31 |
| keks-n | I'm trying to make another bootmenu, lol | 23:32 |
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| cityLights | min, SO is asking me for cake | 23:32 |
| cityLights | and off I go | 23:32 |
| ruskie | keks-n, drop bootmenu | 23:32 |
| ruskie | just use uboot | 23:32 |
| keks-n | It flashes IN the kernel, right? | 23:32 |
| keks-n | I want to use 2 mb of mtd4 as initrd | 23:32 |
| keks-n | And that kexec in anything | 23:33 |
| keks-n | *than | 23:33 |
| keks-n | *then | 23:33 |
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| keks-n | Flashing something in the kernel seems dangerous and unstable | 23:34 |
| lolcat | Venemo: How is it a loss to have a backup phone when the battery runs out? | 23:34 |
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| Venemo | lolcat, it is a loss to have two phones. that's it. | 23:35 |
| ruskie | lol | 23:36 |
| ruskie | I have a lot more than 2 phones | 23:36 |
| ruskie | I do only use one though | 23:36 |
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| ruskie | but then I don't have battery issues with the N900 | 23:36 |
| ruskie | 4 days on a single charge works fine for my use case/needs | 23:36 |
| mc_teo | what? | 23:37 |
| mc_teo | without a single open application running | 23:37 |
| mc_teo | i get 36 hours, max | 23:37 |
| mc_teo | from a full charge | 23:37 |
| mc_teo | thats with nothing open | 23:37 |
| ruskie | quite a few widgets | 23:37 |
| mc_teo | i presume my two email accounts check frequently | 23:38 |
| ruskie | I have auto disconnect on all connections | 23:38 |
| mc_teo | no widget that update live | 23:38 |
| lolcat | ruskie: I had auto disconnect, but it bugged me | 23:38 |
| mc_teo | like no rss widget, or facebook or anything | 23:38 |
| ruskie | and I don't really need to have constant mail checks | 23:38 |
| ruskie | I can just ssh to my server and look at the emails | 23:38 |
| * lolcat wish he had ssh email | 23:39 | |
| lolcat | I should use ruskies remove scrip | 23:39 |
| lolcat | t | 23:39 |
| lolcat | or the list | 23:39 |
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| lolcat | But without a charger it is still pretty useless | 23:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | keks-n: nonsense, there's nothing wrong with uBoot. Nolo has a fixed addr where it fetches the ram img to start, usually there's linux kernel at that location. UBoot guy has placed uBoot there and shifted kernel some kb offset backwards, but the kernel itself stays untouched | 23:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: shut down your GPRS account | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | then check again | 23:41 |
| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: i have no sim card | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh | 23:41 |
| mc_teo | hence no gprs account | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | then you definitely got some issue | 23:41 |
| mc_teo | i think so too | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | you should have a 48h standby easily | 23:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | unless you messed up WLAN settings | 23:42 |
| keks-n | >>UBoot guy has placed uBoot there and shifted kernel some kb offset backwards, but the kernel itself stays untouched | 23:42 |
| keks-n | Looks like a dirty hack | 23:42 |
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| lolcat | Bwah, I can't call myself even while having a twin sim. | 23:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | not as dirty as e.g. multiboot | 23:42 |
| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: i didnt edit anything in advanced | 23:42 |
| mc_teo | even have power saving on full | 23:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: strange | 23:43 |
| ruskie | are you using the power kernel? | 23:43 |
| mc_teo | nope | 23:43 |
| mc_teo | left a post on forums about it ages ago | 23:43 |
| lolcat | ruskie: But 4 days of battery sounds insane | 23:43 |
| mc_teo | left a copy of my ps list | 23:43 |
| ruskie | lolcat, how so? | 23:44 |
| lolcat | I couldn't do that unless I didn't want to call anyone | 23:44 |
| ruskie | well I generally don't call people | 23:44 |
| ruskie | nor do people really call me that much | 23:44 |
| lolcat | Text? | 23:44 |
| ruskie | not a lot as well | 23:44 |
| lolcat | I have gotten 106 texts the last 2/3 days. | 23:45 |
| ruskie | email, jabber, irc are my primary comms channels | 23:45 |
| lolcat | N900 doesn't last 4 days on irc | 23:45 |
| ruskie | and none of those apps actually runs on my n900... I just ssh into my server and reattach to the tmux sessions... | 23:45 |
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| lolcat | I use screen | 23:46 |
| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60664 | 23:46 |
| ruskie | modest is useless for email | 23:46 |
| mc_teo | ^ +1 | 23:46 |
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| lolcat | But still, if I use IRC for 8 houres, the N900 is dead. | 23:46 |
| ruskie | as said... ssh thourgh... | 23:46 |
| ruskie | and I don't need it 8h/day | 23:46 |
| lolcat | No, but even 4 a day will kill it in two | 23:46 |
| ruskie | if I do need access it's usually in the 1-2h window | 23:46 |
| lolcat | ruskie: I use irc through ssh + screen | 23:47 |
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| lolcat | Still it uses a lot of battery | 23:47 |
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| ruskie | well I also don't use this every day | 23:48 |
| lolcat | And me using two phones, and having the N97 mini as more of a phone, and the N900 more like a internet device. | 23:48 |
| ruskie | it's rare that I'm anywhere without a computer and keyboard access | 23:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | mc_teo: use top/htop to see if there are processes runaway | 23:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | use powertop to see general system activity | 23:49 |
| lolcat | ruskie: I tend to leave my home once a day to do stuff | 23:49 |
| ruskie | usually when going shopping or something along those lines that I have some spare time | 23:49 |
| mc_teo | DocScrutinizer: modest, and browser atm | 23:49 |
| ruskie | I go to work... but I have a computer there and ssh to the server | 23:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powertop | 23:50 |
| lolcat | I use it less when I drive, I can't drive while using it as intensivly as when I take the sub | 23:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption | 23:51 |
| ruskie | you shouldn't really be using it while driving | 23:51 |
| lolcat | ruskie: it has a keyboard | 23:52 |
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| ruskie | it has a miniature keyboard | 23:52 |
| ruskie | that tends to be annoying to use without looking at it | 23:52 |
| lolcat | A full size keyboard would be impractical | 23:53 |
| lolcat | ruskie: really? I use it without looking at it | 23:53 |
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| lolcat | ruskie: Once I a while I look at it, normaly with special characters and such | 23:54 |
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